130219ED

Page 8891

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

5 And may I invite you Witness RM013 to make a solemn declaration,

6 the text is now handed out to you.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Witness RM013. May I --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

11 JUDGE ORIE: May I invite if any of your answers would be at risk

12 to reveal your identity, do not hesitate to ask me to go into -- that we

13 go into private session.

14 You'll first be examined by Ms. MacGregor. Ms. MacGregor is

15 counsel for the Prosecution.

16 Ms. MacGregor, you may proceed.

17 WITNESS: RM013

18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Examination by Ms. MacGregor:

20 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you.

21 Can the Court Officer please show 65 ter 28722, which should not

22 be broadcast.

23 Q. Mr. Witness, are you able to see the document on the screen in

24 front of you?

25 A. Yes, I am.

Page 8892

1 Q. And without reading aloud what is on the screen, is that your

2 name?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is that your correct date of birth?

5 A. It is.

6 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, the Prosecution asks that 28722 be

7 admitted under seal.

8 MR. LUKIC: No objections.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 Mr. Registrar.

11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P981, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: P981 is admitted under seal.

13 MS. MacGREGOR: Can the Court Officer please show 65 ter 28719,

14 which also should not be broadcast.

15 Q. Witness, while this document is loading, have you previously

16 provided statements to the Office of the Prosecutor about your war-time

17 experiences?

18 A. Yes. On several occasions.

19 Q. After arriving at The Hague this weekend, did you read your

20 statements from 1995 and 1996?

21 A. Yes, I read them all.

22 Q. If can you please look in the screen in front you at the English

23 version of the document, do you recognise your signature at the bottom of

24 the first page of that document?

25 A. Yes. I recognise my signature.

Page 8893

1 MS. MacGREGOR: Can the Court Officer please turn to page 8 of

2 the document in both B/C/S and English version.

3 Q. Mr. Witness, are you able to look at paragraph 40?

4 MS. MacGREGOR: I'm sorry, I don't know if my microphone was on

5 for that question.

6 Q. Mr. Witness --

7 JUDGE ORIE: I heard your question.

8 MS. MacGREGOR: Okay.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And the question has been translated?

10 Witness, you heard the question could you please answer it, or

11 you heard the reference to paragraph 40?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, I didn't hear the

13 question. I was only looking at what is on our screen.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're invited to look at paragraph 40.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 MS. MacGREGOR:

17 Q. While preparing for your testimony, did you recall that the name

18 Suad Islambasic should be included in this list in paragraph 40?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. MacGREGOR: Can the Court Officer please show 65 ter 28720,

21 which should not be broadcast.

22 Q. Witness RM013, looking at the documents in front you, on the

23 English version of the document, do you recognise your signature on the

24 bottom of that document?

25 A. Yes, I recognise my signature.

Page 8894

1 MS. MacGREGOR: Can the Court Officer please show 65 ter 28721,

2 which should also not be broadcast.

3 Q. And while this document is loading, Mr. Witness, in June 2005,

4 did you make written corrections to your 1995 and 1996 statements?

5 A. Yes, I did make corrections.

6 Q. And looking at the screen in front of you, are these those

7 written corrections?

8 A. Yes. These are the corrections that have to do with the dates

9 and the events concerning my being beaten in the camp.

10 Q. Thank you. Is that your signature at the bottom of the English

11 version?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do your statements from 1995 and 1996, along with the corrections

14 that you made in 2005 and today in your testimony, truthfully and

15 accurately reflect your answers during your interviews with the Office of

16 the Prosecutor?

17 A. Yes. Everything is truthful.

18 Q. Would you give the same answers, in substance, if you were

19 examined here today under oath and asked the same questions?

20 A. Yes. I would give the very same answers.

21 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, the 2005 correction note was a

22 subject of an e-mail that the Prosecution sent last week. This note was

23 note included in our Rule 92 ter motion for this witness, and we move now

24 to add it to his -- this witness's proposed Rule 92 ter statement.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

Page 8895

1 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was by mistake that the Prosecution had

3 left out the 2005 corrections.

4 MR. LUKIC: Yeah -- that's why we would object to introduction of

5 those corrections since they were not part of 92 ter motion.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They're now added to it. That's the position

7 of the Prosecution. You say it's better to start cutting out the

8 relevant portions from the previous ones and then to -- or.

9 MR. LUKIC: We have a lot of questions exactly on these issues,

10 so ...

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What about -- if you have questions on these

12 matters, of course, there's still a possibility to put them to the

13 witness, and if there's any need to ask for further time to further

14 prepare, even a re-call of the witness, if need be.

15 MR. LUKIC: We will maintain our objections and --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Maintain your objections.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... rule on that,

18 Your Honours.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will have them all marked for

21 identification and at the end of the testimony of the witness we'll

22 finally decide on admission. Usually we do already admit the statements

23 but since, of course, the corrections are an inherit part of it, we'll

24 wait until the end of the testimony of this witness.

25 Mr. Registrar, could you please assign numbers, first the 1995

Page 8896

1 statement.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 28719 shall be

3 assigned Exhibit P982.

4 JUDGE ORIE: P982 is marked for identification, under seal.

5 The next one, the 1996 statement.

6 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 28720 shall be assigned

7 Exhibit P983.

8 JUDGE ORIE: P983 is marked for identification, under seal.

9 And, finally, the 2005 corrections.

10 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 28721 shall be assigned

11 Exhibit P984, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: P984 is marked for identification, under seal.

13 Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.

14 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Your Honour. If it please the Court,

15 may I now read a short summary of the witness's evidence.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

17 MS. MacGREGOR: Witness RM013 is a Bosnian Muslim from Foca.

18 After Foca was attacked by Serbs in April 1992, Witness RM013 was

19 detained at KP Dom, Foca, for two and a half years.

20 At KP Dom, Witness RM013 and hundreds of other non-Serb detainees

21 were subjected to extremely harsh living conditions and abuse. The

22 detainees were civilians, including old and sick people. During his

23 detention the witness observed many detainees being severely beaten,

24 including some who were beaten to death. Witness RM013 was also beaten

25 and put in solitary confinement on numerous occasions. He was never

Page 8897

1 charged with a crime.

2 Your Honours, that concludes my summary. May I now proceed with

3 my examination of the witness?

4 JUDGE ORIE: You may, Ms. MacGregor.

5 MS. MacGREGOR: Can the Court Officer please show exhibit marked

6 for identification as P983, which should not be broadcast.

7 Q. Mr. Witness, while that is loading, I would like to ask you for

8 more details about the command structure at KP Dom.

9 MS. MacGREGOR: If I can ask the Court Officer to please focus on

10 paragraph 27 of Exhibit P983, in both the English and the B/C/S, which is

11 on page 6 of that document.

12 Q. Witness, are you able to read paragraph 27 on the screen in front

13 of you?

14 A. Yes, I can read it all. Should I read it out?

15 Q. No, thank you. I would like to refer to the first sentence where

16 it states:

17 "Referring to the organisers of what had happened, I think that

18 the prison camp was under the military command."

19 In the last part of that same paragraph, it states:

20 "Gojko Jankovic told them that nothing can happen to the

21 prisoners without the order of the military command."

22 In that paragraph, you identify Gojko Jankovic as a local

23 military commander. What was the role of Gojko Jankovic, if any, at KP

24 Dom?

25 A. As for the KP Dom, I couldn't say really that Gojko Jankovic

Page 8898

1 played a significant role. What I said in my statement was that there

2 were two inmates working with Gojko Jankovic to refurbish what was

3 formally the JNA hall. He guaranteed their safety and said that no harm

4 can come to anyone without an official order coming from the military

5 command.

6 Q. And the same paragraph -- excuse me, in paragraph 28 on that

7 page, you state:

8 "The superior of Jankovic was Kovac. I do not exactly recall his

9 first name, it may be Milan or Marko."

10 How did you know Kovac was the superior of Jankovic?

11 A. I knew Kovac from before. I saw him once in the centre of town,

12 in a nearby square, where he stood with a lined-up group of soldiers. I

13 wasn't able to talk to him at all. I was on a truck with the open back,

14 and we were moving slowly passed.

15 Q. My question, Mr. Witness, was how did you know that Kovac was the

16 superior of Jankovic.

17 A. Kovac was the official military serviceman. From what I

18 remember, he held the rank of the lieutenant-colonel. Based on my own

19 knowledge, and what I heard from guards, he was one of the main

20 commanders of the army in Foca.

21 MS. MacGREGOR: Can the Court Officer please show 65 ter 08340.

22 And this a -- can be a public document.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the Prosecutor please speak into the

24 microphone, perhaps the other microphone. Thank you very much.

25 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, this is a list of names preceded by

Page 8899

1 a cover letter. The list of names -- pardon me. I think I misspoke the

2 65 ter. There it's 08340A. My apologies.

3 As that's loading, Your Honours, 08340A is a list of names

4 preceded by a cover letter. The list of names without the cover letter

5 was on the exhibit list of the Prosecution. Last week, the Prosecution

6 notified the Chamber and the Defence that the cover letter was

7 inadvertently excluded when the list was added to the 65 ter list. The

8 Prosecution now moves to add the letter and the list as one single

9 document to the 65 ter list with the 65 ter number 08340A.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the forgotten cover letter the

11 Prosecution wants to add that one to the list.

12 MR. LUKIC: In general, we do not have objection. But according

13 to ERN numbers, we don't see that it was omitted since different ERN

14 numbers. And in the letter, if we can only be guided to see where it

15 says that this is exactly the -- the list that comes with the letter.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor, you're invited to explain how you are

17 so sure that this cover letter is -- was the cover letter to that list.

18 MS. MacGREGOR: Yes, Your Honours.

19 This document was received in response to a single RFA and if --

20 when we looked at the entire response to the RFA, this letter preceded

21 exactly this list. Additionally, if you look at the first paragraph of

22 the cover letter, it states:

23 "We submit to you the list of personnel engaged in the work

24 obligation in the penal-correctional institution in Foca ... during the

25 period 18 April 1992 to 31 October 1994 ..."

Page 8900

1 If you then look at the list, the title of that list comports

2 with the description in the cover letter.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, no objections --

4 MR. LUKIC: No, no --

5 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.

6 MR. LUKIC: Now can I see that there is a connection.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's the time-period covered by the list and

8 mentioned in the letter.

9 I take it that you -- at a later stage you want to tender this,

10 at least there's no objection against replacing the list, by now the list

11 and the cover letter, together.

12 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Your Honours.

13 Q. Witness, please look at this list, which we've just discussed.

14 MS. MacGREGOR: If the Court Officer can please show page 2 of

15 the document.

16 Witness, did you look at this list while preparing for your

17 testimony?

18 A. Yes, I've seen it.

19 Q. The title of the list refers to Srbinje penal and correctional

20 facility. What is Srbinje, if you know?

21 A. Well, during the war, Srbinje was the town of Foca. In other

22 words, the name of the town was changed.

23 Q. What does Srbinje mean?

24 A. Well, it evokes the ethnic roots of this people. Serbia or Serb.

25 I can't find any other explanation, nor do I know any others.

Page 8901

1 Q. Looking at the list, do you recognise any of the names on that

2 list?

3 A. Looking at this list, I recognised over 70 of the names. I know

4 about 70 of these people.

5 Q. And who were they?

6 A. Well, if you look at the list from the top, you can see the

7 leading men of the KP Dom. And then follow the guards and other

8 employees.

9 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, the Prosecution moves to have

10 08340A admitted as a public exhibit.

11 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.

12 Mr. Registrar.

13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P985, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ORIE: P985 is admitted into evidence.

15 MS. MacGREGOR: Can the Court Officer please show 65 ter 11159A,

16 which is a public document.

17 Q. While preparing -- while -- excuse me. While that document

18 loads, Witness, while preparing for your testimony, were you asked to

19 review photos?

20 A. Yes. And I did review them.

21 Q. Did you recognise any of them?

22 A. I recognised most of them.

23 Q. What were they pictures of?

24 A. The pictures depict the main administrative building, as well as

25 the cells where the detainees were held, and some of the solitary cells.

Page 8902

1 Q. To be clear for the record, of what facility did -- what facility

2 did the pictures represent.

3 A. This is the KP Dom facility.

4 Q. Looking at the picture that is currently in front of you on the

5 screen, in the top photo, what is shown there?

6 A. In the upper part of the photo, I see a room. That's room 11

7 where detainees slept.

8 Q. And what part of the room 11 does the top photo show?

9 A. Well, this was the first dormitory where the inmates slept, on

10 the left-hand side, as you enter the room.

11 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, could you give me one moment.

12 [Prosecution counsel confer]

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 MS. MacGREGOR:

15 Q. Looking at the bottom photo, what does that picture show?

16 A. Well, I assume that this is also a shot taken from room 11 and

17 that it gives a view of the administrative building. That's what you can

18 see if you look out the window.

19 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 11159A as a public

20 exhibit.

21 JUDGE ORIE: That's just this one photograph? Or at least these

22 two photographs.

23 MS. MacGREGOR: That is correct, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.

25 Mr. Registrar.

Page 8903

1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P986, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ORIE: P986 is admitted into evidence.

3 MS. MacGREGOR: Can the Court Officer please show 65 ter 28723,

4 which is a public document.

5 Your Honours, this document was prepared in proofing yesterday

6 and immediately disclosed to the Defence.

7 Q. While that document is loading, Mr. Witness, while preparing for

8 your testimony, did you provide information about inmates you were

9 detained with at KP Dom and what happened to them?

10 A. Yes. Yes, I described everything that happened to them.

11 MS. MacGREGOR: Sorry, I just realised. Please do not broadcast

12 this document, I forgot that it is actually an under-seal document.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, could a redaction be made to the

14 extent necessary.

15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16 JUDGE ORIE: I'm informed that it was not yet broadcast.

17 Please proceed.

18 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

19 Q. How did you come -- Mr. Witness, how did you come to know the

20 information about the whereabouts of the inmates that we discussed --

21 that were discussed during your preparation?

22 A. As far as these detainees that I said had been killed, I saw -- I

23 was an eye-witness and I saw them being killed. As for the others who

24 had been taken for prisoner exchange and then disappeared, I learnt in

25 the past five years or so, up to today, what their fate was because I was

Page 8904

1 informed by their families, and I also learned from the press and the

2 Commission for Missing Persons and Exhumations.

3 Q. Looking at the document that's in front of you, are the comments

4 you made about the inmates summarised accurately in this document?

5 A. Yes, they're all accurate.

6 Q. Have you had time to review this entire chart in a language that

7 you understand?

8 A. Yes, I've had enough time. I read it. And I confirm that it was

9 accurate.

10 Q. And looking at the screen, is that your signature on the bottom

11 of the first page?

12 A. Yes, it is my signature.

13 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 28723 as an

14 exhibit under seal.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor -- yes, Mr. Lukic.

16 MR. LUKIC: We would object, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: You would object.

18 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: On the basis of?

20 MR. LUKIC: On the basis that -- to be honest with you, I didn't

21 have time to check all these names through the statement and I would like

22 to be informed when did we get this statement with the paragraph numbers?

23 Since my version does not numbers on it.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Has it been --

25 MR. LUKIC: It's very hard now for me to follow.

Page 8905

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There are -- apparently there are various

2 issues: When did you receive the version as it is on our screen now.

3 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: That's one.

5 The second one is that you said you object because you had no

6 time yet. Do you object for those purposes or do you ask for more time

7 to form your opinion?

8 MR. LUKIC: I will probably be able to go through the statement

9 during the break. When I got the statement, I ordered the statement with

10 numbers.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would suggest that we MFI it. But, at the

12 same time, Ms. MacGregor, the layout of this document is not really

13 perfect, isn't it? Under 2, we find, the last line, the reference to the

14 1995 ICTY statement, we find it under 3, where in the B/C/S version it's

15 found under 2.

16 Now, with some imagination, of course, we can reconstruct by --

17 but let me see, does that go on on all three pages of the ...

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ORIE: The -- I can't say that the Chamber is really amused

20 by it, but we are able to read the English comment, the first line of

21 number 3. We consider that to be the last line of number 2. We consider

22 the first line we find now under number 4 in the English to be the last

23 line of 3. We similarly find the last -- the first line of 5 to be the

24 last line of 4. And we consider the first line of 6 to be the last line

25 of 5. And I think on from there, everything is orderly again.

Page 8906

1 That's how we interpret this document.

2 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, if I may, I think that the correct

3 order may actually be the opposite in that the references to the

4 statements may be correct on the English side and not on the B/C/S. If

5 it would help the record, I can easily clear this up on a break --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps if that is the case, of course, I

7 looked at the original, but if you say -- you checked that during the

8 next break, you prepare a new one, a correct one, and we don't then have

9 to guess on what's right or wrong, and then we'll -- you may invite, for

10 that purpose only, Mr. Lukic, the witness may be invited to sign again

11 and put a new date on it.

12 Mr. Lukic, I take it that there's no objection against a

13 corrected version to be presented to the witness? He could even do it in

14 court, if need be.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps you can show us paragraph 40 and 42 of

16 the 1995 statement which is not numbered in the version we have.

17 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honour, unfortunately, the numbered

18 paragraphs - to address counsel's issue and Your Honours' issue - was

19 uploaded to e-court on February 14th, so I apologise if the versions that

20 you have before you do not contain the paragraph numbering.

21 If the Court Officer can please call up the exhibit that's been

22 marked for identification as P982 and turn to paragraphs 40 and 42, which

23 are on pages 8 and 9, please.

24 Your Honour, would you like me to question the witness about the

25 references that are made in the chart to this paragraph or is this simply

Page 8907

1 for the Chamber to have a look?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's briefly look at it.

3 Let me see. And let's also consider whether we can deal with the

4 matter in open session. We first focus on entry number 2. And,

5 therefore, we need -- that is, without any reference.

6 Then we look at entry number 3, where we would like to have a

7 look at 42 in the statement. So it's the next page.

8 Yes. I see the name in entry 3 appears in paragraph 42.

9 Then for the next one, for entry number 4, I would like to have

10 a look back at paragraph 40. And that's -- yes. That's where we see

11 that name appear.

12 We have a look at number 5. Back to paragraph 42, please. Yes.

13 We see the name there.

14 Could we now have a look at entry number 6. We need

15 paragraph 42. We have paragraph 42. Yes, the name appears there.

16 Under those circumstances, the Chamber will read in the B/C/S

17 part of the chart, we'll consider the English version to be correct and

18 the B/C/S version, the last line of certain entries to be accurately put

19 in the next entry following the English version.

20 I take it that we have sufficiently clarified hereby. There's no

21 need to ask any further questions to the witness.

22 Since the Defence wants to consider the matter, Mr. Registrar,

23 the number to be assigned would be.

24 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 28723 shall receive Exhibit P987,

25 Your Honours.

Page 8908

1 JUDGE ORIE: P987 is marked for identification, under seal.

2 You may proceed.

3 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you for your patience, Your Honours.

4 If the Court Officer can please show 65 ter 14074. This is a

5 public document.

6 Q. While we're waiting for that to upload, Witness, in the exhibit

7 we were just discussing, which was marked for identification as P987, you

8 indicate that some of the inmates listed on that chart were taken away

9 for prisoner exchange but in fact were never heard from again.

10 The list that is coming up on your screen now is entitled: "List

11 of Detained person, Muslims, Who Were Released from KP Dom Foca on 29

12 August 1992."

13 As a detainee at KP Dom on that date, do you know if any of those

14 detainees were in fact exchanged?

15 A. Looking at this list, I noticed that it is incorrect, that this

16 was not a full exchange of detainees. For instance, under number 55.

17 There were also people who were killed at KP Dom. For instance, the name

18 under 48, Alija Dzelil.

19 Q. Are all the --

20 A. And then Ismet Pasovic.

21 Q. What happened to Ismet Pasovic?

22 A. Ismet Pasovic was taken for an exchange - one of the exchanges -

23 and he disappeared, but then finally his bones were recovered. He was

24 exhumed and buried.

25 Q. Were all the individuals on this list disappeared?

Page 8909

1 A. As far as I can note, I believe that they've all disappeared.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: What number is Ismet Pasovic on this list?

3 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honour, number 30.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

5 MS. MacGREGOR:

6 Q. Mr. Witness, if you can please look at the names closely. Do you

7 have knowledge that everyone on this list disappeared? And please take a

8 moment to read through several of them.

9 A. Yes.

10 No, not everyone disappeared. I do recognise a number of names

11 of the people who were exchanged, but there are also a lot of names here

12 of people who were killed. For instance number 5, Ismet Causevic. He

13 was taken for exchange, killed, exhumed, buried.

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness.

15 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders

16 65 ter 14074 as a public exhibit.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

18 MR. LUKIC: We would just like to know the source, who created

19 this document, if it's possible.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you inform Mr. Lukic, Ms. MacGregor.

21 MS. MacGREGOR: Yes, Your Honour. This list was a defence

22 exhibit in the Bosnian war crimes chamber against Mitar Rasovic. It was

23 provided to the Office of the Prosecution here from the prosecutor's

24 office in Bosnia. It was a trial exhibit from the defence in that case.

25 MR. LUKIC: Still, can we know the source? Is it possible to

Page 8910

1 know who created the document?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Do we know, Ms. MacGregor.

3 MS. MacGREGOR: No, Your Honour.

4 MR. LUKIC: We would object to the admission of this document.

5 JUDGE ORIE: On the basis of ...

6 MR. LUKIC: On the basis that there is no --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Authenticity concerns --

8 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

9 JUDGE ORIE: -- in a sense. Okay. Then the reason is clear.

10 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honour, my response would be that counsel's

11 concerns would go to weight given to the document, but I would also offer

12 that we are able to investigate further about the provenance of the

13 document. I did question a staff member with the Office of the

14 Prosecutor who actually seized the document. He did not have any other

15 knowledge, but I can request further, if necessary.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I -- the Chamber will first mark this document

17 for identification.

18 Mr. Registrar, it would be under what number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 14074 shall be

20 assigned Exhibit P988.

21 JUDGE ORIE: P988 is admitted into -- and is marked for

22 identification and can be as a public document.

23 Ms. MacGregor, you -- you say that authenticity is a matter of

24 weight. Let's just assume it's not authentic. Is it then a matter of

25 weight or is it a matter of ...

Page 8911

1 Isn't authenticity an issue of which directly relates to

2 admissibility as well?

3 MS. MacGREGOR: I think, Your Honour, what I meant was: As I

4 understand counsel's objection, he is not objecting to the authenticity

5 of what I have stated, that it is a list that was used in a trial.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, he says, I don't know who created this

7 document. Therefore, I don't know whether it was the accused in that

8 case or his neighbour or his stepfather or -- so he says, I'm -- I would

9 like to know more about the authenticity of this document. Was it

10 created, for example, by someone who was working in KP Dom? Is that a

11 matter of weight or is that a matter of admissibility.

12 MS. MacGREGOR: The Prosecution is not offering the document as a

13 document that the Prosecution states was an official KP Dom document. We

14 are offering it as an exhibit that was used in a trial. When I say it

15 goes to weight --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it was authentic in that trial, then it

17 would then suddenly become -- get another status here.

18 Let's not -- it has been marked for identification. Please

19 further investigate where it comes from and then we'll hear from the

20 Prosecution.

21 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you. We will, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 Meanwhile, I put on the record that you have used 44 of your 45

24 minutes, Ms. MacGregor.

25 MS. MacGREGOR: I do have one last exhibit to address,

Page 8912

1 Your Honours. If I am able to do so.

2 JUDGE ORIE: One more exhibit you may address. Please proceed.

3 MS. MacGREGOR:

4 Q. Witness, in your evidence you refer to visits by the Red Cross to

5 the KP Dom. How many visits were there while you were at KP Dom?

6 A. There were three to four such visits.

7 MS. MacGREGOR: Can the Court Officer please load -- excuse me,

8 yes, 65 ter 28736 which is a public document.

9 Q. Witness, while that is loading, were you physically inside KP Dom

10 prison during the visits by the Red Cross?

11 A. When the Red Cross visited, a group of 25 citizens, including

12 myself, were being hidden from the Red Cross.

13 Q. Do you know why you were being hidden?

14 A. On more than one occasion, the answer given to us was that we

15 were prominent citizens of sorts, that we were to be exchanged for big

16 shots, such as generals. These were the things that we were told.

17 Q. Do you know whether Red Cross officials met with inmates to

18 interview them during those visits?

19 A. The Red Cross did have an opportunity to talk to them, but in the

20 presence of guards and KP Dom managers. The head of guard had to be

21 there or his deputy.

22 Q. Please look at the document on the screen in front of you.

23 MS. MacGREGOR: Court Officer, can you please turn only in the

24 English version to page 2 of the document.

25 Q. Mr. Witness, looking at paragraph 3, and the paragraph numbers

Page 8913

1 are difficult to see but they are on the left-hand side of your screen in

2 B/C/S.

3 MS. MacGREGOR: Court Officer, can you please show the top of

4 page 2 in the English version.

5 Q. Looking at page 3 -- excuse me, paragraph 3, Mr. Witness, I

6 direct your attention where it says, referring to an ICRC team from

7 Geneva, "they demanded to have --"

8 JUDGE ORIE: We finish this question. Two more minutes.

9 Please proceed.

10 MS. MacGREGOR:

11 Q. "-- private conversations with and examine prisoners at the Foca

12 institution without the presence of the official KP Dom organs. Their

13 demand was rejected. They refused to do this in the presence of the

14 prison warden."

15 Witness, is this description of the interviews consistent with

16 what you know about the Red Cross visits based on -- that happened while

17 you were there?

18 A. Yes. I've just said that normally guards or someone from the

19 administration of the KP Dom had to be present whenever the Red Cross

20 visited.

21 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter

22 28736 as a public exhibit.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

24 MR. LUKIC: We object to this one also, Your Honours, since it

25 was disclosed to the Defence too late.

Page 8917

1 there Serbian forces in Foca before the 8th of April, 1992, or weren't

2 there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Some parts of the town were held by the Muslim forces; right?

5 A. A smaller part, yes.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.

9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Can we say that clashes broke out in Foca

11 between the Muslim and Serb forces?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. Earlier today you also spoke of Gojko Jankovic. You said that he

14 played no role in the KP Dom but that there were two inmates working with

15 him. You also said that he had told them that no harm can come to them

16 without an order from the military command. Who did you hear this from?

17 A. From Fehim Dedovic, aka Zanga. And Zahid Hajric, who is aka

18 Zanga. They were working with him to refurbish these premises of the

19 former JNA hall who were placed at the disposal of Jankovic.

20 Q. I apologise, I'm waiting for interpretation to finish. That's

21 why I'm making these pauses.

22 When did they tell you this?

23 A. Well, to recall the exact period, I think it was 1993.

24 Q. Do you recall in the presence of whom they told you this?

25 A. In the presence of all the people who were together with us in

Page 8918

1 that room.

2 Q. The individuals that you recognised on that list as having been

3 employed at the KP Dom, did they decide the fate of the inmates?

4 A. To my knowledge, they brought lists. And people who were on

5 that -- on those lists were called out.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Some of these individuals you knew from before. And I mean the

9 KP Dom staff; right?

10 A. I knew 70 per cent of those employed at the KP Dom.

11 Q. None of the staff at the KP Dom were members of the army; is that

12 right?

13 A. From what I could observe, whoever wore a camouflage uniform was

14 a member of the army. That was my view.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have a look in e-court at

16 P985, I believe it is now. Probably the list starts from page 2 of that

17 document, if it's been amalgamated.

18 Q. You see the names. You can read them; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Under 3, we see Milorad Krnojelac, son of Bogdan; right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you see him wearing a military uniform?

23 A. Yes.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

Page 8919

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. So you considered him to -- to be a member of the army.

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 1 of the

5 document.

6 Q. In the heading, we can see that it reads: "Penal-Correctional

7 Facility Srbinje." You already told us that this was the war-time name

8 of Foca.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. We can see here that the correctional facility, i.e., its warden,

11 Zoran Sekulovic, addressed the Ministry of Justice in Banja Luka on the

12 26th of October, 1998.

13 Do you know today - and did you know at the time - that the

14 correctional and penal facilities, the KP Doms, that was the name

15 attributed to the institutions where sentences were served in the former

16 Yugoslavia fell under the system of the Ministry of Justice?

17 A. Yes, I -- I am aware of that.

18 Q. You've told us today, when speaking about Red Cross visits, that

19 25 people were kept hidden on that occasion because they were prominent

20 citizens of Muslim of ethnicity in Foca. Do you know when this was, that

21 you were hidden?

22 A. We were hidden throughout 1992. It was only in 1993 - sometime

23 in 1993, I'm not sure about the month, July, or August, doesn't matter -

24 the Red Cross managed to see that group of 25 people for the first time

25 and register them, whereas all the others had been registered previously.

Page 8920

1 Q. In other words, all of the 25 persons were registered, as you

2 say, in mid-1993?

3 A. Yes. Up until that point, we were being kept hidden.

4 Q. Did you have information as to whether Red Cross -- the Red Cross

5 representatives spoke to any of the inmates of the KP Dom?

6 A. Yes, they spoke to Mr. Rasovic, who was the head of guard. They

7 kept insisting that other people be registered as well. They had

8 knowledge of that group that was being hidden, because my brother was in

9 the camp as well and he was registered. And he told the Red Cross that

10 there was myself and others who were being kept hidden there.

11 Q. Based on this, we can conclude that the Red Cross spoke to the

12 other individuals who were imprisoned in the KP Dom, such as your

13 brother.

14 A. Yes, of course. They were registered and visited, as is usual.

15 Q. We've already mentioned Mr. Krnojelac. He was the warden of the

16 KP Dom in Foca; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac in Foca at any time before the clashes

19 broke out in the presence of SDS officials?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. You did not attend the meetings that they held, I suppose.

22 A. No. No, nor was I able to.

23 Q. Is it true that the house of Milorad Krnojelac, the KP Dom

24 warden, had been set on fire at the very beginning of the conflict?

25 A. I'm not aware of that.

Page 8921

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look up -- look at 1D798.

2 Q. This is the transcript of your testimony in Mr. Karadzic.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 28 in e-court. Lines 22

4 to 25.

5 Q. I'll read them out for you in English so that you can hear it

6 properly interpreted:

7 "Q. [In English] Thank you. Do you recall that as the fighting

8 broke out in town the first houses to burn were those belonging to the

9 more prominent Serbs and among them the house of Milorad Krnojelac?

10 "A. I know that the house was set on fire ..."

11 A. To my mind, this is an insignificant issue. It is possible that

12 I stated this.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Are you aware of this, that Krnojelac's house was burnt at the

16 beginning of the conflict?

17 A. Well, his house was located along the combat line itself. So I

18 suppose that it was set on fire.

19 Q. You've told us today that you weren't aware of it. Now you've

20 told us that you presume that this was the case, and in your testimony in

21 the case against Mr. Karadzic, you said that you were aware of it.

22 Can you reconcile these three positions for us now? Do you

23 assume, do you know, or do you not know?

24 A. I assume so. Two construction workers from the KP Dom were taken

25 to perform jobs for Mr. Krnojelac. So that's why I said in the Karadzic

Page 8922

1 case that I assumed so. I couldn't know. I was in an enclosed space.

2 And I know, based on the statements from these two individuals, that they

3 were working on Mr. Krnojelac's house.

4 Q. What did these people tell you? Why were they working on that

5 house? Did they mention that it had been burned?

6 A. Well, since they were putting up the roof, I assume that it was

7 burnt, yes.

8 Q. Very well. Along which line did the fighting in Foca takes

9 place?

10 A. I cannot explain that to you. I don't know. I know only the

11 part of town called Donje Polje where the Muslims were. As for the

12 centre of town, Gornje Polje and the surrounding area, that was under the

13 Serbs.

14 Q. When you say in the surrounding areas, are you saying that the

15 there were no Muslim villages around Foca that were under Muslim control?

16 In particular, for instance, in the direction of Ustikolina?

17 A. Well, that was the only way out for the Muslim population, the

18 area in the direction of Ustikolina and across the Drina. As for the

19 rest, all the rest was under the control of the Serb forces.

20 Q. But you did not answer my question about the villages. Do you

21 know which villages were under Muslim control?

22 A. Well, there were none. I mean, there was the part that was on

23 the opposite side of the river from Foca. That was Sukovac village. And

24 then all the way to Ustikolina, there was the --

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not catch the name.

Page 8923

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the name, please.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. The interpreters did not hear the name of the village.

4 A. Well, there was Sukovac and Papunci as well as Ustikolina.

5 Q. Were there negotiations under way about the removal of civilians

6 from the area?

7 A. I don't understand your question. What do you mean? In what

8 respect?

9 Q. Well, were there negotiations on evacuating civilians from the

10 town of -- the removal of ones to the other side and the other way

11 around. Do you know anything about negotiations?

12 A. Well, if you're asking me about the fighting and the war in Foca

13 or anything like that, I have no clue. I had no role in it, nor did I

14 know any facts about what was going on. During the aggression, I spent

15 that time in the basement, and after Foca fell, I left for Montenegro.

16 Q. Where did the Serb leadership meet before the aggression on Foca,

17 as you've said?

18 A. Well, as far as I know, they met in the church in Todor Mahala.

19 Q. Who told you that?

20 A. Well, a friend who was the president before the war, and also

21 during the war, the president of the municipal assembly.

22 Q. Did he attend those meetings? I assume he didn't.

23 A. Well, he attended the meetings within the municipality with --

24 but whether he did with SDS representatives or anybody else, I wouldn't

25 know anything about that.

Page 8924

1 Q. [No interpretation]

2 A. [No interpretation]

3 JUDGE ORIE: We have not received interpretation.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. We'll have to repeat this because it did not make it into the

6 transcript.

7 I assume that he did not take part in the meetings of the Serbs

8 in the church in Todor Mahala.

9 A. My answer was he didn't. That's certain.

10 Q. Who did he hear this from? Did he tell you?

11 A. Well, he heard from Mr. Mladjenovic who was the president of the

12 Executive Committee of the municipality of Foca.

13 Q. Did Mladjenovic attend those meetings?

14 A. I don't know that, nor did Mladjenovic ever talk about it. He

15 didn't mention it.

16 Q. Would you agree with me that there was a lot of distrust in those

17 days already, distrust between the various ethnic communities in Foca,

18 that people socialised separately as opposed to the previous times?

19 A. Well, yes, I could agree with you on that. The socialising

20 stopped on the eve of the war.

21 Q. The president of the municipal assembly told you about meetings

22 that he attended ; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did he tell you that there were negotiations about the

25 possibility of dividing Foca municipality into two municipalities. One

Page 8925

1 would be the Serb part, and then there would be another, which would be

2 the Muslim part?

3 A. He did mention those proposals. However, he himself did not

4 believe that this would actually work, that this would not prevent -- he

5 didn't believe it would prevent the war from breaking out.

6 Q. So you knew at the time that there were attempts to divide the

7 Foca municipality through negotiations.

8 A. Well, yes. This was something that people had worked on, even

9 before the war began.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see 1D798, please.

11 Page 16.

12 Q. This is your testimony in the Karadzic case.

13 JUDGE ORIE: If you revisit the testimony in the Karadzic case,

14 Mr. Lukic, I'd like to draw your attention to the previous time when you

15 used that. It was about a question about whether Mr. Krnojelac's house

16 was burned yes or no. You asked the witness was that one of the first

17 houses that were burnt. And then you put to him what he said -- what the

18 witness said, I don't remember, or I don't know. Then you put to him

19 what his testimony was in the Karadzic case. But you quoted only half of

20 it.

21 The witness there said that he was aware that Krnojelac's house

22 was burnt but he added to that on the next page, "... but he didn't know

23 whether it was among the first." And then you put to him, Are you aware

24 of it? And that's in this case, page 35, line 21. "Are you aware of

25 this, that concern Krnojelac's house was burned at the beginning of the

Page 8926

1 conflict?" And then the witness said, Well, I assume because it was

2 close to the confrontation line. And then you put to him that he said

3 different things in different proceedings.

4 That was not entirely fair to the witness because you put a

5 composite question, that is, the house burned in the beginning. He said

6 that, no. Then it turned out that he was aware of the house being burned

7 although indirect knowledge because it was because two people had worked

8 on the roof. And then you put to him, But you said at the time that it

9 was in the beginning of the conflict. Where the witness specifically -

10 but you didn't quote that - said, "I am aware of the house being burned.

11 I don't know" - and that was still on the page but then it continues on

12 the next page - "whether it was among the first."

13 This means fully quote the witness if you want to refer to his

14 previous statement. That's one. And, second, avoid composite question

15 because that create all of the problem.

16 Please draw the attention to the Karadzic testimony you want to

17 draw the witness attention to.

18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. It wasn't my intention to

19 really misquote [Overlapping speakers] ... context --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Otherwise it would have -- I might have used

21 different language. But I had --

22 MR. LUKIC: But it could happen, of course. I cut only what I'm

23 interested in and it can happen that maybe my quotation is not full.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if I expected you to have bad intentions

25 with this, I might have used different language.

Page 8927

1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, we have page 16. Now lets take a look at

5 line 7 through 14 where you were asked the following, and I will read

6 this out in English so it can be interpreted to you, beginning from the

7 central part of line 7:

8 [In English] "Do you know that there were agreements and talks

9 about forming two municipalities whereby the Serbs and Muslims would also

10 have a part of the town itself, as well as their villages with

11 administrative links to their own municipality?

12 "A. No, I'm not aware of that. I don't know that.

13 "Q. The place where you worked, you never heard that there were

14 negotiations about the forming of two municipalities?

15 "A. No. No, I don't [sic] -- I did not."

16 A. Well, in this statement that you've read out from, I didn't

17 intend to go into the politics or problems that were -- that were beyond

18 the perimeter of the prison, but now that you have asked me here, I do

19 acknowledge that I knew about it.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. Now I would like to ask

21 you a few things about the HOS units in the surroundings of Foca. Could

22 you tell us what the HOS is?

23 A. Well, in translation, that would be the Croatian Armed Forces.

24 Q. Did you know of their existence around Foca? For instance, in

25 Ustikolina, in particular.

Page 8928

1 A. Well, I did hear of them.

2 Q. What did you hear? What were their numbers?

3 A. Well, that I wouldn't know. I just heard that they existed as an

4 armed force.

5 Q. How far is Ustikolina from Foca? For instance, if you were to

6 travel by car?

7 A. Well, I believe it's about 17 kilometres away.

8 Q. Did you know who commanded these formations?

9 A. Well, there was mention of Alija Siljak, but I can only assume

10 that he was not really prepared for that at the time. He was just a

11 hustler, nothing else.

12 Q. Alija Siljak is a Muslim; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What did you know about the co-operation between Croat and Muslim

15 forces around Foca at the time?

16 A. Well, I couldn't know anything about them, nor do I.

17 Q. I would now briefly like to talk about Montenegro. You said you

18 left for Montenegro. You were assisted in that by a neighbour who was

19 Serb; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. On the way to Montenegro, you were stopped at check-points but

22 you did manage to get through.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You explained in your statement how it came about that you were

25 arrested there and then sent back to Foca or towards Foca.

Page 8929

1 Now, on the bus on your way back, there were about half of the

2 bus were Serbs and the other half were Muslim; correct?

3 A. 21 and 25 respectively.

4 Q. So 21 -- there were 21 Muslims and 25 Serbs; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who arrested you in Montenegro?

7 A. We were arrested by the Montenegrin police.

8 Q. On the border with Bosnia, you were handed over to the Foca

9 police; correct?

10 A. Well, I believe it is important to say here whose idea it was.

11 Q. Please go ahead.

12 A. The Montenegrin police arrested us as part of their co-operation

13 with the military command of Republika Srpska where they had sent their

14 men from Foca specifically, those men who were at the police station

15 where I was taken, and I recognised those men.

16 Q. Whom did you recognise? You say they were from the military

17 command of Republika Srpska.

18 A. Milorad Stevanovic, also known as Sumar, and Zdravko Matovic.

19 Q. Who -- what unit or what organisation did they belong to?

20 A. They said that they were investigating inspectors on behalf of

21 the Foca Command.

22 Q. You say "the Foca Command." What sort of command was it; do you

23 know?

24 A. Well, I don't know. You should ask them what command it was that

25 they represented.

Page 8930

1 Q. As you crossed over into Bosnia, were you taken over by the Foca

2 police?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You were not accompanied by soldiers, were you?

5 A. There was only the driver wearing the regular military uniform.

6 The bus driver, I mean.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just interrupt.

8 "Military uniform" of what -- which army?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Republika Srpska.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Sir, it was on the 12th of May, 1992, that the Army of

13 Republika Srpska was set up; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Sorry, your answer wasn't recorded -- oh, now it is.

16 All of this was taking place in April; right? Or, actually, when

17 did it take place?

18 A. On the 21st of May, I was in Herceg-Novi; and on the 25th of May,

19 I was at the border between Montenegro and Foca.

20 Q. Thank you. My mistake.

21 Is it correct that at the time in the town of Foca both civilians

22 and people under compulsory military -- compulsory work service wore

23 uniforms?

24 A. Well, I don't know what it was that civilians wore in town. As

25 for those who were under compulsory work service, as you put it, in the

Page 8931

1 KP Dom, did wear military uniforms.

2 Q. Did you have an opportunity to see any drivers of buses and

3 trucks on other occasions who wore military uniforms, although they were

4 not conscripts, they were under compulsory work service, but it

5 facilitated their movement about the town?

6 A. Yes. I did observe that drivers wore uniforms, yes.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. LUKIC: I don't know if it's the time for the break? I don't

9 have the track of the time.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I think we resumed at five minutes to 11.00 so we'd

11 have another ten minutes.

12 Mr. Lukic, could you tell us how much more time you would need?

13 MR. LUKIC: I think by the end of the day, probably. Till the

14 end of the day.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please continue.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Would you agree with me that, before the war, both Serbs and

18 Croats left Foca?

19 A. I am not aware of that, that the Serbs were leaving Foca.

20 Q. Upon your arrival in Igalo, did you find a large number of Foca

21 Serbs there?

22 A. Yes, women and children, as well as former employees of the

23 Gradjenje construction company from Foca.

24 Q. Do you know why the Serbian women and children left Foca? Did

25 you have any information about the reasons why people were leaving Foca?

Page 8932

1 A. Well, I suppose it was the Serbs who knew that there was going to

2 be a war. They were the first ones to know that, and they were placing

3 their families out of harm's way.

4 Q. Do you mean to say that you are not aware of the attacks on the

5 Serbian youth in Foca by Muslim extremists?

6 A. I'm not aware of that.

7 Q. Who was being picked up by the Montenegrin police in Montenegro?

8 Who were the 25 persons who were on that bus together with you and who

9 were of Serbian ethnicity?

10 A. I do believe, after all, that the police was there in the service

11 of Montenegro, that it was there to help out those who had come from Foca

12 to pick us up.

13 Q. The police in Montenegro -- sorry, let me rephrase that.

14 Is it true that there was compulsory mobilisation in force at the

15 time in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

16 A. I don't know that it was declared. Since there was a war on, I

17 think it would be natural for mobilisation to have been declared.

18 Q. The Serbs who were arrested together with you were also

19 transported by bus to the KP Dom under a police escort; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I'd like to discuss your health now.

22 When you left for Sarajevo, when you left the KP Dom in Foca, you

23 applied to your relative for help; right? You did not undergo any

24 laboratory testing, did you?

25 A. That's right. There was no opportunity to do that. Sarajevo was

Page 8937

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

4 Mr. Lukic, the Chamber has decided that it admits 65 ter 28736.

5 In view of the late disclosure, if at any point in time you'd need

6 further time to explore this relatively short document, which at first

7 sight does not impose a heavy burden on the Defence, but if you would

8 need any further remedy at any point in time, the Chamber will -- we

9 welcome to hear such an application.

10 Please proceed. Yes, of course, we now need a number to be

11 assigned to it. Mr. Registrar.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 28736 shall be

13 assigned Exhibit P989. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: P989 is admitted into evidence.

15 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Q. My learned colleague requested that I quote the Krnojelac

18 transcript, that I quote your words relating to your memory being better

19 lately, and, at her request, I will do so now.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need 65 ter 1D729 -- no, my

21 apologies, 792. That is the transcript of your testimony in Krnojelac,

22 dated 13 February 2001. And we need page 9 in e-court.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor.

24 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, I'm not sure if the portion of the

25 testimony that counsel will be referring to refers to the health matters

Page 8938

1 that we were discussing before the break. If they do, I would just

2 ask --

3 MR. LUKIC: No.

4 JUDGE ORIE: They apparently do not. Let's proceed.

5 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you.

6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

7 Q. [Interpretation] In line 3, you were asked the following:

8 [In English] "That is what you stated, but I'm asking you: When

9 you spoke about this, you also spoke about Mr. Krnojelac, but you never

10 once mentioned that you saw him in front of the Ribarski restaurant in

11 the company of SDS activists."

12 And your answer was:

13 "This is my more -- this is what I remember more recently,

14 absolutely."

15 We will move on. I will quote more portions from the transcript

16 and then we can discuss everything at once.

17 MR. LUKIC: So now I would call page 25 from the same transcript.

18 Yes, it is transcript page 2957.

19 Q. And in line 21, you said, I quote:

20 "It is quite certain that I can remember better now than I could

21 then."

22 MR. LUKIC: Then we need page 47 from the same transcript.

23 Transcript page number should be 2979.

24 Q. The question was from line 9. I quote:

25 "Is it true that in your statement to the Office of the

Page 8939

1 Prosecutor in 1995, on page 5, you said: 'We were enabled to keep

2 clean'?

3 "A. That came later, when that year expired, that is, at the end

4 of 1992 or in June 1993.

5 "Q. Why didn't you say that to the Prosecutor? The way you

6 spoke, it appeared that throughout the period did you have the necessary

7 sanitary conditions.

8 "A. Well, I have refreshed my memory now. I remember things much

9 better now."

10 MR. LUKIC: Then we need page 48 from the same transcript. It

11 should be page 2980.

12 Q. Line 6 the question:

13 "But the incident with Pasovic, known as Paco, was not mentioned

14 in any of your statements to the Office of the Prosecutor or the security

15 centre in Sarajevo.

16 "A. Yes. But my recollection came later."

17 [Interpretation] In reference to what I've read out to you, is it

18 correct, then -- or, rather, was what you said in your statements

19 correct, or was it what you testified to in the Krnojelac case? Because

20 your statements were contradictory. Rather, your statement and your

21 testimony were contradictory. What can we rely on?

22 A. Well, I don't see any contradictory either in my statement or in

23 my later evidence in the Krnojelac case.

24 Q. So, according to you, there is no conflict whatsoever here.

25 A. Well, the truth is that at that time my memory was far better

Page 8940

1 than it has been over the past couple of years, because at that time I

2 did not use as many psychiatric medicines as I am using today.

3 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now I will briefly take you back to

4 Montenegro again because there was one thing that I wanted to clarify.

5 Of the 25 people of Muslim ethnicity that were taken to the

6 police station, why is it that only five of you were detained?

7 A. Well, I'm not clear on that myself. I don't understand it.

8 Because the policemen who was sent by Mr. Stevanovic and

9 Mr. Zdravko Matovic who were on the ground floor, those policemen brought

10 a list with them with the five names, the names of the five men who were

11 supposed to be detained, whereas the rest were let go.

12 Q. In the same transcript, on page 12, that's page 2944 of the

13 transcript, beginning with line 1, you say the following. I will read

14 this out in English:

15 [In English] "A. Well, my assumption was - and I believe I spoke

16 about it - was that those who were in that group of 25, that

17 Mr. Stefanovic did not know them sufficiently well, and that he picked

18 out precisely those amongst us whom he knew."

19 Question by my colleague Bakrac:

20 "And did you mention this reason to the OTP?

21 "A. I think I did.

22 "Q. You told the OTP that you thought you had been picked out as

23 prominent men whom they believed participating in the SDA activities in

24 Foca. That is at variance with what you told us today.

25 "A. Yes. That fact is true."

Page 8941

1 [Interpretation] My question is this: Do you know why, out of

2 the 25 men, the five of you were picked out? Was what you said at the

3 Krnojelac trial or what you said in your statement or what you've

4 actually said here today? Which is correct or don't you see any

5 difference?

6 A. Well, in my statement, you will find the same thing that I said

7 during my evidence in Krnojelac. I said that I could only assume why I

8 was one of the men on the list.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, in the Krnojelac testimony, reference is

10 made to the statement.

11 Which statement was that? I do not know exactly. And I take it

12 that you have compared it. And where do we find it in the statement, if

13 it's our statement?

14 MR. LUKIC: It is one of these two statements. I did compare but

15 I didn't jot it down. Can I use the break it check -- [Overlapping

16 speakers] ...

17 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think we have found it meanwhile. That's the

18 1995 statement.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Page 4.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In Krnojelac it is an assumption and here it

22 is a presumption. Let's stick to the facts and what the witness knows.

23 Because I was a bit -- and if it was then put by your colleague

24 Mr. Bakrac that it is contradictory, it should be clear that it was only

25 a presumption which he expressed in his statement just as it was an

Page 8942

1 assumption as he expressed in Krnojelac. And let's try not to conduct

2 this case on the basis of assumptions or presumptions.

3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. RM013, can we then agree that you don't

5 actually know the reason why you were singled out of that group of 25

6 men. You and four other men?

7 A. Well, from -- as I sit here, if I were to justify or say why it

8 was that -- well, I think that's not necessary.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, if you know, if they told you, or if you

10 know by any other reason, tell us. If you are just guessing, then

11 refrain from doing that. And then you apparently do not know.

12 THE WITNESS: Yeah, okay.

13 [Interpretation] Well, I think it suffices what I've already said

14 in my assumption. I can't see any other reason.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I know that you were already

17 informed by Judge Fluegge, I found the -- where I found in his statement.

18 It's in Serbian version, page 4, paragraph 4, and also in English

19 version, page 4, paragraph 4. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is. Without my colleagues, I would be lost,

21 Mr. Lukic.

22 Please proceed.

23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. [Interpretation] I'd like us to briefly discuss the arrangements

25 of the KP Dom where you were detained.

Page 8943

1 Let's start from lorries. You spoke of lorries at page 2947 of

2 the 13th of February, 2001, in the Krnojelac case. That's page 15 in

3 e-court. The same transcript that we already have on our screens.

4 You speak of lorries bringing food supplies. You mentioned a

5 lorry coming from Uzice. It was a civilian lorry, wasn't it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The licence plates it had were those of Titova Uzice. So that

8 said it all.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, please.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, microphone.

11 MR. LUKIC: Sorry.

12 Q. [Interpretation] In line 11 on that same page, you said that the

13 driver was in civilian clothes; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Then, at page 2947 - we need lines 22 to 25 - you say that when

16 Krnojelac left - that's to say, after he was relieved of his duties - the

17 conditions in the KP Dom changed. You said: "... yes, definitely."

18 You went on to explain this. But let me ask you this: The

19 conditions in the KP Dom improved. They changed for the better; right?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness repeat his answer.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your answer, Witness,

22 whether the circumstances changes for the better.

23 Did they?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

Page 8944

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

3 Q. Then, at page 2949, page 17 in e-court of the same transcript,

4 you say that you insisted with Dr. Dobrilovic -- [In English] Sorry, line

5 20 to 23?

6 [Interpretation] And you asked him what you should do with your

7 pneumonia and you said that you were only given two injections. The

8 question was then: Which injections, antibiotics? And your answer was:

9 Yes.

10 Do you recall this part of your testimony; and do you confirm it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What was Gojko Jankovic's role in the KP Dom?

13 A. Gojko Jankovic did not work for the KP Dom. That must be an

14 error in the family name. Jokanovic.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, Mr. --

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Gojko Jokanovic. You are right. Did he work at the KP Dom?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What was his profession?

21 A. He worked in the health service, a medic.

22 Q. Did you receive your medication from him as well during your time

23 in the KP Dom?

24 A. Once, if I recall. I think it was painkillers.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor.

Page 8945

1 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honour, I'm looking at the transcript, and

2 at least from the way I read it, it appears that the line of questioning

3 is still referring to "he" and the witness clarified that "he, Jankovic,

4 did not work there."

5 The next question from counsel was repeating the name and the

6 question is did he work at KP Dom. I'm not clear who is being spoken

7 about. If you look above that, there's a doctor with a different last

8 name being referred to.

9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. I can clarify.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Whether it is it Jankovic or Jokanovic.

11 MR. LUKIC: Jokanovic. Yes, I think the witness was speaking of

12 Jokanovic.

13 JUDGE ORIE: So you said that the person who worked in the health

14 service, a medic, was Mr. Jokanovic, and he worked for the KP Dom is

15 that --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Then please.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: To make it more complicated in the transcript,

19 line 24, which is on the screen now, the name is Gojko Jovanovic. That

20 should be clarified too.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But it -- well, there is a theatre piece

22 comedy of errors. That is not what we're working in at this moment. But

23 it's clear Gojko Jankovic is the person who did not work for the KP Dom.

24 And the doctor, Jokanovic, did work for the KP Dom.

25 Please proceed.

Page 8946

1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. [Interpretation] During your time in the KP Dom, did you move

3 about the KP Dom freely at all times?

4 A. No. I was not able to move freely. I was constantly under lock

5 and key.

6 Q. Was there a period of time during your stay in the KP Dom that

7 you were able to move freely?

8 A. Yes. That was the period when I was assigned to chop wood within

9 the KP Dom compound.

10 Q. Is it true that during this period of time you were able to

11 freely interact with the inmates who within the KP Dom compound, you

12 could be in contact with them?

13 A. Yes, I could.

14 Q. Let's now discuss the four groups of persons you mentioned as

15 having been taken out of the KP Dom and killed. Can you now tell us the

16 names of the people who were in the first group?

17 A. That would be very difficult without consulting my notes.

18 Q. In other words, without consulting your notes, you would not be

19 able to --

20 A. I can recall their names, but I sincerely doubt that I would be

21 able to recall which particular group they belonged to.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Would it be helpful if you were to have your statement before

25 you?

Page 8947

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: If that how you want to proceed, then perhaps a hard

3 copy could be given to the --

4 MR. LUKIC: Yes, please.

5 JUDGE ORIE: No objection, Ms. MacGregor, I take it.

6 MS. MacGREGOR: I have no objection. I have hard copies.

7 Actually, the witness does have hard copies with him, in front of him

8 now, if --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Oh. The Chamber wasn't aware of that.

10 MS. MacGREGOR: If you could direct him which -- which statement

11 we're referring to.

12 MR. LUKIC: 1995, please.

13 [Interpretation] Paragraph 39 on page 8. My apologies. We need

14 page 7 and paragraph 36.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That should be P982.

16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We need the next page.

18 MR. LUKIC: I -- I went back to paragraph 36, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I apologise.

20 MR. LUKIC: So page -- page 7 is the page.

21 Q. [Interpretation] Do you have paragraph 36 from your 1995

22 statement?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Bear with me for a moment.

25 Q. The first group, as indicated in this written statement, there

Page 8948

1 are eight names.

2 A. Nine.

3 Q. Yes. Were these people taken out, all of them?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor.

5 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, earlier today when we were

6 proceeding through testimony about the 92 ter statements, an amendment

7 was made to this paragraph to add a name. So I just wanted to bring that

8 to the attention of counsel.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: That was the next list -- the next group, not this

11 one.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No --

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The one with eight names. This one is with nine

14 name.

15 MS. MacGREGOR: Sorry. Thank you, Your Honour.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's avoid confusion. My learned

17 friend was referring to paragraph 40 and now we are with paragraph 36.

18 Q. In your view, are these the nine persons who were taken out on

19 that first occasion and beaten up? You said that you observed these

20 beatings.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And there was the total of nine people; right?

23 A. Yes.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, Mr. --

Page 8949

1 MR. LUKIC: I forgot to turn it off and then I forgot to turn it

2 on.

3 [Interpretation] We need page -- first, we need 1D792, page 24 in

4 e-court, which is transcript page 2956 from the Krnojelac case of the

5 13th of February 2001. From line 14 to line 24. There, my learned

6 friend Mr. Bakrac is listing these persons for you and says that -- or it

7 is stated here that --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Can the counsel please repeat his question.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. You said that Munib Veiz was also taken out with this group but

11 that you forgot his name. So was Munib Veiz really taken out with this

12 group?

13 A. No, he was with the second group.

14 Q. Also, on the same occasion, in line 21, my learned friend,

15 Mr. Bakrac told you that you said on that day in that trial that

16 Husein Rikalo was taken out in the second group, whereas here we see him

17 listed as the fourth person in that first group. So was he taken out

18 with the first or with the second group?

19 A. I can't be sure that I could have stated something like this.

20 Husein Rikalo was taken out with the first group.

21 Q. Also in line 22, colleague Bakrac said to you that you stated on

22 that day in this trial that Krunoslav Marinovic was also taken out in the

23 first group. Was Krunoslav Marinovic taken out in the first group?

24 A. Krunoslav Marinovic was taken out in the third group.

25 Q. Therefore, what you stated in respect of Munib Veiz,

Page 8950

1 Husein Rikalo, and Krunoslav Marinovic in the trial against Krnojelac was

2 not correct. Rather, what your statement says is correct?

3 A. Yes, the statement is correct. At the time I was giving this

4 evidence, I must have mixed up the groups.

5 Q. Who was taken out of the inmates from your room?

6 A. Nail Hodzic, Seval Soro, Esad Kiselica, Kruno Marinovic, and I

7 believe ... I don't recall anyone else.

8 Q. Very well. Now we need page 25 of this same transcript. That's

9 page 2957 in the Krnojelac transcript, lines 23 through 25. And then it

10 goes on to the next page. But here we see that my colleague Bakrac

11 actually puts it to you that you had seen these three, that you had

12 mentioned these three in your statement.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now could we see the next page,

14 2958. We need it from the top of the page, 1 through 8. Lines 1 through

15 8.

16 My colleague Bakrac puts it to you here that in the

17 examination-in-chief in the Krnojelac case, you said that Esad Kiselica

18 was not in your room. And then in line 3 you say:

19 "Esad Kiselica was not in my room. I think I made a mistake."

20 Which is correct? What you've said today, what you said in your

21 statement, or your evidence in Krnojelac?

22 A. Only what I said in my statement is correct. There must have

23 been some kind of confusion because it's impossible for me to remember

24 all the men who have been and gone through my room, as it were.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the Chamber is not assisted by the way in

Page 8951

1 which you apparently are seeking to detect certain mistakes made by the

2 witness. What the Chamber is interested in is to hear from this witness

3 whether people detained with him in groups were taken away and what was

4 their fate and not on whether the witness, after 20 years, remembers

5 exactly who was in the first group or the second group. To the extent

6 you wanted to establish that there may be minor inconsistencies, you have

7 done so. The Chamber is not further assisted by continuing this

8 exercise.

9 Please proceed.

10 MR. LUKIC: We just want to make submission that this goes for

11 all four groups, that we could show the differences, but I will move on.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But is it your case that not groups of

13 approximately the number of people having been detained there, is it

14 your -- that -- is it your position that it was all invented by the

15 witness, that these people did not die? Is that -- or are you

16 establishing that some mistakes were made in the groups?

17 We'd like to know that, what your position is.

18 MR. LUKIC: First we are testing the knowledge of this witness.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that wasn't my question.

20 MR. LUKIC: And I cannot --

21 JUDGE ORIE: You have told us that you want to further explore

22 possible errors. Our -- my clear question, is it the position of the

23 Defence that people did not disappear, were not detained, at least not

24 these people, were not killed? Or is it that you want to establish that

25 the witness not in every respect has been consistent in giving the names,

Page 8952

1 putting them in groups, et cetera?

2 Which of the two is it?

3 MR. LUKIC: I don't think that the -- that Defence has to have

4 any position to cross-examine this witness on these issues because he

5 was -- he is testifying about this.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

7 MR. LUKIC: You can't --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you are --

9 MR. LUKIC: I can tell you, we object in totality.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. You object in totality what?

11 MR. LUKIC: If you ask me -- that those people are killed and

12 that this gentleman knows about it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So the position is that these people were not

14 killed. That's your position.

15 MR. LUKIC: What other position can I have?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, other positions are -- you could think of.

17 But it's clear. If that's your position, then please proceed. Then

18 minor mistakes in the grouping is for, as far as I understand, is for you

19 an indication that the witness is reporting persons to have been killed

20 which were not killed.

21 MR. LUKIC: I have to tell you, five -- five and six names, five

22 names out of nine are wrong. And we have the testimony where he claims

23 that he knows.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We will then hear that. At least you've

25 clarified your position.

Page 8953

1 You may proceed.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. In your 1995 statement, we see these names quoted in the second

4 group. That's paragraph 40. There's an additional name that was added

5 to this because there were eight names in that group and now we have

6 nine. Is it the case, for instance, that Seval Soro was in this group?

7 A. No, he wasn't.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic --

9 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: This morning in his evidence in-chief he told us

11 who was the ninth person. Why do you mention another name that's not on

12 that list, in this group?

13 MR. LUKIC: Because, in Krnojelac, that name was in that group.

14 And I will now read the Krnojelac transcript. I asked, again, 1D792,

15 page 26. And we need line 9 up -- up to 22.

16 Q. [Interpretation] My colleague Bakrac here cites the names of the

17 men taken from your statement, your 1995 statement. Apparently you

18 mentioned these eight names that appear in paragraph 40 as those, whereas

19 in line 12 he asks you the following, and I will read in English:

20 [In English] "That is what you listed in your first statement in

21 1995. Today you said to us that the following persons were taken out in

22 the second group: Seval Soro, Mate Ivancic, Zulfo Veiz, Ekrem Tulek,

23 Refik Cankusic. With the exception of Zulfo Veiz, the other persons do

24 not correspond at all to those mentioned in your statement in 1995. How

25 do you explain that?"

Page 8954

1 A. I don't know how relevant this question is, who was in what

2 group.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, relevant or not, would you please answer the

4 question.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I take it that you were still quoting from

6 the transcript of the other case including the last question, "... how do

7 you explain that?"

8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, but --

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was in my --

10 MR. LUKIC: -- my question would be the same.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But before you put this question to the witness,

12 I would like to know what he said earlier in his testimony. You are only

13 quoting from the question of counsel.

14 MR. LUKIC: I -- I can read the rest.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No. Counsel in that case was referring to his

16 testimony that day earlier. So I don't know what the witness said in

17 that case. This is only a quotation in a question put to the witness.

18 MR. LUKIC: I can quote the answer.

19 The answer, I quote: "I explained that by the following" --

20 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what Judge Fluegge -- Judge Fluegge is

21 seeking the source of where the witness said that Seval Soro,

22 Mate Ivancic, Zulfo Veiz, Ekrem Tulek, and Refik Cankusic were taken out

23 in the second group. Where is that to be found in this transcript?

24 That's the question by Judge Fluegge.

25 MR. LUKIC: I can use the break to give you the exact reference

Page 8955

1 for that. But I'm -- that -- it is in that transcript.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But to put it that way to this witness is really

3 confusing, and therefore it would be much more appropriate if you put his

4 own evidence given in that case to the witness and then he can confirm or

5 disagree.

6 MR. LUKIC: I will do that, Your Honour, after the break.

7 May I continue.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You may.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Well, let us try and make this simple and short.

11 Did you see or did you hear the people from the other group when

12 they were taken out, or did you cover your head and your ears so you

13 couldn't hear or see the people from the second group who were taken out?

14 A. I -- I did see the men who were taken away, but there were

15 occasions where, as you described it, I was forced to close my ears and

16 eyes because I could not bear to hear the cries coming from the solitary

17 cells, but that did not last long.

18 Q. Very well. But I'm asking you about this specific situation

19 where the second group was being taken out.

20 A. Well, that's what my answer referred to.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. What did you see? What was it that you saw? Did you see when

24 they were being taken out? Did you see how far they took them away?

25 What is it that you could see or hear?

Page 8956

1 A. Well, of course I saw everything. They took them out and lined

2 them up outside the admin -- the administrative building, but when the

3 cries, when it was possible to hear the cries of the beatings because

4 they beat them there, I could not bear to listen to that, so I didn't.

5 Q. Did you see when that group was taken out of KP Dom?

6 A. No, nor could I see that. But they were never returned to

7 KP Dom.

8 Q. As you sit here today, do you remember that my colleague Bakrac

9 told you that you had added some names? And how did that come about?

10 Did you try and refresh your memory by talking to other detainees? Or is

11 it just your knowledge?

12 A. Well, of course, this is not all based on my knowledge alone.

13 Because there was an organisation of detainees that was active --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor.

15 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, that's quite a compound question

16 that it's not clear what's actually being asked of the witness. He first

17 asked if he remembered something Mr. Bakrac said. Then he says how did

18 that come about? Did you try to refresh your memory? Is that your

19 knowledge? It's not clear what question is being asked of the witness.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

21 MR. LUKIC: The answer is only about the knowledge.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Whether he knows about all of what you did put to

23 him. Is that ...

24 Let's ... yes, it is a rather compound question.

25 MR. LUKIC: I will -- I will cut it short.

Page 8957

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Is it correct that you talked with other

4 detainees about matters. You discussed them and that the knowledge that

5 you are telling us about here is not yours alone?

6 A. Well, this is based on my knowledge, 99 per cent. About 1

7 per cent of the knowledge, I derived from other people, and that had to

8 do with the arrangements of these groups and the names of the people who

9 were being taken out in groups.

10 Q. On page 27 of the transcript - and that's page 2959 of the

11 transcript itself - we need to look at lines 20 and 21.

12 Here, you talk about the third group. And, in line 20, you were

13 asked by my colleague Bakrac whether other detainees had helped you to

14 refresh your memory and you say, in line 21:

15 "No. No. Absolutely no one held me."

16 So what you've just told us is not correct.

17 A. Well, this was a generalised answer. I wasn't helped by anyone.

18 No one -- in the sense that no one dictated the list of the people who

19 were killed in KP Dom. They only helped me with the order of the groups

20 as they were taken out.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, it would be fair to read the next

22 question and answer to the witness too.

23 MR. LUKIC: Trust me, I have only up to line 21. But maybe we

24 can see it on the screen.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, indeed.

Page 8958

1 MR. LUKIC: Line 22 reads can:

2 "Q. You said that you made type written notes on the basis of

3 other detainees' memories as well.

4 "A. I made these notes in writing together with the other

5 detainees. As concerns dates, the dates of exchanges and other events, I

6 was not sure ..."

7 So we should see another page.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 MR. LUKIC: "... I was not sure of; I wasn't sure of their

10 dates."

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock.

12 At the same time, before we take a break, Ms. MacGregor, as

13 matters stand now, how much time would you need for re-examination?

14 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, I anticipate 15 to 20 minutes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: 15 to 20 minutes.

16 Mr. Lukic, how much time would you still need?

17 MR. LUKIC: I probably need one hour. And we have one day

18 available this week. Friday is free.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you one question, Mr. Lukic.

21 You earlier said five names were clearly wrong. What did you

22 mean by that? Is that these people that you established that they were

23 not detained or they were not -- their fate was not, as the witness said.

24 Or is it that they were placed in wrong groups or -- by the witness.

25 Which of the two did you refer to?

Page 8962

1 JUDGE ORIE: Many of us are using the Internet site of the

2 Tribunal which is by far easier for access to transcripts which are

3 public, so I fully understand what you are saying, Mr. Lukic. You'll

4 have an opportunity to further deal with the matter.

5 Please proceed at this moment.

6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. Thank you.

7 Can we now have 1D792 in e-court, page 37. Which is page 2969 of

8 the transcript from the Krnojelac case of the 13th of February, 2001.

9 Q. In line 25, when you speak of the groups, you say, and I will

10 read it in English:

11 "A. [In English] I saw people being taken out and I knew what had

12 happened to those ..."

13 Then we have to move to another page now. Actually, the second

14 one. Since that one before was blank.

15 And I quote again:

16 "... first group, and I absolutely lacked the courage to listen

17 to that again.

18 "Q. So after the first group, you did not hear anything, is it

19 merely your assumption that the same thing happened as with the first

20 group?

21 "A. Absolutely."

22 [Interpretation] Do you accept that part of your testimony today?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In your statement, you described the first group. What I find

25 unclear is that you said that they were being beaten up in there, that

Page 8963

1 you saw them being carried out in blankets, and then that you heard shots

2 after they were taken out. All of this can be found in your 1995

3 statement, page 8, paragraph 2 of the English version; page 8,

4 paragraph 3 of the B/C/S version. This is P982.

5 This is my question: In your view, were -- did these people who

6 were in the first group succumb to the beatings, or were they killed

7 outside of the main building?

8 A. I think that they succumbed to the beatings, and after they left

9 the rooms where they were beaten, they were probably also shot. If there

10 were nine person, you'd always hear nine shots.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You're asking about the view of the witness and what

12 he now he says that what he thinks. Let's stick to the facts. Let's

13 stick to the facts and let's ask him what he observed, what he knows.

14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. [Interpretation] In your view, it was the guards who participated

16 in the killings, and it was always the same guards; right?

17 A. Well, the ones that I could recognise were guards. Whether

18 somebody else participated in this as well is something I don't know.

19 Q. You say that some of the bodies were also exhumed.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I'm asking you about the second, third, and fourth groups now.

22 Is it not correct that you do not know because you did not observe who

23 was killed in what manner?

24 A. My assumption is that they were killed by being beaten.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's resist to assume all kind of things.

Page 8964

1 And if you would refrain, as you did again, Mr. Lukic, asking "in your

2 view." You're eliciting opinion. What the witness can tell us, let him

3 tell it. What he thinks and concludes is, at this moment, not relevant.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Just for you to know, it is not that the Chamber

6 says what you think is wrong or right, but the Chamber will establish

7 what happened on the basis of factual knowledge of the witnesses, and

8 then, later on, you'll find out whether your thoughts are the same as the

9 conclusions the Chamber will draw.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

11 Q. We established your knowledge about these killings. I'd like to

12 go back to you personally now.

13 Let's briefly discuss the times that you were beaten in the

14 KP Dom.

15 In your first statement that from 1995 you say that you were

16 beaten up twice. In the second statement you said that you were beaten

17 three times. In the trial against Krnojelac, you said that you were

18 beaten four times.

19 A. Yes. And that is correct: Four times.

20 Q. So, in this case, what you stated in the Krnojelac case is not --

21 is correct rather than what you stated in your statement.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness repeat his answer, please.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we invite the witness to repeat his

24 answer, Ms. MacGregor.

25 MS. MacGREGOR: I don't want to belabour the issue, but he's just

Page 8965

1 said what you stated in the Krnojelac case is correct. There is a

2 significant chunk of testimony about the beatings in general in that

3 testimony, and anticipating the line of this questioning, I think it's

4 important that it's very clear what the witness is actually confirming

5 that he said before versus what he said today.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Now could you please -- well, perhaps you rephrase

7 the question.

8 What apparently is the case - and I am addressing both parties

9 now - that there are inconsistencies in the details about names and

10 events, et cetera, et cetera. If the parties agree on that, we can just

11 simply ask the witness what explains that instead of spending half an

12 hour or more on establishing such inconsistencies or contradictions or

13 incompleteness. I mean, if the parties would agree on the differences

14 then we could keep things far shorter. Now you're saying we need all the

15 details.

16 If you would sit together with Mr. Lukic and say, Well, looking

17 at it, it is obvious that this is it what the witness did, that is what

18 the witness did, then you can put it as such to him, ask for further

19 comments on it, and then move on, instead of spending days and days --

20 no, no, I'm exaggerating, Mr. Lukic. Considerable time on these matters

21 to be established.

22 Could the parties keep this in mind and could you rephrase your

23 lasts question, Mr. Lukic, and put it to the witness.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness said that the information

25 that he was the beaten up four times is correct.

Page 8966

1 Q. Let me put this to you. The third time that you were beaten,

2 according to you, was -- actually, when was that you were beaten up for

3 the third time?

4 A. In November.

5 Q. Why?

6 A. Because I had sewn socks out of sheets.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Can the counsel switch on the microphone.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at your 1996 statement.

9 That's P983.

10 In both these versions, it is on page 3. Now it is marked as

11 paragraph 7.

12 And you say:

13 "So many things happened in -- at KP Dom during my detention that

14 it didn't seem important to mention this. All the time the prisoners

15 were punished and locked into solitary confinement, even for every minor

16 point. For instance, when the prisoners Safet Avdic, Rasim Hanjalic, and

17 Ibrahim Kafedzic made socks out of blankets they were punished."

18 On this occasion, were you, too, punished.

19 A. Well, I don't see what the problem is here. They were punished

20 first and then I was punished later.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You talk about this in your statement.

24 A. Well, yes, I described them but I did not mention my own case in

25 this -- for the first time in this statement.

Page 8967

1 Q. So what is in the statement is not correct. Rather, what is

2 correct is what you said in court.

3 A. Well, the statement is correct. Rasim Safet Avdic and

4 Ibrahim Kafedzic, they were the first to be taken out because of this

5 act.

6 Q. So you talk about other people but you don't mention yourself

7 while discussing -- while talking about the same event.

8 A. Well, you do have this correction that was added to my statement.

9 I did explain this, and I said that then I did the same thing and then I

10 was punished, and that was on the following day.

11 Q. Very well. Milun Miljanovic -- it says Miljun in the statement?

12 A. Well, it is Milun.

13 Q. Milun Miljanovic, he was the deputy to Dragan Gagovic, the chief

14 of police in Foca; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You saw him issuing orders to soldiers.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you know who those soldiers were?

19 A. I knew one or two of them. They were sappers.

20 Q. Do you know what authorised the deputy SUP commander to command

21 the army?

22 A. Milun Miljanovic was in that same function before the war. He

23 was the deputy police commander. Now what his role was -- this was

24 before the war, now what his role was during the war, what his post was,

25 I don't know. I heard that he was Gagovic's deputy, but how it was that

Page 8968

1 he found himself in this group of sappers at the KP Dom, I really don't

2 know anything about that.

3 Q. I would now like briefly to refer you to the part where you

4 cleaned the rooms that people had left from. Do you recall when this

5 happened? When was it that they cleaned these rooms?

6 A. I don't know what rooms you mean because I had to sweep or clean

7 many rooms.

8 Q. Well, it's about that case where people in June left those rooms.

9 We can take a look at your statement. That's the 1995 statement. P982.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 10 in the B/C/S version,

11 the first paragraph, and the tenth page in English, the first

12 paragraph as well.

13 Obviously we need paragraph 47. In my version that's on page 10

14 in B/C/S, but here I see that we need page 9. That's probably the last

15 paragraph on that page.

16 Q. Here, you state, and you see that they talk about taking away the

17 four groups. And you say:

18 "About a week after the incidents, a guard called me out and

19 ordered me to clean the room where the people had been beaten to death.

20 I saw the floor was -- in that room was covered with blood."

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see 1D792, please.

25 That's in e-court. Again, that will be the Krnojelac transcript of 13

Page 8969

1 February 2001. We need page 41 in e-court. And the transcript page is

2 2973.

3 Q. In line 5 toward the end of that sentence, you say:

4 [In English] "I told I already said that I cleaned those rooms in

5 August. I don't remember the date.

6 "Q. So it was two months after all this had happened?

7 "A. Yes, correct."

8 A. Yes, yes. It is the month of August. I didn't hear you saying

9 that it was these seven days later. But it is correct that it was in

10 August.

11 Q. Here, you were asked -- so it was two months after all this had

12 happened? That's when you cleaned that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is this -- so was it two months after the incident or seven days

15 after the incident?

16 A. Well, it was two months after the incident. So this all happened

17 in late June and early July. So it's not really a full two months.

18 Maybe a month and a half.

19 Q. So what is in your statement that only seven days this elapsed

20 between the incidents and your cleaning, that's incorrect?

21 A. No, no, that's not correct. The statement is specific about when

22 this happened and I stand by it.

23 Q. Let's see what the statement says.

24 [In English]now I do have the reference for -- Judge Fluegge

25 asked for me. It's in 1D793, e-court page 95, line 13, where this

Page 8970

1 witness as members of the second group mentioned Seval Soro,

2 Mate Ivancic, Zulfo Veiz, Ekrem Tulek, and Refik Cankusic.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: With the addition that he said:

4 "I'm not sure I can remember all of them."

5 MR. LUKIC: Yes, because he gave only five names -- five names

6 out of nine.

7 [Interpretation] Please bear with me.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I believe Judge Fluegge said I can't be --

9 remember all of them. Not "I can" remember all of them.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's hereby corrected.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, I thought you would put that to the

12 witness and then put your question. Which you did in relation to the

13 question you cited earlier.

14 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, I just got data on my question list, so I

15 don't have the transcript in front of me.

16 JUDGE ORIE: No. But you were invited, when Judge Fluegge raised

17 the issue, to put that to the witness and not to refer him to an earlier

18 portion of his testimony which he was not aware of -- at least the text

19 was not, so to put it in detail on all the matters.

20 MR. LUKIC: Yes, but, yeah the system didn't work. Obviously it

21 started to work --

22 JUDGE ORIE: The system --

23 MR. LUKIC: -- but I didn't got that [Overlapping speakers].

24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, here you said -- which page was it?

25 MR. LUKIC: It's page -- it's our 1D793.

Page 8971

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 MR. LUKIC: It's page 94 in e-court.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 MR. LUKIC: Line -- line 13.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And this is on the screen now. We had it. Yes.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Microphone not activated]

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We had it on the screen and this is -- this would

8 be now the appropriate basis for putting the question to the witness that

9 he, indeed, mentioned these names. Now it's -- it has appeared now.

10 It's back at line 13.

11 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Yes. And now should I read it, Your Honour?

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, you did it already.

13 MR. LUKIC: Okay.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And we all can see the names, but now it's a

15 quotation of his answer --

16 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- in that case.

18 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And now you should put a -- use this

20 information --

21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- put it to the witness and [Overlapping

23 speakers] ...

24 MR. LUKIC: And that would be my last question. Thank you for

25 your help.

Page 8972

1 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, on page 2862 of the Krnojelac transcript,

2 in your testimony, you said in line 13 -- in line 12 there is a question

3 that was put to you. Or rather, let's begin with line 10.

4 "Q. [In English] How many were called out on this occasion?

5 "A. Nine again.

6 "Q. And do you recall who was called out?

7 "A. Seval Soro, Mate Ivancic, Zulfo Veiz, Ekrem Tulek, Mandzo --

8 no, not Mandzo. Cankusic, Refik. I'm not sure I can remember all of

9 them."

10 [Interpretation] so were these men in the second group or some

11 other men? Can you recall at all, as you sit here.

12 A. No, these were not the ones. Ivancic -- Mate Ivancic was in the

13 third group.

14 Q. Very well. You are now cross-checking this by comparing it with

15 the list that you have before you, the statement. Do you remember these

16 names as you sit here today?

17 A. Well, I do remember that they were taken out.

18 Q. Very well. Thank you.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone -- well, that's -- well, then we would

21 not have on the -- on the transcript that this concludes your --

22 MR. LUKIC: Yes. This is the conclusion of our

23 cross-examination.

24 JUDGE ORIE: That was missing on the -- missing on the transcript

25 now.