Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11332

 1                           Wednesday, 22 May 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 9     number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that there was one preliminary matter

12     the Prosecution wishes to raise.

13             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honours, and good morning.

14             Your Honours, could I ask that we go into private session for

15     this?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 11333











11 Page 11333 redacted. Private session.















Page 11334

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

 7     you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 9             Meanwhile I'll put a few things on the record.  First, in

10     relation to the 26th, 92 bis motion, we have granted the Defence's

11     request to respond to the Prosecution's 26th, 92 bis motion, but in Court

12     we gave the wrong date for the new dead-line.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That causes us now to the following.  When, on the

15     16th of May we granted the Defence request for the extension but provided

16     the wrong date for that new dead-line, we hereby decide that we granted

17     the request but the new dead-line is now set as the 31st of May, 2013.

18             And a second matter I would like to put on the record is that on

19     the 17th of May the Defence has requested a 60-day extension for the

20     dead-lines to respond to the Prosecution's 27th, 92 bis motion, and the

21     new dead-line is hereby set at the 16th of July of this year.

22             Good morning to you, Mr. Trivic.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Trivic, before we continue I'd like to remind

25     you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the

Page 11335

 1     beginning of your testimony that you will speak the truth, the whole

 2     truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3             Before Mr. Lukic continues his cross-examination, I would briefly

 4     like to deal with a matter which arose yesterday.  On the record we saw

 5     that you had referred to the evacuation of the Muslim population from

 6     Potocari and a few minutes later you denied to have said any of such

 7     thing, and I even suggested to you that you might consider that you may

 8     have said it but that -- that you do not exclude for that possibility.

 9     You insisted on it being verified.  It has been verified.  That means the

10     audio has been listened to and the translation has been verified.  This

11     is what you said:

12             "Thank you.  During that day at the meeting and during the

13     dinner, there was no talk of prisoners of war or disarmed enemy forces.

14     All that was discussed was the evacuation of the population, evacuation

15     of the Muslim population from Potocari."

16             That is what you said and that was how it was translated to us.

17     No need further to discuss that denying a couple of minutes later that

18     you had said this was a useless exercise.

19             Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

20             By the way, does the Defence want a full report, official memo,

21     or is this -- this is what we received by e-mail and that is -- a formal

22     memo would contain the same content.

23             MR. LUKIC:  If it's not too big hassle for Your Honours, we would

24     like that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll ask for an official memo.

Page 11336

 1             Please proceed.

 2                           WITNESS:  MIRKO TRIVIC [Resumed]

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning.  Shall we briefly just go back to

 6     this that His Honour, Judge Orie just read out.  Can you explain it now,

 7     whether this was discussed, whether this was not discussed.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear Mr. Lukic

 9     or the witness.  They were speaking at the same time.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  If you speak at the same time, then

11     there will be no transcript and no translation.

12             Mr. Lukic, if you would please re-introduce your question.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript I shall repeat

14     this.

15        Q.   Can you explain to us now at this meeting whether civilians were

16     discussed, whether transportation was discussed at all, whether prisoners

17     of war were discussed, disarmed enemy forces?  Could you please explain

18     this to us if you can?

19        A.   With the permission of the Chamber, I would like to explain.

20     Obviously, it is necessary to say which meeting this was.  Yesterday, I

21     believe, as I gave this some thought during the break when this

22     misunderstanding occurred, you asked about the meeting in Fontana, and I

23     was not in Fontana on the 12th of July.  Hence --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  There is no way.  There is no way that the questions

25     were about the meeting in Fontana.  The questions were about the

Page 11337

 1     headquarters, where the meeting took place, the dinner after that, and

 2     not Fontana.  I think I said this yesterday.  If one of the persons in

 3     this courtroom misspoke a few minutes later, you -- that doesn't change

 4     the subject of the question and a clear subject of the answer.  So such

 5     an explanation is not something the Chamber is interested in.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I try to answer your question

 7     now.  That evening at the meeting at the command of the Bratunac Brigade

 8     on the evening of the 12th, there was no reference to evacuation except

 9     for the part that General Mladic dealt with as the provision of fuel for

10     the evacuation of the population and nothing else.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Thank you.  You have been using a term here and the Judges asked

13     you about that as well.  Why do you say "disarmed enemy forces"?

14     Somewhere in your statements I found the source of that term, so could

15     you explain that to us.  What is the source of that term?  Who is it that

16     you are referring to?

17        A.   Yes.  The source of that term is what General Dwight Eisenhower

18     did - the commander of the Allied Forces in 1945 - vis-a-vis the German

19     forces in the occupation zone when -- in the area where -- that was under

20     his control.  He declared these forces "disarmed enemy forces" rather

21     than "prisoners of war."  They were found as such as they were

22     withdrawing from the areas that they were trying to occupy.

23        Q.   Actually, we interrupted my line of questioning when I asked you

24     about Nova Kasaba.  We established that you travelled by car and I was

25     not clear enough when I asked whether you had gotten out of the car.  I

Page 11338

 1     should have asked you whether you got out of the car in Nova Kasaba.  You

 2     said that you did not leave the car at all, but let us just confirm now

 3     whether you left the car in Nova Kasaba.

 4        A.   I did not leave the vehicle that I was in.  I did not leave it in

 5     Nova Kasaba.

 6        Q.   Since you did not leave the car, would you agree with me that you

 7     did not have a good view of the sports ground and you could not assess

 8     the number of people who were there?

 9        A.   I could not estimate the number of people who were there.  I did

10     not have a very good view as the vehicle just stopped briefly.  It was

11     not possible to reach such a conclusion.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put an additional question, Mr. Lukic.

14             Why did the car stop briefly?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, the vehicle stopped because

16     of the commotion on the road and other vehicles that were coming and

17     different persons who were on both sides of the road, including

18     cameramen, journalists, and other vehicles in front, and due to the

19     impossibility to get through without stopping briefly because of the

20     driving in a column.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Could we now briefly go back to the 11th of July.  We are going

24     to watch the a video-clip.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of Ms. Stewart,

Page 11339

 1     could we please see V000-9265 from 24 minutes, 46 seconds, to 30 minutes.

 2     That's a bit more than five minutes.

 3        Q.   So please watch this and then I'll ask you something afterwards.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Can we stop for a sec.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] The man who is congratulating General Mladic,

 7     that is you; right?

 8        A.   The one who proffered his hand now?

 9        Q.   Yes, on the left-hand side.

10        A.   That is the president of the municipality, Milanco Pajic [phoen],

11     on my left side.  I'm the one with the white ribbon tied.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] We'll take a look at another video-clip as well,

15     the next one.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] V000-9265, from 31 minutes, 24

17     seconds, to 31 minutes, 54 seconds, that's half a minute.

18             [In English] Can we start now, please.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   We see in these video-clips that General Mladic persistently

22     insists that they go straight to Bratunac the same moment you are

23     cautioning him.  Vinko Pandurevic is cautioning him as well.  However, he

24     continues to insist, right?  That is what you recall from the field?

25        A.   Yes, that is obvious from this footage.

Page 11340

 1        Q.   On that day, was it possible to get to Bratunac?  Is it correct

 2     that it was impossible to get through Potocari because of the fighting

 3     that was taking place?

 4        A.   The assessment of Pandurevic, probably.  I was not assessing that

 5     area because I did not have a task to go through town that morning.  I

 6     was supposed to secure, I think, the western hills, the hills on the west

 7     side and that was my task, and that's why I said to him that my task was

 8     not to go through Potocari to Bratunac.  It wasn't that it was -- that I

 9     was supposed to go through Potocari as such.  I mean, it was just the

10     direction that was specified.  Potocari then Bratunac.  Obviously

11     Vinko Pandurevic who had already had some insight into what was going on

12     in Potocari, then he cautioned that one should not go to Potocari.  That

13     Potocari should be avoided, let me put it that way, because of the people

14     who had assembled there at the base.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, just for my understanding, the last

16     observations by the witness, did I miss something or is that not

17     specifically found in the video-clip that was played?

18             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know what you mean, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The last -- what the witness said is -- let me see.

20     It's about Vinko Pandurevic "cautioned that one should not go to

21     Potocari ... Potocari should be avoided ..."

22             Is that audible or have I missed something in the video?

23             MR. LUKIC:  No, it's not audible.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not in the video.

25             MR. LUKIC:  No, it's not on the video.

Page 11341

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just to briefly save some time, perhaps the

 3     witness could identify what a Browning is that Mr. Pandurevic refers to.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if that assists.  I thought a Browning to be a

 5     weapon that -- is that -- what is a Browning, Mr. Trivic?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To my knowledge, a Browning is an

 7     anti-aircraft machine-gun.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We pronounce it slightly different.

10     In the Serbian we say "Browing."

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, I would like to have a little question.

12             Your question that triggered the witness's answer at page 9,

13     lines 4 to 14, you said:

14             "On that day, was it possible to get to Bratunac?  Is it correct

15     that it was impossible to get through Potocari because of the fighting

16     that was taking place?"

17             Was there fighting taking place?

18             MR. LUKIC:  I will verify that.  Obviously the witness gave

19     another reason, but I asked him, he would -- he answered the way he

20     answered.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I'm asking you:  Is it your position that

22     there was fighting taking place at --

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes -- well not at Potocari, but in between

24     Srebrenica and Potocari it wasn't safe to pass.  That's my understanding.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

Page 11342

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   I apologise, I've to ask you this:  Except for the fact that

 3     there were people in Potocari, you said that Vinko Pandurevic suggested

 4     not to go through Potocari because of them.  Could one still hear

 5     shooting?  Was there still combat under way?

 6        A.   Sporadically.  You could hear firing and it didn't lead me to a

 7     conclusion that there was intensive fighting.  I don't know though why

 8     there was still some shooting.

 9        Q.   Let's take a look at another excerpt, because I wanted to ask you

10     precisely about shootings.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we go to V000-9265, 32 minutes,

12     37 seconds, to 33 minutes, 12 seconds.

13             [In English] Can we start please.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Were you present when fire was opened on General Mladic in

17     Srebrenica on this occasion?

18        A.   I did not continue moving along with his group.  As you could see

19     in one portion of the footage, I was trying to establish contact with my

20     part of the unit and I joined them.  In other words, I no longer stayed

21     in town.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Do you have some indirect knowledge as to who opened

23     fire at General Mladic?

24        A.   From some later conversations on the 3rd day, and especially on

25     the 13th when I found myself again in Srebrenica in the morning, and I

Page 11343

 1     noted it down in my diary, not my knowledge in terms of opening fire but

 2     the fact that I was in town -- sorry, it was the 12th in the morning when

 3     I directed my fighters to engage at the last part of the task, and I

 4     noted down that there was a lot of plundering.  And then the commanding

 5     officers who met in town commented yesterday that fire had been opened at

 6     General Mladic as he was moving through Srebrenica.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Let me move on to Zepa and ask you about that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The simple answer to the question would have been:

 9     I don't know.  The question was whether you have indirect knowledge as to

10     who opened fire.  I mean, that fire was opened was already visible on

11     these -- so the simple answer would have been no.  At least in your

12     answer you give no further clue as to who did it.

13             Let's proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Let us move on.  In the environs of Zepa you saw

16     General Ratko Mladic, did you not?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   You saw him for the first time on the 19th of July, 1995;

19     correct?

20        A.   Perhaps you could jog my memory.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could Mr. Lukic repeat his

22     question.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you're invited by the interpreters to

24     repeat your question.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry.

Page 11344

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you see General Mladic at Boksanica?  Or

 2     perhaps correct me if you remember something else.

 3        A.   Let me tell you:  I saw General Mladic in one situation.  As I

 4     was moving to Zepa in a vehicle, I encountered him on a road where he

 5     took part providing assistance and advice on how to pullout a UN armoured

 6     combat vehicle out of a ditch.  That was the first time I saw him I

 7     believe.  The second time was in the settlement itself in Zepa.  When I

 8     went down there.  He was with another group of officers such as

 9     Colonel Andric and others.  We met there, exchanged a few words, greeted,

10     and I turned back.

11        Q.   Thank you.  When did you set out to -- for Zepa, on the 12th or

12     the 13th?

13        A.   My unit and I went to Zepa on the 13th of July.

14        Q.   You wanted to ask that your unit be replaced, but you couldn't do

15     that for as long as there was combat; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Who at the end did you ask that your unit be rotated or changed?

18     Or let me put it this way:  Is it true that you asked General Krstic

19     that?

20        A.   I asked of General Krstic to approve that my unit be replaced in

21     Zepa; however, he disagreed.

22        Q.   What kind of intelligence did you have in terms of what ABiH

23     forces were present in Zepa?

24        A.   In the contents of the brief tasks that were issued as early as

25     Viogor, an assessment was stated to me that there were around 1200

Page 11345

 1     members of the Zepa Brigade present awaiting us in the implementation of

 2     our following -- further task.  Another assessment was that there were

 3     additional 700 soldiers from Srebrenica who managed to break through to

 4     the area of Zepa, so up to 2.000 armed men or fighters.

 5        Q.   In the order to attack the enclave of Zepa of the 13th of July,

 6     1995, was anything changed in terms of treatment of UNPROFOR members and

 7     civilians, or were the instructions and orders the same as in the order

 8     pertaining to Srebrenica?

 9        A.   As regards the treatment of civilians and UNPROFOR, there were no

10     changes.  The requests and orders were still in place.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we see in e-court 65 ter

12     number 4103.

13        Q.   I just wanted you to get acquainted with the document.  Let's

14     look at the heading.  It is an order of the Drina Corps command from the

15     forward command post at Krivace dated the 13th of July, 1995; correct?

16     Do you see that?

17        A.   I do.

18        Q.   It says:  "Order to attack the Zepa enclave, Operation Number 1."

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 3 in the B/C/S and 4 in

20     the English version of this document.  Page 3 in the B/C/S, I apologise.

21     Page 3 in the B/C/S, please, because on this page we see 4 at the top.

22     Can we go to the previous page, please.  Thank you.

23        Q.   Just below item (c), the second paragraph, it reads:

24             [As read] "The civilian Muslim population and UNPROFOR are not

25     the targets of our operations.  Gather them and keep them under guard and

Page 11346

 1     crush and destroy armed Muslim groups."

 2             Did you abide by this order of the Drina Corps command in the

 3     field?

 4        A.   Yes.  Any changes were not done and were not required.

 5        Q.   While you were in the field, this order was not changed in terms

 6     of any other oral orders being issued subsequently?

 7        A.   No, this order did not change.

 8        Q.   Is it correct that fire was opened from an UNPROFOR APC on your

 9     forces from the Borak position?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Since I am finished

12     with this document, I seek to tender it.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  D290, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  In e-court we need 1D978.

17        Q.   We will have on the screen an ABiH document.  We see that the

18     document is dated the 16th of July, 1995.  The tenth line from the top of

19     the page you will find the following sentence:

20             "We are disarming UNPROFOR in accordance with the directive we

21     received earlier."

22             The document is signed by Commander Avdo Palic.  Did you have

23     occasion to see that UNPROFOR weaponry exchanged hands in Zepa; that is

24     to say, that it ended up with the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25        A.   No.

Page 11347

 1        Q.   In other words, you believed that UNPROFOR opened fire at you?

 2        A.   Yes.  It was my belief at the time that it was UNPROFOR engaging

 3     us.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May this document be admitted too as

 6     the next Defence exhibit.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  D291, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  D291 is admitted.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Next can we have 1D794 in e-court.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  1D974.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   It is a document of the Drina Corps command dated the 24th of

14     July, 1995.  It contains intelligence information on the enemy in the

15     Zepa and Gorazde enclaves.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's go to the bottom of the first

17     page in the B/C/S and in the English as well, although we'll have to move

18     to page 2 in the English version as well.

19        Q.   Counting from the bottom of the page, it is the 16th line in the

20     B/C/S.  It reads:

21             "Muslims --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues]...

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You asked for the next page in the English.

24             MR. LUKIC:  First page in the English version.  It's sixth line

25     from the bottom of the page.  "In any case ..."

Page 11348

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] So:

 2             "In any case for four days now the Muslims have been making their

 3     presence known with heavy 14.5-mm anti-aircraft machine-guns (which were

 4     at 00/as printed).  Reserve ammunition was at about 25.000 to 30.000

 5     rounds, likewise, coaxial 7.62-mm light machine-guns of the PKT type,

 6     with around 40.000 rounds, were probably also dismounted from the OT.

 7     The Ukrainian check-points also had 40-mm hand-held rocket-launchers of

 8     the RGP type of nine pieces in total.  3 RBR were equipped with nine

 9     tactical devices.  They had at least 12.040 MM rockets in their reserves.

10     By seizing the personal weapons and equipment of UN personnel, the

11     Muslims probably acquired the following firearms."

12             My question is:  In the course of fighting around Zepa, were your

13     units exposed to the action of such weapons?

14        A.   Yes.  We could feel their operation for a few days.  It was

15     impossible to approach the facility where the APC and the observation

16     post of UNPROFOR forces was.

17        Q.   It reads here that PAMs, P-A-M-s, what are they?

18        A.   Anti-aircraft machine-guns.

19        Q.   If we go to the top of the page.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We'll have to go to the first page in

21     the English version now.

22        Q.   Somewhere around the middle you will see is sentence: "The firing

23     system of defence ..."

24             It says here that:

25             "The Muslim forces have also incorporated UNPROFOR combat

Page 11349

 1     hardware and weapons which they obtained following the recent blockade

 2     and capture of the Ukrainian check-points into their defensive arsenal.

 3     We believe that at least nine OT with the accompanying weapons and

 4     ammunition are in the hands of the Muslim soldiers."

 5             First of all, what is this "OT," do you know?

 6        A.   This abbreviation, "OT," is used for an armoured vehicle.

 7        Q.   Did you know that at that time in the area around Zepa the Muslim

 8     forces captured the posts of the Ukrainian soldiers?

 9        A.   That was referred to, but my personal estimate is that up until

10     it was all over it was UNPROFOR that was firing and it seemed quite

11     impossible for that to happen.

12        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We'd like to tender this document as

14     well.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  1D974 becomes D292, Your Honours.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  With the absence of any objections, D292 is

18     admitted.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we need the second page of this

20     document, although we've already admitted it.  The third paragraph

21     towards the bottom of the paragraph, and it's paragraph 4 on page 2 of

22     the English version.  There is a reference to the civilian population.

23     So in B/C/S the third paragraph towards the bottom.  In the English

24     version it's page 2, paragraph 4, towards the bottom.

25        Q.   It says:

Page 11350

 1             "The civilian population was mostly evacuated towards the central

 2     part of the enclave, Sijamici plateau [phoen], Zepske Kolibe, Debelo

 3     Brdo."

 4             At the time did you know that the civilian population had been

 5     evacuated from the combat zone?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For the time being we won't be

 9     needing this document anymore.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one additional question in this context.

11             You said that you didn't know that the civilian population was

12     mostly evacuated towards the central part of the enclave.  Talking about

13     Zepa, was that part of what you were ordered to do?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received the following order -- I

15     mean, if you mean the document that I saw, the order to attack the

16     enclave and the estimated forces that await us in that area.  I did not

17     expect -- or rather, I did not know where the civilian population was.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  My question was not whether you knew where they were

19     at the time, but my question was what you were ordered to do with the

20     civilian population in Zepa, because you said:

21             "I didn't know that they were mostly evacuated to the central

22     part of the enclave."

23             My question is:  What had been your instructions, what had been

24     your orders, in this respect?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in accordance with what we

Page 11351

 1     had been asked to do; namely, act in a way that would not harm the

 2     civilian population or the UN forces, so a correct attitude.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Not to harm them is one, but what were you supposed

 4     to do with them, I mean, even if not in a harmful way?  Was it leave them

 5     at home or leave them -- what was your instruction?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the area of defence that was

 7     organised by the Zepa Brigade, my conclusion, or rather, the conclusion

 8     of the person who was issuing the task was that in the deployment of

 9     combat forces there is certain, you know, civilian population.  Now,

10     where that unit is that -- where that unit that is conducting the defence

11     moved its civilian population so that they would not be in harm's way

12     during combat, I did not think about that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, what you thought about -- what was the order

14     you received in relation to the civilian population?  What to do with

15     them apart from not harming them, et cetera, but what were you supposed

16     to do with them?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were supposed to inform the

18     superior command that is in charge of the operation that we came across a

19     group of civilians in the village or in a house and that they should take

20     them over from the area where combat is taking place, and then they

21     should organise their removal from the combat zone, if we do come across

22     such persons.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  So if I read in the order that you were ordered to

24     collect them together and to keep them under guard, that is not what you

25     remember to have been your order?

Page 11352

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me.  Today I did read that

 2     but I did not have an opportunity of acting in this way.  That's why I

 3     don't remember it.  I did not come across any civilians.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  My question was not what you did.  My question was

 5     what you were ordered to do, and for one reason or another you now tell

 6     me that you remember that you read that in the order a second ago because

 7     you said:

 8             "Today I did read that ..."

 9             So it's totally unclear to me why you apparently avoid answering

10     a direct question in this respect where you reviewed the order a minute

11     ago and apparently had read this.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

13             At the same time, I see that it's perhaps time for a break.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe just to clarify the question.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   This order, did it pertain to the total population of Zepa or

18     only civilians that you come across during combat?

19        A.   This order pertained to the entire population of Zepa.

20        Q.   The agreement on the population was reached only later, what

21     would happen to the entire population; is that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   We're going to deal with that after the break.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break.  Could the witness be escorted out

25     of the courtroom.

Page 11353

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No speaking audible, no gestures, Mr. Mladic.

 3             We'll take a break and we'll resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, while the witness is being brought in,

10     just to bring to the Chamber's attention if it hasn't seen the e-mail

11     that we sent that we will be making an application to add the protective

12     measure of voice distortion.

13             Mr. Lukic informs me that he believes he will be busy this entire

14     session, and then I believe we have some redirect examination.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. GROOME:  So it may not arise until next session.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I would suggest that in case we might

19     decide for that that already, perhaps, preparations are made.

20             MR. LUKIC:  We do not object.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You do not object.  Then that's the more reason,

22     then, to already prepare, perhaps not yet but next session but that

23     everybody is ready then to prepare for it.

24             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 11354

 1             Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'll just have to go back

 3     to D290 very briefly.  Could we please have it in e-court.  I don't know

 4     whether this is due to language differences, but I'm going to try to get

 5     a clarification from the witness.

 6        Q.   Mr. Trivic, you see which document this is.  We've gone back to

 7     the order of the command of the Drina Corps of the 13th of July, 1995, to

 8     attack the Zepa enclave in both documents.  Since the third page is as

 9     the fourth one in e-court.  So in both documents we need the fourth page

10     in e-court.  We need that part below letter C, the second paragraph of C

11     where it says:

12             "The civilian Muslim population and UNPROFOR are not targets of

13     our operations.  Collect them together and keep them under guard ..."

14             Does this order mean that UNPROFOR and civilians should be taken

15     prisoner, or does it mean that they should be given protection?  How do

16     you understand this document?

17        A.   My understanding is that this is very clear.  Collect them,

18     provide them with protection.  But if you're asking about UNPROFOR, it is

19     protection.

20        Q.   What about civilians, protect or take prisoner?

21        A.   It's clear here.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters do not understand Mr. Lukic.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The interpreters did not understand you, Mr. Lukic.

24     Could you please repeat what you just said.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 11355

 1        Q.   Does the same go for the population and for UNPROFOR?  So does

 2     the same go for the population and UNPROFOR, that both should be

 3     collected and secured or should they be collected and arrested?

 4        A.   The language here uses the verb "collect" and that has nothing to

 5     do with "taken prisoner."  "Secure," "obezbedjenje," is "protection,"

 6     quite simply.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, would you like to have the translation

 9     reviewed because that's not what the translation is.  Then you should ask

10     for it and then --

11             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, please.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- we'll see whether --

13             MR. LUKIC:  I think there is some confusion in English

14     translation.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Your question is whether "keep them under

16     guard" is the accurate translation of the original.  This will be

17     verified.

18             MR. LUKIC:  I have a suggestion.  My translation, how I

19     understand it, and it can be verified, is "protect by guard."

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I do understand that that's your translation.

21             MR. LUKIC:  It can be verified.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That's -- we'll --

23             MR. LUKIC:  That's probably why there was a confusion before.

24     There is a slight difference --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 11356

 1             MR. LUKIC:  -- in between English and Serbian.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The whole thing is I asked what the orders were and

 3     the witness did not respond to that.  And that they had to be collected,

 4     for example, appears not to be in dispute.  He didn't say a word about

 5     that and that is apparently part of the order as well.  But we'll have

 6     the translation, and we'll ask specific attention to the fact whether

 7     "keep them under guard" should be understood as to "protect them by

 8     providing guards to them," or whether it is just plainly as it is

 9     translated now into English.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And we'll have to interpret that for ourselves.  We

12     have to -- that will be done.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I just for a clarification, not in relation

16     to the guarding of the population, but can you explain how you understood

17     the word "collect them together," how to collect civilian population?

18     What was the idea behind?  By which means should that happen, to collect

19     civilian population?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That means that they should be kept

21     in a certain area, kept.  They should be enabled to stay in a certain

22     area which has a guard service; that is to say, has guards.  So it is

23     surrounded by guards so soldiers cannot approach the area; that is to

24     say, soldiers who collected them.  That is to say, soldiers who are not

25     guards, and they cannot leave either until a report is sent to superiors

Page 11357

 1     and until they are sent to a certain place from that area.  So they are

 2     provided with protection and they are grouped in a certain area that has

 3     around its boundaries some guards.  It doesn't have to be a building.  It

 4     can just be an area, an open area.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And how did you carry out this task at that point

 6     in time?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you referring to me personally

 8     and to my unit, or generally?

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Both.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not in that situation in the

11     area of Zepa.  I did not get into that kind of situation.  But in the

12     area of Srebrenica, yesterday when speaking about my --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, I'm not talking of --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- treatment of --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry, not asking about --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  That way --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I am not asking you about Srebrenica.  I've got

18     the information I wanted to get.  Thank you.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Now we're going to move on in relation to the Zepa operation.

21     You marked the direction in which you were moving by burning hay stacks;

22     right?

23        A.   Yes, the direction and the lines that we reached.

24        Q.   Why was that done?

25        A.   Quite simply that's what was necessary because of the terrain

Page 11358

 1     where the combat is taking place.  It was necessary to show someone on

 2     the other hill where the line was, or rather, where the soldiers were

 3     that had reached that area.

 4        Q.   Since some houses were set on fire you were asked to identify the

 5     perpetrators and punish them; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   You ascertained that no member of your unit was engaged in it and

 8     you so reported to your superiors; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   You also reported it to General Krstic; correct?

11        A.   Yes.  I reported it to the forward command post where he was by

12     communications.  I reported it to the command post.

13        Q.   At some point in time an agreement was signed with the Muslim

14     side in Zepa on the cessation of hostilities, correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we go back to one of your previous questions

17     and the answers to that.  You said it was necessary to mark the direction

18     in which you were moving by burning haystacks.  That's how I understood

19     your testimony.

20             In order to achieve that, to mark the direction in which you were

21     moving, should it be haystacks or could it be any other small type of

22     fire which would do less damage to the owners of the terrain?  I'm

23     wondering what makes it necessary to use haystacks for that?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to be brief and clear.  We

25     were not marking the direction but only the point which we reached.  The

Page 11359

 1     area was such that there was a lot of hay around in piles in the area

 2     where the Zepa cottages were.  That was only way, the only means that

 3     could be used.  Something that could be easily set on fire in order to

 4     show where the line was where the unit is.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just try to understand.  I understand the

 6     haystack to be the place where the hay is put together in order to be

 7     saved for later nourishing the cattle.  Is that what we both understand

 8     to be a haystack?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And some fire with some little pieces of wood,

11     et cetera, would not do?  You have to burn a haystack in order to

12     indicate where you are?  Is that your testimony, that that is necessary?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there were no trees.  These

14     were meadows, fields that one could come up to and people simply gathered

15     hay.  It was in the area of the Zepa cottages.  It is quite a large area

16     of land where grass had been cut and hay was stacked together in piles.

17     There was nothing else one could set on fire.  It would have been

18     dangerous to set a tree on fire because it could reach the forest;

19     however, stacks of hay could be controlled in terms of containing the

20     fire.  Let me add this:  Those haystacks were far from big.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  These were not haystacks close to the houses, to the

22     farms?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the area of Zepske Kolibe, the

24     Zepa cottages, is specific to the area of Zepa.  It is in a valley where

25     the settlements are, and there is 500 metres difference in altitude.  Up

Page 11360

 1     on top there is a plateau called Zepske Kolibe.  There were meadows there

 2     where people held livestock and gathered hay in those pastures.  In

 3     summer-time the livestock was let loose on the pastures.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   After the agreement was signed, the Muslim forces in Zepa

 7     continued fighting; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Under the agreement, the civilian population was supposed to be

10     transported out of the Zepa enclave according to the agreement signed by

11     the Serbian and Muslim side?

12        A.   Yes.  That is how we, the subordinate officers, were informed of

13     how it should take place.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I don't remember any agreement concerning

16     Zepa to be in evidence, so therefore it's difficult for me to follow and

17     evaluate the -- but it may be that I'm wrong.

18             MR. LUKIC:  No, no, I don't think that it's in the evidence, but

19     this witness obviously has no knowledge about the agreement.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but if you ask questions about it, then, of

21     course, we may be interested in [overlapping speakers]

22             MR. LUKIC:  It's part of the 65 ter, I'm sure.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, as you're aware, Zepa is very

25     intimately linked to Srebrenica in many ways, and therefore I've not

Page 11361

 1     objected thus far.  At the same time, the central issues he's bringing up

 2     are rather significant and would take many months in a courtroom to sort

 3     out.  I don't intend to try to do that on redirect, and I won't go into

 4     some of them, but I just wanted to alert you to that.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm not insisting on anything, but if any

 6     further -- you want the Chamber to pay any further attention to an

 7     agreement about which you are asking questions, then, of course, we'd

 8     like to see it.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I see.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  But if you would like to leave it to this then--

11             MR. LUKIC:  I'm leaving exactly.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please continue.

13             MR. LUKIC:  I am just going to show one video that is in the

14     evidence, that's Srebrenica trial video.  We need V000-9265.  And I would

15     again ask the assistance of Ms. Stewart.  We need that video from

16     32 minutes, 37 seconds, up to 33 minutes, 12 seconds.  Can we start.

17             Oh, sorry, wrong numbering.  We need V000-9268, 6 minutes,

18     15 seconds, up to 7 minutes, 48 seconds.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Concerning this, let me ask you the following:  Did you know that

22     the transport was organised, among others, by UNPROFOR as well?

23        A.   Yes.  That's what we were told.

24        Q.   You were not present when it was taking place; correct?

25        A.   No, I wasn't present.  But I did encounter some of the vehicles

Page 11362

 1     transporting the people as I was going to Zepa that day.

 2        Q.   When was this organised?  Do you recall it?

 3        A.   I think after the signing on the 19th or the 20th, after the

 4     subordinates had received information that there was a truce and that

 5     evacuation of the population would ensue as well as the disarming of the

 6     forces of the Zepa Brigade, and the route was Siversko [phoen] and

 7     Rogatica, I believe.

 8        Q.   After the civilians left -- after the civilians left, you told us

 9     already that the armed forces of the ABiH did not surrender and fighting

10     continued.  Your task was to break through via Zepske Kolibe; correct?

11        A.   Yes, I received my task to continue in the direction of the Borak

12     and Zepske Kolibe.

13        Q.   And in the course of that operation you were wound?

14        A.   On the last day of fighting, the 29th of July, just below Zlovrh.

15     That is where I was wounded.

16        Q.   During the Zepa operation, some documents were issued by your

17     unit.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at 65 ter 25715.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm informed that there is no translation

20     in e-court available.  Is that ...

21             MR. LUKIC:  We are not going through the substance of the

22     documents.  I will just check the source and the signature, actually, and

23     the person who allegedly signed the document.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That's final.  But nevertheless the Chamber of

25     course would like to know what the content of the document is.

Page 11363

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I have one hard copy with me if it can help.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  A translation or --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  English translation.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- in English.  Yes, if a translation exists it

 5     should be uploaded, but for this moment we could work on the basis of

 6     a --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  This is the Prosecutor's 65 ter number document.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  If that's the case, then, of course, it's for the

 9     Prosecution to upload their translation.

10             Mr. McCloskey.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's being done, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At this very moment, I take it.  Yes.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   You see this document in the language we both read and write.

15     Let me ask you the following:  Was this document issued by the unit you

16     were in command of?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   It was issued on the 15th of July, 1995; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   At the bottom of the document, we see your name typed out since

21     this was obviously a telegram.  Such documents are not signed; correct?

22        A.   Yes.  It was sent by telegram, this report, to the Drina Corps

23     command and not the forward command post.  It was sent from the command

24     post of my brigade, and the commander's name is typed up as the person

25     responsible for the document.  It is not signed.  It is a regular report.

Page 11364

 1        Q.   The command of your unit at the time was in Knezina; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You were not in Knezina on the 15th of July; correct?

 4        A.   That is correct.  I was not there.

 5        Q.   You were in the area of Zepa?

 6        A.   I was there with a part of the unit which was engaged in

 7     implementing the tasks directed at the Zepa enclave.

 8        Q.   Yes, in the direction of Zepa.  It was customary, then, to place

 9     your name at the bottom of the document as the commander, although you

10     were not included in the drafting of this document; correct?

11        A.   Yes, it is.  The reason for it was that it was a regular combat

12     report which was sent daily concerning events in the area of defence.

13        Q.   The document that is on the screen, the regular combat report,

14     let me ask you this:  It was not sent to the Main Staff of the VRS;

15     correct?

16        A.   No, I don't think it was.  It is stated here that it went to the

17     Drina Corps command, to our superior command.

18        Q.   And it was standard procedure?

19        A.   Yes.  It is important to note that the commander is cited for

20     security reasons due to the possibility of electronic surveillance, thus

21     making it impossible for the enemy to know that the commander is absent

22     from the brigade.

23        Q.   You, as the brigade commander, were not in direct contact with

24     the Main Staff of the VRS as part of the chain of command; is that

25     correct?

Page 11365

 1        A.   No, not in the sense of performing combat operations.  However,

 2     when it comes to the responsibility for the situation in the area around

 3     the Main Staff, given the fact that the area where the Main Staff and the

 4     command post and the rear command post was in the area of defence of the

 5     2nd Romanija Brigade, in that regard we did report on certain events in

 6     the area of Defence because the brigade, in addition to other units, was

 7     responsible for the security and safety of the Main Staff and command

 8     post area and possible access to it.

 9        Q.   In that regard your brigade was characteristic as compared to the

10     other brigades of the Drina Corps?

11        A.   Yes, in territorial terms it was almost in the area of the

12     Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  However, in terms of functionality it was under

13     command of the Drina Corps.

14        Q.   Now I'd like to ask you something about directives.  We'll just

15     be discussing Directive 7 and Directive 7/1, and in relation to that, a

16     document of the Drina Corps that has to do with the beginning of the

17     operation regarding Srebrenica.

18             First of all, as for the character of the directive as a document

19     itself, I would like to ask you whether it is correct that the directive

20     is not a binding document, an executive document?

21        A.   Yes, that is correct.

22        Q.   Is it correct that it is very likely that parts of a directive

23     are never actually carried out?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Directives are documents that pertain to a longer period of time?

Page 11366

 1        A.   That's right, yes.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't know whether any of this has

 3     already been admitted into evidence, but I need Directive 7, 65 ter 4001.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  You will recall that the

 6     Krivaja 95 attack plan did cite to Directive 7 and 7/1 as the witness

 7     testified.  I asked him if he received it.  He said he did not.  And if

 8     he is now going to be testifying regarding his opinion regarding

 9     directives and those sorts of issues, if it's brief I will not object,

10     but if he's going to be testifying as an expert I would ask the questions

11     not to be leading and that it to be fairly limited in nature because that

12     has not been addressed to us in any form or any report or anything like

13     that.

14             To the degree he actually has knowledge that he received at the

15     time, of course, that's another matter.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, any objections against what Mr. McCloskey

17     suggests to you?

18             MR. LUKIC:  I will -- I will not ask for expert opinions.  I will

19     just compare what the various documents encompass.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  If the witness has any knowledge about it because

21     comparing documents, the Chamber is perfectly able to do that.  Unless

22     you have any specific factual questions of which the witness, who

23     apparently has not seen this document before, whether he has any specific

24     knowledge about matters in the document.  Then perhaps you first start

25     with asking about his knowledge, and only then proceed if there is any

Page 11367

 1     need to do so with the documents and the possible --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  There are some factual actual questions I just

 3     checked, but before we have to introduce them.  Just small parts of

 4     [Overlapping speakers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey -- keep it short so as for

 6     Mr. McCloskey not to --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Able to bear.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- start objecting.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] We have Directive 7 before us.  We accept that

12     you haven't seen it, but I would just briefly like to take you to --

13     well, actually, I don't know what it's like in e-court but the document I

14     have has an empty page after each printed page.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So I'd like to take a look at page 15

16     of this document.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  In e-court there are no empty pages.  In e-court?

18             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe there are, maybe there are not.  I don't know.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  There are not.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Then page 8.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Page 8 in e-court.

22             Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I apologise.  I think it's clear from the record

24     that he said he did not receive this document, that at this date in time

25     it's hard to imagine that he has not seen it.

Page 11368

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's wait and see what questions Mr. Lukic will put

 2     to the witness, but perhaps we clarify.

 3             Have you seen the document before, Witness?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  And in English version we need page 10.  The part --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think the -- oh, it's back now.  The B/C/S

 9     page.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   We are just going to discuss this part that has to do with the

12     Drina Corps.  This part of Directive 7 that was issued by the

13     Supreme Command of the armed forces of Republika Srpska says that the

14     operation regarding Srebrenica and Zepa should be carried out in

15     co-ordination with the SRK, that's the Sarajevo Romanija Corps; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   On the ground, while operations were carried out, was there

18     co-operation with the Sarajevo Romanija Corps or was it only the

19     Drina Corps that carried out this operation?

20        A.   In this operation of Srebrenica and Zepa, it was only the

21     Drina Corps that independently carried this out with its own forces,

22     these activities that is.

23        Q.   All right.  Is it correct that the Drina Corps could choose what

24     the most favourable way of carrying out this operation would be because

25     they did it on their own?

Page 11369

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Please go ahead.

 3        A.   This conclusion is based on this:  Through their active defence,

 4     so it's not that attacks were planned here, active defence of the

 5     Drina Corps and thus improve positions, and so on, not to read this

 6     further on.

 7        Q.   So the Drina Corps did not wait for the Main Staff to bring

 8     together the activities of the SRK and the Drina Corps.  Is that what you

 9     saw in the field?

10        A.   Yes, precisely.

11        Q.   Now, as for e-court --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I -- you move to another page?

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you testified that what we read here, that

15     it was for the Drina Corps itself to decide in which way to achieve what

16     was apparently intended.  Could you tell me what the various choices are,

17     what the various ways are to achieve what is written in the last three

18     lines; that is:

19             "By planned and well-thought-out combat operations, create an

20     unbearable situation of total insecurity with no hope of further survival

21     or life for the inhabitants of Srebrenica and Zepa."

22             Could you tell us what your options were to the various choices

23     you had to achieve this?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to respond from the level

25     of a brigade commander.  I said that I saw the document but I did not

Page 11370

 1     receive it then when it was written in 1995 and after it was made public,

 2     so I was not thinking about this.  It was the corps command that assessed

 3     how this should be done, and obviously their assessment was that by

 4     separating and narrowing the area of the enclaves would influence the

 5     population.  And then they would demand from their civilian and military

 6     leadership to have contact with the other side and that they would save

 7     themselves in this way but by not being prisoners of their own leaders.

 8     That would be the basis of my thinking on that.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It's rather unclear to me.  How would they save

10     themselves?  By leaving, is that what you mean to say?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they don't have to leave but

12     their status could be changed in that area.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And would that create a situation of total

14     insecurity with no hope of further survival or life?  You are giving a

15     picture where life would still be bearable for them in the area and that

16     seems not to be what is intended here.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I proceed?  Have you finished

18     your question?  Can I just add something?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This sentence, Mr. President, this

21     sentence was uttered in a somewhat different way as compared to the

22     terminology that is used by forces that are preparing to topple regimes

23     in different parts of the world.  These are sanctions, just phrased

24     differently.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  But is that your interpretation of the document?

Page 11371

 1     Where does it come from that you say this is what was meant despite the

 2     clear language of the document?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I haven't received this

 4     document, but I believe - it is my understanding of this - that these

 5     different activities through combat activities and through narrowing the

 6     area of the enclaves and interrupting communication between the two

 7     enclaves, the population should have a growing awareness of them being,

 8     in a way, prisoners of their own leaders and that, therefore, these

 9     leaders should be changed.

10             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would be the meaning of this.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You give the document a meaning which I have

13     difficulties in reconciling with the text of the document.

14             Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the first page of this

16     document again in e-court.

17        Q.   As you can see, it's clear to you, too -- but let us explain this

18     for us lay people that do not find all of this clear.  This document was

19     compiled by the Supreme Command of the armed forces of Republika Srpska.

20     This is a body that is different from the Main Staff of Republika Srpska;

21     is that correct?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's leading and it's absolutely not true.

Page 11372

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you refrain from leading, Mr. --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I'm doing cross.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  He knows very well that this document was

 4     compiled by the Main Staff, drafted by General Miletic, the chief of

 5     operations of General Mladic, and went through each of his assistant

 6     commanders, and to say otherwise is inappropriate.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you are at this moment in

 8     cross-examination but you are eliciting evidence in support of your own

 9     case rather than in -- rather than that you're challenging and testing

10     the evidence which was produced by the Prosecution.  Under those

11     circumstances, it's appropriate to refrain from leading.

12             And before we -- you ask any further questions about how this

13     document came about, you should first establish whether the witness has

14     any knowledge of it going beyond what the document itself says.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] What is written in this document?  What or who

19     is the source of this document, could you please tell us?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, what the source of the document is

21     according to the text, the Chamber can read.  So therefore, there is no

22     reason to ask the witness about that.  The document reads at the top that

23     it comes from the Supreme Command of the armed forces of Republika Srpska

24     and I take it that the witness is not -- has not a better ability of

25     reading that the Chamber has.

Page 11373

 1             MR. LUKIC:  [Microphone not activated]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Microphone, please.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you for having that on the record.

 4             Can we see the last page of the document, please.  There are

 5     empty pages here.  This is --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we see the last page of the English as well.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, but that's not the last page of the document.

 8     We have to go two pages ahead and this is only the letter that was sent

 9     with the main document.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This last page just cannot -- [Microphone not

11     activated], sorry, this last page does tell us drafted by

12     Colonel Radivoje Miletic.

13             MR. LUKIC:  No, no.  We'll get to that as well.  This is the last

14     page of the document.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The last page in e-court is -- apparently we are not

16     talking about -- are we talking about one document or more documents?

17             MR. LUKIC:  Obviously there are two documents in the e-court.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Where does the second document start in e-court,

19     Mr. Lukic, because --

20             MR. LUKIC:  If that --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- if you want to look at the first page and then at

22     the last page --

23             MR. LUKIC:  I've asked --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- then of course that--

25             MR. LUKIC:  -- the last page of this document, not of the e-court

Page 11374

 1     document.  I'm not interested about the e-court now.  I want to see the

 2     last page of the documents on our screen.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's what page in e-court?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  There are empty pages.  I thought that there were.

 5     And we can see, and it's very hard to follow, and I can count them.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I have e-court in front of me.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I see the first page of this document.  I see --

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Registrar can help us, I think.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it's page 21 in B/C/S and page 15

11     in English version in the e-court.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And these are on the screen now.

13             MR. LUKIC:  These are on the screen, yes.  Thank you.

14             Since there are --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I nevertheless would very much like to identify

18     exactly what we have.  I have on page 1 in e-court, I have a document

19     which apparently originates from the Main Staff of the Army of the

20     Republika Srpska, very urgent, directive for upcoming operations --

21             MR. LUKIC:  Sent.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and it is --

23             MR. LUKIC:  Directive for upcoming operations sent.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, Mr. Lukic.  I am not finished yet.

25     Directive for upcoming operations.  Enclosed with this document we are

Page 11375

 1     sending you the directive for further operations number 7.  Okay.  That

 2     is signed by the Chief of Staff Manojlo Milovanovic.  That's the first

 3     page.  Then on the second page I look at what is a document which

 4     apparently originates from the Supreme Command of the armed forces of

 5     Republika Srpska, special defence, state secret.  That is the document

 6     you showed us a minute ago and of which I said the Chamber is able to

 7     read what its origin is.  Then the following pages seem all to be still

 8     part of that document which starts at page 2 in e-court, and that

 9     document ends on page 15 - so it's not a letter but it is the document

10     apparently sent through that letter by -- signed and stamped

11     Supreme Commander, Dr. Radovan Karadzic.  And just above that it says:

12             "Drafted by Colonel Radivoje Miletic, typed by staff sergeant

13     Spasoje Zeljkovic."

14             That is what we have in e-court.  One-page letter, one in

15     English, 14-page document, apparently coming from that Supreme Command,

16     signed by Mr. Karadzic, drafted, as the document says, by

17     Colonel Radivoje Miletic and typed by Zeljkovic.  That's what we have.

18             MR. LUKIC:  In English version.  In B/C/S version first comes

19     document and then cover letter.  So that's the confusion.  There are

20     empty pages as well.  So it's very hard to follow this document, the

21     Prosecutor's document.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently - and that seems to be the dispute - who

23     drafted the document which was issued by the Supreme Command?

24             MR. LUKIC:  I will cover that as well.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  But that apparently was the issue and we

Page 11376

 1     could ask the witness whether he has any knowledge about it.  And if the

 2     order of the documents in B/C/S is different from English in e-court,

 3     then that should be changed.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  We cannot change it.  It's a Prosecutor's document --

 5     Prosecution document, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And to clarify the point, Mr. Lukic is correct.

 8     This is, as you know, the ERN process and so it got ERN'd in the -- in

 9     this different order than it is from the B/C/S and the English.  So

10     that's created the sort of glitch.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It has no empty pages.  It has the back of the

12     pages, I take it, with ERN stamps on it.  But that is to be clarified.

13             Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

14             Apparently Mr. --

15             MR. LUKIC:  One second.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No loud speaking, microphone off, whispering.

17                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   First of all, let me ask you this:  There is a reference to

20     someone drafting the directive and the person in question is

21     Radivoje Miletic.  Was Radivoje Miletic Ratko Mladic's assistant or was

22     he an operative in the Main Staff?

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection, leading.

24             MR. LUKIC:  It is leading, so what?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I said before that if you want to elicit evidence in

Page 11377

 1     support of your own case, not testing the evidence presented by the

 2     Prosecution, that it would be appropriate from refraining from leading;

 3     that is, the two different subject matters which can be touched upon in

 4     cross-examination.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you know what the position of Radivoje Miletic was at the

 7     time?

 8        A.   I do.  Colonel Miletic was the chief of the operations organ in

 9     the Main Staff.  In other words, he was subordinated to the

10     Chief of Staff, General Milovanovic.  He was not an assistant.

11        Q.   I'm trying to find Directive 7/1.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have

13     65 ter number 5821 received from the Prosecution.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if we move to Directive 7/1, perhaps it

15     would be better to take a break first.

16             MR. LUKIC:  That's fair.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

18     We take a break of 20 minutes.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 10 minutes past 12.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 11.52 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 12.16 p.m.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

24             Mr. Lukic, may I inquire as far as time is concerned where you

25     are?

Page 11378

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I am informed that I have 50 minutes left but I'll

 2     probably finish in less than half an hour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, whether you had all that time left is still to

 4     be seen, but if you finish in half an hour the Chamber accepts that.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You said 15 or 50?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  50, 5-0.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.  My comment was on what I heard, that is

10     about 50.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Are you ready to continue?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   We saw that Colonel Miletic drafted Resolution 7.  As regards

16     documents of that kind, is it the person drafting it that is responsible

17     for it or is it the person who signs it?

18        A.   In order to answer this question, I need to remind you of the

19     duty held by Colonel Miletic.  He was the chief of the operations organ.

20     This document in terms of its content was not the result of

21     Colonel Miletic's thought process --

22             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The decisions and positions

24     presented therein --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  No, the question simply was about, as Mr. Lukic

Page 11379

 1     said, kind of documents, I take it that he refers to directives or

 2     similar, whether it is the person drafting who bears final responsibility

 3     or whether it's the person signing.  That's the question.  Which of the

 4     two -- or, if there is any third option, tell us, but do not start

 5     testifying about the content of the document.

 6             Mr. McCloskey.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I apologise, Mr. President.  You said "final

 8     responsibility" --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I did, yes.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I am not sure Mr. Lukic did, but responsibility

11     is an issue.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I have to -- I should phrase the question exactly as

13     Mr. Lukic did it in this respect, and I'll re-read what it was.  Let me

14     see.  The question is:

15             "These kind of documents, is it the person drafting it that is

16     responsible for it or is it the person who signs it?"

17             Could you answer that question?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I wanted to say that

19     Colonel Miletic did not draft this document.  It did not put it together.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He is responsible --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You can answer the question now whether he drafted

23     it or not.  Do you have any personal knowledge about who drafted it?

24     Were you there when it was drafted?  Then please tell us.  Simple

25     question:  Were you there when it was drafted?

Page 11380

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In terms of the content of the

 2     document, it is the person signing it who is responsible; that is to

 3     say --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for answering my question.

 5             Mr. Lukic, that's the question you -- I think you put to the

 6     witness.  If there are any follow-up questions, of course you are free to

 7     put them to the witness.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Is it correct that the ideas and thoughts and concepts of the

10     person belonged to the person signing the document?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is classic expert testimony which I don't

13     mind, but I would like it, in this case, to be leading -- not -- not

14     because he's necessarily bringing out his case, which I think is find,

15     but because this is well beyond his case.  This is expert testimony

16     without a report.  And to save time, no problem, but please I would ask

17     for non-leading questions when eliciting expert information.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, it even goes beyond expert opinion.

19     You're asking for a judgement and whether my thoughts are mine or someone

20     else's is not a question which can be put in general nor can it be

21     answered in general terms.

22             Please, next question.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] In your brigade, when a document was being

25     drafted and an operations officer from your staff was involved in it, was

Page 11381

 1     he working on your orders or under his own -- following his own idea of

 2     the document?

 3        A.   The operations officer has the duty and obligation to put

 4     everything that was decided upon by myself and my staff.  He is not

 5     allowed to omit anything and needs to phrase the document precisely.

 6     That is why it is stated who drafted it, and for the most part it was the

 7     operations officer who did.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we next have Prosecution document

 9     65 ter number 5821.  It is Directive 7/1.

10        Q.   Where we find that it was drafted in the Main Staff of the VRS.

11     You have had occasion to see this document as well in the course of your

12     work.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   The document, that is to say Directive 7/1, was drafted on the

15     31st of March, 1995.  As we could see, Directive 7 was produced on the

16     8th of March, 1995.  I'm interested in the following.  Please bear with

17     me.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm interested in page 5 in the B/C/S

19     version and the same page in the English.

20        Q.   We see here what tasks were issued to the Drina Corps in the

21     document published by the Main Staff of the VRS.  So as not to read all

22     of it, please have a look at it and then I can ask a question, or perhaps

23     everyone could check what I'm about to ask you.  First of all, is it

24     correct that in the tasks foreseen by -- [In English] I'm sorry.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Where do you want to start reading, Mr. Lukic?

Page 11382

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Point 5.3.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  5.3.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, Drina Corps.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Is it correct that in the tasks foreseen by the Main Staff by

 7     virtue of this document pertaining to the Drina Corps, there are no tasks

 8     specifically designated as being aimed at the enclaves of Srebrenica and

 9     Zepa?

10        A.   Yes, that is correct.

11        Q.   Let us briefly go back to Directive 7, that is to say the

12     previous document.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It was Prosecution document 65 ter

14     number 4001.  In the English, it is easy.  We need the last page.  In the

15     B/C/S we need page 21.  I think that's what it was last time.  Yes, the

16     pages are correct in both versions.

17        Q.   In this directive by the Supreme Command in item 8 we find the

18     following:

19             "Send corps commander's decisions for approval to the commander

20     of the VRS Main Staff seven days before carrying out the planned

21     operation."

22             In order to answer this question, we need to again see document

23     which received the number P1465.  It is the Drina Corps command order

24     dated the 2nd of July.  It is an order for active combat and the title is

25     "Krivaja 95."  Among the list of addressees, is there the Main Staff of

Page 11383

 1     the VRS?

 2        A.   No.  It was sent to the brigade -- some brigades of the corps.

 3        Q.   We see from the document that a task was ordered which had not

 4     been foreseen by Directive 7/1 and that the order was not sent to the

 5     Main Staff of the VRS in keeping of item 8 in Directive 7; is that

 6     correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just, you know, Mr. President, the order of

10     the -- the cover page order -- or letter from General Milovanovic is now

11     put in the correct position, 65 ter 04001 --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- for Directive 7.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At least that confusion has been removed.

15             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm closing to the end so

17     everybody knows.  The next witness should be brought, although I don't

18     know how long the re-direct will take.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you finish your cross-examination to start

20     with.

21             MR. LUKIC:  In a couple of minute -- in a minute or two.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Well, at least I'm bringing this to a close, so I just have a few

25     more brief questions.  As brigade commander you had a Chief of Staff,

Page 11384

 1     didn't you?  At the same time was he your deputy well?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   In your absence, for example, if you were involved in Krivaja 95,

 4     is it correct that your Chief of Staff commanded your brigade?

 5        A.   Part of the brigade.  The larger part of the brigade in the

 6     defence zone, yes.

 7        Q.   Mr. Trivic, thank you for having answered our questions.

 8        A.   Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we ask whether the Prosecution has any need

10     to re-examine the witness, Judge Fluegge has a question for the witness.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One or perhaps a couple of questions.

12             Mr. Trivic, we dealt with Directive 7 and Directive 7/1.  You

13     told us that in July 1995 you haven't received Directive 7.  Is my

14     recollection correct, that you didn't receive it at that point in time?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not receive it.  At the time

16     I did not receive these directives.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you receive Directive 7/1 in July 1995 or

18     between March and July 1995?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think I did.  That's what I

20     think.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I put this question to you because you answered a

22     question of Mr. Lukic in a different way, page 49, line 16.  It was put

23     to you by Mr. Lukic:

24             "You have had occasion to see this document as well in the course

25     of your work," whatever "in the course of your work" means.

Page 11385

 1             And then you answered:

 2             "Yes."

 3             How did you understand the question of Mr. Lukic?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood the question.  I think

 5     it was quite correct but it also contained another part.  "In your later

 6     work."  So I think that is what is missing from this question, or rather,

 7     from the transcript.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Or rather, thank you for that

 9     clarification.

10             If I understood you correctly, you were a colonel at that time in

11     mid-1995 and the commander of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade; is that

12     correct?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Who was your direct superior at that time, in

15     July 1995?  Who could issue orders to you?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The corps command issued orders to

17     me, the commander of the Drina Corps.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Who was the direct superior to the commander of

19     the Drina Corps at that point in time?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The head of the Main Staff was his

21     superior, if I understood your question correctly.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, indeed that was my question.  And that means

23     it was the commander of the VRS; is that correctly understood?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

Page 11386

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, no signing.  I'll assist you in -- and

 2     no loud speaking, Mr. Mladic.  Mr. Mladic, no loud speaking.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have no further questions.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, any questions in re-examination for

 5     the witness?

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8                           Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 9        Q.   I would like to clarify the last point.  The Supreme Commander of

10     the Republika Srpska was President Radovan Karadzic in July of 1995;

11     correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And the commander of the VRS is General Mladic?

14        A.   Yes.  As commander of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika

15     Srpska.  I think that that would be the full title that he held.

16        Q.   Thank you for clarifying that.  I'll -- since we've been dealing

17     with --

18             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, I just think that my friend misspoke.  He

19     should check.  "As commander ..." Page 54, line 13:

20             "The Supreme Commander of the Republika Srpska ..."

21             I thought you meant "VRS."

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. -- Colonel Trivic can sort that out for us,

24     but I --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I wondered whether there is any dispute about the

Page 11387

 1     positions of Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Mladic in this respect.  If there is

 2     not, then I consider just an introduction to questions that may follow.

 3             Mr. McCloskey.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   These words from Directive 7 directed to the Drina Corps to make

 6     life unbearable for the Muslim population.  You told us you didn't get

 7     Directive 7, but did you get those words in another document directed to

 8     you?

 9        A.   I would kindly ask you to remind me if you have such a document,

10     that is.  After all these years whether something like that did arrive or

11     did not arrive, I don't want to speculate.  During the conversations I

12     had with you, during the proofing, and if you have an answer that I

13     provided, please do remind me.

14        Q.   I don't remember.  But these are amazing words.  I won't repeat

15     them again.  "Make life unbearable for the people."  Certainly you would

16     have remembered those words if they had been given to you from your

17     superiors.  Yes or no:  Do you remember or not?

18        A.   I assume I would remember.  These are very grave words.  But

19     let's not go into any further explanations.  I assume that if they had

20     been put that way I would have remembered.  But here in this context of

21     this directive, they do not have that meaning.  I explained -- I tried to

22     explain, present -- well, not explain, sorry, I meant I tried to present

23     my point of view.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You're supposed to present facts you have

25     observed.  The answer is simply, therefore, that the witness says that he

Page 11388

 1     doesn't remember.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go to 65 ter 04190.

 3        Q.   And Colonel, take your -- take your time with this.  We see that

 4     it's from the commander of the Drina Corps in March 1995 -- sorry, March

 5     20th, 1995.  And it's to the command of all the brigades, including

 6     yours, 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, order for Defence and combat

 7     operations, operative number 7, and then it talks about the enemy.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to page 6 in the English and page 3 in

 9     the Serbian.

10        Q.   Let's look in that first B/C/S paragraph in the Cyrillic and --

11     sorry, under paragraph 2, the first paragraph under paragraph 2 in the

12     Cyrillic.  It's the top of the page, the fourth line down in the English.

13             "By planned and well-thought-out combat operations create an

14     unbearable situation of total insecurity with no hope of further survival

15     or life for the inhabitants of Srebrenica and Zepa."

16             In your own words, those grave words were directed to you.  Do

17     you now recall them?

18        A.   I remember that we discussed this in some situation but this is

19     the 23rd.

20        Q.   Colonel, do you now remember receiving these words in this

21     document?  Simple question, yes or no?

22        A.   No.  No.  No, I do not remember because they were not addressed

23     to me because I do not have positions vis-a-vis Srebrenica and Zepa.

24     Quite simply, these were not my tasks.  I did not register them or did I

25     have any need to register them.

Page 11389

 1        Q.   Colonel, are you saying when you get an order from your commander

 2     that you don't read the complete order so that you don't know what your

 3     neighbours are up to around you?  And remember your testimony regarding

 4     the Krivaja 95 Operation.

 5        A.   No, I don't think I'm being superficial and that I hadn't read

 6     this.  I just say that it wasn't my task and that I don't remember.  As

 7     for these words, on the 20th of March, this did not pertain to my unit at

 8     all.  I did not have positions vis-a-vis Srebrenica and Zepa and that is

 9     why I attached less importance to this part of this order for active

10     combat.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this document into evidence,

12     Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

14             Mr. Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  P1468, Your Honours.  Thank you.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would also --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I would also offer Directive 7 at this time,

19     which is 04001.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar -- Mr. Lukic, I take it that there is

21     no objection?

22             Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  P1469, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  P1469 is admitted into evidence.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And Directive 7/1, 05821.

Page 11390

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  P1470, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 5        Q.   Colonel, going back to the Bratunac Brigade headquarters, the

 6     situation as you've described, you spoke briefly on this topic.  Were

 7     orders given at that meeting to have troops secure the road

 8     Bratunac-Konjevic Polje-Milici as the bulk of the forces were going to

 9     Zepa?

10        A.   Yes.  Tasks were issued to tasks -- to units that cover areas of

11     their defence; that is to say, to secure roads.

12        Q.   I'm speaking specifically of the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje-Milici

13     road.

14        A.   Yes, that was referred to, that these units should secure that

15     road if the road goes through their areas of defence and also that

16     reinforcements from the police should be sought.

17        Q.   And when you say "police," do you mean the MUP, the Ministry of

18     the Interior police?

19        A.   Yes, yes.

20        Q.   And who -- who issued those orders at the meeting that night?

21        A.   That was discussed.  No order was issued.  I think that

22     General Krstic gave a task to the commanders who were affected that

23     evening, but there was no specifically written order also in terms of

24     asking the MUP, the police, in that area for their assistance.

25        Q.   Yes, and I'm not asking, as you know, when I say "orders" or

Page 11391

 1     "tasks," I'm not -- we know many of these aren't written at this point.

 2     In the past you weren't sure if it was General Krstic or General Mladic

 3     that issued those tasks to the brigades.  Could it have been

 4     General Mladic that issued the order or the task?

 5        A.   I think -- or rather, it's not that I think.  Krstic was the one

 6     who issued orders.  General Mladic, in my view -- actually, the only

 7     order that was issued by General Mladic to General Krstic was to prepare

 8     for Zepa.

 9        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the 13th very briefly.  You have referred

10     to the packed football field of prisoners as disarmed -- what was the

11     term you used?

12        A.   Disarmed enemy forces.

13        Q.   Yes.  And I don't want to get into this in detail, but I do have

14     one question.  You've cited General Eisenhower as your source for that

15     regarding the German prisoners after the war in 1945.  Did you cite that

16     knowing the many, many thousands of German prisoners that perished in the

17     custody of the Allies under that designation?

18        A.   I just used the term that General Eisenhower had used according

19     to literature.  He avoided the qualification of German soldiers as

20     prisoners of war for certain reasons.  He defined them, qualified them,

21     as disarmed enemy forces.  When they later became -- I mean, their status

22     when they were being disarmed was -- he qualified them as disarmed enemy

23     forces.  When did they become prisoners of war?  Probably later when they

24     were recorded.

25        Q.   It was a simple question.  Did you know that many thousands of

Page 11392

 1     German prisoners had perished when you cited that?

 2        A.   Yes, precisely, the literature that describes these events

 3     mentions the reasons why the commander of the Allied Forces qualified

 4     these forces as disarmed enemy forces.

 5        Q.   All right.  We can go to --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Why not --

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   -- another subject.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Why not answer the question?  Is there anything that

10     keeps you off from doing that?  I establish that you're doing it.

11             Mr. McCloskey, next question, please.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

13        Q.   All right.  Let's go to your diary, something that we're familiar

14     with, because we got into Zepa a bit and so I want to ask you about a

15     couple of things related to Zepa and the status of civilians or -- or

16     prisoners, which was related to the Kasaba folks.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So if we could go back to what is now P1467.

18     It's MFI'd.  And it should be page 73 in both languages.

19        Q.   And we'll wait for your -- there's your diary.  And we see that's

20     number 1 -- you've numbered it 1 in red and we see the number 1 in the

21     English.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next -- it's actually page 71 in

23     e-court.

24        Q.   But it's your number 2.  Sorry, it's number 72 in e-court and

25     your number 2.  And we see here something entitled:

Page 11393

 1     "Major-General Krstic," and then there is four points.  And I want to

 2     start with point 2:

 3             "The brilliant victory in Srebrenica is the biggest boost to

 4     morale."

 5             So is -- what's General Krstic -- what's this reflect, these

 6     notes?  Is it like a talk from General Krstic, something like that?

 7        A.   Yes, that is an introduction at this gathering, that was this

 8     meeting, with subordinates and that's how the meeting started.  Primarily

 9     in terms of what he had to say to us before we started reporting and so

10     on.

11        Q.   And could you read number 3 for us, slowly.

12        A.   Yes.

13             "The situation in the Srebrenica enclave and Birac."

14             And then the next bullet point:

15             "Small groups of civilians."

16             Next one:

17             "Small armed groups."

18             And --

19        Q.   That's okay.  I don't want to get into the brigades.  So we see

20     here General Krstic on the 16th of July when speaking of the groups of

21     Muslims still in the area, he's able to distinguish groups of civilians

22     and armed groups clearly, isn't he?

23        A.   That's how I recorded what he said, succinctly.

24        Q.   Let's go up to number 1:

25             "The VRS VK has decided that eastern parts of RS must be

Page 11394

 1     liberated from the Turks."

 2             He actually said that?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And that those buses we saw on the 26th of July, those were the

 5     civilians from Zepa being shipped out.  So by the end of July there were

 6     no more civilians or people of any number either in the Srebrenica

 7     enclave or the Zepa enclave, were there?

 8        A.   I'm a soldier.  Allow me.  I've already answered several times,

 9     either to your questions or questions put by your associates, that this

10     term, "Turks," "Chetniks," "balijas," whatever else pertains to soldiers.

11     That's what we called each other.

12        Q.   Okay.  Let's keep going.  Let's go to page 70 in your diary.

13     It's just a couple of more pages away.  And at this period of time you're

14     in combat with the forces of the Zepa Brigade, right?

15        A.   Yes.  Could we -- well, I think that is it.  Can you let me see

16     the date?

17        Q.   This was three pages on from your date of 16 July with no dates

18     in between.  Okay.  Tell us what this means:

19             "PAD for

20             "launching aerial bombs to come tomorrow to Gusinac

21             "Mitar Komljenovic

22             "to report to Rogatica at 0800 hours."

23             What's a PAD and what are for launching aerial bombs?  What's

24     that stuff?

25        A.   It was a motor vehicle with a makeshift pad attached to the

Page 11395

 1     chassis from which, with the assistance of the pads, one can launch an

 2     aerial bomb to an area.  One can launch an aerial bomb to an area.

 3        Q.   So this pad is on the back of a truck; right?

 4        A.   Yes, it is well lit to the chassis.

 5        Q.   And that acts as sort of a ramp by which you shoot this bomb off

 6     with rockets?

 7        A.   Well, one needs an explosive charge, something that will make it

 8     fly.  It ejects it from the ramp, and depending on the angle of the

 9     launcher, that aerial bomb can reach a certain distance.  The bigger the

10     angle, especially over 45 degrees, the trajectory is shorter.  If you put

11     it under 45 degrees the trajectory is longer.  However, it is an

12     improvised launcher that we refer to as a ramp which enabled the firing

13     or launching of an aerial bomb.  There were such aerial bombs in certain

14     warehouses where they had not been withdrawn.  I think I explained this

15     already and it can be found in the transcript of my previous testimony.

16        Q.   And when you say "aerial bombs," you mean bombs designed to be

17     dropped from airplanes?

18        A.   It is a jacket of such an aerial bomb.  The casings belonged to

19     aerial bombs but there were different explosive charges.  For the most

20     part such a device has a psychological impact because it is a large

21     calibre and detonates in a certain area.  Originally they are designed to

22     be dropped from airplanes, but on this occasion they were not dropped

23     from planes, they were launched from these improvised launching pads or

24     ramps.

25        Q.   But just for the psychological impact?

Page 11396

 1        A.   Yes, for the most part.  They were called SOWs [phoen].  They did

 2     not have a significant effect other than making a loud noise, having a

 3     psychological impact on any fighters in the area.  It doesn't mean,

 4     though, that parts of such a jacket cannot injure someone close by.

 5     There can be consequences like that.

 6        Q.   And in Zepa there were villages and civilian populations all

 7     interspersed around much of the army, wasn't there?

 8        A.   Yes.  At certain distances away from each other.

 9        Q.   How many of these devices did you hear go off in Zepa?

10        A.   This piece of information that I noted does not say it was used

11     but that it was supposed to arrive.  I think - and I'm almost certain -

12     that none were used.  There was only one such ramp on one vehicle in that

13     area, generally.

14        Q.   That you knew of.  Okay.  You also talked about the --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, "that you knew of" is comment.  If

16     you have questions for the witness, put them to the witness, but do not

17     complete the answers of the witness.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   You, in your cross-examination, talked about an agreement with

21     the various sides, the Muslim side, the Serbian side, and their

22     evacuation.  Would it have been proper under your training as a JNA

23     officer in meeting with the opposing side to tell them, "Civilians of

24     Zepa, you need to leave.  And if you don't leave, we will begin a

25     military attack."  Is that proper?

Page 11397

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Is this leading?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's just a question.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The issue was whether it was a leading question or

 6     not and whether you think that you could lead in re-examination.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't think it suggests an answer.  It's just a

 8     question whether that's fair.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you please rephrase your question.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:

11        Q.   Were you aware that this was the strategy employed by

12     General Tolimir in dealing with the Muslim population in his meeting

13     with -- with their representatives?

14        A.   I wasn't aware of it.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go to 65 ter 4175.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for it, Mr. McCloskey, I take it

17     that we agree on the following:  That a leading question is a question

18     which either suggests an answer or includes assumed facts which have not

19     yet been established.  And I think it's rather the latter of the two

20     which was making Mr. Lukic rising to his feet.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23        Q.   I'm sorry this is hard to read.  If we could blow it up for you

24     so you can get a read on it.  We see it's 13 July and we now know that's

25     the -- the day that you went to the Zepa operation.  It's from the

Page 11398

 1     command of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, which is Rogatica.

 2     And it -- the last page is under the name of General Zdravko Tolimir.

 3     And we see the -- the first -- the first page, and let's see who it's to:

 4     The Main Staff of the VRS, service for intelligence -- or, sorry, sector

 5     for intelligence and security; the command of the Drina Corps, department

 6     for intelligence and security; and for General Krstic, your commander of

 7     this operation.

 8             And let's go -- we see that it starts out with:  On 13 July there

 9     was a meeting between Hamdija Torlak, president of the Zepa Executive

10     Committee, Mujo Omanovic -- and I won't read the rest of it.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And let's now look at paragraph -- it's 5, which

12     is on that front page.  It's a little hard to read.  Page 2 in the

13     English, please.

14        Q.   And here General Tolimir says:

15             "We rejected their first request and we made a condition that all

16     necessary consultations had to be completed by 1500 hours and that the

17     evacuation had to start at that time.  We have conditioned this within an

18     alternative solution - military force.  We guarantee the evacuation of

19     all civilian population and military aged men who surrender their

20     weapons, as well as the safety for the civilians who decide to stay and

21     accept RS authority."

22             So on the evening of 13 July, you're gearing up for the Zepa

23     operation.  Did General Krstic inform you that there had been this

24     ultimatum to the representatives regarding the upcoming operation?

25        A.   No.

Page 11399

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this document into evidence, 4175.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  P1471, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  One last document and then just a couple of

 6     questions related to it.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time would you still need?  Should we take

 8     a break first?  I suggest that we -- we are now at a little bit over one

 9     hour.  If you finish within next three or four minutes, would you have

10     further questions then?

11             Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Two by now, one rising from your question.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             How much time would you need, Mr. McCloskey?

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just a few minutes.  I want to show him one other

16     document and ask him if he heard about it.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then also looking at Mr. Lukic, because if we would

18     finish before and then take a break, then for the next witness we could

19     prepare necessary measures.  But that would go some ten minutes then

20     beyond what is the usual time.  Then it's appreciated that Mr. Mladic

21     assists.

22             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   Let me show you another document from General Tolimir and ask you

25     if you'd seen it on the topic of how civilians were treated and the

Page 11400

 1     intentions of the VRS.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  65 ter 5370.

 3        Q.   And as we'll see, this is dated 21 July 1995, again from the

 4     command of the Rogatica Brigade.  And it's to the VRS Main Staff, to

 5     General Miletic personally.  Let me see if I can clear something up.

 6             General Miletic at the time, was his position the chief of

 7     operations and training for the Main Staff or just chief of operations?

 8     If you know.

 9        A.   As far as I recall, the position was the chief of operations and

10     training or something of the sort.

11        Q.   And did you know a Colonel Obradovic who was the actual chief of

12     operations at the time at the Main Staff, under Miletic?

13        A.   Yes, I met him in that organ.  They had a part in charge of

14     training and education and another part for operations.

15        Q.   All right.  Let me ask you if you've heard of paragraph 4:

16             "We believe that it is more profitable to hold direct

17     negotiations after inflicting losses on the enemy's manpower.  We ask you

18     to provide us with means to destroy the enemy defence in the area of

19     Brezova Ravan and Purtici."

20             Okay.  I'm not in my questions suggesting any difficulties with

21     that.  But then:

22             "It would be most profitable to destroy them by using chemical

23     means or aerosol mines and bombs.  By using these means, we would cause

24     the fall of Zepa and surrender of the Muslims.  We will continue with

25     combat operations with direct attack weapons to break through in the

Page 11401

 1     mentioned directions."

 2             Now we hear this -- were you aware of a proposal to use chemical

 3     means in the Zepa operation?  And let me be specific:  It is the

 4     Prosecution position we are talking about tear-gas chemicals, unless you

 5     know of any other.

 6        A.   No, I wasn't aware of this plan or activity.  Given the area, I

 7     don't think such means would be used because we were in close contact.

 8     The area of the Zepa valley is configured in such a way that both sides

 9     will sustain casualties.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you've answered the question by saying that

11     you weren't aware.

12             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:

14        Q.   So would you be surprised if I showed you the documents that

15     showed chemical tear-gas, rocket-propelled grenades, and hand-grenades?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, whether the witness -- if he says he

17     is not aware of it, he's not here to learn the history unless you want to

18     suggest to him that he did not answer in accordance with the truth.  But

19     he's not here to be taught; he's here to give evidence.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm just trying to save a little time,

21     Mr. President, because I have those documents --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, fine.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm just telling him and seeing if that will help

24     refresh his recollection.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, okay.  Is there any chance that you -- if you

Page 11402

 1     look at documents that you might remember, or are you certain that you

 2     never heard of the use of tear-gas in the area?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In response to one of your previous

 4     questions today, I said that I don't recall ever having stated that I was

 5     aware that chemical weapons were used.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness repeat

 7     the very end of his answer because he trailed off.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you repeat the last part of your answer.

 9     I -- perhaps I can already say that it was not suggested to you that you

10     said so - at least, Mr. McCloskey, that's how I understood it - but that

11     Mr. McCloskey says that documents would indicate that tear-gas would have

12     been used and whether looking at those documents, whether that might

13     refresh your recollection in this.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Almost, Mr. President.  Tear-gas supplies were

15     delivered to the forward command post.  I don't use --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, I said -- therefore, I didn't say

17     "prove" -- well, in any case, you say "use."  Well, any document that

18     would establish that tear-gas was delivered, is there any chance that

19     that might refresh your recollection?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, no.  I had no such

21     information and I don't recall that there was any reference to it.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   And the last paragraph beginning with:  "We believe ..."

25             Were you aware of that proposal being made?

Page 11403

 1        A.   Please repeat your question because I didn't understand it.

 2        Q.   Were you aware that this last proposal, that this statement in

 3     the last paragraph was made?  Did you ever hear about this?

 4        A.   I never did.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer 5370 into evidence.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  P1472, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections, therefore admitted.

10             Mr. Lukic.

11             Was that your last question, Mr. McCloskey?

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

14                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

15             MR. LUKIC:  If we can briefly go to page 60, line 13, of today's

16     transcript.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Today Judge Orie stated that you did not answer

18     his question and that you did not wish to.  Did you at any point refuse

19     to answer Judge Orie's questions?  Do you remember it having been said

20     today?

21        A.   Yes, I remember it.  Based on my -- yesterday's experience, I am

22     not even prepared to discuss this, taking into consideration the position

23     of the Judges and my role in the courtroom.  But I do recall that he said

24     so concerning those who perished after being captured; that is to say,

25     the German disarmed forces.

Page 11404

 1        Q.   Did you know, then, that many thousands of German prisoners

 2     perished after the operation of capturing them, and did you connect the

 3     use of the term you used with that situation?

 4        A.   No, I did not.  I simply referred to the way the Allied Forces

 5     commander avoided having termed those disarmed enemy forces as POWs.  I

 6     did not analyse it in any expert sense.  I simply stated the fact that he

 7     did so.  The sources that refer to his position also describe that people

 8     did perish; however, I cannot say anything specifically.  That is why I

 9     did not answer directly to Mr. McCloskey.  I did not research it.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I always prefer to be quoted correctly.

11     I established that the witness did not answer the question.  I didn't say

12     anything about whether he wished to do or not.  He didn't do it.  I

13     establish that you are doing it, is what I said.  Before I said:

14             "Is there anything that keeps you off from doing that?"

15             And that was answering the question.  I did not express myself in

16     terms of refusal or wishes, just I established that the witness did not

17     answer the question.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

20             Actually, I don't have any other questions.  Thank you, Your

21     Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

23             Then, Mr. Trivic, this concludes your testimony in this Court.  I

24     would like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and

25     for having answered the questions that were put to you by the parties and

Page 11405

 1     by the Bench.  May I invite you to follow the usher.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Before the witness leaves, can I get the permission

 4     to see the witness now after he leaves for one minute?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course.  I take it that if -- the Defence

 6     is free to speak with the witness unless you have any other plans of

 7     re-calling, Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No.  Of course, the witness people will have

 9     him --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- and will take Mr. Lukic over.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There is only one practical matter and I would

13     like to move into private session for a second.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

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Page 11406

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22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.  Thank

25     you.

Page 11407

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 2             We'll take a break and we'll resume at ten minutes to 2.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 1.29 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 1.52 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into closed session.

 6                           [Closed session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

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Page 11408











11 Page 11408 redacted. Closed session.















Page 11409

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16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.  Thank

20     you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

22             Good afternoon, Witness.  I am not going to use your name because

23     protective measures apply for your testimony.  I therefore will call you

24     Witness RM306.

25             Witness, before you give evidence, the rules require that you

Page 11410

 1     make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you.  May I

 2     invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 4     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 5                           WITNESS:  RM306

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness RM306, I first would like to inform you that

10     the request for an extension of protective measures has been granted.

11     That means that the outside world will not see your face, they will not

12     hear your own voice, and we'll address you not by your own name but as

13     Witness RM306.

14             Before we proceed, I'd like to address the following matter:  We

15     cannot exclude that you in answering truthfully the questions that you

16     would have to make a statement which might to incriminate yourself.  Now,

17     a witness, you are a witness, may object -- yes, there seems to be a --

18     one second, please.

19             Now, a witness - and you are a witness - may object to making any

20     statement which might tend to incriminate yourself, and then, of course,

21     the Chamber will then consider whether you nevertheless have to answer

22     that question.  But just to inform you that if you feel that a truthful

23     answer might incriminate yourself, you may object to answer that

24     question.

25             Is that clear to you?

Page 11411

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Ms. Lee, you may proceed.

 3             MS. LEE:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4                           Examination by Ms. Lee:

 5        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.

 6        A.   Good afternoon.

 7        Q.   The Court has ordered certain protective measures with respect to

 8     you and your evidence here today.  These include the use of a pseudonym,

 9     distortion of your image and voice, and now I would -- so I would not

10     refer you by your name, but I'll refer you as witness or RM306.

11             MS. LEE:  May I please have 65 ter number 28906 which is under

12     seal pulled up in e-court, please.

13        Q.   Witness, please take a look at the document on the screen before

14     you.  Is that your name and date of birth?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MS. LEE:  Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 28906 into

17     evidence under seal.

18             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  P1473, Your Honours.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted under seal.

22             Please proceed.

23             MS. LEE:  May I please have 65 ter number 28905 brought into

24     e-court under seal.

25        Q.   And while it's being brought up:  Witness, is it correct that you

Page 11412

 1     provided a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal in

 2     October of 2000 in Banja Luka?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And have you previously appeared before this Tribunal in three

 5     cases; namely in --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, one second.  Apparently there is some

 7     problem with the audio for Mr. Mladic.

 8             May it -- could it be caused by using the -- not the exact socket

 9     due to the voice distortion?

10             Witness, could you please speak a few words because most

11     important is that Mr. Mladic is able to hear the B/C/S.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General, can you hear me?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can hear you.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll proceed.

15             MS. LEE:  Thank you, Your Honours.

16   (redacted)

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Page 11413

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 6             MS. LEE:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7             Can we move into private session.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we move into private session.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

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Page 11414











11 Page 11414 redacted. Private session.















Page 11415

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20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.  Thank you.

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 11416

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 3   (redacted)

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 5             And it lists three full days.  So I'm presuming that he reviewed

 6     the entirety of that testimony, whereas the proffered Rule 92 ter

 7     transcript is a selection.  Therefore, if he says the entirety of my

 8     testimony is accurate, including any corrections you might have made that

 9     the Prosecution has not included in their 92 ter transcript is not the

10     same thing as authenticating this selection, this extract.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, if you have attested to the whole of it, would

12     that in any way affect that part of it, would be covered by that?

13             MR. IVETIC:  It may, Your Honour.  Part of it may not be accurate

14     because he believes it's been corrected in the part that is not listed.

15     He doesn't know what's been selected by the Prosecution, just like my

16     client doesn't know because they listened to the audiotape as a whole.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but if I say that the totality of the evidence

18     is accurate.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  If now a portion of that evidence is tendered, would

21     that then not be part of what the witness attested to as being accurate?

22             MR. IVETIC:  The totality would be, including totality meaning

23     everything he said afterwards that may affect what he said in these

24     selections, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  But is there any correction which you consider

Page 11417

 1     relevant in this context to which you would like to draw the attention?

 2     Because I do understand that if in the non-selected portion there would

 3     be a correction to anything, that we would miss that then.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, is there any such thing you noticed in the

 6     totality, because I take it you have gone through the totality of the

 7     evidence?  Are there any?

 8             MR. IVETIC:  I will be raising them in my cross-examination,

 9     Your Honour, yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  There are?

11             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we'll have it marked for identification

13     for the time being, and then we'll hear during cross-examination.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Since you have identified such portions, we'll MFI

16     it first.

17             Mr. Registrar, the document would receive number?

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 128905 receives P1474.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification and under seal.

20                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Further, I urge the parties - and I did make a

22     mistake myself in that respect as well - not to refer to the previous

23     case by name.  That is one.

24             Second, Mr. Ivetic, any objections against the associated

25     exhibits?

Page 11418

 1             MR. IVETIC:  None, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, then for the associated exhibits?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 04824 receives P1475 and 65 ter 14173

 4     receives P1476, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P1475 and P1476 are admitted into evidence.

 6             Ms. Lee, no need to have them under seal?

 7             MS. LEE:  No, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             Then I would suggest that we continue for five more minutes.

10             MS. LEE:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Perhaps I could -- perhaps

11     this is a good time to read a brief summary of the witness's evidence.

12             Can we please move into private session.

13             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the reason why I wanted to continue for five

15     minutes, Ms. Lee, is in order to make the witness feel perhaps a bit more

16     comfortable because until now it was only procedural matters.

17             I suggest that you read the summary tomorrow and that you put

18     your first questions to the witness and then we'll adjourn.

19             MS. LEE:  Yes, Your Honour, except that my first question will

20     lead to a topic that will take more than five minutes, and I was just

21     wondering if I -- if it would be best to ...

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Under those circumstances, we'll adjourn earlier.

23             Witness, the reason why I suggested that we would continue for

24     another five minutes is because you have been exposed, until now, mainly

25     to procedural matters, whereas no question has yet been put to you.  Now

Page 11419

 1     we'll start with your real testimony tomorrow.  We'd like to see you back

 2     tomorrow morning, and meanwhile I have to instruct you that you should

 3     not speak or communicate in whatever way about the testimony you are

 4     about to give.  Is that clear to you?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We will then adjourn for the day after we've moved

 7     into closed session, and we will resume tomorrow, Thursday, the

 8     23rd of May, at 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom III.

 9             We move into closed session.

10                           [Closed session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd day

19                           of May, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.