1 Friday, 1 March 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, this is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 No preliminaries were announced. Therefore, is the Prosecution
12 ready to call its next witness?
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom. I
15 do understand that it's Ms. Gallagher.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And I also understand that there is an agreement
18 between the parties that we'll hear her evidence in chief only today.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's correct.
20 And good morning as well, Mr. President, Your Honours, everyone.
21 We have some rather old maps, so this will be an old-school style
22 presentation. We do have map books that will help you, as well as I hope
23 they will be up on the screen. The big maps that you'll see don't really
24 work well in e-court because they are so big, so we'll try to use the
25 smaller maps, though -- and I also noted that we don't expect you to be
1 able to read the map from where you are, it's a bit far, but you'll get
2 the feel of the positions and see some of the -- the translated version
3 on the map book. So ...
4 And while the material is designed to be self-explanatory, I
5 think it'll -- should be helpful to go over some things, but we, of
6 course, encourage questions.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Ms. Gallagher. Before you give -- and
9 first of all, could you please put in your earphones.
10 Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a
11 solemn declaration. May I invite you to do so.
12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
13 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: ERIN GALLAGHER
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Ms. Gallagher.
16 Ms. Gallagher, today we'll only hear your evidence in chief.
17 You'll not be cross-examined yet today. You'll first be examined by
18 Mr. McCloskey. Mr. McCloskey, as you may be aware of, is counsel for the
20 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
22 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:
23 Q. Can you state your name, please.
24 A. Erin Gallagher.
25 Q. And what is your position?
1 A. I'm an investigator with the OTP.
2 Q. And on what team?
3 A. With the -- over the years it's been with the Srebrenica team.
4 I'm on the Mladic case now.
5 Q. How many years?
6 A. Seven years.
7 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I'm told there is no B/C/S translation.
8 JUDGE ORIE: There is no B/C/S translation. Could we check that
9 the audio is the right channel, right volume.
10 You can hear the interpreters, Mr. Mladic? It's okay. Please
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. So, Ms. Gallagher, you've been an investigator for the Srebrenica
14 team for seven years now. Can you tell us briefly about your educational
15 background and your professional background before coming here seven
16 years ago.
17 A. I -- I -- the last 20 years of my life I was living in
18 San Francisco, California. I went to the university at the University of
19 Wisconsin in Madison, and went to graduate school at San Francisco State
20 in San Francisco. After graduate school I --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you to slow down for the interpreters.
22 We were -- you went to the -- perhaps you start all over because it went
23 in such a speed that ...
24 So you started you were living in San Francisco, you went to
25 university at?
1 THE WITNESS: University of Wisconsin in Madison. Then I
2 attended graduate school at San Francisco State University. And after
3 graduate school I joined the San Francisco Police Department and was a
4 police officer for two and a half years before I joined the San Francisco
5 District Attorney's Office as an investigator, and I worked there for
6 eight years. And that brought me to 2006, where I joined the ICTY.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. And now can you briefly describe your work as an investigator
10 A. I -- when I joined, I joined the Srebrenica team, so that has
11 been my focus for most of these years. It's been an array of different
12 duties and responsibilities, everything from investigating aspects of the
13 case, components of the case, to conducting and leading missions to
14 Bosnia and Serbia, investigative missions, interviewing, archival
15 missions, as well as managing some of the forensic projects and analysis
16 here for the OTP. And when in trial, also assisting with preparation of
17 witnesses and exhibits.
18 Q. And in these years, can you give us a rough estimate on how many
19 times you visited the Eastern Bosnia area of Srebrenica municipality,
20 Zvornik municipality, Vlasenica, Eastern Bosnia?
21 A. I would say it's between probably over 30, 30 missions.
22 Q. And have you become familiar with the distances between the
23 various towns and villages by road?
24 A. Certainly. Some areas more so than others, but yes.
25 Q. Okay. Now for your testimony today, have you been involved in
1 the preparation of what we call the Srebrenica court binder known as the
2 map book with the trial team?
3 A. Yes, I've assisted putting it together.
4 Q. All right. And is this a collection of both map illustrations
5 and graphics made by the trial team and actual copies of original maps?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. All right.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: And the map book, Your Honours, that you have in
9 front of you is 65 ter 28747. And if we can get that up on e-court.
10 Q. And in developing some of the map graphics and information that
11 was placed on the graphics in the book, did you, actually, and the team
12 actually use information on the original maps?
13 A. That's correct. A number of the computer-generated maps do come
14 from the base information from the original VRS maps.
15 Q. All right.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I'd like to go to one of those maps. We have
17 three today. And the first one is 65 ter 19563. It should be on page 25
18 in e-court and on page C20 in the map book.
19 Q. And have we -- have you brought the actual original map that the
20 OTP has in court today?
21 A. That's correct.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we get some help in just turning over that
24 And be very careful, that tripod has been in use for too long and
25 it's very fragile. If you could just turn that over. And -- yes, thank
1 you. In e-court we can -- we now have that correct.
2 Q. And I don't want to go over all this information, but I just want
3 to -- we can see that this map is entitled: "Decision of the DK Commander
4 for Active Combat Operations," and what does DK stand for?
5 A. Drina Corps.
6 MR. IVETIC: Objection, Your Honour. The witness is not
7 qualified to render meanings of documents, or at least she's not been
8 established foundationally for that purpose.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any dispute about whether DK stands for
10 Drina Corps, Mr. Ivetic.
11 MR. IVETIC: No, that's why I hesitated to rise. But I do think
12 we need to set a standard for what this witness is qualified to testify
13 about, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: If there is no dispute about these matters, you can
15 use your time better, Mr. Ivetic.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I have had several discussions with the
17 counsel about these maps. They have the maps. I have not heard one word
18 of concern, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, just as it was not necessary for Mr. Ivetic,
20 it's not necessary to further comment on the matter. I've dealt with the
21 matter sufficiently, I thought.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY:
25 Q. Now we see in the right-hand, Commander
1 Major-General Milenko Zivanovic. Can you tell us what his position was?
2 A. All right. In the --
3 MR. IVETIC: Objection, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. IVETIC: Yes. This witness is a fact witness who is provided
6 to enter maps into evidence, and I don't believe that she has been
7 identified as someone who is going to testify as to personnel and as to
8 their positions. It was not listed on the original 65 ter summary nor
9 the amended one.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gallagher, do you have sources of information
11 which could tell you who Major-General Zivanovic is?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes. Over the course of seven years of an
13 investigation, I am aware of who he is.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Can you tell us what the sources of your information
16 THE WITNESS: It comes from -- from VRS documents, from
17 intercepts, from videos.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there any -- could you then tell us what
19 you learned from those documents.
20 THE WITNESS: He was a commander of the --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for the interpretation. Thank
22 you very much.
23 THE WITNESS: He was the commander of the Drina Corps up until
24 July 13th, 1995.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any dispute about this, Mr. Ivetic?
1 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, it's about what witnesses are
2 qualified to testify about.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I asked you whether there is any dispute
4 about this position of this person during that period of time.
5 MR. IVETIC: The position of the person, no, I have no way of
6 knowing whether this witness looked at what sources, Your Honours. None
7 have been identified for us.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, again that was not my question. My
9 question was whether there was any dispute about this person having this
10 position at that period in time. That was my question. Whether there
11 was any dispute.
12 MR. IVETIC: [Microphone not activated].
13 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?
14 MR. IVETIC: [Microphone not activated] I believe I answered your
15 question, Your Honour --
16 JUDGE ORIE: You have not switched on your microphone.
17 MR. IVETIC: I believe I have answered your question,
18 Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give me the page and the line where you
21 MR. IVETIC: I guess it didn't get into the transcript, Your
22 Honour. It should be at page 7, line 22. I said I have no dispute as to
23 that. But I have no way of commenting on the sources.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's -- no dispute. Please proceed,
25 Mr. McCloskey.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
2 Q. Ms. Gallagher, where did the OTP get this map?
3 A. This particular map came from a search and seizure of
4 Milenko Zivanovic's department in 2009. This is an original map that was
5 obtained at that seizure.
6 Q. All right.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: And can we ask the usher to just show us the back
8 of the map and if you could just lift it up a bit.
9 Q. And Ms. Gallagher, we can't read those green markings, but can
10 you tell us what the back of the map shows us about them and tells us
11 about the map?
12 A. Well, you'll -- you see a stamp that says "Visegrad 1" --
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think the -- yes, if you can come a bit closer so
14 that everyone can see it. And there is one problem, Mr. Mladic may not
15 be able to see what it is. Is there any way of having this picture at
16 this moment, perhaps it is on the video. Yes. Can you see it? Could
17 someone assist Mr. Mladic to have the video there so that he can follow
18 what is now on the camera?
19 You need to push the video button. That is on the back of this
20 map, Mr. Mladic.
21 Please meanwhile proceed.
22 There are three counsel and technicians. I take it that -- no,
23 we are not going to change it, Mr. Mladic, because you can't look at from
24 two sides. You have it on your screen.
25 Please proceed.
1 THE WITNESS: What you see on the back side of the map are --
2 here are two stamps, and if we actually lift it up further, you'll see
3 two similar stamps, and what it actually is is four individual maps that
4 have been taped together.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY:
6 Q. And does the -- is the scale of map indicated on -- on that green
8 A. Yes. I believe it's 1:50.000.
9 Q. And have you learned what that means?
10 A. It means, in the scale of the map, 1 centimetre equals 500
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
13 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I have checked, Your Honour, and the maps that
14 were provided to us do not have the backside nor is it in e-court, so I
15 think that if we are going to be asking questions about something, the
16 parties should have that before them.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You'll be given an opportunity to inspect it
18 yourself during the break, and we'll assure that Ms. Gallagher remains
19 available until after the break if you have some questions about it.
20 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, Ms. --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Have you offered to Mr. Ivetic to look at the
23 original maps?
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yesterday we both looked at that very map as it
25 sat right there.
1 JUDGE ORIE: It is my recollection that I saw it even there with
2 the green parts visible.
3 Mr. Ivetic, did you have an opportunity yesterday to look at the
4 back of the maps?
5 MR. IVETIC: No, not the back. The front, Your Honours. But --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, you said you were looking at the maps
7 yesterday with Mr. Ivetic when the back was visible?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: It was not like that. It was the front --
9 JUDGE ORIE: It was --
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- but it was there to be looked at. I didn't --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- wasn't going to show him how to look at a map.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ivetic might not have been aware that
14 there was relevant information at the back.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. I think we can flip it back down so
17 we can see the map. And we can all see in the -- in the left corner:
18 "I approve, Commander Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic."
19 Q. But as we go farther down left, we see a flag with some red
20 around it. Do you know the -- it's impossible to read it from where we
21 are, but can you tell us what that geographic location is, if you know,
22 symbolised by that flag?
23 A. It's the headquarters of the Main Staff in Crna Rijeka.
24 Q. All right. And we see red marks drawn around blue marks. Can
25 you tell us what the geographic area within those red and blue marks are?
1 A. That would be the Srebrenica enclave.
2 Q. And have you learned from the investigation what the -- the red
3 and the blue marks are designed to depict?
4 A. The blue marks would be the position of the Bosnian Muslim
5 territory, and the red marks would be the Bosnian Serb positions.
6 Q. And I think we all can see that within the red and blue area is
7 two lines crossing each other. Have you learned from anything in the
8 evidence what this may, in fact, symbolise?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I object to -- now she's interpreting a
11 map and they are asking for anything that she may have reviewed. We have
12 to be very clear that this witness is a fact witness, not an opinion
13 witness. She is not here to analyse or give meaning to documents. That
14 is contrary to the jurisprudence of the Tribunal as to what witnesses may
15 do, and analysing documents is for the Chamber to do based upon the
16 evidence. And therefore I would strenuously object to this witness
17 giving meaning to things.
18 She can identify where things came from, she can identify things
19 that are apparent on the map, but to give meaning to things based upon --
20 on her work, that leads to crossing the border to an opinion witness of
21 document analysis, which is the type of testimony that has been barred by
22 several Chambers, including the Milutinovic and Djordjevic Chambers. And
23 that's a purview of the Trial Chamber to interpret documents and what
24 they may mean.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, could you tell the Chamber, the red
2 marks drawn around the blue marks -- no, let me see. You said that:
3 "Within the red and blue area two lines are crossing each
4 other ..."
5 Could you tell us what, in the view of the Prosecution, that
6 depicts or what that means?
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: It -- General Mladic said in a video what it
8 meant and that is what our view is based on.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just asking you what it is in your view.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: We believe it's a cross.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You believe it's a cross.
12 Any dispute about that?
13 MR. IVETIC: It looks like a cross. As to what it symbolises --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. First question was: Any disagreement?
15 Apparently not on that's a cross. What does the cross stand for in the
16 Prosecution's position?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: The cross is simply something that is used by the
18 Republika Srpska in the Bosnian Serb army. It's part of their coat of
19 arms. We will see more of it with a little bit more information. We
20 don't intend to go deeply into its history, it's meaning. Just what it
22 JUDGE ORIE: What is it?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: A cross. It's just a cross that's part of a coat
24 of arms. It's a religious cross. If I left out any doubt --
25 JUDGE ORIE: A cross with a religious connotation. Any dispute
1 about that.
2 MR. IVETIC: It's a cross on a map, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It's a cross on a map. Fine. Next question,
4 please, Mr. --
5 MR. IVETIC: And may [overlapping speakers] ...
6 JUDGE ORIE: What I try to do -- Mr. Ivetic, you have reminded
7 the Chamber and Mr. McCloskey what the case law of this Tribunal is. One
8 of the basics of this Tribunal is that we focus, and you will find that
9 there are many rules, that we focus on matters that are in dispute. Now
10 the Chamber wants and is best assisted to hear evidence on matters which
11 are in dispute. Would you please keep that in mind when we proceed.
12 Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.
13 And if similar objections will arise, the Chamber will focus
14 primarily to see whether there is dispute about matters or not, and where
15 agreement has apparently not been reached outside of this courtroom, then
16 we'll do it inside this courtroom and the Chamber even might assist the
17 parties at other occasions to avoid that we are spending much, much time
18 on matters which turn out to be not in dispute.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: In that regard, Mr. President, I have asked the
21 Defence if they are in dispute that this is General Mladic's signature on
22 the left-hand corner. I know they are under no obligation to answer
23 that, but it would be very helpful if we could hear their position.
24 MR. IVETIC: There is no dispute, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: No dispute. Okay.
1 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you very much.
3 Q. And, Ms. Gallagher, is there any evidence suggesting this is in
4 fact a cross on the map?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it is a cross on a map. The parties agree on
6 that. So there is no need -- unless Ms. Gallagher has any idea that it's
7 a circle or it's a triangle, but a cross is a cross.
8 Mr. McCloskey, if you have any other questions about the cross,
9 of course, you could formulate them.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY:
11 Q. Is there any evidence indicating what General Mladic --
12 General Mladic referring to a cross on a map?
13 A. There is prior indication. As you mentioned, a video where he
14 refers to a cross. If I can elaborate further?
15 Q. Please.
16 A. In a video that's from June of 1996, he is speaking to other
17 Main Staff commanders and on video he mentions that when Zepa was
18 completed, and he gestures with his hands, he placed a cross on a war and
19 combat map and he did -- and signed his name, and he did the same on --
20 with Srebrenica.
21 Q. All right.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I would --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, you're supposed not to stand. We
24 instructed you yesterday not to do that.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I would like to offer the
2 electronic copy of this map into evidence.
3 JUDGE ORIE: This map only, Mr. McCloskey, or are you -- you
4 first gave us a 65 ter number for the entirety of the --
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I would say this first 65 ter 19563 will --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Just page C20.
7 Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC: Actually, I believe it's a separate document in
9 e-court, Your Honours. So I think that would resolve the matter. I
10 think it's number 19563, that's right, it's a separate document.
11 JUDGE ORIE: It is uploaded as a separate document and tendered
12 as a separate document.
13 MR. IVETIC: Correct. And so no objection to the tendering of
14 that separate document.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 19563 will receive the number
18 JUDGE ORIE: P1084 is admitted into evidence.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now if we could go to another one of the original
20 maps that was used in the creation of the map book. This is
21 65 ter 04770, e-court page 23, map book page C18.
22 And if we could get some help, it's -- it's this map right over
23 behind me. And you may need to take off the current map. Thank you.
24 And can we have on e-court the map -- the map book, 65 ter 28747.
25 And if we could go to e-court page 23, map book page C18.
1 Q. Now, Ms. Gallagher, is this another original map in your view?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. And is this also a glued or taped-together map like the last one?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. And is it the same scale, 1:50.000?
6 A. It is.
7 Q. And in these 1:50.000 VRS maps, can you tell us the -- the
8 squares that are on the map, what are the size of those squares?
9 A. Each square represents 2 kilometres.
10 Q. Okay. And where did the OTP get this map --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Mr. McCloskey. Which squares are we
12 talking about? Okay. Thank you.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: They are very --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I've been helped. Thanks.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- impossible almost to see on the current
17 Q. And where did we get this map from, and when?
18 A. This map we got from what's called the Drina Corps collection.
19 It was a collection of Drina Corps documents, maps, records that the OTP
20 received in December 13th, 2004.
21 Q. All right. And we see in the --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Received from?
23 THE WITNESS: We -- we received it from the -- a combination of
24 the RS Ministry of Interior and Ministry of Defence.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY:
1 Q. Where was the collection originally found?
2 A. It was originally found in Serbia.
3 Q. And just briefly, how did it find its way to the OTP?
4 A. It -- the -- the RS Ministry of Defence and Interior were
5 notified of this archive that had been stored in Serbia and it was moved
6 to -- eventually to Banja Luka, and the authorities there alerted the
7 ICTY of the -- of this archive.
8 Q. All right. And we can see on the English translation that -- a
9 note that is written across this with it 12 July dated and under the name
10 Major-General, and it says "Rad Krstic." Have you learned who
11 General Krstic is?
12 A. He became commander of the Drina Corps after General Zivanovic.
13 Q. And we see the same red and blue markings. Can you tell us what
14 geographic area these two rough circles are covering?
15 A. So the -- the top circle is the same from the -- the earlier map.
16 It's the Srebrenica enclave. And then the lower area now is the Zepa
18 Q. And we can also see crosses over both those enclaves. And in
19 addition to those crosses we see some symbols, four separate symbols on
20 each of the crosses. Has the investigation led you to believe what those
21 symbols are?
22 A. Yes. I believe it's the -- the RS coat of arms and there are
23 four Cyrillic Ss.
24 Q. And do you know what those four Cyrillic Ss are -- were to stand
25 for under the RS coat of arms?
1 A. It's -- it's "Only unity saves the Serbs."
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: And just, Your Honours, to go back briefly.
3 Q. Have you been able to see a map that was used in the Sarajevo
4 portion of the case --
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's P3 in e-court at page 4.
6 Q. -- that indicated an army map?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. And on that map, the colours are reversed.
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. So can the actual colours tell us anything in specific in this
12 A. I've -- I've also seen some other ABiH maps where they have
13 changed the colours, so I don't want to speak for the ABiH maps, but with
14 the VRS maps they stay consistent, that the blue represents either the
15 ABiH or Bosnian Muslim positions and the red represents the Bosnian Serb
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: And then, Your Honour, I would offer this
18 electronic map 65 ter 04770 separately into evidence.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we deal with that matter.
20 Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
22 JUDGE ORIE: No objection.
23 Mr. Ivetic, Ms. Gallagher has given her -- how -- has told us how
24 she understood and she agreed with you that she doesn't appear as an
25 expert. Is there any of the -- I wouldn't say explanations, but any of
1 what she told us how she understands what is written on those maps, is
2 there any dispute about how she believed and how she perceived that, not
3 as an expert, but on the basis of the work she performed over the last
5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I am not in a position to say that
6 I've looked at every single map to say that that's always the case.
7 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm not -- only about her testimony today, about
8 the questions asked.
9 MR. IVETIC: You're asking me if I agree --
10 JUDGE ORIE: For example, the four Ss, is there dispute about
11 what they stand for? Is there any dispute about that these are four Ss
12 and not anything else? Is there -- if there are points of issue, the
13 Chamber would like to hear from you so that further questions can be put.
14 MR. IVETIC: If there were a dispute [Overlapping speakers] ...
15 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to think about it -- if you want to take
16 more time --
17 MR. IVETIC: There's -- I don't see -- it's visible on the map.
18 I mean, it's --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but earlier you said interpreting the maps by
20 putting questions to the witness was really reserved for experts. And
21 therefore, I'm checking now, since Ms. Gallagher does appear as a witness
22 of fact, whether there is any dispute about it, because as you know, this
23 Chamber is highly interested in any matter in dispute between the
24 parties. That's the reason why I am verifying it.
25 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You said it's -- you can see it on the map.
2 MR. IVETIC: I don't have a dispute as to this [Overlapping
3 speakers] ...
4 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. Any answer that is how Ms. Gallagher said
5 she understood what she has seen on the maps and what she was asked
6 about. That is what I'm focussing on. Take your time if there's any
8 Madam Registrar, the number will be?
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 04770 will be Exhibit P1085.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P1085 is admitted into evidence.
11 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
13 Q. Now I would like to ask you about and one of the last maps that
14 we brought in.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if I could ask the usher to remove the
16 current map. And, Your Honour, if I could get your permission for myself
17 to go up and unclip the map, I appear to be the only one that can reach.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know whether that's equality of arms
19 looking at the length of Mr. Ivetic, but please do so, Mr. McCloskey.
20 You even provided some evidence, Mr. McCloskey, showing us the
21 back with the same green markings. Apparently Mr. Ivetic agrees with me,
22 I see.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. And, Ms. Gallagher, this is 65 ter 04342, and do you believe that
25 this is an original wartime map?
1 A. Yes, I believe this is also an original.
2 Q. Is it also scaled 1:50.000?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Is it also glued and taped together in most places?
5 A. Yes, it is. We can see the -- the taping of it on the backside.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could go to e-court on page 15 of this.
7 It's also B11 in the map book, and it's -- should be 65 -- the map book,
8 as you know, is 28747, and it's the B11 in the map -- in the map book.
9 Q. And while that's coming up, can you tell us where did the OTP get
10 this original wartime map?
11 A. This was seized from the Zvornik Brigade in a search and seizure
12 in -- on March 6, 1998.
13 Q. All right. And we can read for ourselves what this map is
14 entitled: "Operational Map of the Operations Organ of the Command of the
15 Zvornik Infantry Brigade, 1993 through 1995." And we also see down in
16 the very right-hand corner of the map, in Cyrillic, the names of two
17 officers, Assistant Chief of Staff for Operations and Training Major
18 Mihajlo Galic and Major Miodrag Dragutinovic. Can you tell us who
19 Major Galic is from your knowledge of the investigation?
20 A. Well, also as stated in the map, he's the assistant chief of
21 operations and training for the Zvornik Brigade.
22 Q. And what about Miodrag Dragutinovic? Who is he?
23 A. He is the deputy to Mihajlo Galic.
24 Q. And has Dragutinovic testified at the ICTY?
25 A. Yes. He testified in the Popovic case in 2007.
1 Q. And have you reviewed his testimony?
2 A. I have.
3 Q. Can you briefly tell us what he had to say about the creation of
4 this map?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
6 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I don't believe it's proper for any
7 witness to testify about what another witness said in another proceeding
8 that is not evidence in this case, and I would strenuously object on that
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, the usual way of introducing evidence
11 from another case is to do that through 92 bis or ter.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, though, I would look to the
13 exception to hearsay is clearly admissible, and I'm not asking for the
14 testimony and any significance to be entered into evidence, merely two or
15 three points related to the creation of the map and what a couple of
16 things mean, like the colours. It is really incumbent upon us to prove
17 to you that this is authentic and what the material is, and this is the
18 kind of hearsay that I think will be very helpful without violating
19 Rule 92 bis.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it may be that if you ask Ms. Gallagher
21 whether she has developed any understanding about the colours of the maps
22 that she gives an answer, and it might turn out not to be in dispute, and
23 then I think the whole issue may disappear.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: I understand, Mr. President, but sometimes there
25 will be facts that may not be in dispute but that we want the
1 Trial Chamber to know precisely where they came from to show how reliable
2 they are.
3 JUDGE ORIE: If even that can be agreed upon. I mean, if you say
4 this map came from there and there, or authenticity, of course, is a
5 matter under Rule 89 - forgive me about which one - where the Chamber can
6 ask for proof of authenticity, the Chamber is not obliged to do so. The
7 Chamber will consider whether or not there are reasons to do so.
8 And therefore I suggest to you that you proceed as I suggested.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 MR. McCLOSKEY:
11 Q. Ms. Gallagher, let's try to look at this map and the -- frankly
12 the -- if we can go to the map on the previous. Well, no, let's leave it
13 the way it is. Can you -- and you, I believe, have a laser pointer. And
14 let's -- one thing I didn't ask you is: Which direction is north on this
16 A. North -- in all of these maps, north is pointing, as it is north,
17 so north, south, east, and west.
18 Q. And --
19 JUDGE ORIE: You mean to say north is upwards.
20 THE WITNESS: True.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And south is downwards.
22 THE WITNESS: True.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY:
25 Q. And do we have the -- do we have a river that helps us with that?
1 A. Yes, the Drina river always also travels north to south and you
2 see it on the eastern portion of the map.
3 Q. Can you use that -- I hate to use technology, but can you use
4 that laser pointer to show us where the Drina river is?
5 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has heard a lot of evidence about where
6 the Drina is, Mr. McCloskey, so therefore there is no need to do that.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Now, starting on the southern part of this map, we -- we again
9 see the red surrounded by the blue. What is the geographic area that
10 those marks are surrounding?
11 A. I think you're talking about this southern portion here?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Once again this would be the Srebrenica enclave with the blue
14 being the Muslim positions and the red being the Bosnian Serb positions.
15 Q. And we can also see, as we look down there on the translation,
16 a --
17 JUDGE ORIE: For the record, Mr. McCloskey, Ms. Gallagher pointed
18 with a laser at the blue dotted line surrounded area, immediately left to
19 the marking on the map "assistant chief of staff for operations" and the
20 two names. That's what she pointed at with the laser pen.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY:
23 Q. We also see down there in Cyrillic translated to Krivaja 95 from
24 4 July 1995 till 13 July 1995. What, based on your knowledge of the
25 investigation, is Krivaja 95?
1 A. That's the code-name given to the Srebrenica operation.
2 Q. By who? I mean, by what -- what side?
3 A. By the -- the VRS army.
4 Q. Okay. And we can now also see in the northern -- north-western
5 part of the Srebrenica enclave another circle, a -- more of an oval, that
6 has arrows coming out of it. What are the villages, if any, within that
7 oval that you're aware of?
8 A. Susnjari and Jaglici.
9 Q. And are you aware of what these blue arrows that move in a
10 north-westerly direction represent for the VRS?
11 A. It's the movement of the Bosnian Muslim column leaving the
12 Srebrenica enclave.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Here, Mr. McCloskey, of course, the witness is
14 really giving -- without knowing exactly what the sources are, she is
15 interpreting the map, and beyond what she did before. Therefore, I would
16 like to check whether there is any disagreement that this is what the
17 arrow means.
18 MR. IVETIC: I don't know, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You don't know whether there is any dispute about
21 MR. IVETIC: No, I don't. I don't know the totality of the
22 evidence yet. As you'll recall, we received the materials for this
23 witness a few days before the weekend, so have I had an opportunity to
24 investigate, to check? I don't know, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So at the moment you cannot tell us that there is
1 any dispute about this.
2 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. Ms. Gallagher, have you received specific information from the
5 person that drew on this map what these blue arrows mean?
6 A. He also stated in his testimony what the blue arrows mean, that
7 it was the movement of the column.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Who is he in this respect?
9 THE WITNESS: Sorry. General Miodrag Dragutinovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So if I understand you well, your understanding of
11 this map was confirmed to you by what you heard or have seen as the
12 testimony being given by General Milutinovic -- no, no, it's -- yes,
13 Dragutinovic. That's how we have to understand your testimony. Please
15 MR. McCLOSKEY:
16 Q. Just to clarify, are you aware of Mr. Dragutinovic's rank?
17 A. Yes. I did want to correct that. He was not a general. I
18 believe he was a major at the time.
19 Q. And can you just briefly describe the route of these that the --
20 that's depicted by the blue arrows? We can't really see them, read them,
21 but just -- these are the village names that the Court may be hearing
22 over and over again.
23 A. So once again, starting with Susnjari and Jaglici, that's where
24 they left from. They are crossing over the hills above Kravica, crossing
25 near towards Nova Kasaba, and crossing the asphalt road there. Heading
1 over towards the mountains near -- above Cerska, Udrc mountain, and
2 continuing on, heading towards -- ultimately towards Nezuk.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, the map in the courtroom at this
4 moment, of course, has no markings and wide boxes on it. Do I take it
5 that your question was about the blue arrows continuing above where it
6 says "1st Milici Infantry Brigade," because it starts at an oval, which
7 is not visible as an oval, but oval shaped, half of it we can see it, and
8 then to continue up in a north-westerly direction, up to the level
9 approximately where -- or is it going further north? Is that what your
10 question was about?
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And Mr. President, if you look at the B10,
12 you can see the map blown up without the translations obscuring the
13 arrow, and I asked Ms. Gallagher just to trace the route of the arrow and
14 give us --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Up to where --
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And --
17 JUDGE ORIE: I see -- at a certain moment I see -- near to the
18 blue arrows I see 16/07/95. Is it up to there or is it even further?
19 But we could ask the witness --
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- what she explained to us.
22 You see on the map -- we see first the arrows being thick going
23 in a north-westerly direction, then they slowly bend to the north. And
24 then we see a few thicker arrows again, and then they are slowly bending
25 to the left, and then we see 16/07/95. Is it up till there you have
1 explained or did your explanation go any further?
2 THE WITNESS: It actually brings us a little further north where
3 you see the arrows end and where the blue dashes are representing the
4 Bosnian Muslim territory. So it moves into -- just past the -- into the
5 Muslim territory and towards a town called Nezuk.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that explanation.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY:
9 Q. Now can you -- have you in your examination of this map been able
10 to find any markings that indicate a -- a possible northern border of the
11 Drina Corps?
12 A. I can't see very well where the -- if there is a border marking
13 right there where it says "IBK," that is the acronym for the East Bosnia
14 Corps, so the Drina Corps is adjacent to the East Bosnian Corps.
15 Q. All right. I won't ask you to get up there to try and find that
16 mark. I don't think that will be a problem.
17 We also see not far from -- well, where the blue arrows go
18 through, not far from Nezuk where you just pointed, various symbols in
19 Cyrillic. Do you know what those -- and they appear to be on the Serb
20 side of the lines, do you know what those are indications of?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could we then zoom in? Because if you say there are
22 various, I'd like to know exactly which ones we are talking about.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could go to -- it's page -- for the map
24 book 65 ter, it's e-court page 19, your map book page B15, Your Honour,
25 is the best blowup of this particular area.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's fine. We see some -- at least one.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 Q. Now, Ms. Gallagher, as we look at 16 July 1995 written there with
4 the arrows going past it in a north-westerly direction, where the red
5 lines and the blue lines meet, what -- do you recall was that the area of
6 a place called Baljkovica?
7 A. That's correct. That's the territory and July 16 signifies when
8 there was -- when the Muslims confronted the Bosnian Serbs in that area.
9 Q. All right. And what I was asking you about originally, we see
10 Cyrillic markings 7, 4, 6, 3, 2, 1. Do you know what those -- those
11 Cyrillic markings are?
12 A. These ones through here, these are the battalions of the
13 Zvornik Brigade.
14 Q. All right.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Then, Your Honour, I would offer this map
16 individually into evidence.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 Now I take it, again, that you asked the witness how she
19 understood these markings. What they were is a different matter. But
20 how she interpreted it.
21 Is there any dispute about that, Mr. Ivetic --
22 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- that the 1 to the 7, et cetera, stand for the
24 battalions --
25 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honour, and I assume this is -- and I
1 assume when he says "this map," I think he is talking about the original
2 big map as opposed to just the blowup.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's just a blowup. But that these Cyrillic
4 markings stand for battalions of the Zvornik Brigade is not in dispute.
5 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honours, it's a matter of translation. I
6 think on the one map some of them might be translated on the big map.
7 That was my point.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. IVETIC: I am not positive but I know that OG 4 was
10 translated on the big map that we had before us even though it was in
12 JUDGE ORIE: No, you can -- if you -- perhaps in
13 cross-examination if you'd like to further hear evidence from this
14 witness, you have an opportunity to elicit that.
15 Madam Registrar, and we are now talking about the map in its
16 entirety, isn't it -- or, just this -- the small portion we just looked
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Actually, no, the map 65 ter 04342.
19 MR. IVETIC: Correct. And I have no objection to that.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P1086.
23 JUDGE ORIE: P1086 is admitted into evidence.
24 Mr. McCloskey, I am looking at the clock. We usually take a
25 break. How much more time would you need?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: I am pretty sure we can finish within 30 minutes.
2 I just want to briefly go over the map itself, which is largely
3 self-explanatory, and leave it at that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, if it's self-explanatory and if it's in
5 evidence, then perhaps a small conversation with Mr. Ivetic, what are --
6 I mean, facts of common knowledge, of course, we can take judicial notice
7 of that. So what is blue or what is red is -- give it a try. Perhaps a
8 cup of coffee would help.
9 Shall we take a little bit of a longer break, half an hour.
10 Yes, Ms. Hochhauser.
11 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, if I might just inquire in terms of
12 the administrative matters that you intend to deal with in the next
13 session, just whether specifically we would be prepared to talk about
14 the -- the items of evidence related to witnesses Suljevic and Brennskag
15 because if so, I'll have to ask two of my colleagues to join us for the
16 next session.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We will let you know, and I just make a note. You
18 said Suljic and Brennskag.
19 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I believe I can handle the discussion as to the
20 rest of the items the Prosecution listed.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Did you say Suljic or Suljevic?
22 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Suljevic.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Suljevic, then I misunderstood you. Suljevic and
25 MS HOCHHAUSER: The remaining items on the list that the
1 Prosecution sent I believe I can address, but for those two categories I
2 would have to invite colleagues down.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We'll use that half-hour to further prepare for that
4 as well.
5 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom. We'd like to
6 see you back in half an hour.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that
10 something should be corrected in the transcript.
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE ORIE: We move for a second to private session.
13 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. We will take a break
2 and resume at 10 minutes past 11.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. McCloskey, there were two
6 items I thought whether we would deal with them on the list of
7 administrative matters for which you would need to call someone else.
8 That was Mr. Suljevic. There we are waiting, I think, for further
9 submissions by the parties. If I -- if that's correct, the 50 documents?
10 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, I don't know if that --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
12 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If they were -- sorry, if the Chamber was
13 expecting written submissions, but, Mr. Weber is prepared to deal orally
14 with those items.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps that's good if he would be in court later,
16 not necessarily now. And the other one was about the --
17 MS. HOCHHAUSER: The other one was the map agreed upon by the
18 Prosecution and Defence --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. The Chamber expects the parties to
20 present something, and we do understand that they have agreed on it. So
21 therefore we would like to see what the result is.
22 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Okay. So I'll ask Mr. Shin to come down as
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Not necessarily immediately, but ...
25 Then could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
1 Mr. McCloskey.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And, Mr. President, Mr. Ivetic did offer to
3 buy me coffee, but before we got to that, we agreed on sections B and C
4 of the map and agreed to disagree on section A of the map.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll hear from that. You said
6 section A of the map, and that is the big map, then?
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, it's section A in the map book, Your Honour.
8 Those are the maps that the Prosecutor created themselves.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: B and C were the sections of just reproductions
11 of the maps we've already gone over, and you've seen some of the
12 sections B and C, so they were just enlargements and reproductions of the
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So there is no objection against admission of
15 B and C and there is objection against A.
16 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, Your Honour.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The first map in A is already in evidence, I
19 think. So therefore that disagreement is not very productive.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Is that A1?
21 JUDGE ORIE: A1.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, okay. Then I --
23 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's on the walls of almost everyone in this
24 building, but if there is disagreement on admission, the Chamber will, of
25 course --
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, and it's really there just to put Bosnia in
2 the context of the former Yugoslavia.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's not discuss it at this moment. It's
4 clear where you agree and where you do not agree.
5 Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: So if we could go to the map book, 65 ter 28747,
7 and then let's start with what is on page 5 of e-court, it's A2 in the
8 actual map book. It's the next -- the next --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Next page.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- page in e-court.
11 Q. Who created this map?
12 A. Our GIS mapping unit as part of the OTP created it.
13 Q. And just one thing to clarify. We can see that there is a
14 legend. And the Dayton line, can you clarify to us where this thin black
15 line is, the Dayton line, because it's not -- was never clear to me until
16 you explained it.
17 A. Well, it's basically where you see the separation of the colours
18 between the Republika Srpska and the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so
19 between the orange and the yellow, the thinner black line is the
20 Dayton line.
21 Q. All right. And we see there is a scale on this, and has your
22 travel around Bosnia, does -- is that -- does that roughly correspond to
23 this scale? Do you see any problems in the scale of this simple map?
24 A. No, I don't.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's go to the next page, then, in
1 e-court, page 6, A3 in the book, 6 in the e-court.
2 Q. And who created this map graphic?
3 A. Like before, the graphic is also created by our GIS mapping unit.
4 Q. And we see the -- the information in it identifying 6 VRS corps
5 with the outline and the Bosnia-Herzegovina in the middle. Who provided
6 the information that is reflected in this map?
7 A. It -- the -- what you're referring to, I believe, is the corps
8 boundaries where the corps are located, and those were derived from our
9 military expert, Rick Butler, and I believe he used many different
10 sources for that information.
11 Q. All right. And we'll be seeing Mr. Butler eventually.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: So let's go to the next page.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You said "Bosnia-Herzegovina in the middle." It --
14 the legend says Bosnia-Herzegovina, wherever it's yellow. So therefore
15 it seems that the whole of the map, apart from the Drina Corps, is
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It's a bit confusing.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, that's a -- also a political issue, what is
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina; but you're right, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: But you said that we found that there and I find
20 contradicting information on the map. That's the only thing I want to
21 point at.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY:
23 Q. And, Ms. Gallagher, can you -- the President is, of course,
24 correct. Can you -- the corps that are marked in red with those
25 boundaries, should those be distinguished from the yellow in the middle
1 that's marked "Bosnia-Herzegovina"?
2 A. Correct. Ideally it would be better to have that a different
3 colour. I think the purpose of this map was to highlight actually the
4 Drina Corps boundaries.
5 Q. And the Drina Corps, obviously, within Bosnia-Herzegovina;
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. And we'll get to the next page which will hopefully clear that
10 JUDGE ORIE: Consistency is a good thing.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. And if --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just ask for a clarification for my own
15 self. Does it then mean that the yellow part which is marked
16 "Bosnia-Herzegovina" but which is inside where there is no corps
17 mentioned, was there no corps there of the VRS at all?
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
19 Q. Can you tell us, Ms. Gallagher, what -- who owned that at the
20 time of the war?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: At which time?
22 MR. McCLOSKEY:
23 Q. At the wartime?
24 THE WITNESS: That's correct. That would be the Bosnian Muslim
25 territory. And these maps reflect roughly the time-period of 1995.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 Q. And of course there was the Bosnian Muslim Croat Federation,
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Okay.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's go to page 7 in e-court. A4.
8 Q. Now we have -- this is a blowup, as we see, of the Drina Corps,
9 entitled: "The Drina Corps Area of Responsibility," and we can see that
10 there have been lines dividing up the various brigades of the Drina Corps
11 with the two enclaves. And the Drina river. And who provided the
12 information that went into the creation of -- of this map?
13 A. Obviously it's a map generated by our mapping unit, but the
14 underlying information of the different brigades comes from the
15 Dragutinovic Zvornik Brigade map that you saw earlier, also with the
16 assistance of military expert Rick Butler.
17 Q. Okay.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go on to the next map graphic, page 8 in
20 Q. And we see this is a very basic map with Batkovic camp marked on
21 the -- the top north and Rogatica on the bottom south. And who created
22 this map?
23 A. It is also from our mapping unit. And once again with the --
24 some of the underlying information coming from the prior Dragutinovic
25 Zvornik Brigade map, in particular the enclaves.
1 Q. All right.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to the next page 9 in e-court.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask for one clarification from the previous
4 one, the last one.
5 It seems to be just a map with -- is it true that only the
6 enclaves are added, Ms. Gallagher?
7 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, what is the basis? Because it seems to
9 be apart from that just a geographical map, and is it that you consider
10 the enclaves not to be depicted in accordance with what we find in the
11 other maps, or what is the basis for the objection to this map?
12 MR. IVETIC: Well, the basis of the objection, Your Honour, was
13 that this map did not identify the source that it came from. That was
14 the objection at the time. So we are presented with a map that appears
15 to present information that we don't know where it comes from. I don't
16 have an objection to the geographic layout of the regions. I cannot know
17 because I have not seen the entirety of the evidence if the -- I'd have
18 to look at the other map, but as I recall, there were two colours on the
19 other map and now we have three colours. So it cannot be --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see which -- where is that --
21 MR. IVETIC: There is purple, red, and blue on the map that I see
22 in the map book, Your Honour, so again -- correct, as to the Srebrenica
23 and the Zepa, there is now purple, red, and blue, whereas I believe in
24 the map that we had before it was just --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. IVETIC: -- blue and red.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Blue and red. Is there any explanation for the
3 purple around Srebrenica.
4 THE WITNESS: No, I don't know the reason for that.
5 JUDGE ORIE: So for you it's blue as purple can be is that --
6 THE WITNESS: I think it would -- it would --
7 JUDGE ORIE: The legend does not give any explanation.
8 THE WITNESS: No, that's correct. I think it would be more clear
9 and consistent if it were blue, but I believe that the dimensions, the
10 locations are the same.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay.
12 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Thank you.
14 Q. And while we're on that map, as well, is the confrontation line
15 noted in a grey colour as well?
16 A. On map 5.
17 Q. It's A05 --
18 A. 5.
19 Q. -- yes, and page 8 in e-court.
20 A. That's correct. The dark grey line is the confrontation line.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And the border with Croatia as well? I see in the
22 north -- north --
23 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- of Backo. So it's not consistent confrontation
25 line but it has several meanings.
1 THE WITNESS: Correct, yes. And you see it also used as the
2 boundary with Serbia.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that's not consistent whether it's
4 confrontation line or could it be -- I don't know, Republika Srpska BiH
5 border --
6 THE WITNESS: Be boundaries, yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's not a confrontation line.
8 THE WITNESS: No, the -- some of it is consistent with the
9 confrontation line, but, no, not the -- I think it represents more of a
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
12 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. All right. And not to get too picky, but the confrontation line
15 was the boundary in many respects at that point between the RS and the
16 VRS, was it not?
17 JUDGE ORIE: That's what the witness said a minute ago.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Oh, I don't recall that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's what you explained, that they were
20 congruent often but that the grey lines are more than just a
21 confrontation line.
22 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Can we go to page 9 in e-court; map
25 book 06.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If it assists you, Mr. McCloskey, page 40, line 25,
2 "Some of it is consistent with the confrontation line ..."
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That's where the witness said so.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. If we could -- I'm just waiting for that
7 to get up in e-court.
8 Q. That's the the northern half of that, as we can see in the map
9 book, which is fine. Now we have a different graphic. Can you tell us
10 who -- who created this graphic?
11 A. This is a combination of our mapping unit providing some of the
12 underlying data, but in 1999, our team consulted with the Dutch
13 Topographic Institute, and they were able to actually create most of the
14 map also using some of the information from Major Dragutinovic's
15 Zvornik Brigade map.
16 Q. And we don't see it in e-court, but we can see a scale down at
17 the bottom of -- of kilometres. Is that a scale based on your knowledge
18 of the distances? Is this a to-scale map?
19 A. It is to scale, that's correct.
20 Q. And I think the scale and the other material speaks for itself.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: So I think we can go to the next page, page 10 in
23 MR. IVETIC: And just for the record, since counsel said it
24 speaks for itself, we maintain an objection to the rest of the material
25 as we do not know what was the base map and what was added by the OTP or
1 the source for the OTP, and that we do highly dispute the qualifications
2 of sites as execution sites, as I don't believe any of those are on the
3 Dragutinovic map that is now being identified as the source for this map.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. We are on page 10 of e-court.
5 Q. Is this merely a blowup of the previous map or is it -- what is
7 A. No, that's correct. What's on the screen is the more southern
8 portion of the -- the same map.
9 Q. And there isn't a -- a legend on this particular map, but these
10 red lines that are coming out of Jaglici and Susnjari, what are they
11 supposed to depict?
12 A. In referring back to the large Zvornik Brigade map created by
13 Major Dragutinovic, it is the movement of the Bosnian Muslim column.
14 Q. And the green lines?
15 A. That's the delineation of the Bratunac Brigade.
16 Q. All right. And so we can see here that there was not an attempt
17 to try to replicate the colours used by the VRS?
18 A. No, that's correct.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's go to 11 in e-court.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should avoid overlapping because it's very
21 difficult for the interpreters, and you see there are some problems in
22 the record.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps in this respect you repeat what was said
25 about the colours of the VRS because that was ... could you have a look
1 at page 43, line 3, or at least the sequence between line 2 and 4.
2 I don't know whether anything is missing, but the green lines,
3 perhaps you could just repeat that. What do the green lines depict?
4 THE WITNESS: The green line represents the border of the
5 Bratunac Brigade, the word I used there is "delineations."
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that colour stands for -- the colours of
7 VRS it reads now?
8 THE WITNESS: Right. I think that Mr. McCloskey had asked
9 whether the colours represented on the large Zvornik Brigade map were the
10 same or different from the colours on our generated map and they are
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
13 Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you for clearing that up.
15 Now we should go to page 11 in e-court.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, Mr. McCloskey, if I might just
17 ask. Can I be helped as to what 1.pb, 5.pb, 2.pb, mean, et cetera,
18 et cetera?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, and that is in -- that's on your page A8 --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's correct.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And that's now up on the screen.
22 Q. Yes, Ms. Gallagher?
23 A. Those are the Zvornik Brigade battalions, so the 7th Battalion,
24 4th Battalion, 6th Battalion.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The same ones we saw earlier on the other map in
3 THE WITNESS: Correct.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, thank you.
8 Q. And the areas identified of schools and mass executions, that's
9 the material set out in the -- in the indictment, in the pre-trial brief
10 from the investigation?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. All right. That's the -- that is the last page. Oh, no it's
13 not, I'm sorry. There is one more.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: And this is on e-court page 12, A9.
15 Q. We can see two Cyrillic Ss. Is that -- is this a part of the map
16 that we saw General Krstic noted on, which is now P1085, that had the
17 cross and the four Ss on it, Zepa and Srebrenica?
18 A. That's correct. It's a -- a small blown up portion of that same
20 Q. All right. And here we have noted various IKMs, and at the risk
21 of being a bit redundant, can you tell us what IKM stands for?
22 A. It's the forward command post and those were the forward command
23 posts of the Drina Corps.
24 Q. And what operation?
25 A. This in particular refers to Zepa.
1 Q. And where did this information fundamentally come from? Who?
2 A. This would be through the course of the investigation and
3 something certainly that Rick Butler can explain.
4 Q. All right.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right, Mr. President. That is the last page
6 in dispute, and I would offer the entire book, 65 ter 28747, into
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would not object to sections B and
10 C. I also would not object to page A01 from the map book and A02 in the
11 map book, but I would object to the remainder of section A from the map
12 book for various reasons, including the fact that the witness has
13 testified that other persons provided the information and has not
14 identified the sources with the degree of detail that would permit the
15 Defence to examine the same.
16 And based upon the fact that as Mr. McCloskey -- well, I don't
17 know if it's the witness's answer, but at page 44, lines 19 through 21,
18 Mr. McCloskey offered in a leading question that the Prosecution was the
19 source of the information, that the indictment and the pre-trial brief
20 was the source of the information. So we would object at that point in
21 time as well. If this is being tendered as a demonstrative exhibit that
22 must be used with witnesses who have factual knowledge who can assist the
23 Chamber with understanding things, it cannot be presented into evidence
24 as -- for proof of the matter asserted as being a Prosecution-produced
25 piece; that is, it can only be introduced as a demonstrative exhibit
1 through witnesses with personal factual knowledge about the material.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, for you also, please slow down in your
4 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.
5 JUDGE ORIE: But you do not oppose against the use of those other
6 maps for other purposes just because they present, I take it, more or
7 less, the position of the Prosecution about what happened where and ...
8 MR. IVETIC: If they have other witnesses who can provide
9 information, then perhaps the accused and this witness cannot.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider the matter. But it's clear now that
11 for A1 and A2 and for sections B and C, there's no objection, so it's
12 likely, Mr. McCloskey, that the Chamber will decide to admit those. But
13 we have to see what to do with the other ones and whether to do it in one
14 bunch, because we have one or two already in evidence as separate maps at
15 this moment, isn't it?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, I --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Three already, yes.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would just point out I believe that a very
19 similar map for Sarajevo, P3, is in evidence, and for consistency's sake,
20 I would just point that out.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. McCloskey, if you want to be consistent,
22 that's appreciated, but to say the other party should be consistent is --
23 we leave that to the parties.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. And --
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: For the time being we'll MFI the whole binder.
2 Madam Registrar, the --
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 28747 will be P1087
4 [Realtime transcript read in error "P0187"], marked for identification.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And keeps that status for the time being.
6 Mr. McCloskey, these were all your questions. I think
7 cross-examination is delayed, Mr. Ivetic.
8 Which means, Ms. Gallagher, that this is not the conclusion of
9 your testimony. I also have to instruct you that you should not speak in
10 any way even -- yes, that that's -- Mr. McCloskey, I'm not saying not to
11 speak with but about your testimony. That's what I wanted to say. Of
12 course this is not to say that you're paralysed in your work, you cannot
13 speak anymore, but you should be very cautious and careful not to discuss
14 any issue that arose during your testimony here or any matter
15 specifically related to those maps, and that certainly I would say even
16 would be more true for those who are appearing as counsel or are directly
17 assisting counsel in this courtroom in this case.
18 I can imagine that it's a bit uncomfortable. But that is, to
19 some extent, the consequence of the offer to lead the evidence in chief
20 and then to delay the cross-examination.
21 At the same time, Mr. Ivetic, I think the sooner
22 cross-examination could start, the better it would be to not
23 unnecessarily hinder Ms. Gallagher in her performance of her duties.
24 Is this clear? It's a bit longer instruction than I usually
25 give, but -- Mr. Ivetic.
1 MR. IVETIC: That's fine, Your Honours. As a matter of fact, I
2 would suggest any time in the first week following the break in
3 proceedings would be appropriate for Ms. Gallagher to return. I don't
4 know what the scheduling of the other witnesses is, but if there is a
5 time-period there, I would be agreeable to have her come back and be the
6 next or one of the first witnesses thereafter.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 Mr. McCloskey, we don't have to decide this immediately, but if
9 you could agree with the Defence on when Ms. Gallagher will be called for
10 cross-examination, that would be ...
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We -- we need to call
12 Mr. Ruez on April 8th, but after that we'll work on a good time to put in
13 Ms. Gallagher soon thereafter, and he'll probably buy me a coffee and
14 we'll work that out.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And let's not leave it to just an offer, but
16 let's -- please do drink that coffee as well.
17 Then, Ms. Gallagher, with this instruction you are excused for
18 the time being and you may follow the usher.
19 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put on the record that the last P number is
22 incorrectly recorded at line 11 of page 47. It should be P1087.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That's hereby corrected.
24 Then we'll move on with -- Mr. McCloskey, you want to perform
25 your duties elsewhere?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, thank you. I also forgot to mention, we do
2 have copies of that map and the map with General Mladic's name on it for
3 anyone that would like them. The Defence has them. If Your Honours
4 would like them, we have them available.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You mean at this size?
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Not quite that big. And they are folded. They
7 are just right over here.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know what the size is and whether I
9 can carry them, but it's appreciated if you give them to the usher so
10 that --
11 MR. IVETIC: And if possible, could we have one for Mr. Mladic as
12 well. I have one copy, I'm told, at the Defence side, so if we could
13 have one hard copy for General Mladic to have for his review in the UNDU.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I think there was one copy for Mr. Mladic.
15 Dealing with some administrative matters. I don't know,
16 Mr. McCloskey, whether this you are -- whether this is your cup of coffee
17 as well, but --
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. I'm ready to go --
19 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not --
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not expelling you in any way, but it might not
22 be very interesting if you are not directly involved in the matter.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's much appreciated. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Ms. Hochhauser, one of the things that were
25 not on the list is the follow-up of yesterday's.
1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, that's just because the e-mail was
2 sent previous to that.
3 Mr. Traldi is available to come down whenever Your Honours would
4 like to proceed with that argument.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I think that we would like to deal with that as
6 well. Let's then start. And could you please, Ms. Hochhauser, introduce
7 the matters. We have a lot of numbers now. One of the staff members who
8 was best -- who is most knowledgeable about all these matters was not
9 available today to us, so if you would just briefly introduce the few
10 matters. Some of them are clearly on our mind, but others may be less on
11 our mind.
12 Let's start with the -- and that's not with numbers, that the
13 Mladic Defence has undertaken to provide cross-examination estimates for
14 the first several weeks in April. It now reads "once that's done," but I
15 do understand that it was done, that the scheduling can be finalised.
16 And whether there is any schedule matter the Chamber should address.
17 We have not received the final estimates?
18 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, I believe we sent out yesterday
19 the -- our finalised schedule with -- inclusive of the Defence estimates.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll have a look at it. And since we'll
21 not sit for almost a month, we might communicate with the parties on
22 matters of concern in an informal way, and then ...
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll not in any way comment on it at this very
25 moment but first have a careful look at it.
1 Then the next one is about a number of MFIs in relation to
2 witness Martin Bell.
3 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, those -- those exhibits were MFI'd
4 pursuant to the Chamber's oral decision on 31 -- pursuant at -- sorry, at
5 transcript page 7761, line 21. That refers to seven -- seven video-clips
6 played in court with Martin Bell, and they were pending CLSS review of
7 the transcript.
8 Those -- that review has been completed and those transcripts
9 have been uploaded, and so if the Registrar could then replace the
10 existing transcripts, the MFI designation could be removed.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There were no other matters in relation to
13 Madam Registrar, Exhibits P834, P835, P836, P837, P838, P839, and
14 P841 are admitted. Therefore, their status changes from MFI in exhibit.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the status will be changed. I
16 would just appreciate if counsel could communicate the new ERN numbers
17 for the translations. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So that they can be attached to the present MFI
20 MS. HOCHHAUSER: That's being sent by e-mail now.
21 JUDGE ORIE: A copy has been sent to the Defence so as to have an
22 opportunity to verify the accuracy of the communication.
23 If not, there is still a possibility to copy the Defence on it so
24 that it's --
25 MS. HOCHHAUSER: We'll see that it's done.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- it's fully transparent.
2 Then the next one is about the Witness Edin Suljic, Exhibit P957,
3 and 65 ter number 28605. You are waiting for a decision, I think? Is
5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Well, on 65 ter 28605, this was a set of
6 photographs where the Chamber directed that it be re-uploaded with only
7 the actual photographs that were shown to the witness during court. That
8 has been done. It's uploaded as 28605A.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MS. HOCHHAUSER: And so I believe that those can now be admitted.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And P957?
12 MS. HOCHHAUSER: P957, Your Honour, is the actual statement of
13 witness Edin Suljic. The Defence raised an objection to the admission of
14 the testimony, and I can recall, Mr. Ivetic sent an e-mail on 15 February
15 highlighting a portion of the transcript on which his objections were
16 based, pointing to the transcript at pages 8771 to 8773.
17 I didn't know whether the Chamber sought more information from
18 the Prosecution or a response from the Prosecution. I can provide what
19 our response would be, but otherwise, yes, we were just --
20 JUDGE ORIE: I think the Chamber is preparing a decision on that.
21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Okay.
22 JUDGE ORIE: But 65 ter 28605A, now the reduced series of
23 photographs, there are no objections against it.
24 MR. LUKIC: No objections. We didn't have objections on these
25 photos at that time either.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar, 65 ter 28605A will now receive
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be P01088.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
5 Next one, Exhibit P143 in relation to Witness RM010.
6 Ms. Hochhauser.
7 MS. HOCHHAUSER: This is just a small administrative change,
8 Your Honour, but in looking back at the transcript, we saw that the
9 Chamber requested a change in the description of this exhibit based on a
10 later witness's testimony, but I don't think that we are able to effect
11 that, that it would need to be done by the Registry at this point.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Have you suggested a new description or?
13 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes, Your Honour. If you give me one moment --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MS. HOCHHAUSER: -- I can just look here what that was.
16 The adjusted description should read:
17 "Video showing the exhumation of mass grave," and then I'll spell
18 the next two words, C-r-v-e-n-a, new word, Z-e-m-l-j-a, and then in a
19 parenthesis "red earth," end parenthesis, "dated 11 October 1996."
20 JUDGE ORIE: There are no objections against this new
21 description, Mr. Stojanovic.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, you are invited to change the
24 description in e-court.
25 Next one is Exhibit D49 in relation to Witness RM067.
1 Ms. Hochhauser.
2 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, I believe that this is a
3 translation that needed verification and we have done that. It's been
4 provided to the Defence. But I believe it's the Defence that needs to
5 then upload it since it's a D exhibit, but I just wanted to alert that it
6 has been done and provided.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, has the translation as provided by
8 the Prosecution been uploaded so that it can be attached?
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I need to check
10 whether it's been uploaded. However, in preparation for today's session,
11 we established that this document has already been admitted into evidence
12 on page 2838.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That apparently is not the problem. I could check
14 whether a translation is already attached. I suppose it is because
15 otherwise it should have been MFI'd instead of being admitted.
16 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, the transcript reference
17 that I have is - for Your Honour's instruction - is at 2845, so I think
18 it came later in the testimony.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first have a look at what is now in e-court.
20 We have in e-court a statement and we have in e-court also a
21 translation into English. Now, the question may arise whether this is
22 the translation as has now been presented or reviewed. Apparently there
23 is a new translation or is this already the new translation, which would
24 surprise me because then there should be no issue.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you can't tell us at this moment
2 whether this is an old or a new translation?
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, but I will do
4 my best to take care of that immediately.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you tell us when this
6 translation was uploaded? Whether it was at the same time when the
7 original was uploaded or at any later point in time?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, from what I can see in the e-court
9 record, on 11 October 2012, the Prosecution informed the parties and the
10 Registry that a revised translation of the exhibit was received. And
11 subsequently, on 7 November 2012, the Chamber instructed the Registry to
12 upload and connect the revised version of the translation to the exhibit
13 once informed by the party of the document.
14 So from the Registry record, Your Honour, I think the translation
15 has already been linked.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, unless there is any mistake here and that we
17 need another translation, we'll consider the matter to have been dealt
18 with --
19 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes, I'll --
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- Ms. Hochhauser.
21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: -- check again. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Then we have a long series of MFI numbers in relation to
24 Witness RM138. Could you introduce that matter, Ms. Hochhauser.
25 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes, my understanding is that these exhibits
1 were tendered through the witness and that the Chamber suggested that the
2 Prosecution provide the Registrar with a list with the 24 65 ter numbers
3 and that the Registrar would provide provisional P numbers and the
4 Chamber would then decide on admission.
5 We are not aware of any objection from the Defence to these
6 exhibits, so in the absence -- I see --
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. Not after
9 JUDGE ORIE: There are no objections. Then I'll go through them
10 one by one.
11 Documents, until now MFI'd, P693, 694, 695, 696, 697, 698, 699,
12 700, 701, 702, 703, 704, 705, 706, 707, 708, 709, 710, 711, 712, 713,
13 714, 715, and 716 are admitted into evidence.
14 If I would have looked better, I would have said 693 up to and
15 including 716. Apologies for that.
16 Next one in relation to Witness RM055, in relation to
17 Exhibit P750.
18 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes, Your Honours. P750 is the table of
19 clarifications that was related to this witness's witness statement. If
20 Your Honours would recall, there has been a series of e-mails about --
21 about this exhibit, and I understood from the last e-mail that the
22 Defence had raised an objection based on the verification of the
23 French-English translation.
24 The Chamber's e-mail requested a suggestion -- requested the
25 Prosecution suggest what the next procedure should be, and we e-mailed
1 back requesting information specifically from the Defence as to which
2 portions of the table of clarifications needed -- needed verification,
3 and then we would seek that. And that is because the table does not
4 purport to be, for the most part, actual direct translations from English
5 to French and vice versa. It contains French corrections to the French
6 version of the statement and English corrections to the English version
7 of the statement.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: We also checked it later on more thoroughly and we do
10 not have objections anymore.
11 JUDGE ORIE: P750 is admitted into evidence.
12 Then the next item, the exhibits related to the testimony of
13 Ekrem Suljevic.
14 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Actually, before Mr. Weber rises to address
15 that, Your Honour, I could also add that there's been -- I recently sent
16 an e-mail to the Chamber regarding another exhibit to -- regarding,
17 sorry, RM055's final outstanding exhibit, and that is 65 ter 05746, and
18 the parties have agreed that that -- that exhibit can be admitted.
19 JUDGE ORIE: If the parties agree on that, the Chamber has no
20 reason to deny admission.
21 Has a P number already been assigned? Not yet.
22 MS. HOCHHAUSER: No, it had not.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, 65 ter 05746 receives number?
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be P1089.
25 JUDGE ORIE: P1089 is admitted into evidence, and we strike from
1 our list the last item which related to the same document.
2 Exhibits related to the testimony of Ekrem Suljevic.
3 Mr. Weber, there were many exhibits related to that witness.
4 MR. WEBER: Good afternoon, Your Honours, and thank you just for
5 allowing us some time to recap the remaining issues from the testimony of
6 Mr. Suljevic. There are three outstanding issues from this testimony.
7 The first one, the Prosecution re-tendered P889, which was the
8 statement of the witness, with additional unredacted portions
9 corresponding to topics addressed by the Defence during its
11 The second issue is --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Shall we deal with that one?
13 MR. WEBER: I --
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- first or is it related to the other ones?
15 MR. WEBER: It may be in part at least related to the second one.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
17 MR. WEBER: The second issue was the associated exhibits to P889.
18 There are a total of 19 including the now unredacted parts of the
19 re-tendered exhibit. These are not yet marked for identification, so the
20 Prosecution just wanted to again put it on the record that these were
21 something that we had tendered.
22 At transcript page 8588, the Trial Chamber did say that it would
23 first -- that it would further consider these first two matters. So the
24 Prosecution is able to address these matters here today and go through
25 them if it's something that the Chamber would like to resolve.
1 The third issue is the comment chart marked for identification as
2 P890 and the documents commented upon by the witness in the chart. These
3 are P891 and P929, marked for identification, and I believe Your Honours
4 referenced this earlier today. The Prosecution did provide a chart to
5 the Defence for them to provide their comments on the 11th of February.
6 We have not yet received that back. With respect to this, we'd simply
7 ask the Chamber to set a dead-line for the Defence to provide us with the
8 comment chart so we can actually formally file a submission on the
9 comment chart and the related documents.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps we start with the statement of
11 the witness first.
12 Redacted version, any objection?
13 MR. LUKIC: Actually, unredacted.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Unredacted. Yes. Yes. The redacted -- some of the
15 redactions are --
16 MR. LUKIC: Removed.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- removed, yes.
18 MR. LUKIC: No objections on that. No objections on that part.
19 We really checked and I did open the door for this unredacted part to
20 come into the evidence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the new -- it has been uploaded under a
22 new 65 ter exhibit number, Mr. Weber.
23 MR. WEBER: That's correct, Your Honour. At this time the
24 Prosecution re-tenders 65 ter 28668B, as in "boy."
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for the interpreters. Thank
2 you very much.
3 MR. WEBER: As Exhibit P889.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 Madam Registrar, has 28668B [Realtime transcript read in error
6 "2866B"] been uploaded so that you can replace the same number without
7 the B with now the number with the B?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, indeed, 28668B is available in
9 e-court and will be replaced.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think I said "28668B," therefore page 60,
11 line 9, and the same problem arose in line 11, should be corrected and it
12 hereby is put on the record.
13 Now as far as the associated exhibits are concerned, they have
14 not yet been given a number. There were 19, the one we just dealt with
15 included, Mr. Weber, not included?
16 Mr. Lukic, objections to any of the 19, and if so, which ones so
17 that Mr. Weber --
18 MR. LUKIC: Objections to all of them.
19 JUDGE ORIE: To all of them.
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That's easy.
22 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at least it's simple and straight-forward.
24 The reason for the objection being?
25 MR. LUKIC: Since those documents were not integral or
1 indispensable to the written statement, the witness neither authored nor
2 received nor saw those documents during the time-period where -- and he
3 has no personal knowledge of the documents whatsoever. He does not have
4 a personal knowledge of a single document enumerated on this list.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
6 MR. LUKIC: We have more but --
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 MR. LUKIC: Sorry. He is not even in the position to properly
9 authenticate the documents because he has no knowledge of any of those
10 documents whatsoever.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So I do understand that the main reasons for
12 your objection is that whatever these documents are, they are not
13 suitably be admitted through this witness?
14 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: In view of the present situation, Mr. Weber, I
17 cannot verify at this very moment whether I have all the 65 ter numbers
18 ready, which selection. If you would have a list, then we'll first look
19 at the documents and then decide whether it's of any use to assign
20 numbers to them or not.
21 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour. I can again provide the list. We
22 would at least that they be marked for identification.
23 And if I could just note for the record, just so it's on the
24 record, that 11 of the 19 documents are documents that were either
25 drafted by the witness or directly involved investigations that he was
1 part of, so he does have direct personal knowledge of them. So I don't
2 know whether Mr. Lukic would be willing to reconsider his position. I am
3 happy to at least read in what those documents would be, one by one, and
4 then further address the eight remaining. However the Chamber would
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you're invited to closer look at the
7 documents and -- I suggest the following: You provide the Chamber with
8 the list of 19. We'll not mark them for identification at this very
9 moment. Mr. Lukic will informally communicate with the Chamber within
10 one week from now - would that be reasonable, Mr. Lukic? - whether your
11 position that you object to all of them stands or whether there are
12 exceptions. The Chamber will then also look at the documents, will look
13 at any further information provided by Mr. Lukic, and then we may - I am
14 not saying we will - we may already invite Madam Registrar to
15 provisionally assign numbers to them and deal with admission thereafter.
16 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour. And then the Prosecution remains
17 available to address any further matters with respect to all
18 19 documents.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: As you'll understand, whether we'll ask the
21 Registrar to provisionally assign numbers may depend on after having
22 reviewed the documents whether we expect that we would admit them.
23 Having dealt with that, the Chamber would be happy to receive
24 through Chamber staff the list of 19.
25 MR. WEBER: I do have a list.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
2 MR. WEBER: I have multiple copies of the list
3 available [overlapping speakers] ...
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are not going to read them at this moment.
5 But if you would give three or four copies to Chamber staff, then that
6 would be appreciated.
7 Next one, expert report on --
8 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt you. But there
9 was the third matter. We were just asking if we could have a dead-line
10 set --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. WEBER: -- for the comment chart and the [overlapping
13 speakers] ...
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I had forgotten that you -- you're not seeking
15 a decision yet, but, Mr. Lukic --
16 MR. LUKIC: Obviously I --
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- for P890 --
18 MR. LUKIC: For the record, just maybe I mixed. There were two
19 statements and actually the second one, I was addressing the second one,
20 and Mr. Weber is addressing this one as a comment chart. So now I stand
21 corrected in regard of the first statement, since there might be some
22 documents we can accept but it's better to do in writing.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I suggest the following: The only
24 decision that has been taken at this moment was about P889. That is
25 admitted in its new version. If you mixed up anything as far as
1 associated exhibits are concerned, please, coffee or tea, I leave it to
2 you, with Mr. Weber, try to find out whether all your objections stand,
3 because that's where we were anyhow. We have a list of 19 and we'll hear
4 from you whether it changes or whether your discussions with Mr. Weber
5 changes anything. And apart from that, you're invited to give your
6 comments on the other document.
7 If you have done so already, then there is no need to put a
8 dead-line if -- but that could be part of your coffee discussion as well,
9 I take it.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then we leave it -- that in the hands of the
13 Next one, expert report 65 ter 28541, Patrick Van der Weijden.
14 Ms. Hochhauser.
15 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, the Prosecution just sought to know
16 from the Chamber whether it was wanting any additional arguments or
17 anything --
18 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think that the Chamber is preparing a decision
19 on the matter and is not seeking at this moment any additional argument.
20 Next one, the map agreed by the Prosecution and Defence with
21 respect to the location of the incident in Geteova Street 12, which was
22 discussed, Mr. Shin, when Mr. Brennskag testified.
23 MR. SHIN: Thank you. Good afternoon, Your Honours. And good
24 afternoon, counsel.
25 At the Chamber's request, I did meet with Mr. Stojanovic, and we
1 agreed to mark -- we agreed on a map that shows where the approximate
2 location of that incident was, and I just wanted to briefly explain how
3 the map should be read.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could we then have it our screen --
5 MR. SHIN: Yes. Could I have 65 ter 28754, please.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, once again, the interpreters are kindly
7 asking the parties to slow down. There are many numbers. Please slow
8 down, thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We admire you for not being lost far earlier.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. SHIN: Yes. And slowly, I will proceed. This 65 ter shows
12 two maps, two pages. If we could go to the second page on e-court first,
14 Now on this map we can see to the right of the G6 a blue circle
15 which, as the legend in that box in the lower right-hand corner shows,
16 marks the approximate location of that projectile's impact.
17 If I could then please go back to the first page. There is
18 actually a blue circle in that same place indicating the same. You may
19 need to zoom in to be able to see it, but it's -- this map will provide
20 the context within which you may be able to look at that at that second
21 page. We do note that, as agreed with Defence counsel, this shows the
22 approximate location of the impact.
23 The more precise location, Your Honours may wish to take a look
24 at D240, particularly pages 15 and 16 of the B/C/S version. And if I
25 could please have D240 brought up on e-court.
1 Pages 15 and 16 together constitute two halves of a diagram
2 that -- that indicate the more precise location of the impact, and I just
3 note that on page 16 Your Honours will see at the bottom the S which I
4 understand to mean "north" in B/C/S, so for some map readers this map may
5 be upside down.
6 In addition, Your Honours may wish also to refer to P993, which
7 we do not need on e-court, but those are the photographs accompanying
8 this -- photographs -- I'm sorry, photographs that are relevant for this
9 site, and the photographs also show more precisely the -- the context in
10 which the impact occurs.
11 And finally I would note that on the same D240 --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask --
13 MR. SHIN: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- do I understand that the arrow with the S points
15 in northerly direction.
16 MR. SHIN: Yes. My understanding is that S stands for "sjever"
17 or "sever" and this is "north" in B/C/S. This is the B/C/S version we
18 are looking at.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And just for me to know for sure that I fully
20 understand, could we go back to the map you agreed upon. The detailed
21 map of the location. [Overlapping speakers] ...
22 MR. SHIN: Page 2 please.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Page 2.
24 Yes. I therefore do understand that where this road which is
25 indicated by Geteova bends, that that is the same bend as we saw on the
1 other one but just opposite direction, 130 degrees different.
2 MR. SHIN: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Because I do understand that this map shows north
4 above, perhaps not exactly but almost completely to the top of the map.
5 Is that the situation then? I think I understand it.
7 MR. SHIN: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours. And just one final
8 point, with regards to D240, which we don't need on e-court, there is
9 also at page 14 of the B/C/S and page 12 of the English a more detailed
10 legend for that diagram, that two-page diagram, which indicates what
11 those numbers on the diagram mean and which show the precise location of
12 the impact.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's all on D240 which is admitted, I
14 think. Is that --
15 MR. SHIN: Yes, that's correct.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So therefore the only thing we now have to
17 admit is the new two-page document uploaded, the broader and the more
18 detailed map indicating the location of the impact of G6.
19 MR. SHIN: That's correct, Your Honours. And if I may just point
20 out that these two pages do come from exhibit -- the underlying maps are
21 from Exhibit P3 and they constitute pages -- e-court page 37 and e-court
22 page 6 from that exhibit, plus, of course, the markings that we
24 JUDGE ORIE: They looked very familiar to the Chamber.
25 Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 28754 will receive number
3 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
4 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Ms. Hochhauser.
6 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, if I might just go back for a
7 moment to number 5 on the list, which was D49, in regard to
8 Witness RM067. I think we still have some dispute over whether the
9 transcript currently uploaded is the most recent one. We've sent an
10 e-mail to Defence, Chambers and Registry with the -- what we believe
11 should be the correct transcript.
12 JUDGE ORIE: That's hereby on the record and we don't need to
13 further deal or decide with it at this moment.
14 Then one of the outstanding matters, Mr. Traldi, were a long list
15 of exhibits or not exhibits, depending on what you discussed over tea or
17 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour, and I'd suggest we discuss this in
18 closed session.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We discuss it in closed session.
20 We turn into closed session. Would private do under the
21 circumstances, Mr. Traldi?
22 [Private session]
11 Pages 9486-9499 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 I have a few items to deal with. The first is D44, which was
15 MFI'd with Witness Vulliamy. Per e-mail of the 25th of January, 2013,
16 the Chamber inquired from the Defence whether it still intends to tender
17 D44, and if so, when the Chamber can expect the transcripts of the video
18 in question, as well as the position of the Prosecution, and we have not
19 yet received a response, I think. It's the video. You certainly will
20 remember, "The Way to Omarska," I think it was.
21 MR. LUKIC: I have to admit that it escaped our attention,
22 Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll hear from you. Will you please
24 come back to it as soon as possible.
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'll move on.
2 D184, marked for identification. It was marked for
3 identification on the 18th of February, pending submission by the Defence
4 of a complete translation in English. The Defence notified the Chamber
5 that a complete translation is now uploaded in e-court as 1D02-3256, and
6 the Defence seeks to leave to replace the version currently in e-court
7 with the complete translation.
8 On the 26th of February, the Prosecution informed the Chamber
9 that it does not object to this replacement.
10 Therefore, Madam Registrar, you are hereby instructed to replace
11 doc ID R106-8801-1 with the complete translation, and D184 is admitted
12 into evidence with this complete translation.
13 Next, D65 MFI'd, also a missing translation, was marked for
14 identification through Witness Husein Aly Abdel-Razek, due to the lack of
15 a final translation - I refer to transcript page 3661 - and admitted into
16 evidence on the 10th of December as the awaited translation had already
17 been received, transcript page 5994.
18 The Chamber notes the request of the Defence sent via an informal
19 communication on the 20th of February, 2013, to replace the English
20 translation of D65, as it is currently in e-court, with doc 1D00-6282
21 with another English translation with doc ID 1D02-3138.
22 Is there any objections from the Prosecution to a -- I take it to
23 replace it by a better translation, Mr. Lukic? Or if you would like to
24 check first.
25 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Is it a translation that -- that is from CLSS?
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, from the CLSS.
2 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Okay. Then I don't have an objection to its
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, the new translation of which
5 I just read out the number may replace the old one in D65 and you are
6 instructed to replace it.
7 May I take it that that was uploaded already?
8 MR. LUKIC: I was informed that it has been uploaded already,
9 Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you confirm that
11 1D02-3138 ...
12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. The translation is available
13 in e-court.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then it may replace the old one.
15 Then I move to the next one on my list. D113, which was MFI'd
16 during the testimony of Witness RM163 on the 12th of December due to a
17 reservation by the Chamber to verify whether a handwritten original
18 exists and if there are earlier or later entries into the log-book.
19 In an e-mail of the 22nd of February of this year, the
20 Prosecution notified that it was unable to find any indication with
21 regard to an underlying handwritten version and that it doesn't possess
22 any other entries into the log-book. It submits that the document was
23 obtained from the UNPF in Zagreb on the 27th of August, 1996, and that it
24 does not contest the authenticity of D113.
25 Since the Prosecution, as indicated before, has no objection to
1 the admission, the Chamber admits D113 into evidence.
2 I move on to the next item. The Defence has requested delays,
3 extensions of time, for responses to 92 bis motions. I think it's
4 standing procedure that the Prosecution does not object to that, and
5 therefore the Chamber allows an extension of 30 days for the 14th
6 Rule 92 bis motion; 15 days for the 15th motion; 60 days for the
7 17th motion; and finally, 45 days for the 17th Rule 92 bis motion.
8 I think I misspoke. Yes. It was 60 days for the 16th motion.
9 Apologies for that.
10 Then we move onto the next item. The Defence has sent an e-mail
11 on the 22nd of February informing the Chamber, as it was instructed on
12 the 18th of February, as to when it would anticipate being in the
13 position to file its Rule 94 bis (B) notice to the Prosecution's notice
14 of disclosure of expert reports by six forensic witnesses.
15 The Defence submits that the forensic expert appointed by the
16 Registry will need at least 60 days to review the report.
17 Now, Mr. Lukic, does the Chamber understand correctly that the
18 Defence is requesting to submit its notice 60 days from the date of the
19 disclosure of -- or date of the -- of the e-mail? Which one?
20 MR. LUKIC: But there are some new developments, actually, we
21 tried to solve with the Prosecution, Your Honour. We notified that there
22 are some missing translations -- actually, not some, several, of the
23 reports. And our experts in Serbia cannot work without those
24 translations, so I think it was sent yesterday.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest that the Chamber hears within a week
1 from the parties.
2 Mr. Lukic, it may be clear to you that the Chamber would like to
3 know whether it's from the date of your e-mail. I take it that your --
4 MR. LUKIC: At that time --
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- experts can start working already, even if they
6 have not all the material. So therefore -- but at the same time, the
7 Chamber will consider any further shortcomings or flaws in the way in
8 which the material was presented to the extent it has such an effect that
9 you would need more time.
10 Mr. Traldi, Ms. Hochhauser, any further comments?
11 MS. HOCHHAUSER: No, Your Honour. We are in possession of the
12 e-mail and we'll take a look at -- take a look at it and refer back to
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then the Chamber - whatever the outcome of
15 this is, and the Chamber would like to be informed about it - then the
16 Chamber would also like to be informed about whether 60 days from the
17 date on which the e-mail was sent should be sufficient.
18 MR. LUKIC: We will do so, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 And then the Chamber might informally communicate its decision
21 and then put it on the record later.
22 Military lexicon. The Chamber was informed in e-mails sent by
23 the Defence on the 22nd of February that upon review of the revised
24 military lexicon under Rule 65 ter number 28687, it has no objections to
25 its admission.
1 Therefore, Madam Registrar, 65 ter 28687 would receive number?
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 28687 will be P1097.
3 JUDGE ORIE: P1097 is admitted into evidence.
4 I move on to my next item. In court on the 18th of February, the
5 Prosecution informed the Chamber of its intention to use the upcoming
6 court adjournment to prepare and file bar table motions concerning crimes
7 related to the municipalities and the siege of Sarajevo components of its
8 case, requesting the Chamber to allow for such filings in apparent
9 deviation from its guidance with respect to the timing of bar table
11 Through informal communication on the 22nd of February, the
12 Defence informed the Chamber that it objected to the timing of such bar
13 table motions, adding that, in accordance with the Chamber's guidance,
14 any such filings should be made at the end of the case and that it does
15 not have the capacity to deal with such motions during trial.
16 The Trial Chamber -- the Chamber takes this opportunity to remind
17 the parties that the guidance referred in fact permits the submission of
18 bar table motions at the close of the presentation of individual
19 components of the case as long as they comply with the Chamber's general
20 guidance on bar table submissions. The parties can find this guidance at
21 transcript pages 234 up to 236.
22 And the Prosecution request to file the relevant bar table
23 motions is therefore moot.
24 We briefly move into private session.
25 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
18 On the 14th of February of this year, at transcript page 8621,
19 the Chamber reminded the Defence to make submissions regarding
20 Exhibits P802 to 805, four documents that were MFI'd during the testimony
21 of Witness Rupert Smith on the 24th of January, 2013.
22 The Defence was again reminded through an informal communication
23 sent on the 18th of February, 2013, in which the Chamber requested the
24 Defence to make oral submissions in court by the 22nd of February, 2013.
25 No submissions have yet been received.
1 Mr. Lukic, any explanation for this course of events?
2 MR. LUKIC: I will just -- I was trying to inquire about the
3 issue, and my colleague Ivetic told me that actually we are waiting for
4 the Prosecution to file bar table and then we will respond.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hochhauser.
6 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, I don't have specific information
7 about communications that Mr. Lukic or his team may have had with
8 Mr. Groome, and so I can't confirm or deny, but I would suggest that I
9 will send an e-mail on the topic when Mr. Groome returns.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: It is -- Mr. Lukic, numbers have been assigned
12 already which would not be the case if we were still waiting for a bar
13 table submission, I think, unless it was that they were tendered and that
14 the discussion -- but my recollection doesn't serve me well at this
15 moment whether it would not be preferable to have them bar tabled in
16 relation to this witness rather than to have them admitted through that
18 MS. HOCHHAUSER: It's been -- it's been pointed out to me that
19 there were some documents that were bar tabled at the time that the
20 witness was testifying or offered orally through the bar table in court.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I can imagine --
22 MS. HOCHHAUSER: And that may be the case with these documents.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Sometimes there is an objection against a document
24 being admitted through that witness and then sometimes oral bar table
25 applications are made, and I think that might have been the case here.
1 And then we are still waiting for any responses to those applications to
2 have them admitted, even if not through that witness.
3 MR. LUKIC: Obviously I -- I didn't understand properly at the
4 time. I was thinking about -- I was waiting for a written bar table
5 but --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. LUKIC: -- if we can get a couple of additional days so we
8 can respond.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One week, would that do?
10 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll hear from you in one week.
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Finally, the last item on my agenda is the one I had
14 stricken because it was dealt with already. Therefore, the previous one
15 was the last one.
16 Any further matter to be raised by the parties before we have a
17 period of non-sitting, a relatively long period of non-sitting?
18 MR. TRALDI: Just, Your Honour, last Thursday, during the
19 testimony of RM045, and I believe it's at transcript page 9157, Mr. Lukic
20 said he would give -- he would make submissions this week about P1003,
21 MFI. That's the chart of names used with that witness. I spoke to him
22 during the break and he said he might -- he'd be prepared to make -- to
23 say something briefly now, or at least that's how I understood him.
24 JUDGE ORIE: If that's the case, you have an opportunity to do
25 so, Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: All we have to say is that we maintain our
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's a short submission. My recollection
4 doesn't serve me well enough to know whether you had given grounds for
5 that earlier. If not, I would invite you to do it. If you have given
6 full grounds, then we'll consider the matter and decide on it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Is that an issue of admissibility or is it an issue
12 of probative value and weight to be attached?
13 MR. LUKIC: I think it's more of probative value. Yeah.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then, may I then take it that -- for probative value
15 it's usually not -- or do you say it has nonprobative value whatsoever
16 and therefore should not be admitted, which of course is --
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes, that's what [overlapping speakers] ...
18 JUDGE ORIE: That's your position.
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The absence of any probative value opposes the
21 document to be admitted.
22 Mr. Traldi.
23 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, on the merits, we would submit that
24 that's an issue of weight. Separately, I would request that lines 8
25 through 11 of page 91 of today's transcript be redacted from the public
1 version. I think that's a reference to testimony given --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. TRALDI: -- in private session.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar is hereby instructed to
5 prepare the redaction.
6 Nothing else on the matter.
7 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, if I could just briefly seek that we go
8 into private session.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --
10 MR. TRALDI: I would seek leave to correct one matter from
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll move into private session.
13 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 Then if there is nothing else on the record, Madam Registrar, we
24 are scheduled to resume in early April, on the 8th of April. Do we know
25 already in which courtroom? Courtroom I, my colleagues tell me. We then
1 adjourn until the 8th of April at 9.30 in the morning in this same
2 Courtroom I.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.40 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Monday, the 8th day of April,
5 2013, at 9.30 a.m.