Page 11420
1 Thursday, 23 May 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
7 number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
9 The Trial Chamber was informed that the Prosecution wanted to
10 raise a preliminary matter.
11 Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Over here, excuse me, Your Honours.
13 Regarding MFI P1467, the Trivic diary, I've identified 35 pages
14 from it down from the 70-some odd, pages 1 through 32 in e-court and
15 pages 69 through 73. That's basically July 5 through 16. I've had a
16 chance to speak briefly with Mr. Lukic this morning about that and he is
17 double checking the diary and seeing if he has any additions or
18 objections. And we should be all set very soon.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait for your report, Mr. Lukic. And
20 then once Mr. Lukic has made up his mind, I take it that the selected
21 portion will then be uploaded in e-court.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And we have a number 25860A.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- okay. But we do not know yet whether
24 something has to be added at the request of Mr. Lukic.
25 Then if there is nothing else at this moment, the witness can be
Page 11421
1 escorted into the courtroom. But we first have to go into closed session
2 for that purpose.
3 [Closed session]
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24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session. Thank
Page 11422
1 you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
3 Witness, before we continue, I would like to remind you that the
4 solemn declaration you've given yesterday, that you'll speak the truth,
5 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth still -- is still binding upon
6 you.
7 WITNESS: RM306 [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Lee will now continue her examination-in-chief.
10 Please proceed.
11 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Good morning, Your Honours, good morning everyone.
13 Examination by Ms. Lee: [Continued]
14 Q. Good morning, Witness.
15 A. Good morning.
16 MS. LEE: Your Honours, with your leave, I would like to now read
17 a brief summary of this witness's evidence.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
19 MS. LEE: On the 13th of July, 1995, while driving to
20 Konjevic Polje, the witness saw buses carrying women, children, and
21 elderly persons driving from the direction of Bratunac to Konjevic Polje.
22 When passing what he describes as the farmer's co-operative building in
23 Kravica, also referred to as the Kravica warehouse in this case, RM306
24 witnessed the execution of five men by a man dressed in green camouflage
25 uniform. He also saw a pile of approximately 40 to 50 bodies in front of
Page 11423
1 the Kravica warehouse.
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 That evening and in the following days, trucks carrying dead bodies
8 arrived in large numbers to be burial site. Bodies were collected from
9 Kravica, Konjevic Polje, from around the Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac,
10 and along the main road from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje. The witness
11 estimates that approximately 400 to 500 bodies were buried during his
12 presence in Glogova, but believes that a lot more bodies were buried
13 there as the burial operations by the VRS continued in the days following
14 his departure from Glogova.
15 Your Honours, this concludes the summary for this witness's
16 evidence.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. If you have any further questions for
18 the witness, you may proceed.
19 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 Q. Witness, you previously testified that you met with Ljubisa --
21 Ljubisav Borovcanin, the deputy commander of the special police brigade,
22 at the Jasen restaurant on the day that you witnessed the killing of five
23 men near the farmer's co-operative building in Kravica, which I'll refer
24 to as the Kravica warehouse. Do you recall the approximate time of your
25 meeting with Borovcanin?
Page 11424
1 A. It was around 6.00 or 7.00 p.m. We were together until around
2 9.00 p.m.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Has the audio problem been resolved or not yet?
4 Could the usher assist in resolving it.
5 Resolved, Mr. Lukic?
6 MR. LUKIC: [Microphone not activated]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 Please proceed.
9 MS. LEE:
10 Q. Do you remember who else was present at this meeting aside from
11 Borovcanin?
12 A. It wasn't a meeting in the classical sense of the word. After
13 Mr. Borovcanin and I saw each other in town when I invited him to have a
14 drink and dinner, I sat down with Mr. Deronjic as well as
15 Mr. Ljubo Simic -- or, rather, Ljubisav Simic. I think Josipovic was
16 there as well, Miodrag Josipovic, Srbislav Davidovic as well as some
17 other people. Among them later on was a member of the special police of
18 Republika Srpska who arrived later from the hospital or, rather, from the
19 health centre with his left arm bandaged. He had been injured in Kravica
20 or, rather, in Sandici.
21 Q. Witness, maybe it's a translation error, you just testified that
22 the man who joined you later came from the Bratunac health centre with
23 his left arm bandaged. Was it his left -- was it -- was it his left --
24 what part of the arm was he -- injured?
25 A. The left arm and the left-hand had been injured and bandaged.
Page 11425
1 MS. LEE: May I please have 65 ter 04689C on e-court, not to be
2 broadcast, and have page 2 in both languages.
3 Q. And while the document is being brought up, in your prior
4 testimony you said that a young man -- the man from the special police
5 unit had a bandaged hand. Do you know how he got his hand injured?
6 A. In a previous conversation with the people I was sitting with,
7 including Mr. Borovcanin, I heard there had been an incident in Sandici.
8 A Muslim man took away a rifle from one of the policemen from the special
9 unit and he fired a burst killing him. This other man was close by and
10 he ran up to the man and grabbed the rifle by the barrel. Because of the
11 previous firing, the barrel was hot and that's how his left-hand became
12 injured. That's what I heard. And later on I saw the man arrive at the
13 Jasen restaurant. I could see his left-hand bandaged. So I presumed
14 that was the man who had previously been discussed that evening.
15 Q. Witness, can you now please look at the screen, and I would like
16 to draw your attention to entry 1490. And in there the description of
17 the injured it says:
18 "Burns on the palms of the hand and two to four fingers to the
19 left-hand."
20 Does the description of the injury here reflect what you learned
21 about the injuries of the young man with the bandaged hand?
22 A. I think that's it. His entire hand was bandaged, not only
23 individual fingers. The entire hand was in bandages, as far as I could
24 see.
25 Q. And in the same entry, 1490, it states here that the date of
Page 11426
1 birth of the patient is the 26th of August, 1971. Judging by this entry,
2 the patient would have been 23 years old at that time. Was the man that
3 you saw approximately of the same age?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And in relation to the time admission in this entry, it states
6 that he was admitted on the 13th of July, 1995, at 1740 hours. Is the
7 time of the admission of the patient consistent with what you learned
8 about the timing of the incident surrounding the injury sustained by this
9 young man with the bandaged hand?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before the witness answers, Madam Lee, may I
11 just find out is the date of admission or the date of wounding?
12 MS. LEE: Yes, Your Honour, on the record it's the date of
13 wounding as described in this health log.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that is the correct date.
16 MS. LEE:
17 Q. And the time?
18 A. The man, the policeman, arrived about one to one and a half hours
19 after we met in the Jasen restaurant. I don't know when he was received
20 at the health clinic, though.
21 MS. LEE: Your Honour, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 04689C into
22 evidence under seal.
23 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: P1477, Your Honours.
Page 11427
1 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence under seal.
2 MS. LEE:
3 Q. Witness, in the log -- in the medical log here, it indicates
4 that - I'm sorry, let me just see - the place of wounding was Kravica and
5 not Sandici. Do you know whether or not this man was wounded in Kravica?
6 A. Sandici is in the area of Kravica. It is very close by. I think
7 I heard that he was wounded in Sandici which is a part of Kravica, so one
8 could say that he became injured in Kravica. I think I heard it happened
9 in Sandici.
10 Q. In your prior testimony, you also mentioned that one of his
11 colleague was killed at the same incident. Do you recall that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And on the screen before you, can I refer you to entry number
14 1491. And it indicates here under "unit" it says "Special police
15 Skelani" and "place of wounding: Kravica."
16 JUDGE ORIE: No.
17 Mr. Mladic, no loud speaking. Could we check, sooner or later,
18 whether it's the earphones or whether it's the plugs because if it's the
19 earphones then perhaps Mr. Mladic should use earphones.
20 Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: It has to be used another plug, so -- you know,
22 because it's protected voice.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see. That's --
24 MR. LUKIC: That was the problem.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That was the problem. Yes. Could we next time,
Page 11428
1 could we prepare this before the hearing, because we know exactly when
2 there will be voice distortion and so to avoid this -- these kind of
3 interruptions.
4 Ms. Lee, you may proceed.
5 MS. LEE: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours.
6 Q. And on this entry 1491 it says "Deceased" in the Latin version.
7 In the B/C/S version it actually says -- it's a Latin form of the word
8 "deceased."
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We should go to the right part of the document.
10 It's done now.
11 MS. LEE: Thank you.
12 Q. Under the column diagnosis it says "exitus letalis," which is the
13 latin term for diseased. Is this consistent with what you learned about
14 the second policeman and what you learned about the fate of the second
15 policeman during that meeting in Jasen restaurant?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. LEE: Your Honour, may we please go into private session.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
19 [Private session]
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Page 11429
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17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session. Thank
19 you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
21 MS. LEE:
22 Q. Witness, do you know if the people that were to be buried in
23 Milici, do you know if they were still alive at that time?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. And did Beara tell you where these bodies would be coming from?
Page 11430
1 A. No.
2 MS. LEE: And may I please have 65 ter 27981 on e-court on
3 page --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Lee, I have a question on this exhibit
5 that's on the screen before it moves away.
6 Witness, I think you testified today that incident 1490 and
7 incident 1491 took place at the same time or in the same incident; is
8 that correct?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see that 1490 is said to have taken place at
11 1740, the other one at 1900. Is that perhaps a mistake of the person who
12 filled in this form, or are you able to give an explanation?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stated in accordance with what I
14 could hear that evening when I talked to Mr. Ljubisa Borovcanin and the
15 rest. I was told that the policeman who arrived in the Jasen restaurant
16 where we were had been injured when seizing a rifle from a Muslim man.
17 The Muslim man had previously grabbed and taken away the rifle from a
18 special unit policeman, killing them with his own rifle.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Killing him with his
20 own rifle.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My statement is in accordance with
23 what I heard at the time.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 Madam Lee, I don't know whether you have anything to do with that
Page 11431
1 but --
2 MS. LEE: I will ask one additional question in relation to this
3 exhibit.
4 Q. Witness, would you know when the corpse of the policeman who
5 died, would you know whether or not -- I mean, do you know whether or not
6 the corpse came at the same time, came into the Bratunac health clinic at
7 the same time as the man who had been injured on his left-hand?
8 A. I don't know that.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Lee. The form says "date of
10 wounding," not "date of admission" or "arriving at the health centre."
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on.
12 MS. LEE: May I please have 65 ter 27981 on e-court at page 11.
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21 JUDGE ORIE: Could we briefly turn into private session.
22 [Private session]
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Page 11432
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12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session. Thank
14 you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
16 MS. LEE:
17 Q. Witness, on this picture could you please mark the large grave
18 that you mentioned before -- actually, could you please locate and circle
19 the four pits that you just mentioned.
20 A. The big pit that is light coloured is this, roughly. There was a
21 smaller one next to it. Now, whether it's exactly here or a bit lower
22 but that would be the location. And two smaller ones were in front of
23 this house here, like this.
24 MS. LEE: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders this aerial image
25 as marked by this witness as the next public exhibit.
Page 11435
1 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: P1478, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence.
5 MS. LEE: And it is -- I will now -- I would like to have page 50
6 of P111 -- 1132 which is on the screen. And again, I would like the
7 witness to make markings on the picture that is going to be coming up and
8 so could the witness be assisted.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be assisted.
10 MS. LEE: I apologise, Your Honour. I would like to have P1132
11 on e-court at page 50, and I was just told that this picture on the
12 screen at the moment does not form part of the 1132, and I apologise.
13 Q. Witness, do you recognise this picture as the one that you
14 reviewed during your preparation for your testimony here today?
15 A. Yes.
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Page 11437
1 MS. LEE: Can we please go into private session, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
3 MS. LEE: And could the last --
4 JUDGE ORIE: One second. One second, Ms. Lee.
5 [Private session]
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Page 11438
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
3 you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
5 MS. LEE:
6 Q. Witness, on --
7 MS. LEE: Before I ask the question, may I please have page 99 of
8 P1132 that is on our screen.
9 Q. And while that is being brought up, Witness, you previously
10 testify that on the same day that you met with Borovcanin you were
11 driving from Bratunac towards Konjevic Polje and that you witnessed the
12 killing of five men by men in camouflage uniform while driving by the
13 Kravica warehouse. And you also testified that you saw a pile of dead
14 bodies right next to the killing. Do you recall approximately how many
15 bodies were piled next to the killing that you witnessed?
16 A. In addition to the five persons that I saw, when this man in
17 green camouflage uniform killed all five who were lying on the grass in
18 front of this tarmac area, there was this other pile of killed people
19 lying to the left of these five who were on the grass. It was roughly
20 about 40 to 50 persons in my estimate.
21 Q. And, Witness, do you recognise the picture on the screen as the
22 one that you reviewed during you preparation of your testimony here
23 today?
24 A. These are facilities of the agricultural co-operative of Kravica.
25 We call it the OK Kravica. And they exist to this day.
Page 11439
1 Q. Do you see the road that you were driving on from Bratunac to
2 Konjevic Polje on this picture?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And could you please mark with an arrow the direction towards
5 which you were driving on the 13th of July, 1995, where you saw the
6 killing of the five men that you just mentioned.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. And could you please mark with an X and put a small 1 beside it
9 at the location where you saw the execution of the five men.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. And could you please mark with an X and put a small number 2
12 beside it where you saw the dead bodies piled, the 40 to 50 bodies that
13 you just mentioned.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. And do you know what happened to those bodies?
16 A. All of these bodies or corpses were transported to Glogova and
17 buried in the grave that had been dug.
18 MS. LEE: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders this image as
19 marked by the witness as the next public exhibit.
20 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: P1480, Your Honours. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence.
24 MS. LEE:
25 Q. Witness, in your prior testimony you said that you saw three
Page 11440
1 buses in front of the municipality building sometime in July 1995 and
2 that you brought water to people who were in the buses. Do you know
3 what -- the ethnicity of the people that were in the buses?
4 A. They were of Muslim ethnicity.
5 MS. LEE: Your Honours, can we please go into private session.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
7 [Private session]
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12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
15 MS. LEE:
16 Q. Witness, how many bodies would you say were collected and buried
17 in Glogova, the grave-site?
18 A. In my estimate and in terms of the number of trucks that came to
19 the location where the dead were being buried, I think there were between
20 400 and 500 buried persons -- or, rather, collected by Konjevic Polje,
21 the road between Kravica, Konjevic Polje, and around the school in
22 Vuk Karadzic in Bratunac.
23 Q. And, Witness, would you be surprised if you were told that over
24 1.000 bodies were buried at this Glogova grave-site?
25 (redacted)
Page 11443
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8 MS. LEE: Your Honour, I have no further questions for this
9 witness. And if we could briefly go into private session.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's about time for a break, but if you
11 have -- if there is a matter which preferably should be dealt with before
12 the break, then we go into private session.
13 Perhaps could we go already into closed session so that the
14 witness can leave the courtroom in a second.
15 [Closed session]
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8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session. Thank
10 you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
13 Q. Sir, now we are in open session. If any of my questions lead you
14 to believe that to answer them we need to go into private session, please
15 let me know and I will gladly go back into private session. Is that
16 understood?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I want to now focus with you on the concept of the sanitization
19 of the battle-field or "asanacija terena" under the system in place in
20 the former Yugoslavia. Did that involve not only a removal but also the
21 burial of bodies and the marking of locations of graves?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And is it correct that during wartime conditions it was normal
24 for the civil protection service to co-ordinate with the military for
25 these kinds of duties receiving orders through civilian organs?
Page 11448
1 A. I think that in wartime conditions, much as we receive orders
2 from civilian authorities, it was also normal to receive instructions and
3 orders from military authorities.
4 Q. And -- and if -- I'd like to now move forward to the events of
5 July 1995. And when you talk about the activities that you have
6 described in your Rule 92 ter transcript and your direct testimony in
7 relation to the picking up of bodies and taking them to Glogova for
8 burial, would you agree with me that the duties performed by those
9 picking up the bodies and taking them for burial were in accord with what
10 was expected of the civil protection service?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And would that all fall under the rubric of clearing or
13 sanitization of the terrain, "asanacija terena"?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. We do need to go back into
16 private session to protect the identity.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
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14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
16 you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
19 Q. Now, sir, would you agree with me that in the time-period we are
20 talking about during July of 1995 when these activities were underway,
21 the collection and burial of the bodies, that there were legitimate
22 concerns of ongoing fighting and combat between members of the Serb
23 forces on the one hand and armed Bosnian Muslims from Srebrenica
24 precisely in the forests and areas around Srebrenica and Bratunac?
25 A. I have to ask you to repeat the very beginning of your question
Page 11454
1 and I apologise for that.
2 Q. Absolutely. No problem. No apology needed. Sir, would you
3 agree with me that during the time-period we are talking about of
4 July of 1995, the time-period when the collection and burial of the
5 bodies at Glogova was underway, that there were legitimate concerns of
6 ongoing fighting and combat between members of the Serbian forces on the
7 one hand and armed Bosnian Muslims from Srebrenica in the forests and
8 areas around Srebrenica and Bratunac?
9 A. Of course there was concern concerning the situation that
10 Bratunac and its environs were in at the time.
11 Q. And I want to ask you about something. Do you have knowledge of
12 water cisterns having been filled and brought to refresh Bosnian males
13 detained at the meadow in Sandici and Loci at some point in time on the
14 13th of July, 1995?
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if we could briefly go into private
21 session.
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
24 [Private session]
25 (redacted)
Page 11455
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8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session. Thank
10 you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 Can we please have up on the screen P1478 which was marked during
14 the direct examination.
15 Q. Sir, you were asked to identify the location of the graves in
16 this photograph, and I want to ask you: Focusing on the mass or communal
17 graves that you identified, the four in total at Glogova, from the
18 perspective of the requirements of the Yugoslav system of civil
19 protection service, were these graves out of the ordinary or were they in
20 accord with the requirements of the civil protection service for burying
21 corpses of war casualties?
22 A. These were graves that had been dug of the most ordinary kind
23 without any particular dimensions. Quite simply, a pit was to be dug
24 where corpses would be buried.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you repeatedly referred again to the
Page 11460
1 rules applicable. Is there any way that the Chamber could have a look at
2 them so as to be able to -- I don't know whether the parties are both
3 interested in the Chamber to look at them, because in order to verify the
4 accuracy of the answers, of course, we would have to know it.
5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I believe I referred to the system,
6 not the rules.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you asked the witness -- let me see:
8 "... were they in accord with the requirements of the civil
9 protection service for burying corpses of war casualties?"
10 So I take it then that the requirements are written down
11 somewhere or is it just that --
12 MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- it was a common understanding of what it was?
14 I'm asking this also because the witness says that it was quite ordinary
15 grave, well, rough estimate is that it's 20 metres long, which is for
16 most of the graves not the ordinary size. So therefore, the Chamber
17 would like to fully understand both your question and the answers. When
18 you referred to the requirements, what did you exactly refer to?
19 MR. IVETIC: The civil protection system and "asanacija terena"
20 or sanitization of terrain as understood under that system and under the
21 Law of Defence and the obligation of the civil [overlapping speakers].
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. I do see if you say it is the system
23 under the law or the system applicable at the time. Of course, that does
24 not greatly assist the Chamber in -- in having the ability to verify the
25 answers. I mean, I take it that you, apart from repeating the words,
Page 11461
1 that there must be somewhere some rules or some -- you refer to a law.
2 Do you have any specific paragraphs of that law, any provisions of that
3 law in your mind? I mean, we're here -- we're really trying to
4 understand what the evidence is, and it's very difficult for us to do
5 that without this assistance. I mean, if --
6 MR. IVETIC: Perhaps you --
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- you're talking about that law, do you have
8 specific provisions in mind?
9 MR. IVETIC: As I stand here now I do not, but perhaps if we were
10 to examine certain aspects of the witness we might get an understanding.
11 And perhaps to be on the safe side we should then go into private
12 session.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We're quite willing to go into private session for
14 this purpose.
15 Let's move into private session.
16 [Private session]
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16 [Closed session]
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13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
15 you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
17 MR. IVETIC: If we can call up again number -- Exhibit P1478.
18 Q. And, sir, while we wait for that, I am going to be focusing again
19 on that Glogova location that you identified. And again, we have the
20 picture that you marked on the screen. I'd like to ask you, sir, is it
21 correct that after you were interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor
22 in 2000, a few months later you had occasion to be called to this
23 location that's on the screen in Glogova by a Mr. Ruez of the
24 Office of the Prosecutor?
25 A. Yes.
Page 11478
1 Q. And is it correct that at that time when you were at this
2 location with Mr. Ruez that he advised you that the mass or communal
3 grave that you had identified in this photograph had been dug up and
4 reburied in another location by Momir Nikolic, the corpses being "stolen"
5 I think is the way that he described it to you. Do you remember him
6 advising you of that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And at that time did Mr. Ruez tell you about a grave nearby that
9 did contain some bodies that Mr. Nikolic had not dug up or stolen that
10 were buried near to these graves that you have identified in this
11 photograph? Do you recall that, sir?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. If we can focus on those bodies that were found by Mr. Ruez,
14 those are the ones that were, I believe, connected together by wire, am I
15 correct that those were not bodies of which you had knowledge of being
16 buried at that location?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And so that those bodies identified by Mr. Ruez that were
19 connected by wire would not have been part of the activities that you
20 have knowledge of that relate to the burial of bodies at Glogova for
21 which you have testified about took place in July of 1995?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And now as to the bodies that Mr. Ruez described that Mr. Nikolic
24 had stolen and reburied, am I correct that they not only included bodies
25 from this 1995 grave that you -- that you've talked about in Glogova but
Page 11479
1 also included a number of bodies from a nearby communal grave dating from
2 1992?
3 A. I have to apologise yet again. Please repeat your question. It
4 is unclear to me. 1992, the reference to it.
5 Q. Let me try again, sir. Is it correct, sir, that the -- that the
6 removal of bodies by Mr. Nikolic as relayed to you by Mr. Ruez - and he
7 identified where these bodies had been dug up from - that this included
8 not only the four locations that you have marked on this map dating from
9 July of 1995 but also included a nearby communal grave that had been dug
10 and buried in 1992?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, let's first establish whether the
12 witness knows anything about that.
13 Witness, do you know anything about bodies taken -- buried in
14 1992 and then moved to a graveyard shown to you by Mr. Ruez?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When speaking to Mr. Ruez in
16 relation to the burial of the bodies at this location or, rather, at
17 these four communal graves, when I showed him where the graves were he
18 asked me whether I knew where those corpses were now. And I said I
19 didn't know. And he said it was Mr. Momir Nikolic that stole these
20 corpses and moved them to a different location. Then he asked me the
21 following. He asked me whether I knew about a grave that was a bit
22 further up compared to this one. Under a small hill, a small forest.
23 They asked whether I had dug -- whether we had dug that one out. And I
24 said, "If we did this then we probably did that one too." And then he
25 said, "Are you sure?" And then I said, "Well, it's possible since we
Page 11480
1 were digging, we were digging that too." You see, he said to me,
2 "Mr. Momir stole these corpses from here but didn't manage to steal the
3 other ones from there." This is where we found 12 corpses. It was up
4 to, say, 10 metres that the grave was long, and they were tied with wire
5 two by two, and then they were shot with bullets in the forehead. And I
6 said, "We didn't dig that then, because I don't know about that."
7 And as for 1992 that Mr. Ivetic has just mentioned, I didn't even
8 hear about that from Mr. Ruez and I didn't know that it was from 1992. I
9 thought that this was 1995 as well, because of the statement of Mr. Ruez
10 that this was Mr. Lazar Ostojic, commander of a battalion, and his troops
11 caught people in the forest or killed people who had surrendered. That
12 was my understanding that that was 1995, not 1992.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, did you go together with Mr. Ruez
14 to the communal graves, the four? Did you go to that, I would say,
15 communal ordinary graveyard?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, did you take him there or did he
18 take you there?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It had been agreed when I was in
20 Banja Luka that they would call me one day so that we go up there
21 together. That one particular day did happen, so I was informed that
22 Mr. Ruez was waiting for me at the point where the old Kravica road forks
23 off the main road and that I should come in my own car so that the
24 citizenry, the population would not see that I was driving around with
25 him in his car. So then we went together -- actually, I came there, and
Page 11481
1 then we went to this location where there were quite a few soldiers and
2 quite a few people in white coats, some buses, and so on.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. I am not seeking the whole
4 story. That communal graveyard, the four graves we are talking about.
5 Did he suggest that you'd go there?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Did you know -- did you see there the empty graves?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Did you know whose graves those were?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How could I not know? I knew
11 because we were the ones who dug those graves in Glogova.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I am talking about the communal graveyard that is
13 not one of the graves you dug but apparently an existing grave-site which
14 has then been for a long period of time. Did you go to any such, if I
15 could say so, ordinary graveyard, cemetery?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. No other cemetery except
17 for these four communal graves that were there.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any personal knowledge about bodies
19 being taken from or stolen from one grave and brought to another grave?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
23 Q. I believe you mentioned earlier, and perhaps I can -- I can ask
24 you about this: Am I correct that there was a communal grave that was
25 dug and buried in 1992 about 1 to 1 and a half kilometres from the Drina
Page 11482
1 bridge in Bratunac which contained 100 to 150 bodies from 1992?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And with relation to that communal or mass grave dating from
4 1992, am I correct that you have information that Mr. Nikolic also dug up
5 those bodies when the bodies were dug up from Glogova, whenever that
6 happened?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And is that information that you relayed to Mr. Ruez when he told
9 you about Mr. Nikolic's actions in stealing the bodies that were at
10 Glogova and reburying them elsewhere?
11 A. That's what Mr. Ruez said to me, that Mr. Nikolic --
12 Mr. Momir Nikolic had stole these corpses from this mass grave, and I
13 took Mr. Ruez to the location where we had buried the bodies that we
14 gathered at the hangar by the Vuk Karadzic school in 1992.
15 Q. Thank you. And now in relation to this 1992 grave, I'd like to
16 take a moment to look at a document but not have it be broadcast since we
17 are in open session.
18 MR. IVETIC: It's 1D00986.
19 Q. And, sir, to be very overprotective of your identity, I'm not
20 going to mention the date or the entity to whom this document was taken
21 before. And I would ask that you be very careful in answering my
22 questions not to repeat any of that information as that might lead to
23 your identity being made known.
24 Now I'd like to ask you, looking at this document, sir, and
25 looking at the first page, do you recognise this document as something
Page 11483
1 that you may have been involved in generating or giving to a particular
2 organ in -- in the former Yugoslavia? Do you recognise the document,
3 sir?
4 A. Yes, I remember this.
5 Q. And is that, in fact, your signature halfway down the page on the
6 B/C/S -- on the Serbian original?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. IVETIC: And if we could go to the last page in both
9 versions.
10 Q. Again, without mentioning any other information, sir, I would
11 just ask you to look at the signature and confirm if indeed the --
12 MR. IVETIC: And again the last page should not be broadcast.
13 Q. If you look at the signature, can you confirm that that is your
14 signature as the witness giving this document on the -- the first
15 signature?
16 A. Yes, that's my signature.
17 MR. IVETIC: I believe we still have to wait for the last page to
18 be called up.
19 Q. And now that we have the last page up, sir, could you confirm for
20 me whether, in fact, this is your signature as the person having given
21 this document to the individuals identified?
22 A. Yes, this is my signature, too.
23 Q. And, sir, this -- you had -- you said that you identified -- that
24 you did remember this document. Am I correct it relates to your
25 knowledge of the work done in relation to the 100 to 150 bodies that were
Page 11484
1 buried in 1992, the investigative forensic work that was done in 1992?
2 Is this an accurate description of this document that you have verified
3 that you signed?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. IVETIC: And if we could just briefly go into
6 private session. I'd like to ask a few details.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
8 [Private session]
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20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
22 you.
23 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
24 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to rewind our focus to the time-period before
25 July 1995, that is the months and years leading up to July 1995. Can you
Page 11487
1 tell me, sir, if you had knowledge or information about any armed raids
2 or attacks conducted by Bosnian Muslim fighters from Srebrenica aimed at
3 Serb villages surrounding Srebrenica during that time-period?
4 A. I did not quite understand what you were saying, but even the
5 part I did understand, well, I think when war operations are on, I wasn't
6 really knowledgeable about that. I didn't know about that. I was not a
7 member of the Army of Republika Srpska. I was a civilian.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Did you know anything about Bosnian Muslim soldiers
9 attacking villages in and around Srebrenica before July 1995?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, I did know. They attacked in
11 Bjelovac, Kravica, all the villages that gravitated towards Srebrenica.
12 So just the town of Bratunac. And I mean down the Drina, those -- well,
13 they attacked all the rest and killed people.
14 MR. IVETIC:
15 Q. Do you have any information as to the number of Serb either --
16 Serb civilians that would have perished or have been killed as a result
17 of these attacks that you have just identified?
18 (redacted)
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Page 11488
1 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I want to ask you about something that you
2 testified about, and I --
3 MR. IVETIC: To be safe, we should go into private session since
4 I think part of it might have been in private session.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Where he move into private session.
6 [Private session]
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21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session. Thank
23 you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. We adjourn for the day
25 and we'll resume tomorrow, Friday, the 24th of May, at 9.30 in the
Page 11503
1 morning in this same courtroom III.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.
3 to be reconvened on Friday, the 24th day
4 of May, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.
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