1 Tuesday, 12 February 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would
6 you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. There are no
10 preliminaries, therefore could the witness be escorted into the
12 Meanwhile, Mr. Lukic, in view of the fact that the next witness
13 may be waiting, could you tell us, would you need the whole of the day or
14 would you --
15 MR. LUKIC: I think I need the whole day.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You need the whole of the day which means that the
17 next witness doesn't have to remain standby here. That may be of
18 interest for you to know, Mr. Groome.
19 MR. GROOME: Thank you for that, Your Honour. We have asked the
20 witness to be on standby at the hotel this afternoon should things
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Even that seems to not be necessary at this
23 moment if Mr. Lukic needs -- even if he would not need the whole of the
24 day, but the greatest part of it, and with re-examination and there's
25 hardly any chance that the next witness would start his testimony today.
1 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour. We'll take appropriate
2 measures now.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Meanwhile there is a Defence request for
4 extended response time on the Prosecution's 12th Rule 92 bis motion.
5 That motion was filed on the 28th of January. On the 8th of February,
6 the Defence requested an additional 30 days to respond, and the Chamber
7 grants this request for an extension of time.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 WITNESS: EKREM SULJEVIC [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning -- good morning, Mr. Suljevic.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Suljevic, I'd like to remind
14 you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the
15 beginning of your testimony that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth
16 and nothing but the truth.
17 Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Suljevic.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. We will continue where we left off yesterday.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 65 ter 10166
23 to start with.
24 Q. You know what the document is about, because we discussed it
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's go to page 3 to remind
3 ourselves of the schematic. We discussed that yesterday, but now I would
4 like to go to page 2 in B/C/S and in English. We're on page 3 now, but I
5 would kindly ask for page 2 to be displayed.
6 Q. The document describes the trajectory of the said projectile, and
7 in the third line from the top it says the missile ricochetted off the
8 gravel surface of the roof, flew over the corner above Studio C, struck
9 and ricochetted off the wall between the first and the second floor of
10 the building where foreign reporters' offices are located, and fell next
11 to a wall of Studio C. The missile exploded on the floor of the passage.
12 This corresponds to what we saw in the schematic, the
13 description, that is; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to call up
16 65 ter number 14206. I'm interested in page 3 in both -- both versions.
17 Q. Do you remember this is the place where the projectile struck
18 Studio C, the place of impact; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now we need page 6. It seems
21 that in e-court there's a mismatch in the page number. Can I go back one
23 Q. There is an arrow which marks the place where the projectile
24 struck before it ricochetted toward Studio C; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to call up
2 1D768. It is another photo. I need page 3.
3 Q. And now I will kindly ask you to look at the photo, and can you
4 see where the ricochet place is behind the man in front of the photo?
5 A. I can't see that. Also -- also I do suppose that it would be
6 somewhere over there.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in, please. In the place
8 behind the men closest to the camera. The place between the men's legs,
10 Q. There behind him, exactly behind him, do you see the place marked
11 as the place from which the shell ricochetted? Do you remember that
13 A. Yes, I remember the place, but I'm afraid I can't see the exact
14 spot. It is covered by that individual. Perhaps my sight is not that
16 Q. Well, then, let's go back to the original the way we saw the
17 first time it was displayed on the screen. Please mark the Energoinvest
18 Dalekovod factory in this photo?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, for the Chamber to be able to follow at
20 all, in which direction is the photograph taken, and are we facing north,
21 south, east, west? Or you can also ask the witness about the sketch and
22 see how this relates to the sketch.
23 MR. LUKIC: Usually I know exactly in which direction, but for
24 this photo I don't.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then if you could relate it to the sketch we've seen
1 earlier about the drawing. Then to know which roof we are looking at in
2 which direction and --
3 MR. LUKIC: Okay. I will clarify that with the witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
6 Q. Sir, Mr. Suljevic, the roof, the passage, what does that belong
8 A. I'm still receiving interpretation. Could you please hold on.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Do you still not receive interpretation in your own
10 language, Mr. Suljevic?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am receiving interpretation, but
12 the only thing I heard was what it belongs to, but I don't know what "it"
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I think the witness is now receiving
15 interpretation again. Yes. He is nodding yes, so it seems okay. Please
16 repeat your question.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Would you kindly tell us about this roof, the place where all
19 these individuals are? What does that belong to?
20 A. It's part of the Radio Television building.
21 Q. Could you please mark the Energoinvest Dalekovod factory in this
22 photo and can you also mark the direction north for us if you can.
23 A. First of all, I would like to say the schematic that we saw a
24 while ago was drafted by the CSB, not me. Just for the sake of clarity.
25 Here you can see the power transmission lines, Energoinvest tested them.
1 The factory itself is a bit to the right as far as I can remember.
2 Q. Could you please mark the Energoinvest building with a letter E,
3 and can you please try and tell us where the direction north is in this
5 A. I believe this is north, because the building faces east-west.
6 Q. To avoid any confusion because E is Energoinvest and also the
7 notation for east, could you please put the letters ENE.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Let's assume that the explosion happened or, rather, that the
10 ricochet happened exactly behind the person who is closest to the camera.
11 Can you please draw the descent line of the projectile in the direction
12 of Studio C.
13 A. I can do it only approximately. [Marks]. I believe that this
14 would be the trajectory of that projectile.
15 Q. How are we going to mark that? Let's mark it with a letter C,
16 showing that its trajectory is towards Studio C. And also can you draw a
17 line towards Safeta Hadzica 52. Can you get your bearings in the photo
18 and try to do that for us. Can you draw a line towards the Svrakino
20 A. It would go from the left across this part of the building.
21 Q. Yes. Could you please put letters SH next to that line standing
22 for Safeta Hadzica.
23 A. [Marks]
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can this be preserved? If you have
25 questions, please --
1 JUDGE ORIE: If we wait for a second first. First of all, I lost
2 half of my microphone. But apart from that -- could we first look at the
3 map and see where exactly we are. Could you use some of the -- yes, we
4 can save this first, perhaps. Madam Registrar. Mr. Weber.
5 MR. WEBER: Sorry, Your Honours. The Prosecution would just
6 inquire when this photo was taken. The probative value of it may be
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first -- before we change anything, let's
9 first save this picture. Madam Registrar, the photograph marked by the
11 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number D203, Your Honours. Apologies,
12 D204, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: D204. Any objection against it being admitted,
14 Mr. Weber, although you would like to know when it was taken.
15 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour. No objection.
16 JUDGE ORIE: No objection. D204 is admitted. Now, the question
17 was when the photograph was taken. Do you know, Mr. --
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I do, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, does the witness know? If not, of course
20 you can't give evidence, but you can say something about the source of
21 your material you're using.
22 MR. LUKIC: This photo was taken during the official tour by the
23 Trial Chamber in a case of General Milosevic.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. WEBER: Yes, I had a look at the date of that. I was just
1 hoping to put the date of it on the record if Mr. Lukic knew.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I ...
3 MR. LUKIC: And I have the number. It's pretty long number,
4 taken by -- from the site of the Tribunal.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. Give -- if the number is long, write
6 it down on a piece of paper and give it to Mr. Weber so that he can check
7 it on the --
8 Second, where are we on the Sarajevo map so that we have a better
9 impression? You can use Mr. --
10 MR. LUKIC: We have one photo. If maybe we can use it --
11 JUDGE ORIE: I was talking about a map first because maps have
12 the advantage that you know where you are. We have an mp3. We have a
13 detailed map of Sarajevo divided into 16. It's hard copy page 58. Could
14 you tell us where we should go in town.
15 MR. LUKIC: I don't have that map with me.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please briefly explain and then we get the right
17 one. Where are we? Are we in Dobrinja? Are we anywhere between the
18 town and Dobrinja? Are we near Alipasino Polje? Where approximately are
19 we? Where's the Energo --
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is the building of Television
21 Sarajevo on the main street leading from SUP to Bascarsija. It is in
22 Novo Sarajevo part.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see. Is it closer to town than Alipasino
24 Polje or is it --
25 MR. LUKIC: Probably witness can guide us more precisely.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell us the building we're looking
2 at at this moment, that is the television building, Television Sarajevo,
3 where do we find it approximately on the map? Could you guide us? Is it
4 west of the city centre, I take it?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is closest to Alipasino Polje.
6 This is the beginning of Alipasino Polje or thereabouts.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have -- sheet 10 is hard copy page 68 of
8 P3, but it's a different page in e-court. I'm aware of that. Let's see.
9 Mr. Weber, could you tell us where sheet 10 is in the e-court
11 MR. WEBER: E-court page 75.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have P3, page 75. Perhaps we use the whole
13 of the screen for the map.
14 Witness, do we find the television building on this part of the
15 map? If not, please tell us whether we have to go east, west, north, or
16 south. If you'd like to have it enlarged, we'll enlarge it.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It does not have to be enlarged,
18 but just bear with me for a moment. Yes. This is the part of the map
19 depicting the Radio Television building.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I saw that you had -- you started marking already.
21 We see that the river Miljacka is crossing the street. That's where you
22 made a marking. Now, is the television building, is that on the southern
23 part? Is that south of the road or is it north of the road?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will mark the Radio Television
25 building now.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you would not mind, then I notice that's the
2 Radio Television building. That is a -- you've marked that now. That
3 is --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Both in the north and in the east, the river
6 Miljacka flows along at that building. Now we know where we are.
7 The photograph with the Energoinvest building is taken in which
8 building? Is that taken east or is that taken in a westerly direction?
9 Towards the east or towards the west?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can draw an arrow to show you
11 what I think about the direction from which the photo was taken. I
12 believe that this is the direction from which the photo was taken, but I
13 suppose it was taken from the building.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I invite you to erase again the arrow
15 you've made at this moment. I noticed yesterday that you know how to do
16 it. Yes. Thank you. And could you please mark from that building with
17 an arrow in which direction the photographer was taking its picture, or
18 another way is to tell us where the Energo building is, if it is on this
19 part of the map.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I wasn't there when the photo
21 was taken. However, from memory about the position of the building and
22 the adjacent building, I believe that I can give you some sort of an
24 JUDGE ORIE: If you go -- if you go from this television building
25 to the Energoinvest building, you are travelling away from the city. Is
1 that ...
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. Now I marked
3 the place where the power transmission lines are, the ones that can be
4 seen in the photograph.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That may be very helpful, because we have --
6 on our map we have indicated towers and that may be electricity towers.
7 Now we know approximately where we are, Mr. Lukic, we can perhaps
8 go back to the photograph after we have stored this marked map. Shall we
9 make a D exhibit? That's the easiest. Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Page 75 of the Exhibit P3 as marked by the
11 witness receives number D205, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
13 MR. LUKIC: Can I continue, Your Honour?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
16 Q. [Interpretation] I will now misuse the Presiding Judge's efforts,
17 so I will ask you to use this same map of the city which is properly
18 shown with the north, south, east, and west, and I will ask you to draw
19 on it the building of the Radio Television, if you can, and also the
20 address Safeta Hadzica 52, if you can.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness has marked the building.
22 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the building of the radio
24 and television.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Can you mark Svrakino Selo as well?
2 A. Svrakino Selo, yes, but not the street and the house number.
3 [Marks]. It's thereabouts in this area.
4 Q. All right. Thank you. So that's to the south from the
5 television building; right?
6 A. Yes, approximately.
7 JUDGE ORIE: The advantage of this map, Mr. Lukic, is that, for
8 example, Safeta Hadzica is just written down nicely on the map, and the
9 witness has marked it approximately at that street. Please proceed.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would propose this
11 marked sketch with markings made by Mr. Suljevic to be admitted into
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document receives number D206, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we now please show
17 another sketch, 1D745.
18 Q. Mr. Suljevic, would this sketch actually correspond to what we
19 saw, how there was this ricocheting from the roof. This place is marked
20 with R2. Then impact in the building and the explosion against the wall
21 of Studio C?
22 A. Well, the trajectory more or less corresponds -- or, rather, the
23 direction, but as for the trajectory itself, I'm not sure how the
24 projectile was flying, so I cannot confirm whether this was the precise
25 trajectory that it flew along. We can only speculate about that, about
1 the trajectory.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] While we are looking at this, I will
3 just read once again what 10166 says. That's a Prosecution exhibit.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, let's try to be very precise. You say
5 the ricochet -- the first one was on the roof. Is that R1?
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: R1 is the ricochet on the roof. R2 apparently is
8 where --
9 MR. LUKIC: Is another ricochet from the building --
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- at least where the projectile --
11 MR. LUKIC: In the wall, yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- was stopped by a wall and went in the other
14 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Now, we do not know at this moment how the cut is
16 taken as far as the buildings is concerned, neither do we know what the
17 dotted line means, and we have no measurements, that is, whether the
18 altitude of the -- the size of the building, length, or the -- how high
19 the building was, it's not anywhere presented. I don't know who made
21 MR. LUKIC: We'll have Mr. Berko Zecevic testify here, and he
22 testified before.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And this --
24 MR. LUKIC: He measured the distance, and I will give it to the
25 witness and read one portion from the document we have already read.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's all fine, because we do not see any of
2 it on this picture, but please then proceed and keep in the back of your
3 mind what I'd like to know looking at this picture.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like also to ask a question. When this
6 projectile ricochetted on R1, where did it come from? Are we able to
7 know the direction from where it came? Further to the right?
8 MR. LUKIC: I can ask the witness if he knows --
9 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has explained, I think that only with a
10 very acute angle of descent you can have a ricochet, so I even whether --
11 wonder how it ricochetted would fit into that, but it must therefore
12 logically come from the right although it's not indicated.
13 MR. LUKIC: I can read what we have in the document.
14 JUDGE ORIE: In what document, this document?
15 MR. LUKIC: It's 10166.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's -- let's proceed, but logically - and,
17 Witness, if you would disagree, please tell me - but logically in view of
18 the arrows, it could only have come from the right, and what direction
19 that is, we do not know because we do not know how the cut through the
20 building was made. Please proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. So we already read this a little while ago. On page 2 of 10166
23 reads as follows:
24 The projectile bounced off or ricochetted against the gravel
25 surface of the roof, flew above the corner of Studio C, hit and bounced
1 off from the wall between the first and the second floors of the building
2 where offices of foreign reporters were located, and fell directly by the
3 wall of Studio C. The projectile was activated on the floor of the
5 Would you agree with me that the sketch represents exactly what
6 the document says, what I have just read out to you?
7 A. Yes, only I said that the red line is probably approximate and we
8 can accept it as such, because 1 would be the place where the projectile
9 hit the gravel roof, and what is missing is the part of the red line
10 showing where the projectile came from. It probably or, rather, must
11 have come from the right side. It hit at R1, then hit and bounced off
12 the wall from R2 and hit next to the fence. Now, whether it rolled on
13 the ground or hit the wall of Studio C, these are the details that we can
14 only guess.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you would also agree with me, and the
16 witness would also, that, for example, indications as it hit between this
17 and that floor without any floors on the sketch, we do not know whether
18 it was at the fifth floor or at the tenth or depending on how many floors
19 there were in these buildings, but the sketch does not represent all of
21 MR. LUKIC: No, it doesn't, Your Honour, but --
22 JUDGE ORIE: But let's proceed meanwhile.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
24 [Interpretation] Let us now return then briefly to 14206
25 [Realtime transcript read in error "12406"]. I think that we were
1 looking at page 5.
2 Q. Can you tell us how many floors the TV building has? We see once
3 again the place marked with an arrow which is represented as the location
4 of the second ricochet, represented by R2 in the other sketch.
5 A. The building of the RTV has a number of levels, so this part of
6 the roof with gravel, I'm not sure whether it's the third or the fourth
7 floor, and the place where the projectile hit is the second higher part
8 of the building which has perhaps eight or nine floors. I don't know
9 exactly, but it's much taller. So the building is constructed in such a
10 way that it has varying levels, but how many floors exactly it has I
11 wouldn't know.
12 Q. It reads here that it hit between the first and the second floors
13 of the building.
14 A. Then it's possible that the flat part which is lower -- the place
15 of the first ricochet was three or four floors. I don't know exactly,
16 but it's much lower than the central part of the building.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That's all not reflected on the sketch difference of
18 sizes of the building, Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: I think it would be possible if the trajectory, that
20 this line of that shows that the projectile is 15 metres. It was said
21 that it should be 15 metres.
22 JUDGE ORIE: What should be 15 metres exactly?
23 MR. LUKIC: From R1 to R2.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, whether it should be or not, of course,
25 the Chamber is primarily interested in what it was, but we have at this
1 moment not seen on the photograph yet the exact place where the
2 projectile ricochetted, and all the measurements are not on the sketch
3 you've given us. Perhaps on the first sketch I do remember that there
4 are far more details as far as measurements are concerned, but --
5 MR. LUKIC: If you want, we can go back to that 10166, page 3.
6 JUDGE ORIE: If we could look at it very briefly, and then I'll
7 let you further go, but please keep in mind that in order to get a proper
8 understanding of the situation, that -- yes.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Lukic, if I may interrupt. When you
10 asked for us to look at this sketch which is 14206, you asked for 14206,
11 and the transcript at page 15, line 1, has it as 12406. I just wanted to
12 make sure that we've got the right number before it disappears.
13 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, right, Your Honour. It's 14206.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may tell you how I see it.
17 You can see the roof in one part and it says P2, so I suppose it's the
18 ground floor plus two floors of the flat section of the building.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Yes. This is how it is usually marked in our parts at least. Do
21 you also see in this sketch what is the distance between the place of the
22 first ricochet to the place of the second ricochet? Can you see that?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Well, never mind, then. We'll have to wait for Mr. Zecevic to
25 clarify that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 [Interpretation] Can we now please see 1D743.
4 Q. Let me just say that this is a document that you signed together
5 with Mr. Jamakovic, dated the 17th of July, 1995, and the document
6 discusses this incident.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This document has not been
8 translated, or at least we haven't found a translation. We have sent it
9 for translation, though, and I will just show by way of this document
10 that Mr. Suljevic dealt with this.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
12 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, yesterday the Prosecution continued to
13 look for any available translations of a copy of this document and we
14 were able to locate almost complete translation except for the last page
15 of the report and we did send that to Mr. Lukic yesterday. It's not a --
16 the currently uploaded version of the last page is fully legible. The
17 version that we had the translation for the last page was not fully
18 legible so that was what was incomplete.
19 MR. LUKIC: Can we have that on the e-court, then?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Is it uploaded in e-court by the Prosecution?
21 MR. WEBER: We did not. We provided it for Mr. Lukic.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Fine. That's the answer. Mr. Lukic, you have not
23 uploaded it into e-court.
24 MR. LUKIC: No, we didn't know that there was --
25 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that you either upload it in e-court
1 during the next break and that we then further look at it, or that's an
2 alternative possibility that you print out the pages you want to use in
3 the English translation so that we can follow it. Either of the two
4 would do, I think.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. We'll try to do so.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And then perhaps if you then put questions to the
7 witness so that we are --
8 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Q. You can see this document and do you remember that you were doing
12 this on the 28th of June? The first paragraph reads the request says
13 that on the 28th of June, 1995, around 0922 hours in the 6th Proleterske
14 Brigade Street number 4, on the RTV building in Novi Grad municipality, a
15 projectile fell and exploded, killing one person and injuring 30 and
16 causing considerable material damage.
17 So you did work on this incident; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I do have a courtesy copy of the
21 English translation if you'd like --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and I think Mr. Lukic read almost literally
23 from this third paragraph in the -- which describes the date and the
24 explosion. Thank you very much, Mr. Weber.
25 MR. WEBER: I'm sorry, it's just one copy that we were able to
1 print out.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have one document, and -- yes, please
3 proceed, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. Now we just need the last page of this
6 Q. [Interpretation] Up in the top of the page, three paragraphs from
7 the end, I'm not sure what it looks like in the English because I haven't
8 seen the English version, it says "Enclosure" and then two paragraphs
9 above that it reads:
10 On the basis of the materials submitted for the expert analysis
11 and examination, it has been established that this is a destructive air
12 bomb probably weighing 250 kilogrammes. The mass of the explosive charge
13 in the bombs of this type is 96 kilogrammes. It also says that the bomb
14 was most probably attached to rocket engines, and it says that the
15 fragments of those rocket engines have not been found, which you already
16 told us.
17 So an air bomb of 250 kilogrammes, together with the engines,
18 probably weighs around 300 kilogrammes, and with the parts that attach
19 the engines to the body of the bomb; correct?
20 A. Probably even more.
21 Q. Do you know that the velocity of these bombs is around 150 metres
22 in second or -- per second or 540 kilometres per hour; is that correct?
23 A. I did not engage in those analyses, so I can neither confirm nor
24 deny that.
25 Q. All right. Would you agree with me that this report is actually
1 a report about an impossible trajectory, that the bomb having such mass
2 with such velocity after ricocheting against the wall would not explode
3 there but would change the trajectory once again and all of that at a
4 distance of 15 metres. Having the knowledge of mechanics as you do,
5 would you be able to confirm this report or would you say that it's
6 rather impossible?
7 A. You mean the report that I made? Is that what you mean?
8 Q. What I read to you just a while ago, that this was actually the
9 trajectory of the bomb.
10 A. I wouldn't want to speculate, but I suppose that approximately
11 that was most probably the trajectory of the bomb. What we don't know is
12 whether the bomb was set to explode immediately or was there supposed to
13 be a later explosion, whether it was a timed bomb. So this is something
14 that we don't know and that we cannot determine in any way.
15 Q. Did you determine what the fuse was like on this bomb? Did you
16 look into that?
17 A. We did not find any traces of the fuse, at least not any traces
18 that would indicate to us what was the fuse that made this air bomb
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, while this was within 30 seconds and the
21 break is soon so that you have a further opportunity to consult.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Sir, on the bombs which you showed to us in images which we
24 looked at yesterday, the Prosecution presented you that, I mean those
25 that were found in Lukavica, did you determine what types of fuses were
1 used in those bombs?
2 A. If you mean the bombs that were found in Ilijas --
3 Q. Then it was my mistake. I suppose in Ilijas.
4 A. Yes. You said Lukavica, but it was in Ilijas. I did not analyse
5 those bombs, but one electronic scheme was brought to the department, the
6 team which was in charge of that brought the mechanical and electronic
7 wiring that was part of this bomb.
8 Q. Do you remember what the fuse was? What was brought?
9 A. Well, I'm telling you that this was the mechanic and electronic
10 wiring which included the clock mechanism and there were other elements,
11 too, but I did not really analyse it in detail.
12 Q. So you wouldn't agree with me that this explosion was actually
13 set there?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Now I would move to Safeta Hadzica, and we will need in e-court
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document is under seal, Your Honours.
18 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, before we get too afield on a different
19 incident, I was just wondering if counsel plans on tendering 65 ter 10166
20 and 1D743, which we've now had multiple reference from the witness with
21 during the course of his testimony. I appreciate that with respect to
22 1D743 that we need a completed translation. Maybe if that could be
23 marked for identification.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: Whatever we've used we plan to tender, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Shall we do it right away and then move after the
2 break to the next subject.
3 If you give the 65 -- if you give the numbers, Mr. Lukic, then
4 I'll invite Madam Registrar to assign numbers.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10166 receives number D207,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and just for my information, that was, Mr. --
8 MR. WEBER: That was the sketch of the RTV building. That was --
9 JUDGE ORIE: The sketch of the RTV building.
10 MR. WEBER: And it has an attached legend that Mr. Lukic also
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. No objections. I take it D207 is
14 Next one, Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Next one was 1D743, Your Honours, and this
16 receives number D208, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And for my information, that was --
18 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, that was the report authored by the
19 witness in relation to the shelling of the RTV building on the
20 28th of June. If we could have that marked for identification pending
21 the completion of the translation.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's the report. Could I draw your
23 attention to the following. I think as it is uploaded now in the
24 original, first of all, the last page is quite well legible, so therefore
25 from that version also the last page could be translated. But there are
1 other matters attached which do not appear in the one you have uploaded
2 in the original. I see in the translation at least one additional page
3 photocopy of topographic map, et cetera, et cetera, and then it looks as
4 if reference is made to all kind of photographs or the object marked
5 number 2, for example, is described, the object marked number 3, so
6 apparently there must be more in that document.
7 Could the parties either agree that we don't need it, but for us
8 to read it, we'd like to know what it refers to. So completing and the
9 document and the translation, please.
10 MR. WEBER: Of course, Your Honour. And the Prosecution also
11 forgot that the Defence did use --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first for this moment, Madam Registrar, the
13 document which is -- no, there's nothing on the screen anymore. The
14 document which is ...
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: 1D743.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, 1D00743 would reserve -- would receive number?
17 THE REGISTRAR: D208, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: D208 and is marked for identification. And then the
19 next one, Mr. -- and to be completed and to be fully translated.
20 MR. WEBER: Then, Your Honour, the Defence also used the photo
21 file related to the --
22 MR. LUKIC: 14206. Judge Moloto warned us about the wrong
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar, and that would receive number?
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 14206 receives number D209,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: D209 is admitted into evidence. I still have 1D745
3 on my list which is --
4 MR. LUKIC: That's the that sketch we created but -- R1 and R2.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, with the red suggested trajectory.
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
7 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the -- we would have an objection to
8 this being admitted for its substantive value. Much like last week, I
9 believe a similar sketch was shown for demonstrative purposes, pending
10 any foundation as to the accuracy of it and addressing the concerns
11 raised by the Chamber, we'd have no objection to it being marked for
13 JUDGE ORIE: Did I understand you well that it will be further
14 discussed with a witness Mr. Zecevic?
15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, of course.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then that one will be marked for identification
17 under what number, Madam Registrar?
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D745 will be MFI'd as number D210,
19 Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: D210 is marked for identification. We take a break.
21 Could the witness fault usher. Apologies, Mr. Suljevic, for bothering
22 you with all this administrative matters, but unfortunately, it is
23 necessary. You may follow the usher.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at five minutes to 11.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Groome.
6 MR. GROOME: While the witness is being brought in, can I bring
7 something to the Chamber's attention. Last week the Prosecution filed a
8 draft notice of the remaining witnesses in its case. The Prosecution has
9 not included in that list witnesses that the Prosecution no longer
10 believes it's necessary to adduce their evidence in reliance on the
11 Chamber's adjudicated facts decisions. Over the course of the March
12 adjournment, the Prosecution will be formally filing a list of those
13 witnesses and the adjudicated facts upon which we rely. The reason I
14 raise it now is that Mr. Lukic and the Chamber have made reference to
15 Mr. Berko Zecevic and that questions may be put to him. At present it is
16 not our intention to call him, but to rely on adjudicated facts. That
17 could change over the course of the spring, but at present that's our
18 intention. So I wouldn't want Mr. Lukic to falsely rely on a witness
19 that may not be called and, you know, not put questions to this witness
20 that -- with that intention. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. If it is the intention of the Defence
22 through Mr. Berko Zecevic to challenge those adjudicated facts covered by
23 his statement, then of course it would be good to know that as early as
25 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. Thank you to my learned friend.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then meanwhile, I also use the time for a
3 decision on Defence request for an extended respond time in relation to
4 Rule 92 ter motion for Witness RM174. That motion was filed on the
5 25th of January, and on the 30th of January, the Prosecution was
6 requested to refile it. The Defence filed a motion on the
7 8th of February requesting an extension of 14 days to respond starting
8 from the date of the Prosecution's refiling of the motion.
9 Mr. Groome, do we know already when you expect to refile the
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I can inform the Chamber at the end
12 of this session?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll wait with that until the end of
14 this session.
15 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Suljevic, I would like us to focus on the
18 developments at Safeta Hadzica 52 and some adjacent numbers, 102, 105,
19 110. We find this in your statement on page 9, paragraph 53, where
20 that's in the English version.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now we will need P495. The
22 document has been removed from the screen.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Again just for the record, document is under
24 seal, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. This is the case in question. Reports were drafted by the
3 Sarajevo CSB, as well as the KDZ department, i.e., your department. We
4 have a document that you drafted on the same case. Do you remember that
5 particular incident?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. You were the expert who analysed the traces after the explosion?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Let us try and get our bearings first.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In e-court we need 18833, which is a
11 Prosecutor's exhibit.
12 Q. In this photo please try and get your bearings. Somewhere in the
13 middle is the Bosnian and Herzegovinian Radio and Television building.
14 Could you please mark it. Do you recognise that building, first of all?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Can you please mark the place where the projectile ricochetted?
17 Can you recognise the place on the roof?
18 A. Yes. I can do it more or less accurately. It would be somewhere
19 around here.
20 Q. Yes. We agree on that. And can you now mark the building at
21 Safeta Hadzica Street 52. Can you locate that building in this photo.
22 A. [Marks]. I believe that it is one of these buildings. I don't
23 know exactly which one.
24 Q. It's on the right-hand side. That's number 52. And do you know
25 where number 102 is?
1 A. No, I don't.
2 Q. Very well.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could we invite the witness to write TV
4 next to the small marking and 52 next to the big circular marking.
5 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Would you kindly put letters TV next to the
7 circle indicating the television building.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. And can you put numbers 52 next to the other circle. Thank you.
10 A. [Marks]
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted as the
12 next Defence exhibit?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 18833 receives number D211,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now we need P495, under seal,
18 once again. We're interested in page 10 in this document in B/C/S. And
19 we need page 11 in English.
20 Q. Do you recognise your signature in the B/C/S version, sir?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. In your report, which is now in front of us, you did not mention
23 the type of bomb; right?
24 A. That's right. There is no reference to the type of bomb because
25 it was not established. There were no traces which would identify the
1 type of bomb.
2 Q. Yes, that's right. Thank you. Likewise, you did not know how
3 many engines it may have had, the GRAD-type engines; right?
4 A. We could only assume based on the traces which were supplied to
5 us, and we could not be precise in respect of the number of engines.
6 Q. How many chambers does one engine have? How many traces -- how
7 many chambers would you have been able to find if there was just one
9 A. A rocket engine equals one chamber.
10 Q. In other words, this was your calculation: If you find one
11 chamber, there's one engine.
12 A. If you find a rocket engine body, that equals one rocket --
13 Q. I'm talking about chambers. How many chambers does one engine
15 A. I don't know. I believe it was one chamber only, because it is
16 all encompassed within one rocket engine body with jets, and we
17 established the number of rockets based on the bodies of rocket engines
18 that were delivered for the expert analysis.
19 Q. And now we're still talking about the same incident and the same
20 day according to this report issued by the Sarajevo centre CSB. Several
21 dozens of artillery projectiles fell.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D697. I
23 believe that it already has a number, but if not, it is 1D697.
24 The same photo may be found on page 5 of P497. It is photo 5 on
25 page 5, but our photo here is of better quality.
1 Q. Can you please tell us, this is Safeta Hadzica 102, the place of
2 impact. Could you please mark the place where the projectile struck the
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Can you also draw the paw, the remains of shrapnel in the wall,
6 in other words.
7 A. This is where the density of the shrapnel is the highest. This
8 is what remains after the projectile exploded.
9 Q. Yesterday you explained to us that the shrapnel disperses in the
10 direction from which the shell came.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Could we conclude based on the photo that the mortar shell,
13 therefore, came from the bottom of the building?
14 A. I'm not sure that this was a mortar shell. However, the
15 projectile which struck the wall most probably fell under an angle which
16 was below the horizontal level.
17 Q. Could you please tell us that in layman terms. Did the
18 projectile come from above or from below?
19 A. The projectile -- I don't know what its trajectory was. We
20 cannot say that it came from above or from below. When it hit the
21 surface, the projectile was below the horizontal level, i.e., the
22 position of the projectile was below the horizontal level. We cannot say
23 where it was fired from, whether it was from above the place of impact or
24 below it.
25 Q. When you say "below the horizontal level," are you saying that
1 the tail of that projectile was lower than its front part?
2 A. Yes, at the moment of impact.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see 1D750 in
6 JUDGE ORIE: Should we have this one marked first --
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Thank you, yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- admit it having -- Madam Registrar, the
9 photograph marked by the witness.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Photograph 1D697 as marked by the witness
11 receives number D212, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: D212 is admitted into evidence, and this is the same
13 photograph which was marked by the witness earlier and was admitted as
15 MR. LUKIC: Different witness, yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Different witness, yes. Please proceed.
17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 [Interpretation] Now we need 1D750. While we are waiting for
19 this photograph to show up on the screen, we can also find the same one
20 in P497, the first photograph on the first page, but this one is of a
21 better quality, and it's easier to discern what we need.
22 Q. This is the place marked as the place where the projectile fell
23 into the yard of Safeta Hadzica 102. To get our bearings, the red roof
24 is the roof of the police station in Prvomajska Street number 20. Is
25 that correct?
1 A. I don't know. I couldn't remember the roof the police station,
2 but I do not deny it.
3 Q. I'm just saying if you know, fine. If you don't, we'll establish
4 that in some other way.
5 Do you know whether there is a police station today in Prvomajska
6 number 20?
7 A. There's the police station in Prvomajska, probably number 20, but
8 I do not know the number.
9 Q. So to this day; correct?
10 A. Yes. Now it's the police administration.
11 Q. Police administration. All right. Could you please mark the
12 place of the impact of the projectile on this photograph. Can one see it
13 at all?
14 A. Not with certainty. You can see how the ground is not flat, but
15 whether someone was digging there or if it was caused by the projectile,
16 but probably if it was there and if it exploded, it could have been
17 there, probably.
18 Q. Well, I don't know that, but I'm asking you whether you can mark
19 the place of the projectile's impact on this photograph?
20 A. I was not on the site, but let me try and suppose where it could
22 Q. All right. Please do suppose.
23 A. [Marks]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it has been marked, but the witness said he
25 couldn't know for certain, but if it was anywhere, most likely it would
1 be there. Please proceed.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you. Would you agree with me that in this
4 photograph one cannot see that either the onions which have been planted
5 here were destroyed nor the sticks which are dug into the ground or the
6 wire fence which is visible in the lower part of the photograph?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
8 MR. WEBER: I'm sorry, I've been letting this go, but I object to
9 relevance at this time. And we have no idea even if this photo is at or
10 near the time that the incident occurred and now we're going into sticks
11 in the ground and whether or not they were destroyed or not, things of
12 that nature.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the basis for your question is --
14 MR. LUKIC: We have this photograph offered by the Prosecution in
15 their admitted Exhibit P497 at page 1, photo 1.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. LUKIC: We are just offering better photo because that one
18 was murky and nothing could be seen. On this photo we want to test with
19 this witness --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber -- but I don't think the problem is the
21 photo. The problem is that the witness says he has difficulties in
22 establishing whether or not this is an impact of a shell, and you say the
23 onions are not damaged. I do not know whether there are any onions also
24 on the place where the witness marked, because you could say that there's
25 no onion left, but we do not know whether there were ever any onions
1 there, but the onions at a distance of 2 to 3 metres seem not to have
2 undergone major -- it's all rather speculative. But come to your point
3 as quickly as possible but with such a level of certainty that it assists
4 the Chamber.
5 Yes. And if it is the same photograph of better quality, could
6 the parties - I'm looking both left and right - tell us when it was
7 taken? Was it immediately after the --
8 MR. LUKIC: This is the same photograph, Your Honours, only
9 brought --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I remember --
11 MR. LUKIC: -- brought to the Tribunal but by one of the
12 Prosecutor's witnesses later on.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I just ask you to help us to -- we have no
14 clear recollection at this moment when the photograph was taken, but I
15 think it was a photograph attached to an incident report upon
16 investigation almost immediately after the event. That is what my
17 recollection tells me.
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, your recollection is right.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. And you said it was part of P --
20 MR. LUKIC: 497.
21 JUDGE ORIE: P497. Please proceed. Come to your point as
22 quickly as possible.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Did you examine the photo file while you were drawing up your own
25 report and opinion?
1 A. No. While drawing up our report, we had no occasion to see this
2 photograph. I did see this photograph on the last occasion when I
3 testified before this Tribunal, and as for the explosion, one can see the
4 traces of shrapnel on the wall. I mean, these concrete blocks. You can
5 also see that the roof is damaged because the shadows of the rafters can
6 be seen on the wall, and there is a lack of the corrugated surface which
7 covered the roof. So these are the elements that indicate that there was
8 an explosion.
9 Q. Quite the opposite. We'll try to prove that by the following
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So could we please see 1D751 in
12 e-court now.
13 [In English} Please, yes. Can we -- thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Photograph marked by the witness,
15 Madam Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D750 as marked by the witness receives
17 number D213, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you for the
20 warning, and thank you to Madam Registrar. Now we need photograph 1D751.
21 It is a photograph included in P497 on page 3, photograph number 3. Once
22 again, this one is of a better quality.
23 Q. We see here a car. Would you agree with me that the car is
24 parked next to the same building and the same garden we saw on the
25 previous photograph, which is 1D750?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's zoom in and look at 1D752.
3 This photograph is once again included in P497, photograph 4 on page 4,
4 but the photograph that we are showing now is of a higher quality.
5 Q. Can you see anywhere in this photograph that there was an impact
6 of shrapnel, or would you agree with me that this is rather a bomb that
7 was planted, that the explosive which was under the hood of the car in
8 the engine is the one that actually exploded?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, is it your suggestion that this
10 photograph is the same as we find on page 3 or another page of --
11 MR. LUKIC: It's page 4.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- page --
13 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Please proceed.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't speculate, because I was
16 not there, so ...
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. But you worked with explosives. Is this a typical photograph
19 showing that the explosive was planted below the hood? You can see the
20 parts of the gears to the right from the windscreen and also below the
22 A. It's obvious that the explosion did occur in this area.
23 Q. You mean in an enclosed space below the hood?
24 A. Well, thereabouts. I cannot specify without doing a detailed
25 analysis and an on-site investigation. On the basis of a photograph,
1 there are few indications that would tell us all this. It's certain that
2 there was an explosion, but I wouldn't speculate what caused it.
3 Q. Is it correct that neither in the previous photograph nor on this
4 one can we see any traces of the car's hood?
5 A. On this one we cannot see it on the car. Whether it's somewhere
6 to the side of the car, I'm not sure. If we could have a look again at
7 the previous photograph so that we can try to confirm that.
8 Q. Yes.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please once again see 1D751,
11 Q. Can you notice anywhere on this car -- you can see the front left
12 side of the car, so can you see any traces of shrapnel there or on the
13 roof or anywhere else?
14 A. Well, there are some black dots which I notice, but I cannot
15 claim whether it's that or not just on the basis of this photograph.
16 Some black dots both on the roof and on the left side.
17 Q. Well, of course there was an explosion, but can you see that the
18 column next to the driver is twisted to the right?
19 A. Well, the entire chassis is obviously deformed because of the
20 explosion. That is obvious.
21 Q. The licence plate numbers of the car are mentioned here but not
22 photographed. Do you have any information as to why?
23 A. No.
24 Q. All right. Thank you.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] On the same day, the same incident,
1 but a different shell, so we need 1D754. Once again, we are offering a
2 better photograph, but it can be found within P497, page 7, photograph
3 number 7.
4 Q. This is the crater allegedly made by a projectile. It is noted
5 that it fell in the schoolyard of the Dzemaludin Musovic primary school.
6 We even think that the name of the school is not correct.
7 Dzemaludin Musovic was a well-known football player; correct? And the
8 name of the school should have been Dzemaludin Causevic. Are you
9 familiar with the information?
10 A. I suppose that Dzemaludin Causevic is the name of the school.
11 Q. You have heard of Dzemaludin Musovic, I suppose.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. We all have, all of us who used to live in that area at the time.
14 A. Yes, only we don't know whether there were others with the name
15 Dzemaludin Musovic even before him.
16 Q. All right. In this photograph can you see, and I will suggest to
17 you -- can you see any characteristic traces of a shell explosion or is
18 this an example of water washing away the ground below asphalt and then
19 the asphalt sinks? Or can you see any traces of an explosion in this
21 A. Well, once again I wouldn't speculate, because this is a
22 microphotograph, so one cannot see anything that is in the surrounding
23 area around the crater. One can see that a crater was formed, but what
24 caused it, once again I wouldn't speculate about this because I did not
25 visit the site and the photograph doesn't show the general area around
1 the crater which would allow me to see if there any additional traces and
2 the like. Whether the projectile exploded or if it remained unexploded
3 in the ground, we cannot say, and I wouldn't like to express any
5 Q. But we may conclude that on this photograph one does not see any
6 traces of an explosion.
7 A. We do not see the general area of the crater which would allow us
8 to claim that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: The witness says that he can't make such
10 determinations, and to say you do not see an explosion, of course you
11 never see an explosion itself. You see the traces of an explosion. The
12 witness said that he couldn't -- what we see is apparently what is a hole
13 in what seems to be the ground. The witness --
14 MR. LUKIC: I will move on.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 [Interpretation] The next document we need to see is 1D753. It's
18 a photograph which can also be found in P497. It's photograph number 9
19 on page 9 of that document.
20 Q. It says that this is a projectile. You will remember that it was
21 mentioned that it had some strange markings, and it says that it fell in
22 Safeta Hadzica Street number 70 and did not explode. Do you remember
23 this projectile?
24 A. No. As I said, I did not go to the site, but I remember a
25 similar projectile which -- the traces of which I did analyse and include
1 in a report, but as for this projectile, I did not receive it, nor was I
2 at the site at the moment when this photograph was taken. One can only
3 see on the projectile that it was fired, because on these rings we can
4 see the traces made by the -- made by the firing, and also we can see
5 that the part where the fuse twists it is damaged.
6 Q. All right. We'll come back to that. You can also see that the
7 head is damaged; correct?
8 A. Yes, I can see that the head of the shell is damaged.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now we need P495. The document
10 is under seal. This is an official report which was drafted on the
11 1st of June by the Sarajevo Security Services Centre. It says here that
12 the projectile -- and it is in both versions. In English it's line 9 on
13 the second page.
14 Q. The projectile which landed in the garden in front of the
15 north-west wall of the apartment building at Safeta Hadzica Street 70
16 resulted in a 200 by 80 by 35 centimetre crater, and it did not explode.
17 Later on we will also discuss the following sentence, which reads
18 as follows:
19 "The next projectile landed in the middle of Majdanska Street.
20 It ricochetted off the asphalt surface and hit the wall of
21 Dzemaludin Lujinovic's family house."
22 Does this look plausible for you? Is it plausible for this shell
23 to land, not to explode, and to create a crater of this size, 200 by 80
24 by 35 centimetres?
25 A. Again we should start from the assumption as to whether the
1 projectile hit a surface and then went on moving. 200 is possible. When
2 it landed it may have created a crater 200 centimetres wide. The depth
3 that is mentioned here is the deepest, but it is possible that that
5 Q. When it lands on soft soil, is it normal that the head of the
6 shell breaks?
7 A. I said that it didn't break. It was damaged. There was no fuse
8 on the shell. Let me just give you an example. There were cases when we
9 found unexploded shells which were fired without fuses. Either the fuse
10 was not screwed on properly or something else. It did happen. I don't
11 know what happened in this particular case, and the example that I gave
12 you does not apply to this particular case.
13 Q. This specific case - on B/C/S page 2, and in English it is also
14 page 2, paragraph 3 - it says that on the projectile there was some
15 markings with a swastika and also an eagle sign depicting a swastika
16 which was also found on the projectile. Do you remember that? I asked
17 you about that at the beginning, and now I am making a reference to a
18 specific case.
19 A. I said that I did not analyse this projectile, but I'm familiar
20 with these details that you've just mentioned.
21 Q. It was also identified as an 88-millimetre projectile. Did you
22 come across shells used by the Army of Republika Srpska of 88-millimetre?
23 A. In one report everything indicated that the projectile was
24 88-millimetre, and I found the reference to such shells in professional
25 literature, and based on the traces, I concluded that that was the
2 Q. You're talking about this one in this image?
3 A. Yes, an 88-millimetre projectile, German made. We did not have
4 any markings, so I cannot claim for a fact that it was indeed that, but
5 it was an 88-millimetre projectile in any case.
6 Q. Do you know if the VRS had barrels through which such projectiles
7 could be fired?
8 A. I don't know that, but this type of shell according to expert
9 statements which we consulted during our analysis can be fired from a
10 90-millimetre cannon, and the same tables, tables for this type of
11 projectile, can be used.
12 Q. 90-millimetre cannons are naval cannons; right? And there were
13 no such cannons around Sarajevo on VRS positions?
14 A. I don't know that. I can't testify to that.
15 Q. You told us that you consulted professional literature relative
16 to ammunition. Do you know that in the JNA there was a regulation on the
17 overhaul of ammunition every 15 to 20 years? So the ammunition that was
18 made before the Second World War or during the war would be overhauled or
19 destroyed. You know that?
20 A. Yes, I know that.
21 Q. In this photo that we have just seen, did you see traces of a
22 recent overhaul, i.e., that the ammunition was repainted?
23 A. No, I can't claim that based on any photo. In any case, a
24 projectile which is overhauled has to be marked for that. That has to be
25 specified on a projectile, and based on this photo I can't say anything
1 to that effect.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's just go back a little and look
3 at 1D755.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question in relation to the -- what
5 we see on the screen at this moment and tell me immediately if you can't
6 answer the question.
7 This -- the projectiles are described as 90-millimetre
8 armour-piercing explosive artillery projectiles. Could you tell us,
9 armour-piercing explosive artillery projectiles, are they usually
10 provided with a fuse which gives an explosion upon impact or a delayed
11 explosion, if you know?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are combined fuses with
13 instant impact and delayed impact. Fuses are adjusted, a certain part is
14 moved so as to make it explode instantly or with a delay. I don't know
15 what the case was with this projectile. In any case --
16 JUDGE ORIE: It's not that on armour-piercing explosive that you
17 usually would use a certain type of fuse?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All projectiles had fuses that
19 completed them. One fuse could not be used to complete all projectiles.
20 Some could be used for several different projectiles, and some could be
21 used exclusively for one projectile.
22 In this particular case, I don't know what type of fuse was used.
23 However, if I'm not mistaken, it was a projectile which was intended to
24 pierce armour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I was focusing on specifically, yes.
1 Would that be an indication of what type of fuse to be used with such a
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't answer this question with
4 any precision. The difference between anti-armour projectiles and other
5 projectiles is that the former hold less explosive and had a higher
6 piercing power. They were used, hence the name, to pierce armour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Q. Did you know that the Croatian forces had 90-millimetre cannons?
10 A. No. I don't know -- or, rather, I'm not aware of the complete
11 range of armament that the VRS had. I don't even know what the Army of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina had. I'm not aware of the full list.
13 Q. Very well.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us go back to 1D755. This is a
15 photo which can be found on page 10 of P497. It is photo number 10 on
16 page 10.
17 Q. Do you see the scratches on this projectile?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Does the body of the shell demonstrate that it never went through
20 a barrel?
21 A. I would not put it that way. It would take into account the
22 copper ring on the lower part. You can see that it did go through a
24 Q. At one point. However, if that shell had been fired through a
25 barrel on that occasion, would the traces have been different?
1 A. There don't have to be traces at all. Very little is left on the
2 body of the shell. The rotating ring is of a higher diameter than the
3 body of the shell, so that's the place where you would expect more traces
4 to be found.
5 Q. How would you account for the vertical lines that we see on the
6 casing of this projectile?
7 A. I would not speculate. It is not my intention to speculate at
8 all. I don't have an answer to that question.
9 Q. Very well. Would you agree with me that a fuse never breaks when
10 an artillery shell lands on the ground.
11 A. Again, I don't have a precise answer to that question. In my
12 opinion, it may break. It depends on the angle of descent, i.e., on the
13 angle of impact.
14 Q. Even if we're talking about the soil surface?
15 A. No. No. Unless there is a hard object or a concrete object in
16 the soil. When it comes to that projectile, I could not see a fuse on
17 that projectile, that's true.
18 Q. We're putting it to you that that shell was planted. Somebody
19 had kept it in a cellar and then it was planted in order to lay blame on
20 the Serb forces. Could you accept that?
21 A. No, I would never accept that proposition.
22 Q. But then how do you account for the shell in this place? Was it
23 ever fired from somewhere?
24 A. If -- if it was found in that place, my explanation would be that
25 it was fired like all the other projectiles. As we saw in the previous
1 report, a dozen of projectiles fell in the area over a short period of
3 Q. But there are no traces? There was a building which was targeted
4 from below; is that correct? And then this shell with the German
5 markings made before the Second World War, never overhauled, are all of
6 these shells for which you claim that they were fired?
7 A. I didn't say --
8 Q. We will move on. We have other examples.
9 A. I didn't say that the shell was never overhauled because I don't
10 know. I didn't say that the projectile was fired from below, because I
11 am not aware of its trajectory from the moment it went through the barrel
12 to the moment it hit the surface, so I don't agree with that. And these
13 are not my conclusions as you're putting it to me.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. It's time for our next
15 break. We'll continue after it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break. Could the witness first follow
17 the usher.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at quarter past 12.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.16 a.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at the last session the Chamber asked
1 us some questions with respect to RM174.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. GROOME: I can inform the Chamber that it take some weeks, if
4 not months, to redo the statement as the Chamber has requested us to do.
5 In the schedule, the draft schedule we submitted last week, we have him
6 down for calling him after the summer break. Given -- one of the
7 problems with this particular witness is that given the technical nature
8 of the statement, we're a little bit reluctant to simply have an
9 interpreter translate an English statement. We think it's probably best
10 to have him be working in his own language in the new statement so -- but
11 anyway, that's the schedule the Prosecution imagines. And we, of course,
12 as always, defer to the Chamber on setting the schedule for Defence
14 JUDGE ORIE: Your position as far as an extension of time is --
15 MR. GROOME: As always, Your Honour, we defer to the Chamber and
16 we agree that whatever is necessary to ensure the fair trial rights of --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because we recently had -- I think in respect
18 of the refiling of the expert report of Mr. Theunens, you opposed taking
19 the time from the date of refiling, but --
20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the difference there is, Your Honour,
21 we believe that all of the information necessary to make an informed
22 decision about their response is before the Defence at this stage. The
23 fact that we may redact a paragraph or several paragraphs in compliance
24 with the Chamber's guidance wouldn't -- I don't believe would affect
25 their ability to make an informed response to that filing.
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll further consider the matter.
3 Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 [Interpretation] We would need once again P495 [Realtime
6 transcript read in error "46795"]. Once again it's the official report
7 from the Sarajevo CSB. And this document is under seal.
8 JUDGE ORIE: What we see at this moment is a P number where
9 luckily we are not yet at. We are not in the 46000 yet. Let's ...
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] From this document we need page 2 in
11 English version, paragraph 1, and B/C/S version also page 2, paragraph 1.
12 Somewhere around the middle of this paragraph, in the B/C/S
13 version and in the English version, the last third of this paragraph
15 The next projectile ricochetted off the asphalt surface and hit
16 the wall of Dzemaludin Lujinovic's family house in Majdanska Street,
17 exploding on impact and damaging the house.
18 Can we please see 1D759 in e-court. And we can find the same
19 photograph of poorer quality in P497, page 11, photograph 11.
20 [In English] I'm sorry, before I continue, I just want to check
21 whether all our exhibits were on the record. So have we asked for 755 to
22 be admitted, please. No?
23 JUDGE ORIE: No, you have not.
24 MR. LUKIC: Can we do that now?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D755 receives number D214,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: D214 is admitted. Please proceed.
4 MR. LUKIC: Then next one we ask to be admitted, 1D752.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Have we seen that, Mr. -- we have seen it, and it's
6 not yet tendered.
7 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] You can start at 751.
9 MR. LUKIC: 751? Now I saw that. Thank you. First 1D751,
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: 1D751 receives number D215, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted.
14 MR. LUKIC: 1D752.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number D216, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted.
18 MR. LUKIC: 1D754.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number D217, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You also had 753.
22 MR. LUKIC: I didn't ask for that. Yes, 1D753, please.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: D218, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: D218 is admitted. Mr. Lukic, 1D759, any --
1 MR. LUKIC: 759 is on our screen, so I haven't finished that one
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you for reminding me anyways. I will forget
5 for sure.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And my colleagues are assisting me as you are
7 aware of.
8 MR. LUKIC: May I continue?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Suljevic, here in front of us is a
12 photograph relating to Majdanska Street. You can see here next to
13 number 8, on the asphalt, the place which is marked as the one from which
14 the shell ricochetted and then hit the family house up there, also
15 visible on the screen. Could you please mark the location on the asphalt
16 the place where the shell ricochetted and also whether you know what was
17 damaged on the house by the ricochet.
18 A. No, no. I did not go out on the site, so I'm not familiar with
19 the position or the house or which house was hit or any of that, and on
20 the basis of this photograph, I cannot even guess. It's obvious that
21 there is some sort of damage on the surface next to the number 8, and
22 perhaps we might zoom in so that it would be more easily seen.
23 Q. Yes.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please zoom in. Yes, just
25 like that.
1 Q. Can you see it now?
2 A. Yes, it's visible. The damage on the asphalt is visible.
3 Whether there's anything else in the crater, I don't know that, because I
4 cannot see it well.
5 Q. Can you please mark the crater, and mark the material on the
6 right which can also be seen.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the witness said the crater was to the
8 right of number 8, while the Chamber is still able to detect that there
9 is some damage to the surface of the asphalt and that there is some small
10 particles of whatever around. The Chamber is still able to see that even
11 without being guided by the witness, unless you have any specific
12 questions to ask him, but the witness told us --
13 MR. LUKIC: I -- I do, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although please keep in mind that the witness
15 said that it's very difficult for him to draw any conclusions or make any
16 observations on the relation of the photograph.
17 MR. LUKIC: I will ask the witness and if he can --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's then see, but the marking seems to be
20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Suljevic, you can see that all the fragments
22 from the crater are to the right of the supposed location of the
23 ricochet. In your view, is this something normal, that fragments from
24 the surface would all be blown out to the right side?
25 A. Can you be more specific in your question, please?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first zoom out slightly. Let's first ask
2 whether these are fragments of the crater or not. Let's first ask
3 whether the witness recognises whatever is there on the ground, whether
4 you consider this on the basis of what you see, fragments of the crater.
5 That's the first question. And the second one, whether they're all on
6 the right.
7 Could you answer first that question. What do you see on the
8 surface? Are these fragments of the crater?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the right from number 8 we can
10 see the damage on the asphalt, but I cannot claim what caused it on the
11 basis of this photograph, whether it's the crater made by a projectile
12 that exploded or by a projectile that ricochetted and whether it's just
13 an imprint from the ricocheting of the ordnance.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nor could I claim which street this
16 is just on the basis of the photograph, nothing.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I will have to dwell a bit more on this.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but then please be very concrete, because
20 apparently you see only small fragments of whatever to the right, whereas
21 I see quite a few to the left as well. So therefore, I'm slightly
22 surprised by the question, but if the witness sheds additional light,
23 please put very concrete and precise questions to him.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Your colleagues mention this as the place where the shell
1 ricochetted and that flying from there it damaged the house which we can
2 see on the screen before us. Do you doubt that report, because you say
3 that you can not confirm whether this is that specific street and that
4 specific location?
5 A. I wouldn't like to speculate. I don't know where the projectile
6 came from, where it flew on, but if you suggest that it ricochetted on
7 the asphalt and that the damage can be seen on the house, then it would
8 be logical that the incoming trajectory or the direction from which the
9 projectile came is from the bottom of the photograph. If my colleagues
10 wrote that, then this is what their writing says, but I cannot confirm
11 any of that because I didn't go out to the site, nor can I deny it.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Next question, please, Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Can you see in this photograph that this hole was dug out because
15 it has sharp edges? Would you agree that it was not caused by the impact
16 of a shell but, rather, by digging?
17 A. Well, let me repeat once again. I wouldn't speculate or express
18 any conjectures on the basis of this photograph because I'm not certain
19 what this is all about.
20 Q. All right. We have finished with this. Now we'll go back to
21 something. Yesterday, I had to abandon a line of questioning because I
22 had an inadequate map in the e-court.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So could we now please see 1D722A.
24 And just for your information, it was an incident in
25 Dositejeva Street 224.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document is not in e-court, Your Honours.
2 MR. LUKIC: Can we see 1D722 then? Maybe it's replaced. We had
3 this map yesterday but it's too much enlarged, so obviously I'll have to
4 return to that one again.
5 Q. We'll move on and go to incident in Mis Irbina 18.
6 [Interpretation] For that we need something that you mentioned in your
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In B/C/S it's page 20, paragraph 66;
9 and in English, it's page 11, paragraph 66.
10 Q. You say in your statement that in this incident, everything was
11 caused by 120-millimetre shell, which was fired from the VRS position in
12 Miljevici. You also told us that Mirza Jamakovic was killed in this
13 incident. I apologise. Mirza Jamakovic's son was killed and his
14 daughter, 14-year-old, was injured. This is mentioned in paragraph 67 of
15 your statement.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please see 1D722 in e-court.
17 In this case we will be able to work with this document. We just need to
18 turn it around, this map, clockwise for 90 degrees, please.
19 Q. Could you please mark on this map -- I see here below Marsala
20 Tita Street, Mis Irbina Street. Can you please mark the building number
21 18 Mis Irbina Street. There a letter P here; correct?
22 A. Just a second. [Marks]. It was around here, this incident.
23 Q. All right. Would you now please mark the place where the
24 security services centre is.
25 A. Yes. Across from there in Benovalencija. [Marks]. Somewhere
1 around here.
2 Q. Would you now please also draw a circle around the BiH
3 Presidency, though we can see that it's written on the map.
4 A. Yes. [Marks].
5 Q. Do you know where be the command of the 105th Motorised Brigade
6 was located, in the Sipad building?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You don't know. All right. Do you know where the command of the
9 1st Corps of the BH Army was in Danijela Ozme?
10 A. I never went there. I know that it was located somewhere there
11 in Danijela Ozme, but I wouldn't know in which specific building.
12 Q. All right. Let us move on.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we would need 1D721.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, yes, we have to have that admitted and
15 it would be helpful if you invite the witness to put some letters next to
16 the --
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes. I told you I'm going to forget something.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Excuse me. Could you please write number 18 by
19 the circle with which you marked Mis Irbina number 18?
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. And next to the circle with which you marked the Sarajevo CSB,
22 just write CSB, please.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. And we have the last circle where we see the Presidency of BH.
25 So there's no need to mark anything.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to tender the
2 document into evidence, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D722 as marked by the witness receives
5 number D219, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I called up another document. The
8 witness participated in its drafting. The document has not been
9 translated. A translation is pending. We will use it only to establish
10 that the witness did participate in the on-site investigation.
11 Q. On page 1 you see your name under number 6. Is that right,
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Judge Zdenko Eterovic heads the investigating team; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In this document we need page 13,
17 which is a rough draft.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm just wondering which 65 ter number --
19 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] -- English translation --
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- or which one the -- it's not on the record.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It should be 1D721.
22 MR. LUKIC: Yes, 1D721. It's not from the Prosecutor's list,
23 it's our document.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It was mentioned --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes. It was mentioned, you said, "Now we could
1 need 1D721" at page 53, line 12. It's clear now.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, could we please get a little context on
5 the record in terms of what incident and what date this material relates
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, give me one second. It's paragraph 66 of
9 witness's statement, and 67. It's Mis Irbina, 27th of June, 1995.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And the sketch is part of that report --
11 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- or is it separate?
13 MR. LUKIC: It is part of that report, page 13.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look. Yes. Please proceed,
15 Mr. --
16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
17 Q. [Interpretation] We can see that somebody used English to enter
18 some data. I apologise. It is only in my version but not in the other.
19 Please look at this schematic and mark -- and I repeat, this is a
20 case that you participated in. Can you mark the bunker in front of the
21 security services centre and subsequently we're also going to show a
22 photo depicting that bunker.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, Mr. Lukic, could you first ask the
24 witness to identify where the -- the building you are apparently
25 referring to, where that is found on this sketch, if he knows. What is
1 the sketch at all? I've got no idea yet.
2 MR. LUKIC: Give me one second. I'll try to find where the
3 sketch --
4 JUDGE ORIE: I see at least there seems to be some kind of a
5 passage to the --
6 MR. LUKIC: Let us see, maybe I rushed too much. Let's go back
7 two pages. So go to page 11 first. I didn't want to bother Your Honours
8 with the text since don't have the translation.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Page 11 is a cover page.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Can you confirm for us that this document depicts the place where
12 the incident happened in Sarajevo in front of Mis Irbina Street number
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises. Number 18.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Can you confirm that, that this schematic depicts shelling in
17 Sarajevo in Mis Irbina Street in front of number 18?
18 A. Yes, but I want to make things very clear for the Trial Chamber.
19 This was not part of our report. It was part of the entire case. It was
20 not us who drafted this drawing. It was the CSB who did that.
21 Q. Thank you for that explanation. Photos were taken on the
22 29th of June, 1995; is that correct?
23 A. Well, I did not participate in those activities, but if that is
24 what it says, then I suppose that is the case.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page. Can
1 we display it on the screen, please. Page 12. Zoom in on the lower part
2 where it says "Description."
3 "On 27 June 1995, at 1825 hundred hours, a mortar shell landed
4 and exploded in the courtyard in front of the building at Mis Irbina
5 Street number 18. The shell was fired from the aggressor's positions
6 from the south-west direction. On that occasion Mirza Jamakovic was
7 killed." Actually, I'm not sure about the first name. "Whereas
8 Jasenkova -- Jasenka Jamakovic, Adi Habel, Milan Terzic, Davor Mitic,
9 Vladimir Knezevic, and Alija Starogorac were seriously wounded."
10 JUDGE ORIE: Did you read "Vladimir Knezevic"? I see Davor.
11 MR. LUKIC: Davor. No, I said Davor.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, Davor Mitic. [In English] Then
14 Knezevic Vladimir.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I see, yes. I see Vladimir is without a W, yes, or
16 a very small one, yes.
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Did you work on that incident?
19 A. Yes. That was the incident. I didn't draft the report. There
20 is obviously a mistake here. It was not Mirza Jamakovic who was killed
21 but Hariz, his son. And his daughter's name was Jesenka, not Jasenka as
22 is stated in here.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, your mike is on. Do you want to ask
1 JUDGE ORIE: No. I was just -- I was just wondering how we are
2 going to proceed with all this. Is there any dispute as this is most
3 likely is a report about that?
4 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, this appears to be a file with respect
5 to this incident.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution was -- suggests from proceeding and
8 especially in terms of the questions that have been raised, that the
9 parties discuss what parts of this file to tender, acquire translations
10 for it, and then admit that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And it is about a mortar, Mr. -- is that what
12 you read, Mr. Lukic?
13 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I don't know what you want to do with
15 it, but we are ...
16 MR. LUKIC: I just want to go back to the drawing to ask the
17 witness to mark some additional stuff on the drawing for us.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And that's the drawing on page 13, is that --
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. LUKIC: Coming after that page -- that, yeah, page number 12
22 with description.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I've got no idea what it draws, but ...
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. First of all, in my previous question I did not -- or, rather, I
1 was not very precise. The Judge insists on the location of the building
2 at Mis Irbina 18. Can you mark that for us.
3 A. [Marks]
4 JUDGE ORIE: What are we looking at, streets or buildings or what
5 are we looking at, Mr. ...
6 MR. LUKIC: This witness would say, "I didn't draw this," but --
7 JUDGE ORIE: No, but I take it if you want to ask --
8 MR. LUKIC: -- those are buildings.
9 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to ask questions about it --
10 MR. LUKIC: I understand that those are ...
11 JUDGE ORIE: I see, for example, I see a shape, I don't know
12 whether it's a building or not, which, forgive me, looks like a -- it
13 looks like an ice cream on a -- what is that? It apparently hit
14 something or not, or is that just a middle of the page --
15 MR. LUKIC: I started with a building because you were interested
16 in the building in the first place.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
18 MR. LUKIC: I'll move on.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That is then a building, yes.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
21 Q. This is the building at Mis Irbina 18; right? Or 20, perhaps?
22 A. I don't know the exact number, but this is just one part of the
23 building's wall. I encircled the entrance into the building from the
24 side of the passage. To be more precise, this is the entrance into the
25 building on the side.
1 Q. Could you mark the bigger circle with number 18.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. And you mark the smaller circle with the letter E standing for
4 the English word "entrance," if you will.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Now can you mark the building of the Sarajevo CSB, please.
7 A. I don't know whether what we see here is the end of the CSB
8 building or whether it is already the adjacent building. I'm not sure.
9 Q. If you're not sure, don't mark anything.
10 A. I don't -- I don't think that this is a part of the building.
11 Currently there are some commercial premises on the right-hand side, and
12 I believe that the adjacent building is the CSB building. I don't know
13 whether they shared a wall or not. I really don't know.
14 Q. And the cone-shaped building or the ice cream-shaped building,
15 would that represent a mortar shell? How do you understand this drawing?
16 A. No. I don't know what the author of the drawing had in mind. Is
17 there a description of -- anywhere? I don't know what is depicted in
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, please put clear questions to the witness
20 and -- because the witness apparently is a bit lost as well what it all
21 presents. Either you introduce in such a way that it's clear to everyone
22 or move on.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we go back to the previous page,
24 page 12. We will not keep this -- [In English] We'll have to come back
25 anyways, first.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But you will lose the markings.
2 MR. LUKIC: I will -- I will -- we'll make them again. Thank
4 Q. [Interpretation] We're interested in the top part. We'll have to
5 retain this in our memories, then I will jog your memory. Number 1 it
6 the place where the shell landed, its crater; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Number 2 are traces of blood. Number 3, damage on the entrance
9 door. There's no number 4. Number 5, again traces of blood. 6, traces
10 of blood. Letter B, a sentry box.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would suggest to put both on the screen, this
12 list on the left side and the sketch on the right side.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. That would be a good idea.
14 Can we have it that way.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Now, look at the drawing. Can you see number 1?
16 A. Number 1 is in a smudged area in the drawing.
17 Q. Yes. Can you mark it? It's the place where the shell landed.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. And do you see number 3, damage on the entrance door?
20 A. I can't see number 3, but I know what door you are talking about.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Number 3 seems to be in a detail A, which is found
22 to the -- at the right side of the sketch, and where it is a detail of is
23 unclear to me yet, but if the witness could tell us.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. I can't see number 3, but could you nevertheless mark the door.
1 You've already done it before.
2 A. Yes, and I will also include letter A. I'm sure that there must
3 be a line leading from this letter A, but it's not visible in this copy
4 of the drawing.
5 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be a dotted line from that door going
6 down to the right. It's a dotted very thin line, and it is then -- it
7 seems that it -- where we have the cone, the top of the cone goes into
8 the left then and further down. So I see a line, Mr. Lukic, but I have
9 great difficulties yet in comparing the shape of the detail of A with
10 what we find as number A on the sketch as a whole. It seems not to be
11 much similarity. I don't know where the door is. I'm totally lost. And
12 we are looking at this moment only at a part of the sketch.
13 MR. LUKIC: Yes. On the other part you just see that detail A.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that's where we find the 2 and the 3, isn't
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So if we are going through the legend, then we'd
18 have to look at that as well. And then it says it's a detail of A. If
19 we could move a little bit to the right.
20 MR. LUKIC: We cannot now move anywhere.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We can not move at this moment because it's marked,
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes. But I will ask only one more question and then
24 we'll go to that detail part.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Suljevic, look at the drawing and tell us whether you can
3 mark the sentry box in the illustration key. It is under B.
4 A. I can see letter B, and I suppose that it refers to this part
5 here. [Marks].
6 Q. Precisely so, and we will later see that in a photo which is also
7 part of the file.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now can we tender this drawing
9 with the witness's markings into evidence, please.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be?
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D721 as marked by the witness receives
12 number D220, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted. Mr. Lukic, there seems to be also
14 something under number 5 which is very difficult to read. 1, 2, 3, and 4
15 says "mjesta fotografisanja," and then there's a 5 which is not well
16 legible. It looks like "pravac" or "pravas."
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] "Incoming trajectory of the
18 projectile." [In English] The direction of ...
19 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, that is --
20 MR. LUKIC: I would rather have it translated by the booth.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. I see that. But is that a 5 or is that
22 a -- or is that on a photograph number 5? I've got no idea. Could you
23 please take care that we are assisted by the evidence and not confused by
25 MR. LUKIC: That's the only version we found, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's about your organisation of the questions
2 you put to the witness and the organisation by which you introduced this
3 evidence to us.
4 MR. LUKIC: I didn't ask about this part at all.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You are putting something to us where we have no
6 idea what we are looking at, and if you want us to consider it in the
7 interest of your client, then please present it in such a way --
8 MR. LUKIC: I'm trying, Your Honour, but I'm working with the
9 documents not composed by us. We are -- we have to use semi --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, it's a matter of being organised. That
11 is it, nothing else, nothing more. Start with what we can understand.
12 Put clear questions.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have 1D721,
14 page 4.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: We have just had 1D721. It's D220.
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, but we had page 13. Now we have to have page 4,
17 Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Page 4. That's where the photographs are. Yes.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. This bunker or guard post as it is referred to in the report is
21 in the immediate vicinity of the explosion and marked accordingly in the
22 sketch; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. This is the guard post in front of the security services centre
25 of the Ministry of the Interior in downtown Sarajevo; correct?
1 A. Yes. That's the check-point where the policemen used to stand.
2 I wouldn't call it a guard post, because all facilities secured by police
3 have posts for a security person, and this one was secured against
4 projectile impact with these sandbags.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to go back once again to
6 the sketch now. So if we could please show page 13 of the same document.
7 Q. The children were in the entrance hall of the building which is
8 marked here as detail A; is that correct?
9 A. That's correct. And if I may clarify a bit so as to make it
10 clearer for the Trial Chamber. Numbers 5 and 6 are the markings for the
11 places where traces of blood were found, and the following places are
12 marked in such a way. [Marks]. 5 and 6 indicate those locations, but I
13 do not see where the trajectory is drawn. Probably it cannot be seen on
14 this copy. I can suppose where it had come from and where it is. We can
15 discern something here, so that's probably the incoming trajectory of the
16 projectile, but without the original drawing, it's difficult.
17 And let me continue. Detail A indicates the entrance to the
18 entry hallway where the children were injured and one of them killed, and
19 that is here as we marked a while ago. [Marks]. That is the entrance.
20 That was entry hall and the staircase inside the building. That was the
21 entrance leading into the building.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Now, what you marked, and let's put an E to that for
23 "Entrance." If you'd please be so kind.
24 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, apparently at the right lower part there
1 is a detail sketch of what is A, and we find A where you earlier marked
2 entrance. Now, I have difficulties in comparing the shape of what is
3 found under detail A with what I see around where you marked it E for
4 "Entrance." But perhaps first we should look at the text under the
5 detail. Perhaps that may clarify something.
6 Could we zoom in if its legible at all? No, we cannot zoom in.
7 Mr. Lukic, it's just a matter of reading, and Mr. Weber has not
8 objected yet. Can you tell us what approximately an arrow upwards and
9 under that there is some text --
10 MR. LUKIC: I cannot read this.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You cannot read it. Then we will not know what it
12 says. Then please proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Q. Before this is removed from the screen, can you please also draw
15 a straight line from the place marked as the place of explosion in this
16 drawing to the place where the entrance is and where the doors are
17 through which one piece of shrapnel pierced according to the report?
18 A. Yes. The Judge noticed this dotted line a while ago, and this is
19 the line that indicates that.
20 Q. Can you please just draw on top of it so that it's stronger and
21 more visible, and please draw number 1 above the line. Thank you.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. The sketch of the site says the following: Someone read it and
24 we can see here that the distance is 17.60 metres. Do you have any
25 information about this? And your line, the line that you marked last,
1 crossed the number now.
2 A. I do not doubt the measurements. It's around 15 metres from the
3 place of the impact to the doors of the building. So that's it.
4 Q. Yes. Thank you.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please tender this document?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, page of a report marked by the
8 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number D221, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. Could I ask the
10 witness to look at it and perhaps have it enlarged slightly, the middle
11 part. No, the middle part. That part, yes.
12 Witness, do you see that apparently the dotted line does not only
13 go downwards in -- to the right but then apparently at -- I don't know
14 what it is, then goes back and is -- also there are two dotted lines,
15 each of them apparently going to a place where traces of blood are found.
16 Do you have any idea what -- is that also what you expect to be the
17 trajectory of shrapnel after the explosion so that it would have caused
18 the blood at 5 and the blood at 6?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. The dotted lines
20 show precisely the distance between the crater and the places where
21 certain traces were found. 5 and 6 are traces of blood, and in the
22 detail on the other side is the hole on the doors caused by the
23 projectile which pierced through them. So the precise distances are
24 marked here, and the shrapnel had the trajectory from the place of the
25 impact to the door that was pierced by the shrapnel.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Which means it follows the dotted line, unless it
2 did not go in a straight line.
3 Let's move on. I slowly start grabbing at least some of what it
4 all presents.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: But could we also ask the witness, because that's
7 still unclear, the -- the cone shape with the little Vs in the centre,
8 what does that represent? You see it? It's a double line surrounded by
9 an irregular shape and little Vs and at the top of it we find the
10 impacts. Could you tell us what that is?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I will try. I
12 suppose, and we'll confirm that from the photographs if we have them,
13 that it is a grass plot with no concrete, and I think that the little Vs
14 stand for grass and that everything surrounding it is a concrete surface,
15 but from this point in time I cannot really remember if this is so.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Would everyone agree that it's quite common to use
17 little Vs for grass? That is then one.
18 And then I also see what looks as little -- possibly little
19 cameras. Would that indicate how photographs were taken? I see two
20 little structures, one facing, if I could say so, the door, the other one
21 facing the grassy -- grassy patch. Would that be camera positions as far
22 as you're aware of? And I see a few more on --
23 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, yes. We can find it on page -- which is
24 prior to this page. On -- we have B, "strazarska kucica,"
25 [Interpretation] "guard post," [In English] and then we have and then I,
1 II, III, IV, in Roman letters, places of taking pictures.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that we -- in O, what seems -- looks
3 like cameras. That we have numbers in it. I see a I, II, III, II and
4 III close to each other, and most likely IV in the lower left part of the
6 Yes. Please proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: But perhaps after the break, because it's time for a
9 break. Mr. Lukic, if you would have carefully studied all the maps and
10 the report, which I cannot study because it is not in a language I
11 understand, all these matters like photographs, camera positions, grassy
12 patch, et cetera, you could have introduced that in approximately five to
13 seven minutes. We now spent approximately 45 minutes in total chaos, and
14 we slowly now think that we understand some of it.
15 Mr. Weber.
16 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the Prosecution would just ask that
17 1D721, the entire file get marked for identification pending
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Lukic?
20 MR. LUKIC: We agree, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D721 receives OTP number or --
23 JUDGE ORIE: No, we give it a Defence number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: D222, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: D222 is marked for identification.
1 The witness may follow the usher. We'll take a break.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could you tell us how much time you think
5 you would still need?
6 MR. LUKIC: I think I will have to use all my time I asked,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but we'll consider -- we're also considering
9 the way in which you used your time, and we'll also consider that all the
10 time which is written down on our bill, to say so, that it's mainly to
11 clarify what seems to be Defence evidence and just for the Chamber to
12 make it digestible and, to that extent, assisting the Defence in
13 presenting its evidence, and we'll consider that and I'll ask for a time
14 report from Madam Registrar.
15 MR. LUKIC: I just want to ask Your Honours that although this
16 statement is pretty short, there are so many --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the only thing I'm talking about is the
18 chaotic way in which you present all this at this moment.
19 We take a break, and we resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 1.18 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 1 .41 p.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
23 Meanwhile, Mr. Lukic, could you explain in two or three lines what the
24 purpose of your line of questioning at this moment is.
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. We want to prove that a kid that
1 died in this incident killed himself. Actually, he was playing with
2 explosives given to him by his father, and it's obvious from the
3 photographs there is only one fragment of the shell entered through that
4 door allegedly killing him, destroying his face and wounding five other
5 kids. According to us, it's not possible.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's clear what you're heading for.
7 Mr. Groome.
8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I can take advantage of these free
9 movements. Your Honour, the Prosecution is always looking for ways to
10 reduce the size of its case and in discussing the matter of investigators
11 from Sarajevo with members of the team, we've come to the conclusion that
12 RM175, who is scheduled to testify at the end of next week is no longer
13 necessary because many of the documents that we would have tendered
14 through him have now been admitted in evidence. Your Honours, in an
15 effort to ensure that next week is full, we will be endeavouring to
16 advance RM013, who is scheduled the following week, that's week 24, into
17 the end of next week. Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We'll hear from the Defence whether there's any
19 problem with this change in scheduling.
20 MR. LUKIC: It's hard for us to know at this moment, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I'll wait for you. You have an opportunity to think
22 about it.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
24 [The witness takes the stand]
25 JUDGE ORIE: You may now proceed, Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D721. We're interested
3 in page 6.
4 Q. Sir, what we can see here is a glass door; right?
5 A. I believe that it is a tin door.
6 Q. Very well. There's a number 3 here on page 12, and the key says
7 that number 3 indicates the damage on the door, and we can see that
8 there's one shrapnel trace on the door.
9 A. Yes. There's just one shrapnel damage on the door.
10 Q. Would you agree with me that there's no damage on the wall,
12 A. On the right-hand side you can see some damage. This is a wall
13 made of facade brick, so there is some damage.
14 Q. Could you please mark what you believe is damage on the wall.
15 A. Yes, I will mark what I think is damage. [Marks]. And there are
16 others somewhat smaller which I can't see, but I can't claim that there
17 is no more damage.
18 Q. Very well.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up 1D724.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, you asked about the one shrapnel damage
21 on the door. I would like to be shown that. I can't see it.
22 MR. LUKIC: We have marked one number we have on that door
23 according to the official record made by CSB Sarajevo. They said one
24 penetration. It's marked with one. If there was more, we would have
25 more numbers.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where is it on the door? I don't know. I can't
2 read B/C/S.
3 MR. LUKIC: I trust them that there is one. I cannot even also
4 see penetration.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you were asking the witness if he could see
6 the damage on the -- the one shrapnel damage on the door and he said yes.
7 And I'm trying to find out which --
8 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... it's above number 3 what I
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, would it assist you, and we could not use
11 this one, so let's have this one first out to look at page 7 of the
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But this should be tendered before.
14 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: It should be tendered before. Madam Registrar.
16 MR. LUKIC: Before -- before it's tendered, maybe we can ask the
18 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, can you mark the place where you see damage
19 on the door?
20 JUDGE ORIE: We started saving already, so, Mr. Lukic, I suggest
21 to you are -- it's gone. Yes.
22 Witness, can you now mark where you see damage on the door,
23 shrapnel damage, if you can see it.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the quality of the
25 photo is such that there -- that without the key under the photo and the
1 number 3, I wouldn't be sure where damage is. However, under the photo
2 it says that number 3 denotes damage on the entrance door probably caused
3 by shrapnel. I can mark a little arrow above number 3 which probably
4 points to the damage on the door. That's what I can mark. [Marks].
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't think there's any need for having that
6 marked. Well, you marked it already. Now you have a circle around the
7 3. Could you again make the marking you made earlier, that is the damage
8 to the wall. Could you make that same marking again.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. [Marks]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The right marking is the damage on the wall,
11 the marking on the 3 is the other one.
12 Madam Registrar, this would receive number?
13 THE REGISTRAR: D223, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence.
15 Mr. Lukic, if it would assist you, you could consider 1D00721,
16 page 7. But please proceed as you wish.
17 MR. LUKIC: Okay. I see nothing here. [Interpretation] I would
18 like to call up 1D724 now.
19 Q. Sir, this is the same door. The photo was taken in 2010, and it
20 is the same wall. Do you agree with me that there's no visible damage in
21 this photo?
22 A. I agree. There is no noticeable damage, at least there's none in
23 this photo.
24 Q. Very well. My next question is this: Did you find any
25 casualties, any victims when you got to the spot?
1 A. No.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now we would like to see page 10
3 in 1D721.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before we move, I would like to ask the witness
5 in relation to this photograph on the screen, do you recognise that this
6 is the same location as the door we have seen before?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could assume that it's the same,
8 but without the instructions, I can say that the door is different. The
9 wall is the same. If we were to look at the photo independently, I could
10 not confirm that it's the same place. I do not have any doubts that it
11 is the same place, but the photo was taken much after the war. And it is
12 true that this is the door to number 20 at the moment, as it is at the
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This door seems to be a door made of glass. The
15 door you have seen earlier, you said it was made of tin.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. During the war,
17 there were very few glass surfaces which were intact. Most of those were
18 damaged by war. I don't know what kind of door existed before the war.
19 During the war the door was made of tin. It had a tin surface, not a
20 glass surface.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. And now I would like to
23 call up page 10 in 1D721, but before that I would like to tender into
24 evidence the document that we have just had on the screen, D1724.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D724 receives number D224,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: D224 is admitted into evidence.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
5 Q. Although the photos are black and white, and I know that it is
6 not easy for you to be looking at the photos of your colleague's dead
7 son, did you see Jamakovic at the time? Did you see what kind of
8 injuries he had sustained?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Can you see that in the black and white photos? I'm going to
11 tell you that those injuries were caused by the explosion that happened
12 in the vicinity of the child's face and not by shrapnel. Could you agree
13 that that was the cause of his injuries and that five other children were
14 injured by the shrapnel of a mortar shell which exploded 15 metres away?
15 A. I'm sure that they were not hurt by one single shrapnel fragment.
16 I don't know why you think that one single shrapnel fragment injured all
17 of the children.
18 Q. Let me tell you. All of the children were indoors, behind the
19 closed door, and it is stated that one shrapnel pierced the door. Do you
20 think that more than one shrapnel pierced the door at the same time?
21 A. I'm not saying that the door --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
23 MR. WEBER: Objection to the form of the question. Counsel's
24 essentially testifying and describing an event. If that is stated at a
25 certain report or page, we just ask that the witness be allowed to see
1 that before he comments on such a thing.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before that, are these people lying on their side
3 or are they standing? How are these photographs supposed to be? Are
4 they okay like this?
5 MR. LUKIC: Yes, that's a dead body. Dead body.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, there are a lot of -- a lot of
7 suggestions in your question. Could you explore with the witness to what
8 extent he can verify the factual description you gave or put to him where
9 it's found in the report.
10 MR. LUKIC: I'm asking the witness.
11 Q. [Interpretation] You have just stated that you think that they
12 could not have all been hurt by one piece of shrapnel. According to your
13 information, were there more pieces of shrapnel that pierced the door?
14 Is it not stated in the report?
15 A. I don't have any other information, but I don't know that the
16 door was closed during the explosion. I never came by that information.
17 I don't know whether the door was closed. It is possible that it was
18 open, so there would be no shrapnel traces on the door.
19 Q. Can one expect that there would be no damage on the wall from a
20 mortar shell that exploded 17 metres away, bar one that you noticed?
21 Judging from your experience, what would you say?
22 A. We did not establish the exact number of and extent of damage
23 during the explosion. I would not go into speculation as to why we don't
24 have sufficient information.
25 Every projectile is tested during the manufacture process for the
1 number of pieces of shrapnel that will be caused by its explosion. I
2 don't know -- I'm not sure that any analysis based on the information
3 that we have at our disposal would yield the correct result. What we saw
4 in that photo is a door and a very narrow strip of wall around the door.
5 What went on around the area, behind the door, we can't see and there is
6 no way for us to know that.
7 Q. Please look at the screen in front of you. The photos are black
8 and white. If we're talking about a mortar shell shrapnel, can it cause
9 this type of injury which Jamakovic sustained and which caused his death,
10 or would it be more consistent with an explosion of an explosive device
11 which was in his hands, perhaps, or in his very close vicinity?
12 A. According to the information available to me, the boy died of
13 shrapnel wounds. I can't conclude that based on these photos. The
14 photos are blurred, and I don't want to go into analysing something that
15 I can hardly see.
16 Q. If we're talking about mortar shells, an 82 mortar shell, how
17 many pieces of shrapnel is it fragmented into?
18 A. I don't know. I can't even give you an approximate number. I
19 don't want to speculate.
20 Q. Now just bear with me for a moment, please. Let's go to the flea
21 market in Bascarsija. You've already testified about that.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need P12822 in e-court.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think instead of P it should be a 65 ter
25 MR. LUKIC: It is 65 ter, sorry.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You drive us to P numbers well over 10000, which
2 scares us a bit.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 12822. That's what we have on the
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, please.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In English we need page 1, and in the
8 B/C/S version we need page 5, bullet point 4.
9 Q. This is to demonstrate that you were indeed a member of the team.
10 It is stated here following the information: An on-site commission was
11 formed, and under number 4 we see your name; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, it is correct.
13 Q. Allow me to retract a little and go back to the questions
14 relative to the late Jamakovic. If you found any shrapnel that injured
15 the children and killed Jamakovic, was that documented in any way?
16 A. We received shrapnel for analysis, and that was described in our
17 analysis. I don't know if any shrapnel was extracted from the dead boy's
19 Q. This was just a little digression. I'm going back to the flea
20 market from here.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need the same document, page 9 in
22 B/C/S, the penultimate and final paragraphs, and in English page 4, two
23 paragraphs from the bottom of the page.
24 Q. You signed this report on the expert analysis?
25 A. Yes, with my initials.
1 Q. To say for the record it happens in Telali Street, which was
2 formerly called Petra Kocica; correct? You can see it here.
3 A. Yes, the report mentions the name of the street at the relevant
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We now need to see the sketch which
6 does not exist in the English version, so we do not need any page from
7 that version. We need the sketch on page 17 of the B/C/S version.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, please.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. As these were two shells, could you please mark for us in this
11 sketch the places where the shells fell. We can see one down here.
12 A. One explosion, but there is no key.
13 Q. Yes. First we should show the key. It is my mistake and thank
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The key can be found on page 16 of
16 the B/C/S version and at page 7 of the English version.
17 We can see what the key says. I will read it now. Number 1,
18 location of explosion of one of the projectiles in front of a shop.
19 Under number 2, location where the other projectile was activated
20 at the curb of Oprkanj Street.
21 Number 9, fragment of a projectile fuse; 06 and 30 [as
22 interpreted], projectile fragments, and then under 10 and 11, projectile
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, looking at the English version and the
25 original version, there seems to be quite a difference. Unless it is not
1 the same page.
2 MR. LUKIC: It is the same page.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, for example, in the English, 12 is missing
4 where it clearly appears in the original. 06 and 30 appear after 9,
5 before 10. It doesn't appear in English. Therefore, I think if this is
6 a Prosecution uploaded document, we should have the translation be
7 verified. Yes.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Can we now
9 please move on to the sketch.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the meantime, we should make a correction of
11 the transcript. Page 79, line 14, I think it was one of the interpreters
12 misspoke. You are dealing with number 1 fragment of a projectile fuse,
13 number 6 and 13 but it's written "30," which is obviously a mistake. It
14 should read "13."
15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
16 [Interpretation] Can we now move it a little bit just -- or we
17 can see everything in the sketch.
18 Q. Can you see numbers 1 and 2?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. These are -- let us focus on number 1. If you can mark it and
21 explain what sort of an explosion that was.
22 A. This is number 1. This is the explosion right next to the wall
23 of a building.
24 Q. And number 2 as well, please. Just mark it so that it will be
25 easier for you to follow.
1 A. [Marks]. This is the place where the projectile impacted against
2 the curb.
3 Q. Under number 9, it's said that this was the fuse.
4 A. Yes. That was the body of the fuse. That is the place where the
5 body of the fuse was located. It was found at this spot.
6 Q. Next to number 1 at the top of the sketch there is no crater. No
7 crater is documented. And the fuse, can you determine first of all what
8 was the direction from which those shells came?
9 A. Yes, and I can confirm that there were craters in both locations.
10 Now, whether this is documented or not ...
11 Q. Can you tell us where did these shells come from?
12 A. Approximately from this direction. [Marks]. Whether it was
13 perhaps a little bit to the left or to the right, that's a different
14 thing, but the angle is precisely determined in the report.
15 Q. The fuse marked with number 9 is oriented in the opposite
16 direction from the direction that the shell came from. Isn't that what's
17 documented here?
18 A. It is located next to number 9.
19 Q. I would suggest to you that this is impossible. Would you agree
20 with me that it is impossible for a fuse to be found in the place showing
21 the direction from which the shell flew?
22 A. No, because the projectile which is marked by number 1 -- or,
23 rather, the place of its impact, it impacted in the place at the bottom
24 of the wall of this building, just next to the ground. So it's not
25 impossible that many pieces of shrapnel bounced off the wall and flew
1 back, and the same goes for the fuse. So this is how the fuse came to be
2 in the location where it was found.
3 Q. All right. Thank you. It is the end of our time for today.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I ask one additional question in
5 relation to this. There is an arrow with an N on the top of the
6 building. Does that mean that the top of the building is north, the top
7 of the sketch is north?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore the shells came from approximately the
10 southerly direction.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps south-eastern direction,
12 but the angle is included in the report. As far as I remember, it was
13 south-east but it's specified in the report.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: Before we break, I would just ask to tender this
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, sketch marked by the witness.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Sketch marked by the witness receives number
19 D225, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: D225 is admitted into evidence.
21 We adjourn for the day. I'd like to instruct you, Witness, that
22 you should not speak or communicate in any other way with whomever about
23 your testimony, whether already given yesterday and today or still to be
24 given tomorrow, because we're quite confident that we'll conclude your
25 testimony tomorrow.
1 You may follow the usher. We'd like to see you back tomorrow
2 morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right, Your Honours.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and we resume tomorrow,
6 Wednesday, the 13th of February, in -- at 9.30 in the morning in this
7 same Courtroom I.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of
10 February, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.