Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13026

 1                           Thursday, 20 June 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.  Madam Registrar, would

 6     you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems that our transcriber has no audio or ...

 9     apparently he can't hear us, which does not appear on the transcript, of

10     course, then.  Can you now hear me?  Yes, apparently.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

12     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And this all happened after I had invited you

14     to call the case and after we had resolved an audio problem for our

15     transcriber.

16             No preliminaries.  Therefore the witness can be escorted into the

17     courtroom.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19                           WITNESS:  PETAR SALAPURA [Resumed]

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Salapura.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to remind you that you are still bound

24     by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your

25     testimony, that is that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth and

Page 13027

 1     nothing but the truth.  Mr. Vanderpuye will now continue his

 2     examination-in-chief.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President, good morning

 4     to you, Your Honours.

 5                           Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]

 6        Q.   Good morning to you, Colonel.

 7             Let me start by asking you this, Colonel Salapura.  When you

 8     returned to the -- or, rather, arrived, I should say, at the command post

 9     at the VRS on 13 July in the afternoon, did you hear anything further

10     about the prisoners that you'd seen earlier at Nova Kasaba, the football

11     stadium?

12        A.   No.  I didn't hear anything over there.  I don't think that any

13     of those who were there had any information.  During my presence there,

14     we were not receiving any information from the AOR of the Drina Corps.

15     I only found my desk officer for electronic reconnaissance there and a

16     warrant officer who was in charge of the logbook where documents were

17     filed and so on, in my department.

18        Q.   Did you, yourself, Colonel, report your observations concerning

19     the prisoners that you had seen earlier that day to anyone at the

20     Main Staff when you returned that afternoon?

21        A.   No, I didn't.  It was only natural.  One operation ended, I saw

22     prisoners standing in the football pitch, just as when I was in Potocari,

23     I saw a relaxed movement, nothing special, and nothing out of the

24     ordinary or not normal.  And it is only natural that such a large

25     operation would have so many prisoners.

Page 13028

 1        Q.   You didn't actually -- let me ask:  Did you make arrangements or

 2     take any steps to see that those prisoners were interrogated or

 3     investigated for the purposes of your intelligence function as a chief of

 4     the intelligence administration?

 5        A.   Well, I didn't take any steps.  I wasn't able to either.  Firstly

 6     because this was already in the course of preparations for the operation,

 7     the orders and documents of the commanders regulated all these

 8     arrangements.  I didn't take part in either the planning or the

 9     implementation stage of the operation, nor was I authorised to interfere

10     with these affairs.  With my departure to Banja Luka for my sick leave

11     and medical treatment, we agreed and General Tolimir took over the duty

12     to coordinate the work of all these organs in the eastern area, whereas

13     I was supposed to monitor the events in the west, as far as I was able

14     to, along with the 410th Intelligence Centre, especially the developments

15     with regard to the aggression by Croatia and their attack on Bosnian

16     Krajina.  So those were my assignments.

17        Q.   Okay.  So the short answer is that you didn't take any steps to

18     see that the prisoners that you had earlier seen in Nova Kasaba were

19     questioned or intelligence obtained from them, is that -- is that fair to

20     say?

21        A.   I didn't take such steps, nor was I able to, but somebody else

22     probably did.  The interrogation of prisoners of war starts from the

23     battalion level and the organs there, and then up to the brigade, and

24     everything else is already done in the POW camps, according to our rules.

25        Q.   Okay, Colonel.  Let me show you P1501.  This is a document you've

Page 13029

 1     seen before, I'm sure.  It's the Zvornik Brigade duty officer notebook.

 2     I'd like to take you to page 41 of the English and page 40 in the B/C/S,

 3     which reflects an entry on 14 July.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Just for the purposes of the Registry, this is

 5     the same document, the English is just the next page over, so it will be

 6     page 41.  There we have it.

 7        Q.   You can see at the bottom of the page, for you, Colonel, the

 8     handwriting in your language, but it reflects the entry:

 9             "Colonel Salapura called" --

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   -- "Drago and Beara are to report to Golic."

12             Do you have any further recollection of this particular message

13     than you did the last time you testified?

14        A.   No.  This was the second day of my presence there.  I don't think

15     that I can possibly remember anything else.  Interestingly enough, there

16     is no time indicating when the message was received.  I might have

17     received it or probably received it at lunchtime or at dinner time.  When

18     Mandic, who was the only officer there, when they went to have their

19     dinner, I was the one who stayed behind and I probably then received the

20     message and conveyed it further.  I might have received the message

21     from --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Salapura, we are interested in what you

23     remember, not in what could possibly, whether it was a lunch, breakfast

24     or dinner, that is all -- these are not facts.  These are attempts to

25     explain matters of which you say you have no recollection.  Let's stick

Page 13030

 1     to the facts.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 4        Q.   Colonel, do you know what Colonel Beara or Major Golic or

 5     Drago Nikolic were involved in on the 14th of July, 1995, up in the

 6     Zvornik area at least as concerns Drago Nikolic and Colonel Beara?

 7        A.   This was a different service, security service.  I really don't

 8     know.  They were working according to their own plan, according to a plan

 9     that I was not involved in.  I didn't know what was being done on that

10     day.  I did not get involved in the command and control system.  I stayed

11     there by happenstance.  I was not able to go back to Banja Luka because

12     the road was closed.

13        Q.   Let me show you an entry at page --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we --

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I read here:  "Colonel Salapura called Drago and

17     Beara are to report to Golic," which in my understanding of the English

18     language would mean that it was the Colonel who called, whereas part of

19     his answer seems to be that he received a call.  Could we clarify that?

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  I do

21     appreciate that.  I hadn't noticed it in the transcript.

22        Q.   Colonel, do you have any recollection of calling the

23     Zvornik Brigade duty officer to leave the message that's indicated here

24     for Drago Nikolic and Colonel Beara to report to Major Golic?

25        A.   No.  I don't recall the details, but if I may explain something,

Page 13031

 1     Golic --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.  You are not here to explain unless you

 3     explain facts.  You say you don't recall the details.  What do you

 4     recall?  If it is -- even if it is without details.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To state the fact.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please do so.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will explain this fact only

 8     without going into detail.  Golic was an officer, a Major in the

 9     intelligence service.  The two mentioned here, Drago Nikolic and Beara,

10     they were in the security service.  This term is -- this is an

11     assumption, it's something that was mentioned in the Tolimir case.  Not

12     that he should report -- he wouldn't say report to Vlasenica but report

13     to Golic, not to report to Han Pijesak, report to Salapura.  So I assume

14     that that that's the same message.  Nothing else.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  We are not interested in your assumptions at

16     this moment, unless Mr. Vanderpuye asks questions, again we would like to

17     know facts.  The book says "Colonel Salapura called," your answer is, "I

18     don't have a recollection that I did."  We leave it to that.  Please

19     proceed.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21        Q.   Just so that we are clear, I can't see if it's reflected in

22     there, you don't have a recollection as to what Drago Nikolic and

23     Colonel Beara were doing in the Zvornik area on the 14th of July, 1995,

24     is that -- is that right?

25        A.   That's right.  It's also true that I didn't have any contact

Page 13032

 1     whatsoever in this period with Beara or Drago Nikolic.  I didn't see him

 2     at all.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The answer is given by "that's right."  You are

 4     explaining a lot of things.  We are interested in what you could tell us

 5     about the facts, just that.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could go, please, to page 45 in the

 8     English and page 44 in the B/C/S of the same exhibit.

 9        Q.   What you should see in your own language, Colonel, is an entry

10     beginning with 1500 hours and it says, "Colonel Beara is coming in order

11     to," and then it says, "Orovac, Petkovci, Rocevic, Pilica."  Can you see

12     that entry, sir?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Do you know what that concerns?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Do you know what Colonel Beara was doing in relation to these

17     locations, Orahovac - "Orovac" it says in here but the Chamber has heard

18     evidence that it refers to Orahovac - Petkovci, Rocevic, and Pilica?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.  I think that the

21     witness answered the question in his previous answer.  So this is an

22     answered question.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness said "no," interpreter's note.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  This question focuses and certain specific

25     locations, but to that extent, it is not exactly the same, but the

Page 13033

 1     witness has answered the question and I think we can proceed,

 2     Mr. Vanderpuye.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   I just want to show you a couple of entries and then I'll turn

 5     you over to the Defence.  One is at page 54 in the B/C/S, page 55 in the

 6     English.  Here we can see another reference in the middle of the page to

 7     Beara and it says "to call 155."

 8             Are you familiar with that extension or that number in the

 9     context of the Main Staff of the VRS?

10        A.   I don't remember.  It's been a long time.  I can't remember which

11     number that was.

12        Q.   Let me show you page 78 in the B/C/S and page 79 in the English,

13     see if that helps refresh your recollection.  This is an entry on the

14     16th of July but it refers to, again, 155, you can see at the bottom of

15     the page.  And there it says, "Beara to call Panorama 155."

16             Does that help refresh your recollection as to what that number

17     relates to in the context of the Main Staff?

18        A.   No.  I told you that I did not participate in the planning, and

19     these are code names, so, no.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You've given the answer.  Please proceed,

21     Mr. Vanderpuye.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23        Q.   When you -- you mentioned at the very beginning of your evidence

24     that you learned about the participation of the 10th Sabotage Detachment

25     in the Srebrenica-related executions from its commander Milorad Pelemis.

Page 13034

 1     I think you said perhaps late December 1995 or early 1996.  Is that your

 2     recollection?

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection, Mr. Stojanovic?

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Misstatement.  The witness did

 7     not say that he learned of the participation of the 10th Sabotage

 8     Detachment but, rather, of individual members of that detachment.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'll accept that.

10        Q.   Is that your recollection?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   When you had your conversation with Pelemis, the commander, did

13     he tell you about the involvement of the unit or members of the unit at

14     any of the locations that I just showed you in the duty officer logbook,

15     that is, in relation to Pilica, Rocevic, Petkovci or Orahovac?

16        A.   No.  I didn't ask that from him either.

17        Q.   Did he tell you about the involvement of members of the

18     10th Sabotage Detachment in the executions at Bisina, near Sekovici?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   And in relation to what he told you about participation of

21     members of the unit in the executions related to Srebrenica, did you

22     personally take any action with respect to that?

23        A.   I didn't because this was not my jurisdiction.  I think that

24     measures had already been taken, such as investigative measures, but

25     I did not get involved in that.

Page 13035

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You didn't because it was not within your

 2     jurisdiction.  That's the answer to the question.  What you think,

 3     whether measures were taken, et cetera, if you're aware of any measures,

 4     tell us.  But what you think, just as a vague expression of what might

 5     have happened, doesn't assist the Chamber.  Do you have any specific

 6     information about measures taken by others?  When, by whom, what?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't, but --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That's an answer to my question.  Please proceed,

 9     Mr. Vanderpuye.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   In respect of what Pelemis told you concerning the participation

12     of members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment in these crimes, you did,

13     nevertheless, request that these members be provided with new

14     identifications from the Minister of the Interior, Dragan Kijac, in

15     January of 1996.  Was that done on the authorisation of your commander?

16        A.   No.  I submitted that request on my own initiative.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And, Mr. Vanderpuye, could I ask the witness, was

18     that within your jurisdiction to provide others with new identity cards?

19     Was that part of your job?  And where is that described?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The duties that I was performing,

21     as well as others, included such cases.  I think that it was used in many

22     other services across the world.  But this had a completely different

23     goal.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  My first question was -- and the reference to the

25     rest of the world is rather vague as a legal basis for providing new IDs.

Page 13036

 1     My question was whether it was within your jurisdiction and where that is

 2     described.  Do you have any text where it says, "In my position I am

 3     there to provide new IDs"?  Anywhere specific?  If not, we'll move on.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have anything specific.  If

 5     need be I can only explain why I did it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Vanderpuye, if you're interested to know

 7     why the witness did it, please proceed.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 9        Q.   No, I think we have that already in your prior evidence, sir.  It

10     is fair to say, though, that the eight nationals for which you requested

11     the identification were individuals that you believed had been indicted

12     by The Hague Tribunal and that was one of the reasons that was indicated

13     in the specific request that you made in 16 January 1996 for the issuance

14     of those identifications; is that right, sir?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Let's take a look at --

17        A.   I know that's what it says, what it says is accurate, but why did

18     I write it, if I can explain?

19        Q.   What I've asked you is what I've asked you.  If you want to

20     answer a different question, then wait for it to be posed.  But I'd like

21     to show this document to you so that we can all see it.

22        A.   All right.

23        Q.   It's P1586.  This is the document that I was referring to.  You

24     can see that it's dated -- I see the B/C/S is kind of faint.  But we can

25     see the date at the top, 16 January 1996, and the substance of it --

Page 13037

 1     well, it's directed to the Minister of the Interior, to the minister

 2     personally, and beneath that it reflects the following:

 3             "Considering that we have a group of members of the 10th Sabotage

 4     Detachment who are foreign citizens or are on a list of individuals who

 5     have been indicted by The Hague Tribunal, we ask that you order the

 6     Bijeljina MUP to issue personal IDs with Serbian first and last names to

 7     these individuals or with different first and last names for Serbian

 8     nationals.  There are eight such individuals."

 9             You wrote this, correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And it was directed to the Minister of the Interior, correct?

12        A.   That is correct.

13        Q.   And for you to have done this, it would have been done on the

14     approval of General Tolimir, right?

15        A.   Yes.  Most likely there was a reason.  Probably Tolimir wasn't

16     there, so I was there in his stead.  I don't know.

17        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have no further questions, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.

20             Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to start your cross-examination?

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, sir, good morning.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Salapura, you'll now be cross-examined by

24     Mr. Stojanovic.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 13038

 1        Q.   I'll start with the latest question pertaining to the

 2     10th Sabotage Detachment.  I wanted to ask you to explain to the Court

 3     when it was created.

 4        A.   As a matter of fact, it was in 1994, at least in this form that

 5     was later on supplemented.  Before the detachment -- sorry, well, the VRS

 6     was created on the basis of the 2nd Military District.  By the same

 7     token, there was the 5th and then the 2nd Sabotage Detachment.  It was

 8     disbanded because it had suffered significant losses, so it became nearly

 9     non-existent.  And later on, the other one was established.

10        Q.   What was the point, the idea, of establishing such a detachment

11     with the Main Staff of the VRS?

12        A.   The exclusive task of that detachment was to carry out combat

13     activities in enemy territory, so it included sabotage and reconnaissance

14     activities deep inside enemy territory.

15        Q.   What was the make-up, the ethnic make-up, in the detachment?  Was

16     it of -- were the members of mixed ethnicity?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   What prompted the VRS to establish a multi-ethnic formation in a

19     unit of this kind?

20        A.   Well, there were several circumstances which affected it.  There

21     were some members of other ethnicities who volunteered and who had their

22     military specialty from the time when they had served their military

23     service.

24        Q.   Is it correct that in the 10th Sabotage Detachment, there were

25     Slovenians, Croats, Muslims?

Page 13039

 1        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 2        Q.   When the war activities ended, did such individuals have problems

 3     with the authorities of their own states or entities for their

 4     participation in the VRS?

 5        A.   Well, they didn't go there.  They remained in VRS territory or

 6     went abroad.  However, when they were still there, there was some

 7     interest on the part of the AID for the persons in that unit.  That was

 8     the extent of information we had.

 9        Q.   Is it for that reason that they asked for their identity to be

10     changed?

11        A.   Yes.  A change of identity --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, we don't have any evidence to the

13     effect that they asked for their identities to be changed.  What we have

14     from the exhibit that was shown was that the witness asked their identity

15     to be changed.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Then I

17     will lay a foundation.

18        Q.   Colonel, were there requests by members of the 10th Sabotage

19     Detachment to have their identities changed?

20        A.   No, it was our assessment that it was necessary to do that.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Kindly tell us, until what time did the unit exist as

22     an autonomous unit of the VRS?

23        A.   It existed until after the war, until 1996, I believe.

24        Q.   Thank you.  I will try to deal briefly with the facts and I'll

25     try to be as focused on that as possible, and I want to go back to your

Page 13040

 1     statement and discuss the chronology.  To the best of your recollection,

 2     on the 12th of July, when did you arrive in Bijeljina attempting to

 3     contact the Main Staff?

 4        A.   Upon my return from Belgrade, which was in the early evening or

 5     sometime later in the evening.

 6        Q.   You were accompanied by two members from your Main Staff organ?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Let us try -- actually, can you explain briefly the composition

 9     of the intelligence organ and its composition in July 1995?

10        A.   The intelligence organ included myself, as the chief of

11     intelligence administration.  Then there was the head of the analysis

12     department, who was also my deputy.  There was a desk officer for

13     electronic reconnaissance, as well as two officers in the analysis

14     department.  There was a general desk officer, who was a warrant officer,

15     and my driver.

16        Q.   So how many people in total, in July 1995?

17        A.   Is it five or six?  I don't know.  A few.  So myself, Jovica,

18     Slobo, Jankovic, Mirkovic, six people, yes.

19        Q.   You mentioned Jankovic's name.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   I wanted to ask you who is this person with the last name of

22     Jankovic?

23        A.   He was a Lieutenant-Colonel at the time.  He was in the analysis

24     department.  At the time of the events in Srebrenica, he was seconded to

25     the Drina Corps as a communications -- or liaison officer with SFOR or

Page 13041

 1     UNPROFOR or whatever it was at the time.  It was probably pursuant to a

 2     request of the Drina Corps and then his own commander approved it.

 3        Q.   In military parlance, what does it mean to be seconded?

 4        A.   It means that on arrival to the unit, he's fully subordinated to

 5     the unit commander and receives tasks from him, for a specific period.

 6        Q.   Do you know when Lieutenant-Colonel Jankovic, because that was

 7     his rank at the time, was seconded to the Drina Corps?

 8        A.   I didn't see the document itself, and it wasn't important to me.

 9     When I arrived there, they told me he had been seconded.

10        Q.   Who specifically issued tasks to him as the UNPROFOR liaison

11     officer?

12        A.   The commander or the Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps.  I don't

13     know how they regulated it.

14        Q.   Can we look together at 65 ter document 04102?  I want to ask you

15     the following.  The date of the document is 13 July 1995; in the lower

16     right-hand side corner it is stated that it was sent on 14 July 1995,

17     half an hour after midnight.  In the signature block there is the name of

18     Colonel Radoslav Jankovic.

19             Let me ask you this:  It was addressed to the Main Staff of the

20     VRS, the OBP sector, and to the command of the Drina Corps, the

21     intelligence department or OB affairs department.  Can you see that?

22        A.   Yes.  I see it, command of the Drina Corps, intelligence

23     department.

24        Q.   Let me ask you this:  Looking at the document, can you arrive at

25     a conclusion in terms of whether he acted within his mandate as someone

Page 13042

 1     who had been seconded to the Drina Corps?  That is to say, to inform both

 2     the intelligence department of the Main Staff and of the Drina Corps?

 3        A.   I see no problem there.  As a responsible officer, he simply

 4     included the formation he had come from in this report so that they would

 5     be privy to what was going on.

 6        Q.   When we see -- if we see in the document that it is addressed to

 7     the intelligence department -- sector of the Main Staff, who would then

 8     be in receipt of this document?

 9        A.   General Tolimir.

10        Q.   In one of the paragraphs, I think it is the last one, if we

11     disregard the post scriptum, he says:

12             "The MUP is stealing on a massive scale from UNPROFOR.  Today

13     they openly stole their Puch.  They wanted to participate in a search of

14     their base after the departure of refugees, which is something

15     I categorically refused."

16             I'm interested in the following.  Having regard to

17     Colonel Jankovic's position, did he have any command authority?

18        A.   No, not at the base.  These are issues of morale and ethics.  He

19     simply prevented someone from appropriating another's property, and he

20     forwarded that information to the sector and the Drina Corps command.

21     Probably so that from that level, the MUP could be informed in order to

22     put a stop to it.  I would have done the same if I had been in his shoes.

23        Q.   In the post scriptum paragraph we see the following:

24             "I think that if we want to take over the enclaves of Zepa and

25     Gorazde in the same way, it will be necessary to present the operation in

Page 13043

 1     Srebrenica in the media so as to show that we had rendered adequate

 2     treatment to the civilians and even to the soldiers who surrendered their

 3     weapons."

 4             Let me ask you this:  In practical terms, when using such

 5     language, who was he proposing to this need to present the operation in

 6     Srebrenica in the media?  Was it the Main Staff or the Drina Corps

 7     command?

 8        A.   Both.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye?

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.  I think that my colleague

11     is asking for speculation because the document speaks for itself, it

12     doesn't mention the word "proposal," and so I don't know where the basis

13     for that question is.  And I'm not sure what the basis of the Colonel's

14     information is as to the response that he gave.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the question has been answered.  If it -- in

16     the entirety of the evidence we'll see whether that answer assists us.

17             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   Witness, were you ever in a position to see this document in the

20     course of 1995?

21        A.   In the course of 1995, at the time that the operation was being

22     implemented, no.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Salapura, may I put this question to you?

24     You were asked who would have received this letter and you said

25     General Tolimir.  Is it right that you were the chief of the intelligence

Page 13044

 1     department in the Main Staff?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I see it is directed to the general's -- the

 4     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska intelligence sector.  Why

 5     didn't you receive it?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  The intelligence and

 7     security sector.  Tolimir was the chief of sector and I was the chief of

 8     the intelligence administration.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I understand that, but I don't see the term

10     "intelligence and security sector."  I only see the term "intelligence

11     sector."  I know that there is a difference between sector and

12     administration, but can you explain it?  Why is it addressed to the

13     intelligence sector?

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, if

15     I may intervene, this is precisely what I wanted to clear up.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, no, no, sorry, I have put a question to the

17     witness and I would like to hear the answer.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, what reads here is "sector for

20     OBP," and this stands for "intelligence and security affairs."  There was

21     no such thing as an intelligence sector.  There was only the intelligence

22     and security sector, and that was its acronym, OBP.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This is a translation problem,

24     Your Honour.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Salapura.

Page 13045

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, a translation issue having arisen, I don't know

 2     who prepared the translation, whether this is a CLSS translation or not,

 3     but it should then perhaps be reviewed.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President, we will see to that.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  That's

 7     precisely what I wanted to say.  I thought it was a translation issue.

 8     At any rate, thank you for your intervention and assistance.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  If we look at the translation anyhow, I see that

10     this second addressee or the addressee, that's unclear to me, it says:

11     "To command of the Drina Corps, intelligence department."

12             Now, for the previous one, in bold, I do not see where the bold

13     comes from, as a matter of fact, but there it does not say "to."  At the

14     same time it seems that everyone understands the document as having been

15     sent to the general -- the Main Staff of the VRS, and to the command of

16     the Drina Corps.  The translation is perhaps a bit confusing in that

17     respect as well, but let's proceed having identified now two possible

18     translation issues.  Please proceed.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20        Q.   Colonel, on the night between the 12th and the 13th, you were in

21     Bijeljina, right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   To the best of your recollection, when did you set off for

24     Han Pijesak on the following day?

25        A.   In the morning, after breakfast.  When exactly, was it 7.00,

Page 13046

 1     8.00, I don't know.

 2        Q.   Did two of your associates from the intelligence administration

 3     set off with you?

 4        A.   Including the driver, yes -- no.  They were from the

 5     410th Intelligence Sector.  They were programmers in electronics.  They

 6     were supposed to install a new programme in the administration in order

 7     for us to have proper communications with the centre.

 8        Q.   Where was your first stop on your way to Han Pijesak?

 9        A.   In Konjevic Polje, at the intersection forking off to Bratunac.

10        Q.   Can you describe for us what you were able to see at that point

11     in time, on the 13th of July, in the early morning, at Konjevic Polje?

12        A.   Previously, I confused Konjevic Polje and Bratunac -- or, rather,

13     and that pitch.  The pitch is not in Konjevic Polje.  The pitch is in

14     Kasaba, and I was confusing the two.  I only saw vehicles and people

15     moving along over here, nothing special.  But I went on my way to Kasaba

16     to the command post of the MP Battalion to ask about the whereabouts of

17     Mladic.  I asked where I was -- would be able to find him.

18        Q.   Who did you meet with in Kasaba?

19        A.   With the battalion commander in his office.  There was the

20     battalion commander there and the officer operating the switchboard in

21     the communications centre.

22        Q.   Did you head to the pitch in Kasaba at any point?

23        A.   No.  I only exchanged information there, or rather, received

24     information from the commander, and left the place for Bratunac.  We were

25     outside within the compound of the battalion command.  It was a school,

Page 13047

 1     in fact.  And he saw me off.

 2        Q.   Can you recall who you got in contact with when you were trying

 3     to find out the whereabouts of General Mladic?

 4        A.   The battalion commander.  That's Malinic.

 5        Q.   Before he gave you the answer, did he have any sort of telephone

 6     communication with anyone to check General Mladic's whereabouts?

 7        A.   I don't recall that he did.  The soldier operating the

 8     switchboard was connecting lines, but there was nothing that was intended

 9     for him.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like us to

12     look at a document but perhaps we should best do it after the break.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We take the break first.  The witness may follow the

14     usher.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

20             Mr. Mladic, no loud speaking in the courtroom.  If you want to

21     consult counsel, do it at whisper volume.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Colonel, over the break I was asked to ask you about the July of

Page 13048

 1     1995.  When you were enumerating the individuals working for the

 2     intelligence organ in your administration, does the name of

 3     Lieutenant-Colonel Petrovic ring any bells?  Was he with you in

 4     July 1995?

 5        A.   Petrovic?  No.

 6        Q.   My next question is this:  As you were on your way from the

 7     school building at Kasaba where you met up with Malinic, did you have to

 8     go past the pitch as you were on your way to Bratunac?

 9        A.   Yes, I had to.  The pitch is on the left side of the road, as you

10     head towards Bratunac.

11        Q.   I'm sorry, I have to pause for a moment for interpretation to

12     catch up.

13             In your best estimate, how many prisoners did you believe were

14     present in the pitch?

15        A.   I think I said that in my previous testimonies, that it was very

16     difficult for me to tell.  I didn't focus on that.  I didn't pay

17     attention to that to be able to give a near estimate.  There were many,

18     several hundred people.  How many exactly, I don't know.  As I arrived

19     there, I saw that some were moving about the pitch, others were lying

20     down.  Soldiers were on the edge with their weapons slung over their

21     right shoulder, and it was a rather relaxed atmosphere.  But I can't give

22     you any figures.  There were many.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at P1256?  It's a

25     document under seal.

Page 13049

 1        Q.   And I will have questions for you.  In fact, this is the reason

 2     why I asked you about the number of prisoners.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, the previous document, do you want

 4     to tender that?

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  I read out the

 6     penultimate and last paragraphs so I don't think there is any need.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  There are other parts in that document as well,

 8     Mr. Stojanovic, which may be relevant, such as the author of the document

 9     saying that he intends to remove a doctor who wants to keep a close eye

10     on whether the sick people are treated well, and that he says, Well, I'll

11     send him away under the pretext that we don't need him any further, which

12     may be relevant as well.  Therefore, apart from the translation issue

13     still pending, if you say, I'm not interested in it, the Chamber might

14     be.  I leave it in your hands.  If you say, I'll not tender it, then --

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.  I will

16     tell you if we will tender the document or not before the end of my

17     examination.  Not at this point because we focused on what was

18     interesting for the Defence.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you may understand that the Chamber is very

20     interested in what is important for the Defence but not only in what is

21     important for the Defence.

22             Mr. Vanderpuye?

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  First I just want to

24     inform you that we have made a request for the revised translation.  And

25     secondly, I wanted to inform the Chamber that to the extent that

Page 13050

 1     Mr. Stojanovic may not want to tender the document, I certainly do.  So

 2     we can resolve it at the end of the witness's evidence, I suppose.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic?

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, the document

 5     is on the Prosecution exhibit list.  In that case, once a revised

 6     translation is received, I will tender the document into evidence.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we reserve a number for that.  Madam Registrar?

 8     Pending a better translation, the document, and I'm seeking the

 9     assistance of my colleagues, 65 ter 418 -- 4102 receives number?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall have number P01590, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.  Yes, it's now

12     tendered by Mr. Stojanovic after some hesitation, so therefore it should

13     receive a D number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Indeed, Your Honours.  The document 4102 will

15     receive number D306.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  D306 is marked for identification, and then I take

17     it that the P number which was assigned for only one second is then

18     hereby -- is not valid anymore.  Please proceed.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20        Q.   Colonel, sir, can you see the document?

21        A.   I can.

22        Q.   It is an intercept which reads:

23             "Major Malinic, the commander of the 65th Protective Motorised

24     Regiment Armoured Battalion and Colonel Pero Salapura, the VRS security

25     service, are at the football field in the Kasaba village where they are

Page 13051

 1     receiving the arrested Muslims."

 2             I have a few things to ask you about concerning the document.

 3     First of all, this acronym, commander of OKB in the original, what does

 4     it stand for?

 5        A.   Well, I can clearly see that it is from the Croatian electronic

 6     surveillance service.  This is a compilation of different sources, and

 7     the summary is quite bad to serve as a report.  This is the 13th of July,

 8     1995, at 10.15.  When I -- this is when I returned from Bijeljina, and

 9     I went directly to the armoured battalion command.  I didn't go to any

10     kind of pitch or field, talking to anyone.  I asked the commander where

11     General Mladic was and how I could get ahold of him.

12             There was some things that are incorrect here.  He's not the

13     commander of the armoured battalion but he commanded the MP Battalion.

14     I wasn't from the security service but from the intelligence service.

15     And I was never at that football pitch.  I was on a pitch that is much

16     smaller that was in front of the school, and it was en route to the

17     school.  Perhaps it was at around 2.00 or so, and I was asked by one of

18     Malinic's officers to drop by the battalion command since I was with my

19     vehicle, and they said they needed water for their staff.  So this is an

20     inexpertly compiled text.

21        Q.   Since I will not have another opportunity to ask about it,

22     someone else who is familiar with this kind of job, and that is why

23     I would want to ask you this.  Radio reconnaissance centres, were they in

24     the VRS inside brigades, the corps, or were they directly under the

25     Main Staff?

Page 13052

 1        A.   The corps did have their radio reconnaissance units, the size of

 2     platoon.  The Main Staff should have had a radio reconnaissance company

 3     but we did not have the necessary equipment and we never developed that

 4     kind of unit.  The equipment was used mainly to monitor radio and radio

 5     relay communication.

 6        Q.   The equipment of the former 5th and 2nd Military District of the

 7     JNA, where did it all go to?

 8        A.   Zagreb.  It was left behind because that's where the biggest

 9     radio reconnaissance battalion was with the most up-to-date equipment and

10     most of the equipment was left either at the Pleso airport or in the

11     barracks.  Only some equipment was pulled out of Zagreb, which was then

12     later on used along certain axes.  There were two such devices, I

13     believe, one of which was in Republika Srpska.

14        Q.   The use of equipment of the former JNA, what happened with it

15     once the JNA withdrew from Bosnia-Herzegovina?

16        A.   In this area, those units were not quite so developed, and most

17     of the equipment was in the war reserves warehouses in Visoko and

18     Kiseljak and that's where it stayed.  It was mainly equipment which was

19     rather obsolete or of lower technological quality, and we mostly relied

20     on older equipment and whatever was left in our possession.

21        Q.   As for the time in the document before you, does it tally, to the

22     best of your recollection, with the time when you were in Kasaba?

23        A.   We came from Bijeljina directly.  Perhaps the time was between 10

24     and 11.00 in the morning.  So the time designated on the document may be

25     correct.

Page 13053

 1        Q.   How long did it take you to reach Bratunac from Kasaba?

 2        A.   I can't say.  It didn't take long but we were stopped along the

 3     way.  We stayed for some 20 minutes because we were stopped by a soldier

 4     who stopped the traffic.  On the road, around the bend, there was a group

 5     of captured ABiH soldiers, the size of a platoon, so between 20 and 25.

 6     I waited in the vehicle and I asked our soldier why the traffic was

 7     stopped and whether we could go through.  He said that we should wait a

 8     little longer and that we couldn't go through because one of the captured

 9     fighters tried to activate a hand grenade in order to throw it at the

10     guards who guarded them, so they were waiting for their superior or

11     someone else to clear it up.

12        Q.   Can you tell the Chamber where could it have all been taking

13     place, as far as you are familiar with the area?

14        A.   In Kravica, as one enters it, because all of the houses had been

15     burned down, so Kravica.

16        Q.   En route to Bratunac, did you see any larger groups of prisoners

17     anywhere?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Did you see or did you hear some firing on your way to Bratunac?

20        A.   Not on our way to Bratunac.

21        Q.   As you moved along that road, was there other traffic?

22        A.   Only a few vehicles that we encountered along the way.

23        Q.   Who did you meet with in Bratunac when you arrived in the

24     Bratunac Brigade?

25        A.   I dropped by the brigade command and the duty officer was there.

Page 13054

 1     I asked him about General Mladic, and where I could find him.  He told me

 2     he was somewhere in the area of Srebrenica.  Since both of the officers

 3     who were with me and my driver had not had any breakfast, I asked him to

 4     find some food for them.  I sat in the vehicle and went to Srebrenica.

 5     I planned to come back quickly because I only had some information to

 6     share.

 7        Q.   Did you have a stopover in Potocari?

 8        A.   I had never been in that area before.  Once I arrived there,

 9     I thought it was Srebrenica, but as a matter of fact it was Potocari.

10     That is where I found General Mladic.

11        Q.   I'm afraid I didn't understand you quite well.  Did you meet

12     General Mladic in Srebrenica?

13        A.   No, in Potocari.  But at first, I thought it was Srebrenica

14     because I had never been there.

15        Q.   Can you recall where you met General Mladic in Potocari?

16        A.   Yes, I can.  We talked in front of a building, was it a school

17     building or something, but a sizeable building.  General Mladic was

18     giving an interview to a TV crew.  There were several cameramen.  I stood

19     on the side, waiting for it to finish, and I think, as the camera panned

20     out, I was also taped there together with some of the general's escort,

21     his security.

22        Q.   How long did you stay there talking to General Mladic?

23        A.   Very briefly, perhaps up to ten minutes.  Yes, when I saw it

24     later, General Mladic took me along.  There was a woman there in a house

25     nearby.  He went there and he talked to her.  That's what I could see

Page 13055

 1     later on TV.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we next

 3     together look at a short excerpt from the footage which is P1147.  This

 4     part of the Srebrenica trial video, V 9267.  Can we start at 1.37 and end

 5     at 2.38.

 6        Q.   Colonel, I wanted you to look at the footage and then I'll have

 7     some questions of you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I think we've seen this before,

 9     isn't it?

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think we did in this

11     part.  This is what the reason is, and why I would like you to have a

12     look at it.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then if I am mistaken -- Mr. Vanderpuye?

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I tend to agree with my -- with Mr. Stojanovic.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We'll have a look at it.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Colonel, did you have occasion to see this excerpt before today

19     in this courtroom?

20        A.   Yes, I think it was broadcast on TV, if this is it, and if you

21     continue, I guess you'll see me at the doorstep -- on the doorstep.

22        Q.   Do you recognise the person behind the woman in this still?

23        A.   I can't make out the face.  I don't know.  Perhaps the one on the

24     left is mine.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,

Page 13056

 1     I'd like to show the last ten seconds, if possible.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Ms. Janet, please focus on the

 4     man in the picture.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's me at the back.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   My question is this:  Do you now recognise the person behind the

 8     woman in this still?

 9        A.   That is me.

10        Q.   If you know, tell us who is the person with the cap, to your

11     right from our angle?

12        A.   It is unclear but it's probably one of -- one of Mr. Mladic's

13     security detail.  And I don't see he's wearing a cap.  Ah-ha.

14        Q.   The person with the cap, who is to the far right in the still?

15        A.   It is completely fuzzy, and I can't remember who it is.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Does the name Zvonko Bajagic ring a bell?

17        A.   Yes, it does.

18        Q.   Do you remember whether he was in the same place and at the same

19     time as you that day?

20        A.   I really don't remember whether he was there.  I don't remember

21     if Zvonko was there.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Do you still believe that this footage was made in

23     Potocari and not in Srebrenica?

24        A.   I think it is from Potocari.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 13057

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

 2     this excerpt.  It is already actually P1147.  Apologise.  Thank you.  If

 3     it completely corresponds in terms of the time counter that we relied on.

 4     Very well.

 5        Q.   In that ten-minute conversation that you had with General Mladic,

 6     tell us, what was the topic of your discussion and what did

 7     General Mladic tell you?

 8        A.   That was the purpose of my coming there.  That was why I came

 9     from Banja Luka and went to Belgrade.  It was the information on the

10     impending attack by the Croatian army on the Republic of the Serbian

11     Krajina.  It was the first specific information that we had indicating

12     that these combat activities would most probably spill over to Republika

13     Srpska.

14        Q.   In your view, was it necessary, in view of the significance of

15     the information, to convey it to General Mladic in view of the ongoing

16     activities surrounding Srebrenica?

17        A.   Well, I believed that it was.  I got there, although I have -- I

18     had some medical problems myself, I thought it was important, and I was

19     there to clear up any of his uncertainties or anything that had to be

20     explained or clarified.  There was very little time left before the start

21     of the aggression of the Republic of Serbia against the RSK, and then

22     possibly further activities.

23        Q.   In view of the information that you conveyed to -- or rather,

24     when you conveyed the information to General Mladic, was there anything

25     that came up concerning Srebrenica?

Page 13058

 1        A.   No.  We didn't discuss Srebrenica at all.  I saw that it was

 2     being finished.  There was quite a lot of old people, women and children.

 3     There was this -- what was it, a factory down in Potocari where I saw

 4     them.  Nothing else.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I inquire with one of the answers?  You said

 6     there was very little time left before the start of the aggression of the

 7     Republic of Serbia against the RSK.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Croatia.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Croatia, Croatia.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That is what I thought might be the issue.

11             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  Thank

13     you for your assistance.

14        Q.   At this point, did you receive any sort of instruction from

15     General Mladic?

16        A.   No.  General Mladic took notice of it and I did not receive any

17     instructions.  I knew that other things needed to be done in that

18     respect, but I wasn't the one who would be taking any measures.

19        Q.   This piece of intelligence that you conveyed to General Mladic,

20     did it prove to be true eventually?

21        A.   Yes.  The term that I had was the 2nd of August, St. Ilija's day,

22     the attack began two days later, so that was the only thing that proved

23     incorrect.

24        Q.   The conversation you had with General Mladic, did it precede or

25     follow the video footage where we saw you, General Mladic and his

Page 13059

 1     personal detail?

 2        A.   I had a dilemma about that but I think that it was after this

 3     particular footage.  There was first the discussion with journalists and

 4     then I spoke to him, and if I recall correctly, then he tapped me on the

 5     shoulder and went on to speak to this woman.

 6        Q.   Did you at any point in time inform General Mladic about what you

 7     had seen at Kasaba and on the road from Konjevic Polje to Kravica and

 8     Bratunac?

 9        A.   I don't recall that I did.  There were quite a few prisoners

10     there already, and probably General Mladic was receiving information from

11     all the units there and was better informed than I was.  I was just a

12     person who was passing through.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, if I may just get clarity on the

14     witness's answer.

15             Sir, you said:

16             "I had a dilemma about that but I think that it was after this

17     particular footage."

18             Then you say:

19             "There was first the discussion with journalists and then I spoke

20     to him, and if I recall correctly, he tapped me on the shoulder and went

21     to speak with this woman."

22             Now that would mean then that your discussion was before the

23     footage, not after the footage.  You are giving -- if he tapped you and

24     then went and spoke to the woman, the footage can only be taken at a time

25     when he speaks with the woman.

Page 13060

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So you spoke to him before the footage?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I see whether I can resolve the matter.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's try to cut matters short.  In your previous

 6     testimony, you were talking about the footage outside where you were at a

 7     distance of 30 metres from General Mladic.  Your previous testimony was

 8     that you then had a conversation with him after that footage and that

 9     this visit followed your conversation.  Is that a correct understanding

10     of your testimony given in another case and in this case?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may explain it all now,

12     please.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please, first --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because there is some sort of

15     misunderstanding.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So when I asked you whether this is a correct

17     understanding, your answer is:  No, it's not a correct understanding.  My

18     next question would be in what respect is it wrong?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps you're not wrong.  Perhaps

20     I am.  When I arrived, General Mladic was engaged in an interview with

21     journalists and I was some 10 or 15 metres behind him waiting for him to

22     finish the interview.  When it finished, I approached him and we greeted

23     each other and I told him that I had certain things to inform him about.

24     And then in some first statements of mine, I seem to have left out this

25     moment with the woman because I focused on what it was that I was telling

Page 13061

 1     him, and when I saw this footage now, I recall that he tapped me on the

 2     shoulder, he took me up to that house, he spoke to that woman, it didn't

 3     last long, and then as we got out of the house, I took him to one side

 4     and that was when I shared information with him.  That's how it was.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So we have footage 1, outdoors; footage 2,

 6     indoors, with the lady; and after that a conversation.  That is --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's move on.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Salapura, is it possible that you have a

10     problem with your chair?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, it's all right.  It's a bit

12     steep but it's fine.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, I think with the back of your chair --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't dare lean back

15     because I might go all the way down, but it's all right.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No, then it's not all right.  It should be fixed so

17     that you can't fall over at the back.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I won't.  I'm leaning against the

19     desk.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The usher will assist you but he has to find one of

21     the knobs below the seat rather than -- have you fixed -- it's the left

22     handle if it's the same chair, just left hand, there is a knob which can

23     fix.  Is that better?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now it's fine.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  But I think Judge Moloto still has a problem with

Page 13062

 1     the sequence.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question put to you, sir, was, and this is at

 3     page 32, lines 20 to 22:

 4             "The conversation you had with General Mladic, did it precede or

 5     follow the video footage where we saw you, General Mladic and his

 6     personal detail?"

 7             Now, your explanation you've just given to Judge Orie now is that

 8     you had a discussion with General Mladic, you told him that you wanted to

 9     talk to him, he patted you on the shoulder, you went into the house, then

10     the footage was taken, and then after you talked to him about the

11     Krajina.  Now, the conversation that I thought Mr. Stojanovic had in mind

12     when he asks you about the conversation is the conversation about the

13     Krajina.  Do I understand that correctly?

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So it took up -- is it now your explanation that

16     it took place after the footage?  Not before?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I -- it seems to me that that's the

18     case.  If it's so important.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank -- it's not very important.  Thank you so

20     much.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a long time ago.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  Following your conversation with

25     General Mladic, which of the two of you left the place where it was all

Page 13063

 1     happening first?  You or General Mladic?

 2        A.   I left right away.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further gesture to the public audience will

 4     result in measures taken by this Chamber.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC:  [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,

 7     a moment, please.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.  Mr. Mladic wants to consult you.

 9     Inaudible.

10                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Colonel, did you stop at the Bratunac Brigade on your way back?

13        A.   Yes, I did drop by the Bratunac Brigade.  I collected the two

14     IT officers and my driver because I was driving myself from Bratunac to

15     Potocari.  I left them behind to have their meal and then we all went

16     back.

17        Q.   In your best estimate, at what time did you meet again in the

18     Bratunac Brigade HQ?

19        A.   At around noon, 1.00 p.m.  I'm not sure.  I can't say.  It's been

20     a long time.

21        Q.   Did you have occasion to come across anyone from the corps

22     command of the Bratunac Brigade at the brigade's headquarters?

23        A.   I don't recall that I did.  I think it was the duty officer who

24     was there only.

25        Q.   Did you know the assistant commander for intelligence and

Page 13064

 1     security in the Bratunac Brigade, Momir Nikolic?

 2        A.   I didn't personally know him.  I had heard of him.

 3        Q.   Did you see him at any point during the day?  Did you come across

 4     him?  Did you exchange any words with him?

 5        A.   I don't recall that I did.

 6        Q.   Colonel, did you have any sort of communications device in your

 7     vehicle?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   On your way back from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje and Kasaba, did

10     you spot any larger groups of prisoners at any point along that road?

11        A.   The group that was there previously, on my incoming journey, was

12     no longer there on my way back.  I didn't observe anything else.

13        Q.   Did you stop by the pitch at Kasaba?

14        A.   No.  On my return, a non-commissioned officer pulled the vehicle

15     over and asked that I drop by the battalion HQ and the commander Malinic

16     because he wanted me to convey information that they had no water.  They

17     had no water to spare for the prisoners or even the soldiers there who

18     were guarding them, and he wanted them to be provided with water.

19        Q.   And did you convey this -- so did you drop by and see Malinic?

20        A.   Yes, I did.

21        Q.   Did you do anything to find ways and means to supply the

22     prisoners and soldiers with water?

23        A.   Well, I conveyed that information to Malinic, and I suppose that

24     he, as a commander, saw to it.

25        Q.   Outside the HQ of the -- Malinic's unit, did you see any UNPROFOR

Page 13065

 1     vehicles?

 2        A.   Not at the time, I don't think so.  There were just a couple of

 3     his soldiers outside.  I don't recall seeing an UNPROFOR vehicle.  I saw

 4     UNPROFOR vehicles in Potocari at that time.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to ask for one clarification.

 6     Mr. Salapura, you told us that Mr. Malinic wanted you to convey

 7     information that they had no water for the prisoners and for his

 8     soldiers.  Then some lines down, you said, this is line 11 on page 38,

 9     "I conveyed that information to Malinic."  Which information did you

10     convey to Malinic?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, either there was a

12     difficulty in interpretation or misunderstanding.  On my way back from

13     Bratunac, there was a non-commissioned officer of his, right?  Who was

14     there standing by the venue where the prisoners were, by the pitch.  He

15     waved to me to stop over and asked me to drop by the battalion's HQ and

16     to see the battalion commander and tell them that we had no water -- they

17     had no water.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ah, now I understand.  It was the

19     non-commissioned officer who wanted you to convey the message that they

20     don't have water to Mr. Malinic?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Malinic was to make sure that they

24     were supplied with water.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 13066

 1        Q.   Thank you, Colonel, for this clarification.

 2             My next question is this:  Did you, at any time during your stay

 3     in Kasaba, have occasion to meet Colonel Beara?

 4        A.   No.  I didn't see Beara as of the moment I went on sick leave,

 5     and later on, even during the time when I was there, he wasn't at the

 6     command post.  I didn't see him anymore.  I only saw him sometime in

 7     August, I think.

 8        Q.   To the best of your recollection, after having stopped in Kasaba,

 9     did you -- did you spend any time anywhere before your arrival in

10     Han Pijesak?

11        A.   Yes.  We were stopped by the police on the road from Kasaba --

12     well, perhaps one or two kilometres away, at a bend.  They told us that

13     there was no further passage possible towards Vlasenica because they had

14     a problem with members of the 28th Division because there was an exchange

15     of fire.  One could hear bursts of fire shortly afterwards.  Then things

16     became quiet.  I stayed there for some time.  Later, they told me --

17     well, I asked to be let through to go to the command post because things

18     were quiet, but they said they couldn't let me pass just yet, and I told

19     them I would go at my own responsibility because my plan was to go to

20     Banja Luka the same day.  They approved my passage.  I armoured the

21     vehicle and went.

22        Q.   Did you stay in Vlasenica in the Drina Corps command?

23        A.   I didn't go there, to the Drina Corps command.

24        Q.   To the best of your recollection, when did you arrive in the

25     Main Staff facility at Crna Rijeka?

Page 13067

 1        A.   Sometime in the afternoon.  I can't be more specific than that.

 2     I can't recall the hour.  I can't be precise.

 3        Q.   As far as you remember, who did you find, then, at the

 4     Main Staff?

 5        A.   I came to the hut where I worked, going to the office where my

 6     analysts were.  I brought the other two along and they unloaded their

 7     stuff.  Only Slobodan --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness repeat

 9     the last name.

10        A.   -- was there and Bora, the warrant officer who was the desk

11     officer.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you give us the family name of Slobodan again?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mamlic.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Tell the Chamber whether you saw any of the Main Staff officers

16     at the VRS Main Staff command.

17        A.   I don't know whether I encountered anyone passing through.  It

18     was my intention to go back immediately.  I had some back problems, so

19     I took some time to rest, but it didn't work out, so I dropped the idea

20     of returning and postponed it until the next morning.

21        Q.   When did you, in fact, leave the Main Staff facility at

22     Crna Rijeka?  When did you leave the area?

23        A.   I left the facility on the 18th because the next day, as of early

24     morning, the road was closed for all traffic, from Vlasenica further

25     afield, until further notice, which was the 18th, as it turned out.

Page 13068

 1     Starting with the 14th in the morning.  Or maybe even the 13th in the

 2     evening.  Yes.  At the briefing, at Miletic's, Mamlic told him the road

 3     was blocked for traffic from Vlasenica onwards and that it should be

 4     conveyed to all of the officers at the Main Staff that they could not use

 5     the road from Vlasenica to Zvornik until further notice.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  During that time, as of the 13th, late in the

 7     afternoon, until the 18th when you left Crna Rijeka, did you at any point

 8     find yourself in a situation to meet with General Mladic and talk to him?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Did you know that General Mladic, at the time, was away on

11     business for a while to Serbia?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   The facility where you were physically present in those few days,

14     is it physically separated from the building where General Mladic would

15     be if he were to be at Crna Rijeka?

16        A.   Yes.  The buildings are separate.  When he dropped by, he usually

17     went to the building where the Chief of Staff and the operations head

18     was.  It was in that hut.

19        Q.   Did you, at some point in time, assist Tribunal investigators to

20     identify the buildings and the offices in terms of who was sitting where

21     in 1995?

22        A.   Yes, I do recall that.

23        Q.   In the course of those four days or less than four days, while

24     you were at the Main Staff, did you have occasion to meet Beara at any

25     time?

Page 13069

 1        A.   No.  I told you already I didn't see Beara until August.

 2        Q.   During the four days, did you happen to run into General Tolimir?

 3        A.   No.  I didn't see General Tolimir and I didn't even speak to him

 4     on the phone because he was in the area of Rogatica and Zepa.  He was in

 5     charge of that part.

 6        Q.   I'm asking you this because I would like us to go through a

 7     number of intercepts together.  Before that, could you tell the Chamber

 8     when did you meet General Mladic?  How far back does your acquaintance

 9     with him go?

10        A.   When he took over his duty as the commander of the Main Staff.

11        Q.   While you were still with the JNA, until the war broke out in

12     Croatia, did you have an opportunity to meet General Mladic?

13        A.   No, never.

14        Q.   When the war broke out in 1992 in Bosnia, you were with the

15     2nd Military District Command in Sarajevo?

16        A.   Yes.  It was the 5th in Zagreb and then it was renamed to become

17     the 2nd and stationed in Sarajevo.

18        Q.   How did you leave Sarajevo?

19        A.   As part of the column in Dobrovoljacka Street.  We were attacked.

20     There were many casualties before we managed to pull out or get through.

21        Q.   Were you also wounded?  Were you hospitalised?

22        A.   I wasn't wounded, although I still have back problems.  I've had

23     those problems for some time.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I'm looking at the clock, that's

25     one.  I think it's time for a break.

Page 13070

 1             Could the witness follow the usher.  We will take a break of

 2     20 minutes.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We will take a break and resume at ten minutes past

 5     mid-day.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 11.51 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 12.16 p.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 9             Could I inquire with you, Mr. Stojanovic, whether you're on track

10     in terms of time?

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I think I

12     will definitely conclude my cross-examination today, as was planned, or

13     perhaps earlier.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Colonel, we stopped at the moment when we were discussing your

18     previous contact with General Mladic.  Please tell the Chamber whether

19     you had an opportunity to follow Mr. Mladic during negotiation with the

20     enemy side at any point during the war?

21        A.   I worked a lot with UNPROFOR representatives and representatives

22     of the international community, so my answer is yes, and it was through

23     mediation of one or another international representative.  That was in

24     Sarajevo at the airport.  But General Tolimir was more in charge of that,

25     or he followed him around more.  Outside the few times, I don't remember

Page 13071

 1     having encountered him.

 2        Q.   In the performance of your duties, did you have contact during

 3     the war with the Croatian side, as a participant to the war events?

 4        A.   Yes.  Both the Croatian and the Muslim side.

 5        Q.   Were you in a situation to convey any requests by Croats for

 6     assistance to be provided to civilians?

 7        A.   Yes.  I did convey such requests to General Mladic, coming from

 8     both the Croatian and Muslim side.

 9        Q.   Can you cite an example when you were asked by an enemy side to

10     provide assistance on the part of the RS?

11        A.   Yes, because I was in charge of such talks, as well as my

12     counterparts on the other side.  Zepce, the Croatian side, we accepted to

13     provide full support and supply because they had been completely

14     encircled.  We even received their wounded and sick to be treated in

15     Banja Luka, in the hospital.  I think that was in 1994 or 1995.

16             There is more, sorry.  Let's talk about the Muslim side.  For

17     example, East and West Mostar was divided and the population on the east

18     side was in a difficult situation.  I was engaged in talks surrounding

19     the issue, and I received approval from General Mladic to provide

20     supplies to the eastern part, to the Muslim population, through our

21     territory.  We also did not make use of a very unfavourable tactical

22     situation that the Muslims found themselves in due to their conflict with

23     the Croatian side and we did not get engaged in the conflict because if

24     we had, we would probably have gained some territory but there would have

25     been numerous casualties among both civilians and the military.  The same

Page 13072

 1     would have probably happened with Zepce.

 2        Q.   In such contacts you had concerning these requests by the

 3     Croatian and Muslim military and civilian authorities, which you conveyed

 4     to General Mladic, what was his position in that regard?

 5        A.   A positive one, and ultimately it was done according to his

 6     decision.  There was another example, when the Muslim-Croat conflict

 7     erupted in late 1993, the Croats in the Lasva Valley and around Vlasic

 8     were in a very difficult situation.  They had nowhere to go.  And in the

 9     evening, I remember, I personally approached General Mladic at his

10     resting place and explained the situation.  I suggested that we should

11     receive both the civilians and HVO soldiers in Herceg-Bosna to let them

12     pass through our territory and then to let them go where they wanted to

13     go.  We even received their soldiers with their weapons.  In my view, it

14     was one of the most humane actions in the whole war in

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16        Q.   Were you in a situation to accompany Mr. Mladic during the war,

17     when he went to Russia?

18        A.   Yes, on one occasion.

19        Q.   What kind of international contact was there between the Russian

20     authorities and the military authorities of the RS and General Mladic?

21        A.   There were direct contacts, but verbal contacts, without much

22     practical substance, in terms of any significant aid or anything of the

23     sort.  They went up to the level of minister, the Minister of Defence and

24     the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

25        Q.   As the intelligence officer, did you have any contact during the

Page 13073

 1     war with the French government and the French military authorities?

 2        A.   Not with the government, but I did have contact with the French

 3     military envoy, and we were in frequent contact.  It was quite normal.

 4     They always sought contact, not only through the diplomatic corps but

 5     with military envoys, and it concerned a number of countries throughout

 6     the war.

 7        Q.   Do you know whether, in that period, as of June 1995 until

 8     September 1995, were there any French intelligence elements in

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10        A.   I don't know about that.  The French contingent was in Sarajevo

11     as part of UNPROFOR.  They probably did have their security and

12     intelligence personnel as part of the contingent.  All of the countries

13     that were members of UNPROFOR and SFOR did so, and that's quite standard.

14        Q.   As an officer of the intelligence administration of the VRS

15     Main Staff, did you have any counter intelligence or other tasks which

16     had to do with the work of intelligence services of the countries

17     comprising UNPROFOR?

18        A.   My service did not engage in counter-intelligence work.  It was

19     done by the security service.  I don't know.  I did not receive such

20     information from them.

21        Q.   In all such contacts you had with General Mladic concerning the

22     provision of assistance to the Croatian and Muslim population in

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you at any point in time come across a lack of

24     understanding or a position expressed by General Mladic not to assist

25     them?

Page 13074

 1        A.   No.  I think he talked directly to the municipal president in

 2     East Mostar at that time.  It was Safet Orucevic [Realtime transcript

 3     read in error "Irucevic"], I believe, or as far as I recall.  So General

 4     Mladic was in personal contact with him.

 5             It is not Irucevic but Orucevic, in the transcript.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, page 47, line 13 of

 7     the LiveNote.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Colonel, let me go back to the time when you spent

 9     those four days at the Main Staff.  What were your specific duties on the

10     four days between the 14th and the 17th of July 1995?

11        A.   At the time, I visited the doctor on two occasions, and I didn't

12     have any duties.  You can see that best in the transcript from the

13     Tolimir case, when I was a Prosecution witness in that case.  As I left

14     for my sick leave, the agreement was that in the eastern part he should

15     be in charge of intelligence, and during my stay in Banja Luka, while on

16     sick leave, I was to coordinate the work between the intelligence organs

17     of the 1st and 2nd Corps and the 410th Intelligence Centre.  Those four

18     days that I was there, I was waiting for the road to become passable so

19     that I may leave.  I did not take part in planning or decision making.

20     I wasn't charged with any assignments or duties.  So --

21        Q.   Colonel, I asked you this because I want us to look at some

22     intercepts together which we would ask you to clarify.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at P1362?  And we

24     should mind the fact that the document is under seal.  Thank you.

25        Q.   Colonel, I will not read out the heading because the document is

Page 13075

 1     under seal, but if you can see, it says 17 July 1995, and then we look at

 2     the first two registered contacts.  Please pay attention to 1115 hours.

 3     Do you see that?

 4        A.   On the left-hand side?

 5        Q.   Yes, where the B/C/S version is.

 6        A.   10 -- yes, 1115.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,

 8     we'll go through this together.

 9        Q.   Apparently X and Y are speaking together?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   X says -- or, rather, Y says:  "It's me calling you again."

12             X says:  "The line is not very -- I can't hear you very well, you

13     know."

14             Y says:  "I don't know what's wrong."

15             "X:  Speak up.

16             "Y:  Set off this way.

17             "X:  Say it again?

18             "Y:  Has Keserovic set off?

19             "X:  Well, we met him when we were on our way here.

20             "Y:  Well, he hasn't come to me yet.

21             "X:  Well, in that case he might have first gone ahead over there

22     to Momir Nikolic's.

23             "Y:  Uh-huh.  So, you know, I spoke a little earlier with General

24     Miletic."

25             I'll stop here for a moment and ask you this:  Do you know who

Page 13076

 1     Keserovic is?

 2        A.   Of course I do.

 3        Q.   On the 17th of July, do you know what duty he was discharging and

 4     where he was?

 5        A.   I think that he was the desk officer for the military police

 6     within the security administration.

 7        Q.   Did you have an opportunity over those four days to meet

 8     Keserovic?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I'll continue reading the text.

11             Y says:  "He told me that Keserovic is also supposed to come over

12     here to deal with these issues."

13             X says:  "Right.

14             "Y:  But what I told you this morning --

15             X says:  "I told the commander, he ordered Salapura and an order

16     will be written or, rather, a request to the MUP for all of them to

17     return.  Or rather be kept there."

18             "Y:  Well, here there are going, the buses are there, they are

19     assembling, they've got your order."

20             X says:  "Well, I know.  Well, Salapura spoke with Kovacevic and

21     got a verbal approval that a shift would be coming during the day.

22             "Y:  I know.  But you can see the people here are already setting

23     off."

24             Let me stop here for a moment.

25             Does this conversation make you recall any assignments you might

Page 13077

 1     have had on the 17th?

 2        A.   On the 17th?  The commander didn't give me any orders on the

 3     17th, and I didn't have anything to do with any sort of transport or

 4     anything else.  Throughout my time up there I was at the command post, in

 5     the hut and in my office.  On the 16th, I was at the doctor's, and on the

 6     17th I was given sick leave by my doctor again for some 20 days or a

 7     month, and I wasn't getting involved at all.  I don't know who this

 8     Kovacevic is.  I didn't speak to any Kovacevic.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10        A.   And I don't know where this Kovacevic would be, who that person

11     would be, by that last name.

12        Q.   That's why I wanted to look at this, to have this clarified.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look up P1361 in e-court?

14     Again, the document is under seal.  Can we have -- yes, page 1 of the

15     English version, as we have it.  At one point, as I'm reading, I'll ask

16     that we turn to the next page in the B/C/S.

17        Q.   Colonel, I'll quickly go through the transcript.  It's

18     handwritten this time.  As I was reading just now, the text is identical

19     up to the point that I will now read out.

20             X says -- or, rather, Y says:  "However, what I told you this

21     morning --"

22             X responds:  "I told the commander he ordered Salapura and the

23     order will be drafted or, rather, a request to the MUP to bring all of

24     them back.  Or rather to keep them.  Y - and can we now turn to the next

25     page in the B/C/S - "Well, they are leaving, the buses are collecting or

Page 13078

 1     are assembling, they have your order."

 2             Now, look at this handwritten version.  It reads:

 3             "I know, Salapura talked to Kovac and got his -- and got a verbal

 4     approval or consent that the shift will arrive in the course of the day."

 5             Do you see that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Do you know anyone by the last name of Kovac?

 8        A.   Of course I do.  Minister of the Interior.

 9        Q.   Can we agree that in this part, the intercept was substantially

10     changed from Kovacevic to Kovac?

11        A.   Yes.  And I had no contact whatsoever with Kovac.  I didn't know

12     where he was at the time.

13        Q.   Thank you.  On the basis of this text, would you be able to tell

14     us who X or Y are?

15        A.   I don't know.  I don't know what this is about, what buses, what,

16     and no order, it was only Commander Mladic who could have issued me with

17     an order but I didn't receive any on the 17th, 16th, 15th, 14th or the

18     13th.

19        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  And can I ask you this --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, just for my understanding, you said

21     the intercept was changed from Kovacevic and Kovac.  Now, do we know in

22     which order they were created?  We apparently have two versions.  I'm a

23     bit lost about the one version and the other version because I think

24     I remember that I saw some handwriting in the previous one as well.  I

25     don't know whether the parties can -- the witness apparently has got no

Page 13079

 1     idea about what it's all about so it doesn't make that much sense to ask

 2     him.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, absolutely.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear, Mr. Salapura.

 5             I now see that we have a -- the previous one we saw was written,

 6     typewritten, and do I have to understand that there was a handwritten

 7     version and that it then was transformed in a typewritten version, and

 8     that they are more or less separately translated and that's why we have

 9     two versions?

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  In substance, Mr. President, that's about it.

11     There is a witness that's coming that I think can shed some light on the

12     practice and procedures concerning these intercepts.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but at this moment, so when you said, Mr. --

14     let me check that exactly.  One second, please.  Yes.  One second again.

15     Yes.  When you said that the intercept was changed from Kovacevic to

16     Kovac, if I understood you well, but I'll verify that immediately, that

17     the logical order is that it went the other way around.  That is, the

18     handwritten version, which I take it was the first one, because you

19     usually do not produce a handwritten version if there is already a

20     typewritten version, in the handwritten version, it says "Kovac" and in

21     the typewritten version it says "Kovacevic."  So it was not changed from

22     Kovacevic to Kovac but just the other way around.  Yes.  But that's not

23     what you -- well, it's not -- it's perhaps not without relevance,

24     Mr. Stojanovic, but apparently I do understand that we agree that that

25     was a -- perhaps not a confirmed and logically accurate line.

Page 13080

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  That's

 3     precisely right.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This has not got to do with

 5     anything.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   We will see how it unfolds, but I do believe in the chronology of

 8     events the handwritten version came first.

 9             Colonel, my question was:  In view of the difference in the

10     transcripts, you stand by what you said, that you were not engaged in any

11     sort of conversation with either an individual by the last name of

12     Kovacevic or an individual by the last name of Kovac on that day?

13        A.   Yes, I do stand by that, absolutely.  And I can also state the

14     same for the people from the intelligence organ, that none of them were

15     engaged in these issues about transporting people, buses, et cetera,

16     except for the battalion where there is one person dealing with the

17     intelligence and the brigade as well.  And there was only a handful of us

18     and we could not afford ourselves the luxury to deal with these things.

19        Q.   Thank you.  For the sake of the transcript, when I asked you

20     about the name of Kovac, you said yes, of course, you knew him, that it

21     was the Minister of the Interior.  But would it refresh your memory if

22     I were to tell you that at the time he was Deputy Minister of the

23     Interior and that an individual by the name of Zivko Rakic was, to all

24     intents and purposes, the Minister of the Interior?

25        A.   Well, I know that he was a Minister of the Interior but was it at

Page 13081

 1     that time, I didn't have any special cooperation with the Ministry of the

 2     Interior save for a rare contact.  I did have cooperation with the State

 3     Security Service but not with the Ministry of the Interior, only rarely.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you one thing.  Thinking about the

 5     structures and the events, was there a role for Mr. -- for the Ministry

 6     of the Interior to be played in that context as we read that in this

 7     intercept?  Apart from whether you had contacts or not, but was there any

 8     role for the Ministry of the Interior in this context?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here?  I don't see specifically

10     what it was that MUP was doing here, a shift was supposed to come and

11     some people were supposed to be transported somewhere.  I really don't

12     know what the role of the MUP would have been.  As I told you, I wasn't

13     involved in it at all and I don't even know who participated in these

14     operations, which specific units.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I was not talking about the units.  I was talking

16     about the role to be played by the minister or the deputy minister --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Deputy minister.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- but the higher-up authorities in the Ministry of

19     the Interior.  Was there a -- could you imagine of any role in the

20     context of what we see here to be played by them?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what this is about at

22     all.  From what I can see, I don't know what this is about.  I can't

23     grasp the point of it.  Was it a combat activity, transportation of

24     troops, transportation of prisoners, I don't know.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  If it was about combat activity, was there a role to

Page 13082

 1     be played by the Minister of the Interior?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know to what extent and how

 3     the Ministry of the Interior participated in this operation, the units,

 4     or in which capacity, I’m not aware of it.  Was it as they were

 5     resubordinated to the army or separately?  You have to understand that

 6     I did not participate in the operation and I don't know who did.

 7     I happened to be there by accident and I did not interfere with the

 8     processes that were unfolding.  I was there waiting every single day to

 9     be able to return.  I was not privy to this information.  I did not

10     receive it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  If MUP units were engaged there, would their

12     deployment and possible resubordination to the army, would that need the

13     approval of the Minister of the Interior?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so.  I saw the MUP units,

15     as I said in the statement.  They stopped me on the road.  Those MUP

16     units were engaged in an exchange of fire with members of the 28th

17     Division that were trying to pull out towards Tuzla, from two sides, and

18     the road was passing right in between them.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, in your last answer, you said talking about

20     the MUP, "I'm not aware of them participating in any capacity."  And then

21     in the next answer you describe how you saw them there involved in

22     activities.  Any explanation for this -- what could be considered as a

23     discrepancy between your previous answer and the last answer?  You said,

24     "Those MUP units were engaged in an exchange of fire with members of the

25     28th Division ..."  That comes as a surprise if we have learned from you

Page 13083

 1     that you were not aware of them participating in any capacity.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I said, that I didn't know in

 3     what capacity they were there, but as I was explaining my arrival, I told

 4     you there were MUP members there who stopped me on the road from Kasaba

 5     to Han Pijesak.  They stopped me and said there was an exchange.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's not what you said.  That was not what

 7     your testimony is, unless you challenge the accuracy of the translation

 8     and the transcription.  If so, do not hesitate to do it.  We'll verify it

 9     on the basis of the audio and then we will establish whether or not you

10     said:

11             "Those MUP units were engaged in an exchange of fire with members

12     of the 28th Division that they were -- they were trying to pull out

13     towards Tuzla and the road was passing right in between them."

14             If you say, "That's not what I said," then we'll verify it.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  Perhaps not in so many

16     words but I said that I was stopped by the MUP members on the road, that

17     there was an exchange of fire, and that I asked them to let me through on

18     my own responsibility, and that they did.  I didn't explain anything

19     further.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You are evading the point I'm making, that at one

21     moment you say, "I wasn't even aware that they were engaged at all," and

22     in your next answer you tell us and you explain to us what they were

23     doing there at the time.  That could be considered to be contradictory or

24     inconsistent.  I'm asking for an explanation and you have until now not

25     given that explanation.  Therefore, we will proceed.

Page 13084

 1             Mr. Stojanovic.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, can we replay the -- this

 3     part to see what I said, so that I can listen to it.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We cannot replay it but it will be verified.

 5     I asked you earlier whether you challenged it.  You said no.  Now I do

 6     understand that you do challenge it.  This portion will be reviewed.

 7             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Colonel, which road did you take on the 18th to leave Crna Rijeka

10     and go to Bijeljina?

11        A.   Through Vlasenica.  So I went from Vlasenica to Zvornik and then

12     Bijeljina.  On the 18th, the road was open for traffic.  And on the 18th,

13     my assistant Karanovic arrived from Belgrade, and he was also supposed to

14     arrive on the 13th or the 14th.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You were asked about the route.  You have given that

16     answer.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic, and once an answer is given,

18     please put your next question to the witness.

19             Mr. Mladic, audio problems?  If there are any audio problems --

20     no, Mr. Mladic, no loud speaking.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Given the fact that the last answer did not make it into the

23     transcript, I wanted to ask you -- actually that Mr. Mladic didn't hear

24     it, I wanted to ask you whether you saw any police elements along that

25     road.

Page 13085

 1        A.   I don't think so.  I was definitely not stopped anywhere.  And I

 2     don't think I saw anyone along the road.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Trying to conclude on the topic of chronology, I'd

 4     like to ask you just this question.  As of the 18th of July, 1995, how

 5     long did you stay in the Krajina, i.e., when did you return to the

 6     Main Staff?

 7        A.   I stayed there until -- I think until September or until the

 8     Dayton Accords or just before.  When was the Dayton?  Yes, I was there

 9     almost up to the Dayton Accords themselves.

10        Q.   Can you recall when you met General Mladic again?

11        A.   It was in August, at Ostrelj.  He wanted me there.  I was still

12     on sick leave.  I arrived at Ostrelj by helicopter.

13        Q.   What was the topic of your discussion and why did he want to see

14     you?

15        A.   Well, it was also concerning the attack of the Croatian army on

16     the Krajina.  That was the topic.

17        Q.   On that occasion, was there any discussion concerning the

18     Srebrenica and Zepa events?

19        A.   No.  We only focused on the situation unfolding in the area.  The

20     attack on the Krajina had already begun and the units were pulling out

21     from Krajina via Ostrelj and --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness mention the last location,

23     please.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the last location you mentioned?

25     You said pulling out from Krajina via Ostrelj and --

Page 13086

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between Bosanski Petrovac and

 2     Drvar.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5        Q.   Colonel, do you hail from that area?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Was your family forced to move due to the war?

 8        A.   Yes.  I was abroad and returned, but that was later, when the

 9     attack was prolonged or actually when it carried over into Republika

10     Srpska.  My mother was left alone, and the neighbours managed to bring

11     her to the area of Banja Luka.  I arrived a bit late for that.

12        Q.   Allow me to put a few questions about the intercepts.  Given that

13     I suppose you're familiar with the methodology of that kind of work, tell

14     us, please, by your experience in terms of intelligence work and

15     reconnoitring radio communication by the enemy side, such omissions as we

16     saw a moment ago concerning the first and last name, is that possible?

17        A.   Yes, it is.  It frequently happens, even nowadays.  For example,

18     the MUP.  There is a frequent mix-up between the security and

19     intelligence service.  Even now, when I'm introduced by someone from the

20     MUP, they say, This is the man from the security service.  And I say, I'm

21     from the intelligence.  And they say, Well, to us it's the same.  But

22     it's not.  It's possible that someone had another service in mind and

23     another person and my name came up.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We need to pause between

25     questions and answers in order to avoid overlaps.

Page 13087

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please wait until the question is entirely

 2     put and not yet start answering before Mr. Stojanovic, his words, have

 3     been pronounced and have been translated by the interpreters and written

 4     down by the transcribers.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We have some problems with the functioning of

 7     e-court, although LiveNote is still working.  I suggest that we proceed

 8     up until the moment where we are so much bothered by the technical

 9     problems that we will take a break.

10             You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.  I'll

12     follow from my colleague's monitor.

13        Q.   Colonel, this last answer, when I asked you about the reliability

14     and possible mistakes when intercepting radio relay communication, could

15     you briefly repeat your answer because not all of it was recorded.

16        A.   I said it is possible, and that the mixing up of positions is

17     possible, especially when it comes to, for example, this Kovac.  If one

18     were to ask him today where I come from, he would say the security

19     service.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel kindly repeat his question.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat your question, Mr. Stojanovic.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Colonel, given your experience and work in the process of

24     intercepting radio relay communications, omissions or mistakes such as

25     the one with the last name, are they possible and how do they happen?

Page 13088

 1        A.   There are mistakes that are possible.  However, there should be

 2     the original documents pertaining to the conversations recorded.  So a

 3     mistake can be made by the person recording it or by the person in the

 4     reconnaissance unit and, lastly, it can also happen with the person

 5     processing the text.  So much depends on that and who used that

 6     information ultimately.

 7        Q.   In July 1995, could the warring parties be aware of such radio

 8     relay communication being followed by the enemy side?

 9        A.   We knew it throughout, we knew we were being monitored.  We

10     monitored their communications and they did ours.

11        Q.   In military parlance, operational masking or jamming, what does

12     it mean?  And did the VRS use it?

13        A.   It includes a spectrum of measures and activities, resulting in

14     disseminating misinformation.  It includes a number of tactical measures

15     and activities, fake manoeuvres, and transmitting fake information on the

16     air.  Even misinformation in terms of the axis of attack can be

17     intentionally wrong and then it turns out an attack occurred on a

18     different axis.

19        Q.   What was the reliability of intercepts based on your experience

20     in 1995?

21        A.   It was assessed.  Our analysts always designated the degree of

22     reliability.  And we, intelligence men, when we received information we

23     also designated it with the degree of reliability.  Sometimes we would

24     say it is correct or that it needs to be checked or probably correct.  Or

25     that it needs to be verified and only taken note of.

Page 13089

 1        Q.   Thank you.  To conclude, let us touch upon the topic of the

 2     10th Sabotage Detachment.  During examination-in-chief, at some point,

 3     you mentioned an activity that the 10th Sabotage Detachment had with

 4     regards to Srebrenica.  What did you have in mind?  Kindly tell the

 5     Chamber.

 6        A.   You mean before this operation was carried out or what?

 7        Q.   Yes.  June 1995.

 8        A.   Well, yes.  Isn't it the 13th?  There was a sabotage operation

 9     which was planned and executed on Srebrenica.  It was supposed to be

10     cautionary in nature, to send a message to the command and leadership in

11     Srebrenica to cease sabotage and incursions into RS territory.  When this

12     operation took place in parallel with our preparations, they were

13     preparing another operation aimed at our territory.

14        Q.   Where did you get that information from, which then you used as

15     the basis to plan a sabotage operation by the 10th Sabotage Detachment?

16        A.   Well, the service was aware of the situation in Srebrenica up to

17     90 per cent.  There were several sources of information, and one of such

18     sources was electronic surveillance although not to a large extent, but

19     we also had direct information.  The service did have their own man

20     there.

21        Q.   When you say it had its own man, who did you have in mind?

22        A.   A specific person.

23        Q.   When you say "there" --

24        A.   In Srebrenica.

25        Q.   Based on the information you got, were you able to make a

Page 13090

 1     realistic assessment of the condition of the units present in the

 2     Srebrenica enclave?

 3        A.   Yes, I believe we were.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could I ask one question to seek

 5     clarification.  You said there was a sabotage operation which was planned

 6     and executed on Srebrenica.  Were you -- you were involved in the

 7     preparation of that action or in the planning of that?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, is there any -- are there any plans, is

10     there any paperwork, which develops orders given that this was to be

11     meant a separate operation apparently from taking over the enclave, or

12     is -- or did I misunderstand you?  You said it was intended to be of a

13     cautionary nature.  Now, I understand that there is a difference between

14     the taking over of an enclave and to have a sabotage operation with a

15     cautionary nature.  Do you -- could you provide us with further

16     information as to how that sabotage operation was prepared, had it a code

17     name, who was giving instructions to whom, and where we can clearly see

18     that it was not part of the taking over of the enclave, because that's,

19     as I understand, is your view on what happened.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.  The operation was carried

21     out, as far as I remember, at the request of the Chief of Staff of the

22     Drina Corps, or the command of the Drina Corps, General Krstic.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  My question was more whether there was any paperwork

24     which clearly shows that this is apart from the whole of the operation of

25     taking over the enclave of Srebrenica.

Page 13091

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, absolutely.  They were

 2     drafted at the level of the detachment.  There are instructions and I do

 3     believe that the Tribunal, the Prosecution, have specific documents where

 4     this can be seen.  For instance, I can tell you, upon full

 5     responsibility, that I wasn't aware of the fact that the operation for

 6     the takeover of Srebrenica was being planned.  I wasn't aware of it at

 7     all and, of course, didn't participate in it.  I was surprised to receive

 8     information that Srebrenica had been taken, and I was in Banja Luka at

 9     the time, I was on sick leave, and I didn't know that the operation was

10     being planned.  And this operation was absolutely carried out

11     independently of that.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And that was at what point in time, you said?  I'm

13     just trying to -- was that on the 13th of July?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, June, June.  Or

15     actually, sorry, 23 June.  That was my mistake.  I confused it with --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, there was some -- the transcript was not --

17     yes, June is mentioned.  Then it says, "Isn't it the 13th?"  Yes, now

18     it's clear to me.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.  Or should we --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's an error, yes, not the 13th

21     but the 23rd.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Stojanovic --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise for making that

24     mistake.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps this is the

Page 13092

 1     right time for our break and I will then finish in the next ten minutes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  In the next ten minutes.  Another option would be to

 3     continue for another ten minutes, but I'm looking at you and Mr. Mladic

 4     as well, and then to have a -- perhaps we take the break now.

 5             We will take a break and we will resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.

 6             First the witness will be escorted out of the courtroom.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8                           --- Recess taken at 1.15 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 1.36 p.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

11                           [The witness entered court]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Colonel, kindly take -- tell the Chamber, to the best of your

15     recollection, when did you receive information about what had been

16     happening with some members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment in July 1995

17     from the commander of that detachment?

18        A.   It was the operatives of the 410th Intelligence Centre who

19     informed me about it, on the premises of the centre.  They told me the

20     stories that probably originated from the members of the detachment --

21     these members of the detachment.  I asked them where the commander was.

22     He was on annual leave at the time, but he was in Bijeljina, so I called

23     him and told him to come to the premises of the sub-centre of the

24     410th Intelligence Centre -- the sub-centre.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was when you received information.  So

Page 13093

 1     let's start with the when and then Mr. Stojanovic may have other

 2     questions for you.  When was it?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't set a precise date.  Was it

 4     late December or early January, it's hard for me to tell.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Thank you.  In those days of July 1995, was the unit militarily

 7     engaged or was it resting?

 8        A.   As I said, I didn't give the unit its missions, and I didn't

 9     participate in its preparations.  However, what I heard was that the unit

10     was engaged in the combat activities which were supposed to make way into

11     Srebrenica.  Apparently General Krstic asked that the unit be engaged for

12     this assignment.  It was resubordinated to the command of the Drina Corps

13     for those purposes.  It entered the town itself and completed its mission

14     without any losses.

15        Q.   Once it had completed its mission, did you have any information

16     to the effect that one of the members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment was

17     killed in a traffic accident?

18        A.   I was told yes, that the APC skidded off and rolled over, and

19     that was when I came to the command post, when I asked about the

20     detachment.  I called the command post of the 10th Sabotage Detachment,

21     and then the duty officer told me that the unit had participated in the

22     operations in Srebrenica, that it was given 10 days of leave, that the

23     soldiers were currently on furlough.  My next question was where the

24     commander was.  And he told me that the commander was injured and that he

25     was on sick leave.  I asked him was it serious?  He said no.  And that

Page 13094

 1     was it.  That was the extent of my knowledge.

 2        Q.   Following all these months and the discussion with the commander,

 3     did he tell you how it came to that, that the soldiers would be engaged?

 4        A.   Yes.  I did say since they were resting, how come these soldiers

 5     were there and he told me that these were soldiers who simply had nowhere

 6     to go because their home was further away.  They were soldiers from the

 7     territory of the Federation or who had fled that territory.

 8        Q.   Did he tell you at any point that he was involved in any way in

 9     the fact that these soldiers went to Pilica and Branjevo?

10        A.   I told him, Please just answer the questions that I put to you.

11     Did you order that or did you participate in the issuing of orders for

12     the engagement in such operations?  He said not.  Then I asked him, Did

13     you have anything to do with it?  He said no.  Then I said, Very well.

14     And from what I remember, my words, I told him I'm not interested in

15     anything else.  This is a problem and those whose shoe pinches in this

16     matter should deal with it.  And that was my answer.

17        Q.   Did you at any point inform General Mladic of the extent of your

18     conversation with the commander of the 10th Sabotage Detachment?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Did you inform General Tolimir of the content of the

21     conversation?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Were you at any point in such a situation that, following the

24     signing of the Dayton Accords, you would speak to General Mladic about

25     the specific members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment?

Page 13095

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Colonel, tell us, could the members of the 10th Sabotage

 3     Detachment have been engaged by anyone from the security organs at that

 4     point in time?

 5        A.   I don't know, but I don't think so, because under the rules, and

 6     I can speak about the rules, this is part of the preparations for combat,

 7     where you see which units will be in charge of providing security to the

 8     area, who will be in charge of gathering prisoners, which -- who will be

 9     equipping which camps, who will be in charge of transportation, escort,

10     security, et cetera, but as I said, I wasn't involved in the planning so

11     I can't tell you anything about it.

12        Q.   You said at one point, and I will finish on this score, that the

13     10th Sabotage Detachment was involved in the Srebrenica operations and

14     was resubordinated to the Drina Corps at the request of General Krstic.

15     I'm asking you this as a professional soldier:  If one of these soldiers

16     committed a crime, any criminal offence, who within the system of the

17     Army of Republika Srpska would be supposed to take steps to prosecute

18     such individuals?

19        A.   Firstly, the unit commander would have to inform the security

20     organs who, in turn, would have to gather information and get in touch

21     with the prosecutor.  Next, at the request of the prosecutor, they would

22     have to gather enough evidence to enable the prosecutor to initiate

23     criminal proceedings before a military court.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just ask a clarification.  Would the

25     military police not be involved in that exercise?

Page 13096

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes.  Probably the military

 2     police would be involved at a certain point because it's subordinated to

 3     the security organs and to the commander.  Depending on what their

 4     assessment would be, probably the forensic officers of the military

 5     police would be engaged as well.  We did not have any inspectors in the

 6     military police.  We only had scene-of-crime examiners, forensic officers

 7     who could secure the area, fix the traces, et cetera.  And the security

 8     officers would be dealing with the elements preceding the charges that

 9     would be brought by the prosecutor.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  One short and simple question, please a short and

11     simple answer as well:  Was the military police to investigate any crimes

12     committed by members of the army?  Or was it the civilian police?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was a task for the security

14     service.  It should have organised it.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Not for the military police?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The military police receives from

17     their superior, the chief of security, what their tasks are in that

18     regard.  As opposed to the civilian police, the MUP, I have to stress yet

19     again that the military police did not have people in charge of

20     investigations.  They could only document crimes for the sake of

21     security.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then if, as the question was put by

23     Mr. Stojanovic, if one of the soldiers has committed a crime, who would

24     arrest that soldier, if not the military police?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the military police, they

Page 13097

 1     would arrest the people.  It arrests, brings in, detains and guards the

 2     prisons.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm asking you this question because you just said

 4     to us:

 5             "As opposed to the civilian police, the MUP, I have to stress yet

 6     again, that the military police did not have people in charge of

 7     investigations."

 8             Surely they don't just arrest.  They must arrest and investigate,

 9     don't they?  To be able to give a docket to the prosecutor, the military

10     prosecutor.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did not have inspectors --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not talking about inspectors.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and people for investigations.

14     Military police units were military units.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, let's just stop there.  I'm not talking

16     about inspectors.  I'm talking about investigating.  Once they are

17     arrested, they are arrested because of some suspicion, they must

18     investigate that to see whether, in fact, they have a case to put before

19     the prosecutor.  Shouldn't they do that?  Isn't that part of their remit?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes.  Scene-of-crime officers

21     can do that to the extent possible, to take pictures, evidence, objects

22     used to commit the crime, the location of the crime, et cetera.  That's

23     within their remit.  As for security officers, they arrange any further

24     procedure with the prosecutor, and they coordinate the work.  The

25     prosecutor's office takes over the entire case.

Page 13098

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   I will conclude, Colonel, with the following question:  When you

 4     say the security organs of a unit, in the situation of resubordination,

 5     who -- which is the unit whose security organs would be in charge of the

 6     Main Staff, the corps or the brigade?

 7        A.   In cases of subordination, when the task was -- is being

 8     implemented, then it is the security organs of the Drina Corps.  Now,

 9     believe me, I don't know who of the security officers was in charge for

10     the 10th Sabotage Detachment, in terms of security.  In other words, to

11     deal with the information regarding the unit.  Perhaps they had an

12     associate, someone who worked for them in the detachment.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Colonel.  We have no

14     further questions of you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

16             Mr. Vanderpuye, any need to re-examine the witness?

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Indeed, Mr. President, I don't think I'll be

18     able to finish in the 15 or 20 minutes we have left.  I just wanted to

19     advise the Chamber of that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  But I'll --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course which triggers immediately the next

23     question.  How much time do you think you'll need if more than 15 or

24     20 minutes?

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think closer to half an hour to 45 minutes.

Page 13099

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That's on the record, please proceed.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 3                           Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

 4        Q.   Colonel, let me just start where my colleague Mr. Stojanovic left

 5     off.  And that is on the question of responsibility, once there is

 6     knowledge of a crime that's been committed by a soldier.  As a

 7     professional soldier, are you aware of your obligation when you come into

 8     knowledge of a fact that a crime has been committed, particularly a

 9     serious one such as the ones you were alerted to, what your

10     responsibility is to report that crime?

11        A.   Well, when I learned about it, I believe everyone else must have

12     known about it by that time.  Those who were supposed to know must have

13     known far in advance of myself.  For the most part, I was absent.  I only

14     appeared in the area, when was it, but there were officers there working

15     on it, and the MUP, the police, so it's not about one person.  It's

16     everyone.  Everyone knew probably.  What was done, how much.  It is the

17     security service that was in charge of it.  Whether they worked on

18     gathering information, perhaps covertly, I don't know.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm stopping you there.  The question was

20     what your responsibility was.  Now you have told us about the

21     responsibilities of almost everyone else.  The question was about your

22     responsibility.  If this is all to say that there was no responsibility

23     for you, then just say none.  But don't start explaining that it was

24     everyone's responsibility because everyone knew and earlier and -- what

25     was your responsibility when you learned about it?  Could you answer that

Page 13100

 1     question?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll answer it.  In terms of my

 3     position, I did not have any obligation to either investigate or deal

 4     with it.  But as an officer, yes, perhaps I could have -- go to the

 5     security service and talked to a colleague from the security service

 6     about where things were at that moment, et cetera.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, I'm again have to stop you.  You said:  "In

 8     terms of my position, I did not have any obligation to either investigate

 9     or deal with the matter."  That's it.  Then to say but as an officer,

10     your position was that of an officer, so you are not invited to give two

11     different answers to the same question.  You said you had no obligation

12     to either investigate or deal with it.

13             Next question, please, Mr. Vanderpuye.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15        Q.   As a senior, high-ranking officer of the Main Staff, above the

16     corps level, are you saying that as an officer in that position, you had

17     no obligation whatsoever to report the crimes, particularly the very

18     serious crimes that you indicated in your previous evidence in the

19     Tolimir case were horrifying and that you couldn't wrap your head around

20     the scale of those crimes?  Did you think as a senior-ranking officer in

21     the Main Staff of the VRS, that you had no obligation to report that, or

22     did you not report that because you were aware that everyone else knew

23     about it?

24        A.   Absolutely.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Absolutely what?  There are two options given.

Page 13101

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 2        Q.   Did you not report this crime because you knew that other members

 3     of the Main Staff were fully aware of it, both how horrifying it was, and

 4     of its scale and who committed it?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Or was it -- that is the other part of the question,

 6     or was it that you had no obligation to report?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  It is correct.  I heard

 8     there, and also from my operatives that I talked to, and everyone already

 9     knew that.  I think it had already leaked into the town, let alone the

10     army.  So I thought it was a process that was underway.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me then try to see whether I correctly

12     understood your answer.  Do you intend to say that there was an

13     obligation to report but that there was no need to do that any further

14     because everyone knew already?  Is that how I have to understand your

15     testimony?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I believed everyone knew, and

17     from what I learned when I talked to my operatives, yes, correct.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You've answered my question.  Mr. Vanderpuye will

19     put his next question to you.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:

21        Q.   I just want to see if I can get some clarification, Colonel.

22     When you say "everyone knew," you mean everyone in the Main Staff knew,

23     don't you?

24        A.   I have in mind the competent organs from the security service,

25     starting from the battalion up, and probably at the Main Staff, at least

Page 13102

 1     the people who worked in that area or on that topic.

 2        Q.   Let me just come right to it, then.  You knew at the time that

 3     you received this information that everyone in the Main Staff knew,

 4     including General Mladic, about those crimes, right?

 5        A.   I can't say that everybody knew.  I can't say that.  Most did.

 6     For example, some of my desk officers may have well been unaware.  They

 7     were busy with their own thing and did not have much contact with others,

 8     but realistically speaking, yes, probably many people knew because it was

 9     a sizeable operation.  Those people needed to be transported, logistics

10     units engaged, transport organised, engineering -- the engineering corps

11     activated, so many people were probably engaged in it.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I take you back to one of your previous

13     answers?  You said:

14             "Everyone knew, I think even the whole town knew about it, let

15     alone the army," which is language which suggests that at least everyone

16     in the army knew and that many outside the army knew as well.  Is that

17     well understood?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Absolutely, absolutely.

19     Certainly people outside the army knew.  I can't say everyone in the army

20     knew, but many locals knew, people who saw things in the area as well as

21     people from the MUP, the members of the MUP, the whole system.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you're changing your answers all the time.

23     Earlier you said, "everyone in town knew, let alone the army," which

24     means to the extent those in town would not have known, at least everyone

25     in the army would have known.  And now you're twisting it the other way

Page 13103

 1     around.  I just make this observation so that you're aware of how your

 2     evidence at this moment is perceived.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   A moment ago --

 6        A.   Very well.

 7        Q.   You referred to logistics that would be required, engineering

 8     equipment that would be required, people needed to be transported, people

 9     needed to be secured, people needed to be guarded and so on and so forth.

10     All of those activities would have had to have been coordinated

11     centrally.  Correct?

12        A.   Yes.  Somewhere at some level, whether at the level of the corps,

13     because there was a cooperation between the corps.  But as I said, at the

14     beginning, I was not included in any planning for the operation and that

15     I have nothing to do with it.  Now, who had what role to play, that can

16     be seen from the documents pertaining to the planning of the operation.

17        Q.   I'm just asking you about what you knew, when you knew it.  And

18     so when you had your conversation with Miso Pelemis, commander of the

19     10th Sabotage Detachment, and he told you of the extent of the engagement

20     of members of that unit in the massacres or the executions concerning

21     Srebrenica, you believed that other members of the Main Staff were aware

22     of this information, right?  You've confirmed that?

23        A.   Yes, yes.  I believed it to be the case.  Yes.

24        Q.   And you believed that General Mladic knew about that information

25     as well, which is why you didn't report it to him?

Page 13104

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.  This is a directly

 2     leading question outside the context of anything we touched upon in our

 3     cross-examination.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The last is not exactly accurate, but the question

 5     certainly is leading, if you could rephrase it, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 7        Q.   Did you believe that General Mladic knew about the crimes that

 8     you learned were committed by members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment as

 9     conveyed to you by the unit's commander, Pelemis?

10        A.   No.  Believe me.  At that moment I didn't even think about it,

11     whether he knew or not.  I thought that the competent security organs

12     knew by that time, and I thought it was a process that was going on for

13     some time and I was surprised then, and I still feel the same way.  Even

14     today I find it difficult to comprehend that something like that was

15     possible, and yet it happened.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, you asked for what the witness

17     believed.  Could I ask you the following?  Is there any fact to your

18     knowledge that Mr. Mladic would not have known what you said everyone

19     knew?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not attend the briefings.

21     I was away quite a lot, and excluded from it, so I can't assert anything.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you don't have to assert anything whether

23     he knew or not.  I'm asking you whether there is any fact to your

24     knowledge that Mr. Mladic would not have known.  You said everyone in

25     town, let alone the army, knew.

Page 13105

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, not the army.  Not -- well,

 2     most of the officers who were supposed to know probably did.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I'm not asking you who knew and who did not

 4     know.  I'm asking you is there any fact, to your knowledge, that

 5     Mr. Mladic would not have known what you described as was known to

 6     everyone in town, let alone in the army.  Any fact.  I'm only seeking

 7     facts, nothing else.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have a fact.  I can't

 9     provide it.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then next question, please.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Colonel, aside from your legal responsibilities concerning the

13     information that you came into from Pelemis, it was your job, wasn't it,

14     as the chief of intelligence, to relay important information, whatever

15     information, to the commander of the Main Staff, whether that be through

16     General Tolimir, your immediate superior, or directly, as you did when

17     you spoke to him in Srebrenica on 13 July?  Didn't you have a

18     responsibility to relay this information to General Mladic?

19        A.   I did, yes.  I did have an obligation to discuss it with Tolimir,

20     and I think work was being done on gathering information in that regard.

21     At least as far as I knew.

22        Q.   You're the chief of intelligence of the intelligence

23     administration of the VRS?

24        A.   Absolutely.

25        Q.   And you're telling this Chamber that you think, not know, but you

Page 13106

 1     think that information regarding crimes of which you've testified

 2     previously and reiterated today that you were horrified about, that the

 3     scale was almost incomprehensible to you, you think information was being

 4     gathered concerning those crimes but you don't know?

 5        A.   Absolutely.

 6        Q.   You don't know that?

 7        A.   No, no.  What I'm saying is that the security service must have

 8     been gathering information and working on it.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I again intervene --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Checking the information.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.  Facts you are aware of which would have

12     indicated that investigations were ongoing.  That's what I'm asking for,

13     not on whether it should have been the case or whether you -- it would be

14     logical, but just facts indicating that the matter was investigated.  If

15     you have any, please tell us.  If not, tell us as well.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I don't.  I didn't see anyone

17     being interrogated or investigated.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The answer is given, no.  Next question, please --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Let me put a question to you, Mr. Salapura.

21     Mr. Vanderpuye asked you just a couple of minutes ago:

22             "Didn't you have a responsibility to relay this information to

23     General Mladic?"

24             You didn't answer that question.  You answered in a different

25     way.

Page 13107

 1             "I did have an obligation to discuss it with Tolimir."

 2             It was not the question of -- about an obligation to discuss but

 3     a question about the responsibility to report, to relay this information

 4     to the commander, General Mladic.  Did you have that obligation?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I discussed it with Tolimir.  My

 6     superior.  My superior.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  My question was very clear:  Did you have, and

 8     I repeat that, the responsibility to relay this information to

 9     General Mladic?  Which means to report, not to discuss, to report.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not to General Mladic.  I had to

11     speak with General Mladic, my superior.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  With General

13     Tolimir.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I explain?  I sent intelligence

15     information to the -- to Mr. Mladic about the enemy, their plans, and

16     what was going on, but this was an internal problem which had to do --

17     well, I told you I discussed it with Mr. Tolimir, and obviously, it was

18     known by many people.  So my job was over.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I was about to go to a different

20     area and I see that we are out of time.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.  We will adjourn for the day, and

22     Mr. Salapura, I would again like to instruct you that you should not

23     speak or communicate in whatever way with whomever about your testimony,

24     whether that is testimony already given or testimony still to be given,

25     and we would like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same

Page 13108

 1     courtroom.  You may follow the usher.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow,

 4     Friday, the 21st of June, at 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom,

 5     I.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 21st day of June,

 8                           2013, at 9.30 a.m.