Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11250

 1                           Tuesday, 21 May 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 9     number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             The Chamber was informed that the Prosecution wanted to raise a

12     preliminary matter.

13             Mr. McCloskey.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours,

15     everyone.

16             Yes, Mr. President, as you know the next witness is

17     Colonel Mirko Trivic, and I wanted you to know we had to take your advice

18     on his 92 ter statement.  I was able to get it down to 56 pages but --

19     actually 52 if you take the redacted.  So we did get it down to 52.  I

20     also noted that we failed to mention to you that he had while testifying

21     initially as a Prosecution witness in the Blagojevic trial, he came back

22     as a Defence expert in the Blagojevic trial and so he is one of our

23     adverse witnesses and -- though we are not asking for a caution to be

24     read.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  No caution to be read to him.  You don't think that

Page 11251

 1     there is any need for that.  Then I think at this moment the Chamber has

 2     no reasons to deviate from that proposition.  If that would become

 3     different, we'll find out.

 4             Nothing else, Mr. McCloskey.

 5             Then could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Trivic.  Before you give evidence,

 8     the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration the text of which is

 9     now handed out to you.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Thank you.

11             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

12     and nothing but the truth.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Trivic.

14                           WITNESS: MIRKO TRIVIC

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll first be examined by Mr. McCloskey.  You find

18     him to your right and Mr. McCloskey is counsel for the Prosecution.

19             Please proceed.

20                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

21        Q.   Good morning, sir.  Can you tell us your name, please?

22        A.   Good morning.  My name is Mirko Trivic.

23        Q.   And welcome back to this Tribunal.

24        A.   Thank you.

25        Q.   And, Colonel, have you been able to review your testimony from

Page 11252

 1     the Popovic case as a Prosecution witness?  It was back in May 2007.

 2        A.   Yes.  I listened to that statement of mine and basically I did

 3     understand that.  Even six years later I have nothing to add to it.

 4        Q.   If you were asked the same questions now, would your answers

 5     substantially be the same?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes.  The essence of my answers would be the same.  Maybe

 7     some of the questions -- or, rather, some of the terms used in your

 8     questions or in my answers -- maybe, actually, it would have been

 9     necessary to say a bit more or to be more specific in my answers in order

10     to give an answer that would be clearer from a substantive point of view.

11        Q.   And was your testimony in that case true and correct to the best

12     of your knowledge?

13        A.   Yes.  In that case and in other cases.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I would offer 65 ter 28902 into

15     evidence.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, I will not object since the witness is

17     here, but I would leave it to your discretion whether to accept this form

18     of a witness's statement, whether it's in accordance your guidances or

19     not.  So I leave it to your discretion.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of objections and using our

22     discretion, the Chamber admits into evidence the testimony -- the

23     transcript of the previous testimony of the witness.

24             Mr. Registrar, the number would be.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  P1463, Your Honours.

Page 11253

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What's the 65 ter number?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The 65 ter number was read out, I think, by

 5     Mr. McCloskey, and may I take it that that's the reduced version of

 6     the --

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, the one that's in e-court, 28902.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And may I read a brief summary.  I have explained

12     to the witness about this.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Colonel Trivic was born in 1949 in the

15     municipality of Bosanska Gradiska, present day Republika Srpska.  He is a

16     career army officer.  After secondary school, he enrolled in the military

17     academy of the former Yugoslavia in Belgrade and graduated in 1971.  From

18     1971 to 1988 he served in various JNA garrisons in Slovenia.  In 1988 he

19     became a teacher of military tactics at the military academy.

20             In 1993 he joined the VRS and was appointed the Chief of Staff of

21     the Guards Brigade, a unit of the Main Staff of the VRS.  In 1994 he was

22     appointed commander of the 2nd Romanija Brigade of the Drina Corps,

23     taking over from then Colonel Krstic who had been promoted to Chief of

24     Staff of the Drina Corps.  Trivic was promoted to colonel in January

25     1995.

Page 11254

 1             In early July 1995, he received orders from the Drina Corps to

 2     take part in Krivaja 95, the VRS operation concerning the Srebrenica

 3     enclave.

 4             Colonel Trivic and elements of his brigade took part in the

 5     attack on Srebrenica beginning 6 July.  By 11 July he and the other VRS

 6     officers and units were able to enter Srebrenica town where he met

 7     briefly with General Mladic and received orders from him.

 8             On 12 July he met with General Krstic in the area of Viogor and

 9     received orders to go to Bratunac Brigade headquarters at 2100 hours for

10     a meeting there.  He travelled to the Bratunac headquarters that evening

11     and met with other brigade commanders from the operation, as well as

12     General Mladic.  General Mladic announced that Zepa would be the next

13     operation and the troops would begin their march to the Zepa area the

14     next day, 13 July.

15             On the morning of 13 July, he was present with his unit in the

16     area of Viogor where General Mladic spoke to the units before their march

17     towards Zepa.  Colonel Trivic departed himself toward Zepa on the

18     afternoon of 13 July in the direction of Bratunac, Konjevic Polje,

19     Milici, towards Zepa.  And the colonel was wounded in the Zepa operation.

20             And if I could ask some questions, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so, Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:

23        Q.   Colonel, did you receive a preparatory order to get troops ready

24     for the Srebrenica operation in early July 1995?

25        A.   Yes.  In the beginning of July 1995 from the Drina Corps

Page 11255

 1     commander.  The 2nd Romanija Brigade was given the task to set up a

 2     reinforced company equivalent unit and to be prepared for engagement --

 3        Q.   Colonel --

 4        A.   -- in an operation --

 5        Q.   Colonel, I'm sorry to interrupt you but I'm going to go briefly

 6     to that document and so you'll be able to answer my questions, but we

 7     need to be very specific, myself -- or you may be interrupted if you go

 8     too far into it.  You can always explain your answer but my time is

 9     limited.  So okay.  You've got the order.  Let's now go to that order.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And it should be Exhibit 65 ter 04096.

11        Q.   And did I give you a copy of this order last night to take a look

12     at?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   All right.  And so if we look at this, we can see that there is a

15     stamp from the Zvornik Light Infantry Brigade, but can you tell us is

16     this a genuine copy of an order you actually received?

17        A.   Last night I took a look at this copy.  I don't have the original

18     in order to compare.  I assume that that is the document.  That it's

19     faithful to the original, that is.

20        Q.   So you did get an original document like this in July 1995?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Okay.  And we see in the top of it there are "to the commands of"

23     and there are abbreviations for the various brigades.  And we have a

24     translation of that in the English.  And I am hoping you would clear

25     something up.  We see the 2nd Rmtbr.  Is that your brigade, the

Page 11256

 1     2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade?

 2        A.   Yes, that is the 2nd Rmtbr.  "2 R" means "Romanija" and then

 3     Motorised Brigade.

 4        Q.   And then we see also the 1st and 5th Plpbr.  Does that mean

 5     Podrinje Light Infantry Brigades?

 6        A.   I think so.  That would be the name of those light infantry

 7     brigades, like the Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade.

 8        Q.   And do you remember, was the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade,

 9     what -- what city was that associated with?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Does Rogatica sound familiar?

12        A.   Yes.  But I don't know which unit was where, which unit with what

13     designation, but there were two light Podrinje infantry brigades.

14        Q.   And one was Rogatica and one was Visegrad?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Okay.  I don't want to spend a lot of time with this preparatory

17     order, but we see that in paragraph 1 it describes the intentions of the

18     Muslim army where it says at the bottom of that paragraph:

19             "At the same time their forces from the enclaves of Srebrenica

20     and Zepa will act in order to cut the Drina Corps area of responsibility

21     in two and connect the enclaves with the central part of which is held by

22     the Muslims."

23             We couldn't read all of that.  Do you see at the bottom of

24     that -- can you read it, but it says:

25             "... connect the enclaves with the central part."

Page 11257

 1             Can you read that last sentence for us, if you could make it out.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could blow it up.

 3        Q.   It's that first big paragraph under number 1.  When it says: "...

 4     connect the ..." --

 5        A.   [Overlapping speakers].

 6        Q.   I'm sorry.

 7        A.   You mean, "The last three months..."?  Is that what you mean,

 8     from there onwards?

 9        Q.   Where it says:  "Drina Corps area of responsibility in two ..."

10     Just the last two sentences of that second paragraph.

11        A.   In order to have an entire sentence, I would like to start from

12     where it says:  "The 5th light Podrinje Brigade ..."  And it says:

13             "It is to be expected that the enemy will launch an even heavier

14     offensive of activities in the Kladanj and Olovo area.  At the same time,

15     their forces from the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa will act in order

16     to cut the Drina Corps area of responsibility in two and connect the

17     enclaves with the central part of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina which is

18     held by the Muslims."

19             BH is what it says there and that is an abbreviation for

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21        Q.   Thank you.  The next numbered paragraph it says:

22             "The command of the Drina Corps pursuant to operation Directive

23     number 7 and 7/1 of the main staff ..."

24             Did you receive the Main Staff Directive number 7 and 7/1?

25        A.   I think I did not receive Directive number 7 because that was

Page 11258

 1     written by the Supreme Command.  Also, Directive 7/1 which is written by

 2     the Main Staff.  I think it was sent only to corps level, to the corps

 3     command.  So the command of the brigade -- the command of any brigade,

 4     mine or others, did not receive directives as documents.  Rather, what

 5     the command regulates on the basis of obligations set in the directives,

 6     and they spell them out in operational terms and send tasks to their

 7     subordinates on the basis of the task defined and the way in which these

 8     tasks will be carried out and so on.

 9        Q.   All right.  And after this preparatory order, did you receive an

10     actual operations order?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And let's go to 65 ter 04097.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me, while we still

14     have the document on our screens, there is something that I seem to

15     remember from the first item in this document that was on our screens.

16     Allow me, please.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   Colonel, I'm --

19        A.   You said something.  I'd like --

20        Q.   I'm sorry --

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   If you need to explain your answer, go ahead.  But remember you

23     are not here just to explain.  There needs to be question and answer.

24        A.   Just in relation to the question.  You said something that is not

25     the essence of the content of the first paragraph of combat documents and

Page 11259

 1     orders.  In the first paragraph there is an assessment, an estimate of

 2     what the enemy is doing.  It is not a position that is being stated;

 3     namely, that that is exactly what the enemy is going to be doing, that

 4     and nothing else.  That's the only thing I wanted to say.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, I would like to offer that

 7     document, 04096 into evidence.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  No objections.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  P1464, Your Honours.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P1464 is it already is evidence.  That's how it was

12     announced, isn't it?  Oh, no, it's not in evidence yet.  It is now hereby

13     admitted into evidence, P1464.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could now go to the next document, the

15     actual operations order, which is 65 ter 04097, and I see it's up there.

16        Q.   And we can see here that the list of the brigades involved in the

17     order is slightly smaller than the list that went out to the operations

18     group.  Is this deliberate?

19        A.   Please, I don't want to give any explanations but I would like to

20     say why I think that is the case in my view.  It was sent to all the

21     units of the Drina Corps, the preparatory order, so that they would have

22     some of their forces on the ready for some planned activity in the

23     forthcoming period.  After consultations, and obviously the assessment

24     that was made by the corps command, regarding the necessities involved in

25     carrying out that attack, they came to the position that it was only

Page 11260

 1     necessary that this was to be sent only to these units.  And then further

 2     on, this order for active operations was sent to this unit only on the

 3     basis of estimated needs in relation to what all the brigades were

 4     expecting.  They expected that part of their forces would be engaged.

 5        Q.   All right.  And does this -- is this an order you actually

 6     received yourself?

 7        A.   There is no reason for me to express any doubts, and I think that

 8     that was the order received.

 9        Q.   And I gave you a copy of that last night to review as well,

10     correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   All right.  And now we see from the beginning of this order, and

13     I don't want to read it all out, but in paragraph 1 the order is

14     describing that the enemy, the Muslim army, has carried out attacks with

15     a limited objectives against the Drina Corps units.  And that in the

16     coming period they expect other attacks.  And as we read it, by the 28th

17     Division, from the enclave of Srebrenica and Zepa in order to cut the

18     Drina Corps area in two and connect the enclaves with the central part of

19     the territory of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20             It goes on then to describe in the next big paragraph that the

21     Muslim forces from the enclave of Zepa and Srebrenica have been

22     particularly active, that they were sabotage groups that were attacking

23     and burning unprotected villages, killing civilians, and small isolated

24     units around the enclaves of Zepa and Srebrenica.  And that they are

25     trying especially hard to link up the enclaves and open a corridor to

Page 11261

 1     Kladanj.  Then it describes what the various units of the 28th Division

 2     are and it describes information on them which I -- which I won't go

 3     through.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could go to the page 3 in the English and

 5     it's paragraph 2 in the B/C/S.  Numbered paragraph 2.  It may be the

 6     third page of the B/C/S as well.  It should be -- yes, that's it.  Thank

 7     you.

 8        Q.   And looking at this numbered paragraph 2, we again see this

 9     reference that now:

10             "The command of the Drina Corps, pursuant to operations Directive

11     7 and 7/1 of the Main Staff ..."

12             Now, can you tell us, General [sic], what was the objective of

13     this operation that we are looking at, Krivaja 95?

14        A.   Thank you for promoting me.  I'm a colonel, not a general.

15        Q.   Pardon me.

16        A.   The Drina Corps command formulated the task based on these

17     directives as I have said in the answer to your first question, and this

18     was all based on the preparatory order.  The goal was to use the

19     available forces for an offensive, and it was defined as an order for

20     active combat activities.  Further, the objective was to separate the

21     enclaves Zepa and Srebrenica in the depth of the territory, and this is

22     how they set out to accomplish this objective.

23        Q.   Aside from splitting the two enclaves, was there another

24     objective?

25        A.   Narrowing.  Narrowing them down by separating them, by splitting

Page 11262

 1     the enclaves.  The physical process was actually squeezing the units and

 2     narrowing the area that they had under their control, the enemy forces.

 3     The area from which they conducted activities in various forms.  They

 4     were not planned offensive activities of the entire 28th Division but

 5     rather they used various brigades in various sectors and some favorable

 6     positions to carry out small attacks, sabotage activities --

 7        Q.   All right, Colonel.

 8        A.   -- minor incursions and the like.

 9        Q.   And we can actually see here in the last sentence of paragraph 2:

10             "In order to split the enclaves of Zepa and Srebrenica and to

11     reduce them to their urban areas."

12             So this reduction you are talking about is to reduce the size of

13     the enclave to that urban area of Srebrenica and that urban area of Zepa,

14     correct?

15        A.   I have to admit that if we are to strictly interpret this, then

16     this wouldn't cover Zepa because Zepa was really not a town.  It was a

17     village, a small village.  So reducing this to the area that belonged to

18     Srebrenica municipality, if I may be a bit more clear, this was to be

19     within the observation points of the United Nations so that they wouldn't

20     be leaving that area.  This was to be the area that was to be the town of

21     Srebrenica from 1993.

22        Q.   I won't argue with you, Colonel, but we see here very clearly

23     written:

24             "In order to split apart the enclaves of Zepa and Srebrenica and

25     to reduce them to their urban area ..."

Page 11263

 1             Urban does not include the vast and very wooded and rural

 2     municipality of Srebrenica, does it?

 3        A.   I agree with you that this term "urban" was inappropriately used

 4     here, awkwardly used here, but let us go back to how it functioned in

 5     1995.  The enclave of Srebrenica and the enclave of Zepa.  In 1993 both

 6     enclaves were defined and those were their defined areas.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Now let's go down under paragraph 4 which you should be

 8     able to see.  And under -- it's basically the second paragraph under

 9     paragraph 4, and it gives us a title: "Objective." And it says:

10             "By a surprise attack to separate and reduce in size the

11     Srebrenica and Zepa enclaves, to improve the tactical positions of the

12     forces in the depth of the area, and to create conditions for the

13     elimination of the enclaves."

14             So one of the other objectives that you didn't mention was to

15     create the conditions for the actual elimination of the enclaves; is that

16     right?

17        A.   I haven't mentioned that.  It is true.  It's not mentioned in

18     item 2, in paragraph 2 -- or, rather, in paragraph 2 they speak of the

19     task and then under 4, where they discuss objective, they say "separate

20     and reduce and create conditions for the elimination of the enclaves."  I

21     wish to comment on this given that you deepened further your question.

22             The separation of the enclaves and reduction to the area as it

23     was defined in the resolutions establishing them is that improve the

24     tactical position of the units of the Drina Corps and created conditions

25     for activities which, in this order, order for activities, were not

Page 11264

 1     envisioned.  Nobody was issued the task of eliminating the enclaves.

 2     Simply by successfully implementing this order one would create

 3     conditions that in some other situation, having assessed the enemy forces

 4     positions and so on, would enable forces to perhaps continue with another

 5     task.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Trivic, we are not here to hear the exegesis of

 7     the documents.  If you have any facts you could mention which support

 8     your interpretation of the document, we'd like to hear that and otherwise

 9     the Chamber will interpret the documentary evidence in the totality of

10     the evidence.

11             Are there any facts known to you which support your

12     interpretation which seems to be slightly not fully consistent with the

13     language of the order?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for guiding me in giving

15     my answers.  This order, Mr. President, is the order for active combat

16     activities.  In item 4, they define the objective of those activities.

17     And the end objective was to carry out that assignment, to separate the

18     enclaves, and by achieving that objective they simply added that that

19     would create the conditions for eliminating the enclaves.  I did not put

20     in any new elements in giving my interpretation of the text.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You may not have fully understood my guidance.

22             Next question, please, Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   Colonel, did something come up in the next few days that changed

25     this limited attack order and actually include a further objective that

Page 11265

 1     you became aware of?

 2        A.   Yes.  Precisely so.  When they began activities pursuant to this

 3     order, conditions were created for changing the objectives and the

 4     directions of the attack.  In two days before they entered into

 5     Srebrenica, they amended the tasks given to battalions and units which

 6     participated in the offensive pursuant to this order, and it was only on

 7     the 11th based on the conditions that were created and pursuant to the

 8     permission to enter the enclave, that they entered the enclave and the

 9     enclave ceased to exist.

10             However, the conditions were not created solely by the combat

11     activities of two or three battalions participating pursuant to this

12     order but also by the enemy who contributed to these conditions by

13     deserting the positions and opening up the passage into Srebrenica.

14        Q.   All right.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we go to 65 ter 04024.  This is a 9

16     July document that -- oh, and I would like to - I'm sorry, Your Honour -

17     offer that previous 04097 into evidence.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic is supposed to remain seated.

19             Mr. Mladic, remain seated, as I said before.  Sit down.

20             Mr. Lukic, any objections.

21             MR. LUKIC:  No objections, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  P1465, Your Honours.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  P1465 is admitted into evidence.

25             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

Page 11266

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, yes, if we could have 65 ter 04024 on the --

 2     there it is in the English.  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Now, Colonel, we can see that this is not to any brigades.  In

 4     fact, it's to the president of the Republika Srpska and the Drina Corps

 5     forward command post, General Gvero and Krstic personally from

 6     General Tolimir.  And we see that what Tolimir says in this paragraph

 7     beginning:

 8             "The president of Republika Srpska has been informed of

 9     successful combat operations around Srebrenica by units of the Drina

10     Corps and that they have achieved results which enable them to occupy the

11     very town of Srebrenica."

12             Now, does this change anything?  Does this have anything to do

13     with what you are talking about?  As we go on and read it, it basically

14     gives the go ahead to go into Srebrenica but abide by the Geneva

15     Conventions about property and civilians.  How does this fit into your

16     previous answers?

17        A.   This is a logical continuation of the events which took place

18     between the 6th and the 9th, but mostly on the 9th.  A sequence of steps

19     which represent a textbook example of how command and reporting functions

20     through the units of the Drina Corps to the Main Staff and up to the

21     Supreme Commander, where they report on the activities of some units.  I

22     suppose that assistant commander General Tolimir informed about the

23     results of the activities.  On the 9th of July, he reported to the

24     president of the republic.  Well, to the Supreme Commander but first and

25     foremost to the minister of defence, and then based on the feedback

Page 11267

 1     pursuant to that report, he was sending information to the forward

 2     command post of the Drina Corps by send -- but also sent a similar

 3     document for information of the president of the republic.

 4             So Tolimir sent this document to the Drina Corps forward command

 5     post informing that the approval was given and making an assessment that

 6     the access to Srebrenica was open by eliminating the enclave, that there

 7     was no major opposition, the permission to enter was given.  And there is

 8     also a caution given about the civilians, civilian population and forces

 9     that are mentioned here.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I just ask for one clarification, Mr. Trivic.

11     You said:

12             "Well, he reported to the president of the --" it's -- in the

13     transcript it is not correct.

14             "Well, to the Supreme Command, but first and foremost to the

15     minister of defence."

16             Please, can you help me, to show where I can find that in the

17     document, that he reported to the minister of defence?  Where can I find

18     it in this document?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I tried to reply to the question

20     posed by Mr. McCloskey; namely, whether this document reflects what I

21     said earlier about the task and the conditions for eliminating the

22     enclaves.  I tried to reply by trying to explain about who was informed

23     on the 9th about the results achieved and conditions created, who was

24     informed by the staff, and that this was the logical path of reporting.

25     They had to report that the Drina Corps was achieving results which

Page 11268

 1     created conditions --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Overlapping speakers]

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- as a result of which permission

 4     was given to enter Srebrenica.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to stop you here.  Please help me,

 6     was this letter signed by Mr. Tolimir sent to the minister of defence --

 7     to the Ministry of Defence or was it -- was this information given by

 8     other means?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will try to clarify.

10     This is a cable that was sent on the 9th.  It was marked "very urgent."

11     It was sent to two locations.  This cable was sent to two locations:  To

12     the president of republic for his information and to the forward command

13     post of the Drina Corps as the document containing a position that had to

14     be implemented, that had to be carried out.  It was sent for the

15     information only to the president of the republic to inform him --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is well understood.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- about --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is well understood.  Please help me to

19     understand why you said it was sent to the Ministry of Defence.  Where

20     can I find it?  I am only interested in this.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can't find it in this document.

22     However, the minister of defence is a specialised professional person via

23     whom documents are transmitted to the president of the republic.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

25             Mr. McCloskey.

Page 11269

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  I would offer this 04024 into

 2     evidence.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  No objections.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  P1466, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   Now, Colonel, I want to take you briefly to 11 July where we know

10     that the VRS, General Mladic, and others, were able to go into Srebrenica

11     town.  And do you recall seeing yourself on video greeting General Mladic

12     in Srebrenica town on the 11th of July?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Okay.  And we have all seen that.  I don't think we need to spend

15     the time to go through that.  And it's clearly identified in the stills

16     book.  Did you -- do you recall hearing General Mladic on the radio that

17     day talking about air strikes?

18        A.   Yes.  Your question was on the radio.  It wasn't on the radio, it

19     was in the communications system that existed between the units taking

20     part in this operation.  It was on the radio communications system.

21        Q.   And what did you hear General Mladic say?

22        A.   That taking advantage of his presence at the forward command post

23     of the Drina Corps, General Mladic sent out a circular memo to all units

24     taking part in this operation saying that the NATO air strikes were

25     expected.

Page 11270

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, nodding yes or no to whomever is not

 2     permitted.  That could be understood as comments on testimony given, so

 3     you should refrain from doing these kind of things.  And you know what

 4     the consequences are if you continue.

 5             I thought, Mr. Lukic, that Mr. Mladic was seeking a consultation

 6     at a moment ago, but perhaps if that could wait for five minutes then you

 7     have an opportunity to do it during the break.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   And did General Mladic say this before any air strikes had

11     occurred?

12        A.   Yes.  As I have said, he sent out a circular memo to all

13     commanders, all units taking part in these activities, warning them that

14     there was an estimate that there could be a NATO air strikes on the

15     forces in that area.  So he announced that possibility.

16        Q.   Now, Colonel, you're going to get us in trouble.  That was a very

17     simple question and required a simple answer.  You can always explain but

18     remember our time, as is the Defence's, is limited.

19             Okay.  So now in your statement we know that the night of the

20     11th you go back to your command post where you were staying at Jasenova

21     and that on the 12th of July you were involved in a sweep operation, and

22     that General Krstic tells you to go to a meeting on the evening of the

23     12th of July at the Bratunac headquarters; is that correct, roughly?

24        A.   Yes.  Those were the activities in the course of that day.  I

25     think in one of the earlier answers to your questions concerning the

Page 11271

 1     sweeping operation, I asked that the term "sweep operation" for the 12th

 2     not be used because on the 12th it was a continuation of the offensive

 3     activities which ended up in chasing, chasing enemy forces.  That's what

 4     we were doing.

 5        Q.   Thank you for clarifying that.  And did you make -- did you have

 6     a wartime diary where you filled out some events and thoughts as you went

 7     along at the time?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we now go to 65 ter 25860.  It should

10     be page 25 in e-court.

11        Q.   And, Colonel, I'm just jumping to the 12 July entry.  We see

12     that's the front of your little ringed binder on the left.  And if we

13     could go to page 25.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It should be 25 in both languages.  And if we

15     could blow those up a bit.

16        Q.   And I don't want to spend time on this one.  I just wanted to

17     show that we've written -- excuse me, you've written 0900 hours, 12 July,

18     and some notes there that we can read.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now let's go to the next page in both.

20        Q.   All right.  And are we still on 12 July here, Colonel?

21        A.   Could you put back the previous page, please, so I can see the

22     page number?

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could go back in the B/C/S.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Number 12.  And the second

25     page -- I mean, I just want to confirm what I said.  It's not a sweep

Page 11272

 1     operation.  It's just that the attack should be continued along certain

 2     axes.  Now we can move onto the other page.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I have a few minutes on this diary

 4     but I see it's break time.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And you said a few minutes on this diary.  And is

 6     that all?

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No.  It's almost all but it's --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then if it's not all, then we'll take the break

 9     first.

10             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

11             We take a break and will resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Colonel, I want to go on to the next page in the -- in the diary.

20     And then now -- as we are still on the 12th, so let's go to the next

21     page.  Now -- all right.

22             Now here is a reference that you've scratched down that the

23     brigade commanders are to come to the Drina Corps IKM in Bratunac by 2100

24     hours via Srebrenica and Potocari.  And did you actually go that evening

25     at 2100 hours to the Bratunac Brigade?

Page 11273

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And then you note that General Mladic came at 2200 hours; is that

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   He arrived at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters at 2200 hours?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And we see here that it says in the English:

 8             "By 0800 hours tomorrow, General Kostic must prepare a

 9     decision ..."

10             Which general should that be?

11        A.   General Krstic.

12        Q.   All right.  And there is also a note -- we see that -- who

13     ordered General Krstic to prepare a decision to go to Zepa?

14        A.   General Mladic.

15        Q.   All right.  And there is a note here that Vinko Pandurevic and I

16     warned him that the soldiers should rest.  And you and now Pandurevic

17     warned who that the soldiers should rest?

18        A.   Here in my text it says "made aware of," regardless of the fact

19     that Vinko Pandurevic and I made him aware of.  So it wasn't

20     "upgrozali," [phoen] it was "upoznali" [phoen].  It was misread.  So

21     although he was made aware of that, he issues an order that

22     General Krstic carry out the decision to free Zepa the next day and so

23     on.

24        Q.   All right.  And --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, could the transcription be verified

Page 11274

 1     for this page.  We have now a second where the witness comments on it.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Krstic, Kostic, and --

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We will get the revision to look at that.  That's

 5     important, thank you.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I would offer this document 65 ter 25860.

 9     There is just a section.  It's in the English so it's not too long, and I

10     think it should all go in.  I think there is -- it would assist the Trial

11     Chamber.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We've looked at a few pages.  I see in e-court it's

13     a 76-page document, if I'm correct.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let me then -- I didn't think we had that many in

15     English.  We're perhaps --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, sometimes perhaps they are short, but I see at

17     least 76 -- 67 --

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Then --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No, 76 pages, I apologise, in e-court.  I suggest

20     the following.  That it will be marked for identification.  That you do

21     two things:  First of all to further select the portions you need or

22     explain why we need the whole of the document in evidence; and second,

23     that you verify the transcription of the pages you used.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I was not aware that

25     it was that long.  We'll only -- we'll get together, but I think it's

Page 11275

 1     just July we are interested in.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I do not object to the portions used during the trial

 3     since it's obvious that things have to be explained, but we would object

 4     to anything that's not used today in the trial.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, unless we could foresee that it will be used

 6     soon and what pages will be used, then perhaps.  But as matters stand

 7     now, the document will be MFI'd.

 8             Mr. Registrar, the document now still 76 pages would receive

 9     number?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  P1467, Your Honours.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

12             And when do we hear from you, Mr. McCloskey?  Is it within the

13     next week?

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Tomorrow.  All I will want is the Srebrenica

15     operation notes and that will be very limited, and they actually go along

16     with his testimony and I think will be valuable for the Trial Chamber and

17     it won't be anywhere near 76 pages.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But what I see apparently is that the English

19     is consistent with the original because the original is also 76 pages.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

22        Q.   Just lastly, Colonel, and related to you and Colonel Pandurevic

23     making General Mladic aware that the soldiers needed rest, I want to go

24     to something you said in your Popovic testimony.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's P1463, e-court 40.

Page 11276

 1        Q.   And I'll read it slowly in English because we don't have a

 2     Serbian for you.  But it's on that same topic where you and

 3     Colonel Pandurevic are talking with Mladic that evening about the men

 4     needing rest, and I think you -- he then agrees to come to Viogor the

 5     next morning to give them a talk which is in your statement.  I won't go

 6     over that.

 7             But I want to just read you something, and you may remember when

 8     Mr. Thayer asked you this as you were explaining the question, he goes,

 9     this is Mr. Thayer's question to you:

10             "Well, sir, in response to being overruled, did you or

11     Colonel Pandurevic make any suggestions to Generals Krstic and Mladic?"

12             And your answer was:

13             "We were not out-voted.  It's not right to put it that way.  It

14     is the unquestionable right of the commander to make decisions.  We tried

15     to suggest that this part of the troops that had been involved in the

16     operations thus far..." and that they take a rest.

17             Can you explain to us what you meant when you say that it is the

18     unquestionable right of the commander to make the decisions, suggesting

19     it's not to a vote?  What -- is that a military principle you can explain

20     briefly to us?

21        A.   Well, I assume that this Court, since it has been dealing with

22     the question of warfare for so long and has been investigating what

23     happened from different angles but is primarily dealing with combat

24     operations, military matters, and so on, it must have come to the

25     conclusion that I have already referred to.  There is no voting and

Page 11277

 1     out-voting.  It wasn't a debate.  It is the commander's right to say,

 2     "All right.  All of that is well and fine what you said, but ..." I think

 3     that in one of my statements in one of the cases, I did say that --

 4     explaining the reasons why soldiers needed some rest, I said it's not

 5     about the commander accepting or not accepting something.  A motive also

 6     had to be found for staying on under such conditions, and then when such

 7     a decision is made which is undeniably the right of the commander who

 8     said that this should be taken advantage of, this moment of success, that

 9     this morale should be carried through and the second enclave should be

10     taken care of as well.  Then he insisted that he come and state that

11     personally because when he personally speaks to the soldiers, then they

12     can endure in spite of these problems that cropped up over those 15 days

13     or so that they spent in the field in different conditions without

14     anything comfortable about it and so.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Trivic, you might not have understood the

16     question.  What Mr. McCloskey would like to know is whether it is a

17     military rule that if the higher in command decides, even if that is not

18     in line what was advised to him by his subordinate officers, that only

19     the decision of the commander is what counts.  Is that -- I think that is

20     what Mr. McCloskey wanted to know.  Is that your position?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is my position, but both

22     for Mr. McCloskey and you, you do oversimplify relations within a

23     command.  There is no discussion there.  I mean, a subordinate can say:

24     "Sorry, I think that we should wait, that we should not set out."  But

25     it's for the commander to say: "All right.  We have to complete this

Page 11278

 1     mission as soon as possible, and as soon as this is over then we can get

 2     some rest."  But there is no discussion there as far as combat operations

 3     are concerned.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The answer is clear.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  That was my last

 7     question.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  In fact, it was my last question.  No, no, no,

 9     Mr. McCloskey is --

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  You got it just right.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.

12             Mr. Lukic, are you ready to cross-examine Mr. Trivic?

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I am, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Trivic, you will now be cross-examined by

15     Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Let me just unpack, if you will.

18             Good day, Mr. Trivic.

19        A.   Good day.

20        Q.   In this stage of the Tribunal, our time is rather limited as

21     you've seen when you were answering the Prosecutor's questions, and we

22     have quite a few things to deal with with you, so please let us be as

23     specific as possible so that we can cover as much material as possible in

24     terms of everything that we have prepared because we would like to take

25     advantage of your experience and your knowledge of things as they

Page 11279

 1     happened.  Also, we have to bear in mind the fact that our questions and

 2     answers should not overlap because we speak the same language.

 3        A.   Thank you, I'll bear that in mind.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P1464.  That is what I would like to

 5     start with today.  It was used by the Prosecutor as well.

 6        Q.   We'll see the document in a moment.  You gave your comments today

 7     with regard to this document, and this is what I'd like to ask you.  This

 8     preparatory order of the 2nd of July, 1995, does it deal with the enemy's

 9     offensive actions primarily in the spring of 1995?

10        A.   Well, in view of the content of the first paragraph, one may

11     infer that that the estimate was -- not only estimate but also there is

12     an analysis of what happened in the spring of 1995 in that area.  And

13     there is a reference to operations that were carried out in villages

14     around the enclaves and also the deployment of defence positions of

15     brigades that did hold position vis-a-vis these enclaves.  One may

16     conclude that this is an analysis on the basis of which this order was

17     written, including the tasks involved.

18        Q.   Thank you.  On the ground, did you see and feel these offensive

19     activities of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20        A.   Yes, but I have to say that the brigade that I commanded, that I

21     headed, did not hold positions vis-a-vis the enclaves but in other areas

22     towards Kladanj, Olovo.  There weren't any major operations but there

23     were some attempts to break through the positions that were held by my

24     brigade, but I did not feel that there were incursions out of the

25     enclaves.

Page 11280

 1        Q.   At the time were you informed in the field that attempts were

 2     being made to cut Republika Srpska into two and to link up the enclaves

 3     with the rest of the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   The areas that are referred to as areas where the enemy is

 6     carrying out offensive operations are areas that are covered by the

 7     2nd Krajina Corps, the Sarajevo Corps, the Drina Corps, the Eastern

 8     Bosnian Corps.  Those are the corps of the Army of Republika Srpska; is

 9     that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Actually, there is a reference to a large part of the territory

12     of Republika Srpska that the forces of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina are

13     attacking, right?

14        A.   Yes.  It is practically all of Republika Srpska that was covered

15     by these corps.

16        Q.   Your units, did they take part in the defence from these attacks

17     and were you helping the Zvornik Brigade in that way?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   All units that this order that is before us pertains to, P1464 is

20     how we have marked it, they are part of the Drina Corps, all of them,

21     aren't they?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   This order was not sent to the Main Staff of the Army of

24     Republika Srpska; is that correct?  Can you see that from the document?

25        A.   This preparatory order?

Page 11281

 1        Q.   Yes.

 2        A.   It wasn't sent.

 3        Q.   It was not supposed to be sent.  Is that correct as well?

 4        A.   It wasn't supposed to be sent.  It is correct that it was not

 5     necessary to send it.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we briefly take a look at 1D976

 7     in e-court.

 8        Q.   Before you can actually see it, I'll say that this is a document

 9     of the General Staff of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, dated the 17th of

10     June, 1995.  And it is a document that is entitled: "Preparations for

11     Offensive Combat Operations Order."  And in paragraph 1 it says that the

12     Chief of Staff of the 2nd Corps, Sulejman Budakovic, is issuing the order

13     as follows:

14             "Execute all preparations in the command of the 28th land army

15     division to execute offensive combat operations with a view to liberating

16     the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina overextending the AS and --" it says

17     "AS" or "KS" here, "inflicting losses, co-ordinate the action with the

18     BH Army forces carrying out operations in the SS area of Sarajevo."

19             At that time were you aware that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

20     was attempting to take control of the entire territory of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22        A.   Yes.  By carrying out tasks and by conducting individual

23     operations in certain areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina to take hold of that

24     particular area of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but especially to split apart the

25     territory of Republika Srpska.

Page 11282

 1        Q.   You said that you had no contact with the enclaves, the brigade

 2     under your command.  However, did you have any intelligence to the effect

 3     that the units of the 28th Division from Srebrenica and Zepa carried out

 4     attacks from the safe havens towards the depth of the territory under the

 5     control of the Army of Republika Srpska?

 6        A.   Yes.  We had intelligence on the number of forces first and

 7     foremost in the territory in the area of the Drina Corps and such

 8     information reached the command of the brigade on a daily basis.  In

 9     addition to that, in addition to the intelligence, I also received

10     information about the losses and things that were taking place in certain

11     villages, in positions, and in certain sectors.

12        Q.   Did you know that not only the villages on the demarcation line

13     were attacked but also the villages in the depth of the territory of

14     Republika Srpska, did you receive information to that effect?

15        A.   Yes, I did.  And one of the most vivid pieces of information that

16     I will never forget, I think it involved the village of Visnjica, if I

17     still remember correctly, there was a massacre that took place there

18     against the residents.

19        Q.   You mentioned Visnjica, that attack of the 28th Division against

20     the village, was that the pretext for Krivaja 95 operation?

21        A.   Yes, that was the straw that broke the camel's back that prompted

22     the corps command to start implementing the objectives from the Directive

23     7/1 by conducting active operations in their area of responsibility.

24        Q.   We will get to the directive soon.  I would like to ask you now

25     something about end of June, early July, of 1995 and the Krivaja

Page 11283

 1     operation.  So first you came to Bratunac to the command of the Drina

 2     Corps when you reached that area; is that right?

 3        A.   You mean the Bratunac Brigade?  Are you referring to the forward

 4     command post of the Drina Corps that was there?

 5        Q.   No, you just tell us where you went on that occasion.

 6        A.   Well, I went -- I reported to the command, to the command post of

 7     the Bratunac Brigade in Bratunac, but I did not report to the commander

 8     of the brigade; rather, I reported to General Krstic who was the

 9     commander of the operation and used that command post as the command post

10     for that particular operation.

11        Q.   And this is where you were -- where you received your orders,

12     your tasks, right?

13        A.   Well, the last defining of the tasks took place there.  As for

14     the implementation of the tasks in the area, that took place near an

15     observation post near Pribecevci [phoen].

16        Q.   As you were receiving your tasks in Bratunac and also as the

17     details were worked out in Pribicevac, is it true that you did not see

18     anybody from the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska there?

19        A.   That is right.  I did not see them there.  None of them were

20     present.

21        Q.   Krivaja 95 operation was the operation of the Drina Corps; is

22     that right?

23        A.   Yes.  That's correct.

24        Q.   The Drina Corps planned out this operation and carried it out; is

25     that right?

Page 11284

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Both operations, the one on Srebrenica and on Zepa, both of these

 3     two actions were those of the Drina Corps?

 4        A.   Yes.  The competence for carrying out these actions, operations,

 5     was within the command of the Drina Corps which carried it out together

 6     with its unit.

 7        Q.   Is it true that the primary objective was to split, to separate

 8     the enclaves and that the additional objective once the conditions were

 9     created, as we could see earlier, further to the question put by

10     Mr. McCloskey, so the -- following that the additional objective was the

11     demilitarisation of the enclaves as it had been agreed back in 1993?

12        A.   Yes.  When I was answering one of Mr. McCloskey's questions, I

13     explained my position regarding this.

14        Q.   I will ask you something now about the Muslim forces in

15     Srebrenica.  So let us first take a look at a document.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But before we do that, I would like

17     to offer this document that is on our screens to be admitted.

18             [In English] I would tender this document on our screen.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. LUKIC:  It's 1D976, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the number would be.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  D286, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  D286 [Realtime transcript read in error "P286"] is

24     admitted into evidence.  I think I said D286 and that's --  yes, D286 is

25     admitted.

Page 11285

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 2             [Interpretation] Now we should see on the screens 65 ter 18150.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you repeat the number.  It's not recorded.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Microphone not activated] Sorry.  18150, 65 ter

 5     number.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] This is the document of the Army of

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina, command of the 28th Division in Srebrenica, dated 6th

 8     June, 1995.  This is the document which analyses the manpower per combat

 9     arms.  It was sent to the command of the 2nd Corps in Tuzla.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need the second page in both

11     versions.

12        Q.   And here you will see the segment that reads "ARJ PVO."  Can you

13     tell us what this acronym stands for?

14        A.   It stands for artillery and rocket units of the anti-aircraft

15     defence.

16        Q.   You will see that this document lists commanders of various

17     units.  So under number 4, 5, 7, 11, 12, 16, 17, 20, 24, 25, you can see

18     that it says PAT-20/1.  What does that stand for, PAT-20/1?

19        A.   It stands for anti-aircraft gun, 21-millimetre calibre with one

20     barrel.  So the calibre is 20 [as interpreted] millimetres and it is an

21     anti-aircraft gun.

22        Q.   And then under number 4, you can see rocket S-2M.  What is S-2M?

23        A.   That is a mobile anti-aircraft rocket carried by individuals and

24     its name is Strela 2M for anti-aircraft combat.  It is used to fire at

25     the departing aircraft because it follows the fumes, the exhaust fumes of

Page 11286

 1     the aircraft.

 2        Q.   Under number 6, 13, 18, 21, we can see commanders of units which

 3     have that weapon in their arsenal.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Did you come under fire from this weapon during the activities

 6     around Srebrenica and Zepa?

 7        A.   I think that I did in the Slapovici sector on the second day,

 8     which is to say on the 10th of July, in the early stage of the

 9     continuation of the attack following the change of the original

10     direction.  So once the conditions were created, my units came under fire

11     from this weapon.  So my units were under fire from these weapons, these

12     anti-aircraft guns.

13        Q.   Thank you for clarifying.  I did ask about these anti-aircraft

14     guns.  Obviously I didn't think that they were firing anti-aircraft

15     rockets at you.

16             Now that you are mentioning the 10th, is it true that on that day

17     the forces of the 28th Division commenced the counter-attack and pushed

18     back the Serbian forces back to their initial positions?

19        A.   In some areas, yes.  In the areas where I was, probably owing

20     partially to my influence as well given that I was deployed with the

21     units carrying out the incursion against those positions, our -- in those

22     areas where I was, we were somewhat former [as interpreted], and they

23     didn't manage to push us back.  However, I managed to get back a tank

24     which had been resubordinated to our neighbour on the right side, and

25     owing to the fire from that tank, those positions were neutralised and my

Page 11287

 1     forces were not moved from their original positions, and then we carried

 2     on.

 3        Q.   Would you agree with me that owing to the existence of these

 4     weapons within the enclave, it wasn't safe to fly above Srebrenica?

 5        A.   Yes, that's correct.  That certainly contributed to their

 6     no-being-safe area for flights above Srebrenica, these weapons.

 7        Q.   The forces of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Srebrenica and

 8     Zepa were five to six times more numerous than the forces of the Army of

 9     Republika Srpska which were carrying out the attack.

10        A.   Perhaps even more than that.  I'm saying this without a trace of

11     exaggeration or disparaging.  When one analyses the order and the forces

12     that were involved in active operations in order to split the enclaves,

13     then the ratio is even greater.

14        Q.   It was much easier to defend Srebrenica and Zepa and that area

15     than to attack it; is that right?

16        A.   Yes, given the configuration of the terrain and the long-term

17     fortifications that had been put in place there.  It was much easier to

18     be in defence there, to defend the area than to attack it.

19        Q.   Was that your impression as someone who took part in those

20     operations that the withdrawal of the members of the 28th Division from

21     the enclaves of Srebrenica was not only of a military but also of a

22     political nature?

23        A.   Yes, I agree with what you said.  And I hope there will be other

24     opportunities for me to expand on this.

25        Q.   Yes.  We will get to that point as well.  Now let me ask you

Page 11288

 1     something about the relations between the Army of Republika Srpska and

 2     the UNPROFOR forces.

 3             Earlier on you testified and I would ask you to explain to us

 4     whether you were aware of the plans of some of UNPROFOR officers to use

 5     helicopters for flying above Srebrenica in order to provoke fire for

 6     which the Serbs would be blamed.  The Serbs would be blamed for knocking

 7     down the helicopters which in turn would be punished by air strikes

 8     against the forces of Republika Srpska.

 9        A.   Yes.  Not at that time, but later on, while working in various

10     cases and in my various roles at the Tribunal, I managed to see certain

11     documents which refer to that and confirm that.

12        Q.   Is it true that this was proposed by General Smith to the command

13     in Zagreb?

14        A.   Yes.  Based on his statement given in 1996, there is a part of

15     that statement that confirms that.

16        Q.   At the time when the operation was being carried out, did you

17     have the impression and was that the prevalent opinion within the VRS

18     that by then UNPROFOR had openly sided with the other warring party?

19        A.   That was discussed very often, and in July, I could conclude

20     myself that there were such cases, especially where my unit was involved.

21     It was in the area of Zepa when I was being attacked.  There were APCs,

22     sandbags at UN points, and that was confirmed.  Until then, we were told

23     about that from other areas.  It was intelligence from other areas.  But

24     then I saw it for myself.  That was confirmation that that's exactly the

25     way it was, that the United Nations was being used for protecting the

Page 11289

 1     other side.

 2        Q.   Despite that, what kind of orders did you receive?  How were you

 3     supposed to behave towards members of UNPROFOR?

 4        A.   The orders we received verbally and in writing and in all

 5     contacts were that we should no behave improperly and that we should not

 6     thereby imperil our positions and the legitimacy of the VRS for carrying

 7     out combat operations in accordance with the rules of warfare, and that

 8     is how we did behave.  There are many confirmations of that, if you will.

 9        Q.   Like the Prosecutor today when we started, I'm going to ask for a

10     clarification of a term so that I do not use it wrongly.  Was this an

11     action, "akcija," or operation, "operacija," of the VRS as far as

12     Srebrenica was concerned?

13        A.   Yes.  According to the rules for combat documents and for the

14     works of -- for the work of commands and staffs, offensive activity is

15     active combat, and this was not an operation carried out at corps level

16     as a whole.  But since the corps command led this - how do I put this? -

17     in its name it had to include the word "operacija," operation, the

18     code-name was Krivaja 95.  But basically this was an operation of trying

19     to take care of positions, et cetera, and not all units were involved in

20     carrying out these active operations.  The level of the units involved

21     was below the brigade level.  So it wasn't even a brigade level.  It was

22     battalion --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter did not hear the end.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Could you just repeat something, this very last part of your

Page 11290

 1     answer because it was not recorded.  The last thing that was recorded

 2     was:

 3             "So it wasn't even brigade level."

 4        A.   Yes.  The order for active operations in the part where tasks are

 5     being issued to individual units, one can see that there aren't even

 6     units at infantry brigade level.  All of them are lower-ranking.  So it

 7     wasn't even an operation at brigade level.  Quite simply, it was an

 8     operation that was called an "action," that is, active combat.  I don't

 9     know English, so I don't know whether this last part has been

10     interpreted.

11        Q.   It's fine now.

12        A.   All right.

13        Q.   Is it correct that you were told that UNPROFOR and its members

14     were not the target of the actions of the VRS?

15        A.   Certainly.  Certainly there was that kind of cautioning that was

16     effected, that certainly it wasn't the forces of the UN, UNPROFOR, that

17     were the target.

18        Q.   Your soldiers from the units that you commanded, did they obey

19     these instructions?

20        A.   Well, I insisted that they obey this.  Of course, I could not see

21     everything, but there weren't any reports to the contrary.

22        Q.   The 9th of July, 1995.  That's what I'd like to move on to now.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We'll need document number

24     65 ter 04024.  That's what we'd like to have in e-court.  I think that we

25     used it today.  Just a moment, please.

Page 11291

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's now P1466.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

 3             [Interpretation] P1464 [as interpreted], could we now have that

 4     in e-court.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any intentions to tender the document

 6     which is on our screen?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 18150 receives number D287, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  D287 is admitted into evidence.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] You were asked about this document today.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.  I wrote this

15     down somewhere.

16        Q.   In this document, who is it that is agreeing to the entering into

17     enclaves?  Because page 18, line 1, of today's LiveNote is unclear.  It

18     says:

19             "[In English] The permission to enter was given."  "The

20     permission to enter was given."

21             [Interpretation] That is how it was recorded in the transcript.

22     Sorry, does this document show --

23        A.   This document shows in paragraph 2 that it says:

24             "The president of the republic is satisfied with the results of

25     combat operations around Srebrenica and has agreed with the continuation

Page 11292

 1     of operations for the take-over of Srebrenica, disarming of Muslim

 2     terrorist gangs, and complete demilitarisation of the Srebrenica

 3     enclave."

 4             So this is General Tolimir.  He sent this.  He informed the

 5     forward command post of the Drina Corps.  He said that the president of

 6     Republika Srpska was satisfied and that they could proceed.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we'd need document 1D973.

 9        Q.   Before I move onto this document, I'd just like to ask you

10     something that my learned friend Mr. McCloskey dealt with on page 5

11     today.  In line 7, this is what he said.  I'll start reading this out in

12     English so that you could get the right interpretation.  This is a

13     summary of your statement.  This is what it says:

14             "[In English] By 11 July, the other VRS officers and units were

15     able to enter Srebrenica town where he met briefly with General Mladic

16     and received orders from him ..."

17             [Interpretation] The order that you received was the direction of

18     the Bratunac, right?

19        A.   Yes, as far as I can remember.  However, this part, "other

20     officers could enter," that confused me a bit.  General Mladic did utter

21     those words, "ahead Bratunac," that was not the order -- this was not

22     issued as an order and I did not understand that to be an order.

23        Q.   Was it carried out all?

24        A.   No, not on my part, and I think that other commanders did not

25     take it that way either, did not carry this out as an order.

Page 11293

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you were referring to the summary of the

 2     evidence of the witness which is not evidence, so there is no need to

 3     correct that.  If there is anything in the evidence which needs

 4     correction, then please do so, but there is no need to seek further

 5     comment on the summary.  It's just -- if you think that the summary is

 6     not accurate.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  My learned friend is on his feet.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  There -- in the previous testimony he

10     does actually state what orders he received from Mladic at the time and

11     that, of course, would be the appropriate thing to be referring to.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then you can examine the witness on that but

13     not by putting to him the summary read by Mr. McCloskey.  But, of course,

14     if the summary accurately reflects what he said then, and if you want to

15     challenge that, then you should --

16             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the microphone be switched off for Mr. Mladic.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Mr. Mladic is not receiving -- oh, okay.  It's okay

19     now.  He wasn't receiving translation.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently it has been resolved.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I finished with this

23     clarification.  I will move on.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] 1D973 is the document that we have before us.

25     This is a document from the 9th of July.  This fits into what we were

Page 11294

 1     discussing about relations with UNPROFOR.  This is an interim combat

 2     report.  Major-General Radislav Krstic.  Paragraph 4, we see it's

 3     entitled "Conduct of UNPROFOR forces."  It says:

 4             "UNPROFOR forces at the check-points in Slapovici village and

 5     Bucje village surrendered fully to our forces with all their weapons and

 6     equipment and asked for our protection.  Ten (10) UNPROFOR soldiers from

 7     the UNPROFOR check-point in the village of Bucje have been sent to and

 8     accommodated in Milici, while five soldiers from the check-point in

 9     Slapovici have been accommodated in Bratunac.  UNPROFOR forces from the

10     base in Potocari village did not intervene at the check-points or attack

11     our forces."

12             Do you know about these things?  Do you know that this happened

13     when UNPROFOR soldiers asked the VRS for their help and crossed over to

14     their side?

15        A.   Yes, I know about that.

16        Q.   Did you, your unit, come across these UNPROFOR soldiers in the

17     village of Slapovici?

18        A.   Yes.  That part of the village of Slapovici that was like a

19     refugee camp for the Muslim population.  A crew of an APC encountered me

20     or I encountered them in this group that was with me.  They came out and

21     they surrendered.  I mean surrendered in the sense of walking out of the

22     APC with their hands up, and they asked to be taken out of this area of

23     combat activity and that was indeed done.

24        Q.   This interim combat report in part speaks about that, doesn't it?

25        A.   Yes, it does.

Page 11295

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I have more on this topic but I think it's break

 2     time.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Lukic, it is indeed time for a break.

 4             Could I invite the parties, the issue we had a few minutes ago

 5     about was there an order, was that what the witness testified in the

 6     previous case, did he understand it to be an order, was it executed by

 7     the others, yes, but not as an order, that was all rather vague and all

 8     rather ambiguous.  It would assist me, perhaps my colleagues as well, to

 9     have those matters clarified.  But then not on the basis of the summary

10     but then on the basis of the evidence.

11             The witness may follow the usher.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I may be able to clear that up

15     with a brief explanation that my guess is my colleague would agree with.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then coffee or tea.  Use the next break to see

17     whether you can --

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I was thinking of directing it to the Trial

19     Chamber to see if that would help put it in context and that might help

20     us guide our coffee.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  To say that it's entirely clear to me,

22     Mr. McCloskey, it's not.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I can clarify some of the issues for you.  That's

24     one of the problems with only taking an hour.  These issues have been

25     flushed out in greater detail, and I think if I explained it in two

Page 11296

 1     minutes my colleague would probably agree with me and it may help direct

 2     us to any further questions.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Give it a try during the break in the presence of

 5     Mr. Lukic, and then if he does agree then you'll certainly agree that

 6     you'll address the Chamber in that way, and then we'll hear that this is

 7     what Mr. Lukic agrees to, and it may be of guidance for us for further

 8     questions.

 9             We take a break and we resume at quarter past 12.00.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                           --- Recess taken at 11.54 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, excuse me, before that, could I --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  If you have -- well, there is no problem,

16     I take it, if the witness would hear it, because it's apparently

17     something you agree upon.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well -- and the witness may have his views as

19     well.  But one thing we did agree upon that we suggest is there is a very

20     brief video segment where Colonel Trivic meets General Mladic and the

21     comments "go to Bratunac" are mentioned which has started this.  I was

22     going to play it.  But you just saw this with the last witness whose name

23     I won't mention.  But for this particular issue, it helps to originate it

24     with that -- with that video.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clearly on my mind.  That gives the factual

Page 11297

 1     basis for whatever interpretation you may have on whether these are

 2     orders or not orders or, of course, it doesn't say anything about whether

 3     they were executed yes or no.  But that is clear, you say, for both, that

 4     is the factual basis for that portion of the evidence.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It -- yes.  And, Mr. President, just so you

 6     understand, it's from this video that the -- the witness will say that

 7     the orders to go towards Bratunac, that they were able to talk the

 8     general out of that and he was to security the heights.  And that is what

 9     is in his transcript that is in evidence on page 28 of e-court.  But to

10     get to that, and that was the order I was referring to in the summary,

11     but to get to that we do -- I -- hopefully it won't confuse the issues to

12     see the -- to see the you actual videotape.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  It's the videotape where there is a conversation in

15     the streets and that's --

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And the persons are identified.  We have them on the

18     stills.  So the Chamber is sufficiently aware of that.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  There is two sections.  There is that when

20     Trivic meets him, and he says, "On to Bratunac," and, "Colonel, we will

21     talk about that."  And there is another section where Mladic is doing the

22     same thing, a little while later Pandurevic steps in and says something

23     to the effect of, "Wait, general, we have to secure the hills because

24     there is Muslims up there," or maybe -- and so that comes to what his

25     final orders were, to secure the hills, and I think that's in agreement.

Page 11298

 1     And --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  And I think we have seen that second portion

 3     as well, isn't it?  Yes.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Absolutely.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yup.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So I wasn't playing it again.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  But we can if you wish.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No, there is no need to do that.  But we now at

10     least have a clear factual basis for ...

11             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know about the agreement but only that I

12     agreed on securing the hills, so if it's not played today we will play it

13     tomorrow for sure at the beginning of our ...

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  If you are -- of course, it's up to you to

15     select what you want to play with the witness.

16             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   We may continue.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You said that the members of UNPROFOR crossed over to the side of

23     the Army of Republika Srpska.  Did you mistreat them, did you threaten

24     them, did you torture them?  How did you treat them?

25        A.   There were no threats.  There was no torture, no mistreatment.

Page 11299

 1     In this group where I was, there was a soldier who was able to

 2     communicate with them in English.  They said who they were.  They

 3     surrendered the weapons to my group.  And then all together headed by me

 4     we walked back to the command post in Jasenovo.  Among them there was an

 5     officer who sat with me.  We offered them something to eat and I know

 6     that we had a beer.  It was quite a warm day and we managed to cool the

 7     beer in a stream.  And then we headed.  It is then that I informed them

 8     about what happened, and then a representative of the corps command

 9     appeared and took them over and led them away from my command post.

10        Q.   Via that interpreter, were you able to find out about their state

11     of mind?  Were they scared?  Were they distressed?

12        A.   Yes, I did learn about that.  An example showing how scared they

13     were was when they left the APC, at which time one of those young

14     soldiers must have been in a difficult mental state and his trousers all

15     of a sudden became wet.  So we told them that there was no reason for

16     them to be afraid, that they came into safe hands, and that they should

17     not be afraid, and they should not worry that anything would transpire

18     that would be in line with the stories they had heard earlier about who

19     Serbs were, what kind of soldiers they were, et cetera.

20        Q.   Did they tell you via the interpreter that the members of the

21     28th Division used them as human shield?

22        A.   After all these years, I can't remember the exact conversation

23     that we had.  It's possible that something like that was mentioned in

24     that brief conversation that I had with them.  Later on, I learned that

25     there had been such attempts.  I learned that from the book written by

Page 11300

 1     the interpreter who was from Srebrenica, Nuhanovic I think was his name.

 2     I can't remember, though, whether back at that time they told me that.

 3     Later on I saw some documents and some statements and some combat

 4     documents from that time all indicated that they were told to take

 5     advantage of the positions of the UN forces, to take full advantage to

 6     their benefit.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Trivic, that may be true or not, but what we are

 8     interested in to hear from you is not what you read in books, not and

 9     what you later learned in statements of others and what conclusions

10     reading that material might justify.  We are exclusively interested in

11     what you heard, what you saw, what you observed at that time.

12             Please proceed.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank

14     you for cautioning me.  When it comes to this instance of using UN forces

15     as human shield by the members of the 28th Division, the only area where

16     I saw that happen was the area of Zepa and Borik where they fired from

17     the APC of Ukrainian forces.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   We will get to that part as well, and we have a document that

20     refers to that.  Now, when it comes to the document that is on our

21     screens right now, tell us, please, does it reflect accurately in

22     paragraph 4 what happened on the ground about how those people were taken

23     over?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In that case, we tender this document

Page 11301

 1     into evidence, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  1D973 receives D288, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  D288 is admitted into evidence.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Is it the village of Slapovic or Slapovici?

 7        A.   I think that it's without the i.  I think it's just Slapovic.

 8        Q.   Slapovic.  All right.  So the village of Slapovic was empty when

 9     you got there; right?

10        A.   Yes.  The population was not there within those houses.

11     Actually, this is a settlement of prefabricated homes.  That's how it was

12     established, if you will.  There was no population there.

13        Q.   When you reached that place, there was no longer any members of

14     the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina there; right?

15        A.   No, there was nobody there.

16        Q.   And not a single house there was set on fire; right?  They were

17     all intact.

18        A.   No house was damaged by anything, either as a result of combat

19     activities or any other reason.

20        Q.   Let me asking you something briefly now about the fire that was

21     opened by the Army of Republika Srpska before entering Srebrenica.  You

22     personally entered the town of Srebrenica; right?  We can see it in the

23     video footage that we'll probably show tomorrow.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Before entering, did your forces open fire on the town of

Page 11302

 1     Srebrenica, the forces under your command?

 2        A.   The forces under my command, those units had no need to do that

 3     nor did they open fire against the town of Srebrenica.  I'm saying this

 4     because our forces came under fire and there was no need for us to fire

 5     at the town.

 6        Q.   During this operation, was heavy weaponry used at all?  What kind

 7     of weapons did you have at your disposal?

 8        A.   In addition to small arms, the support weaponry that I had was

 9     one mortar, 82-millimetre, and perhaps another calibre.  I would need to

10     check my diary for that.  And nothing else.  As I said, we had small arms

11     that we had on us.  As for the three tanks that were -- that I had in my

12     units, they had been resubordinated to the Zvornik Brigade due to the

13     configuration of the terrain.  It was possible for them to use the tanks

14     if needed because that's what the ground was like in their area.

15        Q.   In the course of that attack, did you see other units of the

16     Army of Republika Srpska or perhaps those three tanks themselves?  Did

17     you see them open fire at the town of Srebrenica?

18        A.   I did not see that and I was not aware of that.

19        Q.   So now we go to the 11th of July, 1995, the entry into

20     Srebrenica.  When you personally - not your unit - but you personally

21     entered the town, did you see buildings destroyed by artillery weapons?

22        A.   I did not see damaged or destroyed buildings.

23        Q.   On the road to Srebrenica and in Srebrenica itself, how many dead

24     people did you see?

25        A.   I did not see a single corpse on the road along which I moved.

Page 11303

 1        Q.   Did you see any houses burning in Srebrenica or burnt houses in

 2     Srebrenica when you entered?

 3        A.   No, I did not.

 4        Q.   You saw shattered glass on the Srebrenica hospital; is that

 5     right?

 6        A.   Yes, I saw that.  But it wasn't that there were ruins there

 7     anywhere.

 8        Q.   You did not see any direct hits on the hospital itself?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   On the 11th of July, 1995, did you enter the UN base in

11     Srebrenica?

12        A.   I personally did not.

13        Q.   When did you enter Srebrenica?  Can you remember the exact time?

14        A.   I have either the fortune or misfortune to have my own diary, so

15     that often helps me remember, especially in such situations when I am

16     preparing to testify.  I think it was between 17- and 1800 hours on the

17     11th [Realtime transcript read in error "27th"] of July.

18        Q.   Did you enter Naser Oric's apartment on that day, too?

19        A.   Me?  No.

20        Q.   The civilian population relocated from Srebrenica to Potocari

21     before you entered the town; right?

22        A.   Yes, I am sure.  Most of them.  Also there were still some

23     individuals who were leaving those small streets and buildings and they

24     were told that they should go to Potocari to the base there.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I clarify about which day are you testifying

Page 11304

 1     at the moment?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 11th.  The 11th of July.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In the record I see on page 53, line 15, "I think

 4     it was between 17- and 1800 hours on the 27th of July."  I take it that

 5     you are referring to the 11th of July; is that correct?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not say either the 11th or

 7     the 27th.  I did not say anything about the date.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And in fact you were testifying at the moment

 9     about 11th; is that correct.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, that's correct.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you for noticing that, Your Honour.  I missed

13     it.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you personally help some elderly persons on

15     that occasion?

16        A.   Yes, but that was on the 12th of July.

17        Q.   All right.  Then, we'll get to that when we start talking about

18     the 12th.  You or some other member of the VRS, do you know, did you find

19     any weapons in any of the depots that the Muslims had allegedly handed

20     over?

21        A.   No, I did not find anything and no one informed me about any such

22     thing and I don't know anything about that.

23        Q.   Members of UNPROFOR, did they hand over weapons to members of the

24     VRS that they allegedly held in the depot?  Did you hear anything like

25     that or did anyone hand anything over to you?

Page 11305

 1        A.   No, and I wouldn't want to speculate as to what I heard and when

 2     I heard it, but I did not know of anything like that at the time and who

 3     took these weapons and who gave what to who.

 4        Q.   The only personal contact that you had with General Ratko Mladic

 5     during this operation or action was when you were filmed in Srebrenica;

 6     right?

 7        A.   Yes, that is the only personal contact.  And the one at the

 8     meeting on the following day.

 9        Q.   During this action, you did not have any contact with

10     General Ratko Mladic, not even through communications equipment; is that

11     right?

12        A.   Yes, that's right.  There weren't any conversations.  I just knew

13     about the circular information stating that there could be NATO air

14     strikes and that commanders should personally speak through radio

15     equipment in such a situation, so it wouldn't be the communications

16     officer or operator but it would have to be the commander personally who

17     would have to speak.

18        Q.   On that occasion in that circular information, the General is

19     cautioning about the possibility of NATO air strikes; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes, that was a warning, and it was an announcement of that

21     possibility, and that we should camouflage our forces, that they

22     shouldn't be concentrated, that they should be extended over a broader

23     area as is the case in such situations.  So it has to do with what

24     officers are duty-bound to do in such situations.

25        Q.   So he's just reminding you about the duties that had already been

Page 11306

 1     prescribed; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   On that occasion, did you enter the building of Srebrenica

 4     municipality?

 5        A.   You mean the 11th.

 6        Q.   The 11th.

 7        A.   No.  The municipality building, I entered it -- or, rather, I was

 8     in front of the building on the 13th in the morning when preparing

 9     vehicles to transport personnel to the area of Zepa.

10        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter 4400 in

12     e-court now.

13             Just a moment, please.  I need to approach my client.

14                           [Defence and accused confer]

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon.

16        Q.   We see this document now, the 11th of July, 1995, issued by the

17     commander of the Drina Corps Milenko Zivanovic at the time.  In the first

18     paragraph it says:

19             "The command of the 28th Division of the so-called Army

20     of Bosnia-Herzegovina asked to be immediately redeployed from the

21     Sarajevo front."

22             And then in the last paragraph in B/C/S, it's on the next page in

23     English, it says:

24             "In agreement and co-operation with MUP organs in Srebrenica" --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

Page 11307

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   "... Vlasenica, Han Pijesak, Sokolac and Zvornik, by sensible

 3     deployment of forces, ensure control of roads, block the passage of

 4     Muslims from and into the enclave and take control over the territory in

 5     depth in relation to the road."

 6             Did you manage to find this?  We actually need the previous page

 7     in B/C/S.  I do apologise.  At that time is it correct that you did not

 8     have accurate information as to where the members of the 28th Division

 9     were.  Also you did not have accurate information as to what their

10     intentions were?

11        A.   What you say in your question is correct.  We did not have

12     information as to where they were and in which directions they were

13     moving.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we clarify who he means by "we"?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you explain, Witness, when you said, "We did

16     not have information ..." who you refer to?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Army of Republika Srpska or,

18     rather, the Drina Corps.  But let me correct this by saying that I did

19     not have information.  My command group and I did not.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Did you take into account the possibility, in your plans, that

23     is, that along any road that you were moving on within the enclaves or

24     the enclave of Srebrenica at the time and around it that there could be

25     an attack from the units of the 28th Division?

Page 11308

 1        A.   Yes.  Yes.  That was one of the important assessments made, that

 2     one had to be alert and complete these active operations, which did

 3     happen on the 12th because we were given tasks to complete the attack, to

 4     enter the state of pursuit towards the facilities that were the original

 5     targets that were set for individual units.

 6        Q.   So what we see on the screen, is this in line with what you and

 7     your unit received at the time?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We'd like to ask that this document,

10     65 ter 4400, be admitted into evidence, please.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  D289, Your Honours, thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  D289 is admitted.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Now I'd like us to move in time, the 12th of July, 1995.  In

17     Potocari when you were passing by in the evening, you were passing by

18     around 2030 hours on the evening of the 11th?

19        A.   Yes, roughly, because I needed to reach the command of the

20     Bratunac Brigade.

21        Q.   You saw the police trying to maintain law and order and to keep

22     the traffic going for the vehicles that were there?

23        A.   Yes, I saw that.

24        Q.   The first evening --

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.  That's a misstatement of the prior

Page 11309

 1     testimony.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if there is any problem in whether or not

 3     it accurately states, could you please quote to the extent possible

 4     literally.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have 1D970, please, line -- page 16 in the

 6     e-court.  [Interpretation] This is a page of the Popovic et al. trial and

 7     the page number of that transcript is 11838.  [In English] I will read,

 8     quote, answer, line 3:

 9             "A.  There were many people in Potocari, crowds of people.  On

10     the road itself, while I wouldn't say that there were crowds of people,

11     but at any rate there were people moving along the road to the left and

12     to the right roadside, and one had to pass through that section of the

13     road quite slowly.  Military and civilian police officers, several of

14     them, tried to maintain order and make way for the vehicles passing along

15     that road."

16             So I don't know if the problem was with translation.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know whether it's "the law" which was

18     missing, but, Mr. --

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now that it's complete and we have military and

20     civilian police I think it's a fair question, otherwise I think it was

21     unfairly questioned.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23             MR. LUKIC:  If we go back to audio recording, I am sure that I

24     mentioned military and civil police [overlapping speakers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  You have an opportunity to do that.

Page 11310

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I apologise if that made confusion, but I am sure

 2     that I read both.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's move on at this very moment.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] The first evening as you were going through

 6     Potocari, on that evening did you see any buses?

 7        A.   The 12th?

 8        Q.   Yes, the 12th.

 9        A.   I think I did see them but in that commotion one didn't pay

10     attention to everything that was happening and much time has passed

11     since.  I know that of the 13th I was driving in a column of vehicles,

12     buses, trucks, transporting residents from Potocari to Bratunac.

13        Q.   We are still on the 12th.  And there was a meeting of the

14     12th of July in the evening at the Fontana Hotel.  You attended only one

15     meeting at the Bratunac Brigade; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   At the meeting we are discussing right now, you mentioned in your

18     previous testimony that you heard General Mladic talking about the need

19     to provide fuel for buses and trucks; is that right?

20        A.   Yes.  To ensure fuel.

21        Q.   At that meeting on the 12th of July in the evening, you remember

22     that you were present and General Pandurevic; is that right?

23        A.   Yes.  That's for certain.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Colonel Pandurevic, interpreter's correction.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 11311

 1        Q.   You don't remember anybody from the Main Staff attended that

 2     meeting other than General Mladic; right?

 3        A.   I don't remember anybody else being there from the Main Staff

 4     other than General Mladic.

 5        Q.   Is it also correct that between the 6th and 13th of July, 1995,

 6     in Bratunac, you had no contact nor did you see anybody from the

 7     Main Staff of the VRS there?

 8        A.   That is correct.

 9        Q.   Is it also correct that other than the cases you stated, you had

10     no communication with any members of the Main Staff during the Krivaja 95

11     operation?

12        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I did not communicate with any officers

13     from the Main Staff at that time.

14        Q.   So this meeting on the 12th of July in the evening was attended

15     by General Mladic as well.  At what time did he come?  Was it at around

16     2200 hours?

17        A.   Yes, he came at around 2200 hours.  General Krstic came at 2100

18     hours and General Mladic joined at 2200 hours.

19        Q.   What did he say on that occasion.  Will you tell us that, please?

20        A.   I can't quote his exact words but he congratulated on the results

21     of the combat until that point.  And as I have stated earlier to

22     Mr. McCloskey, he gave a task -- or, rather, he proposed -- well, he

23     asked General Krstic to come up with a plan for the Srebrenica enclave

24     and how that was going to be solved, and he said that they should use the

25     momentum of the success achieved until that point and to continue into

Page 11312

 1     the next task immediately from that area.

 2        Q.   And what was your position?  What was the position of Pandurevic?

 3        A.   The only activity that was planned at the outset of this task as

 4     we were preparing our soldiers for the task was to take part in the

 5     splitting of the enclaves and that was the motive for the soldiers and

 6     for those who came to participate.  As you know, not all of the soldiers

 7     wanted or were willing to take part in the offensive, we assigned them to

 8     holding the positions and so on.  I don't want to go into those details.

 9     And there were also some health issues with some of the soldiers because

10     it was quite hot, there was no water -- not enough water, they couldn't

11     bathe, and so on.

12             So before General Mladic came, we informed General Krstic about

13     the condition as it was at the time.  That's what we did between 21- and

14     2200 hours.  Maybe this is the first time I am telling you this, but

15     General Krstic wasn't really willing to tell the commander of the

16     Main Staff that we shouldn't go.  He asked us as brigade commanders to

17     inform him of that and to explain it to him.  General Krstic did not know

18     what the position of the commander of the Main Staff was going to be.  We

19     did inform Krstic earlier before General Mladic came and the conclusion

20     of that meeting was as I have already told you today and as you already

21     know.

22        Q.   Was there an order to ensure the roads in the Srebrenica area at

23     the time?  Was there such an order?

24        A.   I don't want to interpret things but, yes, there was a need for

25     that, and as is stated in that document about closing off roads, it was

Page 11313

 1     stated there that it was necessary to maintain lines, positions, so that

 2     there would be no surprise attacks when the forces were withdrawing from

 3     Srebrenica.  Yes, there was such need.  And there was an order to secure

 4     roads so that there wouldn't be any surprise attacks in that area, Zepa

 5     and Srebrenica, as the forces were withdrawing.

 6        Q.   Was there an order to secure roads leading from Srebrenica to

 7     Bratunac and Vlasenica?

 8        A.   Yes.  We were given such orders, too.  And one of such orders was

 9     given to the 2nd Romanija Brigade given that such activities were

10     conducted in their position.  So there was no information as to the

11     direction that the withdrawing forces were taking, so it was possible

12     that they could have threatened the -- all of the positions of the

13     Army of Republika Srpska in all of the areas through which the corps

14     moved.

15        Q.   The order to secure roads was also issued by the command of the

16     Drina Corps; right?

17        A.   Yes, yes.  They were in command of the entire operation and

18     they -- and that's how it concluded, under their command.

19        Q.   And that was a -- that is a routine military activity after an

20     area is taken; right?

21        A.   Yes, that is a routine procedure that is applied always after

22     combat activities.  Yes.

23        Q.   The main task, at least as far as you were concerned, was to move

24     on to Zepa; right?

25        A.   Yes.  For me and my unit, yes.  After the 13th.

Page 11314

 1        Q.   After that meeting, there was a dinner, right, on the

 2     12th of July 1995 in the evening?

 3        A.   Yes, we had dinner in a room in that facility where the command

 4     of the Bratunac Brigade was.

 5        Q.   Was the dinner attended by the same people as the meeting?

 6        A.   Yes.  Those who were at the meeting and perhaps some other people

 7     joined as well among those who had organised the dinner.  So it was in a

 8     separate room, not in the dining room of that facility.  That facility

 9     used to belong to a company before the war and they had their kitchen and

10     their dining room where the soldiers ate, whereas we went to another room

11     where perhaps up to 20 people could be seated.  So it was us from the

12     meeting and some other people who had organised the dinner.

13        Q.   Please listen carefully to my question.  During that meeting or

14     perhaps during the dinner which followed the meeting, was there any talk

15     of the prisoners or possible prisoners or disarmed enemy soldiers?

16        A.   There was no talk of what to do.  The activities concerning

17     future tasks of the units mostly centred about what was to be done

18     afterwards.  And when it comes to closing off certain roads, blocking

19     them off, controlling roads, and the deployment of civil authorities,

20     military police, and so on, all of this was concluded -- the official

21     part of the evening was concluded in the room where we had our meeting.

22     After that, there was no talk of prisoners or disarmed forces.  It was

23     not discussed at the dinner.

24        Q.   Was it discussed at the meeting because you just said that it

25     wasn't discussed during the dinner.

Page 11315

 1        A.   Everything that was said at the meeting was that somebody --

 2     somebody with whom General Mladic had talked was to provide fuel, whereas

 3     the army was to rely on the old system of requisitioning vehicles to

 4     ensure vehicles, because I guess somebody was saying what about the

 5     vehicles.  So that was all that was discussed.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We have now spent two or three questions on whether

 7     prisoners or personal prisoners or disarmed enemy soldiers were

 8     mentioned.  Were they not mentioned at all during the meeting, in between

 9     the meetings, dinner, after dinner, before dinner?  Was any -- but was it

10     ever mentioned that there were prisoners or possibly prisoners or

11     disarmed enemy soldiers?  Clear question, please, a short answer.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  During that day at the

13     meeting and during the dinner there was no talk of prisoners of war or

14     disarmed enemy forces.  All that was discussed was the evacuation of the

15     population, evacuation of the Muslim population from Potocari.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  They were not even mentioned?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that prisoners of

18     war were mentioned or disarmed enemy forces.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the evacuation of the population.  Would that

20     include men and boys of, well, let's say over 16 years?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is that a question to me?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a question to you.  You said that was part of

23     the conversation and you talked about the population.  Were you talking

24     about men and women or men and boys or children and elderly?  What was

25     the gist of it?

Page 11316

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I wish to be clear.

 2     At that meeting, both the official part and the dinner part that followed

 3     there was no talk of prisoners of war.  No such term was used, nor were

 4     the disarmed enemy forces discussed either.  The term "prisoners" as it

 5     pertained to population, to people in Potocari, was used for the first

 6     time by the Prosecutor in this case when I was asked whether I had seen

 7     the prisoners, when I was asked about their evacuation, and so on.  In

 8     that case I clarified it.  I said that they were not prisoners and those

 9     who were killed.  I said it back then that those were not prisoners and I

10     wish to repeat it now.

11             People in Potocari, the population, they were not prisoners.  As

12     for those who were disarmed later on on the road, those were the disarmed

13     enemy forces and that was the first time I used that term, and I ask that

14     it be treated in that way.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  When I asked you whether prisoners or prisoners of

16     war were even mentioned, you said:

17             "I don't remember that prisoners of war were mentioned or

18     disarmed enemy forces."

19             So you started by saying that it had not been discussed and that

20     at a later stage in your answers, after you have dwelled far away from

21     the question and not directly answered the question, you then said:

22             "I don't remember whether they were mentioned."

23             Is that still your answer?

24             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry, Your Honour, when did he say that he does not

25     remember?  I don't have it.

Page 11317

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I have, yes.  Let me -- just one second, Mr. Lukic.

 2     It just disappeared from my screen, so I have to find it on the other

 3     screen.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  The gentleman said that he does not remember whether

 5     anybody mentioned it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I asked, and we were talking about, evacuation of

 7     Muslim population from Potocari.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Line 15, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] prisoners of war.  I am

10     looking at my question at page 65, line 14, and then the answer on

11     line 15.

12             "I don't remember that prisoners of war were mentioned or

13     disarmed enemy forces."

14             MR. LUKIC:  Not that he does not remember.  He does not remember

15     that anybody mentioned them.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And earlier the witness answered more or less

17     that it had not been part of the -- had not been part of

18     the [overlapping speakers] that's not the same.

19             MR. LUKIC:  That's the same.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No, that's not the same.

21             MR. LUKIC:  That's the same.  I can clarify it with him but it's

22     the same.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I disagree with you that that's the same.

24             Yes, Judge Moloto has a question.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  At page 65, lines 20 to 23, Judge Orie asked the

Page 11318

 1     question:

 2             "That's a question to you.  You said that was part of the

 3     conversation and you talk about the population.  Were you talking about

 4     men and women or men and boys or children and elderly?  What was the gist

 5     of it?"

 6             And you went on to answer, sir, from line 24 of page 65 right up

 7     to line 8 of page 66, talking about prisoners.  Now, I would ask you to

 8     answer Judge Orie's question which wasn't about prisoners but about the

 9     population.  Did you talk about men and women and children being

10     evacuated?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Allow me --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers]

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- to try --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just say yes or no.  Did you talk about the

15     evacuation of the population which in discussion included men and women

16     and children and elderly?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no mention of evacuation

18     at all.  None at all except for the telephone conversation of

19     General Mladic with someone about fuel for evacuation.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  It seems -- [Microphone not activated]

21     Sorry.

22             It does seem to me as if you -- there is a change from what you

23     said, because Judge Orie earlier said to you:

24             "Now the evacuation of the population, would that include men and

25     boy of, well, let's say over 16 years?"

Page 11319

 1             That was long before what I quoted to you.  And that was in

 2     reaction to you having said, "Thank you," and this is at page 65, line

 3     10:

 4             "During that day at the meeting and during the dinner there was

 5     no talk of prisoners of war or disarmed enemy forces.  All that was

 6     discussed was the evacuation of the population, evacuation of the Muslim

 7     population from Potocari."

 8             That's what you've just said.  Now you say that that was not

 9     discussed.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise to the

11     Presiding Judge and the entire Trial Chamber.  What you are imputing to

12     me now is not correct.  I did not say that there was any reference to the

13     evacuation of the population.  I never stated that and I'm not stating

14     that today, either, that on that day at meetings or at the dinner that I

15     attended there was any mention of evacuating the population, older,

16     younger, prisoners of war, this or that, but I did say that for the

17     people in Potocari, the word "prisoners of war" was used by the

18     Prosecutor in Popovic, I think.  And later in some statements I said

19     that, after all, these were not prisoners of war.  These were people who

20     went to Potocari themselves.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let the record show that I am not imputing

22     anything to you and that I am not talking about prisoners.  I am talking

23     about the evacuation of the population which is on the record here, and

24     if you say you didn't say so, and maybe it's just a question of

25     interpretation, but the record shows clearly that that's what you said.

Page 11320

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  This can be easily verified, Witness, by listening

 2     through the audio.  If you say, "It's not what I said," then we'll check

 3     it and then we'll see whether you said it or not.  Is that what you wish

 4     us to do?  Or are you leaving the possibility open that you said:

 5             "All that was discussed was the evacuation of the population,

 6     evacuation of the Muslim population from Potocari."

 7             If you consider it possible that you said that, we'll just follow

 8     the transcript.  If you say that's not what I said, we'll check it on the

 9     basis of the audio.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Once again, thank you.

11     I do not wish, I mean, for us to have any kind of I don't want to say

12     "clash" but misunderstanding.  That evening on the 12th of July --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] No, no --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- there was no mention --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I am not seeking repetition of a discussion

16     on the matter.  What I'm doing at this moment, I asked you whether it's

17     possible that you said what I just read to you.  If you say, "No, that's

18     not possible," we'll verify it.  If you say, "It's possible," we'll leave

19     it as it is.  Which of the two?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to have this checked

21     what I said.  I want to be clear in my answers.  And I am telling the

22     truth.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It has got nothing to do with the truth.  We'll

24     check.  We'll verify whether that is what you said.  We are talking about

25     page 65, lines 12 and 13.  If it could be done during the break, that

Page 11321

 1     would be preferable; if not, we'll hear later and then we can put it to

 2     you tomorrow.

 3             We take a break and we would first like the witness to be

 4     escorted out of the courtroom.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll resume at quarter to 2.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 1.24 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14        Q.   Can we proceed now?  Do you have the right glasses?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   How long did you stay at the Fontana Hotel that evening?  Did you

17     leave when everybody else left?  Did you leave earlier?  Just tell us

18     now.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't know where we are getting the

21     Hotel Fontana --

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the Bratunac Brigade.  Sorry about

23     that.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for your help.  It seems

25     that this entire misunderstanding is based on that first question during

Page 11322

 1     that part before the break.  I did not attend the meeting at the

 2     Fontana Hotel.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That has been corrected already.  Please answer the

 4     question:  At what time did you leave the Bratunac Brigade headquarters?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I left after the dinner and came to

 6     my command post very late.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Did you leave when all the rest left?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   At that meeting, did anyone at any point in time say or propose

11     that the Muslims should be killed?

12        A.   No, no one.  No one proposed that, no one said that.

13        Q.   At that time you had intelligence to the effect that most of the

14     28th Division was withdrawing through territory controlled by the VRS.

15     They were fighting their way to Tuzla, that was under BH control; is that

16     correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   At the time of this meeting, did anyone inform you -- did you

19     hear about men being separated in Potocari on the evening of the 12th?

20        A.   No, I did not hear that.

21        Q.   After that meeting and after that dinner, when going to your

22     command post you passed through Potocari; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   In Potocari you saw women and men; is that right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 11323

 1        Q.   I don't know whether you paid attention to this, but did you

 2     notice the age of the men that you saw there?  Would you remember that

 3     now?

 4        A.   I cannot remember and I wasn't paying attention to that.

 5        Q.   Now I'd like to ask you something about the 13th of July, 1995.

 6     Did General Mladic address the troops on the 13th of July, 1995, and is

 7     it correct that he was asked to do that because of the exhaustion of the

 8     soldiers that had taken part in the Srebrenica operation before that?

 9        A.   Yes, General Mladic came to the area of the village of Viogor and

10     he addressed part of the forces of my unit that I commanded, the unit

11     that was commanded by Colonel Andric, and otherwise our forces were there

12     in that area along that road in the village of Viogor.  And this address

13     was due to what we said at that meeting, that he would motivate the

14     soldiers and he would mitigate the situation and motivate them to go to

15     other areas.

16        Q.   On that occasion did General Krstic address the troops too?

17        A.   Yes, General Krstic did too.

18        Q.   Did he issue specific tasks to the units on that occasion?

19        A.   On that occasion -- or rather, after General Mladic's address,

20     General Krstic addressed the soldiers and then he issued specific tasks

21     to us, the commanders, in respect of Zepa, specifically those initial

22     tasks so that we could move to the sector of Zepa.

23        Q.   On that occasion what was the task that you received from

24     General Krstic, to go to the village of Krivace; right?

25        A.   Yes, the task that pertained to my unit was first of all what my

Page 11324

 1     marching route would be with the main forces of -- and then also what the

 2     dead-line would be for reaching Krivace; inter alia, it was stating that

 3     my unit would have a task, a particular role in Zepa and so on.

 4        Q.   Now Potocari on the 13th of July, 1995.  In Potocari you see

 5     groups of people, right, you see soldiers, policemen, and inhabitants of

 6     Srebrenica?

 7        A.   It was a clear day in July and I observed all of that that

 8     happened.  I saw civilians, women, children, soldiers, policemen, men,

 9     vehicles, the boarding of vehicles, and so on.

10        Q.   Now going from -- towards Krivace from Bratunac, you saw

11     prisoners in Nova Kasaba; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Disarmed enemy soldiers?

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15        Q.   You were travelling by car; right?

16        A.   Yes.  I was travelling, or rather, I was in my Puch vehicle.

17        Q.   You did not leave the vehicle on that occasion?

18        A.   No, did I not.  Except for lunch, but when I set out after lunch,

19     I did not leave the vehicle.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I seek some clarification of one of the

23     previous questions and the answers.

24             You said in Nova Kasaba you saw prisoners.  Your answer was

25     "yes."  And then the next question was:

Page 11325

 1             "Disarmed enemy soldiers?"

 2             You responded again by saying:

 3             "Yes, yes."

 4             How did you -- how were you able to distinguish between prisoners

 5     and disarmed soldiers?  Were they separate?  Were they together?  How

 6     were you able to see who was a prisoner and who was a disarmed enemy

 7     soldier?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that there was a

 9     question with these two terms that I used.  The forces in Kasaba were

10     disarmed enemy forces, in my view, from the units of the 28th Division.

11             JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] So there were no -- there

12     were only disarmed soldiers there?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Kasaba, yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  How did you know?  Did you speak with them?  Or how

15     did you know that they were disarmed soldiers rather than persons not

16     being armed, whether or not belonging to any armed force?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would rather not explain, but the

18     stage of the attack that we carried out on the 12th, which was the

19     conclusion of the offensive, was the pursuit stage of the enemy forces

20     that refused to surrender.  Had they surrendered when they were in an

21     impossible situation and had they stayed --

22             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- with their population, then they

24     would have been arrested or taken prisoner.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm stopping you there.  Again, you are not

Page 11326

 1     answering my question which seems to become a habit of yours.  Simply,

 2     how were you able to distinguish between disarmed soldiers and --

 3     apparently you consider disarmed soldiers not being prisoners, not even

 4     being prisoners of war.  I do not know what your answer means in this

 5     respect, that there were no prisoners.  But how could you distinguish

 6     between those who were not free, apparently, to move as they wished?  How

 7     did you know that they were disarmed soldiers rather than not disarmed

 8     soldiers?

 9             Please could you answer my question.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The interpreter used the term

11     "armed soldiers" and not "disarmed soldiers" in the last bit of

12     interpretation I received.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I am talking about disarmed soldiers.  Could

14     you please answer my question.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer to your question is this:

16     Those who I saw in Kasaba for me were disarmed enemy forces who had been

17     disarmed at the conclusion of the attack in the pursuit stage.  They did

18     not surrender in the combat activities when they were in the position to

19     surrender.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Still my question is:  How could you know that

21     they were and, for example, not non-combatants?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All of them who had set out to

23     break through towards Tuzla, towards the canton where they wanted to go,

24     in order not to become prisoners of war, all of them put themselves in

25     the position of being disarmed enemy forces.

Page 11327

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So therefore your explanation is that if someone

 2     decided to try to leave the area through the woods instead of

 3     surrendering, that they, for that reason, were part of enemy forces.  Is

 4     that your testimony?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All of those who decided to set out

 6     with the soldiers of the 28th Division - I don't know whether all of them

 7     were members of the 28th Division or not, nobody knows that - but all of

 8     those who had set out to break through expecting to go towards their own

 9     free territory across the positions of the Army of Republika Srpska

10     brought themselves in a position where they became disarmed enemy forces

11     because the Army of Republika Srpska was concluding its offensive and was

12     in the pursuit stage.  Had they decided earlier on to surrender via their

13     representatives, via their commanders, once they saw that they were in an

14     impossible situation, then they would have become prisoners of war.  This

15     was my interpretation and the interpretation of the international laws of

16     war.

17             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They put themselves in this

19     situation where they became disarmed enemy forces.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I leave it to you that that's your interpretation.

21     Whether that's the interpretation of the international laws of war is for

22     this Chamber to further consider.

23             Mr. Lukic.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put a follow-up question.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 11328

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  When you pass by in Nova Kasaba towards Krivace,

 2     in your vehicle, how did you establish that these people you saw there,

 3     these detained people, were part of those who tried to break through

 4     towards the so-called free territory?  How did you establish that, by

 5     passing by?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] See here.  In the course of those

 7     several days while the combat activities were carried out and while those

 8     events were taking place, the effects can only have one interpretation.

 9     In that period of time, one part of combat activities were concluded.  On

10     the 10th or 11th, somebody decided that the forces of the 28th Division

11     and the population would withdraw from the positions.  Now, whether it

12     was the commanders of the local authorities who decided that, I don't

13     know; however, some of them went to Potocari --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is not my question.  You passed by, by car,

15     and saw a group of people, and then you established that these were

16     disarmed enemy soldiers.  How many people -- how many disarmed enemy

17     soldiers did you see there?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will repeat once again.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On 15th or 20 kilometres further

21     on --

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, no, no.  Please stop.  I asked you a precise

23     question.  How many people did you see there?  How many disarmed enemy

24     soldiers did you see at Nova Kasaba, only there, when you passed by in

25     your car?  Please answer my question and nothing else.

Page 11329

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They said at the football-pitch, at

 2     the football stadium, on the right side of the road as I was moving along

 3     the road, I cannot tell you how many there were.  I didn't count.  But

 4     almost the entire football-pitch was taken up by them.  They sat on that

 5     pitch.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How were they dressed?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in the clothes that they

 8     wore at the time.  I didn't pay attention to what they were wearing.

 9     This was in Nova Kasaba.  Along the road I saw several smaller groups of

10     disarmed --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I am asking about Nova Kasaba.  You explained

12     that you saw them sitting on the football-pitch, and were they in

13     uniforms or in civilian clothes?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't pay attention to the

15     clothes that they wore.  I don't think it's important.  They could have

16     changed their clothes to fair better.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How did you establish that they were part of the

18     people who tried to break through towards Tuzla?  How did you establish

19     that?  Did anybody tell you or did you ask them?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. President, the

21     order of the corps commander, the last one we saw in the Serbian

22     language, stated that the estimate of the Drina Corps was that the forces

23     of the 28th Division were moving towards Kladanj and Olovo - it said

24     everything to me, the forces of the 28th Division.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I notice that you are not able to answer my

Page 11330

 1     question.

 2             Mr. Lukic, you should proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4        Q.   Nova Kasaba is on the road to Kladanj and Tuzla; right?

 5        A.   Yes.  In that direction towards Kladanj and Tuzla and on the road

 6     to Milici and Vlasenica.

 7        Q.   As for the clothes that they wore, you said that you didn't pay

 8     attention.  In the clashes with the members of the BH Army earlier on,

 9     were you able to see that a lot of them were armed but wore civilian

10     clothes?

11        A.   Yes, there was such situations in earlier combat.

12        Q.   So the existence of nonexistence of uniforms among the soldiers

13     of the BH Army wasn't the decisive factor in determining whether somebody

14     was a member of their armed forces or not?

15        A.   No, it wasn't the decisive factor.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You're asking for opinion.  You're aware of that, I

17     take it?  That it's a decisive factor --

18             MR. LUKIC:  No, I'm asking his opinion as a commander, whether he

19     would establish the enemy through the wardrobe.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not what you asked, but I do not mind.

21             Let's proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  We are close to the end; right?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you consider this -- that this would --

24             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- finish an area.

Page 11331

 1             Could you tell us more or less where you are in terms of time?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I asked for four hours.  I am sure that I will finish

 3     in that time-frame.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That's understood.

 5             Mr. Trivic, I would like to instruct you that you should not

 6     speak or communicate in whatever way with whomever about your testimony,

 7     whether that is testimony you've given today or whether it's testimony

 8     still to be given tomorrow.  We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning

 9     at 9.30 in this same courtroom, III.  You may now follow the usher.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will abide by your

11     instructions.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow,

14     Wednesday, the 22nd of May, at 9.30 in the morning in this same

15     courtroom, III.

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 22nd day

18                           of May, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.