Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15307

 1                           Tuesday, 20 August 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.  Mr. Registrar, would you

 6     please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honour.  This is

 8     case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             Mr. Ivetic, we are still waiting for a response which it was

11     announced you would give to us, 30 or 60 days.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, 30 days for the 11th Prosecution

13     motion to amend the 65 ter list.  I've checked and that was what we

14     sought and that would be up until including 16 September 2013.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Having received now the Defence's response,

16     the Chamber considers the large number of documents covered by the

17     Prosecution's motion and therefore the Chamber grants the Defence request

18     for an extension of 30 days and hereby gets the new deadline of

19     16th of September to respond.

20             Having dealt with this, if there are no other preliminaries,

21     could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23                           WITNESS:  DUSAN JANC [Resumed]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Janc.

25             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

Page 15308

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to remind you that you are still bound by

 2     the solemn declaration you've given yesterday.  That is that you will

 3     tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  Mr. Ivetic

 4     will now continue his cross-examination.

 5             Mr. Ivetic.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]

 8        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 9        A.   Good morning.

10        Q.   I'd like to now ask you something about the so-called secondary

11     mass graves in this case.  First of all, am I correct that in relation to

12     the secondary graves, the information that the Prosecution has from its

13     investigation is that these graves were dug in the time period of

14     September and October of 1995?

15        A.   Yes, correct.

16        Q.   And if we could now take a look together at P1481 in e-court and

17     if we can have a look at page 7 of this document, and, sir, first of all

18     I ask if you are familiar with this map or the information that is

19     depicted therein.

20        A.   Yes, I am.

21        Q.   And if we can focus for a moment on the green dots, would you

22     agree with me that the green dots are, in fact, these -- most of these

23     secondary graves that we have been talking about?

24        A.   Yes, correct.

25        Q.   Now, in terms of the path taken by the Bosnian Muslim column

Page 15309

 1     leaving Srebrenica in July of 1995, and the places of known combat or

 2     ambush engagements experienced by that column, would you agree with me

 3     that the green dots depicting the sites of secondary graves are located

 4     nearby, within several kilometres of the sites where the column

 5     encountered combat or ambush engagements?

 6        A.   Yes, some of them, yes, but not all of them.  Those on the north

 7     part of the map, they would be close to those sites, yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, in the Popovic case, you were asked about

 9     assessments given by various sources for the combat casualties that were

10     suffered by the Bosnian Muslim column that left Srebrenica for Tuzla in

11     July of 1995.  Do you recall that one of the items that you were

12     presented with were some statements of Bosnian Muslims who had been

13     members of the column and who had given assessments of the numbers of

14     dead that they saw?  Do you recall that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   I'd like to revisit some of the testimony on that topic by

17     looking at 1D1196, page 33 in e-court and that should correlate to

18     transcript page 33599 of that transcript.

19             And I'd like to focus on the first 13 lines of this transcript,

20     sir, and if you can follow along, I'll have some questions for you after

21     the -- after we review it.  It reads as follows:

22             "Q.  Sir, is there any reason that you know of that we should

23     doubt what this witness on Exhibit 2D669 had reported to the ICTY

24     investigator in January 1996?

25             "A.  Yes.  First of all, we have the number of surface remains

Page 15310

 1     collected in this area and you can find the total of them.  It's a little

 2     bit more than 500 in this Pobudje area so far identified which you can

 3     find it in my report.  Second, I'm wondering how accurate this number is.

 4     In order to assess the number, you need some special, I would say,

 5     training.  It's not that easy.  As police officer, I can say that there

 6     is a special training in order to assess how many people is gathered, for

 7     example, in one place.  So -- and if you are not trained in that, so you

 8     can be -- you can be wrong easily."

 9             First of all, sir, do you affirm that this transcript excerpt

10     accurately depicts your testimony on this point?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And is such testimony truthful such that you would so repeat the

13     same today if asked these questions?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, you talk here about special training as a police officer.

16     So I'd like to ask you, sir, did you undergo any special training as a

17     police officer to assess the number of people gathered or perhaps to

18     assess casualties, the number of casualties, in the course of performing

19     your duties?

20        A.   Not me personally during my career but some of my colleagues did

21     attend such training or -- especially those who were dealing with public

22     peace and order.

23        Q.   Would you permit that military persons might likewise have a

24     training or developed skill necessary for their work to accurately

25     determine and estimate how many people are gathered or how many people

Page 15311

 1     are injured or killed in a given area?

 2        A.   You know, it would be a speculation but some of them might be.

 3     It's the same like police officers.  You see myself, I haven't received

 4     any training on that but only a specific certain of my colleagues they

 5     did receive such training so I would not generalise in that sense.

 6        Q.   At the time that you gave the answer in the Popovic case that we

 7     have up on our screen that we just went through, did you at that time

 8     know what kind of career training the witnesses in question had, perhaps

 9     in the military, which might affect the reliability of the estimates that

10     they gave as to casualties?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   If we can finish up with the tail end of this page, it's on the

13     screen, it's line 20 through 25, and the question is recorded as follows:

14             "Q.  Well, what endeavours did the Office of the Prosecution take

15     in order to determine out of the numbers that you've put in your report,

16     the 5300 or so, how many were actually as a result of casualties from

17     walking over land mines?  Did you do that analysis?

18             "A.  No, I did not.

19             "Q.  Do you know of anyone who did at the Office of the

20     Prosecution?"

21             MR. IVETIC:  If we can go to the next page.

22        Q.   "A.  I think no one did it.

23             "Q.  Okay.  How about did anyone do an investigation or at the

24     least undertake the process to determine how many people from this

25     military column that was leaving from Susnjari, how many died as a result

Page 15312

 1     of self-inflicted wounds or suicide?

 2             "A.  No.  There were no such investigation.

 3             "Q.  Okay.  How about as a result of these legitimate combat

 4     engagements?  When the VRS attacked the legitimate column of military

 5     men, did anybody investigate to determine how many actually died as a

 6     result of that combat engagement?

 7             "A.  No.  I'm not aware of any such investigation.

 8             "Q.  Not doing any of the investigation on at least those three

 9     and other areas, did you investigate whether or not any of those people

10     who died as a result of either suicide, mines, land mines, or combat

11     engagements, whether anyone buried those individuals?

12             "A.  Yeah.  I was trying to find that fact but there were

13     instances regarding this Glogova, what I mentioned with my corrigendum

14     but apart from that, there was not a lot of such information."

15             First of all, sir, does this selection from the transcript

16     accurately record the answers that you gave to the questions?

17        A.  Yes.

18        Q.   Do you stand by those as being truthful such that you would so

19     testify today?

20        A.  Yes.

21        Q.   Now I'd like to go through with you one of the -- actually both

22     of the witness statements that were the subject of the questions posed to

23     you in Popovic.

24             MR. IVETIC:  If we could first call up 1D1192, but if we could

25     please not broadcast the same as I don't know if it's a person that has

Page 15313

 1     sought protective measures or not.

 2        Q.   And if we could first take a look at the title page together,

 3     sir, would you agree with me that this is a person who gave a statement

 4     to the Prosecution on the 23rd of August, 1995, and has his occupation

 5     listed as military and is a Bosnian Muslim in ethnicity?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Now I'd like to look at the next page, which also

 8     should not be broadcast.  I guess to be safe, none of the pages from this

 9     document should be broadcast.

10        Q.   The second full paragraph of this page, we see that the man was a

11     soldier and in fact a platoon commander in charge of a platoon of 33 men,

12     himself included.  Do you consider, sir, that a platoon commander has a

13     bit more of a reason to be precise as to assessing the number and extent

14     of either manpower or casualties than the average person?

15        A.   It's difficult to say.  We would need to ask this specific

16     question this particular person in order to find out the exact answer.

17        Q.   Okay.  At the bottom of the page, he starts giving his

18     descriptions of what he saw and I'd like to go through that with you.  It

19     reads as follows:

20             "As soon as I left with my group, the Serbs started machine-gun

21     fire.  I believe in order to force us in their territory.  I heard also

22     shelling in front of us, and I believe the Serbs shelled the units in

23     front of me because I saw later a lot of dead bodies, killed by shelling.

24     Ejub Golic was the commander of the Glogova unit who protected the rear,

25     was killed later.  After about 200 metres, people in the column in front

Page 15314

 1     of me stopped because they did not know the way and they had lost the

 2     sight of the brigades in front of them.  There was a path of about

 3     maximum 1 metre wide.  Those who had gone first had marked the way."

 4             MR. IVETIC:  If we can go to the next page.

 5        Q.   "And in Buljim, I and the others had been told not to leave the

 6     path and not to touch anything what was near that path, such as paper,

 7     tin cans, et cetera, because this was to mark the road in the minefield?"

 8             From this description, or from this part of the statement, is

 9     there anything that you consider renders this description to be

10     unqualified or unreliable?

11        A.   No, I don't think so.  That's his statement.

12             MR. IVETIC:  If we could go to the next paragraph on page 3, so

13     the first full paragraph at the top, I'd like to focus on that for a

14     moment.

15        Q.   The description he gives is as follows:

16             "I sent my father and brothers forward with the head of the

17     column and told them I would stay to secure the rear.  I waited about one

18     half -- about half hour because these 2- to 3.000 people passed one by

19     one.  At that time, the Chetniks started aimed shooting at us with small

20     arms.  There were a lot of wounded and killed.  Golic told us to go down

21     and take shelter to a creek.  He told us not to fire a single bullet

22     because then the Serbs would take this as a breach of the agreement for

23     the withdrawal, the ultimatum.  There at the creek, I saw five bodies,

24     two decapitated, the others mutilated, but I do not know if they died

25     from shelling or if they had been slaughtered."

Page 15315

 1             Is there anything in this section of the statement which would

 2     give you reason to discredit the accuracy or reliability of the

 3     observations of this man?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Would you agree with me that he appears to be reciting details in

 6     a manner consistent with military training as to the details to be

 7     remembered and to be reported?

 8        A.   Most probably, yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you're asking for judgement of these

10     kind of things, whereas the witness is not the one who should give that

11     judgement but it's finally the Chamber in the context of the totality of

12     the evidence.  If you ask the witness whether he has any indication why

13     this person would not have accurately told, then of course, the witness,

14     unless there is any specific issue, has to answer by -- but if he has

15     so -- the question, as long as it is, is there any fact to your

16     knowledge, fine; if it is asking the witness for a judgement, not fine.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             If we can -- I believe it's just the next paragraph now, if we

19     can look at this one, it reads as follows:

20             "About one kilometre further, every three to four minutes, one

21     grenade was fired by the Serbs.  We had a lot of wounded, civil and

22     military.  We tried not to leave behind -- leave anyone behind.  During a

23     rest period, I saw my father and brothers back.  Then a soldier came and

24     passed the order that all men who had a weapon should take position on

25     the left and right flanks of the column to protect the people as much as

Page 15316

 1     possible.  I saw one of soldiers pull out a hand grenade and activate it.

 2     He and three other people died.  I saw several walk on mines, others lost

 3     their senses, killed themselves and even others.  They went just crazy.

 4     Some run toward the Chetniks while yelling.  I saw about ten people do

 5     this."

 6             Sir, is this section here consistent with the facts as concluded

 7     by the investigation of the Office of the Prosecutor as to the types of

 8     things that were occurring in the Bosnian Muslim column as it went

 9     towards Tuzla from Srebrenica in July of 1995?

10        A.   Yes, these incidents did occur.

11        Q.   I'd like to --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, is there any dispute about such

13     incidents have occurred in the column?

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President, good morning to you.

15     There is not a dispute per se as to the types of incidents that have

16     occurred.  The nature and the extent of these incidents is another issue,

17     and I think that's where Mr. Ivetic may be toeing the line a bit close,

18     but in terms of the types, we're okay.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether it amounts to 1.000 or 2.000 --

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, exactly.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that's the issue, not whether it happened or not.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct.  Thank you, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, could you please keep this in the back

24     of your mind when you continue there because what seems to be the real

25     issue is the number, not the type of incidents.  Please proceed.

Page 15317

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And we are getting to that.

 2     The next paragraph in the statement is where the witness -- where this

 3     witness that did the statement is giving a number and how he arrived at

 4     the number.

 5        Q.   And I'd like to have you follow along with me, sir.  It reads as

 6     follows:

 7             "I caught up with my father and rest of the column.  It started

 8     to get dark.  Then suddenly the head of the column turned backwards and

 9     they screamed:  Chetniks, Chetniks.  The Serbs started shelling, fired

10     hand-launched missiles during about half an hour.  Until that time, we

11     never had fired back.  But at that time I heard the order:  Let us open

12     fire and try to break through.  We opened fire and we managed to make a

13     breach and we could move for about 500 metres.  We came to a hill.

14     There, I and others were ordered to go back and take the wounded.

15     I went back also because I wanted to search my family members.  I went

16     from body to body and I believe there were at least 500 people there

17     killed by the Serb fire."

18             Now, is this part of this witness statement consistent with the

19     findings of the OTP investigation?

20        A.   You know, apart from the number, how he come up with this number,

21     did he count them or what was the methodology used to find out how many

22     people were there and did that, other parts might be consistent with our

23     findings because we have in that area, in Pobudje area many people found

24     or their remains were found on the ground, on the surface.

25        Q.   Well, if you remember, sir, the beginning of this part of the

Page 15318

 1     examination, we started with your answer in Popovic which indicated some

 2     special training would be required to reliably estimate the number of

 3     persons.  If the individual went from body to body upon orders to take

 4     any wounded back, would you agree with me that such an approach would not

 5     necessarily need special training?

 6        A.   You know, the problem is that what he was focusing on at the time

 7     so he was focusing on wounded people, not on how many of them is -- and

 8     there, he hasn't been counting there.  He hasn't been there to count

 9     them.  Even when I'm talking about the special training, you are trained

10     to do that and you are there to do that.  For example, I mean, in

11     competition or whatever, on sport event, you would be counting I mean how

12     many people attended and you would be doing that on purpose.  So that

13     would be your main purpose, but obviously purpose of this individual was

14     something else at that time, so it's really difficult to -- to say if

15     this is an accurate number or not.

16        Q.   Okay.  I would like to look at page 5 of this statement, the

17     middle of the first paragraph, which reads as follows, sir:

18             He's talking about the Hrncic area.  He says:

19             "I believe we were in the Hrncic area but I am not sure.  I asked

20     the ones who wanted to surrender to leave the weapons.  Suddenly, about

21     ten to 20 shells, I believe directly aimed, were fired at us.  I believe

22     it was WBR fire because all grenades arrived almost at the same time.  It

23     was a real massacre.  There were many dead and wounded.  I estimate about

24     150 in total.  When another round was fired, I ran toward the woods to

25     try to find shelter.  I returned to the -- returned to the spot in order

Page 15319

 1     to try to find my father and brother.  I saw a lot of wounded people,

 2     some were begging me to kill them.  Other soldiers were looking for their

 3     relatives.  One of them said he was from Srebrenica and said he knew the

 4     way towards the Udrc mountains."

 5             Now, again, he is talking about the Hrncic area.  Is this

 6     description consistent with the findings of your investigation as to the

 7     types of engagement and casualties that were encountered in this area by

 8     the column?

 9        A.   Yes.  Even in that area, which is part of Pobudje area, we --

10     there were some surface remains found, so there were casualties in that

11     area.

12        Q.   Now, if we look at the third paragraph, and I'm trying to see if

13     I can condense it, if we can look at the first part of the third

14     paragraph, and it reads as follows:

15             "When we arrived, about three kilometres before Snagovo we met

16     other soldiers who told us that the road there was impossible to cross

17     since there were many troops, APCs and tanks.  We returned back to Udrc.

18     From there, eight of us went to Tisca and then in the direction of

19     Kladanj.  Near a tunnel by a creek, the person who knew the way told us

20     to follow exactly his steps because the road was mined.  I saw there

21     around 25 to 30 bodies, most of them killed by stepping on mines, but I

22     saw four of them who had been slaughtered and decapitated.  We proceeded

23     but one of my group stepped on a mine and three, four of us were wounded.

24     One of the others said:  You take care of the wounded, I will go to our

25     lines and try to get help from our side.  Then he left and about

Page 15320

 1     200 metres further we heard a detonation.  The three of us who were not

 2     wounded went to see if our guy had activated a mine but he had not.  Then

 3     we heard screams, the wounded who had left behind -- who we had left

 4     behind were attacked by the Chetniks and -- and I do not know what

 5     happened to them.  The Serbs caught us in a cross fire."

 6             Now, here we are talking about the region Tisca in the direction

 7     of Kladanj.  Is this consistent with the findings of your investigation

 8     as to this region and the number and type of casualties that were

 9     occasioned in that area?

10        A.   We have some surface remains found in that area, not exactly in

11     Tisca but close to Tisca, there were some collected from the ground over

12     the years.

13        Q.   And we don't have to reed it but I can direct you to the

14     paragraph before this one, he also in the last sentence of that

15     paragraph, talks about:

16             "On the way I saw several fresh graves, probably wounded who had

17     died."

18             Do you have any information at your disposal resulting from your

19     investigations to either confirm or contradict the existence of fresh

20     graves along the path of the column?

21        A.   There were fresh graves in -- up north in Orahovac.  There is

22     a -- this is the closest one and of course in Glogova, so these were the

23     freshest, the graves, at the time.  In that areas.

24        Q.   If you can assist us, this witness statement says that the -- on

25     the way from Cerska to the Udrc mountains and after Udrc mountains to

Page 15321

 1     Kamenica is where he encountered these graves.  Would that be the region

 2     that you were talking about?

 3        A.   No, that would be in that area there is the Cerska grave, and

 4     from Cerska up to Udrc, no, there is no open graves at the time.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  I'm finished with this document.  I'd now like

 6     to --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you one question, Mr. Ivetic?  What do

 8     you expect the Chamber to do with the portions you read?  The witness --

 9     apparently in the statement a lot of details are given about what

10     happened there and then this witness says, We found some surface remains.

11     Do you expect the Chamber to rely on what you read from the statement?

12     Or do you exclude that and say the Chamber should rely on what this

13     witness told us, that is that there were surface remains found in area A,

14     B or C?  Because I'm asking you this because the person giving the

15     statement has not attested to this statement.  It raises quite a number

16     of questions.  There was a strong suggestion in your question, for

17     example, that the witness literally meant to say that he went one by one

18     to all -- to what he believed to be 500 persons.  Now, whether he counted

19     them or not was clearly an issue which cannot be clarified without that

20     witness.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Agree.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  So my question is what do you expect the Chamber to

23     do?

24             MR. IVETIC:  Well, Your Honours, I expect to assess the evidence

25     as a whole including this witness and his reliability.  We started off

Page 15322

 1     with his testimony where he had --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  My specific question is:  Could the Chamber

 3     rely on the portions read apart from where the witness says, Well, we

 4     found some surface remains which is consistent with what the witness

 5     said, but all the other details and what happened and numbers and

 6     counting, et cetera, is -- should the Chamber rely on that or can the

 7     Chamber rely on that or even consider it at all?

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Based upon this witness statement by itself, no.  We

 9     hope to be bringing corroborating evidence of these facts later.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's fine, but as matters stand now,

11     therefore, the content of what that witness said in the statement to the

12     extent not confirmed by this witness is not something the Chamber could

13     or should rely on.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Agree.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

16             MR. IVETIC:  If we can now call up 1D1191, and again this also

17     should not be broadcast out of the abundance of caution for this person

18     that was interviewed by the Prosecution.

19        Q.   And, sir, just looking at the first page, can you agree with me

20     this is another Bosnian Muslim who gave a statement in January of 1996 to

21     the ICTY Prosecutor?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. IVETIC:  And if we can move to the second page, and the third

24     paragraph -- or, pardon me, the fifth paragraph from the top, which

25     begins and reads as follows:

Page 15323

 1             "We found the traces of the groups in front of us and followed

 2     their path.  We travelled like that until 1700 hours, when we arrived

 3     above the village of Kravica, in the forest between Kravica and Kamenica.

 4     We got an order coming from the front of the column to stop and take a

 5     break.  We sat down.  Five minutes later, we received another order that

 6     the civilians who were at the rear of the column should go first.  I got

 7     up and started moving and passed by the column of people.  I walked

 8     quickly during half an hour, passing by a lot of people, all of them were

 9     unarmed civilians and there was only one armed soldier every 50 metres

10     guarding the sides of the column.  I was moving towards the front when a

11     very strong shooting started, again coming from all kinds of weapons.  I

12     noticed a big tree and took shelter behind.  When I was there, I saw many

13     people falling down hit by bullets.  Everybody was dispersing and screams

14     of pain from wounded people could be heard coming from all directions.

15     Nobody could help them."

16             If we could just go to the next page.

17             "I stood up and saw many dead bodies around and also many wounded

18     who had their limbs cut due to the shelling."

19        Q.   I'd like to end there and ask you, sir, is this consistent that

20     there was this type of -- with the investigation that you or the Office

21     of the Prosecutor undertook that there was this type of engagement above

22     the village of Kravica, in the forest between Kravica and Kamenica?

23        A.   Yes, I would say yes, and the Prosecution does have even a video

24     of this shelling going from the road, Kravica-Bratunac road, and this is

25     exactly at that area.  What's happening there, what we can see on the

Page 15324

 1     video, it's exactly the place or nearby where this witness is talking

 2     about.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  If we can go to page 4, the third paragraph on that

 4     page, this individual --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, Witness, did you find any surface

 6     remains in that area as well?

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  The -- many of them were found

 8     in that area as well.  I think the biggest concentrations of surface

 9     remains were found or left there on the ground.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.  And they are accounted

11     for in the report, I take it?

12             THE WITNESS:  Yes, correct, in annex B.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

14             MR. IVETIC:

15        Q.   If we could focus on the third paragraph, where this individual

16     states as follows:

17             "I went back to the forest and found there," and I guess I won't

18     read the name out of an abundance of caution, "from the village of," and

19     I won't read the name of the village but you can see it there.  "He told

20     me that many were still in the forest.  We separated and my group decided

21     to go to Zepa.  I looked for somebody who was from Zepa to show us the

22     way.  I found," and again I won't read the name but you see it there,

23     "who was from Zepa and who joined us."  Another name I won't read, "who

24     was a teacher, went with us.  We decided to return to Srebrenica area and

25     from there to Zepa.  We first returned to Susnjari.  We came to a creek

Page 15325

 1     above Susnjari and noticed that the village was burnt and that the cattle

 2     was walking around.  We didn't see any soldiers so we went to seek for

 3     some food in the village.  After we found what we needed, we started to

 4     walk.  We spent a day in the forest above the village and observed the

 5     movements of the Chetniks.  We continued towards Bukovic mountains to

 6     reach Suceska.  During the night we found another group led by," and I

 7     won't mention the name of the individual or the village, "among them I

 8     knew also," another name, "from Srebrenica.  All together we crossed the

 9     river Jadar and went to the village of Bektici.  We arrived at the forest

10     Susica.  From there we could see Zepa and heard heavy artillery fire.  We

11     went to the village Vukoljin Stan where we met," a name, "who is the

12     commander of the Mountain Battalion of Glogova.  With this unit we went

13     to Zepa where we stayed until the same event happened like in Srebrenica,

14     the Zepa safe area fell."

15             Now, first of all, sir, is this consistent with the investigation

16     of the Office of the Prosecutor that a number of the men including

17     fighters from the column that left Srebrenica in July of 1995 actually

18     abandoned their trek and made their way back to Zepa?

19        A.   Yeah, that's correct.  There was even a Kravica survivor from

20     there who went towards this -- towards Zepa and he ended up there.

21        Q.   As the results of your investigation, are you in a position to

22     give a reliable number as to the number of Bosnian Muslim males that went

23     to Zepa from the Bosnian Muslim column that left Srebrenica in July of

24     1995?

25        A.   I think I was reviewing once the number of -- or the estimate of

Page 15326

 1     how many individuals would have left for Zepa, so I don't recall as again

 2     specifically how many of those would be but maybe few hundreds, not more.

 3        Q.   When you say few hundreds, 1, 2, 3, less than 5, more than 5?

 4     Could you --

 5        A.   It would be a speculation but it's definitely less than a

 6     thousand.

 7        Q.   Fair enough.  Now, I'd like to go through just one more part of

 8     the statement with you of this witness -- of this person, I apologise.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question?

10             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any specific information about the number

12     of casualties of the group that headed for Zepa?

13             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, not in my report because my

14     report is related to the events related to Srebrenica.  Previously in my

15     report for Tolimir trial I did have a section with remains or casualties

16     from Zepa and -- but according to my understanding, most of those who

17     left towards Zepa indeed found their way there.  They were killed after,

18     after the Zepa events so -- but they are not included in my report.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  So they cannot explain -- if there were so little

20     casualties, it cannot explain the number of persons found being dead,

21     either surface or in graves?  Is that -- I have to -- how I have to

22     understand?

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes, correct, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 15327

 1        Q.   When you say that those that went to Zepa were killed after Zepa

 2     and are not included in your summary, where were those casualties of

 3     Bosnian males from Srebrenica that went to Zepa and that became

 4     casualties after Zepa, where were they buried?

 5        A.   Most of them were just left on the surface, on the ground.  They

 6     were found.  They have around 30 or 40 so far identified.  Some of them

 7     were executed and buried.  A group of leaders from Zepa, we know for

 8     them.  But for others, there were actually not that much casualties in

 9     Zepa than it was the case for Srebrenica.  So it's altogether, let's say,

10     up to 50 individuals so far identified in wider area of Zepa.

11        Q.   And would those individuals be on the list of missing persons

12     from Srebrenica or from Zepa?

13        A.   You know, some would have been reported as being missing from

14     Srebrenica because that's the place where they were last seen.  They, of

15     course, then made their way down to Zepa and you would find them as

16     missing from Srebrenica, but the place where they were found would tell

17     us that eventually most probably they ended their way in Zepa and from

18     there they have never made their way out to free territory.  So it's not

19     really a distinction there in those data, whether or not it is Srebrenica

20     or Zepa-related victim.  For some of them, it's known because they were

21     only in Zepa, but those who migrated from Srebrenica to Zepa during those

22     events it would be difficult to distinguish.

23        Q.   Okay.  I appreciate that.  Now I'd like to finish up with this

24     page of the -- of this gentleman's statement as he then describes his

25     trek from Zepa.  And I can tell you that later on in the statement, this

Page 15328

 1     gentleman indicates that he only made it to the Muslim free territory

 2     in -- on 21 September 1995, so that all of these observations are at some

 3     point in time before then, although of course I would not know the

 4     specifics.

 5            MR. IVETIC:  One moment, please.

 6             I think I can continue while my colleague consults.

 7        Q.   "I fled with Hamdija's unit of 20 men.  We left three days after

 8     the Chetniks entered Zepa.  We went back and arrived in the village of

 9     Suceska where we collected some food.  We continued and arrived in

10     Susnjari where we stayed for a rest.  Then we followed the path made by

11     the column which had previously fled Srebrenica.  We had walked for about

12     four days.  Coming down the Buljim mountain we found a lot of

13     skeletons" --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, please remain seated.  Please remain

15     seated.  I gained the impression, Mr. Ivetic, that Mr. Mladic felt it

16     important that you would receive the message or whatever it is

17     immediately.  Of course, Mr. Stojanovic is in the position to judge

18     whether that is accurate or not.

19             MR. IVETIC:  One moment, Your Honour, if I may consult with

20     Mr. Stojanovic.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, don't hesitate if there is any

22     matter which needs to be brought to the attention of Mr. Ivetic

23     immediately.  I saw you were moving around a bit hesitant.  Don't be

24     hesitant.  Just give it to Mr. Ivetic.

25                           [Defence counsel confer]

Page 15329

 1                           [Defence counsel and Accused confer]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, keep your voice down.  Mr. Mladic, keep

 3     your voice down at all times.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I think I'd like to finish

 6     up with the quotation and then I'll deal with the issue that Mr. Mladic

 7     raised because we are in the middle of a citation and our time is

 8     approaching the break.

 9        Q.   So I believe we had left off with the section:

10             "We had found a lot of skeletons and parts of bodies of those who

11     were killed on the way.  Close from the spot of the first ambush, we

12     found three survivors who had stayed there hidden for about 40 days.

13     They refused to join us.  When we then arrived at the forest where the

14     second ambush occurred in order to try to identify some bodies.  Bodies

15     were still all around.  I recognised the bodies of two men who were with

16     me at the beginning, at their clothes and their bags.  I searched for my

17     brothers" --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we turn the page, please?

19             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.

20        Q.   "I searched for my brothers but did not find any of them.  We did

21     not count the bodies we saw but I would estimate that there were about 2

22     or 3.000 bodies."

23             And, sir, I'd like to stop there and ask you is this consistent

24     with the results of your investigation as to this region?

25        A.   I saw this Buljim region, I have to -- I have difficulties to

Page 15330

 1     trying to remember where that region is because it's not on my report as

 2     the region or place where the surface remains were found.  So maybe you

 3     try to help me in which area this Buljim is.  I can certainly find if I

 4     am provided with a map.

 5                           [Defence counsel confer]

 6             MR. IVETIC:

 7        Q.   I'm told that that is right outside of the -- what was the

 8     protected enclave of Srebrenica near Sandici.

 9        A.   If it's near Sandici then I'm -- certainly in that area because

10     this is part of the Pobudje area.  We do have many surface remains in

11     that area.

12        Q.   Okay.

13        A.   But again here the number, how accurate it is, so --

14        Q.   I appreciate that we have a question about the number.  I'm just

15     seeing about the rest of everything.

16        A.   Yeah.

17        Q.   Okay.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I see we are at the time for the first

19     break.  I don't want to go over.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we take the break first.  But first, one

21     second.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The issue you wanted to raise in relation to what

24     Mr. Mladic told you, is that to be done with the witness and will it be

25     done after the break?

Page 15331

 1             MR. IVETIC:  With the witness after the break, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  After the break.  Then we take the break first.

 3             Mr. Janc, we will take a break of 20 minutes.  Would you please

 4     follow the usher.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

10                          [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Before we get back to the statement of the individual that's on

14     the screen, I'd like to return to Zepa and ask you if you're familiar

15     with an event that occurred after the fall of Zepa, specifically when

16     approximately 850 armed soldiers of the BiH army in Zepa, rather than

17     submitting their weapons to the VRS, went with their weapons and passed

18     over the Drina River into Serbia and surrendered at the village Sljivica

19     and then thereafter many made their way to America and to Europe.  First

20     of all, are you aware of that event occurring after the fall of Zepa

21     enclave?

22        A.   Yes, I'm aware of that event.  I'm not certain about the number

23     of those soldiers but I'm certainly aware of the event, yes, that took

24     place.

25        Q.   Are you able to confirm or exclude any armed combatants from

Page 15332

 1     Srebrenica who had gone to Zepa may -- being a part of that group that

 2     did so, whatever the number may be?

 3        A.   No, I'm not able either to confirm or exclude but I'm sure there

 4     were some.

 5        Q.   And are you able to exclude beyond any reasonable doubt that any

 6     of those individuals might be on your list in your report?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How could they be, Mr. Ivetic, if you say they

 8     went to America and Europe, or some of them did, and they crossed into

 9     Serbia?

10             MR. IVETIC:  They could still be listed as missing from

11     Srebrenica where they originally originated from, Your Honours.  If they

12     never went back there, they could still be missing.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Listed in his report as missing, not as

14     dead.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

17             THE WITNESS:  Just to answer your question, on my report are only

18     the individuals who have been so far identified.  If they are still

19     missing, if they are still missing, I have not included them into my

20     report.

21             MR. IVETIC:

22        Q.   Fair enough.  Now, if -- if we could return to the document we

23     have up on our screen, and if we can look at the middle --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Microphone is open.  Okay.  Let's proceed.

25             MR. IVETIC:

Page 15333

 1        Q.   If we could look at the middle of the page that we have now,

 2     actually it's at the -- yes, it's right at the middle of the page, and

 3     the section reads as follows:

 4             "During the night we were spotted by the Chetniks and Osman was

 5     shot.  I ran and bullets passed by.  I could see the tracers.  I arrived

 6     in a corn field and lost the others.  I stayed a whole day there, just

 7     laying in the grass.  In the evening I went back and travelled for four

 8     days before arriving at Udrc mountain.  I met people there who told me

 9     that," and I won't read the name, "arrived there the day before.  I found

10     him together with a huge group of about 5 to 600.  The next day the

11     Chetniks started shelling and fired at us with armoured personnel

12     carriers.  Then they searched the mountain.  We stayed hidden and then

13     went to the village of Babici.  Near of a water tap, we found six bodies

14     of civilians near the tap.  We noticed armoured vehicles and left and

15     decided to return to Srebrenica."

16             Is -- first of all, is this consistent with your investigation of

17     the types of encounters or engagements that now these persons from

18     Srebrenica who had gone to Zepa and now were leaving Zepa to follow the

19     path originally taken by the column experienced following the fall of

20     Zepa?

21        A.   Yes, those who left Zepa, they did take different routes, south,

22     west, east, and north.

23        Q.   And is it consistent with your investigation that groups

24     numbering up to 5 to 600 went along this route that this individual

25     described and encountered combat engagements with the Serb forces?

Page 15334

 1        A.   I can't confirm for this 500 individuals but there were certain

 2     groups who were heading north.

 3        Q.   Okay.  If you can clarify for the transcript, did you say "I can

 4     confirm" or you can't confirm?

 5        A.   I cannot.

 6        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now ...

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Consultations should be limited to the real

 8     necessary during the hearings and should be postponed until a break.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Now, from this statement, we see that searches of the terrain, at

12     least of the mountain, were being undertaken sometime after Zepa fell

13     when this group of persons from Zepa fled.  Can you conclusively exclude,

14     with reasonable certainty, that these searches of the terrain conducted

15     after Zepa fell, perhaps even into September 1995, according to this

16     witness, resulted in human remains being found that were then collected

17     and buried in the graves that are being called secondary graves which

18     were dug in the month of September and October 1995?

19        A.   Yes.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic, just for my own guidance and from the

21     excerpt that you read for this witness, I didn't see the name Zepa, and

22     you're now talking about people coming from Srebrenica going to Zepa.

23     Could you, just for my own edification, maybe explain the geography of

24     those areas that are being mentioned here, particularly in relation to

25     Zepa.

Page 15335

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, if you recall from the fourth page of

 2     this exhibit, this is the individual who -- from Srebrenica left with the

 3     column and then with several units went to Zepa because they could not

 4     break through and then stayed in Zepa until Zepa fell, and then went

 5     along the same path as originally taken by the Srebrenica column from

 6     Zepa and then encountered others, this group of 4 to 500 that were taking

 7     this same route.  And I believe the geography that is identified in the

 8     section that we just read was Udrc mountain, and it says that the -- he

 9     met people there, numbering of 5 to 600, and then the next day the

10     Chetniks started shelling and firing at them, and then the Chetniks

11     searched the mountain.  So we are talking about the region by Udrc

12     mountain.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks for that explanation which -- but I'm not

14     quite sure whether what you referred to at page 4 is it because you're

15     not showing us that page, you know, and -- but anyway, thank you so much.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think the relevant part was read into the

17     transcript on page 21, lines 18 to 24.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, I believe so.  Thank you, Your Honour, for

19     clarifying that.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks, Judge.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness very -- with a very short answer said

22     "yes" upon your last question, Mr. Ivetic.  Could we resume from there

23     with the next question?

24             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

25        Q.   Would you agree that you cannot exclude that in addition to

Page 15336

 1     surface remains, some part of the list of persons you provide in your

 2     report as having been exhumed from graves may comprise these casualties

 3     from both the Srebrenica and Zepa exodus of males to Tuzla that were

 4     discovered upon the search of the terrain conducted after Zepa fell in

 5     September of 1995?

 6        A.   We have evidence that only in Glogova primary grave there were

 7     people buried who were collected from the ground along the road, Kravica

 8     or Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road.  So we have evidence on that, that there

 9     was collection of those bodies along the road.  Apart from that, there is

10     no strong evidence or no evidence at all that any bodies which were --

11     remained in the forest that were ever collected.  What we have in the

12     northern part, we have primary graves and we have secondary graves.

13     There is evidence on these secondary graves that they are -- to which

14     primary grave they are connected, and evidence that in those secondary

15     graves there are only individuals which are coming from those primary

16     graves.  This is based on physical evidence which is found during the

17     exhumation and also on the latest DNA connections which I provided in

18     this part of my report.

19        Q.   Would you agree with me, sir, that your DNA connections only

20     match 6.3 per cent of DNA material from the primary gives to the

21     so-called secondary graves?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   Okay.  And would you agree with me that there is evidence,

24     written evidence, that asanacija or sanitisation of the terrain was

25     ordered to be carried out in the various areas along the path of the

Page 15337

 1     Bosnian Muslim column's march towards Tuzla by the Serbs?

 2        A.   Yes, I would agree with you that that was ordered.  Whether or

 3     not that was actually executed, it's a different story.  We don't have

 4     reports on actual search of terrain exercise.

 5        Q.   And so is it really your testimony that with a 6.3 per cent match

 6     of DNA from primary to secondary graves, evidence of orders of asanacija

 7     to be carried out, that you can exclude the possibility that some of the

 8     bodies that are buried were collected as part of a sanitisation or

 9     asanacija from the locations where combat took place and buried in these

10     graves that are called secondary graves and which, in part, are secondary

11     graves?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you answer the question.  Mr. Vanderpuye?

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think Mr. Ivetic's

14     question first assumes a fact that's not in evidence in this case.  He's

15     alleged that the DNA connection between primary and secondary graves

16     amounts to 6.3 per cent but that assumes that there is DNA that can be

17     matched --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  -- between primary and secondary graves to

20     whatever -- whatever percentage, 100 per cent, 80 per cent, it assumes

21     that that is possible and therefore there is DNA that's obtained from

22     both graves that can be matched.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, this seems to be argument rather

24     than an objection to the question.  Second, if you say Mr. Ivetic's

25     question first assumes a fact that's not in evidence in this case, is

Page 15338

 1     that not one of the specific elements of what makes the question a

 2     leading question, a leading question which is permitted in

 3     cross-examination?

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I would submit, Your Honour, with all due

 5     respect, no, it doesn't.  A leading question is a question that posits a

 6     conclusion but is not predicated on something that is not in evidence in

 7     the case.  That's a different question.  And a question that is

 8     predicated in the way Mr. Ivetic has phrased it is a misleading one.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether it's misleading or not is another matter.

10     I was taught, not coming from a common law jurisdiction, that a leading

11     question can be defined as a question which either assumes a fact which

12     has not yet been established or, second, that it may suggest an answer to

13     that question.  So two different types of leading questions.  You, I

14     think you referred to the one type and excluded -- I'm not going at this

15     moment to enter into any further debate on the matter.  Apart from that,

16     the witness agreed to it, to the 6.3, before you raised the -- let me

17     see.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Should have been in either the prior question or the

19     question before that, Your Honour.  I can find it.  It's at page 29,

20     lines 23, through page 30, line 1, of the temporary transcript.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's leave it to that.  The objection to the extent

22     it was an objection is denied.  You may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Sir, do you remember my question or would you perhaps like me to

25     repeat it for you?

Page 15339

 1        A.   Yes, I would like to be repeated, but first of all, I rechecked

 2     my report and I can't agree with 6.3 percentage because we have in those

 3     primary and secondary graves, in total, 5.624 individuals identified.

 4     So -- and out of those number, 1852 -- for 1852 we found a connection

 5     between two -- at least two graves, if not more, and there were 1.000

 6     connections between those graves.  So this percentage should be much

 7     higher, if not -- it should be between 15 and 20 per cent of those cases.

 8        Q.   Sir, I'm relying upon your report.  Do you have page 5 of annex C

 9     in front of you?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And it says the total of DNA connections between primary and

12     secondary are 386.  So by math, from the --

13        A.   Just a second.

14        Q.   It's the summation, totals that you have it says:  Total

15     primary/secondary, 386.  Am I correct in reading that?

16        A.   Oh, yes, you are referring to connection between primary and

17     secondary graves only.

18        Q.   Yes.  Yes.

19        A.   Okay, yes.  That's correct, then.

20        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To clarify the matter, Mr. Janc, on page 29,

22     line 23, you was asked:

23             "Would you agree with me, sir, that your DNA connections only

24     match 6.3 per cent of DNA material from the primary graves to the

25     so-called secondary graves?"

Page 15340

 1             And your answer was:  "Yes, yes."

 2             Do you still stand by that?

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes, between primary and secondary graves, yes,

 4     direct link between those two sites, that's correct.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that clarification.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Now, sir, I think we're --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for my understanding, Mr. Ivetic.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The 6.3 per cent which you highlight that match,

11     does it mean that there were any negative DNA conclusions to be drawn

12     from others?  I think we earlier -- and I think I asked a question about

13     that.  These links only refer to situations where part of the bodily

14     remains were left at the site of the primary graves and that matching

15     body material was found in the secondary graves.  So it doesn't, at least

16     that's my understanding, it doesn't say in any way that the -- that there

17     is 94 per cent not matching or something of the kind.

18             MR. IVETIC:  It's not my intention to say that there is

19     94 per cent not matching.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No, and that it fully depends on whether to what

21     extent, I would say, the primary graves were cleaned up totally or

22     whether small portions remained there.  That is at least my understanding

23     of what the evidence is about.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Or the other reasonable alternative is that the

25     bodies were not in the primary grave but only came in at the secondary

Page 15341

 1     grave, some of the bodies, those that are not matched to the primary.

 2     That's the other --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes -- well, no, no, I'm not -- that's not what I

 4     said --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  I know --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and I didn't exclude that.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  And my question, Your Honours, if I may just

 8     clarify --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Give an explanation as a matter of fact.

10             MR. IVETIC:  If I can clarify.  My question is a follow-up to the

11     witness's testimony at page 29, lines 10 through 22, where he says there

12     is evidence in these secondary graves to which the primary graves that

13     are connected that in these secondary graves are only individuals who are

14     coming from these primary graves and this is based on physical evidence

15     and the latest DNA connections.  That's what this has witness said and

16     that's what I'm asking, based upon this, is he really excluding the

17     possibility that some of those remains in the secondary graves are

18     remains that were not in the primary graves, and that's what direction

19     I'm going.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a valid question.  Please proceed.

21             MR. IVETIC:

22        Q.   Can you answer that, sir?  Let me restate it for you.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Given that we agree that there is a DNA connection confirming

25     6.3 per cent of the remains that were located in secondary graves

Page 15342

 1     originated from primary graves, given that there is evidence or an

 2     agreement that there were documents ordering asanacija to be undertaken

 3     in the areas where we agree there was combat and we agree that there were

 4     casualties, are you really testifying here today that you exclude

 5     100 per cent the possibility that some bodies were recovered in asanacija

 6     and buried in the secondary graves that were dug in September and October

 7     of 1995, that is, following the events that we have just talked about?

 8        A.   Okay, for -- it would be really difficult to exclude for

 9     100 per cent, with 100 per cent certainty, that possibility, but I would

10     say based on evidence collected so far it would be very unlikely.  So let

11     me explain a little bit more on this.  So we have to take into

12     consideration the entire picture, not only what connections we have

13     between primary and secondary graves because there is also importance

14     what is happening, what connections we have between secondary graves.

15     For example, if you have connection between primary grave and -- A and

16     secondary grave B, okay?  We have a link between those two, and then if

17     you only have -- so it means one individual was found or body parts of

18     one individual in both graves.  Then if you have a connection of another

19     individual which is between grave B and C, even that individual is linked

20     back to the primary grave because the person B is coming obviously from

21     the primary grave.  So person C, even if you have only connection between

22     two secondary graves, it's also linked back to the primary grave, to the

23     same one, through -- that through that person B.

24        Q.   So in your hypothetical --

25        A.   No, I'm not hypothetical --

Page 15343

 1        Q.   It is a hypothetical because you're using B and C.  If you were

 2     using names it would not be hypothetical.

 3        A.   Yes, correct, correct.

 4        Q.   Okay.  In your hypothetical, B is the person, the one body that

 5     could be linked to the primary grave by DNA connections?

 6        A.   Correct, correct.

 7        Q.   That's what I'm saying.

 8        A.   So this is one portion of it.  Then you have analysis on soil and

 9     pollen samples so we know that certain secondary graves are coming from

10     particular primary sites, so you have to take into consideration that.

11     But in a way you are correct saying that it's difficult to say for

12     everybody in those graves that are indeed coming from the primary graves,

13     just based on the DNA connections.

14        Q.   Exactly.

15        A.   Yes.  So in order to -- in order to establish the clear picture,

16     further analysis will be needed, deep analysis.  I accept that.  And as

17     I was talking to the representatives from the ICMP when preparing this

18     report, so they were telling -- telling me that they are putting together

19     a kind of a sequence chart.  So what they are doing is -- first of all,

20     we have to understand that in each grave, secondary grave, you will

21     usually find that there were several deposits inside the grave which

22     means one deposit is one truck offload, so one transportation of bodies,

23     one deposit.  So what they are doing now is they are trying to establish

24     which secondary graves have been filled first and then which -- what was

25     the sequence of those -- of those events, so they are trying to find the

Page 15344

 1     links between them and they are doing that.  And they are quite close to

 2     complete the -- their analysis.  They are not yet finished.  I asked for

 3     their report, or preliminary report on this issue, I haven't received

 4     one.  Because it's a time consuming job because first of all, you have to

 5     know within -- if you're talking about one deposit which body parts were

 6     found within that deposit and then you link that back to the primary

 7     graves.

 8             So in order to be 100 per cent certain, one would need to do this

 9     analysis.  So as I told you, you know, the Prosecution, the OTP, because

10     I've been looking for this information already before, particularly if I

11     can find information which body parts have been found in -- as part of

12     certain deposit within the secondary grave, okay,

13     I didn't find that information, but obviously the ICMP does have this

14     information available and this is analysis they have been doing now for

15     quite -- quite some time.  And based on this analysis we will be much

16     closer to the -- to the picture whether or not all of them are indeed

17     related to or coming from the primary graves based on DNA connections

18     again.  I'm emphasising.

19             However, again, if you check the -- my report, the charts, which

20     we have been looking at yesterday -- I don't know maybe we could upload

21     one if possible, to be easier to explain but we can go, for example,

22     chart C, chart number 2, and have Branjevo.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The exhibit number is P1987.

24             MR. IVETIC:  It should be the fifth page from the end in e-court

25     is chart number 2.

Page 15345

 1             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  It's the one after, please.  Next page,

 2     okay.  So what we have here, you have connections related to Branjevo

 3     primary and secondary graves on the -- and the right-hand side Kozluk.

 4     They are both along the Cancari Road.  Based on the connections we can

 5     see and we can exclude, not only based on the connections, also based on

 6     evidence we have, that re-exhumations were done at different time.  So

 7     one was done after another.  I think Kozluk was first and only then

 8     Branjevo.  So there is no sequence between those two.  And based on this

 9     chart, you can also conclude that this is or, you know, establish that

10     was indeed the case.  Why?  Because if they were done simultaneously, for

11     example, theoretically speaking, again, and, for example, part of the

12     bodies were taken from Kozluk and part of the bodies on the same truck

13     from Branjevo and then deposited into the secondary grave, you would find

14     now connections, for example, between Cancari 1 and Cancari 5, or there

15     would be at least strong connections between those two.

16        Q.   And this is all theoretically speaking as you indicated?

17        A.   Not theoretically but that's --

18        Q.   That's your words, theoretically speaking.

19        A.   Theoretically speaking, okay, but let me correct myself in saying

20     it --

21        Q.   Do you have evidence that the same truck was used --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, could you allow the witness to --

23             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, I apologise.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- complete his answer.

25             THE WITNESS:  What I'm saying here, if there was indeed mixture

Page 15346

 1     of bodies on the same truck, the connections would appear here on these

 2     charts but we have no strong connections between two group of -- groups

 3     of graves.  So which basically means that Kozluk has been re-exhumed and

 4     the bodies were taken from Kozluk to Cancari secondary graves.  After

 5     that, we have Branjevo and re-exhumation done there, and bodies were

 6     taken from Branjevo to secondary graves.  If there was a continuation

 7     even, for example, one grave they -- they -- okay, they -- they finished

 8     the work at Kozluk and then the bodies would be taken from there to

 9     secondary mass grave and the mass grave, secondary mass grave was not

10     full and they would continue job with Branjevo and bring the bodies from

11     Branjevo into the same secondary grave, I'm sure there would be a

12     connection, strong connection, for example, between two secondary graves,

13     one in Branjevo and the other in Kozluk, but we don't have these

14     connections.  And it's the same if we go into the other chart, it will be

15     the same, you see you don't have strong connections between the graves,

16     which is telling us or which is a kind of evidence that those graves were

17     filled up at one -- at one time, one per time, and they were not mixed

18     with other individuals.

19             Of course, of course, you know, in order to exclude your

20     suggestion, that there would be -- there would be individuals taken from

21     the woods, you would need, you know, further analysis which I have been

22     talking about.  But based on what I can see and what evidence have been

23     so far adduced from various sources, that would be very, very unlikely.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, before we continue, you may have

25     confused the witness to some extent when you referred to the 6.3 per cent

Page 15347

 1     where the witness's testimony was that it was DNA connections and

 2     physical evidence.  You just left out part of the witness's answer about

 3     the physical evidence and I think it has now been restored.  It would

 4     have been better to avoid that.  I raise this issue, and then take you

 5     back to yesterday where you did put to the witness the evidence of

 6     another witness, Witness RM306, and then you said, "who testified that

 7     pursuant to the legal obligations of the SFRY Law on Civil Protection,"

 8     and you referred to the transcript page, "the bodies and remains

 9     recovered by asanacija would be buried in communal or mass graves rather

10     than individual graves."  And then the answer is irrelevant, but you

11     misrepresented the evidence of Witness RM306, who didn't say this, on

12     pages 11464 to 11465.  He said, as a matter of fact, that the rule was

13     that they should be buried in individual graves, in individual graves,

14     that he wasn't certain that this was -- or at least he had doubts on

15     whether it was done at any point in time.  And at least on those pages, I

16     cannot find that the bodies and remains recovered by asanacija would be

17     buried in relation to, as you introduced it, pursuant to the legal

18     obligations.

19             MR. IVETIC:  The term "communal graves" is right there in the

20     transcript, Your Honour.  I can't pull it up now but that's where I got

21     the question from.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not inviting you to have a debate on the matter.

23     I just want to point out to you that linking what was in accordance with

24     the legal obligations and what happened in reality and mixing it up

25     results in a -- at least partial misrepresentation of what the witness

Page 15348

 1     said.  Now, the witness couldn't answer the question so there is no

 2     issue, but would you be please be very precise in any reference to either

 3     an answer this witness gives or an answer given by another witness so as

 4     to avoid any confusion.  You may proceed.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And I must correct

 6     Your Honour that at transcript page 33, line 8, I gave credit to the

 7     witness for saying physical evidence and DNA connections.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I said you may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, thank you.

10             Now, I'd like to turn to 1D1196, page 77, in e-court.

11     I apologise, it's going to be page 78.  Again, 1D1196, page 78.

12        Q.   And I'd like to focus on lines 8 through 19 with you, sir.  This

13     is from your transcript -- your testimony in the Popovic case.  And reads

14     as follows:

15             "Q.  So Budak is partially a primary grave, not in relation to

16     this but Budak is a primary grave?

17             "A.  Actually, where secondary grave Budak 1 is located there is

18     a Muslim grave, yes, next to it.

19             "Q.  Just one more question about this proposition that I made.

20     It's a very reasonable possibility that those bodies were buried there,

21     isn't it?

22             "A.  Which bodies you mean?

23             "Q.  I'm talking about the bodies collected in the woods in the

24     area we have just discussed, Buljim, Kamenica, Pobudje, and so on.

25             "A.  Yes.  If they were collected, those were buried somewhere

Page 15349

 1     for sure."

 2             Is this testimony accurately depicting the answers that you gave

 3     in the Popovic case to these questions?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And do you stand by the same as being truthful such that you

 6     would so testify today?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  I'd like to look at 1D1195 -- actually strike that.

 9     We've already gotten that.  Skip that.

10        Q.   Yesterday, you testified about the Bljeceva grave being mixed

11     with bodies from 1992 and 1995 and I would like to ask you a few

12     follow-up questions in relation to that site.  When you say that there

13     were some bodies from a 1992 incident, would those bodies have come from

14     the municipality of Bratunac relating to an incident at the Vuk Karadzic

15     school in 1992?  Is that what you are talking about?

16        A.   Yes, I think so.  That's the case.

17        Q.   Now, if we can please return to P1983, which was used with you

18     yesterday.  And page 4 in English, page 5 in the B/C/S, and it is again

19     paragraph 10 which we were looking at yesterday.  And paragraph 10 is

20     where we looked at yesterday where it identifies that certain of the

21     bodies on top dated from 1992 and others were 1995 were found at the

22     bottom, I believe, of the grave.

23             Now, I have a question for you.  How many of the bodies from this

24     site did you exclude as dating from 1992?  Was it 50 or 80 or --

25        A.   I think the number is around 100.

Page 15350

 1        Q.   Okay.  It is about around 100?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Because in paragraph 4 of the document before us, it talks

 4     about 80 of these, approximately 80 bodies, that were in JNA body bags.

 5     Are those the ones that you excluded from this site or were there others?

 6        A.   Yes, these are the ones.

 7        Q.   Okay.  So is it 100 or is it approximately 80?

 8        A.   It's around 80 or 90, something like that.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Now, RM306 testified at our trial at transcript page 11481

10     through 11483, that he believed there were 100 to 150 bodies from 1992

11     which were removed and taken by Momir Nikolic.

12             So the question I have for you is as follows:  Can you exclude

13     the possibility that the difference between the two numbers, that is the

14     approximately 80 that were confirmed to be from 1992 and excluded, and

15     the 100 to 150 that RM306 talks about, again we can't get an exact

16     number, of course, but can you exclude the possibility that some number,

17     perhaps as many as 60 or 70, dated from 1992 but were not excluded from

18     your list based upon the testimony of RM306?

19        A.   What's included in my report are only victims which are related

20     to Srebrenica events which were found or rather to say their body parts

21     which were found in that mixed Bljeceva 1 grave and we have even DNA

22     connections back to the primary Glogova grave and other graves.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Now I'd like to take a look at 1D1196, page 59 in

25     e-court, which should correlate to transcript page 33625.

Page 15351

 1        Q.   And if we could focus on line 17 onward, I'd like to go over with

 2     you some of the testimony that you gave in this case to see if it is

 3     accurate?

 4             "Q.  Okay.  Did you review the pathology reports as to the cause

 5     and manner of death of the bodies that they did identify?

 6             "A.  Yes, some of them, but not all of them.

 7             "Q.  Excluding Kravica and Glogova, and excluding the two sites

 8     where we saw a significant amount of ligatures and blindfolds, do you

 9     agree with me that the cause and manner of death identified by the

10     pathologist is vague?

11             "A.  I can't comment on that.

12             "Q.  Well, why not?  You're an investigator.  You gave them

13     the" - and if we can turn to the next page - "direction to provide that

14     information.  If they say someone died as a result of a bullet wound,

15     does that answer the question as to whether or not that person died from

16     a self-inflicted wound?  A wound from one of his colleagues?  A wound

17     from a combat engagement?  Or a wound from an executor?  All those four

18     or five possibilities exist, do they not?

19             "A.  Yes, they do.  But now, in order to -- to clarify the issue,

20     you have to look into this particular case from different perspectives.

21     You have to find more, for example, information about this particular

22     individual, not only the reports, also the information statements and

23     whatever evidence you can find on this person and then you can maybe

24     perhaps establish the manner and cause of death.

25             "Q.  So you are saying, sir, that in fact you think it may not be

Page 15352

 1     vague but that it's incomplete?

 2             "A.  Yes, perhaps.

 3             "Q.  Well, try to be more definitive.  You're an investigator

 4     giving evidence in an International Criminal Tribunal.  You made a report

 5     in this case, not perhaps, it's without a doubt, isn't it, that the path

 6     report does not exclude or rule out any of the possibilities that I'm

 7     suggesting, that the numbers that you've given us are indeed inflated and

 8     included individuals who died as a result of sustaining injuries from

 9     land mines, self-inflicted wounds, and/or injuries from legitimate combat

10     engagements?

11             "A.  Yes, you're right."

12             Sir, can you confirm if this section of the transcript appears to

13     accurately record the answers that you gave to the questions posed?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.  And do you stand by those answers as truthful such that you would

16     so testify today the same way?

17        A.   Yes, but there was -- for this last section it's a compound

18     question and what I answered here and it was -- I think I've been asked

19     on redirect again --

20        Q.   Mm-hm.

21        A.   -- the same what was meant here, I was asked if these numbers

22     were inflated and then you see it continues.  My response was to that

23     second part yes, but whether or not the -- my numbers were inflated, you

24     know, my answer on response was later no.

25        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that clarification.

Page 15353

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Now I'd like to look at document 25555, 25.555, from

 2     the Prosecution's 65 ter list.

 3        Q.   Sir, now that we have it on the screen, can you confirm for us

 4     whether as part of your investigation you had a chance to review and

 5     consider this UN document dated 17 July 1995 and updating the situation

 6     as to Srebrenica and Tuzla?

 7        A.   Yes, most probably yes, let's say.  I cannot confirm really.

 8     I would need to go through, but most probably I did see this document

 9     before.

10        Q.   And as part of your investigations are you familiar with the

11     individual who drafted this report, a Mr. Ken Biser who is identified as

12     the SCvAO Sector North-East Tuzla?  Are you familiar with that -- with

13     that person or that title designation within the --

14        A.   No, I don't know that person.

15        Q.   Okay.

16             MR. IVETIC:  If we can please move to page 2 of the document, and

17     item number 1, I'd like to just have one or two questions about what is

18     there.

19        Q.   And you can follow along with me, sir, it says:

20             "Escapees from Srebrenica have arrived at Tuzla airbase to join

21     up with their families.  UNMOs, civil affairs and others have spoken

22     separately to several individuals who describe a similar ordeal.  12 to

23     15.000 left Srebrenica on 10 to 11 July.  5 to 6.000 crossed into BiH

24     2nd Corps-controlled territory in the southern Sapna area last night,

25     16 July.  Up to 3.000 were killed on the way, mostly by mines and BSA

Page 15354

 1     engagements.  Unknown others were captured.  Some committed suicide.

 2     Unknown others went to Zepa."

 3             Now, I want to ask you, did you have occasion to encounter, if

 4     not perhaps this document, this information that up to 3.000 were killed

 5     on the way mostly by mines and BSA engagements, unknown others were

 6     captured, some committed suicide, unknown others went to Zepa?  Did you

 7     have occasion to come across that type of information?

 8        A.   Yes, I do remember now this report from before, and I can say you

 9     see it's an early report from 17 July 1995, and it's -- you can see from

10     this report it's an estimate, and based on evidence we have now, it was

11     an estimate at the time, so how accurate again it is depends on different

12     facts.  So we don't have a background information how this number was

13     obtained and from which sources.

14        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, are we at the time for the break or do

16     we still have five minutes?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we have still five minutes.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Then I'd like to move to another topic.  As part of your

20     investigation, sir, did you have occasion to conclude that there were a

21     number of people killed, that is, a number of bodies in the town of

22     Srebrenica itself, some of which are seen on various video-tapes from

23     July of 1995?

24        A.   Yes, there were some of them killed in Srebrenica town itself.

25        Q.   I'd like to focus on those bodies for the moment.  Did you ever

Page 15355

 1     come across any conclusive evidence confirming where those bodies from

 2     Srebrenica town were buried?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Did, as part of your investigation, you come to a definitive

 5     number as to how many such bodies there were from Srebrenica town?

 6        A.   As I still remember it wasn't many but there were few.  You can

 7     even see them on videos.

 8        Q.   Would you agree with me that they probably would have been buried

 9     somewhere rather than being left in the open in Srebrenica town?

10        A.   It's really difficult to say where they would be buried.

11        Q.   My question -- perhaps you misunderstood.  Not -- my question is

12     not where they would be buried but would you agree with me that they

13     probably would have been buried somewhere rather than being left in the

14     open in Srebrenica town?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Okay.  And of the --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question?

18             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Probably everyone who dies will be buried or perhaps

20     will not be buried.  There is any factual information to your knowledge

21     which allows you to give a better impression about what probably would

22     have been the case?  Do you have any information?

23             THE WITNESS:  No, Your Honour, for this specific case in

24     Srebrenica we don't have any information.  I know for the Bratunac, for

25     the killings in Bratunac, in school and around the Vuk Karadzic school

Page 15356

 1     the bodies were taken from there and from the stadium to Glogova mass

 2     grave.  So it's possible that those bodies were taken there as well as

 3     part of the sanitation --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  But you have no information.

 5             THE WITNESS:  But I have no information for the specific victims

 6     from Srebrenica town.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8             MR. IVETIC:

 9        Q.   You mentioned Glogova.  Am I correct that both Glogova 1 and 2

10     are the graves closest to Srebrenica town itself?

11        A.   Yes, primary, if you're talking about primary graves, yes.

12        Q.   Yes, okay.  Now, in relation to the Glogova site, I would like to

13     look at something with you, which is located at 1D1196, page 82, which

14     should correlate to transcript page 33648.

15             MR. IVETIC:  And if we could focus on lines 6 through 20, I'd

16     like to examine those with the witness.

17        Q.   Sir, you can follow along and it reads as follows:

18             "Q.  Another interesting point to discuss is the fact that the

19     grave GL02-09 consists of a string of graves of various dimensions.  This

20     implies that graves of different sizes were being excavated according to

21     the needs to dispose bodies therein and that there may have been a

22     relative time difference between the excavation of each of the graves.

23     At this point, it is not possible to precise what was the absolute time

24     difference between each of the burial episodes.

25             "Can you see that in front of you and do you agree with -- this

Page 15357

 1     is what Mr. Baraybar's report reads?

 2             "A.  Yes, I see and I can agree.

 3             "Q.  Now that we have read this passage, is it consistent with

 4     what Witness PW161 said and that we read a minute ago, that is to say

 5     that there were several burials at different times, which is also clear

 6     from the forensic evidence?

 7             "A.  Yes, we can say something like that, yes."

 8             Can you confirm that the answers were accurately recorded in this

 9     selection of the transcript from the Popovic case?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And do you stand by those answers as truthful such that you would

12     so testify here today if asked these same questions?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, now I believe we are at the break.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We are, but I have one short follow-up question.

17     Reading this, you were asked whether the report by Mr. Baraybar is

18     consistent with what another witness said, a witness we do not know who

19     that is and what he actually said but it's summarised here, and you said:

20     "Yes, we can say something like that."  So the question was whether two

21     other witnesses are consistent in their statements and your answer is:

22     "Yes, we can say something like that."

23             Now, was -- did you mean to say that you share the views of those

24     two other witnesses or at least the Baraybar report and Witness PW161, or

25     did you just answer the question that the two answers are consistent?

Page 15358

 1             THE WITNESS:  I think the first one, Your Honour, that the views

 2     of those two other witnesses are consistent so that would be my -- but --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you add anything that what you considered to be

 4     consistent opinions or views that you shared that view or that that is a

 5     possibility or what -- how do we exactly have to understand your answer?

 6             THE WITNESS:  Maybe we don't have the entire section here but in

 7     this particular case I know what -- what is all about.  It's a separate

 8     grave in Glogova which was opened later, around 20 of July, so -- and

 9     this is consistent with what those two witnesses have been saying or this

10     witness had been saying, that some bodies were buried in that particular

11     site later.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is that your view as well?

13             THE WITNESS:  Yes, correct.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  That's what I wanted to explore.  We

15     take a break of 20 minutes.  Would you please follow the usher?

16                           [The witness stands down]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, could I inquire with you on where we

18     stand as far as time is concerned?

19             MR. IVETIC:  We are still on track, I believe -- I believe we

20     might even be able to finish in the next session.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The next session.  Then we will take the break and

22     we will resume at quarter past 12.00.

23                          --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.

24                          --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

Page 15359

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, good afternoon.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Sorry to interrupt you.  I just wanted to ask

 4     about the scheduling of the next witness, a protected witness.

 5     Mr. Ivetic, I understand, is going to use most of this session.  I may

 6     have about 10 or 15 minutes of redirect examination so it seems unlikely

 7     that we will reach him, or if so, just barely, and I was wondering

 8     whether or not it might be appropriate to discharge him at this time

 9     until tomorrow, as the witness is on stand-by presently.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, can you be a bit more precise?  Would it

11     be 60 minutes or 50 minutes or?

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             MR. IVETIC:  It's probably 45 to 50 minutes, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we could likely conclude the testimony of

15     this witness by the next break.  During the break we could have the

16     protective measures organised and then we would still have half a session

17     to start with the next witness.  So I would rather keep him on stand-by,

18     not promising anything at this moment, yes.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22        Q.   I'd like to take a look with you, sir, at 65 ter number 18698

23     from the Prosecution's list in e-court.  First off, sir, can you verify

24     that this one-page corrigendum was authored by you?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 15360

 1        Q.   Is the information in it true and correct, to the best of your

 2     knowledge?

 3        A.   Yes, it is.

 4        Q.   Now, in relation to the Kravica execution site and Glogova grave

 5     site, in the middle of this page you discuss a total of, I believe,

 6     12 people in the first bullet point and 103 total people plus one

 7     truckload of bodies in the second bullet point as all being bodies from

 8     Glogova that cannot be attributed to the Kravica execution site.  Am I

 9     right?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   You further conclude, and now I quote:

12             "Nevertheless, considering the presented figures regarding the

13     bodies buried in Glogova mass graves, as well as the above-mentioned

14     different sources, most of these 1319 individuals must be still directly

15     connected with the Kravica warehouse execution point.  However, the exact

16     number cannot be provided."

17             Is that still your position?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I would tender this as the next

20     available exhibit number.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar?

22             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 18698 will be Exhibit D342.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  D342 in the absence of any objection is admitted

24     into evidence.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 15361

 1        Q.   Now, Mr. Janc, I'd like to stay at the Kravica site for a related

 2     topic.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  And to do so I would bring up 1D1193 in e-court.

 4        Q.   And now that we have it up on the screen I would ask that you

 5     take a look at it, it's dated 18 September 2001 and purports to be from

 6     field SOCO Tom Grange to chief forensic crime scene examiner.  Are you

 7     familiar with this document?

 8        A.   I think I've seen this document before.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Now, this document talks of artefact evidence being taken

10     from Zeleni Jadar grave 6 to Kravica to try and compare and see if there

11     is a match.  It states that one piece with white paint recovered from the

12     grave did not match anything at Kravica, but unfortunately that artefact

13     was lost and could not be located for turnover back into the custody of

14     the authorities.  Do you have knowledge of this incident?

15        A.   No, I don't have any knowledge on that incident.  It's just what

16     we can read here.

17        Q.   Would this provide some indication that bodies from Kravica were

18     mixed with bodies from some other source that is as of yet unknown at the

19     Zeleni Jadar grave that is mentioned?

20        A.   Not necessarily.  Just based on one piece of artefact found in

21     mass graves, because apart from that piece, there were many other

22     artefacts found which could be linked with Kravica warehouse.

23        Q.   And that's why I ask you to please listen to my question.

24        A.   Yes, I know your question, what was your question, so if we can

25     exclude based on that piece, you know, in Kravica warehouse, at least

Page 15362

 1     that's my understanding and what I could read during the course of my

 2     investigation, is that there was also a storage place before and many

 3     other artefacts might be collected during the sanitation area there after

 4     the mass execution.  So it's possible that some other artefacts which

 5     have not been really linked with the construction itself may be also

 6     collected from the site itself and taken to secondary and primary and

 7     secondary graves.

 8        Q.   That is one possible explanation.  Is not another possible

 9     explanation that the bodies from Kravica were mixed with bodies from some

10     unknown other source at Zeleni Jadar number 6?

11        A.   You know from evidence we have so far, that there is a certain

12     number of individuals and that was exhibit which was just displayed

13     before which had not originated from Kravica event, that's true.  There

14     --

15        Q.   And that was Glogova?

16        A.   It's Glogova, but Zeleni Jadar 6, it's a secondary grave to

17     Glogova primary grave.

18        Q.   And I presume since you were not aware of this incident you did

19     not undertake to investigate anything in relation to --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, can you investigate anything you're not

21     aware of?  Well, it's --

22             MR. IVETIC:  The witness is talking about other --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, no, no --

24             MR. IVETIC:  -- evidence.  And I'd like to know did he

25     investigate this with respect to other evidence or is he just now

Page 15363

 1     hypothesising.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, please.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

 4        Q.   Did you exclude any bodies from Zeleni Jadar from your report

 5     based on any concerns that they may have come from some other source that

 6     could not be determined?

 7        A.   No.  I presented the number how many of those individuals have

 8     been found in Zeleni Jadar and I listed them in my report.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I would tender this as the next

11     available exhibit number in this case.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar?

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Number 65 ter 1D1193 will be Exhibit D343.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   I would now like to look at 1D1153 with you.

17             MR. IVETIC:  And if we can please not broadcast that document.

18        Q.   Sir, this is a chart prepared by Ms. Svetlana Radovanovic, a

19     Defence demographic expert, and was prepared and used in the Popovic

20     case.  And first of all, sir, am I correct that you can read and

21     understand the portions of this chart that are in Serbo-Croatian on the

22     left-hand side?

23        A.   Yes, I can.

24        Q.   And secondly, sir, do you recall being shown this data and this

25     chart by the Defence during your testimony in the Popovic trial?

Page 15364

 1        A.   It's possible.  I've been shown many of similar documents

 2     throughout my testimonies so it's possible this one was also presented to

 3     me, yes.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Now, this was a list prepared based on preliminary

 5     information from the Bosnian Ministry of Defence that 137 persons who

 6     were registered as BiH soldiers and who were recorded as having been

 7     deceased in incidents prior to July 1995 were, in fact, included in the

 8     Prosecution's list of dead from Srebrenica with some of them being

 9     conclusively identified via ICMP DNA testing as being exhumed from the

10     Srebrenica mass graves.  Am I correct that your investigation did not

11     undertake to review any records from the Ministry of Defence to ascertain

12     if such -- if such preliminary information was true?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   No, you did not, or no, I'm not correct?

15        A.   No, you're not correct.

16        Q.   Okay.  Can you tell me what efforts you undertook based upon

17     information from the Ministry of Defence to ascertain if persons

18     registered as having deceased or disappeared in incidents prior to

19     July 1995 are included on your list?

20        A.   Personally, not many, but what I did was I consulted the

21     demographic unit, the OTP demographic experts on this issue and they were

22     the ones who in the name of the OTP requested further information from

23     the Ministry of --

24        Q.   Defence?

25        A.   -- Defence from the BiH on this issue.  And I'm sure that they

Page 15365

 1     are going, this demographic experts were going to testify in this case

 2     and they would be the best source to answer these questions.

 3             However, as my understanding is that during their verification

 4     process, those individuals have been excluded or, you know, actually they

 5     concluded that there is no reliable source of information for such

 6     conclusion as you can see it here.  And the fact that these individuals

 7     have been found in secondary and primary graves related to Srebrenica

 8     events would confirm quite opposite from my perspective because if, for

 9     example, and I think I did check some names, and I found that, for

10     example, that they were found in a pile of bodies, so mixed together with

11     bodies or victims from the Srebrenica events.  So it's -- it would

12     confirm quite opposite that these bodies are -- or these individuals have

13     indeed passed away during Srebrenica events and not before.

14             And the list which was compiled by the BiH Defence, as I'm told,

15     was based on different sources and, you know, there were different

16     reasons behind compiling such a list, so I'm not really aware anymore

17     about exact particular reasons, but I know that as it was assessed by the

18     demographic expert, this list hasn't been perceived as being really

19     reliable.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Let's look at 65 ter 25923 on the Prosecution list.

21        Q.   While we wait for it, I can tell you it's dated 2008 and arises

22     from developments in the Popovic trial and is from a Ms. Ewa Tabeau.

23     First of all, sir, is Ms. Tabeau the demographer that you consulted in

24     answer -- that you identified generally in the answer to your -- the last

25     question?

Page 15366

 1        A.   Yes, she is the one.

 2        Q.   If we can, first of all, look at the first paragraph, does this

 3     appear to be the work that you just described generally that arose after

 4     this information was raised in the Popovic trial as to the preliminary

 5     information from the Ministry of Defence?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  If we can turn to page 2 in the English and page 3

 8     in the B/C/S.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly slow down for the interpreters.  Thank

10     you very much.

11             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise to the interpreters.

12        Q.   If we can focus on the third full paragraph from the top in the

13     English, and it reads as follows:

14             "Table 1 confirms that the per cent of the identified ABiH cases

15     is relation to the identified OTP missing is about 70 per cent (exactly

16     71 per cent for ICTY sites and 73 per cent for all sites).  Secondly, it

17     points out that the number of identified ABiH cases exhumed from the ICTY

18     grave sites (2686) is much larger than the number of identified ABiH

19     cases from the non-ICTY grave sites (752; the sum of the two gives the

20     overall total of 3438 identified ABiH cases).  Basically about

21     78 per cent of all identified ABiH cases were exhumed from the ICTY sites

22     as opposed to 22 per cent from non-ICTY sites."

23             Sir, were you aware of this finding that about 70 per cent of the

24     persons said to be victims of Srebrenica exhumed from ICTY sites were

25     registered as members of the Armija BiH?

Page 15367

 1        A.   Not about the exact number but I know there was a certain number

 2     of them.

 3        Q.   Okay.  If we look at the bottom of page 2 of the English

 4     document, and this will be on page 4 in the B/C/S, it reads as follows:

 5             "Having said this, I checked inconsistencies in reporting of date

 6     of death/missing (DOD) for the ABiH records matched with the 2005 OTP

 7     list of missing persons.  I was unable to compare place of death (POD)

 8     for those victims as POD is unavailable in the ABiH lists.  A total of

 9     220 ABiH records for those matched (5.371) with the OTP list have

10     inconsistent DOD."

11             It would thus appear that rather than the 137 that

12     Ms. Radovanovic found, Ms. Tabeau found 220 cases with inconsistent data

13     as to date of death from the ABiH lists and the Prosecution list.  Were

14     you aware of such information?

15        A.   Not in that many details, no.

16        Q.   Did you take such information into account while preparing your

17     new updated report?

18        A.   Yes, sure, I would -- and I did take this fact into

19     consideration.  Perhaps not in that way but what I included in my report

20     were cases, individuals which were actually identified as being missing

21     after the fall of Srebrenica and that they appear on the ICMP list.  So

22     whether or not now those 220 cases are included, I cannot tell you

23     because I would need the names and I would need to compare it --

24        Q.   Of course.

25        A.   -- and it would take some time but it's possible.  But, you know,

Page 15368

 1     as I explained just before, it would prove quite opposite when and where

 2     and how perhaps were these people executed, killed, or how they have

 3     died.

 4        Q.   I would like to look at another document on this topic with

 5     you --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, inconsistencies is one issue but of

 7     course the next question, which is the correct information?  Could the

 8     witness answer whether it was established whether either the -- your

 9     findings or the registered findings of the BiH Ministry of Defence were

10     accurate?

11             THE WITNESS:  It would now be just -- it would be a hearsay what

12     I heard from the demographic expert.  As I still remember, she was

13     telling me that they were not reliable data.  To what extent and to what

14     and why, so we would need to consult -- I would need to consult her again

15     and to see what she has to say on that one.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Ivetic, I think that this report may

17     contain some information, I don't know whether you want to tender this or

18     not, but can the Chamber then also rely on information such as 127 have

19     been corrected by the FPH Ministry of Defence in 2003?  Is that --

20             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, and we are coming to the next -- the next

21     document is also a follow-up to this --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I found it in this document already on page 3, where

23     the inconsistencies are to some extent resolved.

24             MR. IVETIC:  According to the OTP's demographer, yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore I'm asking you whether we can rely on what

Page 15369

 1     is -- if you tender this document, whether we can rely on that

 2     information as well because if the document is tendered ...

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Well, he did not draft this document.  I was

 4     thinking to save it for Ms. Tabeau but I -- it's up to the Prosecution if

 5     they want to tender it now.  I don't know what weight it has now as to

 6     matters that this witness --

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, I would specifically request that it be

 8     addressed with Dr. Tabeau who is a scheduled witness in this case.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then it's -- should it then be marked for

10     identification so that that we know that it has been dealt with --

11             MR. IVETIC:  That's fine.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- this witness.  Then could we -- before we move to

14     the next document, Mr. Registrar, could we assign a number for this

15     document we MFI'd?

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  65 ter number 25923 will be

17     MFI D344.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And keeps that status and we will revisit matter, I

19     do understand, when Ms. Tabeau appears to give her testimony.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  The next document is

22     number 25876 and I would ask that we please do not broadcast the same to

23     comply with the non-disclosure of certain information on it that, as

24     I understand, we still have not gotten approval to release.

25        Q.   Sir, this is a table prepared by Helge Brunborg, Ewa Tabeau, and

Page 15370

 1     Arve Hetland of the Prosecution demographic team and relates to these

 2     cases of persons for whom the dates of death provided problems, and Mr.

 3     Brunborg testified that this table reflected the corrected information or

 4     verifications sought from the BiH Ministry of Defence.  And I propose to

 5     look at the last few entries on the first page of this chart and I think

 6     you could see that of those four, one is listed as having been exhumed at

 7     Branjevo, one exhumed at Cancari Road 3, and one at Rahunici.  And I

 8     think you could see that the middle column is DOD -- I apologise.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Are we at the bottom of the page?  Yeah.

10        Q.   And the middle column is DOD corrected and POD corrected.  And if

11     we look at the last four persons on this page of the list, the date of

12     death has now been corrected as being 12 July 1995 instead of

13     January 1994 as had been originally reported.

14             Now, according to the letter from Ms. Tabeau and the section that

15     Judge Orie just made reference to, this was enough for her to stop her

16     review and conclude that this was a Srebrenica victim.  But I would ask

17     that you please look at the corrected POD, or place of death, that has

18     now been verified by the BiH Ministry of Defence, and for these four, it

19     is recorded as - and it's in B/C/S, I apologise to the translators but

20     I'll be switching to B/C/S - [Interpretation] The Srebrenica-Tuzla road,

21     Buljim village, Srebrenica-Tuzla road, Srebrenica-Tuzla road."

22             [In English] Now, sir, can you confirm for me based on your

23     investigations that these places and in particular Buljim refer to

24     locations where the column of Srebrenica males engaged minefields and was

25     engaged by the Serb forces in combat?

Page 15371

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, if we were to look at this list in its entirety, I think we

 3     would see that for a great number of the instances where the dates have

 4     now been changed to July of 1995, the BiH ministry has also confirmed

 5     that the place of death is either the road from Srebrenica to Tuzla or

 6     the village of Buljim.  Based on what you know, sir, can we on that bases

 7     exclude that these men perished from combat casualties or is the opposite

 8     true, that there is a considerable likelihood that they were in fact

 9     combat dead rather than executions?

10        A.   You know it's difficult to see and to conclude anything just

11     based on this list because I would need to review it more formally and

12     analyse all these sources and then to make a conclusion on that.  It's --

13     you know, even whether or not now these individuals are indeed included

14     in my report, I don't know from this list, so I would need to make

15     additional inquiries so only that I would be able to respond.  But if

16     they are included into my report, you know, it's the proof that those

17     individuals have been executed somewhere else than most probably

18     initially reported as being killed.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you, the last part of your answer,

20     initially reported as being killed.  Being killed far earlier, is that

21     what you wanted to refer to?

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes, correct, as initially reported to the ABiH

23     Ministry of Defence.  So you would need to review all these sources more

24     carefully and then to find out what is the problem.  So I haven't been

25     going into deep analysis of this list so I can't say.  So in order to

Page 15372

 1     tell anything right now, I would need to review it more deeply.

 2             MR. IVETIC:

 3        Q.   I agree that there is more work that needs to be done to review

 4     these things to come to a conclusion, but I just want to make sure that

 5     you understood that the place of death that I read out is not the initial

 6     place of death that was incorrectly recorded.  It's the confirmed place

 7     of death as reported by the Ministry of BiH when they in fact changed the

 8     date of death and responded to the inquiries of the Office of the

 9     Prosecutor to verify the initial information.  Having that in mind, does

10     your answer change?

11        A.   No, not really because I would need to see what was the reason

12     for them to and what sources they were used in order to confirm certain

13     facts.

14        Q.   Fair enough.  Now, I would like to look at one more name on the

15     list without mentioning the name.  It's the entry marked as ICMP 202/2

16     which is just three lines up from the first of the four individuals we

17     were just looking at at the bottom of page 1.  Here we see the notation

18     that verification was requested and yet there is not any new date.  Do

19     you know if that means that verification verified the 1994 date of death

20     for this person found in Zeleni Jadar number 5?  Again it's ICMP --

21        A.   Yes, I see.

22        Q.   -- protocol number 202/02?

23        A.   I see the entry.  I'm just checking your question again.  No,

24     I don't really think I can answer you this question -- you know, this

25     question, because it's the same problem, you know, about sources which

Page 15373

 1     were used for compiling this list.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Fair enough.  Then I'd like to move to another topic.

 3     Yesterday you testified about blindfolds and ligatures at transcript

 4     pages 15231 and 15230.  Now, your report, P1987 MFI'd, dated June of

 5     2013, I've looked through it and it only references one ligature found at

 6     Bljeceva 1, which is at page 24 of annex A, and 18 ligatures and four

 7     blindfolds as to Bisina, which is page 26 of annex A.  And when I look at

 8     your previous reports, I also do not find any totals of additional

 9     blindfold and ligatures.  So when you yesterday said that you had updated

10     the numbers, is it -- were you updating numbers from your reports or were

11     you perhaps updating the numbers from Dean Manning's year 2000 report as

12     to blindfolds and ligatures?  That wasn't clear to me so if you could

13     please tell me which is it.

14        A.   Yes, on top of the numbers or figures which were included in

15     Dean Manning's report I also counted the blindfolds and ligatures which

16     were found in subsequent years.  So for that I have used -- I've reviewed

17     the exhumation records on every single exhumation site, primary and

18     secondary graves, so that's how I was -- I came up with the total figure.

19        Q.   Okay.  And you'll agree with me that there are no total figures

20     in your reports that you prepared from 2009 to present date?

21        A.   There are, you will find the total figures but they are wrong.

22     They are actually -- now we have, I think, a double number.

23        Q.   Fair enough.  Now, Sunday evening we were provided with an

24     information report arising from your proofing session with the

25     Prosecution dated 18 August 2013.  In that report, the Prosecution states

Page 15374

 1     as follows:

 2             "The witness reviewed his 2013 report, 65 ter number 30169, and

 3     confirmed its accuracy to his current information.  The witness noted

 4     that his 2013 report does not present updated figures for blindfolds and

 5     ligatures recovered from Srebrenica-related grave sites and that these

 6     figures had not been updated.  However, several graves have since been

 7     exhumed including two or three new individual graves and Zalazje 2 and

 8     Kaldrmica, included in the 2013 report.  Both contain the remains of

 9     individuals appearing on the ICMP DNA match list, P01727, and the ICRC

10     list of Srebrenica missing.  The witness further noted that the number of

11     blindfolds and ligatures reported by Manning in 2000 have substantially

12     increased, see PO 1735, page 16."

13             First of all, sir, is this information that I received from the

14     Office of the Prosecutor correct and truthful?

15        A.   Yes, it is.

16        Q.   Are all of the additional blindfolds and ligatures that you

17     testified about yesterday in fact coming from two or three new individual

18     graves and Zalazje 2 and Kaldrmica?

19        A.   No, in fact I haven't included any of ligatures or found any of

20     ligatures and blindfolds in these two graves.

21        Q.   Okay.  Then I need to know what other sites did you review that

22     yielded the new additional blindfolds or ligatures that you are

23     testifying about?

24        A.   So these are all the sites along Cancari Road.

25        Q.   All or just the ones that were excavated after 2000?

Page 15375

 1        A.   What I'm adding is just the ones which were excavated after

 2     Dean Manning's report.

 3        Q.   Fair enough.

 4        A.   And the same goes for all the secondary graves on Hodzici road,

 5     secondary graves in Liplje, and that's it.

 6        Q.   Great.  That's what I was looking for, sir.  Now, these

 7     additional ligatures and blindfolds that were the subject of your

 8     testimony yesterday from these locations, were they discovered loose in

 9     graves or were they affixed to bodies that were in the graves?

10        A.   As I still recall they were -- most of them were fixed to the

11     bodies.  Some of them were also loose but minority of them.

12        Q.   When you say minority of them are you referring to the ones that

13     were loose?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Okay.  Now, were these -- were any of these suspected blindfolds

16     and ligatures discovered in areas surrounding the graves or at the

17     surface rather than being buried at the same depth as the human remains?

18        A.   I don't recall such instances.  They were all found inside the

19     grave.

20        Q.   Okay.  And did I understand you correctly to say that the source

21     that you reviewed was the exhumation records from the -- would it be the

22     BiH authorities that did those exhumations?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   Now, Dean Manning testified at this trial that he personally

25     examined every artefact before concluding whether or not it could be

Page 15376

 1     included or excluded as a potential ligature or blindfold for purposes of

 2     his report.  Did you perform that type of exhaustive physical review of

 3     the artefacts that you are testifying about?

 4        A.   No, I didn't have that possibility because at the time, at that

 5     time, the graves were exhumed by the ICTY and I didn't have access to

 6     artefacts which were found by the BiH authorities during the exhumations

 7     they were conducting.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9        A.   What I'm getting is information from the records which were

10     provided to us on exhumation itself.

11        Q.   Okay.  Now, if we take that your testimony is to additional

12     blindfolds and ligatures updating Mr. Manning's 2000 figures, by my math

13     that would mean that the additional grave sites which you mentioned which

14     were exhumed from the year 2000 to present yielded a total of 145

15     additional suspected blindfolds.  Does that number sound right?

16        A.   Yes, it may be.  The total number now is 593.

17        Q.   And I can tell you that at the time of Mr. Manning's report it

18     was 448 as evidenced by P1734, page 1.

19             Now, for these 145 additional suspected blindfolds, do you know

20     how many were recovered affixed around the head or affixed to some other

21     part of the body?

22        A.   No, I don't have that information.

23        Q.   Now, as to ligatures, the same source, P1734, page 1, identifies

24     that Mr. Manning found 423 suspected ligatures, and by my math, that

25     would mean that with your figures, the graves that you mentioned that

Page 15377

 1     were exhumed post 2000, yielded 351 additional ligatures.  Does that

 2     sound right?

 3        A.   Yes, the total now is 774.

 4        Q.   Thank you for that.  Now, based on your evidence yesterday, can

 5     we conclude that the vast majority of these 351 additional ligatures came

 6     from the Cancari site rather than being in relation to any of the other

 7     sites?  I believe you mentioned yesterday 200-and-some from Cancari?

 8        A.   They are from Cancari and Liplje sites.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Would be the majority of these?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Okay.  And -- okay, you've already answered that you can't tell

12     us except that a minority were found loose.

13             Then I'd like to move to my last topic and my last few questions,

14     sir, which is in relation to Godinjske Bare, and you testified yesterday

15     at transcript page 15250 to 15252 about that location.  You said this

16     site was the execution and recovery site for six bodies killed by the

17     Skorpion Unit and that this was roughly around 20 July 1995.  Now, in

18     this trial, Ms. Erin Gallagher from the Prosecution testified that the

19     investigations that were conducted into this incident and the video

20     cannot exclude the possibility that these particular killings occurred as

21     late as 24 July 2013.  And that's at transcript page 10136 to 10137.

22             Would you defer to this formulation as being a more accurate

23     description rather than what you said which was around 20 July?

24        A.   Yes, it's more accurate, definitely.

25        Q.   And do you agree with that?

Page 15378

 1        A.   Yes, I agree.

 2        Q.   And in relation to the so-called Skorpion video of this execution

 3     at Godinjske Bare, first of all, sir, have you had occasion to view the

 4     video in question?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Would you confirm for me that General Ratko Mladic is not present

 7     for any of the executions by the Skorpions of persons at Godinjske Bare?

 8        A.   Yes, I can confirm that, yes.

 9        Q.   Could you confirm that none of the participants in the video

10     mention General Mladic as having directed or ordered these executions or

11     that he would be apprised of the same?

12        A.   It's difficult to confirm that because it may be because I know

13     that these members of the Skorpion Unit were arrested in Serbia after

14     that and they testified about the incident, so if any of them referred to

15     General Mladic as being the one who directed them, I cannot really --

16        Q.   I'm asking you about the video, sir.

17        A.   If you're talking about the video itself, no, that one is clear.

18        Q.   And in relation to the location, Godinjske Bare, that geographic

19     location where these killings occurred and the bodies were found is, in

20     fact, much closer to Sarajevo than it is to Srebrenica.  Am I correct?

21        A.   Yes, correct.

22        Q.   And in fact, to travel to Godinjske Bare from Srebrenica, one

23     would have to go either through or around Sarajevo first; is that

24     correct?

25        A.   Most probably, but I would need to consult the map and also we

Page 15379

 1     have to take into consideration, you know, the state on the ground at the

 2     time.

 3        Q.   Of course.  Of course.

 4        A.   Yeah.

 5        Q.   Now, as to the providence of this Skorpion video of this

 6     execution crime, am I correct that the same only became known to exist in

 7     the year 2003 and was obtained by the Office of the Prosecutor of this

 8     Tribunal in 2004?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Okay.  Sir --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, for the last many, many questions,

12     I wondered whether there was any dispute about those facts.  When it was

13     found, what, whether it's closer to Sarajevo, I mean is there any dispute

14     about these matters?  Mr. Vanderpuye.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  There isn't a dispute

16     about it but I don't know whether Mr. Ivetic is simply laying the basis

17     for --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, I was just asking you whether there was a

19     dispute about it.

20             Mr. Ivetic, I interrupted you when you started saying -- you

21     started by saying, "Okay," and then you wanted to follow-up.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.  My follow-up was going to be to thank the

23     witness for his answers.  I'm finished.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I will -- I take it that will be appreciated by the

25     witness.  And it also confirms that it was not the basis for follow-up

Page 15380

 1     questions.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, there is one correction or,

 4     rather, I should ask for a clarification for the transcript.  It's at

 5     page 68, line 19, and it's framed as part of the question that Mr. Ivetic

 6     put as to the date of the Skorpions killings.  And he says as late as

 7     24 July 2013, and I would assume that he meant 1995, but I'm not sure

 8     about that so I'd ask for a clarification.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  1995.  1995.  I apologise, I misspoke.  It was an

10     error on my part.  It was intended as being 1995.

11        Q.   And I would ask the witness if that's how he understood my

12     question and if his answer should be understood in that same manner?

13        A.   Yes, I can confirm that, yes.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I'm done.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

16             Mr. Vanderpuye, any questions in re-examination?

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I do have a few, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

20                           Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

21        Q.   Mr. Janc, quite briefly, you were asked a number of questions

22     about combat-related casualties as concerns the contents of your report.

23     Now, you've been an investigator in the Srebrenica crimes for a number of

24     years.  With respect to the locations where the primary mass grave sites

25     are found, are you aware of any ongoing combat activity in and around the

Page 15381

 1     areas, those areas, at around the times that those executions occurred?

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And if I could have the assistance of the

 3     Registrar, I'd like to have P -- wait a minute.  65 ter 19221, please.

 4             I'm sorry, I'm mistaken.  It's P1988.  Apologise.

 5        Q.   This is the map that I showed you yesterday.  The one that you

 6     prepared, in fact.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I see the map on the screens but not on ours.  There

 9     we are.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  I'd like to focus first on the top

11     half of this map.  That's quite good, I think.

12        Q.   In the area of, at the very top, Pilica Dom, Branjevo military

13     farm, are you aware of what evidence there is concerning the occurrence

14     of combat activities in mid-July, specifically on or about the 16th and

15     17th of July, 1995?

16        A.   No, there is no combat activities in that area.

17        Q.   Do you know where that area is relative to the defence lines of

18     the Republika Srpska?

19        A.   It's several kilometres away, so roughly 40, 50 kilometres away.

20        Q.   And the area of Branjevo military farm and Pilica Dom, is it

21     closer, well, where is it relative to Serbia?

22        A.   It's -- Serbia is just across the border.  It's just across the

23     river on the right-hand side so a few kilometres away.

24        Q.   What about the area of Kozluk?  And there I'm referring

25     specifically to the period of around 15 July 1995.  During the course of

Page 15382

 1     your investigations, did you learn of any active combat activity that was

 2     occurring in that area or about that area on the 15th of July or around

 3     the 15th of July, 1995?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   What about the dam near Petkovci?  Were you aware of any active

 6     combat activity that was occurring in that area on or around the 14th and

 7     15th of July, 1995?

 8        A.   For the area of Petkovci and also for Orahovac, we can join them

 9     together, we can say that those two areas are closest to the areas where

10     the combat activities were ongoing.  But still far away.  So I'm talking

11     here of Baljkovica area which is left or west to those two execution

12     sites.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say "far away," could you specify, was that

14     five kilometres, ten kilometres?  What is far away for one is nearby for

15     another.

16             THE WITNESS:  Yes, let's say around 20 kilometres, maybe, away.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Now, you indicated that there was some combat-related activity

20     occurring in the areas near -- nearest Petkovci and Orahovac.  In the

21     area of responsibility of what units, if you can recall?

22        A.   Yes, in the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade.

23        Q.   And do you know, can you recall what specific battalions are in

24     that area?

25        A.   I think it's 4th Battalion and 7th Battalion, 1st Battalion, but

Page 15383

 1     I'm not quite sure if I'm really precise on that.

 2        Q.   Do you know whether or not any casualties that were occurring

 3     there during the breakthrough of the column, whether the Muslim forces or

 4     people left behind their dead or took them with them to the extent that

 5     they could?

 6        A.   I do know that some wounded members of the column had been taken

 7     with them and also I think some dead bodies have been taken with them to

 8     the free territory.

 9        Q.   Let me move down the map, if I could, to some other areas.  In

10     the area of Glogova, Ravnice, can you tell us was there evidence of

11     combat-related activity occurring in those areas?

12        A.   The Kravica execution site is the closest to the Pobudje area

13     where we have the highest number of the surface remains found and

14     I testified about how they were found.  And now when we are all -- when

15     you're asking me all the time about the combat activities so it's

16     difficult to understand, you know, what do we all mean by the combat.  So

17     my understanding of the combat is fight between two -- two sides so --

18     but in case what happened, what was happening actually on the route,

19     it's -- you know, it was raising my question all the time because every

20     single trial so far I've been -- I'm asking the same questions about the

21     combat activities in these areas.  So my logic tells me that the combat

22     activities is, you know, you are fighting, you know, between -- the two

23     enemies or two sides are fighting.

24             I'm not a military expert on this but I did a kind of research on

25     this issue because I was always wondering, you know, if this is a real

Page 15384

 1     combat or is it just, you know, a way of telling what was -- what was

 2     happening on the ground because what would -- naturally everybody would

 3     expect that you have casualties on both sides, so and this is what I was

 4     trying to establish, you know.  If there is a real fight, how many

 5     casualties would be on each side.  And reviewing the records on war

 6     histories and everything, the ratio is if there is a real fight man on

 7     man, it's usually the casualties would be 50/50, or 40/60.  So in cases

 8     where you have a dominant side, one side is stronger than the other,

 9     which was also I think the case in Srebrenica events, so then the ratio

10     is -- is lower but still, let's say, 1.10.  You would lose one of your

11     soldiers for ten enemy soldiers.

12             So if you apply this to the evidence in front of me, for example,

13     if we say that people collected from the ground are casualties of combat

14     activities, so we have 750 so far, it means on the other side, there

15     should have been at least or around 70 dead Serb soldiers at the time

16     so -- but we have minimal number of dead Serb soldiers at the time in the

17     area throughout the passage of the column, so, and if we apply this

18     further to the total number of individuals so far identified in these

19     mass graves, which is 7.000, so if this was -- if this was coming out

20     from the combat activities, that would be at least -- there should have

21     been at least 700 Serb soldiers killed at the time, which it did not

22     happen.  So what we have here, we have a really low number of casualties

23     on Serb side and a huge number on the other side.  So my logic is telling

24     me so this is not the combat at all, but, you know, it's only if one side

25     is so dominant in these things, it's only possible that there were

Page 15385

 1     executions.

 2        Q.   Just bear with me one second.

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I have actually a quite a few

 5     number of questions, not an extensive amount of time but probably in the

 6     area of 15, 20 minutes, I think, and I --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  What changes your position now, Mr. Vanderpuye?

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm sorry?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  What changes your position in a couple of minutes

10     from -- I mean I consulted with you on what to do with the next

11     witness --

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and now you have --

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It's just that Ms. Stewart has informed me that

15     it's time for the break.  I can continue going but I just wanted to let

16     you know that I have still a fair number of questions to ask.  I don't

17     think it will be substantially more than I estimated unless I've already

18     exceeded it, but it's not my intention to go very long with this witness.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you limit yourself?  I mean, we have to be

20     very practical.  One second, please.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, the Chamber is about to grant another

23     ten minutes for Mr. Vanderpuye.  Would that allow for continuing at this

24     moment?

25             MR. IVETIC:  We agree to that.  However, we already have three

Page 15386

 1     questions in recross coming from this, so in that instance, it's probably

 2     best to release the other witness if there is any -- I don't know how

 3     much Mr. Vanderpuye has for redirect yet to go, but I have no objection

 4     to another ten minutes but --

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We will take the break now, and the next witness is

 7     excused for the day and we expect him tomorrow morning.

 8             But first, Mr. Janc should be escorted out of the courtroom.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And we resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 1.19 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

14             I use the time meanwhile to deal with the following matter.  The

15     Chamber notes that the English and the B/C/S transcripts for the video

16     Exhibit P521 do not fully reflect the conversations recorded in that

17     video.  The Chamber therefore instructs the Prosecution to upload

18     complete English and B/C/S transcripts for this video exhibit reflecting

19     the English subtitles contained in that video.  And the Registry is also

20     hereby instructed to make the necessary replacements once the corrected

21     transcripts have been uploaded by the Prosecution.

22                          [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, please proceed.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Yes, Mr. Janc, I was asking you about your understanding from

Page 15387

 1     your work on the Srebrenica investigation of what transpired in relation

 2     to certain combat-related activities while the column was moving from

 3     Srebrenica to the free territory.  I think I had just begun to focus you

 4     on the lower part of this map and you were explaining about the area

 5     around Kravica warehouse and so forth.

 6             With respect to the movement of the column --

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could just move to the top of the map once

 8     again.  Yes.

 9        Q.   With respect to the movement of the column through the RS

10     territory to the BiH-controlled territory, do you have any information

11     that any part of that column reached an area as high as, that is, as far

12     north as, the Branjevo military farm or Kozluk?

13        A.   No.  There is no such information.

14        Q.   Were you a member of the Office of the Prosecutor during the time

15     that the battalion -- deputy battalion commander Lazar Ristic testified

16     during the Tolimir case?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Do you recall what Lazar Ristic said in respect of the casualties

19     suffered by the Muslim side during the movement of the column through the

20     area or within the area of the 4th and 6th Battalion on its way to the

21     free territory?

22        A.   No, not really.  You will have to jog my memory.

23        Q.   All right.  If I may.  In that trial, that is the Tolimir trial,

24     on the 2nd of February, 2011, at transcript page 9300, beginning at

25     line 8, on cross-examination by General Tolimir, he gave the following

Page 15388

 1     answers to the following questions.

 2             "Q.  Witness, tell us" --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, is this an introduction for

 4     follow-up questions or just whether the witness -- because the testimony

 5     of that witness, of course, should -- if that is one of the things you

 6     are aiming at, same question as I earlier put to Mr. Ivetic, are we

 7     supposed to rely on what that witness said or ...

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  What I'm going to ask Mr. Janc at the end of

 9     this is whether or not he took into consideration what he heard and what

10     Mr. Ristic said regarding the disposition of those remains in his

11     assessment of what were primary, secondary graves and what the

12     relationship were -- what the relationship of those graves were -- was to

13     those casualties.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could we first ask the question in a very

15     general way, whether apart from what the witness exactly said at the

16     time, whether he -- this witness has considered that in his assessment

17     because if the question is no, then we can move on right away, and if the

18     question is yes, we could further explore the matter.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:

22        Q.   Mr. Janc, did you understand what Mr. President said?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Are you able to answer that question?

25        A.   You know, because I'm not really sure what Mr. Lazar Ristic

Page 15389

 1     testified about so it's difficult for me to say or to state whether or

 2     not I have taken into consideration his statement as well, but most

 3     probably I did because this would be valuable information, whatever he

 4     said, regarding the disposition or movements of the bodies which were

 5     recovered.

 6        Q.   Would it help refresh your recollection if I read to you what he

 7     stated during the course of his testimony?

 8        A.   Yes, you can.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  With your leave, Mr. President, I would propose

10     to read that portion of Mr. Ristic's testimony.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  If it's a short portion, then okay.  If it's long,

12     please summarise the gist of it.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14        Q.   The first part of it is relatively short and it's at page 9300,

15     as I indicated, line 8, testimony from February 2nd, 2011.  On

16     cross-examination General Tolimir put this question to Mr. Ristic:

17             "Q.  Following the breakthrough by the enemy which breached your

18     defence line, was it the Muslim army or the Serbian army that collected

19     dead bodies?

20             "A.  Well, the Muslims collected theirs and the Serbs collected

21     their own."

22             Then he asked another question at line 16:

23             "Q.  Does this mean that the enemy soldiers gathered their dead

24     and took them along as they passed through your territory?

25             "A.  I believe so.  It was when we -- during this activity, we

Page 15390

 1     would receive word from our own soldiers of the casualties that we had,

 2     and wherever we went in the area of Baljkovica where the command post was

 3     situated and thereabout, we never came across a single Muslim casualty.

 4             "Q.  As you were searching the terrain for casualties, did you

 5     find any Muslim victims in the area?

 6             "A.  No."

 7             Do you recall that testimony of Mr. Ristic in relation to

 8     combat-related activities in the area of the responsibility of his

 9     battalion or thereabout?

10        A.  Yes, now I do recall it, yes.

11        Q.  Did you take that into consideration when you were assessing and

12     reviewing the information concerning the designations of primary and

13     secondary mass graves in relation to the Srebrenica incidents as reported

14     in your 2013 update?

15        A.  Yes, and it corresponds exactly with the findings on the ground,

16     that many people were never buried, their bodies were left behind and

17     they were collected after so many years from the ground, from the

18     surface.

19        Q.   What I'd like to show you --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask the witness, do you know whether that

21     witness, Mr. Ristic, I do understand, what army did he belong to?

22     Because in order to understand his answer we should know.

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes, he belonged to the VRS.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And he said they never came across any Muslim

25     victims when -- is that ...

Page 15391

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes, correct.  This is area north, near Baljkovica,

 2     so in that area -- sorry.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It's limited to that area.

 4             THE WITNESS:  It's limited to that area, yeah.  But even in that

 5     area we do have some surface remains on the ground so -- but they are

 6     around that area and also we have a few, as we can see it on the screen

 7     now, we have a few smaller mass graves there, so there were some

 8     casualties in that area.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Mr. Janc, you were asked a question by Mr. Ivetic on

13     cross-examination relating to certain evidence of an individual, RM306,

14     and that was with regard to communal graves.  You might remember the

15     discussion.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   In your experience, in your investigation of this case, are you

18     aware of any concerted efforts made by Serb forces, whether they be

19     police or army, going into the woods, into the hills, to recover the

20     remains of dead Muslims?

21        A.   No.  There are no such reports and we haven't -- or the

22     investigation itself did not reveal any such information over the years.

23        Q.   Do you have any information with respect to the bodies that were

24     recovered, in fact, by some Serb officials, whether they be civilian or

25     military, that there were some bodies recovered and where they were

Page 15392

 1     recovered from?

 2        A.   It relates to the bodies along the Konjevic-Bratunac road.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we can just move on the map so we can have

 4     that area right in front of the Chamber to see it.  And you'll have to

 5     blow up the area around Konjevic Polje.  Yeah, that's fine.

 6        Q.   I'm sorry, Mr. Janc.  I didn't mean to interrupt you.

 7        A.   Yes, so this is one area where they were collected.  Then we have

 8     the area around, and in the Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac, stadium in

 9     Bratunac, so these areas were cleaned up.

10        Q.   Any information about similar activity going on by Serb

11     authorities, civilian or military, up north in the Zvornik area?

12        A.   No, not to my knowledge.

13        Q.   And with respect to the bodies that were being recovered by Serb

14     authorities along this Bratunac and Konjevic Polje road, in that area,

15     where in that area relative to the road were those bodies recovered?

16        A.   It's my understanding that it was just next to the road, not far

17     away from the road.  They didn't go off the road very far into the woods

18     but just along the road, according to my understanding, what you could

19     see from the road itself.

20        Q.   According to your investigations and what you've learned from the

21     Srebrenica investigation in general, what -- is there anything that would

22     have interfered with the capacity of the Serb forces, that is, the VRS,

23     to collect bodies at or around the time that the Muslim column was

24     passing through the area of Zvornik in the direction of the free

25     territory?

Page 15393

 1        A.   Yes, there were several activities going on at the same time.  We

 2     know that after Srebrenica, the Serb forces went down to Zepa, they were

 3     engaged in that area, and soon after that also to Bihac area, so they

 4     were quite engaged at that time.  And many forces were rerouted to those

 5     other parts of the country at the time.

 6        Q.   I'd like to show you P1481 very quickly.  Let me just quickly ask

 7     you:  Have you had a chance to review aerial images of mass grave sites

 8     related to the Srebrenica events?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   All right.  I'd like to show you page 16, we'll start with, and

11     we'll go --

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  This, for the record, reads "Orahovac, Lazete,"

13     and we'll go to page 17.  And perhaps we can blow that up so that

14     Mr. Janc can see the image.

15        Q.   Are you familiar with this image, Mr. Janc?

16        A.   Yes, it's an aerial image from Lazete.

17        Q.   Okay.  And what does it show?

18        A.   On the left-hand side it's dated 5th July 1995.  We don't have

19     any disturbances on the soil.  And on the right-hand side, dated 27 of

20     July, we have huge disturbances on earth.

21        Q.   Let me show you page 18.  Do you recognise this image?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   What does it show?

24        A.   They are dated first on the left-hand side 7 September 1995,

25     again there is disturbances on the earth.  And then on the right-hand

Page 15394

 1     side, 27 September 1995, we see changes on that same part of the earth,

 2     so that the soil was again disturbed.

 3        Q.   And what does it show?  Does it show a different grave or the

 4     same grave as the previous photograph?  Or image?

 5        A.   Now I would have to check but it may be that these are two

 6     different, one is Lazete 2 and the other one Lazete 1.  It's definitely

 7     Lazete 1.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Let me go to the next image on the following

 9     page, please.

10        Q.   Do you recognise this image?

11        A.   Yes, this is from Lazete 2 site.  It's more or less the same as

12     we have seen it on the previous one.  Disturbances and changes on the

13     earth between 7 September and 27 September 1995.

14        Q.   Have you reviewed images similar to this relative to the

15     disturbed mass graves that are listed in your report?

16        A.   Yes, I did, many of them.

17        Q.   And relative to those graves, are the dates that you can see

18     disturbances on the aerial images the same or similar to the ones that

19     I've just shown you relative to Orahovac?

20        A.   Yes, they are.  They are either from beginning, end of September

21     and also beginning of October, if I'm not mistaken.

22        Q.   Did you have a chance to review aerial images with respect to the

23     secondary graves that are also listed in your report?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Do you recall reviewing any graves associated with the -- any

Page 15395

 1     Cancari Road graves?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And you were asked some questions about those secondary graves by

 4     Mr. Ivetic on cross-examination.  I'd like to show you page 64 -- bear

 5     with me for one moment, please.  Let's start by -- let me show you 65

 6     first and then I'll show you 64.

 7             Do you recognise this image?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And has a designation CR1.  Can you tell us what that denotes?

10        A.   It's Cancari 1, Cancari Road 1 secondary grave.

11        Q.   The date of this image is 2nd October 1995.

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   Can I show you the previous page, page 64?  Do you recognise this

14     image?

15        A.   Yes.  This is the same spot.  The picture is taken on 7th of

16     September, 1995, and we have no disturbances on the soil, on the earth.

17        Q.   What does that suggest to you, in terms of the burial of combat

18     casualties in that area on or around the time that the Muslim column was

19     passing through that area on its way to the free territory as a primary

20     grave, for example?

21        A.   It's obvious that those graves, secondary graves, have been

22     opened at the same time as the primary graves and we even have, I think,

23     several aerial images when we can see still graves being opened.  I think

24     this Cancari Road number 1 was already closed at the time, on that date

25     of October, 2nd of October, 1995, it's already closed.

Page 15396

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, could you tell the Chamber how much time

 2     you would need for further?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I have exactly 11 questions, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  11 questions.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  I should be about 6 to 8 minutes.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm fine to leave it as it is, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we leave it as it is and we invite Mr. Ivetic

 8     to put any further questions to the witness.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. Janc.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Thank you, counsel.

11                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

12        Q.   Sir, what written sources did you review for your testimony as to

13     ratio of combat casualties, if any?

14        A.   It was actually an online review of various sources.  It

15     wasn't -- I didn't review many but this was just a quick review on what

16     you can find on website.

17        Q.   Did those articles that you reviewed relate to the type of combat

18     described in the two Bosnian Muslim witness statements that we looked at

19     today?

20        A.   No.  They were different, actually different articles from

21     different wars, so I didn't want to limit myself to specific event but

22     I was just trying to get an idea how -- how many -- how these ratios

23     would be presented over the years.

24        Q.   Did you consult with any military experts to reach or verify your

25     conclusions as to ratio of combat casualties?

Page 15397

 1        A.   No, and I haven't, and that's what exactly I was, you know,

 2     trying to say, that I'm not a military expert on these things and my

 3     conclusion -- not conclusion but what I was able to find online can be

 4     verified, I'm pretty sure, by military experts.

 5        Q.   For minefields, would you expect the Serb side to have casualties

 6     on their side?  For minefields experienced by the Bosnian Muslim column

 7     leaving Srebrenica, would you expect the Serb side to have casualties

 8     from those engagements?

 9        A.   If they crossed them, that then would be casualties, yes, most

10     probably.  But I don't -- I don't have -- I don't remember there were

11     instances, such instances during the takeover of Srebrenica or after.

12        Q.   For incidences where the Bosnian Muslim column encountered

13     shelling, would you expect casualties on the Serb side?

14        A.   Yes.  And there were some casualties.  I know for a few of them

15     being killed in Kravica area.  There were some casualties close to

16     Orahovac, but not many.  I know that the figure, the total figure of

17     losses on VRS side was around 50, around 50, something like that.

18        Q.   Did your research include looking into the status of civilians

19     who joined a military column?

20        A.   In what sense, what do you mean if I have research -- what I

21     found actually was the number included the ratio included also the number

22     of civilians which were -- which were -- which suffered during those

23     combats, yes.

24        Q.   Okay.  At temporary transcript page 75, line 16 through 18, you

25     are recorded as saying:

Page 15398

 1             "So my logic is telling me so this is not combat at all but, you

 2     know, if it's only one side is so dominant in these things, it's only

 3     possible that there were executions?"

 4             Is that a personal predisposition that you held at the time that

 5     you drafted your 2003 report that has been used in evidence today?

 6        A.   No.  Actually not.  I did research actually just recently, a few

 7     days ago, and it's just happened you know that coincides with --

 8     coincided with what the other evidence -- evidence before this Tribunal

 9     are showing in relation to Srebrenica events.

10        Q.   I see.  So this conclusion that I just read came to you between

11     June 29th and today's date rather than coming from before?

12        A.   Yes, correct.

13        Q.   Okay.  Is it your position that surface remains were executions

14     rather than combat casualties?

15        A.   It's everything.  We have evidence on executions, we have

16     evidence on combat casualties, we have evidence on suicides, and other

17     causes of that, so it's about everything.

18        Q.   I thank you again for answering my questions.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I thank you for the indulgence.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

21             Since the Chamber has no further questions for you, Mr. Janc, we

22     would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having

23     answered all the questions that were put to you either by the parties or

24     by the Bench, and we wish you a safe return home again.

25             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

Page 15399

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You are excused.

 2                          [The witness withdrew]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we adjourn I would like to briefly deal with

 4     a matter related to the three Rule 92 bis decisions.

 5             It is a follow-up by the Chamber in relation to three Rule 92 bis

 6     decisions which admitted a number of documents on the condition that the

 7     required Rule 92 bis attestations be filed.  Even though the attestations

 8     were not filed, the Chamber reviewed them as uploaded into e-court by the

 9     Prosecution.  And as a result, the Chamber now confirms admission of the

10     following exhibits:  P1904, P1909, P1911, P1916, P1918, P1919, P1921,

11     P1924, P1931, P1933, P1935, P1938, P1940, and P1942, up to and including

12     P1944.  P1953 up to and including P1957.

13             The Defence has not been given a specific opportunity to comment

14     on the attestations which were uploaded into e-court.  If there is any

15     problem with the attestations, the Defence has an opportunity to ask the

16     Chamber to revisit the matter, but in the absence of any such steps, the

17     Chamber will -- the decision to admit these documents into evidence

18     stands.

19             Then we will adjourn for the day and we will resume tomorrow,

20     Wednesday, the 21st of August, 2013, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same

21     courtroom, III.

22                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.11 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day of

24                           August, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.