1 Thursday, 4 July 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would
6 you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Before we hear the
10 testimony of the next witness unless there are any other preliminaries we
11 will move into closed session.
12 Mr. Groome.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I did have a preliminary. I wanted to
14 inquire --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
16 MR. GROOME: -- the day before yesterday I made an application
17 with respect to RM070. I was wondering whether the Chamber has had a
18 chance to deliberate and make a decision on that application.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I will inform you later this morning.
20 MR. GROOME: Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we move into closed session, unknown for how
23 Ms. Hasan.
24 MS. HASAN: Good morning, Mr. President and Your Honours,
25 everyone in and around the courtroom. I just wanted to raise with
1 respect to --
2 JUDGE ORIE: We are not yet in closed session until
3 Madam Registrar has confirmed so.
4 [Closed session]
11 Pages 13790-13804 redacted. Closed session.
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
2 Witness RM254, you'll first be examined by Ms. Hasan. You'll
3 find Ms. Hasan to your right. Ms. Hasan is counsel for the Prosecution.
4 Ms. Hasan.
5 MS. HASAN: Thank you, Your Honour. Could we call up
6 65 ter 29069, please, and this should not be broadcast.
7 Examination by Ms. Hasan:
8 Q. Witness, without readings out loud what you see on the screen
9 before you, could you confirm that the name and date of birth recorded
10 there is accurate?
11 A. Yes.
12 MS. HASAN: I'd offer 65 ter 29069 into evidence under seal.
13 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document receives P1688, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence under seal.
17 MS. HASAN:
18 Q. Witness, just to remind myself and to remind you to pause between
19 question and answer and to speak at a good pace so that the interpreters
20 can keep up with our words.
21 Do you recall providing a statement to the ICTY on 18th of August
22 in 1996?
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. HASAN: Could we see 65 ter 29011 on the screen without it
25 being broadcast.
1 Q. Okay. Witness, take a look at this page. Could you confirm
2 whether or not you are identified here on this cover page?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And if I could ask you to look to the bottom right-hand corner of
5 the English version of this document. Do you recognise your signature
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. HASAN: And if I could ask to turn to page 5 in the English
10 Q. Witness, do you recognise your signature on this page?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, Witness, we've met over the last few days, and we have
13 discussed a number of corrections that you wish to make to this
14 statement. Do you recall those discussions?
15 A. Yes.
16 MS. HASAN: I'd ask that 65 ter 29081 be displayed and again not
17 be broadcast. Your Honours, this is a document that's a list of
18 corrections that the witness made to his statement over the last couple
19 days, and it was not on our 65 ter list originally as it was just
20 created, and I ask that we get leave to add it to the 65 ter list and use
21 it today.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections, Mr. Ivetic? For the record,
23 Mr. Ivetic nodded no. Madam Registrar -- first, Ms. Hasan, leave is
24 granted to add 65 ter 29081 to your 65 ter list. And may I take it that
25 you are going to tender that as well?
1 MS. HASAN: Yes, I will. I just have a few questions for the
2 witness relating to that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so. Please put questions.
4 MS. HASAN:
5 Q. Okay. Witness, do you recall reviewing this document?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And do the corrections therein accurately reflect the corrections
8 and clarifications you wish to make to your 1996 ICTY witness statement?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, I don't intend to go over all of these, but I do want to ask
11 you about one of those corrections, and this, in fact, relates to your
12 statement where you've identified seeing certain individuals. It might
13 be helpful to call up that, and for this purpose, I'm going to call up
14 65 ter 29080.
15 MS. HASAN: And, Your Honours, just so that this is clear, what I
16 have done is I've taken the witness statement and numbered the
17 paragraphs. So this version of the witness statement with the numbered
18 paragraphs accompanies the corrections so that they can be tied together
19 more easily.
20 So if we could turn to page 5.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, perhaps a general observation. We always
22 attached to the 92 ter motions we find unnumbered statements. Later
23 always the numbers are referred to, whereas the Chamber then has the
24 unnumbered versions. Perhaps it would be far more convenient for
25 everyone if you already numbered the statements, perhaps indicating that
1 you have done so after the statement was taken in the attachment to the
2 92 ter motions. That would save a lot of confusion. But this is
3 unrelated specifically to this witness.
4 MS. HASAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. So, Witness, what's numbered here as paragraph 13 -- and if we
6 could turn also to the same page in the B/C/S version. And this
7 shouldn't be broadcast. I'm not sure if it is or isn't at the moment,
8 but ...
9 Now, Witness, here you recall naming a number of individuals that
10 you saw. Do you see that there in paragraph 13, and in the B/C/S version
11 it's the first paragraph.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, do you recall these people?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you tell us how it is that you know them?
16 A. I knew them. These are my neighbours from the village.
17 Q. Okay. And can you tell us when was the last time that you saw
18 these individuals?
19 A. I saw those individuals the last time when we were arrested, when
20 we were driven towards Konjevic Polje.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak up.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please speak a little louder and
23 well in the microphone so the interpreters can hear you well?
24 MS. HASAN:
25 Q. So you saw them in Burnice; is that correct? Is that what you're
1 referring to?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you see them at the meadow that you were taken to?
4 A. Yes, they were.
5 Q. Did you see these individuals in Bratunac?
6 A. No.
7 Q. So is it correct, then, that you wish to amend your statement,
8 that paragraph of the statement, so that the last time you saw these
9 individuals named here was at the meadow and not at Bratunac?
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. HASAN: If we could go briefly into private session, please.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
13 [Private session]
11 Page 13811 redacted. Private session.
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
2 MS. HASAN:
3 Q. Now --
4 A. Thank you, Madam Registrar.
5 MS. HASAN:
6 Q. Witness, the information that you've provided in your statement
7 taking into account these clarifications and corrections that you have
8 made, is it true and accurate to the best of your knowledge?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And if you were asked today about those same matters would you
11 provide the same answers subject to those clarifications and corrections?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, I'd offer the witness statement dated
14 18 August, 1996, and perhaps I would suggest we go with the one with the
15 numbered paragraphs which is 65 ter 29081 into evidence under seal.
16 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 29081 receives number P1689,
19 Your Honours.
20 MS. HASAN: And it's also --
21 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence under seal. And now
22 the corrections, I take it, Ms. Hasan.
23 MS. HASAN: Yes, that's correct. That's 65 ter 29080.
24 MR. IVETIC: I believe it's 29081.
25 MS. HASAN: That's correct. Thank you. 29081.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for the assistance, Mr. Ivetic.
2 Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I believe we already assigned a
4 number to 29081.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore -- and -- yes. Did we admit it already?
6 Yes, it was admitted, so therefore there is no need to admit it again,
7 Ms. Hasan. Let me --
8 MS. HASAN: I think the error comes from me. I initially
9 referred to the statement as 29081 when it should have about 29080 with
10 the corrections being 29081.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Now I'm lost.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar will now assign a number to
15 65 ter 29080.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Which receives number P1690, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: P1690 is admitted into evidence under seal.
18 Ms. Hasan, we are at the time where we need a break, but before
19 we do so, we move into closed session so that the witness can leave the
20 courtroom, and we'll resume in closed session at 10 minutes to 11.00.
21 [Closed session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 If you'd bear with us for a second and have some patience.
16 Before we continue and being in open session, Mr. Stojanovic, I
17 would like to address you briefly, and I do this on behalf of the
18 Trial Chamber which is unanimous in this respect.
19 This Chamber has allowed Mr. Ivetic to examine witnesses despite
20 the fact that he's not appointed counsel or co-counsel, assigned counsel
21 or co-counsel. As a member of the Defence team, Mr. Ivetic acts in
22 disrespect under your supervision and your responsibility. In your
23 presence, Mr. Ivetic misbehaved today in more than one respect. One of
24 the questions he did put to the witness was unfair, and the knowledge
25 Mr. Ivetic later showed to have made it also clear that he should have
1 been aware of the inappropriateness of this question.
2 Further, Mr. Ivetic used a tone which was disproportionally
3 aggressive and triumphant and the same can be said of his gestures. He
4 finally ignored the way in which the Presiding Judge had stated he wanted
5 to deal with the two cases where there was a dispute between Prosecution
6 and Defence as to whether and what protective measures had been applied.
7 He instead wanted to pursue the approach he apparently preferred and did
8 not hesitate to interrupt the Presiding Judge repeatedly to this end.
9 Mr. Stojanovic, it would have been appropriate for you to
10 intervene as counsel present to put an end to the misconduct of
11 Mr. Ivetic. Counsel responsible for the conduct of -- in court of
12 Mr. Ivetic as a member of the Defence team further should be aware --
13 when I say "counsel," I refer to you as co-counsel and Mr. Lukic as
14 counsel, should be aware that if this behaviour would be repeated, that
15 there may come a point where the Chamber will have to reconsider the
16 leave it granted for this team member, not being counsel or being
17 co-counsel, to examine witnesses at trial.
18 I leave it to that, and we will now continue to hear the
19 testimony of this witness.
20 Ms. Hasan, you may proceed.
21 MS. HASAN: Before putting further questions, Your Honours, I
22 will read a brief summary of the witness's prior evidence.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
24 MS. HASAN: After Srebrenica fell, the witness and his father
25 went to Jaglici where they left towards Buljim and Kamenica. They were
1 ambushed near Kamenica and the witness was separated from his father. He
2 continued on his own through the woods and eventually descended to a
3 village he spotted. On his way down, he was captured by Serb soldiers
4 and taken near a warehouse. He saw several other Serb soldiers escorting
5 ten other captured men. The Serb soldiers executed these men and wounded
6 a 17-year-old boy outside of this warehouse. While fetching water for
7 one of the Serb soldiers, the witness managed to escape into the woods.
8 The witness made his way to Burnice village where he recalls
9 spending the night and looking for food the next day and then being
10 surrounded by Serb soldiers. These soldiers escorted the men they
11 captured in a column from the hills to the asphalt road leading to
12 Konjevic Polje. The prisoners were taken to a meadow where their hands
13 were tied with wire and they were forced to lie down. A short,
14 overweight brown-haired soldier who appeared to be in charge asked the
15 witness how old he was. The witness said he was 13 years old. The
16 soldier in charge cut the wire on his hands and took the witness to a bus
17 where he saw three other young boys. The witness and the other boys were
18 taken to the military barracks in Bratunac where they were interrogated
19 and filmed. On the following day, four Serb soldiers transported them in
20 a white UNPROFOR UN vehicle to the Zvornik police station. They were
21 then taken to Kalesija where they were released.
22 That concludes the summary.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
24 MS. HASAN:
25 Q. Witness, how old were you in July of 1995?
1 A. I was 16.
2 Q. Now, the Judges have read your statement, so they know -- are
3 aware of the events that you went through. Can you tell us, did those
4 events have a traumatic effect on you, and, if so, in what way?
5 A. Yes. To this day I have trauma. I cannot sleep at night.
6 MS. HASAN: Could we see Exhibit P1690, which is the witness --
7 witness's statement, and if that -- that shouldn't be broadcast. And if
8 we could in the English turn to page 3, paragraph 6. And that's the same
9 in B/C/S.
10 Q. Witness, as that comes up, in that paragraph 6 you discuss a
11 soldier who asked you to fetch some water?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So it's page 3, paragraph 6 in both versions. And if you take a
14 look at the bottom of paragraph 6 you say as you went to get water:
15 "I went to leave my rifle on the ground, but he said to me not to
16 leave my rifle on the ground ...," and it goes on.
17 Now, when you were captured near the warehouse in the Kravica
18 area, were you carrying a rifle?
19 A. No.
20 Q. So where did you get that rifle from?
21 A. Well, we were given that rifle by those Serb soldiers. I don't
22 know exactly how many of us there were. They gave us those rifles and
23 told us to walk ahead of them. They took us down below, not far from
24 there. They said that the Bosnian Army should come by there, and I know
25 that they mention the commander, Ejub Golic, and if we did not shoot at
1 them, that they would shoot us and kill us.
2 MS. HASAN: Could we turn to page 4 in the statement. It's at
3 page 3 in the B/C/S version, paragraph 9.
4 Q. Witness, in that paragraph you discuss your arrival at Burnice
5 village, and you say:
6 "Our group of ten arrived at Burnice village. There were about
7 500 others. I stayed the night there and spent the next day looking for
8 food. At about 6.00 p.m. on 15 July 1995, we were surrounded by Serbs."
9 Witness, that date that is provided there, is that a precise date
10 or is it an approximation?
11 A. No. It's just an approximation. I didn't know what date it was
12 or what time it was. I didn't know any of that.
13 Q. Now, when you were in Burnice village and the Serbs -- Serbs
14 surrounded and captured you, how did you come to the conclusion that
15 there were 500 of you that were captured?
16 A. Well, yes. When we were captured, we were made to go up to a
17 meadow, there we were lined up, and they counted us while swearing at us,
18 saying, You're Balijas mother, and so on. He said, Because of 500 of you
19 Balijas, you were so loud the whole of Serbia had to move.
20 Q. And as you were being escorted by the soldiers there Burnice to
21 the meadow by the asphalt road, did anything happen to the men in the
23 A. Yes. One of our men, Muslims, tried to escape, and a Serb
24 soldier shot him on the spot, dead.
25 Q. So you were then taken to a meadow near an asphalt road. As best
1 you can, can you describe for us where the meadow was located.
2 A. Well, yes. As far as I can remember and to this day every time I
3 pass by there I have confirmed again and again that this meadow is near
4 Lolici. Below the road there is a water fountain there that had been
5 built in the meantime.
6 Q. So the water fountain, where was it relative to the meadow?
7 A. This water fountain is above the road, whereas we were below the
8 asphalt road. We were lower down. And this water fountain was on the
9 other side of the asphalt road above -- above the road.
10 Q. Did that fountain exist at the time you were taken to the meadow?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you describe the fountain?
13 A. Well, yes. It was a water fountain, a water tap, really. There
14 was a pipe, a water pipe, coming out of this water fountain. It was made
15 of concrete.
16 Q. Now, you mentioned the village of Lolici. Can you give us a bit
17 more -- can you orient us a little bit more as to where it was? Was it
18 in the village, near the village, between which villages? Can you help
19 us out there?
20 A. Yes, this village, Lolici, there is another village there,
21 Pervani, we were closer to Pervani -- or rather, I'm not sure but I
22 believe that we were closer to Pervani there at the meadow.
23 Q. Now, in your statement you say that when you arrived at this
24 meadow, this field, there were 500 corpses lying all over it. How did
25 you arrive at that figure?
1 A. Well, I was so scared and it seemed to me as if there were 500
2 bodies, but there were probably around a hundred. They were scattered
3 all over the meadow, because they had been shot dead before.
4 MS. HASAN: Can we briefly go into private session.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, could I ask one question. One of
6 your previous answer was that there was a water fountain. You then said
7 below the road, whereas you said later on the upper side of the road
8 "that had been built in the meantime." What do you refer to if you say
9 "in the meantime?" The time between what and what?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I meant this: After the war
11 it was just built upon, but the water pipe was there, and it was above
12 the road, as I've already said.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much for this clarification.
14 We move into private session.
15 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 MS. HASAN:
20 Q. If we could take a look at this statement again, and at page 5,
21 paragraph 13.
22 Witness, you describe in this paragraph that the morning after
23 you arrived at the Bratunac barracks that you were interrogated and then
24 taken out to play football with the Chetniks. Can you tell us a little
25 bit more about those circumstances?
1 A. Yes. We were detained there, and then they took us out, outside
2 the barracks, and we had to play ball with the Serbs, and then they
3 filmed that with a video camera. And then they took us back inside, and
4 then again they took us out and let us see the TV programme that they had
5 filmed earlier.
6 Q. Just to follow up on a couple of things. When you say, "We had
7 to --we had to play ball with the Serbs," what do you me by that? Were
8 you forced? Did you go there voluntarily? Can you explain that for us?
9 A. Well, yes. We couldn't say no. They didn't force us, but we
10 wouldn't dare say no. We were afraid for our own safety. We thought
11 that if we refused that they would just shoot us dead.
12 Q. Did they tell you anything about why they were filming you?
13 A. No. As far as I can remember, no.
14 Q. When you were driven from Bratunac in a white UN vehicle, what
15 did you think was going to happen to you at that point?
16 A. Well, yes. We couldn't really believe that they would let us go
17 to the free territory. During that entire trip we thought that they were
18 taking us somewhere where they would kill us, like they killed everybody
19 else, that we could see for ourselves. That's all we could think of. We
20 weren't thinking of any future survival or our families or anything.
21 Q. When you were eventually taken to Kalesija and released, do you
22 have any recollection today about when you arrived there, the date?
23 A. No. No. No. I couldn't even believe that I had crossed over
24 into Kalesija. And as for the dates, no.
25 MS. HASAN: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hasan.
2 Before the Defence will start its cross-examination,
3 Judge Fluegge has a question for the witness.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes. We have still the document on the screen.
5 It should not be broadcast. Paragraph 13, I would like to ask you for a
6 clarification. You are telling there about the bus where you were in,
7 and you were driven to Bratunac, and then you are saying:
8 "As I was walking out of the bus, I heard a Serb soldier from the
9 trucks ask the commander what to do with the people. The commander was
10 outside, and he replied to take them to the Vuk Karadzic school where the
11 killing place was."
12 Especially the last part of that I don't fully understand. Did
13 the commander say that killing will take place there, or how did you know
14 that that was a killing place?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no. That's what he said,
16 Take them to the Vuk Karadzic school. You know where the killing take
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: These were the words of the commander. He told
19 the Serb soldier; is that correct?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you heard that yourself?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, are you ready to cross-examine the
1 MR. IVETIC: I am, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
5 Q. Good day, sir.
6 MR. IVETIC: I would like to start with some background
7 questions, and to do so I would ask that we go into private session to
8 protect your identity.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
10 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
2 Q. Now, sir, I wish to go over some parts of your Rule 92 ter
3 statement that has been tendered by the Prosecution in this trial.
4 MR. IVETIC: As a preliminary matter, every time we pull it up
5 can we please be sure not to broadcast the same, and I'd like to pull up
6 P1690 under seal, and if we can turn to page 2 in both versions.
7 Q. And while we wait for that, sir, I should ask you first if at the
8 time of making this statement in 1996 did you have the ability to read or
9 speak the English language?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And how about now? Do you speak or read English?
12 A. No, I don't.
13 Q. Okay. And now I want to focus on the second paragraph at the
14 top, and here you say that:
15 "Some soldiers came to our village on 11 July 1995 to say that
16 Srebrenica had fallen and that we must leave the area. I heard
17 aeroplanes and two strikes in the morning of that day. Our family had to
18 split up. My mother, younger brother and sister went towards Potocari,
19 and me and my father, born 1995 in Srebrenica, left with the Bosnian Army
20 in the direction of Buljim."
21 Now, I want to first clarify with you the soldiers that came to
22 your village and told you that you must leave the area because Srebrenica
23 had fallen, are we talking about Armija BiH soldiers here?
24 A. Yes. BiH Army soldiers who were going from Srebrenica and who
25 passed through our village, they told us that Srebrenica had fallen and
1 that we had to go.
2 Q. And is it also correct that these Armija BiH soldiers that told
3 you that you had to go also told you that women and children were to go
4 to the UN compound in Potocari?
5 A. Yes.
23 Okay. Now, sir, could you clarify for us whether it was the
24 Armija BiH or UNPROFOR that instructed the women and children to go to
25 the compound in Potocari?
1 A. Before the soldiers came there were some stories, but nobody from
2 UNPROFOR came to our village to go down there, but there was just this
3 talk that we should go to UNPROFOR, but we did not believe that. Only
4 when our soldiers came from Srebrenica and said that Srebrenica had
5 fallen, only then did we believe it, and then our women and children set
6 off towards Potocari.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan.
8 MS. HASAN: I'm sorry to interrupt the cross-examination. Could
9 we go into private session briefly.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
11 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
1 MR. IVETIC:
2 Q. Now, at the time that you -- that you and your father set out
3 with the BiH Army for Buljim, were either of you armed?
4 A. You mean me and my father?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. No. None of us had weapons.
7 Q. If we can return to your Rule 92 statement, 1906 under seal, and
8 not broadcast the same. And if we can return to page 2, I want to look
9 at portions of the third paragraph with you.
10 And, sir, here in the third paragraph, it's about the fourth line
11 in English and it's about the fourth and fifth lines in the B/C/S of this
12 paragraph, it says:
13 "In the morning we moved on through Buljim towards Kamenica. We
14 got to a hill above Kamenica and sat down to rest. We were separated by
15 brigades to rest. Mine was," and you list the name of the brigade, "and
16 there were about 1.000 of us in my group."
17 So I want to ask you, sir, this brigade that you mentioned, was
18 it within the structure of the Armija BiH?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How did you become a member of this brigade?
21 A. No. I did not become a member of the brigade. Us civilians had
22 to go with the army. Children over 16, for example, did not dare to go
23 to Potocari because the children were being separated as well. So we had
24 to go through the woods with our parents.
25 Q. And in relation to the 1.000 men that were part of your group, am
1 I correct that a certain number of them had weapons in their possession?
2 A. No. Most of them --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, you were talking about 1.000 men. As
4 I read here, it says, "And there were about 1.000 of us in my group." It
5 doesn't state whether these are men, and now you've just told us that
6 there were children also over 16 who accompanying people,
7 accompanying this --
8 MR. IVETIC: I apologise, Your Honour. You're absolutely
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 MR. IVETIC:
12 Q. Sir, the 1.000 of you that were part of the group, am I correct
13 that a certain number of those individuals had weapons in their
15 A. There were those who were carrying weapons. This was the
16 B and H Army members who were walking ahead. We were walking in the
17 back, civilians, without weapons, as well as civilians who were
18 unprepared for battle, civilians and children.
19 Q. And -- and with respect to those persons that were armed as part
20 of this group, is it correct that in addition to hunting rifles they also
21 had automatic rifles and so on?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. IVETIC: Now, I'd like to take a look at 65 ter number 29071
24 but not broadcast the same to the public. And if we could look at
25 page 17 in the English and page 24 in the B/C/S. And it's the second
1 half of the page in the English, whereas in the B/C/S it's at the top.
2 Q. And you're talking about the first ambush in Kamenica, and I'd
3 like to discuss with you that, if I may. First, I'll read for you what
4 is recorded in this transcript:
5 "Defence counsel: Was that first ambush in Kamenica?
6 "The Witness: The first ambush was immediately here when we left
7 from Buljim, but I wasn't in that ambush. I had already passed that
8 ambush. I came across the second ambush in Kamenica.
9 "Defence counsel: Was anyone killed in that first ambush?
10 "The witness: Yes.
11 "Defence counsel: From the column, yes?
12 "The witness: Yes.
13 "Defence counsel: What happened to those bodies?
14 "The witness: Well those bodies remained there in those places
15 where they were killed.
16 "Defence counsel: All right. And tell me, in relation to the
17 place where you were in the column, where were those armed men?
18 "The witness: Those armed men always went first. Those who had
19 weapons went first. Those of us who didn't have weapons went behind, and
20 that is how it went.
21 "Defence counsel: Were there any people at the end of the column
22 with weapons?
23 "The witness: There were a few hunting rifles and that was it."
24 Now, is this part that I've just read to you both truthful and
25 accurate as to the facts that are contained therein such that you would
1 so testify today if I were to ask you the same questions?
2 Perhaps I can break it up. Sir, the part that I've read for you,
3 is it both truthful and accurate as to the facts cited therein?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And would you so testify today the same way if I were to ask you
6 the same questions about these same facts?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And now I want to return to your Rule 92 ter statement, P1690,
9 and again the same should not be broadcast, and again we need page 2 in
10 both languages.
11 And again, in paragraph 3, approximately the sixth and seventh
12 lines in the B/C/S, you say:
13 "During the night of 13 July, 1996," which has been corrected to
14 1995, "we were ambushed. A beech tree was felled and then the ambush
15 started from all sides. All types of fire were used: Rifles, bombs,
16 hand grenades, mines, and war agents. When we all dispersed, I was split
17 up from my father and I did not see him until after that. I've not heard
18 of him since then. After the first ambush and around dawn," and then you
20 So I want to ask you: This description that I've just read from
21 your 92 ter statement, does it in fact relate to the first ambush that
22 you were not involved in according to the testimony we just looked at?
23 A. No. That was a different ambush where this tree fell.
24 Q. Okay. Let's focus on the part that I read to you from your
25 92 ter statement. Were you personally present and did you personally
1 experience that particular ambush which is -- which is detailed there
2 with the beech tree falling, all types of fire being used: Rifles,
3 bombs, hand grenades, mines and war agents?
4 A. Yes. I was there, but I don't remember the war agents, but I
5 remember everything else.
6 Q. Okay. And so -- and so in this paragraph when it says:
7 "After the first ambush and around dawn a helicopter was above,
8 and through a megaphone it told people that there was food for them and
9 to come out into the open from the woods," is this first ambush talking
10 about this incident that you were present for, or is it talking about the
11 incident that we looked at in your other testimony that you were not
12 present for?
13 A. Well, yes. I don't remember the helicopters or anything like
14 that. I don't remember them flying over us. I tried to remember that,
15 but, really, I cannot.
16 Q. Fair enough, sir. We'll get to the helicopters in a little bit.
17 If we look at the middle of this paragraph again that's on the
18 screen, paragraph 3, you describe how Chetniks infiltrated the column and
19 pretended to be wounded, and you saw one lure a person to help them and
20 then stab them. And I want to ask you first: Was this Chetnik who was
21 pretending to be wounded lying down or on his back at the time that he
22 lured the person to come over to assist him?
23 A. I don't remember if he was lying down or not, but I know that
24 there were many such cases in the woods, people saying that they knew the
25 way as guides and then they would take 10 or 15 people with them, and
1 then those people would never return.
2 Q. I'm talking now specifically about the incident that you've
3 identified with the Chetnik that was wounded and lured someone and then
4 stabbed them. Do you recall if that was the only such instance of that
5 which you saw?
6 A. I don't recall that. All I know is that throughout our passage
7 through the woods people said that we should not be going anywhere with
8 unknown people because Chetniks had infiltrated themselves among us
9 wearing regular clothing like us and that during the night they would
10 lure people away or stab them or lead them to ambushes.
11 Q. Sir, let me see if I can clarify this. Did you in fact actually
12 see anyone lured over by a Chetnik pretending to be wounded and then to
13 be stabbed by that same Chetnik as is recorded in your Rule 92 ter
15 A. I don't recall seeing anything like that. It's possible that I
16 did see something like that, but I do not remember. It's possible that I
17 do not remember it.
18 Q. Okay. Now, did anyone ever call you over to ask you to dress a
19 wound that you thought was a Chetnik?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did that person appear to be armed that called you over to ask
22 you to dress a wound?
23 A. No. They were wearing civilian clothing, just lying there, but I
24 did not dare go up to them because of all of those things that I heard
25 that were going on. I ran away from that place.
1 Q. Okay. Now I would like to turn to the next --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one clarifying question.
3 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You said you do remember that a Chetnik called you
5 over to dress a wound but that you fled. You said he was in civilian
6 clothes. Now, how do you know that he was a Chetnik, or was it just that
7 you feared he might be a Chetnik which was luring you into a dangerous
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I was afraid that that was a
10 Chetnik, because there was talk that Chetniks had infiltrated the woods
11 and that they were using these tricks and deceit, so I did not dare
12 approach the person, and I ran away from that place.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And you were never able to establish whether he
14 really was a Chetnik or not.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I think we're close to the point where
17 we would take a break.
18 MR. IVETIC: When we could do that, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we first turn into closed session in
20 order to allow the witness to leave the courtroom, and we will resume at
21 a quarter past 12.00, again in closed session.
22 [Closed session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
12 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
13 Q. Sir, if we can turn to - I apologise - the next page of your
14 Rule 92 ter statement. So it's the next page in both languages. We're
15 looking at the middle of the paragraph that's been marked 5.
16 Now, here, sir, towards the end of the paragraph number 5 of the
17 statement that you have confirmed as being truthful and accurate and that
18 has been admitted into evidence under seal, you say as follows:
19 "The soldiers who caught me had red bands around their arms with
20 something saying 'Yugoslavia' on them."
21 Could you describe for me your recollection of these bands that
22 the soldiers had on their arms. Is this, in fact, something that you
23 recall seeing?
24 A. Yes. Some had regular simple red bands, while others had this
25 band on which it said "Yugoslavia." Now, whether this was just written
1 out in some ink or something, I don't know, but it said "Yugoslavia."
2 Q. Okay. And with respect to this paragraph - we'll stay here
3 again - you identify an incident where some persons were shot at the
4 warehouse, and you say as follows:
5 "The Serbs escorting the other captured ten people then executed
6 them all, except one kid of about 17 years who was wounded. Before they
7 got to the warehouse the Serb soldiers lined them up in front of the
8 warehouse but not right by it, at a right angle to the warehouse. The
9 soldiers stood about 10 metres away and three soldiers opened fire with a
10 burst from their automatic rifles. I have drawn a sketch map at Annex B
11 to show where the soldiers and the people stood in relation to the
12 warehouse as well as showing where the woods were from which I had come.
13 They were left there in a heap, and the other Serb soldiers said this
14 would happen to us if we tried to escape. They took the kid who was
15 wounded and put him by the side of the road. They did not dress his
16 wound, and he himself did not dare to dress it. He was just there
17 whining. I do not know the names of any who were killed or of the kid
18 wounded or of the Serb soldiers who did the killing. The Serb soldiers
19 had dark green camouflage uniforms on, no hats, and looked just normal."
20 Now, in relation to this incident, we've already clarified that
21 in fact you did know the person, the kid who was wounded. Is that
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And is it your testimony that they left this kid by the side of
25 the road whining?
1 A. Not by the road. They took him behind a hangar, behind the green
2 building. He was moaning.
3 Q. Am I to take it from this that they did not -- that they did not
4 attempt to dress his wounds or seek to have someone else dress his
6 A. No.
7 Q. No. A Serb soldier just said, Why did you wound this kid? He's
8 not to blame for anything. And these two other soldiers picked him up
9 and carried him behind this warehouse, behind the green building.
10 MR. IVETIC: If we can take a look at 65 ter number 29070, and
11 page 14 of the same in English and page 17 of the B/C/S but not broadcast
12 the same to the public.
13 Q. And I'd like to start at line 19 of the same, and if you can
14 follow along, sir. Here you identify the person who was wounded, and you
15 say as follows:
16 "He got wounded there, and I don't know what happened to him
18 "Q. Can you tell me how he not wounded? Can you give us some
20 And then you answered -- hold on.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. "A Serb soldier pointed his rifle at him and wounded him on the
23 legs, and then he said, 'This child needs his wounds to be dressed.' And
24 then two of them took him behind the warehouse and I don't know what
25 happened to him. I've never seen him since."
1 Is this prior testimony that I've read out for you truthful and
2 accurate as to these facts?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Would you answer the same way today subject to the solemn
5 declaration to tell the truth if we were to ask you these same questions?
6 A. Yes. About this youth who was wounded, I know that he was
7 wounded there and that he was carried behind the hangar.
8 Q. Okay.
9 MR. IVETIC: And if we can just look briefly at number 29071 in
10 e-court, again not broadcasting the same to the public. And in that
11 document I will be needing page 9 in English at the middle of the page,
12 and page 12 in the B/C/S at the bottom of the page.
13 Q. And, sir, I'd like to read for you what is recorded here,
14 although I will omit references to the name of the person who was
16 "The prosecutor: Did you recognise any people you knew, any
17 friends there?
18 "The witness: Yes.
19 "The prosecutor: Who did you recognise?
20 "The witness: I recognised my schoolmate," and then you name
21 him, "who was wounded there in this group -- in that group and remained
22 wounded in Kravica.
23 "The prosecutor: How old was...," and then he says the name.
24 "The witness: Well, he was my schoolmate. We were in the same
25 grade, so we were the same generation.
1 "The prosecutor: How was ..."
2 And now we need to turn to the next page in the B/C/S:
3 "The witness: He was 16 years old."
4 And let me just stop it right here. Was the person who was
5 wounded 16 or 17 years, sir?
6 A. Well, I'm not sure, but we were classmates, schoolmates. Whether
7 he was 16 or 17, I'm not sure, but I know that we were in the same grade
8 and that we were the same generation.
9 Q. Okay. Thank you for that clarification. I'd like to now
10 continue from where we left off:
11 "The prosecutor: How was he wounded?
12 "The witness: He was wounded in the legs by a burst of shots and
13 then they yelled, 'Help him.'
14 "The prosecutor: You pointed to the area of the knees.
15 "The witness: Yes.
16 "The prosecutor: You want to say that he was shot in that area?
17 "The witness: Yes, in that area in the area of the knees, legs.
18 He was wounded there because they shot him in the legs and he fell.
19 "The prosecutor: And did you see where the others were shot?
20 "The witness: I didn't.
21 "The prosecutor: You just saw them shooting at them?
22 "The witness: Yes and then.
23 "The prosecutor: Did you see the others fall?
24 "The witness: Yes, he was wounded and then they said 'The child
25 needs help,' and then two of their soldiers came from somewhere and took
1 that boy and took him behind this -- behind this building and that boy
2 never appeared again."
3 First of all, sir, this selection that I've read, does it
4 truthfully and accurately depict the facts as you know them about this
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Would you so testify again today subject to the solemn
8 declaration to tell the truth?
9 A. Yes. With respect to what happened in Kravica, yes.
10 Q. Okay. Now, when you say that they yelled, "Help him," who was it
11 who yelled, "Help him"?
12 A. Yes, that's what the Serb soldier said. He said, The child
13 should be helped. He's not to blame for anything, and you shouldn't have
14 wounded him.
15 Q. Okay.
16 MR. IVETIC: Now, if we can look at 65 ter number 29070, page 21
17 of the English and page 24 of the B/C/S.
18 Q. And, Witness, again I'll be reading for you to follow along. You
19 can also follow along the B/C/S beginning at line 14 of the page that is
20 now on the left of your screen. And I believe this is in relation to
21 your escape from Kravica and going to Burnice village.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And it starts at line 9 in the English. The question asked was:
24 "What happened after you escaped? What did you do then?"
25 And you answer as follows:
1 "I ran to the woods, and I found some ... some of our soldiers
2 who were in the forest. They started shooting after me when they saw me
3 running, but nobody hit me. Nobody ... no bullet got me, so I managed to
4 get out unscathed."
5 Sir, is this answer that I've read out from the -- from this
6 other proceeding both truthful and accurate as to your recollection of
7 the facts?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Would you so testify again today if asked the same questions the
10 same way subject to the solemn declaration to tell the truth?
11 A. Yes, only while I was fleeing, when I got to the water to pour
12 some water for myself I found a girl there some 13 -- between 13 and 15
13 years of age whose throat had been slit, and that's when I decided to
14 run. I thought, Well, I better be -- I better be hit by a bullet rather
15 than my throat slit.
16 Q. Okay. We'll get to that. Now, were the Serbs shooting at you at
17 the time that you ran into these persons that you identify as "our
18 soldiers"? Is that a proper understanding of this testimony?
19 A. No. While I was running across this meadow and as I got into the
20 woods, they noticed that I was fleeing, and then they open -- they
21 started shooting after me.
22 Q. Who's the "they"? That's what I'm trying to determine, sir.
23 A. Well, those were the Serbs shooting at us. While I was running
24 and getting away they shot at me. They opened fire at me.
25 Q. And so the persons that you describe as "our soldiers" did not
1 fire upon you?
2 A. No, no.
3 Q. And by "our soldiers," are you referring to Armija BiH soldiers?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. This other proceeding, without mentioning the name of it, were
6 you testifying in your own language?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, today in P1689, a list of corrections that the Prosecution
9 gave to us for your -- for your statement, in relation to this -- in
10 relation to these persons that you joined up with in the forest described
11 at paragraph 9 of your 92 ter statement, say that:
12 "The witness clarified that they did not wear uniforms, looked
13 exhausted and were hungry. He did not know whether they were BiH Army
14 members or civilians, but they were -- but that they were able-bodied
16 So I have to ask you now, sir: Did you believe them to be
17 Armija BiH soldiers as you testified in your own language in this other
18 proceeding, or did you not know them to be Armija BiH soldiers as has
19 been presented to us by the Prosecution in this case?
20 A. Well, yes, I didn't know that they were soldiers of the BiH Army,
21 because they didn't have a camouflage uniform, just like we didn't. They
22 were going hungry and thirsty, going through the woods like us, and maybe
23 these were just the men who were in the rear who then remained there, but
24 we didn't have anything to eat. That's all I know.
25 Q. Okay. If we can return to the document that's on our screens,
1 and it's -- it's on the same page in the English. It's on the B/C/S, the
2 bottom of the page and the top of the next. Starting at line 15 in the
3 English you were asked:
4 "... escape. Where did you next go? Did you go ... did you ...
5 I'll leave at that. Where did you next go when you escaped?
6 /inaudible/stick in your mind about what happened next?
7 "To the Burnice village. That's where I went.
8 "... there?
9 And you answered:
10 "There along the road I saw many bodies of those who had been
11 killed. I saw them all over the crop fields in Burnice village on my way
12 to Burnice, and when I reached Burnice I found many of our troops and the
13 civilians who had gathered in the Burnice village. We stayed in Burnice
14 in a house where we just laid down to rest. We were hungry. We were
15 tired. We were exhausted. We didn't know where to go from that point
16 onwards, because those were just logistics forces. We didn't know the
17 area, and we didn't know where to go to next. We had no food to eat, so
18 we just spent some time there. And then Serb soldiers attacked us,
19 attacked the village. They just surrounded the village without bullet
20 fired. They surrounded the village and took us prisoners."
21 Now, first I have to ask you: Is this account that I have read
22 back to you truthful and accurate as to these events at Burnice village?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Would you so testify the same way today under the obligations of
25 the solemn declaration if the same questions were asked?
1 A. Yes. As far as Burnice concerned, yes.
2 Q. And as far as Burnice is concerned, can we take from this that
3 the Serbs captured you and the others in the village without having fired
4 a single shot?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, if we can return briefly to your Rule 92 ter statement,
7 P1690 under seal and not broadcast the same, and if we can look at page 4
8 in the English and then in B/C/S it's page 3 at the very bottom. And
9 it's in relation to the paragraph 9, and in the B/C/S it's the very
10 last -- let me see. It's at the beginning of the paragraph, so it's
11 paragraph 9, which reads as follows, sir:
12 "I met up with some men from the Bosnian Army and joined with
13 them. We made our way to Burnice and Pobudje. Our group of ten arrived
14 at Burnice village where there were about 500 others. I stayed the night
15 there and spent the next day looking for food. At about 6.00 p.m. on
16 15 July [Realtime transcript read in error "June"] 1995 we were
17 surrounded by Serbs. The Serbs were firing ..., "and at this point we
18 have to go to the next page in B/C/S, "The Serbs were firing into the air
19 and squeezing the encirclement smaller and smaller. I tried to hide in
20 the attic of a house with two others but dogs found us there. The Serbs
21 were dressed with green military sweaters with black armbands with
22 Yugoslavia written on them. There were many dogs which were held back
23 with chains by the handlers who were dressed the same."
24 Now, could you explain for us, sir, you just told us that the
25 Serbs captured you without firing a single shot. So why does your
1 Rule 92 ter statement say that the Serbs were firing into the air?
2 A. Yes, they did capture some of us without a bullet being fired.
3 However, because the others would not surrender they opened fire, so that
4 even those who had been hiding in houses they were forced to get out of
5 the houses, come out.
6 Q. And how many days were you in Burnice? Is the recollection here
7 accurate that it was the 15th of June?
8 A. No. I can't recall the dates. This is an approximation as I've
9 already said. I can't recall the day or the date when this happened.
10 Q. And I apologise. I misspoke. I said "June," I meant to say
11 "July." Does that change your answer any, sir?
12 A. No.
13 Q. And you identified that the number of persons was 500, and today
14 you -- I think you indicated that the Serbs counted you in a garden after
15 you surrendered. Is that accurate?
16 A. Yes. Yes. We got that information from them. I didn't even
17 know how many of us there were, but until they said it, they said there
18 were 500 of us, and they were swearing at us, swearing our Balijas
19 mother, our -- 500 of us.
20 Q. Did you -- did you eat anything at all during the time period
21 that you were in the woods or that you were at Burnice village?
22 A. Yes. We ate snails and unripe apples. They were completely
23 unripe, green apples, and snails. Although I cannot remember all the
24 details, I know it was horrible to have to eat that, but we just had to.
25 Q. And was this second capture at Burnice also something that you
1 remember very vividly, that you had a strong sense of horror about?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Could you ever forget that second capture at Burnice village?
4 A. No. No.
5 Q. Now I'd like to look at the statement that you gave to the
6 Bosnian AID, Agency for Documentation and Investigation, in June of 1997
7 which was taken approximately a year after the ICTY statement.
8 MR. IVETIC: And could we please have 1D1095 in e-court and could
9 we please not broadcast the same. And there we see the date and the
10 entity it was given to, and can we please have the last page in both
12 Q. Sir, directing your attention to the B/C/S original on the left
13 side of the screen, do you see your signature there on the left?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And do you see above your signature the lines that say:
16 "I have nothing else to state. I listened to the statement being
17 dictated aloud to me. I also took part in its formulation, and I am
18 ready to repeat it before a Court, which I hereby confirm with my
20 Do you recall reading and understanding this before signing the
22 A. Yes. It's just that it's been many years since then, and you can
23 forget a lot of things since that time.
24 Q. Mm-hmm. And if we go to the -- first of all, am I -- can I
25 presume that this was conducted in -- in the B/C/S language, in the
1 Bosnian language, this interview and the taking of this statement by this
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. IVETIC: Now, if we could turn to the bottom -- pardon me, to
5 the middle of -- strike that. The second page in English, at the bottom,
6 and the middle of page 2 in the B/C/S original.
7 Q. And at the bottom of the page in English you talk about incident
8 that you just indicated at the fountain with the girl. We'll get back to
10 If we can move to the next page in the English, and at the top,
11 sir, I read for you as follows:
12 "I pulled myself together a bit and realised that I was not at
13 home but, rather, that the Chetniks had sent me to bring some water. I
14 immediately decided to run away. I threw away the rifle, crossed the
15 Kravicka Rijeka and started running towards the woods. They probably
16 heard or saw me running and started shooting in my direction. They did
17 not hit me, and I ran deep into the woods where I came across several
18 people I did not know. I wandered for another ten days through the woods
19 with those people --" I apologise. I don't know if there's
20 something ... may I continue?
21 JUDGE ORIE: You may continue.
22 MR. IVETIC:
23 Q. "... I ran deep into the woods where I came across several people
24 I did not know. I wandered for another ten days through the woods with
25 those people, coming across dead bodies of which I did not recognise any.
1 "On 22 July 1995 we crossed over to the free territory of
2 Kalesija municipality."
3 Now, sir, is this selection from your statement from 1997
4 truthful and accurate such that you would so testify again the same way
5 today if asked about these same events?
6 A. No. I don't remember that. All I know is that I threw away the
7 rifle, and when I saw that girl with her throat slit, I remember that,
8 and I know that I was looking for my house. I asked for some water. I
9 was completely lost from fear, and then my memory then came back what I
10 was looking for, what I was doing there, and then I started to run away.
11 Q. Okay. Let me -- let me focus on what you've said now. So is it
12 your testimony you still had the rifle with you and you through it away
13 when you saw the girl at the fountain?
14 A. I really don't know if I threw away the rifle or not. I was very
15 scared after I saw that girl who had just had her throat slashed. She
16 was still twitching. So I don't know if I had the rifle, if I threw it
17 away there. I really cannot remember this anymore.
18 Q. Okay. Now, the question I have for you is in relation to this
19 statement that you gave one year after the ICTY statement. This
20 statement has absolutely no reference to Burnice or the second time that
21 you say you were captured. Can you confirm that you did not tell this
22 agency, AID, about this second capture?
23 A. Yes. No one asked me, and I didn't speak about that.
24 Q. Well, sir, the document signed says, "I have nothing else to
25 state." Did you not, in fact, have the capture and the time you spend at
1 Burnice to talk about? Did you not remember it at the time?
2 A. No. They didn't ask me or question me anymore. They put
3 questions to me, and I replied and that's how it went.
4 MR. IVETIC: Okay. Your Honours, I would tender this document
5 which is 1D1095 under seal as the next available exhibit number.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1095 receives number D321,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And in the absence of any objections, is admitted
10 into evidence under seal.
11 Mr. Ivetic, could you give us an indication as to timing?
12 MR. IVETIC: At the start of my examination I intended to go 2.5
13 hours, perhaps two hours and forty minutes with this witness. I do not
14 know how much time we've already used up.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I will inquire with Madam Registrar, but could you
16 give us an indication as to how long you think you still need.
17 MR. IVETIC: I think based on my questions that I am on track to
18 complete the examination within that time period that I had -- that I had
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer ]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which would mean that most likely you would
22 not finish today. Is that -- could you see whether you could focus so
23 much on what seems to be most important and see whether you could try to
24 finish within the next session.
25 MR. IVETIC: I will try, but I don't think I can, Your Honour.
1 We have a Rule 92 ter statement that's been admitted into evidence for
2 which as we see every point that I'm raising --
3 JUDGE ORIE: I'm happy that you're willing to try, Mr. Ivetic.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. If we can turn to 65 ter number 29071,
6 page 21 in the English, page 28 in the B/C/S. And again we should not
7 broadcast the same.
8 Q. Here, sir, and it's the middle of the page in the B/C/S, you were
9 questioned about this exact same AID statement from 1997 and about the
10 time period that you stated therein that you were wandering through the
11 woods, and you state as follows -- first you say when you were asked from
12 defence counsel:
13 "Well, now I claim that on that occasion you didn't say literally
14 anything about escaping in front of that warehouse, being recaptured,
15 taken to Bratunac and then released after that.
16 "The witness: Well, yes. When I gave that statement they just
17 asked me questions and they did not ask me that question at all, and I
18 didn't tell them about it. And --"
19 Let me take it part by part. Do you confirm that to be truthful
20 and accurate, that part I've just read?
21 A. I don't remember that part at all.
22 Q. Okay. Then let me -- let me short-circuit it by just asking you
23 this part here. At the tail end of -- it's down at the end of the page,
24 you were asked about the time period that you spent in the woods, and you
1 "Maybe even ten days passed in the woods or eight days or five
2 days, and then I was captured in Burnice.
3 "Defence counsel: So you think that it's possible that this is
4 true and that after escaping in front of the warehouse you wandered ten
5 more days through the woods before you were captured?
6 "The witness: It's possible. I don't remember the exact day
7 whether I was captured today in Burnice or tomorrow or the day after
8 tomorrow. I can't remember that."
9 Do you still stand by this as being accurate and truthful as the
10 amount of time that passed between leaving Kravica and the capture in
12 A. Yes. I don't remember how long it was. Was it one day, two
13 days, five days? I really cannot remember.
14 Q. Okay. Then I'll move on.
15 MR. IVETIC: If we can have 1D1097 in e-court, and this also
16 should not be broadcast.
17 Q. And I think you'll see, sir, that this is another statement that
18 you gave to another entity, the SIPA police, known as the Bosnian State
19 Protection Investigative Agency, and is dated 2009. And if we look at
20 the first page of the original, is that your signature on this document?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And if we can turn to the second page of the document in both
23 languages. Item 2 is a confirmation that you understood the language
24 using the interview. Is that your signature affirming the same?
25 A. Yes. Yes.
1 Q. And if we skip ahead to page 3 in English and page 3 in the
2 B/C/S. We have the conditions at item 9 saying that you cannot withhold
3 any information. Item 10 states that you were cautioned about giving a
4 false statement being a crime punishable under the relevant statute. And
5 if we go to the next page, which is page 4. Is that -- is that your
6 signature affirming knowledge and acknowledging the foregoing cautions
7 having been given to you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I'd like to go through some parts of the statement with you.
10 Let's start with paragraph 4. I don't know if we can -- that's on both.
11 There we go.
12 It says here that you were 14 years old on 11 July 1995. Was
13 that the truth?
14 A. No. I was 16, but I had said that I was 14 when I was captured.
15 Q. Did you understand and appreciate that this document you were
16 preparing in 2009 with the SIPA was a legal document that you were giving
17 answers for?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, let's try to focus on the substance.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
21 Q. Am I correct that because you had previously given false
22 information about your age you felt you had to keep up the prior story to
23 be consistent, even though it was in fact false and untrue?
24 A. No. This was not false information. False information is not
25 the killing of innocent people that took place in Kravica. The rest can
1 just be just an omission due to the fact that I cannot remember. As for
2 what happened in Kravica, the killing of those people, the killing of the
3 people on the road, that is not a lie. No one can say that that is a
5 MR. IVETIC: If we can have number 29071 in e-court, and again
6 not broadcast the same, and page 34 of the same in English, page 47 in
7 B/C/S. It's at the middle of the page in B/C/S.
8 Q. And to try and short-circuit this, I will preface by saying
9 they're talking about the same statement given to SIPA, and I'll skip
10 ahead to the part where you were asked by Defence counsel:
11 "Defence counsel: What was the reason that you didn't also tell
12 investigator Muris Brkic the truth here about how old you were then?"
13 Here on page 4, in item 4, you say:
14 "I was 14 years old at the time."
15 "The witness: Well, I said 14 because I had given a statement
16 before and I thought let it stay 14 because I knew that I had said that I
17 was supposedly 14.
18 "Defence counsel: Yes, but you were warned that you must say the
20 "The witness: Yes.
21 "Defence counsel: Why didn't you say it then?
22 "The witness: And I said that I was 14, but I wasn't 14. I was
24 "Defence counsel: No. I'm asking you why you told Muris Brkic
25 then that you were 14 when it -- a simple calculation shows that you're
1 16. What was the reason then that you didn't say the truth about your
3 "The witness: There was nothing to hide there. It's possible
4 that there was a misunderstanding. That I didn't say --
5 "Defence counsel: You think that it's a misunderstanding?
6 "The witness: Nothing else. There was no reason to hide
8 Now, I want to ask you, sir, to clarify for us: Did you give an
9 incorrect age to the investigator of SIPA because you wanted it to be
10 consistent with the prior statement when you said it was 14 or because
11 you had a misunderstanding with the investigator? Which is it?
12 A. Yes. There was a misunderstanding with the investigator, because
13 I was saying that I was 14 when I was captured, because I had to. I
14 emphasise that I had to lie because they were separating children of 16
15 years of age and killing them. And that is why. I had to say that I was
16 14, and then most probably this is where the misunderstanding occurred.
17 I don't see any problem there.
18 Q. The part that I've just read out for you, is it truthful and
19 accurate as to the events --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, if you want to draw our attention to
21 this inconsistency with the previous statement and to the explanation
22 that the witness has given, that is clear to the Chamber by now, unless
23 there is any specific follow-up that you need to address instead of going
24 over the same ground.
25 MR. IVETIC: Agreed. Can I just ask one more question on this
1 before moving on to another topic?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
3 MR. IVETIC:
4 Q. Am I correct that the SIPA investigator that interviewed you in
5 this 2009 statement was speaking with you in your native language?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. IVETIC: Now if we look at the latter half of paragraph 4.
9 If we can -- I apologise. If we can back to 1D1097, and again not
10 broadcast the same to the public. It should be page 4 in both versions.
11 And again we're looking at the latter half of paragraph 4.
12 Q. I will omit names of individuals so as to protect you, but you
13 can follow along with me, sir. It's at the bottom half of paragraph 4
14 and it starts off:
15 "I heard from a soldier I knew that chemical agents were dropped
16 on us, and I saw when a helicopter leaned to one side and dropped blue
17 powder that fell on us. I did not know what this was, but my neighbour,"
18 and then you say his name, "who disappeared after the fall of Srebrenica,
19 told me to cover my face and eyes. I left the place later, but," and
20 then you mention the neighbour, "stayed behind and I never saw him again.
21 They dropped the powder several times."
22 Was this part of your statement to the SIPA investigator truthful
23 and accurate as to its depiction of these events?
24 A. No. I don't recall that statement. I tried the whole time to
25 clarify that, to clear it up, to remember it. I don't remember that at
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, the witness already testified, "Yes, I
3 was there, but I don't remember the war agents, but I do remember
4 everything else." So that he doesn't remember at this moment was already
5 clear from his previous portion of his evidence. If there's any
6 follow-up, please proceed.
7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
8 Q. I want to know about the helicopters. Did you in fact personally
9 see and eyewitness helicopters?
10 A. No, no. I don't remember. I cannot remember. I already tried.
11 I told you, I don't recall the helicopters or them dropping any of those
12 agents. As I said, I really did try to remember, but I just could not.
13 JUDGE ORIE: The witness earlier today testified:
14 "I don't remember the helicopters or anything like that. I don't
15 remember them flying over us. I tried to remember that, but really, I
17 Let's proceed.
18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. Now if we can have number 29070 in
19 e-court. And if we can have page 11 of the English and page 15 of the
20 B/C/S. It starts at line 25 in the English. It starts at line 4 in the
22 Q. And -- and in relation to this you were asked about this
23 incident, and you answered in -- it's either 2010 or 2011, I forgot now,
24 as follows:
25 "There were many people killed during the ambush, and the
1 helicopter was flying above us calling for surrender. They told us,
2 'Come out, surrender. We are carrying food.' And some people did come
3 out and they shot at them. I was with a neighbour of mine there on that
4 location, and he told me 'They're throwing some poisonous substances on
5 us,' and he said," and we should go to the next page in English, "'these
6 people are not from Tuzla. Those are the Serbs. Those are the enemies.'
7 So I listened to what my neighbour told me and I stayed put. I lay on
8 the ground."
9 Is this section that I've just read truthful and accurate as to
10 the events that are depicted therein, sir?
11 A. Well, no. I just told you I don't recall the helicopters. I
12 don't remember that at all. I only remember the ambush. I remember that
13 many people were killed in the ambush. That is something that I
14 remember. As for the helicopters, I cannot remember that because I tried
15 to remember that, but I really cannot. I'm sorry, I cannot.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, can I ask you the following question: It
17 was not that long ago that you gave those statements or gave that
18 testimony. It is, well, I would say quite important, helicopters,
19 chemical agents. Do you have any explanation as to why you have no
20 recollection today on these events, whereas not that long ago and long
21 after the events themselves you testified positive on those matters?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. The whole time in
23 order to be 100 per cent that it did happen, I tried to remember that, to
24 go over it, but please believe me, I cannot remember 100 per cent that
25 this happened, that this did occur there.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Did you not have similar doubts when you gave these
2 statements, which again is a number of years ago but not that many, or
3 did you have doubts already at that time as well?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. At that time I also had the
5 doubts when I talked about it. It was at -- perhaps it happened, think
6 about it a bit more. However, I could not remember. I should not have
7 given those statements. I should not have given the statements, because
8 I was not 100 per cent sure.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.
10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
11 Q. Now, we've been talking about the helicopters. I want to ask you
12 about this neighbour. Do you recall if, in fact, you were lying on the
13 ground and listening to what your neighbour described to you was
14 happening? Do you remember that part?
15 A. Yes. I only remember that we lay on the ground. We heard
16 shooting from all sides, so we all lay down. That's all I can remember,
17 nothing else. I just know that there was shooting all around us.
18 Q. Okay. So in your Rule 92 ter statement when you give us details
19 about things that were happening during the shooting, are those things
20 that you saw and eyewitnessed, or are those things that perhaps your
21 neighbour told you while you were lying on the ground?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan.
23 MS. HASAN: Sorry, it's just not clear what things are being
24 referred to here.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could you please be as precise as
1 possible in this respect.
2 MR. IVETIC: Yes. Paragraph 3 of the Rule 92 ter statement. I
3 can read it so we don't have to pull it up in e-court:
4 "During the night of 13 July, 1996," which was corrected from
5 1995, "we were ambushed. A beech tree was felled and them the ambush
6 started from all sides. All types of weapons were used: Rifles, bombs,
7 hand grenades, mines, and war agents. When we all dispersed I was
8 separated from my father and I did not see him again after that."
9 Then further found it talks about the helicopter -- told people
10 there was food for them and --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could we first try to go to the first
12 part, because the remaining part I think the witness has been clear about
14 All that what Mr. Ivetic has read to you a minute ago, that is
15 about the start of the ambush, the beech tree being felled, all types of
16 weapons were used, rifles, hand grenades, that you were with your father
17 and that you didn't see him after that, is there any of that where you
18 have any doubts as whether that is fully in accordance with what you
19 remember? So I'm not talking about the helicopters. I'm not talking
20 about the chemical agents, but weapons, beech tree, start of the ambush,
21 types of weapons, you being there with your father.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You confirm that that is the truth.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I was there with my father
25 when that happened, when this beech tree fell and when the shooting began
1 at the spot where we were.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan.
5 MS. HASAN: I'm sorry this wasn't pulled up for the witness and
6 the witness had in fact already answered that question and qualified the
7 reference to war agents. So I'm not -- Mr. Ivetic did read the entire
8 sentence, but in the follow-up --
9 JUDGE ORIE: I stopped him there, as a matter of fact, because
10 that seemed to be the portion where the witness, as far as I understood
11 him today, sticked very much to his story; whereas the following part
12 that he had already withdrawn -- withdrawn from that. So that's the
13 reason why I didn't want to mix it all up but to have it separate.
14 MS. HASAN: Thank you. I just wanted that to be clear.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: But when I say "please proceed," perhaps I should
18 have looked at the clock and announced that we will take a break.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break. Could we go into closed session in
21 order to allow the witness to leave the courtroom.
22 [Closed session]
11 Pages 13863-13864 redacted. Closed session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. I believe I have not yet tendered
14 1D1097, the 2009 statement to SIPA into evidence. I would do so at this
15 time under seal.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, no objections?
17 MS. HASAN: No objections.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1097 receives number D322,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: D322 is admitted into evidence under seal.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Witness, I'd like to take you back to Kravica warehouse. In your
24 statement you have now identified that ten people were executed in front
25 of the warehouse and one kid was wounded, and that is how the 1997
1 statement to AID, which is D321, says there was a group of seven to ten
2 captives that were shot. I'm not so concerned about this number. The
3 question I want to ask you, sir, is: In relation to this incident, did
4 you see one group? Is that accurate? Only one group in total that was
5 executed of either ten or seven to ten, depending on which statement
6 we're looking at?
7 A. Yes. The group that had been brought there. I don't know how
8 many men there were. There were some seven to ten. They were shot
9 immediately, executed immediately, and while I was still there and
10 present, they kept bringing people out of the hangar and executing them.
11 Q. That's what I wanted to ask you about because it's not in your
12 statement, it's not in your 1997 statement, but it appears in your 2009
13 statement which is now D322 at paragraph 8 of the same, and I'd like to
14 ask you what transpired between 1996, 1997, and 2009 that caused you to
15 all of a sudden remember that there were multiple groups of persons that
16 you saw being executed outside of Kravica warehouse?
17 A. Yes. I went and visited that place in Kravica, and thinking
18 about it and looking at all that I recalled all the events and every wall
19 where they took people out and shot them in front of those walls.
20 Q. And did that cause you to not remember that you saw multiple
21 groups of persons executed? Is that what you're trying to tell us?
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, did he say multiple groups or did he
23 say the one group and then people had being taken out of the warehouse
24 one by one and being executed?
25 MR. IVETIC: I apologise, Your Honour. Perhaps we should do it
1 in order. I'm trying to short-circuit for time but we should do it in
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand, but let's not mislead witness.
4 MR. IVETIC:
5 Q. Can I ask you, sir, to clarify for us. Did you see multiple
6 groups being taken out, or did you see additional people had been taken
7 out? Could you clarify for us? Give us as much detail as you can.
8 A. Yes. I saw that first group that had been brought there. It was
9 executed immediately, and after that they took people out of the hangar
10 in tens, in groups of ten or so approximately. Then they would line them
11 up against the wall and shoot them.
12 Q. And how many additional groups of ten persons did you eyewitness
13 being executed in front of the Kravica warehouse in addition to the one
14 group of ten which is contained in your Rule 92 ter statement?
15 A. I cannot remember precisely how many groups were taken out after
16 the wounding of (redacted). I was frightened and all of that, so I
17 wasn't really paying attention any more how many people were being
18 brought out from the hangar.
19 Q. In your 2009 statement to SIPA, which is now D322, you indicated
20 that you remembered at least three groups of about ten men were taken out
21 while you were there. Does that refresh your recollection or assist you
22 in terms of helping us out here to find out how many groups in addition
23 to the one group that you have testified to today were taken out and
24 executed at the Kravica warehouse while you were present and watching?
25 A. Yes. It could be two or three groups, but I really don't
1 remember. In my fright and the state that I was in, I cannot remember
2 exactly how many groups were executed there. All I know is that people
3 were being killed there, that people were being executed near the hangar.
4 They were placed against the wall and shot.
5 Q. And now the question I have for you is to go back to that point
6 where I asked you what transpired between 1996 and 2009 to cause you to
7 all of a sudden remember all these additional details?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan.
9 MS. HASAN: Counsel has the internal memorandum of an interview
10 that was conducted with the witness in 2003 with the OTP, and in that
11 interview the witness did mention people being taken out of the warehouse
12 and executed, and that predates the 2009 statement that's being referred
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, the Chamber is not aware of it, but if
15 it caused you to rephrase your question and want to further look at the
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was also going to say, Mr. Ivetic, you asked
18 that same question a few minutes ago and the witness said he visited the
20 MR. IVETIC: And that's what I wanted to find out, why he visited
21 that place. That's all. I was just trying to find that out,
22 Your Honour.
23 Q. When did you visit the location at Kravica when you said you
24 looked at the walls where these people were killed?
25 A. I was in Kravica recently. I was there recently. I visited that
1 place, so I did remember many of those things that happened there.
2 Q. When you say "recently," are we talking as far back as 2003 or
3 sometime after 2003?
4 A. I'm talking about this year, recently, perhaps I went a couple of
5 months ago.
6 Q. Did you have anything that happened prior to a couple of months
7 ago that caused you to remember these additional groups of persons taken
8 out from the hangar and executed that you've now confirmed that is
9 contained in your 2009 SIPA statement?
10 A. Yes. I saw some broadcasts once on television, and I could see
11 people going through the woods escaping. I saw the hangar, and I
12 remembered many things there, the things that I went through there. So
13 part of that whole story came back to me while I was there.
14 Q. And now this is where I have a -- where I'm confused truly.
15 Today you were presented this statement that only talked of one group.
16 You were presented with a set of clarifications and corrections which is
17 now P1689 under seal, which was supposed to correct anything that was
18 wrong or incomplete in the first statement, and you have no mention of
19 this additional -- of these additional groups that were taken out and
21 If you know this, if you believe it to be true, why did you not
22 raise it during the Prosecution's examination of you today?
23 A. I think that I did say that other than those ten people who were
24 executed, they kept taking people out of the hangar. I'm not sure about
25 the number of the groups, because I don't know how many groups were taken
2 Q. Is it your belief that you said that today to the Prosecution or
3 now to me when I was -- when I raised that issue with you?
4 A. I think that I told you that answer just now.
5 Q. I agree sir, and I confirmed that. Now, my question was: Why
6 did you not raise it with the Prosecution during their examination of you
7 today when they were talking about statement and any corrections to the
9 A. Perhaps I didn't understand the question in the best way.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I think the matter you have raised is at
11 least clear to the Chamber.
12 MR. IVETIC: If we can turn to 1D1096, and that also should not
13 be broadcast to the public.
14 Q. And you will see, sir, this is dated 2003, 13 November. It is an
15 internal memorandum of the Office of the Prosecutor relating to an
16 interview that they had with you. Do you recall having an interview with
17 members of the Prosecution staff in 2003, the month of November?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And it says here in the first paragraph to a large extent he
20 remembered and confirmed the content of his statement which he made when
21 he was 16 years of age.
22 I'd like to -- let's see if I can find it. In the fourth
23 paragraph from the top, you talk about -- well, strike that. This is
24 what is recorded there. I should read it since there is no B/C/S:
25 "There was a dead girl by the road. I walked round and round
1 her. I lost my mind there, and I fled into forest. Someone fired at me
2 but missed. I met a small group of BiH soldiers, and we went to Burnice
3 near Konjevic Polje and found the village was full of BiH soldiers.
4 There were about 500 of them. They had about 200 to 300 hunting weapons
5 between them. There were old and young people there. They very hungry
6 and were eating wild apples and other fruit."
7 Does this accurately comport truthfully to your recollections and
8 what you would have told the Prosecutors in November 2003 what actually
9 happened in Burnice?
10 A. I don't remember that. All I remember is that the girl was on
11 the lower part -- in the lower part of the hangar, and I went round and
12 round there. It could not have been above the road. I'm talking about
13 the water, where that water was, and that's where I fled from.
14 Q. Let me be more specific. Is it accurate that the 500 persons in
15 Burnice had 200 to 300 hunting weapons between them?
16 A. I don't know that. I gave an approximate figure. I'm not sure
17 about the number.
18 Q. That's fair enough. Now, the second paragraph from the top says
19 that -- this is again before you reached Kravica when you were separated
20 from the group, separated from your father. It says:
21 "I came close to Kravica. I think I was behind it. I found
22 wounded people there. I was with them for two days. Some of them were
23 committing suicide rather than waiting for the Chetniks to come.
24 Does this section that I've read comport truthfully and
25 accurately to your knowledge and recollection of the time period before
1 you came to Kravica when you were behind Kravica?
2 A. Yes. This happened in the woods.
3 Q. Okay. And --
4 A. It did happen that people were killing themselves, people who
5 were wounded, who could not walk by themselves, that they would do that.
6 This is something that I saw in the woods.
7 Q. Okay. And now I'd like to move to the second page of this
8 document and I'd like to present you the first two paragraphs, and since
9 I've not received the B/C/S of this, I'll have to read it for you and ask
10 you to following along, sir:
11 "All four of us boys were taken to the kitchen at the barracks in
12 Bratunac, and we were given pieces of meat to eat. I was afraid to eat,
13 they cursed us, and we were kept in a small dark room. There was someone
14 else in the room. I was afraid he was there to kill us. The man said he
15 had been arrested and would be exchanged."
16 Now, before I read the next part, sir, is it clear here that
17 we're talking about the time period when you would have been in Bratunac
18 after being captured the second time?
19 A. Yes. When we came to Bratunac, we were taken straight to the
20 kitchen and he cut off a piece of meat and he said, Eat. We said, We're
21 not hungry. Then he said, Go to sleep then, you Balijas. And then they
22 took us to a room somewhere over there and shut us in it.
23 Q. The next morning you were taken for interrogation. I believe you
24 mention that briefly in passing in direct examination. Do you recall
25 anything about the identity or the appearance of the individual who you
1 say examined you?
2 A. He was heavier, balding with brown hair, and he introduced
3 himself by saying, I am Mladic. Perhaps it was somebody else. I really
4 don't know.
5 Q. Okay. And that's what I want to ask you. I would like to read
6 this section to you from the document we have in front of us:
7 "In the morning we were taken for interrogation. First all four
8 of us went together when we were taken separately -- then we were taken
9 separately. We were taken to an office and Ratko Mladic was there with
10 four other soldiers. He asked if I knew who he was. I didn't and he
11 told me. He asked me where the BiH Army was and what the BiH Army was
12 eating in the forest. I told him they were eating snails, and he was
13 very -- he was angry with his soldiers. He said, Why can't you beat this
14 army? You have meals and they are eating snails. Ratko Mladic said that
15 he was not a child killer. I am sure it was Ratko Mladic, because he
16 introduced himself to us."
17 And I'd like to ask you, first of all, does this comport
18 truthfully and accurately to your recollection of the facts so that -- of
19 this -- of this encounter, this part I've read out to you from the
20 internal memorandum of the Prosecution?
21 A. Yes, he introduced himself as Ratko Mladic. I didn't know the
22 man. I don't know whether it was really Ratko Mladic or not.
23 Q. Was that on the same day that you were taken to be exchanged to
24 the free Muslim territory?
25 A. I don't remember whether that was on the same day or after we
1 spent the night. I cannot remember.
2 Q. Well, how many days did you spend in Bratunac before being put in
3 the white car that was marked UNPROFOR and being taken first to the
4 police station and then to the exchange?
5 A. I don't remember how many days we spent in Bratunac. I cannot
6 remember. We were frightened and all that. I couldn't remember. I
7 cannot remember those days.
8 Q. Is there any reason why this detail, this critical detail of an
9 encounter you claimed to have had with General Mladic was not mentioned
10 previously in any of your prior statements or any of your prior
11 testimonies and is only mentioned in this internal memorandum from 2003?
12 A. Yes. No one asked me about that. We did not talk about the
13 exchange anymore. All they asked me is where we came or where -- where
14 was the point where we reached the free territory. I said it was
15 Kalesija. I don't remember if anyone asked me whether it was
16 Ratko Mladic or not.
17 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
18 MR. IVETIC:
19 Q. Okay. Have you -- having now had the opportunity to be in this
20 courtroom with my client, can you state if you have ever met my client
21 who is in this courtroom prior to today's date in person?
22 A. I cannot confirm that. I cannot remember. It's been many years
23 since then. People change a lot.
24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would ask that this document be
25 introduced as the next exhibit number under seal.
1 JUDGE ORIE: No objections? Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1096 receives number D323,
3 Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask the witness to take off his earphones
5 for a second. Thank you.
6 Mr. Ivetic, just for my understanding you're tendering this
7 document mainly in view of inconsistency of statements or for the truth
8 of its content or -- it's not entirely clear to me what, because some
9 nice things are said about Mr. Mladic as well in the statement. So I'm
10 just wondering what -- what it is.
11 MR. IVETIC: Inconsistencies, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Beg your pardon?
13 MR. IVETIC: Inconsistency, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Inconsistency. Only inconsistent or also not
16 MR. IVETIC: That's for Your Honours to decide. I believe that
17 the testimony is not reliable --
18 JUDGE ORIE: That's the position -- yes. The position of the
19 Defence is that --
20 MR. IVETIC: -- put it that way.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- he was not interviewed by Mr. Mladic at that
22 point in time at that place.
23 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Let me then -- then the number,
25 Madam Registrar, has already been assigned. D323 is admitted into
1 evidence under seal.
2 Could the witness put his earphones on again.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. IVETIC: For the next series of questions I think we need to
5 go into private session to protect the identity of this witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
7 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
18 MR. IVETIC: If we can call up P1689 but not broadcast the same.
19 Q. And, sir, this is the corrections provided by yourself to the
20 Office of the Prosecutor to the statement that we have -- to the 92 ter
21 statement which we have introduced into evidence, and I want to look at
22 the last paragraph on the first page of both versions, both languages,
23 and that reads -- that's the part that is regarding paragraph 10 of your
24 statement, saying:
25 "Regarding the sentence reading, '... in the field were about 500
1 corpses lying all over it,' the witness stated that he may have mentioned
2 the figure of 500 at the time. He gave this statement as this was his
3 first impression. He did see a lot of bodies but not as many as 500."
4 Now, today I think you have said approximately 100, and whether
5 we're talking about a lot of bodies or 100 bodies, were they all in one
6 place or were they scattered out throughout several locations?
7 A. They were all over the field where we were brought. They were
8 killed all over the meadow.
9 Q. Am I correct that the bodies that you saw did not have their
10 hands tied in any way?
11 A. That I don't know. I'm not sure about that.
12 Q. And now in your Rule 92 ter statement you've talked about some
13 trenches. And can you tell me were these battle trenches? Were they
14 canals? What were they?
15 A. No. They were canals. Perhaps they were there from before. I
16 don't know if they were already there from having been dug out before.
17 All I know is that they were already there in the field.
18 Q. There were no machines or personnel digging them. Is that
20 A. Right. No, there were no people digging. We found the bodies
21 already in the field. They were already there when we got there.
22 MR. IVETIC: And I'd like to briefly look at 65 ter number 29070,
23 and again not broadcast the same. Page 23 in English, page 26 in the
24 B/C/S. And here you're being asked about -- it's at paragraph -- it's at
25 page -- line 21 in the B/C/S and line 15 in the English.
1 Q. You're being asked about the bodies in the field in this -- in
2 this testimony and your answer is recorded as follows:
3 "There were bodies that -- when you glance over the meadow, when
4 you look around yourself and you see a meadow and there were bodies
5 scattered on the meadow. So that's how I can put it, body here and a
6 body there."
7 And is that truthful and accurate as to your recollections of how
8 the bodies in the field were visible?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And --
11 A. Yes. There were bodies strewn on the meadow when we came. They
12 were not all in one heap. It seemed as though they were fleeing and were
13 killed. The bodies were scattered throughout.
14 Q. And when you say it seemed that they were fleeing and were
15 killed, would that mean that the bodies were individual bodies rather
16 than groups of bodies?
17 A. I can't give you the exact number, but there were people, bodies,
18 scattered through the meadow. Wherever you looked, there were bodies on
19 the ground.
20 MR. IVETIC: And now I'd like to take a look at 65 ter number
21 29071, and if we can have page 14 in the English but not broadcast the
22 same -- pardon me, not page 14. Page 29 in the English and page 42 in
23 the B/C/S. Actually, it's going to be page 43 in the B/C/S. And it's
24 going to actually be like the next page in English. I'm trying to
25 short-circuit most of this. The next page in English. And it's just
1 above the middle of the payment, the first quarter of the page that I am
2 going to be asking about.
3 Sir, in this -- I will read for you as follows how the testimony
4 is recorded:
5 "Defence counsel: Next you say that those bodies were in front
6 of 10 or 15 trenches, each 1 metre wide and 1 metre deep, half filled
7 with water and the trenches were dug here as you said. Does this refresh
8 your memory? Was it like that or were they in the road unclear as you
9 said today?
10 "The witness: Well, that is a meadow, yes. There were trenches
11 crossing the meadow, but how many trenches exactly, maybe I did say 10 or
12 15. Maybe I said three, you understand, because I know that there were
13 trenches where I was lying and in front of me and behind me that there
14 were three trenches.
15 "Defence counsel: Do you agree that what you said today differs
16 from what you said in 1996?
17 "The witness: It must be different. I am saying three or four
18 trenches today and there it says 10 trenches, 13."
19 Does this section that I've read out to you from the prior
20 testimony accurately and truthfully comport to our recollection of how
21 you testified in that trial?
22 A. No. I remember that there were some trenches dug out and that
23 there were people killed on the meadow, but other than that.
24 Q. And the trenches were by the road and there were three of them
25 that you recall? Is that how you testified in this case -- pardon me, in
1 that case?
2 A. I don't remember that. As I have said, not to repeat myself, I
3 just remember the trenches that had been dug out. It had been done
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, before we continue, I would like to ask
6 Ms. Hasan whether her position has changed in any way as far as
7 re-examination is concerned.
8 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, I have two very brief matters which
9 shouldn't take more than three to four minutes to cover.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I'm addressing you, Mr. Ivetic. Where
11 are we at this moment?
12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would like to tender the
13 documents -- I apologise. The documents 29070 and 29071 in their
15 JUDGE ORIE: It means the whole of the proceedings, is that or is
16 it --
17 MR. IVETIC: Only the witness's testimony. It's not the --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 29070 receives number D324,
20 Your Honours. And document 29071 receives number D325, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, you're not jumping up. May I take it
22 therefore that there's no objection. D324 and D325 are admitted under
24 Mr. Ivetic, I return to my question where we stand.
25 MR. IVETIC: I should be able to conclude in a matter of, let's
1 say, seven minutes. And I'll rely upon the --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Seven minutes plus -- I would then keep you to that.
3 That means you have until 2.35 and then you have another five minutes,
4 Ms. Hasan. And this is all possible due to the co-operation of all those
5 assisting us in and around the courtroom. Your seven minutes start now,
6 Mr. Ivetic.
7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. I'd like to call up D321. Which
8 hopefully should be 1D1095. Yes. If we can have page 2 in the English
9 and also page 2 in the B/C/S.
10 Q. And, sir, the part I'm referring to is the first full paragraph
11 in the B/C/S that says [B/C/S spoken]. And I'd like to read the English
12 and ask you some questions about it:
13 "After this the Chetniks ordered my group which numbered about 10
14 to 12 people to get up and they gave each one of us an automatic rifle
15 and two ammunition magazines and told us to go towards the centre of the
16 village of Kravica with the rifles, because Ejub Golic was allegedly
17 supposed to appear with his group and we were to open fire at them. We
18 walked down the asphalt road from the warehouse in a line and fanned out.
19 While the Chetniks, about 20 of them, walked behind us with their rifles
20 cocked telling us that they would kill us if we did not open fire on our
21 people. As we walked like that towards the centre of Kravica at a
22 distance of about 50 metres from the warehouse we were ordered to turn
23 right from the main asphalt road towards the woods where we stopped for a
24 rest. Then one Chetniks took out an empty plastic bottle."
25 And I'd like to ask you about that. First of all, is it correct
1 that 10 to 12 of you were given rifles and armed by the Bosnian Serbs at
3 A. Yes. We were given rifles in front of the hangar, but as far as
4 I remember, we went down towards the river, not far from the hangar. We
5 didn't stay there long and then returned back to the hangars.
6 Q. Okay. The question I have for you, sir, is, first of all, in the
7 two ammunition magazines that you were given, how many bullets? I
8 presume there were bullets. Were the guns loaded?
9 A. I didn't know whether the guns were loaded, whether they were
10 operational or not. That was my first encounter with weapons whatsoever.
11 Q. This statement that we have in front of us right now says that
12 immediately after you stopped at the forest to take a rest, that the one
13 soldier gave you an empty bottle to go fill it up with water, and so the
14 question I have for you is: Is this accurate that you were not at the
15 warehouse when you were given the bottle of water and told to go fill it
16 up but that you were, rather, at this other position taking a rest after
17 patrolling the territory looking for this Muslim unit?
18 A. No. We were by the hangars and I remember well that we went down
19 the road towards the river and then spent some time there, and once we
20 returned it is then that he gave us the bottle to fetch some water.
21 JUDGE ORIE: There's --
22 MR. IVETIC: I'm told the French a coming through.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You receive B/C/S again, Mr. Mladic? Let's proceed.
24 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
25 Q. Now, I want to talk about the girl that was at the water hose
1 with her throat slit. In your ICTY statement, you identify the girl as
2 being dead when you saw her, but in the trials in Bosnia, in one you say
3 the body was still shaking, and in the other one you say that in fact she
4 was still alive and breathing her last breath. Which of these is the
5 full truth, sir?
6 A. That is the full truth. When I came to that girl, she was
7 shaking. She was about to die but not dead yet, and upon seeing that I
8 started running away from the scene.
9 Q. With -- with regard to the rifle that you were given --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could I ask one question?
11 Mr. Witness, did you see that girl, her throat being slit by
12 someone, or did you just see her lying on the ground?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. When I came,
14 because I'd been sent to fetch water, she was there near the water, and
15 as I passed by, she was shaking. She was about to die. There was blood
16 all over her.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Did you see anyone near or close to her who would
18 have slit her throat?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't remember seeing
20 anybody close to her.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 MR. IVETIC:
23 Q. At the time that you and approximately ten other individuals were
24 armed with rifles that had two ammunition magazines each, was this the
25 same time outside of Kravica warehouse when you claim that groups of
1 persons were being taken out and being executed?
2 A. Yes. Yes. It was taking place there at the hangar.
3 Q. And is it your testimony that none of you of the 10 or 12 persons
4 that had rifles in their hands did anything to try to stop these persons
5 from taking out multiple groups of people and executing them?
6 A. Not while I was there.
7 Q. Okay.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I'm looking at the clock. We are now at
9 eight minutes.
10 MR. IVETIC: That's fine. I'm done.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You're done. Thank you for that.
12 Ms. Hasan, you needed a few minutes. Please proceed.
13 MS. HASAN: Could we please have D322 called up, and this is
14 under seal.
15 Re-examination by Ms. Hasan:
16 Q. Witness, you recall a discussion earlier today about whether or
17 not you gave an incorrect age to the investigator of SIPA, which is the
18 State Investigation and Prosecution Agency in the Ministry of Security in
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you recall that discussion, and you explained
20 there was a misunderstanding?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 MS. HASAN: Could we turn to page 2, please.
23 Q. And it reads under item 4, "You are obliged to give the following
24 information about yourself," and this is once the interview had already
25 began, and, Witness, there is information there about your name, your
1 parents' name, et cetera, et cetera. Did you provide this information
2 which included date of birth as recorded on that page?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Now, Witness, there are several individuals that you've
5 specifically named in your 1996 statement that we discussed earlier today
6 that you gave to the ICTY. You recall those individuals I'm talking
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you said these -- you saw these individuals at the meadow.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And that was the last time that you saw them?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you tell us when you saw these persons, were they alive at
14 the time or were they dead?
15 A. Yes. The people there were alive. If you have in mind the
16 people whose names I know.
17 Q. Yes. The ones --
18 MS. HASAN: Perhaps we can pull it up real quick to confirm.
19 P1690. This is also under seal. And if we could very quickly turn to
20 page 5, paragraph 13.
21 Q. Okay, Witness. You see the -- take a look at the first paragraph
22 that appears on your screen. You see the names that you mention there?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So are these the individuals that you've just confirmed were
25 alive when you last saw them at the meadow?
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. HASAN: I have no further questions.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
4 MR. IVETIC: Just one, Your Honour, arising from those two
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. IVETIC: We have 322 up on the screen. If we can go to
8 page 5 in both versions. Oh, I apologise. This is the statement. If we
9 can go to D322, page 5 in both versions, and focus on the end of
10 paragraph 7. And of course not broadcast the same since it's under seal.
11 Further cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
12 Q. You were asked about the misunderstanding as to the age from the
13 statement, and I want to point to the last line of this where you're
14 talking about the individual who was wounded, and you indicate that he
15 was a year younger than you and that he was 13.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. --
17 MS. HASAN: I'm sorry, I didn't ask him about the
18 misunderstanding. He already explained --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's not be over-formalistic. Mr. Ivetic,
20 you wanted to draw our attention to the fact that by referring to that
21 person as being one year younger and therefore being 13 that that would
22 also underline that the witness stated that he was 14 at the time. Is
23 that --
24 MR. IVETIC: Yes, and I was going to ask him if he could explain
25 that, but if you --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, could I briefly try.
2 You referred to the person wounded, the boy. You said he was a
3 year younger than you, so he was 13. There again, you suggest that you
4 were 14 at the time, but it's difficult to understand that as being
5 misunderstanding, because you -- you're saying it yourself.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He went to school with me. We were
7 in the same class. We had -- we were of equal age. If I lied about the
8 age, I said he was 13 and I was 14, I had to do that because I'd been
9 taken prisoner.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You said --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't say I was 16.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It was part of sticking to your own story --
13 to the old story that you were 14.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. It's been clarified.
16 Witness, this concludes your testimony in this court. I'd like
17 to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for answering all the
18 questions that were put to you by the parties and the Bench, and I wish
19 you a safe return home again.
20 We will -- after you've left the courtroom, once we're in closed
21 session, we will adjourn for the day and resume on Friday, the
22 5th of July, at 9.30 in the morning in this same Courtroom III, but we'll
23 then resume in open session, I take it, depending on any protective
24 measures which we have to verify.
25 Then we -- I would first like to thank all those who made it
1 possible to conclude the testimony of this witness today, that is
2 security, interpreters, transcribers, everyone who assisted in achieving
4 We turn into closed session.
5 [Closed session]
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.44 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Friday, the 5th day
14 of July, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.