Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9072

 1                           Thursday, 21 February 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 7     IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We have a problem with the audio.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's not -- let me see.  Yes, it seems to

11     be ... I'm not quite sure.

12             Madam Registrar, could you speak a few more words to see whether

13     I receive ...

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Can you hear me now?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I can hear you now.  Not very loudly, but I'll

16     manage.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There are no preliminaries, as I understand.

19     Therefore, the witness may be escorted in the courtroom.

20             Meanwhile, if the Prosecution could file the report on an

21     incident which took place last week in closed session, it's invited to do

22     so.

23             MR. GROOME:  We do have that, Your Honour, and we will file it

24     later on today.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

Page 9073

 1             Further, I noticed that, on the basis of a decision given

 2     yesterday by the Trial Chamber, the Defence would have additional time to

 3     prepare because there would be no session on -- no hearing on Friday.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Now if you are efficient today - and I'm addressing

 6     both parties - then you might enjoy that advantage.  If it goes, as I

 7     read it went yesterday at the end of the session, then you might have to

 8     be in court on Friday anyhow to finish the witnesses still on our list

 9     for this week.

10             Good morning, Witness.  Please be seated, Mr. Brennskag.  I

11     apologise for mispronouncing your name.

12             First of all, I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by

13     the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony,

14     and Mr. Stojanovic will now continue his cross-examination.

15                           WITNESS:  PER ANTON BRENNSKAG [Resumed]

16             THE WITNESS:  Excuse me, could it be a little bit louder here.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There is apparently -- it must be ...

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Is your audio better now?

20             THE WITNESS:  It's a little bit too weak.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it better now?

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we can continue.  Mine is fine as well.

24             Mr. Stojanovic.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

Page 9074

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.  If you remember, we left off

 3     with a document yesterday which is number 65 ter 10158.  It's a document

 4     under seal, and I would advise, out of abundance of caution, for it not

 5     to be broadcast.  Can we please have page 4 in the B/C/S and page 3 in

 6     the English.  We need the next page in English, please.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I have no page in English at all.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 3.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I have two pages in B/C/S.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So page 3 in the English.  Thank

11     you.

12        Q.   Sir, if you recall, this is a document entitled:  "Report on

13     on-site forensic investigation."  We're talking about the incident which

14     happened on Geteova Street, number 12, on 22nd June 1995.

15             If you remember, I asked you yesterday if you remember that, on

16     that occasion, it was established that the projectile came from the west,

17     270 degrees, azimuth?

18        A.   It's stated in the document in front of me, yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at the same document under 65 ter,

20     only we need page 9 in B/C/S and 8 in English.  We also looked at it

21     yesterday.  It was a report on the forensic investigation of the traces

22     of explosion conducted on the 17th of July, 1995.

23             Let's first look at page 7 in the English, because, here, we only

24     have signatures.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you give us the 65 ter number of the document,

Page 9075

 1     please, Mr. Stojanovic.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's the same number,

 3     65 ter 10158.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Now, in this report, there's something different stated, and

 5     there's a different opinion expressed.  And they say that the direction

 6     from which the projectile came corresponds to the azimuth of

 7     250 plus/minus 10 degrees, and that was established on the

 8     22nd of June, 1995, during an on-site investigation.

 9             Now my question is this:  Do you have any recollection of that

10     azimuth value of the projectile, according to what you found out at the

11     scene, was 270 west, as stated in the forensic report, or 250,

12     plus/minus 10, as written here in this report?

13        A.   I see what it is stated in this report in front of me.  Yesterday

14     also I said what I can remember from other report that I have never seen

15     afterwards, and I referred to my statement on -- from the 10th -- from

16     2010, October 2010.  And, as far as I know, we agreed that the projectile

17     was coming from west.

18        Q.   Can we please now look at Exhibit P992, paragraph 44.  That's

19     this witness's statement.

20             Among other things, you say in this paragraph the following:

21             "At the place of impact, we were unable to decide where the

22     modified air bomb had come from.  What I'm trying to say is that we were

23     unable to establish the point of origin of the modified air bomb."

24             My question is:  Does this refresh your memory; and during the

25     investigation were you able, at any point, to establish an accurate

Page 9076

 1     direction from which the air -- modified air bomb arrived?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, would you, in your question, please

 3     make a clear distinction between the direction of origin and the origin

 4     of the projectile.  That is two -- are two different things.  So,

 5     therefore, for the witness to say, Does this refresh your memory, when

 6     you're talking about something different, doesn't assist.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   So can you tell us now, in more precise term, if your memory is

10     better after looking at these documents, why did you have a problem in

11     deciding the origin of this projectile?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, origin is from which location it is fired,

13     Mr. Stojanovic.  Direction of origin is from which direction it flew in

14     when -- before impact.

15             You can't just deal with the two as if they were the same.  And I

16     tried to explain that to you after your last question, but you may not

17     have understood.

18             So please, first, think about your next question, and then put it

19     to the witness.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I know the

21     difference.  I was just using the terminology from paragraph 44 drafted

22     by this witness.  And I asked him to explain why he said:

23             "We were not able to decide where it had come from."

24             What were they not able to decide?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The point of origin, as is clearly explained in the

Page 9077

 1     statement, what we now have.  The witness has testified today it came

 2     from the west.  We have one report which says 270 degrees azimuth which

 3     is perfectly west.  Then we have another report which says 250 plus or

 4     minus 10 which is almost west.

 5             Now, please, put the next question such that the Chamber is

 6     assisted by the information you are eliciting from this witness.  And

 7     don't start explaining again.  Please follow the guidance.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please, then, look at

 9     65 ter document 10158, page 11.  It's a map.

10             Thank you.  Can we please zoom in the middle part of the map, to

11     the right where the point of landing of this projectile is marked,

12     according to the report.

13        Q.   Can you, on the basis of this map, confirm whether, according to

14     what you established, the location was precisely plotted in the map with

15     regard to the direction from which the shell came, which is, as

16     explained, this blackened horizontal line leading towards Stup?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- if you give the Chamber a map, if you have a

18     place plotted, it's not very clear here, but I think I've -- the problem

19     is a bit that everything is black and white.  But let's just assume that

20     we have found the plotted place.  Then to draw lines at 270 degrees,

21     every child in the second year of primary school could do it, and,

22     therefore, please trust that the Chamber is able to do it as well.

23             I mean, 270 degrees is 270 degrees.  250 degrees is 250 degrees.

24     It's -- please put questions to the witness which can assist the Chamber.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9078

 1        Q.   Sir, do you agree, by looking at this map, that the area of

 2     Rajlovac, a part which is also from the west from the place where the

 3     shell landed?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  First, do you find the place, Rajlovac?

 5             THE WITNESS:  I don't see exactly the name Rajlovac.  I never

 6     seen this map before, and the point where the impact is, it can be fairly

 7     correct, and I only remember from our investigation that we stated it was

 8     coming from west.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

10             Now, Mr. Stojanovic, you apparently you find Rajlovac.  No one --

11     at least the witness has not found it yet.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,

13     please look at the central part of the map, and you'll find it in the

14     upper central part, the name Rajlovac.

15        Q.   And, sir, you mentioned it in your statement as well.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I have a -- I -- I -- we see it -- if you

17     could, please, Witness, have a look, Rajlovac at the very top of the map,

18     approximately in the middle, to the right of what seems to be a bending

19     road.  Have you found it?

20             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I found it.  And I know where Rajlovac railway

21     station it.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, the point of impact, it's not entirely

23     clear.  Is that Alipasino Polje, that area, Mr. -- the marking is not

24     very clear.  Could you also ... yes.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 9079

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Just for my understanding, Mr. Stojanovic,

 2     from approximately the place where the impact is marked, it's very

 3     difficult to see on this map, but Rajlovac where it is written, seems to

 4     be approximately at -- well, north -- north-west.  If it is west, then

 5     you have to provide me with better maps, because from what I can see now,

 6     it seems to be north-west.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Which is at 315 azimuth.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we agree that it's

10     north-west.  And also that it's 250 plus/minus 10.  When we received this

11     map --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I do not -- I do not agree with that.  North-west is

13     not 250 plus or minus 10.  250 is south -- slightly south of west, and

14     coming close from the south to westerly direction.  What I see here is,

15     rather, north-west, which is ...

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's a translation

17     issue.  I said 290.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, north-west, Mr. Stojanovic, is not 290.  As I

19     just said, it's 315; because the difference between 270 and 360 is

20     90 degrees, so you have to add 45 to 270 to arrive at north-west.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Can we look at 65 ter document 10158, page 28, and page 27 in the

23     English version.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9080

 1        Q.   Sir, this is a statement taken from one of the eye-witnesses of

 2     the flight and the impact of the shell.  In this statement, the witness

 3     says that at one point he heard a buzzing sound coming from the direction

 4     of Ahatovici and Rajlovac.  Shortly after that, he heard a loud

 5     detonation as a result of the explosion on Geteova Street, number 12, and

 6     wounded the witness.

 7             All I'm asking you now is:  After you have seen these documents,

 8     do you allow for a possibility that this shell had came from

 9     northwesterly direction?  Whereas, we say that it came from the direction

10     of Brijesce Brdo?

11        A.   Again, I have never seen this part of the document, and I'm not

12     sure of the time.  It's dated 1715, the 22nd of June.  And I'm not sure

13     this is the same impact that we are talking about.  Because, as far as I

14     remember, it could be -- it was earlier when we investigated.  But I'm

15     not sure.

16             But I can -- directly to the question, I can't answer.  I -- I

17     don't have any information that can -- that I can confirm this.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am going to

20     offer document 65 ter 10158 to be entered into evidence as a Defence

21     exhibit.

22             MR. SHIN:  No objections, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 10158 receives number D240,

25     Your Honours.

Page 9081

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  D240 is admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3        Q.   And I will finish with the questions relating to your observation

 4     of the overflight of the shell that hit the RTV building on the

 5     22nd June 1995.  That's paragraph 52 of your statement.  And let me put a

 6     very brief question to you.

 7             Would we be right if we say that you saw the flight of this

 8     projectile going over the PTT building and landed by hitting the RTV

 9     building?

10        A.   That day I was -- I was in the morning I was in the observation

11     post, OP-4, and we observed the projectile with a smoke-tail.  And

12     afterwards, we registrated an impact in the TV building.  If it was

13     directly across the PTT building, or close to or near it, it's difficult

14     to me to -- to recognise now, but it looks like it did, yes.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now have 1D796 in

17     e-court.  It's a statement of an observer called Thomas Hansen.

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at page 3,

20     where the witness, who, according to his own words, was there with

21     another observer in the vicinity of the TV building says:

22             "I was informed by an UNMO who had seen the shelling of the TV

23     building that this particular bomb that impacted the TV building was

24     fired from the BiH side.  Another UNMO who heard the bomb told me that

25     the bomb only flew for a short period, so that fitted with the findings

Page 9082

 1     of the first UNMO that the bomb was fired from the BH-held territory."

 2             Then he goes on to say that he sent his report about this events

 3     to his superiors by secure means.

 4        Q.   I'm asking you this:  Can you tell the Chamber from which

 5     position was this modified bomb, as you call it, was fired?

 6        A.   Your Honour, I have never seen this report during my time in --

 7     in Bosnia.  I was shown it first here.  I think it was in 2010.  And it's

 8     difficult for me to discuss another UNMO's observations about it.  I'm

 9     only sure what I was observing from my observation post, but --

10     Observation Post 4.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could I just briefly go back to

12     the -- the previous issue we dealt with and which led to some confusion

13     among the Judges.

14             You showed us a black and white map saying that the point of

15     impact has been marked there.  Who marked that?  Where does that document

16     come from?  It may be that I missed something, but ... you remember, the

17     black and white --

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, if I may, just

19     one moment.  We'll respond straight away, and then, with your leave,

20     we'll return to this one.  10158 would be the document number.  And could

21     I please have page 10 of that document; 10158 and page 10 of this

22     document.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Why -- it was not clear to me that it was part

24     of a -- of a -- of a broader document.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 9083

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, yes.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

 3        Q.   I shall go back to the question that I've already put to you.

 4             Sir, after having seen this statement of Mr. Hansen's -- and

 5     could we please have that in e-court once again; that is, document 1D796,

 6     page 3 of the document.

 7             Could you tell me the following:  When you say that this modified

 8     bomb came from the direction of Ilidza, could you tell us what the

 9     distance of the firing point was from the RTV building?

10        A.   I can't remember the -- the exact distance between the Ilidza

11     area and the TV building, so I -- I need a map with a certain scale to --

12     to figure it out.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, I

14     would like to tender this document, and then I shall also be tendering

15     the map of the area.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin.

17             MR. SHIN:  Yes, Your Honours, we would object because this is a

18     statement and that -- neither comports with the requirements under 92 bis

19     or 92 ter.  Furthermore, the passage that has been cited refers to

20     another unnamed UNMO.  This -- this is perhaps a matter the Defence can

21     take up later.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.  First issue is whether this is a

23     statement which was -- is unfit to be admitted, in view of Rules 92 bis,

24     92 ter.  Could you first respond to that.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a statement

Page 9084

 1     that was given to us by the Prosecution.  It was obtained by the

 2     Prosecution.  It was signed by the witness who gave it, and all the

 3     cautions are there on page 4.  And this statement was used in the

 4     Milosevic case.  It was in evidence.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, the case law of this Tribunal is

 6     that if you want to have admitted into evidence a statement of a witness

 7     which was taken for the purposes of this Tribunal, that you then need the

 8     attestations, as Rule 92 bis and 92 ter require.  Where are the

 9     attestations?

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have the

11     statement in the form in which it was given to us.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Attestations, it means if you disclose a document,

13     it doesn't mean that it is already fit to be admitted into evidence.  We

14     have, I take it, hundred, if not thousands of statements, but only if you

15     want to introduce them into evidence, you need the attestations by the

16     witness taken by an officer assigned for these purposes or by any other

17     authorised person.  These are the Rules of this Tribunal.

18             Therefore, that it comes from the Prosecution doesn't seem to be

19     an answer.  That it is a statement doesn't seem to be an answer to my

20     question either.  Do you have any attestation?  If not, you have to

21     consider whether there are ways to have this document admitted into

22     evidence, if you think it to be important.

23             Admission is denied.

24             Please proceed.

25             Admission is denied.  Please proceed.

Page 9085

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  We don't have

 2     any different statement.  We took --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, first of all, the decision has

 4     already been taken, so if you want to further think about it, you can do

 5     it whenever it pleases you to do so.

 6             Second - but that's another matter - the question you put to this

 7     witness was totally useless.  Why is it, because it is stated here only

 8     fired from Ilidza, which is a -- well, not a huge area, but at least it

 9     does not give much clue of where exactly it came from.  And therefore to

10     say, What is the distance from here to the area of Belgium.  That is also

11     a question.  One answer could be 600 kilometres.  Another answer could be

12     150 kilometres, depending on where you are in Belgium.

13             Your question came down to the same.  Therefore, the question

14     didn't assist us, and the decision has been taken that not through this

15     witness, in this way, you can have this document admitted.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Then I

18     shall conclude my cross-examination of this witness for today.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

20             Mr. Shin, is there any need for re-examination?

21             MR. SHIN:  Yes, just very quickly.  Perhaps five minutes, a

22     little bit more.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.  Well, forget about a little bit more

24     and think about the five-minutes.

25             MR. SHIN:  Yes.

Page 9086

 1                           Re-examination by Mr. Shin:

 2        Q.   Mr. Brennskag, my first question for you is you had stated in

 3     paragraph 52 of your amalgamated statement regarding the TV building that

 4     you had observed the modified air bomb coming from Ilidza.  Today, when

 5     you explained that it came from the west, in your mind, is that what you

 6     mean, that it came from Ilidza as stated in your amalgamated statement?

 7        A.   No, when I said west, it was talking about the first -- the --

 8     the 22nd of June in Alipasino Polje, as I understood.  The TV building,

 9     I -- I was in OP and we saw it came from Ilidza area.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Brennskag.  And going to that Alipasino Polje

11     incident, if we turn to paragraph 45 of your amalgamated statement, we

12     see in the third sentence:

13             "Crater analysis showed that this air bomb had come from the

14     direction of Ilidza."

15             Do you stand by that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Turning now to --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just ask you the following:  If you say it

19     came from Ilidza, that is a rather imprecise observation.  Would you

20     agree with that, because Ilidza could be the north edge of Ilidza, the

21     southern edge of Ilidza.

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes, of course.  We couldn't state exactly from

23     where in Ilidza area it was coming.  But it was from the direction from

24     Ilidza area.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Which still gives quite a range --

Page 9087

 1             THE WITNESS:  From the investigation's team point of view, yes.

 2     But as I stated, it was confirmed from my fellow UNMO observers that was

 3     in the observation post at the same time and reported the -- the

 4     improvised projectile, it came from Ilidza area, BSA area.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Because they had seen that.  Is that how I have to

 6     understand --

 7             THE WITNESS:  They saw this and reported it, yes, as far as I

 8     know.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And you can see it because it leaves a trace in the

10     area visible.

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. SHIN:

15        Q.   And my last question, Mr. Brennskag, just a point of

16     clarification:  Yesterday you were asked about the intensity of the

17     fighting in June of 1995.  You had responded that there were around 150

18     impacts inside Sarajevo.  If we turn to paragraph 31 of your amalgamated

19     statement that figure of 150 impacts, that -- you indicate that was

20     within a 24-hour period.  Just so we're clear, would that be correct that

21     your talking about that volume within a 24-hour period?

22        A.   Yes, assumption that that is within 24 hours.

23        Q.   Okay, thank you very much.

24             MR. SHIN:  No further questions, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Shin.

Page 9088

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Moloto has a question for you.

 3                           Questioned by the Court:

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Brennskag can you have a look at your

 5     statement, that is P992, at paragraph 2.  There's been quite a bit of

 6     talk about direction and origin of fire.

 7             If you look at the last sentence in your -- in that paragraph 2,

 8     it says:

 9             "Through crater analysis it is possible to determine a

10     projectile's point of origin, direction of fire, and the type of

11     projectile that was used."

12             Now, right through your statement, you have not been able to give

13     us a point of origin.  You've given us direction.  Do you have any

14     comment to make on that sentence?

15        A.   Yes.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  With respect to point of origin.

17        A.   Yes.  Could you please say again which para.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Paragraph 2, very last sentence.

19        A.   Yes.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it correct that you are able to determine point

21     of origin through crater analysis?

22        A.   Normally, yes, with ballistic missiles.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But don't you need to know another variation which

24     is the charge?

25        A.   Yeah.  But you could -- normally if you have the -- the -- if you

Page 9089

 1     could -- if it was a rest of the projectile, and you could estimate angle

 2     from the -- then you can estimate the point of origin.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I would like to ask a follow-up question of

 5     that.

 6             Would you agree with me that you fire a -- for example, a mortar,

 7     you have the same angle of descent, you have the same direction of the

 8     origin of fire, that, depending on the propelling charge used, it could

 9     have come from various locations, all on that same line of the direction

10     of the origin of fire?

11        A.   It's --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You also could do it in a different way.

13             If I'm sitting here, when I'm firing a mortar from here, if I use

14     zero charge, or a zero plus four, or a zero plus six charge, the shell

15     will land in a different place.  Propelling charge, not explosive charge

16     of the body of the projectile but a propelling charge used.

17             Are you familiar with that --

18        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with that.  Always, the projectile must have

19     a -- a -- what do you call it ... I can't find the English word.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  If you describe it, perhaps we could assist you.

21        A.   I -- I mean, as far as I remember, it's -- should be possible to

22     estimate the point of -- not exactly but the point of origin, if you

23     could see the -- the elevation angle, the projectile was hitting the

24     ground.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The angle of descent.

Page 9090

 1        A.   Yes, angle of descent.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]... yes.  I just --

 3        A.   Because it always has a ballistic curve.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5        A.   And the ballistic curve, you could find out with all the -- is --

 6     descent angle or elevation angle from where it was fired.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm afraid - and I just put that to you that

 8     many experts take a different position, to be quite honest - almost all

 9     experts take a different position.  Meaning that if you know under what

10     angle of descent a projectile has landed, then it depends on the firing

11     charge when it was fired from nearby, or whether it is fired from further

12     away with more propelling charge or even from -- again, further away with

13     a stronger propelling charge.

14        A.   Okay.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  But I just wanted in all fairness to put that to

16     you, that your opinion and that it comes down to an opinion, I would

17     rather say, might not be [Overlapping speakers] ...

18        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ... Your Honour, I'm not an expert in it.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

20             Any questions triggered by the questions put by the Bench?

21             If not, Mr. Brennskag -- yes.  Mr. Brennskag, this then concludes

22     your testimony in this Court.  I would like to thank you very much for --

23             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.

24             JUDGE ORIE: -- coming to The Hague and for having answered all

25     the questions that were put to you.  I wish you a safe return home again.

Page 9091

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  For the next witness to be called, as far as

 3     protective measures are concerned, Mr. Groome.

 4             MR. GROOME:  I believe there are protective measures of pseudonym

 5     and image distortion.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That's all.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Nothing more than that, I don't think, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's clear.  I just want to be certain about

 9     it.  Then I wonder what would be the best way to proceed.  Whether we

10     should take an early break and then start with the testimony of the

11     witness.  And then I think the assessment, Prosecution half an hour?

12     Yes.  And then, Mr. Stojanovic, will you deal with the witness?

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  My colleague

14     Mr. Lukic is going to examine the witness.  And our assessment was two

15     and a half hours, I believe.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that may then be rather tight.  If we cannot

17     make it today, then we'll have to continue tomorrow.  If we are able

18     to -- to conclude the testimony of the witness today, the tomorrow's

19     session will be cancelled.

20             We take a break and we resume at 20 minutes to 11.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We briefly move into private session.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 9092











11 Page 9092 redacted. Private session.















Page 9093

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 8             The witness has asked whether an accompanying person could be in

 9     the courtroom when he gives his testimony.  That request is granted.  The

10     witness may be brought into the courtroom.

11             Further, I'm -- perhaps I should have asked Mr. Shin to be

12     present as well.  But in relation to the previous witness,

13     Mr. Stojanovic, the Chamber would highly appreciate if the parties could

14     reach an agreement on -- let me see exactly what was the street name of

15     the street, at number 12 where the impact was.  Let me just see.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Geteova, Your Honour, number 12.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The 22nd of June.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  yes, Geteova.  Yes, if the parties could agree where

20     that is and mark that, perhaps, on a map, because the Chamber was -- it

21     was very difficult to discern any marking on this black and white map

22     which we found in -- as part of a report.

23             MR. GROOME:  If I could ask Mr. Stojanovic to be available to

24     meet Mr. Shin at the next break and hopefully we can resolve that today.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, finally, there was an issue ...

Page 9094

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  There was an issue about submissions in relation to

 3     Witness RM055.  There is e-mail exchanges -- there are e-mail exchanges

 4     which have some substance.  Therefore, the Chamber would invite the

 5     parties, first of all, to verify whether in every respect the Prosecution

 6     and the Defence, in their e-mails, are referring to the same documents.

 7     And after that has been verified, then to file the content of the

 8     e-mails, and the Chamber will then decide.  It is about associated

 9     exhibits in relation to Witness RM055.

10                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Traldi.

13             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honour, just one brief preliminary matter

14     regarding this witness, which is, yesterday we informed the parties and

15     the Chamber that his support person would only be available until 1.30.

16     We've been told that the Defence may need their full two and a half

17     hours.  The support person, while it is difficult for him, is willing to

18     stay until 2.15, if absolutely necessary.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll -- we were informed about that.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Witness.  I do understand that there's

22     no need for protective measures, so, therefore, we'll call you by your

23     own name, Mr. Karagic.

24             Before you give evidence, the Rules will require that you make a

25     solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you.  Could you please

Page 9095

 1     make that solemn declaration.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Good morning,

 3     Your Honours.  Good morning to everyone.

 4             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

 5     and nothing but the truth.

 6                           WITNESS:  NERMIN KARAGIC

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Karagic.

 9             Mr. Karagic, you are accompanied by a person of trust to you.

10     Madam Registrar, may I take it that the name of the person of trust

11     accompanying the witness has been -- is somewhere in the record or

12     otherwise.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, I was not informed about the name

14     of the support person.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you -- could you please, at any moment

16     today, just write down your personal details and then give it to the

17     Registrar.  Your role is mainly - and I'm addressing you -  well, ... is

18     the person of trust, is he able to follow the proceedings?  I have some

19     doubts.  Is he on the right channel?  Could you please check.

20             Could I just verify whether can you hear me in a language you

21     understand?

22             No.  Could the -- could the audio be checked for the person of

23     trust.  Whatever solution, but -- so that he can hear me.

24             Well, is it not the volume?  We all had problems this morning

25     with channel and volume.

Page 9096

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Can you hear me in a language you understand?

 3             I'm not addressing you at this moment, Mr. Karagic.

 4             But I'm addressing you.  Can you now hear me?  Yes.  Yes.  Thank

 5     you.  Your role is limited to giving the witness comfortable feeling to

 6     be in this court, knowing that you are nearby, and that you hear and see

 7     everything that happens in this courtroom.  Your role is not to intervene

 8     in any way.  That is clear to you, I see.  You're nodding.

 9             Mr. Traldi, are you ready?

10             MR. TRALDI:  [Microphone not activated]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Karagic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Traldi.

12     Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution and you will find him to your

13     right.

14                           Examination by Mr. Traldi:

15        Q.   Good morning, sir.  Could you state your name for the record.

16        A.   Nermin Karagic.

17        Q.   And I understand this morning you've chosen to testify publicly.

18     If there's any particular topic you wish we go into private for, would

19     you inform us and inform the Chamber.

20             And, sir, if you say your answers out loud, it will be best for

21     the record.

22        A.   Yes.  It's clear, I understand.

23        Q.   Then I'd ask the Court Officer to call 65 ter 28480 to our

24     screens.  And, sir, do you recall testifying before this Tribunal before,

25     in the Stakic trial?

Page 9097

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   And did you review the transcript of your testimony in that

 3     previous trial, in preparation to testify today, and in a language that

 4     you understand?

 5        A.   Yes, I read it in its entirety.  And I also listened to the audio

 6     recording and read a hard copy as well.

 7        Q.   And now that you have sworn to tell the truth today, do you

 8     affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of your previous testimony?

 9        A.   I can confirm.

10             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours, I'd tendered 65 ter 28480 into

11     evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

12             MR. LUKIC:  No objections.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28480 receives number P998,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  P998 is admitted into evidence.

17             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours, there are two associated

18     exhibits:  65 ter 13124 and 13172.  65 ter 13124 and 13172, both of which

19     I'd tendered at this time.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.  No objections.

21             Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 13124 receives number P999, and document

23     13172 receives number P1000.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  P999 and P1000 are admitted into evidence.

25             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours, I'll now briefly summarise the

Page 9098

 1     witness's evidence for the public.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you explained to the witness the purpose of

 3     this?

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   And, sir, you understand that this is not evidence, simply a

 6     summary for the benefit of the public?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  And I apologise to the court reporter because of

 9     this morning's proceedings.  They don't have a copy so I'll try to be

10     very, very slow.

11             Nermin Karagic survived massacres at Ljubija stadium and Kipe

12     mine charged at schedules A 6.7 and A 6.8 of the indictment.  And that

13     completes the public summary.

14             And I will have a few brief questions about the witness's

15     evidence now.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   Sir, before we discuss what happened in 1992 I want to address

19     one ancillary matter.  Were you arrested for driving under the influence

20     of alcohol in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1999?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And were you convicted of that as well?

23        A.   Yes, I was, although I was not drunk.

24        Q.   And -- and were you injured when you were arrested?

25        A.   Yes, I was beaten up.

Page 9099

 1        Q.   And did you first tell the Office of the Prosecutor about that in

 2     October of last year, 2012?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And, finally, in this respect, you just affirmed that you told

 5     the truth in your previous testimony.  Do you intend to do so again

 6     today?

 7        A.   Yes, I will do so.

 8        Q.   Now I want to take you back to the summer of 1992.  And on page 7

 9     of Exhibit P998, you talk about going into hiding after the attack on

10     Hambarine.  When did you first go into hide, if you remember?

11        A.   I think that it's -- started at that time, that that was when I

12     started going into hiding.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness be kind enough to move closer

14     to the mike.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you come a bit closer to the microphone.  The

16     interpreters have difficulties in hearing you.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that it started at the

18     time when Hambarine was attacked, when I started hiding.  Although, even

19     before that, I didn't dare go to town because I was tried -- I was trying

20     to evade being served call-up papers.

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   And on page 9 of P998 you talk about trying with a group of

23     people to go to the free territory.  Was that in July of 1992?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd ask that 65 ter 16502 be called to

Page 9100

 1     our screens.  It is a report dated 18 July 1992.

 2        Q.   And, sir, you talk about being captured when you tried to go to

 3     the free territory.  This document is dated 18 July 1992 and on page 2,

 4     in both the English and B/C/S, it says that as of July 1992, there was no

 5     large-scale combat between Serb forces and forces fighting against them.

 6             I have only one focussed question about this.  Were you aware of

 7     any large-scale combat between the Serb army and Muslim forces in

 8     Prijedor municipality around the time you were captured?

 9        A.   Yes, yes, I heard shells falling down on the day before I was

10     sent to Ljubija -- or, actually, it was on the same day.  People were

11     calling each other, let's go into fighting, explosions were heard, and

12     then we were collected at that place and sent away to Ljubija.

13        Q.   I have two questions about your answer.  First, when you say yes,

14     you were aware of combat, were you aware of shelling by Serb forces, or

15     were you aware of combat between Serb forces that were fighting and

16     Muslim forces that were fighting against them?

17        A.   Well, I am not aware of there being any Muslim forces.  I just

18     heard the shells, and I heard them calling each other to go into combat.

19     But we didn't have any forces.  Perhaps there may have been a small group

20     or two.

21        Q.   And when you say -- my second question.  When you say "I heard

22     them," did you hear Serbs calling each other to go into combat?

23        A.   Yes, yes.

24        Q.   And by this time, had people in your area of the Brdo region

25     already surrendered their weapons?

Page 9101

 1        A.   Well, yes.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'd tender 65 ter 16502 as the next

 3     public Prosecution exhibit.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I didn't see that anything was asked from this

 5     document.  There were no questions to the witness from the document.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  And I asked the witness specifically about whether

 8     he could confirm material on page 2 of both the English and the B/C/S.

 9     The Chamber has expressed a preference to have witnesses contextualise

10     documents and his comments are able to do that.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, would you object against it having bar tabled

12     in the context of the testimony of this witness, Mr. Lukic?

13             MR. LUKIC:  If it is bar table then we'll deal with it but --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm asking you now whether you would have any

15     objection against it being bar tabled.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

18             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... with this witness.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

20             MR. LUKIC:  He has nothing -- he has no knowledge about the

21     document.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  What -- I think the situation we find ourselves in

23     often is that a witness testifies about events which are described or are

24     dealt with in documents, even if the witness is not -- if he cannot

25     testify about the document, that, under those circumstances, we would not

Page 9102

 1     wait with bar tabling the document but, since there is some connection,

 2     to consider a document to be admitted from the bar table, which means not

 3     through the witness.  So, therefore, I did not fully understand your last

 4     objection.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, if it is bar tabled, I said we will deal

 6     with the document through the bar table response.  But we object to have

 7     this document introduced through this witness.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  My question now is whether since this deals directly

 9     with portions of the evidence of the witness whether you would oppose

10     against, I would say, an advanced bar table request for admission at this

11     moment in relation to this document.

12             MR. LUKIC:  We have to see the bar table motion, Your Honour, to

13     be able to respond to it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well ...

15             Mr. Traldi, is the way in which you tendered the document

16     important for you, or is it through the witness or bar tabled.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'd be happy to make an oral

18     application now to tender the document from the bar table if it would

19     suit the Chamber.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we will consider the matter during the next

21     break.  Madam Registrar, the document would be MFI'd under number ...

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 16502 receives P1001, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

24             Witness, don't be confused by all this.  These are legal matters.

25     We'll now continue to hear your testimony.

Page 9103

 1             Mr. Traldi.

 2             MR. TRALDI:

 3        Q.   Sir, I want to take you forward now to after you were captured

 4     and taken to Miska Glava Dom.  I have just a few very specific questions

 5     about that.

 6             First, at pages 19 and 20 of P998, you talk about a Serb asking

 7     for ten volunteers from Rizvanovici to come out.  And you tried to

 8     volunteer.  My question is:  What did you expect to happen?

 9        A.   Well, they said what would happen to them in advance.  While I

10     was in the doorway, I heard about the way that they would be eliminated.

11     They said that they were going to gouge their eyes out.  That's what I

12     heard from one man.  And, also, from another two men from Visegrad,

13     Cazin, a father and two sons were in our area, and also another guy who

14     fled from the JNA happened to be there, and I met him immediately before

15     that.

16        Q.   And so am I right to understand your answer that you expected to

17     be eliminated?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And, next, sir, do you know of any detainees who stayed behind at

20     Miska Glava Dom when you were taken away on the buses to Ljubija stadium?

21        A.   I was closer to the door, so I wasn't in a position to know

22     whether there were any people left behind.

23             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honour, I'd ask that the Court Officer

24     called 65 ter 27910 to our screens.

25        Q.   Sir, this document describes energetic action taken in the

Page 9104

 1     Ljubija area in late July 1992 by the Serb army, and I want to explore

 2     what that meant in practice.  First, after you, your father, and the

 3     other people in your group were captured, did you see soldiers in the

 4     Serb army?

 5        A.   I'm sorry, soldiers?  Can you please repeat the question.  I

 6     didn't hear you properly.

 7        Q.   Sure.  After you were captured and before you escaped at Kipe,

 8     did you see soldiers in the Serb army?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you mentioned specifically, on page 24 of P998, that the

11     6th Krajina Brigade was in Ljubija.  When did you first hear about them?

12        A.   I heard about them at Miska Glava.

13        Q.   And from who?

14        A.   From those who kept us in captivity.  The guards said, The

15     6th Krajina is coming.

16        Q.   And where else did you see soldiers after you were captured?

17        A.   After that incident?  Well, in Rakovcani and Rizvanovici where

18     they recaptured me.

19        Q.   Between when you were captured and when you escaped, did you see

20     soldiers in Ljubija town?

21        A.   Yes.  Didn't we say that?  Yes, I saw them.  Streets were crowded

22     with soldiers.

23        Q.   And did you see soldiers at the stadium?

24        A.   Some tried to enter the stadium, but those drove [indiscernible]

25     away.  They often started arguing because some of the soldiers wanted to

Page 9105

 1     participate in what was going to happen to us in the future.  But these

 2     men managed to chase them away and did it on their own.

 3        Q.   And at pages 28 and 32 of P998, you mentioned a major who was

 4     present at the stadium.  Did he appear to be in charge?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours, I'd ask that 65 ter 27910 be

 7     admitted into evidence as the next public Prosecution exhibit.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  We object.  Again, on the same grounds.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Same grounds.  Document will be MFI'd.

10             Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 27910 receives number P1002,

12     Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  P1002 is marked for identification.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   And, sir, while we're discussing the stadium, I'm going to ask

17     you only one very specific questions:  Of the other Muslims detained at

18     the stadium were any of them wearing military uniforms or were they all

19     in civilian clothes?

20        A.   They were all in civilian clothes.

21        Q.   And you mentioned at page 48 of P998 that after you escaped from

22     the bus, you met two Croats from Brisevo who showed you the way towards

23     Carakovo.  Did you later learn the name of either of those men?

24        A.   Yes, I did.  I was told that there was a man called Ivan.  But

25     when I was here in hotel, when I testified last time, that is when I met

Page 9106

 1     this Ivan, and I realised that it was the same person.

 2        Q.   And did you learn what his name was?

 3        A.   Yes.  I didn't know his full name, but when he told me where he

 4     was born, I immediately established a connection.  He couldn't believe

 5     that it was me and that I was so grown up now.  I must have been little

 6     at the time.

 7        Q.   And who -- who was that?  What was the name you learned.

 8        A.   Mr. Iva [as interpreted] Atlija.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours, I would ask that 65 ter 28748 be

10     called to our screens.  This is a chart of comments offered by

11     Witness RM045 regarding particular names read to him in preparation for

12     his testimony.  We gave notice on Tuesday morning that we would be using

13     such a chart in our e-mail.  Mr. Groome is, I think, prepared to make

14     larger submissions regarding the issue, if the Chamber wishes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's first hear whether there's any objection

16     against the use of the chart.

17             Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC:  I don't have it with my documents.  At all.

19             MR. TRALDI:  I do have a copy which I can provide to Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Please.

21             MR. TRALDI:  And I'd just note while looking at it the witness

22     made a hand sign a moment ago and may have been asking for a break, and

23     the Chamber could perhaps inquire in that respect.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Witness, what was it that you wanted to tell

25     us?

Page 9107

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I just noticed here that

 2     it's written "Iva Atlija," and the proper spelling would be "Ivo Atlija."

 3     I apologise.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No, it's appreciated that you are focussed.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we have that document on the screen.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  And, again, that's 28748.  And I'd just ask that it

 7     be called to all of our screens.  And this was provided to the Defence

 8     and the Chamber by e-mail at 4.31 p.m. yesterday.  I think we're awaiting

 9     Mr. Lukic's position at the moment.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

11             MR. LUKIC:  We really need more time to go through the document.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But it was disclosed to you on Tuesday, I do

13     understand?

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yesterday.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, there are two issues, Mr. Lukic.  The one

16     is whether we could continue and use the chart at this moment.  And the

17     second is whether you would need more time to see whether you want to ask

18     further questions about the substance of the chart.

19             The first question, I think, is the urgent one to be dealt with.

20             MR. LUKIC:  I think it would take too much of our time to go

21     through the document like this.  Then this is a practice that saves time

22     for the Prosecution, but puts additional burden on the Defence,

23     especially time-wise.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  If you need more time, then asked for it.  I mean,

25     the question is:  Do you oppose against a chart being used, or do you

Page 9108

 1     want this to be elicited in full in viva voce testimony or --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  We would prefer if witness can testify about these

 3     issues in -- viva voce.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Your objection against the use of the chart is

 6     denied.  Mr. Lukic, if you need further time at any point in time the

 7     Chamber would like to hear from you.

 8             Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   And, sir, in preparation for your testimony here, did you review

11     this list of names?

12        A.   Yes, I did.

13        Q.   And do the columns reflect comments you made regarding each

14     person?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   Did you review the document after you'd made comments?

17        A.   Yes, I did.  And I signed it.

18        Q.   And is that your signature on the left-hand side at the bottom?

19        A.   Yes, it is.

20        Q.   And were you satisfied that your comments were recorded

21     correctly?

22        A.   Hopefully I was.  Yes, I was.

23        Q.   And one of these men at number 2, Hare Crljenkovic, you say was

24     executed right before your turn would have come.  Why did you think you

25     were about to be executed?

Page 9109

 1        A.   I don't think I saw anyone else after him.  Maybe there were only

 2     two men standing against the wall, and Hare was on my right next to the

 3     wall.

 4        Q.   And did anyone say anything, then, that you remembered?

 5        A.   Yes.  While the four or five of them, I just happened to look and

 6     I saw him being killed by rifle-butts and -- I don't know.  I remember

 7     that while he was dying, he said, You, motherfuckers.  But I know that he

 8     couldn't move and I knew that they wanted to finish us off too, but they

 9     asked us whether we would be willing instead to carry the dead bodies and

10     that is what we did.  We took them and loaded them onto a bus.

11             MR. TRALDI:  And I'll postpone tendering this chart until after

12     cross-examination.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would you like it to be marked for

14     identification so that we now ...

15             MR. TRALDI:  I think that would be best, Your Honour, yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28748 receives number P1003

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P1002 is marked for identification.

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I made a mistake.  It's P1003 is marked for

22     identification.

23             MR. TRALDI:  And I'd ask that 65 ter 26287 be called to our

24     screens.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 9110

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   And, sir, while that is being called up, at page 4 of what is now

 3     P1003, you say Mustafa Karagic was taken out of Miska Glava Dom and was

 4     never seen again.  This document lists Mustafa Karagic as having died on

 5     25 July 1992 in Miska Glava.  Is it accurate, as far as you know?

 6        A.   Maybe he's precisely the person that was killed in front of the

 7     door.  It resembles his voice too.  When those ten volunteers -- I mean,

 8     those mentioned persons from Visegrad and Cazin.  That's when I heard the

 9     scream right in front of the door.

10        Q.   And --

11        A.   I think that that's where he died.  It resembles his voice most

12     of all.

13        Q.   And, sir, then is this document, which says he died at that time

14     in Miska Glava, accurate, as far as you know?

15        A.   Well, I know he was taken out and I know they closed the door

16     behind them.  I haven't seen this.  But I heard screams in front of the

17     door and I heard this sound ...

18        Q.   Did you ever see him alive again after that?

19        A.   No, no.  Never.  Never.

20             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 26287 as the next

21     public [Microphone not activated] Prosecution exhibit.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, any objection against admission of the

23     death certificate?

24             MR. LUKIC:  No, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

Page 9111

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 26287 receives number P1004,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P1004 is admitted.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   And, sir, in your testimony, now P998, you describe your capture,

 6     your mistreatment at Miska Glava Dom and the massacres in Ljubija stadium

 7     in Kipe that you survived.  How did these events impact you?

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly slow down for the interpreters, please.

 9     Thank you very much.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was hard for me.  My marriage

11     was doomed.  I have been having nightmares all these years.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   And do they continue to impact you today?

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15        Q.   And thank you, sir.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, that completes my examination.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

18             Mr. Lukic, are you ready to start your cross-examination?

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I am, Your Honours.  Just one minute to organise

20     myself.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Karagic, you will now be cross-examined by

22     Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Karagic.

25        A.   Good day.

Page 9112

 1        Q.   Did you do your regular military service?

 2        A.   In the JNA?  No.  No, I received call-up papers, and I refused to

 3     go to the army.

 4        Q.   Just a moment, please.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the following on

 6     our screens:  2848.  I assume that it is now P998.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  P998 is 28480.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I probably mispronounced them.

 9             [Interpretation] We need page 32.

10        Q.   This is the Stakic testimony that the Prosecution tendered as

11     your statement.  5235 is the transcript page.  Line 6, you provide the

12     following explanation:

13             [In English] "... he was a member of a military police.  I had

14     served in the army, so I know."

15        A.   I was in the BH army, if that's what you mean.  But, until then,

16     I had not known.  Now I know it's a military policeman.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] All right.  Where did you have an opportunity of

18     seeing a military policemen in the BH army?

19        A.   In Travnik.

20        Q.   What kind of shoulder straps did they have there, and belts?

21        A.   Well, white.

22        Q.   Now I'd like to ask you something.  We had some information here

23     that had to do with your date of birth.  Can you tell us when you were

24     born?

25        A.   The 28th of September, 1974.

Page 9113

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Invite you to make short pauses between question and

 2     answer and answer and question so that the interpreters can follow us.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5        Q.   You heard the Judge.  Since we speak the same language, we will

 6     have to pause between question and answer.

 7        A.   I forgot about that too.

 8        Q.   You say that you were in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Where

 9     and when were you a member of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10        A.   As soon as I reached Travnik, free territory that is, I was there

11     for about a month, a month and a half, then I went to Croatia.  And then

12     I spent some time there at the refugee centre; about a year and a half.

13     Then I went to Germany.  And then I was there for a year.  And then I

14     returned to the BH army.  And that's when I had military training too.

15        Q.   All right.  Now we are going to deal with some specific

16     incidents.  First, Hambarine briefly.

17             You were not present when that happened at the check-point in

18     Hambarine.  However, I'd like to ask you whether you heard who it was

19     that attacked who in Hambarine.

20        A.   Well, what I heard is quite different from what you claim.  I

21     mean, I read reports, and that's why I'm saying.  Also, on that day, the

22     very same moment, I heard about that, perhaps a few moments later only.

23     Somebody ran up from there and this information was provided.  I can't

24     remember exactly what was said, but if I understood it correctly these

25     young men were attacked on the road, whereas your side claims -- well, I

Page 9114

 1     cannot say.  I cannot say either this or that.  But I mean, whatever I

 2     was told was -- well, it so turns out that it was the other side that

 3     attacked.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, there's no need to refer to what you think

 5     the other party may claim.  Just tell us what you have seen and what you

 6     have observed and whether --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I'm sorry.  I get lost.

 8     I get carried away.  I mean, you know, this tragedy, because of that,

 9     because of this tragedy.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Although we may understand that, we'd invite

11     you very much to focus on what you've seen, what you know, and whether

12     that's consistent with others think they may have seen or may know is a

13     matter you should not be too concerned about.

14             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16        Q.   Did you hear that among the injured members of the

17     Army of Republika Srpska there were Croats too?

18        A.   No, I didn't hear about that.  I just know that there was this

19     Sikeric [phoen] in Hambarine and that he ended up in the hospital in

20     Prijedor.  I don't know.

21        Q.   All right.  As for the attack on Hambarine, did tanks

22     participate?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   How many tanks were there?

25        A.   Well, I don't know.  I don't know how many tanks there were.  I

Page 9115

 1     saw one.  That's what I can remember.  But what was -- well, I don't

 2     know.

 3        Q.   All right.  Let us please see 1D812 briefly in e-court.  We need

 4     page 2 in both versions because we need paragraph 2.

 5             This is the statement that you gave to the OTP in 1998.  In

 6     paragraph 2, you claim that three tanks took part in the attack.  Can you

 7     state your views on that?

 8        A.   Well, you see, I gave statements, but I don't remember having

 9     said that.  I don't know.  I don't know that I said that.  As far as I

10     can remember, I just saw one tank.  But how many there were actually, I

11     don't know.

12        Q.   Thank you.  In this same paragraph, you say:

13             "They took Hambarine within three hours.  There was no one there

14     to put up resistance."

15        A.   Well, relatively quickly.  Yeah, they took it relatively quickly.

16        Q.   So was there any resistance?

17        A.   I cannot say.  I mean, I hid.  I hid.  Because that was the first

18     time that I heard shells.  It was the first time in my life that I heard

19     this terrible thing.  I was shaking for a long time after that.

20        Q.   Do you know how many armed men there were in Hambarine, armed

21     Muslims?

22        A.   I don't know.

23        Q.   Do you know that eight days after this fighting an attack was

24     launched on the town of Prijedor from Hambarine?

25        A.   I know that for a long time shells could be heard at Kozarac,

Page 9116

 1     immediately, on the next day.

 2             Now, as far as Prijedor is concerned, they say the 30th of May.

 3     I heard shells there too, but I heard shells all the time in Kozarac too.

 4     So, well, I mean, I was not there personally.  I just heard this --

 5        Q.   Just tell us what it is that you know.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Did you personally take part in standing guard at check-points?

 8        A.   Yes.  At a check-point.

 9        Q.   All right.  A check-point.

10        A.   One, not more.

11        Q.   All of that happened before you underwent any kind of military

12     training; is that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Later, you say that you returned from Germany and joined the

15     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   What kind of training did you undergo there?

18        A.   Fitness, handling automatic rifles.  Then I was in charge of some

19     kind of mortar.  I mean, that's the only thing I know.  This lasted,

20     like, three months.  Or was it two months?  I really cannot remember.

21        Q.   Did you have any kind of targeting practice?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23        Q.   And in what unit were you?

24        A.   [No interpretation]

25        Q.   Do you remember?

Page 9117

 1        A.   It's called the 37th Muslim Unit.

 2        Q.   And where was it stationed?

 3        A.   In Travnik.

 4        Q.   How did you travel from Germany to Travnik?

 5        A.   Via Mostar.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber is a bit lost as far as the

 7     relevance of this last series of questions is concerned.  So either come

 8     to the point which shows the relevance or move on.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I actually finished this line of questions.  Thank

10     you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we still do not understand the relevance.

12             Mr. Mladic, you are supposed to remain seated.  Mr. Mladic,

13     remain seated.  You can consult with counsel.  Remain seated, please.

14                           [Defence counsel confer]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Remain seated, I said.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, will you take care that Mr. Mladic always

18     has his earphones in.  The standing up in court is something the Chamber

19     does not accept.  He can consult; short notice.  You know how it works.

20     But remain seated.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] You set out with a group towards Bihac.  Now

24     we're moving ahead in terms of time.

25             How many people were moving along?  How many people were trying

Page 9118

 1     to break through to Bihac?

 2        A.   Before -- well, I don't know.  I just said 300.  It was sort of a

 3     free estimate.  I don't know exactly how many of us there were.

 4        Q.   And where was it that you assembled before you started this

 5     breakthrough?

 6        A.   I think Bukvik Suma.  I think that's what it's called.

 7        Q.   Do you know where the forest of Kurevo is?

 8        A.   Somewhere near Carakovo, yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock.  I think it's

10     approximately time to take a break.

11             Again, if -- the follow-up questions, still, it's not clear what

12     the relevance of that is.  But please -- and if you want to ask these

13     questions, come to the point you want to make as quickly as possible so

14     that the Chamber also is able to understand what it is about.

15             Mr. Karagic, we'll take a break, and you'll first be escorted out

16     of the courtroom.  We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

17             THE WITNESS:  Hvala.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at five minutes past 12.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 11.46 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I can just briefly inform you that

Page 9119

 1     over the break, Mr. Stojanovic and Mr. Shin met.  They have agreed on a

 2     map.  We are in a process of creating that map, and as soon as it is

 3     available in e-court, we will tender it.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is appreciated.

 5             Mr. Lukic, could you give us any indication as to whether you

 6     think, in view of how the cross-examination develops, that we could

 7     conclude the evidence of this witness today so that we would know whether

 8     we should be here tomorrow morning at 9.30?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I'll do my best to finish him today so we don't have

10     to come tomorrow.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, yes.  We are here anyhow.  It's ... and we are

12     always willing to hear whatever evidence we are requested to hear.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Welcome back.  Mr. Lukic will now continue -- yes.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before we begin, while I was

17     sitting there, I just remembered what the lawyer asked me.  He was

18     talking about the tanks and the attack on Hambarine and the three hours

19     that it took for capture.  I could not possibly see any tank at the

20     moment when that was happening.  It was on the day before when the

21     check-point was attacked, so I have a kind of mix-up with this regard,

22     and I felt the need to notify you of that.

23             I was in the lower part of the village running towards the

24     check-point when they attacked Hambarine.  Therefore, I could not have

25     seen any tanks, and I don't know how I could have mentioned tanks at all,

Page 9120

 1     so I felt it -- it's my duty to tell you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

 3             Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 5        Q.   Can we continue?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   We talked about your group that was on the move, but just before

 8     we start with the capture, let's make a kind of introduction first.

 9             We said that there were armed people in the group.  Were those

10     armed men in uniform or were they in civilian clothes too?

11        A.   Before the capture, one of the men took off his uniform.  The

12     rest were in civilian clothes.

13        Q.   You were moving, and you could hear that somebody was issuing an

14     order, Halt, halt, don't run away; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes, it is.  And he was shooting at the same time.

16        Q.   And the group scattered; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes, it is.

18        Q.   And after that, you were taken prisoner.

19        A.   Well, not exactly immediately after that.  But perhaps one or two

20     hours later, we were captured.  And that is when I saw this man taking

21     off his uniform.  I even hadn't noticed any rifles before, although it is

22     in the statement that I read.

23        Q.   Well, can you remember today whether any of the men in the group

24     was armed?

25        A.   When we were captured?

Page 9121

 1        Q.   No, before you were captured.

 2        A.   Well, five minutes before we were taken prisoner, I saw four

 3     rifles.  And I saw this man taking off his uniform.  But not before that.

 4     I didn't see it.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  What kind of uniforms -- were the people who took you

 6     prisoner?

 7        A.   Olive-drab-green and the uniform of reserve police forces.  Kind

 8     of blue coats.  That was the civilian police.

 9        Q.   And when you were captured, where did they take you to?

10        A.   We were first searched.  We had to take everything out of our

11     pockets.  One of them fired into the air, maybe to intimidate us and keep

12     us calm.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last one he

14     said about someone being slaughtered.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The guard who was standing in front

16     of me opened fire, and I remember that somebody grabbed the barrel and

17     pointed it into the air.  But the one who did this knew these people.  I

18     think that they all knew each other.  Some of them even said, Fuck it,

19     it's a war.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   First, you were taken to Miska Glava?

22        A.   No.  We were first taken to a meadow where we were assembled.

23     And somebody threw a stone at us.  And then, in the meantime, a van

24     arrived, and it took us to Miska Glava in several batches.

25        Q.   How many people could be accommodated in the van?

Page 9122

 1        A.   I don't know.  We were packed, as many as possible.  It -- it was

 2     not according to the standard.

 3        Q.   Now you arrived at Miska Glava.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   At the Dom.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And what kind of uniforms did you see there?

 8        A.   Olive-drab-green.

 9        Q.   Did you see people in reserve police uniforms?

10        A.   Not that I know of.

11        Q.   Let me just refresh your memory by looking at the transcript

12     tendered by the Prosecution.

13             We need P998 in e-court, page 17 in the English.  We did not

14     operate with the B/C/S version at all because we were not aware of there

15     being one.

16             You were asked by the Prosecutor - for the record that's

17     page 5219 from the Stakic transcript:

18             [In English] "Were there people in uniforms?  Could you tell who

19     they were or what units they were from?"

20             And your answer was.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What line are you reading?

22             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry, 16 and further.

23        Q.   And your answer was:

24             "I think it was the Miska Glava Territorial Defence, and they

25     were wearing JNA uniforms.  I didn't see any other kind of uniforms in

Page 9123

 1     that place, although at the place where we were taken prisoner, there

 2     were also reserve police uniforms."

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] So at the place where you were detained, men

 5     were dressed in reserve police uniforms.

 6        A.   Yes, as far as I can remember.  What do you mean, military

 7     police?

 8        Q.   Reserve police officers.

 9        A.   Are you talking about the meadow where we were captured or --

10     what are you talking about?

11        Q.   I read it out to you where you said that, at that place where we

12     were incarcerated, there were men in reserve police uniforms.

13        A.   Well, it's -- it seems that we're talking about the Dom --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.  Mr. Lukic, it was translated to us your

15     question as incarcerated which seems to refer to a detention situation.

16             Could we clearly distinguish between --

17             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But also in such a way that witness is not

19     confused.  In this transcript the witness refers to reserve police

20     uniforms at the location where he was taken --

21             MR. LUKIC:  Prisoner.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- prisoner.  Yes.  And that is not where he was

23     incarcerated but where he was taken prisoner.  Incarceration follows once

24     you have been taken prisoner, taken to a place and then that may be a

25     different place and that may have been, for example, the Miska Glava --

Page 9124

 1     the Miska Glava Dom.

 2             So could we clearly distinguish between the two.

 3             Please proceed.  I leave it in your hands.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Karagic, do you remember now you were

 6     imprisoned in Miska Glava Dom.  Around the Dom, did you see that a

 7     delegation arrived in light brown uniforms?

 8        A.   It is possible.  Yes, there was a delegation.  Now whether they

 9     were dressed in uniforms, but it was that colour.

10        Q.   Light brown?

11        A.   Well, probably.  It's been 20 years.  But I think it's more like

12     coffee brown.

13        Q.   You also saw, but that was at the stadium later, Becir Stojan who

14     was dressed in black; is that correct?

15        A.   I think it was him.  Whether it was him --

16        Q.   Yes, but anyway you saw a man --

17        A.   Yes, I saw a man on the bus also dressed in black.  But that was

18     another person.  And this one with a beard resembles most Stojan Becir.

19     I happened to see his picture in the "Blic" or in another newspaper when

20     he was arrested, so I put two and two together, and he also had a cross

21     around his neck so it must have been him.

22        Q.   He had a beard?

23        A.   Yes, a well-trim beard.

24        Q.   From the Miska Glava Dom, where were you taken to?

25        A.   From the Dom?

Page 9125

 1        Q.   Yes.

 2        A.   We were taken to the stadium.

 3        Q.   In Ljubija?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speaker please pause between

 6     questions and answers.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I again ask you, Witness, to make a short

 8     pause between question and answer.  Yes.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  I have forgotten again

10     that this needs to be interpreted.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You're not the only one who forgets now and then.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] The stadium is situated between Gornja Ljubija

15     and Donja Ljubija; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And this is where you were lined up.  How did that happen?

18        A.   While we were passing through Ljubija, when I saw the army there,

19     a man in black uniform came in, and he asked about people with my last

20     name, and I remember my father telling me to keep quiet.  One of the guys

21     wanted to say, Now, what do you want?  And he started slapping him across

22     the face or kicking him.  And then at the very entrance to the stadium

23     when we reached it, we got off, running, and people were waiting for us.

24     There was a bus driver with a moustache and he was beating us.  So when I

25     arrived there, it seemed to me that there had been people there before we

Page 9126

 1     arrived.  There were many of us, so they made two lines along the wall

 2     the -- the length of the stadium.  But I don't know how many people there

 3     were exactly.

 4        Q.   Did they put -- put you in two lines or in four lines?

 5        A.   If I remember correctly, two lines.

 6        Q.   Can we briefly see one portion ...

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat the last part

 8     of the question.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you're invited to repeat the last part of

10     your question.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at document 1D182 [as

12     interpreted].  It's the witness's statement given the Prosecution on the

13     10th of November, 1998.

14             We need paragraph 5.  It's page 3 in both versions.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it's 1D812.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Lawyer.  Does my

18     statement say that I said four lines?

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Yes.

21        A.   I don't believe I ever said that, just like about the thing a

22     while ago.

23        Q.   In the middle of this paragraph, it says -- so what you think

24     that what you stated at the time that you were lined up in four lines

25     that is not correct?

Page 9127

 1        A.   I don't believe I ever said that.

 2        Q.   Very well.  And, now, in front of the stadium where you were

 3     lined up, what kind of uniforms did you observe there?

 4        A.   At the moment, all I can remember is this major in an olive-drab

 5     uniform.  Maybe with a white belt.  Maybe his uniform was with a pattern.

 6     I cannot confirm.  I don't know.  The one who was addressed as Vojvoda,

 7     who I think it was actually Stojan Becir, that he was in civilian

 8     clothes.  He was in black anyway, but whether it was civilian clothes or

 9     not, I don't know.  And whether it was Stojan Becir or not, all I can say

10     is I presume it was him.

11        Q.   All right.  Did you see a policeman there?

12        A.   Well, I believe the one with the white belt was supposed to be

13     some kind of military policeman; right?

14        Q.   All right.  A moment ago you mentioned something and I'd like to

15     go back to that now.

16             Actually, we'll go back in time.  When you were taken prisoner in

17     this forest was called it Kalajevo or Kurevo?

18        A.   Kalajevo.  You mean where we were taken prisoner?

19        Q.   Yes.

20        A.   I don't know.  Kalajevo, and then we were running, running, and

21     now where we were when we were taken prisoner, I don't know.

22        Q.   All right.  But just before that, I was just wondering whether it

23     was Kurevo?

24        A.   I don't know.  I don't know.  I mean, to this day I don't know

25     what belongs to Kurevo.  I know that they called this Kalajevo where we

Page 9128

 1     were taken this rest.  Now where we ran, I know that we crossed some road

 2     and whatever and I don't know how much time went by as we were running.

 3     I don't know.

 4        Q.   You also say that they found something on a man -- or rather, in

 5     this man's pocket, or did he throw this out of his pocket?

 6        A.   A little pistol.  He threw it out of his pocket as if it had been

 7     handmade and also a knife, and then they wanted to slit the throat of --

 8     well.  But anyway, he started running away and I've already said --

 9        Q.   All right.  You've already said that.  In one statement, you

10     mention a penknife and in another statement you mention a small pistol.

11     Today you're saying both.

12        A.   Who said anything different?

13        Q.   We're going to look at this briefly now.  1D --

14        A.   You know, you know, I mean, I never really said what the man had

15     in his pocket.  I said what was on the pile.  Now whether it belonged to

16     the same man, I don't know.  I know there was some pistol and this

17     penknife, knife, whatever you call it.  Well, it was small anyway.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not catch the last

19     sentence.

20             THE WITNESS:  He wanted to slit his throat.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  The interpreters did not catch the last

22     part.

23             You said, "I know there was some" --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, I'm so sorry.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  You said:

Page 9129

 1             "I know there was some pistol and this penknife, knife, whatever

 2     you call it ... it was small anyway."

 3             What did you then add after you said, "It was small anyway"?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, I said that I never claimed

 5     that it was in his pocket that it was found in his pocket.  It was in

 6     front of us.  Us as a group.  Not in somebody's pocket.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] In Miska Glava, where was it that you were

10     actually detained?

11        A.   Well, it was a sort of coffee bar.

12        Q.   Was it within this Dom?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   When you came to the Dom, did they write down your names?

15        A.   Yes.  Now was it immediately or -- no.  I think it was during the

16     night.

17        Q.   And did they give you water in Miska Glava?

18        A.   Yes.  I've already said that.  It's already stated there.  Well,

19     there was this old man, a nice old man -- well, he was good.  He was

20     nice.  He gave us water when we were there with him.  And afterwards, at

21     day break, the old man was no longer there.  Then it was bad, because we

22     had to sing in order to get water, whatever, and then when we'd go out,

23     we'd get beaten up, and if somebody went out to piss, take a piss - I'm

24     sorry for using this kind of word - also we were sort of afraid to go

25     out.  I went out to urinate.  They didn't mistreat me.  But they sure did

Page 9130

 1     mistreat some other people.

 2        Q.   Now, about this water, did anybody urinate into that water before

 3     it was given to you?

 4        A.   No.  No.  No -- well, maybe.  I don't know.  But we drank it.  I

 5     mean, even if somebody had urinated it, maybe we would have had it

 6     anyway.  We were so thirsty.  The temperature was unbearable in there.  I

 7     mean, I really don't know how come we didn't suffocate.

 8        Q.   In your statement of the 10th of November, 1995, in paragraph 5,

 9     1D812, you said we had to sing in order to get water but they had

10     urinated into the water that we drank.

11        A.   Well, that's what was written down.  They wrote that down.

12        Q.   But when you testified in the Stakic case, on page 5220, you said

13     that you did not see anyone urinating there.  You said that this was just

14     theoretical.  And even if someone had urinated into the water you were so

15     thirsty that you would have had it any way.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   So it's not true that someone urinated into that water?

18        A.   I cannot assert --

19        Q.   What, that somebody did or did not urinate into that water?

20        A.   I cannot say that that is correct.  I'm saying that even if

21     someone had done that, we would have had that water nevertheless because

22     we were so thirty.

23        Q.   But you did not see anyone doing that.

24        A.   Oh, no.  No way, I did not see anyone doing that.

25             Now that you've asked me this I have to say something.  During

Page 9131

 1     those three days we got some bread and these little chocolate balls

 2     that's the only thing that we had to eat, now that we're on the subject.

 3        Q.   In Miska Glava was somebody's name called out?  Was somebody

 4     taken out?  Was somebody killed?

 5        A.   Many names were called out.  Among them, my father.  I knew most

 6     of them, these men who were being taken out.  Most of them by sight.

 7        Q.   In your statement from the 10th of November, 1998, you do not

 8     mention that anybody's names were called out in Miska Glava?

 9        A.   No, that's not the way I had put it.  I'm surprised by all these

10     contradictions.  I know how many people were taken out and beaten up and

11     never returned.  I even know when two men went from this group to bury

12     someone.  Now who it was, I don't know.  But I mean, I'd just know about

13     this man whose lungs sort of went dead.  So there were dead people there

14     too, and they buried someone there by the Dom, since these men went to

15     bury someone.  But who it was, I don't know.  And I also do not know how

16     many such cases there were.

17        Q.   So when you arrived in the stadium in Ljubija, did you see some

18     people who had already arrived there before you or, rather, you spoke

19     about that a moment ago?

20        A.   Where?

21        Q.   Before the stadium in Ljubija.

22        A.   Well, yes, I had the impression that there were people there when

23     we arrived.  When you see lots of people, the stadium is so long, yes.

24     And over there, in Miska Glava, there were already less, so people were

25     taken in this group; apart from those who had been killed individually.

Page 9132

 1        Q.   These men who were standing around you, did they bring someone to

 2     point out who it was from your group that had weapons?

 3        A.   Could you please repeat the question.

 4        Q.   You were in Ljubija?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   You were lined up in front of the stadium?

 7        A.   By the wall.

 8        Q.   Yes.  Now these people with weapons --

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Serbs?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Did they bring some other people to show which people from

13     amongst you had been armed?

14        A.   Well, they pointed out this young man and then this young man

15     pointed at someone else, and that's how it was.

16             No, no, no.  No.  Who was with him somewhere.  Not who was armed

17     from amongst us.  Now where, was it Kurevo, I don't know.  No.  Oh,

18     sorry, Lawyer.  Can I just go and you know?

19        Q.   We'll take a break.

20        A.   Well, just five minutes.  My bladder is weak.

21        Q.   Just a moment, please.  We have to ask the Trial Chamber.

22             Your Honours, may we take a break now?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break.  The witness can leave the

24     courtroom first and then ...

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 9133

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  As matters stand now, Mr. Traldi, how much time you

 2     think you'll need for re-examination, if any at all?

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Thus far, very little, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if we would resume at 1.00, do you think

 5     that ... again, it's [Overlapping speakers]

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Depending on the witness.  If he has to make a

 7     brief --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, it's not only depending on the witness,

 9     as you are aware of.  Focussed questioning.

10             We resume at 1.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

14             Meanwhile, the Chamber has decided about P1001 and P1002 and has

15     decided that it is appropriate to admit them at this stage of the

16     proceedings.

17             Therefore, P1001 and P1002 are now in evidence.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Any specific reason why we have to wait -- no, no.

20     Okay.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 9134

 1        Q.   Can we proceed?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   In the Stakic transcript, on page P233, lines 20 and 21, we need

 4     page 30 in e-court of this transcript.

 5             You said that you did not know whether a Croat or Muslim had been

 6     brought in, one who had been caught in the forest, and he was supposed to

 7     point out the persons who were with him in the forest.  And then he

 8     pointed out two persons, Ismet Avdic and Ferid Kadiric or Kadic?

 9        A.   No, Ferid Kadic.

10        Q.   You said Ferid Kadiric or Kadic.

11        A.   No way.  I did not say that.  It can be Ermin Kadic but not

12     Fikret or Ferid.

13        Q.   Ismet Avdic, Ferid Kadiric.  Now we can find this down here in

14     lines 19 through 25.  That's what was recorded in this transcript.

15     You're saying today -- actually, do you know who Ferid Kadiric or Kadic

16     is?

17        A.   Kadiric I should know if we're talking about the first person who

18     was killed in the stadium.  If that's the person we're talking about.  I

19     should know him, there are two Ferid Kadirics.

20        Q.   All right.

21        A.   One went into the same class as I did.

22        Q.   Who pointed at weapons?

23        A.   He didn't point at anything.  And this other one, I don't know.

24     This other Ferid was already by the fence if that's Ferid.

25        Q.   What about Ismet Avdic?

Page 9135

 1        A.   Ismet Avdic, yes.

 2        Q.   1D807.  Could that be displayed please.  That's the statement

 3     that you gave on the 11th of November 1992.

 4        A.   In Zagreb.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Kindly mention the names

 6     of people slowly.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Everyone is invited to give names of persons slowly.

10     It's a request on the interpreters.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I think I would -- no, we are.  Now it's better.  I

13     think my voice was -- I tried to activate my microphone but there was

14     wrong.  Interpreters have asked everyone to slowly mention names of

15     persons.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18        Q.   In your statement here, the one from Zagreb, around the middle of

19     the page in B/C/S, and on top of the page in the English version, it

20     starts from the second line.  You say that he brought Avdic, Ismet;

21     Kadiric, Ferid; and another person to show the persons who had weapons.

22     They indicated 25 persons?

23        A.   I could not have stated that.  I could not have stated that in

24     such form, especially not Ferid Kadiric.  I couldn't have mentioned him

25     there.

Page 9136

 1        Q.   Did you have an impression that the official in Zagreb who was

 2     taking your statement know -- knew the persons that you were talking

 3     about?

 4        A.   No.  But I know that they came to the refugee centre to look for

 5     me, but I didn't dare stay there any longer.  Because of the conflict

 6     between the Muslims and Croats, I didn't want to take a chance of being

 7     surrendered to the other side.  That's why I wanted to go to Germany as

 8     soon as possible.

 9        Q.   Would you --

10        A.   Well, he treated me well.  Let's be clear on that.  But I'm not

11     sure that I could have put it in that form.

12        Q.   He could not have written down the name of Ferid Kadiric because

13     he didn't know him, unless it wasn't you who mentioned that.  Would you

14     agree with me?

15        A.   I don't understand your question.

16        Q.   The official who took the statement, you say that he didn't know

17     the people you were talking about.

18        A.   I suppose he wasn't able to know them.

19        Q.   That's why I said, unless you mentioned the name of

20     Ferid Kadiric, he wouldn't have noted it down.

21        A.   I don't know why I mentioned it.  And if I did, that was many

22     years ago.  It may have been the case.

23        Q.   Just a moment, please.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Once again, short pause between question and answer

25     and between answer and question.

Page 9137

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             We now need 1D808 in e-court, please.  This is, again, a

 4     statement given in Zagreb two months later on the 11th of January, 1993.

 5             We need, B/C/S, page 3, and English, page 4.  In the B/C/S, it's

 6     very at the bottom of the page, and in the English, the very top of the

 7     page.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, let go back to this.

 9     How it was possible for me to say how many people?  I was dead frightened

10     and I couldn't have been counting people --

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Let us just proceed.  I'm sorry.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please instruct Mr. Mladic to refrain from

14     loud laughter during the testimony of the witness.  It will have

15     consequences, as he is aware of and we will not wait for very long.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18        Q.   Here, you say:

19             "Three traitors attended the questioning."

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just tell us where are you reading, Mr. Lukic,

21     please.  You said top.  Three traitors.  What line?

22             MR. LUKIC:  The very top.  The first line.  Actually, it starts

23     from the second line.  Ismet Avdic and further on.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, the statement that says "three translators."

25             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, if I might assist.  I think in the

Page 9138

 1     English the word that appears is informers and it's on the third line.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, please, if you allow me.

 3     Allow me, please.

 4             I see a couple of things here already.  Without his reasoning,

 5     that -- I don't know.  Really, I would discard this.  I don't know.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was mention of hats and

 8     things of that nature.  I don't recall that at all.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, wait -- wait quietly.  The only thing we

10     did is the Judges wanted to find the place from where Mr. Lukic was

11     reading.  Wait until Mr. Lukic has read what he intends to read, and then

12     he'll put some questions to you, and then you will have an opportunity to

13     say whether you agree or disagree or at least to answer those questions.

14             So just remain quietly, wait for the questions to come, and let

15     Mr. Lukic read first.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   So did you mention Ismet Avdic, Ferid Kadiric and another man

18     from Carakovo as traitors who betrayed the people who had arms, they were

19     wealthy people and member of the SDA?

20        A.   In that respect it is possible.  But again you are mentioning

21     Ferid Kadiric and again you are leading me to say that they were

22     traitors.  I cannot say that any of them was a traitor.

23        Q.   I'm reading what's been noted down.

24        A.   I had opportunity to read even worse things.  Therefore I could

25     kindly ask the Judge not to have this read because I never said them.

Page 9139

 1        Q.   Could we now have 1D809.

 2        A.   Either I don't remember or I really don't understand.

 3        Q.   This is your statement given on the 2nd of May, 1995.  B/C/S

 4     version, page 3, very top of the page; and English page 4, fourth line

 5     from the top.

 6             And the sentence begins with the word, "They then ...":

 7             "They then singled out three Bosniaks:  Avdic, who used to work

 8     in a cafe, Ferid Kadiric, and a man from Carakovo, and they were ordered

 9     to say who participated in an attempt to free Prijedor and those were

10     members of the Territorial Defence.  Do you remember saying that?

11        A.   No, I don't, if you are asking me about the weapons and whether

12     he was with someone.  But as for everything else I discard that

13     completely.

14        Q.   According to you, who recorded erroneously what you said on four

15     occasions?

16        A.   Which statement are you talking about?  Is it the Zagreb

17     statement?

18        Q.   The statement of the 2nd of May, 1995.  Official is Zijad Ibric.

19        A.   Judge, I can tell you immediately with regard to this statement

20     and knowing what happened to me later I already was sure that there were

21     some games being played because I signed a lot of things on blank pieces

22     of paper on the assumption that something would be added later.  So

23     please bear that in mind when we are discussing these things.

24        Q.   Very well.  Just briefly, it says here that the witness --

25     statement was given to SJB Prijedor, MUP of Banja Luka.  However, it was

Page 9140

 1     given in Travnik?

 2        A.   Yes.  The Travnik CSB.

 3        Q.   Very well.  Now something about how you managed to flee from the

 4     bus.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   How many of you were in the group that remained behind before you

 7     jumped out of the bus?

 8        A.   How many of us remained?  Where?  On the bus?

 9        Q.   Yes.

10        A.   As far as I reckon, not more than five.  Do you want me to

11     describe the event?

12        Q.   It's not necessary.  We have it in your statement.

13        A.   Very well.

14        Q.   So were there five of you?  You said that was not more than five.

15     Was it three?  How many?

16        A.   I don't know what you are trying to get with this, but I'm going

17     to describe the event again, and that's how we will come up with the

18     number.

19             So, when they said the next three, I got up.  Somebody -- but

20     what happened during those few seconds, I don't know.  I couldn't see

21     everything.  All I know is that the one who was taking people out, the

22     driver, was lying on the floor.  That Nino from Biscani was lying on to

23     of him holding his rifle.  At the same time a window on the left-hand

24     side was broken, and according to some stories later, the one who jumped

25     throughout the window was kill immediately.

Page 9141

 1             This is when I turned away to look at the man who was lying on

 2     top of the other, and then I see somebody else.  A Serb soldier who is

 3     pulling the one on top by the legs.  At that moment, I went to the window

 4     and the one, the guard who was standing there, didn't have any bullets.

 5     He was changing his clip.  When I jumped out, I went on running.  I fell

 6     into a hole.  I saw three men running past.  I didn't know who they were.

 7     Only later did I find out who that was.

 8             Now, you are asking me to say three, five.  One was already

 9     killed.  Which have two there.  We have another one lying on top of the

10     driver.  So that's five all together.

11        Q.   What is the time of the day when you jumped out of the bus?

12        A.   It was moonlight.  It was night.

13        Q.   And you spent the night where?

14        A.   Perhaps 150 metres from the place where the shooting took place.

15        Q.   How many -- how -- how long did you stay there?

16        A.   I got up before the break of dawn, and I started walking

17     cautiously.  I passed by some tires, I was terribly frightened and I

18     thought that I was too visible because I heard some noise from the

19     forest, so I took off my shoes but my feet were too white so I covered

20     them.  And, that I came out and said, shoot me.  And that is the moment

21     when I came across the two Croats who told me that everybody from their

22     village had been killed two days before that and that they were looking

23     for women and children.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber needs a break of more likely

25     no more than two or three minutes.

Page 9142

 1             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom to start with.

 2             We will resume, and it will be a very short break.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Everybody is expected to remain stand-by.  And ...

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Most likely we're back in two or three minutes.

 8                            --- Break taken at 1.26 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 1.30 p.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

11             The urgent matter the Chamber unfortunately had to deal with

12     is -- has been dealt with by now.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Mr. Karagic, the place where you were hiding, did you fall

17     asleep, did you lost consciousness?

18        A.   Everything could have happened.  I remember that I woke up in the

19     morning, and I was cold.

20        Q.   So you left there towards Rakovcani?

21        A.   I said that I saw these two Croats, and they told me to go

22     towards Carakovo because I was not familiar with that ground because I

23     had never been in the forest earlier so I didn't know.  And I went in the

24     direction of Carakovo.  But before that, many things happened.

25        Q.   Who did you meet on the way?  A man who was attending cattle; is

Page 9143

 1     that correct?

 2        A.   It is possible.  It was an elderly man.  He gave me something to

 3     eat.  Oh, wait.  Are you talking about when I was arrested?

 4        Q.   Yes.

 5        A.   Oh.  There was an old man -- do I have to say his name?

 6        Q.   We have it in the statement.

 7        A.   Yes.  Is it Avdic?

 8        Q.   Avdo Dzambastagic.  Because you mentioned two Avdos, Avdo and

 9     Avdo Dzambastagic.  Avdo Avdic and Avdo Dzambastagic.

10        A.   That was Avdo Dzambastagic.  Somebody wrote it wrongly.  He was

11     sitting there and tending cows.

12        Q.   And then a uniformed person with a beard came and arrested you?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And then another man in the reserve police uniform came.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And they arrested you there.  So what happened next?

17        A.   They took me, I think I was put in a car.  They were speaking

18     about fuel while they were outside, and I thought that that could give me

19     a chance to escape.  They took me out of the car and put me on a tractor.

20        Q.   How much fuel did you tell them you had?

21        A.   I don't know that I said how much fuel I had.  I only said I have

22     fuel at that moment.  Or at least I think so.

23             Well, and, Lawyer, yes, I did have fuel.  But I sincerely wanted

24     to bring them to the fuel but my real intention was to escape.  So when

25     they took me to my house, we were building a large storage for fruit and

Page 9144

 1     vegetables, and some of it is still preserved below the ground and what

 2     is above the ground is derelict.  And I think that there were blocks

 3     prepared for further building, and fuel was inside.  And that occurred to

 4     me when I told them I had fuel.  However, when -- we came there, somebody

 5     had already found the fuel.  I don't know how, but it was gone.  So I

 6     took them behind the stable because I had another hiding place, and I

 7     found a barrel with 20 litres of fuel.  I wanted to flee then, but this

 8     man was guarding me at gun point.

 9        Q.   Did you ever talk to these people about the quantities of oil

10     that you could give them?

11        A.   Uh-huh, later.  I don't know whether it was exactly those people.

12     I know that when I was burying the dead in Rizvanovici, that -- now how

13     did that happen?

14             I think that I thought that I could buy my own life back by

15     giving fuel.  I know when this guy hit me, well, first with some piece of

16     wood.  I mean, somebody had found -- I don't know how to say this.  It

17     was a big piece of wood, and he hit me with that, and I said, How much is

18     my life worth?  And he said, 5.000 litres of fuel.  And I said, Well, I

19     have 200.  I just happened to remember that my uncle had some buried

20     somewhere.  I have no idea.  But this just sort of happened to go through

21     my head, and, yeah.  Well, possibly.  Possibly.  When -- when -- when he

22     already had that stake that he wanted to impale me on and he said, Fuck

23     you.  Why didn't you tell me immediately?  And he wanted to hit me and I

24     caught this in the air.  I don't know.  I don't know.  Whether he got me

25     or I got him, out of fear, I mean, I would never let go.  Never let go.

Page 9145

 1     I was hoping that the commander would help.  So I called the commander.

 2     I said, Commander, commander, so that he would help me --

 3        Q.   So did he help you?  Did anyone help?

 4        A.   I think so, yes --

 5        Q.   Was somebody lying there on you, pretending to beat you but was

 6     actually protecting you?

 7        A.   Yes.  And later on, I think that he let me -- well, I don't know.

 8     I'm not glad to be saying this, because of this man.  In fact he saved me

 9     from that soldier who wanted to impale me on that stake.  But now did he

10     have the intention of helping me?  He did do it though.  He was playing

11     with this knife walking up to me, and he sort of fell.  And that moment I

12     was fleeing and he had nothing to trip over.  I mean, it was just a

13     clearing, a meadow.  I think that he fell on purpose, to give me the

14     chance to run away.  Well, that would be it.  I know that I was supposed

15     to bury six others before I ran away.  Well ...

16        Q.   On that occasion, did someone fire at you?

17        A.   As I ran to the brook, I just heard something fly by me, and I

18     saw later on that it was a grenade that exploded.  I thought that it had

19     blown away my ear and I was holding onto my ear and I was also wounded by

20     it, here.

21             Now I don't know whether there's any shrapnel left anywhere.  I

22     don't know.

23        Q.   You're showing your hand.  The wound -- your hand or head?

24        A.   Here, here.  I thought that it had fallen off but it was just

25     grazed, here.  But it was sort of -- they weren't shooting then.  I

Page 9146

 1     think.  I think.  They just fired and then later on I'd find out -- I

 2     mean, I didn't have experience with this military stuff.  I mean, you

 3     know the thing that they call drunken Ustashas, you know.  It's like a

 4     rifle grenade, sort of something that's round and then you put a grenade

 5     there and then, well, it was with that that they fired this grenade.  I

 6     saw that soldier, but I didn't know what this was used for.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1D812.  Could we briefly take a look

 8     at that now, please.  We need page 5.

 9        Q.   This is your statement of the 10th of November, 1998.

10             We need paragraph 15.  Page 5, both versions.

11             This is what you say here in the English version.  It is the

12     sixth line from the top.

13        A.   I've read that before you did.  So this text is correct.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Wait for the question to be put.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  I'm sorry.  But I've

16     read the entire paragraph so I know what's written there so I wanted to

17     tell him straight away that that's the way it was --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Just wait for the question.  That is what we expect

19     you to do.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   This is what is written here:

22             "A Serb fired at me and I thought I was dead but he only hit my

23     shirt, not me."

24        A.   Correct as I was burying those two, he was playing with me,

25     shooting at me before he went to get the stake sharpened for impaling me.

Page 9147

 1        Q.   It wasn't before the escape.

 2        A.   No, no, it was before we started wrestling.  Is that the word you

 3     use, wrestling?  At any rate, we were both holding that and... yes.

 4        Q.   And when were you asked whether you were hungry and did they

 5     offer you any food?

 6        A.   They did.

 7        Q.   Where did they take you?

 8        A.   To the Bosna cafe.

 9        Q.   And they gave you something to eat there?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   I don't understand in terms of time when this happened.  I mean,

12     in relation to this preparing the stake and holding onto it.

13        A.   Perhaps an hour or two later.

14        Q.   After you were holding the stake and wrestling?

15        A.   No.  First, I mean, remember that paragraph?  That's where it's

16     written.  All of it.  Before that, they took me to the cafe.  I mean,

17     first, the thing with the belt.  And then I ended up at the cafe.  And

18     then in the cafe I was questioned by this commander.  And I had to -- I

19     address him as the commander of Serbian Biscani, Rakovcani, and as I

20     spoke to him, he put a pile of IDs in front of me.  I really didn't know

21     any of these people.  I just recognised the waiter.  Out of all of these

22     IDs that were there.  And they all come from my village.  But there you

23     go.  I didn't know them.

24        Q.   All right.

25        A.   And then this man was sort of poking at me with his knife.  They

Page 9148

 1     offered me a cigarette.  However, since this guy was sort of poking me

 2     with that knife, I sort of said I couldn't.  Whereas this guy said, Fuck

 3     you, eat.  And then well, that would be it.  And then I said -- now what

 4     was this that I said?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Wait for --

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   I do apologise.  We really have to move on because our time is

 8     limited.  We're trying to finish today so that you don't have to come

 9     back tomorrow.  So I will just have a few more questions.

10             After that this one is pretending to beat you, and then you are

11     haggling over the stake, and now where -- where did you arrive after

12     that, when you were fleeing from these people?

13        A.   I know that I first ran into a thicket and then I lay there, and

14     then they ran by me, ran by me.  Then they went further on to look for

15     me, and I went in the opposite direction.  In fact, I was going through

16     the open -- I mean, there were these raspberries that were planted in

17     rows and then there was some kind of path that was open, and I saw this

18     path and I managed to squeeze through.  It was short of like a path.  You

19     know how thicket is when you are moving through raspberries.  At any

20     rate, I managed to escape, they were looking for me in the forest, and I

21     was running in the opposite direction.

22             Now where did I arrive?  I arrived in Rika.  That's what we call

23     it.  There was this little house.  And I walked into that house and I

24     kept holding my ear, right?  And then I entered that house, and -- and,

25     sorry.  Sorry.  Sorry.  Since they called me Green Beret, I found a

Page 9149

 1     green -- a -- a green sheet and I thought, Oh, fuck, they're going to

 2     kill me now.  And I found this knife.  And then I took it with me.  And

 3     then the third time when they noticed me I wanted to kill myself with

 4     that very same knife.  At any rate I did not want to be caught alive.

 5        Q.   That time, when you hid, did you ever pass out as you were

 6     running?  Did you ever hit your head?

 7        A.   Well, yes, there.  But not here.

 8        Q.   Kipe is when you jumped out of the bus?

 9        A.   Well, when I ran, that's where I passed out, if I did pass out.

10     I just know that I woke up in the morning.

11             Well, look, for a few days we hadn't slept.  Now we were there

12     for how many days and we did not really sleep when they were taken

13     prisoner.  I don't think that anybody felt like sleeping.

14        Q.   Were you ever hiding in a tree?

15        A.   A tree?  I don't think so.

16        Q.   You don't remember that?

17        A.   I don't remember that.  I know I was underneath a tree.  I had

18     this hole dug there, and I know that I hid there for quite a few days.

19        Q.   All right.  Let us briefly take a look at transcript ...

20     actually, the Stakic transcript.  We need page 65.  In e-court.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  P998.

22             MR. LUKIC:  And I need a page number.  Thanks.

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   This is what you say here.  Yes.  5268; that's the page number

Page 9150

 1     from the Stakic transcript.  I'm going to read it out in English so that

 2     you get the right interpretation.  From line 16 onwards:

 3             [In English] "There was slope there, and I took out the cord off

 4     my shorts, which I then tied to a tree there.  And I tied myself to the

 5     tree so that they wouldn't see me.  I was hanging upside down, actually,

 6     and they were not very far from me."

 7        A.   It is correct.  It is correct.  I've already told you that.  I

 8     wanted to kill myself then.  I was holding the knife -- the knife and I

 9     took the cord out of those Hawaii short, whatever you call them, and then

10     tied it to the fence.  How could I tie it to the tree?  And then on one

11     side there were cows and on the other side were leaves.  And they passed

12     by me and they went to look for me further.  Now where this thing,

13     hanging upside down came from, I really have no idea.  And then I was

14     holding this knife --

15        Q.   [Interpretation] So you did not say that you were hanging upside

16     down with your head down?

17        A.   No.  How could I do that?  I don't know how come that's there.

18        Q.   Again, you joined this group of people who were supposed to go to

19     Travnik; is that right?  And that's were you found your brother; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Some of these people were armed as well, when you found them;

22     right?

23        A.   Yes.  Two of them.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness kindly repeat his last

25     answer, please.  Thank you.

Page 9151

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your last answer.

 2             You were asked:

 3             "Some of these people were armed as well, when you found them;

 4     right?"

 5             And then the answer which is recorded was:

 6             "Yes.  Two of them."

 7             Did you say anything further or was that your answer?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's all.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11        Q.   Now let us briefly go back to what you said.  You said that you

12     signed these empty sheets of paper?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Where was it that you signed these empty sheets of paper, in

15     Zagreb?

16        A.   The CSB Banja Luka.

17        Q.   That was in Travnik?

18        A.   Zagreb, I don't remember what happened there.  I don't remember.

19     But I know that I gave a statement and -- I don't know.  I don't think

20     that such -- I don't know.  I don't think I said such things.

21        Q.   Very briefly.  You were in Germany.  And you came from Germany

22     via Mostar, as you said, to Travnik?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Did you come with a group of fighters?

25        A.   No.

Page 9152

 1        Q.   And in Germany, did you undergo any kind of military training?

 2        A.   No.  With the approval of the German authorities, I left.  I

 3     asked them to let me go.  I couldn't take it anymore.  I often had dreams

 4     of what had happened to me.  And then, also due to certain emotional

 5     matters -- I mean, I met this girl --

 6        Q.   All right.  We understand that.  Can you just tell us how many

 7     blank papers were given to you in Travnik?

 8        A.   I don't know.  Several of them.

 9        Q.   During all these years --

10        A.   Excuse me, there is a video recording as well, so maybe on the

11     basis of this video recording can show what I said exactly.  There was a

12     camera on while I was giving my statement --

13        Q.   In Travnik?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Over the years --

16             MR. LUKIC:  We will have to go to private session for a couple of

17     minutes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9153

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

15             Mr. Lukic, this concluded your cross-examination.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Sir, thank you for answering my questions.  This is all I wanted

20     to ask you.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, any need to re-examine the witness?

22             MR. TRALDI:  It will be about five minutes, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then please proceed.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you.

25                           Re-examination by Mr. Traldi:

Page 9154

 1        Q.   Sir, at temporary transcript, page 56, Mr. Lukic asked you

 2     whether you were lined up Ljubija stadium in two lines or four lines.

 3     And could we have 1D00812, page 3, paragraph 5, the statement that

 4     Mr. Lukic showed you.

 5             And once that comes up - again 1D00812, page 3 - I would just ask

 6     you to take a moment, review that paragraph that he showed you, and tell

 7     the Judges whether you were discussing the Ljubija stadium at that point

 8     or you were discussing the time that you were captured.

 9        A.   Excuse me, which paragraph?

10        Q.   Sorry, sir.  Paragraph 5.

11        A.   Okay.  I'm sorry, I touched it with my finger unintentionally.

12        Q.   Perhaps it would help if I pointed you --

13        A.   So what's unclear about it?  Everything stands as it is.

14        Q.   I'm asking you a very simp question.  Mr. Lukic suggested to you

15     that at this point you were talking about the lines at the stadium and

16     I'm asking you were you in fact in this paragraph talking about being put

17     into the four lines when you were captured in the forest.

18        A.   Correct, correct.  That is where the four lines were.  Good of

19     you to remember that.

20        Q.   And it was the stadium where you were put into two lines, wasn't

21     it?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   Now, at different times during cross-examination, Mr. Lukic asked

24     you about armed resistance at Hambarine and suggested some of the victims

25     at the Ljubija stadium were in the Territorial Defence.  I have only two

Page 9155

 1     focussed questions for you in this respect.

 2             First, beginning when your group was taken to Miska Glava Dom --

 3        A.   Excuse me, can you please repeat what you just said?

 4        Q.   Sure.

 5        A.   I didn't understand.

 6        Q.   At some points during cross-examination, Mr. Lukic asked you

 7     about fighting in Hambarine; do you remember that?

 8        A.   Yes.  But he mentioned the wrong day when he was speaking about

 9     it.  I could only have spoken about this initial attack on the

10     check-point, but not on the attack the following day.  I could only have

11     spoken about the shells hitting the houses because I was able to see that

12     from the town.  I was running to the Rizvanovici check-point, and I was

13     able to see from there where the shells were landing.

14             As for the other thing, I'm not sure.

15        Q.   And, sir, I only have two very focussed questions.

16             From -- beginning when your group was taken to Miska Glava Dom

17     and ending at the time that you escaped from the bus, did you see anyone

18     in your group holding a weapon?

19        A.   I didn't understand you at all.  I am confused.  Can you please

20     repeat?

21        Q.   Sure, and I'll take it very slowly.  Your group was captured in

22     the forest and then taken to Miska Glava Dom; do you recall that?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   So from that point when you got to the Dom, through when you were

25     taken to the stadium and on the bus to Kipe, in that entire time, did you

Page 9156

 1     see anyone in your group holding a weapon?

 2        A.   No, no.  Nobody.  They didn't even have ID cards or money.

 3     Everything had been seized from them.

 4        Q.   And, Your Honours, that completes my examination.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

 6             The Bench has no further questions for you.

 7             Mr. Lukic, I see that the re-examination has not triggered any

 8     need for any further questions.

 9             Mr. Karagic, this concludes your testimony in this Court.  We'd

10     like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having

11     answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the

12     Bench, and we wish you a safe return home again.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm sorry for all these

14     things that I don't understand.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

16                           [The witness withdrew]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  In -- is there any matter remaining?  I don't think

18     so.  There's the chart.  Is still --

19             Mr. Lukic, are you already in a position, or would you rather

20     take your time before you express the final opinion about the chart?

21             MR. LUKIC:  I would rather take my time.  So if I analyse it

22     properly, maybe I can change my mind.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you give us a time estimate on how much

24     time it would take you to analyse it properly?  Is that a matter of --

25             MR. LUKIC:  During the weekend.

Page 9157

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  During the weekend.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, that's even more than I expected.  So we'll hear

 4     from you early next week.  Let's say not later than by Tuesday.  Is that

 5     okay?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll deal with that.

 8             I have a few matters which I would like to raise in the few

 9     remaining minutes.

10             First, in an e-mail of the 20th of February, the Chamber was

11     informed of an agreement between the parties to replace Exhibit D124,

12     under seal, with a redacted version of the same document and that was due

13     to restrictions on this document pursuant to Rule 70.

14             MR. GROOME:  That is correct, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I just wondered whether I had ...

16             MR. GROOME:  The exhibit number is correct and the reason is

17     correct as well, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             Then the next matter I'd like to deal with is MFI D1 ...

20             Yes, Madam Registrar, you are hereby instructed to replace the

21     unredacted version of D124 by the redacted version.

22             The next item deals with D198, MFI'd.  Defence Exhibit 198 was

23     MFI'd on the 8th of February during the testimony of Anthony Banbury due

24     to a missing translation.  In e-mail of the 20th of February, 2013, the

25     Defence notified the Chamber that it had uploaded a translation into

Page 9158

 1     e-court under doc ID 1D02-3163.

 2             Madam Registrar, you are hereby instructed to attach the

 3     translation to MFI D198, and the Chamber admits into evidence D198 under

 4     seal.

 5             Next item concerns Defence Exhibit 170, marked for

 6     identification, with Witness RM009.  D170 was MFI'd during the testimony

 7     of Witness RM009 on the 4th of February of this year due to the lack of

 8     an English translation.  This is to be found at transcript page 8033.

 9             In an e-mail of the 20th of February, the Defence notified the

10     Chamber that it had uploaded an English translation in e-court under doc

11     ID 1D02-3164.

12             Madam Registrar, the Chamber hereby instructs you to attach the

13     translation to D170, and the Chamber admits D170 into evidence, under

14     seal.  Any other matters?

15             MR. GROOME:  Not from the Prosecution, Your Honour.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Defence has nothing today, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             Then let me ...

19             Then we will adjourn, and I lost my little note, but it will be

20     until Monday.

21             We adjourn until Monday, the 25th of February, at 9.30 in the

22     morning, in this same courtroom, I.

23                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.11 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day of

25                           February, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.