1 Monday, 8 April 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused not present]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.42 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in this courtroom.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 The Chamber was informed, Mr. Lukic, that Mr. Mladic has
11 expressed that he, for medical reasons, is unable to attend. We have,
12 however, not seen yet any medical confirmation of this -- these medical
14 Could you inform the Chamber, could you tell us what you know and
15 where we are at this moment.
16 MR. LUKIC: I know -- I don't know much more than Your Honours,
17 since I was informed by the guard this morning that Mr. Mladic was not
18 here when I asked to visit him. And my co-counsel called me later on to
19 tell me that Mr. Mladic informed him that he doesn't feel well, and our
20 intention is to go and visit him as soon as possible to check and see if
21 it's possible at least to have a trial tomorrow.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether we have a trial tomorrow, whether we
23 have a trial today, depends on the medical situation, I would say.
24 The Chamber has asked the Registry to provide a medical report on
25 shortest notice. We will then -- well, see what it says. If there's any
1 confirmed medical reason, of course, we'll wait until Mr. Mladic is well
2 enough to attend court. If the medical report says that there's no
3 medical reason not for him to attend, then we most likely would proceed.
4 And, of course, if you have any additional information on the basis of
5 any of the counsel visiting Mr. Mladic, we would like to hear that.
6 I also understand, just for completeness, that Mr. Mladic did not
7 sign any waiver form. So we'll not proceed until then.
8 We would have quite a number of very practical matters, such as
9 replacement of translations, or putting on the record some decisions
10 which the Defence is aware of already. We would not even deal with
11 those, unless you say, Well, these purely practical matters, we can
12 proceed with those. Then, of course, we would proceed, but not without
13 the consent of the Defence, the Defence being the accused and/or counsel.
14 MR. LUKIC: Is that all?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, if you want -- if you say, No, I'd
16 rather wait until Mr. Mladic has had an opportunity to --
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes, of course, I would rather wait.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Even for putting on the record replacement of
19 translations, et cetera, that's --
20 MR. LUKIC: Of course not. For those technical issues, we can
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I -- under those circumstances, if you
23 say that we can proceed with that, then we would do that. I have quite a
24 list after the couple of weeks since we have not been in court.
25 One second, please.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will not read any of the decisions which
3 even in cases where the -- where the Defence is already aware of the
4 outcome of that decision, but we'll wait for either Mr. Mladic to be
5 present or for a medical report before we deal with that.
6 At the same time, decisions already known to the Defence to put
7 them on the record, Mr. Mladic -- Mr. Lukic, I take it that that should
8 be no problem.
9 MR. LUKIC: No problem, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any observations from the Defence -- from the
12 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'd like to proceed with a few matters.
14 First, the Chamber has decided at the request of the Defence not
15 to sit on Monday, the 6th of May, 2013, and that decision is hereby put
16 on the record.
17 Then next item. The Chamber hereby puts on the record its
18 confidential decision which was issued on the 13th of March, 2013,
19 denying a request by the accused to amend the trial sitting schedule on
20 the basis of health concerns having found that there is no basis for such
21 an amendment and declaring moot a request for permission of verbal
22 communication with the Defence team during the proceedings.
23 Mr. Lukic, when I deal with anything you think would be
24 inappropriate to deal with, then please jump up and tell us.
25 I then move on to the next item. The Chamber was informed by the
1 Registry that Rule 65 ter number 8746 and 8542 were each admitted twice.
2 First, on the 27th of February, 2013, and then on the 1st of March, 2013,
4 The Registry is instructed to vacate the exhibit numbers assigned
5 to these Rule 65 ter numbers on the 1st of March, 2013. So that was on
6 the second round; namely, D266 and D267. Rule 65 ter 8746 shall remain
7 on the record as D249, and Rule 65 ter 8542 shall remain on the record as
9 I move on to the next item. On the 28th of February of this
10 year, the Chamber reserved exhibit numbers D251 up to and including D260
11 for possible assignment to documents tendered through Witness RM513
12 pending discussion on admission of these documents, discussion between
13 the parties. On the 1st of March, the Defence clarified that it sought
14 admission of only four of these documents - that is, D255, D257, D259,
15 and D260 - which were admitted into evidence under seal. The Chamber
16 hereby puts on the record that the six remaining reserved exhibit numbers
17 are therefore vacated.
18 I move on to the next one, which is about the military lexicon.
19 On the 1st of March, 2013, the -- at the Chamber's instruction,
20 the Registry assigned exhibit number P1097 to the revised military
21 lexicon. The Chamber has since been informed by the Registry that the
22 Rule 65 ter number it was instructed to assign an exhibit number to was
23 not the military lexicon but an already existing exhibit, namely, P1020,
24 admitted pursuant to the decision on Prosecution's 7th motion to admit
25 evidence pursuant to Rule 92 bis, a decision which was delivered on the
1 6th of February, 2013. For purposes of correcting the record, the
2 Chamber clarifies that the revised military lexicon bears Rule 65 ter
3 number 28678 and not as it was read out on the record, or at least as it
4 appears on the transcript, on the 1st of March, Rule 65 ter 28687. It
5 seems that the last two digits have been mixed up. Noting that P1097
6 has, in the meantime, been used for another Rule 65 ter number, the
7 Chamber kindly instructs the Registry to assign a new exhibit number to
8 Rule 65 ter 28678, which is the military lexicon.
9 I move to the ...
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar says that she's ready to assign a
13 new exhibit number to Rule 65 ter 28678. Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28678 receives number P1116,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: P1116, the military lexicon, is admitted into
18 I move on to my next item.
19 On the 1st of March of this year, the Chamber, upon a Prosecution
20 request, invited the Registry to amend the description on e-court in
21 relation to admitted Exhibit P143. The parties have previously been
22 informed of the procedure in this regard but the Chamber takes this
23 opportunity to remind everyone thereof.
24 The parties give descriptions to Rule 65 ter documents. Once a
25 document is admitted, the Registry will give a neutral description of the
1 document solely based on the content of the document. For technical
2 reasons, the party descriptions may still be visible for exhibits on
3 e-court, but they do not form part of the exhibit and will not appear
4 once the public exhibits are put on the public judicial database. The
5 Chamber, in any event, does not rely on the descriptions but on the
6 content of the documents.
7 Now, with regard to P143, the Prosecution is seeking a change in
8 the description on e-court and presumably in the surrogate sheet.
9 Accordingly, the Prosecution should upload an amended surrogate sheet
10 under a new doc ID number and inform the Registry thereof. This newly
11 uploaded document should then also contain the matching meta data. Until
12 this is done, P143 is MFI'd.
13 I move on to my next item. The document D199 was MFI'd due to an
14 incomplete English translation. On the 28th of February of this year,
15 the Defence notified that they had received the CLSS translation of D199
16 and sought permission, if the Prosecution agreed, to replace the English
17 translation currently in e-court with the doc ID 1D02-3637. The
18 Prosecution notified, on the 1st of March, per e-mail, that it agreed to
20 The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace the
21 translation and admits D199 into evidence.
22 I move on to the next item. On the 6th of March, the Chamber was
23 informed by the Prosecution that the B/C/S translation of Exhibit P866,
24 which was admitted through Witness RM157, was uploaded in e-court as
25 doc ID Y003-4753-B/C/S T, in capitals. The Registry is instructed to
1 attach the B/C/S translation to the English original.
2 Next item. On the 1st of March, 2013, the Defence informed the
3 Chamber that a full B/C/S version of MFI D118, including the cover page,
4 as requested by the Chamber, has been uploaded into e-court as doc ID
5 number 1D02-3677 and requests leave to replace the current version in
6 e-court with this complete translation.
7 Is there any objection from the Prosecution's part?
8 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber then requests the Registry to replace
10 doc ID number 1D01-2871 with the complete B/C/S version uploaded as
11 doc 1D02-3677 and hereby admits Exhibit D118 into evidence.
12 Next item deals with D44 MFI'd. Per e-mail of the
13 25th of January, 2013, the Chamber inquired with the Defence whether it
14 still intends to tender D44; and, if so, when the Chamber can expect the
15 transcripts of the video in question, as well as the position of the
16 Prosecution in this regard.
17 The Chamber raised the matter in court on the 1st of March, 2013,
18 but the Defence was not able to reply at that moment. We have, as yet,
19 not received any response to our questions, and the Chamber wonders
20 whether the parties are in a position to provide the Chamber with an
21 update in this respect.
22 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I will definitely have to check with our
23 Case Manager --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. LUKIC: -- on the status of this document.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we hear from you -- well, let's say, if
2 possible, today at least, if not, then by tomorrow.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
5 MR. GROOME: We'll do the same, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
7 Then I move on to my next item. On the 28th of February, 2013 -
8 and the issue is about P512 MFI'd - the Chamber instructed the
9 Prosecution to re-visit P512, in light of its decision on the associated
10 exhibits of Witness Thomas and to inform the Chamber once it has done so.
11 On the 14th of March, 2013, the Prosecution informed the Chamber,
12 through an informal communication, that a revised version of P512 has
13 been uploaded in e-court under 65 ter number 19703b. This is herewith
14 put on the record, and the Chamber instructs the Registry to replace the
15 current version in e-court with the revised version and admits this
16 version into evidence.
17 I move on to the next item relating to Exhibit P706. On the
18 19th of February, the Prosecution informed per e-mail that it had located
19 another English translation of the B/C/S original admitted as P706 which,
20 it submits, more accurately reflects the B/C/S original and seeks
21 permission, subject to agreement from the Defence, to replace the current
22 English translation with this newly identified translation.
23 Mr. --
24 MR. LUKIC: No objections.
25 JUDGE ORIE: There are no objections.
1 Then the Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace the
2 document bearing ERN 0303-3680-0303-3688 with the new English translation
3 bearing ERN 0301-2528-0301-2536.
4 The next item deals with the Defence request for additional time
5 to respond to the 20th and the 21st Rule 92 bis motion.
6 The Chamber puts on the record its decision to grant the
7 Defence's request filed on the 21st of March of this year for an
8 additional 60 days to respond to the Prosecution's 20th and 21st Rule 92
9 bis motions, communicated informally to the parties on that same day.
10 I hereby note that the deadline, thus, becomes the 27th of May,
12 The next item deals with the anticipated date of filing of
13 Defence Rule 94 bis (B) notice with respect to six forensic expert
14 witnesses. On 28th of March, 2013, the Chamber notified the Defence that
15 the Defence was expected to filed its Rule 94 bis (B) notice with respect
16 to the six proposed forensic expert witnesses noticed in the
17 Prosecution's 7th of November, 2012, filing by the 22nd of April, 2013.
18 Is there anything the parties would like to add in relation of
19 this data filing of the 94 bis (B) notice?
20 If not, I move on -- which I move on to an item dealing with
21 Exhibit P1016. The document bearing Rule 65 ter number 28685 was
22 admitted into evidence by the Chamber's decision on Prosecution's
23 7th motion to admit evidence, pursuant to Rule 92 bis, a decision of the
24 6th of February, 2013, and on the 27th of February it was assigned
25 exhibit number P1016. This document was unredacted, while, by the
1 Chamber's decision, it was admitted in redacted form. By e-mail dated
2 the 6th of March, 2013, the Prosecution informed the Chamber that it had
3 uploaded the document in redacted form under Rule 65 ter number 28685a.
4 The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to remove the unredacted
5 version and replace it with the redacted version.
6 I move on to the next item.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Your Honour. In -- in thinking about
10 your previous subject of the -- the experts, that the Defence is supposed
11 to tell us their response, and that -- that's a particularly important
12 response for us to hear as you can imagine. There's people coming from
13 all over the world. We have provided the Defence some of the
14 translations that they requested 3/4/2013. However, there's an ongoing
15 discussion that we're having with them. They have suggested they would
16 like translations of -- of autopsy reports and we have never translated
17 the thousands of autopsy reports we have for the pathologist for
18 Srebrenica, and we have -- have entered into informal discussions with
19 them about that. But that's something that we do need to get decided
20 between ourselves very soon because it will hold up everything that we
21 are doing.
22 And so I hope to speak to Mr. Lukic about that, but I did want to
23 alert you that that is a potential issue. It's a very large amount of
24 translations that we have never done and we hope to work that out with
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are they new or are they used in other cases?
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: They're old. They've been around since the
3 Krstic case, most of them, that we're talking that are related to our OTP
4 pathologist that did the autopsies for the first few years.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, is it that you want to have translations
6 of some of them which are of particular concern to you, or do you say
7 just all of them?
8 MR. LUKIC: I think it's better to talk with Mr. McCloskey during
9 the break, and I think my co-counsel Mr. Stojanovic is much better expert
10 on that issue, since they dealt with all of them previously.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll wait for the result of such a
12 conversation. I'm not going to advise you on whether to have a cup of
13 coffee or a cup of tea with it, but that's where we are.
14 Then I move on to my next item, which deals with the confidential
15 status of exhibits which were tendered through Witness RM513.
16 Pursuant to an instruction by the Chamber on the 1st of March,
17 2013 - I'm referring to transcript page 9494 - the Prosecution has made
18 submissions by e-mail with regard to the confidential status of several
19 documents tendered through Witness RM513. The Prosecution's position is
20 that any exhibits which bear the witness's name, directly relate to the
21 witness's employment or otherwise create a risk of identifying the
22 witness should be under seal. This includes the following:
23 Exhibits P1053; P1054; P1057 up to and including P1060; P1091 up to and
24 including P1096; as well as Exhibits D255; D257; D259; and D260, which
25 were the only four documents which were eventually tendered by the
1 Defence. The others which were mentioned in the Prosecution's e-mail
2 have been vacated.
3 The Prosecution further submits that P1063, which had tentatively
4 been placed under seal, should be made public.
5 Finally, with regard to P1096, MFI, the Prosecution submits that
6 this document will be tendered as a public exhibit through a different
8 My question to the Defence is whether there are any objections
9 with regard to the confidential status of these documents as I read them
10 out a minute ago?
11 MR. LUKIC: If the Prosecution thinks that it should be closed
12 because of the safety of the witness, we have no objections.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
14 Then the Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to update the
15 status of these exhibits accordingly and to vacate Exhibit number P1096.
16 I have dealt with all of the technical issues. I refrain at this
17 moment, Mr. Lukic, from reading any oral decisions which are not known
18 yet to the Defence.
19 Are there any other matters any of the parties would like to
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have one technical procedural matter
22 that might be appropriate to deal with at this point in time.
23 Your Honours, the Defence, on the 2nd of April, 2013, filed a
24 response to the Prosecution motion for admission of utterances of
25 Mr. Mladic. The Prosecution is in the process of assessing whether it
1 will file a reply. I raise this for -- simply for the following
2 procedural reason.
3 In paragraph 25 of the Defence response, the Defence writes:
4 "The Defence renews its motion seeking a reduction in the number
5 of sitting days based on the deteriorated health of the accused."
6 There is no specific relief in this regard sought in the relief
7 section of that response. The Prosecution seeks guidance from the
8 Chamber whether paragraph 25 in the response will be deemed a formal
9 motion to which the Prosecution should respond. It would be the
10 Prosecution's preference that if the Defence do intend to file another
11 motion with respect to the -- the sitting schedule, that it be done in a
12 separate filing so that the Prosecution can respond to that issue fully.
13 Thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: Our intention is to file separate motion,
16 Your Honour, in accordance with the -- the letter we received on the
17 2nd of April, and as attachment we received the 20th of March, 2013,
18 letter from reporting medical officer from the UNDU who also proposed to
19 have four-day sitting during the week.
20 So, yes, we will file separate motion, or, if you want me, I can
21 have an oral motion right now. Whatever is your preference.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the matter is not simple. I would suggest
23 that you file a separate motion and that you agree that the Chamber will
24 not -- in its decision on the motion for admission for utterances of
25 Mr. Mladic will not deal with the request as contained in the response.
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. We'll file the separate motion.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then that's clear.
3 Any other matter?
4 MR. GROOME: Not from the Prosecution, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, is there any update as far as
6 the medical reporting of the accused is concerned?
7 THE REGISTRAR: Not yet, Your Honours. I just checked with the
8 Detention Unit. They're waiting for a report to be submitted by the
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Mr. Lukic, by the way, I should have mentioned, that you had
12 requested to be allowed to have your mobile phone in court so that you
13 could receive any text messages updating you on the situation. And, of
14 course, the Chamber has no objections to that.
15 Now the question is, did you read anything on your little screen
16 or not yet?
17 MR. LUKIC: Not yet, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Not yet.
19 Then I suggest that we adjourn or take a break, depending on what
20 messages we will receive. I think it would be wise anyhow to perhaps
21 briefly come back to court once we have received any medical report.
22 And, therefore, the parties are instructed to remain stand by.
23 We adjourn either for later today or until tomorrow.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, is there -- let me see ...
2 Mr. Lukic, can there anything you learned, meanwhile, which could
3 assist the Chamber in dealing with the present situation?
4 MR. LUKIC: Since we cannot contact directly our client at the
5 UNDU, I called my legal consultant, Ivetic, to try to contact the UNDU
6 and try to reach Mr. Mladic to give consent for this medical
7 documentation be provided for the Chamber and the Registrar.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And we do not know yet whether he has given it
9 or not.
10 MR. LUKIC: He hasn't, for sure.
11 JUDGE ORIE: He has not.
12 MR. LUKIC: Because he has not been contacted.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, anything else you have learned or is that
15 MR. LUKIC: Nothing more than you know from the Registrar,
16 because I'm talking to Madam Registrar as well and I know what you know.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me, first, put on the record what we have
18 received until now.
19 We have received a form titled: "Absence from court due to
20 illness," which consists of a declaration, and it's split up in three
22 The first:
23 "I am unable to attend court proceedings on this date due to
25 That box is ticked which we understand to be that Mr. Mladic says
1 that he is unable to attend court proceedings due to illness.
2 The second box:
3 "I have discussed the matter with counsel."
4 That box is -- it's a bit unclear. There is something ticked,
5 but I'll re-visit this issue later.
6 Then the third item on this form is not ticked, and that's the
7 one where a person involved would state that he knows his rights and that
8 he waives.
9 So, therefore, the Chamber understands that there is no waiver at
10 this moment.
11 There is a handwritten addition in Cyrillic, which we have not
12 yet received in a formal translation. This absence from court due to
13 illness form apparently is signed by Mr. Mladic.
14 We have a report from the principal officer, and I read the
15 relevant portions.
16 "I confirm receipt of this form from the detainee named over at
18 The -- it refers to the part of the form I just did put on the
19 record signed by Mr. Mladic. In the box "Other comments," it reads:
20 "He did sign but he didn't get in contact yet with his counsel.
21 He is trying it from 9.00."
22 The Chamber understands this that Mr. Mladic has had no
23 opportunity to consult with counsel but that he's seeking to establish
25 Then we have -- the second half of this page of the report is the
1 UNDU medical service where it says questions 1, 2, 4, and 5 must be
2 answered, 3, not necessarily.
3 Box under, number 1, is ticked which reads:
4 "I confirm that I've examined the detainee named on the preceding
6 Boxes 2A and 2B, and I read it, they're not ticked. Not the
7 first one, 2A; not the second one, 2B.
8 "I confirm that he has observable symptoms which indicate that he
9 may feel too unwell to attend court."
10 This therefore was not established.
12 "I confirm that he has no observable symptoms with which I can
13 judge whether or not he is too unwell to attend court."
14 Again, not ticked.
15 On question 4, 4A, which is -- the box is ticked:
16 "Including today, I assess that he will require a one-day absence
17 before he should be fit to attend court once more."
18 Then the several options under 5. 5C is ticked:
19 "The medical officer will see the detainee today."
20 What is not ticked is 5B, the medical officer has seen the
22 Other comments, 6:
23 "The specialist recommended him not to go to court for today."
24 This is signed by J. Nordan, and it's added VPKMO, which the
25 Chamber interprets as the nurse.
1 The Chamber was not aware of any specialist involvement and
2 wondered what specialist had recommended Mr. Mladic not to go to court
3 for today. We sought information through the Registry, and the following
4 appeared to us. Mr. Mladic has been in Bronovo hospital early this
5 morning. That's what we learned. We have not received any indication on
6 whether there was any urgency matter or not, and, therefore, the Chamber
7 certainly considers it a reasonable possibility, because, otherwise, we
8 would have informed about any urgent matter, that it was a routine or a
9 pre-scheduled visit to the Bronovo hospital for whatever reasons.
10 The Chamber inquired with the UNDU to at least know what kind of
11 specialist it was that Mr. Mladic has visited this morning, and this
12 information was not provided to us, so we have got no idea what
13 specialist he consulted this morning, neither do we have any idea --
14 well, what -- what diagnosis there was, which allowed already to say that
15 it would last only for one day.
16 Which means that, at this moment, based on a recommendation - not
17 even being clear who gave this information to the nurse - without any
18 observable symptoms having been considered by the nurse who wrote this,
19 and purely on the basis of what, most likely, is a routine visit to the
20 Bronovo to a specialist unknown to the Chamber but apparently
21 pre-scheduled, that we are now informed that we should, for medical
22 reasons, not continue. That's at least the gist of what we see.
23 Under those circumstances, the Chamber considers, as matters
24 stand now, that there's no medical reason not to proceed. Therefore, the
25 Chamber will give an opportunity to the parties to make further
1 observations on this initial analysis of the present situation and we'll
2 then decide whether or not we will proceed.
3 I give an opportunity, Prosecution first.
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I think that there are two things that
5 I would have -- the Prosecution would have concern with, with respect to
6 the Chamber's analysis.
7 One is with respect to the failure to check 2A, 2B. The Chamber
8 seems to be drawing the -- or concluding from the failure for the person
9 who filled out this form to check either box that there were no
10 observable symptoms, and that does -- from my understanding it does not
11 seem that it excludes the possibility that the person made an inadvertent
12 error when they failed to check that, so I wonder whether the Chamber
13 would want to make an inquiry from this person. I remind the Chamber
14 that there is the videolink, so in a few minutes this nurse could be on
15 the video screen and available to answer questions by the Chamber to --
16 to confirm what exactly this person observed this morning.
17 And then the second thing, Your Honour, with respect to Bronovo
18 hospital, I think that in fairness would require some more detailed
19 information about whether Mr. Mladic had any control over being sent to
20 Bronovo this morning. Even if it was a regularly scheduled appointment,
21 it would seem that if he had no voluntary way of not going, was simply
22 sent there, it seems that the fault would lie not with Mr. Mladic for his
23 absence but with the Registry for not informing the Chamber that it had
24 made arrangements to have him see a doctor or specialist in Bronovo
1 Those would be the two concerns that the Prosecution would have,
2 Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: How we see this is -- regarding this 2A and 2B, it
5 might even that be the nurse at this moment didn't see Mr. Mladic but she
6 only was actually leaning on the recommendation of the specialist. And
7 from the practice, we know that it cannot be scheduled visit at this
8 early hours of the morning. Scheduled visits usually take place after
9 11.00, as we know.
10 So having in mind this time, we think it was something urgent,
11 and we -- we probably need another break to inquire about this waiver. I
12 don't think that Mr. Mladic will not give it. The only thing is to
13 contact him through the regular channels of the UNDU, and sometimes it
14 does take time.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Let me briefly -- if you're finished --
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I am.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let me briefly address the matters raised.
18 First, not ticking the boxes 2A and 2B, the suggestion that it
19 might have been inadvertently done, for the Chamber, seems not to be the
20 most likely interpretation.
21 First of all, the report was written by a nurse; but, still, a
22 nurse can observe anything. But from the information the Chamber
23 received, we concluded that it was exclusively on the basis of a
24 recommendation, and we do not know whether it was a direct recommendation
25 to the nurse by the Bronovo hospital or by the specialist, or whether it
1 was conveyed to the nurse by Mr. Mladic. Since not knowing this, of
2 course, what we would like to know is what kind of a visit it was.
3 Now, the UNDU medical services has refused to give us information
4 as to whether it's an ear, nose and throat specialist or whatever. I can
5 imagine that if it would have been an urgent -- sending Mr. Mladic to the
6 cardiologist in Bronovo hospital that the situation might have been
7 different. But if there would have been an urgent matter causing the
8 UNDU medical services to send Mr. Mladic to Bronovo hospital, we, the
9 Chamber, should have been informed about. It is unimaginable for this
10 Chamber that such an urgency would not immediately be reported to us, and
11 the information we received through the Registry does not hint in any way
12 to such an urgent matter.
13 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, if I may interrupt, I'm sorry, I just
14 got the information --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. LUKIC: -- which is very fresh. Maybe it can help.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
18 MR. LUKIC: It says that the report -- actually, that Mr. Mladic
19 cannot sign anything before 1.00 p.m., since the medical doctor cannot be
20 there before 1.00, compose the report, and after he composes the report,
21 Mr. Mladic can sign it. Only afterwards.
22 So we cannot expect anything before 1.00.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That is a practical piece of information.
24 One second, please.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could you inform us about the medical
2 doctor, which medical doctor that is?
3 MR. LUKIC: Mr. Falke. Dr. Falke.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Falke. Yes, that is the UNDU -- okay.
5 Now, I continue where I stopped. That -- that is, that
6 apparently on the basis of a recommendation - and apparently exclusively
7 on that - not knowing how it was conveyed, that we are supposed not to
8 continue for medical reasons.
9 Mr. Lukic, the first and, of course, important thing also, would
10 be to hear from Mr. Mladic whether he would agree for us to know what
11 kind of specialist he saw.
12 Mr. Lukic, you've also seen then, most likely, a handwritten
13 note. Can you -- it's apparently read in Cyrillic. Could you read to us
14 what you see there.
15 MR. LUKIC: It says: "Or RM" in Cyrillic, but I think it should
16 be GRM, General Ratko Mladic.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any way that it could be O-r-i, Orie, a
18 message to me.
19 MR. LUKIC: I would read it as GRM. And it said: "Sleeping
21 I think that he wanted to send a message, short message, that he
22 is going to sleep because he doesn't feel well.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then, of course -- let me -- I receive an
24 e-mail at this moment. Mr. Lukic, just allow me a second to read it.
25 I -- I will put on the record the information as we receive it
1 now, which is the -- a message from the officer in charge of the
2 United Nations Detention Unit, and he, first of all, informs us that the
3 medical officer in line with the normal attendance schedule will be
4 present in the UNDU this afternoon, which seems to confirm, Mr. Lukic,
5 what you said.
6 He apparently also informed the officer in charge of the
7 UN Detention Unit that Mr. Mladic attended a pre-scheduled consultation
8 with a specialist at an external hospital early this morning. The
9 consultation included a minor invasive procedure, and afterwards, the
10 specialist recommended that Mr. Mladic rest for the remainder of day.
11 I understand from the medical officer that this is a possibility
12 for this type of procedure, but it is also common that patients are able
13 to continue as normal. And the medical officer has offered to put this
14 information in writing this afternoon.
15 We'll consider all of this, and I'll now continue with the
16 preliminary observations in relation to the observations made by the
17 parties. We have dealt with the inadvertent -- the possibility of an
18 inadvertent not ticking out. From what I have now just read, it may well
19 be that the nurse has not either confirmed that she did see observable
20 symptoms, but also that she was also not confident to confirm that he has
21 no observable symptoms which would allow the nurse to draw any further
23 The second one was whether it was regular or scheduled.
24 Mr. Lukic, I think you'll be very happy that if you need an appointment
25 at any hospital in The Hague, that they will receive you early in the
1 morning so that you can attend court in time. I must the same as is my
2 experience. Going to hospital early in the morning allows you to be in
3 time in court. I think this is sufficiently cleared up now by the
4 message I just read, that it was a pre-scheduled visit. The Chamber, by
5 the way, would have been -- would have welcomed to be informed about this
6 kind of appointment, which clearly are at risk to have an impact on the
7 court proceedings.
8 Yes, we have dealt with the early hours.
9 What then remains is that the specialist apparently recommended -
10 I don't know how this was conveyed; we still do not know - that
11 Mr. Mladic take rest for the rest of the day. We still do not know what
12 kind of diagnosis or what exactly it was. The minor invasive issue, we
13 do not know what it is.
14 I suggest that ...
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would like to briefly discuss among
17 themselves the information it has reached the Chamber and then decide on
18 whether or not to proceed today or to wait until tomorrow.
19 Meanwhile, Mr. Lukic, if you would have -- if Mr. Ivetic would
20 have any opportunity to check with Mr. Mladic about giving us the
21 information, that might be relevant for us, and if there would be any
22 possibility, either through videolink or otherwise, to be in touch with
23 Mr. -- Dr. Falke to further assess the necessity of not sitting today,
24 the Registry is invited to create communication between the Chamber and
25 Dr. Falke or the specialist in the hospital, the external hospital.
1 We don't know yet how much time we would need for it. We'll take
2 a break, and the parties are invited to remain stand by.
3 --- Break taken at 11.37 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 12.03 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, before we continue, is there any new
6 information you can provide us with?
7 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Any new information from the Prosecution?
9 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Chamber has carefully considered and
11 analysed the situation at present and has decided that we'll not proceed
12 today, that we'll adjourn for the day, and that we'll resume tomorrow,
13 Tuesday, the 9th of April, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same
14 courtroom, I.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.04 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day of
17 April, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.