Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16445

 1                           Monday, 9 September 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.  Madam Registrar, would

 6     you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Mr. McCloskey, the Chamber was informed that there was a brief

11     preliminary matter to be raised.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President, good morning.  Good morning,

13     everyone.  I just wanted to notify you I've spoken to the Defence and we

14     have agreed to notify you of your question regarding P2126.  This was a

15     15 July intercept where the term "parcels" was in quote, 3500 parcels,

16     and your question was how did that occur.

17             Well, we found that on page 5478 of the Popovic transcript.  We

18     had put on the intercept operator that had taken that intercept and he

19     was asked by the Prosecution how those quotes ended up in the final

20     version, and unfortunately he said he didn't remember.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's all.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

24             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

25             Meanwhile, I'll deal with the following:

Page 16446

 1             On the 18th of July, the Chamber issued its decision on the

 2     Prosecution's 9th motion to admit evidence pursuant to Rule 92 bis as a

 3     public decision.  The Chamber was subsequently notified by the

 4     Prosecution that a witness discussed in the decision might request

 5     protective measures and on the 19th of July the Chamber ordered the

 6     Registry to provisionally place the decision under seal pending the

 7     outcome of such an application.

 8             On the 30th of August, 2013, the Chamber granted the requested

 9     protective measures, which included the use of a pseudonym and the

10     Chamber therefore instructs the Registry to make the decision permanently

11     confidential.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Butler.  You are reminded again

14     that you're bound by the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of

15     your testimony that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing

16     but the truth.

17                           WITNESS:  RICHARD BUTLER [Resumed]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  In the next 3600 seconds, you'll be further examined

19     by Mr. McCloskey.  Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

22        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Butler.

23        A.   Good morning, sir.

24        Q.   Can you give us a brief synopsis of your analysis regarding the

25     events from 17 July through about 19 but specifically regarding your

Page 16447

 1     conclusions related to the concern the VRS had for the so-called local

 2     workers for MSF?  Can you tell us briefly what you saw happen or what you

 3     take happened from the -- some of the materials and then we'll go through

 4     a couple of those materials to highlight what you're saying?

 5        A.   Yes, sir.  There are a number of documents and intercepts which

 6     relate to the circumstances by which the VRS, VRS government and MSF were

 7     interacting, as the MSF organisation was attempting to leave the now

 8     empty enclave.  The primary concern at least as far as the VRS was

 9     concerned, was that there were a number of individuals who were described

10     as local staff members of MSF who fell in the category that the VRS noted

11     as able bodied Muslim men, and there was a number of discussions as to

12     whether or not those individuals should be allowed to accompany the

13     international staff as well as other local staff members who were female

14     or who were elderly out with the main body.

15        Q.   And the decision process to -- what to do with these able bodied

16     men, was there any indications that General Tolimir and General Mladic

17     were involved in that decision?

18        A.   Yes, sir.  Some of the intercepts reflect the fact that an

19     awareness by senior members of the VRS specifically Colonel Jankovic,

20     other members of the Main Staff, General Tolimir, that there was a

21     current process in place that they were interested in seeing

22     accomplished.

23        Q.   And in the end, those --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you, you started by answering, "Yes,

25     sir," where the question focused on General Tolimir and General Mladic.

Page 16448

 1     Now, in your answer you referred to General Tolimir but not anymore to

 2     General Mladic.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  One of the documents that you'll note as

 4     an intercept refers to the procedure and again the euphemism, "the boss,"

 5     being discussed by various Main Staff members.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   All right.  In the end, those able bodied men were allowed to

10     leave and did survive?

11        A.   Yes, sir.  That is my understanding.

12        Q.   All right.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to P1374, and confidential, please.

14        Q.   And we'll see -- we see that this is an intercept, and from your

15     knowledge, do you know this to be 17 July?

16        A.   Yes, sir, that is correct.

17        Q.   And we see that it's between Trivic and Colonel Jankovic and

18     Badem is mentioned.  And we see if we go down in the middle of it, we see

19     that Trivic tells Jankovic that, You should write what you want to do.

20     Jankovic says, Yes, and send it urgently by code up to Tolimir.  Jankovic

21     says, I'm in no position to write.  I'm culling here and there is listen

22     to what I'm telling you, Jankovic says, All right.  Trivic says, And the

23     commander will decide with Tolimir and send you a reply.

24             Now, this obviously doesn't tell us what they are interested in,

25     but who do you take the commander to be in this context?

Page 16449

 1        A.   I would take the commander to be General Mladic.

 2        Q.   All right.  And based on the other documents you've looked at,

 3     what do you believe this is a reference to, what is Jankovic concerned

 4     about?

 5        A.   Colonel Jankovic at this time was dealing with issues related to,

 6     first, as you're aware he was relating to issues with the wounded Muslim

 7     men who were still in Bratunac under -- at the Bratunac medical centre

 8     under UN supervision, and then of course later he's -- in this particular

 9     context he's also dealing with the situation with the personnel from MSF.

10        Q.   All right.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's now go to P01515, if we could go to page 2

12     in e-court and should be page 3 initially in the B/C/S and then page 4 in

13     the B/C/S.

14        Q.   And this is a document the Trial Chamber has seen before where

15     the typed version was in the name of Momir Nikolic and we've now gone to

16     the handwritten version which we see is RJ, and who do you take that RJ

17     to mean?

18        A.   Those initials correspond to Colonel Jankovic.

19        Q.   All right.  And if we could go to the next page in the B/C/S, and

20     under paragraph 3, we can see some of what you've been talking about, and

21     paragraph 3 starts off with MSF, and a convoy and then it says, Will you

22     please tell me what stand to take in terms of authorisation for

23     evacuation of the international organisation, MSF, in fact, how to deal

24     with the so-called local staff.  And it says this also applies to the

25     interpreters of the military monitors and UNPROFOR.  Is that the issue we

Page 16450

 1     are talking about?

 2        A.   Yes, sir.

 3        Q.   All right.  Now, let's go to an intercept, P00031, that the

 4     Trial Chamber has also seen through an MSF nurse a long time ago, and we

 5     see that this is dated 19 July, and at 1432 hours, and it's between

 6     Jankovic and Colonel Djurdjic.  Can you remind us who Colonel Djurdjic

 7     is, what his job was?

 8        A.   Yes, sir, Colonel Djurdjic is an officer of the Main Staff whose

 9     portfolio covers dealing with the various international organisations, at

10     least within the context that the VRS dealt with them.

11        Q.   All right.  And we can see in this Jankovic and Djurdjic start

12     speaking to each other and Djurdjic says, Regarding what you were asking,

13     and then says, The boss has ordered that they be halted.  Who do you

14     think the boss would be in that context?

15        A.   Again both of these officers are members of the Main Staff so

16     I would take it that the boss at this particular case would be their

17     superior which would be General Mladic.

18        Q.   And what do you -- as you go on in this intercept, what do you

19     believe Djurdjic is referring to, what should be halted?

20        A.   What should be halted was allowing the military age Muslim men to

21     depart.

22        Q.   All right.  And let's just take a look at this.  It says,

23     Djurdjic goes on to say, This is what he wrote.  And who would the "he"

24     be?

25        A.   Again the same superior.

Page 16451

 1        Q.   All right.  Then he mentions Kristina Smit and various -- another

 2     person.  Go on to the next page in English.  And sorry, it should be page

 3     3 in the B/C/S, and as we see this it goes in and says, What about those

 4     young men.  And what do you take those to mean?

 5        A.   I take that to be the military-age Bosnian Muslim men who were

 6     part of the MSF local staff.

 7        Q.   And then they start talking about a list of various Muslim men.

 8     And then down the page, Djurdjic says, All right, they have the

 9     permission but you have the procedure, you too took part in.  Then

10     Jankovic says, Great, they don't hear each other very well.  Then

11     Djurdjic says, The procedure is such, God damn it, that it should be

12     checked whether these who are the able bodied or older than 60.  Jankovic

13     says, They are able bodied.  Djurdjic says, They are?  Jankovic says,

14     Yes.  Djurdjevic says, So that's the procedure.

15             Please go to the next page.  And Djurdjevic says, And you saw

16     what you left behind in Bratunac the other day.  What do you believe

17     that's a reference to?

18        A.   Colonel Jankovic was present in Bratunac during the -- from at

19     least the period of the 12th through this particular day, so he would

20     have firsthand knowledge of the separation of the military age men that

21     occurred in Potocari and what happened to them in Bratunac and what

22     happened to them subsequently.

23        Q.   All right.  And then they we can see after that they talk about

24     an orphan, a small kid, some elderly people, then down near the end, the

25     last part of the page, Djurdjic says, Let the elderly go and tonight when

Page 16452

 1     Tosa arrives you and him must sure you consult some more, please.  What

 2     do you take that to involve or mean?

 3        A.   In this particular context I'm not sure and I don't believe that

 4     General Tolimir actually went to Bratunac.  I take it to believe that

 5     General Tolimir in this context was coming back to the Main Staff

 6     headquarters and this instruction was that when General Tolimir arrived

 7     back to the Main Staff headquarters, Colonel Jankovic should again call

 8     him and discuss the issue further.

 9        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  That's all I wanted to do with this

10     particular topic.

11             Now, another topic I'd like to go to, briefly, is that I know you

12     have spoken at length about the security branch, how the security branch

13     functioned in relation to military-legal matters dealing with military

14     police, dealing with prisoners of war.  You've already talked a bit about

15     that.  And if we could go to 65 ter 5809.  Have you identified

16     documents -- certain documents that helped show how the security organ

17     dealt with the issues of counter-intelligence, military legal, to help

18     their basic -- help define the basic job in this -- and this is a

19     document from 29 January 1995, from General Zivanovic talking about the

20     changes in the organisation of the VRS security and intel support.  If we

21     could go to the second page, we can see in paragraph 2 there is a very

22     brief description of how command works and how the -- some of the other

23     basics.  Also down at the bottom of the English paragraph 5 it refers to

24     a 28 October Main Staff instruction.

25             Does this document help identify -- help explain a bit that

Page 16453

 1     instruction which the Court has seen before in depth, and I won't go over

 2     that with you, that is P1577, that instruction that's referenced there.

 3     Just briefly, Mr. Butler, does this help in understanding the process,

 4     the security organ processes?

 5        A.   Yes, sir.  Especially with relation to how they apply in the

 6     Drina Corps.  As I've indicated in my prior testimony in this issue, the

 7     VRS did by and large adopt the regulations and the practices of the

 8     former Yugoslav National Army and that included an extensive body of

 9     rules and regulations pertaining to the security branches of the various

10     armed forces and the JNA.  Throughout the course of the war, in order to

11     make these bodies more efficiently run and to deal with issue that were

12     cropping up during the war, the Main Staff published guidance in the form

13     of orders and other technical documents reminding the corps and the

14     brigades about what the specific roles and functions are of the security

15     organs, and that they should try and use these organs precisely as

16     defined in the regulations to the degree that they could.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'd offer that document into evidence.

18             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05809 receives number P2133,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we now go to 65 ter 5810.

24        Q.   Mr. Butler, this, you'll see, is a document from the Drina Corps

25     chief of security, Vujadin Popovic, dated 7 February 1995.  And he's

Page 16454

 1     speaking on the specifics related to the military police.  We see

 2     paragraph 1 is number 1, is called the command of the military police; 2,

 3     level of training; 3, mobilisation.  I don't think we need to go through

 4     the entire document but does this document from Popovic help understand

 5     how a corps security branch officer deals with and is associated with

 6     military police?

 7        A.   Yes, sir, it does.  When we talk about the issues of -- you know,

 8     one of the issues we talk about the various years and proceedings related

 9     to Srebrenica of the role and functions and authorities of various

10     security branch officers in relation to the authorities and

11     responsibilities of commanders, one of the things that we note that is

12     occurring in accordance with the regulations is that the security

13     officers are giving orders that are limited to what they are allowed to

14     under the regulations to provide technical guidance and technical

15     direction.  This particular document is essentially a request by the

16     corps security officer to the various brigades to examine how they have

17     historically been using their military police forces, provide examples,

18     and then the corps will send that information back to the Main Staff

19     which is doing a larger analysis as to the global use of military police

20     units by the VRS.

21        Q.   All right.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I offer that documents into evidence.

23             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05810 receives number P2134,

Page 16455

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we go to 65 ter 4183.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel kindly speak closer to the

 5     microphone, please?  Thank you.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   And Mr. Butler, this is a 15 April 1995 document from the

 8     Drina Corps command security department in the name of the chief of

 9     security, Vujadin Popovic, and it regards the arrest and detention of

10     POWs and is an instruction.  We see that it's directed to various

11     brigades of the Drina Corps including the 5th Military Police Battalion.

12     And we see this has to do with prisoners of war and I don't want to get

13     into this in detail but does this document on its face help us show us

14     how a -- the corps security chief deal with issues related to POWs?

15        A.   Yes, sir.  I mean, here again, he's providing guidance as to the

16     handling procedures of POWs in order to ensure that information that

17     might be of security interest to the opposing forces can be protected and

18     not disclosed.

19        Q.   Do we note in paragraph 1, which should be the next page in the

20     English, that prisoners of war should be -- have their hands tied and be

21     blindfolded basically as we look on to prevent their escape and to

22     prevent their ability to look at military secrets on the front lines as

23     they are taken back to the rear.

24             Does this help us understand the relationship between the

25     prisoners and the security officer?

Page 16456

 1        A.   Yes, sir, it does.

 2        Q.   All right.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this document into evidence.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04183 receives number P2135,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

10        Q.   Mr. Butler, now I'd also like if you could discuss briefly a

11     section that you've spoken about before, that we refer generally as the

12     Milici patients, where some 10 to 15 or thereabouts Muslim men were

13     captured in the Nova Kasaba area and were treated and were placed in the

14     Milici hospital.  Can you basically tell us what the documents have --

15     again very briefly then we will go through some of the documents, to show

16     what you based your analysis on?

17        A.   Yes, sir.  One of the issues that -- and as I talked about I

18     believe last week that I looked at was case histories of individuals who

19     were known to be in the custody of the Army of the Republika Srpska and

20     subsequently are now listed on the ICRC missing list or were back in the

21     day.  This group of prisoners who were injured was documented as being

22     treated in Milici and at some point of time was transferred from Milici

23     to the hospital in Zvornik.  They were subsequently transferred from the

24     hospital in Zvornik to the medical centre at the Standard barracks of the

25     Zvornik Brigade, and from the barracks of the Zvornik Brigade they

Page 16457

 1     subsequently disappeared.

 2        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 65 ter 5128.  And this is a 24 July 1995

 3     document, and you see it's Republika Srpska Svetinakova [phoen] war

 4     hospital in Milici, Drina Corps command, to General Radislav Krstic

 5     personally.  And if we can -- it's from the war hospital director

 6     Dr. Radomir Davidovic, neurosurgeon.  And he talks about various issues

 7     associated with the events of early July and later.  And if we he could

 8     go to page 2, and looking at -- near the bottom of the page, it says, 18

 9     wounded enemy have undergone surgery and have been transferred to the

10     hospital in Zvornik on the orders of the Main Staff.  How does this fit

11     into what you've been talking about?

12        A.   It dove tails with our ability to track these individuals as they

13     were initially treated in Milici and of course we have copies of the

14     hospital records reflecting that, and the fact that on the orders of the

15     Main Staff, they were transferred from the Milici hospital to the Zvornik

16     hospital for follow-on treatment.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I would offer this document into evidence.

18             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05128 receives number P2136,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And now could we go to 65 ter 5130.

24        Q.   Mr. Butler, this is a short listing of Muslim names, and is it

25     your understanding that these are some of the men that were -- did

Page 16458

 1     undergo surgery and were treated at the Milici hospital and then were

 2     sent on to the Zvornik hospital?

 3        A.   Yes, sir.  This is a copy or a translation of the copy of the

 4     intake log of the Milici medical centre identifying the individual

 5     patients and year of birth and their residence, as well as the reason for

 6     their admittance.

 7        Q.   All right.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This document is under seal.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  I would offer that into evidence.

10             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05130 receives number P2137,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence, under seal.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we go to 65 ter 5132.  This should also

16     be under seal.

17        Q.   And, Mr. Butler, as we'll soon be able to see that this is a

18     stack of patient records indicating the condition of the various patients

19     and how serious some of them were injured.  Are these the patients in

20     question, to your understanding, and their records from Milici?

21        A.   Yes, sir, they are.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer these records into evidence.

23             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05132 receives number P2138,

Page 16459

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence, under seal as well.  Yes,

 3     under seal.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to P2130.

 5        Q.   This is a document we have just seen but I want to ask you

 6     something specifically about it.  It is an interim combat report from

 7     Vinko Pandurevic on 22 July.  And we see here that to remind us, this is

 8     where Vinko Pandurevic is asking the command for instructions on what to

 9     do with prisoners, where to put them and whom they should hand them over

10     to, and we'll recall your answer on that.  Let's go to an intercept on --

11     for the next day, 23 July.  It's 65 ter 21164C, of 23 July.  Mr. Butler,

12     as you look at this intercept between Pandurevic and an unknown person,

13     do you recall that this is a 23 July intercept?

14        A.   Yes, sir, I do.

15        Q.   All right.  And we can see that Pandurevic states here that, We

16     are catching Turks still, I have prisoners, I have the wounded, so I

17     don't know what to do with them, where to send them.  This reference to

18     wounded, at this time do you know, does he have the Milici wounded?

19        A.   Yes, sir.  At this time they are in the medical clinic of the

20     Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

21        Q.   And while we won't go through them, have you seen information

22     regarding the transfer of those people from Zvornik down to the Standard

23     barracks?

24        A.   Yes, sir.

25        Q.   All right.  And then Vinko says, Yes, yes, so who should

Page 16460

 1     I transport these to, does anyone know?  And Vinko says, So what about

 2     Matkovic?  Do you have an opinion what Matkovic may be?

 3        A.   I don't know that individual as a name.  It could be referring to

 4     Batkovic which is the larger detention centre but it's unclear.

 5        Q.   Then he says, Because the memo has arrived that the wounded be

 6     sent to the hospital in Zvornik but there is a problem with this so

 7     I would ask that some solution be found for it today.  And what do you

 8     believe that's a reference to?

 9        A.   I am aware, as of course -- of the investigation, that there was

10     a great reluctance by the people of Zvornik to have these Muslims in the

11     hospital there.  They were initially sent to the hospital in Zvornik from

12     Milici and the reason why they were then sent to Standard barracks was

13     because the local population felt very uncomfortable about having them

14     there.  So an order to send them back to the hospital in Zvornik would

15     again re-raise that same issue of the population not wanting them there.

16        Q.   All right.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer that document into evidence.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Same standard objection to the intercepts,

19     Your Honour.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 21164C receives number P2139,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  It's under that number that the intercept is

25     admitted into evidence - please proceed - under seal.

Page 16461

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  If we could now go to another

 2     intercept, should be under seal, 65 ter number 21162A.

 3        Q.   This from your investigation would also have been identified as

 4     23 July, and this one is now at 805, five minutes after the last one.

 5     And we'll see here that it's one of those brief little summaries that

 6     says the participant in the previous conversation called and asked for

 7     Vinko again but Ljubo answered and question mark told Ljubo to pass on to

 8     Vinko, What Vinko and I were just talking about will arrive at your place

 9     by 1700 hours, the boss, Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic, will arrive and say

10     what needs to be done regarding the work we talked about.

11             How does this fit into these wounded?

12        A.   I believe this intercept is related to that conversation.

13        Q.   How so?

14        A.   Well, in this particular context, I mean the issue that they were

15     referring to, the being the wounded Muslims and the fact Colonel Popovic

16     is a security officer.  In the context of what happens to these

17     individuals afterwards, it is fairly clear why Popovic is going up there.

18        Q.   Why do you think?

19        A.   Again, the individuals are missing.  Colonel Popovic was

20     historically associated with issues relating to the execution and burial

21     of prisoners.

22        Q.   What reason, if any, would the VRS have into executing several

23     seriously injured people that were taken from the area of Nova Kasaba?

24        A.   Matter of speculation.  I don't know whether the VRS was

25     concerned that they saw something or knew something.  I mean, there

Page 16462

 1     are -- there are no technically lawful rationales that can be provided

 2     so, I mean, you could speculate for quite a long time as to why they

 3     thought these people would need to be liquidated.

 4        Q.   Let's not speculate.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to P1501.  I'm sorry, thank you.  I

 6     would like that into evidence, please.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Same objection, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 21162A receives number P2140,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence - the objection is

12     overruled - under seal.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And perhaps to save a bit of time I'll just refer

14     you, Mr. Butler, and the Trial Chamber, that I was -- that last

15     references to the duty officer notebook for 23 July with a notation at

16     0830 hours, Lieutenant-Colonel Cerovic relayed a message for the

17     commander that Lieutenant Colonel Popovic will arrive by 1700 hours.

18        Q.   Is that notation in the duty officer notebook related to the

19     intercept you just saw?

20        A.   Yes, sir, I believe it confirms that intercept.

21        Q.   All right.  And there is a document that's already into evidence,

22     D341, it is the vehicle log for Vujadin Popovic that shows a trip on his

23     vehicle on the 23rd of July from Vlasenica to Zvornik to Vlasenica.  Is

24     that consistent with Popovic going to Zvornik, as this is noted here?

25        A.   Yes, sir, it is.

Page 16463

 1        Q.   All right.  Now, let's go to another topic.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you do so, Mr. McCloskey, could I invite you

 3     to reorganise P2137, which is the hospital log.  It starts with an

 4     undated page having entries 11, 12, 13, 14, and then the second page is

 5     1 to 10.  I think the logical order would be e-court pages 2 plus 3 first

 6     and then after that, 1 and 4.  Could you reorganise it so that it makes

 7     sense?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, please.  I hopefully speculate that that's

 9     the order we picked it up from the hospital in but I may be wrong on

10     that.  The hospital -- it may be us.  So we'll fix that.

11        Q.   All right.  And Mr. Butler, you've already spoken briefly on some

12     documents that show General Tolimir was concerning himself with the large

13     number of prisoners first at Nova Kasaba on the 13th, and then suggesting

14     some could be moved to Rogatica.  Have you seen documents in your study

15     that indicate General Tolimir was involved with the exchange of large

16     numbers of prisoners from early on in the war?

17        A.   Yes, sir.  General Tolimir specifically, and the VRS security

18     organs in general, were interested in the issue, not only of prisoners

19     and their security but also the fact that prisoners that they had

20     captured could be used in order to trade against the other side to return

21     Bosnian Serb soldiers who had been captured or were detained by the

22     Muslim or Croatian side so there was always this keen interest during the

23     course of the conflict to capture enemy soldiers so they could get enough

24     soldiers that they could effectively trade back and get their own

25     captured people back, returned to them.

Page 16464

 1        Q.   All right.  Let's quickly go through some of these, 65 ter 23647,

 2     and I think they are largely self-explanatory so I would just like for

 3     you to either confirm or deny that these fit your analysis on

 4     General Tolimir's interest in prisoners and exchange.  So, first,

 5     65 ter 23647.  We see this is a 25 October 1993 document, the second page

 6     is Zdravko Tolimir and we see the initials LJB.  Who do you think the

 7     initials were?  And I believe we've heard evidence that those would be

 8     the initials of the person that drafted the report.

 9        A.   Yes, sir, those initials, to my knowledge, correspond to

10     Colonel Ljubisa Beara.

11        Q.   All right.  And does this document have to do with the exchange

12     of prisoners?

13        A.   Yes, sir, it does.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I would offer this document into evidence.

15             MR. IVETIC:  I would -- no objection.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 23647 receives number P2141,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P2141 is admitted into evidence.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we now have 65 ter 23811.

21        Q.   And as we'll see, as this comes up, Mr. Butler, this is another

22     document from the Main Staff in the name of Zdravko Tolimir, this time

23     drafted by ZT, Zdravko Tolimir, to the intelligence department of the

24     Drina Corps entitled:  "Exchange of prisoners."  Does this also -- is

25     this also a document that you looked at in determining the interest and

Page 16465

 1     job of General Tolimir to be involved with prisoners and prisoner

 2     exchanges?

 3        A.   Yes, sir, it is.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer that document into evidence.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 23811 receives number P2142,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P2142 is admitted.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And 65 ter 23863.

11        Q.   We'll see again a document from General Tolimir dated

12     20 January 1995 now to the intelligence and security section of the

13     Drina Corps, and East Bosnia Corps, entitled:  "Prisoner exchange."  Is

14     this another such document that you looked at to determine

15     General Tolimir's job in prisoner exchanges?

16        A.   Yes, sir.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer that document into evidence.

18             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 23863 receives number P2143,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we have 65 ter 4173.

24        Q.   This is the last such document, Mr. Butler.  And this is another

25     document from General Tolimir now, 29 July, after some of our Srebrenica

Page 16466

 1     events and is referring to the disarmament of the 1st Zepa Brigade.  If

 2     we could go to page 2 in the English, still B/C/S page 1, and could you

 3     blow up that B/C/S so it could be read, on the third big -- third

 4     paragraph down we see that there is a reference to continued combat

 5     operation in order to surround and destroy the 1st Zepa Brigade until the

 6     Muslims make the exchange and carry out the agreement from 24 July

 7     related to their disarmament and surrender, take all necessary measures

 8     to prevent them from leaving the encirclement.

 9             This is the sentence I want to ask you about, it says:  Do not

10     register persons you capture before cessation of fire and do not report

11     them to international organisations.  We are going to keep them for

12     exchange in case the Muslims do not carry out the agreement or they

13     manage to break through from the encirclement.  This order not to

14     register people or make lists of them, is that appropriate military

15     conduct in your view?

16        A.   No, sir.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I would offer this document into

18     evidence.

19             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04173 receives number P2144,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:

25        Q.   Mr. Butler, you have spoken of the restriction of convoys both to

Page 16467

 1     UNPROFOR and to the enclave population itself and I would like to go over

 2     just a couple of the examples of the material that you may have looked at

 3     in going -- coming to those conclusions.  Could we go to 65 ter 24841.

 4     And, Mr. Butler, without going through the details of this document we

 5     can see that -- what this is.  Can you tell us briefly?

 6        A.   Yes, sir.  This is the response of the Main Staff of the

 7     Republika Srpska to UNPROFOR Sarajevo letting them know which convoys

 8     from their larger request that they did not authorise for passage.

 9        Q.   And we see for Srebrenica number 7 and number 12, and did you

10     incorporate the review of this document for your analysis regarding the

11     convoy restrictions?

12        A.   Yes, sir.  While it was not part of my report per se, with these

13     documents, I have testified about these extensively in previous trials.

14        Q.   This material came in after your time here?

15        A.   Yes, sir.

16        Q.   All right.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'd offer that document into evidence.

18             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 24841 receives number

21     P2145, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  P2145 is admitted into evidence.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we now go to 65 ter 24848.

24        Q.   We see this is the heading of the Main Staff, it's to the

25     UNPROFOR Command Sarajevo.  Number 1, we have not approved the movement

Page 16468

 1     of a convoy number from Srebrenica into Banja Koviljaca because the

 2     discrepancy between the number of people entering and exiting Srebrenica.

 3     Is this something, another document you reviewed in your analysis?

 4        A.   Yes, sir.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer that document into evidence.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 24848 receives number P2146,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P2146 is admitted.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And 65 ter 5535, please.

12        Q.   And, Mr. Butler, we see this is a bit different.  It's still from

13     the Main Staff in the name of Lieutenant-General Milovanovic, and this is

14     to the commands of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and Drina Corps, and let

15     me read that first sentence which is a bit blotted out by the draft

16     translation.  It's, Please be informed we have not approved movement of

17     the following UNPROFOR convoys and teams.

18             Can you confirm, Mr. Butler, that that's what it says underneath

19     there, from your analysis?

20        A.   Yes, sir, that is correct.

21        Q.   And is this another, let's -- we can see number 4, well, actually

22     let's go to the next page in the English, numbered page 2 in the English.

23     We see under number 9, a reference to Srebrenica, 8 April, comprising

24     seven vehicles and 18 persons which were supposed to transport diesel

25     fuel.  We told them they had 79 tonnes of fuel with Oric.  So they were

Page 16469

 1     refusing this request.  What do you make, if anything, of this reference

 2     about Oric?

 3        A.   Well, sir, one of the allegations that the VRS did level against

 4     the UNPROFOR was that they were not only carrying humanitarian goods or

 5     things of that nature, but that the ABiH was using the UNPROFOR as a way

 6     to smuggle in material, weapons and fuel, in for the ABiH military

 7     purposes.  Again, in this particular context, their concern that fuel

 8     that is supposed to be going to UNPROFOR somehow gets diverted to

 9     Naser Oric and is used for military purposes.

10        Q.   All right.  Now, we have mostly seen references to UNPROFOR

11     convoys.  Were there also convoys that the humanitarian -- for the

12     humanitarian organisations, UNHCR and the ICRC and others?

13        A.   Yes, sir, there were.

14        Q.   And did the VRS have any control over those convoys?

15        A.   Yes, sir, they did.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could I tender that last document into

17     evidence?

18             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05535 receives number P2147,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   Mr. Butler, did you and I go over this binder of basic convoy

25     materials prior to your testifying?

Page 16470

 1        A.   Yes, sir.  The particular binder that you're holding is a

 2     grouping of a number of documents which relate to various requests by

 3     UNPROFOR and various international organisations to request to move goods

 4     to people throughout Eastern Bosnia as well as the replies from the VRS

 5     and other organs that had control over whether they could access or not.

 6        Q.   And did each of those documents fit into your conclusion

 7     regarding the convoy restrictions overseen and controlled by the VRS?

 8        A.   Yes, sir, they did.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I am done.  I would like to offer

10     the 13 remaining documents in bulk as referred to by Mr. Butler.  I can

11     get a list.  I've mentioned this to the Defence before.  I'm not sure of

12     their feelings on the issue.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, it was mentioned yesterday afternoon.

14     I believe that if documents are going to be tendered through a witness,

15     the witness has to provide testimony as to the documents and has to

16     identify the documents.  Referring to a "binder" I don't think is an

17     appropriate means of the witness identifying which particular documents

18     he has referred to, so I would object to that type of a mass addition of

19     documents by pointing to a "binder" quote unquote.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, Mr. Ivetic, you know that sometimes

21     documents which are related to the testimony of a witness, although are

22     not specifically dealt with and perhaps not specified by -- with the

23     witness, that they are admitted from the bar table where usually we would

24     wait until later, but if there is a direct relation to the testimony of

25     the witness.  Would you oppose a -- the tendering of those documents from

Page 16471

 1     the bar table in the context of the testimony of this witness?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, we would.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Any reason for that, in view of the practice I set

 4     out a second ago?

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, the jurisprudence in relation to

 6     bar table submissions requires that the documents be identified, their

 7     provenance be identified, and submissions be made in a bar table motion,

 8     the Defence be given adequate time to respond.  That has not been

 9     followed.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President, I believe the procedure I've

12     just laid out is, while the bar table I think a fine procedure that I'm

13     sure both sides will use, this actually is a better procedure.

14     Mr. Butler has referred to the 13 documents as having reviewed them and

15     how they fit into it.  You can see that these documents are very

16     self-explanatory and simple.  It would be, in my view, a waste of the

17     Court's time to go through each one individually and have Mr. Butler tell

18     us what time our watch says.  It's right there.  So it is important for

19     the overall context to see this as a whole and for the Chamber to review

20     when you're making this important decision.  Well, I think this is an

21     excellent way for this material to come before the Trial Chamber without

22     the problems of filings and arguing over something in written form.  It

23     also gives the Defence a chance to cross-examine specific documents that

24     are specifically laid out as opposed to responding in paper in a bar

25     table.  So I think this is a better way to go.

Page 16472

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, the Chamber would allow for the

 3     following procedure:  You make a full list of the documents you had in

 4     your mind instead of referring to a binder where of course the Chamber

 5     has got no idea of what is found in that binder, so you make a list, you

 6     give that to -- it will be provided to the witness, not directly but

 7     through Chamber, and after the witness has had a look at that list, we'll

 8     ask him whether or not he has considered those documents in -- whether he

 9     reviewed those documents in being at the basis of his testimony and his

10     reporting.  That is the way in which the Chamber suggests you proceed

11     rather than to refer a binder with unknown content, as far as the Chamber

12     is concerned.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  This is the witness's list,

14     and Ms. Stewart has identified in yellow the documents and the Defence

15     has -- I sent them a separate list of only convoy documents and we've now

16     just used three that are already now in evidence because I went over

17     them.  So I merely mention the binder so Mr. Butler would know that he's

18     talking about something specifically.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is -- you have not prepared specifically

21     you've highlighted in yellow on a list.  Could that first be shown to

22     Mr. Ivetic with the assistance of the usher?  And Mr. Ivetic, if there is

23     no further comment on it --

24             MR. IVETIC:  There should be no further comment, Your Honour.

25     I trust that this is comports the list that was sent to us at 330 last

Page 16473

 1     night.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, minus the three which are admitted, I do

 3     understand.  Could the list be given to the witness.

 4             Witness, could we invite you to look at the yellow highlighted

 5     items on this list and then to tell us, after the break, whether you have

 6     consulted and reviewed these documents, and whether they are in line with

 7     or consistent with your findings as reported?

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir, I will.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we take a break, Mr. McCloskey, unless there is

10     anything else to be dealt with.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just simply, Mr. Butler's reports which I have

12     lists of his reports and their annexes, it's my understanding that

13     Mr. Ivetic would not be objecting to his three command reports but would

14     be objecting to the narrative reports and their annexes.  And as far as

15     I'm concerned we can deal with that after the cross-examination.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct and I would agree with that

18     procedure.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  It's already on the record that for some reports

20     there are no objections and for others there will be and we'll decide

21     admission or non-admission after the cross-examination of the witness.

22             Madam Registrar, anything to be added?  No?  Then could the

23     witness be escorted out of the courtroom.  We would like to see you back

24     in 20 minutes from now, Mr. Butler.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 16474

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And needless to say, I have nothing else to say,

 2     Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I did understand that this concluded your --

 4     and I must say even with the procedural matters attached, you stayed

 5     within your 3600 seconds.

 6             We take a break and we resume at five minutes to 11.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

 8                           [The accused withdrew]

 9                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [No interpretation]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I do not receive ...

13             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] Already for several days, the past

14     week, we have noticed that General Mladic is not able to follow, and now

15     talking to him, we have found out that in the past few days of the last

16     week and the week before, he has been unable to socialise with others in

17     the Detention Unit.  He's now lying down.  He has no strength for

18     anything.  He can't drink or eat, and he maintains that he's so exhausted

19     that he cannot function anymore.  He explained also to the nurse today

20     that, again, the left side of his body is numb and he has the feeling

21     that his left arm and left leg are going to explode.  And he feels

22     enormous pressure in his hamstrings.  We believe that this trial cannot

23     continue in this way anymore.  We have said before we needed one day off

24     and now we believe it's two.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm going to interrupt you there.  We are

Page 16475

 1     dealing at this moment with the present situation.  I do understand that

 2     Mr. Mladic has reported that he doesn't feel well.  You have explained

 3     what these symptoms are he's experiencing at this moment.  We also do

 4     understand that the nurse said that he should be brought back to the UNDU

 5     and the Chamber, of course, will ask for a full medical report about the

 6     findings of the doctors.

 7             The issue of the medical reports and whether that justifies to

 8     postpone or to sit four days a week are at this moment before the Appeals

 9     Chamber.  Any additional motions in this respect, accompanied by

10     supporting medical reports, will be taken very seriously by the Chamber.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Until now, they have never been

12     seriously considered by the Chamber.  The Chamber acted counter to the

13     instructions of the doctors.  I'm telling you General Mladic, contrary to

14     my own instructions, came to attend this trial.  I shall not allow this

15     anymore.  Instead, when he's unable to follow the trial, I will not allow

16     him to be present anymore.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know whether that is within your competence

18     but not to be discussed at this very moment.  I leave it to what I just

19     said.  At this moment, I do understand that Mr. Mladic has not waived his

20     right to be present at trial, which means that we will adjourn and wait

21     for the medical reports and see how we -- and when we will continue.

22     I would expect that the Chamber would receive, Madam Registrar, a first

23     medical report this afternoon so that we are -- so that we know where we

24     are for tomorrow.  I'd like to ask the witness to return so as to inform

25     him about the present situation.  If there is anything you would like

Page 16476

 1     add, Mr. Lukic, please do so, but please keep in mind that the Chamber

 2     wants to follow a strict procedural order.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have nothing to add at this

 4     moment.  We shall try to visit our client this afternoon, if we are able

 5     to organise it.  We are unable to organise visits for the same day but

 6     I hope we shall meet with some understanding on the part of the

 7     Detention Unit today to see the situation of our client and to see

 8     whether we are going to be able to continue tomorrow.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Butler, we will not continue at this moment.

11     Mr. Mladic has reported to be unwell.  The -- a member of the medical

12     staff has decided that it would be better for him to return to the

13     United Nations Detention Unit, and that's what happened.  That means that

14     we are a bit of uncertain about when we will be able to continue but any

15     news will reach you through the Victims and Witness Section.

16             Could I just inquire with you whether you have any commitments in

17     the very near future, that is in the coming -- the last days of this week

18     and perhaps the first days of next week which would be -- which would

19     prevent you from continuing your testimony with some delay?

20             THE WITNESS:  No, sir.  I guess the one advantage of being

21     employed with a law enforcement organisation is they more than other

22     employers understand the necessities of court.  I'm obviously available

23     at the disposal of the Court, sir.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That is appreciated.

25             Is there any other matter at this moment to be raised?  If not --

Page 16477

 1             THE WITNESS:  Sir, I do have the one document that you did ask me

 2     to look at.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but we'll continue with that once the accused

 4     is back because we can't continue with the proceedings under the present

 5     circumstances, but perhaps you for your own memory you write down or you

 6     read it again or should it --

 7             THE WITNESS:  Should I hold on to this document or should

 8     I return it to someone?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I think if you could keep it at this moment unless

10     there is any problem.  I see the parties both agree.  If you keep it with

11     you and whenever you restart look at it again and see whether what you

12     have read during this break, whether that is still the same.

13             We adjourn sine die.  One second, please.

14             Before we adjourn, Mr. Butler, I again have to instruct you not

15     to speak or communicate in whatever way even when it's during a bit of a

16     longer period of time with anyone about your testimony, whether already

17     given or still to be given.

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  I understand.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn sine die.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

22                           at 11.12 a.m. sine die