Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3491

 1                           Wednesday, 3 October 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Before we ask the witness to be escorted into the courtroom, a

11     few matters.

12             There was a confusion about a video yesterday, Mr. Groome, which

13     was supposed to have been provided but the wrong one was provided.

14             Or Mr. Traldi.  What is it?  Was it P287?

15             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour, P287.  And my understanding is

16     we've provided it -- a CD to the Registry.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So that now has been done.

18             There is one other matter.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Since it is now there, I think yesterday it

21     was MFI'd and therefore P287 is now admitted into evidence.

22             The -- I'd like to briefly deal with Witness RM081.

23             On the 27th of September the Prosecution filed a motion

24     requesting that the Chamber augment the protective measures currently in

25     place for Witness RM081 and order that his testimony in the present case

Page 3492

 1     be received with voice distortion.

 2             On the 28th of September, 2012, the witness informed the Chamber

 3     in court that it did not oppose the augmentation of the protective

 4     measures.

 5             The Chamber notes that in the Krajisnik and Karadzic trials,

 6     Witness RM081 testified under pseudonym and with image distortion.

 7     Pursuant to Rule 75(F) of the Rules, the protective measures ordered in

 8     the first proceedings remain in force in the present proceedings.  As no

 9     Chamber remains seized of the first proceedings and the Chamber is

10     currently seized of the second proceedings within the meaning of

11     Rule 75(G) of the Rules, it finds that it has jurisdiction to rule on the

12     motion.

13             In addition, considering that the only Judge from the first

14     proceedings who remains a Judge is the Presiding Judge in the present

15     case, the Chamber finds that the requirement of Rule 75(I) of the Rules

16     is satisfied.  Further, in light of the declaration of the Prosecution's

17     investigator confirming the witness's consent to the requested

18     augmentation, the Chamber is of the view that the requirement of

19     Rule 75(J) of the Rules is also satisfied.

20             Having regard to the Prosecution's submissions that Witness RM081

21     feared to be recognised and noting that the Defence does not object the

22     augmentation of the protective measures, the Chamber hereby grants the

23     Prosecution's motion and orders that Witness RM081's testimony be

24     received with -- apart from the already -- apart from the protective

25     measures already in place to be received also with voice distortion.

Page 3493

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well I misspoke that the witness informed the

 3     Chamber, it was the Defence that informed the Chamber that it did not

 4     oppose the augment ation of the protective measures.

 5             Could the witness - not that witness, but could the present

 6     witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 7             Mr. Traldi.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.  While he is being brought in two

 9     quick matters.  First as you suggested yesterday, I'd seek leave to

10     replace Exhibit P290, which is the one with a small set of handwritten

11     numbers towards the top, with a clean unmarked version.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Leave is granted.

13             MR. TRALDI:  And second, I misspoke yesterday at transcript

14     page 3461, line 9, it appears where I referred to paragraph 4 in

15     Exhibit P283, it should be 24.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  A few lines further down you refer to

17     paragraph 24 so that is clear.  And the page references which was page 5

18     was okay.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Where I said that the replacement of P290, that

22     leave was granted, I'd forgotten that I should instruct the Registry to

23     replace the translation, the English version, by the new version that has

24     been provided by the Prosecution.  That is, without handwritten numbers

25     on it.

Page 3494

 1             Good morning, Mr. Sejmenovic.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sejmenovic, I would like to remind you that

 4     you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the

 5     beginning of your testimony, and Mr. Lukic will now continue his

 6     cross-examination.

 7             May I again invite you all not to speak at the same time and to

 8     make a pause between question and but also between answer and question.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11                           WITNESS:  MEVLUDIN SEJMENOVIC

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Sejmenovic.

15        A.   Good morning.  Thank you.  How are you?

16        Q.   I'm fine.  Can we concentrate and go through the questions

17     quickly.

18        A.   Please go ahead.  I will do my best to give you as short answers

19     as possible.

20        Q.   Yesterday I asked you about the new

21     reorganisation [as interpreted] that was requested by the SDS and after

22     that we moved on and concluded that the SDS had left or walked out of the

23     parliament --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Am I right, you're interpreted Mr. Lukic as saying

25     "the new reorganisation."  Was it the reorganisation or was it

Page 3495

 1     regionalisation?

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] New regionalisation, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Then we'll just correct it on the script,

 4     regionalisation.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   You were a deputy in the parliament.  The constitution of

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina, was it possible for it to be used on its own or was

 8     it obligatory for that to be used within the constitution of Yugoslavia?

 9        A.   The constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina pertained to

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  However, part of the constitution that regulated

11     relations with Yugoslavia were referred to the Yugoslav constitution.

12        Q.   At that time, were you aware that each of the three constituent

13     nations - Muslims, Croats, and Serbs - had right to veto some decisions

14     in order to protect their national interests?

15        A.   Yes.  They were granted the right to veto but only within the

16     jurisdictions where this veto can be applied.  It did not apply to any

17     decisions whatsoever.

18        Q.   Was one of those rights the right to use veto if somebody tried

19     to secede the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina from Yugoslavia?

20        A.   That was a major constitutional issue and unfortunately I'm not

21     able to discuss these matters.

22        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have in e-court

24     Mr. Sejmenovic's statement, P283.  P283.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Page and paragraph Mr. Lukic.

Page 3496

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need paragraph 9.

 2        Q.   Mr. Sejmenovic, in this paragraph, you say that the SDS pursued

 3     and implemented the same policy in Prijedor.  It sought to divide

 4     Prijedor into two municipalities with institutions divided along ethnic

 5     lines.

 6             In other municipalities, at the same time, the SDS separated

 7     their own municipalities.  For example, the municipality of Kljuc.  Did

 8     you know anything about that?

 9        A.   Separated from what?  I am not aware of the municipality of Kljuc

10     being separated from any -- anything.  I'm not aware of any municipality

11     being separated.

12        Q.   Is it the fact that SDA had power in Kljuc?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Do you know - it does not necessarily mean that it's true - that

15     SDA established the municipality of Kljuc parallel to the municipality of

16     Kljuc where the SDS was?

17        A.   I don't think that is correct.  There may have been some attempts

18     to do that, but I don't think that any legislature underpinned such a

19     development and that would be the only proper way.

20        Q.   No separation was conducted at the level of the republic.

21        A.   Yes.  And any separation was actually illegal from the point of

22     view of the rule of law.

23        Q.   Would you agree with me that at the time not only did Yugoslavia

24     break up but the same happened with Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25        A.   Bosnia-Herzegovina was not disintegrating.  As far as I know the

Page 3497

 1     parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina was fully functional, whereas the

 2     Yugoslav parliament did not exist anymore.  Also functioning was the

 3     Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina and, on the other hand, Yugoslavia had

 4     no longer the Presidency that it had had earlier.  However, it was

 5     functioning with difficulties but there were -- because there were some

 6     political structures that were obstructing the whole process.

 7        Q.   The Assembly and the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina were

 8     functioning without Serb representatives?

 9        A.   Without only one part of representatives of the Serbian people.

10     Serb representatives were still present in the parliament but they were

11     not from the SDS, but, rather, from some other parties.  In all fairness

12     I have to say that the majority of deputies were members of the SDS, but

13     not all of them.

14        Q.   How many Serb representatives were in the parliament that were

15     voted by the people to become members, or were people simply installed

16     into the parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

17        A.   We shall never find out who voted for whom because the ballot was

18     a secret one.  All we know is the fact that in the parliament there were

19     certain percentages of deputies from all parties and from all

20     nationalities.  This is the only thing that we know exactly.  There were

21     manipulations and speculations about who voted for whom, but as I said

22     since this procedure is free and secret we would never know.  I repeat,

23     there were still Serb representatives in the parliament but to a lesser

24     percentage because the majority of deputies were from the SDS and they

25     left the parliament.

Page 3498

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I think that we are going to discuss this issue with

 2     some other witnesses as well.  That's it for now.  Now, let's look at

 3     paragraph 10.  You say that:

 4             "The SDS rejected attempts at interethnic co-operation and SDA

 5     proposals for the formation of interethnic patrols."

 6             At the time, were actually any joint police and army patrols set

 7     up?

 8        A.   Paragraph 10 relates to the events in Prijedor municipality.

 9     It's not specifically said in this paragraph but it was said in the talks

10     that we previously had, and we dealt with some very specific situations.

11        Q.   All right.  Now paragraph 11.  You say that:

12             "The Prijedor SDS created a shadow government with parallel

13     bodies."

14             That happened in February 1992 when Prijedor SDS demanded the

15     dissolution of the existing municipal assembly and the calling of an

16     early election.  SDS was in power, together with SDA, in Prijedor at the

17     time; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes, it is.

19        Q.   So the party who is in power is seeking new elections.

20        A.   Yes, that is correct.  And they provided a specific reason for

21     that.

22        Q.   The reasons that I managed to find out in the minutes of the

23     assembly meeting chaired by Mr. Cehajic was, in fact, to obstruct the

24     functioning of the municipality, and he insisted that the chief of police

25     be appointed from among the Serbs.  Are you aware of any other reasons

Page 3499

 1     that they had cited?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.  The SDS construed this in their own way, this

 3     proposal.  Basically this proposal was prompted by their wish to have

 4     specific positions in the municipality filled by the SDS regardless of

 5     the agreed division of power and the solutions offered in that sense,

 6     whether they do it themselves or whether the SDA do it, and to offer the

 7     other side to take half of it, but that was eventually found to be

 8     unacceptable by the SDS.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that in the course of talks and

10     negotiations at the republic of -- at the level of the republic, it was

11     agreed that chief of police would be someone from the SDS?

12        A.   As far as I know there was no such agreement, particularly not at

13     the level of the republic.  They may have put forward such a request but

14     there was no agreement.

15        Q.   Do you know that the chief proposed by the SDS, that this

16     proposal was rejected in Sarajevo.  Two appointments were rejected which

17     prolonged the whole procedure whilst there were no real reasons for the

18     rejections?

19        A.   The SDA and the SDS had a very firm agreement concerning the

20     division of posts.  The SDA honoured this agreement to the very end which

21     cannot be said about the SDS because they wanted to have the police and

22     the public auditing service.  Finally they agreed to a 50-50 decision but

23     they continued to dispute it.

24        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to hear what the other side will have to

25     sigh about this, but that's going to happen in the future.  Now let's

Page 3500

 1     talk about the events preceding the takeover of power on -- in Prijedor,

 2     and we shall start with paragraph 13?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you referring to future evidence to be

 4     presented?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No one here is supposed to present evidence on

 7     one side or another side.  We only hear evidence, witnesses who will

 8     testify about the truth and not about being member of one side or a

 9     member of any other side.

10             Just for you to know.  Apart from that, it was not necessary to

11     announce to this witness what evidence you will present, perhaps

12     challenging what this witness said.  That's irrelevant for the witness to

13     know and the Chamber will find out.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Only one clarification:  I

16     didn't mean the other side of the proceeding but the other side of those

17     negotiations.  I though the members of SDS --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  My -- as a matter of fact, the other side.

19     Yes.  If the other side of the negotiations tells us the truth, then for

20     both sides we hear the same evidence.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   You say after Croatia demanded independence the Serb population

24     in Croatia mutinied at the support of authorities in Belgrade, and these

25     regions were, after that, under the control of Serbs, and the army was

Page 3501

 1     under the control of Serbs.  Could we also agree that issue, too, is a

 2     legal one and that you did not do any research into it?

 3        A.   I did not do any research.  I know about it as much as I followed

 4     events and listened to the media and various political positions

 5     expressed.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now paragraph 14, please.  You say:

 7             "Serb authorities in Serbia began broadcasting propaganda in

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina and blocking the broadcast of non-Serb programmes.

 9     Some TV repeaters were taken control of."

10             Which non-Serb programmes were blocked by the authorities in

11     Serbia?

12        A.   We in Bosnia-Herzegovina were used to watching the TV programme

13     broadcast by the TV Bosnia-Herzegovina.  However, we were able also to

14     watch programmes from other republics.  There was a TV study called Jutel

15     which was an anti-war one, and their programme was intensively broadcast

16     on BHTV.  Then the army, with the support of the police as far as I know,

17     took over and seized the main TV transmitter in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

18     called Lisina, and from that moment on in Bosnian Krajina you could not

19     watch BHTV anymore and solely TV Serbia was broadcast.  And sometime

20     later also the local Serbian TV.  And there you could see programmes --

21        Q.   Let me tell you what I'm interested in.

22        A.   Please.

23        Q.   You say the Serb authorities in Serbia began broadcasting

24     propaganda and blocking the broadcast of non-Serb problems.  How were the

25     Serb authorities in Serbia able to block anything in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 3502

 1        A.   This statement summarizes all the events.

 2        Q.   You mean you could describe it in detail?

 3        A.   Of course.  I can tell you anything.  You just have to ask.

 4        Q.   Did Serb authorities in Serbia block the repeater in Krajina?

 5        A.   There are military authorities, police authorities, and civil --

 6     civilian authorities.  It's not the president of the parliament in Serbia

 7     who came to block this repeater but a general did, and somebody must have

 8     made the political decision to do that.

 9        Q.   Let me ask you:  At that time, did TV Sarajevo stop taking over

10     programmes from TV Belgrade?

11        A.   At the time when this TV repeater was blocked, or just before

12     that, we were able to watch on TV both Bosnian and Croatian programmes

13     and programmes from Serbia.

14        Q.   When was that?

15        A.   It's the beginning of the second half or towards the end of 1991.

16     I'm not really good at dates, and it's -- it was too long ago.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Apart from whether the level of detail of some of

18     the matters which are discussed assist the Chamber, one of the last

19     questions was:  When that TV repeater was blocked, or just before -- no.

20     That -- you were asked:

21             "At that time, did TV Sarajevo stop taking over programmes from

22     TV Belgrade?"

23             If you know, tell us; if you don't know, tell us as well.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I did not see any

25     particular change in the programming of TV Sarajevo before that.  And I

Page 3503

 1     don't remember that it stopped taking over Belgrade programmes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if you put a question, it's always good

 3     to get an answer to that question as well.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Sejmenovic, are you aware that armed units of the Territorial

 7     Defence of Kljuc which were fighting against Serb forces blew up the TV

 8     repeater in Ramici village?

 9        A.   I'm not aware of that and I don't know to what time-period you

10     are referring to.  It was certainly not the same time-period we discussed

11     earlier.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You're not aware of that.  That's an answer to the

13     question.  Please proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   At any time?  At any time.  Did you hear about it in 1991 or

16     1992.

17        A.   No, I did not.  I did not even hear of its existence because it

18     was insignificant.  The main repeater was at Lisina.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You did not hear about it.  That is an answer to the

20     question.  How important it was or may have been or whether you should

21     have known about its existence, that's not the question.  Please limit

22     your answers to what you are asked.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 3504

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Do you know that the SDA insisted that only SDA people be

 3     employed at TV Sarajevo?

 4        A.   That is not true.

 5        Q.   Even if there is documentation to support it?

 6        A.   Perhaps there is documentation, but I spent a lot of time there

 7     and I don't think that's true.

 8        Q.   Did you see that a security detail of the SDA was guarding TV

 9     Sarajevo?

10        A.   This is the first I hear of it.

11        Q.   Very well.  You go on to say that the JNA began arming the Serb

12     population in Prijedor.  And you say it was unlawful.  Can we agree that

13     the war was going on in Croatia at the time?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And there was a general mobilisation declared in 1991.

16        A.   Yes.  But I believe this arming took place even before the

17     mobilisation.  But, all right.  Let's take it that it was at that time.

18        Q.   Is it true that anyone who responded to the mobilisation call-up

19     received a weapon, regardless of ethnicity?

20        A.   The army knows best what it did with those who responded.

21        Q.   In fact you don't know whom the army was arming?

22        A.   In the paragraph you're reading, it's about three particular

23     situations, and the arming was taking place outside of any military rules

24     or regulations.

25        Q.   How do you know that?  Did you study the military regulations on

Page 3505

 1     the arming of the population?

 2        A.   I did my military service.  I know -- Your Honours, I have to say

 3     this --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Not at the same time.  You were asked whether you

 5     studied the military regulations on the arming of the population.  Did

 6     you; or did you not?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not study them.  But I do

 8     have experience.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, please.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Do you know that in the former Yugoslavia, at the time you are

12     talking about, there was a system of All People's Defence?

13        A.   I am aware of the system of All People's Defence, and I read a

14     course for two years in school named All People's Defence.

15        Q.   Do you know that the front line in Croatia held by the 55th Corps

16     was over 800 kilometres long?

17        A.   I don't know that.

18        Q.   Do you know that the periphery stretches in Bosnia-Herzegovina

19     were armed?

20        A.   I don't know.  I know what happened in Prijedor.

21        Q.   You told us that you served in the artillery?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Where did you do your military service?

24        A.   In Leskovac.

25        Q.   What was your weapon?

Page 3506

 1        A.   A 105-millimetre Howitzer in an artillery garrison that had

 2     weapons of 105 to 155 millimetres.

 3        Q.   Did you attend drills using live ammunition?

 4        A.   Twice.

 5        Q.   Did you go to Krivolak?

 6        A.   To the Bulgarian border once and some place called

 7     Pasuljarske Livade.

 8        Q.   Did you get a rank after serving the army?

 9        A.   Perhaps private first class.

10        Q.   What did you do that Howitzer 105-millimetres?

11        A.   I was -- I was the gunner.

12        Q.   I would now like to ask you something about the takeover in

13     Prijedor --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, Mr. Mladic made a gesture again.  Last

15     warning.  There's no need to comment, even by gestures, on any answer of

16     the witness, what he did in the army, yes or no.

17             Mr. Mladic, this is the last warning.  Once again and you're out

18     of court.

19             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21        Q.   Speaking of the takeover in Prijedor, you say all Muslims were

22     dismissed from their work.  But I would like to focus with you on the

23     period from the takeover of power until the 22nd May 1992.  Would you

24     agree that after the takeover only politicians lost their jobs in

25     Prijedor; in other words, people who held high posts as members of a

Page 3507

 1     certain party because the SDS had taken over power?

 2        A.   In the first few days it was only the politicians.  Later, it was

 3     teachers, foremen in factories and other staff, then lower-ranking staff,

 4     and then everyone else.

 5        Q.   Before the 22nd, those people who did not come to work for three

 6     days lost their jobs and that was completely legal, wasn't it?

 7        A.   I cannot talk about individual cases and individual fates.  There

 8     were people who came to work and were unable to get in.  There were

 9     people who worked in banks and who were prevented from coming through the

10     door.  And if the -- their administration later treated it as a failure

11     to report to work, that was only symptomatic of the whole situation and

12     the interrelations.

13        Q.   You say in the same paragraph:

14             "Later on, movement from non-Serb areas towards Prijedor was

15     prohibited."

16             Who made this prohibition?

17        A.   We could see it only happening.  We could see only the execution

18     of that prohibition.  Of course, we did not see the document itself.

19     Military check-points were set up in Orlovci, and in the period we are

20     discussing, you could not pass through that check-point anymore.  You had

21     to ask for a special permit, and my trip to Prijedor -- or rather, our

22     trip to Prijedor was with a permit to go through that check-point.

23        Q.   So movement was controlled.  It was not prohibited.

24        A.   Most people were turned back.  And people who wanted to go to

25     town in order to go to work, and people who wanted to go to town for

Page 3508

 1     other reasons, to go shopping, were turned back.  And on what grounds

 2     individuals were allowed to go through, I don't know.  I know only it was

 3     up to the authorities and those who controlled those check-points.  On

 4     the route to Banja Luka, on the other hand, it was impossible to go

 5     through at all.

 6        Q.   Did it apply in the direction from Kozarac?  Could you get

 7     through from Ljubija, for instance?

 8        A.   I don't know that.

 9        Q.   Then you say:

10             "Non-Serb teachers were removed from schools."

11             When were teachers removed from schools?

12        A.   Teachers were removed from schools shortly before the takeover.

13     Only one person, one lady, remained working in the school, and she was

14     married to a Serb.  And it was from her that we were able to get some

15     more information about the cases in her school.  And it is certain that

16     the same thing was going on in other schools.  Some of our SDA activists

17     were teachers in schools, and they told us what was going on.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Can we make a break, Your Honour?  Obviously

19     Mr. Mladic --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take an early break.

21             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

22             Any checkups should be done within the next 20 minutes, to the

23     extent possible.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 20 minutes to 11.00.

Page 3509

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 4             Meanwhile, I use the opportunity to -- Mr. Mladic, thumbs up is a

 5     gesture which is unacceptable; by the way, the same would be true for

 6     thumbs down.  Just for you to know.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Sejmenovic, we were discussing the topic of

11     teacher dismissals.  Did you learn that the schools in Prijedor actually

12     stopped working on the 20th of May, 1992?

13        A.   Shortly following the period we discussed, they continued working

14     for about between seven to ten days.

15        Q.   And before the takeover, apparently you seemed to say that some

16     were fired before the 30th of April?

17        A.   I have never said that.

18        Q.   I thought you just did.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Pause between question and answer, and between

20     answer and question.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   It is in the transcript.  Line 8, page 18:

23             [In English] "Teachers were removed from schools shortly before

24     the takeover."

25        A.   Before the attack.

Page 3510

 1        Q.   Attack on?

 2        A.   Before the military coup, before the attack on Kozarac and

 3     Hambarine.  The dismissals took place after the takeover of power.

 4        Q.   Paragraph 17 - and we'll dwell on it a bit longer - you say that:

 5             "The non-Serb workers who tried to go to work were sent home.

 6     The police chief Hasan Talundzic had been delegated by the SDA and told

 7     us that non-Serb police officers were disarmed and sent home."

 8             Is it correct that the policemen in question refused to

 9     acknowledge the authority of the SDS after the takeover?

10        A.   The policemen were disarmed in the police station.  Later on,

11     some of them were offered a possibility -- later on --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sejmenovic, the question was a different one.

13     The question was whether Mr. Talundzic refused to acknowledge the

14     authority of the SDS after the takeover.  Did he, or did he not, to your

15     knowledge?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Talundzic refused and he could no

17     longer retain his function -- or keep his function.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Paragraph 18.  It reads -- well, there you

21     discuss Exhibit 06908, which is P285.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have it on our

23     screens.

24        Q.   You quoted part of that document.

25             "Only persons who are absolutely loyal to the Serbian Republic of

Page 3511

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina can be placed in the management positions in

 2     enterprises."

 3             Did the situation allow that at such time people loyal to the

 4     other side should be allowed to stay in management positions?

 5        A.   Your Honours, this is -- this is a parastate document which was

 6     put in the place by paralegal authorities.  It goes directly against the

 7     state law.  We abided by the laws of Bosnia-Herzegovina and its lower

 8     instances.

 9        Q.   Well, we come to the domain of law again, and we have already

10     established that are you not a lawyer.

11        A.   To assert this, one need not be a lawyer.  It is a matter of

12     fact.

13        Q.   Facts are that you did not honour the laws of Yugoslavia.

14        A.   We honoured the laws of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The Autonomous

15     Region of Krajina was a para-state at that point in time.

16        Q.   At that point in time, was the JNA the official armed force in

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18        A.   Up to a certain point, but afterwards --

19        Q.   We are talking about the 11th of May.

20        A.   On the 11th of May it still was, but it was duty-bound to act

21     within Bosnia-Herzegovina in keeping with instructions of the Presidency

22     of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It did not.  It acted contrary to the will of the

23     Supreme Commander who was part of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24        Q.   In your view, the Supreme Commander of the JNA in

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina was the president of the BiH Presidency?

Page 3512

 1        A.   In Bosnia-Herzegovina the army was not independent.  It could act

 2     in co-operation with the state.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, would you please allow the witness to --

 4     where is he answering to your question, allow him to finish and not

 5     interrupt him.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   My question was this:  In your view, was the president of

 8     Presidency in Bosnia-Herzegovina the Supreme Commander of the JNA, which

 9     is what you just said, I believe.

10        A.   The commander of the JNA -- well, perhaps I formed it poorly.

11     They had their commander, and in the territory of that republic, the army

12     could not behave as if the republic did not exist.  It could only act in

13     co-ordination with the president of the republic.  However, it acted as

14     if there was no president or parliament.  It also supported parastates in

15     their process of creation.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we go on with this for the next hour, it

17     seems that we have a rather chaotic examination mainly dealing with legal

18     issue where the witness firmly wants to support the idea that the Serbian

19     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Autonomous Region of Krajina, was

20     not a authority which deserved to be obeyed, and where you, Mr. Lukic,

21     seem to emphasise that the JNA was still the official army within the

22     former Yugoslavia at that time.  Where the witness wants to then

23     introduce other elements of the way how -- what may have been the formal

24     army of the former Yugoslavia, what limits there were in the way they

25     would exercise the functions.  This is a chaotic discussion.  Most

Page 3513

 1     important - and I think that has become clear to the Chamber - is that

 2     there were huge disputes about state and armed forces and police

 3     authority.

 4             I take it that the Chamber is not assisted by all the details as

 5     we were not assisted by details on where exactly the witness served in

 6     the army, whether he was dealing with Howitzers or mortars, or whatever.

 7     At least not without a follow-up.  The Chamber does not understand how it

 8     would serve it in making the determinations it will have to make.

 9             Let's move on.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, if I may.  I'm going through witness's

11     statement.  This is in his statement, and I have to question him on this.

12     If he says he knows, let him explain.  I think that he helped us every

13     time when he tried to explain something.  I cannot leave it this way

14     without asking him.  Otherwise it would -- because tomorrow it will be

15     very easy to contradict his testimony.  But if we don't have his

16     testimony, it wouldn't be possible.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not saying that you could not ask him questions

18     about what he says, but it expands far beyond that and that is what the

19     Chamber does not consider in the interests of the justice at this moment.

20             Ask him questions about when teachers were fired or not.  He

21     explained that to us as what was the takeover, what he understands that.

22     And the more we go into details and the more you start responding to all

23     kind of minor elements of his answers, we get further and further away

24     from what this case is really about.  This is what is the Chamber's

25     guidance at this moment for the further cross-examination.

Page 3514

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3        Q.   Is it correct that the SDS at the time, which is the 11th of May,

 4     asked for loyalty not only by Serbs -- by Muslims but by Serbs as well.

 5     We can see item 6 where it says that all able-bodied men who had fled the

 6     region of the Krajina should immediately return to their municipalities.

 7     The next paragraph in item 6:

 8             "All persons who fail to respond to the above calls shall be

 9     forbidden to return to their homes in the territory of the Autonomous

10     Region of Krajina, and all their movable and immovable property shall be

11     confiscated."

12             Does this pertain to Muslims, Croats or Serbs; or perhaps all of

13     them?

14        A.   Reading paragraph 6, it seems it applies to all.  And the last

15     sentence, in and of itself, speaks volumes about illegitimacy of this

16     document and the person who put it in place.  Confiscating property may

17     not be the consequence of a failure to respond to a military call-up.  It

18     was not the case in any system.

19        Q.   Well, perhaps not.  But if such law is in force, then it would

20     be.

21        A.   There was no such law, and this is a testimony to what kind of

22     creation it was.  This sentence has no basis in the constitution of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina or any other legal act that I am familiar with through

24     my work in the parliament.  The Autonomous Region was a parastate

25     creation.

Page 3515

 1        Q.   You say that non-Serb were driven out of the factories.  How many

 2     factories were there in Prijedor and how many of them were operational at

 3     the time?

 4        A.   I don't know any details about it, but there were several

 5     factories.  The wood pulp factory was operational.

 6        Q.   Is it not true that it stopped its production because it could no

 7     longer receive raw materials from Croatia?

 8        A.   I know from others that one part of that factory called

 9     Fel Pak [phoen] still worked.  There were some other facilities that were

10     operational, such as those servicing the railway, transport companies,

11     some other public companies, et cetera.

12        Q.   Is it correct that it was not only the dismissal of employees but

13     that there was a complete stop of all economic activity in Prijedor which

14     was directly connected to the attack on Prijedor and the incidents in

15     Kozarac and elsewhere?

16        A.   I cannot answer that question.  I wasn't in the town of Prijedor

17     itself.  I don't think it could have brought about a complete stop to all

18     economic activity.

19        Q.   You say -- or, rather, you are critical of the Serbs boasting

20     about taking over Prijedor without firing a single bullet.  That's in

21     paragraph 20.  Is it a fact that the power was taken without firing a

22     single bullet?

23        A.   Yes.  But what you read was only half of the sentence.

24        Q.   We have the rest in your statement.  I'm just asking if it is

25     correct.

Page 3516

 1        A.   Yes, it is.

 2        Q.   Now let's move to paragraph 21.  You say that the main

 3     personalities were on the Crisis Staff, and then you name Stakic,

 4     Kovacevic, and Drljaca, and you added "... as well as military

 5     commanders."  Were military commanders members of the Prijedor Crisis

 6     Staff?

 7        A.   Under the laws, the notion of Crisis Staff during the time of war

 8     was precisely defined, and it was prescribed who members were.

 9        Q.   I'm asking you whether, according to these provisions, were

10     military commanders members of the Crisis Staff.

11        A.   If there is a garrison in a municipality, each garrison commander

12     becomes a member of the Crisis Staff by virtue of his position.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please pause.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  It is only now, Mr. Lukic, that the transcript of

15     the answer was completed.

16             I don't have to explain to you how could you do it.  Just do it.

17             MR. LUKIC:  I apologise.  Thank you.

18             [Interpretation] Can we please have in e-court 1D323.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Lukic kindly be advised to wait for

20     the interpretation to end.  Thank you.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   This is a decision regulating the organisation and work of the

23     Crisis Staff of Prijedor municipality from May 1992.  There is a

24     description of how it is going to be organised.  And then, under

25     Article 4 --

Page 3517

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Which is page 3 in e-court in B/C/S,

 2     and page 2 in English.

 3        Q.   So Article 4 reads that:

 4             "The Crisis Staff of Prijedor municipality shall consist of a

 5     president, a vice-president, and nine members."

 6             And down there, these representatives who are to sit on the

 7     Crisis Staff are being listed.  I can't see anywhere under this article

 8     any mention of a member of a military.  At that time, were you aware of

 9     this document?  And what is exactly your source of information?  Can you

10     tell us in which document you found that military personnel were members

11     of Crisis Staffs?

12        A.   This document was adopted by new authorities in May of 1992, as

13     you can see on the front page.  The legislature that was in force prior

14     to that prescribed who and under what conditions can become a member of

15     municipal Crisis Staff and how the staff is formed and how it functions.

16             So according to the former legitimate laws, the Crisis Staff

17     looked differently, and it was obligatory for garrison commanders - in

18     the municipalities where there were garrisons - to become members of a

19     Crisis Staff.

20        Q.   Do you have any knowledge if at that time this decision was

21     implemented in Prijedor municipality or if those laws that you just

22     mentioned were implemented, although you never told us specifically which

23     legal document you had in mind?

24        A.   Prior to the takeover of power, the legislature that had been in

25     force before that were applicable, and a Crisis Staff met once with the

Page 3518

 1     Chief Cehajic --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the name of the

 3     military person.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the name of the military

 5     person you just mentioned.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vladimir Arsic, the garrison

 7     commander.  But that was before the takeover of power.  There was an

 8     initiative that:  Due to the prevailing situation, a Crisis Staff should

 9     be set up and meet.  According to the municipal statute, this initiative

10     was implemented and they met, and Colonel Arsic was present in one of the

11     meetings when discussions were conducted with the president of the

12     municipality.  But I underline, once again, that that was before the

13     takeover of power.  When the military coup was carried out, the Serbian

14     authorities took power and we now see on our screens a new document,

15     which is different from the one that stipulated the organisation of the

16     Crisis Staff in the preceding period.

17             Here, in this specific instance, you can see that the head for

18     housing and utility affairs shall become a member of a Crisis Staff.

19     This is nonsense because in the previous legislature this person could

20     not be a member of a Crisis Staff on any grounds.  I can tell you who was

21     supposed to be member of Crisis Staff according to the old legislature.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you present this as a decision.  It,

23     however, on its face -- it seems to be a draft.  The date on which it

24     apparently was adopted is not there.  So, therefore, could you inform us

25     on whether this was ever --

Page 3519

 1             MR. LUKIC:  This document, Your Honour, was used in Stakic trial.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But that's not an answer to my question.

 3     There may have been -- I'm not saying that any unwise things were done in

 4     the Stakic trial.  I do not know, as a matter of fact.  But what I'm

 5     asking now is where this document appears at face value to be without a

 6     date when it was adopted, without, in the original, the signature where

 7     you would expect it.  And at the bottom again not any adoption date.  I

 8     was just interested in the status of this document which you presented as

 9     a decision.

10             MR. LUKIC:  It's obvious from the records, from the sessions of

11     the Crisis Staff, that were held after the -- the takeover.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Would Mr. Lukic kindly be advised to let the

13     interpreters end the translation.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat everything you said now.

15     Because you have not allowed the interpreters to translate my words.

16             So please re-start.  I think you wanted to say that it's obvious

17     from the records.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Records of the sessions of the Crisis Staff of the

19     Prijedor municipality held that this act was in force.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you would say, I will tender into evidence

21     the proceedings of the Crisis Staff on that and that date when it was

22     adopted, and I suggest it to be tendered from the bar table, that is an

23     answer.  But this is all rather vague, and the Chamber very much insists

24     on facts rather than on debates.

25             But I do understand that it's your position that it was adopted.

Page 3520

 1     We still do not when it was adopted.  And we're looking forward to

 2     receiving further information on this document which, on its face, is a

 3     draft and nothing else.  It may be that it was adopted without any

 4     changes.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I just want to inform Your Honours that this document

 7     is received from the Prosecution.  It bears their number.  And we'll have

 8     a witness on Crisis Staffs in this trial proposed by the Prosecution.  So

 9     I think it's the best time to discuss this document and similar in

10     length.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Fine.  No problem with that.  But, Mr. Lukic, that

12     it was received from the Prosecution means that a document which, on its

13     face, seems to be a draft, was received from the Prosecution.  If you

14     receive a draft, and if you present it as a decision, then you need to

15     explain, and I now do understand that you are going to explain.  Not at

16     this moment.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Let's move on, Mr. Sejmenovic.  Paragraph 22 of your statement.

21     You speak about the period when the Army of Republika Srpska was

22     established and the intensification of co-operation with the

23     Crisis Staff.  And you say under paragraph 22:

24             "The JNA withdrew from B and H in mid-May 1992 but in reality did

25     not withdraw.  They just changed their name.  The officers called

Page 3521

 1     themselves the Serb army, and the troop numbers increased even more in

 2     the area of Prijedor ..."

 3             My question is:  You are testifying about Prijedor.  Can you tell

 4     me, the soldiers who were originally from Serbia, did they leave

 5     Prijedor; do you know that?

 6        A.   As far as I know, only one small group of conscripts who were

 7     stationed in the area of Mrakovica and the barracks there, but in

 8     non-combat positions.

 9        Q.   The soldiers who remained, were they from Serbia, Macedonia,

10     Montenegro, or were they from Bosnia and Herzegovina and specifically the

11     Bosnian Krajina?

12        A.   The majority of them were locals.  I'm talking about the

13     mobilised reserve forces who became part of the establishment force of

14     the 5th Kozara.  The Command Staff remained, according to the decision

15     they should have left.  And, of course, the weapons remained there.

16        Q.   Let me ask you this - and this is something that we already

17     discussed with some military personnel from the command of the 5th Corps.

18     Now, I'm going to ask you:  After the 28th of June, when corridor was

19     open and people were able to leave the territory of Bosnian Krajina, can

20     you tell us exactly by name who remained in the Army of Republika Srpska?

21        A.   Which date?

22        Q.   28th of June, 1992.

23        A.   On 28th of June, I was completely alone on the ground.  I had no

24     contact or communication with anyone.  Slightly after that, I entered the

25     Trnopolje camp and I obtained certain information there.

Page 3522

 1        Q.   Based on this information that you acquired, can you tell us now

 2     that you don't know who from the officers from Serbia and Montenegro

 3     remained in the RS, or don't you know that?

 4        A.   No, I don't know any particulars about military personnel.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You should make a pause between question and

 6     answer as well.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Let's move to paragraph 23 now.  After the takeover of power in

 9     Prijedor by the SDS, did you attend any assembly meetings, the rump

10     assembly that existed in Prijedor at the time, and did you attend any

11     Crisis Staff meetings?

12        A.   No.  Not after the takeover of power, but I did do so before.

13        Q.   Can we, therefore, conclude that you don't know what were the

14     relationships between the Crisis Staff and the Republika Srpska?

15        A.   After the takeover of power, yes, I know because we were present

16     at the meeting where personnel from the army and Republika Srpska were as

17     well as members of the Crisis Staff.  They had enjoyed full co-operation

18     amongst themselves.  However, the army had last say on certain issues.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one clarification.

20             In the statement, you say that:

21             "In the municipal assembly, Arsic and Zeljaja would use 'we' to

22     describe themselves and the SDS politicians."

23             If you did not attend any of the municipal assembly meetings, how

24     did you know the exact use of language as you described in this

25     statement?

Page 3523

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in paragraph 23, it

 2     says at the beginning "After the VRS was created," but in actual fact

 3     this paragraph covers a longer period of time.

 4             Before the takeover of power, Arsic and Zeljaja attended a number

 5     of meetings of the municipal assembly where I myself was present too.

 6     And this word "we" was used to refer to all those who were backing the

 7     policy of joining the war in Croatia.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So where paragraph 23 suggests that things

 9     changed after the VRS was created, saying that the relationship became

10     more direct, illustrated by the use of the word "we," that was a

11     situation that existed already before.  Is that correctly understood?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is.  And at the meeting that I

13     attended, they used this word "we."

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That is what you said before, and I pointed at the

15     fact that this apparently was not a change after the moment you described

16     in paragraph 23 but what was happened already before.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] In your statement dated 29 May, in paragraph 2

20     in B/C/S, the page is --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Co-counsel please repeat the numbers.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And paragraph 4 is on 012480 -- 82,

23     you say the following:

24             "The orders to go into battle to go into attack could be issued

25     exclusively by military commanders.  Only they were able to give orders

Page 3524

 1     to fire weapons or artillery.  However, the decision to go into battle at

 2     all was a political decision.  In this case, either taken by the Crisis

 3     Staff or the National Defence Council from Prijedor."

 4             You talk about the attack and Hambarine.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber is not aware of this

 6     statement.  Doesn't have access to it.  Therefore, could you please show

 7     it to us because we want to know what the context is.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I just planned to ask this witness would he say the

 9     same today.  Nothing else.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless, if you refer -- then you can ask him

11     without referring to that statement.  You can ask this question and then

12     be satisfied that it's the same or whether it's different and then put to

13     him, if it is different, what he said at the time.  But you're quoting

14     from a statement, and the Chamber wants to have access to that statement

15     in order to be better able to appreciate and to evaluate the evidence the

16     witness gives.

17             MR. LUKIC:  We don't -- we didn't upload this statement into the

18     system, Your Honours, so I'm not able to do that.  So I will rephrase my

19     question.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please do so.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Is it true that there was a political decision

23     to attack Hambarine issued by the Crisis Staff or the National Defence

24     Council from Prijedor, a decision that the army executed in that attack?

25        A.   In the statement you referred to, I said that on principle - and

Page 3525

 1     generally speaking - there has to be a political decision in order to use

 2     force, and the army gets orders along its chain of command and executes

 3     those orders.  Now which political authority runs the army is another

 4     matter.

 5        Q.   Very well.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see in e-court 1D322.

 7     This is a report from the Ministry of Interior, Security Services Centre

 8     Banja Luka, public security station Prijedor.  It's a report on reception

 9     centres in the municipality of Prijedor.

10        Q.   On page 2 of the B/C/S - and that's the last paragraph on page 2

11     in B/C/S and also page 2, the second paragraph from the top - it says:

12             "The Crisis Staff of Prijedor municipality has decided to carry

13     out a military intervention in this village in order to disarm and

14     capture known perpetrators of crimes against soldiers.  The army has

15     intervened and placed Hambarine village under control."

16             Is that your experience from that time, from Prijedor, that the

17     Crisis Staff ordered the army?

18        A.   My experience is that the army in Prijedor received orders from

19     the military command in Banja Luka; whereas, the Crisis Staff of Prijedor

20     municipality, in my opinion, could not issue orders to the

21     Banja Luka Corps.  There had to be a higher authority to order such

22     action.

23        Q.   Very well.  Later on you spoke about Omarska, and since we have

24     this document on the screen already, I'll ask you a few questions.  On

25     page 4 in B/C/S -- bear with me a moment.  I can't find this paragraph in

Page 3526

 1     English for the time being.  We'll move onto the next one.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 8 in B/C/S, and page 6

 3     in English.

 4        Q.   In the fifth paragraph from the top in B/C/S, and also fifth

 5     paragraph under chapter 3 in English of this report of the public

 6     security station in Prijedor, it says:

 7             "The investigating centre of POWs in Omarska and the transit

 8     facility Keraterm directly -- are directly secured by employees of the

 9     police in keeping with the decision of the Crisis Staff, considering that

10     it has been assessed that in view of the numbers of the population, the

11     area affected by armed conflict, the army does not have enough resources

12     to take over these facilities too."

13             In your statement, paragraphs 52 and on, you mentioned that you

14     used to see army troops in Omarska in the camp itself.  In several places

15     you saw soldiers based, and they also walked around between hangars.  You

16     also saw people in army uniform.  How could you determine inside Omarska,

17     in the very centre where people were placed, who was a member of the

18     army?

19        A.   Partly judging by the uniforms, and I also got some information

20     from speaking to others.

21        Q.   And from speaking to others, did you hear a name of any of these

22     army members and to what unit that they belonged or the name of any unit?

23        A.   No.  Such personal information, I was unable to get anywhere.

24        Q.   You know that many people were convicted for Omarska, both before

25     this Tribunal and before the Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina; do you know

Page 3527

 1     that?

 2        A.   I know there have been convictions, but I don't know how many.  I

 3     did not follow that closely.

 4        Q.   Do you know that these judgements found that only policemen

 5     worked in Omarska?

 6        A.   No, I don't know that.  And from my experience, there were not

 7     policemen alone.

 8        Q.   All right.  But as you said, you have no specific examples to

 9     offer to counter these judgements of both the Tribunal and the Court of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11        A.   I don't know first or last names or their war-time assignments,

12     not concerning any individual.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment.

14             [In English] Is it convenient time, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we had a relatively late start, isn't it?  So

16     let's continue.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   In paragraph 24, you say:

19             "Slobodan Kuruzovic, an SDS official, was at the meeting, and he

20     later became commander of the Trnopolje camp."

21             Since you were active on the political scene at that time, do you

22     know what position Slobodan Kuruzovic had in the SDS?

23        A.   I don't know the specific position but he was a prominent member.

24     I believe he was on the Municipal Board, but I'm not sure.

25        Q.   You also speak about the -- the ultimatum to turn over 5.000 or

Page 3528

 1     7.000 weapons, and you say at that time in Kozarac there was no such

 2     number of weapons.  Did you participate in the arming of Kozarac?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Were you present when the shipments of weapons were brought to

 5     Kozarac?

 6        A.   There were no shipments of weapons to Kozarac.  I have no such

 7     information.  People did buy individually when they were able to.

 8     There's no question of organised arming because I would have known about

 9     that.

10        Q.   Why would you have known about that?

11        A.   Because after the takeover our very existence was in jeopardy,

12     and the issue of weapons was a vital issue.  There were no weapons.

13     People tried to make them by hand.  If there had been weapons, there

14     would have been no need to make them by hand.

15        Q.   Is it true that you were an advocate of arming yourselves rather

16     than surrendering weapons at the meetings you had in Kozarac?

17        A.   That's not true.  What is true is that I advocated honouring the

18     laws of Bosnia-Herzegovina, expanding the Territorial Defence, and

19     letting it do its job because we had no guarantees that we could stop

20     bloodshed by any other means.

21        Q.   When you say "to expand the Territorial Defence," does it mean to

22     increase the number of people and the number of weapons?

23        A.   It means to organise the necessary defence in case non-Serb

24     villages and populations are attacked.  That means the most essential

25     defence, only defence.

Page 3529

 1        Q.   Very well.  But you're still not answering the question.

 2        A.   I have answered the question.  That has been discussed.  We've

 3     dealt with it.  The question was to accept an ultimatum we could not

 4     abide by.

 5             Your Honours, the situation was clear:  Either return 7.000

 6     rifles ...

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think you've told us that already.

 8             Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] What did you just say?  What, in your

11     understanding, was organising essential defence?  Does it mean filling

12     the Territorial Defence with people and replenishing it with weapons?

13     You are giving me political boiler plates.  I'm asking you were you

14     advocating the purchase or acquisition of weapons and organising

15     fighting?

16        A.   Sir, you are talking about a -- the moment when we were under an

17     ultimatum.  There was more time to acquire weapons.

18        Q.   My question was not --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you advocating the purchase of weapons?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at that time one

21     could not advocate anything anymore.  We were under blockade and

22     encircled.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether you could or not, the question is:  Did you

24     advocate the purchase of weapons?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we had been able to, I would

Page 3530

 1     have acquired planeloads, including tanks.  But it was not possible

 2     anymore.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  So you were in favour of getting arms.  Did you

 4     ever -- was it only your inner thoughts or did you ever express that view

 5     in the presence of others?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a life-and-death need, but

 7     it was no longer possible even in theory.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I really have to urge you that you answer the

 9     questions that are put to you.  I didn't ask you whether it was a

10     life-and-death need.  I asked you whether you expressed those thoughts in

11     the presence of others.  That was my question.  Did you; or did you not?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's an impossible

13     question.  The discussion was whether to return weapons --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No, it is not an impossible question.  I just asked

15     you whether your inclination, your wish, to buy weapons, whether you kept

16     that for yourself or whether you ever shared that with others?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had neither the wish nor the

18     means any longer.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You would have acquired planeloads of weapons but it

20     was not possible anymore.  This expresses clearly at one point in time

21     that you wished --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, did you ever share that thought with others?

24     You don't have to tell me that at a certain moment that you had given up

25     on making it possible.  Did you ever share that thought with others?

Page 3531

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I recall -- well, could

 2     it be specified what point in time we're discussing?  If we are

 3     discussing the meeting in Kozarac --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm -- I said:  Did you ever.  That means all times

 5     you can specify when you did share it or, as I do understand, from what

 6     moment on you did not express that wish anymore.  It's for you to say.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only on one occasion.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Which occasion?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the ultimatum was issued,

10     when any further talks were interrupted with Zeljaja.  I was afraid at

11     that point in time that if we surrendered even a minimum amount of

12     weapons that what would follow would be a massacre.  Then I expressed

13     that I was afraid to have the weapons returned for the fear of us being

14     finished if we did that.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, that doesn't say anything about whether

16     you shared the wish to buy weapons because that was the question -- the

17     question was about that.  But do I understand that after the ultimatum

18     was made, that you at least wished to --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I never discussed any

20     procurement of weapons.  At no point in time.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I think it's time for a break.

22             Witness, could I really urge you not to tell us what's on your

23     mind but rather focus on what you're asked and to give answers to that.

24     If I would ask you whether you arrived at a certain moment -- at a

25     certain place by car, then you can start telling us about how many

Page 3532

 1     bicycles are available and whether you could have taken a tram or a

 2     plane.  But the question simply is:  Did you arrive by car.

 3             This is, of course, just an example.  Think about it during the

 4     break.  Try to focus your answers on the questions put to you, rather

 5     than to tell us about bicycles, planes, and trams.

 6             You may follow the usher.  We take a break.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and we resume at quarter past

10     midday.

11                           --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 12.16 p.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

14             Mr. Lukic, perhaps I raise a very short question.  You gave us

15     the conclusions which were sent to the president of the municipality

16     personally.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Under 3 I read:

19             "We hereby express our support for the work of the Crisis Staff

20     of the Autonomous Region of Krajina."

21             Now this was apparently a conclusion reached by that same Crisis

22     Staff, so I was a bit surprised and wondered whether there's any

23     translation issue.  Because it says we support ourselves.

24             Is that what it says?

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, it does.

Page 3533

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then I have no further problems with that.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Sejmenovic, in paragraphs 29 to 31, you

 5     discuss the attempt to expand the TO in Kozarac.

 6             In paragraph 30, you say that the TO called on people to put

 7     themselves at its disposal.  Did you have any problem with the -- with

 8     the response or was the response a good one?

 9        A.   I did not get involved directly as I was not neither competent

10     nor had the authority to deal with it, but I do not recollect any

11     problems with people responding.  It was quite the other way around

12     actually.  This was put in place as a result of the pressure put on by

13     the population itself.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, by the way, I had forgotten tell you we

15     have considered how much time there would be for cross-examination.

16     Having considered all the elements, which would include the certain level

17     of irresponsiveness of the witness, we expect you to finish today.

18             MR. LUKIC:  I expect the same, Your Honour.  Thank you.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Is it correct that over three and a half

20     thousand people responded?

21        A.   I don't know what number of people put themselves at their

22     disposal, but there must be lists in existence.

23        Q.   Thank you.  The next chapter deals with the campaign of expulsion

24     in Prijedor.  In paragraph 33, you discuss Hambarine.  I wanted to ask

25     you something about that paragraph.  You say that on the 22nd of May,

Page 3534

 1     1992, a place called Hambarine was shelled?  Would you agree that on the

 2     22nd of May there was still no combat, save for an attack on certain

 3     soldiers in a passenger vehicle trying to go through the check-point at

 4     Hambarine?

 5        A.   That incident took place between the 22nd and the 23rd, the

 6     attack on Hambarine.

 7        Q.   Very well.  Did you know that some army members were killed at

 8     the check-point?  Rade Lukic and Radovan Milojica were killed and another

 9     four army members were wounded?

10        A.   We could hear it in the media, as well as by way of radio

11     communication in the municipality.  We heard about an incident and an

12     exchange of fire, but I was in no position to know of any other details.

13        Q.   Did you know Aziz Aliskovic?

14        A.   I did not.  Perhaps I knew him by face, but not by first and last

15     name.  By appearance I knew him.

16        Q.   Is it true that military organisation was discussed as early as

17     March 1992 in the Prijedor hotel at the level of regional board of the

18     SDA?

19        A.   I was deputy president of the SDA, but I hear of this for the

20     first time from you, and yet I was the deputy president.

21        Q.   Is it true that after -- well, was there a meeting of the

22     regional board of the SDA in the Prijedor hotel in March 1992?

23        A.   I can't say.  I don't know.  I was not on the regional board.  I

24     really don't know.  It doesn't sound likely that a meeting with such

25     agenda was held at that time in the Prijedor hotel.

Page 3535

 1        Q.   In any case, we can conclude if there was a meeting in

 2     March 1992, meeting of the regional SDA board, you were not in attendance

 3     and you don't know what was discussed?

 4        A.   If there was a meeting, I was not in attendance and I don't know

 5     what was discussed.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Did you hear about the killing of Radenko Djapa on

 7     1 March 1992 on Kozarska Street in Prijedor.  He was a regular policeman.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  In May.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I also heard it in the media.  I

10     heard about a policeman who was killed and that the non-Serb village of

11     Cerevci was responsibility and that the perpetrator hid there.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ...

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Did you know that on the 3rd of May in Hambarine, a War Staff was

17     formed by the SDA for the area?

18        A.   A War Staff of the SDA being formed in Hambarine?

19        Q.   Yes.  For the area of Prijedor.

20        A.   As far as I know, the SDA never established any War Staffs.  It

21     supported the work and expansion of authority of the legal defence

22     bodies.  That was the position of the -- the SDA.

23        Q.   Do you know what, then, was located in a subterranean bunker

24     located at Borahovo hill?

25        A.   I hear of that hill for the first time.  I've never heard of that

Page 3536

 1     name.  As for any bunkers, there's no point to discuss anything further

 2     then.

 3        Q.   Very well.  I have no basis, then, to ask you any other questions

 4     on that.  We'll move onto Kozarac then.  The unit commander in Kozarac

 5     was Sead Cirkin; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.  Officer Sead Cirkin was in the TO Staff.

 7        Q.   He was a professional military person?

 8        A.   Yes.  Only a few months before that period he was included in the

 9     war in Croatia where he was wounded and returned home, whereby he joined

10     the TO.

11        Q.   So he left the JNA and joined the TO?

12        A.   Yes, as a wounded person.

13        Q.   Did you have any shelters built in Kozarac as well as warehouses

14     storing medicine, fuel, food?

15        A.   I don't know about that.  I do know, though, that the Serb

16     television broadcast footage of some two or three shelters somewhere in

17     the area of Kozarac.  Two or three.  Although the area was huge.

18        Q.   Before the attack, before the conflict in Kozarac, did you have

19     any connecting trenches and fortifications built there as well as

20     obstacles placed along roads there?

21        A.   For the most part, there was none of that.  I heard of certain

22     obstacles placed in parallel with the Serb check-point at Orlovci as well

23     as close to a check-point held by the Serb army in Jakupovici village.

24        Q.   Is it true that a military column was attacked in Jakupovici

25     village?

Page 3537

 1        A.   We heard that on Serb radio.  Some denied it, others claimed it

 2     was true, but I don't know whether anything happened, and what.

 3        Q.   Following the fighting in Kozarac, is it true that Prijedor town

 4     itself was attacked on the 30th of May, 1992?

 5        A.   We heard about a group which arrived from the direction of

 6     Hambarine, which had been torched in Prijedor and carried out an infantry

 7     attack.  We also learned it from the media as well as through different

 8     communication channels in the TO.

 9        Q.   After the initial fighting in Kozarac, did you hear that

10     Kemal Alagic led a group which tried to re-take Kozarac?

11        A.   I hear about that for the first time.

12        Q.   Did you know that fighting continued in Kozarac throughout May

13     and June?

14        A.   May and June?

15        Q.   Yes.

16        A.   That's correct.  That's wrong --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  That is not correct, interpreter's correction.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have wrong information.  There

19     was no fighting in May and June.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Is it correct that there were sabotage attacks in the area of

22     Kozarac in August and September 1992?  Have you heard of that?

23        A.   This is the first time I hear of it.  I know that during

24     August and September, the process of people being taken away and deported

25     from their villages and homes to camps was still under way.

Page 3538

 1        Q.   The policemen who were in Kozarac, did they take part in the

 2     fighting on the 24th and the 25th.

 3        A.   On the day that this happened, I was at Trnopolje.  I didn't go

 4     to Kozarac town.  I tried to go there but then I went back.  Whether

 5     there was any such fighting taking place there, I don't know.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You could have started your answer by saying that

 7     you don't know.  Then we could have proceeded.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10        Q.   However, in paragraph 35 you describe the fighting in Kozarac.

11     You were not there, though, and you have no direct knowledge.

12        A.   Will you please give me some time to look at paragraph 35?

13        Q.   Please go ahead.

14        A.   No, I'm not describing infantry fighting here that you are

15     talking about.

16        Q.   You are talking only about shelling?

17        A.   Yes, the shelling and the burning of Kozarac.

18        Q.   Very well.  Did you see that on the 25th of May the fighting

19     stopped?  Have you noticed that?

20        A.   Yes, there were several suspensions of fighting that -- some

21     lasted longer, some lasted shorter -- I apologise.  I meant shelling.

22        Q.   Do you know that the inhabitants of Kozarac were called upon to

23     cease fighting during the fighting itself?

24        A.   The inhabitants of Kozarac received announcements and messages

25     and requests via radio, but during the first two or three days there was

Page 3539

 1     no Serb army.  There couldn't have been any fighting.  Only shelling.

 2        Q.   You just said you don't know because you were not there.  But let

 3     me ask you something else:  Did you hear any calls upon the civilians of

 4     Kozarac to seek shelter in Prijedor until the fighting is over?

 5        A.   I heard the calls for the civilians to be sent to Trnopolje.

 6        Q.   Do you know that during the fighting many civilians found shelter

 7     in Prijedor, both with their relatives and in Serb houses?

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please pause between

 9     questions and answers.

10             MR. LUKIC:  I am too fast?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, no pause.

12             Could you please repeat your last question?

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Sejmenovic, do you know that at that time

15     the wounded from Kozarac arrived at Prijedor hospital, both Serbs and

16     Muslims?

17        A.   No, I don't know that because I wasn't there physically.

18        Q.   You never heard about that at a later stage?

19        A.   Yes, I heard.  But that referred to people who were brought from

20     a different area.

21        Q.   Can you please now explain something to us.  I'm going to ask you

22     a completely different question.  For how long were you in hiding before

23     you went to Trnopolje for the first time?  And I don't mean the village.

24     I mean the centre there.

25        A.   Well, practically from the beginning of the attack on Kozarac

Page 3540

 1     until the -- the end of July or the second half of July.

 2        Q.   At that time, where did you stay?  Did you stay in one place or

 3     in several places?  You never explained that.  Can you explain that to

 4     us?

 5        A.   I spent most of the time in a house where a Bosniak woman was

 6     living, and she was surrounded by houses owned by Ukrainians.  For a

 7     certain period of time, I spent -- I lived in an unfinished house or in

 8     outbuildings or somewhere outdoors.

 9        Q.   You wanted to keep a low profile and not to move too much around.

10     That was the reason why you were hiding?

11        A.   Yes, yes.

12        Q.   In paragraph 36 when you describe the refugee columns and what

13     was happening in Trnopolje, and you said that "I saw it all with my own

14     eyes," does it refer only to the initial period when you were headed

15     towards Kozarac and before you went into hiding?

16        A.   This refers to a period that lasted between 15 and 20 days.  But

17     some of the events happened even a month later.

18        Q.   Your sources of information were mainly hearsay; that is to say,

19     what you heard from other people?

20        A.   No, no.  I'm talking about the things that I saw with my own

21     eyes.  And my encounter with the refugee columns and the so-called ethnic

22     cleansing.  I saw that on several occasions.  Allow me, please, to make

23     it easier for you.  Sometimes I didn't have time to run away, and I had

24     to hide very close to a road or in a building close to a road.

25        Q.   Well, when you said that you were hiding in two houses, in fact,

Page 3541

 1     or outdoors in the vicinity of those houses; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.  That was within the radius of between 250 and 300 metres.

 3     But this is a point where three or four villages converge.  That is a

 4     junction between these villages.

 5        Q.   Now, back to 36.  You say:

 6             "The Serb infantry advanced, driving people out, and killing

 7     stragglers letters in villages."

 8             Now this killing people in villages, which villages did you have

 9     in mind?  Were you there?

10        A.   There was a group of refugees in the village of Sivci, and when

11     the army entered the village to drive them out, they killed a few people.

12     I was about a kilometre away and some people came to the house of

13     Dzemal Sivac, where I was, and they gave us this information.  Later on

14     while I was walking during the night I came across those graves.  On

15     another occasion, I was watching the cleansing of the village of

16     Mujkanovici.  I was in close proximity and I saw everything.  However, no

17     one was killed on that occasion.  What happened was that after the

18     shooting people were lined up into a column and were driven to Kozarac,

19     and this was accompanied by singing of songs and things of that nature.

20        Q.   Were there any members of the Serb army, Serb police, or Serb TO

21     in the area?

22        A.   Do you mean deployed?

23        Q.   No, no, I mean on the move.  Because you were moving around the

24     area and watching all this.

25        A.   On three separate occasions I saw these developments because I

Page 3542

 1     was on the run, and I said I didn't have enough time to run away.  I

 2     tried to hide as much as possible and watch this.  On one occasion I went

 3     into an old shed and I heard army personnel talking, and they wanted to

 4     open a garage and take a car that was inside it by shooting at the door,

 5     and during that I had an occasion to hear them talking.

 6        Q.   Let's move to paragraph 37 now.  You say:

 7             "Some soldiers wore Martic militia uniforms, others JNA uniforms,

 8     others uniforms of the 5th Kozara Brigade.  Others wore civilian

 9     clothes."

10             Those wearing civilian clothes, were they armed as well?

11        A.   Yes.  The top was, for the main part, a military outfit.  These

12     people were carrying weapons and they were joining them in actions with

13     soldiers.

14        Q.   What is the difference between the uniform of the soldiers of the

15     5th Kozara Brigade and the JNA uniform?

16        A.   JNA soldiers were more neat and cleaner.  They were similar, the

17     uniforms I mean.  But they also behaved themselves in a different way.

18     They were more disciplined and their demeanour was better.  The other

19     soldiers were less disciplined.

20        Q.   No, I'm asking you about the difference --

21        A.   Well, the 5 Kozara Brigade had old reservist --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Please pause between questions and answers.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only difference was in the

24     uniforms between those who were on APCs and those who were in infantry.

25             As for Martic's people, Martic's men, they were dressed in some

Page 3543

 1     slightly different uniforms, with lighter pattern.  I know that because

 2     even before the war, I saw some people from Prijedor who were dressed in

 3     Martic's uniforms, and I saw them in a restaurant when they were

 4     drinking, so that led me to believe that these uniforms were present

 5     there as well.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   In paragraph 38, you say:  The women and children were in

 9     Trnopolje or in some places where groups of refugees had gathered.  A few

10     days later, an army arrived and killed a number of people.  Were you

11     yourself present at these locations when the army came and killed a few

12     people?

13        A.   Yes, I was.  At two locations where the refugees were, and at one

14     location where one woman was killed and another was wounded.

15        Q.   And where was all that taking place?

16        A.   Some old men and old women were killed in Circi [phoen] village.

17     There was a huge group of refugees.  One old man was killed in front of

18     the entire group, and then close to the house another two or three people

19     were killed.  I heard shots.  I heard this was happening but I wasn't

20     present.  It was only later that I stumbled upon those graves.

21        Q.   When was that?

22        A.   That was in mid- -- or, rather, beginning of May --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  July, interpreter's correction.

24        A.   If I remember correctly, it might have been early July 1992.

25     Another location where people were killed or, rather, a woman was killed,

Page 3544

 1     was some 500 metres from the place where I was hiding.  While they were

 2     driving people out of the village, they killed a woman in her garden.

 3     She -- she was not a Muslim, but due to the fact that the villages that

 4     they were vacating were close by, I think that that's the reason why they

 5     shot her because they believed her to be a Muslim as well.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask the witness to repeat what he said about

 7     the first occasion.  You said:

 8             "Some old men and old women were killed in ..."

 9             And then you mentioned the village where there was a huge group

10     of refugees.  Could you please repeat what village you mentioned?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sivci village.  And there was quite

12     a large group of refugee there.  It's S-I-V-C-I.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Now I think you earlier referred to Sivci village,

14     but have I difficulties in finding it.  You've told us about graves

15     you've seen in Sivci.  Is that the same you are talking about or is it a

16     different event?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  It's the same place.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  It's -- it's the same place.  But was it also the

19     same event?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  The same event and I'm

21     talking about a few graves that were hastily dug out.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see that the village is spelled as

23     C-I-V-I-C-E rather than Sivci.  But you are talking about the same event?

24             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 3545

 1        Q.   Mr. Sejmenovic, these graves where, according to you, people were

 2     buried immediately after the killing --

 3        A.   These people were buried by other refugees.  The army had already

 4     passed.  That was in late afternoon or early evening.  The army passed

 5     through looking for men and looking for particular individuals.  They

 6     killed a few people.  And then the refugees buried these people in a rush

 7     next to a religious facility.  These men and women were buried there.

 8     During the following day, Sivci were completely empty.  There were no

 9     refugees anymore.  I don't know exactly the location where these graves

10     were, and during the night I just stumbled upon this mound of earth, or,

11     rather, these graves.

12        Q.   So you did not speak to those people at all about the murders.

13        A.   You mean those people who came to Dzemal Sivac's house and who

14     spoke to me and the woman in whose house I stayed?  They -- they said

15     what had been going on over there.  They also told me some details, if

16     you want ...

17        Q.   You say they evacuated this refugee column and these people came

18     to the same woman's house.  What does it mean, "evacuate the refugee

19     column"?

20        A.   They came at one or two days later so that after that there was

21     nobody left in Sivci, and the woman in whose house I was hiding had to

22     leave because she was threatened by the army, and after that I remained

23     completely alone.

24        Q.   Which unit were these armed men from; do you know?

25        A.   You mean the armed men who entered Sivci village?

Page 3546

 1        Q.   Yes.

 2        A.   I don't know that.

 3        Q.   Paragraph 39.  You say:

 4             "Serb forces from Bosnia-Herzegovina and others did the same job,

 5     the same procedure, the same consequences."

 6             And then you paint a general picture.  You did not see these

 7     events for yourself?  These are your conclusions, inferences?

 8        A.   Some events I did observe from a smaller or greater distance.

 9     And I know about a few others from other people.  And what I saw in those

10     three cases, the procedure was the same.  The way events unfolded was the

11     same.  And I could see what happened in the Novikamovici [phoen] village.

12        Q.   But you make your inferences based on what you know and you told

13     us today that you don't know many of these things, such as military

14     organising, arming, et cetera.  You do not know if there had been

15     fighting in specific villages where you say people were expelled or

16     evacuated.  You don't know how or if they were armed.  You don't know

17     which fighting went on, who participated in it, which military forces,

18     et cetera?

19        A.   Concerning the place I was and the area where I was, I have

20     already said what I know.  And I do know the answers to most of your

21     questions.  However, concerning villages that were 15, 20 kilometres

22     away, especially in that period of isolation, I could not possibly know.

23        Q.   Let us move to letter J above paragraph 143 where you speak about

24     Trnopolje.  You entered Trnopolje camp unnoticed; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3547

 1        Q.   You say you crawled below some sort of wire.  Is that how you

 2     entered?

 3        A.   I crawled through a ditch or a canal, and it took just one step

 4     to crawl under the wire.  It was some sort of berry wire.

 5        Q.   Is it true that the area where people were placed was not fenced

 6     in on all sides?

 7        A.   That's correct.

 8        Q.   Some parts were just surrounded by a very low fence, several

 9     dozen centimetres?

10        A.   Yes.  A lot of it was in a clearing, but it was covered by a

11     machine-gun nest.

12        Q.   You say in paragraph 44:

13             "Trnopolje camp was supervised by a military organisation."

14        A.   Yes.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Are you aware - at least that's what the documentation says -

19     that the police took over the security over the centre from the army?  Or

20     were they just uniformed men to you?

21        A.   The man to whom I surrendered was an army officer,

22     Lieutenant Slavko.

23        Q.   Kuruzovic?

24        A.   No, Kuruzovic was the camp commander, whereas the officer to whom

25     I surrendered and who took me to the command and later to the military

Page 3548

 1     police nearby Keraterm was a lieutenant by rank.  His first name was

 2     Slavko.  In addition to Slavko, there were other soldiers there, so he

 3     was a soldier.

 4        Q.   Very well.  To which unit did he belong?

 5        A.   I don't know.  I could not possibly know.

 6        Q.   When you entered at that time, was that place totally

 7     disorganised?

 8        A.   At that point, yes.  But before that, there was strict

 9     discipline; the lining up of men, and roll-calls by first and last names.

10        Q.   Just a moment.  Now paragraph 45, please.  You describe the

11     reasons why other people came to Trnopolje.  Did people come to Trnopolje

12     of their own accord?

13        A.   Some groups did come on their own, after the torching of

14     neighbouring houses and the torchings and killings in other villages.

15     After that, they had information that the only safe place, the only safe

16     thing to do was to go to Trnopolje, and some people indeed did come there

17     that way.  But that was a smaller part, I must say.

18        Q.   In paragraph 46, if you can have a look at it, you talk about the

19     killing of an old man, a young woman, and rapes.  You did not see any of

20     these things.  You were not there.

21        A.   I was there when six people were taken out.

22        Q.   That is paragraph 47.  I'm talking about 46.  Have a look,

23     please.

24        A.   I know I had a brief contact with the lady doctor who was there,

25     a veterinarian in fact.  I know that they were present and that they

Page 3549

 1     offered assistance.  Of the killings, I heard the ones I name in

 2     paragraph 46.  I was not there because they happened before I came to

 3     Trnopolje camp.

 4        Q.   Very well.  Let us move to paragraph 47 where you describe these

 5     six people bearing the last name of Foric.  How many men took them away?

 6        A.   Let me see.  As far as I was able to see, because it was already

 7     dark, I think three men took them away.  Whether somebody else was

 8     waiting behind the tractor, I don't know.  I only know that one of them

 9     was a policeman.

10        Q.   So you say today three men.  In your statement, you say two.  One

11     soldier, one policeman.

12        A.   I repeat.  This is how it was.  It was dark.  One soldier had

13     come before to see the Forics, talk to them, and went away.  Now it is

14     dark.  A policeman comes and a soldier comes.  They're standing on the

15     edge behind the tractor.  It's my impression that there are more people

16     there.  They order one Foric to call the other brothers and have them put

17     their footwear on --

18        Q.   You've told us this already.  Just how many men took the Forics

19     away?

20        A.   Two, possibly more.  It was dark and I was not quite free to lift

21     my head and look around to see if there were more of them.

22        Q.   Because in the Tadic case, transcript of the 24th of May 1996,

23     page 1390, or perhaps it's the next page, 1391, you said that four people

24     took the Forics away.

25        A.   Well, then it must be four.  Because my memory was much fresher

Page 3550

 1     then.  And two -- two of them did the talking with the Forics.

 2        Q.   Very well.  Now I should like to move to the documents you

 3     discussed with the Prosecution.  We don't need to call up in e-court.

 4     It's P290.  That's a decision of the Executive Council of Prijedor

 5     municipality to dismiss Mirza Muftic from work.  It is signed by

 6     Dr. Kovacevic.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we see in e-court, please, for

 8     example, 65 ter, 07105.  And then I will put my question.

 9             This document is also a document of the Executive Board, also

10     signed by Dr. Milan Kovacevic as president of the Executive Board, and it

11     is about the dismissal of Milenko Djukanovic, economist, from his post of

12     director of the socially owned company Zagreb Voce.

13        Q.   Milenko Djukanovic was a Serb, wasn't he?

14        A.   I suppose so.  That's what his name indicates, but I suppose it's

15     from some other party, not the SDS, and that's the reason for his

16     dismissal.

17        Q.   Very well.  We would like to tender this document, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Moloto has a question.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, when you brought this document up at

22     paragraph 59, line 22 to line 25, or to line 62, you say:

23             "Very well.  Now I should like to move to the documents you

24     discussed.  We don't need to call up in e-court.  It's P290."

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

Page 3551

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  "It is the decision of the

 2     Prijedor [microphone not activated] it is signed by Dr. Kovacevic.  Can

 3     we see in e-court, please, for example, 65 ter 07105."

 4             Now when you say "for example," I'm not quite sure what -- are we

 5     seeing here P292 or are we seeing 07105.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we see 07105.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This is [microphone not activated].

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  Because it's from the same set and we made

 9     it -- we stipulated yesterday that there is more documents like we saw

10     yesterday, like P290.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may continue.

13             MR. TRALDI:  We have no objection if the document is being

14     tendered.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I still had to decide -- we had to decide on

16     admission.

17             Madam Registrar, the number would be.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 07105 becomes Exhibit D62, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  D62 is admitted into evidence.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We'll move on.

21        Q.   Yesterday the Prosecution showed you a document, P289, and we

22     would need to see it again in e-court.

23             You discussed this document with the Prosecution.  It's dated 1st

24     July 1992.  The Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina passed

25     this decision saying, in item 1 - and that's what you said - that senior

Page 3552

 1     positions, leading positions, can be held only by Serb cadres.

 2             In item 2 we read also these posts may not be held by Serbs

 3     either who did not confirm in the referendum -- who did not confirm it in

 4     the referendum and are not idealogically clear that the only

 5     representative of the Serbian people is the SDS.  Do you notice this?

 6        A.   Yes.  But this was taken two months later.

 7        Q.   Is it grounds -- I don't mean legal grounds, but is it also a

 8     basis for non-acceptance that somebody does not belong to the SDS?

 9        A.   That's the way you can understand it.  That's what this document

10     of the Crisis Staff says.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday we saw P291, and we can look at it again.

12     This is a photograph of a thin man, and you said that was approximately

13     what people in Trnopolje looked like.

14        A.   I said the majority of them.  Most of them, depending on how long

15     they had been in the camp.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see in e-court 1D350.

17        Q.   We see a whole group of people here.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   The one on the right is even on the chubby side.  Isn't that so?

20        A.   It is so.

21        Q.   None of the people in this picture look like the man you had

22     discussed earlier from the previous photograph shown you by the

23     Prosecution.

24        A.   It depends on when he was deported.  Some had been there a month

25     and a half, two months, whereas others were deported later from other

Page 3553

 1     parts of Prijedor.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just for the record we see the ERN

 3     number here on this photograph, the still we took from the video.  It's

 4     V000-0664.  And we could perhaps see if we could see the bottom of the

 5     still from which time sequence the still was made.  We would also like to

 6     tender this photograph.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  No objection, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D00350 becomes Exhibit D63,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

13             I think the parties - and I'm also addressing the Prosecution -

14     certainly also addressing the Prosecution, better refrain from showing

15     one man who is badly fed and then the other party shows someone who could

16     needs some --

17             MR. LUKIC:  Workout.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Some workout.  I mean, that's, from an evidentiary

19     ponit of view is, of course, is -- and again, I was about to say it

20     yesterday, that doesn't help.  It doesn't assist.  Because what we are

21     talking about is about the main impression these persons made and giving

22     examples and then to ask, Is this how it looked?  I mean, the Chamber has

23     an imagination of how it looks if you are underfed.  But since the

24     Prosecution tendered it, since the Defence now tenders another picture,

25     it is admitted into evidence.

Page 3554

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  We have more but we will

 3     refrain from showing them and introducing them.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's -- no, you could compete.  Ten pictures

 5     of thin people, ten pictures of well-fed people.  I hope that you

 6     understand --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I do, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that we were not --

 9             Mr. Traldi, I hope you understand as well.

10             Please proceed.  I'm also looking at the clock.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Is it a good time to have a break?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  It would be a good time for a break, and we first

13     would like the witness to be escorted out of the courtroom.

14             MR. LUKIC:  And while --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. LUKIC:  -- the witness is escorted, I can tell Mr. Traldi

17     that he'll have some time for his additional -- or re-direct, if he

18     needs.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That's appreciated.

20             We take a break, and we resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22                           --- Recess taken at 1.15 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 1.36 p.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 3555

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Sejmenovic.

 3             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Sejmenovic, we are near the end.  I have another document.

 6     Yesterday you commented upon Exhibit P288.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have it brought up.

 8     It is dated the 30th of April, 1992, issued by the Prijedor SJB.

 9        Q.   It refers to the takeover and how many police stations had been

10     mobilised.

11             Do you recall that, at that time, the MUP had already been split

12     in two?

13        A.   What do you mean, split in two?

14        Q.   Had certain MUP members left or were they divided?  On that date,

15     were you still working together?

16        A.   Well, it was on the day of the takeover.  On that day, they no

17     longer worked together.

18        Q.   Very well.  You spent several days in Trnopolje.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Was any food provided in Trnopolje?  Food that was not procured

21     by the people there themselves?  Was there a mess or a kitchen?

22        A.   I heard that they brought some bread which was insufficient, and

23     then it was approved for the people to go to the nearby houses and bring

24     in foodstuff to prepare food for themselves.  Some people also received

25     permission to go and catch cattle, which was roaming free by that time in

Page 3556

 1     order to have the meat prepared in cauldrons.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Did you notice people who had lice?  Did they have

 3     dysentery, typhus?

 4        A.   In Omarska there were a great many people with dysentery.  In

 5     Trnopolje itself, well, I had no opportunity to see because I was in one

 6     place only while I was there covered for the most part.

 7        Q.   Could you see anything?

 8        A.   Well, I know there were many sick people but I can't tell what

 9     you they were sick of.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Please bear with me.  I'm trying to

11     wrap things up.

12             [In English] Sorry for this confusion.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] I will stay with the topic of relationship

14     vis-a-vis the JNA.  The deadline for JNA units to withdraw from

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina was the 19th of May, 1992; correct?

16        A.   I know it was around mid-May or in the second half of May, but I

17     don't recall a specific date.

18        Q.   Is it true that most officers following JNA departure from

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina remained, those who hailed from Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20        A.   I don't know that, really.

21        Q.   You do know that some Muslim officers were from Serbia and

22     Sandzak, such as Sefer Halilovic and Ramiz Drekovic?

23        A.   That is correct.

24        Q.   Do you know who made the decision on organising, training, and

25     arming of units known as the Green Berets or the Territorial Defence of

Page 3557

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Patriotic League?  What do you know on that

 2     score?

 3        A.   I know quite a lot as regards Prijedor.  As for the state as a

 4     whole, I know that the TO was an armed formation which received

 5     instruction from the level of the top of the state.  They had their

 6     command and structure in Sarajevo and they were a legitimate force.

 7        Q.   Do you know when the Green Berets and the Patriotic League were

 8     established?

 9        A.   I know there were some groups in other parts of the country later

10     on which organised themselves by way of self-defence.  But I can't

11     discuss any details.  There are people who are far more competent to

12     speak on that topic.  In Prijedor, such organisations did not exist.

13        Q.   Do you know that there were many attacks on the JNA before its

14     departure from Bosnia-Herzegovina?  There were attacks in

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16        A.   Well, the things that were common knowledge is what I knew as

17     well.  I know about conflict in Tuzla, and I know something about

18     Sarajevo later on when the war broke out there.

19        Q.   Do you know who made such decisions, to have the JNA attacked?

20     Could you get any such information at SDA meetings?

21        A.   Well, attacks on the JNA?  It's a one-sided interpretation

22     because the other side had a different one and there are still disputes

23     to this day.  I'd rather not go into it.

24        Q.   I hope it is -- not in dispute that if an officer's wife is

25     attacked -- well, did you hear about that?  I hope there's no dispute as

Page 3558

 1     to who attacked whom, if a child or the wife of an officer was attacked.

 2        A.   Well, it depends on an interpretation of the sides that are

 3     involved.  I would really like to stay out of that domain.

 4        Q.   Did you know that at the time of attack in Prijedor on 30th of

 5     May, 1992, most of the 43rd Brigade and the 5th Kozara Brigade was at the

 6     front line in Croatia or deployed along the corridor?

 7        A.   I know that some of those soldiers were in Posavina.  They had

 8     been there before.  As for the front in Croatia, at least as far as the

 9     5th Kozara Brigade area, the fighting had already ceased there because

10     the army had control over that territory.  There was no serious fighting

11     there anymore.

12        Q.   I'd like to ask you something on a tangential matter.  At

13     paragraph 58 - it is P283 - you say that you were interviewed by two

14     Serbian journalists.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And you say that one of them promised you a written text of the

17     interview so that you would be able to read it.  You say that you read

18     out that text in front of a camera.  Where in the interview can we see

19     that you are -- were reading a text?

20        A.   Well, I don't have that footage.  I can't -- you can't see it.

21     It was Zoran Mutic from Prijedor.  He came one day, had a conversation

22     with me.  He told me of his intention and told me that he would prepare a

23     text --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You're now repeating what you said in your

25     statement.

Page 3559

 1             Mr. Lukic, where in the interview can we see?  You mean the video

 2     of --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  What we received, yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the interview.  Yes.  Well, what you'd -- what

 5     you expect the witness to -- is it visible, is it not visible?

 6             Have you reviewed the video of that interview, Witness?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have not, Your Honour.  I'd like

 8     to, though, but I had no opportunity to do so.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it may be difficult for the witness to answer

10     your question, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   I have reviewed it and that is why I'm asking you, since I did

13     not come across that part.  And today you told us that it was not among

14     your interviews.  After that, Mr. Kupresanin arrived and took you away.

15     You were taken from Omarska to where?

16        A.   To the municipal building and his office in Banja Luka.

17        Q.   And later you were at some address?

18        A.   In Bosanska Vrbanja where my sister and brother-in-law lived.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, just for our understanding, is that

20     interview in evidence?

21             MR. LUKIC:  We have several interviews --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but --

23             MR. LUKIC:  -- but I'm not sure now [Overlapping speakers] --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- apparently --

25             MR. LUKIC:  -- in the evidence.  I've never seen this gentleman

Page 3560

 1     reading --

 2             JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  -- in any interview I saw with him.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine.  But of course the Chamber will have to

 5     evaluate the evidence.  You are suggesting that he is not reliable when

 6     he says that he was reading.  That's the clear suggestion in your

 7     question.

 8             Now a witness cannot -- it's unfair to a witness unless you show

 9     him that interview, and if -- and show it to the Chamber as well so that

10     we can assess what we see and whether that affects in any way the

11     reliability.  But you can't just put that to the witness to suggest that

12     he's not telling us the truth and then leave it to that.

13             And of course if the witness leaves, then, of course, he is

14     unable to further comment on it, and that is -- again is -- at a later

15     stage, you could not rely on saying, Look at the video, we don't see

16     anything, because the witness could have told us otherwise perhaps.  We

17     do not know.  But this is not the way to proceed.  That's what I would

18     like to tell you.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Unfortunately, I did not prepare.  Otherwise I would

20     have to prepare all the videos we have with this witness.  We have --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say --

22             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] I wouldn't have time.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say I reviewed it, I don't see him reading

24     anywhere --

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

Page 3561

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  --- then at least you could have a list of the

 2     videos and then ask Mr. Traldi whether he at any point in time sees the

 3     witness reading and then agree on it or give it to the Chamber so that we

 4     could have a look at it.

 5             But how to resolve it is not --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I will withdraw the question.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- our primary responsibility.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  It's not the main point of my cross-examination of

 9     the witness.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   You went to your sister's and brother-in-law's where you stayed

13     until the end of that year; correct?

14        A.   Until the 14th of January, 1993.

15        Q.   And there, you went --

16        A.   I went to Banja Luka with the assistance of the ICRC.

17        Q.   And your sister and brother-in-law remained there?

18        A.   For a while.  Until they got an opportunity to get out and they

19     were evacuated.

20        Q.   Very well.  While you were staying with them, were you

21     mistreated?

22        A.   No.  It was suggested to me that I better stay indoors without

23     venturing outside.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Sejmenovic.  I have no further questions for you.

25        A.   Thank you.

Page 3562

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

 2             Mr. Traldi, let me first confer with my colleagues.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

 5                           Re-examination by Mr. Traldi:

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.  And I'd like to start with one of

 7     the last topics in cross-examination, and we'll play a clip from

 8     65 ter 22615 which has been labelled 65 ter 22615B.  We'll that the

 9     entire clip first in accordance with the recent guide-lines on videos.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If at least you want to rely on text spoken.  If it

11     is about looking whether someone seems to be reading, then I might not

12     even need any text.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I will ask a couple of questions about

14     the text as well.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Then we have to play it twice.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Before it will be played for the second time, could

18     I ask the witness:  Is this one of the two interviews with journalist

19     Mutic, or is it the interview by Dragan Bozanic?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Dragan Bozanic's interview.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

22             Please, I take it that you want to have it played for a second

23     time.  Yes.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour, and we'll start that now.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

Page 3563

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The British journalist did not want

 3     to film the infirmary of this centre, nor were they interested in

 4     prisoner Mevludin Sejmenovic, a former deputy of the Bosnia-Herzegovina

 5     Assembly and an activist of the SDA.

 6             "We have heard that you are one of the rare members or -- or

 7     rather occupants of this reception centre who came here to Omarska of his

 8     own accord?

 9             "Sejmenovic:  Yes, precisely.

10             "Reporter:  Could you explain for what reasons, why you came?

11             "Sejmenovic:  Well, I came after waiting for a while in hiding so

12     that the main perpetrators of all those horrible event could be caught;

13     so that the whole truth about the entire incident could be established;

14     so that the truth could be established about the people who committed all

15     this evil; so that my work and the statements that I will give will be

16     believed.

17             "Reporter:  Who are you referring to when you say they should be

18     caught?  Who is to blame for all this, all this horror that happened here

19     the region?

20             "Sejmenovic:  I mean primarily the leader of the Party of the

21     Bosnian Krajina, the president of the region, Mirza Mujadzic, and the

22     president of the party in Prijedor, also Mirza Mujadzic, and the member

23     of the executive committee for Bosnia-Herzegovina, as well as the people

24     in the party who organised all these war tasks, war affairs.

25             "Reporter:  Do your colleagues, those who are here with you in

Page 3564

 1     the centre, know -- do they know your opinion?  Can you say what you

 2     think openly about all this -- why all this evil has befallen the Muslim

 3     people?

 4             "Sejmenovic:  I have already spoken about it twice here in

 5     conversations with people and in an interview for the Krajina television.

 6     I've already given my statements and I have given -- sent a message to

 7     the people with respect to this entire situation that I am observing

 8     directly on the spot in Bosnian Krajina, that means in Prijedor.  I'm not

 9     observing it with a telescope as do those who are the main architects of

10     this evil.

11             "Reporter:  I don't know if you have had an opportunity to see

12     the foreign journalists, mostly from Great Britain, who are visiting this

13     centre here, and the reason is that there have been reports in the world

14     in the past few days that there are in the Serbian republic, that is the

15     area where you are now, that there are concentration camps for Muslims

16     and Croats.  Since you are here in the centre and you say you came here

17     of your own accord, would you tell these foreign journalists what the

18     truth is, and do you know whether it is indeed a concentration camp?  Is

19     this a concentration camp or is this a collection centre?  What could you

20     tell them?

21             "Sejmenovic:  Well, I could tell them that the war operations

22     resulted in such consequences that made it necessary to group people both

23     for security reasons and for mere survival.  Ultimately speaking.  And

24     that this does not have the features of a concentration camp as it is

25     described by political propaganda, and I think they could see all that

Page 3565

 1     with their own eyes today.

 2             "Reporter:  One more question.  Before the -- before the war,

 3     flared up for real here, did anyone among the Muslim people in this area

 4     prepare for war?

 5             "Sejmenovic:  There was -- there had been talk over the months

 6     before in everyday conversations among ordinary people who have nothing

 7     to do with politics and certainly in the political parties, including the

 8     SDA, about weapons because there was a great amount of fear and

 9     uncertainty and people were looking for some kind of support then.  In

10     conversations people talked about their personal safety and so on.  But

11     it's abundantly clear that political oligarchies did a lot of shady

12     business behind the backs of their own membership and the entire people.

13     Their aim was probably to push people into some kind of struggle for

14     their own personal or individual interests, not reckoning with the real

15     consequences that could result from all that or even counting on them and

16     working precisely for that purpose.  I don't know.

17             "Reporter:  Since the foreigners are already concluding that this

18     war in our territories has all the features of a religious war, have you

19     heard that certain Muslim priests - and Hodzas and Imams - had special US

20     made weapons for killing game already before the war?

21             "Sejmenovic:  I really don't know about arming or weapons, and we

22     have already discussed that for a long time.  There's every evidence of

23     that.  But from talk among ordinary people and today after everything,

24     there is evidence that a number of priests were involved in the arming or

25     smuggling of weapons or in some other way.  I don't know.  But I know

Page 3566

 1     that by doing so they have probably violated the norms and regulations of

 2     the religion they preach and the norms of human ethnics and that they

 3     deserve, quote/unquote, some credit for all this evil that has happened

 4     to all the peoples.  Not just one."

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   Sir, it was probably implicit in your response to the President's

 7     question, but just for the record, did you recognise the man in the

 8     T-shirt speaking during this video?

 9        A.   Yes, that's me.

10        Q.   And did you recognise the journalist who was interviewing you?

11        A.   Yes.  That's Dragan Bozanic, a journalist.

12        Q.   And when you were given a text to read into the camera, which

13     journalist was interviewing you at that time?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, this is clear from the transcript, isn't

15     it?  From the -- from the statement.

16             Mr. Mutic gave him a text to be read and he was also interviewed

17     by someone else.  And the same, of course, to ask who was the person in

18     the T-shirt.  Of course he is announced as such, we can see it, of

19     course, unless there would be any very special thing to believe that it

20     was someone else if he is called by the name of this witness.  Let's try

21     to go -- come to the substance as quickly as possible.

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   Then I'll move to the things you say during the video, then, sir.

24     And the things you say in the video are surprising, and I want to ask you

25     about a couple of them.

Page 3567

 1             First, you agree with the reporter that you came to Omarska

 2     voluntarily.  Was that an accurate statement of how you felt at the time?

 3        A.   No, that was not correct.

 4        Q.   And you seemed to say that Omarska was necessary and that people

 5     were grouped there for safety.  Is that a true statement of what you

 6     believed at the time?

 7        A.   No, that is an untruthful representation as well.

 8        Q.   And how did you feel --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC:  I think after that fact is clarified that it's not

12     Mutic, this does not come from my cross-examination.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd say the video is within the scope

15     of cross-examination.  He cross-examined on the relevant paragraphs as

16     well as the video interview, but I'm in your hands in this regard.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you're right.  If the Prosecution would

19     have wanted to show us this video in addition to the statement, they have

20     had an opportunity to do so.

21             And, Mr. Traldi, the cross-examination was about the reading of

22     the statement and that was a different interview, and you now show us the

23     other interview.  That was exactly the reason why I asked immediately

24     after the first playing which of the interviews this was.

25             Please proceed.  Do you have any further questions for the

Page 3568

 1     witness?

 2             MR. TRALDI:  I do, Your Honour.  Just about five brief questions.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you -- again all the parties are --

 4             MR. TRALDI:  I will be as efficient as I can, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   Beginning on temporary transcript page 26, Mr. Sejmenovic,

 8     Mr. Lukic questioned you about the participation of military officers in

 9     the Crisis Staff.

10             MR. TRALDI:  And I'd ask the Court Officer to call back up

11     document 1D00323, which is also 65 ter 07104.  I'd ask that we turn to

12     Article 9 on page 4 of the English and 5 of the B/C/S.

13        Q.   That article reads:

14             "The Crisis Staff shall maintain constant co-operation with units

15     of the JNA, the Territorial Defence, Civilian Protection, and the Public

16     Security System via the senior officers of these institutions and

17     organs."

18             And sir, my question for you is:  Is this consistent with your

19     observations of the relationship between the Crisis Staff and Serb forces

20     in Prijedor municipality?

21             MR. LUKIC:  I have to object again, Your Honour.  My question was

22     whether these gentlemen were members of Crisis Staff, not whether they

23     co-operated or not.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But that's so clearly related to the matter

25     that your objection is denied.

Page 3569

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, if the Defence is willing to stipulate

 2     to it then I will happily withdraw the question.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  There's an invitation, Mr. Lukic whether you would

 4     stipulate.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's not the witness, I think, who was

 7     invited.  Stipulation that this is what is found in Article 9 on page 4.

 8     Is that what you want the Defence to stipulate on?

 9             MR. TRALDI:  To the co-operation between the military and the

10     Crisis Staff in Prijedor.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  But that it is in the document or whether they

12     co-operated?  I mean, the relationship is described by the witness in the

13     statement.  We're now talking about what is found in the document.  If --

14     but let's -- the document is tendered and is in evidence, isn't it,

15     Mr. Lukic?

16             Yes.  Now whether in paragraph 9 these words are found, why do we

17     need a stipulation?  This Chamber, I will put on my glasses, we can read.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, then I'll withdraw the invitation and

19     just ask that the witness answer the question.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And the question is whether that's found in

21     paragraph 9?  I still don't have it on my screen yet.

22             MR. TRALDI:  The question is whether that was consistent with his

23     observations.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

Page 3570

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   At pages 36 and 37 of today's transcript, Mr. Lukic suggested to

 3     you that only policemen worked in Omarska.  In paragraph 55 of your

 4     statement, Exhibit P283, you say there were soldiers marching up and down

 5     the areas where the prisoners were.  Where did you see these soldiers

 6     specifically?

 7        A.   I saw the soldiers on the tarmac.  Some of them were entering the

 8     hangar, some were coming out.  When I was taken to the white house

 9     soldiers came to beat me.  Soldiers also entered the room next to the

10     green house [as interpreted].  And they were positioned along the route

11     between Omarska and the camp itself, and it was equipped with sandbags

12     and machine-gun nests.

13        Q.   At transcript page 49, Mr. Lukic asked if you heard that Muslim

14     wounded from Kozarac were brought to the Prijedor hospital.  You said:

15             "Yes, I heard, but that referred to people from a different

16     area."

17             My question is:  Does that mean that you did not hear that

18     wounded Muslims from Kozarac were brought to the Prijedor hospital?

19        A.   I literally said this.  I don't know about Kozarac but I heard

20     that certain individuals were taken from -- to the hospital, individuals

21     from other regions.

22        Q.   And finally, sir, Mr. Lukic and His Honour inquired about arming

23     the Kozarac TO, and you replied by mentioning in part the ultimatum you

24     received from Major Zeljaja.  My question for you in this regard is:

25     During the meeting you had with Colonel Arsic, Major Zeljaja,

Page 3571

 1     Mr. Miskovic, and others at the Prijedor SDS headquarters - or at any

 2     point after that - did any of the Serb authorities give the impression

 3     that if you surrendered whatever weapons you had, regardless of the

 4     number, an attack on Kozarac could be avoided?

 5        A.   No, no, they did not display any indication or any gesture of

 6     goodwill that would give us some hope, and they instead issued an

 7     ultimatum which was impossible to fulfil and any attempt on our part

 8     would end up in failure to fulfil this ultimatum.

 9        Q.   Thank you, sir.  That concludes my questions.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I have to put something right on the record.

11             The -- Mr. Traldi, you called back the document 1D00323, that was

12     the one with paragraph 9 in it, but that was not tendered by Mr. Lukic.

13     He read a portion of it.  It is the same, as you say, 65 ter 07104.

14     Would the parties like to have that in evidence?

15             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour, so that the Bench can read it as

16     you suggested.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you were the first one to refer to it.

18     Shall we make a Defence exhibit?

19             MR. LUKIC:  I'll let Mr. Traldi have it as their exhibit,

20     Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, how generous you are today, gentlemen.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, sir.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, I decided that it will be Defence

24     exhibit.  It would receive number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D323 becomes Exhibit D64, Your Honours.

Page 3572

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  D64 is admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I just have one question for

 3     this witness, please.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I ...

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm looking at the booth because you're all

 7     adding to my bad reputation, and the interviewer in the video said one

 8     more question and then he put another five.  If you limit it to one

 9     question, Mr. Lukic, please do ask that question.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

11                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   I still have to trouble you for a while longer.  Those soldiers

14     in Omarska, you've already told us you don't know which unit they were

15     from, but did you conclude about their affiliation to the army only on

16     the basis of uniform too?

17        A.   Also from the way they expressed themselves.

18        Q.   What do you mean?

19        A.   Well, somebody comes in and says, You will now see how the army

20     beats, and there's a policeman next to him in a blue uniform, I can only

21     conclude that he is from the army.

22        Q.   I have no further questions.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

24             Mr. Sejmenovic, this concludes your evidence.  I'd like to thank

25     you very much for coming to The Hague - it wasn't the first time - and

Page 3573

 1     for answering the questions that were put to you by the parties and by

 2     the Bench, and hopefully you'll safely return home.

 3             You may follow the usher.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just one more thing, if you allow

 5     me, Your Honour.

 6             I want to express my great gratitude to you after giving

 7     testimony in this courtroom many times.  I want to express my

 8     thankfulness to you for the great work you are doing on my -- in my own

 9     name and on behalf of all these people who expect justice.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We appreciate that are you following and that you

11     are positive on the work of this Tribunal.  You may follow the usher.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I again would like to apologise to interpreters

14     and those others assisting us.  You well understand that we tried to

15     conclude the testimony of this witness today, but it -- with a little bit

16     of assistance of the parties, we would have been less beyond quarter past

17     2.00.  We adjourn for the day and we will resume tomorrow, Thursday, the

18     4th of October, 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom, I.

19                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.24 p.m.,

20                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 4th day of

21                           October, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.