Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14562

 1                           Wednesday, 17 July 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Mr. McCloskey, you're on your feet.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes good morning, Mr. President, everyone.

12             I just have a response to you on your question about what

13     happened to the attestation for Witness RM144 that we filed quite late.

14     And we -- we -- what we've been able to track down is that we got out of

15     the gate on time, and it got attested relatively quickly with four

16     others, and somehow when it came to filing the motion, the other four got

17     filed on time, and this one somehow got put on a shelf and fell through

18     the cracks.

19             We think we got a friendly reminder phone call and -- in January,

20     and so we found it and filed it in January where we obviously should have

21     sought leave to file it late, which we did not.

22             And that's the -- that's what I've been able to discover.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The "somehow," of course, is the puzzling

24     word.

25             Mr. Lukic, you have ... you can say it is 1-0 so if you a somehow

Page 14563

 1     lost thing, we will consider a somehow explanation perhaps.  Let's see

 2     whether you need it.

 3             Mr. Lukic, you wanted to raise a matter as well.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  Regarding your question from yesterday, P1451,

 5     that was protected witness, I think so ...

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Shouldn't we then -- yes.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I just can tell you that with -- the checkup done by

 8     the Prosecution is okay.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Yes, so then there's -- that's dealt with

10     then.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, one last thing, it's this

12     attestation has been uploaded into e-court under document ID 0684-4197.

13     It was provisionally admitted pending uploading into e-court.

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we need it to replace the -- the other one,

16     the one that's not signed off.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could you repeat the ID number again, Mr.

18     McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, 0684-4197.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the ERN number.  Or is it -- ID number, yes.

21             I give further instructions to Madam Registrar soon.

22             Any other matter?  If not, then could the witness be escorted

23     into the courtroom.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Obradovic.

Page 14564

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by

 3     the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of your testimony.

 4     And Mr. Lukic will now continue his cross-examination.

 5             Mr. Lukic.

 6                           WITNESS:  LJUBOMIR OBRADOVIC [Resumed]

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

10        A.   Good morning.

11             MR. LUKIC: [No interpretation].

12             [Interpretation] P14 --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please repeat the number.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the number, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  It's P1469.  Okay.  We need page 19 in B/C/S, and

16     page 12, the bottom part, in English.

17             Also, we need the bottom part of B/C/S version.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] General, in paragraph -- or, rather, on the

19     second paragraph from the bottom of the page, and in the English version

20     the last two lines on the page, we read the following:

21             "By the end of March, 1995, the Herzegovina Corps Command shall

22     plan operations for reaching the Neretva River valley, termed Krivaja 95,

23     and for reaching the coast-line in the Prevlaka-Cavtat sector, called

24     More 95?"

25             We see that Krivaja 95 was one of the tasks of the Herzegovina

Page 14565

 1     Corps.  Was it customary to give the same name to different operations or

 2     is it more likely based on your experience, that the Drina Corps chose a

 3     name for the operation independently and chose the name Drina 95?

 4        A.   In a directive, certain operations are assigned code-names, and

 5     different operations and different tasks always must have different

 6     names.  I do not know who it was in the Drina Corps who chose the name

 7     Krivaja for this operation here.  As far as I remember, in the directive,

 8     no one operation with which the Drina Corps was tasked was called

 9     Krivaja.

10        Q.   Exactly.  Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now could we please get the last page

12     of this document in both languages.  In B/C/S, it's the previous page.

13     And I need item 8 in both languages.

14        Q.   Here we see that Directive 7, signed by Dr. Radovan Karadzic,

15     stipulates that corps commanders decisions for -- must be sent for

16     approval to the VRS Main Staff commander seven days before the operation.

17             If the commander of the Main Staff was not informed, who would be

18     the one to blame in context of the Krivaja operation?

19        A.   The commander who did not submit the combat documents for a

20     certain operation for approval as mentioned here in this item 8 of the

21     directive.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just ask for clarification, Mr. Lukic.

23             Mr. Obradovic, at page 3, line 5, you say:

24             "As far as I remember, in the directive, no one operation with

25     which the Drina Corps was tasked was called Krivaja."

Page 14566

 1             The Krivaja that we saw now on this directive, it's related to

 2     Herzegovina Corps?  Okay.  Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, so you have my response.

 4             [Interpretation] Could we now get Exhibit P1465.  It's a

 5     Prosecution exhibit.

 6        Q.   General, we see that this is an order for active combat

 7     activities of the Drina Corps Command dated the 2nd of July, 1995.  We

 8     see "Krivaja 95" in the heading.

 9             Is it true that the Main Staff of the VRS is not mentioned among

10     the recipients?

11        A.   This document is sent to the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade, the

12     1st Bratunac Infantry Brigade, the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, the

13     1st Light Infantry Brigade.  I don't remember what BR stands for.  And

14     the 1st Milici Light Infantry Brigade as well as the 5th Mixed Artillery

15     Regiment.  The Main Staff is not [Realtime transcript read in error "in

16     the"] mentioned.

17             It could be the Birac Light Infantry Brigade, it just occurred to

18     me.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, just for my understanding, could command

20     of the Drina Corps in any way give orders to the top level?  I mean, they

21     were informed about this, isn't it?  I mean, why would I expect an order

22     by the Drina Corps to go up rather than down in the line of hierarchy?

23     I'm just missing the point.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Mm-hm.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I mean, they received a copy of this order, so

Page 14567

 1     what's, then, the use -- at least whether they received it or not, it

 2     says at the end of the document that they -- that they received it, that

 3     it was sent to them.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I will clarify that with the witness with the next

 5     question then.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please do so.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   General, is it true that, in keeping with Directive 7, the

 9     Drina Corps Command was supposed to send this order to the Main Staff of

10     the VRS for approval?

11        A.   Yes.  But we see that the heading reads "order," and an order is

12     sent to subordinate units.  On the last page, there should be a mention

13     of the one meant to approve this.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at the last page,

15     please.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Obradovic, could I ask a clarification of your

17     previous answer.

18             You said that the Main Staff would have been -- would have to

19     approve this.  I wonder whether they also would have to approve it if the

20     order was given pursuant to instructions or orders that came from the

21     Main Staff.  Then there would be no need to approve.  Or would there be

22     such need?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in practice, all

24     decisions and plans in order to execute combat actions are approved by

25     the superior officer.  If it's in the topographical map, then in the

Page 14568

 1     upper right-hand corner would be written "decision by" so-and-so and then

 2     "approved by" such and such a person, and then in the right-hand lower

 3     corner, it would be signed by the commander who planned the activities.

 4     His signature would be there.  And so the text of the order itself should

 5     be reviewed in order to have it approved.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I may miss the point.  Planning an operation is not

 7     the same as executing an operation, is there?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The directive orders the

 9     Drina Corps to carry out a certain operation under a certain code-name,

10     when the time comes to implement that task.  Up until that time they

11     would have carried out all the preparations, the planning, organising,

12     materiel logistical support, and then the documents pursuant to which

13     they are going to be executing the operation are then submitted to the

14     superior command for approval.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Could we look at Directive 7/1, please.  This is P1470, please.

18        Q.   We can see this is a document of the 31st March of 1995 from the

19     Main Staff of Army of Republika Srpska, directive for further operations,

20     operative number 7/1.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at page 5 in both

22     versions in e-court, please.

23        Q.   Could you please look at paragraph 5.3.  There's no need to read

24     the whole thing.

25             Have you read it?

Page 14569

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   The tasks here are those intended for the Drina Corps; is that

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Is it correct that this directive, the document by the Main Staff

 6     of the VRS, does not provide for any kind of actions in relation to the

 7     enclaves?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.  That's just not true on the face of

 9     the document.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you then assist Mr. Lukic in referring to the

11     exact place where it is ...

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It says in the first couple of lines:

13             "Prevent enemy breakthrough along selected operative tactical

14     axes ... persistent defence and active combat actions ..." and -- "on the

15     north-west part of the front and around the enclaves ..."

16             So it is anticipating combat actions as Directive 7 did, around

17     the enclaves.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic --

19             MR. LUKIC:  My question was not artfully posed but ...

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please do it artfully.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] General, is it correct that the VRS directive

23     does not provide for the entry of the forces into the enclaves, the

24     capture of the enclaves, the separation of the enclaves, that that is not

25     the task that is issued to the Drina Corps?

Page 14570

 1             Is that how you interpret it?  Because we see here what --

 2     actually what do you see from this part of Directive 7/1?  What was the

 3     task the Drina Corps?

 4        A.   This directive in paragraph 5.3 does not contain such an

 5     assignment.  The emphasis here is on persistent defence and active

 6     actions in order to die down certain forces.  But the focus is to carry

 7     out the operation Spreca first and -- in the first stage.  And then in

 8     the second stage of the operation, to reach the Vlasenica-Kladanj line

 9     and then regroup forces and in joint action with the East Bosnia,

10     1st Krajina and the PVO forces, these forces are defined by the directive

11     as the main force of the army.  In the second and third phases of the

12     operation is infiltrating strong groups into the enemy rear and

13     introducing strong army mechanised forces, execute an attack in the

14     general direction of Kalesija-Dubrava-Tuzla, and reach the village of

15     Serici, Zivinice, Jasicak, Ravno hill positions as soon as possible,

16     thereby cutting off forces of the 2nd Corps of the B and H Army south of

17     that line.  And then support here is mentioned from the air force and the

18     PVO, and the corps IKM is to be decided by the corps commander.

19     Therefore, in this directive the Drina Corps comprises the main body of

20     the force together with the 1st Krajina Corps, the East Bosnia Corps, the

21     air force and the anti-aircraft defence, i.e., the PVO.

22             In 5.5 here - could you please bring the page back - it talks

23     about the rest of the forces.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  If the witnesses says something about 5.5, we would

25     like to have 5.5 on the English screen -- in English on the screen as

Page 14571

 1     well.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I continue?

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Yes, please continue.

 5        A.   In item 5.5, the rest of the VRS forces, comprised by the

 6     2nd Krajina Corps, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the Herzegovina Corps,

 7     colon, and then the task is given, plan and execute tasks given in

 8     Directive number 7.

 9             So these three corps would be entrusted with the rest of the

10     assignments from Directive 7, whereas the other ones that I mentioned

11     before are going to be proceeding according to the tasks noted in the

12     Directive 7.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes that the corps that the

14     witness mentioned were too fast to repeat.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the names of the corps you

16     mentioned last.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just for the auxiliary forces or

18     for the main force?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I think for the -- the main forces.  The assignments

20     in Directive 7.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The auxiliary forces are 5.5.  That

22     is the 2nd Krajina Corps, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and the

23     Herzegovina Corps.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And could you now give the names of the other ones.

25     The other ones who were supposed to further plan and execute what is

Page 14572

 1     found in Directive 7.1.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Directive 7/1, the main body of

 3     the force comprises the 1st Krajina Corps, the East Bosnia Corps, the

 4     Drina Corps, and the air force and anti-aircraft defence forces.  These

 5     were the forces that were supposed to take part in the operation of

 6     strategic importance, carrying the code-name Sadejstvo, co-ordinated

 7     action.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could I return for a second to the

 9     previous document.  That is, the --

10             MR. LUKIC:  Just clarify one thing.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please do so.

12             MR. LUKIC:  If the gentleman can see 5.3 again on his screen

13     because the name of the operation is Spreca 95.  I think ...

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No loud speaking.

15             MR. LUKIC:  The general couldn't hear me.  That's what he was ...

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   What you said just now, Sadejstvo, you meant Spreca 95?

19        A.   No.  The Spreca tasks were supposed to be carried out by the

20     Drina Corps before launching the Sadejstvo 95 operation.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And then I would have -- we just looked a minute ago

23     to the order for active combat activities, operation number 1 issued by

24     the Command of the Drina Corps, 2nd of July, 1995.  That was the one

25     which was not addressed to the Main Staff, although the Main Staff was to

Page 14573

 1     receive a --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  It's P1465.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- copy.

 4             You told us that this should have been sent for approval to the

 5     Main Staff first.

 6             Now, if the Main Staff is informed about this order by a copy

 7     sent to it, and if there would have been any disapproval or any criticism

 8     on it not having been sent for approval first, what would be the response

 9     by the Main Staff?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I understood you correctly, if

11     it was sent, and if there are any corrections in the documents to be made

12     that were planned and drafted by the Drina Corps, then this is something

13     that would be corrected in the Main Staff.  If not, approval would be

14     given to proceed according to the documents.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Would there not be a message:  Hey, you guys down

16     there, you are giving an order which has not been approved yet.  You

17     should refrain from doing that.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I cannot really go

19     into that because I wasn't present.  What I'm talking about is the way it

20     should be according to the rules.  As for what actually happened, I don't

21     know that.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm still confused.  Is this in accordance with the

23     rules?  It says nowhere, We are seeking your approval.  They're issuing

24     orders.  And you told us that that should have been approved first before

25     giving such orders.  So it seems to be not in accordance with the rules,

Page 14574

 1     as you described them to us.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you didn't

 3     understand.

 4             They draft the documents formally the way it should be according

 5     to the instructions on the work of the staffs and commands, and they

 6     draft the text.  They represent the decision graphically on a

 7     topographical map after that.

 8             If there are no objections or remarks, then they are told to

 9     proceed according to the documents which they sent.  If there are any

10     remarks or objections, then corrections would be made, and then the task

11     would be carried out according to the corrected documents.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Now do I then have to understand the

13     2nd of July document, which we looked at earlier, to be sent for approval

14     rather than to be issued to the subordinate units?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A copy of the document would remain

16     at the corps command.  Another copy would be sent to the Main Staff.  If

17     approval is received to proceed according to the documents, then the

18     document would be photocopied and submitted to the subordinate units, and

19     those who are supposed to take part in the execution of the assignment

20     would be given their assignments.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So, if finally, this order would be executed -- no.

22     Let me rephrase my question.

23             First, this order would not be delivered to the subordinate units

24     until after approval would have been received.  Is that correctly

25     understood?

Page 14575

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's how it should be, according

 2     to the rules.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, would that approval be given in writing,

 4     or could it also be given in any other way?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An approval can be given via the

 6     communications devices, or it can be issued in writing.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So just a radio communication would have been

 8     sufficient to approve so that the order could be further executed.  Is

 9     that correctly understood?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now I am a bit confused.  Because you said

12     earlier that the approval was given by the higher level of command by a

13     signature on the topographical map.  That means not in normal writing,

14     not by telegram, not by phone call, nor not by Motorola or whatever.

15             What is true?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The instruction on the working map

17     defines the graphic representation and the narrative part and so on.

18     But, in practice, it can happen that the organs of the staff sector

19     inspect a plan and suggest to the commander that everything is all right,

20     so that the commander, who may not even be at the Main Staff, orally

21     approves the use of these documents that were sent to the Main Staff by

22     the subordinate commander.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  So I do understand, if no correction is received on

24     any of the points, and if an oral approval would have been given through

25     radio communication, you could just go ahead.

Page 14576

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Earlier in a trial I was

 2     explaining the role of the staff sector in inspecting the documents of

 3     the subordinate commands in the context of approving a decision.  When

 4     they inspect all of that and inform the commander or the chief of

 5     Main Staff that it is okay, then he approves.

 6             If there are -- if corrections must be made, then the documents

 7     are sent back for further processing.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 9             Mr. McCloskey.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we clarify the Defence's position on this?

11     It's incumbent upon them to tell their -- to put the case to the witness

12     so the suggestion -- I can't tell but it appears to be that the

13     Main Staff did not approve this plan?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That was at least what I understood to be the

15     suggestion implied in the questions.

16             Mr. Lukic, could you tell us --

17             MR. LUKIC:  I will follow with my questions so it will be clear,

18     I think.  I would rather the witness testify rather than me.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the witness can -- the witness cannot

20     testify about the position of the Defence.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Our position that this document never reached

22     Main Staff of the VRS.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then perhaps I should have let you first

24     ask --

25             MR. LUKIC:  Perhaps.

Page 14577

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the witness.  Perhaps that was not a very wise

 2     decision.  But let's proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  That's what I tried to do.  Okay.  Thank you.

 4             Let's have the last page of this document on our screens.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Let me first ask you, General, do you know if

 6     this document ever made it to the Main Staff of the VRS?

 7        A.   I have no knowledge about that.

 8        Q.   Can it be inferred from this document that, at the same time it

 9     was sent to the Main Staff of the VRS, was copied seven-fold and these

10     copies were delivered to the forward command post number 1 of the KDK and

11     the rest of them as listed here?

12        A.   Well, we can read to the left of the signature block that this

13     was typed in two copies and delivered to:  One, original, in the archives

14     of the Drina Corps Command; and two, Main Staff of the VRS.

15             Below that there's an additional remark saying, "seven copies

16     made and delivered to:  Forward command post number 1 of the Drina Corps

17     Command; the 1st Zvornik" --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you don't have to read out that list.  We

19     see that there are seven units mentioned there.

20             Please proceed.  I mean, proceed with your answer.

21             The question was whether you can infer from this document that,

22     if I understood you well, Mr. Lukic, that simultaneously the copies were

23     sent to the Main Staff and to the subordinate units.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Could you answer, General.

Page 14578

 1        A.   No, I cannot.  We saw in the heading of the document the date of

 2     the 2nd of July, I think.  I don't know when the subordinate units

 3     received it.  I'd have to see some document of the subordinate units to

 4     be able to tell whether it was received simultaneously.

 5        Q.   Let us now focus on this remark:  "Seven copies made and

 6     delivered to ..."

 7             This refers to the past; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   So this document of the 2nd of July tells us that, at that point

10     in time, it already been delivered.

11        A.   Yes.  This is a reference to a past time.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Can I move on or you have more questions,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I would have one more question.

15             The same - at least in the English translation - is said for the

16     Main Staff of the VRS.  Would that mean that they would have -- it would

17     have been delivered to them already and that the original was already

18     delivered to the archive?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably.  This narrative part of

20     the decision of the commander of the Drina Corps is accompanied by a

21     graphic representation on a topographic map.  It cannot be sent over a

22     coded communications channel.  You would have to give that to a courier.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You told us that because it says "seven copies

24     delivered to" that it had been delivered already.

25             Now I ask you whether the words "typed in two copies and

Page 14579

 1     delivered to" would not then have the same meaning, that it had been

 2     delivered already.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it would apply to all of

 4     this.  This is either a note saying that one copy goes to the Main Staff

 5     and another to the archives.  And, yes, it says "delivered to."

 6             It doesn't say "to be delivered to."

 7             So this is a reference to the past.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, this is a totally new concept for me, that you

 9     sent a document to say that the same document was sent or delivered.

10     That is puzzling me highly, just for you to know, Mr. Lukic.

11             And I see that the typewriting seems to be similar for this last

12     portion in the original compared to the previous text above the

13     signature.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Is it true, General, does this document tell us that even if it

17     was delivered to the Main Staff of the VRS, and since we see that the

18     document was drafted on the 2nd of July, 1992 --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  1995.

20             Could counsel please repeat the last part of his question.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you're invited to repeat the last part of

22     your question.  But if you want to consult with your -- if there's any

23     need to consult with Mr. Mladic, then ...

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll repeat the question.

25        Q.   Is it true that even if this document was delivered to the

Page 14580

 1     Main Staff of the VRS and simultaneously to the seven addresses stated

 2     below, they didn't wait for an approval of the Main Staff of the VRS?

 3        A.   That is possible if the one who signed the order was sure that

 4     the Main Staff would approve this.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment of patience, please.  I

 7     must consult my client.

 8                           [Defence counsel confer]

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  We have on page -- yeah,

12     page, I think, 17, line 8, we have an English translation that the

13     document Krivaja 95 was drafted on July 2nd.  And I don't know if that's

14     a translation issue or not.  But there's no mention of drafted like there

15     was on the directive.  We -- we have a date of July 2nd on it.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which does not exclude that it was drafted

17     that day but at least it's dated the 2nd of July.

18             Mr. Lukic, you would agree with that.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I don't think that in the answer of the

21     witness it -- there's any reason to revisit that.

22             Please proceed.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I get clarification, Mr. Lukic, before you go

24     on.

25             Page 17, line 15, that last question you put to the witness, you

Page 14581

 1     said:  "... they didn't wait for an approval of the Main Staff of the

 2     VRS."

 3             I want to get -- and the witness said in response:

 4             "That is the possible if the one who signed the order was sure

 5     that the Main Staff would approve this."

 6             Now when you -- when you -- when you say that, sir, wait -- they

 7     didn't wait before what happened?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic, the question did not -- they didn't

 9     wait to do what or to --

10             MR. LUKIC:  To start with the action.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That was not part of the -- did you

12     understand the question in that way, Witness, that they would not wait to

13     start executing the order.  Is that what your answer relates to?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please explain.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You asked before it was sent to the

19     subordinate units in accordance with the heading.  And we saw the date of

20     the 2nd there.  So that it's clear that they didn't wait for a response

21     from the Main Staff before they sent it to the subordinate units.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And if you sent it to the -- sent it to the

23     subordinate units without any reservation, it would mean that they would

24     act in accordance with the order.  Is that correctly understood?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 14582

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3        Q.   Do you know anything about any direct contacts between

 4     President Karadzic and General Krstic in connection with this operation?

 5        A.   Only -- I know of it only from an appearance of

 6     President Karadzic on TV.  And he said - I'm paraphrasing now - that he

 7     ordered General Krstic to implement the Srebrenica operation.  Or that

 8     he -- he ordered him to plan it.  But that was said on TV.

 9        Q.   Do you know that General Mladic received the required documents

10     to the -- for this operation of the Drina Corps only on the 13th of July?

11        A.   I don't know that because I arrived at the Main Staff only on the

12     17th.

13        Q.   Well, that's why I asked you.  You may have learned of it later.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to put a follow-up question to the

15     witness.

16             You were asked about direct contacts between President Karadzic

17     and General Krstic.  Do you know anything about any direct contacts

18     between General Mladic and General Krstic, in connection with this

19     operation?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, one of your questions has not received an

23     answer yet.

24             The witness said that he doesn't know that General Mladic

25     received the required documents for this operation only on the

Page 14583

 1     13th of July because he arrived only at the 17th at the Main Staff.

 2             Then your question was whether he learned about it later.  And

 3     that question has not been answered yet.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did answer.  You may not have

 5     heard it.  I said no.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that was not on the record.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             [In English] I think it's a break time.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  It certainly is time for the break.

11             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

12             We'll take a break of 20 minutes, Mr. Obradovic.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

18             Meanwhile, I use the time to give the further instructions to

19     Madam Registrar in relation to P387, which was admitted conditionally

20     pending attestation and declaration.

21             Doc ID 0684-4197 should replace the English version of P387,

22     which is now without attestation and declaration.  And I hereby confirm

23     that, once this is replaced, that P387 is now finally admitted into

24     evidence.  The attestation and declaration are not in the B/C/S

25     translation but that is usual practice.

Page 14584

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

 4             I need make one correction in the transcript.  And maybe we

 5     should have P1465 on our screens as well, the first page.

 6             The correction in transcript is -- should be -- be made on the

 7     page 4 --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Mm-hm.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Page 4.  Yes.

11             MR. LUKIC:  My question was in line 7, so we know -- what we are

12     talking about.  That, in this document, on our screen, P1465, and my

13     question was:  Is it true that the Main Staff of the VRS is not mentioned

14     among the recipients?

15             Then the answer registered in line 13 is:  "The Main Staff is in

16     the mentioned."

17             And the answer was:  The Main Staff is not mentioned.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Among the addressees.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Among addressees.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Although the Main Staff is mentioned at the --

21             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- very bottom of the paragraph.

23             MR. LUKIC:  -- this is only for addressees.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is I think there's no disagreement,

25     whatever -- of whatever kind as to question and answer and the content of

Page 14585

 1     the document.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] General, one question out of context.  I was

 5     going through my questions now at the break.  You were asked about

 6     Warrant Officer Zeljkovic yesterday.  He was one of those who signed the

 7     directive.  Actually, he typed it out.

 8        A.   Yes.  I think that he is a sergeant.  I think that's what it says

 9     there, sergeant first class.

10        Q.   And Staff-Sergeant Zeljkovic, who was he subordinated to?

11        A.   Staff-Sergeant Zeljkovic was in the logistics sector, and I think

12     he was in the technical service.

13        Q.   I wanted to ask you something --

14        A.   I know that he was trained for data entry into the computer.

15     Perhaps I'm mistaken about the technical service and the logistics

16     sector.  I'm not quite sure, but I think that's where he was.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And now I wanted to ask you something about the

18     10th Sabotage Detachment.  This unit was discussed.  We have that in the

19     diagram.

20             In the professional sense, to whom was the 10th Sabotage

21     Detachment subordinated?  In the professional sense.

22        A.   In the professional sense, the sabotage detachment was

23     subordinated to the chief of the intelligence administration.

24        Q.   In 1995, who was that?

25        A.   Colonel Petar Salapura.

Page 14586

 1        Q.   And who was the immediate superior to Petar Salapura?

 2        A.   That was part of the security and intelligence administration

 3     headed by General -- Major-General Zdravko Tolimir.

 4        Q.   Is it correct -- actually, you can tell me.  Who suggests the use

 5     of the 10th Sabotage Detachment to General Mladic?

 6        A.   Everything that has to do with the activities of that --

 7     proposals for the use of that unit is -- are given by the chief of the

 8     administration.  Just as the chief of the combat arms of armoured units

 9     or artillery would propose the use of artillery or their own combat arm.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could I ask -- the chief of the

11     administration, in this context, would that be General Tolimir?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Tolimir is at the centre --

13     at the head of the sector.  The sector had two administrations:  The

14     intelligence administration and the security administration.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Therefore, would it be Colonel Salapura

16     himself who would -- let me just check.

17             Could you give a name to the -- where you said the head of the

18     administration?  Who would be that -- who would that be?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The chief of the intelligence

20     administration was Colonel Petar Salapura.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Thank you.  And if the 10th Sabotage Detachment were to be

25     resubordinated to the Drina Corps, who would it answer to?  To the

Page 14587

 1     commander of the Main Staff or to the commander of the Drina Corps?

 2        A.   Each unit that is resubordinated, including the

 3     10th Sabotage Detachment, or the sabotage detachment, when it reports to

 4     the commander of the unit to which it is being resubordinated, until the

 5     time the task is completed is under the command and executes assignments

 6     of the commander to whom it is resubordinated.

 7        Q.   And, in this case, that would be the commander of the

 8     Drina Corps.

 9        A.   Yes, if the unit is resubordinated to him.

10        Q.   And who commands the military police of the Bratunac Brigade?

11        A.   The commander to whom the police brigade under -- under whom the

12     police brigade is, and that would be the commander of the

13     Bratunac Brigade.

14        Q.   And let's say that there is a military police platoon in the

15     battalion; is that correct?

16        A.   By establishment, a battalion does not have a police component.

17        Q.   All right.  Very well.  I found in somebody's answer earlier that

18     it does, but thank you for the correction.

19             So what would be the first lowest-ranking unit that would have a

20     military police component?

21        A.   Brigade.  A regiment or a brigade.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And how does the reporting, then, proceed?  From the

23     unit -- from the commander of the military police unit within the

24     brigade, who does that go to?

25        A.   That's not a komandant, it's a komandir because it is usually a

Page 14588

 1     military police company so all the reporting is given to the komandant,

 2     the commander.

 3        Q.   The commander of what?

 4        A.   In the professional sense, it would go to the superior at the

 5     corps command or the intelligence organ -- actually, the security organ,

 6     excuse me.  Mostly for those tasks that have to do with

 7     counter-intelligence work and tasks of -- of a criminal investigation

 8     nature.

 9        Q.   If you know - and if you don't, just say you don't know - so how

10     detailed are the reports that come from that level to Colonel Salapura?

11        A.   I cannot answer that question.

12        Q.   Well, if you can, all right; but if not, just say that you

13     cannot, that you don't know.

14        A.   I don't know the answer to that question.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since this is not a part of the

17     exhibit admitted as your statement, can we look at 1D1134, in e-court,

18     please.

19             1D1134 should be the transcript dated the 31st of March, 2011,

20     from the Tolimir case.  We need to look at page 106 of this transcript,

21     and that would correspond to transcript page 12194.

22        Q.   My learned friend Mr. McCloskey asked you in line 9:

23             [In English] "Q.  And my question about prisoners of war, we have

24     seen military police guarding and sometimes questioning prisoners of war.

25     Would that be a part of their duty?

Page 14589

 1             "A.  Yes.  Probably that was done by members of the crime

 2     departments on the strength of the military police."

 3             [Interpretation] And would you stand by this part of your

 4     statement today?

 5             Would you stand by this part of your statement today?

 6        A.   I think that they're the most professional ones in order to take

 7     statements and in order to question the prisoners.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Your question was, does he stand by that

 9     statement.  He hasn't answered that.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

11        Q.   Could you please answer with a yes or no.  Would you agree with

12     this part of your statement today?

13        A.   Yes.  I stand by the part that pertains to the taking of

14     statements, yes.

15        Q.   What about guarding?

16        A.   Guarding is not the exclusive task of the military police.  Any

17     fighter could do that job.  And usually members of the military police

18     unit, even when they're recruited, need to be a bit more capable than

19     just regular fighters.  So that it's not efficient to use that personnel

20     for guard-duty assignments.

21        Q.   But would you agree that the military police is trained both for

22     guard duty and for escorting prisoners of war?

23        A.   Yes.  And in peacetime and -- however, in wartime, all fighters

24     can -- can do that; but as far as bringing people in and questioning

25     them, that would be their assignment, their task.

Page 14590

 1        Q.   And what is the role of the security organ and the intelligence

 2     organ in the professional sense?  For example, as it relates to the

 3     military police in the Bratunac Brigade.

 4        A.   The security and the intelligence organ?  Well, the intelligence

 5     organ is busy with intelligence-gathering about the opposing side --

 6        Q.   No, we're talking about the military police, what sort of

 7     professional responsibility do they have or don't have, putting forward

 8     suggestions?

 9        A.   There is a formation in the brigade which is called the

10     reconnaissance company.  In the professional sense, it is commanded by

11     the chief of the intelligence sector, the assistant commander for

12     intelligence.  And the chief of security, in the professional sense, is

13     in charge of the military police company, for their training, sending

14     them for training, for counter-intelligence work, and so on and so forth.

15        Q.   Who is the person who commands that unit?

16        A.   Both units are under the command of the brigade commander.

17        Q.   You know Momir Nikolic from the Bratunac Brigade, right?  You

18     heard of him?

19        A.   Yes, I heard of him in connection with a trial.

20        Q.   Who was his immediate superior?

21        A.   The brigade commander.  And along professional lines, that is,

22     the lines of intelligence, the chief of intelligence affairs of the

23     corps.

24        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic from the Drina Corps, who was his

25     direct superior?

Page 14591

 1        A.   The corps commander.  And along professional lines of security

 2     and counter-intelligence, the chief of the security administration of the

 3     Main Staff.

 4        Q.   Do you agree that the chief of the intelligence and security

 5     sector of the Main Staff, General Tolimir, cannot issue an order to a

 6     military police battalion of the Drina Corps?

 7        A.   It depends if he was given authority to do so by his superior.

 8        Q.   We'd have to look at P1783.  It's your testimony from the Tolimir

 9     case which was admitted as your statement.  My question may have been

10     less than precise.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 108, please, in e-court.  That

12     should correspond to transcript page 12196.  Then we'll need the

13     following page, 12196.

14             Line 24, I'll read it out:

15             [In English] "The chief of an administration may not issue a task

16     to the military police battalion within the Drina Corps.  This is within

17     the authority of the commander.  However, through the security organ, in

18     the professional aspect" --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we move to the next page.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

21        Q.   "However, through the security organ, in the professional aspect,

22     he can help general, professional, and specialised training in order to

23     enable the military police to perform their tasks in a professional way.

24     But when we are talking about assigning tasks, that is something done by

25     the commander."

Page 14592

 1             [Interpretation] My question may have been insufficiently clear.

 2             Do you stand by this statement of yours in the Tolimir case, when

 3     you say that he was in no position to issue orders?

 4        A.   Yes, I stand by that.  But you gave an example of brigades and

 5     asked about a military police company and a recon company.  They are in

 6     the exclusive authority of the brigade commander.  So only the commander

 7     is authorised to command these units.

 8             Talking about professional lines, they have to do with specific

 9     types of tasks, but that does not involve commanding.

10        Q.   Is it also true that Colonel Beara from the security

11     administration, as part of the sector headed by General Tolimir, could

12     not issue orders to the military police battalion of the Drina Corps?

13        A.   It's the same as in the previous example.  It's exclusively up to

14     the corps commander.

15        Q.   All this applies to the military police companies of the Zvornik

16     and Bratunac Brigades; right?

17        A.   Yes.  They are commanded by the brigade commanders.

18        Q.   Thank you.  We're done with the military police.

19             Now I'll briefly deal with the period before the operations in

20     and around the enclaves of Zepa and Srebrenica.

21             Do you know that at a certain point the Main Staff of the VRS -

22     that is, the security of the Main Staff - was attacked from these

23     enclaves?

24        A.   In the second half of June 1995, before I returned from my

25     sick-leave, I think it was on the 26th of June, nine sabotage and

Page 14593

 1     terrorist groups were infiltrated from Zepa and the surrounding areas.

 2     Then the communications regiment and the motorised regiment had seven

 3     dead and 12 wounded.  Among the wounded, there was also Major Knezevic.

 4     I don't remember his first name.  But he was a member of the

 5     Protection Regiment.

 6        Q.   How far was the Main Staff of the VRS from Zepa?

 7        A.   Well, I can't tell you precisely.

 8        Q.   Well, roughly.

 9        A.   15, 20 kilometres.  But those groups were very close to the

10     Main Staff, which was at Crna Rijeka.  As a result, the soldiers of

11     the -- these units providing security to the Main Staff, that is, the

12     67th Communications Regiment and the 65th Protection Regiment, came to

13     harm.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could counsel please start

15     over with his question.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please re-start your question, Mr. Lukic.

17     Interpreters did not catch it.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We now first need P23.  It's a

19     demilitarisation agreement for Srebrenica signed by General Ratko Mladic,

20     as we see, then General Sefer Halilovic, in the presence of

21     General Philippe Morillon.

22             Could we please get the last page with the signatures.

23        Q.   While you worked at the Main Staff and did your job, what -- how

24     did -- what do you think, how did the Serbian side interpret this

25     agreement?  Were the persons who signed it in such positions as to be

Page 14594

 1     able to bind all three sides?  Was General Mladic's signature binding for

 2     the Serbian side or Halilovic's signature for the Bosniak side?

 3        A.   The signatures of these two persons from the VRS and the BH army

 4     were binding.

 5             General Mladic was not to touch the protected zone.  Sefer

 6     Halilovic was to conduct a demilitarisation.  The same applies to

 7     General Morillon.  And no combat activities were allowed from the

 8     protected zone.  The precondition was demilitarisation.

 9        Q.   But the protected zone was never demilitarised; right?

10        A.   It wasn't.  Due to the huge losses, within three years after the

11     signature of this agreement, Serbian villages around Bratunac suffered a

12     lot, and even soldiers of the VRS came to harm.  I spoke about the events

13     before July - that is, on the 26th of June - nine sabotage and terrorist

14     groups were infiltrated.  You know what that meant, in terms of fear

15     among the Serbian population.  They were -- people were killed and their

16     property looted and destroyed.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, part of your question is about who was

19     competent to sign for whom, which seems to be a legal issue.  That's one.

20             We have submissions of the parties and despite the criticism by

21     the Defence that we were making up our minds too early, what we wanted to

22     have is a proper understanding of the context of many questions put to

23     witnesses as they are today.

24             And, second, the remainder of the evidence you are eliciting now

25     seems to be very repetitious.  We have heard that many, many times, and

Page 14595

 1     we did not understand from the re-examination of the witnesses by the

 2     Prosecution that there was great dispute about such activities.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  It is fundamentally

 4     uncontested [Realtime transcript read in error "contested"] this -- these

 5     issues as I stated in the opening statement and many times.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And if it will be the third time or the fourth time,

 7     but I think it is now the tenth time that we hear this evidence,

 8     Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry if I was not clear, but my main intention is to

10     elicit from this gentleman how VRS side understood the signature of

11     Mr. Morillon.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you should ask that question to the --

13             MR. LUKIC:  I did.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well ... could you assist me in where exactly you

15     did it.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Mm-hm.  Mm-hm.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             MR. LUKIC:  It's in -- on page 31, line 12.  I said, I asked:

19     While you worked at the Main Staff and did your job --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You said, Were the signatures binding, and you

21     asked about Mladic and Halilovic.  You didn't say a word about

22     Morillon --

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I did.  Maybe it's not registered.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Morillon was not a party to the agreement, a

25     witness to the agreement, so focussed questions in that respect I would

Page 14596

 1     not mind but -- and that does not in any way change what I said after

 2     that, that what happened, attacks on villages, et cetera --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Now I see that -- sorry.  Now I see that part of my

 4     question is missing.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, at least it was not dealt with in the answer,

 6     so then would you have insisted on a complete answer to your questions if

 7     you were focussed [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I think that the witness also dealt with Mr. Morillon

 9     in his answer.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see where he does so.

11             These two persons he talks about.  Then he talks about Mladic in

12     the end.  He says, "the same applies to General Morillon."  What now "the

13     same" is, is not clear because for Mladic and for Halilovic there were

14     apparently different obligations.

15             So it's at least -- well, let's say, in a positive way it's

16     totally unclear what you asked and what you wanted to elicit.

17             MR. LUKIC:  I'll try to clarify.  Thanks.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I started that observation with legal

19     opinion.

20             MR. LUKIC:  And I'm asking the gentleman how it was seen on the

21     Serbian side.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  But then please, very precise, what was seen,

23     of course, Morillon was -- had a command position, et cetera, but please

24     try to focus.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

Page 14597

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I hope the transcript will clear it up, but I'm

 3     quoted as saying that it's "fundamentally contested" when it is not.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I heard you say that this was uncontested.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] You heard this discussion, General.  Therefore

 8     my question will be short.

 9             How did the Serbian side understand the role of General Morillon

10     when he signed this agreement as a witness?  Did you understand that

11     UNPROFOR was thereby assuming some duties or not?

12        A.   We understood it the following way.  General Morillon, as

13     representative of the peacekeeping forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina who have

14     a neutral status, was to monitor whether this agreement was honoured and

15     implemented.  That's why their forces were deployed around Zepa.  I'm

16     still convinced that the UN failed to create a protected zone --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Did not create a

18     protected zone.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- so that the 28th Division could

20     conduct raids from there and return there after those raids unharmed.

21     And I'm speaking about the 28th Division of the BH army.  That's how we

22     understood that.

23             MR. LUKIC:  I've finished with this area, so if you have any

24     further questions, Your Honour, I would move on.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I have no further questions apart from that --

Page 14598

 1     what we now know is what the witness believe happened.  We have not

 2     talked about obligations, and we have not a clear analysis -- and perhaps

 3     we could not expect this from this witness on obligations and duties of

 4     all -- of the two parties and the UNPROFOR as a witness to this, which

 5     was assigned certain tasks.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8        Q.   I'm going to ask you about this operation directed at Zepa now.

 9             Was it planned by the Main Staff; do you know?

10        A.   No.  I said that in my previous testimony as well.  This was an

11     active that was planned at the Command of the Drina Corps, and the

12     control of that operation was entrusted to the Drina Corps.

13        Q.   Is it correct that the action was planned at the Main Staff and

14     that you were supposed to monitor the development of the action?  Could

15     you tell us a little bit about it.

16        A.   Had it been an operation that was supposed to have been

17     controlled by the Main Staff, then the planning, the organisation would

18     also have been carried out by the Main Staff.  The actual organisation of

19     the course of the operation was something that was monitored by the

20     Main Staff.

21        Q.   You returned on the 17th of July, 1995.  So, in that case, you

22     would have personally taken part in the operation, the overseeing of it.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   In your testimony, you were asked also about the humanitarian

25     convoys, so that would be the next area that I would ask you to focus on.

Page 14599

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We are going to need a new document

 2     in e-court, 1D1100.  As you can see, this is the Official Gazette of

 3     Republika Srpska.  We need to look at the next page.  This first

 4     decision.

 5        Q.   As you can see here, this is a decision on forming a state

 6     committee for co-operation with the United Nations and international

 7     humanitarian organisations.

 8             First of all, would you agree with me that when you were

 9     explaining the humanitarian convoys issue, you did not know that such a

10     state committee was formed and that you did not know what its

11     responsibilities were?

12        A.   I heard about the committee, but I was not sure about its

13     composition, and I did not know what exactly its responsibilities were.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, could all extra microphones

15     be switched off, please.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   This decision was adopted on the 14th of March, 1995.  We will

18     come to the signatories.  It was signed by the president of the republic,

19     Dr. Radovan Karadzic.

20             We need to look at Article 6 now, please.

21             Article 6 of the decision which states:

22             "Permits for the movement of convoys and employees of the UN and

23     humanitarian organisations on the territory of Republika Srpska shall be

24     issued by the co-ordinating body for humanitarian operations, pursuant to

25     committee decisions."

Page 14600

 1             Article 7 states:

 2             "The committee shall adopt special rules of procedure for issuing

 3     permits for the movement of convoys and employees of the UN and

 4     humanitarian organisations on the territory of Republika Srpska."

 5             In Article 3 - we need to go back a little bit - it states:

 6             "Decisions and orders from the committee's jurisdiction are

 7     binding for all state organs of Republika Srpska."

 8             We now need to look at Article 8.  We will also see the

 9     signatory, but Article 8 states:

10             "The committee shall submit a quarterly report on its work to the

11     president of the republic."

12             We can see that the date is the 14th of March, 1995, and that

13     it's signed by the president of the republic, Dr. Radovan Karadzic.

14             Of course, the army checked the convoys in the field; is that

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Authorised persons from the units carried out controls as

18     determined by the commanders who -- through whose territory the convoys

19     were passing; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Are you aware how General Ratko Mladic carried out the

22     instructions or the requests of the committee?  We can see on the

23     documents that he would put "yes" or "no" on the documents.  Do you know

24     whether this "yes" or "no" was his decision, or was that something that

25     he received as to which convoy should be let through and which one should

Page 14601

 1     not?

 2        A.   Well, I don't know anything about the communication of

 3     General Mladic and others that he was communicating with.  All I know are

 4     documents that would come from the sector initialed by him.  I don't know

 5     on which basis such decisions were made though.

 6        Q.   Now we're going to look at an earlier decision.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need to look at 65 ter P14596, in

 8     e-court, please.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please check the number.  That can't be

10     correct.  It can't be 65 ter and P number.

11             MR. LUKIC:  It's 65 ter.  It's 65 ter number [Interpretation]

12     65 ter number.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Without the P.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Without P, yes.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] General, we can see that even though at the top

16     it says "Supreme Headquarters of the Army of Republic of Srpska," it's

17     obvious that the document was issued by the president of the republic,

18     Dr. Radovan Karadzic, which we can see from the signature.  And this is

19     also how the interpreter -- how the translators understood it when they

20     were translating it into English.

21             At the bottom of the page in English, it says:

22             "Therefore, I have made the following decision ..."

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we stay on the same page in the

24     B/C/S, and can we move to the next page in English version, please.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 14602

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm informed there is only one page.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, it's 65 ter number.  So probably we would have

 3     to ask the Prosecution to upload the next page.  In English at least.

 4             But I will just read one paragraph, after this, what we already

 5     have translated in English, it's under number 1 what we can see in B/C/S

 6     version.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] It states here:

 8             "Therefore, I have made the following decision:  All permits for

 9     the movement of humanitarian convoys, as well as supply convoys for

10     UNPROFOR, will be issued from the office of the Supreme Commander.

11     Before that, the cabinet, the office, will obtain your opinion and other

12     representative opinions."

13             This document is from December 1994.

14             Did you know that already at that time, Dr. Karadzic's office was

15     the only institution that could decide about the passage of humanitarian

16     convoys and UNPROFOR convoys?

17        A.   At the time, in 1994, December 1994, I was at the western front,

18     so this is the first time that I'm seeing this document.  But it does

19     state in paragraph 2 that all the correspondence of the VRS with

20     international organisations is to proceed through the office of the

21     Supreme Commander.  For that purpose, a special fax line will be set up

22     that will be constantly on duty, and that fax was the fax of

23     Colonel Milos Djurdjic that was dedicated to that.  From the Supreme

24     Commander's office.

25        Q.   It's not in dispute that there were controls and also

Page 14603

 1     restrictions on the passage of some convoys.  Did you ever hear that

 2     convoys that were supposed to be humanitarian convoys transported

 3     ammunition and weaponry through the territory of Republika Srpska for the

 4     other side?

 5        A.   Yes.  There's an obvious example of that, that I saw at this

 6     Tribunal in the Karadzic case when he showed a document during the

 7     cross-examination where a member of the peacekeeping forces addresses the

 8     Defence Ministry of the B and H Army, stating that in the previous

 9     convoy, oxygen tanks incorrectly -- contained incorrectly packed

10     ammunition so that any shifting of the bottles could reveal the presence

11     of ammunition, which did not happen, but he issued a warning that this

12     should not happen again in future and that these -- this -- these items

13     should be packed properly.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at 1D -- in e-court, yes,

15     actually, that is 1D1101.

16             [In English] Or maybe it's break time so we can continue after

17     the break.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We will continue after the break.  But, first, the

19     witness should be escorted out of the courtroom.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at quarter past 12.00.

22                           --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 14604

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   You were speaking about a document but I think we'll call it up

 4     later.

 5             This is the staff of the Supreme Command of the armed forces of

 6     the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  We see in the signature block the

 7     name of Sefer Halilovic, Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command.

 8             And he says it is necessary to approve as many oxygen bottles as

 9     possible.  They will be transported to Zagreb, and they will be used at

10     the front in Sarajevo.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we get 1D1104 in e-court,

12     please.  This is not the document.  1D1104 is what I need.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  This is document uploaded under this number.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Okay.  Then we'll go back to the

15     previous document.  We don't need this one, that's for sure.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I inquire, before you continue, to what extent

17     or where there is dispute about the oxygen bottle incident.  So that we

18     can focus on -- because that such an incident happened, whether or not

19     staged, whether or not -- I don't know, but is there a dispute about

20     that?

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr.  President.  Nor is there dispute about

22     the bullets and the flour incident or the other few incidents about this

23     sort of thing.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Why not at least agree on this as a basis for

25     any possible further questions.

Page 14605

 1             MR. LUKIC:  There is no dispute that humanitarian aid was used

 2     for smuggling ammunition and weaponry, then --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, at least that there were such incidents.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Hmm ...

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I would agree that there were a few

 6     incidents and that the VRS has every right to control those and did so.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  My mistake was that I would just like to see 1D1103.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  In order to avoid problems in the future, could you

 9     make a short list of these incidents so that the parties agree that these

10     incidents took place and to the extent they can agree on whether they

11     were used for smuggling, that we have that somewhere on the record.

12             Mr. Lukic, are you willing to stipulate these matters, together

13     with Mr. McCloskey?

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, of course.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Then that may save quite some time in

16     court.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  In any way, we will just propose for

19     those two documents to be admitted into evidence, 1D1101 and 1D1103.  So

20     we have it on the record.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections, I take it, then, Mr. McCloskey.

22             Madam Registrar, for these two documents.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1101 receives number D334,

24     Your Honours.  And document 1D1103 receives number D335, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Both are admitted into evidence.

Page 14606

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I will not ask any further questions.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Let me now return to the time when you returned

 3     to the Main Staff.  I'll ask you about Srebrenica.

 4             Did you know, while you were at the Main Staff, how many

 5     prisoners had been taken in the Srebrenica operation?

 6        A.   No.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we should return to P1470.  This

 8     is Directive 7/1 again, but the context is very different.

 9             In the B/C/S, I need page 6, and it's the same page in English.

10     Paragraph 4.  And it's item 6.3 in B/C/S.  It seems that we need the

11     following page in English.

12             Thank you.

13        Q.   We see that item 6.3, at the bottom of the page, reads:

14             "When using communications, means of communications" --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  We don't see where counsel is reading from.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Seems to be second paragraph of item 6.3, the fourth

17     line, "When using communications systems ..."

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I said paragraph 4 on this page in English

19     version.  Yes, yes, thank you.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] "When using communications systems adhere

21     strictly to cryptographic protection procedures and limit the use of

22     handheld and other non-secure radio equipment to the essential minimum,

23     taking care that the enemy is definitely not listening in.  Plan and

24     organise the work of a decoy radio network at the level of VRS Main Staff

25     and the corps commands."

Page 14607

 1             What does this mean, this use of decoy radio networks?

 2        A.   In order to protect our own intentions and plans and deceive the

 3     enemy, decoy radio networks were set up with a certain number, a certain

 4     quantity of devices to confuse the enemy so that he gets a wrong image of

 5     the number of units.  Because each device would simulate a separate

 6     command, or a separate unit.  In these decoy radio networks, orders were

 7     issued to direct the attention of the enemy in the wrong direction.

 8        Q.   Do you know if participants in a conversation introduced

 9     themselves as being somebody else?

10        A.   All the ones operating these decoy radio networks took care for

11     their activity to be as convincing as possible.  They would issue orders

12     from the commands to units; whereas, in reality, there were no such

13     commands and no such units.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P1577 in e-court, please.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could I ask a question before we move to

17     the next document.

18             In the paragraph following the one you read, there are strict

19     conditions on the secrecy of the planned operations.  Do you know what

20     the reason was for that, that even the ICRC could not freely move around,

21     UNHCR, UNPROFOR.  They all should be -- should be forbidden any free

22     movement.

23             Perhaps we should go to the next page in B/C/S.

24             Was this common or what was the reason for that?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is this a question for me?

Page 14608

 1             This says, Mr. President, that all decisions about the intention

 2     to conduct operations are protected so that the enemy don't learn about

 3     it.  It says specifically the movement of members of UNPROFOR and workers

 4     of UNHCR, ICRC and so on, whose activities have been noted by

 5     intelligence.  Which means that our intelligence has a list of persons

 6     belonging to these organisations but who, in fact, conduct activities

 7     directed against us.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And journalists?  During the operation?  Was there

 9     anything to hide during the operation?  That journalists were not allowed

10     to report on.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I suppose that among them too

12     there were people known to intelligence and not favourably inclined to

13     us.  These corps mentioned here made up the majority of the forces in

14     this planned operation.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know of the existence of any lists of those

16     who you said were unfavorable to you, for example, among the journalists.

17     Because all journalists apparently were banned.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't receive -- I'm not

19     receiving interpretation.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Can you hear me now in a language you understand?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I heard it now.

22             I did not have such a list, and probably the intelligence organ

23     had no need to send me one.  Such lists would sooner be forwarded to the

24     units --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  I didn't ask whether you had

Page 14609

 1     such a list.  I asked you whether you -- you knew about the existence of

 2     such lists.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In conversations, I heard

 4     intelligence guys mention such lists.  It's part of their

 5     counter-intelligence activity.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm addressing both parties.  Is there any evidence

 7     about the existence of specifically those persons under -- in these

 8     groups that would be suspected of not sticking to their mission but to

 9     act unfavourably?  And I'm talking about UNHCR, ICRC, journalists.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm not aware of any -- of any lists about --

11     about that.  I do remember comments about individual journalists made

12     over the time period.  But lists, no.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.  If you say you would need more time to

14     think about it or to ask members of your team, then, of course, I would

15     accept that.

16             MR. LUKIC:  We would have to check probably EDS --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             MR. LUKIC:  -- I'm not aware right now.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Because the witness relies on it, therefore I

20     wondered whether there was any evidence which would support his -- his

21     evidence, although he was assuming, I think, a few things without actual

22     knowledge.

23             Let's proceed.

24             MR. LUKIC:  May I consult with the client for a minute.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You may, if he uses his voice at low volume.

Page 14610

 1                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Low volume.  Low volume means not audible.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             We are finished with this document.  We can move on.  Thanks.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please move on.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Now I need P1577.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] General, we can see on the screen in front of us

 9     a document of the 24th of October, 1994, from the Main Staff of the Army

10     of Republika Srpska.

11             In your previous testimony, I found something interesting about

12     this document, where you say that the document is not addressed to any of

13     the sectors.

14             Do you see that also in this document?

15        A.   No, it's not addressed to any unit or sector.

16        Q.   And should it have been addressed to anyone?

17        A.   This is an order -- or an instruction, I can't tell.  Perhaps

18     it's in the text.  Something that should be implemented by subordinate

19     units.  Perhaps it's contained at the bottom of the page, but it refers

20     to all the units, the intelligence security units and organs.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, if we could go to the last page to clarify

23     that.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Can we go to the last page, please.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] General, we can see that this is signed by

Page 14611

 1     General Ratko Mladic.  In the original, on the left-hand side, do you

 2     recognise General Mladic's signature?

 3        A.   It says here "for."  It does say "Commander, Colonel

 4     General Ratko Mladic," but by hand, it's written "za," "for," and signed.

 5        Q.   Can we agree that this is not General Mladic's signature?

 6        A.   That's right, it is not.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would now need to look at the

 8     first page again.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But if I can help, it says here in

10     the last sentence:

11             "Forward these instructions and inform of their content all

12     commanders of units and institutions down to battalion level."

13             Meaning down to the regiments and brigades.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I do agree that this is not General Mladic's

16     signature.  And there -- you may recall we have heard evidence from a VRS

17     officer who this is.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore --

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Do you recognise the signature?

21        A.   I'm not sure, but I think this is Zdravko Tolimir's signature.

22        Q.   The document does contain the type of work that General Tolimir

23     was doing.

24        A.   Yes.  It does refer to the work of the organs that he led.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the first page of the

Page 14612

 1     document now, please.  Can we look at this part of the heading with the

 2     numbers, please.

 3        Q.   Are you familiar with the number that the document is registered

 4     under?

 5        A.   This is 18.  That number, I think, refers to the log-book of the

 6     intelligence security sector.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now ...

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Now I'm going to ask you something about the time when you went

11     to Jasenica.  That is the western part of the front; is that right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   While you were there, did you receive combat reports from the

14     Main Staff?

15        A.   I talked about that in my previous testimony.  Those reports that

16     were written to the Supreme Command and to the corps were sent to the

17     Main Staff forward command post or posts, if there were several of them.

18     So they would be sent to one or to all of them, if there were more than

19     one.

20             I think this is also in the heading of some reports that

21     Mr. McCloskey showed to me yesterday, that the IKM of the Main Staff is

22     also mentioned.

23        Q.   Who signed the regular combat reports?

24        A.   The block signature would be the Chief of the Main Staff,

25     General Milovanovic.  After a certain period of time, the signature would

Page 14613

 1     say, "Representing the Chief of Staff, Major-General Radivoje Miletic."

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think we were using the word "zastupa" which

 4     has normally been translated into "standing in" and it's a slightly

 5     different terminology, I believe, in the VRS.  Just, Mr. Lukic, may be

 6     able to help.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you, in your questions, I think,

 8     "standing in" and "for" or "standing in for" was one of your favourite

 9     subjects.

10             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know about that.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you check whether there's any chance that your

12     question may have been misunderstood by the witness or ... or by us.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It would also be helpful for the interpreters to

14     have one of these documents because then they will see the CLSS

15     translation.  Because somehow "representing" got in there, and I think we

16     should try to be consistent on this if it's going to be something --

17             MR. LUKIC:  I'm not going again to ask about "standing in" but

18     about the period of time when the signature of General Milovanovic

19     appeared on those documents.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Okay.  That's fine.

21             Mr. McCloskey has some concern about an inconsistency on a --

22     very much a detail of the language used in documents.  Could you, perhaps

23     even together with CLSS, make a short agenda saying, If this appears, the

24     proper translation is that, if that appears, so that we don't have to go

25     through all of the translations of all of the documents if there possibly

Page 14614

 1     are any mistakes.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, yes, and like many things here,

 3     this has been done before and, as I'm sure the Defence will agree,

 4     General Milovanovic was in the Krajina for many, many days in 1995, and

 5     he has gone through all those reports and identified all the times that

 6     he was gone and all the times that it says "standing in."  And that's

 7     what you're talking about.  General Milovanovic will be here.  But the

 8     term "representing," when that gets thrown into the mix, that complicates

 9     things.  That's my only objection.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  There are two ways, Mr. McCloskey.  Either we ask

11     for a formal verification of translation or you have pointed at a term

12     which is unfamiliar to you, knowing a lot of these documents.

13             One of the two.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The translations are fine.  It just -- I think

15     caught the booth off guard.  If they'd seen the actual translation, they

16     would have been fine.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let me -- let me see.  When I said

18     "verification of the translation," I should have said "verification of

19     the interpretation."

20             Do you seek that or do you think that you have sufficiently drawn

21     our attention to this matter?  It's up to you.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yeah, I don't want to try to control the booth.

23     I think they do a great job, but I just I know this "representation" word

24     is problematic and perhaps they'll think about it and ...

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could we hear from the booth.  I think we all

Page 14615

 1     share our admiration and appreciation for the great work done.

 2             Is there any chance that "represented" would be better translated

 3     by - and now I hope not to make any mistake - "standing in"?

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Your Honours, "zastupati" does translate into

 5     English as "standing in for."

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   So it would happen that in the signature it would say that a

 9     report was signed by General Milovanovic, even though, at the same time,

10     he was with you in the western sector of the front.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Well, it's obvious that he could not have signed that, but that

13     somebody signed that in his name; is that correct?

14        A.   Mr. Lukic, the document that would come under encryption does not

15     contain a signature.  It would just contain a typed signature.

16             Mr. McCloskey knows that in one proceedings here I talked about

17     General Miletic and how this came about.  And if you like, I can explain

18     that.

19        Q.   Well, let me just ask you about that briefly.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I am going to object now and if he does have a --

22     such a document, he should show it to the witness because my recollection

23     is all those documents say "standing in for the commander" -- or, sorry,

24     "standing in for the Chief of Staff."

25             And so it's very clear, it's not one of these documents that is

Page 14616

 1     under the name of the person and it's not clear because it's a teletype.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you commenting on the answer of the witness or

 3     are you objecting to a question?

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm objecting.  He is suggesting something that I

 5     do not believe is reflected in the evidence.  If he has an example of

 6     that, he should show it.  My recollection is the documents that are going

 7     to the president, they say:  General Miletic standing in for the Chief of

 8     Staff.  There may be some that are Milovanovic, that you can't tell, but

 9     I don't think so and I'd like to see them if they are before he puts that

10     in a question.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Exactly.  Could you give line -- we're on page 53.

12     Where exactly it is, Mr. McCloskey, that you're objecting to?  Page and

13     line number, please.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  What I see on page 52, starting line 14:

15             "Well, it's obvious that he could not have signed that but that

16     somebody signed that in his name; is that correct?"

17             And then also above that, line 10:

18             "So it would happen that in a signature it would say that a

19     report was signed by General Milovanovic even though, at the same time,

20     he was with you ..."

21             My point is, it does not say that it was signed by Milovanovic.

22     It says, it's my recollection, Miletic standing in for Milovanovic.  That

23     may be the point Mr. Lukic is trying to get across, but I don't want to

24     leave the impression that he's leaving in that question because it's not

25     correct.  And I go back to my original point, if we just put a document

Page 14617

 1     up there that he is referring to, it would all be clear.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  At the moment, I don't have the document.  I -- I

 4     don't have it, the number, so I can call it but I --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but if you --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  The basis of my question was 65 ter number 29091,

 7     uploaded by the Prosecution as the witness statement of this witness.

 8     And it -- in e-court, page 27, we can find the same -- almost the same

 9     words uttered by this gentleman.

10             So if we go to 65 ter 29091, e-court page 27, which corresponds

11     to page 28233 from the 14th of November, 2008, testimony in Popovic

12     trial.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Lines 10 to 16.  I will read.

15             "Q.  In that part of the front line in the forward command post

16     in question, from Manojlo Milovanovic was there from the end of October,

17     wasn't he?  Do you know whose signatures did combat reports bear?

18             "A.  Since it was an encrypted communication, in the bottom left

19     part of each telegram, there was the so-called block signature featuring

20     the chief of General Staff, Colonel General Manojlo Milovanovic, but we

21     doubt his actual signature."

22             So that was the base of my question.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The inference in the question was that it was not

24     clear from the document who was signing when it in fact is from the

25     document.  You can see it says "standing in for."

Page 14618

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, Mr. Lukic, having heard all the problems

 2     raised by Mr. McCloskey, is there any way that you could rephrase your

 3     question in such a way that you get the answer you're seeking, and, at

 4     the same time, that Mr. McCloskey doesn't further object?

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I can withdraw the question.  It is nothing crucial

 7     for us at the moment.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  The question is withdrawn.  We leave it to

 9     that .

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  There's another point you should be familiar with

11     as Mr. Lukic --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it a matter for re-examination Mr. McCloskey

13     or ...

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, I think it helps clear up why I'm concerned

15     with this point.  And it shouldn't be anything that could cause the

16     witness a problem and it's short.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Very short, yes.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  You have seen Bratunac Brigade reports that are

19     typed sign under the name of Vidoje Blagojevic, when Vidoje Blagojevic

20     was at Zepa and they brought that out very clearly and that's a fair

21     point and that was part of what they wanted to get across that we don't

22     contest.  This is not that situation, and I don't want you to be confused

23     and think it is.  Because it's a very different document with very

24     different communications but they're making it sound like it is.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You said you would keep it short.  I think to the

Page 14619

 1     extent you would show further any documents to the witness, you can do so

 2     in re-examination and we should not yet end up in argument at this

 3     moment.

 4             Mr. Lukic, question withdrawn, please proceed.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  With one remark that we'll try to find the document

 6     with that --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm certain that Mr. McCloskey will appreciate that.

 8     And so will the Chamber.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  May I proceed, Your Honour?  Thank you.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] We don't bother you with this anymore, but we

11     are still at the forward command post on the western front, and you're

12     still there with General Milovanovic.

13             Is it true that General Milovanovic, while he was staying at the

14     forward command post, had all -- all necessary means of communication

15     available?

16        A.   Yes.  At forward command posts, all types of communications are

17     set up that also exist at the basic command post, only to a lesser

18     extent.  There are communications lines going to the superior command, to

19     the subordinates, and the basic command post.

20        Q.   What does TKT stand for?  Could you please explain.

21        A.   Confidential commanding of troops.  It's an abbreviation.

22        Q.   What are TKT documents?

23        A.   They're documents that are compiled and through which command is

24     carried out in order to protect the confidentiality of documents.

25     Operatives do that.  It's part of cryptographic protection.  Keys are

Page 14620

 1     changed often so the one listening in on our communications would have to

 2     have the required key to know what the communication was about.

 3        Q.   Now to set up a link with this topic, is it true that for someone

 4     to be able to exercise command, he would have to have both a means of

 5     communication and a TKT?

 6        A.   Yes.  In principle, that's true.

 7        Q.   Apart from regular combat reports, General Milovanovic also

 8     received oral reports from the VRS Main Staff.  Is that true?

 9        A.   I wasn't with him all the time, but communication lines were

10     available.  Since I was staying at the command post most of the time, if

11     General Milovanovic was delayed, I would receive calls from the

12     Main Staff and speak about the situation in the area.  To what extent he

13     communicated and with whom, I cannot say.

14        Q.   At any rate, General Milovanovic, had he not had these means of

15     communication or those TKT documents, he wouldn't have been able to

16     follow the situation in the theatre of war?

17        A.   He would have been able to the same extent as corps commands.

18     Because the reports from the Main Staff that we drafted for the

19     Supreme Command were also sent to corps commands and to forward command

20     posts of the Main Staff.  So if a report goes to the Supreme Command, the

21     one at the forward command post of the Main Staff will also get it.

22        Q.   So they would only be in a position to receive written reports.

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter, from the Prosecutor's list,

25     25931, please.  It's a short document.  It should be possible to display

Page 14621

 1     it on one screen.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could it be enlarged a bit?

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Can you see it?  Please read it.  No, you don't have to read it

 5     out aloud.

 6        A.   I understand.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Can we see the second page in English so we see the

 8     signature.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Can we go back in English version to the first page.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] We see that the Herzegovina Corps Command, on

12     the 1st of August, 1995, sent a communication from its forward command

13     post number 1.  It is very urgent.  And to whom do they send their

14     communication?

15        A.   It says to the Main Staff of the VRS, then the 2nd Krajina Corps,

16     and to General Mladic personally.

17        Q.   According to this document, where was General Mladic located?

18        A.   The Command of the Herzegovina Corps has information that

19     General Mladic was staying with the 2nd Krajina Corps.  That's why this

20     was sent to the Main Staff; more specifically, the 2nd Krajina Corps, and

21     General Mladic personally who was there.  So they know where he was.

22             They are requesting that the neighbouring corps - and that's the

23     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps - take over the features taken because it's in

24     the zone of responsibility of the latter corps anyway.  But since the

25     Herzegovina Corps cannot command the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, they are

Page 14622

 1     turning to General Mladic to order the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps to do

 2     what's required here.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I'm closing to an end.  So maybe we could make a

 5     break now and I can reorganise my questions, and I will probably have a

 6     couple of more minutes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Couple of more minutes.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take the break first.

10             We'll first have the witness escorted out of the courtroom.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And we resume at 1.30.  Half past 1.00.

13             Mr. McCloskey, is the next witness ready to start the

14     examination?

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I have to check.  I'm not sure.  I won't have too

16     much ...

17                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Oh, Janet tells me they are ready.  And I don't

19     have too much re-direct.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then prepare for every possible way of

21     proceeding.

22             We'll take the break and resume at 1.30.

23                           --- Recess taken at 1.12 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

Page 14623

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4        Q.   General, we're wrapping up.  Before I continue with you, I'll

 5     have to address the Trial Chamber.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender 1D1100.  That's a

 7     decision from the Official Gazette about the establishment of a state

 8     committee.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Just one second.

11             No objections, Mr. McCloskey.

12             I apologise for being -- my attention was drawn in a different

13     direction for a second.

14             Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1100 receives number D336,

16     Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             And another document we used today, 65 ter 14596.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You tender that as well?

21             Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 14596 receives number D337,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D337 is admitted into evidence.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All right.  This is done now.

Page 14624

 1             Could we please see 65 ter 25569.

 2        Q.   You will see, General, that it's an agreement on the disarmament

 3     of able-bodied persons in the Zepa enclave.  Did you know at the time

 4     that this agreement had been reached?

 5        A.   I heard of the agreement, but I didn't see it then.

 6        Q.   In the preamble, preceding para 1, we read that on the

 7     25th of July, 1995, the following agreement was reached between

 8     Rajko Kusic on one side and Hamdija Kolak from the other side.  It says

 9     "Kolak" but I believe it should be "Torlak" instead.  Do you know?

10        A.   I think Torlak is more likely, but I'm not sure.

11        Q.   I clipped a part of this document from another version, but never

12     mind that.

13             In the presence of Sejmon Dudnjik as UNPROFOR's representative.

14     You knew that the Ukrainian battalion was in Zepa, right?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think we could agree that that is

17     Hamdija Torlak, it should be.  That this is a typo or a mistake of some

18     sort.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Did you know that Mr. Dudnjik was the commander of this Ukrainian

21     battalion at Zepa?

22        A.   No, I didn't.

23        Q.   After this agreement was reached, civilians started leaving Zepa;

24     right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 14625

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask a few questions to start with.

 2             I point some matters which my attention is drawn to.  The

 3     document starts by saying:

 4             "Today, the 25th of July, 1995 ..."

 5             At the very end of the document, it says:

 6             "24th of July, 1995, 18.30 hours."

 7             Paragraph 11 of the agreement says:

 8             "The agreement shall come into the effect immediately after

 9     signing."

10             I looked in e-court, and I did not find either of the versions,

11     English or B/C/S, to be signed.  So that these are a few matters before

12     we start asking about ... I've got no idea what it is.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the English signature block, we see now the

14     right name Torlak, as agreed by the parties.  But the first name is

15     different from here.  It is Hakija instead of Hamdija.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  So these are five preliminary questions apart from

17     that Mr. Mladic is also someone at the bottom mentioned as someone

18     apparently expected to sign this document.  These are all the -- we are

19     lawyers, Mr. Lukic, so, therefore, I would like to draw your attention to

20     this.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22             Actually, I have completely different cutout from the same,

23     allegedly the same document.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  This apparently what was uploaded into e-court.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.  We'll try probably to replace it, then,

Page 14626

 1     because I have D51 from Tolimir case and it's completely -- completely

 2     different document, completely differently typed.  So we'll probably

 3     see --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it signed?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I don't have that cutout so I don't see it.  And I

 6     don't have that document --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  -- because it's under different number --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps to clarify, D51 seems to be the number

11     from Tolimir case.

12             MR. LUKIC:  From Tolimir case, yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now let's proceed, but please keep in the back

14     of your mind that all these questions are still without an answer for the

15     Chamber, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

17             I used 65 ter number.  Maybe it was more wise for me to upload,

18     but it is obviously too late now.  We'll do it probably in a couple of

19     days and try to use with somebody else.  But I think that even without

20     the document, I can pose a couple of more questions to this witness.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We do have a signed document.  Though that

22     doesn't resolve other issues with this --

23             MR. LUKIC:  With Hakija and Hamdija?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No.  I was thinking of whether it was an

25     agreement or not.

Page 14627

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Oh.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, please -- the text of the document is the

 4     same, more or less, Mr. McCloskey, then we can continue.  And we are now

 5     informed that, most likely, a signed copy can be produced.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And could I ask, nevertheless, Mr. McCloskey, four

 9     signatures?

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Stewart is nodding yes so I would not --

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  More reliable source, yes.

13                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we can, of course, print one out right away.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  If -- if you could do that, then we could have a

16     look at it.

17             Could we ... let's proceed, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm just receiving

19     information from General Mladic that he thinks that he did not sign this

20     document but we'll --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll have a look at the printed-out version.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Is it true, General, that after the departure of

24     civilians from Zepa, armed Muslim units at Zepa failed to act upon this

25     signed document?

Page 14628

 1        A.   I know that they stalled for time in honouring the disarmament

 2     agreement.  That is why at the trials where I gave evidence, I got

 3     acquainted with documents Tolimir sent to the Main Staff in the context

 4     of exchanges, and I knew that the Muslim -- or, rather, he said that the

 5     Muslim side was dragging their feet --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please explain again what he

 7     said about exchanges.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hasan Muratovic went to meet him at

 9     the airport and asked to be received by Slobodan Milosevic.  He wanted

10     that -- that armed brigade to cross the border to enter Serbia.  And that

11     was accepted.  They were promised refugee status in Serbia, although they

12     were armed.  That's what I learned from Carl Bildt's book.  So Tolimir's

13     assessment was well founded.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   All right.  General, thank you very much.  Thank you for

16     answering our questions.  And at this time, we have no questions for you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

18             The interpreters in the previous answer said that they asked the

19     witness to explain what he said about exchanges.

20             Now, I don't know, Mr. Lukic, whether you were able to follow it

21     in the original language and whether there's any need to ask the witness

22     to do it still.

23             MR. LUKIC:  There is no any need -- need.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  There's no need.

25             Mr. McCloskey, any need for re-examination of the witness.

Page 14629

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  I would hope 15 or

 2     20 minutes and perhaps shorter, depending on the answers.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, please proceed.  And I leave it your hands

 4     whether it still makes sense, if you say possibly shorter, to ask the

 5     next witness to remain stand by, but ...

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  She's here.  I think standby is fine.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we start with P1785.

 9                           Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

10        Q.   And, General, just to -- this -- this is a Main Staff document to

11     the president that was the subject of a discussion we had regarding

12     standing in or whether it was Milovanovic's name on these when he was out

13     in the Krajina.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So if we could go to the last -- now that we see

15     what this is, can we go to the last page.

16             And we -- we see here clearly it's ... and -- well, if we could

17     blow up the -- the one down, the Serbian.  Where we can read the Serbian

18     as something like "zastupa" and then we see clearly in the English,

19     "standing in for the Chief of Staff" and it's Major-General Miletic.

20        Q.   Do you recall whether this was the -- the basic layout of most of

21     the -- such reports to the president during that time that

22     General Milovanovic was in the Krajina?

23        A.   Yes.  It states here, "standing in for."  Not for the Chief of

24     Staff but standing in for the Chief of Staff, General -- Major-General

25     Radivoje Miletic.

Page 14630

 1             After a certain period of time, while I was in the west, this

 2     started to appear.  Probably due to the fact that General Milovanovic, in

 3     his communication with Miletic, asked him to put this.  I've already said

 4     before this Tribunal that during a morning coffee, when a report like

 5     this arrived at the forward command post, General Jovo Maric was present.

 6     He was the chief of the air force and anti-aircraft administration.

 7     General Milovanovic said, "Excuse me, what is this Mico fucking with me?"

 8     When we looked at him, he said, "How can I write a report to myself?"

 9     And from that time on, this is what appears:  Standing in for the Chief

10     of Staff, Major-General Radivoje Miletic.

11        Q.   Okay.  That's already in evidence.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we now go to P1087.

13        Q.   General, you talked about -- as part of any operation there

14     should be a -- I think you called it a topographic map with an approval

15     on it, and the author of the operation in the right-hand corner.  I want

16     to show you an original map that was obtained in a search of

17     General Zivanovic's Serbian residence.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's page 25 in e-court.  And we have -- if we

19     could get some help, I think we've got an original that Ms. Stewart --

20     the Court may recall seeing this before when Mr. Ivetic and I were

21     showing maps.

22             If everybody could just take a look at it.  And make sure that

23     General Mladic sees it.

24             And you're going to hurt the witness's neck if we can't -- well,

25     I guess you're not there to change it.

Page 14631

 1        Q.   General, is this what you had in mind when you talked about a

 2     topographic map showing the approval?

 3        A.   Yes, this is a decision by the commander of the Drina Corps for

 4     active combat approved by the commander, Major-General, we have the title

 5     at the top, and then in the right-hand corner, it's signed by the person

 6     who drafted the documents.

 7        Q.   Do you recognise the signature of the commander of the Main Staff

 8     up in the left-hand corner?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   That's General Mladic's signature?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Let's go to another topic.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we can get back that to Ms. Stewart.  There's

14     no other questions on that.  If the -- thank you.  That's all right.

15        Q.   Now, my notes say that on page 67 yesterday, lines 9 through 10,

16     that you stated that whenever a new directive is issued, the previous

17     directive is no longer in force.  And you were talking about the time,

18     Directive 7 and Directive 7/1.  And I think the Defence would agree with

19     me that Directive 7 is dated March 8th, 1995.  The cover letter sending

20     it to the corps was dated March 17th, 1995.  And the date on

21     Directive 7/1 is March 31st, 1995.

22             So if we take you at your word, General, the Directive 7 would

23     have only been in force for three weeks.  That can't be right, can it?

24        A.   That depends on the situation at the front.  Here, it's in force

25     in that part where the auxiliary forces are being issued their

Page 14632

 1     assignments, that is the 1st Krajina Corps, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps,

 2     and the Herzegovina Corps.  That's where they are told that they are to

 3     act pursuant to the tasks issued in Directive 7/1.  The main body of the

 4     force, in order to carry out the Sadejstvo operation, the 1st Krajina

 5     Corps, the Eastern Bosnia Corps, the Drina Corps, and the air force and

 6     anti-aircraft defence, they were given a different assignment, not the

 7     one that is stated in Directive 7.  So the authors of the directive

 8     provided the assignments to one set of forces according to Directive 7,

 9     and the -- the tasks to the main body of the force is new in

10     Directive 7/1.

11        Q.   Okay.  I -- that does hopefully clear up a bit of that answer.  I

12     won't get into that in any more detail.

13             And, lastly, we just saw a document and some questions from

14     Mr. Lukic, I think there was a gazette, a law about the formation of a

15     civilian body to control UN and humanitarian convoys.

16             And I have an audio I want to play to you to see if you can

17     comment on it.  And -- but before I play that audio, were you -- were you

18     aware that -- if General Mladic or perhaps the security folks at the

19     Main Staff were ever taping their own communications between people and

20     the outside, or with -- with -- inside the Main Staff?

21        A.   I'm not aware of that.  I don't know.

22        Q.   All right.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And this is from an audiotape that was retrieved

24     from the residence of General Mladic in one of those searches.  It's

25     65 ter 1711A, and I have not dealt with this product before but we should

Page 14633

 1     have a transcript and I hope that it's hearable.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's not provided to the booth, the

 3     transcripts?  I -- it has been.  I -- I rely on the nodding of yes by

 4     Ms. Stewart.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good idea.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 7                           [Audiotape played]

 8             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Please let me -- let me just list

 9     it.  It's fact number 9 ..."

10                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could for this first time perhaps ask the

12     interpreters not to say anything so we can listen to it --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  What we'll do is we play it first without

14     translation -- translation of -- we see that there's also transcription

15     on our screens.  And perhaps if, during the second round, after the

16     interpreters have had an opportunity to listen first, then to see whether

17     we can receive translation.

18                           [Audiotape played]

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  That was -- that was one playing.

20     Should we play it again?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please play it again and then we'll ...

22             Mr. ...

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Low volume.  Mr. Mladic, low volume.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, you stopped at 1 minute,

Page 14634

 1     30 [Realtime transcript read in error "0"] seconds.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll play it again.  Have the interpreters

 4     have had an opportunity to listen to it and was it sufficiently audible

 5     to do their job?

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Your Honours, the tape is very, very inaudible,

 7     so if we read what we have, we cannot actually listen to the tape at the

 8     same time.  So basically we would be reading from the transcript.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's then proceed on this basis, and if there's any

10     comment on the accuracy of the -- of the English translation as

11     transcribed, Mr. Lukic, we'd like to hear from you.  Of course, not at

12     this very moment but you have an opportunity to further verify the

13     accuracy of translation and transcription.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The -- my remark was not properly recorded.  I

15     said you stopped at 1 minute, 30 seconds.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That is hereby corrected.  Could we play it again

17     from the beginning.

18                           [Audiotape played]

19             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Please let me just list it.  It's

20     fact number 9.  Then, mate, they again stopped the crossing over Nisici

21     plateau in the direction of Visoko.  And now when it started pounding on

22     Sarajevo from the Nisici plateau, they did not send anyone to Srebrenica,

23     to Zepa.  They made a safe area for the Turks in Srebrenica, Zepa,

24     Gorazde, Bihac, Sarajevo, Tuzla.  Not in the Muslim-controlled part of

25     Sarajevo, nor in Capljina, nor in Mostar, nor in Zenica, nor in Tuzla.

Page 14635

 1     Although I asked for that, where we -- and they have become, damn it, a

 2     service of UNPROFOR and the international community.  How many

 3     humanitarian aid convoys will come about which they argued with me for a

 4     year.  And until I took everything, did not let anything through, I would

 5     not have taken Srebrenica or Zepa.  If I had not starved them in the

 6     winter, since February I let them through only one or two convoys.  But

 7     then, for example, at that time it didn't even cross their minds to come

 8     and see, except that Tomo Kovac came five days later, after the

 9     liberation of Srebrenica to look at the factory and if there was

10     something he could steal from it, as he has been doing up to now.  This

11     is his only task.  Among themselves -- you see first while there was in

12     Pretis and when they had all looted all our factories with parts of the

13     MUP Ministry of Interior of Serbia -- of individuals looted everybody."

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Your Honours, we do not believe that what we

15     read actually corresponded to what is here.  The sound quality was too

16     poor for a faithful interpretation.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, under the circumstances I think we

18     should work this out better.  If you have any question in relation to

19     what you think was said approximately, if you could phrase it in such a

20     way that we are not relying directly on the text in this -- on this

21     audio.

22             It -- it seems, but correct me when I'm wrong, that at least

23     there was comment by the person speaking on convoys, humanitarian

24     convoys, and influence on those convoys over various periods of time.

25     And I leave it to that at this moment.

Page 14636

 1             Could I -- I'm not asking the interpreters to confirm this, yes

 2     or no, but on the basis of such a suggestion, and it will turn out to be

 3     right or wrong, that has to be explored in further detail, you may put

 4     some questions to the witness.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  And I will get together with

 6     the Defence on this small portion.  This has been very carefully gone

 7     over, as you need to do, obviously, with something like this, what cannot

 8     be done in a courtroom, and I am confident that it is accurate, but we'll

 9     work on that so you have better -- better information before you.

10        Q.   General, I know you've heard a lot of radio traffic in your time

11     and that a -- your practiced ear.  You recognised that voice, didn't you?

12        A.   Yes.  I recognised the voice of General Mladic.  But I did not

13     understand who he was addressing.  And I could see that he was quite

14     angry, outraged.

15        Q.   Did you, in your time with General Mladic, know that he was angry

16     that safe areas were not made for the areas that he -- he noted in

17     this -- in this audio, that just, for whatever reason, the Muslims got

18     the safe areas and the Serbs didn't?

19        A.   Well, I can speak about specific things.  I know that in the

20     context -- in contacts it was not just that he was dissatisfied.  We were

21     all dissatisfied about the treatment of the sides to the conflict.

22        Q.   So did you share some of the concerns that he was voicing in

23     this -- in this short audio?

24        A.   The dissatisfaction was generally similar regarding the attitude

25     or the position of the peacekeeping forces and other organisations from

Page 14637

 1     the UNHCR, the International Committee of the Red Cross, Doctors Without

 2     Borders, because the situation in the area and the events demonstrated a

 3     certain partiality towards the other two sides, the Muslim and the

 4     Croatian side, in relation to the Serb side.

 5        Q.   And we were translated a comment that:  But not for starving the

 6     enclaves, the VRS would not have taken them.

 7             Something to that degree.  Can you tell us what you heard, if

 8     anything, on that topic?  What you heard him say?

 9        A.   I did not understand what starving referred to.  He was talking

10     about Gorazde to Zepa, the protected enclaves.  And he was mentioning --

11     or he was asking for protected zones or enclaves to be formed for the

12     Serbian side, Mostar, Zenica.  I don't know where else.  I didn't

13     understand this part.  There was a lot of background noise in the

14     headphones.  And I don't know whom he was addressing, who he was talking.

15        Q.   Okay, General.  Thank you.  That's, of course, not your job.  So

16     I have no further questions.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

18             Mr. Lukic, any further questions?

19             MR. LUKIC:  Just one.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21             MR. LUKIC:  We don't have to call that large map, it's P1087.

22     And it's the map on Srebrenica action, operation.

23                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] General, we have information that General Mladic

25     signed this map on the 13th of July, 1995, but after the entire action

Page 14638

 1     was finished.  Do you know anything about that?  Do you know when

 2     General Mladic signed this map?

 3        A.   I don't know the exact date, but I seem to remember that he did

 4     that after the fact once the assignment from this order was executed, the

 5     order that was drafted by the Drina Corps.  I don't know if it was Krstic

 6     or somebody else gave it to him to sign.  I wasn't present but that is

 7     the information that I have.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  This would be all our questions for you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Since the Bench has no further questions for you,

10     Mr. Obradovic, this concludes your testimony in this court.  I'd like to

11     thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered all

12     the questions that were put to you, and whether by the parties or by the

13     Judges, and I wish you a safe return home again.

14             You may follow the usher.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16             I have one request, if you permit me to greet General Mladic.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not common to do that, but the mere fact that

18     you've expressed the wish to do that may be sufficient.  And he has heard

19     that because that has been translated to Mr. Mladic.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, would you please remain to be seated.

22             Mr. Mladic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, General, sir.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 14639

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, your behaviour in this respect was

 3     inappropriate.  We established that at this very moment it has no

 4     consequences but it is hereby on the record.

 5             We will adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday,

 6     the 18th of July, at 9.30 in the morning, in Courtroom III.

 7                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.14 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of July,

 9                           2013, at 9.30 a.m.