121120ED

Page 5419

1 thought never occurred to me, I didn't want it. I was a worker --

2 Q. Sir, I wanted to interrupt you for a moment. I just wanted to

3 ask about the correction to that sentence and I think we have a

4 satisfactory answer on the record now. So I'll be following up with some

5 further questions, but if we can try to keep -- my questions will be

6 short and focused, and if we can try also to have answers that are short

7 and focused.

8 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we now see 65 ter 28543, which also should

9 not be broadcast.

10 Q. Sir, do you recognise the signature at the bottom right which is

11 on the English language version again?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Again, whose signature is that, please?

14 A. Mine.

15 MR. ELDERKIN: Can we also see, please, the last page in both

16 languages and just give the witness time to see the signature there.

17 Q. Sir, looking at the top right, again, is that your signature?

18 A. Yes, but I'd like to ask you to turn up the lighting. I can't

19 see these letters very well and my eyeglasses are not fit for this kind

20 of viewing. Perhaps the screen should be moved closer to me or perhaps

21 further from me.

22 Q. Sir, the Court Usher is coming to assist; if not, I also have

23 hard copies of all the documents that I'm referring to. So if that can't

24 be adjusted then with the leave of the Court and Defence's agreement I

25 can always offer to show those. We're at this stage almost finished with

Page 5420

1 these documents.

2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

3 MR. ELDERKIN:

4 Q. Sir, does that help now that the screen has been blown up

5 further?

6 A. Yes, yes, it does.

7 Q. And is that your signature, please?

8 A. It is. It is.

9 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we can go back, please, just to the first

10 page and zoom in on the area where the date of birth is in the centre of

11 the page about halfway down. You need to go towards the top, please, and

12 right in the middle now.

13 Q. So without reading aloud the date, but do you agree that the

14 figure in the middle of that page should be corrected to give the date of

15 birth that you mentioned earlier?

16 A. I don't see any dates here. My screen is black -- oh, now it is

17 there. This is wrong. This is wrong.

18 Q. I wouldn't ask you to say your actual date of birth because we're

19 in open session, but do you agree that that should be corrected in

20 accordance with the documents that we saw earlier?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Sir, bearing in mind --

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. Bearing in mind the corrections that you have made to these two

25 documents, do these statements truthfully and accurately reflect your

Page 5421

1 answers during your interviews in 1996 and 1998?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Would you give the same answers if you were examined here today

4 under the oath that you have taken and asked the same questions?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I'd tender now these two statements,

7 65 ter 28542, 28543, both under seal. There's also one associated

8 exhibit, 28544. That can be a public exhibit. I also plan to use that

9 with the witness, so I'm happy to wait for tendering that or for it to be

10 numbered now if it will be accepted.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the 1996 statement ... ?

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 28542 becomes Exhibit P531.

13 JUDGE ORIE: P531 is admitted under seal.

14 Next statement.

15 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 28543 becomes Exhibit P532.

16 JUDGE ORIE: P532 is admitted under seal.

17 And then the associated exhibit -- I've not looked at it yet,

18 Mr. Elderkin, but there's no initials or something like that on the

19 sketch?

20 MR. ELDERKIN: There is some handwriting on there which the

21 witness has indicated he doesn't recognise.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then the last one, Mr. Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 28544 becomes Exhibit P533, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, P533 is admitted

25 as a public exhibit.

Page 5422

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. ELDERKIN: I would now like to read a short summary of the

3 witness's evidence.

4 JUDGE ORIE: You've explained to the witness the purpose of it?

5 Yes.

6 MR. ELDERKIN: Indeed.

7 RM063 is a Bosnian Muslim from Foca. He was in Foca when it was

8 attacked by Serb military forces starting on the 6th of April, 1992. He

9 left to go to Gorazde but sought refuge in Pilipovici with other Muslims

10 who were fleeing. On the 26th of April, 1992, the Serbs captured the

11 Muslims in Pilipovici. They separated the men from the women and

12 children. RM063 was among a group of men randomly selected to be shot,

13 but he managed to return to the crowd. The other selected men were shot.

14 The Muslims were taken first to a women's prison at Velecevo,

15 then they were taken to the KP Dom in Foca arriving in the evening.

16 RM063 was detained at the KP Dom for several months. During this period,

17 his weight fell from 85 kilogrammes to 39 kilogrammes. Other detainees

18 were tortured and beaten and many Muslim men were taken away by the Serb

19 guards and never seen again.

20 RM063 was in a group of prisoners taken for exchange on the

21 31st of October, 1992. He was first taken for several days to the police

22 station in Kalinovik, where he was beaten and his ribs broken, kept in

23 solitary confinement, and given no medical treatment. After ten days,

24 RM063 was exchanged.

25 Your Honours, that concludes my summary. I'd like to ask, before

Page 5423

1 I continue with further questions, if the witness is feeling well enough

2 to carry on with questioning or if he needs to take a moment.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we take a short break because

4 this is all coming back to me and I'm crying. I would appreciate a short

5 rest.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: We take a short break, but the curtains should be

8 down for that purpose before the witness can be escorted out of the

9 courtroom.

10 Witness, would five minutes for a short break be okay with you?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's enough.

12 JUDGE ORIE: If you'd like to leave the courtroom, that's okay.

13 If you would like to leave the courtroom for five minutes, that would be

14 okay.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't need to.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Just tell us when you feel good enough to continue,

18 then we'll pull the curtains up again, but take your time.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can start.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Then could the curtains be pulled up again.

21 Mr. Elderkin, you may proceed.

22 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you.

23 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you some additional questions firstly about

24 the detention situation at the KP Dom in Foca.

25 MR. ELDERKIN: And I'd ask that we can see, please, Exhibit P533.

Page 5424

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 MR. ELDERKIN: And this shows the KP Dom.

3 Q. Once it's up, I'd ask if the usher should come, please, with the

4 electronic pen as I'll ask you to point to various parts of the image and

5 explain the site to us.

6 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could rotate it around the left and as large

7 as possible, please, on the screen. That's good. Thank you.

8 Q. Sir, do you recognise this illustration as the KP Dom?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. Using the electronic pen the usher will hand to you, could you

11 please indicate with a number 1 written nice and large the building in

12 which you were first detained. Don't worry about making any mistakes,

13 sir, the usher can always correct that.

14 A. This is pavilion 1 and this is pavilion 2. I was first in

15 pavilion 1 so here is the marking.

16 Q. I understand from your statement, sir, that you were in rooms

17 that had numbers, the first being number 11 and the second being number

18 16. Is that correct or would it help you to see your statement if you

19 can't remember?

20 A. Yes, yes, that is correct.

21 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could zoom in, perhaps, on the building

22 where we have the two markings now, so right in the centre of that open

23 courtyard.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We will lose the markings.

25 MR. ELDERKIN: Ah, I forgot that technical detail.

Page 5425

1 Q. Let's stick with the image we have, sir, and I would say that

2 reading just above your left-hand marking I see a reference which says I

3 think room 11 above the left-hand red dot. Can you see that? I'm afraid

4 the writing is quite small.

5 A. Yes, I can see that. That's right, but I can see it. It's fine.

6 It's just the right size.

7 Q. Is that where you recall the location of room 11?

8 A. Yes. Excuse me, yes. Yes, yes.

9 Q. And now looking at the red marking to the right and a bit lower

10 and there I see handwriting saying "room 16," can you tell me if you can

11 see that writing as well just underneath your red dot?

12 A. Yes, yes, yes, I can see that, yes.

13 Q. Is that where you recall the location of room 16?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And, sir, looking towards the bottom of the screen, so just

16 underneath where it says "room 16," there's a building --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- with three big trees in front of it and there's an arrow

19 pointing upwards saying "ulaz." So what is that building, if you

20 remember?

21 A. That was the -- the entrance was when we went down to the

22 restaurant and when we returned that was the entrance to the building for

23 us, the entrance to the blocks. From the -- I mean, from the blocks into

24 the administration building, and then from the administration building

25 into the blocks, and this -- I think that this was the restaurant where

Page 5426

1 we went to take our meals, this building. Somehow I cannot recognise it

2 at all.

3 Q. That's no problem, sir. I think we can finish with that image

4 for the moment.

5 MR. ELDERKIN: In terms of it having the marked exhibit admitted,

6 I think I've indicated enough information based on the basic image that

7 we don't necessary need to save this, but I'm in Your Honour's hands if

8 you prefer to have that saved.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, since we invited the witness to mark it then I

10 think it would for the understanding of the testimony better to have it

11 on the record and saved. The Chamber wonders to what extent the layout

12 of the buildings for this witness is of such importance that further

13 questions should be put to him on the matter. I do not know. There may

14 be some follow-up and challenges to the layout, but from what we've seen

15 until now it's not entirely clear why the layout needs this kind of

16 attention.

17 Mr. Registrar, the sketch marked by the witness would be?

18 THE REGISTRAR: Marked version of Exhibit P533 becomes

19 Exhibit P534, Your Honours.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've got something else to say.

21 This arrow which I'm looking at I only recognise it now. This was the

22 entrance from the pavilions to the administration building. This is

23 where we went in here and this is where we went out, and this is where

24 they took people away and they returned them through this door. So this

25 is the entrance to the administration building and leading outside to the

Page 5427

1 road. I remember. I remember the entrance and the exit now. It's all

2 there.

3 JUDGE ORIE: P --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember all of that. I remember

5 it all, but, gentlemen, it has been almost 20 years ago so one tends to

6 forget a bit and I can't really see well so I have remembered now. So

7 it's as I have just told you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is fine as far as the Chamber is

9 concerned, Witness.

10 P534 is admitted into evidence.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Elderkin.

12 MR. ELDERKIN: We don't need to see that image on screen anymore.

13 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you now about the reasons why you and other

14 Muslims at the KP Dom were held in detention. In your statements you

15 describe how you were first interrogated more than three weeks after you

16 arrived at the KP Dom. My first question is: What was the reason that

17 you were detained?

18 A. I don't understand that at all. I wonder why myself. I was an

19 employee of an enterprise and I got along nicely with the Serbs. I

20 visited their homes. I used to work in their homes. I worked together

21 with them. We would greet each other. We liked each other. We

22 socialised and everything. I don't know why at all, but let me describe

23 to you how it all began. I don't know what was the reason for me to have

24 been kept in prison for such a long time. There was no indictment

25 whatsoever. I did not have any weapons. I didn't kill anyone. I didn't

Page 5428

1 rape anyone. I didn't torch any house. I didn't do anything. I was an

2 employee, a worker. I worked. Whoever needed my service, a Serb or a

3 Muslim, or anyone, I helped everyone in my life. I helped the poor. I

4 helped those who were in want. I helped to men, children, women, the

5 elderly, to everyone as much as I could --

6 Q. Excuse me, sir --

7 A. -- and I only relied on -- yes.

8 Q. So thank you again for your answer. I understand you have a lot

9 to say. Please do listen carefully to my questions and I will try to

10 lead you through in a structured way to hear what you have to tell the

11 Court. My next question: Were you ever charged with any offence while

12 you were a detainee at the KP Dom?

13 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness just told us, isn't it,

14 Mr. Elderkin? It would be good not only to focus on your questions but

15 also to listen to the answers the witness gives. Or is it in his

16 statement? He says there was no indictment whatsoever. That's what he

17 says and I'm --

18 MR. ELDERKIN: Fine. Yes, I see --

19 JUDGE ORIE: The witness, in his statement, we read that he has

20 no criminal record, so ...

21 MR. ELDERKIN: I read the statement to refer to his criminal

22 record prior to the war time period so I --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but now the answer gave the information.

24 Could we perhaps -- Witness, did you gain the impression that you

25 were detained solely because you were a Muslim?

Page 5429

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only because I was a Muslim. I did

2 not do anything. I was at home and they started shelling from all sides.

3 We spent ten days in the basement waiting for the time to pass, for all

4 this to stop. And so --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I interrupt you for a moment. I thought

6 where you said that you had done nothing, that you were not accused of

7 anything, that I just wanted to verify with you whether you thought it

8 was only on the basis of your ethnicity that you were detained.

9 Mr. Elderkin will now put further questions to you.

10 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Your Honours, I'd ask to show a document which has been given a

12 provisional 65 ter number as 65 ter 28561 and it shouldn't be broadcast.

13 It's a list that was drawn up during the witness's proofing yesterday and

14 it's a list of names on which the witness has made comments. The Defence

15 has been provided with this. The list --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could we further zoom in on the -- yes, it's -- the

17 English is between the names and the -- could we still zoom in a bit more

18 for the witness. Yes.

19 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could just scroll down to see the signature

20 at the bottom right.

21 Q. Sir, do you recognise the signature on the bottom right?

22 A. Yes, yes. Yes, that's my signature.

23 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could quickly put on the screen the next

24 two pages to see that those are also signed, please. And the third page,

25 please.

Page 5430

1 Q. Sir, can you confirm that during our meeting yesterday you made

2 the comments summarised in this typed-up document and that you've signed

3 this, showing that you have reviewed those comments?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And do those comments relate to men whose names appear in this

6 list about whom you had some information as to what happened to them when

7 they were taken from the KP Dom?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 28561 as an under

10 seal exhibit.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

12 MR. LUKIC: We'll probably cross-examine this witness on this

13 document to see how he knows all the data contained in the document.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you'd say there's no -- of course you can

15 cross-examine the witness on it.

16 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, but --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Is this an admissibility issue or what's the --

18 MR. LUKIC: Well --

19 JUDGE ORIE: If there would be an objection to the admission,

20 what would be the objection?

21 MR. LUKIC: The objection is that this data was -- has never been

22 provided before in this detail, although the witness testified before.

23 So we would try to investigate further with the witness --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

25 MR. LUKIC: -- about his knowledge.

Page 5431

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: That goes to weight, not to admissibility, but of

3 course you can cross-examine the witness on it.

4 Mr. Registrar, the number of this chart would be ... ?

5 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 28561 becomes Exhibit P535, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence under seal.

7 Please proceed.

8 MR. ELDERKIN:

9 Q. Sir, while you were making your comments about these individual

10 names --

11 MR. ELDERKIN: Perhaps we could zoom out as well, please,

12 actually, so we can see at least part of the document.

13 Q. So while you were making your comments about these names, did you

14 have the opportunity to review statements that you have made in the past

15 aside from the two statements we looked at today?

16 A. No, I did not have an opportunity to review them because these

17 were all statements where I did not mention these people. I remembered

18 them later on and I should have stated their names so I stated them now,

19 yes, yes.

20 Q. Sir, I'd like to turn now to the time when you left the KP Dom to

21 be exchanged, that was at the end of October 1992.

22 MR. ELDERKIN: And can we please see 65 ter 14893 which should

23 not be broadcast, please.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Could we for the witness have the whole screen to be

25 enlarged.

Page 5432

1 MR. ELDERKIN:

2 Q. Sir, are those names clear enough for you to read the text?

3 A. I cannot see it clearly enough. It's a bit blurred.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could we further enlarge and even if only part of --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, like that.

6 MR. ELDERKIN:

7 Q. Sir, could you just read to yourself the names you see on the

8 screen and say when you get to the bottom of what we see on the screen

9 and then we can see the next section, please.

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we see the next section from number 12 down,

12 please.

13 Q. Again, please let us know when you've got to the bottom of that

14 list.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. And again, please let us know when you get to the

17 end.

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could scroll up so that 16 is visible,

20 please.

21 Q. Sir, do you recognise the name at number 16; and if so, whose

22 name is that, please?

23 A. Yes, I recognise it. It is my name.

24 Q. Aside from your name, do you recognise any of the other names on

25 this list as people you knew?

Page 5433

1 A. From the whole list I know more than one-half of the people. I

2 remember them to this day let alone at that time. I knew all the people

3 my neighbours, including Serbs and Muslims and Croats. I am very

4 sociable and I was always the one who sought the company of people in

5 cafe restaurants. I socialised with them, talked --

6 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could go to the top, please, and see the

7 title of the document.

8 Q. You may need to zoom out so I'll read this in English in case

9 it's too small for you to read, sir. It reads:

10 "List of detainees to be released from Foca KPD on

11 21st October 1992 in order to be exchanged."

12 Sir, when were you actually released from the KP Dom?

13 A. Well, it was like this: A policeman, or rather, a guard of

14 theirs came to the door and called out the names. This is what he did

15 every day. When they took people to be shot or to be exchanged, the

16 policeman would come to the door of our room, the room where I was, room

17 number 16, and he would call out the names, Mr. So and so should come

18 out. I didn't know what to do. He also told me to pick up my things, so

19 I did and I went out. And I waited outside while the others from the

20 other pavilions whose names had already been read out gathered. So we

21 were waiting just in front of the door that I showed to you a little

22 while ago leading out from the pavilions and into the administration

23 building and we --

24 Q. Again, sir, excuse me --

25 A. -- waited there in front of the door until about 30 of us

Page 5434

1 gathered --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Elderkin, you asked a question, if I read page 7

3 of this statement I see a specific date mentioned there. So I do not

4 know what you are seeking to add to that, and of course it's clear to the

5 Chamber in view of the list that it's the same moment of the same year.

6 So we are wondering --

7 MR. ELDERKIN: I wanted simply to be fair to draw out the

8 difference in dates between that page and the other hoping for a shorter

9 answer.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 MR. ELDERKIN: But if we can just see the bottom of the exhibit,

12 the bottom left, where there is another signature and a date and I should

13 be finished with this.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please.

15 MR. ELDERKIN:

16 Q. Sir, do you see a signature and the name "Vukovic Milenko,

17 komandir," and then the date of the 30th of October, 1992, there?

18 A. I personally do not know this man, Milenko Vukovic, I don't know

19 him. I just see his signature. It says he's from the military police of

20 Konjic. We were taken precisely by those men. They were called -- I

21 forget now what they were called. They had a particular name. I can't

22 remember. Anyway, they picked us up, shoved us into the car once we had

23 gotten out of the --

24 Q. If I may again interrupt, sir. Excuse me --

25 A. -- administrative building and then --

Page 5437

1 interpreters. It does not mean that anything is wrong. It's for

2 technical reasons.

3 Can we begin?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, you should always switch off your

6 microphone when the witness is answering.

7 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. I forgot about it. Thank you for

8 reminding me.

9 Q. [Interpretation] You have told us that the fighting around Foca

10 began on 6 April 1992; that's what you stated in your statement. Today

11 you said Foca was shelled from all sides. My question is: In 1992 Foca

12 was populated by both Serbs and Muslims; correct?

13 A. Yes, and Croats as well.

14 Q. Thank you. In your statement of 10 February 1996 you say that

15 the attack on Foca lasted 12 days from the 6th until 18 April 1992. Who

16 was defending Foca?

17 A. Nobody, nobody was defending it. I don't know that anybody

18 defended it. I don't know that there was any defence of Foca. I am not

19 aware of that at all.

20 Q. Well then who did the Serbs fight for 12 days?

21 A. They were afraid that there might be army troops in Foca. They

22 wanted to clear the place up before they enter. That's what I know.

23 Q. Let me just sum up briefly to see if this is, indeed, your

24 evidence.

25 A. All right.

Page 5438

1 Q. In Foca Muslims and Serbs were living. Nobody defended the town.

2 Serbs attacked and shelled for 12 days. Is this your evidence?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Did you know anything about SDA armed units in and

5 around Foca?

6 A. I did not know a thing. I wasn't even interested. I was a

7 religious man. I went to the mosque and back around noon. I worked in

8 my basement, in my own house as a tradesman. I prepared my work for

9 Serbs and Muslims alike. And in Foca, in all the businesses, salaries

10 were very low and I wanted to live normally. I wanted to earn my living.

11 That's all I was interested in.

12 Q. May we then conclude that you do not know which of the detained

13 people had participated in that fighting because you don't know who was

14 armed?

15 A. We shall conclude that I don't know which of the detainees had

16 been involved in the fighting because I really don't know that.

17 Q. Thank you. On the 13th of April, 1992, you set out towards

18 Gorazde and find shelter in a military depot?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The soldiers in that depot were of all ethnicities; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Then you say you managed to send your son off to Sarajevo by

24 military helicopter?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5439

1 Q. Where did your son depart for Sarajevo from?

2 A. A helicopter arrived from Sarajevo bringing food for troops,

3 their salaries, and whatnot. It landed in Pofalici [as interpreted]

4 between the hangars. These hangars served as warehouses or depots, I

5 don't really know. We were taking cover in one of the hangars from the

6 shooting, so shooting was going on. Anyway, this helicopter arrived from

7 Sarajevo. It brought supplies to this army company - I don't know what

8 else to call it. It brought equipment, food, salaries, and was supposed

9 to go back to Sarajevo. And the thing is, my son was working in Sarajevo

10 at the time and I'm telling you the truth, only the truth. He had come

11 to see me for the holiday of Bajram. It's a Muslim holiday. He had

12 arrived from Sarajevo, being still a student at the time, to wish me a

13 merry holiday and he was supposed to go back to Sarajevo the very next

14 day. However, returning was impossible because there were barricades all

15 around, a barricade towards Gorazde, on all sides. When I left my house

16 and started to look around, he accompanied me. And when that helicopter

17 arrived, I needed so badly to get him back to Sarajevo. He had already

18 graduated from university, actually. He was already working as an

19 engineer for a company. I needed to get him back there. I had no idea

20 that the war had started and was going to rage in Sarajevo and in Foca --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I interrupt you for a second. First

22 of all, because Mr. Elderkin is on his feet.

23 Mr. Elderkin.

24 MR. ELDERKIN: It's not an objection, but I see the name of the

25 place where the helicopter landed recorded as Pofalici. I've never heard

Page 5440

1 of that place. I wanted to see if it had been picked up correctly for

2 the sake of the transcript.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, also because there is -- one second, please,

4 Witness. There is a Pofalici in Sarajevo as well. That's -- now, first

5 of all, you said it landed in Pofalici. Is Pofalici somewhere near Foca

6 or in Foca, Witness?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I did not say "Pofalici"

8 and I will never say. It's Pilipovici.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, that's --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's a place, Pilipovici.

11 JUDGE ORIE: That's now clear on the record.

12 Witness, could I ask you: The only thing Mr. Lukic asked you is

13 from where that helicopter left. Then you started telling us the whole

14 story about it. Could I ask you to focus your answers very much on the

15 precise question of Mr. Lukic.

16 And, Mr. Lukic, I don't have to tell you that it's up to you to

17 get the witness back on track, apart from what the relevance of your

18 question was which is not yet clear to us exactly. Please proceed.

19 MR. LUKIC: I didn't want to start with interruptions

20 immediately, Your Honour. I just tried to [overlapping speakers] --

21 JUDGE ORIE: That is appreciated.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] relationship with the witness.

23 JUDGE ORIE: That is appreciated. I think you were wise to do

24 that. The issue is where do we stop. Please proceed.

25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 5441

1 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, we are a bit short on time and we are

2 restricted. You noticed that the Prosecutor also sought brief answers,

3 and I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions as well

4 briefly.

5 A. All right.

6 Q. You left the military depot on the 26th of April, 1992; correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. That depot was taken over by units made up of various uniformed

9 men, including some in civilian clothes carrying weapons?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is it correct that they all had beards and long hair and had

12 cockades on their caps?

13 A. Yes, a variety of these things.

14 Q. When you got to the KP Dom in Foca, those people who were taking

15 you from the depot after having taken over the depot handed you over to

16 the guards at the KP Dom; correct?

17 A. Yes, that's correct. They handed us over to the guards of the

18 KP Dom and then those guards took us to Velecevo -- let me not repeat

19 what I've said before.

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 Q. Presented to RM063 in the course of proofing on 19 November 2012.

24 I will not show you the list again but you know which list I'm talking

25 about, the list of names?

Page 5442

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you know all these names by heart or did somebody refresh

3 your memory and put those names to you as written here?

4 A. I knew most of them by name. I could remember their faces. I

5 talked to them before the war. I knew them before the war.

6 Q. You described for us the conditions of the KP Dom.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In several passages you said you'd heard from other people, such

9 as Hasan, that they were beaten by neighbours. Was that an important

10 point? Did they have a disagreement from before? What did Hasan say?

11 Why did his neighbours beat him?

12 A. He didn't say anything. It's just that when he was brought back

13 from Sabljica [phoen] on a stretcher, through tears and moaning he said,

14 I was beaten up by my own neighbours.

15 Q. [Microphone not activated]

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, microphone, please.

18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. [Interpretation] When you arrived at the KP Dom, were you

20 registered?

21 A. They did not register us.

22 Q. You say they called out your names in form of a roll call or

23 something.

24 A. They did not.

25 Q. They called you out later, didn't they?

Page 5443

1 A. Later they came to our rooms and took our names.

2 Q. So you were registered, although not upon arrival but later?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us call up in e-court

6 65 ter 08193.

7 Q. Just a moment, sir, this is a technical matter. You can take a

8 rest while it's done.

9 Witness, sir, we have received this document from the

10 Prosecution.

11 A. Could you zoom in a little so I can see more clearly?

12 Q. Could we just look at the heading. Can you see now?

13 A. Not really.

14 Q. Do you see now that the penitentiary correctional facility of

15 Foca is addressing on 15 May 1992 the Crisis Staff of the Serb

16 Municipality of Foca?

17 A. I don't know who's addressing who. I can see what's written

18 here. I can't see very well, but I see, yes. Staff Foca. Could you

19 scroll up a bit.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we zoom out a little now.

21 Q. Did you know at that time that the Crisis Staff of the

22 Serbian Municipality of Foca decided who would be released from the

23 KP Dom and who not?

24 A. No, we never knew that.

25 Q. Did you know Enes Zekovic?

Page 5444

1 A. I did.

2 Q. Do you know that he was released from the KP Dom and that he

3 returned to the town of Foca?

4 A. Enes Zekovic, he stayed on in the KP Dom after I had left.

5 Q. All right.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please see 08444 in

7 e-court.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, before you continue, you asked the

9 witness whether he knew that the Crisis Staff decided who would be

10 released. Is that because you think that is said in this document?

11 Because it doesn't say so, isn't it? It just says that they were

12 addressed and expected to take further action, whatever that action would

13 be, whether they would decide themselves, whether they would decide

14 together with others, whether others would decide. At least that does

15 not appear from this document. I just wanted to clarify this with you.

16 MR. LUKIC: I will show three more documents, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay --

18 MR. LUKIC: It might be more clear after.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but on the basis of this document and the

20 witness apparently not knowing anything about it, the best way would have

21 done to ask the witness: Do you know who decided on the release of

22 prisoners? Because with the document, if he has no knowledge of the

23 document, if he has no knowledge at all about this matter, then there's

24 no need to show him such kind of documents. You can bar table them or

25 introduce them in any other way, but please proceed.

Page 5445

1 MR. LUKIC: Since it was proposed by the Prosecution to be

2 introduced through this witness, we tried to explore the same matter,

3 although the Prosecution didn't address the document in their direct

4 examination.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I do not know for what purpose the Prosecution

6 intended to do so to establish that Mr. Krnojelac was the commander of

7 the penitentiary institution, or I do -- I have got no idea. And I'm

8 just addressing you at this moment since you're using it. Please

9 proceed.

10 MR. LUKIC: And we have the wrong document on the screen. I'm

11 sorry. I wanted to call 09278.

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, we shall not dwell on this very

13 long. Let me just ask you this: Do you know, as His Honour Judge Orie

14 suggested that I should ask you, who decided on the intake and release of

15 prisoners at the Foca KP Dom at the time?

16 A. From what I heard, Momo Mandic was the main man for all these

17 camps and at the Crisis Staff it was Todovic - what was his first name?

18 I can't remember really, I've forgotten - Todovic was the one. I don't

19 know, but Todovic was there and we looked through the window. Whenever

20 he prayed, whenever he appeared, he entered the compound of the KP Dom

21 between the pavilions and the administration building. He used to pass

22 through there and we used to look at him. He came to the restaurant for

23 breakfast and lunch, Todovic. I can't remember his first name.

24 Q. Savo Todovic?

25 A. Yes, Savo Todovic, that's right.

Page 5446

1 Q. All right. Now that you've mentioned Mr. Mandic --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. -- can we please see the document 11178 in e-court. While it's

4 being pulled up, let me ask you: Do you know by whose orders the

5 investigators at the KP Dom Foca were working?

6 A. No, I don't know.

7 Q. Thank you. Here we have a document showing that a person by

8 order of the Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Foca was

9 released from the KP Dom on the 7th of July, 1992. And I will ask you

10 this: Did you know Ibrahim Celik?

11 A. Ibrahim Celik?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. I only saw him when he left. I knew him -- I saw him in the room

14 when he left, and he hoped - it was as if he had a hunch or it was some

15 sort of agreement - that he would leave. And I know that he did leave,

16 nothing more.

17 Q. Do you remember approximately could that have taken place in

18 July?

19 A. Yes, I think it was about that time.

20 MR. LUKIC: We would tender this document, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.

22 Mr. Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours 65 ter number 11178 becomes

24 Exhibit D103.

25 JUDGE ORIE: D103 is admitted into evidence.

Page 5447

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one question to the witness in relation

2 to this document.

3 I see on the bottom of this document the name Radovan Mandic.

4 Witness, is that the same person as Momo Mandic as you told us this name

5 earlier?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't heard of Radovan Mandic

7 but I have heard of Momo Mandic. I'm not certain if it was the one or

8 the other. I know Momo Mandic. But as for Radovan Mandic, I don't know

9 him, no, and this is not clear to me.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

11 MR. LUKIC: Bear with me, Your Honours.

12 [Defence counsel confer]

13 MR. LUKIC: I think the next document can clarify Judge Fluegge's

14 question, if we can see the document 11167 on the screen, please.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, are you about to establish the identity

16 of Mr. Momcilo Mandic or is there any dispute about it -- about his

17 identity and about his position at the time?

18 MR. LUKIC: I need one more clarification from the witness --

19 JUDGE ORIE: From the witness --

20 MR. LUKIC: If he can give it to us --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because he said he only heard about the

22 position of Momo Mandic. Please proceed.

23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, you know that Milorad Krnojelac was

25 the head of the KP Dom in Foca at the time?

Page 5448

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You also mentioned Momo Mandic. Did you know that he was the

3 justice minister at the time?

4 A. I know that he was the deputy minister of the interior in

5 Sarajevo. This is what I know, but what he was in the Serbian republic I

6 wouldn't know.

7 Q. Thank you. Did you know at the time that all prisons in the

8 former Yugoslavia were actually under the control of the

9 Ministry of Justice?

10 A. No, I didn't know that.

11 Q. All right. Thank you.

12 MR. LUKIC: We will not tender this since the witness didn't

13 confirm that the relationship between Ministry of Justice and detention

14 facilities.

15 JUDGE ORIE: No. I don't know whether there's any dispute about

16 this, but ...

17 That's -- perhaps on the next break to discuss whether these

18 matters are in dispute or not.

19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please bring back the

22 document - [In English] I have to match the numbers - [Interpretation]

23 P536.

24 Q. First of all, you know what this is, don't you? The Prosecutor

25 showed you the list of people who were released from the KP Dom in Foca

Page 5449

1 in order to be exchanged, and under number 16 on this list we can see

2 your name as well. And I will ask you something relating to this

3 document.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So can we please now zoom in on the

5 top of this document with the date. And if we can zoom in so that the

6 witness can see it.

7 JUDGE ORIE: It should not be broadcast.

8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, it's under seal. I think that Mr. Registrar has

9 much better control over this issue than us.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, we can see here that it is written in the

11 document that the persons are released from the KPD Foca on the

12 21st of October, 1992. Were you released from the Foca KPD thereabouts?

13 A. No. We were released on the 31st of October from the KP Dom and

14 we went in the direction of Tjentiste, then Kalinovik, and, yes, we had

15 to go around in order to reach Kalinovik.

16 Q. All right. Something was not clear to me, though the Chamber

17 said that it was clear to them, so thank you for explaining to me the

18 confusion about the dates in this document.

19 A. You're welcome.

20 Q. You said that you know half of the people from this list?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And do you know where the other half of the people were from?

23 Because I suppose that if they had been from Foca you would have known

24 them.

25 A. They were all from the Foca municipality, but they came from

Page 5450

1 various places: Miljevina, Bijelic, Ustikolina, and so on. But they

2 were all from the Foca municipality. That's why I know them, because I

3 had contacts with many people. I know almost everyone but I cannot

4 remember now because it's been 20 years now and I have this trauma and I

5 was also ill, so it's very difficult for me to remember everything.

6 Q. [Microphone not activated]

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 Microphone for the counsel, please.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I think microphone was switched on, so we can

10 proceed.

11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, do you know where the villages

13 Cerovo Ravni, and Osanice were located? Were they in the Foca

14 municipality?

15 A. The village is Osanica rather than Osanice. Ravni, I don't know.

16 And as for Osanica, and what was the other one you mentioned?

17 Q. Cerovo Ravni, yes, I know.

18 A. Cerovo Ravni, it's up towards -- towards --

19 Q. Is it in the Foca municipality?

20 A. Yes, yes. It's Slatina, Cerova Ravan, it's a village like a

21 meadow so it was called Cerova Ravan. I went there. That was where

22 people mostly gathered on the 27th of July for a picnic, you know, in the

23 former Yugoslavia when we celebrated. So there was a celebration and so

24 on.

25 Q. You mean the day of the uprising in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

Page 5451

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. It's not in the transcript, so I will ask you again. You mean

3 the day of the uprising from the Second World War was celebrated?

4 A. Yes, yes. Cerova Ravan, Preluca, yes, I know all these places.

5 Q. Thank you. Did you hear at the time about the fighting that was

6 going on between the forces loyal to Alija Izetbegovic and the forces of

7 the Serbs in these places, Cerovo Ravni and Osanica?

8 A. No, I didn't hear, no.

9 Q. You don't know how big -- how many troops were there?

10 A. No, no, no, nothing at all. I've no idea at all about this

11 because I didn't really listen to that sort of thing much. I had my

12 duty. I needed to work to make something for people. I'm a handyman and

13 I wanted to earn a few dinars. That was what was important for me.

14 Q. Just a second. Did you know Mujko Zametica?

15 A. Mujko, yes, I did.

16 Q. How did you know him? What did he do?

17 A. I knew him as a miner. He used to work in warehouse. He issued

18 tools for the miners who were going to the pit to work. This is what he

19 did and this is how I remember him.

20 Q. You don't know anything about his political or military

21 engagement?

22 A. No, no, I don't know anything.

23 Q. Do you know who were the main SDA people in Foca?

24 A. I don't know, no.

25 Q. All right. Thank you.