Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10799

 1                           Wednesday, 8 May 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

11             There being no preliminaries, may the witness please be called

12     in.

13             And while the witness is coming in, we just deal with one matter.

14     But before we do that, just to announce that the Chamber today is sitting

15     pursuant to Rule 15 bis.  Due to urgent Tribunal business, Judge Orie is

16     not able to be with us today.

17             Okay.  Now deal with this one matter that we have to deal with.

18             On the 3rd of May, 2013, the Prosecution filed a motion seeking

19     to amend the status of RM297 from Rule 92 bis to Rule 92 ter and the

20     status of Witness RM324 [Realtime transcript read in error "RM3"] from

21     Rule 92 ter to Rule 92 bis.  In its motion the Prosecution submits that

22     it has discussed the status change with the Defence and that the Defence

23     does not object.  The Defence will, the Prosecution submits, withdraw any

24     previous objections to that admission of the Rule 92 ter statements for

25     both witnesses.

Page 10800

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             Mr. Lukic, does this reflect accurately the position of the

 3     Defence?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have a few seconds.  I have to check the

 5     numbers.  I don't know the names by heart.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You can tell us later.  Thank you so much.  Okay,

 7     we wait for you.

 8             Good morning, Mr. Franken.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Again, I must apologise for the fact that you

11     walked in while we were attending to some other business which doesn't

12     concern you.

13             Just to remind you, Mr. Franken, that you still bound by the

14     declaration that you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the

15     truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the truth.

16                           WITNESS:  ROBERT FRANKEN [Resumed]

17             THE WITNESS:  I am aware of that, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Franken.

19             Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready?

20             MR. LUKIC:  Before my colleague starts, only in transcript I

21     don't have the other number.  It just says "3."

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The one is 324.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you are ready, Mr. Stojanovic.

25             All right.  Mr. Stojanovic, you were dealing with P1147 when we

Page 10801

 1     adjourned yesterday.  Do you want it on the screen?

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I would

 3     appreciate that.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May we have that on the screen, please.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.  If you recall, yesterday we

 7     left off during the viewing of clips from the video recording of what we

 8     call the first meeting held in Fontana on the 11th of July, 1995.  Since

 9     we have one more clip to see, I would kindly ask for it to be played, and

10     after that, I have a few questions for you relating to the basic subject

11     of our discussion.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So can we please play a clip

13     from P1147, starting at 59:10, an ends at 00: --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  1:03:25.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             "I have a question.

17             "Yes.

18             "What can I say to General Nicolai after we have met here

19     tonight?

20             "You don't have too much good of the conversation with

21     General Nicolai.  He cannot help you, either you nor the Muslim

22     population.  But if you do insist, anyway, you tell him ... UNPROFOR

23     troops, no matter of the air strikes, no matter what, your soldiers

24     shooting at my soldiers are not the goal of mine.  Every one of you and

25     your soldiers have only one life.  And I do not believe that you would

Page 10802

 1     like to leave it here.  That's why I ask for absolute co-operation.  The

 2     goal of my action is also not the Muslim civilian population.  I want to

 3     help you, even though you do not deserve it.  Not as a human nor as an

 4     officer, but I will do this because of those children of UNPROFOR.

 5     Because I wouldn't like their mothers to welcome them in coffins.  I also

 6     want to help that Muslim civilian population which is also not to be

 7     blamed for what happened.  That's why I would like to ask you the next

 8     thing.  Are you able and when would -- when would you be able to bring

 9     here representatives of civilian population?  I would have an arrangement

10     with them ... from here, you can go out, all of you, or stay, all of you,

11     or die, all of you.  And I wouldn't like you to die.  If Muslim army in

12     Srebrenica wants to talk, you may bring some of their representatives.

13     If it's possible that that ...  by your estimation that one that is the

14     main authority there, and I know that Naser Oric is not there.  At that

15     meeting, I'm expecting we can agree that all this stops, and that problem

16     of civilian population, Muslim army and your soldiers is resolved in a

17     peaceful way.  You have my guarantees for organising such a meeting and

18     for the people you will bring here.  Are you able to do it tonight?"

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Franken, this is, I would say, the address of General Mladic

21     at this first meeting which summarises everything that had been discussed

22     beforehand.

23             My question is:  Did you have an opportunity to see this

24     video-clip or video recording of this first meeting in the past?

25        A.   Not to this extent.  I saw one clip where the toast was, but

Page 10803

 1     further on, it's new to me.

 2        Q.   Based on what you saw yesterday and today, did you ever notice or

 3     hear that General Mladic issued any threats with regard to the shelling

 4     of the UNPROFOR compound in Potocari?

 5        A.   First, I understand that this is just a part of that meeting,

 6     what is recorded.  So --

 7             Secondly, literally, I didn't hear Mladic say anything about, If

 8     you not, then we will shell, in this footage.

 9        Q.   Did you hear, based on these video-clips shown to you - and I

10     understand the restrictions that you are facing - did General Mladic, at

11     any point, indicate to Colonel Karremans that he might target and shoot

12     on the Muslim civilian population?

13        A.   Not literally, but there were some threats in this -- in this

14     footage.  I remember Mladic saying in the last footage, in the last clip,

15     that there were three possibilities:  Stay, go away, or die.

16             He said in another clip that the POWs, if not, then would be no

17     guests anymore.  So there were some threats but not given better content.

18        Q.   Did you hear any threat at all aimed at the civilian population?

19     Or maybe you did answer my question, but I didn't receive it.

20        A.   I think I did answer, because I believe in the last clip Mladic

21     says that there are three possibilities.  I repeat what I said before:

22     One was you can stay, you can go, or you can die.  And in the text before

23     that, it's obvious that he meant with "they" or "you" the population and

24     DutchBat.

25        Q.   And, finally, during these video-clips did you hear from

Page 10804

 1     General Mladic any threats aimed at members of the Dutch battalion that

 2     were in this hotel on that particular evening and who had arrived from

 3     their observation posts?

 4        A.   Yes.  He said somewhere in -- in -- in one of the clips before,

 5     he said that the POWs, if - and I don't exactly remember the words - but

 6     if we didn't co-operate or if we didn't stop opposing the VRS, the POWs

 7     wouldn't be treated anymore as a guest or words of that content.

 8        Q.   In the last clip, General Mladic says - and I'm going to quote

 9     him:

10             "UNPROFOR forces, despite the air strikes by NATO, and the

11     activities aimed at my forces by your forces, are still not the target of

12     my activities in the military sense of the word."

13             So if you are told something of that nature by the head of the

14     army that you are talking to, would you take that as a clear indication

15     that UNPROFOR forces were not the target of his operations?

16        A.   It's quite clear that he said that.  That doesn't take away the

17     fact that on your previous question if I heard any threats in -- in

18     the -- in the speaking, in the speech of General Mladic, well, I heard

19     threats, and whether or not the objective of his actions were the

20     DutchBat III is, as far as I'm concerned, concerning the threats he said,

21     he told about, is not relevant.

22        Q.   Can we agree that after the 11th of July, the evening of the

23     11th of July, there was never any shelling of the Potocari compound?

24     After the 11th of July.

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 10805

 1        Q.   The fact is that what General Mladic said materialised in the way

 2     that he described on the evening of the 11th.

 3        A.   Yes.  What -- what's your question?  What?  Do you want me to

 4     confirm that?

 5        Q.   Yes.  Just to confirm that.

 6        A.   Okay.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Would you be so kind to tell me this.  But, first of

 8     all, let us look at document D280.  That's your statement that we used

 9     yesterday as well, dated the 22nd July 1995, which you gave at the Pleso

10     base.  And if we can look at page 4 in the B/C/S and that would be

11     paragraph 5, and page 6 in the English version, the penultimate

12     paragraph.  This refers to the evacuation of the population.  So in the

13     English, it's page 6, the penultimate paragraph.  Thank you.

14             And it reads, these are your words:

15             "It was agreed with Mladic that UNPROFOR would supervise it.  Our

16     role was to provide as much presence as possible and to escort them.  The

17     men were separated from the women.  The Muslims agreed to let the men be

18     investigated for war crimes, under the supervision of the UNHCR and the

19     Red Cross may be investigated.  Note:  Franken says he is in the

20     possession of the English and Bosnian text of the agreement with Mladic.

21     He himself acted on the basis of an oral translation by his interpreter."

22             Let me ask you this with regard to this passage.  It says that

23     the Muslims had agreed that the men suspected of war crimes may be

24     interrogated under the supervision of the UNHCR and the Red Cross.

25             Can you please explain to us what was the source of this

Page 10806

 1     statement of yours?

 2        A.   At first, I think UNHCR is incorrect and should have been UN.

 3     And I do not remember the source.

 4             This statement is from 1995, but I don't recollect the source.  I

 5     know that -- sorry.  I don't remember what the source was, but there must

 6     have been a source because I didn't think it up myself.  I can't say what

 7     source.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would the source not be the agreement itself?

 9             THE WITNESS:  It could have been, Your Honour, but I don't really

10     remember.  I can't indicate a source, whether it's agreement verbal

11     message, guide-line of Colonel Karremans or whatever.  I do not really

12     remember.  I'm sorry.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put a follow-up question.

15             It is written here "the Muslims agreed."

16             Who are "the Muslims"?  Who are you referring?

17             THE WITNESS:  I think that refers to the committee - we formed

18     representatives of the Muslims - and that's what I'm referring to with

19     "the Muslims."

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The committee is the people who participated in

21     the Hotel Fontana meeting; is that correctly understood?

22             THE WITNESS:  That's correctly understood, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I might just clear one thing with you,

25     Mr. Franken.  Is this statement as it stands, "are these your words."

Page 10807

 1     When Mr. Stojanovic started reading he said, "these are your words."  And

 2     then, of course, the second sentence says "our role was," which gives the

 3     impression that these are indeed your words.

 4             But further down in the bracket they say N. B. Franken says he

 5     is -- now the third person is no longer the third person.

 6             Are you able to tell us whether these are your words or somebody

 7     is just writing this and you are also one of those people who are being

 8     written about?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Well, it is a -- a -- how do you say that?  During

10     these interviews, et cetera, there was -- notes were made and later on

11     those made -- those notes were more or less formed to a text.  Whether

12     these were literally my words, I don't know, but it is the contents and

13     the intention of the words are correct.

14             Is that an answer, Your Honour?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is an answer.  Thank you so much.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But I have another question exactly in relation

17     to this.

18             When this text was formulated, did you have the opportunity to

19     read it later and to confirm that these words are correct?

20             THE WITNESS:  This is -- sorry, again this is the 1995 debriefing

21     report.  Is that correct?

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That is what I understood from the Defence.

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Now, we didn't have the text back to verify

24     that and to put it -- a signature under it as being the correct text.  We

25     did not, Your Honour.

Page 10808

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] proceed,

 3     Mr. Stojanovic.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5        Q.   With respect to what you said, can we please look at 1D84,

 6     page 387.  That's actually two pages from the book entitled:  "The

 7     Planned Chaos," authored by Ibran Mustafic.

 8             Before we look at it, let me ask you if you recall the person

 9     named Ibran Mustafic?

10        A.   No, I don't.

11        Q.   If I were to recall and remind you that that was a SDA deputy in

12     the Assembly of BH before the war, and who was the subject of two

13     assassination attempts in the Srebrenica enclave, does this name of

14     Ibran Mustafic now ring a bell?

15        A.   No.  And you say to remind me, but I can't be reminded because

16     the name doesn't say me anything, doesn't ring a bell.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'm going to read this portion and then put a

18     question to you.  The English page is good.  We need the last paragraph,

19     in which he says, describing the events of Potocari which he witnessed

20     himself because he was there:

21             "At that time a check-point was set up on the little bridge

22     across the Rabin creek and manned by Chetniks.  Several soldiers of the

23     Dutch battalion, Nesib Mandzic, Ibro Nuhanovic and Camil were together

24     letting through and separating the people.  I knew they had been in

25     Bratunac attending negotiations but I could not believe my eyes that I

Page 10809

 1     was seeing that several Dutch soldiers were working together with the

 2     Chetniks on separating people, including Nesib, Ibro and Camil."

 3             Mr. Franken, these three names are the negotiators who attended

 4     the meeting in the Fontana hotel on the morning of the 12th of July.  One

 5     of them is a signatory of the statement dated the 17th of July, 1995,

 6     that you had an opportunity to see.  Did you have any information that

 7     could serve as a basis for the statement that you made, to the effect

 8     that the Muslims had agreed that the men suspected of war crimes may be

 9     interrogated under the supervision of the UNHCR and the Red Cross?

10        A.   Well, the information I had about that was the debriefing of one

11     of the meetings where it was discussed and obviously General Mladic told

12     the DutchBat and the committee that he wanted to interrogate the -- the

13     able men.

14             The event described in this paragraph of that book you shown me,

15     a simple comment:  No way.  There's no way that Dutch soldiers were

16     actually separating men and women together with the VRS.  That happened

17     always when we left the secure area we had outside our compound, by the

18     VRS.

19        Q.   Did you have any information to the effect that these three

20     negotiators were, in fact, at the check-point, in order to identify

21     individuals who were supposed to be separated and checked whether they

22     had participated in some crime or not, as it is stated in this book?

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Shin.

24             MR. SHIN:  Yes, Your Honours.  Again, this may have more fairly

25     been a matter put to the individuals that are being asked about here.

Page 10810

 1     Now earlier when my colleague was asking about DutchBat, that is a

 2     witness perhaps -- that is a matter perhaps appropriate for this witness.

 3     But if this -- these -- the current issue, if that has not been put

 4     before, I'm not sure how much more light this witness can shed.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question was

 7     straightforward:  Does Mr. Franken have such information about the role

 8     that these three persons had in the activities to do with the

 9     identification of the people who were being separated.  Nothing more,

10     nothing less.  So does he or doesn't he have the information?

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The observation is overruled.  [Microphone not

13     activated] you may put the question again, Mr. Stojanovic, for the

14     witness.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   So, Mr. Franken, I will reiterate my question.

17             Did you have any information, as it is quoted in this book, to

18     the effect that these three negotiators at any point in time took part in

19     identifying and recognising, identifying men and their separation at the

20     check-point?

21        A.   I don't have information that they took part, but I think I know

22     what event is wrongly described in this book.  And to take you back, when

23     I decided to make the list of men within our security, we tried to

24     register the men outside the compound as well, so not on our base.  Then

25     those three people went out to start registering the men.  They were seen

Page 10811

 1     and probably identified by the VRS, and there was a row, et cetera.  The

 2     effect was that the lady completely had a nervous breakdown and had to be

 3     taken as a patient into the hospital.  And I think that's the only event

 4     wrongly described in this book that those three were together out.

 5     Because after that, they didn't have the guts to get out of the gate

 6     anymore so we could not register the men in the outside -- outside the

 7     compound.  I think he describes that event but gives the wrong

 8     explanation for the people being there.

 9             Is that an answer?

10        Q.   Thank you.  However, is it correct that there were men, both in

11     Potocari and at the compound, who refused to be registered for some

12     reason?

13        A.   As I recollect well, within the compound, there were 60 or 70 men

14     who didn't want to be registered.  I don't have numbers of men who didn't

15     want to be registered outside the compound because the effort or the

16     attempt to register them failed, as I described to you shortly before.

17        Q.   How did you interpret their refusal to be registered and be, as

18     you said, given a name, an identity?

19        A.   I did not.  I took it for granted.

20        Q.   And we can agree that this activity and this idea of yours, in

21     fact, was not well received by the refugee -- refugees, the men, who were

22     in Potocari outside the compound.

23        A.   Again, I do not know, because in the -- the beginning of the

24     attempt to register them and to tell them what we wanted with it, there

25     was that incident with the VRS with the result for the lady, as

Page 10812

 1     described, and the fact that the two men didn't have the guts anymore to

 2     go outside the gate.  So I don't know how many outside the compound would

 3     have refused to be registered.

 4        Q.   But, in the end, there was never a list compiled of men who were

 5     outside of the compound; is that correct?

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   Would you tell the Trial Chamber, please, when the separation of

 8     the men from the women started?  Could you give us the hour and the date,

 9     as far as you know?

10        A.   Seeing the fact that the evacuation started on the 12th at about

11     half past 12.00, 1230, 1300.  Didn't happen on the first convoy; the end

12     of the second.  So it would have been the -- the organised start of it

13     would have been around, let's say, 1400 hours.  But that's an estimation.

14        Q.   So, on the 12th of July, around 1400 hours, as far as you can

15     assess?

16        A.   That's correct.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC:  [Interpretation] Could we now please pull up in

18     e-court a document that we used yesterday.  Unfortunately, Your Honours,

19     I think I failed to note down the D number, but the 65 ter number -- it's

20     actually a transcript dated 11th November 2002, a parliamentary

21     commission.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The minutes of the parliamentary

24     commission.  The 65 ter number is 19420.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  D278.

Page 10813

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  Simply

 2     for some reason, I failed to note it down yesterday.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The correct 65 ter number is 19425.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5        Q.   I would like to refer you to page 505 in the English.  That's

 6     page 505 in English.  And, in B/C/S, that's page 60.  6-0.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this is only three-page document.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I requested the

10     transcript of 11th November 2002, and my apologies, but that was 1D937.

11     937.  My apologies.  1D937.  That's a document that we used yesterday in

12     hard copy.  It's -- the original is in English, and Your Honours, I

13     believe you have it before you.  My apologies.  I would need page 60 in

14     the B/C/S version, and in the English version, the last three digits are

15     505.

16             Thank you.  This is the document before us.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you proceed, Mr. Shin, you were on

18     your feet.

19             MR. SHIN:  Yes, Your Honours.  It was merely to assist my

20     colleague in identifying the correct document that he had wanted.  But

21     while I'm on my feet I would just note that I believe my colleague may

22     have referred to the original being in English, but I believe the

23     original may have been in Dutch.  The English is a translation as well,

24     as I understand it.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Shin.

Page 10814

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And at the moment, we don't have this on the

 2     screen.  There's a different document.  On the screen, I see an interview

 3     with the witness dated 31st of March, 1999.  But you are referring to a

 4     hearing of 11th of November, 2002.  Did you manage to upload it in the

 5     meantime?  We discussed the process of uploading.  Oh, now I -- it seems

 6     to be on the screen.  But you need another page.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you indicate the page you need again.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's page 47 in the English,

10     in e-court.  Page 47, the middle of the page.  And the B/C/S page that we

11     have before us is correct.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, we don't have English in e-court.

13     It's only Dutch and B/C/S uploaded in e-court.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] In that sense, Your Honour, I

15     suggest that perhaps we could provide the witness the hard copy.  And

16     perhaps the Trial Chamber can use the hard copy because we have not been

17     able to upload it into e-court and that's on page 505 in the hard copy

18     version.

19        Q.   Sir --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you provide the witness with a hard copy,

21     Mr. Stojanovic, if you have.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that we did give it to

23     the witness yesterday, but I do have another copy here.  And I would

24     appreciate the assistance of the Court Usher.

25             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.

Page 10815

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   In this document, in this interview before parliamentary

 3     committee, you say the following:

 4             "Could you tell us why you did not -- why you refused to help

 5     with the evacuation?"

 6             And you answer as follows:

 7             "I've already described the situation the people found themselves

 8     in.  These were not rested and we well-fed citizens, resting before being

 9     deported.  When they arrived with us they were in poor condition already.

10     I could not have foreseen this.  This has to do with what I had said

11     about medical assistance, sanitary conditions and similar.  Mladic

12     offered the UN to carry this out themselves, but the UN said that they

13     weren't able to do that and they then gave the go-ahead to Mladic to do

14     it, and that's how it transpired.  Of course, had we been able to

15     consider some other manner to ensure that these people arrived safely and

16     soundly to a safe location as soon as possible and as comfortably as

17     possible with the best possible escort, that is my answer to your

18     question."

19             Mr. Franken, do you stand by what you said then in response to

20     the question put by Mrs. De Vries?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter's note:  We do not have the

22     English version before us.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, the interpreters note that they

24     don't have a copy before them.  I think it would be helpful if you gave

25     them a copy.

Page 10816

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  But do I have

 2     to do it right away?

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't know whether you're going to read from

 4     this document.  If you are, yes.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, there's nothing more that I

 6     will read.  It was just this excerpt.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] My colleague just informed me

 9     that we have actually uploaded this into e-court, the English version.

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's 65 ter 19425.  And there

12     is an English version --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, you called 19425 a few minutes

14     ago, which we told you was D278.  You discovered that was the wrong

15     document.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should put your question to the witness and

17     deal with another document after that.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand.

19        Q.   Mr. Franken, my question was:  Do you stand by the answer that

20     you provided to the parliamentary committee on the

21     11th of November, 2002?

22        A.   Yes.  But just one remark, your question originally was:  Why did

23     you refuse to co-operate or to assist the evacuation.  That is incorrect.

24     We did not refuse.  Simply we were soldiers and we got the order to

25     assist in the evacuation by the UN, so ...

Page 10817

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just to clarify this matter, the question of

 2     Ms. De Vries from this parliamentary committee was, and I quote:

 3             "Can you indicate why you did not refuse to help carry out the

 4     evacuation?"

 5             That was the question I think Mr. Stojanovic was referring to,

 6     that question of this member of the parliament.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will conclude with

10     a question, and I'm referring to this excerpt.

11        Q.   You said here that the UN said that they were unable to carry out

12     this evacuation so they gave the go-ahead to Mladic.  When you say the

13     UN, whom do you actually refer to?  Who was it who approved the

14     aforementioned evacuation?

15        A.   This information I -- came to me through Colonel Karremans who

16     had the contacts in that time to BH Command in Sarajevo.  He told me that

17     he said -- he asked the UN or BH Command to arrange that.  They gave the

18     answer that they were not able to do so.  On that occasion, they all --

19     they also said the battalion should do it himself.  Probably

20     not either -- just forgetting that we didn't have any fuel to drive any

21     car.  Then, in the end, it was, Okay, let the VRS do it with their means.

22     But that's information that came to me through Colonel Karremans.

23        Q.   Would you agree with me that at one point in time you were asked

24     whether you could organise the evacuation with the resources that you had

25     and that it was your assessment in view of the number of vehicles that

Page 10818

 1     you had and the number of refugees, and the very difficult humanitarian

 2     situation and the difficulty of feeding all these people, the Dutch

 3     battalion was, objectively speaking, unable to carry out this evacuation?

 4        A.   It's absolutely correct.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, we've just asked this question to

 6     the witness a few minutes ago.  He has answered it.  You're asking it a

 7     second time, in different words.

 8             Can you please move on.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

10             Could we now take a look, document 65 ter 19420, and I believe

11     this is a document I mentioned earlier.  That's 65 ter 19420.  And if we

12     could have the B/C/S version --

13        Q.   Mr. Franken, this is your statement on the

14     13th of September, 1995; statement you provided -- gave to the Dutch

15     army.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And could we have page 4 in

17     B/C/S, please, and page 4 in English, the last paragraph.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, there is no B/C/s version of this

19     document in e-court, if it's 19420.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Madam Registrar, we couldn't hear you.

21     Could you repeat what you said.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 19420 does not have a B/C/S version.

23     It's only Dutch and English.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 10819

 1        Q.   I will only ask you this, because you have both the Dutch and the

 2     English version before you, so I'll just ask you this, Mr. Franken:  In

 3     this statement you say that according to the agreement on the evacuation

 4     of refugees, UNPROFOR was supposed to supply the fuel --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where are you reading, sir?

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 4, the last paragraph in

 7     English, Your Honour.  The one that we have before us.  And it will go

 8     over to page 5, the last two lines.

 9        Q.   So what you said in this interview was this:

10             "The agreement on the evacuation of refugees stated that UNPROFOR

11     would supply the fuel.  Whether Smith or Karremans had made this

12     arrangement, he did not know.  Because there was a fuel shortage in the

13     battalion, Mladic supplied it himself initially, and there was talk on an

14     arrangement (in exchange for its use) later on.  It was striking that the

15     Serbs, when the 30.000 litres were delivered in Bratunac, only took what

16     they had agreed upon and to everyone's surprise left the rest behind in

17     the fuel truck."

18             The first thing I want to ask you is this:  Can you recall the

19     date when these 30.000 litres of fuel were delivered to Bratunac?  What

20     day was it, and when did the VRS take over the fuel?

21        A.   Just thinking the date for -- as far as your second question is,

22     the -- the fuel truck was stopped at OP-Papa and I was informed he was

23     there.  And the VRS said, Okay, we are entitled to a part of that and I

24     agreed to that, sent an officer along, and they exactly took out what was

25     agreed upon, what I believe is 27.000 litres.  The date will have been,

Page 10820

 1     if I recollect well, 16th of July, but that is without guarantee.  As far

 2     as I recollect, this was the 16th.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now this fact that the fuel that was supplied for the

 4     vehicles for the evacuation was supposed to be supplied through UNPROFOR,

 5     that was the result of agreement between General Mladic and

 6     General Smith; is that correct?

 7        A.   As I stated before, I don't know between which persons that

 8     agreement was.  The only thing I know that I -- through Colonel

 9     Karremans, I got the order to supply the -- a -- applicable amount of

10     diesel to the VRS concerning the diesel consumption during the evacuation

11     performed by the VRS.

12        Q.   Would it be correct to say that the decision on the evacuation

13     was taken at UNPROFOR level and that the implementation of the decision

14     was by the VRS because the Dutch battalion did not have the resources to

15     carry it out?

16        A.   I don't know whether that decision was a decision of -- thought

17     of by UNPROFOR itself or being the only possible decision seeing the

18     situation and the fact that the implementation, the actual transport of

19     the refugee -- sorry, of the population to the Kladanj area is correct.

20     That -- that was with the VRS.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And now I would like us to take a look together at

22     P1166.  That is the agreement between General Smith and General Mladic

23     that you've already testified about.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And I just need your

25     instruction, Your Honour, whether I should go on with this after the

Page 10821

 1     break or can I go on before the break with the questions that relate to

 2     this document.  And I believe after the break I will need about 15

 3     minutes to wrap up.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, didn't you indicate that you need

 5     only an hour today?

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  But I believe

 7     I will need an additional 15 minutes or so.  And that is still within the

 8     three hours that I originally requested.  I was mistaken yesterday when I

 9     thought that I would finish in an hour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you so much.  Then we will take a

11     break and maybe you must continue after the break.

12             May the witness please be escorted out.

13             We'll come back in 20 minutes' time, Mr. Franken.

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break at come back at ten to 11.00.

17             Court adjourned.

18                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] Sorry.  May the witness

21     please be escorted into the courtroom, I said.

22             And while we're waiting for the witness, Mr. Lukic, are you able

23     to answer that question that we asked.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I think my learned friend Mr. McCloskey

25     is with us to clarify the thing.

Page 10822

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, but the Chamber needs your response.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  My response.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Unless Mr. McCloskey has got your brief.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  My response is that there is some, I think,

 5     misunderstanding whether it is 92 bis or 92 ter.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  You talk with Mr. McCloskey and come back

 7     to us later.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, we did have a chance to talk about

12     it and cleared up the issue, and I can either do that now or after the

13     witness is done.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I suggest you do that after the witness is done.

15             Thank you so much, Mr. McCloskey.

16             Mr. Stojanovic, the witness is yours.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Franken, I believe that we have General Smith and

19     General Mladic's agreement before us.  And I would like to ask you if you

20     had an opportunity to see this agreement before?

21        A.   I did.

22        Q.   Is that the document that you made reference to in your statement

23     as serving as the basis for your activities in those days in Potocari?

24        A.   Well, not as the basis, because my -- our role concerning the

25     evacuation was before, but afterwards it was a -- yeah, what you say, a

Page 10823

 1     consent in our acting.  Yes, it's correct.

 2        Q.   In view of your answers that I saw in the draft transcript on the

 3     page 22 and the last four lines on 21, let me ask you once again:  After

 4     having seen this agreement, to the best of your recollection, at what

 5     level, or, rather, where exactly the decision was made to proceed with

 6     the evacuation of the civilian population from Potocari?

 7        A.   Well, it -- it looks logical that it was done between BH Command

 8     and General Mladic, that the decision was made there, as I stated more or

 9     less before.

10        Q.   And, according to the statement quoted that you stand by in its

11     entirety, you said that it was offered to Mladic to do it themselves

12     because the UN said that they didn't have the capacity and then gave

13     consent for Mladic to undertake that, were you referring to General Smith

14     specifically, or were you referring to any other UN institution instead?

15        A.   I believe I stated that before.  This information I got through

16     Colonel Karremans, and what his source was exactly, I do not know of.

17        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

18             Can we please just take a look and comment one portion of your

19     statement of 31st of March, 1999.  That's D278.  Paragraph 30 in both the

20     B/C/S and English versions.

21             And while we are waiting for it to be uploaded --

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, there's only Dutch and English

23     versions of this document.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct.  Thank you.  I

25     would appreciate if we can have both versions for the benefit of the

Page 10824

 1     witness.

 2        Q.   My question is:  Mr. Franken, would it be consistent with the

 3     rules that in case of POWs, during war time, as the case was in

 4     Srebrenica, indeed, would it be necessary and possible to carry out the

 5     procedure of screening in order to detect whether amongst them were the

 6     people suspected of war crimes?

 7        A.   Well, the normal procedure is when you have, as I stated before,

 8     if you have a big group of potential prisoners or people in war time, you

 9     start dividing them in civilians and military, and you separate them.

10     The aspect of war crimes is in that procedure not mentioned, so that is

11     not completely correct.  The -- dividing the group into men and women and

12     children and elderly men, et cetera, is normal, it's normal procedure.

13     That's what we learned our soldiers as well.  But the aspect of war

14     crimes doesn't have a role in that procedure.

15        Q.   In paragraph 30 that you can see before you, it is said:

16             "When the men and women were separated, Franken challenged the

17     commander in question ... but he invoked the Geneva Conventions with

18     regard to treatment of prisoner of war.  Franken asked us, 'What was I

19     supposed to do?'  The Serb promised to treat the ABiH soldiers in

20     accordance with the Geneva Conventions, and thereby, in fact, complying

21     with normal obligations."

22             Your previous answer, does it correspond to what you said in

23     paragraph 30?

24        A.   Yes, that is consistent with each other.  Yes.

25        Q.   So the initial step in separating the able-bodied men from the

Page 10825

 1     whole crowd of population would not basically constitute anything

 2     disputable, from the point of view of the Geneva Conventions.

 3        A.   Correct.  It is a variation on the theme because normally you

 4     separated the uniformed, the combatants, recognisable combatants from the

 5     group.  In this case, it is a variation because all able-bodied men could

 6     have been combatant.  So it is not -- there's nothing wrong with that

 7     procedure in itself.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And I will finish with one question.

 9             Yesterday, you will remember being shown a photograph that

10     confirmed your recollection that the personal belongings that had been

11     left in front of the white house were set on fire.  Now I'm asking you:

12     Do you remember that among these personal belongings, weapons,

13     ammunitions were found and that there were detonations during the process

14     of setting them on fire?

15        A.   Whether anything was found between those belongings, I do not

16     know of.  I know that there were some -- some bangs when they were set on

17     fire, some explosions as you say it.  But it doesn't mean that it was

18     ammunition.

19        Q.   Were you able to decide what caused the explosions when these

20     things were set on fire?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   And I will finish with the document that you talked about during

23     examination-in-chief, specifically the list of men who were in the -- the

24     UNPROFOR base.

25             Can you tell the Trial Chamber to whom was this list forwarded

Page 10826

 1     and has it ever arrived to the recipient that you intended to send it to?

 2        A.   The list was forwarded to HQ sector north-east Tuzla BH Command,

 3     Sarajevo, the Dutch Crisis Staff that was an element of the Dutch

 4     commanding -- General Staff here in Holland.  And, no, that was it, those

 5     three addressees.

 6             I know that, in fact, it was received here in Holland because

 7     when I was back in Holland quite some time, it was reproduced from some

 8     bureau here in the General Staff office.  Whether it really came to Tuzla

 9     or BH Command, I do not know of.  I did not get a -- from any officer, or

10     what, a receipt or confirmation of the receipt of that passage.

11        Q.   According to your estimate, how many able-bodied men in the

12     course of these two days were separated from this crowd of refugees?

13        A.   As you know, we made an estimate -- we knew pretty good how many

14     men there were within the compound.  There was an estimation of the men

15     outside the compound, and that total is, if I recollect well, an amount

16     of about 1.000 able-bodied men, and they were separated, with one

17     exception:  First convoy.

18        Q.   I've been asked to put just one more question to you,

19     Mr. Franken.  Do you know that in the area where the crash of the

20     helicopter took place, which is the general area of Zlovrh and Brloske

21     mountains, do you know if two bodies were buried there which remained on

22     the location after your departure?

23             Do you have any information about that and who these individuals

24     were, these two bodies?

25        A.   On both questions, no.  I did not have the information so I

Page 10827

 1     didn't know or had any information about the identity of the -- of the

 2     victims, of the bodies.

 3        Q.   Mr. Franken, thank you for your answers.

 4        A.   You're welcome.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, before you sit down, Exhibit D278

 6     has only the Dutch -- Dutch original and English translation.  There's no

 7     B/C/S translation.  Are we likely to get that?

 8             I see Mr. Shin is standing up.

 9             Yes, Mr. Shin.

10             MR. SHIN:  Yes, Your Honours.  If we could assist, there does

11     exist a B/C/S translation.  We have already undertaken steps under the

12     guidance of Ms. Stewart to get that uploaded, and we will be able to

13     inform you as soon as that has been done.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Please do so.  Thank you

15     very much, Mr. --

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you and thanks to my

17     learned friend.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Any re-examination, Mr. Shin?

19             MR. SHIN:  Yes, just brief.  I will be less than ten minutes.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you start, I would like to put two

21     follow-up questions to the last topics, one of the last topics mentioned

22     by Mr. Stojanovic.

23             Mr. Franken, you gave us an indication about 1.000 able bodied

24     men separated from the other population.  These 1.000 were they inside of

25     the compound or outside?  Or both together?

Page 10828

 1             THE WITNESS:  It is together, Your Honour.  There were about 300

 2     within the compound.  We knew that of -- trying to compose that list you

 3     know about, and the number on the outside was estimated in the crowd.

 4     Just an estimation, so many men, approximately.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Approximately 700 --

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes, that's correct.  6- to 700 was the estimation.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  My last question relates again to the pile of

 8     bags and other belongings set on fire.  Did anybody tell you why these

 9     things were set on fire?

10             THE WITNESS:  No, sir.  I remember that one of my officers asked

11     a Serb officer and didn't get an answer.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             Mr. Shin.

15             MR. SHIN:  Yes, Your Honour.  I would just begin with an update

16     on my last remarks on D278.  The B/C/S translation is now uploaded, so

17     that is available in e-court.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Shin.

19             MR. SHIN:  And --

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Registrar, will you please attach that

22     translation, the B/C/S translation, to the exhibit.

23             Yes, Mr. Shin.

24             MR. SHIN:  Yes, Your Honour.  And just one -- I would just point

25     Your Honours to paragraph 112 of the statement of this witness where he

Page 10829

 1     addresses -- I'm sorry, 113 where he addresses the breakdown of men

 2     inside the compound and outside.  I'm sorry, the statement does have a P

 3     number now as I'm correctly reminded.  It's P1417.  It is the amalgamated

 4     statement and just to assist Your Honours with that last question.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 7             MR. SHIN:  If I may proceed.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, sir.

 9                           Re-examination by Mr. Shin:

10        Q.   Colonel Franken, if I could begin first with the document we just

11     had on the screen a minute ago; this is D278.  My -- my colleague,

12     Mr. Stojanovic had asked you -- had read out to you paragraph 30

13     regarding the separation of men and women.  We also see there a specific

14     list says:

15             "Franken challenged the commander in question."

16             Just so that the picture is clear for this Trial Chamber, can you

17     recall who this commander in question was and you may wish to refer to

18     paragraphs -- the two paragraphs above that, 28 and 29.  You may want to

19     read that to refresh your recollection, if necessary.

20             If I could please have the page 3 -- I'm sorry, page 2 in

21     e-court.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's on the screen.

23             MR. SHIN:  Yes, thank you.

24             THE WITNESS:  Please let me read it first.

25             Yes.  The person is indeed Colonel Jankovic.

Page 10830

 1             MR. SHIN:

 2        Q.   And Colonel Jankovic in paragraph 28 -- I'm sorry, paragraph 28

 3     here, you refer to him as "assistant of Mladic."  To the best of your

 4     knowledge what was his -- his position?

 5        A.   His position within the organisation of the VRS I do not know of.

 6     He indicated that he was General Staff officer from -- as I recollect, he

 7     used the word Supreme Command.  And he is -- his job was to prepare and

 8     to co-ordinate the withdrawal of DutchBat itself and he was not involved

 9     in the evacuation.

10        Q.   And just so we're clear, when you explain just now what his job

11     was, was that something he told you?

12        A.   That is what he indicated himself, what he told me, yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to turn now to 65 ter 19420.

14             Sir, you'll recognise this document because you've just been

15     asked questions about it by my colleague Mr. Stojanovic.  And I'd just

16     like to clarify one point in the paragraph read about the fuel; this is

17     page 4 on the English.  And perhaps we'll take a moment to wait for it to

18     come up on the screen.  And you'll see in the lower half of that English

19     page the area where you've been asked questions.  Now, just before the

20     quote, let me ask this:  I just wanted to clarify the -- the fuel in

21     question here this is fuel that UNPROFOR is providing to the Serbs; is

22     that right?

23        A.   Well, originally that amount of fuel, as far as I know, came for

24     DutchBat.  It was stopped by the Serbs in the direct vicinity of OP-Papa

25     yellow bridge, then I was informed that the fuel was there and they

Page 10831

 1     wanted their share of it.

 2        Q.   Okay.  So if we look at just the provision at the first line of

 3     the last paragraph which is the line just preceding what Mr. Stojanovic

 4     had read, it states here:

 5             "Franken stated the following with regard to the diesel provided

 6     to the Serbs ..."

 7             So given -- with the background that you've just provided at this

 8     particular instance, this is regarding diesel that is being delivered in

 9     Bratunac to the Serbs; is that right?

10        A.   Yeah, from Papa the -- I ordered an officer to go with that truck

11     and they were brought to Bratunac where it was pumped into tanks of the

12     VRS.

13        Q.   And one additional question here.  You state that "to everyone's

14     surprise" the rest of the fuel had been left.  Why was it to everyone's

15     surprise?

16        A.   Yeah, well, that -- that is not on facts but a question of

17     feeling.  We thought really because there has been experience with the --

18     denying fuel, et cetera, et cetera, now there came fuel.  They said we

19     want our part and I was indeed surprised.  It is a feeling that there

20     came back about 3.000 litres being exactly the difference between the

21     amounts they could demand, being 27.000 litres, and what was in the

22     truck.  And I was surprised, just a feeling, not on facts or not seeing

23     the history of -- of -- of -- of denying diesel and things vanishing from

24     convoys coming in, et cetera, we were surprised that the 3.000 litres

25     were actually left and came to DutchBat --

Page 10832

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender

 3     65 ter 19420 into evidence.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How many pages is that, Mr. Shin?

 5             MR. SHIN:  I believe that it is -- in the English, anyway, it's a

 6     total of 23 pages, although several of the pages at the end are

 7     attachments.  So we could -- we could tender pages 1 through 14 in the

 8     English which are the statement itself.  The rest are attachments.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Shin, only one page has been referred to in

12     this statement and that page -- whatever came from that page has been

13     read into the record.  Do we really have to admit 14 pages that have

14     never been talked about at all?

15             MR. SHIN:  Your Honour, if -- this is the only document used by

16     the Defence with this witness to challenge him that has not been tendered

17     by the Defence.  So we would take the position that it would be fair

18     given some issues of memory recollection that a statement from the

19     13th of September, 1995, may assist the Trial Chamber in assessing the

20     credibility of the witness, not necessarily those other pages for the

21     substance contained therein but to assess the credibility.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Read 13 pages to assess the credibility of the

23     witness on one page.

24             MR. SHIN:  It does cover other aspects of the witness's evidence.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think the Chamber will order that only this page

Page 10833

 1     be admitted, I think.

 2             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, may I ask a couple of more questions

 3     about this document to the witness in case -- to establish a foundation

 4     should the Prosecution seek to tender this document at a later point.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] you may proceed,

 6     Mr. Shin.  Sorry, apparently my microphone was not activated.

 7             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8        Q.   Colonel Franken, you will recall that this document as has been

 9     earlier discussed was from the 13th of September, 1995.  Would your

10     memory of some of the events talked -- discussed therein have been more

11     clear at that point than it is now?

12        A.   Yeah, well, that's almost human.  Yes, it is.

13        Q.   And have you had a chance to review the materials -- I'm sorry,

14     this document itself after it was prepared?

15        A.   This is the debriefing in September 1995.  No, we were not.

16        Q.   If I could perhaps refresh your mind as to one thing, if I could

17     turn to page 13 of the English, at the bottom.  And -- yes.

18             At the very bottom we see there that -- well, I won't read the

19     whole thing, but it states that you signed it as correct.  Is that

20     correct that -- would that be right that you signed this?

21        A.   Well, in my recollection I did not.  But it says here I did.

22     Well, we had that many debriefings, reviews and things that obviously I

23     did.

24        Q.   And just --

25        A.   I see it.  I did.

Page 10834

 1        Q.   Yes.  Just to be clear, on the left we do see the original.  That

 2     is your signature; is that correct?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, I would seek leave ... if I may, I would

 5     seek leave to re-open the direct simply for one question.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, you may proceed, Mr. Shin.

 7             MR. SHIN:  Thank you.  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Why to re-open direct?  Why can't you just put the

 9     question?

10             MR. SHIN:  I -- I am formally asking to re-open the direct just

11     for this one question because it is probably not one that has been

12     triggered by the cross-examination, but it does relate to this document.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Carry on.

14             MR. SHIN:  If you could please give me one minute, Your Honours.

15             If I could please have page 12 of this in the English put up on

16     the screen.

17                           Examination by Mr. Shin: [Continued]

18        Q.   There in the first -- in the upper half of the paragraph,

19     Colonel Franken, we will see about six lines, seven lines down there's a

20     sentence that begins -- I'm sorry, six lines down:

21             "In the process fighting was alleged to have broken out with the

22     BSA around the Bratunac-Konjevici road.  This was confirmed by the BSA

23     which made reports of about 6.000 prisoner of war."

24             Would that reference to the 6.000 prisoners of war, would that be

25     the reference that you had discussed earlier regarding what

Page 10835

 1     Colonel Jankovic had told you?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I would now like to turn to a matter that -- that the

 4     Defence counsel asked you about, both at the end of yesterday as well

 5     as --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before --

 7             MR. SHIN:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  On a matter of procedure, Mr. Shin, you've asked

 9     your one question on direct.  Are you resting on direct?  Are you going

10     back to re-examination?

11             MR. SHIN:  Yes, you're absolutely right.  My apologies for that,

12     for not being clear.  I am returning to re-direct.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Before you do so, Mr. Stojanovic, does

14     the -- does the Defence have any questions arising from the one question

15     that Mr. Shin just asked?

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, but we do have

19     questions that arises from His Honour Judge Fluegge's question.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Stojanovic.

21             Yes, Mr. Shin, may proceed with your re-examination.

22             MR. SHIN:  Yes, and I'm coming to a close very soon.

23                           Re-examination by Mr. Shin [Continued]

24        Q.   Colonel Franken, both at the end of the session yesterday and

25     starting today you were shown video-clips of a meeting in the

Page 10836

 1     Hotel Fontana, and you were specifically asked about UNPROFOR as being an

 2     objective of the VRS.

 3             Now, as was discussed, that meeting was occurring on the evening

 4     of the 11th of July.  On 12th and 13th July, what -- on the 12th or 13th

 5     of July, can you just remind the Trial Chamber briefly about what

 6     happened to the -- what happened to the UNPROFOR escorts, the DutchBat

 7     escorts that you had ordered both in the buses and trucks going towards

 8     Kladanj as well as the buses going towards Bratunac with the men.

 9        A.   As far as --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Franken.

11             Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This question does not arise

13     from the cross-examination.  I never broached this topic to do with

14     members of the DutchBat on the transports, on the convoys.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Shin, any response to the objection?

16             MR. SHIN:  Yes, Your Honours.

17             We would -- we would submit that the actions that were taken on

18     the 12th and 13th did in fact target DutchBat in -- the witness can

19     explain better why, although there has been evidence as to what has

20     happened, what would happen to those escorts.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Mladic, please take a seat.  Mr. Mladic.

23     Mr. Mladic, please sit down.  Thank you.

24             Sorry, Mr. Shin.  You're making --

25             MR. SHIN:  Yes, if I may just recapitulate very briefly.

Page 10837

 1             We would submit that the actions taken against UNPROFOR escorts

 2     on 12th and 13th do relate to this issue of whether UNPROFOR was an

 3     objective of the VRS.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Has Mr. Franken not testified on those issues

 5     actually in-chief?  I thought I remembered him testifying on those

 6     things.

 7             MR. SHIN:  Yes --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  As a result, you're asking him to remind the

 9     Chamber.

10             MR. SHIN:  Yes.  I was merely seeking to put some of those

11     answers in the proper context, but with the exchange we've had just now

12     I'm prepared to move on.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  You may move on.

14             MR. SHIN:  Okay, and -- on -- the next issue is just one of a

15     clarification.  It may have been a transcription issue on yesterday's

16     testimony, Mr. Franken.

17             And, Your Honours, I'm referring to transcript page 10740, lines

18     4 through 9.

19        Q.   Colonel Franken you may recall I was asking you about the crew of

20     OP Alpha and you were explaining the -- the path that they had taken

21     back.  You described that it was "a route from a military area to

22     Bratunac."

23             And I believe you had actually said the Milici area to Bratunac.

24     Would that be correct?

25        A.   Yes, from Milici to Bratunac, that's correct.

Page 10838

 1        Q.   Okay, thank you.

 2             MR. SHIN:  And finally, Your Honours, I believe we had not -- we

 3     dealt -- we finished dealing with 65 ter 19420.  There is the page that

 4     both Mr. Stojanovic and I had addressed and also the second page which is

 5     English page 12 ERN R0184291.  We would tender those two pages into

 6     evidence.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The first page has been -- you referred to page 13

 8     when you asked your next question, not page 12, unless you misspoke.

 9             MR. SHIN:  I may have misspoke.  We asked for page 12 and we

10     actually did have page 12.  I read from page 12, at least in English.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  The pages are admitted into evidence.

12     Madam Registrar, may they please be given an exhibit number.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Shin, they will have to be uploaded as a

15     separate exhibit.

16             MR. SHIN:  Yes, Your Honours.  And in fact Ms. Stewart had

17     already anticipated the issue and we'll upload them with the

18     sub-numbering A after the 65 ter number.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Upon that happening, Madam Registrar, may

20     you please give them an exhibit number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, once uploaded document 19420A

22     receives number P1426.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

24             Yes, Mr. Shin.

25             MR. SHIN:  And, Your Honours, that completes my questions.  But,

Page 10839

 1     of course, I have associated exhibits which may come after other

 2     questions have been dealt with.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 4             Mr. Stojanovic, you indicated that you have a question arising,

 5     or questions arising from Judge Fluegge's questions.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  And that is

 7     the question that had to do with the personal effects, if you allow me.

 8     Could we see 65 ter 19418, please.  19418.

 9                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

10        Q.   Mr. Franken, this is your statement to the Royal Dutch Army.  And

11     I would request page 2 in B/C/S, page 2 in English as well of this

12     document.

13             And, if you recall, I asked -- I asked you about the setting the

14     personal effects on fire and the reasons why that was done -- why that

15     was done and that was what Judge Fluegge asked you about.  But let me

16     first ask you whether this helps you recollect the events.  If you look

17     at the English page in the middle approximately of the page, it says:

18             "After the refugees were taken away, Serbians wearing blue

19     uniforms set fire to the personal property that laid strewn around the

20     house causing a substantial quantity of small-calibre ammunition to

21     explode.  The witness received the report stating that a number of

22     weapons had been found after the refugees' departure."

23             Now, let me ask you:  Does this help refresh your memory, this

24     part of the statement, about what the situation was like relating to the

25     weapons and the ammunition as you wrote about it then?

Page 10840

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I didn't ask the witness about

 2     ammunition.  I only asked the witness if he heard from anybody what the

 3     reason was that these personal belongings were set on fire.  I didn't

 4     deal with ammunition at all.  Just to make that clear.  You should limit

 5     your question to that.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Your Honour, if you

 7     allow me to put a question, I will; if not, that, of course, would be

 8     your decision.  But here it says that because of the --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, it's a question that must arise from

10     Judge Fluegge's question.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If you think that I should not

12     put the -- this question, I withdraw it.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

14             Mr. Franken, that brings us to the end of your testimony.  The

15     Chamber would like to take this opportunity to thank you very much for

16     coming to testify at the Tribunal.  You are now excused.  You may travel

17     safely back home.

18             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I know you don't have far to travel, but, still,

20     travel safely.

21             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Who do I call on, Mr. McCloskey or Madam D'Ascoli

25     or Mr. Shin?

Page 10841

 1             MR. SHIN:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, to -- I don't mean to -- to

 2     step in front of my -- my -- Mr. McCloskey.  I just wanted to address the

 3     issue of the associated exhibits.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I beg your pardon.  Yes, indeed go ahead.

 5             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, at this point as I had indicated earlier

 6     several of these have already been admitted into evidence, so we have

 7     seven remaining and one that I would just explain briefly.

 8             Maybe I'll take the explanation first.  We originally had as an

 9     associated exhibit 65 ter 18739 which is this July 17th declaration or

10     statement.  That has actually -- the identical document has been admitted

11     already into evidence as P1138.  And that was the document I used in

12     court, so if we could simply indicate on the record here that in the

13     witness's amalgamated statement in paragraph 105 where he discusses that

14     document, it is indeed P1138.  That might suffice.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] 65 ter 18739 has

16     already been admitted as 1138.

17             MR. SHIN:  Yes.  It had a different description but it's the same

18     document or same -- since there are several language versions.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Same document, and it came out of the different

20     65 ter number.

21             MR. SHIN:  Yes.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you.

23             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24             And then if I may take the remainder in order.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

Page 10842

 1             MR. SHIN:  65 ter 05279.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not ... 05279?  Is it -- I don't see it on

 3     your list, sir.

 4             MR. SHIN:  I'm sorry, it's on -- I'm told it's on the second page

 5     of the list.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I've looked at the second page, sir.  I don't see

 7     it.

 8             Mr. Shin, there are two different lists, and I'm just being

 9     handed a list by Madam Registrar which I didn't have in my papers,

10     neither does Judge Fluegge have a copy.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So I suppose we're dealing now with the 5279, yes,

13     sir.

14             Madam Registrar, can we give that a number, please.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05279 receives number P1427,

16     Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

18             Yes, Mr. Shin.

19             MR. SHIN:  Yes.  The next one is 65 ter 04786.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Yes, 04786.

22             Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04786 receives number P1428,

24     Your Honours.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

Page 10843

 1             Yes, Mr. Shin.

 2             MR. SHIN:  Next one is 65 ter 13750.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  13750.  Yes.

 4             Yes, Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 13750 receives number P1429,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Shin.

 8             MR. SHIN:  17864.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 17864 receives number P1430,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

13             Yes, Mr. Shin.

14             MR. SHIN:  04408.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  04408.

16             Yes, Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04408 receives number P1431,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Shin.

20             MR. SHIN:  04460.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

22             Yes, Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04460 receives number P1432,

24     Your Honours.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Shin.

Page 10844

 1             MR. SHIN:  And the last document is 65 ter 05221.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05221 receives number P1433,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 6             MR. SHIN:  And, Your Honours, my apologies for taking them in the

 7     order in which they appeared in the statement that was different from the

 8     order in the list itself, which may have caused the confusion.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's fine.

10             They started with 1431, I suppose -- no, 1428.  P1428, P1431,

11     P1432 up to P1 -- P1427 up to 1433 are all admitted into evidence.

12             Thank you so much.

13             Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, good morning, Mr. President, Your Honour,

15     everyone.  I have had a chance to speak with Mr. Lukic and

16     Mr. Stojanovic, and I think we now can clear up the -- the issue of the

17     swap as Judge Orie rightly put it.  If I could go into private session, I

18     think it would be better.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 10845











11 Pages 10845-10846 redacted. Private session.















Page 10847

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Just want to make a correction

23     on the record with regard to Exhibit P1423.  Yesterday 65 ter number 5142

24     received exhibit P1423.  While this is accurately recorded in e-court,

25     the transcript has a reference to P1432 being admitted into evidence.  It

Page 10848

 1     should refer instead to P1423 being admitted.

 2             Thank you so much.

 3             We -- yes, Mr. Groome.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just in relation to the matter that was

 5     dealt with in private session I seek permission to inform the provider of

 6     what has transpired by providing a copy of the transcript to the provider

 7     as was the practice earlier on this issue.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Absolutely.  You may do so, sir.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We're only three minutes to a break.  I suppose

11     Madam D'Ascoli agrees with me before I've said anything, so --

12             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, I think it is wise to take the break now,

13     Your Honours, also because the witness has protective measures, so it

14     might take some time to set them up.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  We'll take a break and come back at ten

16     past.

17             Court adjourned.

18                           --- Recess taken at 11.47 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 12.11 p.m.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

21                           [Closed session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 10849

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 7             Good afternoon, Witness.  May you please make the declaration.  A

 8     copy of it is being presented to you.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

10     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11                           WITNESS:  RM314

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

14             Before I hand you over to the Prosecution counsel, just wanted to

15     tell you that the Chamber is aware that you are testifying under

16     protective measures of a pseudonym and image distortion.  You go by

17     the -- in this trial, you'll go by the name RM314, so we will call you

18     Witness RM314 and not your name, okay?  And, of course, people outside

19     the court will not see your face.

20             You'll first be examined by Madam D'Ascoli, who is Prosecution's

21     attorney.  She is on your right.

22             Madam D'Ascoli.

23             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24                           Examination by Ms. D'Ascoli:

25        Q.   And good afternoon, Witness.  Can I please have 65 ter 28861 not

Page 10850

 1     for public broadcast, please.

 2             Sir, I will show you a document which contains personal

 3     information related to you.  Please do not read out loud this

 4     information.  But once you can see the document displayed on the screen,

 5     can you please have a look at it, and tell us whether can you confirm

 6     that what you see on this page is your name and date of birth.  And

 7     please do not repeat any of them.

 8        A.   Yes, it's correct.

 9             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honour, I tender this pseudonym sheet into

10     evidence under seal.  65 ter 28861, please.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             Mr. Lukic.  No object -- Mr. Ivetic.  I'm so sorry.

13             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Registrar, it is admitted into evidence.

15     May it please be given an exhibit number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28861 receives number P1434,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

19             Yes, Madam D'Ascoli.

20             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, Your Honours, can I now call up 65 ter 28858

21     and again, please, not for public broadcast.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam D'Ascoli, before we call that, P1434 is

23     under seal?

24             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, it is, Your Honour, thank you.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  And you're calling for 28858.

Page 10851

 1             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Exactly, not for public broadcast, please.

 2        Q.   Sir, do you remember providing a statement to this Tribunal on

 3     16 August 1995?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   Now can you see the document on the screen.  Can you have a look

 6     at the very first page of the English document which is the original and

 7     in particular the signature at the bottom of the page.  Do you recognise

 8     the signature, sir?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Is that your signature?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can I now have 65 ter 28859 on the screens,

13     please, again not for public broadcast.

14        Q.   Sir, the second document is going to appear on the screen is a

15     one-page additional statement dated 8 June 1999.  Do you remember

16     providing this statement to this Tribunal?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   And again, I will ask you whether you recognise the signature at

19     the bottom of this page in the English, which is the original of the

20     statement.

21        A.   Yes, that's my signature.

22             MS. D'ASCOLI:  I will now call up the third and last statement,

23     which is 65 ter 28860, again not for public broadcast.

24        Q.   Sir, this third statement is a statement given to this Tribunal,

25     again on 14 June 1999 to clarify some parts of your previous statement of

Page 10852

 1     16 August 1995.  Now, do you remember providing this third statement?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And do you recognise the signature at the bottom of the page of

 4     the English version?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Is that your signature?

 7        A.   Yes, it is.

 8        Q.   Sir, considering these three statements, did you have the

 9     opportunity to read and review them in preparation for your appearance

10     today?

11        A.   Yes, I did have this opportunity.

12        Q.   Are you satisfied that these three statements are an accurate

13     record of what you experienced as -- to the best of my recollection, of

14     course?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   If you were asked today the same questions that you were asked

17     when you provided these three statements, would you give the same answers

18     and provide the same information, in substance?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Sir, now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you

21     affirm that you provided the information in those statements in

22     accordance with the truth?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders these three

25     statements, 65 ter 28858, 28859, and 28860, pursuant to Rule 92 ter and

Page 10853

 1     all of them under seal.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, the Defence first stands by the

 3     objections in our written response, a filing dated 9 April 2013, which

 4     was filed confidentially, so I will not repeat the grounds set forth

 5     herein.  And in addition we believe that as to number 28858, that is

 6     neither reliable nor appropriate under Rule 92 ter given that portions of

 7     it have been repudiated as being untrue by this witness in another

 8     proceeding before the ICTY.  Therefore I would ask for it to be MFI'd so

 9     that we may highlight these issues in cross-examination and have the

10     Chamber decide into due course.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you so much.  We'll MFI all of them

12     in the meantime.

13             Madam Registrar, 28858.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives P1435, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Under seal, MFI'd.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28859 receives number P1436,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Under seal, MFI'd.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  And document 28860 receives number P1437,

20     Your Honours.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Under seal, MFI'd.

22             Yes, Madam D'Ascoli.

23             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, Your Honours, with the Chamber's permission I

24     will now briefly summarise RM314's written evidence for the public and

25     the record.

Page 10854

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you did explain to the witness [Overlapping

 2     speakers] ...

 3             MS. D'ASCOLI:  [Overlapping speakers] ... I did, Your Honours,

 4     yes.

 5             JUGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 6             MS. D'ASCOLI:

 7             The witness is a Bosnian Muslim who was in Srebrenica in

 8     July 1995.  As Bosnian Serb forces began entering Srebrenica on

 9     11 July 1995, the witness joined the column of Muslim men fleeing the

10     Srebrenica enclave and heading towards Muslim-held territory.

11             On 13 July 1995, in the early morning hours, the witness was

12     captured by Bosnian Serb police and transferred to the custody of

13     officers at the MUP check-point in Konjevic Polje.  He was beaten and

14     mistreated together with other Muslim prisoners.

15             Later that morning, the witness and other Muslim prisoners were

16     ordered to board a bus and were taken a few kilometres up the road

17     towards Zvornik.  The prisoners were then ordered off the bus marched

18     down an embankment, forced to line up on the banks of the Jadar river and

19     shot by Bosnian Serb soldiers.  The entire group of prisoners was

20     executed.

21             This witness was shot, fell into the river, was taken down by the

22     stream and managed to survive.  He eventually joined another group of

23     fleeing Muslims and reached Muslim-held territory.

24             That concludes the summary of the witness's evidence, Your

25     Honours.

Page 10855

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam D'Ascoli.  You may

 2     proceed with your questions.

 3             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4        Q.   Sir, now that I have summarised your written evidence I'm going

 5     to ask a few additional questions.

 6             MS. D'ASCOLI:  First of all, can I call up Exhibit P1132 and can

 7     I please have e-court page 49 on the screens.

 8        Q.   Sir, while this document is appearing on the screens, I want to

 9     move directly to the events of the early morning of 13 July 1995 around

10     5.00 a.m. when you were around Konjevic Polje and, for the record, this

11     is at page 2 of the English of the 16 August 1995 statement which now has

12     the MFI number P1435.

13             So you describe page 3 of this statement how a number of

14     policemen saw you, told you --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. D'Ascoli, at the moment we have a photograph

16     on the screen.  Is that correct?

17             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, Your Honours, yes.  I call it before because

18     generally it takes some time to load up.  So that's why.

19        Q.   So, sir, you describe how a number of policemen saw you on that

20     morning, told you to surrender and then brought you first to a guard

21     house.

22             Sir, can you please look at the photographs on the screens.  Do

23     you recognise these buildings?

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly slow down for the interpreters.  Thank

25     you very much.

Page 10856

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  This is the outbuilding next

 2     to the school where we were taken after being captured.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam D'Ascoli, I guess you heard the

 4     interpreters' request?

 5             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, I did, Your Honours.  I will slow down.

 6        Q.   So, sir, you said that you recognised this building.  So the

 7     outbuilding next to the school where you were taken after being captured.

 8             So is the first building on the foreground of the photo, the one

 9     that we see on the left-hand side of the photo, the little brick house,

10     is that the guard house where you were initially brought by the

11     policemen?

12        A.   Yes.  I found two civilians already there, two civilians who had

13     been captured before me.

14        Q.   Okay.  Sir, the last place where you were taken that same morning

15     before being put on bus was a warehouse, and you say next to the

16     intersection called Konjevic Polje.  This is at page 5 of your

17     16 August 1995 statement.

18             Can I call up 65 ter 04884.

19             And when the photographs comes -- appears on the screen, sir, I

20     will ask you to have a look at this photograph and tell us whether you're

21     familiar with what is depicted in it.  Now we can see the photographs on

22     the screen.

23        A.   This ask an intersection in Konjevic Polje, and there's a

24     warehouse next to the river.

25        Q.   Is that the warehouse where you were brought?

Page 10857

 1        A.   Yes, it is.

 2        Q.   And I understand this is the -- is this the intersection called

 3     the Konjevic Polje you referred to in your statement?

 4        A.   Yes, it is.

 5        Q.   And for the record so that's it clear, sir, am I correct that the

 6     warehouse you're referring to is the white building that we see on a band

 7     of the -- of the road, of the main road, towards the left of the

 8     photograph next to the river?

 9        A.   Yes, that's the warehouse.

10        Q.   And in order to go to that warehouse, to that warehouse, you were

11     taken, I understand from your evidence, down the straight road that

12     starts from the very right of the photographs and lead to the

13     intersection where the main road bends; is that correct?  Were you taken

14     along that road to reach the warehouse?

15        A.   Yes, that is correct.  One cannot see the house where we had been

16     before we were taken to the warehouse.  We were taken from the direction

17     of Bratunac to the warehouse.

18             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, I would tender these photographs.

19     If you believe that it is to be marked for the sake of clarity, I could

20     have the witness mark it but try to describe it as best as I could.

21             MR. IVETIC:  No objection, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  04884 is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

23     given an exhibit number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document receives number P1438, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

Page 10858

 1             Yes, Ms. D'Ascoli.

 2             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, Your Honours.

 3        Q.   Sir, later that same morning of 13 July 1995, you and other

 4     detainees in the warehouse were ordered to get on a bus.  For the record,

 5     this is at page 6 of your 16 of August 1995 statement.

 6             Now, do you remember how many detainees in total boarded the bus?

 7        A.   There were exactly 15 of them, and I was the 16th.

 8        Q.   And what was their ethnicity?

 9        A.   All of them were Muslim.

10        Q.   Did any of the officers or soldiers that you mention in your

11     statement with regard to this incident, did any of them get on the bus?

12        A.   Yes.  Four soldiers boarded the bus who had been with us in the

13     warehouse the whole time.  And there was a woman who drove the bus.

14        Q.   And were these the same soldiers that were beating you and the

15     other detainees in the warehouse while you were in the warehouse?

16        A.   Yes, those were the same soldiers.

17        Q.   Sir, after a short drive you were then ordered to get out, to get

18     off the bus, at the place that you call in your statement Podkuslat.  For

19     the record, this is again page 6 of the same statement.

20             Did all of the Muslim detainees got off the bus and were lined up

21     on the road and then down the embankment?

22        A.   Yes, that is correct.  We were ordered to get off the bus and

23     then they lined us up on the asphalt road next to the rail.  One of them

24     said, No, this is not the good place.  Take them down to the river.  And

25     that's where we went and we were lined up again.

Page 10859

 1        Q.   Was -- you mentioned in your statement at some point a young boy

 2     around 14 or 15 years old that was brought to one of the buildings where

 3     you were detained before going to the warehouse.  My question is:  Was

 4     this young boy also among these 16 Muslim detainees?

 5        A.   Yes, that's correct.  He was with us as well.

 6        Q.   Now, did the four soldiers that were on the bus with you, did

 7     they get off as well?

 8        A.   Yes, they did.

 9        Q.   And was it these four soldiers that opened fire on you and the

10     other Muslim detainees?

11        A.   Yes, that is correct.

12        Q.   I won't go into the details of what happened, as we have this in

13     the statement.  Can I just ask you to tell us at what time approximately

14     this execution occurred by the banks of the Jadar river?

15        A.   That happened in the morning, all the way through until 10.00 or

16     11.00.

17        Q.   Of course we're talking about the same morning, the

18     13th of July, 1995; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can I now have on the screen, 65 ter 04745.  For

21     the record, Your Honours, this map was used with the witness during his

22     testimony in Krstic on -- the 23rd of May, 2000, and was in that case

23     Exhibit P176.

24        Q.   Sir, do you remember looking at this map during your testimony in

25     the Krstic case?

Page 10860

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   And can you tell us what the yellow dot represents?

 3        A.   The yellow dot represents the execution site.

 4        Q.   So is this the place you called Podkuslat, a canyon, in your

 5     statement?

 6        A.   Yes, it is.

 7             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 04745 into evidence

 8     as a public exhibit.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  No objection, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Admitted into evidence.  May it please be given an

11     exhibit number, Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04745 receives number P1439,

13     Your Honours.

14             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can I now call up 65 ter 05165.  Not for public

15     display, please.

16        Q.   Sir, you were wounded in your side; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Sir, do you remember this photo?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, this is a Polaroid photo of the

21     witness.  This was taken in May 2000 before his testimony in -- in the

22     Krstic case as well.  This is also recorded in that transcript, in the

23     Krstic transcript of 23 May -- transcript page 3280.

24        Q.   Sir, looking at this photograph, can you describe where the entry

25     point of your -- of the wound is and where the exit point is of the

Page 10861

 1     wound.  You can use directions, saying right, left.

 2        A.   From the right side to the left.

 3        Q.   So can you tell us, the sign, the mark that we see on the

 4     right-hand side of the photo, that was the exit or the entry wound?

 5             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Maybe it's easier if we have the witness mark the

 6     photographs.

 7             Can the usher please provide him with a red marking.

 8        Q.   And, sir, please wait for my instruction before using the -- the

 9     pen.  So I will ask you to put a number 1 next to the entry wound; and

10     the number 2 next to the exit wound.  So 1 for the entry wound.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Thank you, sir.

13             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, I will tender this photo as marked

14     by the witness into evidence under seal, please.

15             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  For my own clarification where is this person

17     facing?

18             MS. D'ASCOLI:

19        Q.   Witness, could you please tell your front side, which -- which

20     side of the photograph is facing?  Or maybe which side of your -- whether

21     we're looking at your right side or at your left side at the bottom?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam D'Ascoli, the question is where is the

23     person facing, the person in the photograph.  [Microphone not activated]

24             MS. D'ASCOLI:

25        Q.   Sir, where -- where -- which way are you facing?

Page 10862

 1        A.   Well, straight ahead.  This is the left side of my body.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] Thank you very much.

 3             At page 59, line 25, you were asked to say how you were injured,

 4     and you said -- show the entry wound and the exit wound.  You said "From

 5     the right side to the left," which says to me the entry wound would be on

 6     the right side and the exit wound on the left.

 7             Am I right, Witness?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the part where I was -- the

 9     part of the body that -- where I was injured is my left side, and so this

10     is the entry and this is the exit wound forward.  The abdomen is in

11     front.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  So that's the correction you make to that

13     answer at page 59, line 25.  Thank you so much.

14             So this picture here, the person in this picture, is facing to

15     the left, as we are looking at the picture?

16             Am I right?  Showing us his left side of the body.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

19             Yes, Ms. D'Ascoli, you may proceed.

20             MS. D'ASCOLI:  I would tender this exhibit as marked by the

21     witness into evidence, under seal.  65 ter number is 05165.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  05165 is admitted into evidence under seal.  May

23     it please be give an exhibit number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, may I ask, just photograph as

25     marked by the witness --

Page 10863

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  As marked by the witness.

 2             THE REGISTRAR: -- to be uploaded separately receives number

 3     P1440, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Registrar, and may it

 5     please be uploaded separately as marked.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And is admitted under seal.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Under seal.

 8             MS. D'ASCOLI:  And I have the last two questions.

 9        Q.   Now, sir, in the days just after the Jadar river shooting while

10     you were still en route to reach Muslim-held territory, you received

11     help.  Someone dressed and bandaged your wound.  Do you remember the name

12     of this person?

13        A.   Yes, I do.  It was a male nurse.  His name was Mujo Subasic.

14        Q.   And now, what did you know about this person?

15        A.   I knew that he was a refugee in Srebrenica, that he hailed from

16     Han Pijesak, the village of Podriplje [phoen].

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure of the name of the

18     village.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And that during the war he worked

20     as a male nurse.

21             MS. D'ASCOLI:

22        Q.   Sir, just one last question.  Can you tell us how your health is

23     nowadays?

24        A.   Well, as the years go by, it's getting worse and worse.  I should

25     have a -- I should have some hip surgery but I dare not do it yet.

Page 10864

 1        Q.   And this is as a consequence of the wound, the wound you received

 2     during the execution at Jadar river; correct?

 3        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 4        Q.   Thank you for having answered my questions, sir.

 5             MS. D'ASCOLI:  I don't have any further questions at this stage.

 6     That concludes my direct examination, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam D'Ascoli.

 8             Mr. Ivetic.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

11        Q.   Good day, RM314.  I have some questions for you today.  I would

12     ask that you pay close attention to the precise questions that I ask so

13     as to focus your answers to be the most truthful answers possible for

14     that question.  Is that understood, sir?

15        A.   Yes, yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Then I'd like to begin.  First, sir, I want to just

17     ask you a few brief general questions before moving on to areas that are

18     specific to the matters contained in your statements and in your

19     testimony today.

20             First, I would like to ask you about the general situation in

21     Srebrenica in the months leading up to July 1995.  Can you tell me,

22     during your time-period in the enclave did you have occasion to

23     eyewitness armed Armija BiH soldiers, whether in uniform or not, present

24     in the enclave?

25        A.   What soldiers do you mean?  Whose soldiers?

Page 10865

 1        Q.   Armija BiH soldiers of the 28th Division.

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Apart from the UNPROFOR and other UN staff, did you happen to see

 4     any other soldiers in the enclave of Srebrenica that were armed during

 5     that time-period that you were there leading up to July 1995?

 6        A.   Well, they weren't armed.  You could see some people maybe but

 7     not as groups.

 8        Q.   With -- with respect to those people that you have now identified

 9     as seeing them not armed and not as groups, could you please identify

10     with what armed formation they were affiliated.  With what army?

11        A.   No, no.  I cannot identify them.

12        Q.   Fair enough, sir.  Now can you tell me, prior to the war, did you

13     have occasion to do your compulsory national service with the federal

14     army?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And could you tell me, sir, at that time where you served and

17     what your branch of service or speciality was.

18        A.   I served in Macedonia, and I was an infantryman.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, if we could briefly go into private

20     session so as not to reveal the personal details of this witness.  I have

21     two questions for private session.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber move into private session.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10866

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

Page 10867

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 2             Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Now, sir, I'd like to move to some topics that you've directly

 5     raised in your testimony and statements to find out some additional

 6     information and get clarification.  I would like to take a look at the

 7     16 August 1995 ICTY statement.  I would ask that it not be broadcast.

 8     This is it P1435, marked for identification.

 9             And, sir, now we have this document on the screen, am I correct

10     that this document was taken -- this statement was taken from you in

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina approximately one month after the fall of Srebrenica

12     and after your arrival onto the Muslim-controlled territory?

13        A.   Yes, that's correct.

14        Q.   And do you recall the individual who interviewed you as being

15     Mr. Jean-Rene Ruez of the Office of the Prosecutor of the Tribunal?

16        A.   Yes, that's correct.

17        Q.   And -- and I believe that Mr. Ruez used a translator in his

18     discussions with you.  Can you tell me if the translator appeared to be

19     conversant enough in the Bosnian language such that you could understand

20     what was being asked of you?

21        A.   Yes.  But the interpreter had a Croatian accent.

22        Q.   Had anyone pressured you either or before during this interview

23     with Mr. Ruez of the Prosecution on 16 August 1995 to say things that

24     were untrue in this statement?

25        A.   No.

Page 10868

 1        Q.   And just so we're clear, could you tell us, was this statement

 2     translated orally to you before you signed it, or were you provided a

 3     written translation of the same?

 4        A.   No, it was just read back to me.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And now if we can turn to the eighth page of the

 6     English original and it should be the last page of the B/C/S.  And, sir,

 7     here we have the last page of the document.  Was the attestation or

 8     acknowledgment explained to you such that you were signing an English

 9     statement that was true to the best of your knowledge and recollection?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now I'd like to return to the front page of the

12     document and I'd like to direct your attention to the entry for your

13     current occupation.  And you can follow along, sir, on the Bosnian

14     version.  But here, in the English version, it is listed as saying you

15     are "member of the Bosnian army, soldier."

16             Does that comport to information that you gave to Mr. Ruez at the

17     time that this statement was taken?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Was this something that was read back to you by the translator

20     that was present before you were asked to sign this page and, indeed,

21     this statement?

22        A.   Well, probably.  I didn't really pay attention to that.

23        Q.   Did you object to this information or ask for it to be corrected?

24        A.   No.  I was in a special mental state.  What kind of corrections

25     would I ask?  I didn't even know where I was.

Page 10869

 1        Q.   I would now like to move to the second page in both versions of

 2     this statement marked for identification and under seal.  And again, we

 3     should continue not to broadcast the document for that reason.

 4             And here I'd like to look at the first paragraph of the statement

 5     with you.  I will not read it, but it indicates that you were demobilised

 6     when UNPROFOR arrived and then you worked as a courier between the

 7     civilian authorities and the lines of defence.  Is this truthful and

 8     accurate, this part of the statement?

 9        A.   No, I was released.  I was demobilised and I worked as a courier

10     in civilian protection.

11        Q.   And is it therefore your position that you did not have any

12     duties or any role within the armed forces of the BiH government in

13     Srebrenica in 1995?

14        A.   Well, sir, what kind of role could I play?  I was not a general.

15        Q.   I understand your comment, sir.  Could you now answer my

16     question.  Am I correct that your position is that you did not have any

17     duties or any role within the armed forces of the BiH government in

18     Srebrenica in 1995.

19        A.   That's correct.

20        Q.   Was this part of your statement read back to you and did you

21     object that this information was incorrect?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which information, Mr. Ivetic?

23             MR. IVETIC:

24        Q.   The information that he was a courier between the civilian

25     authorities and the defence lines.

Page 10870

 1        A.   Well, she probably did read it, but I wasn't paying attention,

 2     really.  I did not deny it.

 3        Q.   Sir, earlier today you testified that you read this statement and

 4     affirmed it to be true and accurate.  Why did you not, at that time,

 5     alert us as to this inaccuracy in the statement?

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could I first ask the witness, please, what was

 7     your duty as a courier?  Who was giving you orders?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received orders from the civilian

 9     protection.  If there was something to be done, something taken to

10     someone, or taken from someone, helping people, that's what our job was,

11     civilian protection.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And were you working as a courier between

13     civilian authorities and defence lines?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I just wanted to clarify what is -- what you mean

16     by incorrect statement, Mr. Ivetic.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

18             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

19        Q.   Why did you not bring to our attention that this statement here

20     that says you were a courier between the civilian authorities and the

21     lines of defence was incorrect this morning when you were asked whether

22     you had -- whether you had reviewed the statement and whether it was

23     truthful?

24        A.   Well, we cannot change it now.  This statement was given in 1995.

25     In view of the mental state in which I was, and also the possibility that

Page 10871

 1     there may have been a translation error, well ...

 2        Q.   Do you believe that there are other errors in the statement that

 3     you have now discovered upon reading it in a language that you

 4     understand?

 5        A.   Yes, there are some minor errors.  Others too.

 6        Q.   I'd like to take an opportunity to look at some of your testimony

 7     under solemn declaration in the Popovic trial.  If we can have 1D952.

 8     That should be page 37 and 38 in e-court, starting at line 25 on the 37th

 9     page and this was in open session in that case, so I don't believe we

10     have a problem with it being up on the monitors.  It should be transcript

11     pages 3233 through 3234.

12             And, sir, in this section you were being asked about Osman Suljic

13     being in uniform and armed with a weapon leading a column of men you were

14     with, and you denied the same.  And I will now read for you the selection

15     from this transcript so that you may understand it in a language that you

16     understand.  And now begin at line 25 leading on to the next page:

17             "Q.  Sir, does that mean that this sentence, which I read out to

18     you before the break, that Osman Suljic was the president of the

19     municipality of Srebrenica and that he was leading your group, was

20     incorrect?

21             "A.  Yes, that is right.

22             "Q.  Did you sign this statement?

23             "A.  Yes.

24             "Q.  Did you ever, when you talked with the representatives from

25     the Prosecutor's Office and the investigators, when you were submitting

Page 10872

 1     corrections, did you ask that that part be corrected?

 2             "A.  Yes.

 3             "Q.  And was this done?

 4             "A.  I think that it was not.

 5             "Q.  When I showed you your previous statement given to the

 6     investigators of this Tribunal, when you spoke about your position, did

 7     you, when the statement was read back to you, point to that mistake?

 8             "A.  I think that this was a mistake in the translation, a

 9     courier between the civilian and the military authorities."

10             Now, sir, I ask you first:  This selection from the Popovic trial

11     that I've read to you, do you stand by it as being truthful and accurate

12     as to the matters that are contained in it?

13        A.   The column was always broken up and it could happen ten times,

14     for instance.  There was no one at the head of the column.  There was no

15     organisation.  There was no one leading the column or at the head of the

16     column.  There was no one responsible for the column.

17             The other error between the civilian and -- authorities and the

18     military, I was only a courier.  That was my duty obligation, so I had

19     absolutely nothing to do with military authorities.

20        Q.   I do understand that, sir.  And I'm asking you:  Do you stand by

21     this testimony that I've read to you, indicating that you brought such

22     errors to the attention of the Office of the Prosecutor and they did not

23     correct them, or you did not believe that they corrected them?

24        A.   I pointed them out, and I said this before the Popovic trial,

25     just the same thing.

Page 10873

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to move to the next page of this transcript,

 2     which is page 39 in e-court.

 3             And, again, sir, I'd like to read for you this selection so that

 4     you -- that you can have the information and answer my questions.

 5             Beginning at line 1:

 6             "[Interpretation] I don't see any mistakes in the translation

 7     between -- in these two statements.  And Investigator Ruez, who took this

 8     statement, did you indicate this difference to him?

 9             "A.  The statement was given and the interpreter or the

10     translator was from Croatia, and you know that there are some words - and

11     this happened on Friday too - that they are different from one testimony

12     to the next.  In one case, I said 'water basin,' and they said 'the basin

13     for bathing.'  And these are the kinds of mistakes that we encountered.

14     So I think it is a question of translation."

15             First of all, sir, do you stand by and confirm this answer from

16     the Popovic trial as being truthful and accurate such that you would

17     repeat it again today subject to the solemn declaration?

18        A.   Yes, that's correct.

19        Q.   And now I'd like to continue from line 10 onwards:

20             "Q.  Sir, when you came to Susnjari, you were lined up by your

21     leadership into lines, and groups were formed in such a way that there

22     were people there who were armed and those who were not armed; is this

23     correct?

24             "A.  Yes.

25             "Q.  Each group left at a precise time.

Page 10874

 1             "A.  It wasn't a group.  It was a column.

 2             "Q.  But groups were formed and these groups were mixed including

 3     armed and unarmed people?

 4             "A.  This happened the next day.  People who stayed behind,

 5     people who didn't manage to pass through the first Serb lines at Buljim.

 6             "Q.  So this is not correct, that part of your statement?

 7             "A.  Yes, it's not true that groups were formed in Susnjari but

 8     people returned to Buljim the next day to try to take people across who

 9     were without weapons.

10             "Q.  So that part of the statement which was introduced as an

11     exhibit before the Trial Chamber and which you confirmed for the

12     Prosecutor as being correct, now is not correct.

13             "A.  Sir, do you know what the distance is from Susnjari to

14     Budjim?"

15             Sir, do you stand by and affirm that this testimony of yours from

16     the Popovic trial that I've just presented to you is both truthful and

17     accurate, such that you would repeat it again today if asked the same

18     questions?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   I'd like to now call up --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic, I note the time.

22             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise, Your Honours.  We can take the break

23     now.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take the break now.

25             May the Chamber please move into closed session.

Page 10875

 1                           [Closed session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

20             MR. IVETIC:  I would like at this time to call up another

21     document that should not be broadcast to the public.  It is it 1D00953.

22        Q.   And, sir, while we wait for that document to be on the screen, I

23     advise you that this is a -- this is an information report that we

24     received from the Prosecution relative to the meeting you had with them

25     on the 7th of May, 2013.  And if we look at item number 2, as we -- I

Page 10876

 1     will read it for you since we did not receive a -- oh.  I guess we do

 2     have a translation in the system.  If we can look at item number 2, sir,

 3     it says that the witness reviewed his prior statements of 13 August 1995,

 4     and it has the number for it; 16 August 1995, again with the number;

 5     8th June 1999, again with the number; and 14 June 1999, again with the

 6     numbers.  He confirmed the evidence in these statements.

 7             And the question I have for you, sir, is:  Did you in fact

 8     confirm these statements to be true, and if so, why did you not draw the

 9     attention of the Prosecution to these and other errors that we have now

10     gone through with you?

11        A.   Yes, I did make corrections.

12        Q.   Is it therefore your testimony that this information report from

13     the Office of the Prosecution that in item 2 says, "He confirmed the

14     evidence in these statements," that this is incorrect?

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May you please repeat your answer, Mr. Witness.

17     The interpreters didn't hear you.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we made the corrections, and I

19     stand by the statements corrected.  The statement made on the 7th of

20     May ...

21             MR. IVETIC:

22        Q.   If you could provide us with some clarification.  You said:  Yes

23     we made corrections.  Who is it that you made corrections with, sir?

24        A.   With the Prosecutors.

25        Q.   Okay.  Now I'd like to take a look at another document and again

Page 10877

 1     this one should also not be broadcast.  It is 1D939 and dates before your

 2     1995 statement to Mr. Ruez of the Prosecution.

 3             And if we can have the first page.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It should not be broadcast.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.  Should not be broadcast.

 6             I apologise.  Is this the first page of the document?  I have two

 7     pages in my version.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  There are two pages.  Which page would you call

 9     up?

10             MR. IVETIC:  Should be in the English, the first page.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which is on the screen.

12             MR. IVETIC:  That's the second page in my version.  Let me -- let

13     me just fast forward and ask about this part that is on the screen.  If

14     we can go back to the --

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, in English there is only one page.

16             MR. IVETIC:  I think I know what happened, so if we can go back

17     to the first page in B/C/S.

18        Q.   Sir, looking at this document now and I don't want to give your

19     details so I will read the section or direct your attention to the part

20     in the first paragraph where you talk about an encounter where a

21     gentleman came to visit you in the clinic and told you that he was there

22     on behalf of the 2nd Corps and that he worked with journalists, and that

23     he was wearing a black T-shirt with BH Army insignia, and he asked you to

24     give a statement that you had been shot in Karakaj, but you refused to do

25     that and told him you could not say that because you were not there.

Page 10878

 1             In relation to this incident and this statement, do you stand by

 2     what is written here as being truthful -- as being -- as being truthful

 3     and accurate as to the facts contained therein?

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness kindly not click with his

 5     holder.  Thank you.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

 7     continues] ... are not truthful.  Because the statement is incomplete.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Witness, you are requested not to click with

 9     your -- whatever you're holding there, if you are clicking.  I don't seem

10     to hear anything from your side.  But that's the request from the

11     interpreters.

12             MR. IVETIC:

13        Q.   And, sir, I believe ...

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, it does look like Mr. Mladic has got a

15     problem with his hearing-aid.

16                           [Defence counsel confer]

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Low voice.  Low voice, Mr. Mladic.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, our client says that he has had an

19     inability to get any translation on this headset.  Can we please --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Inability to get a translation on?

21             MR. IVETIC:  On the headset.  Oh, I apologise.  He asked me to

22     repeat the question because there was no translation for the answer that

23     was received.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do repeat the question then, Mr. Ivetic.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

Page 10879

 1        Q.   Now, again, I -- I wanted to direct your attention to the part of

 2     the first paragraph where you talk about an encounter where a gentleman

 3     came to visit you in the clinic and told you he was there on behalf of

 4     the 2nd Corps and that he work with journalists, and he was wearing a

 5     black T-shirt with BH Army insignia, and asked you to give a statement

 6     that you had been shot in Karakaj, but you refused to do so and told him

 7     that you could not do that because you were not there.

 8             In relation to this incident and this statement, do you stand by

 9     what is written here as being truthful and accurate as to the facts

10     contained therein?

11        A.   These facts are not truthful and accurate.

12        Q.   Sir, the original of this document is handwritten.  Do you

13     recognise the handwriting of this statement?  Or do you have personal

14     knowledge of who wrote it?

15        A.   This is my handwriting, and this was the statement that they

16     tried to make me do under coercion, and that is why I drafted it in this

17     way.

18        Q.   If you could provide some clarification for us.  Who is the

19     "they" that tried to make you do this statement under coercion?

20        A.   At that time, when Srebrenica fell, I was among the first who

21     came there as a survivor of shooting.  Due to that, I was very

22     interesting for all the journalists.  One day, when I went out into the

23     corridor of the hospital, there were many journalists, and one of them

24     wanted to talk to me.  The guard sent up someone to check whether I was

25     there or not, and later on, the journalists left.  One day later, they

Page 10880

 1     wanted to force me to give this statement, and I refused to do that under

 2     coercion, as is stated here.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put one question to the witness to clarify

 4     this matter.  Can you help me?  Was there somebody in the hospital asking

 5     you about an execution in Kladanj?  Did that happen, that somebody

 6     approached you in relation to that event in Kladanj?  In Karakaj, sorry.

 7     In Karakaj.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.  He asked me

 9     to make a statement, since I was in the garrison infirmary which was some

10     200 or 300 metres from the medical centre, and all the wounded from

11     Srebrenica were occupying one storey.  So it was part of the garrison

12     infirmary but nevertheless we were being treated there, and if necessary

13     we had to be taken to the Gradina medical centre.  The one who came and

14     approached me and asked for a statement, and I refused.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And you were asked by this person about an event

16     which happened in Karakaj; is that correct?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he asked me where it happened.

18     I wanted to avoid that, and I said in Karakaj.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You said in Karakaj.  What did you say in

20     Karakaj?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He asked me where I was shot, and I

22     replied in Karakaj.  And it is dated 31st of July.  I was already in such

23     a psychological state that some things may not be quite correct.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Why did you confirm that you have been in Karakaj

25     to this person?

Page 10881

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He simply gave me a piece of paper

 2     and asked me to write a statement.  And then he took it from me by force.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Was that this statement we see now on our

 4     screens?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I simply don't understand what you are saying at

 7     the moment.

 8             I see there the sentence, "He," this man who approached you, "He

 9     then told me to say that I had been in a group which had been shot in

10     Karakaj, but I refused that."

11             Now you are saying you didn't refuse.  Did I understand you

12     correctly?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, I signed this statement.

14     You can see my signature on the second page.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What did you say to this person who approached

16     you?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot remember what I said

18     on that occasion.  I was already in hospital in a psychological

19     condition, and all the people and journalists who came wanted to get

20     interviews from us.  And I refused to do that, to everybody.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If you look at the headline, I read there:

22             "I am giving the following statement about the announced visit of

23     journalists."

24             It is written in your handwriting.  Was it your idea to give this

25     original document you wrote with your own hands, to give this to the

Page 10882

 1     journalists, or to other people?  What was the idea when you wrote this

 2     down?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have any intention of

 4     giving any statement whatsoever, but I was rather forced by those who

 5     were securing the infirmary to make this statement.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  "They," you say "they."  What do you mean by

 7     "them"?  Are these the people with BH Army insignia?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  It was part of the garrison

 9     infirmary.  And he introduced himself as a security officer for the

10     infirmary.  I said I don't want to give any statement and he said I must

11     do it.  We argued about it.  He gave me a piece of paper.  I wrote on it,

12     signed it, and then he went out.  And now this paper also appears as a

13     document, and I also denied and refuted this statement in my previous

14     testimonies.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  For this clarification.

16             Mr. Ivetic.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I'd like to look at the testimony that

18     this witness refers to another case, but at this time I'd like to tender

19     this document, before we forget to do so, as the next available Defence

20     exhibit number, under seal.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam D'Ascoli?

22             MS. D'ASCOLI:  No objection, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Registrar, the document is admitted.  May it

24     please be given an exhibit number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D939 receives number D281,

Page 10883

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And it should be under seal.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Under seal.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Now I'd like to look at

 6     1D952, page 50 in e-court.  This is the testimony from the Popovic case

 7     that correlates to transcript page 3246.  And I'd like to look at

 8     number -- line number 1.

 9        Q.   And, sir, I would ask you to bear with me as I present to you the

10     testimony that is recorded here before asking you questions about it.

11     And now I begin:

12             "Q.  At the very beginning you will see that on the

13     27th of July, 1995, you were visited by a man who was brought by a nurse

14     and that he introduced himself to you as somebody representing the

15     2nd Corps that works with journalists.  Is that what you stated?  Is that

16     what you wrote?

17             "A.  Yes.

18             "Q.  You also stated that he wore a black shirt with the insignia

19     of the BiH army.  Can you see that in the next sentence two lines further

20     down?

21             "A.  Yes.  I can remember now.

22             "Q.  You can remember then.  And later on, you say that he told

23     you that you should provided a false testimony and say that you were

24     wounded in Karakaj.

25             "A.  No.  This was my Smajo Elezovic, and I didn't want to give

Page 10884

 1     him a statement and there was a conflict between him and me.

 2             "Q.  And that was the person who had visited you.  His name was

 3     Smajo Elezovic; is that correct?

 4             "A.  Yes."

 5             And, sir, in relation to this portion of the testimony that I

 6     read back to you, is it truthful and accurate as to the facts contained

 7     therein including the identity of the person who came to visit you in the

 8     black T-shirt with the insignia of the BH Army?

 9        A.   Yes, he was a security officer at the infirmary.

10        Q.   And did you know this gentleman before you came to the infirmary

11     or is it someone that you met while at the infirmary?

12        A.   That was the first time that I met him.  I hadn't known him

13     before.

14        Q.   Fair enough.  Now I want to move to another document that

15     predates your ICTY statement.  And again this one should not be

16     broadcast.  It is 1D940.  And I think we will see it is dated in -- dated

17     the 2nd of August, 1995.

18             And, first of all, sir, on the first page we see your name, and

19     can you confirm that the signature on the bottom of the original is, in

20     fact, your own?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And if we could turn to the last page of the document in both

23     versions.  Again, not broadcasting the same.  And, sir, can you confirm

24     that at the time that you signed this document that the text that is

25     above it, that says:

Page 10885

 1             "This is all I have to say.  The record was dictated to me aloud.

 2     Everything I said is in it, and I confirm it to be my own -- confirm it

 3     as my own by my signature."

 4             Do you confirm that that text was there when you signed this

 5     document?

 6        A.   What do you mean, was it there?  I gave this same statement to

 7     the basic court in Tuzla.  I was taken on crutches from the infirmary to

 8     give this statement, and this is the statement, in fact.  But there were

 9     some corrections as well that were made to this statement, and that was

10     immediately after the fall of Srebrenica.

11        Q.   And am I correct that the discussions with the investigative

12     judge that generated this statement were conducted in the Bosnian

13     language?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And did anyone pressure you or direct you to say things that were

16     not true or were not known by you for purposes of generating this

17     statement?

18        A.   There were certain things, not under coercion, but, rather, I was

19     asked about things that bore no relation to my case.

20        Q.   Okay.  And if we can look at the second page in both languages of

21     this document.  And, again, this should not be broadcast.

22             The first part has some significant detail, describing what is

23     referred to as the Serbian Chetnik aggressor launching an offensive

24     against Srebrenica and gives very detailed information about the precise

25     military movements of the Chetniks through various locales and then gives

Page 10886

 1     very detailed information about the military movements of UNPROFOR in the

 2     enclave.

 3             The question I have for you, sir, is:  Did you observe all of

 4     this and is it truthful and accurate?

 5        A.   No.  That was what I heard.

 6        Q.   And if you did not -- if you did not observe it yourselves, from

 7     who did you hear this material?  How did it get into this statement?

 8        A.   Well, there were people living in the villages around Srebrenica.

 9     They knew what was happening, and they were describing what was going on

10     up there.

11        Q.   Okay.  Did ... did you tell the investigative judge that this

12     information that is contained in this statement that you signed was not

13     something that you knew but came from other sources?

14        A.   Yes, that is correct.  It was all hearsay that was not anything

15     that I personally saw.

16        Q.   Now, you mentioned earlier that although you weren't coerced

17     there were some things that were not entirely accurate.  I would like to

18     address that with you by looking at your testimony in Popovic.  Again, if

19     we can have 1D952.  And again that was in open session, so we can -- we

20     don't have a problem with it.  And it should be page 33 of that document,

21     which correlates to transcript page 3229.

22             And, sir, I'd again, ask you to listen to the testimony that I

23     read back to you and so you get it in a language that you understand, and

24     I will have questions for you after it.

25             And I begin:

Page 10887

 1             "Q.  Sir, look at the sentence on the -- in the upper part where

 2     it says:  First they took up the UNPROFOR check-point at green Jadar, the

 3     UNPROFOR had withdrawn from there leaving the materiel and technical

 4     supplies.  That's why the army was forced to take up the position above

 5     the green Jadar and maintained it for a few days.  Do you remember that

 6     part of your statement given to the court in Tuzla?

 7             "A.  Maybe in a different forum.  This statement is full of

 8     mistakes.  I was hospitalised at the time and I was forced to give that

 9     statement, and these are not the only mistakes.  There are a lot of

10     things that I don't agree with in this statement.  I signed it there, but

11     I would like to answer other questions.

12             "Q.  Who forced you to give that statement?

13             "A.  The people who were in charge of collecting information from

14     the victims of war and from the survivors."

15             Sir, do you stand by and confirm this testimony of yours from the

16     Popovic case as being truthful and accurate as to the matters contained

17     therein, such that you would so testify today after having taken the

18     solemn declaration?

19        A.   Yes, they are correct.

20        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now I'd like to just briefly focus on the

21     time-period when you were mobilised.  As I understand it, from sometime

22     in 1992 to 1993 you do admit to being a member of the Territorial Defence

23     of the Bosnian Muslim armed forces in Srebrenica; is that correct?

24        A.   That was the Territorial Defence, and I was there until the

25     arrival of UNPROFOR.  I was in the Territorial Defence.

Page 10888

 1        Q.   During that time-period that you were a member of the

 2     Territorial Defence prior to the arrival of UNPROFOR, did you have

 3     occasion to take any oaths or swear any oaths to the commanders of that

 4     armed formation?

 5        A.   No.  Not me.

 6        Q.   Fair enough.  Now I'd like to move to ask you some clarification

 7     of the incidents that you -- you say occurred at the Jadar river.

 8             In -- if we can -- again, not to be displayed to the public.  But

 9     if we can have the statement P1435, marked for identification, on the

10     screen.  And I would be interested in page 6 in the English, the last

11     paragraph, and page 6 in the B/C/S.  It should be the third

12     paragraph from the top.

13             And now, sir, again, in B/C/S, it is the third paragraph from the

14     top of this page.  In English, it should be the last paragraph.  And here

15     you describe, sir, that when these men, these four -- pardon me, these

16     men when they started shooting, that you describe a bullet going through

17     your hip and you fell down.  And I want to ask you, sir, prior to the

18     shooting started, did you at any time hear anyone give any instruction or

19     order to begin shooting?

20        A.   No.  While we were held at the warehouse, we were just told to

21     get dressed.  They put us on buses, took us to Kuslete [phoen].  There

22     they lined us up next to the guardrail, and then one of the soldiers said

23     to another one, Not there, let them go down.  Then we went down to the

24     river, some 15 to 20 metres, where we were lined up and that's when the

25     shooting began.

Page 10889

 1        Q.   And these persons that were shooting at you, sir, I take it they

 2     were using rifles, infantry rifles?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23             And may the Chamber please move into private session.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 10890











11 Page 10890 redacted. Private session.















Page 10891

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Closed session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we adjourn, Mr. Ivetic, how much more time

Page 10892

 1     do you still need?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Looking at my outline, Your Honours, I believe 50 or

 3     55 minutes should suffice.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  That's in the first hour -- in the first

 5     session tomorrow.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We stand adjourned to Thursday, the 9th of

 8     May, 2013, in the same courtroom, at 9.30 in the morning.

 9             Court adjourned -- Mr. McCloskey?  Oh.

10             Court adjourned.

11                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 9th day of May,

13                           2013, at 9.30 a.m.