1 Wednesday, 17 April 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused not present]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed that there was a preliminary to be
12 raised by the Prosecution. At the same time, I'm looking at you,
13 Mr. Lukic. I think it is about scheduling. And now, Mr. Mladic
14 yesterday in closed session was removed from the courtroom mainly serving
15 the purpose of not further intervening with witnesses.
16 Now, we expect Mr. Mladic to be back later this morning. Would
17 you say we can deal with this scheduling issue in his absence or?
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we can, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then, Mr. McCloskey.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honour,
25 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
1 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 We will continue to hear the case against Mr. Mladic in the
20 absence of Judge Fluegge. We are still sitting under Rule 15 bis.
21 In order to hear the remainder of the testimony of the witness,
22 we return -- we turn into closed session.
23 [Closed session]
11 Pages 9918-9969 redacted. Closed session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, the matter you intended to raise
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, yes, Mr. President. And I apologise, I
18 found another oversight with respect to the record from yesterday. The
19 video that was used is -- you were correct, 65 ter 28780. I referred
20 to -- I neglected to refer to what part of the video, and it -- for the
21 record is V000-9265 and it's the same part of -- of that video that the
22 Court has seen today.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you -- we saw several video passages.
24 Which one --
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's all from the same part.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. But the portion played, where did
2 you make the mistake so that we know on the record where to make?
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: I did not announce --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, you did not announce.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: At the beginning, yes, exactly, which video,
6 which ERN, and which part. So I just wanted to make that clear. I think
7 Mr. Lukic understands.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So the introduction of the video was not
9 precise enough and you have rectified that.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That's then on the record.
12 I'm looking at the clock. Is the Prosecution ready to call its
13 next witness? And would that be for cross-examination or further
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I believe Mr. Ivetic is
16 ready to cross-examine Erin Gallagher on the maps.
17 MR. IVETIC: That is correct, Your Honours. I am prepared to do
18 the examination of Ms. Gallagher.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How much time would you need, Mr. Ivetic?
20 MR. IVETIC: 50 minutes to an hour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: 50 minutes to an hour. Then, of course, I'm also
22 looking at the clock in terms of: If you say you can do it in one hour,
23 then I would, at this moment, take a break of half an hour. Or we could
24 start now already - that's another possibility - and then to continue and
25 then see what time is still needed after the next break.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I do mention -- I do mention, I believe
3 that Mr. Mladic is at the premises and is supposed to be brought back
4 into the courtroom for this witness, so I don't know that would --
5 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, of course, he would be brought back. The
6 only question for me is we would take a break now, then we would re-start
7 at five minutes to 1.00, and then we would have time, 1 hour and 20
8 minutes, but usually we are sitting only for one hour. Now I can imagine
9 that if you have only one session that it's not that dramatic if
10 Mr. Mladic would spend 20 minutes more in court.
11 I see Mr. Lukic agreeing with that. Rather, perhaps then to have
12 Mr. Mladic to enter the courtroom at this moment and then take another
13 break later.
14 Mr. Ivetic, I then assume that we could conclude -- if we would
15 start at five minutes to 1.00, that you would easily conclude by 2.00 and
16 see whether there's any time remaining time for re-examination.
17 MR. IVETIC: I think so, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we will proceed like that and which does
19 also not in any way interfere with tomorrow's witness.
20 We'll take a break and we will resume at five minutes to 1.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.
22 [The accused entered court]
23 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Ms. Gallagher. I think you left us
2 on the 1st of March, but, still, we needed you to return to be
4 Before I invite Mr. Ivetic to cross-examine you, I'd like to
5 remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given
6 at the very beginning of your testimony. There's no need to have it
7 repeated. More important is that you're aware that it still binds you.
8 Mr. Ivetic, if you are ready, you may start your
10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 WITNESS: ERIN GALLAGHER [Resumed]
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
13 Q. Good day, Ms. Gallagher.
14 A. Good day.
15 Q. I will finish your examination today, but I must caution that in
16 our quest to finish as soon as possible, we both should try to observe a
17 pause between answer and question and vice versa. Is that understood?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Then let us begin.
20 Ms. Gallagher, could you please tell us, during your employment
21 with the Office of the Prosecutor, have you known of any protocols or
22 procedures to have been published or have been in existence as to the
23 generation of maps or marking of maps by the Office of the Prosecutor?
24 A. Protocols regarding maps, none that I'm aware of.
25 Q. Thank you. Now, in relation to P1087, marked for identification,
1 which is the Srebrenica map binder, at transcript page 9420 last month
2 during your direct examination, you testified that you assisted in
3 putting together the map book. Could you please enlighten us with some
4 more details as to what precisely your contribution or assistance to the
5 process was.
6 A. It's a map book that originated in earlier trials such as Popovic
7 and Tolimir, so there's been an evolution of the map book until the
8 Mladic trial. My role has been to meet with Peter McCloskey and review
9 the prior map books, decide which should be included, which maps should
10 be taken out, because they're not relevant to the Mladic trial, and then
11 work with our mapping expert to basically make sure it's assembled
12 correctly and sent out for printing.
13 Q. And would you identify yourself as the person that personally had
14 the most significant part in generating the maps and marking the maps
15 that are contained therein?
16 A. No.
17 Q. And whom would you identify as the person or persons who have the
18 most significant personal role in generating the maps and marking the
19 maps that are included in the Srebrenica court map binder?
20 A. It will vary with the maps. I would say the -- some of the maps
21 will have come from information from the military analyst, Rick Butler.
22 Other maps would have been more specifically generated from
23 Jean-Rene Ruez, and he's still working with our mapping unit.
24 Q. Thank you. If we could now focus on the markings that were added
25 to the maps by the Office of the Prosecutor, could you tell me who,
1 within the Office of the Prosecutor, made the decision as to how the maps
2 would be marked and in what way they would be marked?
3 A. My belief is that the -- some of the -- the earlier
4 computer-generated maps, those came mainly from Jean-Rene, and then some
5 of the maps regarding the -- the locations and the borders of, let's say,
6 the Drina Corps and the brigades came from Rick Butler. That's to the
7 best of my knowledge.
8 Q. Did any member of the trial team such as Mr. McCloskey or
9 Mr. Groome or one of the other attorneys appearing at trial for the
10 Prosecution have a role in reaching a decision as to which maps would be
11 marked and how they would be marked?
12 A. These maps were marked a while ago, so I think that they still
13 originated most likely with Jean-Rene and Rick Butler. I'm not sure if
14 perhaps they worked in coordination with Peter McCloskey at the time. I
15 don't know if he played a role or not.
16 Q. Fair enough. Thank you. Did you keep a log of documents and/or
17 materials that the team reviewed or relied upon in order to prepare each
18 of the maps in the Srebrenica map binder and the markings on them?
19 A. Meaning documents, materials that would have supported the
20 markings on the map?
21 Q. That is correct.
22 A. Certainly not by the time that I came onto this -- this project.
23 I'm not aware of any log of documents that were kept in any binder or any
24 file that were used for the maps. That may have existed but not
25 certainly when I started working on this.
1 Q. In assisting to prepare the Srebrenica map binder book for this
2 trial, did you or anyone notice Office of the Prosecutor have the
3 assistance of any experts outside the employment of the Prosecution?
4 A. There was expert assistance in terms of the actual data of the
5 maps, the topographical and geological data, geographical data, not in
6 terms of the actual markings that were added by the Office of the
8 Q. Thank you. And perhaps I should have asked this earlier but have
9 you, as part of any of your formal education and schooling studied the
10 Balkans and especially Yugoslavia?
11 A. Not specifically. I have -- my undergraduate degree is in
12 Russian studies, but that did not focus very much on the former
14 Q. And did any of your formal education or schooling have any course
15 of study in map drafting or map-making?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Last month at transcript page 9452, you mentioned a
18 Richard Butler as being the source of the markings on a map from a
19 variety of source, and at transcript page 9462 you again said the same
20 Richard Butler was the source of information on the Zepa map and that he
21 could explain it.
22 And the question I have for you first is can you explain for us
23 what kinds of variety of sources you are talking about that Mr. Butler
24 would have used, if you are aware?
25 A. He -- he would have used -- I don't want to quote which specific
1 ones for sure. He indeed used -- but any maps that would have -- would
2 have been acquired by the -- the VRS at that time, any documents that we
3 would have gotten such as combat reports, interim reports, intercepts,
4 all the information that was coming in that -- that time that helped
5 formulate where the different military units were located.
6 Q. And I would now to take a look at P1087, marked for
7 identification, the actual Srebrenica map binder book, and if we can look
8 at page 5 in the hard copy, marked A 02, and in e-court it should also be
9 page 5. And while we wait for everyone to get to that.
10 And just to clarify, first of all, looking at this map, is this
11 one which your team within the Office of the Prosecutor generated or was
12 it prepared by some other department?
13 A. No, this one comes from the Office of the Prosecutor using the
14 underlying data that was brought from Zagreb. And when I say underlying
15 data, I mean the locations, municipalities, the actual map data.
16 Q. We'll explore that. First of all, I'd like to direct your
17 attention to the bottom of this page where the base map that is
18 identified is ERN number 0505-4367. Am I correct that this base map is
19 actually a reference to another Prosecution-generated map from the
20 Popovic court binder in the Popovic case rather than the underlying data
21 that was brought from Zagreb, as you said?
22 A. Right. It's one and the same. I believe this map was originated
23 for the Popovic trial.
24 Q. And now you've mentioned data that was brought from Zagreb. Am I
25 correct that the original source, that is the empty map before the
1 Prosecution added material to it, was actually a 1991 Vector map from a
2 company, a private company operating in Zagreb Croatia?
3 A. That's correct. Though I think the -- the -- in terms of when
4 the OTP actually bought it from or acquired it from the company, it was
5 not 1991. Obviously. I think it was per -- 2002.
6 Q. Fair enough. And would it be a fair assessment that the original
7 1991 Vector map would not have contained any of the markings except for
8 the names of the municipalities and the faint borders of the
10 A. That's correct. You would not have seen -- well, for example, as
11 it says, the confrontation line or the Dayton line. Those were added in
12 by the Office of the Prosecutor.
13 Q. Can you tell me, first of all, in relation to this particular map
14 that we have before us, what documents or other materials you or other
15 Prosecution team members reviewed in order to prepare markings exhibited
16 on the map?
17 A. As you'll see in the legend, the confrontation line is one that
18 was added in, and I know that to come from a -- a British forces map,
19 from a situation map, from April of 1995.
20 Then the Dayton line was added in after December of 1995.
21 Specifically what source they used for -- I think rather that's a public
22 source, but I don't know it specifically. But those are the two -- the
23 two bits that were added later.
24 Q. Now you've already said that you are unaware of a log of
25 documents being kept. Is there any other information, lists, et cetera,
1 in the possession of the Prosecution identifying what the actual sources
2 for the markings -- what sources were consulted before making the
3 markings on this map?
4 A. I don't know of any others.
5 Q. Okay. I would like to then move to the next map in both versions
6 of the binder. So in the hard copy it will be 803 and it will be page 6
7 in e-court.
8 And again, the base map that is listed at the bottom of this
9 page, would you agree again that this was an OTP-generated map from the
10 Popovic court binder?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And you've already testified that there was not -- that you do
13 not know of a log being kept, can you in fact tell us what materials were
14 used or reviewed to generate the markings on this map?
15 A. Earlier when we were speaking about Rick Butler and his sources,
16 it is from his information of reading VRS maps, combat reports, other
17 documents, and he assisted in formulating this map.
18 Q. And you say he assisted in formulating this map. Who had the
19 main role in formulating this map?
20 A. My assumptions is that it was Rick Butler with the mapping unit.
21 Q. Okay. I would next like to turn to the next page in both e-court
22 and the Court binder, which should bring us to the map that is labelled
23 as: "Drina Corps Area of Responsibility" and it has the page bearing of
25 And, Ms. Gallagher, perhaps to short circuit the
1 cross-examination a bit, looking at the ERN for this map's base map at
2 the bottom, would you agree with me that all the references to base map
3 for the OTP-generated maps in part 1 of the binder book are actually just
4 references to identical OTP-generated maps in the Popovic court binder
5 rather than any kind of original source map?
6 A. I think these -- the ones that begin with 0505, those appear to
7 be from Popovic trial, so those are referring to the 65 ter numbers and
8 therefore ERN numbers from the Popovic trial.
9 Q. And A07 would have a 05054371 ERN. Would that also be from the
10 Popovic court binder?
11 A. Now, this is a map that was created prior to Popovic, but I think
12 that -- and same with A06, these were created before the Popovic trial.
13 They were used in the map book for the Popovic trial, which is I think is
14 why they are being referred to with an identifying 65 ter number.
15 Q. Okay. And let's go to A06, which will be in -- on page, I
16 believe, 8 in e-court, and also page 8 in the hard copy of the binder,
17 and it's marked -- well, it's not marked with a title.
18 If we focus on -- I apologise. The next page in e-court.
19 Thank you.
20 Now if we focus on this map that we have before us, and the
21 markings denoting, quote/unquote -- actually, hold on.
22 I apologise. If we can go two more pages forward to A08. That
23 will be, I think, page 9 in the e-court. Yes.
24 And if we look at -- this -- this map that has the markings
25 denoting mass executions, am I correct that your source for this
1 information -- or, rather, that the Prosecution added this information
2 based upon its own sources?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Can you tell me what precise materials were used or reviewed in
5 order to identify the locations to be marked in this fashion as,
6 quote/unquote, mass executions?
7 A. My understanding is that these early markings were derived from
8 Jean-Rene Ruez and that would have come from his own work in the field,
9 from witness statements, interviews, visiting execution sites and mass
11 Q. And now if we can go back to A06, which would have been page, I
12 believe, 7, in e-court.
13 And here we have the same notation of mass executions. Would
14 these come from the same source that you've just described for us?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. In relation to the manner in which Jean-Rene Ruez would have come
17 to this information, can you tell me if anyone kept a record of the
18 documents and materials that he would have reviewed to come to these
20 A. Did -- it would probably be a better question for him, but I have
21 not seen any such list or record of -- of the specific sources used to
22 create these maps.
23 Q. Am I correct, then, that you cannot name for us a single source
24 that was used to mark the maps for the, quote/unquote, mass execution
1 A. That's correct. I don't think there is one single source that he
2 would have used. I would only be making an educated guess as to the
3 different sources he have used, but I don't know specifically.
4 Q. Thank you. Now in relation to both A06, A07, and A08, we have
5 read lines or markings with arrows on them. Can you provide us with the
6 details, the materials that the team members reviewed in order to
7 generate these particular markings?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: If -- I don't believe -- I think we've got
10 another map on the screen which may --
11 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- be a bit ambiguous for, or ...
13 MR. IVETIC: We should be going, I believe, two pages further in
14 e-court to get to A06. Now we have A06 on the screen.
15 Q. The other two - A07, A08 - appear to be blow-ups of sections of
16 this same map; but am I correct, Ms. Gallagher?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Now, with respect to these red lines with arrows on them that are
19 on all three of these maps, could you provide us with the details or the
20 materials that Prosecution team members would have reviewed in order to
21 generate these markings, if you can?
22 A. Now I believe these arrows primarily come from the map that
23 Miodrag Dragutinovic had marked. So that was a VRS original map that we
24 had seen last time.
25 Q. Okay. Now, I'd like to turn to the maps that are labelled as VRS
1 maps in the Srebrenica map binder book.
2 In your direct examination you were asked to give us the meaning
3 of some of the markings on the same. Further to my objection that I
4 raised at that day, I now have to ask you some questions about the
5 testimony you gave.
6 Now in relation now to the VRS maps that you were asked about in
7 direct examination and for which you provide an interpretation, did you
8 keep a log of materials that you reviewed or consulted in reaching the
9 conclusions and interpretation as to meaning that you gave in direct
11 A. I certainly know what I consulted when I was preparing for the
12 testimony and reviewing those maps, so I -- I know in my head and I --
13 I -- I did keep some -- some supporting documents and background
14 information about the maps, how we received them. I read
15 Miodrag Dragutinovic's testimony, the original intake of the maps, that
16 sort of thing.
17 Q. Now you say you know in your head and you did keep some of the
18 supporting documents, did you ever generate a log or list of supporting
19 documents that you consulted prior to reaching your opinions on
20 interpreting the maps and testifying as to those opinions last month in
22 A. I certainly didn't create a separate log or list. I did keep the
23 documents that I reviewed prior. But I don't have a written list that I
24 created separately.
25 Q. Approximately how many documents are we talking about?
1 A. Not a lot. That's why there's not such a -- a list. As I
2 mentioned, I -- I read the -- I read Miodrag Dragutinovic's testimony. I
3 had read some testimony of Rick Butler. I had looked at the search and
4 seizure documents of how we acquired the maps. I looked at what we call
5 the MIFs which are the intake sheets of when we received documents, just
6 to verify who received them, when, and where. That was really primarily
8 Q. In relation to the explanations as to the meanings of markings
9 that you testified about in direct examination on these VRS maps, did you
10 consult with any experts, whether OTP or otherwise, before reaching those
11 conclusions and testifying as to what markings meant?
12 A. No. I think the -- the comments I made about the markings
13 primarily came from Miodrag Dragutinovic's own testimony, since he
14 created the map -- one of the maps, and the others it may have been other
16 It might help maybe if you -- if there's any particular ones you
17 can give me an example of.
18 Q. Well, if we can look at Exhibit P1086 with you. If we could pull
19 that up in e-court.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any specific reference to the
21 examination-in-chief --
22 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- where the witness dealt with it?
24 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give it to us.
1 MR. IVETIC: Yes. That would be transcript page 9441 through
3 Q. And you were specifically asked about the blue lines with arrows.
4 MR. IVETIC: This doesn't appear to be the same map.
5 If we can go to ...
6 Perhaps 1085. This ... my hard copies are not marked, so I
7 apologise. It will be either 1085, or 1088, I would suspect, given the
8 numbering of the prior two maps.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Is this the one you're looking for, Mr. Ivetic?
10 MR. IVETIC: No, this is the one -- this is for Zepa, I believe.
11 The one I'm looking for has the blue arrows that the witness testified
12 was the movement of the Bosnian Muslim column and testified that it
13 was --
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think it's P1086 and I think it was the one you
15 had up there, too. You just needed to probably --
16 MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers].
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- zero in on it. Yeah.
18 MR. IVETIC: I apologise then. P1086. And if we can magnify it
20 And if we can go towards the bottom of the map so the witness can
21 see everything. Okay.
22 Q. Now, at transcript pages 9441 through 9442, I understood you to
23 be saying that the blue lines with arrows were the movement of the
24 Bosnian Muslim column. Is that -- am I accurately remembering?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. And at that time you said that this understanding of yours was
2 reached according to following the testimony of a Mr. Dragutinovic from
3 the Popovic case. Is that also accurate?
4 A. That's correct. I believe he described what the blue arrows
6 Q. Did you interview Mr. Dragutinovic in relation to this map or any
7 of the other maps that you interpreted for us in court the other week?
8 A. No, I did not.
9 Q. Who, if anyone, directed you to the testimony of Mr. Dragutinovic
10 from the Popovic case to determine the meaning of markings on this map?
11 A. Well, I was -- I was here at the time during the Popovic trial,
12 so I was here during his testimony. And I was -- I think it was a
13 combination I already -- already knew, and I believe that probably -- I
14 believe Peter had mentioned that he had also testified about the map.
15 Excuse me, Peter McCloskey.
16 Q. Could you clarify for us what you mean by a combination of you
17 already knew. Already knew what? The meanings of the map or that he had
19 A. No, I knew that he testified. And I don't remember which came --
20 I already knew of him, I knew I was looking for testimony about the map,
21 and I think also Peter had directed me. But I think I -- I believe I
22 already knew before he had mentioned it.
23 Q. Did you or any other members of the Office of the Prosecutor
24 undertake any investigations on your own to check or verify the testimony
25 of Mr. Dragutinovic from the Popovic case as to the maps.
1 A. Well, in respect to certainly the column, I think what he had
2 stated, what is shown on the map, as well as my own knowledge of having
3 read or met with the men that had walked in the column, that it all --
4 they -- they all corroborate each other. There was nothing that I've
5 seen that led me but to believe that this map nor that Mr. Dragutinovic
6 was incorrect.
7 Q. If you could perhaps clarify your answer somewhat. Prior to
8 Mr. Dragutinovic's testimony in the Popovic case, did you know the
9 meaning of markings -- of these markings on this map?
10 A. I would not have -- I -- I believe that I would have been able to
11 look at this map and know, yes, what those -- those markings meant.
12 Q. Then can you please identify for us the source of any materials
13 that you reviewed that would have led you to understand what these
14 markings meant prior to the testimony of Mr. Dragutinovic in the Popovic
16 A. It would have been a combination of having read interviews, of
17 having read testimonies, having met or interviewed myself, people having
18 seen other maps generated. I think it's hard to say what -- any specific
19 source. I think it would have come from a number of different places, of
20 speaking with my colleagues who had also been investigators on the case
21 or military analysts prior to me. So probably quite a variety of
23 Q. Are you able to identify with any specificity any of these
24 variety of sources?
25 A. It would have been the interview statements and testimony of some
1 of the survivors who spoke about having left Susnjari. We have a number
2 of interviews of what we have -- we have called wood walkers, those that
3 had also left and walked in the column through the woods. We have some
4 of the video of the men gathering in Susnjari, as well as arriving to
5 Nezuk. I would have noted Jean-Rene Ruez's maps as well that showed the
6 direction of the columns. We have photographs of different areas in the
7 woods where there's clothing found. We have another videotape, the
8 Petrovic video, where you can see some members of the column walking over
9 the hills over Sandici-Kravica area. We have combat reports of the MUP
10 that are searching the woods and ambushing the column above in the
11 Kamenica, Kravica, Sandici, Cerska area.
12 So I think all of these have given an indication of where the
13 column was travelling.
14 Q. I don't suppose you or anyone else in the Office of the
15 Prosecutor kept a log of all these materials that could be provided to
16 the Defence?
17 A. No. There -- they are all items, all interviews, all videos that
18 have been disclosed to the Defence over the years, over the course of
19 this case. They get used for many different reasons, not just to
20 document the -- the path of the column or what was used on a map.
21 Q. Okay. I'd like to now look at P1804 in evidence, another map
22 that you spent some time about. And the transcript reference for this
23 one is at transcript page 9430.
24 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise. It seems to be an incorrect exhibit
1 MR. IVETIC: It should be 1805. I apologise. That's the one we
2 just had up previously that we -- that I said related to Zepa.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Perhaps 1085.
4 MR. IVETIC: 1085, I think. There we go.
5 Q. Now, I believe at transcript page 9430 during your direct
6 examination, you identified the bases of your understanding or
7 interpretation of the marking of a cross on this map to be a video of
8 General Mladic; am I correct?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. Did you or anyone else in the Office of the Prosecution undertake
11 any further investigations to verify the comments made by Mr. Mladic on
12 the video in relation to this map -- in relation to a map to determine if
13 it was this map?
14 A. No. We -- we have these -- as you've seen two maps that have the
15 crosses on them. And I'm sure we don't have all the maps that were ever
16 marked by General Mladic or General Krstic. But it wasn't for the source
17 of, did he mark, in particular, this map, just that he explained that he
18 marked a cross on a map.
19 Q. Thank you, Ms. Gallagher.
20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, those are all the questions that I had
21 for the cross-examination of the witness as to the maps.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
23 Any need to re-examine the witness on the maps, Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that we have heard a part of the
1 evidence of this witness. The witness still to be expected to appear at
2 a later moment to testify about other matters.
3 Which means that you are under the same instruction as you were
4 before; that is, not to communicate in any way about your testimony,
5 either given already or still to be given although on a different
7 Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. Ms. Stewart reminds me that
9 we have a MFI P1087, MFI only, for the map book, and so we would like to
10 offer it into evidence.
11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would restate my objection given the
12 testimony of this witness that she cannot give us the information for the
13 markings and is not the person most qualified to testify about the map
14 book and how it was generated, that it is not something that has been
15 properly laid the foundation for through this witness.
16 JUDGE ORIE: What is the purpose of all these markings? Is that
17 to visualise the Prosecution's position on many of these matters is, or
18 is it that you say: On the basis of what markings that were made, that
19 it is evidence of the truth of -- that there was a mass execution or
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's multi-faceted. As we begin, we can see that
22 it's just a general background to help familiarise the Court with things
23 that the Drina Corps, the brigade units, things like that. And then we
24 go into Mr. Ruez's maps as described by the -- the witness. Let me just
1 We start off with general Bosnia maps, then we break it down to
2 the corps, then the particular Drina Corps, and then there is just a
3 general map to help visualize the entire area. And then we get to the
4 map, it's page 9 in e-court, the -- it's been spoken to at some length
5 which Mr. Ruez has spoken about it at some length and showed us several
6 different ones. It's not meant to be evidence of mass graves -- of
7 execution or mass graves but just to be an illustration of what is
8 charged in the indictment and what is the position of the Prosecution as
9 to the location. It's certainly, of course, not evidence in and of
11 And it's -- to help illustrate in a simple manner what we see
12 from, for example, the map that was drawn up in the Zvornik Brigade by
13 Mr. Dragutinovic, the path of the column, in a very simple way so you
14 don't get lost in the detail. And then as we go on in the map book,
15 we're really getting to the parts of actual real life VRS maps that
16 sometimes we highlight forward command post for your knowledge; for
17 example, on page 12 in e-court. Or highlight roads that were present.
18 And then we simply, as we go on, we're just copying some of the key maps
19 from the VRS and blowing them up in different places like the map of
20 The Hague, just for helpful reference. And that's the way we pretty much
21 end it.
22 And I'm not aware of anything on this map book that's in dispute.
23 If there is, we would be happy to know that so that we can help the
24 Defence and the Court.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We have been waiting during cross-examination to
1 hear of any dispute or any challenge to the accuracy of any of the
2 markings. No questions have been put to the witness in that respect.
3 Mr. Ivetic, another way of dealing with the matter would be that
4 you sit together with Mr. Groome and that you make a distinction between
5 the different kind of maps. And if you say, We accept this map not for
6 the truth of the markings but for -- we accept that this visualises what
7 the Prosecution intends to -- to prove, or -- then you would take a more
8 map by map approach. If you say, No, that's not what I want to discuss
9 with Mr. Groome, then, of course, the Chamber will decide on admission
10 whether or not to admit.
11 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, leaving Mr. Groome out of the
12 picture, Mr. McCloskey and I did, I believe, last time Ms. Gallagher was
13 here, go through and I limited my objections to certain parts of the map
14 binder book, and I believe it was just the OTP-generated maps that were
15 in -- in part A that were the main thrust of my objection. And I would
16 add to that: If we are talking about items that are illustrative of a
17 party's position, then those are demonstrative exhibits that are used in
18 openings or in final submissions to the Court. They are not evidence in
19 the case, and so if those are removed -- I mean, if a witness has
20 personal knowledge about a particular map and it's used with a witness,
21 that's one thing. But to have documents coming to evidence simply
22 because they illustrate the position of the party and what they want to
23 prove, I don't believe that that meets the criteria under Rule 89 for
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. You would have no objection that this would
1 be presented to the Chamber as an illustration of -- of -- of what the
2 Prosecution position in relation to the A series of --
3 MR. IVETIC: At the appropriate time, Your Honour, which would be
4 at closing arguments, yes, but not as evidence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you would say that we should be deprived
6 from such illustration. I mean, we have -- we have in Mr. Ruez's book we
7 have found numerous similar situations where there -- I don't remember
8 that there was major objections to that.
9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour --
10 JUDGE ORIE: You'd say, Wait until final argument and then you
11 Judges, you can have a look at it, and meanwhile you should forget about
12 it. If it would have been presented in the opening statement it would
13 have been no problem.
14 I leave it -- I leave it to you whether you want to further
15 discuss a limited use and whether you call it evidence or whether you
16 present it jointly to the Chamber, but if you say, No, I -- it's the
17 position of the Defence that the Chamber should be deprived of this kind
18 of material halfway, then we'll rule on the matter.
19 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, it's the position of the Defence that
20 the Chamber should not have party submissions until the appropriate time,
21 and I stand by that. It's a very important concept that I was taught in
22 my home jurisdiction and that we feel very strongly about. There is a
23 time in a trial for evidence and there is a time in a trial for party
24 submissions, and I believe that I'm well within my rights to say that
25 party submissions by the Prosecution should not be presented at this
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I just asked you whether you want to
3 meet and see whether you can resolve it with Mr. McCloskey. And I
4 indicated that if you think that it's useless, then the Chamber will
5 decide on the matter. No one contested your right under your own
6 jurisdiction, and let's just assume that you have rights under this
7 jurisdiction as well.
8 Do you want further to consider it or would you say, It's -- this
9 is our final position, then we will decide on the matter.
10 [Defence counsel confer]
11 MR. IVETIC: That is our position, Your Honours. We would --
12 JUDGE ORIE: That is your position. That's clear. Then the
13 Chamber will decide on the matter.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: If there's nothing else, I don't think that we could
16 proceed with the next witness.
17 But, first, Ms. Gallagher, I instructed you - before we started
18 this other discussion - I instruct you not to speak with anyone. I don't
19 know when you are scheduled to re-appear not very late, I hope.
20 Mr. McCloskey, any clue as to when you would like to re-call
21 Ms. Gallagher for the other subjects?
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: She is currently scheduled to talk about the --
23 the -- the trial video after the next witness, I believe. And I will
24 speak to the Defence. That's been on schedule for some time, and I don't
25 see a problem with it, but we'll talk with the Defence and make sure
1 they're ready to go.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Then I'd like to thank you already, Ms. Gallagher, for having
4 come twice and expecting you to come for another time. You are -- you
5 may follow the usher.
6 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE ORIE: We are about to adjourn so then have you an
9 opportunity to speak with Mr. Mladic, unless there's any urgent matter
10 you would like to raise at this moment, Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
12 General Mladic wants to address the Chambers on one issue.
13 JUDGE ORIE: One issue. And what is that issue? Could you
14 introduce it so we can know whether we should allow it or not.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 MR. LUKIC: I think that --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Because first of all, we expect, of course, you,
18 Mr. Lukic, to address any issue. But if there's then any specific matter
19 which would justify for us to let Mr. Mladic address us -- by the way,
20 Mr. Mladic should be seated first. That's the first thing I --
21 MR. LUKIC: The issue is a personal nature so I cannot speak
22 instead of Mr. Mladic.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Of a personal nature. Is it -- should we then go
24 into private session? I mean, if it's such that cannot speak about it,
25 then I don't think the public should hear about it, would it?
1 MR. LUKIC: No, I just cannot speak in his name.
2 JUDGE ORIE: But you're representing him, Mr. Lukic, so you have
3 to introduce the matter. We will not just, in the blind, allow
4 Mr. Mladic to address the Court. You should introduce the matter and
5 what it is about and then we will decide whether or not Mr. Mladic can
6 address the Chamber himself.
7 MR. LUKIC: Mr. Mladic already wrote a letter to the UNDU and --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, could you please remain seated. It
9 looks, Mr. Lukic, as though Mr. Mladic wants to briefly consult with you.
10 If there's any letter to be brought to our attention, of course,
11 it can be -- there are ways to bring it to the attention of the Chamber
12 so that we can read it and consider whatever is in there.
13 MR. LUKIC: He just wants to make this Chamber familiar what he
14 wrote to the UNDU.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you provide us with a copy, then we'll --
16 it will be translated. We'll read it and we'll certain seriously look at
17 the matter raised in that letter.
18 MR. LUKIC: We don't have a copy. It's with the UNDU.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then we'll ask the UNDU.
20 And Madam Registrar, would there be any way, since it seems to be
21 the clear wish of Mr. Mladic that the Chamber becomes aware of it, that
22 copies can be provided?
23 I hope, Mr. Lukic, that you have considered whether it is a
24 matter which is in -- within the jurisdiction of this Chamber, within the
25 competence of this Chamber to deal with, and therefore perhaps the most
1 practical way of dealing with it would be that Mr. Mladic gives his
2 consent that the UNDU gives a copy to you so that can you first consider
3 whether it's appropriate to bring it to the attention of the Chamber, and
4 if so, then that we receive copies. That seems to be the most
5 appropriate way of proceeding.
6 MR. LUKIC: I cannot either agree or disagree since I don't know
7 what's in that letter.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then therefore the first step is to
9 make yourself acquainted with that letter by -- and, Madam Registrar, I
10 saw Mr. Mladic nodding yes several times which I do understand as a
11 consent that the copy be given to his counsel.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I pass your instructions to the
14 JUDGE ORIE: No loud speaking, Mr. Mladic.
15 Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic, I can hear the voice of Mr. Mladic from
16 here and that shouldn't happen.
17 Okay. We adjourn. We have suggested a way.
18 Mr. Mladic, you should not speak aloud. I told you that a
19 hundred times. I say it again. You have shown several times that you're
20 perfectly able to whisper in communicating with counsel.
21 Mr. Lukic, we have understood the body language of Mr. Mladic as
22 a consent to give you a copy. He wants to raise the matter in court, so
23 therefore you would be acquainted with it anyhow. We'll proceed that way
24 and we'll hear from you after you've looked at the letter.
25 We adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow, Thursday, the
1 18th of April, 2013, in this same courtroom, I, at 9.30 in the morning.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.58 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of
4 April, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.