130410ED

Page 9576

1 25 minutes left during this session, that perhaps in the next session,

2 also in view of the assessment you gave on how much time you would need,

3 that we would conclude in the next session, the cross-examination.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for these

5 instructions.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. I apologise sincerely for this incident and I regret your having

10 been forced to experience it. I have a few questions for you.

11 Up until the 11th of July, 1995, you were a member of the

12 28th Division of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the village where you

13 resided; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell us what specific tasks you had as a member of the

16 that unit, per establishment? Did you have any rank?

17 A. No. I was just posted on the line. We were holding the line,

18 and that was all.

19 Q. What weapons did you have?

20 A. Nothing.

21 Q. At the time when you were discharging military duties, were you

22 issued with automatic weapons?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So how were you discharging your military duties of securing the

25 lines?

Page 9577

1 A. While the area was not protected, there were a couple of rifles

2 available, but after it became a safe haven, the rifles were seized. And

3 after that, there were neither any lines, nor soldiers.

4 Q. After the zone was established, the protected zone, were you

5 active as a member of the brigade?

6 A. No.

7 Q. In which activities were you involved after the protected area

8 was established?

9 A. I wasn't involved in anything. I was simply a refugee.

10 Q. Do you know that from the area where you stayed, offensive

11 activities were launched against the VRS territories in 1994 and 1995?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the

13 witness's answer because of the overlapping.

14 JUDGE ORIE: One second. The interpreters draw our attention to

15 the fact that they did not hear the witness's answer and then you started

16 already your next question.

17 Is that the last portion of the answer which we see on the

18 transcript? After where the witness said that he was simply a refugee,

19 or is it already the answer to the next question?

20 THE INTERPRETER: The answer to the next question.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 Could you please repeat your answer to the question, whether you

23 know that from the area where you were staying, offensive activities were

24 launched against the VRS territories in 1994 and 1995. Whether you are

25 aware of that.

Page 9578

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic. And take a break

3 after you've asked your question.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. On the 11th of July, an order arrived for the able-bodied men to

6 proceed to the Jaglici village; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Are you -- can you tell the Chamber, to the best of your

9 knowledge, who issued the order to send the able-bodied men to Jaglici

10 and women and children to Potocari?

11 A. I heard that from other people. But who originally issued this

12 order, I really don't know.

13 Q. In the village where you were staying, was there a military

14 command that was capable of receiving and forwarding such an order?

15 A. Zulfo was a former commander but I didn't hear anything

16 personally from him. I heard it from other people. He was a commander

17 there.

18 Q. When you say "commander," are you talking about Zulfo Tursunovic?

19 Am I right?

20 A. Yes, you are.

21 Q. Can you please repeat your answer, because I don't think it's

22 been recorded, and please wait a bit and after I have finished my

23 question. Thank you.

24 How long did it take you, and how many of you, left from the area

25 where you had been to the village of Jaglici?

Page 9579

1 A. I don't know exactly. I was in the group made up of some 10 or

2 15 people, and it took us about 45 minutes, up to an hour. I'm not sure.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I invite you to look at your text

4 screen, if it as -- and wait until it stops moving after a question has

5 been put to you and only then answer it. Because there's an overlap in

6 speakers, and our transcribers need time and our interpreters need time

7 to give us the right information.

8 Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Upon arrival in Jaglici, did you see armed military formations

11 and soldiers of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12 A. When I arrived in Jaglici, there were between 10.000 and

13 15.000 people. I'm not sure whether some of them were armed or not.

14 Q. Can you be more specific when you say you're not sure? You saw

15 them or you didn't see them?

16 A. No.

17 Q. To the best of your recollection, while passing in -- in the

18 column, which task you were given? What were you told about your

19 destination?

20 A. We were told that we were going to Tuzla.

21 Q. Did you know that that was the VRS-controlled territory?

22 A. Which territory are you referring to?

23 Q. The territory through which the column was passing towards Tuzla,

24 did that involve the passage beyond the Srebrenica enclave and the

25 passage through the territory controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska?

Page 9580

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were you aware that this area was mined?

3 A. No. But I was able to notice that there were mines planted

4 there.

5 Q. Who personally directed these activities? And who led you

6 towards Tuzla?

7 A. Nobody led me. I headed on my way along with all the others.

8 Q. To the best of your recollection, on the route before you were

9 captured, how many people from the column perished?

10 A. At one location, I saw four or five dead bodies, people who were

11 killed. Then the next location, near Kamenica, there was an ambush

12 there. There was a tree that had been felled and there were about

13 300 dead there.

14 Q. Were you, at any point, exposed to shooting?

15 A. Yes. The whole time.

16 Q. Did somebody get killed while passing through the minefields?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you see if anyone committed suicide?

19 A. I'm not sure. It is possible, but I'm not sure.

20 Q. To the best of your recollection, please tell the Chamber more

21 specifically where the Kamenica location is, where you saw about 300 dead

22 bodies.

23 A. I am not quite sure if you walk through the forest from Jaglici

24 towards Kamenica, I don't know the exact location because I had never

25 been there before.

Page 9581

1 Q. Thank you. To the best of your recollection, on the

2 13th of July, you said that you were captured on the morning of that day.

3 Can you tell the Court an approximate time when you were taken prisoner?

4 A. It may have been at around 7.00. I am not sure.

5 Q. Thank you. You don't know if you were captured by the military

6 or the police.

7 A. No, I'm not sure. I think it was the military.

8 Q. So, from 7.00, according to your estimate, until 1400 hours,

9 that's the time you spent in the school; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell the Court how many of you were in this school in

12 total and how many of you walked or were taken on foot to the football

13 pitch in Kasaba?

14 A. I think that there were ten people. And then they captured

15 another man in the vicinity of the school. That makes a total of 11, but

16 I'm not quite sure. And then all of us were then returned to the

17 football pitch.

18 Q. Let us now deal with an issue that we deem to be significant.

19 According to your estimate, when you were brought to the football

20 pitch - and that was between 1400 hours, or, let's say, at around

21 1400 hours, if I'm not mistaken - how many people were there?

22 A. Between 1500 and 2.000.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I

24 would kindly that the document that I'm going to use be under seal. So

25 can we please have document 1D870 in e-court. That's the witness's

Page 9582

1 statement given on the 20th of July, 1996, to the State Commission for

2 the Collection of Facts Relating to War Crimes. And I would draw your

3 attention to page number 2 in the B/C/S and in English as well.

4 Q. The last paragraph, where you say:

5 "At the stadium, there was a large number of prisoners, both

6 civilians and soldiers. I think that we numbered several hundred people

7 and the number kept growing as they were bringing people from all

8 directions whom they had captured in the surrounding area."

9 Do you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. This is my question for you. When, a moment ago, you said that,

12 in your estimate, at the time of your arrival, there were between 1.500

13 and 2.000 people, was that a number that -- of people that you saw there

14 when you got there, or was it the number of people at the time when you

15 were being transported?

16 A. I think that referred to the time when we were still there.

17 There were other people still arriving.

18 Q. From the point when you got there and until the point when

19 General Mladic appeared there, were there other prisoners brought over?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. Let's have a look at a portion of the transcript of your evidence

22 in the Karadzic case.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we call up in e-court

24 page 35 of the transcript from the Karadzic case, which I believe was

25 today assigned the number P --

Page 9583

1 THE REGISTRAR: P1119, Your Honours.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 35, line 5.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could we -- could you assist us in giving the page

4 number in the previous case, the Karadzic case.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And for the transcript, it's P1119.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 35 in e-court, line 5.

7 And page 24146. That's the transcript page from the Karadzic case.

8 24146.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, there are only five pages in

10 e-court.

11 MS. HASAN: If I can just assist, it's because, I believe, that's

12 only what we uploaded, the excerpts we proffered into evidence. So this

13 portion of the Karadzic transcripts would not be included but perhaps it

14 can be read out.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Your Honours, then,

16 with your leave, we have uploaded it. It's 1D867. 1D867. Can we have

17 page 35 in e-court, then. It corresponds to page 24146.

18 Q. Can I direct your attention to line 5.

19 Sir, in the Karadzic case, you also spoke about this issue, and

20 you said that, at the time, that the number of people who were present at

21 the football field grew to about 2- or 3.000 people. You see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Today you told us that, to the best of your knowledge, there were

24 between 1.500 and 2.000 people. So in your view what would be the most

25 accurate figure?

Page 9584

1 A. Well, I don't know exactly. I did say when I was testifying in

2 the Karadzic case that it was between 2- or 3.000. There may have been

3 even been 4.000 people. I'm not sure.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- yes.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. I'll ask to you look at a document, which is 65 ter 28756. It's

9 a collection of photographs which we plan to use with the next witness.

10 And I'd like us to look at page 43 of the document. That's to say, the

11 photograph on that page.

12 Sir --

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the

14 transcript, let me say that this is one of the photographs from the

15 collection we received from the Prosecution. It's dated the

16 13th of July, 1995, 1400 hours, precisely at the time that the witness

17 referred to as having been brought over to the football pitch and that

18 would be the time when the number of people that he mentioned were there.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, it's not very common that someone who

20 is not examining the witness intervenes, but if there's any special

21 reason, please tell us.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, and I do it reluctantly, Your Honour, and --

23 but because we are out of sequence, I wanted to point out this is an

24 aerial image provided pursuant to Rule 70 by the United States. It is

25 open and been used many times, as we know. But I just wanted to clarify

Page 9585

1 that this squiggly mark next to 1400 hours is told to us by the

2 United States to mean about 1400 hours. We were going to be getting into

3 that with Mr. Ruez a bit, but I just wanted to clear that up for the

4 record.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the 1400 hours is preceded by a

6 small sign, which, as I understand, is often used to indicate that it is

7 an approximate indication and not a precise one.

8 I take it that the clarification is helpful. Please proceed.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I do

10 accept that that is the case. And I did say that it corresponded to what

11 the witness had said. He did say that he was brought over to this place

12 at about 1400 hours.

13 Q. Witness, do you recognise this area?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Will you agree with me that this is an aerial image of the

16 football pitch at Nova Kasaba?

17 A. Yes.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Are you able to see the disposition of people who were either

21 seated or standing in the field in these two groups?

22 A. Well, I think that this group over here was seated; whereas this

23 other was standing. I'm not sure. It is an aerial image, after all.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, it would be not be on the record

25 what this group over here or the other group would be. We have a group

Page 9588

1 road leading to Konjevic Polje; right?

2 A. Yes. I was facing this group, the other group that was there.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Can we have the

5 usher's assistance now to hand the pen to the witness.

6 Q. And, Witness, to the best of your recollection, can you draw a

7 circle indicating the area where you were seated, approximately, at the

8 point of General Mladic's arrival.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, before we do so, let me try to

10 clarify one thing.

11 You said, asking about which direction the witness was facing,

12 whether he was facing in the direction of the road. That means more to

13 the bottom of the photograph.

14 The witness said: "I was facing the other group."

15 Which is -- may -- it at least creates some ambiguity. Because

16 the other group is, from this larger group, not in the direction of the

17 road, but, rather, in a different direction.

18 So before you ask the witness to mark where he was, or after

19 that, could you ask him to mark with an arrow which direction he was

20 facing when being seated so that we know, for sure, in which direction it

21 was.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance.

23 I think that it is only proper to do it this way. I was wrong.

24 Q. Could you please, Witness, when marking the area where you were,

25 draw an arrow that will indicate the way you were facing.

Page 9589

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Thank you. Can you now draw a circle to indicate the spot where

3 you were when General Mladic arrived, to the best of your recollection.

4 Thank you.

5 A. [Marks]

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript,

7 let me say that the witness drew an irregular circle in the central part

8 of the photograph.

9 Q. Can you place number 1 next to it.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. That would indicate the spot where you were.

12 Now I'd like to ask you to draw a circle to indicate the spot

13 where General Mladic was when he addressed you.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Can you please write "RM" next to that circle.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Thank you. At the time when General Ratko Mladic arrived, do you

18 remember there being some UNPROFOR or UN vehicles there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you tell Their Honours how many such vehicles there were,

21 that you recall?

22 A. There was one UN vehicle. I think it was an APC, I'm not sure.

23 There were Serbian APCs.

24 I do want to say that this is where, roughly, the military APC

25 was, this is where the army was, but this image doesn't reflect that at

Page 9590

1 all.

2 Q. Thank you. I will ask you, however, to place "OT" next to that

3 circle, which would stand for "armoured carrier."

4 And next to the line that you drew, can you just write the army,

5 "V"?

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Thank you. And then, if you can recall, can you mark the spot on

8 this image where the UN armoured carrier was?

9 A. It was roughly in this area.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Can you place "UN" next to it.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. On his arrival, General Ratko Mladic addressed you from the spot

15 that you've just marked.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And he told you that you would all be exchanged; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. He also told you that it wasn't possible at all for you to break

20 your way through to Tuzla because there were quite a few ambushes and

21 obstacles in the way; is that right?

22 A. He said that nobody would be able to pass, not even a bird, that

23 nobody would be able to advance not even for 100 metres [as interpreted].

24 And as far as I know, there was no attempt at breaking through that area

25 anyway.

Page 9591

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm being told

2 that in line 14 of the transcript what the witness said was misconstrued.

3 It was said here that it was 100 metres, whereas the witness said -- or

4 perhaps I could resolve this through a question.

5 Q. Witness, can you just tell Their Honours, to the best of your

6 recollection, what did exactly General Mladic say to you apart from the

7 fact that you would be exchanged?

8 A. Okay. When General Mladic came, he addressed us. He said that

9 we would all be exchanged, that we would be having lunch in Bratunac,

10 that he would organise groups that would go out into the hills and woods

11 to collect the wounded. All those who were killed would be buried. He

12 ordered that a list of all of us who were there be drawn. He designated

13 a group of some four to five soldiers to register everyone.

14 Q. And when he said that he would send you all off to Bratunac for

15 lunch, were there any comments made?

16 A. I don't remember.

17 Q. Do you remember if, at the time, there were wounded individuals

18 among you at the football pitch in Kasaba?

19 A. Yes, there were wounded people.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, before you put the last question,

21 you apparently had some concerns about the transcript and about the

22 100 metres.

23 Now if that concern exists, it has been -- not been resolved.

24 Perhaps I ask the following question.

25 Witness, you said something about that Mr. Mladic told you that

Page 9592

1 you wouldn't make it very far, and, in that context, the transcript tells

2 us that you mentioned 100 metres.

3 Could you tell us what that -- whether that accurately reflects

4 what you said?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. He said that there were

6 100 lines between that place and Tuzla and that not even a bird can fly

7 over.

8 JUDGE ORIE: That is now clear.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

11 Q. Sir, do you remember if the Serbian soldiers provided first aid

12 to the wounded people?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you please explain to the Court what you saw and how they

15 provided this assistance.

16 A. I saw them bandaging people who were wounded. They were putting

17 bandages on them. That's what I recall.

18 Q. That was the time while General Mladic was still there.

19 A. I think so. I'm not sure, but I think so.

20 Q. You were also offered a possibility to use some water. Do you

21 remember that?

22 A. I'm not sure.

23 Q. You're also not sure whether the list drawn up on that occasion

24 containing the number of people on the pitch was finalised before the

25 departure of General Mladic.

Page 9593

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How long did those five people take to make up the list of the

3 people in -- on the pitch in Kasaba?

4 A. I don't know, but I remember that as people were leaving the

5 column their names were taken down. If I remember correctly, there was a

6 table. Everyone had to pass by that table, give their name and date of

7 birth, and then board the bus.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last

9 sentence.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. So this registering --

12 JUDGE ORIE: One second. The witness is invited to repeat the

13 last part of his previous answer.

14 "Everyone had to pass by that table," you said, "give their name

15 and date of birth, and then board the bus."

16 And what did you say after that?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After that, when the buses were

18 full, some people were left behind on the pitch, after me.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. So this list was made while people were boarding the buses. Am I

21 right?

22 A. Yes, I think you are.

23 Q. At that location, General Mladic was no longer there. Am I

24 right?

25 A. No, I'm not sure. I think he was.

Page 9594

1 Q. To the best of your recollection, how long did he stay there?

2 A. I am not sure. Perhaps an hour. I don't know exactly.

3 Q. But please, can you be of assistance. You said that you arrived

4 at around 1400 hours. One hour later, according to your estimate, which

5 is to say at around 1500 hours, General Mladic arrived.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So he stayed for an hour, that is to say, up until 1600 hours. I

8 put to you that in all the cases where you testified, you said that you

9 headed for Bratunac by buses in the evening hours. Where have these

10 minimum four hours -- have gone?

11 A. Four hours? Well, I don't know when we set off exactly. I just

12 said approximately that it was dark when we reached Bratunac. Now what

13 time exactly it was, I don't know. I didn't have a watch with me.

14 Q. Thank you. I understand that. But, please, surely you set off

15 towards Bratunac at dusk or in the early evening hours, as was stated in

16 one of your testimonies. Am I right?

17 A. Yes. We set off before it got dark. Maybe an hour before. I

18 don't know exactly. Because once we arrived in Bratunac, it was already

19 in dark.

20 Q. All right. I'm asking you this because I would like to remind

21 you and ask you if you still stand by your statement that, to the best of

22 your estimate -- remained there for about an hour [as interpreted]?

23 A. I don't know exactly. Not one hour. He wasn't there when I

24 arrived. Maybe it was an hour later that he came.

25 Q. But you stand by your statement that he stayed there about

Page 9595

1 60 minutes or one hour.

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Stojanovic, just to be clear on the record,

4 the witness previously said to your question how long did he stay there,

5 his answer was:

6 "I'm not sure. Perhaps an hour. I don't know exactly."

7 So the witness indicated that he was not sure.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That is

9 why I repeated the question because I realised that when I said one hour,

10 the witness understood this to be 1300 hours in the afternoon and that he

11 arrived at around 1400 hours, and I think that that is the reason for

12 this slight confusion in the transcript, but I hope that we have

13 clarified this.

14 Thank you.

15 Q. Sir, in the photograph that is in front of you, can you please

16 put an arrow indicating the place where the soldier - and I would kindly

17 ask the usher to assist the witness - the location where the soldier --

18 or the prisoner was taken from the group that you mentioned. Can you put

19 an arrow of the direction.

20 A. It's here, in this part. This is where he was killed.

21 Q. Can you tell us how far that was from the place where you were?

22 A. I don't know exactly, but not too far, because I was able to see

23 everything that was going on.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, first of all, often, if you want a

25 marking of a spot or a place rather than a direction, you better not use

Page 9596

1 an arrow, which the witness wisely then did not do.

2 The place approximately where the soldier was -- was, was taken

3 out, is marked by the witness with a small circle, just right and up from

4 where he marked the presence of a UN vehicle. And perhaps he could add

5 something like, soldier, or P, for prisoner.

6 That -- if you could mark the place with a P for prisoner.

7 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there it is.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. Can you please tell us, in your memory, can you tell us what kind

12 of weapon did the soldier use to shoot this prisoner?

13 A. I am not sure. I think it was a pistol. I know that he was

14 beaten with a rifle-butt. And then one of the soldiers put -- took out a

15 handgun and shot him dead.

16 Q. Can you tell me if you had an impression that this prisoner

17 exhibited some uncontrolled behaviour?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Did he leave an impression of being psychologically distressed?

20 A. I don't know. All I know is that he stood up, said something,

21 and then he was singled out and beaten up.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,

23 can we please enter the photograph with the markings into evidence

24 because I'm going to move onto other exhibits.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But before we do so, I'd like to add one

Page 9597

1 question.

2 Witness, looking at the arrow you marked on this photograph, and

3 looking at the place where you said Ratko Mladic was, do I understand you

4 well that you were not directly facing him but that you had to look to

5 your left to see him?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

8 Madam Registrar, the number to be assigned to the photograph

9 marked by the witness would be?

10 THE REGISTRAR: Would be D269, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ORIE: D269 is admitted into evidence.

12 Please proceed.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Before we remove it from the screen, Judge Fluegge

15 has a follow-up question as well.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Witness, during the examination-in-chief you were

17 asked about the behaviour of General Mladic when this prisoner was

18 killed. And you said:

19 "Mladic was present but didn't react at all. We were told, they

20 told us, that if any one of us should behave this way, we would be

21 killed."

22 You said, "We were told, they told us," who are "they"? Who told

23 you?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serb soldiers. In fact, the same

25 soldiers that killed that man.

Page 9598

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for --

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,

5 can we look again at document 1D870. That's the witness's statement

6 given on the 20th of July, 1996.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Not to be shown to the public.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I please have -- yes, it's

9 under the seal because we already used it.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, it is -- the statement is not

11 in evidence at this moment, is it? So, therefore, if you once said it is

12 not to be shown to the public, that does not make it an exhibit under

13 seal. So, therefore, you should repeat it whenever you use it. And even

14 if it were an exhibit under seal, then it's always good to remind us that

15 it is.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Can we please look at page 2, last paragraph in the B/C/S; and I

18 think it's page 3, first paragraph, in the English.

19 Q. Can we please look at it together. A while ago, you said that

20 you were not under the impression that this man had some mental problems,

21 the prisoner. In your statement given on the 20th of July, 1996, you

22 said something different, and you said on that occasion, which is a year

23 after the event:

24 "I personally saw one of the captured civilians, probably

25 psychologically distressed, stood up, straightened up, because we all had

Page 9599

1 to sit down in the stadium, and then four Chetniks approached him, forced

2 him to sit down by kicking him and hitting them with their fists, and

3 then one of them shot him dead with a pistol."

4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan.

5 MS. HASAN: I'm just looking at page 2 of the English which I

6 think is probably where the reference is. And --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is --

8 MS. HASAN: In the English version it says nothing about any

9 psychological disturbance of any sort. It just simply --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it says "probably due to shattered nerves."

11 MS. HASAN: Yeah. "The civilian stood up, probably due to

12 shattered nerves ..."

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

14 MS. HASAN: That says nothing about his state of mind.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Let me -- if you give me one second.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please, Mr. Stojanovic.

18 Well, Mr. Stojanovic, could you please be very clear. Make a

19 clear distinction between having a mental problem, which I understand,

20 but perhaps you'd verify with the witness how he understood that, whether

21 it was someone with some -- with some psychological disorder of any kind

22 and, on the other hand, shattered nerves due to a situation, which might

23 shatter perhaps everyone's nerves.

24 Could you make a clear distinction between the two, rather than

25 to ask for an explanation of what you present, more or less, as a

Page 9600

1 contradiction, which might not be fully fair to the witness.

2 So would you please keep this in mind when further exploring this

3 matter.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. Mr. Witness, since you speak the language of the statement put to

6 you, it says here that you said and signed the following:

7 "One of the prisoners, probably due to psychologically being

8 distraught ..."

9 Now I'm asking you do you stand by this; and, if you do, how do

10 you understand that?

11 A. Well, I'm not sure what actually occurred. He got up, but why he

12 got up, I really don't know. And why they beat him UP and then

13 eventually killed him, I don't know. It's irrelevant. I don't know why

14 they killed him. It's totally unclear to me.

15 I don't know what else to say.

16 Q. On the basis of what did you make a conclusion that he was

17 probably mentally distraught?

18 A. Well, my conclusion was based on the fact that we all were forced

19 to sit down, whereas he got up. And that indicated to me that something

20 was wrong with him because everybody else had to remain sitting and

21 didn't dare get up.

22 Q. Did he shout?

23 A. I don't remember. He was talking. I don't know what about.

24 Q. Was he threatening?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 9601

1 Q. Did he try to hit anyone of these people?

2 A. I don't remember.

3 Q. You're not sure if General Mladic was able to see it all?

4 A. Well, he was there. He should have been able to see what was

5 happening. I think you'd best ask him. He was there.

6 Q. I'm asking you this because --

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,

8 I'd like to suggest that we look at document 1D868 in e-court. Let me

9 note that it's under seal.

10 Q. It's the statement that you gave, Witness, on the 11th of March,

11 1996, to AID, the Agency for Investigation and Documentation, the Tuzla

12 office.

13 I'd like us to look at the first paragraph, where you talk about

14 this event and say that you arrived at the field or the pitch at around

15 1400 hours. At the field in Djugum, the Chetniks first kicked and

16 punched and rifle-butted a youth whom they killed. "I did not know the

17 young man, but he was dark, tall, and about 30 years old".

18 You then say that you were addressed by Ratko Mladic, and then

19 you mention the words that you've already told us here. Does this

20 refresh your recollection that in fact this incident happened before

21 Mladic's arrival at Kasaba?

22 A. No. It didn't happen before. Mladic was already there.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, where do you get it from, from

24 this statement, that Mr. Mladic had not arrived yet?

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. On the basis

Page 9602

1 of the documents that I intend to adduce through the witnesses that we

2 will call, but that's why I wanted to clear up the statement, first of

3 all.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you're referring to this statement to make

5 that assertion, and that -- this statement doesn't make that assertion.

6 Then you can make that assertion without referring to this statement.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I thought that I would

8 clear up this issue with the witness through this document. I thought

9 this would jog his memory.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, if you use a document and ask a

11 witness whether that document refreshes his memory, which, of course, is

12 in relation to his previous answer, then that document should contain a

13 basis for considering what the witness testified and what is in his

14 statement to be different or contradicting. That is the clear suggestion

15 underlying such a question whether it refreshes his memory. You can do

16 that only if the document contains elements which would provide a proper

17 basis for re-visiting his previous answers.

18 Please proceed.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Q. I wanted to put another question to you.

21 Did you have an opportunity to see the location where the

22 soldiers took the dead body of this prisoner?

23 A. No. But I heard them say that it should be taken to Jadar and

24 thrown away.

25 Q. And while you were there, was the body, indeed, taken away?

Page 9603

1 A. Yes, it was.

2 Q. To the best of your recollection, what was the direction to which

3 the column left when General Mladic was present?

4 A. Which column do you mean?

5 Q. The column of vehicles that General Mladic arrived with, as you

6 described it.

7 A. It left for Konjevic Polje.

8 Q. And while you were there, in the late afternoon or early evening,

9 you did not observe this motorcade returning from Konjevic Polje?

10 A. No.

11 Q. In your view, what would have been the time when the motorcade

12 left with General Mladic?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. In your view, how many buses arrived and from which direction?

15 And I'm referring to the buses that later took you to Bratunac.

16 A. I don't know the direction they came from, but there were between

17 five and six buses.

18 Q. Were all the prisoners from the field in Kasaba bussed to

19 Bratunac?

20 A. I'm not sure. There were still people left behind. I don't

21 think so.

22 JUDGE ORIE: This question was asked. This question was already

23 answered that some may have left behind.

24 Please proceed.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9604

1 Q. On your arrival in Bratunac, did you, at any point, receive

2 information that would indicate that there were people ferried to

3 Bratunac after you had been taken there?

4 A. No.

5 Q. In your view, what would have been the time when you were taken

6 on the following day from Bratunac to Zvornik?

7 A. Sometime in the afternoon.

8 Q. As you were taken by bus to the school where you were ultimately

9 put, did you at any time cross into Serbia?

10 A. I don't remember.

11 Q. Do you recall if, at any point, you stopped in Zvornik?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Can you tell the Chamber if there were any soldiers on the buses,

14 securing the journey?

15 A. Yes, there were.

16 Q. Were they soldiers or policemen?

17 A. I don't know exactly.

18 Q. How many buses were there in that motorcade?

19 A. I think four or five.

20 Q. Were all those who were in the school in Bratunac and those who

21 were in the buses in front of the school, were they all taken along on

22 that journey?

23 A. I don't understand. I'm not sure about your question. You're

24 asking me about the school in Bratunac. I don't know anything about

25 that.

Page 9605

1 Q. Did you, at any point in time, have an idea as to where you were

2 within the town of Bratunac that night when you were brought over until

3 the afternoon hours of the following day?

4 A. Well, I think it was a school. We were in the street, parked

5 next to the school.

6 Q. That morning, did you see any people being taken out of that

7 school and put on buses?

8 A. No. The night that we spent in Bratunac, there were several

9 people taken off the buses, and they never returned. I don't know how

10 many exactly. Shots were heard.

11 Q. What I'm interested in is whether, on that day before your

12 departure for Zvornik, you were able to see other buses around the school

13 and people being boarded onto these buses.

14 A. No.

15 Q. Since it was day-time, are you able to remember where the bus you

16 were on was parked in reference to the entrance to the school?

17 A. We were out in the street. I don't know exactly. I was able to

18 observe that it was a school, but I had never been in Bratunac before.

19 Q. Were you told the destination you were taken to -- you were being

20 taken to?

21 A. We were told that we were going to be exchanged.

22 Q. Do you remember if these four or five buses, on one of which you

23 were, they were escorted by a UN vehicle at all?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Were there any other vehicles escorting the convoy, or was it

Page 9606

1 just soldiers on the buses who escorted the whole column?

2 JUDGE ORIE: We have not received any answer at this moment.

3 Could you -- if you answered the question, could you do it again,

4 whether there were other vehicles escorting the convoy, or whether it was

5 just soldiers on the buses?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. There weren't any. Or at

7 least I didn't observe them. There were just soldiers who were on the

8 buses.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Tell us how many soldiers there were in each of the buses? Or,

11 specifically, in your bus.

12 A. I don't know exactly. I think there were two of them, and they

13 were at the front. I'm not sure.

14 Q. Do you know where it was that you were brought over and where you

15 were put up?

16 A. It was the school at Pilica. We were placed in the school gym.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. At which point did you realise that it was the school at Pilica?

20 A. It was something that I came to learn later. I didn't know at

21 the time.

22 Q. When you were taken to the school gym, you were the first ones to

23 be placed there; right?

24 A. Yes. I'm not completely sure, but ... there were others, people

25 standing or sitting on the steps, those who were being taken upstairs.

Page 9607

1 Q. When you were led into the sports gym, however, were you the

2 first ones to be put there?

3 A. I'm not sure. I only know that the school gym was overcrowded

4 and that there were people who died in there. For the lack of air,

5 simply.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to understand, Witness.

7 When you were taken to the school gym, whether you were the first

8 ones to be placed there, that was the question, and you said you're not

9 completely sure. But when you say that -- that you know that the school

10 gym was overcrowded, was it already crowded - I'm not saying

11 overcrowded - crowded when you arrived?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] Was it an empty school --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Was it an empty school when you arrived?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think it was entirely

17 empty. When I arrived, I don't remember how many people there were.

18 However, it became full very quickly and eventually became overcrowded.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that answer.

20 Mr. Stojanovic, you earlier asked about the number of soldiers -

21 and that's during cross-examination - were on the bus from Bratunac. I

22 really -- since it's clearly in the witness's testimony that there were

23 two, and since you did not give it any follow-up, I do not understand why

24 you repeat questions in cross-examination on matters which are clear from

25 the 92 ter material already and then not challenge or -- well, do

Page 9608

1 something with it. It's just a repetition. You get the same answers,

2 which I really totally am unable to understand what purpose that serves.

3 You may proceed.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps we can

5 clarify these issues and it will become more transparent. I'm asking

6 about the number of people in the school in Pilica.

7 And with your leave, Your Honours, I would kindly ask, in view of

8 the answer given by the witness to you right now, we look at a document

9 under seal, which is the witness given by -- the statement given by this

10 witness to the Prosecution marked 1D869, dated 23rd of May, 1996.

11 And can we please look at page 3 in the B/C/S, the last

12 paragraph; and that would be page 3 in the English as well. And if I may

13 ask the next page in the English because this paragraph continues there,

14 and we need page 4.

15 Q. Sir, you say here:

16 "There were no other people in the gym at that stage but there

17 were others on the stairs and the rest of the buildings."

18 Today you gave a different description of the event, and you said

19 that there were some people when you arrived there.

20 Now, I'm asking you the following: This part of your statement

21 that you gave to the Prosecution a year after the event, does it refresh

22 your memory with regard to this specific issue of whether somebody was in

23 the gym or not?

24 A. As I said a minute ago in answer to your question, I said that I

25 wasn't sure that they -- there may have or may have not been people

Page 9609

1 there, because I'm not sure.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Then can I kindly ask you, if you're no longer sure about this,

5 to take a look at your evidence in the Krstic case.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And I need 1D866. That's

7 page 17 in e-court, which corresponds to transcript page 3031.

8 Q. Let's look at lines 2 onwards, where you say that when you

9 arrived in the gym, it was overcrowded.

10 What would actually be a true version of this, sir?

11 A. Well, I said that I wasn't quite sure because I was fearful. And

12 whether it was full or not ...

13 Q. So if -- am I right if I were to say that not even today your

14 memory about these issues is not completely reliable?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I don't think that we should ask the witness

16 whether he's reliable or not. Could we --

17 Witness, one point, from what we saw as statements and what we

18 heard in your testimony today, irrespective of whether there was no one,

19 or only a few when you arrived, or whether there were already more, that

20 at the end of the story, the gym was overcrowded, is that something you

21 are certain about?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It was not full, but later

23 on, after my arrival, it became overcrowded and nobody can convince me

24 differently. I know what I experienced, and I know what I saw, and I

25 stand by it.

Page 9610

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Q. Were you able, at any point, to notice that following your

4 arrival to the school in Pilica, there were any other transportation of

5 prisoners?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know if there were any prisoners elsewhere on the school

8 premises?

9 A. I think so, because I saw some people in the staircase.

10 Q. Can you tell the Court how many people you saw on the stairwell

11 in the school.

12 A. Well, I cannot give you an exact number.

13 Q. To the best of your recollection, how big was the gym where you

14 were put up?

15 A. Well, I don't know. It's just an ordinary gym for physical

16 education. I don't know its size.

17 Q. If I were to tell you that it's 18 metres by 10 metres, would

18 that correspond to your memory, as something being similar to a

19 basketball court?

20 A. I'm not sure.

21 Q. Very well. Thank you. The next thing that I would like to ask

22 you, can you recall --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, again, and I'm trying to keep

24 matters as efficient as possible, is 18 by 10 metres the approximate size

25 of an ordinary gym, in your understanding?

Page 9611

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I know

2 exactly the size of gyms. And I know that the gyms were built according

3 to similar and identical standards in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

4 JUDGE ORIE: So the simple answer is: Yes, that's the ordinary

5 size.

6 Now is there anything you would like to further explore with

7 giving the size of this specific gym to this witness, is there any

8 problem? Because the witness says it was an ordinary gym. You give him

9 measurements of what appears to be an ordinary gym and then you leave it

10 as it is. Is there any relevance in knowing whether it was 17 by 11 or

11 19 by 9? The Chamber wonders what you want to bring to our attention in

12 relation to those measurements, that exact size, where the size you are

13 referring to is exactly what the witness has told us or ordinary gym.

14 So if there's anything you want to bring to our attention, please

15 do so. But you have not done until now.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. It

17 might be significant, and it will be, in relation to the number of people

18 who were in the school, and, with your leave, it bears reference to what

19 I was asking the witness right now, and I would like to put this to the

20 witness.

21 Can we then have the witness's statement given on the

22 11th of March, 1996. It's 1D868, and I'd like to remind all the parties

23 that it's under seal. As I say, it's under seal.

24 Can we look at paragraph 2 in both versions. I think that we

25 need to scroll down the English version or, rather, to turn the page

Page 9612

1 over.

2 Thank you.

3 Q. Mr. Witness, the same question was put to you on the

4 11th of March, 1996, and you gave a more explicit answer by saying that

5 the school was big and that the gym was about 40 metres long, and "I

6 don't know how wide it was."

7 Today you said that you cannot say anything about the size of

8 that facility.

9 Now, in view of these discrepancies, can you estimate how many

10 people were in the gym at the time when you described it as being

11 overcrowded?

12 A. Well, that means that people were suffocating or the room was

13 stifled. It seems that due to that I can say that it was overcrowded.

14 Now, as for the exact number, I don't know.

15 Q. All the prisoners who had arrived in those four or five buses

16 from Bratunac, were they all put up in the gym?

17 A. I'm not sure. I know that the gym was overcrowded. I know that

18 soldiers stood in the doorway, shooting up into the ceiling, but I'm not

19 sure if all the people were put up in the gym.

20 Q. We can agree, then, that you cannot give us any realistic

21 estimate about the number of people who were put up in the gym.

22 A. Well, I was imprisoned there. My role was not to count the

23 people in the gym.

24 Q. I understand that, but you said how many people were on the pitch

25 in Kasaba and that is the reason why I'm asking you about this smaller

Page 9613

1 space.

2 A. But I don't know how many people were taken away from Kasaba, how

3 many of them remained in Bratunac, et cetera.

4 Q. Very well. Thank you. Can you please tell the Court, to the

5 best of your recollection, when you were taken purportedly to be

6 exchanged but, in fact, you were taken to the Branjevo farm, what time of

7 day was it?

8 A. I'm not sure. I think it was in the afternoon, but I cannot be

9 more precise than that because I was walking through the woods for

10 15 days without food. I occasionally lost consciousness. Therefore, I

11 cannot be precise.

12 Q. Thank you. In your evidence in the Karadzic case, your estimate

13 was that it was possible that the time when you were taken to the

14 Branjevo farm was about 1600 hours and that that is when the shooting

15 started. Would you give the same answer today?

16 A. 1600 hours? I think it was earlier than that. I'm not sure.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Stojanovic, could we have that on the screen

18 to be able to compare?

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. With your

20 leave, can we please have again Defence Exhibit 1D867, page 47 in

21 e-court, which corresponds to page 24158 in the transcript, which is the

22 evidence of this witness given in the Karadzic case. And let us look at

23 line 11 onwards.

24 Q. In response to the questions asked at the time, you say that

25 according to what you recall, the shooting started at around 4.00 in the

Page 9614

1 afternoon.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you still stand by that?

4 A. Yes. It may have been - I'm not quite sure - it may have been a

5 bit earlier but I'm not sure. That would be roughly the time, as I said.

6 Maybe the same time, maybe somewhat earlier, I'm not sure.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, on the transcript of today's

8 proceedings, at page 64, line 24, or starting at line 22, you say:

9 "In your evidence in the Karadzic case, your estimate that it was

10 possible that the time when you were taken to the Branjevo farm was about

11 1600 hours."

12 Line 11 on the transcript that you are referring to us, on the

13 exhibit you are referring us to, refers to the starting of something. I

14 don't know what was starting. Not being taken to Branjevo. This seems

15 to be two different incidents.

16 You say -- it says:

17 "According to you, it started at 4.00 in the afternoon, and how

18 long did it last?"

19 Whatever it is that started. That's not being taken to Branjevo

20 farm.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, I may clarify

22 this by putting a question to the witness.

23 Q. So, Witness --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan is sitting down again, so I take it that

25 you want to wait until the -- Mr. Stojanovic has clarified issues. Or do

Page 9615

1 you want to make any intervention at this moment?

2 MS. HASAN: I was just going to point out that in fact the 4.00

3 time of the starting of the executions from the Karadzic transcript was

4 suggested by Mr. Karadzic to the witness. I'm looking for the reference

5 to where the witness himself gave that evidence. I haven't found it yet.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And Mr. Stojanovic will certainly keep this in

7 mind when he puts the next questions to the witness.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Q. Witness, I will try to put a more specific question to you.

10 To the best of your recollection, when did the execution at

11 Branjevo start?

12 A. On the 16th, in the morning, I don't know at what time, Serbian

13 soldiers arrived and told us that were to be exchanged. Instead, they

14 tied us up and put on the buses and drove us to that meadow where people

15 were already being killed. There were countless dead bodies there. I

16 don't know the exact number, but quite a few.

17 Q. In your view, would it be fair to say that you arrived there and

18 that the people who were on the bus with you were being taken out of the

19 buses at roughly 4.00 p.m., 1600 hours?

20 A. I don't know what the time was.

21 Q. Was that in the morning or in the afternoon of that day?

22 A. I think that it was in the morning.

23 Q. So you'll agree with me that it's different from what you had to

24 say in the Karadzic case. You can read it. You have it in front of you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please, exact quote of what the witness said in the

Page 9616

1 Karadzic case which you would want to put to him.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I'm showing

3 him answers -- or questions and answers from lines 11 to 15.

4 JUDGE ORIE: 11 until 15. What the witness tell us is that it

5 lasted until night-fall and that his hands were tied in his back. That's

6 the only thing the witness testifies there.

7 If you want to put to the witness that Mr. Karadzic said that,

8 according to the witness, it started at 4.00, there's no answer to that

9 question. And that's what happens if you put a composite question to the

10 witness. So if you find it anywhere where Mr. Karadzic may have found

11 it, please put that to the witness and not an unanswered suggestion by

12 Mr. Karadzic and suggest that there is a contradiction.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Q. I'll finish this issue with a question related to time.

16 In your view, how long was it after you boarded the buses in

17 front of the school in Pilica that you arrived at the Branjevo farm?

18 A. Five or ten minutes; not more.

19 Q. Is it true that people were taken out in groups of ten?

20 Approximately ten.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How far away were they taken from the spot where the bus was

23 parked?

24 A. I don't know how many metres, but it wasn't far.

25 Q. You didn't hear any sort of order to fire.

Page 9617

1 A. No, I was only able to see people being taken out and killed.

2 Q. You don't know who these people who were shooting were.

3 A. No.

4 Q. You saw them, that they were already there by the time you

5 arrived on the bus.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In your estimate, how long would it take for them to take out a

8 group of about ten before they came back to fetch another group?

9 A. I don't know, but it didn't take much.

10 Q. Can you give us an idea?

11 A. I'm not sure at all. They would take a group to the field, kill

12 them, and then come back to fetch another group. I don't know how long

13 it would take them.

14 Q. Would it have taken them some ten minutes?

15 A. I don't know. I'm not sure.

16 Q. After you fell to the ground, at some point, one of the soldiers

17 approached you and shot you from the back; right?

18 A. Yes. They first fired bursts of fire. I dropped to the ground

19 and a man landed on my back. He was dead already. I could sense his

20 blood flowing. And then they said that they should be shooting everyone

21 in their head to make sure that they were dead. And then I heard them

22 say that they shouldn't be shooting at people's heads because there was

23 brains splattering everywhere. So they shot me in the back and I felt

24 the hit pass under my left armpit, and then there were people still

25 shouting, some of them were wounded, asking for help.

Page 9618

1 Q. At that point your hands were still tied at the back?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. At that point, you were lying prone on your stomach, in fact;

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. The bullet went -- passed between your body and your left arm

9 without wounding you; right?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,

12 I'd like us to look at a document in e-court. It's 1D871. It's a

13 photograph that we made when preparing for this witness's testimony.

14 Q. Sir, would this be the position that, as you recall, you were

15 lying in with your arms tied at the back?

16 A. Well, I'm not sure if my hands were tied in precisely this way.

17 I can't remember. There were dead bodies all around me.

18 Yes, I was lying face down on my stomach.

19 Q. Would this body position correspond to how you were lying at the

20 time?

21 A. Yes, perhaps it would.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D873 now.

23 Q. Sir, you said that the bullet passed between your arm and your

24 body through the jacket.

25 A. Yes.

Page 9619

1 Q. Can you indicate on this photograph how this was possible at all

2 without the bullet injuring you?

3 A. Well, that's how happened. Perhaps it was with the help of dear

4 Lord. I don't know how it happened.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, this is not the witness's body and

6 this is not the position of his arms, at least that has not been

7 established. So to ask him how this is possible, I would say take the

8 next break, use your arms in such a way and see whether can you make a

9 small hole between your body and the arms when you are tied on the back.

10 I promise you that, of course, dependant on your flexibility, and we are

11 a bit older, both of us, that you might well manage to do it in a way

12 different from what you see in this photograph.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honours. I

15 tried to make it as transparent as possible. That's why I decided to

16 proceed with the help of this photograph. Thank you. We can put the

17 photograph away now.

18 Q. There's one other thing I'd like to ask you, Witness.

19 After you were captured, the soldiers who captured you brought

20 you over to a cafe in Pilica where people gave you food, drink and

21 cigarettes; right?

22 A. It wasn't Pilica. It was beyond Karakaj. I'm not sure what the

23 place was. They were not soldiers. There was a mini-bus and I think

24 that they were military policemen. They dropped by for a drink, and the

25 cafe owner came over to the bus. He brought over cigarettes and a drink,

Page 9620

1 and he asked if we were hungry. We said that we were. He gave us food.

2 He was a good man. I'm sorry that I don't know his name. I've forgotten

3 it.

4 Q. If I were to tell you that his name is Ljubo, would that refresh

5 your memory?

6 A. I don't think so. I'm not sure. The only thing that would jog

7 my memory would -- me going there and finding that cafe. I only remember

8 that the man said that he had been working in Germany for ten years.

9 Q. Thank you. Upon your arrival in Batkovic, you were registered by

10 the Red Cross.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You applied voluntarily for work in order to get better food; is

13 that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. There were many prisoners in Batkovic who applied for work as

16 volunteers with locals or with somebody else, and they would do farm

17 work.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Nobody physically mistreated you personally in Batkovic; is that

20 right?

21 A. That's right. Not me personally. Though, when we were working

22 on the line in Brcko, there was this one man - I don't know if he was a

23 policeman - he beat up a few people. I think his name was Mitar, I'm not

24 sure.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I'm looking at the clock. I also

Page 9621

1 established that during the first session you used approximately half an

2 hour, and we have now a second session which took approximately one hour

3 and a half, which makes it all together two hours. That was the

4 assessment.

5 How much time would you still need?

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A minute, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: A minute. Then use that minute, please.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Did you give any statements about these events at Batkovic?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did anyone from those who were managing the collection centre at

12 Batkovic ask you to give accurate or inaccurate information about the

13 things that you experienced?

14 A. I don't remember. I only remember that as I arrived there, there

15 was the Red Cross, they registered us, and they asked some -- for some

16 information. That was all that happened at Batkovic.

17 Q. Thank you, Witness. I have no more questions for you.

18 A. Thank you, too.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

20 Ms. Hasan, how much time would you need for re-examination?

21 MS. HASAN: Just a few minutes, three or four minutes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Three or four minutes. Then I would suggest that we

23 use -- that we will continue for those three or four minutes so that we

24 can excuse the witness after that, unless there would be any further

25 questions to him.

Page 9627

1 And, just to be sure, viva voce, no protective measures.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Ruez, I take it.

4 THE WITNESS: Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

6 make a solemn declaration. May I invite you to do so.

7 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

8 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 WITNESS: JEAN-RENE RUEZ

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Ruez.

11 Mr. Ruez, you'll first be examined by Mr. McCloskey.

12 Mr. McCloskey, as you may be aware of, is counsel for the Prosecution.

13 Mr. McCloskey.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

15 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

16 Q. Can you tell us your full name.

17 A. My name is Ruez, R-u-e-z.

18 Q. And your first name?

19 A. Jean-Rene.

20 Q. And what is your current position?

21 A. Currently I am a chief superintendent in the French national

22 police.

23 Q. And we all note you are speaking English. Is that your choice?

24 A. Yes, it is my choice, indeed.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I add to that, if at any moment you would

Page 9628

1 feel that you are able to express yourself better in your own language,

2 don't hesitate to use the French language at such point in time.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY:

5 Q. Did you once work for the Office of the Prosecutor here?

6 A. Yes. I joined the OTP in the 7th of April, 1995, and I left the

7 Tribunal 7th of April, 2001.

8 Q. And what was your position?

9 A. I arrived as an investigator and became an investigation team

10 leader in 1997.

11 Q. And what was the case you principally worked on during all your

12 years here?

13 A. Nearly during this entire period I worked only on the Srebrenica

14 case.

15 Q. And were you the investigative team leader in charge of the

16 Srebrenica investigation?

17 A. Yes, I was.

18 Q. Okay. We'll get into that a bit more later. But is it true that

19 you have testified in the trials of Krstic, Blagojevic and Jokic,

20 Popovic, Tolimir, and Karadzic?

21 A. Yes, and Ademovic, and Rule 61 hearing, indeed.

22 Q. Can you tell us a little bit about your education and your work

23 experience prior to becoming the team leader here at the OTP, where you

24 were in the French judicial police.

25 A. Yes. I did my military service at age 18 as an officer. Then I

Page 9629

1 went to law university during four years where I got what is now named a

2 master 1 degree. I passed the contest to enter the police at the rank of

3 superintendent, joined the superintendent school during two years, and

4 then started to work in the judicial police in Paris, in Marseilles, and

5 in Nice, mainly in the field of drugs trafficking but also armed

6 robberies.

7 Q. All right. Well, let's get directly to your work as the

8 Srebrenica team leader.

9 You have in the past described the different -- as you viewed,

10 the different phases or parts of the Srebrenica investigation. Can you

11 just briefly tell us how you divide the Srebrenica investigation up, how

12 you went about doing it in these different parts you've talked about, if

13 you understand what I'm saying?

14 A. Yes, I do. Due mainly to human resources, we had to split the

15 investigation in various phases which happened naturally. The first one

16 was to collect witness statements in order to reconstruct the events

17 according to the multiple stories of these witnesses. Then the second

18 phase, once the territory of Republika Srpska where the events happened

19 was accessible, we could start missions in order to find the locations

20 the witnesses were talking about, and collect evidence in order to

21 confirm or infirm [sic] the stories we were told.

22 There was then a need to find also where the bodies of the

23 executed people were. This task was then complicated and took a long

24 time because of a disturbance of these graves. Then once the events were

25 reconstructed and the bodies found, all this being not in several phases,

Page 9630

1 these phases were mixed, then the focus was more on identifying the

2 perpetrators, so the military units involved and those responsible for

3 the events, including for this, the necessity to conduct searches in

4 military facilities, mainly the Zvornik Brigade and the Bratunac Brigade,

5 and also put a hand on the intercepts, what we now call the intercepts.

6 Following this was also the final phase, if one can say so, of

7 interviewing as many witnesses and suspects among the military and the

8 police.

9 Q. All right. Now, I note that you've taken something with you

10 in -- that you have in front of you. Can you tell us what that is?

11 A. This is the -- the book of all the exhibits that we are going to

12 go through during my testimony.

13 Q. All right. And before I get to that, I think we should --

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could, Mr. President, provide Mr. Ruez with

15 a -- a list of some of the witnesses that he may refer to but we have

16 their RM numbers, because many of them are in private session, and if he

17 does get asked about specific witnesses, it would be helpful for him to

18 have that. We have given that list to the -- to the Defence. It's

19 something that we have traditionally done with Mr. Ruez to protect the

20 witnesses.

21 JUDGE ORIE: No problem with that.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.

23 Q. Now the book --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, although, of course, the Chamber

25 would immediately switch to which witnesses who -- but it might assist us

Page 9631

1 as well to have a copy of the -- not to know that we couldn't find it,

2 but if we have it in front of us it is easier.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, and we did make some extra copies.

4 JUDGE ORIE: That's appreciated.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now, the book, which I note is 65 ter 28756,

6 that, Your Honours, you should have a copy of that book in front of you

7 as well.

8 JUDGE ORIE: The Judges received a copy.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

10 Q. Did you create this -- this book, Mr. Ruez?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. And what did you create it from?

13 A. Mainly from photographs that I took and from maps that I created.

14 Q. And was this done for the purpose of trials?

15 A. It was done for the purpose of trials and adapted depending on

16 the people who were on trial.

17 Q. And have we, the Prosecution, reduced the book from the Tolimir

18 trial about 25 photographs, to try to make this a more targeted

19 testimony?

20 A. Yes. It is a short version, let's say, of the entire -- the

21 entire book.

22 Q. And what did you have in mind for this book? What -- what is it

23 supposed to do for the -- the Judges?

24 A. Yes, absolutely, it is designed to help orientate oneself in the

25 crime-scene area which is a very big area since it is 70 kilometres

Page 9632

1 north/south and 40 kilometres east/west, dotted with concentration spots

2 for prisoners, execution sites, primary mass graves and secondary mass

3 graves. It gives a feeling of the locations of these -- these places and

4 also a view of the terrain in this global environment and mainly also the

5 distances between the various sites.

6 Q. And did any of the information that you have on these photographs

7 and in your book, did that come from the -- some of the actual witnesses

8 that we see on this -- on this particular list as well as the other

9 witnesses in the -- in the investigation?

10 A. Yes, indeed. We tried in these locations to find elements the

11 witnesses were talking about.

12 Q. All right. Well, without further ado, let's get to the book, and

13 as we do, go through it as efficiently as we can to help provide the

14 Court with these -- the visualisations.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we first go to -- it's page 1 in the book but

16 it's page 19 on e-court.

17 Q. And we will, of course, Mr. Ruez, be using the electronic machine

18 that you're very familiar with.

19 All right. This is the first illustration in the book. Tell us

20 briefly why you chose that, what's it there for?

21 A. This is the map of the entire crime scene from north to south,

22 east and west. The -- the blue square is the approximate location of

23 so-called safe area of Srebrenica, and the rest we will go through it

24 step by step.

25 Q. All right. And are you familiar with the direction that the VRS

Page 9633

1 first attacked from in -- in coming towards the enclave of Srebrenica?

2 A. Yes. The VRS entered the enclave from the south, totally at the

3 bottom of this map, the area named Zeleni Jadar.

4 Q. And in the investigation, did you at various times do helicopter

5 flights where you took photos and videos of these particular areas?

6 A. Yes, I did. Mainly in order to -- to show to the Court the

7 distances between the locations.

8 Q. All right.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, I would like now to just show

10 a -- a short video clip that it does not have sound to it. It is not

11 part of the -- the trial video. The trial video is real time, war-time

12 material. This is some of Mr. Ruez's investigative materials. But it --

13 it doesn't have dialogue and Mr. Ruez will -- will maybe speak to us

14 about it. But it's also just for your viewing.

15 And it is 65 ter 22313A. And Ms. Stewart will handle that

16 through Sanction.

17 [Video-clip played]

18 THE WITNESS: So here the helicopter is flying from south to

19 north following, in fact, the road that leads to Srebrenica town. These

20 pictures give a good indication of the terrain in this area that we call

21 the area south, so a lot of hills and valleys. This is then the type of

22 terrain the people walked through even though it is not precisely in that

23 location but the terrain looks similar in this area. Very hilly.

24 Here is a view of Srebrenica town stretched in between two -- two

25 hills.

Page 9634

1 Here we reach the centre town, an area that will be a topic of

2 testimony by Drazen Erdemovic, events in the centre town.

3 The view is continuing towards the north, still Srebrenica town.

4 Going to the direction of Bratunac.

5 Here, in Srebrenica the focus is on the Company B of the UN

6 battalion which was stationed in Srebrenica. This is the facility of

7 this Company B.

8 Q. Excuse me, just to interrupt. We've stopped at 00:01:2:44 as you

9 described Company B and let's -- I think we can continue the film.

10 [Video-clip played]

11 THE WITNESS: So then there is a distance of approximately

12 5 kilometres going to the direction of Potocari, which is halfway between

13 Srebrenica and Bratunac town.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY:

15 Q. All right. Are you --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ruez, a second ago you told us what other

17 witnesses would testify about. We expect such information not from a

18 witness but, rather, from the Prosecution. Could you keep that in mind,

19 that, if at any time during your testimony you want to refer to

20 statements taken, et cetera, that's fine. But what other witnesses will

21 tell us in the future of this case is, of course, something we expect

22 from the Prosecution and not from you.

23 THE WITNESS: No problem.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, thank you.

Page 9635

1 Q. Now, are you familiar, Mr. Ruez, with a section of a video that

2 shows a similar approach but on the ground that was actually shot on

3 the -- at the time that the VRS and General Mladic were approaching

4 Srebrenica from the south?

5 A. Yes, I am.

6 Q. All right.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'd like to show that video segment and there

8 will be some speaking on it, but we'll have the subtitles, as

9 Mr. President said, for the -- for reading as well as it can be read.

10 And that is 65 ter 28780. It's V000-9265, and we're starting at

11 19:25 and going through 21:45.

12 Q. And we may still it a time or two for you to help us identify

13 some of the individuals on the -- the video. And this should be 11 July.

14 [Video-clip played]

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: We should have audio.

16 [Video-clip played]

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go --

19 Q. All right. Can you tell us -- we're now at 2:00:57. Can you

20 tell us who that is?

21 A. Yes, this man is General Zivanovic. That day, the commander of

22 the Drina Corps.

23 Q. And we -- I think we can all agree we saw General Mladic on the

24 clip right before this.

25 A. And we saw the back of General Krstic also.

Page 9636

1 Q. All right.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: And let's continue to play it.

3 [Video-clip played]

4 THE WITNESS: At the left of General Mladic is

5 Colonel Vinko Pandurevic, the chief of the 1st Zvornik Brigade.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: And that's at 20:24:6.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just for the record I think it is the right of

8 Mr. Mladic, not to his left.

9 THE WITNESS: Left of the picture, sorry.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 [Video-clip played]

12 MR. McCLOSKEY:

13 Q. And do you see General -- did you get a shot at General Krstic

14 here at this -- at this 20:27:2?

15 A. Yes, at the right of the picture.

16 Q. Right. Thank you.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Why don't we continue.

18 [Video-clip played]

19 THE WITNESS: This soldier is not UNPROFOR soldier. He is just

20 wearing a blue helmet taken from the UN soldiers.

21 [Video-clip played]

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. We end at 21:45.4. And the Defence

23 will probably agree that Mladic was never able to get that APC unstuck

24 from the tree. But I don't think we need to show the rest of that

25 section.

Page 9637

1 JUDGE ORIE: But I would like to know what makes -- what's the

2 source for Mr. Ruez to tell us that the person wearing the blue helmet is

3 not -- is not a UN --

4 THE WITNESS: The source is here also from General Mladic himself

5 who is saying to this man, Put the thing so you look like a UN soldier,

6 UNPROFOR soldier.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could I then have the -- it scrolled back to the

8 text of the subtitle.

9 No, it's further. And let me see ...

10 It's not what you said, Mr. Ruez. That's not what I read here.

11 THE WITNESS: "Put that on so it can be seen that are you an

12 UNPROFOR member." So he is asking this Bosnian Serb soldier to put the

13 blue helmet so that he can look like an UNPROFOR soldier.

14 JUDGE ORIE: This all suggests that is a Bosnian Serb soldier

15 which that's exactly what I would like you -- to ask you about, how you

16 know that.

17 THE WITNESS: We don't know of a UN soldier who was on that spot.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you interpret the words apparently spoken

19 here, "Put it on so that we can see that you're an UN soldier, UNPROFOR

20 member," that due to any absence of knowledge of the presence of an

21 UNPROFOR soldier, that it's your conclusion that it must have been to --

22 to look as if -- that's your conclusion.

23 THE WITNESS: I agree.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's not what Mr. Mladic says here.

25 THE WITNESS: I agree.