1 Thursday, 21 February 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
7 IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We have a problem with the audio.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's not -- let me see. Yes, it seems to
11 be ... I'm not quite sure.
12 Madam Registrar, could you speak a few more words to see whether
13 I receive ...
14 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Can you hear me now?
15 JUDGE ORIE: I can hear you now. Not very loudly, but I'll
17 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There are no preliminaries, as I understand.
19 Therefore, the witness may be escorted in the courtroom.
20 Meanwhile, if the Prosecution could file the report on an
21 incident which took place last week in closed session, it's invited to do
23 MR. GROOME: We do have that, Your Honour, and we will file it
24 later on today.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Groome.
1 Further, I noticed that, on the basis of a decision given
2 yesterday by the Trial Chamber, the Defence would have additional time to
3 prepare because there would be no session on -- no hearing on Friday.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Now if you are efficient today - and I'm addressing
6 both parties - then you might enjoy that advantage. If it goes, as I
7 read it went yesterday at the end of the session, then you might have to
8 be in court on Friday anyhow to finish the witnesses still on our list
9 for this week.
10 Good morning, Witness. Please be seated, Mr. Brennskag. I
11 apologise for mispronouncing your name.
12 First of all, I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by
13 the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony,
14 and Mr. Stojanovic will now continue his cross-examination.
15 WITNESS: PER ANTON BRENNSKAG [Resumed]
16 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, could it be a little bit louder here.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There is apparently -- it must be ...
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Is your audio better now?
20 THE WITNESS: It's a little bit too weak.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Is it better now?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we can continue. Mine is fine as well.
24 Mr. Stojanovic.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. If you remember, we left off
3 with a document yesterday which is number 65 ter 10158. It's a document
4 under seal, and I would advise, out of abundance of caution, for it not
5 to be broadcast. Can we please have page 4 in the B/C/S and page 3 in
6 the English. We need the next page in English, please.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I have no page in English at all.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 3.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I have two pages in B/C/S.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So page 3 in the English. Thank
12 Q. Sir, if you recall, this is a document entitled: "Report on
13 on-site forensic investigation." We're talking about the incident which
14 happened on Geteova Street, number 12, on 22nd June 1995.
15 If you remember, I asked you yesterday if you remember that, on
16 that occasion, it was established that the projectile came from the west,
17 270 degrees, azimuth?
18 A. It's stated in the document in front of me, yes.
19 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at the same document under 65 ter,
20 only we need page 9 in B/C/S and 8 in English. We also looked at it
21 yesterday. It was a report on the forensic investigation of the traces
22 of explosion conducted on the 17th of July, 1995.
23 Let's first look at page 7 in the English, because, here, we only
24 have signatures. Thank you.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you give us the 65 ter number of the document,
1 please, Mr. Stojanovic.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's the same number,
3 65 ter 10158. Thank you.
4 Q. Now, in this report, there's something different stated, and
5 there's a different opinion expressed. And they say that the direction
6 from which the projectile came corresponds to the azimuth of
7 250 plus/minus 10 degrees, and that was established on the
8 22nd of June, 1995, during an on-site investigation.
9 Now my question is this: Do you have any recollection of that
10 azimuth value of the projectile, according to what you found out at the
11 scene, was 270 west, as stated in the forensic report, or 250,
12 plus/minus 10, as written here in this report?
13 A. I see what it is stated in this report in front of me. Yesterday
14 also I said what I can remember from other report that I have never seen
15 afterwards, and I referred to my statement on -- from the 10th -- from
16 2010, October 2010. And, as far as I know, we agreed that the projectile
17 was coming from west.
18 Q. Can we please now look at Exhibit P992, paragraph 44. That's
19 this witness's statement.
20 Among other things, you say in this paragraph the following:
21 "At the place of impact, we were unable to decide where the
22 modified air bomb had come from. What I'm trying to say is that we were
23 unable to establish the point of origin of the modified air bomb."
24 My question is: Does this refresh your memory; and during the
25 investigation were you able, at any point, to establish an accurate
1 direction from which the air -- modified air bomb arrived?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, would you, in your question, please
3 make a clear distinction between the direction of origin and the origin
4 of the projectile. That is two -- are two different things. So,
5 therefore, for the witness to say, Does this refresh your memory, when
6 you're talking about something different, doesn't assist.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. So can you tell us now, in more precise term, if your memory is
10 better after looking at these documents, why did you have a problem in
11 deciding the origin of this projectile?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Again, origin is from which location it is fired,
13 Mr. Stojanovic. Direction of origin is from which direction it flew in
14 when -- before impact.
15 You can't just deal with the two as if they were the same. And I
16 tried to explain that to you after your last question, but you may not
17 have understood.
18 So please, first, think about your next question, and then put it
19 to the witness.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I know the
21 difference. I was just using the terminology from paragraph 44 drafted
22 by this witness. And I asked him to explain why he said:
23 "We were not able to decide where it had come from."
24 What were they not able to decide?
25 JUDGE ORIE: The point of origin, as is clearly explained in the
1 statement, what we now have. The witness has testified today it came
2 from the west. We have one report which says 270 degrees azimuth which
3 is perfectly west. Then we have another report which says 250 plus or
4 minus 10 which is almost west.
5 Now, please, put the next question such that the Chamber is
6 assisted by the information you are eliciting from this witness. And
7 don't start explaining again. Please follow the guidance.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please, then, look at
9 65 ter document 10158, page 11. It's a map.
10 Thank you. Can we please zoom in the middle part of the map, to
11 the right where the point of landing of this projectile is marked,
12 according to the report.
13 Q. Can you, on the basis of this map, confirm whether, according to
14 what you established, the location was precisely plotted in the map with
15 regard to the direction from which the shell came, which is, as
16 explained, this blackened horizontal line leading towards Stup?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- if you give the Chamber a map, if you have a
18 place plotted, it's not very clear here, but I think I've -- the problem
19 is a bit that everything is black and white. But let's just assume that
20 we have found the plotted place. Then to draw lines at 270 degrees,
21 every child in the second year of primary school could do it, and,
22 therefore, please trust that the Chamber is able to do it as well.
23 I mean, 270 degrees is 270 degrees. 250 degrees is 250 degrees.
24 It's -- please put questions to the witness which can assist the Chamber.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Sir, do you agree, by looking at this map, that the area of
2 Rajlovac, a part which is also from the west from the place where the
3 shell landed?
4 JUDGE ORIE: First, do you find the place, Rajlovac?
5 THE WITNESS: I don't see exactly the name Rajlovac. I never
6 seen this map before, and the point where the impact is, it can be fairly
7 correct, and I only remember from our investigation that we stated it was
8 coming from west.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
10 Now, Mr. Stojanovic, you apparently you find Rajlovac. No one --
11 at least the witness has not found it yet.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,
13 please look at the central part of the map, and you'll find it in the
14 upper central part, the name Rajlovac.
15 Q. And, sir, you mentioned it in your statement as well.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have a -- I -- I -- we see it -- if you
17 could, please, Witness, have a look, Rajlovac at the very top of the map,
18 approximately in the middle, to the right of what seems to be a bending
19 road. Have you found it?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, I found it. And I know where Rajlovac railway
21 station it.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the point of impact, it's not entirely
23 clear. Is that Alipasino Polje, that area, Mr. -- the marking is not
24 very clear. Could you also ... yes.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Just for my understanding, Mr. Stojanovic,
2 from approximately the place where the impact is marked, it's very
3 difficult to see on this map, but Rajlovac where it is written, seems to
4 be approximately at -- well, north -- north-west. If it is west, then
5 you have to provide me with better maps, because from what I can see now,
6 it seems to be north-west.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Which is at 315 azimuth.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we agree that it's
10 north-west. And also that it's 250 plus/minus 10. When we received this
11 map --
12 JUDGE ORIE: I do not -- I do not agree with that. North-west is
13 not 250 plus or minus 10. 250 is south -- slightly south of west, and
14 coming close from the south to westerly direction. What I see here is,
15 rather, north-west, which is ...
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's a translation
17 issue. I said 290.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, north-west, Mr. Stojanovic, is not 290. As I
19 just said, it's 315; because the difference between 270 and 360 is
20 90 degrees, so you have to add 45 to 270 to arrive at north-west.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Can we look at 65 ter document 10158, page 28, and page 27 in the
23 English version.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Sir, this is a statement taken from one of the eye-witnesses of
2 the flight and the impact of the shell. In this statement, the witness
3 says that at one point he heard a buzzing sound coming from the direction
4 of Ahatovici and Rajlovac. Shortly after that, he heard a loud
5 detonation as a result of the explosion on Geteova Street, number 12, and
6 wounded the witness.
7 All I'm asking you now is: After you have seen these documents,
8 do you allow for a possibility that this shell had came from
9 northwesterly direction? Whereas, we say that it came from the direction
10 of Brijesce Brdo?
11 A. Again, I have never seen this part of the document, and I'm not
12 sure of the time. It's dated 1715, the 22nd of June. And I'm not sure
13 this is the same impact that we are talking about. Because, as far as I
14 remember, it could be -- it was earlier when we investigated. But I'm
15 not sure.
16 But I can -- directly to the question, I can't answer. I -- I
17 don't have any information that can -- that I can confirm this.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am going to
20 offer document 65 ter 10158 to be entered into evidence as a Defence
22 MR. SHIN: No objections, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10158 receives number D240,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: D240 is admitted into evidence.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. And I will finish with the questions relating to your observation
4 of the overflight of the shell that hit the RTV building on the
5 22nd June 1995. That's paragraph 52 of your statement. And let me put a
6 very brief question to you.
7 Would we be right if we say that you saw the flight of this
8 projectile going over the PTT building and landed by hitting the RTV
10 A. That day I was -- I was in the morning I was in the observation
11 post, OP-4, and we observed the projectile with a smoke-tail. And
12 afterwards, we registrated an impact in the TV building. If it was
13 directly across the PTT building, or close to or near it, it's difficult
14 to me to -- to recognise now, but it looks like it did, yes.
15 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now have 1D796 in
17 e-court. It's a statement of an observer called Thomas Hansen.
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at page 3,
20 where the witness, who, according to his own words, was there with
21 another observer in the vicinity of the TV building says:
22 "I was informed by an UNMO who had seen the shelling of the TV
23 building that this particular bomb that impacted the TV building was
24 fired from the BiH side. Another UNMO who heard the bomb told me that
25 the bomb only flew for a short period, so that fitted with the findings
1 of the first UNMO that the bomb was fired from the BH-held territory."
2 Then he goes on to say that he sent his report about this events
3 to his superiors by secure means.
4 Q. I'm asking you this: Can you tell the Chamber from which
5 position was this modified bomb, as you call it, was fired?
6 A. Your Honour, I have never seen this report during my time in --
7 in Bosnia. I was shown it first here. I think it was in 2010. And it's
8 difficult for me to discuss another UNMO's observations about it. I'm
9 only sure what I was observing from my observation post, but --
10 Observation Post 4.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could I just briefly go back to
12 the -- the previous issue we dealt with and which led to some confusion
13 among the Judges.
14 You showed us a black and white map saying that the point of
15 impact has been marked there. Who marked that? Where does that document
16 come from? It may be that I missed something, but ... you remember, the
17 black and white --
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, if I may, just
19 one moment. We'll respond straight away, and then, with your leave,
20 we'll return to this one. 10158 would be the document number. And could
21 I please have page 10 of that document; 10158 and page 10 of this
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Why -- it was not clear to me that it was part
24 of a -- of a -- of a broader document.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, yes.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
3 Q. I shall go back to the question that I've already put to you.
4 Sir, after having seen this statement of Mr. Hansen's -- and
5 could we please have that in e-court once again; that is, document 1D796,
6 page 3 of the document.
7 Could you tell me the following: When you say that this modified
8 bomb came from the direction of Ilidza, could you tell us what the
9 distance of the firing point was from the RTV building?
10 A. I can't remember the -- the exact distance between the Ilidza
11 area and the TV building, so I -- I need a map with a certain scale to --
12 to figure it out.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, I
14 would like to tender this document, and then I shall also be tendering
15 the map of the area.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin.
17 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours, we would object because this is a
18 statement and that -- neither comports with the requirements under 92 bis
19 or 92 ter. Furthermore, the passage that has been cited refers to
20 another unnamed UNMO. This -- this is perhaps a matter the Defence can
21 take up later.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic. First issue is whether this is a
23 statement which was -- is unfit to be admitted, in view of Rules 92 bis,
24 92 ter. Could you first respond to that.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a statement
1 that was given to us by the Prosecution. It was obtained by the
2 Prosecution. It was signed by the witness who gave it, and all the
3 cautions are there on page 4. And this statement was used in the
4 Milosevic case. It was in evidence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the case law of this Tribunal is
6 that if you want to have admitted into evidence a statement of a witness
7 which was taken for the purposes of this Tribunal, that you then need the
8 attestations, as Rule 92 bis and 92 ter require. Where are the
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have the
11 statement in the form in which it was given to us.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Attestations, it means if you disclose a document,
13 it doesn't mean that it is already fit to be admitted into evidence. We
14 have, I take it, hundred, if not thousands of statements, but only if you
15 want to introduce them into evidence, you need the attestations by the
16 witness taken by an officer assigned for these purposes or by any other
17 authorised person. These are the Rules of this Tribunal.
18 Therefore, that it comes from the Prosecution doesn't seem to be
19 an answer. That it is a statement doesn't seem to be an answer to my
20 question either. Do you have any attestation? If not, you have to
21 consider whether there are ways to have this document admitted into
22 evidence, if you think it to be important.
23 Admission is denied.
24 Please proceed.
25 Admission is denied. Please proceed.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. We don't have
2 any different statement. We took --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, first of all, the decision has
4 already been taken, so if you want to further think about it, you can do
5 it whenever it pleases you to do so.
6 Second - but that's another matter - the question you put to this
7 witness was totally useless. Why is it, because it is stated here only
8 fired from Ilidza, which is a -- well, not a huge area, but at least it
9 does not give much clue of where exactly it came from. And therefore to
10 say, What is the distance from here to the area of Belgium. That is also
11 a question. One answer could be 600 kilometres. Another answer could be
12 150 kilometres, depending on where you are in Belgium.
13 Your question came down to the same. Therefore, the question
14 didn't assist us, and the decision has been taken that not through this
15 witness, in this way, you can have this document admitted.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Then I
18 shall conclude my cross-examination of this witness for today.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
20 Mr. Shin, is there any need for re-examination?
21 MR. SHIN: Yes, just very quickly. Perhaps five minutes, a
22 little bit more.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. Well, forget about a little bit more
24 and think about the five-minutes.
25 MR. SHIN: Yes.
1 Re-examination by Mr. Shin:
2 Q. Mr. Brennskag, my first question for you is you had stated in
3 paragraph 52 of your amalgamated statement regarding the TV building that
4 you had observed the modified air bomb coming from Ilidza. Today, when
5 you explained that it came from the west, in your mind, is that what you
6 mean, that it came from Ilidza as stated in your amalgamated statement?
7 A. No, when I said west, it was talking about the first -- the --
8 the 22nd of June in Alipasino Polje, as I understood. The TV building,
9 I -- I was in OP and we saw it came from Ilidza area.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Brennskag. And going to that Alipasino Polje
11 incident, if we turn to paragraph 45 of your amalgamated statement, we
12 see in the third sentence:
13 "Crater analysis showed that this air bomb had come from the
14 direction of Ilidza."
15 Do you stand by that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Turning now to --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just ask you the following: If you say it
19 came from Ilidza, that is a rather imprecise observation. Would you
20 agree with that, because Ilidza could be the north edge of Ilidza, the
21 southern edge of Ilidza.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, of course. We couldn't state exactly from
23 where in Ilidza area it was coming. But it was from the direction from
24 Ilidza area.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Which still gives quite a range --
1 THE WITNESS: From the investigation's team point of view, yes.
2 But as I stated, it was confirmed from my fellow UNMO observers that was
3 in the observation post at the same time and reported the -- the
4 improvised projectile, it came from Ilidza area, BSA area.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Because they had seen that. Is that how I have to
6 understand --
7 THE WITNESS: They saw this and reported it, yes, as far as I
9 JUDGE ORIE: And you can see it because it leaves a trace in the
10 area visible.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. SHIN:
15 Q. And my last question, Mr. Brennskag, just a point of
16 clarification: Yesterday you were asked about the intensity of the
17 fighting in June of 1995. You had responded that there were around 150
18 impacts inside Sarajevo. If we turn to paragraph 31 of your amalgamated
19 statement that figure of 150 impacts, that -- you indicate that was
20 within a 24-hour period. Just so we're clear, would that be correct that
21 your talking about that volume within a 24-hour period?
22 A. Yes, assumption that that is within 24 hours.
23 Q. Okay, thank you very much.
24 MR. SHIN: No further questions, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Shin.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Moloto has a question for you.
3 Questioned by the Court:
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Brennskag can you have a look at your
5 statement, that is P992, at paragraph 2. There's been quite a bit of
6 talk about direction and origin of fire.
7 If you look at the last sentence in your -- in that paragraph 2,
8 it says:
9 "Through crater analysis it is possible to determine a
10 projectile's point of origin, direction of fire, and the type of
11 projectile that was used."
12 Now, right through your statement, you have not been able to give
13 us a point of origin. You've given us direction. Do you have any
14 comment to make on that sentence?
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: With respect to point of origin.
17 A. Yes. Could you please say again which para.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Paragraph 2, very last sentence.
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it correct that you are able to determine point
21 of origin through crater analysis?
22 A. Normally, yes, with ballistic missiles.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: But don't you need to know another variation which
24 is the charge?
25 A. Yeah. But you could -- normally if you have the -- the -- if you
1 could -- if it was a rest of the projectile, and you could estimate angle
2 from the -- then you can estimate the point of origin.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I would like to ask a follow-up question of
6 Would you agree with me that you fire a -- for example, a mortar,
7 you have the same angle of descent, you have the same direction of the
8 origin of fire, that, depending on the propelling charge used, it could
9 have come from various locations, all on that same line of the direction
10 of the origin of fire?
11 A. It's --
12 JUDGE ORIE: You also could do it in a different way.
13 If I'm sitting here, when I'm firing a mortar from here, if I use
14 zero charge, or a zero plus four, or a zero plus six charge, the shell
15 will land in a different place. Propelling charge, not explosive charge
16 of the body of the projectile but a propelling charge used.
17 Are you familiar with that --
18 A. Yes, I'm familiar with that. Always, the projectile must have
19 a -- a -- what do you call it ... I can't find the English word.
20 JUDGE ORIE: If you describe it, perhaps we could assist you.
21 A. I -- I mean, as far as I remember, it's -- should be possible to
22 estimate the point of -- not exactly but the point of origin, if you
23 could see the -- the elevation angle, the projectile was hitting the
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The angle of descent.
1 A. Yes, angle of descent.
2 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]... yes. I just --
3 A. Because it always has a ballistic curve.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 A. And the ballistic curve, you could find out with all the -- is --
6 descent angle or elevation angle from where it was fired.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm afraid - and I just put that to you that
8 many experts take a different position, to be quite honest - almost all
9 experts take a different position. Meaning that if you know under what
10 angle of descent a projectile has landed, then it depends on the firing
11 charge when it was fired from nearby, or whether it is fired from further
12 away with more propelling charge or even from -- again, further away with
13 a stronger propelling charge.
14 A. Okay.
15 JUDGE ORIE: But I just wanted in all fairness to put that to
16 you, that your opinion and that it comes down to an opinion, I would
17 rather say, might not be [Overlapping speakers] ...
18 A. [Overlapping speakers] ... Your Honour, I'm not an expert in it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 Any questions triggered by the questions put by the Bench?
21 If not, Mr. Brennskag -- yes. Mr. Brennskag, this then concludes
22 your testimony in this Court. I would like to thank you very much for --
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- coming to The Hague and for having answered all
25 the questions that were put to you. I wish you a safe return home again.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 JUDGE ORIE: For the next witness to be called, as far as
3 protective measures are concerned, Mr. Groome.
4 MR. GROOME: I believe there are protective measures of pseudonym
5 and image distortion.
6 JUDGE ORIE: That's all.
7 MR. GROOME: Nothing more than that, I don't think, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear. I just want to be certain about
9 it. Then I wonder what would be the best way to proceed. Whether we
10 should take an early break and then start with the testimony of the
11 witness. And then I think the assessment, Prosecution half an hour?
12 Yes. And then, Mr. Stojanovic, will you deal with the witness?
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. My colleague
14 Mr. Lukic is going to examine the witness. And our assessment was two
15 and a half hours, I believe.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that may then be rather tight. If we cannot
17 make it today, then we'll have to continue tomorrow. If we are able
18 to -- to conclude the testimony of the witness today, the tomorrow's
19 session will be cancelled.
20 We take a break and we resume at 20 minutes to 11.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We briefly move into private session.
24 [Private session]
11 Page 9092 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 The witness has asked whether an accompanying person could be in
9 the courtroom when he gives his testimony. That request is granted. The
10 witness may be brought into the courtroom.
11 Further, I'm -- perhaps I should have asked Mr. Shin to be
12 present as well. But in relation to the previous witness,
13 Mr. Stojanovic, the Chamber would highly appreciate if the parties could
14 reach an agreement on -- let me see exactly what was the street name of
15 the street, at number 12 where the impact was. Let me just see.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Geteova, Your Honour, number 12.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The 22nd of June.
19 JUDGE ORIE: yes, Geteova. Yes, if the parties could agree where
20 that is and mark that, perhaps, on a map, because the Chamber was -- it
21 was very difficult to discern any marking on this black and white map
22 which we found in -- as part of a report.
23 MR. GROOME: If I could ask Mr. Stojanovic to be available to
24 meet Mr. Shin at the next break and hopefully we can resolve that today.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, finally, there was an issue ...
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: There was an issue about submissions in relation to
3 Witness RM055. There is e-mail exchanges -- there are e-mail exchanges
4 which have some substance. Therefore, the Chamber would invite the
5 parties, first of all, to verify whether in every respect the Prosecution
6 and the Defence, in their e-mails, are referring to the same documents.
7 And after that has been verified, then to file the content of the
8 e-mails, and the Chamber will then decide. It is about associated
9 exhibits in relation to Witness RM055.
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Traldi.
13 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honour, just one brief preliminary matter
14 regarding this witness, which is, yesterday we informed the parties and
15 the Chamber that his support person would only be available until 1.30.
16 We've been told that the Defence may need their full two and a half
17 hours. The support person, while it is difficult for him, is willing to
18 stay until 2.15, if absolutely necessary.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll -- we were informed about that.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Witness. I do understand that there's
22 no need for protective measures, so, therefore, we'll call you by your
23 own name, Mr. Karagic.
24 Before you give evidence, the Rules will require that you make a
25 solemn declaration. The text is now handed out to you. Could you please
1 make that solemn declaration.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Good morning,
3 Your Honours. Good morning to everyone.
4 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
5 and nothing but the truth.
6 WITNESS: NERMIN KARAGIC
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Karagic.
9 Mr. Karagic, you are accompanied by a person of trust to you.
10 Madam Registrar, may I take it that the name of the person of trust
11 accompanying the witness has been -- is somewhere in the record or
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I was not informed about the name
14 of the support person.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you -- could you please, at any moment
16 today, just write down your personal details and then give it to the
17 Registrar. Your role is mainly - and I'm addressing you - well, ... is
18 the person of trust, is he able to follow the proceedings? I have some
19 doubts. Is he on the right channel? Could you please check.
20 Could I just verify whether can you hear me in a language you
22 No. Could the -- could the audio be checked for the person of
23 trust. Whatever solution, but -- so that he can hear me.
24 Well, is it not the volume? We all had problems this morning
25 with channel and volume.
1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?
3 I'm not addressing you at this moment, Mr. Karagic.
4 But I'm addressing you. Can you now hear me? Yes. Yes. Thank
5 you. Your role is limited to giving the witness comfortable feeling to
6 be in this court, knowing that you are nearby, and that you hear and see
7 everything that happens in this courtroom. Your role is not to intervene
8 in any way. That is clear to you, I see. You're nodding.
9 Mr. Traldi, are you ready?
10 MR. TRALDI: [Microphone not activated]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karagic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Traldi.
12 Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution and you will find him to your
14 Examination by Mr. Traldi:
15 Q. Good morning, sir. Could you state your name for the record.
16 A. Nermin Karagic.
17 Q. And I understand this morning you've chosen to testify publicly.
18 If there's any particular topic you wish we go into private for, would
19 you inform us and inform the Chamber.
20 And, sir, if you say your answers out loud, it will be best for
21 the record.
22 A. Yes. It's clear, I understand.
23 Q. Then I'd ask the Court Officer to call 65 ter 28480 to our
24 screens. And, sir, do you recall testifying before this Tribunal before,
25 in the Stakic trial?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. And did you review the transcript of your testimony in that
3 previous trial, in preparation to testify today, and in a language that
4 you understand?
5 A. Yes, I read it in its entirety. And I also listened to the audio
6 recording and read a hard copy as well.
7 Q. And now that you have sworn to tell the truth today, do you
8 affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of your previous testimony?
9 A. I can confirm.
10 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I'd tendered 65 ter 28480 into
11 evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter.
12 MR. LUKIC: No objections.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28480 receives number P998,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: P998 is admitted into evidence.
17 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, there are two associated
18 exhibits: 65 ter 13124 and 13172. 65 ter 13124 and 13172, both of which
19 I'd tendered at this time.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic. No objections.
21 Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 13124 receives number P999, and document
23 13172 receives number P1000.
24 JUDGE ORIE: P999 and P1000 are admitted into evidence.
25 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I'll now briefly summarise the
1 witness's evidence for the public.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Have you explained to the witness the purpose of
4 MR. TRALDI:
5 Q. And, sir, you understand that this is not evidence, simply a
6 summary for the benefit of the public?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do.
8 MR. TRALDI: And I apologise to the court reporter because of
9 this morning's proceedings. They don't have a copy so I'll try to be
10 very, very slow.
11 Nermin Karagic survived massacres at Ljubija stadium and Kipe
12 mine charged at schedules A 6.7 and A 6.8 of the indictment. And that
13 completes the public summary.
14 And I will have a few brief questions about the witness's
15 evidence now.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
17 MR. TRALDI:
18 Q. Sir, before we discuss what happened in 1992 I want to address
19 one ancillary matter. Were you arrested for driving under the influence
20 of alcohol in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1999?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And were you convicted of that as well?
23 A. Yes, I was, although I was not drunk.
24 Q. And -- and were you injured when you were arrested?
25 A. Yes, I was beaten up.
1 Q. And did you first tell the Office of the Prosecutor about that in
2 October of last year, 2012?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And, finally, in this respect, you just affirmed that you told
5 the truth in your previous testimony. Do you intend to do so again
7 A. Yes, I will do so.
8 Q. Now I want to take you back to the summer of 1992. And on page 7
9 of Exhibit P998, you talk about going into hiding after the attack on
10 Hambarine. When did you first go into hide, if you remember?
11 A. I think that it's -- started at that time, that that was when I
12 started going into hiding.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be kind enough to move closer
14 to the mike. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you come a bit closer to the microphone. The
16 interpreters have difficulties in hearing you.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that it started at the
18 time when Hambarine was attacked, when I started hiding. Although, even
19 before that, I didn't dare go to town because I was tried -- I was trying
20 to evade being served call-up papers.
21 MR. TRALDI:
22 Q. And on page 9 of P998 you talk about trying with a group of
23 people to go to the free territory. Was that in July of 1992?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd ask that 65 ter 16502 be called to
1 our screens. It is a report dated 18 July 1992.
2 Q. And, sir, you talk about being captured when you tried to go to
3 the free territory. This document is dated 18 July 1992 and on page 2,
4 in both the English and B/C/S, it says that as of July 1992, there was no
5 large-scale combat between Serb forces and forces fighting against them.
6 I have only one focussed question about this. Were you aware of
7 any large-scale combat between the Serb army and Muslim forces in
8 Prijedor municipality around the time you were captured?
9 A. Yes, yes, I heard shells falling down on the day before I was
10 sent to Ljubija -- or, actually, it was on the same day. People were
11 calling each other, let's go into fighting, explosions were heard, and
12 then we were collected at that place and sent away to Ljubija.
13 Q. I have two questions about your answer. First, when you say yes,
14 you were aware of combat, were you aware of shelling by Serb forces, or
15 were you aware of combat between Serb forces that were fighting and
16 Muslim forces that were fighting against them?
17 A. Well, I am not aware of there being any Muslim forces. I just
18 heard the shells, and I heard them calling each other to go into combat.
19 But we didn't have any forces. Perhaps there may have been a small group
20 or two.
21 Q. And when you say -- my second question. When you say "I heard
22 them," did you hear Serbs calling each other to go into combat?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. And by this time, had people in your area of the Brdo region
25 already surrendered their weapons?
1 A. Well, yes.
2 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'd tender 65 ter 16502 as the next
3 public Prosecution exhibit.
4 MR. LUKIC: I didn't see that anything was asked from this
5 document. There were no questions to the witness from the document.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
7 MR. TRALDI: And I asked the witness specifically about whether
8 he could confirm material on page 2 of both the English and the B/C/S.
9 The Chamber has expressed a preference to have witnesses contextualise
10 documents and his comments are able to do that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would you object against it having bar tabled
12 in the context of the testimony of this witness, Mr. Lukic?
13 MR. LUKIC: If it is bar table then we'll deal with it but --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I'm asking you now whether you would have any
15 objection against it being bar tabled.
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
18 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... with this witness.
19 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
20 MR. LUKIC: He has nothing -- he has no knowledge about the
22 JUDGE ORIE: What -- I think the situation we find ourselves in
23 often is that a witness testifies about events which are described or are
24 dealt with in documents, even if the witness is not -- if he cannot
25 testify about the document, that, under those circumstances, we would not
1 wait with bar tabling the document but, since there is some connection,
2 to consider a document to be admitted from the bar table, which means not
3 through the witness. So, therefore, I did not fully understand your last
5 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, if it is bar tabled, I said we will deal
6 with the document through the bar table response. But we object to have
7 this document introduced through this witness.
8 JUDGE ORIE: My question now is whether since this deals directly
9 with portions of the evidence of the witness whether you would oppose
10 against, I would say, an advanced bar table request for admission at this
11 moment in relation to this document.
12 MR. LUKIC: We have to see the bar table motion, Your Honour, to
13 be able to respond to it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well ...
15 Mr. Traldi, is the way in which you tendered the document
16 important for you, or is it through the witness or bar tabled.
17 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'd be happy to make an oral
18 application now to tender the document from the bar table if it would
19 suit the Chamber.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we will consider the matter during the next
21 break. Madam Registrar, the document would be MFI'd under number ...
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 16502 receives P1001, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
24 Witness, don't be confused by all this. These are legal matters.
25 We'll now continue to hear your testimony.
1 Mr. Traldi.
2 MR. TRALDI:
3 Q. Sir, I want to take you forward now to after you were captured
4 and taken to Miska Glava Dom. I have just a few very specific questions
5 about that.
6 First, at pages 19 and 20 of P998, you talk about a Serb asking
7 for ten volunteers from Rizvanovici to come out. And you tried to
8 volunteer. My question is: What did you expect to happen?
9 A. Well, they said what would happen to them in advance. While I
10 was in the doorway, I heard about the way that they would be eliminated.
11 They said that they were going to gouge their eyes out. That's what I
12 heard from one man. And, also, from another two men from Visegrad,
13 Cazin, a father and two sons were in our area, and also another guy who
14 fled from the JNA happened to be there, and I met him immediately before
16 Q. And so am I right to understand your answer that you expected to
17 be eliminated?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And, next, sir, do you know of any detainees who stayed behind at
20 Miska Glava Dom when you were taken away on the buses to Ljubija stadium?
21 A. I was closer to the door, so I wasn't in a position to know
22 whether there were any people left behind.
23 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honour, I'd ask that the Court Officer
24 called 65 ter 27910 to our screens.
25 Q. Sir, this document describes energetic action taken in the
1 Ljubija area in late July 1992 by the Serb army, and I want to explore
2 what that meant in practice. First, after you, your father, and the
3 other people in your group were captured, did you see soldiers in the
4 Serb army?
5 A. I'm sorry, soldiers? Can you please repeat the question. I
6 didn't hear you properly.
7 Q. Sure. After you were captured and before you escaped at Kipe,
8 did you see soldiers in the Serb army?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you mentioned specifically, on page 24 of P998, that the
11 6th Krajina Brigade was in Ljubija. When did you first hear about them?
12 A. I heard about them at Miska Glava.
13 Q. And from who?
14 A. From those who kept us in captivity. The guards said, The
15 6th Krajina is coming.
16 Q. And where else did you see soldiers after you were captured?
17 A. After that incident? Well, in Rakovcani and Rizvanovici where
18 they recaptured me.
19 Q. Between when you were captured and when you escaped, did you see
20 soldiers in Ljubija town?
21 A. Yes. Didn't we say that? Yes, I saw them. Streets were crowded
22 with soldiers.
23 Q. And did you see soldiers at the stadium?
24 A. Some tried to enter the stadium, but those drove [indiscernible]
25 away. They often started arguing because some of the soldiers wanted to
1 participate in what was going to happen to us in the future. But these
2 men managed to chase them away and did it on their own.
3 Q. And at pages 28 and 32 of P998, you mentioned a major who was
4 present at the stadium. Did he appear to be in charge?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I'd ask that 65 ter 27910 be
7 admitted into evidence as the next public Prosecution exhibit.
8 MR. LUKIC: We object. Again, on the same grounds.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Same grounds. Document will be MFI'd.
10 Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 27910 receives number P1002,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: P1002 is marked for identification.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. TRALDI:
16 Q. And, sir, while we're discussing the stadium, I'm going to ask
17 you only one very specific questions: Of the other Muslims detained at
18 the stadium were any of them wearing military uniforms or were they all
19 in civilian clothes?
20 A. They were all in civilian clothes.
21 Q. And you mentioned at page 48 of P998 that after you escaped from
22 the bus, you met two Croats from Brisevo who showed you the way towards
23 Carakovo. Did you later learn the name of either of those men?
24 A. Yes, I did. I was told that there was a man called Ivan. But
25 when I was here in hotel, when I testified last time, that is when I met
1 this Ivan, and I realised that it was the same person.
2 Q. And did you learn what his name was?
3 A. Yes. I didn't know his full name, but when he told me where he
4 was born, I immediately established a connection. He couldn't believe
5 that it was me and that I was so grown up now. I must have been little
6 at the time.
7 Q. And who -- who was that? What was the name you learned.
8 A. Mr. Iva [as interpreted] Atlija.
9 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I would ask that 65 ter 28748 be
10 called to our screens. This is a chart of comments offered by
11 Witness RM045 regarding particular names read to him in preparation for
12 his testimony. We gave notice on Tuesday morning that we would be using
13 such a chart in our e-mail. Mr. Groome is, I think, prepared to make
14 larger submissions regarding the issue, if the Chamber wishes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first hear whether there's any objection
16 against the use of the chart.
17 Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: I don't have it with my documents. At all.
19 MR. TRALDI: I do have a copy which I can provide to Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: Please.
21 MR. TRALDI: And I'd just note while looking at it the witness
22 made a hand sign a moment ago and may have been asking for a break, and
23 the Chamber could perhaps inquire in that respect.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Witness, what was it that you wanted to tell
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I just noticed here that
2 it's written "Iva Atlija," and the proper spelling would be "Ivo Atlija."
3 I apologise.
4 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's appreciated that you are focussed.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we have that document on the screen.
6 MR. TRALDI: And, again, that's 28748. And I'd just ask that it
7 be called to all of our screens. And this was provided to the Defence
8 and the Chamber by e-mail at 4.31 p.m. yesterday. I think we're awaiting
9 Mr. Lukic's position at the moment.
10 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
11 MR. LUKIC: We really need more time to go through the document.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But it was disclosed to you on Tuesday, I do
14 MR. LUKIC: Yesterday.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, there are two issues, Mr. Lukic. The one
16 is whether we could continue and use the chart at this moment. And the
17 second is whether you would need more time to see whether you want to ask
18 further questions about the substance of the chart.
19 The first question, I think, is the urgent one to be dealt with.
20 MR. LUKIC: I think it would take too much of our time to go
21 through the document like this. Then this is a practice that saves time
22 for the Prosecution, but puts additional burden on the Defence,
23 especially time-wise.
24 JUDGE ORIE: If you need more time, then asked for it. I mean,
25 the question is: Do you oppose against a chart being used, or do you
1 want this to be elicited in full in viva voce testimony or --
2 MR. LUKIC: We would prefer if witness can testify about these
3 issues in -- viva voce.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Your objection against the use of the chart is
6 denied. Mr. Lukic, if you need further time at any point in time the
7 Chamber would like to hear from you.
8 Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.
9 MR. TRALDI:
10 Q. And, sir, in preparation for your testimony here, did you review
11 this list of names?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. And do the columns reflect comments you made regarding each
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Did you review the document after you'd made comments?
17 A. Yes, I did. And I signed it.
18 Q. And is that your signature on the left-hand side at the bottom?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. And were you satisfied that your comments were recorded
22 A. Hopefully I was. Yes, I was.
23 Q. And one of these men at number 2, Hare Crljenkovic, you say was
24 executed right before your turn would have come. Why did you think you
25 were about to be executed?
1 A. I don't think I saw anyone else after him. Maybe there were only
2 two men standing against the wall, and Hare was on my right next to the
4 Q. And did anyone say anything, then, that you remembered?
5 A. Yes. While the four or five of them, I just happened to look and
6 I saw him being killed by rifle-butts and -- I don't know. I remember
7 that while he was dying, he said, You, motherfuckers. But I know that he
8 couldn't move and I knew that they wanted to finish us off too, but they
9 asked us whether we would be willing instead to carry the dead bodies and
10 that is what we did. We took them and loaded them onto a bus.
11 MR. TRALDI: And I'll postpone tendering this chart until after
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you like it to be marked for
14 identification so that we now ...
15 MR. TRALDI: I think that would be best, Your Honour, yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28748 receives number P1003
18 Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: P1002 is marked for identification.
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ORIE: I made a mistake. It's P1003 is marked for
23 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask that 65 ter 26287 be called to our
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. TRALDI:
2 Q. And, sir, while that is being called up, at page 4 of what is now
3 P1003, you say Mustafa Karagic was taken out of Miska Glava Dom and was
4 never seen again. This document lists Mustafa Karagic as having died on
5 25 July 1992 in Miska Glava. Is it accurate, as far as you know?
6 A. Maybe he's precisely the person that was killed in front of the
7 door. It resembles his voice too. When those ten volunteers -- I mean,
8 those mentioned persons from Visegrad and Cazin. That's when I heard the
9 scream right in front of the door.
10 Q. And --
11 A. I think that that's where he died. It resembles his voice most
12 of all.
13 Q. And, sir, then is this document, which says he died at that time
14 in Miska Glava, accurate, as far as you know?
15 A. Well, I know he was taken out and I know they closed the door
16 behind them. I haven't seen this. But I heard screams in front of the
17 door and I heard this sound ...
18 Q. Did you ever see him alive again after that?
19 A. No, no. Never. Never.
20 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 26287 as the next
21 public [Microphone not activated] Prosecution exhibit.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, any objection against admission of the
23 death certificate?
24 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 26287 receives number P1004,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: P1004 is admitted.
4 MR. TRALDI:
5 Q. And, sir, in your testimony, now P998, you describe your capture,
6 your mistreatment at Miska Glava Dom and the massacres in Ljubija stadium
7 in Kipe that you survived. How did these events impact you?
8 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for the interpreters, please.
9 Thank you very much.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was hard for me. My marriage
11 was doomed. I have been having nightmares all these years.
12 MR. TRALDI:
13 Q. And do they continue to impact you today?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. And thank you, sir.
16 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, that completes my examination.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.
18 Mr. Lukic, are you ready to start your cross-examination?
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I am, Your Honours. Just one minute to organise
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karagic, you will now be cross-examined by
22 Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Karagic.
25 A. Good day.
1 Q. Did you do your regular military service?
2 A. In the JNA? No. No, I received call-up papers, and I refused to
3 go to the army.
4 Q. Just a moment, please.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the following on
6 our screens: 2848. I assume that it is now P998.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: P998 is 28480.
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. I probably mispronounced them.
9 [Interpretation] We need page 32.
10 Q. This is the Stakic testimony that the Prosecution tendered as
11 your statement. 5235 is the transcript page. Line 6, you provide the
12 following explanation:
13 [In English] "... he was a member of a military police. I had
14 served in the army, so I know."
15 A. I was in the BH army, if that's what you mean. But, until then,
16 I had not known. Now I know it's a military policeman.
17 Q. [Interpretation] All right. Where did you have an opportunity of
18 seeing a military policemen in the BH army?
19 A. In Travnik.
20 Q. What kind of shoulder straps did they have there, and belts?
21 A. Well, white.
22 Q. Now I'd like to ask you something. We had some information here
23 that had to do with your date of birth. Can you tell us when you were
25 A. The 28th of September, 1974.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Invite you to make short pauses between question and
2 answer and answer and question so that the interpreters can follow us.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. You heard the Judge. Since we speak the same language, we will
6 have to pause between question and answer.
7 A. I forgot about that too.
8 Q. You say that you were in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Where
9 and when were you a member of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
10 A. As soon as I reached Travnik, free territory that is, I was there
11 for about a month, a month and a half, then I went to Croatia. And then
12 I spent some time there at the refugee centre; about a year and a half.
13 Then I went to Germany. And then I was there for a year. And then I
14 returned to the BH army. And that's when I had military training too.
15 Q. All right. Now we are going to deal with some specific
16 incidents. First, Hambarine briefly.
17 You were not present when that happened at the check-point in
18 Hambarine. However, I'd like to ask you whether you heard who it was
19 that attacked who in Hambarine.
20 A. Well, what I heard is quite different from what you claim. I
21 mean, I read reports, and that's why I'm saying. Also, on that day, the
22 very same moment, I heard about that, perhaps a few moments later only.
23 Somebody ran up from there and this information was provided. I can't
24 remember exactly what was said, but if I understood it correctly these
25 young men were attacked on the road, whereas your side claims -- well, I
1 cannot say. I cannot say either this or that. But I mean, whatever I
2 was told was -- well, it so turns out that it was the other side that
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, there's no need to refer to what you think
5 the other party may claim. Just tell us what you have seen and what you
6 have observed and whether --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I get lost.
8 I get carried away. I mean, you know, this tragedy, because of that,
9 because of this tragedy.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although we may understand that, we'd invite
11 you very much to focus on what you've seen, what you know, and whether
12 that's consistent with others think they may have seen or may know is a
13 matter you should not be too concerned about.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Q. Did you hear that among the injured members of the
17 Army of Republika Srpska there were Croats too?
18 A. No, I didn't hear about that. I just know that there was this
19 Sikeric [phoen] in Hambarine and that he ended up in the hospital in
20 Prijedor. I don't know.
21 Q. All right. As for the attack on Hambarine, did tanks
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How many tanks were there?
25 A. Well, I don't know. I don't know how many tanks there were. I
1 saw one. That's what I can remember. But what was -- well, I don't
3 Q. All right. Let us please see 1D812 briefly in e-court. We need
4 page 2 in both versions because we need paragraph 2.
5 This is the statement that you gave to the OTP in 1998. In
6 paragraph 2, you claim that three tanks took part in the attack. Can you
7 state your views on that?
8 A. Well, you see, I gave statements, but I don't remember having
9 said that. I don't know. I don't know that I said that. As far as I
10 can remember, I just saw one tank. But how many there were actually, I
11 don't know.
12 Q. Thank you. In this same paragraph, you say:
13 "They took Hambarine within three hours. There was no one there
14 to put up resistance."
15 A. Well, relatively quickly. Yeah, they took it relatively quickly.
16 Q. So was there any resistance?
17 A. I cannot say. I mean, I hid. I hid. Because that was the first
18 time that I heard shells. It was the first time in my life that I heard
19 this terrible thing. I was shaking for a long time after that.
20 Q. Do you know how many armed men there were in Hambarine, armed
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Do you know that eight days after this fighting an attack was
24 launched on the town of Prijedor from Hambarine?
25 A. I know that for a long time shells could be heard at Kozarac,
1 immediately, on the next day.
2 Now, as far as Prijedor is concerned, they say the 30th of May.
3 I heard shells there too, but I heard shells all the time in Kozarac too.
4 So, well, I mean, I was not there personally. I just heard this --
5 Q. Just tell us what it is that you know.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you personally take part in standing guard at check-points?
8 A. Yes. At a check-point.
9 Q. All right. A check-point.
10 A. One, not more.
11 Q. All of that happened before you underwent any kind of military
12 training; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Later, you say that you returned from Germany and joined the
15 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What kind of training did you undergo there?
18 A. Fitness, handling automatic rifles. Then I was in charge of some
19 kind of mortar. I mean, that's the only thing I know. This lasted,
20 like, three months. Or was it two months? I really cannot remember.
21 Q. Did you have any kind of targeting practice?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. And in what unit were you?
24 A. [No interpretation]
25 Q. Do you remember?
1 A. It's called the 37th Muslim Unit.
2 Q. And where was it stationed?
3 A. In Travnik.
4 Q. How did you travel from Germany to Travnik?
5 A. Via Mostar.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the Chamber is a bit lost as far as the
7 relevance of this last series of questions is concerned. So either come
8 to the point which shows the relevance or move on.
9 MR. LUKIC: I actually finished this line of questions. Thank
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then we still do not understand the relevance.
12 Mr. Mladic, you are supposed to remain seated. Mr. Mladic,
13 remain seated. You can consult with counsel. Remain seated, please.
14 [Defence counsel confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Remain seated, I said.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, will you take care that Mr. Mladic always
18 has his earphones in. The standing up in court is something the Chamber
19 does not accept. He can consult; short notice. You know how it works.
20 But remain seated.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. [Interpretation] You set out with a group towards Bihac. Now
24 we're moving ahead in terms of time.
25 How many people were moving along? How many people were trying
1 to break through to Bihac?
2 A. Before -- well, I don't know. I just said 300. It was sort of a
3 free estimate. I don't know exactly how many of us there were.
4 Q. And where was it that you assembled before you started this
6 A. I think Bukvik Suma. I think that's what it's called.
7 Q. Do you know where the forest of Kurevo is?
8 A. Somewhere near Carakovo, yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock. I think it's
10 approximately time to take a break.
11 Again, if -- the follow-up questions, still, it's not clear what
12 the relevance of that is. But please -- and if you want to ask these
13 questions, come to the point you want to make as quickly as possible so
14 that the Chamber also is able to understand what it is about.
15 Mr. Karagic, we'll take a break, and you'll first be escorted out
16 of the courtroom. We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.
17 THE WITNESS: Hvala.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at five minutes past 12.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 11.46 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I can just briefly inform you that
1 over the break, Mr. Stojanovic and Mr. Shin met. They have agreed on a
2 map. We are in a process of creating that map, and as soon as it is
3 available in e-court, we will tender it.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is appreciated.
5 Mr. Lukic, could you give us any indication as to whether you
6 think, in view of how the cross-examination develops, that we could
7 conclude the evidence of this witness today so that we would know whether
8 we should be here tomorrow morning at 9.30?
9 MR. LUKIC: I'll do my best to finish him today so we don't have
10 to come tomorrow.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, yes. We are here anyhow. It's ... and we are
12 always willing to hear whatever evidence we are requested to hear.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome back. Mr. Lukic will now continue -- yes.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before we begin, while I was
17 sitting there, I just remembered what the lawyer asked me. He was
18 talking about the tanks and the attack on Hambarine and the three hours
19 that it took for capture. I could not possibly see any tank at the
20 moment when that was happening. It was on the day before when the
21 check-point was attacked, so I have a kind of mix-up with this regard,
22 and I felt the need to notify you of that.
23 I was in the lower part of the village running towards the
24 check-point when they attacked Hambarine. Therefore, I could not have
25 seen any tanks, and I don't know how I could have mentioned tanks at all,
1 so I felt it -- it's my duty to tell you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
3 Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
5 Q. Can we continue?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. We talked about your group that was on the move, but just before
8 we start with the capture, let's make a kind of introduction first.
9 We said that there were armed people in the group. Were those
10 armed men in uniform or were they in civilian clothes too?
11 A. Before the capture, one of the men took off his uniform. The
12 rest were in civilian clothes.
13 Q. You were moving, and you could hear that somebody was issuing an
14 order, Halt, halt, don't run away; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, it is. And he was shooting at the same time.
16 Q. And the group scattered; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. And after that, you were taken prisoner.
19 A. Well, not exactly immediately after that. But perhaps one or two
20 hours later, we were captured. And that is when I saw this man taking
21 off his uniform. I even hadn't noticed any rifles before, although it is
22 in the statement that I read.
23 Q. Well, can you remember today whether any of the men in the group
24 was armed?
25 A. When we were captured?
1 Q. No, before you were captured.
2 A. Well, five minutes before we were taken prisoner, I saw four
3 rifles. And I saw this man taking off his uniform. But not before that.
4 I didn't see it.
5 Q. Thank you. What kind of uniforms -- were the people who took you
7 A. Olive-drab-green and the uniform of reserve police forces. Kind
8 of blue coats. That was the civilian police.
9 Q. And when you were captured, where did they take you to?
10 A. We were first searched. We had to take everything out of our
11 pockets. One of them fired into the air, maybe to intimidate us and keep
12 us calm.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last one he
14 said about someone being slaughtered.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The guard who was standing in front
16 of me opened fire, and I remember that somebody grabbed the barrel and
17 pointed it into the air. But the one who did this knew these people. I
18 think that they all knew each other. Some of them even said, Fuck it,
19 it's a war.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. First, you were taken to Miska Glava?
22 A. No. We were first taken to a meadow where we were assembled.
23 And somebody threw a stone at us. And then, in the meantime, a van
24 arrived, and it took us to Miska Glava in several batches.
25 Q. How many people could be accommodated in the van?
1 A. I don't know. We were packed, as many as possible. It -- it was
2 not according to the standard.
3 Q. Now you arrived at Miska Glava.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. At the Dom.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what kind of uniforms did you see there?
8 A. Olive-drab-green.
9 Q. Did you see people in reserve police uniforms?
10 A. Not that I know of.
11 Q. Let me just refresh your memory by looking at the transcript
12 tendered by the Prosecution.
13 We need P998 in e-court, page 17 in the English. We did not
14 operate with the B/C/S version at all because we were not aware of there
15 being one.
16 You were asked by the Prosecutor - for the record that's
17 page 5219 from the Stakic transcript:
18 [In English] "Were there people in uniforms? Could you tell who
19 they were or what units they were from?"
20 And your answer was.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: What line are you reading?
22 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, 16 and further.
23 Q. And your answer was:
24 "I think it was the Miska Glava Territorial Defence, and they
25 were wearing JNA uniforms. I didn't see any other kind of uniforms in
1 that place, although at the place where we were taken prisoner, there
2 were also reserve police uniforms."
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. [Interpretation] So at the place where you were detained, men
5 were dressed in reserve police uniforms.
6 A. Yes, as far as I can remember. What do you mean, military
8 Q. Reserve police officers.
9 A. Are you talking about the meadow where we were captured or --
10 what are you talking about?
11 Q. I read it out to you where you said that, at that place where we
12 were incarcerated, there were men in reserve police uniforms.
13 A. Well, it's -- it seems that we're talking about the Dom --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Mr. Lukic, it was translated to us your
15 question as incarcerated which seems to refer to a detention situation.
16 Could we clearly distinguish between --
17 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But also in such a way that witness is not
19 confused. In this transcript the witness refers to reserve police
20 uniforms at the location where he was taken --
21 MR. LUKIC: Prisoner.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- prisoner. Yes. And that is not where he was
23 incarcerated but where he was taken prisoner. Incarceration follows once
24 you have been taken prisoner, taken to a place and then that may be a
25 different place and that may have been, for example, the Miska Glava --
1 the Miska Glava Dom.
2 So could we clearly distinguish between the two.
3 Please proceed. I leave it in your hands.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Karagic, do you remember now you were
6 imprisoned in Miska Glava Dom. Around the Dom, did you see that a
7 delegation arrived in light brown uniforms?
8 A. It is possible. Yes, there was a delegation. Now whether they
9 were dressed in uniforms, but it was that colour.
10 Q. Light brown?
11 A. Well, probably. It's been 20 years. But I think it's more like
12 coffee brown.
13 Q. You also saw, but that was at the stadium later, Becir Stojan who
14 was dressed in black; is that correct?
15 A. I think it was him. Whether it was him --
16 Q. Yes, but anyway you saw a man --
17 A. Yes, I saw a man on the bus also dressed in black. But that was
18 another person. And this one with a beard resembles most Stojan Becir.
19 I happened to see his picture in the "Blic" or in another newspaper when
20 he was arrested, so I put two and two together, and he also had a cross
21 around his neck so it must have been him.
22 Q. He had a beard?
23 A. Yes, a well-trim beard.
24 Q. From the Miska Glava Dom, where were you taken to?
25 A. From the Dom?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. We were taken to the stadium.
3 Q. In Ljubija?
4 A. Yes.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please pause between
6 questions and answers.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could I again ask you, Witness, to make a short
8 pause between question and answer. Yes.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I have forgotten again
10 that this needs to be interpreted.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You're not the only one who forgets now and then.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. [Interpretation] The stadium is situated between Gornja Ljubija
15 and Donja Ljubija; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And this is where you were lined up. How did that happen?
18 A. While we were passing through Ljubija, when I saw the army there,
19 a man in black uniform came in, and he asked about people with my last
20 name, and I remember my father telling me to keep quiet. One of the guys
21 wanted to say, Now, what do you want? And he started slapping him across
22 the face or kicking him. And then at the very entrance to the stadium
23 when we reached it, we got off, running, and people were waiting for us.
24 There was a bus driver with a moustache and he was beating us. So when I
25 arrived there, it seemed to me that there had been people there before we
1 arrived. There were many of us, so they made two lines along the wall
2 the -- the length of the stadium. But I don't know how many people there
3 were exactly.
4 Q. Did they put -- put you in two lines or in four lines?
5 A. If I remember correctly, two lines.
6 Q. Can we briefly see one portion ...
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the last part
8 of the question.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you're invited to repeat the last part of
10 your question.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at document 1D182 [as
12 interpreted]. It's the witness's statement given the Prosecution on the
13 10th of November, 1998.
14 We need paragraph 5. It's page 3 in both versions.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it's 1D812.
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Lawyer. Does my
18 statement say that I said four lines?
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. I don't believe I ever said that, just like about the thing a
22 while ago.
23 Q. In the middle of this paragraph, it says -- so what you think
24 that what you stated at the time that you were lined up in four lines
25 that is not correct?
1 A. I don't believe I ever said that.
2 Q. Very well. And, now, in front of the stadium where you were
3 lined up, what kind of uniforms did you observe there?
4 A. At the moment, all I can remember is this major in an olive-drab
5 uniform. Maybe with a white belt. Maybe his uniform was with a pattern.
6 I cannot confirm. I don't know. The one who was addressed as Vojvoda,
7 who I think it was actually Stojan Becir, that he was in civilian
8 clothes. He was in black anyway, but whether it was civilian clothes or
9 not, I don't know. And whether it was Stojan Becir or not, all I can say
10 is I presume it was him.
11 Q. All right. Did you see a policeman there?
12 A. Well, I believe the one with the white belt was supposed to be
13 some kind of military policeman; right?
14 Q. All right. A moment ago you mentioned something and I'd like to
15 go back to that now.
16 Actually, we'll go back in time. When you were taken prisoner in
17 this forest was called it Kalajevo or Kurevo?
18 A. Kalajevo. You mean where we were taken prisoner?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. I don't know. Kalajevo, and then we were running, running, and
21 now where we were when we were taken prisoner, I don't know.
22 Q. All right. But just before that, I was just wondering whether it
23 was Kurevo?
24 A. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, to this day I don't know
25 what belongs to Kurevo. I know that they called this Kalajevo where we
1 were taken this rest. Now where we ran, I know that we crossed some road
2 and whatever and I don't know how much time went by as we were running.
3 I don't know.
4 Q. You also say that they found something on a man -- or rather, in
5 this man's pocket, or did he throw this out of his pocket?
6 A. A little pistol. He threw it out of his pocket as if it had been
7 handmade and also a knife, and then they wanted to slit the throat of --
8 well. But anyway, he started running away and I've already said --
9 Q. All right. You've already said that. In one statement, you
10 mention a penknife and in another statement you mention a small pistol.
11 Today you're saying both.
12 A. Who said anything different?
13 Q. We're going to look at this briefly now. 1D --
14 A. You know, you know, I mean, I never really said what the man had
15 in his pocket. I said what was on the pile. Now whether it belonged to
16 the same man, I don't know. I know there was some pistol and this
17 penknife, knife, whatever you call it. Well, it was small anyway.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not catch the last
20 THE WITNESS: He wanted to slit his throat.
21 JUDGE ORIE: One second. The interpreters did not catch the last
23 You said, "I know there was some" --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, I'm so sorry.
25 JUDGE ORIE: No. You said:
1 "I know there was some pistol and this penknife, knife, whatever
2 you call it ... it was small anyway."
3 What did you then add after you said, "It was small anyway"?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, I said that I never claimed
5 that it was in his pocket that it was found in his pocket. It was in
6 front of us. Us as a group. Not in somebody's pocket.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
9 Q. [Interpretation] In Miska Glava, where was it that you were
10 actually detained?
11 A. Well, it was a sort of coffee bar.
12 Q. Was it within this Dom?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When you came to the Dom, did they write down your names?
15 A. Yes. Now was it immediately or -- no. I think it was during the
17 Q. And did they give you water in Miska Glava?
18 A. Yes. I've already said that. It's already stated there. Well,
19 there was this old man, a nice old man -- well, he was good. He was
20 nice. He gave us water when we were there with him. And afterwards, at
21 day break, the old man was no longer there. Then it was bad, because we
22 had to sing in order to get water, whatever, and then when we'd go out,
23 we'd get beaten up, and if somebody went out to piss, take a piss - I'm
24 sorry for using this kind of word - also we were sort of afraid to go
25 out. I went out to urinate. They didn't mistreat me. But they sure did
1 mistreat some other people.
2 Q. Now, about this water, did anybody urinate into that water before
3 it was given to you?
4 A. No. No. No -- well, maybe. I don't know. But we drank it. I
5 mean, even if somebody had urinated it, maybe we would have had it
6 anyway. We were so thirsty. The temperature was unbearable in there. I
7 mean, I really don't know how come we didn't suffocate.
8 Q. In your statement of the 10th of November, 1995, in paragraph 5,
9 1D812, you said we had to sing in order to get water but they had
10 urinated into the water that we drank.
11 A. Well, that's what was written down. They wrote that down.
12 Q. But when you testified in the Stakic case, on page 5220, you said
13 that you did not see anyone urinating there. You said that this was just
14 theoretical. And even if someone had urinated into the water you were so
15 thirsty that you would have had it any way.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So it's not true that someone urinated into that water?
18 A. I cannot assert --
19 Q. What, that somebody did or did not urinate into that water?
20 A. I cannot say that that is correct. I'm saying that even if
21 someone had done that, we would have had that water nevertheless because
22 we were so thirty.
23 Q. But you did not see anyone doing that.
24 A. Oh, no. No way, I did not see anyone doing that.
25 Now that you've asked me this I have to say something. During
1 those three days we got some bread and these little chocolate balls
2 that's the only thing that we had to eat, now that we're on the subject.
3 Q. In Miska Glava was somebody's name called out? Was somebody
4 taken out? Was somebody killed?
5 A. Many names were called out. Among them, my father. I knew most
6 of them, these men who were being taken out. Most of them by sight.
7 Q. In your statement from the 10th of November, 1998, you do not
8 mention that anybody's names were called out in Miska Glava?
9 A. No, that's not the way I had put it. I'm surprised by all these
10 contradictions. I know how many people were taken out and beaten up and
11 never returned. I even know when two men went from this group to bury
12 someone. Now who it was, I don't know. But I mean, I'd just know about
13 this man whose lungs sort of went dead. So there were dead people there
14 too, and they buried someone there by the Dom, since these men went to
15 bury someone. But who it was, I don't know. And I also do not know how
16 many such cases there were.
17 Q. So when you arrived in the stadium in Ljubija, did you see some
18 people who had already arrived there before you or, rather, you spoke
19 about that a moment ago?
20 A. Where?
21 Q. Before the stadium in Ljubija.
22 A. Well, yes, I had the impression that there were people there when
23 we arrived. When you see lots of people, the stadium is so long, yes.
24 And over there, in Miska Glava, there were already less, so people were
25 taken in this group; apart from those who had been killed individually.
1 Q. These men who were standing around you, did they bring someone to
2 point out who it was from your group that had weapons?
3 A. Could you please repeat the question.
4 Q. You were in Ljubija?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You were lined up in front of the stadium?
7 A. By the wall.
8 Q. Yes. Now these people with weapons --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Serbs?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did they bring some other people to show which people from
13 amongst you had been armed?
14 A. Well, they pointed out this young man and then this young man
15 pointed at someone else, and that's how it was.
16 No, no, no. No. Who was with him somewhere. Not who was armed
17 from amongst us. Now where, was it Kurevo, I don't know. No. Oh,
18 sorry, Lawyer. Can I just go and you know?
19 Q. We'll take a break.
20 A. Well, just five minutes. My bladder is weak.
21 Q. Just a moment, please. We have to ask the Trial Chamber.
22 Your Honours, may we take a break now?
23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break. The witness can leave the
24 courtroom first and then ...
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE ORIE: As matters stand now, Mr. Traldi, how much time you
2 think you'll need for re-examination, if any at all?
3 MR. TRALDI: Thus far, very little, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if we would resume at 1.00, do you think
5 that ... again, it's [Overlapping speakers]
6 MR. LUKIC: Depending on the witness. If he has to make a
7 brief --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, it's not only depending on the witness,
9 as you are aware of. Focussed questioning.
10 We resume at 1.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
14 Meanwhile, the Chamber has decided about P1001 and P1002 and has
15 decided that it is appropriate to admit them at this stage of the
17 Therefore, P1001 and P1002 are now in evidence.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Any specific reason why we have to wait -- no, no.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Q. Can we proceed?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. In the Stakic transcript, on page P233, lines 20 and 21, we need
4 page 30 in e-court of this transcript.
5 You said that you did not know whether a Croat or Muslim had been
6 brought in, one who had been caught in the forest, and he was supposed to
7 point out the persons who were with him in the forest. And then he
8 pointed out two persons, Ismet Avdic and Ferid Kadiric or Kadic?
9 A. No, Ferid Kadic.
10 Q. You said Ferid Kadiric or Kadic.
11 A. No way. I did not say that. It can be Ermin Kadic but not
12 Fikret or Ferid.
13 Q. Ismet Avdic, Ferid Kadiric. Now we can find this down here in
14 lines 19 through 25. That's what was recorded in this transcript.
15 You're saying today -- actually, do you know who Ferid Kadiric or Kadic
17 A. Kadiric I should know if we're talking about the first person who
18 was killed in the stadium. If that's the person we're talking about. I
19 should know him, there are two Ferid Kadirics.
20 Q. All right.
21 A. One went into the same class as I did.
22 Q. Who pointed at weapons?
23 A. He didn't point at anything. And this other one, I don't know.
24 This other Ferid was already by the fence if that's Ferid.
25 Q. What about Ismet Avdic?
1 A. Ismet Avdic, yes.
2 Q. 1D807. Could that be displayed please. That's the statement
3 that you gave on the 11th of November 1992.
4 A. In Zagreb.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Kindly mention the names
6 of people slowly. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Everyone is invited to give names of persons slowly.
10 It's a request on the interpreters.
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I think I would -- no, we are. Now it's better. I
13 think my voice was -- I tried to activate my microphone but there was
14 wrong. Interpreters have asked everyone to slowly mention names of
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Q. In your statement here, the one from Zagreb, around the middle of
19 the page in B/C/S, and on top of the page in the English version, it
20 starts from the second line. You say that he brought Avdic, Ismet;
21 Kadiric, Ferid; and another person to show the persons who had weapons.
22 They indicated 25 persons?
23 A. I could not have stated that. I could not have stated that in
24 such form, especially not Ferid Kadiric. I couldn't have mentioned him
1 Q. Did you have an impression that the official in Zagreb who was
2 taking your statement know -- knew the persons that you were talking
4 A. No. But I know that they came to the refugee centre to look for
5 me, but I didn't dare stay there any longer. Because of the conflict
6 between the Muslims and Croats, I didn't want to take a chance of being
7 surrendered to the other side. That's why I wanted to go to Germany as
8 soon as possible.
9 Q. Would you --
10 A. Well, he treated me well. Let's be clear on that. But I'm not
11 sure that I could have put it in that form.
12 Q. He could not have written down the name of Ferid Kadiric because
13 he didn't know him, unless it wasn't you who mentioned that. Would you
14 agree with me?
15 A. I don't understand your question.
16 Q. The official who took the statement, you say that he didn't know
17 the people you were talking about.
18 A. I suppose he wasn't able to know them.
19 Q. That's why I said, unless you mentioned the name of
20 Ferid Kadiric, he wouldn't have noted it down.
21 A. I don't know why I mentioned it. And if I did, that was many
22 years ago. It may have been the case.
23 Q. Just a moment, please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Once again, short pause between question and answer
25 and between answer and question.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 We now need 1D808 in e-court, please. This is, again, a
4 statement given in Zagreb two months later on the 11th of January, 1993.
5 We need, B/C/S, page 3, and English, page 4. In the B/C/S, it's
6 very at the bottom of the page, and in the English, the very top of the
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, let go back to this.
9 How it was possible for me to say how many people? I was dead frightened
10 and I couldn't have been counting people --
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Let us just proceed. I'm sorry.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please instruct Mr. Mladic to refrain from
14 loud laughter during the testimony of the witness. It will have
15 consequences, as he is aware of and we will not wait for very long.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Q. Here, you say:
19 "Three traitors attended the questioning."
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just tell us where are you reading, Mr. Lukic,
21 please. You said top. Three traitors. What line?
22 MR. LUKIC: The very top. The first line. Actually, it starts
23 from the second line. Ismet Avdic and further on.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, the statement that says "three translators."
25 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, if I might assist. I think in the
1 English the word that appears is informers and it's on the third line.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, please, if you allow me.
3 Allow me, please.
4 I see a couple of things here already. Without his reasoning,
5 that -- I don't know. Really, I would discard this. I don't know.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was mention of hats and
8 things of that nature. I don't recall that at all.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, wait -- wait quietly. The only thing we
10 did is the Judges wanted to find the place from where Mr. Lukic was
11 reading. Wait until Mr. Lukic has read what he intends to read, and then
12 he'll put some questions to you, and then you will have an opportunity to
13 say whether you agree or disagree or at least to answer those questions.
14 So just remain quietly, wait for the questions to come, and let
15 Mr. Lukic read first.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. So did you mention Ismet Avdic, Ferid Kadiric and another man
18 from Carakovo as traitors who betrayed the people who had arms, they were
19 wealthy people and member of the SDA?
20 A. In that respect it is possible. But again you are mentioning
21 Ferid Kadiric and again you are leading me to say that they were
22 traitors. I cannot say that any of them was a traitor.
23 Q. I'm reading what's been noted down.
24 A. I had opportunity to read even worse things. Therefore I could
25 kindly ask the Judge not to have this read because I never said them.
1 Q. Could we now have 1D809.
2 A. Either I don't remember or I really don't understand.
3 Q. This is your statement given on the 2nd of May, 1995. B/C/S
4 version, page 3, very top of the page; and English page 4, fourth line
5 from the top.
6 And the sentence begins with the word, "They then ...":
7 "They then singled out three Bosniaks: Avdic, who used to work
8 in a cafe, Ferid Kadiric, and a man from Carakovo, and they were ordered
9 to say who participated in an attempt to free Prijedor and those were
10 members of the Territorial Defence. Do you remember saying that?
11 A. No, I don't, if you are asking me about the weapons and whether
12 he was with someone. But as for everything else I discard that
14 Q. According to you, who recorded erroneously what you said on four
16 A. Which statement are you talking about? Is it the Zagreb
18 Q. The statement of the 2nd of May, 1995. Official is Zijad Ibric.
19 A. Judge, I can tell you immediately with regard to this statement
20 and knowing what happened to me later I already was sure that there were
21 some games being played because I signed a lot of things on blank pieces
22 of paper on the assumption that something would be added later. So
23 please bear that in mind when we are discussing these things.
24 Q. Very well. Just briefly, it says here that the witness --
25 statement was given to SJB Prijedor, MUP of Banja Luka. However, it was
1 given in Travnik?
2 A. Yes. The Travnik CSB.
3 Q. Very well. Now something about how you managed to flee from the
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How many of you were in the group that remained behind before you
7 jumped out of the bus?
8 A. How many of us remained? Where? On the bus?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. As far as I reckon, not more than five. Do you want me to
11 describe the event?
12 Q. It's not necessary. We have it in your statement.
13 A. Very well.
14 Q. So were there five of you? You said that was not more than five.
15 Was it three? How many?
16 A. I don't know what you are trying to get with this, but I'm going
17 to describe the event again, and that's how we will come up with the
19 So, when they said the next three, I got up. Somebody -- but
20 what happened during those few seconds, I don't know. I couldn't see
21 everything. All I know is that the one who was taking people out, the
22 driver, was lying on the floor. That Nino from Biscani was lying on to
23 of him holding his rifle. At the same time a window on the left-hand
24 side was broken, and according to some stories later, the one who jumped
25 throughout the window was kill immediately.
1 This is when I turned away to look at the man who was lying on
2 top of the other, and then I see somebody else. A Serb soldier who is
3 pulling the one on top by the legs. At that moment, I went to the window
4 and the one, the guard who was standing there, didn't have any bullets.
5 He was changing his clip. When I jumped out, I went on running. I fell
6 into a hole. I saw three men running past. I didn't know who they were.
7 Only later did I find out who that was.
8 Now, you are asking me to say three, five. One was already
9 killed. Which have two there. We have another one lying on top of the
10 driver. So that's five all together.
11 Q. What is the time of the day when you jumped out of the bus?
12 A. It was moonlight. It was night.
13 Q. And you spent the night where?
14 A. Perhaps 150 metres from the place where the shooting took place.
15 Q. How many -- how -- how long did you stay there?
16 A. I got up before the break of dawn, and I started walking
17 cautiously. I passed by some tires, I was terribly frightened and I
18 thought that I was too visible because I heard some noise from the
19 forest, so I took off my shoes but my feet were too white so I covered
20 them. And, that I came out and said, shoot me. And that is the moment
21 when I came across the two Croats who told me that everybody from their
22 village had been killed two days before that and that they were looking
23 for women and children.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the Chamber needs a break of more likely
25 no more than two or three minutes.
1 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom to start with.
2 We will resume, and it will be a very short break.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Everybody is expected to remain stand-by. And ...
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Most likely we're back in two or three minutes.
8 --- Break taken at 1.26 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 1.30 p.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.
11 The urgent matter the Chamber unfortunately had to deal with
12 is -- has been dealt with by now.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Karagic, the place where you were hiding, did you fall
17 asleep, did you lost consciousness?
18 A. Everything could have happened. I remember that I woke up in the
19 morning, and I was cold.
20 Q. So you left there towards Rakovcani?
21 A. I said that I saw these two Croats, and they told me to go
22 towards Carakovo because I was not familiar with that ground because I
23 had never been in the forest earlier so I didn't know. And I went in the
24 direction of Carakovo. But before that, many things happened.
25 Q. Who did you meet on the way? A man who was attending cattle; is
1 that correct?
2 A. It is possible. It was an elderly man. He gave me something to
3 eat. Oh, wait. Are you talking about when I was arrested?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. Oh. There was an old man -- do I have to say his name?
6 Q. We have it in the statement.
7 A. Yes. Is it Avdic?
8 Q. Avdo Dzambastagic. Because you mentioned two Avdos, Avdo and
9 Avdo Dzambastagic. Avdo Avdic and Avdo Dzambastagic.
10 A. That was Avdo Dzambastagic. Somebody wrote it wrongly. He was
11 sitting there and tending cows.
12 Q. And then a uniformed person with a beard came and arrested you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And then another man in the reserve police uniform came.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And they arrested you there. So what happened next?
17 A. They took me, I think I was put in a car. They were speaking
18 about fuel while they were outside, and I thought that that could give me
19 a chance to escape. They took me out of the car and put me on a tractor.
20 Q. How much fuel did you tell them you had?
21 A. I don't know that I said how much fuel I had. I only said I have
22 fuel at that moment. Or at least I think so.
23 Well, and, Lawyer, yes, I did have fuel. But I sincerely wanted
24 to bring them to the fuel but my real intention was to escape. So when
25 they took me to my house, we were building a large storage for fruit and
1 vegetables, and some of it is still preserved below the ground and what
2 is above the ground is derelict. And I think that there were blocks
3 prepared for further building, and fuel was inside. And that occurred to
4 me when I told them I had fuel. However, when -- we came there, somebody
5 had already found the fuel. I don't know how, but it was gone. So I
6 took them behind the stable because I had another hiding place, and I
7 found a barrel with 20 litres of fuel. I wanted to flee then, but this
8 man was guarding me at gun point.
9 Q. Did you ever talk to these people about the quantities of oil
10 that you could give them?
11 A. Uh-huh, later. I don't know whether it was exactly those people.
12 I know that when I was burying the dead in Rizvanovici, that -- now how
13 did that happen?
14 I think that I thought that I could buy my own life back by
15 giving fuel. I know when this guy hit me, well, first with some piece of
16 wood. I mean, somebody had found -- I don't know how to say this. It
17 was a big piece of wood, and he hit me with that, and I said, How much is
18 my life worth? And he said, 5.000 litres of fuel. And I said, Well, I
19 have 200. I just happened to remember that my uncle had some buried
20 somewhere. I have no idea. But this just sort of happened to go through
21 my head, and, yeah. Well, possibly. Possibly. When -- when -- when he
22 already had that stake that he wanted to impale me on and he said, Fuck
23 you. Why didn't you tell me immediately? And he wanted to hit me and I
24 caught this in the air. I don't know. I don't know. Whether he got me
25 or I got him, out of fear, I mean, I would never let go. Never let go.
1 I was hoping that the commander would help. So I called the commander.
2 I said, Commander, commander, so that he would help me --
3 Q. So did he help you? Did anyone help?
4 A. I think so, yes --
5 Q. Was somebody lying there on you, pretending to beat you but was
6 actually protecting you?
7 A. Yes. And later on, I think that he let me -- well, I don't know.
8 I'm not glad to be saying this, because of this man. In fact he saved me
9 from that soldier who wanted to impale me on that stake. But now did he
10 have the intention of helping me? He did do it though. He was playing
11 with this knife walking up to me, and he sort of fell. And that moment I
12 was fleeing and he had nothing to trip over. I mean, it was just a
13 clearing, a meadow. I think that he fell on purpose, to give me the
14 chance to run away. Well, that would be it. I know that I was supposed
15 to bury six others before I ran away. Well ...
16 Q. On that occasion, did someone fire at you?
17 A. As I ran to the brook, I just heard something fly by me, and I
18 saw later on that it was a grenade that exploded. I thought that it had
19 blown away my ear and I was holding onto my ear and I was also wounded by
20 it, here.
21 Now I don't know whether there's any shrapnel left anywhere. I
22 don't know.
23 Q. You're showing your hand. The wound -- your hand or head?
24 A. Here, here. I thought that it had fallen off but it was just
25 grazed, here. But it was sort of -- they weren't shooting then. I
1 think. I think. They just fired and then later on I'd find out -- I
2 mean, I didn't have experience with this military stuff. I mean, you
3 know the thing that they call drunken Ustashas, you know. It's like a
4 rifle grenade, sort of something that's round and then you put a grenade
5 there and then, well, it was with that that they fired this grenade. I
6 saw that soldier, but I didn't know what this was used for.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1D812. Could we briefly take a look
8 at that now, please. We need page 5.
9 Q. This is your statement of the 10th of November, 1998.
10 We need paragraph 15. Page 5, both versions.
11 This is what you say here in the English version. It is the
12 sixth line from the top.
13 A. I've read that before you did. So this text is correct.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Wait for the question to be put.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But I've
16 read the entire paragraph so I know what's written there so I wanted to
17 tell him straight away that that's the way it was --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Just wait for the question. That is what we expect
19 you to do.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. This is what is written here:
22 "A Serb fired at me and I thought I was dead but he only hit my
23 shirt, not me."
24 A. Correct as I was burying those two, he was playing with me,
25 shooting at me before he went to get the stake sharpened for impaling me.
1 Q. It wasn't before the escape.
2 A. No, no, it was before we started wrestling. Is that the word you
3 use, wrestling? At any rate, we were both holding that and... yes.
4 Q. And when were you asked whether you were hungry and did they
5 offer you any food?
6 A. They did.
7 Q. Where did they take you?
8 A. To the Bosna cafe.
9 Q. And they gave you something to eat there?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I don't understand in terms of time when this happened. I mean,
12 in relation to this preparing the stake and holding onto it.
13 A. Perhaps an hour or two later.
14 Q. After you were holding the stake and wrestling?
15 A. No. First, I mean, remember that paragraph? That's where it's
16 written. All of it. Before that, they took me to the cafe. I mean,
17 first, the thing with the belt. And then I ended up at the cafe. And
18 then in the cafe I was questioned by this commander. And I had to -- I
19 address him as the commander of Serbian Biscani, Rakovcani, and as I
20 spoke to him, he put a pile of IDs in front of me. I really didn't know
21 any of these people. I just recognised the waiter. Out of all of these
22 IDs that were there. And they all come from my village. But there you
23 go. I didn't know them.
24 Q. All right.
25 A. And then this man was sort of poking at me with his knife. They
1 offered me a cigarette. However, since this guy was sort of poking me
2 with that knife, I sort of said I couldn't. Whereas this guy said, Fuck
3 you, eat. And then well, that would be it. And then I said -- now what
4 was this that I said?
5 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Wait for --
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. I do apologise. We really have to move on because our time is
8 limited. We're trying to finish today so that you don't have to come
9 back tomorrow. So I will just have a few more questions.
10 After that this one is pretending to beat you, and then you are
11 haggling over the stake, and now where -- where did you arrive after
12 that, when you were fleeing from these people?
13 A. I know that I first ran into a thicket and then I lay there, and
14 then they ran by me, ran by me. Then they went further on to look for
15 me, and I went in the opposite direction. In fact, I was going through
16 the open -- I mean, there were these raspberries that were planted in
17 rows and then there was some kind of path that was open, and I saw this
18 path and I managed to squeeze through. It was short of like a path. You
19 know how thicket is when you are moving through raspberries. At any
20 rate, I managed to escape, they were looking for me in the forest, and I
21 was running in the opposite direction.
22 Now where did I arrive? I arrived in Rika. That's what we call
23 it. There was this little house. And I walked into that house and I
24 kept holding my ear, right? And then I entered that house, and -- and,
25 sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Since they called me Green Beret, I found a
1 green -- a -- a green sheet and I thought, Oh, fuck, they're going to
2 kill me now. And I found this knife. And then I took it with me. And
3 then the third time when they noticed me I wanted to kill myself with
4 that very same knife. At any rate I did not want to be caught alive.
5 Q. That time, when you hid, did you ever pass out as you were
6 running? Did you ever hit your head?
7 A. Well, yes, there. But not here.
8 Q. Kipe is when you jumped out of the bus?
9 A. Well, when I ran, that's where I passed out, if I did pass out.
10 I just know that I woke up in the morning.
11 Well, look, for a few days we hadn't slept. Now we were there
12 for how many days and we did not really sleep when they were taken
13 prisoner. I don't think that anybody felt like sleeping.
14 Q. Were you ever hiding in a tree?
15 A. A tree? I don't think so.
16 Q. You don't remember that?
17 A. I don't remember that. I know I was underneath a tree. I had
18 this hole dug there, and I know that I hid there for quite a few days.
19 Q. All right. Let us briefly take a look at transcript ...
20 actually, the Stakic transcript. We need page 65. In e-court.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: P998.
22 MR. LUKIC: And I need a page number. Thanks.
23 [Defence counsel confer]
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. This is what you say here. Yes. 5268; that's the page number
1 from the Stakic transcript. I'm going to read it out in English so that
2 you get the right interpretation. From line 16 onwards:
3 [In English] "There was slope there, and I took out the cord off
4 my shorts, which I then tied to a tree there. And I tied myself to the
5 tree so that they wouldn't see me. I was hanging upside down, actually,
6 and they were not very far from me."
7 A. It is correct. It is correct. I've already told you that. I
8 wanted to kill myself then. I was holding the knife -- the knife and I
9 took the cord out of those Hawaii short, whatever you call them, and then
10 tied it to the fence. How could I tie it to the tree? And then on one
11 side there were cows and on the other side were leaves. And they passed
12 by me and they went to look for me further. Now where this thing,
13 hanging upside down came from, I really have no idea. And then I was
14 holding this knife --
15 Q. [Interpretation] So you did not say that you were hanging upside
16 down with your head down?
17 A. No. How could I do that? I don't know how come that's there.
18 Q. Again, you joined this group of people who were supposed to go to
19 Travnik; is that right? And that's were you found your brother; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Some of these people were armed as well, when you found them;
23 A. Yes. Two of them.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly repeat his last
25 answer, please. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your last answer.
2 You were asked:
3 "Some of these people were armed as well, when you found them;
5 And then the answer which is recorded was:
6 "Yes. Two of them."
7 Did you say anything further or was that your answer?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's all.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Q. Now let us briefly go back to what you said. You said that you
12 signed these empty sheets of paper?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Where was it that you signed these empty sheets of paper, in
16 A. The CSB Banja Luka.
17 Q. That was in Travnik?
18 A. Zagreb, I don't remember what happened there. I don't remember.
19 But I know that I gave a statement and -- I don't know. I don't think
20 that such -- I don't know. I don't think I said such things.
21 Q. Very briefly. You were in Germany. And you came from Germany
22 via Mostar, as you said, to Travnik?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you come with a group of fighters?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And in Germany, did you undergo any kind of military training?
2 A. No. With the approval of the German authorities, I left. I
3 asked them to let me go. I couldn't take it anymore. I often had dreams
4 of what had happened to me. And then, also due to certain emotional
5 matters -- I mean, I met this girl --
6 Q. All right. We understand that. Can you just tell us how many
7 blank papers were given to you in Travnik?
8 A. I don't know. Several of them.
9 Q. During all these years --
10 A. Excuse me, there is a video recording as well, so maybe on the
11 basis of this video recording can show what I said exactly. There was a
12 camera on while I was giving my statement --
13 Q. In Travnik?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Over the years --
16 MR. LUKIC: We will have to go to private session for a couple of
18 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
19 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 Mr. Lukic, this concluded your cross-examination.
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Sir, thank you for answering my questions. This is all I wanted
20 to ask you. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, any need to re-examine the witness?
22 MR. TRALDI: It will be about five minutes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed.
24 MR. TRALDI: Thank you.
25 Re-examination by Mr. Traldi:
1 Q. Sir, at temporary transcript, page 56, Mr. Lukic asked you
2 whether you were lined up Ljubija stadium in two lines or four lines.
3 And could we have 1D00812, page 3, paragraph 5, the statement that
4 Mr. Lukic showed you.
5 And once that comes up - again 1D00812, page 3 - I would just ask
6 you to take a moment, review that paragraph that he showed you, and tell
7 the Judges whether you were discussing the Ljubija stadium at that point
8 or you were discussing the time that you were captured.
9 A. Excuse me, which paragraph?
10 Q. Sorry, sir. Paragraph 5.
11 A. Okay. I'm sorry, I touched it with my finger unintentionally.
12 Q. Perhaps it would help if I pointed you --
13 A. So what's unclear about it? Everything stands as it is.
14 Q. I'm asking you a very simp question. Mr. Lukic suggested to you
15 that at this point you were talking about the lines at the stadium and
16 I'm asking you were you in fact in this paragraph talking about being put
17 into the four lines when you were captured in the forest.
18 A. Correct, correct. That is where the four lines were. Good of
19 you to remember that.
20 Q. And it was the stadium where you were put into two lines, wasn't
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Now, at different times during cross-examination, Mr. Lukic asked
24 you about armed resistance at Hambarine and suggested some of the victims
25 at the Ljubija stadium were in the Territorial Defence. I have only two
1 focussed questions for you in this respect.
2 First, beginning when your group was taken to Miska Glava Dom --
3 A. Excuse me, can you please repeat what you just said?
4 Q. Sure.
5 A. I didn't understand.
6 Q. At some points during cross-examination, Mr. Lukic asked you
7 about fighting in Hambarine; do you remember that?
8 A. Yes. But he mentioned the wrong day when he was speaking about
9 it. I could only have spoken about this initial attack on the
10 check-point, but not on the attack the following day. I could only have
11 spoken about the shells hitting the houses because I was able to see that
12 from the town. I was running to the Rizvanovici check-point, and I was
13 able to see from there where the shells were landing.
14 As for the other thing, I'm not sure.
15 Q. And, sir, I only have two very focussed questions.
16 From -- beginning when your group was taken to Miska Glava Dom
17 and ending at the time that you escaped from the bus, did you see anyone
18 in your group holding a weapon?
19 A. I didn't understand you at all. I am confused. Can you please
21 Q. Sure, and I'll take it very slowly. Your group was captured in
22 the forest and then taken to Miska Glava Dom; do you recall that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So from that point when you got to the Dom, through when you were
25 taken to the stadium and on the bus to Kipe, in that entire time, did you
1 see anyone in your group holding a weapon?
2 A. No, no. Nobody. They didn't even have ID cards or money.
3 Everything had been seized from them.
4 Q. And, Your Honours, that completes my examination.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.
6 The Bench has no further questions for you.
7 Mr. Lukic, I see that the re-examination has not triggered any
8 need for any further questions.
9 Mr. Karagic, this concludes your testimony in this Court. We'd
10 like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having
11 answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the
12 Bench, and we wish you a safe return home again.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm sorry for all these
14 things that I don't understand. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE ORIE: In -- is there any matter remaining? I don't think
18 so. There's the chart. Is still --
19 Mr. Lukic, are you already in a position, or would you rather
20 take your time before you express the final opinion about the chart?
21 MR. LUKIC: I would rather take my time. So if I analyse it
22 properly, maybe I can change my mind.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you give us a time estimate on how much
24 time it would take you to analyse it properly? Is that a matter of --
25 MR. LUKIC: During the weekend.
1 JUDGE ORIE: During the weekend.
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, that's even more than I expected. So we'll hear
4 from you early next week. Let's say not later than by Tuesday. Is that
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll deal with that.
8 I have a few matters which I would like to raise in the few
9 remaining minutes.
10 First, in an e-mail of the 20th of February, the Chamber was
11 informed of an agreement between the parties to replace Exhibit D124,
12 under seal, with a redacted version of the same document and that was due
13 to restrictions on this document pursuant to Rule 70.
14 MR. GROOME: That is correct, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I just wondered whether I had ...
16 MR. GROOME: The exhibit number is correct and the reason is
17 correct as well, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Then the next matter I'd like to deal with is MFI D1 ...
20 Yes, Madam Registrar, you are hereby instructed to replace the
21 unredacted version of D124 by the redacted version.
22 The next item deals with D198, MFI'd. Defence Exhibit 198 was
23 MFI'd on the 8th of February during the testimony of Anthony Banbury due
24 to a missing translation. In e-mail of the 20th of February, 2013, the
25 Defence notified the Chamber that it had uploaded a translation into
1 e-court under doc ID 1D02-3163.
2 Madam Registrar, you are hereby instructed to attach the
3 translation to MFI D198, and the Chamber admits into evidence D198 under
5 Next item concerns Defence Exhibit 170, marked for
6 identification, with Witness RM009. D170 was MFI'd during the testimony
7 of Witness RM009 on the 4th of February of this year due to the lack of
8 an English translation. This is to be found at transcript page 8033.
9 In an e-mail of the 20th of February, the Defence notified the
10 Chamber that it had uploaded an English translation in e-court under doc
11 ID 1D02-3164.
12 Madam Registrar, the Chamber hereby instructs you to attach the
13 translation to D170, and the Chamber admits D170 into evidence, under
14 seal. Any other matters?
15 MR. GROOME: Not from the Prosecution, Your Honour.
16 MR. LUKIC: Defence has nothing today, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 Then let me ...
19 Then we will adjourn, and I lost my little note, but it will be
20 until Monday.
21 We adjourn until Monday, the 25th of February, at 9.30 in the
22 morning, in this same courtroom, I.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.11 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day of
25 February, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.