1 Thursday, 4 October 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would
6 you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President, we are. Good morning to
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: There was one preliminary matter that we wanted
15 to raise with the Chamber, or at least bring to the Chamber's attention,
16 and that relates to the interpretation arrangements for the witness. I'm
17 not sure what the Chamber's aware of exactly.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Let me then try to explain to you. What we know is
19 that if we have two-way translation that we are limited to 3.5 hours
20 today, and one of the options to be discussed with the witness would be
21 that since we have been informed that he understand English well, that he
22 would listen to the English questions and then answer them in his own
23 language, which would then allow us to go on until quarter past 2.00, but
24 of course only if the witness feels comfortable with that solution we
25 would decide to take that path.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: That is correct, Mr. President. I have spoken
2 to the witness just this morning, and he is willing to proceed in this
3 fashion. I also informed him that, of course, if there's any difficulty
4 understanding or communicating to let us know and we would try to make
5 the appropriate accommodation and arrangements.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll then briefly introduce the matter with
7 him again in court.
8 Then we -- could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Could you put your earphones on the
11 English channel at this moment. And could I invite you, unless there is
12 any specific reason, to take your cap off if you wouldn't mind. Yes.
13 Mr. Abdel-Razek, if you first sit down for a second, I would like
14 to discuss a few matters with you prior to -- Mr. Abdel-Razek, we have
15 been informed that you understand the English language well.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Now, we've also been informed that you would prefer
18 to answer questions in your own language, which is Arabic.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We have an Arabic interpreter who will -- who can
21 translate what I say, what you say, but if you would listen to the
22 questions in English, and if you would answer the questions in your own
23 language, then we could have our normal schedule today. If, however, you
24 would want my words to be translated in Arabic also before you answer the
25 question, then we are limited in time because it requires more from the
2 You're entirely free to choose, but if you say, "I'm comfortable
3 in hearing the English and answering in my own language," that would
4 certainly -- would be more efficient for us. But if you would not feel
5 comfortable with that, please tell us so that even the questions are also
6 translated to you in your own language.
7 Now, it may be necessary anyhow that at least part of the
8 questions that are -- the questions that may be put to you by Mr. Lukic
9 will have to be translated anyhow, but for the first part, that is
10 Prosecution and to -- to the extent the Bench also puts questions to you,
11 would that be acceptable? Would you feel comfortable listening to
12 questions in English and answering in Arabic.
13 THE WITNESS: That would be okay, sir. I'll go with that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. That's one. Second, before you give
15 evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. Now we
16 found out only this morning that the Arabic text of the solemn
17 declaration is not exactly the same as the English text. The Arabic text
18 adds a religious element.
19 Now, if you feel more comfortable with adding that religious
20 element, no problem, as long as the text you also pronounce is in
21 accordance with our rules. In English, you could also make the solemn
22 declaration in English. In English it is: "I solemnly declare that I
23 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." If
24 you say without any further religious element I'm happy or I feel
25 comfortable in making the oath in that way, I would even suggest to you
1 that you may take -- make the solemn declaration in English.
2 THE WITNESS: Okay so I'll -- [indiscernible].
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, if you just repeat what I say.
4 I solemnly declare.
5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare.
6 JUDGE ORIE: That I will speak the truth.
7 THE WITNESS: That I will speak the truth.
8 JUDGE ORIE: The whole truth.
9 THE WITNESS: The whole truth.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And nothing but the truth.
11 THE WITNESS: And nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: HUSEIN ALY ABDEL-RAZEK.
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Abdel-Razek.
15 Mr. Vanderpuye, are you ready to start your examination?
16 You'll first be examined by Mr. Vanderpuye. Mr. Vanderpuye is
17 counsel for the Prosecution.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: I am ready, Mr. President. And may I proceed?
19 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning to you,
21 Your Honours. Good morning to counsel. Good morning to you
22 General Mladic.
23 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
24 Q. And good morning to you, General Abdel-Razek. I know you've been
25 here before and today, as the President has indicated, the circumstances
1 are a bit different in terms of the interpretation facilities available.
2 If there's anything that I ask or anything that is put to you during the
3 course of your testimony that is unclear, please let us know right away
4 so that we can address that.
5 Just so the record is clear, could you please state your full
7 A. [In English] Major-General Husein Aly Abdel-Razek.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 A. Retired.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: If I could call up please 65 ter 28433.
11 Q. And while that's coming up let me ask you, sir, do you recall
12 providing or signing a statement, a witness statement, on 16 July, 2002?
13 A. Yes, I remember that, yeah.
14 Q. Do you recognise the document that's in e-court now? If we could
15 go down to the bottom of the page for one moment. Thank you.
16 A. I remember I give this statement.
17 Q. Very well. Do you recognise your signature at the bottom of this
18 page, this statement?
19 A. Yeah, yeah. It's mine.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Can we go, please, to page 30 in e-court.
21 Q. As you can see here, this document is also dated -- appended to
22 the statement and dated 16 July 2002, and it refers to certain
23 corrections and additions to the statement that we have just looked at.
24 Do you recall signing this document as well?
25 A. Yeah, I made this correction and I signed it.
1 Q. Have you had an opportunity to look at the statement and the
2 corrections before you testifying -- before testifying here today?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. And can you confirm that the statement and the corrections at the
5 time that you made them were accurate and truthful?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. General, does your statement as corrected fairly and accurately
8 reflect what you would say if you were to be examined on those issues
10 A. Absolutely.
11 Q. Very well.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would tender the general
13 statement 28433 into evidence at this time.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28433 becomes Exhibit P293, Your
17 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
18 Mr. Abdel-Razek, I noticed that you answered as well in the
19 English language in a very good English. Feel free to use your own
20 language if you're answering the questions, because a translator is
21 there, but if you feel comfortable in speaking English, and I noticed
22 that your English is -- is quite good, then of course do as you feel most
23 comfortable with.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. President, I
2 would also tender the associated exhibits at this time as well. Shall I
3 enumerate them?
4 JUDGE ORIE: If the list which is before us is still valid, then
5 if you'd please follow 09387, 65 ter, Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P294, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: P294 is admitted into evidence. 09388.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P295, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. P09389.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P296, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And admitted into evidence. 09390.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P297, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence. 11208.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P298, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence. The next one is grey
16 Mr. Vanderpuye, which often means that you do not tender it?
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct, Mr. President. Not at this
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then we have still have another video-clip
20 which you --
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's my intention to show those to the witness
22 and seek admission.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So all the associated exhibits, we'll deal
24 with admission when you show it to the witness.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think we've dealt with all of them.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: We have, Mr. President. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have a short summary that I'd like to read
5 into the record followed by a series of questions for the general.
6 From 21 August 1992 to 20 February 1993, General Abdel-Razek was
7 the UNPROFOR Sector Sarajevo commander. He met with the civilian and
8 military leadership of the warring factions, including among others
9 Radovan Karadzic, General Galic, and General Mladic.
10 UN military observers regularly reported to General Abdel-Razek
11 on the shelling of Sarajevo by Bosnian Serb forces. He received reports
12 concerning the civilian casualties of these bombardments and those from
13 sniping attacks. General Abdel-Razek also observed instances of random
14 shelling and the targeting of civilian areas.
15 Together with other senior UN officials, General Abdel-Razek
16 protested sniping and shelling attacks against civilians, civilian
17 targets, and humanitarian targets to members of the Bosnian Serb military
18 and civilian leadership. UN officials sent written protests to
19 President Karadzic and General Mladic, as well as General Galic, Plavsic,
20 Krajisnik, and Koljevic, who routinely denied responsibility for the
21 protested conduct. They claimed that Bosnian government forces shelled
22 their own people in order to draw international intervention or that the
23 VRS was acting in self-defence. Tellingly, General Galic told
24 General Abdel-Razek and others that if the civilians continued to cross
25 the airport, his side would continue shooting at them.
1 In General Galic and the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps,
2 General Abdel-Razek observed a functioning chain of command. VRS
3 personnel appeared professional, well trained, and equipped. In his
4 experience, General Abdel-Razek found Galic himself to be a soldier who
5 clearly acted on superior orders to carry out the shooting and shelling.
6 The Bosnian Serb leadership was frank about its policy of ethnic
7 cleansing. Krajisnik stated as much, as did Plavsic, who acknowledged
8 its unacceptability to the international community. Following the London
9 Conference, Karadzic told General Abdel-Razek explicitly that Muslims
10 were to be removed from Serb territories. He repeated this in January
11 1993. When asked candidly, "What do you want" in terms of a bottom of
12 line, Karadzic told General Abdel-Razek, in the presence of Krajisnik,
13 Plavsic, and Generals Mladic and Gvero, that "If we miss the chance, we
14 will not have it again ... the Muslims will be transferred out of Serb
15 territory because we can't live together." General Abdel-Razek noted the
16 assent of the leaders present, including the accused.
17 Your Honours, that concludes my summary, and I would like to pose
18 some additional questions to the witness.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Vanderpuye.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. General, this statement is from 2002, and I was wondering if you
22 could catch us up as briefly as you can on what you've been doing since
23 you made this statement, professionally.
24 A. [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I was acting as a military advisor in
25 the state of Kuwait when I gave this present statement. I think that
1 this happened in 2002. Following that, I was called to give my statement
2 in the case of General Galic. And I continued working in Kuwait until
3 2011, and I returned following the events that happened in Egypt.
4 Upon my return to Egypt, I was asked to work as an advisor at the
5 Ministry of Defence, and this is my current occupation.
6 Q. Thank you, General. I just wanted to go over, if we could, very
7 briefly your engagement in Sarajevo, and if you could just tell us very
8 briefly what were your day-to-day activities as the commander of Sector
10 A. We used to start our activities on daily routine activities. We
11 used to start with the sector commander briefings, which used to take up
12 to half an hour of our time. And during this briefing, we used to
13 examine all the main events. Then I used to give my instructions
14 according to a particular and well-defined agenda, and this agenda is
15 usually prepared by the operation section under the command of the
16 Chief of Staff of the sector, and it comprises generally the main
17 activities that we are required to undertake on a particular day.
18 Then we used to go each one of us to his own section to follow up
19 on the observers' reports, to follow up on telephone calls we used to
20 receive or to make to the various warring factions, or also requests for
21 interviews or meetings. And we also used to send reports to the higher
22 command in Zagreb.
23 So after gathering all these pieces of information, so up to
24 6.00 p.m. I used to then hold a meeting with my assistant; with the Chief
25 of Staff; and with the chief of operations; and the chief of police; as
1 well as the SMO, the senior military observer. And then we used to
2 follow up on the various reports and information that we received.
3 [In English] Sorry, I would like to add civil affairs should be added to
4 this group.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 A. Am I clear? [Interpretation] Following that we used to draft the
7 report that was to be sent to Zagreb on a 12-hour basis, and it comprises
8 all the various activities that took place in the sector. Then it would
9 be sent and we received instructions from them regarding some main
10 activities or matters, or we follow up on what's happening until we draft
11 the report the following morning. We used to engage in teamwork, and I
12 would like to say from the outset that all the reports that we sent were
13 the fruit of the efforts of all these concerned people.
14 This is on the practical side. And also we used to engage in
15 some urgent matters such as, for instance, a complaint or problems
16 happening in the hospital. For instance, they are short of fuel or they
17 don't have electricity. That's why we used to quickly respond to these
18 requests, because the maternity department in the hospital used to need
19 fuel, electricity, and so on.
20 Q. Let me ask you a little bit more specifically about the source of
21 the information that you relied upon in drafting your reports. I
22 understand that you've said it's the fruit of many people's work, but in
23 terms of the information that you actually relied upon either to draft
24 the reports or subsequently when you went to your meetings to raise with
25 the Bosnian Serb officials and others that you met, what was the source
1 of that information? From where did it primarily come?
2 A. International observers were our main source, in addition to the
3 information that we used to receive through the liaison officers
4 belonging to the various warring factions. They used also to bring us
5 some information stating that some events took place in such area,
6 et cetera. And in such cases we used, for instance, sometimes to send
7 someone in order to double-check this information, because based on our
8 experience there were too many allegations. That's why we used to send
9 someone from the civil affairs or from the operations section or to also
10 assign some international observers who were located next to the area in
12 And I hope that my next point will be very clear. I know that
13 there were too many discussions about what I said then -- that sometimes
14 we used to gather information from the media. We were surrounded by
15 media, and media people, journalists, were deployed everywhere, and they
16 used to come and to give us some information. However, we used to
17 compare their statements, the information they gave us, with what we used
18 to receive from international observers, and this was the basis of our
19 modus operandi.
20 Q. Thank you very much. Let me you ask, did you rely on information
21 during your assignment in Sarajevo Sector -- first, did you rely on
22 information to prepare yourself for that assignment, and did you rely on
23 information from other sources, UN sources and other things, while you
24 were there as well to -- to know more about what the conflict was about
25 and what was occurring in the country?
1 A. As I said earlier, I was working prior to that mission in Angola,
2 and I was about to return to my home country Egypt. However, one year
3 later, I received a request from the Secretary-General asking me --
4 sorry, notifying me, and this was based on a letter by Mr. Goulding,
5 whereby he told me that the Secretary-General would like you to be the
6 commander of the Sarajevo Sector to -- and to replace General MacKenzie,
7 who was a Canadian general. He told me that we contacted Egypt, the
8 Egyptian authorities, and they agreed, and the Secretary-General is keen
9 to know whether you are also interested in this new appointment. Of
10 course, we are soldiers, and when someone tells me Egypt agreed or
11 accepted, then -- then I started engaging in contacts with Mr. Goulding
12 and Mr. Annan in order to give me a briefing about the situation in
13 Yugoslavia in general and in Sarajevo in particular.
14 Q. General, if I could, and I don't mean to cut you off, but did you
15 receive any documentation to review or either in preparation for your
16 assignment or during your assignment about the situation in -- in Bosnia?
17 A. I received reports, detailed reports, about the situation in
18 Yugoslavia in general, starting with the political conflict until the
19 period of time that we were going through or living. Mr. Goulding also
20 told me that there was a suspension of air activities or flying
21 activities on that particular date and that they were deploying
22 tremendous efforts in order to resume aircraft or flying activities.
23 Q. I'd like to show you a document, if I could.
24 A. [In English] Yeah.
25 Q. It's 65 ter 3345, and while that's coming up, you might find it
1 easier if -- if you like, you could remove your headphones since you
2 are -- you'd be listening to me in English, and you won't need to hear, I
3 don't think, the Arabic translation if you're responding to the extent
4 that you can follow it in the transcript. It might make things easier
5 for you in that way, but we can proceed however is most comfortable for
7 A. I'm okay with this.
8 Q. I thought you might be. Okay. Do you recognise this document
9 that we have here in e-court now? It's a document dated 28th of August,
10 1992. It's the Economic and Social Council. You can see the heading on
11 it. What I'd like to do is show you page number 2 of this document. It
12 will be 2 in both languages. And you can see under item 1(A):
13 "Observations Concerning the Situation of Human Rights in the Areas
14 Visited." Under item (A) it refers to "The policy of ethnic cleansing."
15 Now that -- first, is that something that you referred to in your
16 statement? You'll have to answer in the record.
17 A. [Interpretation] Regarding this question and before answering, I
18 would like to clarify one point. In the various UN programmes or
19 agencies throughout the world, we received too many reports about what's
20 happening in the various UN agencies and missions in the framework of
21 co-operation, co-ordination, and also the reassignment of some stuff from
22 one mission to another. So we have been following up since the beginning
23 the events that were happening in Yugoslavia. And let me be very frank
24 with you, I was very sad to see the events unfolding in Yugoslavia
25 because it was a country that was on very good terms with my country,
1 Egypt. And when I was appointed to head the Sarajevo Sector, I was very
2 sad because this was not my will. I wanted to go back to Egypt and to
3 resume my career over there in my home country, but when I received the
4 orders, then I had to abide. And there were too many reports about
5 ethnic cleansing in the media, as -- as well as in the reports that we
6 used to receive from the United Nations, that ethnic cleansing was
7 happening -- taking place in too many areas. It wasn't a new event. I
8 was following up news about ethnic cleansing even before coming to
10 And when I met with the Serbian ambassador in Angola, and he was
11 a friend of mine, we tackled this matter, and he told me that the reality
12 is different from what you read in the reports, but many other
13 ambassadors were -- used to tell him, "Come on. It's already happening."
14 So this was a matter that was known to all. I did not came up with this
15 expression. It was happening. It was taking place before I came to
16 Sarajevo, and it was well known to everybody.
17 Q. Let me show you page 4 of this document, paragraph 7, in both
18 languages. I think it's on page 4.
19 You can see here in paragraph 7 it says -- sorry, "The Special
20 Rapporteur was able to collect credible testimony concerning the policy
21 of ethnic cleansing and the methods applied to achieve its aim.
22 According to the testimony received, the policy has been openly pursued
23 on the territory of those parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia which
24 are controlled by ethnic Serbs."
25 Is this consistent with your observations during the time that
1 you were stationed in Sarajevo?
2 A. I heard about this committee because it was -- that was happening
3 around the same time when I arrived. The instructions that I had
4 received from General Nambiar before arriving to Sarajevo [In English]
5 Yeah, I had to report to him before I go to Sarajevo. [Interpretation]
6 So he focused a lot and stressed a lot upon that point. I told him what
7 were the major challenges from your point of view as a force commander,
8 and he indicated and talked about the heavy shelling against civilians --
9 Q. General, if I could just stop you for one moment.
10 Sorry, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Abdel-Razek.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I noticed that you want to tell us about your
14 experience, but your answers are not always focused on the questions. We
15 are limited in our time, so I would urge you to specifically answer to
16 the question that Mr. Vanderpuye puts to you. The last question was
17 whether what you read in this paragraph 7, whether that is --
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Consistent.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Whether this was consistent with what you
20 experienced at the time you were in Sarajevo.
21 Now -- so what we'd like to know is what you read, whether that's
22 consistent with what you observed. We were not asking to give all of
23 your observations to us, because we might still be here at the end of the
24 day, because you have experienced a lot, I take it, over there. So the
25 question is does -- is this approximately what you observed at the time?
1 Is it consistent with your observations? A simple yes or no would do, or
2 perhaps one or two lines. But Mr. Vanderpuye, if he wants to know more
3 he will ask you.
4 THE WITNESS: Okay, sir.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay, sir. I apologise.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Thank you, General. I take then it is consistent with your
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we could go to page 10 in the B/C/S, and it
13 will be page 8 in the English, paragraph 40. We have to move over in the
14 English. I think I said it was page 8.
15 Q. At paragraph 40, you will see here that it says:
16 "The greatest threat to life at present" -- and remember this is
17 published or dated 28 August 1992.
18 "The greatest threat to life at present comes from the shelling
19 of civilian population centres and the shooting of civilians in besieged
20 towns. In addition, there is a risk that massive numbers of civilians
21 will die from malnutrition, illness, and exposure unless the present
22 siege of various areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina under government control is
23 lifted before the arrival of winter."
24 In terms of the threat to the civilian population as a result of
25 shellings and shootings, is this paragraph consistent with your
1 experience in Sarajevo?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Let me show you another paragraph, and this is at page --
4 paragraph 48, page 10 English, page 12 B/C/S. In this paragraph - and
5 I'll just read out the section, it will come up in a minute - it says:
6 "The greatest difficulties are undoubtedly experienced in
7 Sarajevo where UNPROFOR and UNHCR offices and vehicles frequently come
8 under attack from shelling and snipers."
9 Is that consistent with your experience?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. And finally let me show you paragraph 58, page 11 in the English,
12 page 14 in the B/C/S. And it comes under the heading of
13 "Recommendations" in this report. It says that:
14 "The heavy weaponry on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina should
15 immediately be neutralised by grouping them under the supervision of
16 UNPROFOR if necessary."
17 And then it says:
18 "The strict implementation of agreements adopted and the
19 principles endorsed by the London Conference in this regard is
21 First, are you familiar with the implementation of this
22 recommendation just in a general sense?
23 A. [Interpretation] In fact, that was encouraged at the beginning,
24 because when I first arrived to Sarajevo, the London Conference had just
25 finished, and I learned from General Nambiar that there was commitment
1 from the Serbs to collect all the weapons in one area. That way it would
2 be possible for the United Nations to monitor them. But in reality, that
3 did not happen.
4 Q. All right. We'll come back to that in a moment.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document
6 into evidence.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 03345 becomes Exhibit P299,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. Please proceed,
11 Mr. Vanderpuye.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. You noted in your statement -- several points in your statement
14 that you did meet rather regularly with the leadership of the warring
15 parties. I'd like to focus you, if I could, on your meetings with the
16 Bosnian Serb leadership, President Karadzic and General Mladic,
17 Biljana Plavsic, and so on. You outlined at paragraph 60 of your
18 statement, and there's no need to bring it up, a number of issues that
19 you raised, including the shelling of UN headquarters, UN facilities, the
20 shelling of civilians and civilian targets. I'd like to ask you how
21 often was it that you raised the issue of shelling civilians and civilian
22 targets, snipings, and so on, in your dealings with the membership of the
23 Bosnian Serb leadership? How frequently did that occur?
24 A. That happened very frequently. When I first arrived, the
25 shelling and the sniping, all this was taking place regularly in -- in
1 the first two months that followed my arrival. At the beginning of year
2 1993, this started to decrease a little bit, because many diplomats and
3 many UN dignitaries, Mr. Owen, for example, and Mr. Vance, they used to
4 visit quite frequently, and that was an attempt on our behalf to improve
5 the situation in Sarajevo, because when people knew that there were
6 foreign dignitaries visiting, the situation usually calmed down. But the
7 shelling was quite heavy in the first two, three months following my
8 arrival until the end of the year, and it was almost on a daily basis.
9 It happened almost on a daily basis, and we had reports about people
10 being killed and injured.
11 Q. Did you in particular raise these issues most frequently with the
12 civilian leadership or with the military leadership?
13 A. With both of them.
14 Q. And in respect of raising the issues with either of the civilian
15 leadership or the military leadership, was the result that you were able
16 to observe on the ground any different?
17 A. What was said in the meetings was encouraging, and we heard a lot
18 of promises. The atmosphere used to be very -- very positive in those
19 meetings. However, the problem was always in the field in practice.
20 There were militias, there were people who were not disciplined, who were
21 not committed to these orders and instructions, and they carried weapons.
22 So the situation on the ground was totally different from what we agreed
23 upon or discussed in meetings.
24 Q. You mentioned something here about orders and instructions, and
25 to what are you referring there? You said there were people on the
1 ground who were not disciplined, who were not committed to these orders
2 and instructions, and I wondered what you meant by that.
3 A. As I already mentioned, even the leaders of the warring factions,
4 they used to talk about the presence of people in civilian clothing
5 carrying weapons and blocking the movements of UN convoys in certain
6 areas. And in one of the meetings with General Galic I raised that
7 issue, and I think that he told me that he has given instructions to all
8 the factions -- to all the individuals that are not within the military
9 order, that do not follow the military order, and told them that they
10 should put an end to that situation. But the situation remained as is.
11 He couldn't even achieve that, because there were many of these
12 individuals, and they were creating chaos. And this is what civil wars
13 are all about everywhere.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could I again intervene for a second. I think the
15 question was about whether you observed on the ground any difference, and
16 that question was related to complaints about shelling and sniping. What
17 you're telling us about what happened on the ground seems to be more
18 focused on your freedom of movement as international observers. I think
19 Mr. Vanderpuye was primarily interested to know whether after such
20 meetings on the ground shelling and sniping were any different from what
21 they were before the meeting.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We used to agree, sir, during our
23 meetings on certain things, positive things. For example, to ensure the
24 free work and the free movement of the United Nations and in order to
25 establish an atmosphere of trust between the United Nations and other
1 parties. And whenever we moved to the ground, we used to notice that on
2 the ground the situation was completely different from what we had agreed
3 upon, for the reasons that I just mentioned.
4 JUDGE ORIE: But apart from what you discussed in establishing a
5 better relationship, you also raised the issue of sniping and shelling --
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- during the meetings. Did that change after you
8 had complained about it during the meetings? Was the shelling less? Was
9 the sniping less?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The situation never changed,
11 and it keeped happening over and over despite the agreements. And
12 whenever I went back to see them, I used to hear a lot of allegations
13 that this side did this or that, and we had to retaliate. So none of the
14 sides really committed to the agreement, whether the agreements between
15 the warring factions or -- or the agreement -- other agreements -- and --
16 and the forces on the ground also did not commit to them. And the
17 shelling continued, the bombing as well.
18 Q. All right. I'd just like to focus on those specific issues if we
19 could, and we -- you talked about a lot of the interruption or
20 interference with the freedom of movement of UN forces, but I'd like to
21 focus specifically on matters of shelling and sniping. With respect to
22 those issues, did you raise them specifically with General Galic both
23 personally and in writing?
24 A. On many occasions, whenever we had meetings and -- that issue was
25 on our agenda for the meeting.
1 Q. Did you communicate your protests or objections to the sniping
2 and shelling beyond General Galic, to President Karadzic and to
3 General Mladic?
4 A. That also was discussed and raised in many meetings that I used
5 to have with Mr. Karadzic in the presence of General Mladic and
6 Momcilo Krajisnik and Mrs. Plavsic. We used to raise this issue -- a
7 number of these issues with these people, including all the actions that
8 were affecting civilians, the lives of civilians.
9 Q. Thank you, General.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, this is a good time for the
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll take the break of approximately 20
13 minutes, Mr. Abdel-Razek. By the way, I address you as Mr. Abdel-Razek
14 not to be impolite but that's my usual way of addressing persons, by Mr.
15 or Mrs., rather than by rank or title.
16 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, this is the second time to stand
17 before you. I really -- I remember you very well.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's a different matter. Could you please
19 follow the usher.
20 THE WITNESS: Okay, thank you.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break and resume at 10 minutes to
24 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
2 The Chamber has understood that the witness is, for medical
3 reasons, unable to be with us any longer than until 12.30, and then we
4 wonder how we would use the time which then remains today because the
5 witness will only be able to return tomorrow.
6 Mr. Groome.
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, so that we don't spend any of this
8 limited time today, I would inform the Chamber that we received notice
9 from VWS this morning that the next witness, RM081, it's their
10 recommendation that that witness not begin his testimony today.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. GROOME: Perhaps we can talk about that in more detail at the
13 12.00 break about we can do.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber received the same information.
15 We'll consider it during the next break.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, you may proceed.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
19 Q. General, I'd like to show you a few documents. Let me start with
20 65 ter 10632. First, do you recognise this document? I see you
21 squinting. Are you having trouble seeing it?
22 A. [In English] No, it's okay.
23 Q. Do you recognise it?
24 A. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25 Q. It refers to the heavy weapons in BiH. It indicates that it's
1 from Goulding to Nambiar, and it's dated 28 August 1992, on the heels of
2 the London Conference. If we can go to the next page, it refers to the
3 disposition of heavy weaponry. In the second sentence it reads that:
4 "The weaponry, once grouped, would be put under the continuous
5 supervision of permanent UN observers."
6 Does this correspond to your understanding or information
7 concerning what was to happen with respect to Bosnian Serb heavy weaponry
8 in your sector?
9 A. [Interpretation] To my recollection, this was sent from
10 Mr. Goulding to General Nambiar, and such similar documents were sent in
11 a copy to our command. And Nambiar also mentioned it to me and told me
12 that the matter seems to be encouraging and that is a kind of agreement.
13 According to what Mr. Goulding told him earlier, that Mr. Karadzic and
14 Dr. Koljevic were committed to the gathering of heavy weapons and some
15 particular places and subject to control and supervision by the United
17 Q. Thank you, General.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would like to move to admit
19 this document.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10632 becomes Exhibit P300, Your
23 JUDGE ORIE: P300 is admitted into evidence.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE:
25 Q. I'd like to show you 65 ter 10633, please. This is a document,
1 as you can see. It indicates it's an outgoing code cable, and it's from
2 General Nambiar to Mr. Goulding, dated 14 September 1992, and it concerns
3 a meeting with Dr. Karadzic and Colonel Siber, and its says report from
4 Sector Sarajevo. Are you familiar with it?
5 A. [In English] The report that I sent to him about this meeting.
6 Q. Yes. If we could please go to the second page. I'd like to ask
7 you just a couple of questions about it. There you can see your name in
8 the right-hand side of the box at the top of the page indicating
9 releasing official; is that right?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Okay. And then you can see the discussion, the meeting, under
12 items 1(a), and so on. First can you confirm that this is a meeting you
13 did in fact have -- you did in fact have with Dr. Karadzic?
14 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
15 Q. And did it concern the heavy weapons that were discussed in the
16 previous document and the agreement or your understanding of agreement
17 with respect to their disposition?
18 A. Heavy weapons were to be gathered in locations under the
19 supervision of the United Nations, and this was one of the main topics
20 that we discussed.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to move this document
22 into evidence as well.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10633 becomes Exhibit P301, Your
1 JUDGE ORIE: P301 is admitted into evidence.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. General, in your statement as concerns what happened to the
4 agreement or understanding with respect to the heavy weapons, you
5 indicate that it never actually came under the control, the supervision,
6 of the UN in accordance with the understanding that had previously been
7 reached. Is that fair to say?
8 A. Yes. Yes. I confirm it.
9 Q. And in your statement you indicate that this was the result of --
10 or in your estimation, was the result of a decision that had been made
11 contrary to the prior agreement by the Serb -- Bosnian Serb leadership.
12 Is that fair to say?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you explain a little bit about that? In your statement at
15 paragraph 28, you say that General Mladic was behind President Karadzic's
16 decision with respect to the disposition of heavy weapons.
17 A. In fact, what Mr. Karadzic mentioned was very clear during the
18 London Conference, and also what General Nambiar told me was very clear.
19 Also, the letter sent by Mr. Goulding to General Nambiar was very clear,
20 and all of them were holding signs of optimisms. However, we suddenly
21 found out that the explanation by Dr. Karadzic was totally different from
22 what he stated during the London Conference and what he committed to
23 respect during the Geneva negotiations. He openly told me that Muslims
24 are too numerous, and we don't have any means but these weapons. And he
25 told me that we should gather all these weapons in some locations and the
1 UN should control the weapons in these locations. And when things
2 reached this level, I think that underneath it lies a military vision
3 that came up and was added to his own visions, and his position differed
4 accordingly. And when we discussed the military matters, we should
5 all -- always mention the top level in the chain of command.
6 Q. To your understanding in the circumstances that you were in, I
7 take it that you assessed that that would have been General Mladic.
8 A. [In English] Yes.
9 Q. In terms of your experience as a general yourself and your
10 extensive experience in the armed forces, here you've assessed that --
11 well, let me ask you this way: What is your assessment of the
12 interaction between the top levels of the military and the political --
13 the political branch in Bosnia -- in Bosnia during the time that you were
14 there? What is your assessment of their inter-relationship between those
15 two parts of the government?
16 A. [Interpretation] I used to see that there was a co-operation,
17 consent, and harmony in terms of the relationship between the political
18 command and the military command. Also, I was notifying them of all the
19 points that I would be discussing with them. And, of course, they had
20 the chance and the opportunity to co-ordinate their statements and
21 positions and answers regarding the matters that I would be raising. I
22 hereby confirm that the relationship was interactive and also very
24 Q. You mentioned a little while ago the chain of command, and in
25 fact you noted at your statement at paragraph 58 that General Mladic was
1 a strict disciplinarian and his subordinates feared him and that he had
2 the loyalty of his troops. I wonder if you could first explain to us
3 whether or not this is something that you observed personally while you
4 were stationed in Sarajevo?
5 A. [No interpretation] ... and I always reiterate that this is my
6 own personal impression. And I can say --
7 Q. Let me just stop you for one second. Part of your answer,
8 unfortunately, wasn't translated into the record, and I wondered if --
9 I'm sorry, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it in your hands.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. I wonder if you could perhaps repeat your answer, and I apologise
13 for that.
14 A. [Interpretation] I would like to say that as soldiers, we can say
15 that a certain leader is a strong leader and -- if he enjoys the respect
16 and the loyalty of his staff, and I can say that General Mladic was
17 belonging to this category of military commanders. He seemed to me to be
18 a strong commander, and he is a charismatic leader, and he always used to
19 be mentioned by his officers as a respectful commander. And when he was
20 walking around, he was always surrounded by his officers, and we do not
21 miss -- or misinterpret the personality of military commanders when it
22 comes to us as soldiers.
23 Q. Were you able to make that assessment in your dealings with
24 General Galic, for example, or with General Gvero?
25 A. Yes. When discussing these matters with them, I used always to
1 see these characteristics.
2 Q. In your dealings with General Galic, first I'd like to ask you
3 could you comment on the professionality, or lack thereof, of
4 General Galic as you encountered him during the time that you were in
6 A. My assessment of General Galic was the following one: I think
7 that he used to be a commander that obeyed orders as he used to receive
8 them. And if I was to take him to another area or to another assignment,
9 he wouldn't be able to interact with me. He seemed to me as he was a
10 commander that was strictly obeying the orders he was receiving. At the
11 end of the day, he was a professional officer.
12 Q. I'd like to show you 65 ter -- 65 ter 9648. This, as you can
13 see, is an order from the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps,
14 General Galic, and he's directing subordinate units of the corps with
15 respect to the use of weapons, in effect prohibiting the use of certain
16 weapons, certain calibres, until beginning 10 October 1992 up until
17 further notice. As you can see, the order is dated 10 October 1992.
18 A. [In English] Yes.
19 Q. First, can you recall -- and it appears to be that no such heavy
20 weapons were to be used from this moment forward. Is that your
21 understanding of this order as well?
22 A. Such a document would have been sent following intensive protests
23 or complaints, but it wasn't respected. And according to my
24 recollection, he told me that he issued this order, but it was up to the
25 other party or side to observe it. In all cases, this order was never
2 Q. Thank you, General.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would like to tender this
4 exhibit as well.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Sorry. Yes. Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 09648 becomes Exhibit P302, Your
8 JUDGE ORIE: P302 is admitted into evidence.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. If I could show the
10 witness, please, 65 ter 10738.
11 Q. Do you recognise this document, General? It indicates note for
12 Thornberry. Do you know who Thornberry is?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. And it's dated 8 October 1992. And it says: "This morning upon
15 your question I called Mr. Ahtisaari in his Geneva office and reported to
16 him the following."
17 A. Usually this kind of document would be sent by the civil affairs,
18 and he is the subordinate of Mr. Thornberry. He used to prepare such
19 reports and submit them to me in order to discuss the humanitarian
20 problems, whether from a military perspective or with regards to the lack
21 of materials.
22 Q. Who would that be?
23 A. At that time in October, I think it was Mr. Abdel-Razek,
24 Adnan Abdel-Razek.
25 Q. With respect to what's discussed here in paragraph 1, this is two
1 days before you see the order from General Galic, it says:
2 "The general mood of Sarajevo people has reached the lowest level
3 that I have seen since last April. The lack of water and electricity
4 together with the continuing shelling of civilian targets have pushed
5 people to the edge of tolerance and caused a high degree of despair and
7 That consistent with your observations during this period of
9 A. Yes. As I already mentioned, the shelling during the three first
10 months after my arrival to Sarajevo, the shelling was very heavy. There
11 were many problems, and the civilians were heavily affected, and really
12 that was the atmosphere that was prevalent at the time.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. Mr. President. I would like to
14 tender this document as well.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10738 becomes Exhibit P303, Your
18 JUDGE ORIE: P303 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed,
19 Mr. Vanderpuye.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd like to show the
21 witness 65 ter 9389, please. Okay. I understand it's already P296.
22 Q. You may recognise this document as well. It's indicated here as
23 an outgoing cable from General Nambiar to Mr. Goulding, and it concerns a
24 letter that was received from General Mladic. The date of this document
25 is 15 September 1992. And if we can go to the next page, I'll -- I'll
1 show you what I'm interested in. Thank you.
2 General, with respect to this document, can I ask why is it
3 specifically sent to General Mladic as opposed to General Galic or anyone
4 else that you might have been dealing with from Sector Sarajevo?
5 A. When there are lots of acts of violence in several sectors,
6 usually a letter is sent signed by the force commander. If the acts of
7 violence were limited to one specific sector, the sector commander, upon
8 his own initiative or upon the directives of the force commander, can
9 raise the issue that led to these acts of violence with the relevant
10 parties. But let's suppose that the acts of shelling and acts of
11 violence were -- were widespread. In various sectors, the letter would
12 be addressed from the force commander to the higher commander.
13 Q. And in relation to the substance that's discussed in this letter
14 at paragraphs 3 and 4, in paragraph 3 specifically, it says:
15 "Allow me to convey to you my deep dismay at the indiscriminate
16 shelling of civilian targets in Sarajevo and Bihac yesterday."
17 This is dated 15 September. I'll read to you that part, and then
18 in paragraph 4, the second sentence reads that:
19 "Regrettably, we are yet to see concrete proof of the spirit of
20 the London Agreement."
21 Now, with respect to the substance of these -- of these two
22 paragraphs, was that your experience also with respect to what you
23 observed in the Sarajevo Sector?
24 A. [In English] Yes, sir.
25 Q. Thank you, General. I would like to move on to a different area.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask you something, Mr. Vanderpuye. In your
2 list of document it is said Nambiar Satish letter to Mladic, Ratko
3 regarding indiscriminate shelling of Sarajevo, dated 15th of September,
4 1992. This is a letter from Mr. Nambiar to Mr. Goulding, not to Mladic,
5 but I would like to ask the witness if he can say something about the
6 meaning of what is written on the bottom of this page,
7 "Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic." Have you any idea why his name is
8 mentioned on the bottom of that page?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is what we call a circulation
10 of documents. For example, if Mr. Nambiar sends any message to any high
11 commander, we receive a copy of that document at the sector, at the
12 relevant sector. And if the issue is related to agreements, a copy is
13 sent to the relevant person at the United Nations, and at the time it was
14 Mr. Goulding. Also, a copy is sent to Mr. Vance and Mr. Owen. This is
15 how a document is circulated in the UN jobs.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you saying that this document was only
17 circulated among UNPROFOR officers and not addressed to people outside
18 UNPROFOR; is that correct?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, if you look at the person to
20 whom the letter is addressed, the letter says, "My dear General." This
21 letter was addressed by Mr. Nambiar, and it's signed by him. It's
22 addressed to Mr. Mladic. A copy is sent just for info, but it is
23 personally and directly addressed to General Mladic. And if you look at
24 the content, this clarifies it.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Perhaps if we can go to the cover page that
1 might assist -- that might assist, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for this clarification.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And the cover letter deals with two letters. Would
4 we see the other one of the 10th of September as well?
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm afraid that's not on my exhibit list, no,
6 Mr. President. But we can see from this letter that -- the letter that's
7 attached, it says letter dated 10 September, received from
8 General Mladic, and a reply thereto is attached. We don't have the reply
9 but we have the letter.
10 JUDGE ORIE: No. The letter is of the -- no. The letter is
11 dated the 10th of September and apparently received from General Mladic.
12 What you are presenting us is the --
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Response.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- I think the reply. The response.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And why is the other letter not attached any more so
17 that we better understand to what it is a response?
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's a fair question, Your Honour, and I'll
19 look into it and I'll find out why it's not attached. For the purpose of
20 this witness, however, I would still tender -- well, it is already
21 admitted, I believe, so I --
22 JUDGE ORIE: It is admitted already.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: I won't belabour the point. I will find the
24 other one or look into why we can't find it, if that will assist the
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. I'd like to show you a short video-clip if I could. It's 65 ter
4 22385A. And we can just play it straight through.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 MR. VANDERPUYE:
7 Q. Before I go on to the next clip, I just want to ask you briefly,
8 do you recognise what you were seeing there?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what do you recognise it to be?
11 A. I can see here Mr. Owen and General Morillon and myself. We
12 started at the Presidency and then we moved on to Pale, and there we were
13 received by Mr. Karadzic. There was also Dr. Koljevic and
14 General Mladic. Afterwards, we were joined by Mr. Krajisnik,
15 Momcilo Krajisnik.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. Mr. President, I'd like to tender
17 this clip before we go to the next one.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I understand you do not want to rely on any
19 part spoken on the clip?
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: On this part, no.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 23385A becomes Exhibit P304, Your
24 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd like to show
1 65 ter 22385B. I believe we do have a transcript of this part of the
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, waiting for the video, I'm also
4 looking at the clock. Your indication was one hour and a half, isn't it?
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: It is, Mr. President. I'm quite close.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Quite close.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. VANDERPUYE:
11 Q. I've stopped it here at it looks like 16:04. Do you recognise
12 the individual coming up there in the middle of the screen to the right
13 of David Owen?
14 A. That meeting was on the following day, because we didn't finish
15 the discussions on the first day. So we went back to meet him a second
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could I stop you. The question simply was who's the
18 person to the right of Mr. Owen, and I take it that Mr. Vanderpuye wanted
19 to refer to a person with the blue beret.
20 THE WITNESS: To the right is [Interpretation] This is
21 Dr. Koljevic.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE:
23 Q. You mean the far right on the screen?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Okay. Let's start from the left. If you can tell us, who's
1 there on the left?
2 A. Dr. Owen, myself, General Morillon, and Dr. Karadzic,
3 Dr. Koljevic.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. We can keep playing it from this
5 point forward.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think that the transcript is not complete. If
7 you can clarify that, Mr. Vanderpuye. One person is missing.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE:
9 Q. Did you see yourself in the clip that we just played?
10 A. [In English] Would you have it back, please, a little bit.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we play it again or go a bit -- a little
12 bit --
13 [Video-clip played]
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Mr. Owen shaking hands with
15 Mr. Karadzic. This is Dr. Koljevic and General Mladic, and this is
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: For the record, that's at 16.7 in the video.
18 That is reference to General Abdel-Razek. Okay. We can play it from
19 this point forward, I think.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Mr. Owen.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE:
23 Q. Yes. Can you tell us where is this --
24 A. And I'm to his left. This is in the meeting room. The UN party
25 is to the right, the UN side, and I can see in the picture the special
1 secretary Major Rida, and myself, and to my right is Mr. Owen, and next
2 to him is General Morillon. To the other side I can see Mr. Karadzic,
3 and to his left General Mladic, and I cannot identify who is he talking
5 Q. Okay. We'll play it through from this point. Thank you,
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to admit this video.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want to rely on any text?
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: I do intend to rely on the transcript.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then we should play it again and then it should be
12 translated to us. That's the routine in this courtroom.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note --
15 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please. The interpreters wanted to
16 address us.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, the -- the -- it is by Mr. Owen in
18 English, by Lord Owen. What do we have to interpret? And the transcript
19 contains one mistake. It says "announced" instead of "unannounced." "I
20 went completely unannounced," Lord Owen said.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Vanderpuye --
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: The English I expect to be translated for the
24 accused in B/C/S. Yes. No, I'm -- I know that perhaps I'm looking at
25 the wrong booth, but that's the reason why it is played for a second
2 Mr. Vanderpuye, would you have verified the transcript where
3 apparently the word "announced" should be "unannounced." Check that
4 perhaps together with the Defence and thank the booth for verifying the
5 transcript. That was exactly the purpose of this exercise. And now we
6 play it again and now it will be translated so that Mr. Mladic also can
7 have the translation from English. Please proceed.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 "Koljevic: Hi, welcome to the Republika Srpska.
10 "Karadzic: General Mladic.
11 "Mladic: General Mladic. Dobrodosli.
12 "Owen: Nice to meet you. Dr. Karadzic, pleased to meet you.
13 "Karadzic: Welcome."
14 "Owen: I went round the hospital in Sarajevo today, and I ...
15 this was very, very, very depressing. I don't expect these days to go
16 into the recovery room and find a shell has gone through it. It's of the
17 recovery room. I went completely unannounced. I didn't tell anybody. I
18 didn't take any press. I didn't make anything of it, I just went as a
20 "Morillon: ... mistake, because on the agreement it was
21 reviewed. It was in case of a cessation and a ceasefire."
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think I heard in English "unannounced" as
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Indeed.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So it must be a mistake there.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I would -- I would
2 tender the video subject to a corrected transcript. Obviously we'll fix
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The number would be, Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 22385B becomes Exhibit P305, Your
7 JUDGE ORIE: And is -- I would then mark it for identification
8 until we have the new accurate transcript.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President. That makes a
10 lot of sense.
11 If I could show the witness the next document, please.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I'm a bit concerned about -- you said you
13 were close. How close are you?
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: I've got two documents to show him and then I'll
15 be done.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Try to do it as efficiently as possible.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. If I could show the witness, please,
19 65 ter 3771. We don't have anything on the monitors. Thank you.
20 Q. General, this is a document. It's a report that's issued on the
21 30th of September, 1992, and you can see that the headline refers to
22 "Serbs carry out," and it says, "ethnic cleansing operation in Bosnian
24 In the second paragraph of this document it refers to an
25 estimated 150 people forced from their homes in Grbavica, and the Bosnian
1 police estimate this as 300 -- I'm sorry, 200 people. First of all, do
2 you have a recollection of an event like this transpiring during the time
3 you were in Sarajevo?
4 A. [In English] Yes.
5 Q. Did you raise this issue with Bosnian Serb leadership to any
7 A. Yes. We mentioned that more than once with Mr. Galic --
8 Mr. Galic and Ms. Plavsic.
9 Q. I'd just like to go to page 2 of this document just for a moment,
10 and you will see your name referenced in the middle of the page in
11 English where it says:
12 "UNPROFOR Sarajevo Commander Egyptian Brigadier-General Husein
13 Abdel-Razek also met Bosnian Serb leaders for several hours on Wednesday
14 at their military headquarters in Lukavica just south of the Bosnian
15 capital to continue seeking agreements."
16 Do you have a recollection of these meetings?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And it concerned, as is indicated here, the restoration of
19 electricity and water; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to introduce -- or I'd
22 like to admit this document as well.
23 JUDGE ORIE: What is it exactly, Mr. Vanderpuye? It says that --
24 the heading is 45 of 500 the --
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's a press release.
1 JUDGE ORIE: It's a press release.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 03771 becomes Exhibit P306, Your
6 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd like to show the
8 witness 65 ter --
9 JUDGE ORIE: It's described as a press report. Is a press
10 release the same as a press report? I'm just --
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I understand it to be the same.
12 It's -- it's a report of the events like a newspaper report would be of
13 the events in question.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And who is Mr. Paul Basken?
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm afraid I don't know who Mr. Paul Basken is,
16 Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Is he a UN official or --
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: No.
19 JUDGE ORIE: He's not.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: He's not a UN official, no.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there was no objection, but I'd like to know
22 exactly what kind of document this is. It's not fully clear to me yet.
23 If we do not know who issued it --
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct, Mr. President. That's why I was
25 asking the witness about the facts that are reported in it to determine
1 whether or not they're accurate for the purposes of its admissibility.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. If I could show the
4 witness, please, 65 ter 3773.
5 Q. This is a document that's dated 30th September 1992, like the
6 press report we just saw, and in the top you can see it says "UN CIVPOL
7 Occurrence Report Sector Sarajevo." Are you familiar with this report,
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And it says the nature of event, expulsion of Muslim citizens
11 from Grbavica. In quotes -- I mean in parentheses it says Serbian
12 occupied territory.
13 If we go to the bottom of the page, and I think we may have to
14 go -- well, we can start on the -- on this page in the B/C/S and then go
15 to the next page, but it talks about at 1645 the unit comes across some
16 25 people with luggages, and then if you look further down the payment,
17 you'll see that it reference to some 300 Muslim civilians having been
18 expelled by the Serbs during the day from the area of Grbavica, 150 of
19 them gathered at the Bristol Hotel. Are you familiar -- first of all, is
20 this the same event that's reported in the -- in the press report we just
21 looked at?
22 A. Yes, I remember it.
23 Q. And this indicates that this report is from Sector Sarajevo. Is
24 this part of the structure of your unit, your command?
25 A. Yes. Mr. Adnan went there, and I think that he was accompanied
1 by Major Rida, our own secretary, so that they can double-check what was
2 happening there.
3 Q. Thank you, General.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to tender this document as well,
5 Mr. President. And that will conclude my direct, as I'm out of time, and
6 I appreciate your indulgence.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 03773 becomes Exhibit P307, Your
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, and it is admitted into evidence.
11 Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye. How going to cross-examine the
12 witness? Will it be --
13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. My
14 name is Milan Petrusic and I will cross-examine the general.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course we are familiar with your name.
16 But, Mr. Petrusic, the Chamber is inclined to continue sitting until
17 12.30 and not have the short break, because we most likely will not sit
18 any further today because the next witness is not ready to start
19 testimony, and we have to conclude at 12.30 the examination at least for
21 Mr. Abdel-Razek, you would be available again tomorrow?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Petrusic, please proceed.
24 Mr. Abdel-Razek, Mr. Petrusic you'll find him to your left and he
25 is a member of the Defence of Mr. Mladic.
1 Mr. Petrusic, and could you give us an indication of how much
2 time you'd need?
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'll gladly answer.
5 First I'd like to know, though, whether we will follow the same schedule
6 tomorrow and finish by 12.30. If so, I will limit my examination
7 accordingly and possibly even leave some time for redirect for the OTP.
8 JUDGE ORIE: That is appreciated, Mr. Petrusic. You may proceed.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Petrusic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] General, sir, can you tell us briefly something
11 about the information you received in your country? You received it from
12 the then Yugoslav ambassador, and I'm interested in how useful that
13 information was and how accurate and truthful did you find it to be as
14 compared to the situation that you found upon your arrival in Sarajevo?
15 A. Regarding this question, at that time I was not in Egypt. I was
16 in Angola, and I was in charge of the observers' mission. And during my
17 assignment in Angola I had many contacts, including the Serbian
18 ambassador in Angola, and I was keen to learn from him in person the
19 position and the political background. We used to held meetings, regular
20 meetings, be it in his embassy or in the Egyptian embassy in Angola, and
21 we used to discuss these matters based on my discussions with him, based
22 also on media reports, and also based on what I received from
23 Mr. Goulding and Mr. Annan I was able to have some knowledge about the
24 situation on the ground.
25 Q. General, sir, the first topic I'd like to discuss has to do with
1 paragraphs 1838 and 106. It refers to your efforts in dealing with
2 humanitarian issues such as the supply of water, electricity, and gas to
3 the city. In that regard, I wanted to ask you the following: Did you
4 know that even prior to your arrival there were problems concerning the
5 meeting of humanitarian needs and supply in the region of Sarajevo?
6 A. When I arrived to Sarajevo, the problems were already existent,
7 but these problems were not prevailing all over the city. Some areas
8 were provided with electricity, water. However, as a result of heavy
9 shelling, the situation started to deteriorate, and we were starting the
10 season of winter, cold weather, and this -- this is what aggravated the
11 problem, and this is why the problem was discussed and tackled at all
12 levels. But the problem was already existent before I arrived.
13 Q. In these talks were you aware that the transmission lines for
14 supplying electricity in all of Republika Srpska, including Sarajevo,
15 went mainly through areas controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska?
16 A. This was a technical issue, and I asked Mr. Ganic and
17 Mrs. Plavsic to appoint experts along with the experts or technical
18 advisors of the United Nations professional technical engineers - they
19 were extremely professional - and to tell me where lies the problem and
20 how can we find a solution to this problem, be it in the territories that
21 were under the control of the Presidency or the Bosnians.
22 I remember in this regard an area located between Sarajevo and
23 Ilidza, close to Ilidza, and they said that transmission lines can be
24 repaired and electricity restored, and we can thus improve the supply of
25 water, et cetera.
1 I offered an initiative to establish a technical working group,
2 and this group was successful to a large extent, and I received -- when I
3 was commander of the sector, I received thanks from various factions for
4 achieving success in this matter, and we were happy to have electricity
5 restored as well water. However, whenever clashes used to erupt, all
6 these solutions would be -- would end.
7 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] in keeping with that, I would like
8 to ask for 1D330. Page 3 in B/C/S and page 2 in the English version.
9 Q. And may I ask you to focus on paragraph 4 in English, which
10 begins with the words "To repair transmission installations." It's the
11 third paragraph from the bottom of this page. "To repair relay
12 facilities." Have you found it, General?
13 A. [In English] No, not yet. Number 4? What's on here is until
14 article 3.
15 Q. It's the third paragraph from the bottom which begins with the
16 words "To repair relay facilities."
17 A. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got it.
18 Q. These are minutes from the session of the Government of Republika
19 Srpska held just before your arrival. Can we conclude that even before
20 you arrived, the Government of Republika Srpska raised this problem of
21 electricity and water supply to the highest level, which we see from the
22 very fact that it's discussed at cabinet meetings? Would you agree with
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, do you want the witness to conclude
25 this on the basis of this document, because whether the witness has any
1 personal knowledge about it, we do not know. If you want to bring this
2 to the attention of the Chamber, it could perhaps be done by other means
3 such as to tender this document from the bar table. But to ask the
4 witness to read it, if he has no knowledge about it, and then to ask him
5 to confirm that what is written here is true or whether that he can
6 confirm that, that's of course a bit problematic as you well understand.
7 Mr. Vanderpuye, would there be any objection against having this
8 document in evidence where it -- at least that's what the Defence says,
9 where it is showing that matters were discussed at a certain level at a
10 certain date.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, Mr. President. I accept Mr. Petrusic's
12 representation with respect to the document.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, these are minutes. So if the witness knows
14 anything about it, ask him. If not, there is no objection against
15 drawing our attention to what was said in the minutes of the 8th of
16 August, 1992, the minutes of the session of the Serb Republic of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina government. Proceed as you --
18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your leave,
19 I'd like to explain briefly. My intention was to present this document
20 to the general, because the document clearly shows that the intention of
21 the Bosnian Serb government was to resolve this problem, and the
22 intention was there even before the general arrived.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You're giving evidence whether there was intention
24 or not. What we see on our screen is that apparently the matter has been
25 discussed if the minutes are accurate, minutes during this session. Now,
1 if the witness knows anything about this, ask him. If the witness is
2 supposed just to read the document and say, Well, if that's the case,
3 there was an intention. And of course you ask him to do something, you'd
4 better ask the Chamber to do.
5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 Q. General, do you know something that's in this document that's
7 still on the screen about activities undertaken by the Government of
8 Republika Srpska to resolve the problem of power shortages and blackouts?
9 A. Sir, I can confirm that in all the meetings, my meetings, with
10 Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Karadzic, whether meetings with myself or in the
11 presence of Mr. Goulding and Mr. Morillon, and meetings with Mr. Owen, in
12 all these meetings what we heard was very positive. And I recall
13 Mr. Karadzic saying, "This is my city, and I'm keen on providing it with
14 lots of things." But we used to notice that on the other side -- or at
15 the other hand, they wanted to repair the telephone lines or something
16 like that. So it was all very relative. So we heard very positive
17 comments. The intentions were very good. So both sides had control of
18 some of the utilities, and it was obviously a war game between the two.
19 I think what matters are not the intentions but the actions, these things
20 that were essential for the people, for the individuals living there.
21 All of us at the level of command of the UN or forces on the ground, we
22 were all keen on achieving this.
23 But to get back to your question, yes, there were intentions,
24 and, yes, they did provide us with technicians. And I organised that
25 meeting at the airport, and I attended the meeting, and they did do some
1 work, but some militias were shooting at them, especially from the
2 Serbian side. This is something -- this is an information that I
3 received in a report from the observers and from the technical committee,
4 and that committee was composed of French nationals. And the report said
5 that they were shot at. Despite that, we continued our actions and we
6 did succeed on many occasions in restoring electricity and water in
7 particular, but we still faced problems with fuel and gas.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand you well, Mr. Petrusic, that your
9 question was about whether the witness was aware of any government
10 initiative prior to him dealing with this matter and already positive --
11 positively seeking to resolve the problems? Was that what you wanted to
12 ask the witness? Yes. Then I would have interrupted the witness halfway
13 where he did not answer your question. He was talking about his
14 experience rather than about his knowledge.
15 Do you have any knowledge of the government dealing with these
16 matters before your arrival? By the government.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the problem was very
18 difficult in my presence. It was very serious. Before I arrived, I was
19 told --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any knowledge about the government being
21 involved in resolving this problem prior to your arrival? Do you know
22 anything about whether they discussed it or whether -- what they did
23 or -- prior to your arrival?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, when I arrived, I noticed that
25 the problem was already there, and I learned that there were attempts,
1 there had been attempts, from both sides to repair the electricity lines
2 and the water pipes. However, due to the violence, everything stopped.
3 So there had been attempts. And I started from these attempts to
4 continue and to establish their technical committee composed of
5 representatives of various sides in order to continue the efforts.
6 However, there were attempts, and I knew about them.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you have no personal knowledge of it apart
8 from having heard about such attempts.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.
11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. General, we'll now move to a completely different subject,
13 although I meant to discuss this, but you've said enough. When you
14 arrived on the 21st of August in Sarajevo, were you briefed in the first
15 few days about the existence of military units in the Sarajevo region,
16 units controlled by the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
17 A. [Interpretation] I'm sorry, the question is not very clear.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the question.
19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. General, when you arrived in Sarajevo, did anyone inform you
21 which military units and formations were based in the Sarajevo region and
22 controlled by the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
23 A. When I first arrived to Zagreb, I received a briefing from
24 Mr. Nambiar and his command, and we looked at the map, and we talked
25 about the situation, the situation of the forces in the Sarajevo Sector.
1 We discussed the problems. So I had enough time to get acquainted with
2 the situation when I was in Zagreb. And when I arrived at the end of the
3 day, I arrived in the afternoon, I asked to receive a briefing about the
4 situation in the sector. We discussed the situation for about two hours
5 in order to determine where are the forces, the Bosnian forces, where are
6 the Serbian forces, where are the UN positions, the observer positions,
7 what are the vital targets in the sector, what are the major problems in
8 the sector. This is something normal for any commander to be acquainted
9 with at the beginning of his duties. I was well aware of the situation.
10 Furthermore, I had a map that I often referred to to determine the
11 locations of the various forces. This is how I used to follow up on the
12 movements of any vehicle -- any UN vehicle moving inside the sector.
13 Q. Was there in Sarajevo the command of the 1st Corps of the Army of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina? Were they based there?
15 A. [In English] I'd say it is a pie in the sky. I don't remember
16 really. But I know the -- I know the -- the 1st Corps headquarter, I
17 used to have a meeting with -- with the commander there, but I don't
18 remember whereabout. I don't remember it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but Mr. Abdel-Razek, you -- the -- yes, first
20 question you confirm that the --
21 THE WITNESS: The headquarter of the corps --
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- the headquarters was in Sarajevo.
23 THE WITNESS: In Sarajevo, yes, yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: But you do not know exactly where.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The question was a bit ambiguous as to were they
2 based there. It seems to limit the question only to whether they were in
3 Sarajevo and that you can confirm.
4 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Next question, please.
6 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Did you know the deployment of that unit in the zone of Sarajevo
8 under the command of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
9 A. [Interpretation] Yes. However, it was from a UN perspective.
10 So, for example, when we say that here we have a battalion in the sector,
11 for example, but if we look at the details, these details were not
12 available to us because we are not on the front line. But we can
13 confirm, for example, that in this location there are forces from that
14 side, and in that other location there are forces belonging to the other
15 side. But we do not know that specifically, where is each unit
16 specifically, because, sir, we -- we didn't have enough staff, enough
18 Q. Was any military unit deployed in the city itself? Did you have
19 occasion to see any such military unit in the city?
20 A. Inside the city and particularly in the sector where I was
21 operating, there were points. For example, in the street we would be
22 able to determine that there is a military point or a position with the
23 light weapons, and I would have, for example, one armoured vehicle. And
24 we used to see them moving inside the city, but they were not military
25 positions per se. I never saw a military position per se from my -- from
1 a military perspective. I didn't see any military posts, any weapons
2 posts. There were some forces inside the city, whereas the major forces
3 were stationed outside the city. And we would be able to monitor, for
4 example, the shelling from one side or from the other side.
5 Q. What about military units under the command of the government of
6 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Those that were around the city, did they also
7 hold some of the important higher ground around Sarajevo, some
9 A. What I can confirm is the following: They did have mortars, and
10 I highly objected to that when I talked to Mr. Ganic and Colonel Siber.
11 He was the military representative in the government. I told him that
12 there were some semi tracks that were coming close to the PTT building,
13 to the command building, and firing from that position, and then they
14 would -- they would leave. And we would be faced with the retaliation.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the situation, but there
17 was no heavy artillery or tanks inside the city.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Abdel-Razek, could I ask you to focus your
19 answer on what was asked. The question was whether there were any BiH
20 government troops holding positions at the high grounds around the city.
21 That was the question.
22 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You told us a lot, but it's still not clear to me
24 whether those troops were holding positions at the high grounds around
25 the city. Could you tell us whether they did?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sir. I know that there were
2 forces around the city from both sides. And concerning the Presidency
3 forces, they were inside the city and they had forces around the city, at
4 the limits of the city. I know that very well. However, they didn't
5 have heavy weapons. They had a lot of weapons. I can confirm that.
6 JUDGE ORIE: For the Presidency forces, they also had positions
7 on the high grounds around the city?
8 THE WITNESS: Not on the high ground. Not on the mountain. The
9 mountain dominated by -- by the Serb forces.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm looking at the clock, Mr. Petrusic.
11 Mr. Abdel-Razek, we will finish for the day. We'd like to see
12 you back tomorrow morning at 9.30. I'd like instruct you that you should
13 not speak or communicate with whomever about the testimony, either the
14 testimony you've given today or the testimony still to be given tomorrow.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Petrusic.
21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I will try tomorrow to put
22 questions in such a way that the witness should be able to answer very
23 quickly, but if his testimony continues as today, I'm not sure I will
24 manage that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, it's your task to take him back on
1 track. I mean, I did it a couple of times after he had gone on for 20,
2 30 lines, but it's your task to do that. You can do it in two ways. The
3 one is to put clear, concrete questions about facts. The second way of
4 dealing with this is that if he is going away from what you want him to
5 tell us, then please take him back. Of course, if -- finally I'll do it,
6 but if you do it yourself, then you certainly will be able to achieve
7 what you intend to achieve tomorrow.
8 We adjourn for the day -- yes, Mr. Groome.
9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just briefly. Since the time
10 limitation that the witness has is roughly equivalent to the time
11 limitation that the interpreters have doing two-way interpretation, can I
12 suggest that we proceed with two-way interpretation tomorrow. I believe
13 it will not only perhaps have a -- result with a clearer understanding of
14 the question, but if seems to me that the witness is listening to the
15 English translation of his own speech, and perhaps that would speed
16 things up if we proceed in that way.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That's certainly a matter to consider. As a matter
18 of fact, we suggested the way in which we proceeded today not knowing yet
19 at that moment - or at least not fully aware of that - the time limits
20 for the witness were the same as for the interpreters. So that might
21 speed up tomorrow. And if there would be any time -- first of all,
22 Mr. Petrusic, I did not put on the record yet that your assumption was
23 right, that the witness can continue tomorrow until 12.30. And if then
24 the next witness would be ready after that, that would -- then we would
25 not lose further time.
1 MR. GROOME: We have no information to say that the witness could
2 not be, Your Honour, so the Prosecution's ready. The Defence is ready.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The witness -- it was preferred that the witness not
4 start today, and that's reality by now.
5 We adjourn for the day and we will resume tomorrow, Friday, the
6 5th of October, at 9.30 in this same Courtroom I.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.32 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Friday the 5th day
9 of October, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.