1 Monday, 8 July 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 The Chamber was not informed of any preliminaries. Yes,
11 apparently there are preliminaries. Mr. Groome?
12 MR. GROOME: Good morning, Your Honours. Two brief procedural or
13 administrative matters, the first with respect to P1684, which is marked
14 for identification, a translation, an English translation has now been
15 uploaded into e-court. The Prosecution requests that it be attached to
16 the B/C/S original and admitted into evidence.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar is instructed to attach the English
18 translation to P1684 and P1684 is admitted into evidence.
19 Mr. Lukic, if there are any problems with the translation, you
20 may revisit that within the next 48 hours.
21 Next, Mr. Groome?
22 MR. GROOME: The second issue, Your Honour, relates to two 92 bis
23 motions, first, the 28th motion filed on the 23rd of May and the
24 29th motion filed on the 14th of June. Both time periods for response
25 has expired. The Prosecution maintains its original position that it
1 does not oppose any reasonable amount of time the Chamber deems necessary
2 to answer those motions but would ask that they -- a definite date be
3 fixed for a response. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic?
5 MR. LUKIC: We were kindly warned by my learned friend this
6 morning about this issue so if we can answer tomorrow, because I don't
7 have it in front of me.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Neither do I. So you have until tomorrow,
9 Mr. Lukic, to come up with a proposal for when, and then the Chamber will
10 consider whether it accepts it.
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No other matter?
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. We
14 are ready to go with General Skrbic, though I would request a caution for
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And he will give his evidence viva voce?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's the plan.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Lukic, I thought that you asked for three
19 hours, which is for a one-hour viva voce testimony rather long.
20 MR. LUKIC: It is. We'll finish this witness today for sure.
21 JUDGE ORIE: For sure, because usually for a viva voce witness,
22 the same amount of time or even a little bit less is appropriate. So
23 please keep that in the back of your mind.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Skrbic. The rules require that
3 you make a solemn declaration at the beginning of your testimony. The
4 text is now handed out to you. May I invite you to make that solemn
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: PETAR SKRBIC
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Skrbic. Please be seated.
11 Mr. Skrbic, you will first be examined by Mr. McCloskey.
12 Mr. McCloskey is counsel for the Prosecution. And you'll find him to
13 your right.
14 But before we do so, I'd like to inform you of the following.
15 Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence state that a witness,
16 that is you in this case, may object to making any statement which might
17 tend to incriminate yourself. We then could compel you to nevertheless
18 answer the question, but any testimony compelled in this way, if it comes
19 to that, shall not be used as evidence in a subsequent prosecution
20 against you. One exception, if you would not testify in accordance with
21 the truth, then that rule that it could not be held against you would not
22 apply. Is that clear to you?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand you completely, Judge.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then Mr. McCloskey will now start his
1 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:
2 Q. Good morning, General.
3 A. Good morning.
4 Q. Welcome back.
5 A. Thank you.
6 Q. Can you tell us your name, please, for the record?
7 A. My name is Petar Skrbic.
8 Q. And in July 1995, can you tell us your position?
9 A. The establishment position I occupied in July 1995 was called
10 assistant commander at the Main Staff for organisational, mobilisation
11 and personnel affairs.
12 Q. And you had recently been promoted to general that summer, had
13 you not?
14 A. By virtue of a decree of the President of Republika Srpska, dated
15 24 June 1995, I was promoted into Major General.
16 Q. And you're a career military officer that went through the ranks
17 in the former JNA, correct?
18 A. Yes, correct.
19 Q. And can you describe briefly for us when you came over to the VRS
20 and your positions leading up to your appointment as assistant commander
21 for organisation, mobilisation and personnel with the Main Staff?
22 A. I joined the Army of Republika Srpska on the 17th of December,
23 1993, and I was assigned to the position of assistant commander of the
24 2nd Krajina Corps of the VRS for morale, religious and legal affairs.
25 I discharged those duties until 24th July 1994.
1 Q. And where did you go 24 July 1994?
2 A. On the 24th of July, 1994, pursuant to an order of the commander
3 of the Main Staff of the VRS, I transferred to the Main Staff of the VRS.
4 Q. All right. Now I'd like you to be able to briefly describe to us
5 your position as assistant commander for organisation, mobilisation and
6 personnel, but first, can you tell us of those three segments what you
7 spent most of your time doing of those three? If, in fact, there was
9 A. In the sector that I headed, most of the time was spent on
10 personnel affairs.
11 Q. Can you give us a brief description of your job as assistant
12 commander for personnel? What did you -- what did you do?
13 A. Mr. McCloskey, I was not the only one who was handling these
14 affairs. It was the entire sector that I headed, and the personnel
15 affairs consisted of several important categories and these are:
16 Education of officers and NCOs of the VRS; assigning officers and NCOs in
17 the army as a whole; appointments of officers and NCOs; making proposals
18 for promotion; and retirement of the officers of the VRS once they meet
19 the requirements.
20 Q. Let me interrupt. Who did you make your proposals to?
21 A. With regard to all the affairs that I listed, I made proposals to
22 my superior commander, the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS.
23 Q. And can you describe for us a little bit about your duties
24 regarding mobilisation? Mobilisation of what, for example?
25 A. In the Serbian language, Your Honours, mobilisation has the
1 meaning, which I believe we share with Mr. McCloskey, of appealing to
2 civilians and businesses to provide assistance in terms of manpower and
3 resources. So in that sense, I listed the needs of the Main Staff of the
4 VRS in terms of mobilisation, manpower and material assets and made those
5 proposals to the Secretariat for Defence of Republika Srpska, which was
6 in charge of the mobilisation affairs that I headed.
7 Q. All right. And do you recall in prior testimony describing your
8 job as assistant commander and those of the other assistant commanders as
9 the Main Staff as experts in the implementation of General Mladic's
11 A. Yes, I recall that.
12 Q. And you've already mentioned that you made proposals to
13 General Mladic. Can you now just briefly tell us what you meant when you
14 say that you and the other assistants were experts in the implementation
15 of his orders?
16 A. Mr. McCloskey, there are two dimensions to the same process.
17 First of all, we make proposals to the commander, for instance, me in my
18 area, I make proposals regarding promotions, and then the commander
19 decides whether to agree with my proposal or not. If he agrees, and
20 gives a green light, then it is my responsibility to implement his order
21 in practice, with my professional skills. We write appropriate
22 enactments such as orders on promotion or we prepare decrees for the
23 president of the republic to promote officers into the highest rank,
24 which is general.
25 Q. All right. Let's go right to the 12 July 1995, which you have,
1 as you know, discussed before. And did you get a call that day to do a
2 particular -- to get a task going?
3 A. I have to tell you, Mr. McCloskey, that it was not on the
4 12th of July, if we mean the same task, the same issue. It was on the
5 11th. If you mean what you -- what I think you mean, namely
6 mobilisation, because we discussed this issue for a long time. That was
7 on the 11th of July.
8 Q. Thank you, General. That wasn't a test. That was my mix-up. So
9 the phone call that you've talked about many times, you received on the
10 11th of July. Can you tell us about that?
11 A. On the 11th of July, in the evening, or, rather, late at night,
12 I received a telephone call, and the collocutor, whose name I still can't
13 remember, informed me that buses need to be commandeered as soon as
14 possible or mobilised as we say in Serbian. I passed on this demand also
15 by telephone to the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska, and 10 to
16 15 minutes later, a person called Momcilo Kovacevic called me back.
17 Momcilo Kovacevic told me, General, I understood your request but
18 I kindly ask you to put this request in writing tomorrow so that we can
19 implement what you requested on behalf of the Main Staff. And that's
20 what I did.
21 Q. And you have in the past told us where this demand came from,
22 have you not?
23 A. Yes. That demand came from the operation centre located at
24 Crna Rijeka.
25 Q. And what person was behind that demand, as far as you knew? The
1 demand for buses.
2 A. I know that very well. It was the commander of the Main Staff of
3 the VRS.
4 Q. All right. Let's go to Exhibit 65 ter 04034. And as you just
5 testified, you were asked to get that writing on paper. I'm sorry that
6 this is not a great copy but they will blow it up for you. And we can
7 see that this is from your sector dated 12 July to the RS Ministry of
8 Defence, asking in the utmost urgency for at least 50 buses to be sent to
9 Bratunac. Is this the written order you -- or the written document that
10 you were just speaking of?
11 A. Yes, correct. That's the document.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 04034 receives number P1710,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: P1710 is admitted.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. And sir, was it your understanding that the MOD understood that
19 this was coming from someone besides just General Skrbic?
20 A. Mr. McCloskey, what was important there was the functional link.
21 General Skrbic perhaps did not play the most important part there. But
22 they know, you see the logo, Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
23 They know that it comes from the Main Staff and they took it very
24 seriously, as an imperative. They could have disregarded it but, in that
25 case, major complications would have resulted. So they understood this
1 document as very urgent and that's the way they acted upon it.
2 Q. And at the time, did you know what these buses were to be used
4 A. I was told that the buses were needed for evacuation.
5 Q. And what else did you know about evacuation, for who and from
6 where, if you know, or if you were told at the time?
7 A. Mr. McCloskey, everything is defined in the last sentence of this
8 document. If you need me to, I can read from it.
9 Q. General, I want to know at the time, on the 11th and 12th of
10 July, did you know who was going to be used -- who was going to be
11 evacuated in these buses?
12 A. No, I didn't know that.
13 Q. And did you know where these unknown persons were going to be
14 evacuated to?
15 A. No. At that time, I didn't know that either.
16 Q. At some point, did you find out who was evacuated and where they
17 were evacuated to?
18 A. That was 20-plus years later. Judges, Your Honours, I studied a
19 series of documents and now I know what those buses were used for. Your
20 question was did I know at that point in time, and I answered no.
21 Q. When did you know what these buses were used for?
22 A. I don't know how many days later, but when I saw on television, I
23 don't know which studio it was, maybe Bosnia-Herzegovina or Republika
24 Srpska, I heard that those buses had been used for the evacuation of
25 women and children. Later on, I found out that this video report was
1 made by a journalist called -- I can't remember his name now, it doesn't
2 matter -- who filmed it also for the Radio Television Serbia. Sorry.
3 Q. When did you learn from information from the VRS or the Main
4 Staff how these buses you helped mobilise were used?
5 A. I can't remember when that was.
6 Q. More than a week after the 12th?
7 A. I think, Mr. McCloskey, that it was around the 18th or the 19th
8 July, but I'm not quite sure.
9 Q. All right. Let's go to some of the other documents you've seen
10 before. Let's start with Exhibit 65 ter 04008. And we'll recall that
11 your document was to the MOD, and as this comes up, we'll see that this
12 is from the Secretariat of the Defence Ministry of Sarajevo, and it
13 refers to a request from the Main Staff and it gives that number, and
14 I think everyone will agree that that's the same number of your previous
15 order; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. And was this MOD document, is that a result of the -- your
18 document that we saw before?
19 A. Yes, that's right.
20 Q. And when, to your knowledge, were any buses from Sarajevo, the
21 Sarajevo area, when were those buses returned to the Sarajevo area of
22 Republika Srpska after their use here?
23 A. I am not familiar with that piece of information.
24 Q. And if prisoners were used -- were put in those buses and
25 transported from the Srebrenica area to the Sarajevo area, who would be
1 responsible for monitoring the movement of those prisoners from the
2 Drina Corps area to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps area? This is something
3 that you did answer before.
4 A. It wasn't only in terms of these buses but all buses used to that
5 end. In that respect, it was the task of the civilian traffic police and
6 the military police.
7 Q. Do you recall telling us it was the military police of the
8 65th Protection Regiment?
9 A. Yes. I do recall having told you that it was the 65th Protection
10 Motorised Regiment.
11 Q. And do you stand by that?
12 A. I do. Possibly parts of the military police of the Drina Corps
13 were engaged as well, but I am not aware of it.
14 Q. And who was the commander of the 65th Protection Regiment?
15 A. The commander of the 65th Protection Motorised Regiment was
16 Colonel Milomir Savcic.
17 Q. And who was his commander?
18 A. His commander was the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS.
19 Q. Okay. I would offer this --
20 A. General Ratko Mladic.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this document into evidence.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 04008 receives number P1711,
24 Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: P1711 is admitted.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we have Exhibit 65 ter 04010?
2 Q. And, General, we can see this is a similar document, just this
3 time from Zvornik. So is this like the other one, this came from your
4 order as we see the number down in this doc?
5 A. Yes, Mr. McCloskey, that is the case. I do have to point out an
6 imprecision here. At the top of the document, just before the number
7 02-21 and so on, it should also include the heading of the Ministry of
8 Defence of the RS. It should be just before the confidential number
9 02-21. It was the minister of defence sending this document to the
10 Secretariat of the Defence Ministry in Zvornik, that sent it. The next
11 indication is the signature. In the signature block we see Assistant
12 Minister Momcilo Kovacevic who is the same person we mentioned appearing
13 on the previous document. Let me conclude in a single sentence, then.
14 This document, which is authentic, was sent by the Ministry of Defence of
15 the RS to the Secretariat of the Defence Ministry in Zvornik. The
16 contents are authentic the way you quoted it.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put just one question for clarification,
18 Mr. Skrbic? You referred to the name of the person Momcilo Kovacevic but
19 can you recognise the signature in the original? Is that the signature
20 of Mr. Kovacevic or did somebody else sign on his behalf?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, this is not
22 Momcilo Kovacevic's signature. He was the assistant minister. Banduka
23 signed in his stead. I know him as well. I would like to draw your
24 attention to the small line -- yes, I see it in English, it says "for."
25 In other words, Mr. Banduka signed for the assistant minister,
1 Momcilo Kovacevic. And we see here R Banduka.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. And what's Mr. Banduka's first name?
5 A. Mr. McCloskey, as for the first name of this man, Banduka,
6 I can't recall it, but he's definitely not Rajko Banduka because
7 Rajko Banduka was not with the Ministry of Defence. He was with the
8 Main Staff of the VRS.
9 Q. And just briefly, Rajko Banduka of the Main Staff, what was his
11 A. Rajko Banduka had the duty of adjutant of the Main Staff
12 commander, General Mladic. Later on, in late 1995, we transferred him to
13 another duty in the office of the Main Staff commander. However, he
14 continued exercising the duty of adjutant to the commander of the
15 Main Staff as well.
16 Q. And what was General Mladic's nickname for him? If there was
18 A. As far as I recall, he did not have a nickname. We all called
19 him Rajko. That was his first name, not his nickname.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this document into evidence.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 04010 receives number P1712,
24 Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: P1712 is admitted.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: And could we have Exhibit 65 ter 25812.
2 Q. And I'm switching topics now, General. This is a document I know
3 you've seen before. It's a Drina Corps document which, as we can see,
4 it's 13 July, from the chief of personnel of the Drina Corps, entitled:
5 "The transfer of duties of corps commander." And we can see that it's
6 from Zivanovic to General Krstic.
7 Did this in fact happen as noted in this document, as far as you
8 know, a transfer of command from Zivanovic to Krstic?
9 A. Yes. There was a handover of duty, as stated in the document.
10 Q. And did you meet President Karadzic on the 14th of July, the next
11 day from this document?
12 A. Mr. McCloskey, I don't quite understand why you make this link
13 with the 13th. I was unaware of this document until I testified in the
14 Karadzic case, I think. It is when I realised that this document was
15 drafted before I went to see Mr. Karadzic, the president of the republic,
16 on the 14th of July, 1995, in order to have a decree issued.
17 Q. That was my point. So when you saw President Karadzic on the
18 14th, did you have anything to do with this -- the promotion of
19 General Krstic? Can you tell us what a decree is, in that regard?
20 A. Mr. McCloskey, you were probably mistaken in saying that
21 General Krstic was promoted. He had been promoted previously. The
22 decree had been prepared for the president to sign. The contents were as
23 followed: General Krstic is being appointed to the duty of commander of
24 the Drina Corps. Colonel Svetozar Andric is to be appointed the Chief of
1 Q. So my point is, just briefly, that the Main Staff was aware of
2 this promotion and you worked with President Karadzic to get it done
3 correctly; is that right?
4 A. The Main Staff was aware, but it did not occur through standard
5 procedure, that is to say, during a meeting of the collegium of
6 commanders of the Main Staff -- from the Main Staff. The proposal came
7 from the commander of the VRS Main Staff. When he told me to draft a
8 decree to be taken to the president, I could have told him, "General,
9 sir, did you have a good think about this?" But there was no reason for
10 me to do so. So I carried the decrees to the president and he signed
12 Q. Do you remember where you were when General Mladic told you this?
13 A. I was always at the rear command post in Han Pijesak. Apologies,
14 Your Honour. It's a problematic area but in any case, at the time, I was
15 in Han Pijesak, at the rear command post.
16 Q. Well, the Trial Chamber has heard about the command post at
17 Crna Rijeka, and can you tell us very briefly about this command post,
18 the rear one, in the town of Han Pijesak itself?
19 A. I will try to be brief in answering your question precisely,
20 because you seem to have mixed up some things. I apologise for that.
21 The basic command post of the Main Staff was in Crna Rijeka. The rear
22 command post of the Main Staff was in Han Pijesak. These two locations
23 are between three and five kilometres apart, although I can't recall
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, one of your previous questions was
1 whether the witness remembers where he was "when General Mladic told you
2 this." He told us where he was, but he has not confirmed that it was
3 there that General Mladic told him, by the way, what exactly. Could you
4 clarify that?
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
6 Q. General, can you tell us where General Mladic was when he told
7 you about the promotion of Krstic, where you were, and what
8 General Mladic said, as far as you can recall?
9 A. Your Honours, I have to apologise for this half question, if I
10 can put it that way. I understand Mr. McCloskey when he says
11 "promotion." In his mind it is someone being promoted to a higher
12 position, but in my parlance, it is simply promotion in terms of rank.
13 There is always this distinction in my mind. Krstic was not promoted to
14 a higher rank in the course of those few days. He was promoted --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could I stop you there. The issue is where
16 Mr. Mladic was when he told you about the new position of General Krstic.
17 And did he tell you?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember where he was,
19 Your Honour, whether at Crna Rijeka or somewhere else but I do know he
20 told me so. It is also possible that he told me that over the phone.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. And I would offer this
23 document into evidence.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 25812 receives number P1713,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: P1713 is admitted.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. And, General, to switch to another topic, in the Popovic case you
5 told us that Colonel Milos Djurdjic was an aide de camp to
6 General Mladic, is that correct? In the summer of 1995?
7 A. Mr. McCloskey, I don't think I said so. Milos Djurdjic was never
8 aide de camp to General Mladic.
9 Q. All right. Let's go into another subject, then.
10 Do you recall going to a new year's celebration for the new year
11 of 1996 with members of the Main Staff, including General Mladic?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. All right. And I know you've seen this before but I'd like to
14 show you a short clip of a speech General Mladic gave there. It should
15 be on P1147, and V009268. And it is starting at 21.53.1, and I hope to
16 show you just a part where General Mladic talks about his core people.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We have not been provided
18 with the transcript.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can merely read out the
22 "Ladies, dear guests, colleagues, officers, and generals" --
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry, Mr. President, if we can just let the
24 interpreters rest and just read the subtitles ourselves, I think that was
25 our policy.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I think that was an agreement about
2 subtitles, at least that the Chamber allowed them to be part of the
3 exhibit. Could we then restart and the only thing, Mr. McCloskey, if it
4 is not read, then of course, even if they are accurate, they are missing
5 on the transcript for those who would read them after us.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, this is part of the trial video
7 and the transcript, the agreed upon transcript, is now -- is in the
8 record, the full transcript of this so we should be covered.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we can proceed, and the interpreters do
10 not have to interpret the text. Could we restart?
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we -- Ms. Stewart can go right to the key part
12 so we should hopefully be able to finish before the break.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: So we are starting at the key part, 23.53.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay, and we're stopping at 24.51.2.
17 Q. And do you -- having lived this, do you agree with General Mladic
18 of the people he named as his core people, as the people that made the
20 A. One may conclude so on the basis of General Mladic's speech.
21 Q. My question was: You lived it. Do you agree with
22 General Mladic's assessment or was he embellishing a bit?
23 A. It was a celebration, so he did embellish it a bit. However, the
24 gist of it is true.
25 Q. And he spoke briefly about General Tolimir. Where did
1 General Tolimir fit in, as far as you know, in the trust of
2 General Mladic or lack thereof?
3 A. I rely on General Mladic's definition. In other words, he was a
4 part of the inner circle.
5 Q. Do you recall telling us at the Tolimir trial that he was one of
6 the most trusted people of General Mladic's?
7 A. Yes, that is correct. I do recall.
8 Q. General, thank you again for coming.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I have nothing further.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think the wisest thing to do now would be to
11 take a break. Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom. We
12 take a break of 20 minutes, Mr. Skrbic, and we would like to see you back
13 after the break. You may follow the usher.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you're ready, you may start your
22 Mr. Skrbic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic
23 is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
24 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I just want to inform you that I cut
25 short my questions.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And could I ask whether the next witness is ready?
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't believe so. I know that Mr. Vanderpuye
3 is speaking with him right now for the first time. He just got in from
4 the States so that would be a tough move. I've not spoken to
5 Mr. Vanderpuye yet, but I don't think so.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps he could organise it in such a way that we
7 go over the simple matters first and -- of course, the problem is that he
8 couldn't speak with him anymore once we have started hearing his
9 testimony. We'll see how it develops.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, General.
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. You know that I am Branko Lukic and that I am on the Defence team
17 of General Mladic.
18 When you came to the Main Staff of the VRS, did anyone tell you
19 that the second part of the command post of the Main Staff of the VRS was
20 in the vicinity of the main command post but because it was attacked in
21 1992 by Muslim forces from Zepa, it was moved to Han Pijesak and that's
22 why you were there?
23 A. Mr. Lukic, I was aware of that even before I came to the
24 Main Staff, because when I went to join the Army of Republika Srpska,
25 I went via Han Pijesak, and from then on to Drvar. At Han Pijesak an
1 officer, I can't remember who exactly, told me exactly what you've just
3 Q. Thank you. I will move from subject to subject quickly only in
4 the beginning. Today you've spoken about the Secretariat of the Ministry
5 of Defence. Is that a civilian or a military body in the system of
6 Republika Srpska in 1995?
7 A. Secretariats of the MOD all over Republika Srpska belonged to the
8 Ministry of Defence. The Ministry of Defence is a ministry, an organ, of
9 the government of Republika Srpska, and that's a civilian body.
10 Q. You have been shown P1712.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And I would like to see it again in
12 e-court briefly. I obviously wrote down the wrong number. This is not
13 the document we need.
14 Q. But even without the document I can ask you my question.
15 R Banduka was mentioned in one of the documents. Do you know that at
16 that time Rajko Banduka, ADC to General Mladic, was at the military
17 medical academy in Belgrade undergoing treatment?
18 A. I don't know that, Mr. Lukic.
19 Q. All right. We'll move to some general issues now to provide a
20 broader context for what I want to ask you. Is it true that in
21 Republika Srpska, general mobilisation was never declared during the war
22 in Bosnia?
23 A. The process of general mobilisation is linked to the category of
24 the state of war. The state of war was not proclaimed in the entire
25 territory of the republic until some date in October 1995.
1 Q. Just for the record, you said 20-something October, or perhaps
2 you don't know.
3 A. On the 20th or the 27th of October. I can't recall exactly.
4 Q. Towards the end of the war, right? At the time when
5 Republika Srpska was losing a lot of territory in the west?
6 A. Yes, correct. Because the war ended on 14 December 1995, after
7 the signing of the Dayton Accords.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could I seek clarification of one of the
9 previous answers? You asked whether in Republika Srpska general
10 mobilisation was never declared during the war in Bosnia.
11 Witness, you answered by saying that general mobilisation is
12 linked to the state of war and you said that was never proclaimed, which
13 does not yet answer the question about the mobilisation, or did you say
14 there was no state of war, therefore there was no mobilisation at all, or
15 was there a 99 per cent mobilisation? Or could you clarify what the
16 consequences were of no state of war having been declared? And in
17 factual terms rather than in theory.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there were partial
19 mobilisations carried out by corps commands and other units, but there
20 was no general mobilisation in Republika Srpska until October 1995.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, those partial mobilisations would be what
22 percentage approximately of what would have been a general mobilisation?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In terms of percentage, it varied
24 from 20 to 50 per cent. It was never 100 per cent mobilisation.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, 20 to 50 and not being 100 is far away from
1 each other. How many people who would be called upon by a general
2 mobilisation were finally called upon by such partial mobilisations?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under the Law on the Army of
4 Republika Srpska, all males between the ages of 18 to 60 were subject to
5 military duty, and that means mobilisation. Republika Srpska had
6 370.000 men fit for military service. 370.000 were never mobilised
7 because the army had, towards the end of the war, 209.000 members.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Which is, therefore, on average well beyond 50 per
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at the very beginning
11 of the war, when the Army of Republika Srpska was established, it already
12 had a certain amount of personnel. The reinforcement of the corps, the
13 manning level, was between 70, 75 per cent. The least strong one was the
14 one in Drvar Corps, and the highest manning levels was in the
15 Eastern Bosnia Corps, and that was the only one that was manned to about
16 92 per cent.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I was asking this question because when I asked you
18 about the partial mobilisation, you said it varied between 20 and
19 50 per cent, then you gave a figure of 209.000 on a totality of 370.000
20 men fit for military service. And that is, therefore, well beyond
21 50 per cent and not anything between 20 and 50 per cent. Are you
22 correcting yourself and say it was -- I mean, 50 per cent of 370.000 is
23 185.000 and there were far more than that so it was not between 20 and
24 50 per cent, if I follow you well.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, partial mobilisation
1 lasted from 1992 until 1995. It was also done because we suffered losses
2 and we had to summon new military conscripts to fill our units but we
3 never achieved 100 per cent mobilisation.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Q. You have already partially answered this question but I'd like to
7 put it in a legal framework. Is it correct that the corps had the right
8 to put requests to municipalities regarding mobilisation and
10 A. That is correct, except not to municipalities but secretariats of
11 defence within municipalities.
12 Q. Thank you for that correction. Was work obligation under the
13 competence of the army?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You mentioned who was supposed to secure the convoys and, among
16 others, you mentioned police forces, that is to say, not the military
17 police but civilian. The police, together with the army, comprised the
18 armed forces of the RS, correct?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. Under the law, police forces engaged in combat are under the
21 command of the army? Under the law, in combat, that's what I'm asking
22 you about.
23 A. According to the law, when there is a state of war, then the
24 police forces are commanded by the army.
25 Q. In practice, did it happen that police forces were under the
1 command of the army, or did it not happen, to your knowledge?
2 A. I am unaware of such practice. As far as I was informed, in
3 terms of combat, the police and army cooperated. They acted jointly.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, I would ask for another clarification.
5 You just asked the witness, this is page 24, line 5 and 5 through 7:
6 "You mentioned who were supposed to secure the convoys and, among
7 others, you mentioned police forces, that is to say, not the military
8 police but civilian."
9 Earlier, the witness was, during examination-in-chief, asked
10 about the buses, page 10, line 25 through page 11, line 2, he answered:
11 "It wasn't only in terms of these buses but all buses used to
12 that end. In that respect it was the task of the civilian traffic police
13 and the military police."
14 Therefore, I'm not quite sure if you are talking about the same
15 matter raised during examination-in-chief.
16 MR. LUKIC: I'm not excluding military police. I just wanted to
17 emphasise that he -- that the gentleman -- actually, general mentioned
18 civilian police and that I was asking only about that segment. I'm not
19 telling -- and I'm not challenging that there was military police in the
20 same operation at the same time.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that clarification.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Earlier, in your previous testimony in other cases, you were
24 asked about directive number 7 and the operation in Srebrenica. My
25 question for you today is this: Was there any discussion at the Main
1 Staff of the VRS concerning the planning of that operation?
2 A. No. Where I was present, the planning of that operation was not
3 discussed whatsoever.
4 Q. You also attended collegium meetings, correct? Was it discussed
5 at those meetings?
6 A. No.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness kindly
9 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please repeat your answer?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I said no, it was not
11 discussed at collegium meetings of the commander of the Main Staff.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. When the Main Staff commander is not present, who acts on his
15 behalf? I suppose you know that.
16 A. As per establishment, it is so defined that the Chief of Staff is
17 also deputy commander of the Main Staff. No particular documents are
18 necessary to further regulate that situation. In other words, when the
19 commander of the Main Staff is unable to attend to his tasks, he is
20 replaced by the Chief of Staff.
21 Q. How many deputies did the Main Staff commander have?
22 A. Only one, Mr. Lukic.
23 Q. And how many assistants did he have?
24 A. The Main Staff commander had six assistants.
25 Q. Would you agree that the role and position of General Milovanovic
1 was different to the position of the six assistant Main Staff commanders
2 [as interpreted]?
3 A. Mr. Lukic, I did not refer to General Milovanovic [Realtime
4 transcript read in error "Nicolai Milovanovic"] but General Manojlo
5 Milovanovic was at that position. Irrespective of who the person is in
6 that position, it is his duty to act as the deputy commander because that
7 person's competence is defined by his establishment post. The person in
8 that position during the war was General Manojlo Milovanovic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey?
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just a clarification and translation, it says
11 assistant Main Staff commanders, and if -- that should be assistant
12 commanders of the Main Staff, it's a significant difference. And also,
13 there is a -- it's Nicolai Milovanovic. I think that will get corrected
14 but --
15 JUDGE ORIE: It's an obvious mistake there. But for the first
16 one, Mr. Lukic, I don't know what language you used in your own -- in
17 B/C/S but --
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I said, in terms of
19 General Milovanovic, that -- the term I used is "deputy commander." As
20 for the other six persons, the term is "assistant commanders."
21 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you verify with the witness whether he
22 understood the question in that way.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Sir, did you understand me when referring to General Milovanovic
25 that I said he was a deputy Main Staff commander as opposed to the other
1 six persons whom I termed assistants to the Main Staff commander?
2 A. The duty of General Manojlo Milovanovic was as follows: The
3 Chief of Staff; at the same time deputy commander of the Main Staff.
4 Q. Thank you. When the Chief of Staff is not present, who decides
5 on the person who is supposed to replace him?
6 A. The Chief of Staff decides that. If he's to be absent for
7 objective reasons for a prolonged period, then he's replaced by the
8 second officer in command. In other words, it is the commander of the
9 Main Staff, and my sector drafts an order on that replacement.
10 Q. Perhaps not everything was caught in interpretation. You said an
11 order to act in his stead. Can you explain to us what it is?
12 A. Mr. Lukic, by virtue of that document it is regulated for what
13 period of time one person is to stand in for another. That role may not
14 be longer than six months.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, if I may just get some clarification.
16 Witness, at page 27, lines 17 to 20, you said in answer to the
17 question who decides on the person who is supposed to replace the Chief
18 of Staff, you said:
19 "The Chief of Staff decides that. If he is not -- if he is to be
20 absent for objective reasons for a prolonged period, then he's replaced
21 by the second officer in command. In other words, it is the commander of
22 the Main Staff ..."
23 I thought the commander of the Main Staff would be -- would not
24 be the second officer, would be the very first person. Isn't that so?
25 The commander of the Main Staff would be Mr. Mladic but he's not the
1 second officer. So when you say "the second officer in command ... in
2 other words the commander of the Main Staff," I'm getting a bit lost.
3 Can you clarify that?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise for
5 confusing you. What I said was if someone else is supposed to stand in
6 for the Chief of Staff, then it cannot be he who decides who will be
7 standing in. That is decided on by the commander of the Main Staff. He
8 defines the situation as follows. General Milovanovic will be
9 substituted by General Miletic. It wasn't General Mladic who was
10 supposed to soon in for another person.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: So it is also not the Chief of Staff who decides
12 that. It is General Mladic who decides that, the commander of the
13 Main Staff, who decides that?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much for the clarification. Thank
16 you, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour, but I will have to come back
18 to this issue.
19 Q. [Interpretation] When it needs to be decided who will stand in
20 for the Chief of Staff, who will be the first person to do so? Is it the
21 chief of the Main Staff or is it directly done by General Mladic?
22 A. Mr. Lukic, I discuss facts here. It is a fact that no one ever
23 stood in for Manojlo Milovanovic, because he was always in the territory
24 controlled by the VRS. There is no order in existence on anyone standing
25 in for General Milovanovic.
1 Q. Thank you. You testified about the following. It is whether in
2 practice you ever had an opportunity to find yourself in a situation
3 where a document is signed by President Karadzic, the document that was
4 supposed to be verified by the commander of the Main Staff, but that
5 President Karadzic signed such a document even though it had not been
6 reviewed by the commander of the Main Staff.
7 A. Mr. Lukic, even with the greatest of efforts, I don't understand
8 your question.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, before you clarify your question, you
10 started by saying, "You testified about the following ..." Were you
11 referring to previous testimony or were you --
12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, previous testimony.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think for the Chamber to be able to follow
14 the question, it would be good --
15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- what the testimony at that point in time was.
17 MR. LUKIC: I was not clear enough and I will correct myself.
18 I would like to call --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic apparently wants to consult with counsel
20 and he can do so but at non-audible volume.
21 [Defence counsel and Accused confer]
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I will proceed.
23 [Interpretation] I don't see the 65 ter number now. I'll find it
24 hopefully in another place. Just a moment.
25 Q. I need your testimony of 17 September 2007, which was a Monday.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Maybe 29059.
2 MR. LUKIC: That's why we don't have it. That's right, 29059,
3 that's why I was confused. And we need e-court page 62, which should
4 correspond to transcript page 15523.
5 And I will read from lines 18 to 23.
6 Q. [Interpretation] General, first of all, let me tell you that this
7 was a discussion about directive number 7, signed by the president, and I
8 will now quote the question.
9 [In English] "Q. And who is able to make corrections and return
10 the directive?
11 "A. Well, I suppose that the commander of the Main Staff of the
12 VRS had to review this document before the president signed it, but
13 sometimes the president signed even though the commander of the
14 Main Staff wasn't aware of it, and I don't know whether the commander of
15 the Main Staff reviewed this or not."
16 [Interpretation] So my previous question, which may have been
17 confusing when I put it first, was, did you know of cases when
18 President Karadzic signed documents that should have been previously
19 reviewed by the commander of the Main Staff but had not been?
20 A. No, Mr. Lukic. I was not aware of that, but I stand by my
21 statement, my evidence that I had given and you had just read in the
22 English language, and I would not change anything to it.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at 65 ter 14580?
25 Q. While we are waiting, this document has been shown to you before,
1 and I will not go into the detail that my colleagues at previous trials
2 had gone into, but it's a letter by President Karadzic that he sent to
3 General Milan Gvero, late Milan Gvero.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, there is no English translation of
5 this document. Actually there is but there is no document under it.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Microphone not activated] -- this number.
7 [Interpretation] I will just read out briefly and we won't go into the
8 essence of the document. I'm just showing you a document from which we
9 see that President Karadzic contacted General Gvero directly in his
10 letter of 18 December 1994.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we nevertheless see it on our screens, even if
12 it's only English version? Oh, let me see. Yes. Oh, it's -- I'm a bit
13 confused by your observation, Madam Registrar, that an English document
14 is there but --
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, there is only B/C/S version and
16 there is something uploaded as English translation but it's empty page.
17 MR. LUKIC: We will correct it and I will not deal with that
18 substance of this document at all at this moment.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you started already by asking a question. But
20 let's proceed for this moment, and if the Prosecution would know of an
21 English translation which can be produced quickly - I see Ms. Stewart is
22 working hard - then that would be highly appreciated. It is a document
23 apparently of the 18th of December, 1994.
24 MR. LUKIC: I'm just informed that we have the translation after
25 1D1 -- 1104, 1D1104.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Is it true that President Karadzic was able to
4 contact anyone on the Main Staff or any of the corps, as Supreme
6 A. Not only was he able to, but we see that he did it in practice.
7 That is not forbidden him anywhere in so many words. The president can
8 contact a soldier if he wants to, but to leave a trace of bypassing the
9 commander of the Main Staff and addressing an assistant commander of the
10 Main Staff of the commander is contrary to the system of competences, the
11 hierarchy. General Gvero should have informed General Mladic that he
12 received this document. In some previous trials, some evidence was shown
13 to me that General Gvero did that, but he still answered this letter,
14 I suppose with the approval of the commander of the Main Staff.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, it's very difficult to understand both
16 the testimony and the document if we do not know what happened before
17 this letter was sent.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour, I'll try to clarify them a
20 Q. [Interpretation] General, is it true that the relations between
21 President Karadzic and General Mladic, as well as the relations between
22 President Karadzic and General Gvero, at the moment of writing of this
23 letter were disrupted to a great extent?
24 A. They were disrupted, especially between General Gvero and the
25 president of the republic, Mr. Karadzic.
1 Q. Is it the case that President Karadzic had asked for the
2 dismissal of General Gvero?
3 A. That's correct, more than once.
4 Q. Is it true that President Karadzic also wanted General Tolimir
5 replaced, as well as Djukic, Lisica, Milutinovic, and even
6 General Ratko Mladic?
7 A. Mr. Lukic, you enumerated a lot of them. There was a particular
8 situation for each of these generals. MPs in the Assembly of
9 Republika Srpska asked for the replacement of Djukic, Lieutenant-Colonel
10 Milutinovic, General Gvero, but not General Ratko Mladic. However, the
11 president of the republic tried to replace General Ratko Mladic already
12 back in 1993. I wasn't there at the time but I heard that story. And
13 then he moved him to a different duty, which was advisor for defence at
14 the Office of the President of the Republic. Since that duty did not
15 exist according to establishment, we in the Main Staff understood that he
16 simply replaced General Mladic.
17 The president did not write a decree replacing any of these
18 generals and putting them on stand-by, but he spread the story around his
19 party and in his entourage that these generals need to be replaced.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question in this respect. Whose
21 competence was it to appoint or to replace a general? Was that not the
22 competence of the Supreme Commander, being the President of Republika
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct, Your Honour. That was
25 within the exclusive jurisdiction of the president of the republic.
1 JUDGE ORIE: So if you say that President Karadzic wanted to get
2 rid of many of these generals at one point in time, he could have just
3 have signed a decree saying that you are hereby dismissed from your
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exactly, but he did not do that.
6 He did not issue a document.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, he apparently was not determined to -- no
8 speaking at a level which can be understood by anyone else in this
10 I started my question. I said, apparently he was not determined
11 to dismiss them because, otherwise, he would have signed a decree to that
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely correct.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I think --
15 MR. LUKIC: I'll just consult briefly with my client.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and would you please tell him that he should
17 keep his volume down.
18 [Defence counsel and Accused confer]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we get a time frame, especially for that
21 last attempt, as he says, to fire Mladic? The time frame is key to all
22 these issues.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell us, Witness, when it was you
24 said that Mr. Karadzic wanted to have Mr. Mladic to be replaced?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I heard the story
1 that he wanted to replace him back in 1993, but I know for a fact that
2 the president wrote a decree replacing General Ratko Mladic on the
3 4th of August, 1995, and appointing him advisor for defence to the
4 president at the military Office of the President of the Republic.
5 JUDGE ORIE: But from whom did you learn that Mr. Karadzic wanted
6 to replace General Mladic in 1993? Do you have any basis for what you
7 heard, from whom did you hear it, why didn't it take effect?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that from General
9 Manojlo Milovanovic. He told me, Your Honours, that he did not want to
10 accept that duty, and that's why, in the opinion of General Milovanovic,
11 that replacement did not take effect. Those were the words of
12 General Milovanovic.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Who did not want to accept what duty, as you were
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Manojlo Milovanovic did not
16 want to accept the duty of the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Do you know - and if you don't, simply tell us that you don't
20 know - whether President Karadzic contacted General Krstic directly
21 concerning the planning of the Srebrenica operation?
22 A. I don't know that firsthand. I know that second hand, from the
23 book of Dr. Kosta Cavoski where he cited an example where
24 President Karadzic contacted General Krstic in Vlasenica and approved the
25 Srebrenica operation. I don't know if I may tell you, Your Honours, that
1 in my testimony in the Karadzic case, I confirmed that document because
2 Mr. Karadzic showed me that document.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, books written by whomever who played a
4 role, and I don't know who this author is, Dr. Kosta, but the Chamber
5 usually has some hesitation --
6 MR. LUKIC: I'll move on. I'll move on.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
8 MR. LUKIC: I asked if the general had his personal knowledge
9 about this.
10 JUDGE ORIE: He has no personal knowledge --
11 MR. LUKIC: He has no personal --
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- he just read it in a book.
13 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. When I say "please proceed," I'd
15 forgotten to look at the clock. We will take a break.
16 MR. LUKIC: I don't have much.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You don't have much after the break, how long?
18 MR. LUKIC: 15, 20 minutes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: 15, 20 minutes. Could we also hear after the break,
20 Mr. McCloskey, what your plans are as far as the next witness is
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, nothing as yet, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We will hear from you after the break.
24 The witness may be escorted out of the courtroom.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and we will resume at 10 minutes
2 past 12.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 11.51 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 12.13 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
6 Mr. McCloskey, as far as the next witness is concerned?
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I've been trying to find Mr. Vanderpuye. He's
8 working with the witness in some room, and someone --
9 JUDGE ORIE: I saw him in the corridor --
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Ah. Well, I hope he's [overlapping speakers] --
11 JUDGE ORIE: He's apparently not in a room but --
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. He should get my concern passing on your
13 concern, and so we can hear back from him, but I didn't contact him.
14 I wasn't able to.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I should have asked him but I refrained from doing
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, please continue.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. General, we are nearing the end of this examination. I only have
21 a few questions left. Let's look at another document.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P1710 on the
24 Q. While waiting for the document, I can tell you it is your
25 document with your typed signature of the 12th of July, 1995. From this
1 document of yours, as well as other documents that were shown today by
2 the Prosecution, which were sent by the Ministry of Defence or its
3 secretariat, we see that buses were sent to Bratunac. At that moment in
4 time, there was no one in Bratunac, out of the people that required
5 transportation. Do you know who rerouted the buses from Bratunac to
7 A. I don't know about that.
8 Q. We can see that many documents regarding the commandeering of the
9 buses remained. Did anyone ever tell you that it was supposed to be a
10 covert operation, that it was supposed to be secret?
11 A. No. No one ever told me that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you said, "We can see that many documents
13 regarding the commandeering of the buses remained." What did you refer
14 to exactly?
15 MR. LUKIC: That still they are available for -- there are
16 documents in regard of this mobilisation or commandeering of the buses.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We've seen until now three, isn't it, this morning?
18 We saw the request for mobilising 50 buses. We see then an order to send
19 at least 20 buses from several places. And then other buses to be sent
20 by Zvornik, I think. Is that all you refer to or --
21 MR. LUKIC: There are more documents, Drina Corps, there are
22 documents also from the list of the Prosecution but since they did not
23 use it, we do not intend to use those documents. Maybe that's why I was
24 talking about many documents.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the reason is we -- you put to the
1 witness that there are many documents remaining. I don't know whether
2 the witness is aware of it and you have not been very specific --
3 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not -- you could have asked that question
5 without that introduction and then the answer still stands, I think, so
6 let's proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And I'm sure that the
8 witness is aware of those documents since he testified about them in
9 other cases.
10 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is not aware of that.
11 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Sorry.
12 Q. [Interpretation] After this period, you went to Krajina, correct?
13 When did you go there and why? Briefly tell us, please.
14 A. Krajina, which is the western part of Republika Srpska, it is
15 where I went in early August 1995. Some Main Staff officers had gone
16 there even earlier, in late July that same year.
17 Q. When you arrived in Krajina, did you find General Mladic there?
18 A. Yes, exactly. I think it was at Kula. It is a location near
19 Mrkonjic Grad. Mrkonjic Grad is between 70 and 80 kilometres away from
20 Banja Luka.
21 Q. I am asking you this concerning your statement whereby you say
22 that at Main Staff collegium meetings there was no discussion of
23 Srebrenica. From today's point of view, it sounds rather odd, probably
24 from the point of view of the Chamber, and the Prosecution, and Defence.
25 In order for us to understand, kindly describe to us what kind of
1 situation you encountered in Krajina and what were you busy with there?
2 In a few sentences, please.
3 A. It was a difficult situation for the VRS, starting with
4 August 1994. However, the situation became the most difficult in late
5 July, and it lasted until the end of the war, that is to say, the
6 14th December 1995, when we were left completely isolated, meaning the
7 VRS and Republika Srpska. We had to oppose the offensive of Croatian
8 forces from Croatia which were in coalition with the Army of
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina and assisted by NATO aviation, in terms of full air
10 support. They all attacked Republika Srpska, and that is when we started
11 losing chunks of territory and the towns such as Glamoc, Drvar, Petrovac,
12 Jajce, Kljuc, Sanski Most. There was a danger of losing Prijedor and
13 Novi Grad. In addition, refugees presented a large problem. They had
14 come from the territory of Croatia, as well as those refugees from all of
15 the towns I mentioned, which were in Republika Srpska. In brief, the
16 problem was in the refugees occupying all roads where the army could
17 conduct manoeuvres. Thus, we were rendered incapable of manoeuvring our
18 units in order to place them in a position to offer at least some kind of
19 resistance. As you know, the problem was resolved in a very negative way
20 for the VRS and Republika Srpska. In addition to the refugees, we had
21 suffered a lot of casualties, in terms of manpower, and we lost
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness or Mr. Lukic, I fail to see the connection
24 between what happened in the Krajina and not discussing the Srebrenica
25 operation in the collegium. That's totally unclear to me. Could you
1 further clarify or could you put more specific questions to the witness,
2 Mr. Lukic? But if the witness is able to establish a link between the
3 two, we would like to hear.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood your question,
5 Your Honour. May I answer?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because of the enormous problems
8 and tasks that we had to deal with in the western part of the RS, we
9 simply had no time to discuss Srebrenica. There was simply no time.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You said there was no time, although it was an
11 operation of considerable magnitude. Nevertheless, you find no time to
12 discuss it? Or concentrated in that area rather than in the Krajina, but
13 you were with your mind in the Krajina but the operation without any
14 discussion was developing near Srebrenica?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Following the 20th of July, 1995,
16 there was simply no time for us to discuss it.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No. But perhaps prior to that date, before the
18 operation started? During the operation?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said that I did not
20 attend such meetings where Srebrenica would be discussed.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So it may well have been discussed in the collegium
22 but in your absence?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not exclude that possibility.
24 JUDGE ORIE: How many collegium meetings you did not attend?
25 Well, let's say from mid-June to mid-July.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I always attended such collegium
2 meetings when promotions, appointments and deployment of officers was
3 discussed, but at such meetings, Srebrenica was not discussed.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. General Skrbic, is it correct, and to the best of your
7 recollection, that in the Main Staff of the VRS, the operation in
8 Srebrenica was not planned or discussed, prior to its implementation?
9 A. According to what I subsequently learned, that was a Drina Corps
10 operation. It was not a Main Staff of the VRS operation.
11 Q. This is where I'd like to conclude. General, thank you for
12 answering our questions.
13 A. Thank you as well.
14 Questioned by the Court:
15 JUDGE ORIE: Before I give an opportunity to Mr. McCloskey to put
16 some further questions to you, you said to your knowledge the operation
17 in Srebrenica was not planned or discussed in the Main Staff, it was all
18 the Drina Corps. Now, why did you then ask for 50 buses to be mobilised
19 if it -- I do understand that this came directly from the Main Staff.
20 A. Not directly from the Main Staff, but the commander of the Main
21 Staff, General Ratko Mladic. I was aware that this order emanated from
22 him. Those buses had never been planned in that operation. And
23 subsequently, when I read some documents about Krivaja 95, I never found
24 a reference to it. The buses were commandeered on the 12th of July 1995.
25 They were not part of any plan.
1 JUDGE ORIE: But they became part of a plan on the 11th of July,
2 when you were asked, not by the Drina Corps but by the commander of the
3 Main Staff, or at least within Main Staff circles, to provide such buses.
4 A. Correct. They became part of that plan. But it's also true that
5 the Drina Corps issued an order, which hasn't been shown to you but I
6 know it, stipulated that their own buses, buses that they owned, be used
7 for that purpose. They were as per establishment part of the
8 Drina Corps, these buses.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, through the Main Staff, at least
10 another 50 buses were asked for, not by the Drina Corps but through the
11 Main Staff. Do you have any explanation for that?
12 A. That is correct. The Main Staff did that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you asked for those buses and they should
14 go to the Bratunac sports stadium. Did you have any idea what would
15 happen when those buses would have arrived at the Bratunac sports
17 A. No, Your Honour, I had no idea.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So you sent buses to a certain place and then
19 without any knowledge as whether they would stand there for 14 days
20 waiting for further instructions by whomever?
21 A. It is not I who sent them. The Ministry of Defence sent them.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You asked that they would be sent to the Bratunac
23 sports stadium, and that is exactly what the minister of defence then
24 told them to do. What, again, would, in view of you, happen when they
25 arrived there? Who would receive them? Who would give further
2 A. I don't know who received, them but somebody was probably in
3 charge of receiving them and telling them what to do.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you sent -- ask you for 50 buses to be
5 sent without any knowledge on who would receive them and tell them what
6 to do, so if no one would have been there, the buses would have stood
8 A. No, Your Honour. It was not my responsibility to direct the
9 buses. That was the job of the traffic police and the military police.
10 They directed the buses. My competence ceased after writing the request
11 to the Ministry of Defence.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I understood your evidence to be that the
13 police would escort the buses. Now, if you are escorting a convoy of
14 buses, someone must have decided on where they should be escorted to, or
15 was it the military police who knew where they had to go and what to do,
16 whom to load?
17 A. They knew on which road the buses should drive, and they took
18 them - I suppose they took them - to the stadium at Bratunac. The
19 military police had the responsibility to provide safe passage for the
20 buses because there was the danger they might be attacked by Muslim
21 forces, and the traffic police directed them along which route to go.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Would the traffic police tell them where to go?
23 Would that be a decision for the traffic police?
24 A. No. The traffic police only received a route in order to be able
25 to guide them in cooperation with the military police.
1 JUDGE ORIE: From whom would they receive the route?
2 A. I wouldn't know that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So you asked for sending 50 buses without knowing in
4 any way what they would be used for, where to go, who would give the
5 instructions; the only thing you would know is that the police would
6 escort for safety purposes? That's why you were asking 50 buses for?
7 A. Up to the stadium in Bratunac, I said clearly in my request to
8 the ministry, and they knew where this route leads. From Sarajevo,
9 Zvornik, Bijeljina, they sent buses to the stadium at Bratunac.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not interested that much in the route from
11 Sarajevo to Bratunac but in any route on from Bratunac. Who would tell
12 them where to go, who would tell them to go to Potocari and either to
13 load men -- women and children or to load military-able men?
14 A. I don't know that, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That sounds rather naive. Would you agree with me
16 that asking for 50 buses, not knowing anything further, may sound a bit
18 A. It may sound naive to you, Your Honour, but I didn't have that
19 problem. What mattered to me was the location where the buses should
20 arrive, and that was enough. I suppose somebody must have been there to
21 tell them what to do. Now, who told them, I can only guess.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And if not, you would have ordered 50 buses for
23 nothing. Is that how I have to understand your testimony?
24 A. 50 buses for nothing was not possible.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you didn't know by whom they were received and
1 what further instructions would be given. You had no clue. So if no one
2 would have been there, the buses would have been gone there for nothing.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your answer?
5 A. If you assume that, then they would have gone there for nothing.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Did you have any reason to assume anything else
7 apart from a vague kind of someone will be there, someone will give
9 A. The formulation that I put in the document was enough for me,
10 namely, evacuation.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Where does it say "evacuation" in the document? It
12 doesn't say anything about evacuation, does it?
13 A. I'm sorry, it doesn't.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Why didn't you write the purpose in the letter?
15 A. Well, I can't remember why I didn't put it there.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Evacuation from whom, from where?
17 A. We often used buses to transport the personnel of the VRS, and we
18 also used buses to transport population. Now, I learned later what these
19 particular buses were used for, but at that moment, I didn't know it.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Now, it was your special task to figure out how much
21 mobilisation you would need, 50 buses equals 2500 people, approximately?
22 50 persons on a bus?
23 A. Your Honours, it was not my job to make estimates, how many buses
24 need to be commandeered. I was told that exactly 50 buses were needed.
25 JUDGE ORIE: By whom was this told to you?
1 A. The officer who told me, over the phone, the task issued by the
2 commander of the Main Staff of the VRS, General Mladic.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you possibly consider 2500 of your own men to
4 have to be transported at that point in time at that place?
5 A. No way.
6 JUDGE ORIE: So what you earlier said about transportation of
7 troops, for which you might need buses, that certainly would not apply,
8 if I understand you well.
9 A. No. That was not the case.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So by 11 July, it was clear that approximately
11 2.500 people had to be transported, when you received that telephone
13 A. What is the question? I didn't understand. It's true that I got
14 that telephone call on the 11 July.
15 JUDGE ORIE: So by the 11th of July, the need for the
16 transportation of approximately 2500 people was known within the
17 Main Staff?
18 A. The number was not mentioned, only the number of buses was
19 mentioned, 50.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And could that mean anything else than
21 50 times -- well, 45 or 50? Isn't it true that approximately 50 persons
22 fit into a bus?
23 A. How much would that be? I would need to do the sums. You said
24 correctly, 2.500 people can fit in, but I didn't do the math. An
25 infantry brigade numbers 2500 people. A Light Infantry Brigade is 1500
1 people. There were several brigades there from the Drina Corps. That
2 could have occurred to me as an estimate, but I did not go into
3 estimating why these buses were needed.
4 JUDGE ORIE: A minute ago, you told me that it was inconceivable
5 at that point in time that you would need transportation for
6 2.500 troops. So therefore I do not understand why you're now referring
7 to troops, when you said that was not a possibility at that time.
8 A. That is correct. Only now did it occur to me how many men make
9 an infantry brigade, and that's why I told you that, so you have an idea
10 how many men an infantry brigade has. An infantry brigade has 2500 men.
11 The 1st Zvornik --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you. There you told us a minute ago
13 that it was not troops or brigades that had to be transported. So
14 therefore the comparison is useless. I'm talking about 2500 persons.
15 At this moment, I have no further questions for you.
16 Mr. McCloskey, any -- yes, Judge Fluegge has one or more
17 questions for you.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm sorry, just on the same topic. During the
19 examination by the Presiding Judge, you used the term "evacuation" and
20 then were you surprised that this term doesn't appear in your request
21 signed by you of the 12th of July, 1995. Earlier this morning, you used
22 the term "evacuation" as well. That is on page 9 at the end, just a
23 moment, page 8, last line, you were asked by Mr. McCloskey:
24 "And at the time, did you know what these buses were to be used
1 Your answer was:
2 "I was told that the buses were needed for evacuation."
3 That was your first answer. Then you gave different answers,
4 that you -- some days later -- learned that they were used for
5 transportation of women and children. And then you referred to studies
6 of documents some 20 years later. You were told the purpose of
7 requesting 50 buses were for evacuation. That was your first answer this
8 morning. What kind of evacuation did have you in mind?
9 A. Evacuation implies an evacuation of the population. That's what
10 I had in mind, and I stand by the term "evacuation."
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did you have information that the population was
12 gathered at the football stadium at that point in time?
13 A. At that point in time, no.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But you specifically asked for 50 buses to be
15 sent to the sports stadium in Bratunac.
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No further questions.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Before I give an opportunity to Mr. McCloskey, one
19 other question is why would the civilian population, the women and the
20 children, why would they have to be evacuated? They were living there.
21 What was the military need to evacuate them?
22 A. Your Honours, beginning with 1992, and until the end of 1995,
23 there were movements of populations throughout the Republika Srpska.
24 Every part of the territory affected by combat saw its population
25 evacuated. Only refugees from Croatia and the western part of Bosnia,
1 or, rather, Republika Srpska, did not use buses. Instead they used
2 tractors, trucks, horse-drawn carts, et cetera. They even walked.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So was it intended, then, that the civilian
4 population would move out?
5 A. I cannot answer that question. I don't know about intention.
6 JUDGE ORIE: But why request 50 buses to be mobilised if there is
7 no intention to evacuate, as you said, the women and the children?
8 A. Not the women and children. Evacuation, full stop. It's
9 possible to evacuate population regardless of nationality, ethnicity.
10 The Serbian population could be evacuated on these buses too because
11 there was combat around. The population of my native place, Glamoc,
12 fled. Nobody evacuated them. They went, escaped in a totally
13 disorganised way, ran to forests. They fled before NATO bombs.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Now, the Chamber received evidence that the
15 population of the enclaves at that point in time was, if not exclusively,
16 almost exclusively non-Serb. So therefore my question then again is:
17 You more or less implied as a suggestion that it could be Serbs to be
18 evacuated, but the civilian population in that area to be evacuated
19 apparently were non-Serbs.
20 A. No, sir. No, Your Honour. I didn't say Serbs. I said Serbs too
21 could be evacuated. Kravica, Skelani, et cetera. Many other places
22 around populated by Serbs.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Are you suggesting that the 50 buses were needed not
24 to evacuate the civilian population or whatever other population from the
25 enclaves, but that they were requested in order to evacuate the Serbs
1 from surrounding villages from Srebrenica? Is that what you're
2 suggesting in your answer?
3 A. No, Your Honour. That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm just
4 saying there was a possibility.
5 JUDGE ORIE: But there were almost no Serbs living in the
6 enclaves, so if it's not the people around the enclaves, you said, well,
7 also Serbs, but there were hardly, if any, any Serbs in the enclaves. At
8 least that is evidence. The Chamber has not determined that, but until
9 now the evidence suggests strongly that there were hardly any Serbs in
10 the enclaves.
11 A. Your Honours, you're quite right. According to the census, from
12 1991, in Srebrenica there were 1400 Serbs as opposed to 3.400 Muslims and
13 146 Croats. Now, those 1400 Serbs, I really don't know where they are.
14 They were not in Srebrenica because Srebrenica had been cleansed from
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so there were no Serbs to be evacuated, if
17 I understand your testimony well, from the enclaves.
18 A. Your understanding is correct, Your Honour, there were none.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, in the Main Staff, there were -- there
20 was an awareness of a need for 50 buses for evacuation?
21 A. Yes, correct.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, do you have any further questions in
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Very briefly.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
2 Q. General, we see this document. It also says that the buses need
3 to be sent to Bratunac by a certain time, they thought it was 1430 hours,
4 on the 12th. So if those buses don't get to the stadium by the 12th or
5 to Bratunac, the call would be to you, where were they, wouldn't it?
6 A. That was not my responsibility. I would have probably, because
7 you are also talking in assumptions, I would have probably received a new
8 request to commandeer buses if those buses did not arrive.
9 Q. All right. Let's -- you've also spoken of the Drina Corps and
10 the Drina Corps getting their own buses and so I'd like to show you a
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: 65 ter 04143.
13 Q. And we can see that this is from the command of the Drina Corps
14 on 12 July, and the stamp we see 12 July at 1000 hours on one of the
15 segments. And we see that it's to the VRS Main Staff, command post. We
16 know where that is. We also see to the rear command post for
17 information. That's where you are, right?
18 A. Yes, correct, that's where I was, at the rear command post.
19 Q. And you had the responsibility to implement General Mladic's
20 orders for buses, correct, see to it that it was implemented?
21 A. The person at the Ministry of Defence, as you've seen in some
22 documents, Mr. McCloskey, made secretariats responsible for informing
23 them immediately about the execution of their task, and as a good
24 colleague, that person called me and said, "General, the buses had been
1 Q. So you were monitoring and -- Mladic's order?
2 A. That's right. Up until the moment of commandeering. That is
3 when my task ends.
4 Q. And we see here that it says, pursuant to the VRS GS commander's
5 order to provide 50 buses for evacuation from the Srebrenica enclave, and
6 then they ask for fuel. So is this -- this is Mladic again, same order
7 for 50 buses, or a different one, as far as you know?
8 A. It doesn't say what kind of order it is, whether it was oral or
9 written. It just says pursuant to the order. It means that the
10 Drina Corps command and the commander were familiar with General Mladic
11 issuing such an order.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But it's all connected,
14 Mr. McCloskey. Buses need fuel.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, it's all connected. Could -- I would offer
16 this into evidence, please.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 04143 receives number P1714,
19 Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. It is admitted into
22 MR. McCLOSKEY:
23 Q. General, I won't go into this. You've just referred briefly to
24 the Serbs being run out of Knin, Glamoc, Grahovo, and I think you've said
25 previously that that was a crime. Are you having trouble acknowledging
1 you were involved in the bussing of the Muslims out of Srebrenica because
2 you know that was a crime as well? You have the right to remain silent.
3 A. Your Honour, I'd like to remain silent in terms of this question,
4 if possible.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. McCloskey, the witness has no right to
6 remain silent but can he invoke his right not incriminate himself which
7 is not exactly the same, but the Chamber will --
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will not compel to you answer the
11 Please, Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I would not insist and
13 I have nothing further.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Lukic?
15 MR. LUKIC: I will have a brief one on this document as well.
16 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] General, we have before us the document. In the
18 penultimate paragraph we find the following wording: Their final
19 destination is unknown to us for the moment.
20 Do you know who determined, since obviously the Drina Corps
21 command on 12 July 1995 did not know what the destination was of these
22 buses, do you know now, or did you know then, what the destination was?
23 And do you know who had the right to decide on the final destination of
24 these buses?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. It's misstatement of the evidence
2 except for the last part. It's not the destination. The destination is
3 clear, to Srebrenica, but what is not clear yet is the final destination.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I took it that Mr. Lukic referred to the final
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I'm sorry to --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us, Witness, where the command of the
8 Drina Corps did not know what the final destination of these buses was,
9 did you know at the time what the destination was or who could decide on
10 what the final destination would be?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I knew that the buses
12 were supposed to be in Bratunac at a particular time. As for the final
13 destination, I was unaware of it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And did you know who could decide on the final
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And who would it be that?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The VRS Main Staff commander.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, any further questions?
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Are you saying today that the Drina Corps commander could not
22 decide on the destination of these buses?
23 A. Not without the approval by the Main Staff commander. It is my
24 assumption, in answer to your question.
25 Q. So that is your answer.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We have no further questions for you, Mr. Skrbic.
3 Therefore, this concludes your evidence in this Court. I would like to
4 thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered all
5 the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and
6 I wish you a safe return home again. You may follow the usher.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey?
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I have received word from
11 Mr. Vanderpuye, and he is currently in the process of typing up a
12 proofing note from the witness and really needs a bit of time to do that.
13 And so we really can't bring him on today, time wise.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I think it would not be good, Mr. Lukic, because you
15 would not be aware of the content of the proofing note. You would have
16 no time to consider it. Therefore I suggest that at the end of this
17 session, that we adjourn for the day.
18 MR. LUKIC: Suggestion accepted.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but we'll not adjourn until -- well, Mr. Groome
20 most likely will read the transcript anyhow. We would like to enquire
21 with the Prosecution about the remainder of the Prosecution's
22 presentation of evidence and we do not expect an answer within the next
23 few minutes, Mr. McCloskey.
24 The Prosecution has repeatedly stated that its presentation of
25 evidence may conclude in the fall of 2013. The Chamber has three
1 inquiries in relation to that.
2 Number 1: The Chamber would like to inquire whether it would be
3 possible for the Prosecution to file all remaining Rule 92 bis, Rule 92
4 quater and bar table motions by the 30th of August, 2013. May I take it
5 that you have no immediate answer to that, Mr. McCloskey?
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: I know internally we are trying to do that
7 ourselves but as for committing us, not yet.
8 JUDGE ORIE: No. We would like then to hear from you or
9 Mr. Groome in, well, let's say, within the next one or two days.
10 Second: Could the Prosecution indicate the scope of what is
11 still left to be tendered, for example, number of 92 bis, quater,
12 witnesses, number of bar table documents? The Chamber would like have an
13 impression on what we still can expect.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, that's known. That's just a matter of doing
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we would like to hear from the
17 Prosecution also within the next few days.
18 Three: Could the Prosecution indicate where it stands in
19 relation to tendering voluminous expert reports such as the one of
20 Mr. Theunens, if you still intend to call Mr. Theunens, because the
21 Chamber would then like to set a deadline for that. And we are thinking
22 of the 26th of July. Because Mr. Theunens at present is scheduled to be
23 called to testify mid-September.
24 Then for other expert reports such as the ones for witnesses
25 Tabeau, Treanor, and Brown, the Prosecution is also urged to file them as
1 soon as possible.
2 Mr. Groome will certainly read it and will discuss it with you,
3 and we would like to receive answers to those inquiries within the few
4 days to come.
5 We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the
6 9th of July, at 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom, III.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.12 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day of July,
9 2013, at 9.30 a.m.