Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3632

 1                           Friday, 5 October 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.  Madam Registrar, would

 6     you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  The Chamber is not

10     informed about any preliminaries.  Therefore could the witness be

11     escorted into the courtroom.

12             Mr. Vanderpuye.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  While the witness is

14     coming in, I just wanted to let the Chamber know that in respect of

15     65 ter 9389, this is --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  This is -- yes, is that P306.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think it's P2 -- P296.  This is the -- the

18     letter with the reply.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes, yes.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I was able to locate General Mladic's letter to

21     General Nambiar.  I provided that to the Defence.  They have a copy of

22     it.  What I propose to do, Mr. President, is to tender that document

23     separately because this 9389 was an associated exhibit.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  But I think I would like to tender that for the

Page 3633

 1     completion of the record and for the Chamber's benefit, if I may.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so that we have the complete information, yes.

 3     Has it been uploaded already?

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It has been uploaded and we've assigned it

 5     65 ter number 28451, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll deal with it in -- later today.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Abdel-Razek.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, sir.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated.  Mr. Abdel-Razek, I would like to

11     remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you have

12     given at the beginning of your testimony.

13                           WITNESS:  HUSEIN ALY ABDEL-RAZEK [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic will now continue his

16     cross-examination.

17             Mr. Petrusic.

18             And before we start, Mr. Abdel-Razek, may I urge you to focus

19     your answers very much and very precisely to the question that is put to

20     you.  If we need more background information about the matters you are

21     telling us about, Mr. Petrusic will ask you for it.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.

23             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Petrusic: [Continued]

25        Q.   [Interpretation] General, sir, yesterday you said that UNPROFOR

Page 3634

 1     maps were in your office with the disposition of forces of the Bosnian

 2     and Serb forces.  Is my understanding correct?  Just tell me whether what

 3     I'm saying is right or wrong.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Were the artillery firing positions marked on these maps as well,

 6     either of the Muslim or the Serb army?  Again, just please give a yes or

 7     no answer.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   During your mandate, during your mission there, was it possible

10     to tour the positions of both armies, their lines of fire, as it were?

11        A.   [In English] I didn't hear the translation.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You hear the translation, then --

13             THE WITNESS:  I don't.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  For listening to the questions, Mr. Abdel-Razek

15     should be on the English channel, or --

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that we have translation in both

18     directions now.  Mr. Abdel-Razek, do you hear the question in your own

19     language, or do you hear it in English?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I prefer to listen to them in

21     Arabic.  I prefer to listen to them in Arabic.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then is the witness on the right channel to

23     receive the Arabic?  What channel is that?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  It's channel 7, and it was set.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then let's continue.  Everything has been

Page 3635

 1     set, Mr. Abdel-Razek, for you to receive the question in Arabic.  If it

 2     doesn't work, please let me know.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic.

 5             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   General, sir, did your mission imply that you could tour the

 7     positions both of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the army of the

 8     Bosnian Serbs?

 9        A.   I did not tour these positions in persons -- in person.  However,

10     I visited some Serbian positions.  When Mr. Goulding visited us in the

11     sector, we also visited some artillery positions in Grbavica.

12        Q.   General, sir, you've given a partial answer to my question, but I

13     ask you kindly to focus on the question itself.  What about your mission

14     itself?  Did it envisage that you could do that?  Just tell me whether

15     this was envisaged within the terms of your mission or not.

16        A.   Sir, I was the commander of the sector.  There were also the

17     observers and many other units deployed.  The commander of the sector did

18     not have the possibility to tour these areas freely.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  [Microphone not activated] ... that is not the

20     question that is put to you.  The question that is put to you is that

21     whether your mission, not you as a commander, but whether those

22     subordinated to you in your mission, whether they will -- whether they

23     were able to tour the positions also on the Serb side.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sir.  International observers

25     were present in areas facing the Serbian positions and the positions

Page 3636

 1     belonging to the Bosnian government.  However, we had 11 posts were on

 2     the Serbian side and 3 posts on the government side.  We used to call

 3     them Baba or Lima or something like that.  So these people were in charge

 4     of observing, of assessing the direction of the fire, and to notify us in

 5     the command.  However, when one of the UN officials visited the sector, I

 6     went with him and we checked on some Serbian positions, and we visited

 7     one artillery post as you mentioned.

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   General, sir, now I'd like to move on to paragraph 77 of your

10     statement.  That is where you speak of mobile vehicles where mortars were

11     mounted.  From time to time, they would fire shells, and that happened

12     once from an area close to your command.  This is what I'd be interested

13     in.  We are speaking in general terms now, in terms of principle.

14             If mortar shells were fired from these vehicles, did the other

15     side have the right to respond to this kind of artillery fire?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, this is asking for legal opinion,

17     isn't it?  I will not -- you could ask the witness what his understanding

18     was of whether they were entitled to respond.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?  Everyone knew that

20     the United Nations, all the posts belonging to the United Nations, do not

21     entitle any warring factions -- I rephrase it.  According to the UN,

22     warring factions could not operate in an a perimeter of 500 metres from

23     the UN posts, be it mobile posts or the fixed posts such as the

24     Tito Barracks, the airport, or the PTT building.  It was forbidden for

25     anyone to get closer than 500 metres from these UN posts.

Page 3637

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  That was not the question.

 2     The question was that if mortars were fired from movable vehicles,

 3     whether the party who received those shells incoming, whether in your

 4     view they were entitled to respond to that fire.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As a military commander, I say yes,

 6     they had the right to retaliate.  However, they should have taken into

 7     account the fact that retaliation might target some UN building, and this

 8     is what happened.  This is what was important for us.  The vehicles

 9     equipped with mortars and shelling from UN proximity, from UN buildings'

10     proximity would then jeopardise the safety of the UN buildings.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Abdel-Razek, the question did not include the

12     element you add that it is that it was -- that fire was -- that there was

13     fire from the proximity of UN premises or that the return fire would go

14     into that direction.  The question was put in very general terms:  If

15     from wherever in Sarajevo mortars were fired from these vehicles, whether

16     the party receiving that fire was entitled to return that fire.  So let's

17     just do as if there was no UN even.  Let's just imagine, because the UN

18     is not the issue raised by Mr. Petrusic.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I said that the unit

20     that is targeted by the shells is entitled to retaliate.  This is from a

21     military point of view.  However, we are talking about a city that was

22     hosting UN posts and also a city where civilians were living.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The last part that civilians were living

24     there, that apparently is for you also a relevant factor to consider when

25     responding fire.  Is that correctly understood?

Page 3638

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.

 3             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   General, sir, these vehicles with mobile mortars, could they also

 5     be found near other facilities, civilian facilities?  I'm primarily

 6     referring to hospitals, schools, and the like.  Post offices.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Did you know that during your tour there shells were fired from

 9     these vehicles, from the proximity of some other facilities?

10        A.   Yes.  And I mentioned this to Mr. Galic.  Ganic and not Galic.

11        Q.   Today, to the best of your recollection, General, can you tell us

12     what these locations were?

13        A.   During our tour, we saw some locations close to the PTT building,

14     and the district, and the main hospital.  So close to the PTT building,

15     district and main hospital.  This is what I saw during my tour.

16        Q.   If I understood you correctly, you are saying that from these

17     locations a mobile vehicle with a mortar mounted on it fired from there

18     and the Serbs responded by firing at these locations; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes, this is what I meant.  They used to fire from these

20     locations, and they used to receive retaliation firing from the Serbian

21     side.

22        Q.   General, sir, you mentioned your meeting with a high official of

23     the State of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Ejub Ganic.  You lodged a protest with

24     him.  Am I correct in saying that?

25        A.   Yes, I lodged a protest with him and with Colonel Siber.  Siber.

Page 3639

 1        Q.   Did the situation change any after your protest?

 2        A.   Regarding the PTT building, the situation changed as of October

 3     maybe.  These vehicles stopped coming to the PTT building.  However,

 4     these vehicles continued moving and droving around and taking some posts

 5     next to some humanitarian facilities such as the hospital, and we used to

 6     receive too many protests in this regard, and we used to convey our

 7     opinion in this relevant manner -- matter to the officials that I have

 8     mentioned, and we vehemently reported that.  I think the

 9     Secretary-General, Mr. Goulding and Mr. Morillon saw and witnessed the

10     effect of shelling on these humanitarian facilities.  They also

11     complained to the Bosnians for the location -- for the positioning of

12     some military forces next to these facilities.

13             I remember the answer from Mr. Ejub Ganic.  He used to tell me,

14     Where should we go?  We are fighting close to the city.  I told him, You

15     have to go.  You are creating lots of problems.  And if I were on the

16     other side I would have retaliated to any firing, to any shelling, and

17     this is a problem.  I hope that I answered your question.

18        Q.   Yes, General.  The concentration of weapons that you spoke of

19     yesterday during your examination, this concentration that existed in

20     Sarajevo and also these mobile vehicles, was all of that a threat to the

21     civilian population in Sarajevo itself?

22        A.   Of course the presence of any military force inside residential

23     areas constitute a threat to civilians.  This is natural.

24        Q.   Thank you, General.  General, sir, now I'd like to move on to the

25     28th -- the 29th of August, actually, and a meeting that was held in

Page 3640

 1     Sarajevo, but before that let me ask you something:  The name of

 2     General Hosen, is that familiar to you?

 3        A.   No.

 4             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we please call up in e-court

 5     1D327, please.

 6        Q.   General, sir, I would like you to focus on -- actually -- all

 7     right.  Perhaps we won't be dealing with this document a great deal,

 8     because you said that you did not know General Hosen.  Do you see what it

 9     says in brackets here, that General Hosen is present with two others, and

10     the Muslim delegation is represented by Mr. Cikotic and Siber.  Out of

11     these two attendees, are you perhaps one of them?  If you look at the

12     content of the meeting, would that perhaps jog your memory?

13        A.   This is obviously a minutes of a meeting that took place.  You're

14     talking about General Hosen.  Hosen is not familiar to me.  Maybe Husein,

15     maybe.  That's my name.

16        Q.   Sir, if that is correct, I'm sorry to say that I have a

17     translation of the original, and I'm really reading correctly.  It says

18     "General Hosen."

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, what the witness says is he at least

20     allows for the possibility that it is an error in the transcript, and

21     since the first name of this witness is Husein, that it may be a

22     reference to him.  And to be quite honest, that is the first thing that

23     came to my mind as well when I read it, but ...

24             Did you attend a meeting with, on the 29th of August, 1992, a

25     kind of a meeting which we find in this minutes on the talks between the

Page 3641

 1     representative of UNPROFOR and the representative of the armed forces of

 2     the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the presence of -- where -- and is

 3     there any chance that you arrived late?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sir.  Yes.  I remember this

 5     meeting, and I remember Mr. Siber.  At the beginning, he was not very

 6     friendly, at the beginning of this meeting, and he reminded me that I

 7     arrived five minutes late, and I apologised to that.  I do remember that

 8     meeting.  I told him it was out of my control, because the guide took us

 9     to another location.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, the witness is present at the meeting.

11     The only inconsistency still is that the minutes say that you were

12     45 minutes late, whereas the witness says he was five minutes late, but

13     let's not focus on that.  Please proceed.

14             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I really do apologise to the

15     witness for this misrepresentation, but in both versions, in Serbian and

16     in English, it says General Hosen.  I suppose it's a misspelling.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That has been established by now in detail

18     over the last couple of minutes.  Let's proceed, Mr. Petrusic.

19             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Sir, if we look at what you are saying, which is somewhere in the

21     middle of the page, and if we compare it to paragraph 77 of your

22     statement, we can see that you are talking about the same subject.

23     However, a little bit above that paragraph, in the middle, it says:

24             "Three French soldiers were seriously wounded today in

25     Nedzarici."

Page 3642

 1             In paragraph 78, you say that in the incident that happened in

 2     the vicinity of Butmir, two French soldiers were killed.

 3             What I am interested in is to hear from you were those two

 4     separate isolated incidents, or was there some confusion there?

 5        A.   During these meetings, we used to discuss a lot of topics, and I

 6     do not recall the details of every meeting right now.  You are asking me

 7     to remember that meeting in particular.  The words are -- the font is

 8     very small; I cannot read very well.  But these meetings in general --

 9     during these meetings, we used to discuss similar issues, including the

10     issue of the vehicles that were used for selling from the vicinity of the

11     UN building.  We also discussed the casualties that we incurred as a

12     result of fighting between the two sides, and I used to encourage both

13     sides to avoid -- to avoid shelling the UN buildings and UN locations.

14     These were things that we discussed at most of the meetings that we held,

15     not just that meeting in particular.

16        Q.   Very well.  Very well, sir.  Thank you for your answer.  In

17     paragraph 74, you speak about sniping of civilian targets in Sarajevo, as

18     well as UN facilities.  Now, let's leave UN facilities aside for a

19     moment, and I would like to draw your attention to civilian targets.

20     When you talk about civilian targets, did you refer -- so I withdraw my

21     question.

22             When you speak about sniping of civilian targets, did you mean

23     the sniping targeting civilian population?

24        A.   Yes.  Yes, this is what I mean.  We received reports from

25     observers, and we noticed that a lot of casualties, a lot of the people

Page 3643

 1     wounded by the sniping, were children and women, and they were older

 2     people.  It is as if there was a focus on these people.  And if you go

 3     back to the reports that we received from the observers, you will find

 4     all these details.  What interested me as well is that there were areas

 5     that were known to be sniping areas such as the area near the

 6     Holiday Inn.  There was also an area behind the PTT building where a

 7     woman was killed, as I mentioned or as it was mentioned in the reports

 8     during the visit of Mr. Vance and Mr. Owen to the sector.

 9             So there was a lot of sniping targeting civilian populations in

10     certain areas.  And in those areas, when we passed through these areas,

11     we all used to run and speed up to pass quickly through these areas.

12        Q.   Sir, do you know that in certain parts on the outskirts of the

13     city of Sarajevo, the lines between the Serb and Muslim forces were only

14     about a hundred metres apart?

15        A.   Yes, yes.

16        Q.   Would you allow for a possibility that the victims, unfortunately

17     those who were either killed or wounded, could have been hit from

18     ordinary infantry weapons?

19        A.   We consider these to be sniping operations when they target

20     civilian populations.  As for regular fighting and clashes between

21     forces, this is something normal in times of war.  What interested us was

22     the operations targeting the civilians during their movement inside the

23     city and not at the outskirts of the city.  At the outskirts of the city

24     there are very close positions, but what interested us and what pained us

25     was to notice that there was a lot of civilian casualties as a result of

Page 3644

 1     sniping operations, and what I mean by sniping are individuals, men who

 2     carry weapons.  They are snipers, and they target directly civilians

 3     through sniping.  And you know very well what I mean by sniping.  It is

 4     sniping at a civilian individual crossing a certain area.  This is what

 5     we mean by sniping.

 6             As for clashes between the two sides, this is normal in times of

 7     war, and this is something that we understand.

 8        Q.   I understand what you're saying, sir.  Thank you.  From the city

 9     centre of Sarajevo where a tram line runs all the way to the first Serb

10     positions, can you tell us the distance between the two?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  In question direction, Mr. Petrusic?  I have

12     360 degrees around, so therefore the question's -- or would you say

13     wherever on this circle would be the forces closest to the town centre?

14     Now then you have another problem, because the town centre stretches for,

15     well, let's say one kilometre or more.  So from one part of the town

16     centre, closest may be one position, whereas from another part of the

17     town centre it may be another -- it may be another position.  So please

18     put a question which is clear enough to get a clear answer.

19             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Sir, are you familiar with the -- the part of Sarajevo town which

21     is next to the bank, and next to it is the famous historical building

22     known as Vijecnica or town hall?

23        A.   My memory, sir, does not serve me well.  I do not recall all

24     these details.  I'm talking about things --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- Mr. Petrusic, let me interrupt.  I do

Page 3645

 1     understand that you want to establish the distance between the

 2     confrontation line and a certain part of the city.  Now, we have -- first

 3     of all, you have not told us at what point in time, because the lines

 4     moved slightly now and then.  I think that there is quite some

 5     documentary evidence on confrontation lines, and even if it would not be

 6     within a margin of 50 or 60 metres but -- but -- I think there is -- at

 7     least in the binder of maps we find information about that.  Why not ask

 8     Mr. Vanderpuye whether he would agree that from this building to that

 9     point where the map show that there was positions or choose whatever

10     position you want, the distance was not more than a certain number of

11     kilometres or metres or hundreds of metres?  That is by far better than

12     to rely on distances which necessarily are at the best a guess, unless

13     the witness, of course, would have measured them in detail.

14             Mr. Petrusic -- Mr. Vanderpuye, would you be willing to look at a

15     map together with Mr. Petrusic?

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.

18             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   General, I would like now to move to a meeting that you had on

20     the 26th of October.  And for that we need document 1D335, please.

21             You can see the participants in the meeting where you yourself

22     are present representing UNPROFOR delegation, and on behalf of delegation

23     of the Army of Republika Srpska was General Milan Gvero.

24             Was that your first meeting with Mr. Gvero?

25        A.   Sir, as far as I recall, this meeting was the beginning of a

Page 3646

 1     series of meetings for the Military Committee at the airport.  This is

 2     something that we suggested, myself and General Morillon -- or

 3     General Morillon made that suggestion and I encouraged it.  We decided to

 4     meet with the high commanders, with the people in charge.  Sometimes we

 5     were meeting with second-rank officials and that was a waste of time.  So

 6     we decided that maybe if we can meet with the high commanders we could

 7     reach better results.  I think that was the first of a series of meetings

 8     that took place at the airport and what we called the joint military

 9     committee meetings.

10             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can I please have page 3 in

11     English and also page 3 in Serbian.

12        Q.   Please look at your contribution to this meeting, sir, but when

13     you talk about freedom of movement, you were actually referring to the

14     freedom of movement of the citizens of Sarajevo.  Did that also involve

15     the freedom of choice for the citizens of Sarajevo to either leave or

16     come to live in the city of Sarajevo depending on their wishes?

17        A.   In this context, I meant the freedom of movement of UN personnel.

18     We were suffering a lot from the closures, from the blockades, and from

19     the -- from stopping the UN convoys and humanitarian convoys.  I was

20     talking in this meeting in my capacity as UN commander.  I was finding

21     lots of problems and difficulties in performing my duties because of

22     closures of roads and also because of stopping UN convoys and vehicles as

23     well as the insistence of some check-points to --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Abdel-Razek, the question simply was whether you

25     referred to the freedom of movement of the civilian population as well.

Page 3647

 1     The answer clearly is no.  And then you start explaining why you raised

 2     the matter for the UN personnel, but the question was focused on

 3     UN personnel or civilian population.  The answer seems to be clear you

 4     were talking about UN personnel, not civilian population.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.

 6             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   If we look at page 6 in B/C/S and page 8, the last paragraph, in

 8     English -- or, rather, the penultimate one, you can see that

 9     General Gvero was asking for permission for 60.000 Serbs being held there

10     to be able to leave.  Was your impression that General Morillon agreed

11     with this?

12        A.   No.  I did not have this impression.  This is one of the requests

13     that was reiterated during our meetings with the Serbian side, but the

14     United Nations did not have a say or an answer, because this would mean

15     that the United Nations were taking part in ethnic cleansing operations.

16        Q.   Sir, had information ever reached you to the effect that a large

17     number of Serb civilians were living in Sarajevo?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did you also receive information that their desire was to leave

20     Sarajevo and to go to a territory under the control of the

21     Army of Republika Srpska?

22        A.   In smaller numbers, but the majority of the people I met wanted

23     to end the situation.  They wanted to co-exist, and they did not have a

24     problem in living in Sarajevo.  However, a few of them, and given the

25     deterioration of the situation in the areas where they were living, they

Page 3648

 1     used to come to the PTT building seeking refuge and safe haven, then they

 2     used to return to their neighbourhood.  We did not encourage such

 3     movements based on the movement of civilians based on their ethnic

 4     affiliation.

 5        Q.   At this meeting, did you discuss the issue of demilitarisation of

 6     the airport?  Sorry, I meant to say demilitarisation of Sarajevo.

 7        A.   We discussed it.  We discussed this matter, and we said -- we

 8     said that clearly during this meeting, and General Morillon explained

 9     that clearly he said that arms should be under control, and we will try

10     to draft a cease-fire agreement, and based on this agreement, we will

11     seek to sign it during our next meeting, and we asked all the people

12     attending this meeting to invite to the next meeting all the military

13     commanders, and I think that in the following meeting General Mladic was

14     present.

15        Q.   Prior to this meeting that was held on the 26th of October, had

16     the Serbian side before that meeting and at the request of UNPROFOR

17     accept the proposal on demilitarisation which involved an area about

18     1.000 metres around the airport?

19        A.   I cannot remember this.  What I remember is that both sides were

20     keen to achieve demilitarisation on a consensual basis; i.e., that it

21     happens at the same time and based on an agreement supervised by the

22     UNPROFOR in some areas where intensive clashes were taking place and

23     where many violations also were taking place.  So demilitarisation was

24     limited to rhetorics, because the coming days proved that it was nothing

25     but rhetorics, and there was no genuine will on the ground to implement

Page 3649

 1     it.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, in view of the limitations in time we

 3     have today, I suggest that we take a little bit longer first session,

 4     let's say approximately 75 minutes, that we take a little bit of a longer

 5     break, that is from quarter to 11.00 to quarter past 11.00, and then have

 6     another 75 minutes until the next break.  If that does meet any

 7     objections, then I suggest that you continue for another 17 minutes.

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   General, when you arrived in Sarajevo, did you know that the

10     airport at the initial stage of the conflict and before the arrival of

11     UNPROFOR had been under the control of the forces of the

12     Army of Republika Srpska?

13        A.   All what I know, sir, is that there was an agreement that was

14     reached according to which UNPROFOR would be in charge of protecting and

15     managing the airport, as well as ensuring operations through this airport

16     for humanitarian convoys and reliefs.  When I went to Sarajevo, this is

17     the agreement that was enforced, and as I said in my testimony yesterday,

18     Mr. Goulding told me that the activities in the airport were suspended

19     for security reasons, but it was about to resume its activity and to

20     re-open soon.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Abdel-Razek, again you were asked whether you

22     knew that the airport was under the control of the Republika Srpska

23     forces before.  You told us what you know, but that is not what was there

24     before.  So, therefore, if you had said, No, I don't know.  I only know

25     what I found when I arrived, that would have done and that would be it.

Page 3650

 1     You see the point?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sir.  Before arriving to

 3     Sarajevo, I did not know under whose control was the airport placed.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That would be the direct and very simple answer to a

 5     clear question.

 6             Mr. Petrusic.

 7             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Apart from UNPROFOR members, was any party participating in this

 9     armed conflict, or civilians for that matter, allowed to move on the

10     airport premises, including the runways?  Was anyone else allowed access

11     to these facilities?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, in fact or under the agreement?  What

13     are you referring to?

14             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I am referring to the agreement as

15     well as the factual situation in the field.  I was interested in whether

16     the witness has any direct knowledge about that.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you should ask two questions, one under the

18     agreement and one whether that was respected or not, because it's unclear

19     the way you put it.

20             Could you tell us whether under the agreement whether any party

21     to the armed conflict or civilians were allowed to move on the airport

22     premises, including runways, under the agreement?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The agreement, sir, was very clear,

24     according to me, the airport is under the supervision of UNPROFOR.

25     UNPROFOR would manage technically the airport for humanitarian purposes,

Page 3651

 1     relief purposes, as well as receiving the delegations of peacekeeping

 2     missions, as well as facilitating the movement of Bosnian officials to

 3     attend peace negotiations outside Sarajevo.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Again I urge you to -- not to say what the agreement

 5     was for but whether under the agreement or in the agreement anything is

 6     found which prohibits the warring parties or civilians to move on the

 7     premises of the airport.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was prohibited for

 9     civilians to use the airport or to move around and inside the airport

10     because it was under the protection of the United Nations.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And for the armed forces of the two parties?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No one was allowed to be present on

13     in the runways or in the airport facilities.  We only had liaison

14     officers.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, now about the facts, I take it.  I

16     leave it in your hands.

17             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   If no one was allowed there, did you have information that there

19     was movement nonetheless by civilians as well as uniformed personnel on

20     the runways and inside the airport itself?

21        A.   Sorry, sir.  I did not get your question.  UNPROFOR forces were

22     present there.  Airport is under our mission.  We used to go there to

23     unload the planes with loads of relief, et cetera.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, the question is:  Despite that it was

25     prohibited, did it happen or did you receive information that civilians

Page 3652

 1     would be on the runways or inside the airport?  That's the first part of

 2     the question.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, Your Honour.  I would like

 4     to clarify this issue.  No civilian was allowed to be present inside the

 5     airport except the liaison officers.  However, the technical management

 6     and administration of the airport was at the hands of the UNPROFOR.  So

 7     the civilians who were there were working for UNPROFOR, but not civilians

 8     who were residents of Bosnia.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Abdel-Razek, the question of Mr. Petrusic hints

10     at the possibility that civilians were illegally present on the runways

11     or in the airport premises.  Did you ever receive information about

12     civilians without permission being there?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This happened when some civilians

14     from Butmir started to cross through the runways inside the city.  This

15     is the single incident where it happened.  And we warned against what

16     happened, and there are relevant reports about this incident.  However,

17     some civilians, and they know it, I don't mean it by saying civilians

18     from Bosnia, but civilians coming from Zagreb or other areas, because

19     these civilians were engaged in negotiations with the relevant parties.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, please proceed.

21             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Were there persons in uniform who also used the runways or other

23     airport facilities illegally?  And I have in mind such persons who were

24     not allowed presence there legally.

25        A.   What do you mean, people in uniform?  I would like to know.

Page 3653

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I think Mr. Petrusic hints at persons in military

 2     uniforms, Mr. Petrusic, illegally moving on the runways or in the airport

 3     premises.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If this is the question, all I

 5     remember is that there were civilians that used to cross the airport, and

 6     that was one of the issues discussed with the Bosnian side and with

 7     General Galic.  And General Galic used to assure us that they were

 8     wearing military uniform, but our sources told us that they were

 9     civilians wearing civilian clothing.  This is what happened regarding the

10     movement of individuals on the runway, individuals specifically from

11     Butmir to the city.

12             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Very well, General.  Let us move on to another topic, then, which

14     you discuss in paragraphs 28 and 58 of your statement.  It has to do with

15     General Mladic.

16             During your testimony this morning, you said you saw him for the

17     first time after the 26th of October in 1992; is that correct?

18        A.   I was talking about General Gvero and not General Mladic.  I've

19     met General Mladic before that date, and I remember that there was a

20     meeting with Mr. Karadzic.  He attended that meeting, and I was with

21     Mr. Morillon.  But what I was mentioning this morning is that I met

22     General Gvero after that date, and he was the head of the delegation, the

23     Serbian -- Serbian Bosnian delegation in the joint negotiations and

24     discussions.

25        Q.   When you refer to that meeting of yours, was that the meeting

Page 3654

 1     where in addition to General Morillon and yourself, there was also

 2     Mr. Owen who was present?

 3        A.   No, sir.  There was another meeting when Mr. Morillon decided to

 4     have a -- a headquarters in Sarajevo Sector.  We went to Ilidza and we

 5     went on a reke mission in Kiseljak, and we chose Kiseljak to be the

 6     headquarters in Bosna -- Bosnia, and of course that was in co-ordination

 7     with the high commanders.  This is when we went and met with Mr. Karadzic

 8     and with General Mladic.  And I think I have given a picture of that

 9     meeting to Mr. Vanderpuye.

10        Q.   During your mandate, can you tell us perhaps how many times you

11     met with General Mladic?

12        A.   I think it was around four to five times.

13        Q.   Was it always on such occasions where Republika Srpska

14     delegations were present comprising civilians and military personnel?

15        A.   On some of these occasions, yes, such as the meeting that I was

16     referring to that was attended by Mr. Owen.  There were civilians and

17     military personnel representing Republika Srpska, and there was

18     Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Lukic, and Dr. Koljevic.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, I'm looking at the clock.  I suggest

20     that we take a break of half an hour now, a little bit of a longer break.

21     But first, Mr. Abdel-Razek, would you please follow the usher.  We would

22     like to see you back in half an hour.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, the estimate you gave yesterday is

25     still valid?

Page 3655

 1             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I believe so.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That means some time would be left for

 3     Mr. Vanderpuye to re-examine the witness.  We take a break, and we resume

 4     at quarter past 11.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.

 6                           --- Upon commencing at 11.16 a.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Can the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 8             Mr. Vanderpuye, as matters stand now, how much time you think

 9     you'd need for re-examination so that Mr. Petrusic could consider to what

10     extent he can accommodate you.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  I think not

12     more than five or ten minutes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Five or ten minutes, Mr. Petrusic.  Because there's

14     another reason why the Chamber very much would like to conclude the

15     testimony of this witness today.  The Arabic interpreters are not

16     available next week.  They're only available on the 18th of October,

17     which is a non-sitting week, just -- yes, after the 18th of October.  So

18     that means that we could not continue until early November.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Abdel-Razek.

21             Mr. Petrusic, please continue.

22             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   General, sir, following the London Conference, which took place

24     in September 1992, as you say, you had a meeting with President Karadzic,

25     who flatly refused your request that artillery be placed under UN

Page 3656

 1     control.  Further below in paragraph 28, you say that he could not have

 2     made that decision without Mladic's approval.

 3             My first question is this:  Did you know that President Karadzic

 4     was also the supreme commander of the armed forces of Republika Srpska?

 5        A.   I didn't know his title.  I knew that he was the head of the SDS,

 6     and this is how I was dealing with him.  This is the title that we knew

 7     at the United Nations.  However, his presidential title, this is

 8     something that I was not aware of.  It was not in the correspondence of

 9     the United Nations.

10        Q.   If Radovan Karadzic was the supreme commander, and he indeed was,

11     I believe that is not in dispute, would you agree with me then that

12     General Mladic, as the commander of the armed forces of Republika Srpska,

13     was his subordinate?

14        A.   Yes, I understand that, and I also understand that the military

15     decisions must be taken in consultation with the military advisors, with

16     the military leaders in any country, because the political leader, when

17     he takes a decision related to military issues, he must consult with his

18     assistants, with his -- with the people working with him.  That's normal.

19        Q.   Did know that Radovan Karadzic, as the supreme commander of the

20     armed forces, had his ministry of the military, which was headed by a

21     general, a military man whom Mr. Karadzic could consult on military

22     issues?

23        A.   I have no objection to that.  I understand that completely.

24        Q.   At the aforementioned meeting when Karadzic flatly refused to

25     make such decision, there was no one else in attendance save for yourself

Page 3657

 1     and Mr. Karadzic, of course -- or let me put it this way:  Was there

 2     anyone from the top brass of the armed forces of Republika Srpska, anyone

 3     from the Main Staff?

 4        A.   As far as I recall, General Mladic was not present -- present at

 5     that meeting.  I hope I remember well, and I think that Mr. Krajisnik was

 6     present, but he was in an official capacity with Mr. Karadzic.

 7        Q.   So you have no tangible evidence save for your opinion or

 8     presumption that such decision was approved by General Mladic?

 9        A.   Sir, I said in my first statement that it was my personal

10     impression, and if you may allow me to clarify this.  In the military

11     statements made by Mr. Karadzic following the London Conference and all

12     the correspondence between Goulding and Mr. Nambiar and everything I

13     learned from Mr. Nambiar when I first met with him, I understood that

14     Mr. Karadzic committed to gathering the weapons and putting them under

15     the UN control.  Furthermore, he also agreed to withdraw from certain

16     areas, sensitive areas, in order to reduce the tension and reduce the

17     escalation in the situation.  This is why when I met him a second time

18     and he told me something contrary to what I already heard --

19        Q.   General, excuse me for interrupting.  You have expanded on that

20     in your statement as well as in your previous answer.  I'm content with

21     that.  Therefore, we could move on.  I wanted to apologise once again for

22     having interrupted you.  Let us move on.

23             Did you personally at those meetings you attended with

24     General Mladic express or table certain problems regarding Sarajevo and,

25     if so, can you tell us when those meetings took place and which

Page 3658

 1     delegations were present?

 2        A.   I never mentioned meeting General Mladic personally, and we

 3     discussed specific issues.  Most of my meetings took place with

 4     Mr. Galic, but when the UN delegation met Mr. Karadzic, usually

 5     Mr. Mladic was present at most of these meetings.  The only meeting that

 6     took place between myself -- or the only discussions that took place were

 7     friendly discussions mainly on the occasion of Christmas.  We talked

 8     about general things, and I think that he asked me at the time to go back

 9     and tell the Egyptian authorities to send a military attache to this

10     Republika Srpska, and I told him that I was not authorised to do that.

11     So it was a friendly conversation.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Abdel-Razek, Mr. Petrusic is referring to all

13     the meetings you had where General Mladic was present.  Did you raise any

14     problems during such meetings, and do you remember at what meeting you

15     raised what problem?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the meetings of the joint

17     military commission at the airport, I spoke in my capacity as UN

18     commander in Sarajevo.  I raised the problems.  He was there, and he

19     agreed on the signing of the cease-fire agreement which was supposed to

20     take place during that meeting, but this did not take place, did not

21     happen.  During that meeting, everyone was raising the problems he was

22     facing, and I also raised the problems we were facing in the

23     Sarajevo Sector.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you briefly list, not explain but just list

25     the problems you raised.

Page 3659

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The problems I raised were the

 2     following:  Continuous shelling; the blockade of UN convoys and of

 3     humanitarian convoys; I also mentioned the problems we were facing with

 4     the Presidency side when it comes to humanitarian matters.  We were

 5     required to ensure the provision of fuel, to provide generators for the

 6     hospitals, et cetera.  I was mentioning and raising all these problems in

 7     such meetings.

 8             There was also another important topic which was the

 9     disappearance of the three civilian drivers who were evacuating the

10     students who were stuck in Sarajevo.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  One additional question.  From this list, do I

12     understand that you did not raise any sniping problems?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mentioned shelling.  When I say

14     "shelling," I meant also -- it also comprises sniping and any other

15     military activity targeting civilians.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.

17             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask for 1D343 which

18     is relating to this topic.  I have to tell you that we have a draft

19     translation into English which was done by somebody from our office;

20     hence this document could only be marked for identification, and we will

21     be tendering it as such.

22        Q.   General, in the introduction of this document issued by

23     Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic on the 11th of November, 1992, it reads:

24              "On the basis of an agreement on the unconditional cessation of

25     hostilities in the former Bosnia and Herzegovina," and the agreement in

Page 3660

 1     question had to do with both Serb and Muslim forces.

 2             It is ordered to implement the following conduct, and then on

 3     page 2 in item 2 of the English version we see that the "kag" acronym

 4     should stand for "corps artillery group" and that such firing cannot be

 5     executed without the approval of the commander of the Main Staff.  This

 6     order was forwarded inter alia to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  The corps

 7     had the area of responsibility which included the city of Sarajevo.

 8             My question is this:  Does this order reflect the contents of the

 9     meeting as discussed at the airport by you and General Mladic as well as

10     the rest of the delegation?

11        A.   Yes.  Yes, sir.  And based on this order -- sorry.  I knew from

12     General Galic that he issued an order to his subordinates.  However,

13     unfortunately, the situation did not prevail for a long period of time,

14     and firing and shelling continues for a long period of time.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I seek clarification of the answer.

16             You said:

17             "I knew from General Galic that he issued an order to his

18     subordinates."

19             Do you mean to say that General Galic issued an order to his

20     subordinates, or did you mean to say that General Mladic issued an order

21     to his subordinates, because we are looking at an order apparently issued

22     by General Mladic?  Which of the two you meant when you said "he issued

23     an order"?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is what happens in military

25     matters.  Orders are issued from the commanders to the commanders of

Page 3661

 1     sectors, and then the commanders of the sectors issue orders to the

 2     various units.  So if Galic told me that there is an order in this

 3     regard, this means that this order was issued based on instructions from

 4     General Mladic.  This is what I meant.

 5             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Thank you, General.  Since you've already mentioned

 7     General Galic, I would also like to ask for a document, P302.

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I do apologise.

 9     Should I tender the documents as I deal with them, or should I tender

10     them all together at the end of the session.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You can tender them once you're dealing with them.

12     Did you want to tender the previous document, the order which we have on

13     our screen now?

14             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

16             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, if I may.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it you want to have it marked for

19     identification because there is no final translation yet.

20             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D343 becomes Exhibit D65 marked for

22     identification, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And keeps that status for the time being.

24             Yes, Mr. Petrusic.

25             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could I please have the next

Page 3662

 1     document now, and that is -- yes.  Yes.  Yes, it's already on our

 2     screens.

 3        Q.   This is a document dated the 10th of October, 1992.  It was

 4     issued by the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and it was signed

 5     by the commander, Stanislav Galic.

 6             General, sir, you will see paragraphs 1 and 2 that have to do

 7     with the ban on using any kind of artillery weaponry and also the ban on

 8     opening any kind of fire at the town of Sarajevo.  Will you agree with me

 9     that General Galic issued this order on the basis of the order of the

10     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska as is stated at the end of

11     this document that we have here?

12        A.   Yes.  Yes.

13        Q.   Further on does that mean that the order of the Main Staff that

14     General Galic received could not have been changed by him?

15        A.   Yes.  Yes, sir.  I agree.

16             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would also like to tender this

17     document.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.  It's already in evidence because

19     it was called as --

20             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.  I beg your pardon.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.

22             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   General, sir, when you came to Sarajevo, when you started your

24     tour there, as you journeyed from the airport to your command, you

25     noticed some damage on the buildings there, didn't you?

Page 3663

 1        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 2        Q.   Just after you took -- took up your command duty, you had a

 3     meeting with General Galic?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Mrs. Plavsic was present as well, wasn't she?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 7        Q.   Did General Galic present to you the position of his superior

 8     command, the Main Staff, that is, in relation to Sarajevo?  That is to

 9     say both in terms of shelling and sniping.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  We apologise, but we could not hear the answer.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The interpreters did not hear your answer.  Could

12     you please repeat the start of your answer.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During that meeting, I was

14     introducing myself to the various relevant stakeholders, and this meeting

15     was mostly an introductory meeting, and I was seeking their co-operation

16     in order to achieve the success of the UNPROFOR mission in the sector.

17     However, we did not tackle too many details during that meeting.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But was the position of the superior command

19     discussed in relation to shelling and sniping in relation to Sarajevo?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No, sir.  It was an

21     introductory meeting.  I was introducing myself to the parties.

22             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Thank you, General.  1D336.  Could I now have

24     that document, please.

25             It is a fact that this document was issued a month before you

Page 3664

 1     arrived.  However, do allow me just briefly to focus on this document

 2     with you.  The 13th of July, 1992, is the date, and it is signed by

 3     General Ratko Mladic.  It is a document of the Main Staff of the

 4     Army of Republika Srpska.

 5             General, would you please focus on page 2.  Of course you can

 6     look at page 1 as well; the first paragraph, that is.  Once you've had a

 7     look, could you please tell me so that we can have the second page

 8     displayed for you.

 9        A.   [In English] Could you please [indiscernible].  I can't catch the

10     word.  Yes.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Okay.  Let's move on.

11             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the second

12     page of the document now.

13        Q.   I'd like to draw your attention to -- yes, well, the only

14     paragraph, paragraph 2.

15        A.   [Interpretation] Yes, I can see orders issued by a higher command

16     to the relevant commands in the sector.

17        Q.   General, sir, in relation to the previous orders that you saw,

18     October and November, this document that was issued on the 13th of July,

19     does it differ in any way -- sorry.  General Mladic, who issued this

20     document, is he fully consistent in terms of not allowing shelling and

21     not allowing the use of artillery against the town of Sarajevo?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, isn't it true that the consistency or

23     inconsistency between documentary evidence is for the Chamber to decide?

24     Of course, unless the witness sees anything very special, but this is a

25     document which deals with matters before his arrival, and you're more or

Page 3665

 1     less asking the witness to interpret the document.  Again, if he has any

 2     specific knowledge on specific matters appearing in this document, it may

 3     be of some use.  Otherwise, I don't see what use it serves.

 4             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   These three documents, are they consistent, the three documents

 6     that you had an opportunity to see?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently you do not understand my comment,

 8     Mr. Petrusic.  Would you please put your next question to the witness.

 9             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   In the further talks that you had, did General Galic suggest to

11     you -- or, rather, did he ever say to you that he had had explicit orders

12     from his superior command not to use artillery weapons in Sarajevo?

13        A.   Yes.  This is what I mentioned.  He said that there are orders,

14     that he issued orders, and I told him that these orders should be

15     communicated to your staff and that you should ensure that it is followed

16     up.  And he confirmed it, and this means that he received orders from the

17     higher command.  We say instructions are issued by the higher command and

18     orders are issued to the subordinates.  This is the terminology we use.

19             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

20     document into evidence.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D336 becomes Exhibit D66, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

24             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   General, sir, do you know what General Galic's attitude was

Page 3666

 1     towards his superior command?

 2        A.   No.  Specifically I don't know such things.  I'm not aware of

 3     them.  But when I talked about his relations with his superior command, I

 4     was talking about my personal impression, and I reiterated that several

 5     times.  We are generals who understand how things happen, and I was

 6     talking about a personal impression here.

 7        Q.   Could anyone else issued orders to General Galic?

 8        A.   I don't know, sir.  I don't know.  All I know concerning that

 9     specific issues is that he said there were directives, and I have given

10     my instructions to my subordinates but I do not know what is the

11     relationship between the military and the political commands, how orders

12     are received from whom.  I don't know all these details.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, before you move to the next -- to your

14     next question, the document which was admitted a second ago, D66, may I

15     take it that the translation originates from the Prosecution?

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please have a look at -- only at the stamp

18     where it mentions the 4th of June, where I see some handwriting which is

19     1407 rather than the 4th of June.  I don't see anything of the kind.  So

20     could perhaps the translation be verified.  I recognise the 204 on the

21     second line, but the 4th of June, the only thing I see is 1407 in

22     handwriting, or if the 1 is not a 1 but just a dash, then it would still

23     be the 4th of July rather than the 4th of June.  So I have difficulties

24     in accepting this to be an accurate translation.

25             Could you please check that, Mr. Vanderpuye, and if need be,

Page 3667

 1     inform Mr. Petrusic.  Meanwhile, Mr. Petrusic may continue.

 2             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Document 1D347, please.

 3        Q.   This is also a draft translation from the Office of the Defence.

 4     General, would you please familiarise yourself with the content of this

 5     document, and then please tell us whether you recall this situation.

 6        A.   [In English] I have to have the camera to be focused on this.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Sorry, Mr. President.  I was just going to

 9     indicate that we perhaps could blow it up so he could see a little

10     better.

11             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  I -- I remember this, yeah.

12             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   In spite of the order issued by General Mladic last Tuesday which

14     refers to the removal of a container and wooden obstacles on the road

15     leading to the airport, these obstacles and this container are still in

16     the same place.  Is this an order that you received from General Mladic,

17     and, actually, how did you know about this?

18        A.   [Interpretation] This order is clear.  We at the UN, we

19     communicate with people at the various levels, at the command level, the

20     field level, and --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll stop you again, Mr. Abdel-Razek.  The question

22     is how were you aware of this order having been issued by Mr. Mladic.

23     Did you hear it?  Did you see it?  If you heard it, from whom did you

24     hear it?  If you saw it, how did you obtain the document?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document is linked to the

Page 3668

 1     first meeting that I had with General Galic during which he told me that

 2     there were directive issued, and usually when he received directives from

 3     General Mladic he issues instructions.  This is how I understand things

 4     from a military perspective.  When there is a directive issued from the

 5     higher command, the commander issues instructions to his subordinates.

 6     So I was referring to the instructions given by the general, and despite

 7     these instructions the situation did not get better.  This is what I

 8     meant.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  So the answer is you heard of such an order when you

10     met with General Galic.  Is that correctly understood?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sir.  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.

13             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   After your intervention did the situation improve, specifically

15     in this case?

16        A.   After that I met with Galic a second time, and we reached an

17     agreement that the container or the obstacles that were placed along the

18     airport road, he was worried that the other side will be using the

19     airport.  So I told him we will supervise the control of the airport by

20     opening up another route.  We agreed on that, and on the following day

21     this was executed.  And I issued orders to the French battalion asking

22     them to put a control point along the airport road in order to prevent

23     any obstacles to the UN vehicles and the UN convoys.

24             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] This is a draft translation, yes,

25     a draft translation, and I would like to tender this document for

Page 3669

 1     identification purposes only.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D347 becomes Exhibit D67 marked for

 4     identification, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  It keeps that status

 6     for a while.

 7             Mr. Vanderpuye, if finally a -- if a final translation will have

 8     been received, would there be any objection as far as you can see now?

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.

11             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   General, during your mandate, did you receive any protests or

13     complaints from the Serbian side to the effect that UNPROFOR members and

14     members of other international organisations were smuggling in weapons

15     for the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo?

16        A.   No.  No, I never heard such objections.  They were never raised

17     in my meetings with anyone.  I've never heard about the smuggling of

18     weapons by UNPROFOR forces.

19        Q.   How about other international organisations?

20        A.   I've never heard of that either.  Throughout my presence in

21     Sarajevo, I've never heard that other international organisations were

22     smuggling weapons to the Bosnian government forces.

23             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have a document --

24     or, rather, a video-clip, 1D358.  The transcript of the interpretation

25     was produced by the Defence office.

Page 3670

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note:  The booths don't have the

 2     transcript.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The booth complains -- or at least states they have

 4     no transcript, Mr. Petrusic.  Apparently not in either language.

 5             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it lasts for about

 6     one minute.  Can we play it without the sound, and possibly ...

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And possibly what, Mr. Petrusic?

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] So that possibly we could see

 9     members of the peacekeeping forces, and I would like to ask the general

10     if he can recognise certain soldiers in this video.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  If a party does not rely on the sound and any words

12     spoken, then the video may be played without sound, and it has to be

13     played only once.

14             Please play the video.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   General, in this video were you able to recognise anything?

18        A.   In reality, the video does not show where did that happen and the

19     exact situation.  We see a number of images, but that's not something

20     I've heard about neither through complaints or protests from the command,

21     and I really don't know where that happened and what are the details of

22     the situation.  That's not something I've heard about.  That's not

23     something I was informed about.  There were no official communications

24     about that.  However, there was smuggling of fuel, but this is another

25     story.  It was a disciplinary issue.  There was smuggling of fuel from

Page 3671

 1     the Ukrainian battalion.  They were selling fuel outside of Sarajevo, and

 2     we investigated that with the police, and measures were taken against the

 3     violators.  There were other incidents.  For example, they took a car.

 4     They stole a car.  But there was a investigation with the police, and I

 5     issued a suggestion for the head of that battalion to be sent back to his

 6     home country, but that was a different matter, a disciplinary matter.

 7             Concerning this, I haven't heard anything about this.  I have no

 8     information.

 9             And I would like to add something if it's possible.  As a

10     military man, I know that these things happen in times of war.  Nobody

11     can control everything that's going on on the ground, nobody.

12        Q.   But, sir, in any case, you were able to recognise blue helmets in

13     this video, weren't you?

14        A.   The UN can investigate the matter, and if I recall well, there is

15     someone that I might have recognised.  It's Major Jackson.  He was

16     Canadian, and he used to work with us in operations, but this is someone

17     that I do not doubt at all.  I don't doubt at all his discipline.  I

18     don't think that he has anything to do with that matter.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you recognise any other person apart from the

20     person you just mentioned?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, I was trying to focus on the

22     blue helmets.  They seem to be soldiers, and it would be difficult for me

23     to remember, but the person wearing glasses, I think he was a major, if I

24     recall well.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it from your answers that you did not

Page 3672

 1     recognise the location where this was filmed.

 2             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

 3             [Interpretation] ... I could see a container and this is the

 4     container I was referring to.  It was in the middle of the road between

 5     Otes and the airport.  And -- and we put that container instead of the

 6     container that was placed previously by the Serbian forces in order to

 7     control access to the airport.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.  And keep in mind that

 9     we are coming closer and closer to the point in time where Mr. --

10             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am at the very

11     end, perhaps one or two more questions, but before that, I would like to

12     tender this document into evidence.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, any --

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Referring to the video-tape in terms of doc'ing

15     it?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I would ask that it be marked for identification

18     at this point.  I don't know what it says, and it may, in fact, support

19     or not support what the witness has said about it or what counsel's

20     representations are as to it.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, just looking at all this, the

23     probative value is entirely unclear to the Chamber.  Apparently you also

24     have -- you cannot rely on it because what the witness says is not -- is

25     not anyway -- in any way support what may be your interpretation of this

Page 3673

 1     video of which the Chamber is not aware yet.  Therefore, admission is

 2     denied without prejudice.  If at any later stage you consider that it

 3     could be tendered again, then we'll look at it at that moment.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Sir, were you aware or did you have any information at all that

 7     sometime in early January 1993, the Muslim forces started digging a

 8     tunnel underneath the airport runway in Sarajevo?

 9        A.   No.  No, I've never heard of such thing.  All I've heard is that

10     there were civilians crossing the runway from Butmir to the city and

11     vice versa.  And this is something that was mentioned in my statement.

12             As for a tunnel, I've never heard of that.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

14             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Sir, you spoke about the shelling of a funeral procession, and in

16     your statement, you indicate that fire came from the Serbian side.  Would

17     you allow for a possibility that there could be other interpretations and

18     other perceptions in the sense that perhaps the other party, that is to

19     say the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, were the ones who opened fire at

20     this funeral procession in Sarajevo?

21        A.   There were lots of allegations from the various parties, and the

22     Serbian side often said that the Bosnian side was opening fire on

23     civilians and on buildings in order to get the sympathy from the

24     international community and to get international support.  This is

25     something that we heard often in all meetings.  Every party tried to

Page 3674

 1     distance itself from these allegations, said they were not committing

 2     these mistakes and these violations.  This is all I know.  There were

 3     allegations from both sides, but the Serbian side often said that the

 4     other side was doing that to -- to themselves in order to justify an

 5     international intervention.

 6             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Sir, thank you.  I have no further

 7     questions for you.

 8             Your Honours, this concludes my cross-examination.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Vanderpuye.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You said you would need anything between five and

14     ten minutes.  Please proceed.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

17        Q.   General, I just have a few questions for you.  At page 7 of

18     today's transcript -- are you all right?

19        A.   [In English] Yeah.  Yeah.  Yes.  Yes.  Okay.

20        Q.   At page 7 of today's transcript you were asked a number of

21     questions concerning what you had referred to about retaliation in

22     respect of fire that was drawn from mobile units, and in particular, I

23     wondered if you had ever spoken to General Galic about this retaliation

24     or this retaliatory fire while you were in Sarajevo.

25        A.   [Interpretation] Yes, sir.  It was very clear.  I told him, You

Page 3675

 1     are firing at the UN building, and you should understand what the

 2     consequences will be.

 3             We turned into victims similar to the civilians in Sarajevo.  We

 4     are targeted by fire, shelling, mortar bombs.  He said, Fires were

 5     coming -- fire was coming from your direction.  I told him, Yes, I know.

 6     I protested strongly, and I told the other side very strongly that this

 7     should stop and no vehicles should -- no vehicles should fire from within

 8     a perimeter of 500 metres from UN premises according to UN rules.  And

 9     he -- he said, Should they stop firing, we will also act in the same way

10     and stop retaliating.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, the answer to your question is

12     found, I have here unnumbered, page 15 of the statement, last paragraph

13     there.  Seventy-seven.  So, therefore, what is in the statement doesn't

14     need to be further asked.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.  I'm not asking about the

16     statement.  I'm asking about his statement regarding it today.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but your question was whether he ever discussed

18     it with General Galic.  That was your question.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, it's clear from this paragraph that "I recall

21     one meeting prior to my last meeting with General Galic.  He told me --"

22     so he discussed it.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:

Page 3676

 1        Q.   Do you recall what you said in your testimony in the Karadzic

 2     case about your talk with General Galic on this matter?  If you don't,

 3     I'll be happy to read a little bit of it to you to refresh your

 4     recollection.

 5        A.   [In English] Okay.

 6        Q.   What you said in the Karadzic case, and this is 20 July 2010 with

 7     respect to this conversation, is that you told General Galic:

 8             "You should not retaliate --" and by the way this is at page 5554

 9     of the transcript.

10             You told General Galic that:

11             "I will accept that there are forces that are positioned in

12     certain places, but you should be wise.  You should not retaliate against

13     areas where there are many civilians.  You should not retaliate against

14     areas where there are -- you can retaliate," rather, "somewhere else

15     along the front, but to attack areas where there are civilians, this is a

16     mistake.  It brings major injuries.  It hurts us.  It hurts public

17     opinion, because in brief there are civilians getting killed, and there

18     are humanitarian facilities and hospitals that are getting destroyed and

19     unable to function.  So they should move away from shelling any civilian

20     population centres."

21             Does that sound about right?

22        A.   [Interpretation] Yes, sir, I said that I was getting into details

23     because I was provided with details, and this is what I said exactly.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You were asked at today's transcript, I think it's

25     page 34, if anyone could issue General Galic orders, or anyone else could

Page 3677

 1     issue General Galic orders, and you said that you didn't know.  You did

 2     say at your statement, however, that General Galic received orders to

 3     conduct shooting and shelling.  You believe he followed them because he

 4     was a soldier.  This is at paragraph 121.

 5             To your knowledge and understanding during the time you were in

 6     Sarajevo, who was General Galic's commander?

 7        A.   Sir, I clearly said that this was my personal impression.  I knew

 8     the commanders.  This is a personal impression.  According to my

 9     impression, Galic is one of these commanders who implements the orders

10     fully and exactly.  If he receives order to proceed into shelling, he

11     would do so.  I said that this is my own impression, my own personal

12     impression based on my meetings with him.  This is what I meant, should

13     this clarify my answer.  So I suppose that he received an order, and I

14     invite you once again to go back to the relevant documents.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell Mr. Vanderpuye who was the immediate

16     superior to General Galic in the hierarchy of the VRS.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Mladic.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:

20        Q.   Did you see any evidence during your time in Sarajevo that

21     General Galic received orders from anyone other than his immediate

22     superior, General Mladic?

23        A.   This happened when I was reviewing the documents.  I found a

24     document and it surprised me.  It contained orders from Dr. Koljevic

25     whereby he issues order to co-operate with the civilians.  I think that

Page 3678

 1     this was not normal.  I know that the Serbian troops were very

 2     professional.  We have had long-term relationship with them.  They are

 3     very professional, and I don't think that this was the normal chain of

 4     command.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Apart from this exception, do you have any evidence

 6     of other incidents where you -- that General Galic received orders from

 7     anyone else than his immediate superior?  So apart from this Koljevic

 8     exception.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, sir.  This was the only

10     exception that I found.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I have no further

13     questions.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No further questions.  Judge Fluegge has one

15     question for you.

16                           Questioned by the Court:

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, indeed, I would like to clarify one matter,

18     and for that I need P302 on the screen, please.  We don't have it yet.

19        A.   [In English] I have it.  I have it, sir, but I want to have it in

20     focus, please.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have seen it earlier.  Mr. Petrusic, in one of

22     his questions, and this is on page 30 of today's transcript, was

23     suggesting to you the following, and I quote:

24              "Would you agree with me that General Galic issued this order on

25     the basis of the order of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska

Page 3679

 1     as is stated at the end of this document that we have here?"

 2             I think there is a reference to an order by the Main Staff but

 3     not at the end but at the beginning of this.  You see here on the screen

 4     the first line, "Pursuant to an order by the Main Staff of the

 5     Army of Republika Srpska."  I take it that this document is from the

 6     10th of October, 1992.  Before I put a question to you, I would now like

 7     to have D65, which is marked for identification, on the screen.

 8             We saw that earlier today too.  This is a document signed by

 9     Mr. Mladic, dated 11th of November, 1992.

10             Sir, can you help me?  Could this order of the Commander Mladic

11     of the 11th of November be the basis for the order we have seen dated

12     10th of October, 1992, which was suggested by Mr. Petrusic?

13        A.   [Interpretation] I think so.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The order of Mr. Mladic is dated

15     11th of November.  The order by General Galic was dated 10th of October,

16     much earlier than the order of Mr. Mladic, one month earlier.

17        A.   To my recollection, the main document that was issued pertaining

18     to a cease-fire was another document, a different document, and I think

19     it comprised something also pertaining to the Croatian troops, that they

20     should be exempt from this order because they did not sign the agreement.

21     Maybe this is an attachment to the main document whereby the orders of

22     Mr. Galic were issued.  However, should Galic issue any order, he should

23     have received instructions from the higher command, and this is very

24     normal in military hierarchy.  When we have main instructions, they

25     should be issued by the Supreme Command to the middle command, then to

Page 3680

 1     the staff underground or Executive Command.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I very well understand your general explanation.

 3     Thank you for that.  That concludes my questions.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Have the questions by the Bench triggered any

 5     need -- or if not.

 6             Mr. Abdel-Razek, I apologise for being three minutes late as far

 7     as the time you indicated you would like to be able to leave this

 8     courtroom.  I would like to thank you very much for coming a long way to

 9     The Hague and for having answered the questions that were put to you by

10     the parties and by the Bench.  I wish you a safe return home and good

11     health, and you may follow the usher.

12             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Thank you.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break.  Could the Defence meanwhile

15     look into ID330, ID327, and ID335, which, if I'm not mistaken, are not

16     yet tendered, whereas I think you announced, Mr. Petrusic, that you

17     intended to tender them.  1D -- its -- yes, I say ID but I should say 1D

18     for all three.  Then after the break, is the witness ready?

19             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There are a few special matters to be

21     discussed before we start with the next witness.  We'll deal with them at

22     the beginning of the next session.  We will resume -- take a break and

23     resume at five minutes to 1.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 12.36 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

Page 3681

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We move briefly into private session.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3682











11 Pages 3682-3683 redacted. Private session.















Page 3684

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Could you please stand for a second.  And I'd like to invite you

11     to make a solemn declaration of which the text is now handed out to you

12     by Madam Usher.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15                           WITNESS:  RM081

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Witness RM081.

18             Witness, you'll first be examined by Ms. D'Ascoli, and you'll

19     find her to your right.

20             Ms. D'Ascoli, are you ready to start your examination-in-chief?

21             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, I am, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. D'Ascoli is counsel for the Prosecution as you

23     may be aware of already.

24             Please proceed.

25             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Before I call up the

Page 3685

 1     pseudonym sheet I just wanted to advise the parties that we are

 2     proceeding in this way like we did previously with another protected

 3     witness, RM032, meaning that we have created a pseudonym sheet that also

 4     contains the name of certain person that might identify the witness, and

 5     in this way if the witness at any point feels that he needs to refer to

 6     these persons, he could refer to the names rather than -- sorry, to the

 7     numbers rather than the names.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I take it that you have instructed the witness

 9     thoroughly on the matter.

10             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, I have, Your Honours.  And I would also ask

11     later for leave to give one of these heard copies to the witness so he

12     has it before himself and to the Defence as well.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, leave is granted already.  Please proceed.

14                           Examination by Ms. D'Ascoli:

15        Q.   Sir, I will now show you a document which contains personal

16     information related to you.

17             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can I please have 65 ter 28443, not for public

18     broadcast, of course.  This is the pseudonym sheet of the witness.

19        Q.   Sir, once the document is on the screen, I would ask you to have

20     a look at it but not to read out loud the information contained in it,

21     and I would ask you to confirm that what you see now on the screen, your

22     name and your date of birth are correct.  Please again do not repeat the

23     information, just confirm whether this information related to your name

24     and date of birth are correct.

25        A.   Yes, it is correct.

Page 3686

 1        Q.   And, sir, just a reminder of what we discussed during preparation

 2     for the testimony, you see a list of other names at the bottom part of

 3     this -- of this sheet.  Just to remind you that because we are in public

 4     session, so if you need to refer to any of these individuals, please

 5     refer to them by the numbers that you see on the side.  And I will now

 6     ask the Court Usher if they can give you a hard copy of this document so

 7     you have it with you.

 8             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, I have hard copies for Chambers,

 9     too, for the Judges, too.  And I would now ask to -- I would now tender

10     the pseudonym sheet mark with -- marked with 65 ter number 28433 [sic]

11     into evidence under seal.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28443 becomes Exhibit P308,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The number you may have misspoken, Ms. D'Ascoli, or

16     it may have been wrongly transcribed.  It's 28443, which is the -- line

17     13 of this page you see that the number is different, but it's the

18     pseudonym sheet.

19             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, it's 28443, Your Honour.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  P308 is admitted into evidence under seal.

21             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can I now ask the Court Officer to call up

22     65 ter 28442, and again not for public broadcast, please.

23        Q.   Witness, while the document is brought up on the screen, do you

24     remember providing a statement to the ICTY on 17 September 2011?

25        A.   I do.

Page 3687

 1        Q.   And now that the document is on the screen, can you please have a

 2     look at the signature at the bottom of the page in the original version

 3     of -- in the B/C/S document, and can you please tell us whether you

 4     recognise that signature.

 5        A.   I do recognise it.

 6        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to read and review this statement in

 7     preparation for your appearance before the Court today?

 8        A.   I have.

 9        Q.   And, sir, are you satisfied that this is -- the statement is an

10     accurate record of your evidence of what happened and what you

11     experienced, as far as you can remember?

12        A.   I am.

13        Q.   And if we -- if you -- if you were asked today the same questions

14     that were asked in preparation for this statement, would you give the

15     same answers in substance?

16        A.   I would.

17        Q.   And now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm

18     that you provided that information in accordance with the truth?

19        A.   I do.

20             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 28442

21     pursuant to Rule 92 ter under seal.

22             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

24             Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28442 becomes Exhibit P309 under seal,

Page 3688

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  P309 is admitted under seal.

 3             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, for ease of reference of the

 4     parties, we have also prepared a table of references of correspondence

 5     that shows the 65 ter numbers correspond -- the Mladic 65 ter numbers

 6     corresponding to the Karadzic ones that are used in the document so I

 7     would tender that document, too, at this stage.  It is 65 ter 28373.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28373 becomes Exhibit P310,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  It needs to be under

13     seal or not?

14             MS. D'ASCOLI:  No it don't, Your Honours, also because when later

15     we will tender public versions that will be useful to have it as a public

16     exhibit.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then please proceed.

18             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, Your Honours.  There are also six associated

19     exhibit to the witness statement now in evidence as P309.  Upon review,

20     we will only tender three today of these associated exhibit, so I'm going

21     to tender one of these now together with the statement, and this is

22     65 ter 08895, and I would ask it to be under seal.

23             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 08895 becomes Exhibit P311 under seal,

Page 3689

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  P311 is admitted under seal.

 3             MS. D'ASCOLI:  I will then discuss and tender with the witness in

 4     direct examination 65 ter 08500 and 65 ter 09097.  While with regard to

 5     65 ter 09077 to which the Defence has objected in their response to

 6     RM081's 92 motion, at this stage we simply note that this witness, RM081,

 7     discusses this document in paragraph 98 of his statements, provide his

 8     comments, and we will tender this document from the bar table or through

 9     another witness at a later stage.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That's understood.

11             MS. D'ASCOLI:  And with the Chamber's leave I would like to read

12     a summary of the witness's evidence for the public and the record.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You have explained to the witness the purpose

14     of it?

15             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, I have.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  So a summary will now be read.  Please.

17             MS. D'ASCOLI:  The witness is a Bosnian Muslim from the

18     municipality of Rogatica.  He testifies about the takeover of Rogatica by

19     Serb forces on 21/22 May 1992.

20             The witness testifies that following the attack, announcement

21     were made that Muslims without weapons should surrender themselves to the

22     Serb authorities at the Vlahovic Secondary School.

23             The witness went to the school with approximately 200 to 300

24     other Muslims.  The school eventually held 1.100 people.  Rajko Kusic was

25     for a time the commander of the detection facility at the

Page 3690

 1     Vlahovic Secondary School.  The witness was detained in the school for

 2     approximately three months and a half.  He describes the deplorable

 3     living conditions at the school where detainees had insufficient food and

 4     water, opportunities to preserve personal hygiene were inadequate and

 5     sleeping quarters were overcrowded.

 6             The witness further testifies about beating, killings, and rapes

 7     at the school performed on detainees by the school guards.

 8             And that concludes the summary, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. D'Ascoli, it's only now that the translation

10     finishes.

11             MS. D'ASCOLI:  I can see that.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  When you read, please slow down.

13             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, I will, Your Honours.

14        Q.   Witness RM081, I will now have a few questions for you today.

15             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can I please have on the screen 65 ter 09097.

16     Public display is fine for this exhibit.

17        Q.   Witness, I will show you a document that pertains to the events

18     in Rogatica in May/June 1992.  This document, Witness, is discussed in

19     your statement.  This is paragraph 39, for the record.  And I would like

20     to ask you to comment a bit more about it in addition to what is in your

21     statement.  This is an operative report from the Rogatica Brigade command

22     dated the 11th of June, 1992, and addressed to the SRK command.

23             Sir, first of all, can you have a look at the bottom of page 1 in

24     the original document, and I -- I will ask you whether you recognise the

25     name of the author of this order, of the commander who issued the order.

Page 3691

 1        A.   Yes, I recognise the name, although it's not his signature.

 2        Q.   The document is sent -- the author of the document

 3     is Commander Rajko Kusic, and you described Kusic's role in detailing

 4     your statement, so I won't ask further questions about that.

 5             I want to show you -- I want you to comment on the first sentence

 6     of the very first paragraph of the document.  So maybe if we can zoom on

 7     the first paragraph of the B/C/S, please.  Yes, the very top of the page.

 8             Sir, can you look at this very first sentence that says:

 9             "In the brigade's zone of responsibility, there were no sizable

10     enemy activities."

11             You can, of course, also read it for yourself in the original of

12     the document.

13             I want to ask you if this is consistent with what you observed in

14     Rogatica in May and June 1992, and by that I mean whether according to

15     your recollection, were there any significant enemy activities as it is

16     said in this document, and considering the context of this document,

17     enemy activities by non-Serb forces in the area of Rogatica?  Is that

18     consistent with your recollection of the events in that period?

19        A.   In essence, it is roughly the way it is stated in the first

20     sentence of this document, but even if there was any activity in the area

21     of Rogatica, I cannot say anything about that because I was in the very

22     centre of town itself with a lot of other people, and in the town itself,

23     there weren't any activities of ours because there were about 3.500 to

24     4.000 civilians, women, children, the elderly, and there were men of my

25     age who were civilians and who had not had any contact with weapons.

Page 3692

 1     Quite simply, they happened to be where they were, and from that point of

 2     view this first sentence does make sense in terms of the overall

 3     situation in the town of Rogatica.  However, as far as the centre of town

 4     is concerned --

 5        Q.   Yes, that's clear.  And just to clarify, when you say "there

 6     weren't any activities of ours," what do you mean by "ours"?  Do you mean

 7     civilians?  Do you mean Muslims?  Do you mean your community?  Can you

 8     clarify that, please?

 9        A.   What I thought of and as I tried to explain to you, these were

10     men, people, civilians, lots of women, lots of children, lots of elderly

11     people, lots of sick people.  We had no possibility of carrying out any

12     kind of activity.  We stayed in Rogatica hoping that there wouldn't be

13     any difficult situations there.  While specifically for me personally ...

14        Q.   Next, can you please have a look at the second sentence, and this

15     says -- it's again the first paragraph, just the second sentence where it

16     says:

17              "Large numbers of Muslim civilians arrive in town every day,

18     mostly women and children and unarmed people."

19             And again can you tell us whether this corresponds to your

20     experience of the events.

21        A.   Absolutely not, because at that time no one could enter Rogatica

22     or leave Rogatica.  What it says here, that the population was being put

23     up at the secondary school, that was not the case.  The population was

24     being taken prisoner and then escorted by the Serb army brought to the

25     secondary school where we were taken over by these guards, whatever

Page 3693

 1     they're called, people who were in charge of that.  When people arrived

 2     in camp, they tried to be put up any way that was possible, and then two

 3     girls came and registered the persons who had been brought to the school.

 4        Q.   Let me -- let me interrupt you there, Witness.  You were, in

 5     fact, covering that -- I'm -- meaning like I was going to ask you a

 6     question about this other sentence that you just commented upon in the

 7     document.  This is the third part of the third sentence of, again, the

 8     first paragraph where the document says:

 9             "The people are finding shelter or are being accommodated,"

10     depending on the translation, "in the secondary school centre?"

11             And my question to you, I was going to ask you whether also this

12     corresponded to your recollection to what actually was happening at the

13     school for what you have seen it, but I take it from your answer that

14     this is not correct; right?

15        A.   Absolutely not correct.

16        Q.   Yes.  And you described why not in your previous answer.  So I

17     will leave it there.

18             My last question about this document is with regard to the first

19     sentence of the second paragraph of the document.  You can read it where

20     it says:

21             "Snipers are firing from one or two places in town."

22             And my question is whether you remember snipers firing in town,

23     Rogatica.

24        A.   I said at the very beginning that in Rogatica, in the area where

25     I moved about and where I happened to be as this situation occurred,

Page 3694

 1     there weren't any weapons there.  There weren't any sniper shooters

 2     there.  There weren't any military actions being taken by this civilian

 3     population.  I did see sniper shooters.  I did see that, but they

 4     belonged to the Serb army.  You could see that with the naked eye,

 5     because the distance was from 50 to 100 to 150 to 200 metres roughly.  I

 6     could see that.  Other people could see that too.  And Serb soldiers also

 7     had these nests from which they controlled the part of town where I was.

 8             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, this is one of the associated

 9     exhibit, and I would tender it at this stage as a public exhibit,

10     65 ter 09097.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I think I have to object based upon the

13     witness's testimony at transcript page 58, line 24, that this is not --

14     he recognises the signature is not belonging to the person that is the

15     purported author; whereas in the statement it says that it is signed by

16     this person Kusic, and the witness has just testified that this is not

17     his signature.

18             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can I --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you assist me in taking us to the relevant

20     paragraph of the --

21             MR. IVETIC:  Paragraph 39, Your Honour, of the statement.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

23             MR. IVETIC:  And today's transcript temporary page 58, line 24.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, could I clarify that with the

Page 3695

 1     witness?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so, Ms. D'Ascoli.

 3             MS. D'ASCOLI:

 4        Q.   Sir, could you please look again at the bottom of this first page

 5     where the -- the stamp of the -- the stamp and the signature of the

 6     author of this document, Commander Rajko Kusic, is.  You said that -- so

 7     you of course recognise the -- this person, but you think that is not his

 8     signature; is that correct?

 9        A.   What is added in pencil is not his signature.  At least it's not

10     the signature that I know.  And I think that I do know it well.  And also

11     it says here "za" for the commander.  So somebody signed for the

12     commander on behalf of the commander.  I don't know.

13        Q.   That was my point.  If we can have a look at the English version

14     because normally these types of documents would be signed on behalf.  So

15     I just wanted to see if we have the same translation in the English.

16     Page 2.  Go to page 2.  And it says "and written for," well, the

17     signature for the commander.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the only thing still to be clarified is in your

19     statement, Witness, you said this is a document signed by Mr. Kusic.  Do

20     I understand that looking closer at it that you say the signature is,

21     first of all, because I know his signature, this is not his signature,

22     and that that was a mistake when you earlier said that it was signed by

23     Mr. Kusic.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Do the --

Page 3696

 1             MR. IVETIC:  That takes care of my objection, Your Honour.  I

 2     withdraw the objection.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 09097 becomes Exhibit P312,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P312 is admitted into evidence as a public exhibit.

 7             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can I now please have on the screen 65 ter 08500.

 8     And also public display is fine for this document.

 9        Q.   Witness, I will show you another document that you have already

10     seen and discussed in your statement.

11             MS. D'ASCOLI:  And for the record, this is at paragraph 55 of the

12     statement.

13        Q.   And again I would like to ask you a couple of more questions

14     about it.  This is a statement sheet for the security services centre,

15     the police station of Rogatica, and lists the name of active policemen

16     working in Rogatica in May 1992.

17             Sir, can you see the document on the screen?  Are you familiar

18     with this document?

19        A.   I see it.

20        Q.   You're familiar with it; right?

21        A.   Yes.  Yes.

22        Q.   Sir, you have enumerated in your statement the people that you

23     knew on this list and many of these individuals are also referred to in

24     different parts of your statement.  Now, just generally without going

25     into name by name because we have the references to the names that you

Page 3697

 1     have recognised in the statement, can you tell us how you knew these

 2     people?

 3        A.   Well, I know all of these people because, first of all, Rogatica

 4     is not a big town.  Well, I specifically knew all of these people because

 5     of the work that I did and then also on a personal level.  So I can just

 6     say that I knew them very well.

 7        Q.   And do you know if they were working at the Rogatica police

 8     station?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And from your statement, I take it that you saw some of these

11     people at the Vlahovic Secondary School during the months in which you

12     were detained there.  For example, if we have a look -- if you have a

13     look at the names listed in numbers 3, 11, and 19 of page 1, and I

14     repeat, 3, 11, and 19, are these the names of the soldiers who were seen

15     taking women out of the camp school to rape them?  You should look at the

16     document on the screen, not at the one on your table.

17             And I will -- I just wanted to confirm with you that the names

18     listed in the document on the screen at numbers 3, 11, and 19 are the

19     names of the soldiers who were seen taking women out of the camp school

20     to rape them; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And now if you look at the name listed in number 37 on page 2,

23     number 37, this person was questioning people, including you, at the

24     school; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3698

 1             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, this is also one of the associated

 2     exhibit, and I would tender it into evidence as a public exhibit.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 08500 becomes Exhibit P313,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P313 is admitted into evidence.

 8             MS. D'ASCOLI:

 9        Q.   Witness, I now have a question about Rajko Kusic's presence at

10     Vlahovic school.  In your statement, you discuss a long visit by Kusic at

11     the school, a visit that lasted about an hour during which Kusic said

12     that people detained at the school and in Rogatica were not co-operating

13     enough, that this was creating problems for him as he had a deadline for

14     cleansing Rogatica and that he had to report to Pale about that.

15             For the record, this is paragraph 90 of the witness statement.

16             Sir, my question is quite a simple one:  Do you remember when

17     this long visit of Kusic took place?

18        A.   It's possible it was the end of June 1992 or the beginning of

19     July.  As for the exact date, I cannot remember, because -- actually, we

20     could not remember dates.  There weren't any calendars there or there was

21     no other possibility of orienting oneself in terms of what day it was,

22     what month it was.

23        Q.   Yes.  I was just asking approximately.  No worries.  Thank you.

24        A.   Approximately end of June or beginning of July.

25             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Okay.  Can I now have 65 ter 28449 on the screens.

Page 3699

 1     And, Your Honours, maybe I can give some information about this document,

 2     because this was created by -- with the witness in preparation of his

 3     testimony on the basis of the names recognised by the witness in one of

 4     the associated exhibit, 08685, exhibit which is discussed at paragraph 82

 5     of the witness statement.

 6             The problem we had with this exhibit, which was tendered with the

 7     witness in the Krajisnik case, is that the names identified by the

 8     witness were not visible or clear any more because they were identified

 9     through a highlighting rather than any other markings.  Therefore, we

10     have asked the witness to identify those names again, and we have put

11     these names in a table which is now 65 ter 28449.

12             So, first of all, I would request leave to add this to the

13     Prosecution's 65 ter exhibit list.

14             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Leave is granted to add this document to the 65 ter

16     list.  Please proceed.

17             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Thank you, Your Honours.

18        Q.   Sir, in your previous testimony in Krajisnik, you were presented

19     with the document of the Bosnia commission for missing persons

20     identifying the remains of victims exhumed from the Paklenik pit among

21     others.  Out of this list you identified a number of people who were from

22     Rogatica.  Now, can you please look at the names at the document on the

23     screen.  Can you tell us whether you recognise the names in the table?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   And are these the names of the people from Rogatica who were

Page 3700

 1     hiding in cellars with you, discussed at paragraph 82 of your statement?

 2        A.   Yes.  Yes.  These are the names of people who were hiding in

 3     basements from the shelling.

 4        Q.   Yes.  I wanted to ask to clarify that for us.  What you do you

 5     mean by "basement" or "cellars," and where was this and when did this

 6     episode or event happen, because that is not clear enough from your

 7     statement.

 8        A.   When I mentioned basements or cellars, I mean cellars in the

 9     centre of town, the centre of Rogatica where there are about five or six

10     smaller and taller residential buildings, and these buildings had these

11     cellars that many residential buildings should have, and then we hid in

12     these cellars during the shelling of town.  And sometimes we'd stay there

13     for days.  Actually, for as long as the shelling went on.

14        Q.   Therefore, insofar as the time-frame is concerned, I take it that

15     these happened before people were brought to the

16     Vlahovic Secondary School and you, yourself; right?

17        A.   Yes.  It was the time from the 21st of May up until the

18     6th of June when I had to go to the school.

19        Q.   And can you tell us if you ever saw any of these men alive after

20     the summer of 1992?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   And do you know what happened to them or to some of them?

23        A.   I can say -- well, actually, there were some assumptions as to

24     what could have happened to some of the people we saw during those days,

25     and then all of a sudden we would not see them any more.  There were

Page 3701

 1     different assumptions, but when I arrived in the school, then we found

 2     out from one of the survivors who was in this group.  He actually told us

 3     what had happened to all of these people during one of the operations.

 4        Q.   And can you tell us what it is -- what it is that he told you

 5     happened to these people during one of the operations, one of the

 6     survivors who was in that group?

 7        A.   Actually, as this square is actually a rectangle, they were in a

 8     building in one of the corners, and then again this is close to the

 9     Tehnotrans company, and that's where a sniper nest was.  On one occasion

10     when the Serbian Army was shelling the area, they probably carried out

11     this operation.  I did not see that.  I was in the cellar.  But this

12     witness told me about that.  He said that they arrested them, tied them

13     up with wire and took them out of Rogatica along the road towards

14     Sarajevo, towards the greenhouse there.  They took them somewhere.  And

15     at one point in time one of these Serb soldiers recognised the survivor

16     and somehow managed to have him spared, but he had to report to the

17     police and the guards at the secondary school centre, and that is indeed

18     what he did, but he didn't know what happened to those other persons.  He

19     didn't know then.  Later on, I and all the rest, we knew these Serb

20     soldiers very well.  We also knew the Serb police very well.  And then

21     little by little we found out from these policemen and from these Serb

22     soldiers -- well, they basically told us all the things that had happened

23     to them and where this group had been killed, and we then realised that

24     all of these people who had been arrested then were killed too.  That's

25     what the Serb soldiers said.  They were killed underneath the bridge in

Page 3702

 1     the area close to the Partisan cemetery.

 2             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, I would tender this exhibit

 3     65 ter 28449 into evidence as a public exhibit.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28449 becomes Exhibit P314,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 9             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can I now have 65 ter 12229 on the screens,

10     please.  Public display is okay for this document.

11        Q.   Sir, can you just have a look at the first page of this B/C/S

12     document and tell me whether you recognise this document and you have

13     reviewed it in preparation for your testimony.

14        A.   Yes.

15             MS. D'ASCOLI:  This is the exhumation report from the Paklenik

16     pit where the remains of the people from Rogatica named by the witness

17     were identified.

18        Q.   Sir, just a question:  Do you remember identifying also in this

19     report the names of the men from Rogatica that you knew, these men that

20     we just saw on the table and they were hiding with you in the cellars, in

21     the basements during the shelling of Rogatica?  Do you remember that?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, we will be tendering, of course,

24     this exhumation record through proof of that witnesses, and at this time

25     I just wanted to establish the connection between the people from

Page 3703

 1     Rogatica and the other evidence of the witness today.  We will, of

 2     course, make the appropriate submissions as to names, et cetera, unless

 3     the Court feels that I should go through the names one by one at this

 4     stage.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber does not insist on going one by one.

 6     However, it should be clear what has been shown to the witness.  65 ter

 7     numbers are still changeable.  MFI numbers are not.

 8             Madam Registrar, this document to be MFI'd and then later

 9     tendered would receive what number?

10             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, Your Honours.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 12229 becomes Exhibit P315 marked for

12     identification, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And keeps that status until the Prosecution will

14     tender it.  Please proceed.

15             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can we now go into private session for a moment,

16     please.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3704

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

21             MS. D'ASCOLI:

22        Q.   Sir, my last set of questions.

23             MS. D'ASCOLI:  In the meantime, could I have on the screens P178,

24     which is the municipalities map book, and could you please turn to

25     page 28.

Page 3705

 1        Q.   Sir, in your statement you say the two mosques of Rogatica, the

 2     Carsija mosque and the Arnaudija mosque were destroyed by the end of 1992

 3     and only remains were left of these mosques.  For the record, this is

 4     paragraph 83.  You also say that you remember that one mosque was

 5     destroyed at the end of June or beginning of July and you describe how

 6     that happened.  Now, do you remember which one of the two mosques was the

 7     one that was destroyed at the end of June or beginning of July 1992?

 8        A.   That was the upper mosque or as people used to call it,

 9     Arnaudija.

10        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  So you discussed how a soldier, Danko Neric -

11     now, this is in the following paragraphs - was involved in the

12     destruction of this mosque.  Do you remember if he was wearing a uniform

13     and if yes which type of uniform he was wearing?

14        A.   He had an army uniform, the uniform of the former

15     Yugoslav People's Army, colour olive drab.  He didn't have a cap, but he

16     had the insignia, because Serb soldiers habitually before any actions put

17     insignia on their uniforms, and those were of different colours.  And he

18     had his small arms or sidearms with him.

19        Q.   Sir, was there also a Catholic church or different Catholic

20     churches in Rogatica, if you know?

21        A.   Yes, opposite the Veljko Vlahovic secondary centre.  That's where

22     the Catholic church was, and that was the only Catholic church in town.

23        Q.   And do you know if that was destroyed, too, in the summer 1992?

24        A.   No.  It remained intact, for at least as long as I was in

25     Rogatica.  I don't know what happened afterwards.

Page 3706

 1        Q.   Sir, if you can now look at the map on the screen, this map

 2     labels the mosque in Rogatica as well as the Vlahovic Secondary School.

 3     So, now, first of all, based on your memory, do you think the -- the map

 4     or where the arrows are accurately reflects the position more or less of

 5     the -- of the mosques according to what you remember?

 6        A.   Yes.  This is where they were as indicated in the map.  I think

 7     it's correct.

 8        Q.   And also if you look at the photos, for example -- and also the

 9     aerial photo of the Vlahovic school, do you think, according to what you

10     remember, is it -- are these photos an accurate depiction of the mosque

11     before and after the destruction and also of the aerial place where the

12     Vlahovic school was located?

13        A.   Yes, these are accurate photographs depicting

14     Veljko Vlahovic Secondary School and its location, and the other two

15     photographs show the places where the mosques of Rogatica used to stand.

16        Q.   And now, sir, who controlled Rogatica, as far as you know,

17     between June and December 1992?

18        A.   During this whole period, it was the Serb army and the Serb

19     police who had control over Rogatica.

20             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Witness, thank you.  I don't have other questions

21     for you at this stage.

22             Your Honours, that concludes my examination.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. D'Ascoli.  Yes.  Judge Moloto would

24     like to ask one question.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just one question before we leave this page here,

Page 3707

 1     sir.  At page 73 of today's transcript, lines 4 to 8, the Prosecutor

 2     asked you this question -- well, beg your pardon, you answered the

 3     question as to what this policeman was wearing, and you said:

 4             "He had an army uniform, the uniform of the former

 5     Yugoslav People's Army, colour olive drab.  He didn't have a cap," or

 6     it's written "camp" here but I heard you say cap, "but he had the

 7     insignia, because Serb soldiers habitually before any actions put

 8     insignia on their uniforms."

 9             My question to you is:  What insignia did he have on his uniform?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember the order of

11     colours because that was often changed, but at that moment or on that

12     day, I think it was red and white ribbon tied to epaulette and they were

13     flying a bit.  I remember that specifically, because I was wondering what

14     was that, but later on through experience we learned that that was some

15     kind of recognition sign among members of the Serb army.  In the course

16     of operation what they actually indicated and what was the meaning of

17     those insignia I really don't know.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, are you ready to start your

20     cross-examination?  Could you give us an indication as to how much type

21     you would approximately need.

22             MR. IVETIC:  I am, Your Honour, and I estimate approximately two

23     hours, maybe just over two hours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then perhaps it's good to already inform the

25     witness.  Witness RM081, today we have another 15 minutes to go.  We do

Page 3708

 1     not sit in this afternoon.  Which means that we'll continue after the

 2     weekend, on Monday morning, but Mr. Ivetic now already starts questioning

 3     you.  Mr. Ivetic, you'll find him to your left, he's standing, and

 4     Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.

 5             Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 8        Q.   Good day, Witness RM081.  Today I'll be asking you some questions

 9     to better understand your testimony.  I propose to begin with some

10     matters that arise out of some prior statements that were disclosed to

11     us.  To protect your identity, I therefore propose that we go into

12     private session for these questions.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3709











11 Pages 3709-3713 redacted. Private session.















Page 3714

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the curtains be taken up again.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

15             There were a few leftovers.  First one, 1D313, Madam Registrar,

16     would receive.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Number D72, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D72 is admitted into evidence.

19             1D327.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  D73, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

22             1D335.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  D74, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'd forgotten to decide on the admission of

25     P306 where I asked about the authorship of that document.  It's already a

Page 3715

 1     day or two days ago.  P306 is admitted into evidence.

 2             We adjourn for the day --

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. GROOME:  If I could, while we're finalising some of the

 6     business of the week.  Mr. Vanderpuye sent me a note and he's asking that

 7     he neglected to tender 28451, so if Mr. Petrusic is able to address that

 8     just by the number, I don't have it on my screen, but I don't know if he

 9     has an objection to it, but we would tender that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic.

11             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, no objection.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You have no objection.  Could you assist me in

13     telling what it was, because --

14             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, it's the full -- Ms. Stewart informs

15     me it's the full packet of the letter and the reply.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Madam Registrar, 65 ter 28451 would receive?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Would receive number P316, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P316 is admitted into evidence.

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, and then finally Mr. Vanderpuye asked

20     me to inform the Chamber that he has verified that the English transcript

21     for P305 is correct.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That was the unmissing or not missing the -- what

23     was it, the ...

24             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  I believe it was the

25     unannounced -- announced --

Page 3716

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Announced, yes.  We looked in the e-court and we saw

 2     that also in the B/C/S it seems to be correct.  So therefore there seems

 3     to be no further reason not to admit it.  It was marked for

 4     identification under number P305.  P305 is admitted into evidence.  I

 5     don't think it was confidential, so it's exhibited as a public exhibit.

 6     That's hereby on the record.

 7             We adjourn for today, and we'll resume Monday the 8th of October,

 8     at 9.30 in the morning in this same -- in this same Courtroom I.

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.20 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 8th day

11                           of October, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.