Page 7741
1 Thursday, 31 January 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused not present]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 The Chamber was informed that the Prosecution wanted to raise a
11 preliminary matter.
12 MR. SHIN: Yes. Thank you very much, Your Honours. Good
13 morning. And good morning to counsel.
14 Just very briefly following on -- up on an issue yesterday, the
15 Prosecution wishes to confirm for the Chamber that we did provide a copy
16 of that media article that we had discussed yesterday afternoon by e-mail
17 to counsel. The article was disclosed in October of 2011 in batch 4(C).
18 It was also listed in our 92 ter motion and a seven day notice by
19 description and ERN. Finally, as Your Honour had correctly noted, the
20 document had actually appeared last week in this case on the Defence
21 exhibit list for Witness RM055 under Defence 65 ter 1D00568.
22 JUDGE ORIE: That's hereby all on the record.
23 Then I'd like to put on the record at this moment that Mr. Mladic
24 was offered an opportunity yesterday, after he been removed from the
25 courtroom, to follow the proceedings on a television screen but that he
Page 7742
1 preferred not to use that opportunity.
2 Then we turn into closed session.
3 [Closed session]
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25 [Open session]
Page 7743
1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to remind you that you are
4 still bound by the solemn declaration that you took at the beginning of
5 your testimony.
6 [In English] Mr. Lukic, if you are ready, please proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 WITNESS: RM120 [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
11 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
12 You spoke briefly about the cessation -- the cease-fire
13 agreement. Did you know that in Sarajevo the Serbs were constantly
14 offering a lasting cease-fire, that it was on the table, continuously,
15 this offer, by the Serbs?
16 A. The aim of the UN interposition forces were to try and make sure
17 that either party would not launch any military operation. And as
18 regards Sector Sarajevo, international soldiers were trying to restrict
19 military operations.
20 I'm not sure one can assert that Serb forces were looking for a
21 cease-fire. I'm unable to say anything about that.
22 Q. Thank you. Did you know that the Serb side was also -- also
23 constantly asking for the demilitarization of Sarajevo?
24 A. I haven't seen any document, and international troops did not see
25 any document to that effect. What I know is that, on either side, in
Page 7744
1 Sarajevo and outside of Sarajevo there were soldiers as well as military
2 equipment.
3 Q. Do you have your statement, sir, in the French version in front
4 of you?
5 A. Yes, I have it. Yes.
6 Q. Let us look at page 55, paragraph 3 of the French version. It is
7 page 55, paragraph 4, in the English version. And, in the B/C/S version,
8 it is page 80, paragraph 9.
9 We shall just briefly focus on this here. You say that the Serbs
10 turned off the gas supply for the city. Did you know that the gas supply
11 to Sarajevo was exactly cut off in Serbia at the orders of Russia, in the
12 event that gas had not been paid for?
13 A. The people whom international soldiers were -- were talking to,
14 the people in -- in charge of repair, on that particular subject, could
15 only speak about it with liaison officers and, in particular, with
16 Colonel Indic.
17 Regarding what you've just said, well, it -- it wasn't, of
18 course, within the responsibilities of the people who were stationed
19 in -- in Sarajevo. These things were happening at a level that wasn't
20 our level.
21 Q. Very well. Thank you. Let us now move onto the part which has
22 the title: "Chronology." That is immediately after this title which
23 refers to the cease-fire agreement.
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's note: Which page is that?
25 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreter is asking, the page, is that also
Page 7745
1 55? That's where we were previously.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It can only be the next page
4 [Microphone not activated] [In English] Your Honour, in English version
5 it's actually the same page. I don't know about the French. Should
6 be -- I'm just informed that it's the -- [Overlapping speakers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: The chronology starts at page 55, as well, in the
8 French.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. [Interpretation] So we're talking about September 1994. This, in
12 your respect, started at the end of the month when you started your stint
13 at UNPROFOR.
14 Can we now go to page 57, the second paragraph of the -- of the
15 French version. Page 57, paragraph 4 of the English version. Page 83,
16 paragraph 9 in the B/C/S.
17 There you say the zone was actually not demilitarised until the
18 beginning of 1995. My question is: Are you saying here that the zone
19 was demilitarised at the beginning of 1995?
20 [In English] It's the last sentence in that paragraph.
21 MR. SHIN: Okay.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin.
23 MR. SHIN: Just if my colleague could clarify. Is his intent to
24 ask about the Igman zone, which appears to be the preceding reference to
25 his zone in that paragraph.
Page 7746
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the zone, what did you refer to?
2 MR. LUKIC: That's -- it's the Igman zone.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Igman zone. So the question now is whether it's the
4 testimony of this witness that the Igman zone was demilitarised in the
5 beginning [realtime translation read in error "end"] of 1995.
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please answer that question.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I request that we move into
9 private session, Your Honour. May I request that we move into private
10 session, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
12 And there seems to be a little problem with the transcript.
13 [Private session]
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Page 7747
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13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
16 MR. LUKIC:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, the last paragraph on the same page, that
18 is page 57 in French; also, the last paragraph in English and on page 57;
19 and the second paragraph, on page 84 of the B/C/S version, where you say:
20 "The north part of the demilitarised zone was held by the
21 Bosnians. There were some Serbs in the southern part. On the night
22 between 5 and 6 October, the Bosnians attacked a Serb command post. Most
23 of the people at the Serb command post were asleep. The Bosnians killed
24 with knives the 17 Serbs located there."
25 It is not of great importance, but 20 -- 20 persons were killed.
Page 7748
1 Did you hear that among those 20 persons there were four nurses, four
2 women?
3 A. The UN forces learned about it relatively quickly, and they were
4 instructed to try and identify the Bosnians who had carried out this
5 operation.
6 Q. Did you manage to catch them, or to actually find out who the
7 perpetrators had been?
8 A. Obviously if we managed to catch and identify them, we would have
9 taken them to court, to a court that would have jurisdiction.
10 Q. Did you find out in your investigations that the bodies had been
11 massacred and partly burned?
12 A. I can't remember this particular point. The different reports
13 didn't specify this.
14 Q. Very well. We shall come to that.
15 Let me ask you this: After this, there was a shelling of the
16 city to retaliate for the attack for the 6th of October, and that attack
17 took place -- do you know whether the Serbs were actually shelling the
18 unit and the command post of -- of the fighters that had massacred the
19 people at the Serb command post?
20 A. As I indicated in my amalgamated statement, we knew, of course,
21 about this action, actions that were taken to try and find the
22 perpetrators, but we never knew whether these are retaliation shelling
23 that we heard were aiming at shelling a Bosnian command post.
24 Q. And let us now move onto page 58, third paragraph of the English
25 and French versions; same page, 84, the last paragraph of the B/C/S
Page 7749
1 version. There you say:
2 "What happened on Igman was something that concerned the two
3 warring factions. The UNPROFOR was not involved. They were only able to
4 observe what happened."
5 So according to you, in this part of your statement, UNPROFOR had
6 no authority over the -- these events, that event.
7 However, if we go to page 4 of your statement, namely, question
8 number 1, and answer to that question, it is also page 4 of the English
9 version, and it is the fifth page of the B/C/S version. And you say
10 there:
11 "Even before the beginning of my stay in Sarajevo, the mission
12 involved other responsibilities, such as monitoring the demilitarised
13 zone."
14 Now, in connection with this, we shall -- we shall also take a
15 look at document 1D611.
16 MR. LUKIC: Do we have e-court on our screens? Oh, now we do.
17 Q. [Interpretation] This is an UNPROFOR document of its B and H
18 Command, its civil affairs office, of the 10th of October, 1994. That is
19 to say, six days after the funeral at Igman.
20 In point 2, we can see that they're at a meeting. Point one we
21 see that General Rose addressed the meeting. And in point 2 we see that:
22 "General Mladic began by condemning UNPROFOR for having failed to
23 enforce the Igman agreement and thus for having brought about the deaths
24 of 20 Serb soldiers ..."
25 On the next page, that is, in the B/C/S version, it is the same
Page 7750
1 page in the English version, it says:
2 (redacted)
3 [In English] We should not translate this document. Maybe we
4 move into a private session?
5 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
6 [Private session]
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23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
Page 7758
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. So we are talking about your statement and the part where it says
3 that the Bosnians did not use weapons that were in the Weapons Collection
4 Points that were in the Bosnian-held territory.
5 Nevertheless, Bosnians opened fire from heavy weaponry, from
6 within the city of Sarajevo itself. Here, in this document, in which
7 Mr. Akashi is reporting to Mr. Annan in New York, on the 8th of June,
8 1995, in paragraph 3, we see that it says:
9 "[In English] The BSA employed tanks and the B and H used mortars
10 fired from Tito barracks."
11 [Interpretation] So the Marsal Tito barracks was within the
12 centre of Sarajevo itself; isn't that right?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. Did you know at the time this same thing that Mr. Akashi knew?
15 A. The UN forces that were positioned on the ground were not that
16 naive. Naive enough to believe that all weapons had been put together in
17 the Weapons Collection Points, and they didn't think either that the
18 warring factions had not kept any weapon at all.
19 So both sides fired, and, here, we're talking about the Tito
20 barracks, but it has to be taken in the wider sense, of course, (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted). Which means that the
24 Bosnians fired from the vicinity of the Tito barracks, probably with
25 weapons that they had kept, but that were not coming from the Weapons
Page 7759
1 Collection Points.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we go to the private session now,
3 Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We return into private session.
5 [Private session]
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10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
13 Mr. Lukic can we remain in open session or should we move to
14 private session?
15 MR. LUKIC: We have to go to private session.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
17 [Private session]
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24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
Page 7788
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
2 Mr. Lukic, have you got until 25 minutes past midday.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And I leave it to you whether we can remain in open
5 session or if we should --
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we can.
7 [Interpretation] Can we have document 10185 uploaded in e-court.
8 Q. This document, sir, is referred to in your statement. It is
9 referred to in the tab, tab 22493. And in our own reference, it's 10185.
10 In this document, which is in front of us, the third
11 paragraph from the top.
12 So:
13 "Due to the lack of success and enormous losses in their ranks,
14 the enemy artillery is fiercely attacking along the entire front line and
15 the inhabited places."
16 Were you aware of the fact that the Muslim artillery was shelling
17 Serb civilian settlements and did UNPROFOR undertake any measures in that
18 connection?
19 A. It's hard for me to answer this question because I wasn't there.
20 I don't know if -- if there was firing. I wasn't there. I don't know.
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 A. I don't remember either way. I don't remember whether -- if --
25 Q. Very well. If they did report, that's all right. If they did
Page 7789
1 not, that is all right too.
2 Let us move on.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We now need 1D615. This is link to
4 page 84, the seventh paragraph from the top in French; page 83, last
5 paragraph, in English.
6 You say that the forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina were almost
7 entirely employed along the line of confrontation. The staffs,
8 especially the staff of the 1st -- of the Main Staff of the 1st Corps was
9 in the very centre -- the one under the command of General Karavelic -
10 sorry - was in the centre of Sarajevo.
11 Did you know that the command of the 1st Brigade of the Army of
12 Bosnia and Herzegovina, namely, that the units of the 1st Corps, entered
13 Sarajevo and exited Sarajevo?
14 A. We had no information on the movement of the Bosnian Muslims and
15 their units.
16 Q. Here, in item 1, you can see that the forces are the strength of
17 one battalion, with 400 soldiers and officers; in point 2, engage the
18 following, 280 soldiers, four M-82 mm mortar; and then -- then they refer
19 to the passage through the points of Blinja to Tusnica and arrive at the
20 marching target by 1000 o'clock. Move the replaced battalion so that the
21 next morning at 0600 hours the next battalion would be in Sarajevo.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot see that on the
23 screen.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. When you talk to General Karavelic or some other superior officer
Page 7790
1 in the Army of B and H, did you all talk about the disposition of his
2 units and their entering Sarajevo and exiting from Sarajevo?
3 A. May I request that we move into private session, please.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
5 [Private session]
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Page 7791
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4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. In front of us we have a document dispatched by the Chief of
9 Staff on -- of UNPROFOR, of UNPROFOR's Commands in Sarajevo on the 26th
10 of April 1995 to General Rasim Delic, the commander in-chief of the
11 Main Staff of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
12 It reads, and I quote: [In English] "Subject: 'Heavy Weapon
13 Violations of Safe Areas Exclusion Zones.' Over the last two months an
14 increasing number of heavy weapon violations of safe areas in exclusion
15 zones have been registered by UNPROFOR. These reports have all been
16 confirmed through several independent sources which makes me convinced
17 that you do not observe the relevant Security Council resolutions."
18 [No interpretation] [Microphone not activated] [In English] ...
19 says, from the middle:
20 "We have also been warned that the abuse of principles of safe
21 areas in this way may cause unacceptable and great risks for the civilian
22 population in these areas?"
23 Two paragraphs below:
24 "Therefore, I demand that all heavy weapons within the exclusion
25 zones be returned to the Weapons Collection Points and the safe areas
Page 7792
1 should not be abused by launching military operations from them."
2 [Interpretation] Would this change your opinion and your
3 testimony in -- when you say that the Muslim forces did not retrieve
4 weapons from the WCPs?
5 A. In the document that we have before us, it is indicated that the
6 general who signed the document stated that the weapons in the exclusion
7 zone should be brought to the Weapons Collection Points. To my
8 knowledge, those weapons were not already in the collection points, and
9 in keeping with the agreement, it is, therefore, requested that those
10 weapons be brought to the collection points. In no report was it said
11 that Muslims retrieve weapons from the collection points.
12 Q. Can we then please go back to the fourth paragraph, which I shall
13 re-read [In English] "I demand that all heavy weapons within the
14 exclusion zone be returned to the Weapon Collection Points."
15 [Interpretation] Obviously reference is made here to the need for
16 weapons to be returned, namely, it was taken from there, from those
17 points, before that? Or perhaps you read this sentence differently.
18 A. My personal interpretation of this sentence is slightly
19 different. We were not that naive to believe that all weapons above a
20 certain calibre had been brought to the collection points by both sides.
21 We knew that, on either side, some forbidden, prohibited weapons, were
22 still in -- in -- in -- in the soldiers' possession and what this letter
23 is saying is that those weapons should be brought to the collection
24 points. And the man who signed this document doesn't say whether those
25 weapons had been previously retrieved from the collection points.
Page 7793
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Mr. Lukic is asking you special attention
2 to the use of the word "return."
3 The document doesn't say they should be delivered to the Weapons
4 Collection Points, but it says that they should be returned, which
5 suggests linguistically that they had been there before.
6 Apart from whether you thought that all the weapons had been
7 delivered there, do you have any comment on my understanding, not of the
8 facts but of the language used in this document, as I just explained it
9 to you?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To my knowledge, no report had been
11 drafted under my responsibility, that is, indicating that some weapons
12 might have been extracted --
13 JUDGE ORIE: I'm stopping you there because you do not answer my
14 question.
15 My question is, whether from the language used, whether that
16 language, whether you agree that that suggests that they had been there
17 and were returned, rather than they had to be delivered for the first
18 time at the Weapon Collection Points.
19 Purely linguistically, irrespective of what your knowledge on the
20 ground was at the time.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Linguistically, of course, what
22 you're saying is understandable. But on -- at a linguistic level only.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
Page 7794
1 [Interpretation] 1D613 is the document that we require now.
2 Q. We're going back in your statement. We're going in terms of time
3 in your statement.
4 The 19th of October, 1994, is in question, Mr. Akashi is writing
5 to Mr. Annan. [In English] I quote:
6 "It has been apparent in the last few days that the Bosnian
7 government is deliberately creating obstacles to the withdrawal of its
8 troops from Mountain Igman and the re-establishment of the integrity of
9 demilitarised zone."
10 [Interpretation] Can we now move to page 3, please.
11 Under number 8, I read -- I quote:
12 [In English] "The fact of the matter is that UNPROFOR tries to
13 the best of its ability to implement the mandate contained in the
14 Security Council resolutions pertaining to the humanitarian and military
15 aspects of the situation and exercises continuous pressure, both
16 diplomatically and militarily on the Bosnian Serb side to conform.
17 However, all such efforts are very often compromised by B and H attempts
18 to take advantage of the situation and to transform it to their own
19 military advantage."
20 [Interpretation] Let me ask you this first: Is it a fact that
21 UNPROFOR exerted real pressure only on the Serb side?
22 A. I would like to request that we move into private session,
23 please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
25 [Private session]
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18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
21 MR. SHIN:
22 Q. Mr. Witness, I'd like to continue on this topic of the role of
23 Colonel Indic as you observed it. And I'd like to have what is now P815
24 on e-court, please.
25 Bearing in mind, Mr. Witness, that we are in open session, at
Page 7800
1 this point, and if we could have the second page, please, of both English
2 and the B/C/S. Witness, you'll recall that we had discussed this
3 document here in court. And if we look at the assessment, that last
4 paragraph, the -- you had explained your view of Major Fraser's
5 assessment here, that this was the one occasion in which
6 General Milosevic had been more dominant than Colonel Indic.
7 If you can, and bearing in mind that you -- that -- I'm sorry.
8 The next question has to be in private session.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
10 [Private session]
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 7801
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Page 7801 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 7802
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
16 MR. SHIN: Could I please have the document that is P16 on
17 e-court.
18 And, Your Honours, I would just note briefly, earlier there were
19 questions on both P16 and a document marked 1D00611. They appear to be
20 the same documents, though bearing different ERN numbers.
21 Q. Mr. Witness, bearing in mind that we are in open session, the --
22 you were shown this document earlier and there was a focus on that first
23 page, summary, line -- the third sentence that he - and this is
24 Mr. Mladic, "seemed interested in demilitarising the logistical roads
25 around Sarajevo and in strengthening the cease-fires in the city."
Page 7803
1 I would ask you now to if --
2 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, if we could have the second page brought
3 up. And -- yes, in English as well.
4 Q. If we could focus on the paragraph you were not -- your attention
5 was not brought to this paragraph, but paragraph 8. We see there, in the
6 third sentence:
7 "It is clear that General Mladic has no clear vision of how to
8 and the war," and there may be a typo there, "but that the Contact Group
9 plan is totally unacceptable to him."
10 And if we go to the last sentence in that paragraph, it states:
11 "His preferred strategy, insofar as a strategy was discernible,
12 seemed to be to wait for the other side to accept that it had lost the
13 war."
14 And, again, bearing in mind that we are in open session, does
15 that -- the sentences that I just quoted, does that accord with your
16 assessment of the position of General Mladic?
17 A. At my level, it was difficult to assess the statement. My
18 responsibility was a factual one. I find it difficult to answer that
19 question.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, no further questions from the
22 Prosecution.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Shin.
24 You said that 1D00611 was the same as P16.
25 MR. LUKIC: It's slightly different, but -- at least in the
Page 7804
1 translations. But we admit that P16 is the same document.
2 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that the originals are pretty much the
3 same.
4 No, they are not. There is quite a bit of handwriting at the
5 right top corner of P16, which does not appear on the other document, but
6 basically they are mainly the same, I would agree with that.
7 If there's any problem with translation, could the parties please
8 carefully consider that.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has no questions -- further questions
11 for the witness.
12 Mr. Lukic, apparently the questions in re-examination haven't
13 triggered --
14 MR. LUKIC: No. We don't have anything additional.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then as far as associated exhibits are
16 concerned, have the parties. I think we had nine left finally.
17 First of all, do we need the witness for that?
18 MR. LUKIC: I don't think so.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You don't think.
20 MR. LUKIC: I don't think.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin.
22 MR. SHIN: No, the witness does not need to be here for that.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any other matter for which we would need
24 the presence of the witness? No.
25 Then I suggest that we first turn into closed session.
Page 7805
1 [Closed session]
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
17 Mr. Lukic, any objections against the admission of what I
18 understand to be the nine remaining associated exhibits?
19 Mr. Shin.
20 MR. SHIN: Yes. Your Honours, there is one change from our
21 original estimate of nine which has been occasioned by a specific
22 document the Defence used today. And that would be document 1D00619,
23 which is a letter from General Nicolai to General Delic dated the 26th of
24 April 1995.
25 The -- the -- what this document is, is -- there is an identical
Page 7806
1 letter sent to General Milanovic. The contents are identical but sent to
2 the other side on the same day, and that is on our exhibit list as
3 65 ter 22939, that was a non-associated exhibit which we had not intended
4 to tender. But if the Defence seeks to tender the letter to
5 General Delic, we would ask to tender also the letter to
6 General Milovanovic.
7 JUDGE ORIE: So that makes it perhaps ten instead of nine and not
8 specifically an -- well, not normal associated exhibit.
9 Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: No objections.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. And against none of the others?
12 MR. LUKIC: None of the others.
13 JUDGE ORIE: None of the others.
14 MR. LUKIC: But we want to tender today --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you want to tender.
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Tell us what you want to tender. Would we start
18 with 1D0069 -- 19 or?
19 MR. LUKIC: No, no, it's in the middle of our list.
20 JUDGE ORIE: In the middle of your list.
21 MR. LUKIC: First I would start with the Prosecution's documents
22 from this associated exhibit list, where they didn't tender.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. LUKIC: It's 10063.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I take it no objections, Mr. Shin.
Page 7807
1 MR. SHIN: Yeah. Your Honour, there are no objections from any
2 items from our list.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, the number would be?
4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10062 receives number D146,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: D146 is admitted into evidence. No need to have it
7 under seal, Mr. Lukic.
8 May I invite you to list all the others, because Madam Registrar
9 will then start assigning on from number 147, I take it. Could you --
10 could you just mention the numbers.
11 MR. LUKIC: The next one is 10185.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Next one.
13 MR. LUKIC: 10952.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Next one.
15 MR. LUKIC: 18990.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Next one.
17 MR. LUKIC: 1D575.
18 Next one, 1D00612; 1D00613; 1D00614; 1D00615; 1D00616; 1D00717 --
19 6 -- sorry, 617; 1D00620; 1D00621; 1D00622; 1D00623; 1D00624; 1D00625;
20 1D00626; 1D00627. And we have one more from the Prosecution's list.
21 It's 65 ter number 19749.
22 JUDGE ORIE: In the order, as you mentioned them, I think we are,
23 Madam Registrar, in the range of D147 up to and including D165. All
24 these documents, in this order, are admitted into evidence, under the
25 range of numbers D147 up to and including D165.
Page 7808
1 Mr. Lukic, have you carefully considered whether some of them
2 have to be under seal?
3 MR. LUKIC: I haven't. I haven't checked. We have to check
4 which ones should be admitted under seal.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then provisionally they will all be put under
6 seal and we'll hear from you and we'll then change the status according
7 to your report.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then they we move to the Prosecution's list.
10 MR. SHIN: Yes. I will -- shall I go through them one by one.
11 JUDGE ORIE: If you read them one by one, I do understand that
12 there are no objections, and the first -- Madam Registrar, the first one
13 would receive number?
14 THE REGISTRAR: The first one which is - can check if I have
15 correct - number 05744?
16 MR. SHIN: Just one moment, Your Honours. Please.
17 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Madam Registrar, the first number to be
18 assigned to whatever the document will be?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Will be number P822, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: P822.
21 Mr. Shin, if you would read the numbers and we know that the
22 first one will receive P822.
23 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours.
24 The first one is 65 ter 05744, tendered under seal. The second
25 is 05745, under seal. Next, 09715, under seal. I'm sorry, 09715 is a
Page 7809
1 public exhibit, apologies. The fourth is 10076, under seal. The fifth
2 is 11188, under seal. The sixth is 11198, under seal. Seventh, 11200
3 under seal. Eighth, 11201, under seal. And, ninth, 11210, under seal.
4 And the tenth document we had discussed earlier is 65 ter 22939, as a
5 public exhibit.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In the order you referred to them, starting
7 with 05744, which receives P822, up to and including the last one, being
8 65 ter 22939, which will receive number P831. All the numbers in
9 between, in the order as you mentioned them, are admitted into evidence.
10 All under seal with the exception of P824 and P831.
11 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then, having dealt with this, is there any other
13 matter which we should deal with before the break?
14 Then we'll take a break. We will resume at quarter past 1.00.
15 I'm looking at the Prosecution, I think the time scheduled for the next
16 witness was one hour in-chief.
17 MR. GROOME: I actually thought it was less than that,
18 Your Honour, but I can check.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Less than that.
20 MR. GROOME: If you give me a second.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We were informed it was one hour, but if it's less
22 then at least more time for the cross-examination.
23 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry, Your Honour. You were correct. It is an
24 hour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So then I expect the Prosecution to finish
Page 7810
1 half of its examination-in-chief during this session, which will last
2 until a quarter to 2.00.
3 We resume at quarter past 1.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 12.54 p.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 --- On resuming at 1.18 p.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I put on the record that Mr. Mladic is in court
8 again.
9 Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness.
10 MS. BOLTON: We are, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
12 Meanwhile, I notice that Vukovar has been taken out, or has been
13 redacted from the statement. Zvornik, of course, was not part of the
14 indictment anymore but, still, Zvornik parts do appear.
15 Now, I take it, Ms. Bolton, that we'll not finish anyhow, today,
16 the examination-in-chief, that you would consider whether or not it still
17 needs to be part of the evidence.
18 MS. BOLTON: Yes, Your Honour. And I can deal with those issues,
19 I think, at the end of the witness's testimony.
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, if you consider to take Zvornik
22 out, then it might be good that the Defence would be aware of that
23 already, as soon as you've made up in your mind in that respect.
24 MS. BOLTON: May I ask, Your Honour, just before the witness is
25 sworn, may he be provided with a hard copy of his statement when he
Page 7811
1 testifies?
2 JUDGE ORIE: That usually doesn't meet any objections and neither
3 it does at this moment.
4 Good afternoon, Mr. Bell. Mr. Bell, before you give evidence,
5 the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.
6 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
7 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
8 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 WITNESS: MARTIN BELL
10 Examination by Ms. Bolton:
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I -- yes.
12 Please be seated.
13 Mr. Bell, you'll first be examined by Ms. Bolton. Ms. Bolton is
14 counsel for the Prosecution, and you will find her to your right.
15 Ms. Bolton, please proceed.
16 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 May I please have 65 ter 28663A, please.
18 Q. Mr. Bell, while we're waiting for that document to come up, may I
19 remind you, first, that it's important for you and I to pause between
20 question and answer so the translation can keep up.
21 Now your qualifications, sir, are set out in detail in your
22 amalgamated statement, but I'd just like to briefly review some of your
23 qualifications with you.
24 And firstly, sir, am I correct in understanding that you worked
25 for the British Broadcasting Corporation, or BBC, for approximately 35
Page 7812
1 years up until you became a member of the British parliament in 1997?
2 A. Yes, that is true.
3 Q. And for approximately 30 years of your career, I understand you
4 were a foreign affairs war correspondent?
5 A. Yes, that is true. I think my first war was in 1966 and I went
6 on doing them until the end of the Bosnian war.
7 Q. And if I could ask you to look at the document that's displayed
8 before you, on the English version, on page 1, you will see a date and a
9 signature. And I understand, sir, first of all, that this was an
10 amalgamated statement that was presented to you for your review in
11 anticipation of your testimony in the Karadzic trial.
12 A. Yes, that is true.
13 Q. And do you recognise the signature on the page before you?
14 A. The signature is mine.
15 MS. BOLTON: Could we please have page 2 in both languages.
16 Q. Sir, in terms of corrections, I note that at paragraph 2, there
17 are -- sorry, paragraph 3, there's an indication that in total over the
18 course of your career both as a foreign affairs war correspondent and
19 subsequently in your other work, that you had covered 15 war zones, and I
20 understand that that number is now 18?
21 A. Yes, that is correct.
22 Q. And I don't need to display the page, but I understand that the
23 name of the country Tajikistan is misspelled in paragraph 5 of this
24 document.
25 A. Perhaps I could help you, it's Tajikistan.
Page 7813
1 Q. Thank you. And am I correct, it was misspelled?
2 A. Yes, it was.
3 Q. And but for those corrections, does the statement fairly and
4 accurately consolidate the written evidence and testimony that you had
5 provided to the Office of the Prosecution prior to the 10th of March,
6 2010?
7 A. Yes, it does.
8 Q. And is the information contained in your statement truthful?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. And if asked about the same subjects today, would you provide
11 substantially the same responses?
12 A. Yes. For as long as my memory holds out.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MS. BOLTON: Your Honours, as there were some issues raised in
15 the Defence response to the 92 ter statement, I propose to deal with its
16 admissibility at a later juncture.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You would tender it at this moment but you would do
18 not urge us to decide right away.
19 MS. BOLTON: Correct.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That's understood.
21 Madam Registrar, the number would be.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document would receive number P832, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: P832 is marked for identification.
24 MS. BOLTON: May I read a brief --
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
Page 7814
1 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, Your Honour may I read a brief witness
2 summary.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. I take it that you have explained to
4 the witness the purpose of it.
5 MS. BOLTON: I believe he is familiar with the purpose of it,
6 Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
8 MS. BOLTON: Mr. Bell was a war correspondent with the BBC from
9 1966 to 1997. He reported on events in the former Yugoslavia from the
10 outbreak of hostilities in Croatia in 1991 through to the signing and
11 implementation of the Dayton Accords.
12 Mr. Bell was stationed in Sarajevo throughout most of his time in
13 Bosnia and filed numerous reports on the conditions in the city. Among
14 other things, he observed shelling and sniping in civilian populated
15 areas. His reports included reports on Scheduled Incidents G-10, G-18
16 and F-13. Of all the conflicts Mr. Bell has reported on, he states that
17 in Sarajevo "there was the least distinction between soldiers and
18 civilians when it came to targeting."
19 Mr. Bell himself was wounded in August 1992 by shrapnel from a
20 mortar while reporting near the Marsal Tito barracks in Bosnian-held
21 territory.
22 That concludes the summary, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you Ms. Bolton.
24 If you have further questions for the witness, you may proceed.
25 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
Page 7815
1 May I please have 65 ter 28666.
2 Q. While that document is being brought up, Mr. Bell, could you
3 confirm that during proofing with the Prosecution earlier this week, you
4 had the opportunity to review nine video-clips that had not been included
5 in your amalgamated statement?
6 A. Yes, that is so.
7 Q. And now displayed before you, you should see a chart titled
8 "Comments Chart." And if we could have page 3, please, of this document.
9 There is underneath the words "I certify the truth and accuracy of the
10 above information," there's a signature that appears. Whose signature is
11 that?
12 A. That is my signature.
13 Q. And does this chart accurately reflect the comments you made
14 about the video-clippings you were shown?
15 A. Yes, it does.
16 MS. BOLTON: May I ask that this be marked as the next
17 Prosecution Exhibit, Your Honour.
18 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28666 receives number P833, issues.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
22 Would you like to deal with the underlying video material
23 immediately, Ms. Bolton, or?
24 MS. BOLTON: I think it best to leave it until later in time,
25 Your Honour.
Page 7816
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed, now.
2 MS. BOLTON:
3 Q. Sir, could you tell us, please, what your approach was to
4 reporting during your time in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
5 A. My approach was to, as in all wars, to find out as diligently as
6 I could what was happening, to be fair and impartial and accurate in my
7 reports, and to get the reports to London and elsewhere in the world in a
8 fairly speedy time-frame.
9 Q. And in terms of the access that you enjoyed first to territory in
10 the Sarajevo area held by the government forces, could you describe how
11 your access was at the early stages of the conflict.
12 A. Perhaps, Ms. Bolton, I should point out that initially in the
13 early weeks of April 1992 we were based in Bosnian Serb territory in a
14 hotel in -- in Ilidza and we enjoyed good relations with our hosts.
15 We were bombed out of there in a -- by mortar rounds four days
16 after I left early in May, and then the team fled and I had to come back
17 across the airport runway in the middle of -- of June, and then we were
18 based, because the Holiday Inn was -- was partly destroyed, we were based
19 in the flat of a friend until we could move back into the Holiday Inn.
20 And I worked out of the Holiday Inn but crossing the lines to Serb-held
21 territory as often as I could, until I was wounded in August 1992.
22 Q. And during the time-period you've just described, did you have
23 any difficulty other than the dangers you've described in accessing
24 either Bosnian or Serb-held territory around Sarajevo?
25 A. We had a certain amount of difficulty at -- at roadblocks in the
Page 7817
1 early days of the war but we found both sides remarkably accessible.
2 There's nothing more difficult in war reporting than to cross an active
3 front line, but I did it a number of times because it was imperative to
4 talk to the Bosnian Serb leadership to find out what was happening there,
5 and indeed in the -- in the districts of Sarajevo that were held by
6 the -- by the Serbs.
7 Q. Did there come a point in time when your ability to access
8 Bosnian Serb held territory changed and if so when did that occur?
9 A. That occurred after the -- the vote the Bosnian Serbs held on the
10 Contact Group peace plan. This was August 1994. And from then on, to my
11 great regret, we were cut off from direct contact with the Bosnian Serbs.
12 Q. I would next like, sir, to turn to a topic discussed in your
13 amalgamated statement, that being the siege of Sarajevo.
14 I understand, sir, in looking at paragraph 43 of your amalgamated
15 statement, which is page 12 in e-court in both languages, that you had
16 occasion, on the 25th of April, 1992, to accompany Dr. Karadzic on a tour
17 of VRS front line positions in the Mount Trebevic area; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, that is correct. The -- Dr. Karadzic and the Bosnian Serbs
19 were most helpful to us, and I was even able to find a place in
20 Dr. Karadzic's car for my cameraman as he drove past the front lines,
21 greeting his soldiers.
22 Q. And could you tell us if there were other journalists also on
23 this tour.
24 A. Yes there were. It was -- I cannot remember exactly who they all
25 were. The news agents -- news agencies would certainly have been there,
Page 7818
1 some print journalists, and I expect other national broadcasters.
2 Q. I'm going to ask that a film clip, sir, be played for you. It is
3 65 ter 22562A. I'm going to ask that it be played first from the
4 beginning to the 1-minute mark and that it be paused at that juncture,
5 please.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton, the procedure with playing once or twice
7 has been put in place. Has the DVD been provided to the booth -- and do
8 the -- yes, to the interpreters so that they had an opportunity to listen
9 to it?
10 MS. BOLTON: The DVDs have been provided, Your Honour. I don't
11 know if they have had the opportunity to complete their review. I do
12 know with respect to this first video that there Bosnian Serb subtitles
13 for -- it's mostly in English and there's Bosnian Serb subtitles for all
14 but the last sentence, in essence, of what I intend to play.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then let's start playing it once and then see
16 how -- whether there's any need to play it again.
17 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MS. BOLTON:
20 Q. First of all, do you recognise the footage that we're looking at?
21 A. It was the same tour that I took to -- with Dr. Karadzic but
22 obviously shot from a different camera.
23 Q. And we have paused at the 1-minute mark and we're looking at a
24 weapon. And I'm wondering if you could tell us what the round device on
25 the left side of the weapon is?
Page 7819
1 A. Ms. Bolton what you're looking at is a telescopic sight.
2 Q. If we could please continue playing until the 53-second mark,
3 please. 1 minute, 53 seconds.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 MS. BOLTON:
6 Q. In that last segment, sir, starting at about 1 minute and 37
7 seconds, we saw a gentleman speaking into a -- some kind of a device.
8 Could you tell us what that device was?
9 A. I don't know the technical name for it, but it was clearly some
10 item of former JNA communications equipment, through which soldiers
11 talked to each other.
12 Q. And did you see similar equipment on any occasion at other VRS
13 positions during your three and a half years in Bosnia?
14 A. Yes, I did. But obviously only for the opening portion of that
15 three and a half years because everything changed when we were denied
16 access.
17 Q. And, sir, I don't know if you paid any attention to the
18 background noise when the gentleman was speaking on the phone. And if
19 you didn't, we can replay those last little bits. But do you recall what
20 was in the background while he was speaking on the communication device?
21 A. No, I don't. It was a front line position. That's all.
22 Q. Would we be able to replay from 1 minute, 37 seconds, please.
23 And I'll ask you, sir, if you could pay attention to the
24 background noise.
25 [Video-clip played]
Page 7820
1 MS. BOLTON: For the record, we've replayed from 1:37 to 1:48.
2 Q. Did you take attention to the background noise that time?
3 A. What I could hear was apparently the use of a call-sign and
4 either some cannon or machine-gun fire in the background.
5 Q. And do you have any recollection of where that machine-gun or can
6 cannon fire was originating?
7 A. Ms. Bolton, there's no way of knowing in a scene like that.
8 Q. In this clip, there is an individual who asks Dr. Karadzic:
9 "You could take the city tomorrow, couldn't you?"
10 Who is it that posed that question?
11 A. I posed that question to him.
12 Q. And during the time you spent in Bosnia, were you aware of any
13 military offensive that appeared to be an attempt by the Bosnian Serbs to
14 actually take the town of Sarajevo?
15 A. Obviously they were using heavy weapons which they had in
16 abundance. They were always short of -- of infantry. There was no --
17 there was no great movement in the front lines between the beginning and
18 the -- and the end of the war. The -- the principal attempts to move the
19 front lines, in my experience, were made by the army of the ABiH, towards
20 the end, when they were trying, both, to break in and to break out, and
21 I'm referring now to events in June 1995.
22 Q. At paragraph 60 of your amalgamated statement, which is page 17
23 in English and pages 17 and on to 18 in B/C/S, you express the opinion
24 that you thought the -- there were certain political or strategic
25 advantages to the siege of the city and that you thought the Serbs, by
Page 7821
1 tightening their grip on the city, economically and militarily, could
2 affect a peace favourable to them. And you indicate that you drew this
3 inference as a result of your many encounters with Dr. Karadzic,
4 Mr. Koljevic, Mr. Zametica, and then you state also on their quote
5 "obsessions with maps." What did you mean by "their obsession with
6 maps"?
7 A. I'm probably being a little bit unkind there, but whenever we
8 would meet the leadership in one of their conference rooms, and sometimes
9 when they were travelling about, there be would maps with them. And the
10 perception that they hoped in tightening the siege of Sarajevo to secure
11 a better deal for themselves in a final settlement, because there always
12 was going to be a final settlement, I picked up from my lengthy
13 conversations with Dr. Karadzic, Dr. Koljevic, and Zametica, and also
14 from my friends from UNPROFOR who were in -- for most of the time in
15 daily contact with the Bosnian Serbs.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton I'm looking at the clock. We're one
17 minute away from adjourning.
18 MS. BOLTON: That would be an appropriate time to stop, then,
19 Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Bolton [sic], first, for you, we'll
21 adjourn for the day and we'll continue tomorrow morning at 9.00. I would
22 like to -- yes, Ms. Bolton.
23 MS. BOLTON: I'm very sorry, Your Honour. I neglected to ask
24 that this be marked as an exhibit and I know I'll forget if I leave it to
25 tomorrow morning.
Page 7822
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps if we already provisionally assign a
2 number to it and then could the parties think it over, whether the way in
3 which we used it, apparently there was not much reliance on text spoken
4 but rather on -- apart from the words spoken by Mr. Karadzic and the
5 question [sic] asked by the witness. But we'll deal with that.
6 Madam Registrar the number provisionally assigned.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Video 22562A receives Exhibit P834, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And is marked for identification at this
9 moment.
10 Mr. Bell, I would like to instruct you that you should not speak
11 or communicate in whatever other way with whomever it is about your
12 testimony, whether testimony given already today or still to be given
13 tomorrow. We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning. You may follow
14 the usher.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to put on the record that the Chamber
17 was, just a couple of minutes before midday, was informed that
18 Mr. Mladic, who had arrived by then, in -- on the premises of this
19 Tribunal, had used the facility given to him to watch the proceedings on
20 a monitor.
21 We will adjourn for the day. Tomorrow, we'll start a bit earlier
22 than initially announced. That is, at 9.00, and we all try to do our
23 utmost best to finish not later than a quarter past 2.00. And if we
24 would need a few more minutes, then two Judges will consider whether to
25 sit under Rule 15 bis.
Page 7823
1 We adjourn and will resume tomorrow, Friday, the 1st of February,
2 at 9.00, in this same courtroom.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that most likely we're sitting
5 in Courtroom I. Come early and find the right courtroom, I would say.
6 We stand adjourned.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Friday, the 1st day of
9 February, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.
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