Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17625

 1                           Monday, 30 September 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Before the Prosecution is invited and before we go into closed

12     session to hear the testimony of Witness RM070, it is on special request

13     that you first read the summary, Ms. Marcus.  You have an opportunity to

14     do so.

15             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Good morning.

16             RM070 is a woman in her late 40s from Foca municipality.  She

17     will testify that in the first week of July of 1992, uniformed and

18     heavily armed Serb soldiers detained more than 30 Muslim civilians in the

19     woods, including women, children, and elderly, in a village in Foca

20     municipality.  She will testify that the Serb soldiers swore at the

21     civilians using ethnic slurs, and that shortly thereafter, the Serb

22     soldiers shot and killed first three, and later seven more, of these

23     Muslim civilians.  The accused has been charged with these killings in

24     indictment Schedule A2.1.

25             RM070 will testify that the Serb soldiers then lined up the

Page 17626

 1     detainees, separated the women from the men, and that the women and at

 2     least one man were taken to Buk Bijela, where they were interrogated and

 3     subjected to both sexual and non-sexual torture.  The accused has been

 4     charged with crimes committed in the detention centre at Buk Bijela in

 5     indictment Schedule C6.3.

 6             RM070 will then testify that numerous women and girls who were

 7     among the detainees were then taken to the Foca high school,

 8     Srednja Skola, where they were detained by Serb soldiers yet again.  The

 9     witness will describe the daily and relentless pattern of rape and other

10     forms of sexual and non-sexual torture to which the women and girls were

11     subjected by Serb soldiers during their detention in the high school.

12     The accused has been charged with crimes committed in the Foca high

13     school in indictment Schedule C6.5.

14             RM070 will testify that the women and girls were then transferred

15     to the Partizan sports hall where they were enslaved and subjected to a

16     daily pattern of humiliation, verbal assaults and threats, and violent

17     acts of sexual violence.  The accused has been charged with crimes

18     committed in the Partizan detention centre in indictment Schedule C6.4.

19             RM070 will finally testify that the Serb soldiers transferred the

20     Muslim women and girls from Partizan to a house near Miljevina known as

21     Karaman's house.  Here, the Serb soldiers continued to subject the

22     detainees to enslavement, verbal abuse and threats, rape, including

23     frequent gang-rapes and sexual slavery.  The accused has been charged

24     with crimes committed in Karaman's house in indictment Schedule C6.2.

25             That concludes the public summary, Your Honours.

Page 17627

 1             Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Marcus.  The witness will testify

 3     with protective measures being face distortion, voice distortion, and

 4     pseudonym.  Therefore in order to hear the testimony of the witness, we

 5     first have to move into closed session.

 6                           [Closed session]

 7   (redacted)

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

20             Witness RM070, before you give evidence, the Rules require that

21     you make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you by the

22     usher.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25                           WITNESS:  RM070

Page 17628

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Witness RM070.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness RM070, you'll first be examined by

 5     Ms. Marcus.  I take it that you know her already.  You find Ms. Marcus to

 6     your right.

 7             Ms. Marcus, you may proceed.

 8             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9                           Examination by Ms. Marcus:

10        Q.   Good morning.

11             MS. MARCUS:  Could the Court Officer please call up

12     65 ter 30311 - this is the witness's pseudonym sheet - but not broadcast

13     it.

14        Q.   RM070, when the document appears on the screen in front of you,

15     I'd like you to -- I'm sorry, I'm just waiting for the document.

16             Yes.  Could you please confirm without saying your name that that

17     is your name?

18        A.   I don't have that anywhere.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the usher assist.

20             MS. MARCUS:

21        Q.   Is that your name which appears on the page in front of you?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And can you confirm that that is your date of birth?

24        A.   Yes, it is.

25             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, I'd like to tender 65 ter 30311 into

Page 17629

 1     evidence under seal, please.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30311 receives number P2421,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted under seal.

 6             MS. MARCUS:

 7        Q.   RM070, do you recall giving a statement to the ICTY on the 15th

 8     to the 18th of November of 1995?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.  I did.

10             MS. MARCUS:  I would ask that 65 ter 30309 be placed on the

11     monitor but not broadcast.

12        Q.   Is this the statement that you see in front of you that you gave

13     to the ICTY?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MS. MARCUS:  Could we turn to the bottom of this page, please.

16        Q.   RM070, would you please look at the signature on the bottom of

17     this page.  Do you recognise this as your signature?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   Did you have an opportunity before testifying today to review a

20     translation of this statement in your own language?

21        A.   Yes, I did.

22        Q.   If you were asked the same questions today as you were asked when

23     you provided this statement, would you provide the same answers, in

24     substance?

25        A.   Well, yes, I think so.  It was a long time ago.  However, I

Page 17630

 1     believe that my answers would still be the same.

 2        Q.   Now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the

 3     accuracy and truthfulness of this statement?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5             MS. MARCUS:  I tender this document, 30309, into evidence, under

 6     seal, please.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  It is admitted under seal.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30309 receives number P2422,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.  When I said admitted, the

11     document was admitted, although I had not yet heard the number.

12     Apologies for that.

13             MS. MARCUS:

14        Q.   RM070, you testified previously in a case before --

15                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

16             MS. MARCUS:  One second.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it is admitted under seal.  When I said

18     admitted, of course, I meant admitted under seal.  But it is already the

19     first time I said under seal.  But let's proceed.

20             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   RM070, you have testified previously in a case before this

22     Tribunal; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, it is.

24        Q.   And have you had the opportunity to review a segment of that

25     prior testimony in preparation for your testimony today?

Page 17631

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   If you were asked the same questions you were asked when you

 3     provided that testimony, would you provide the same answers, in

 4     substance?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the

 7     accuracy and truthfulness of that testimony?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I would like to tender the selection

10     of pages from the witness's prior testimony into evidence, please.  That

11     is 30310, under seal, please.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, you asked about one segment, isn't it?

13             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.  This was the segment that was in

14     the 92 ter application.  I'm trying to avoid giving page numbers or

15     identifying the case --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I see that.  But the sequence is -- it seems to

17     be two segments rather than one.

18             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, I'm sorry.  It's not a contiguous -- it's not

19     one contiguous segment.  I apologise.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if that is clear to the witness and the witness

21     has listened to it.

22             You had a opportunity to listen to two portions of your previous

23     testimony?  Did you have a opportunity to listen to that previous

24     testimony, audio, listening, or did you read it or ...

25             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, just perhaps the witness might be

Page 17632

 1     confused because since it was just a short segment we had a language

 2     assistant translate it to her.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Which is, for us, a bit uncommon.

 4             So I do understand that you sat together with someone who read it

 5     in your language and then you confirmed that this was your truthful

 6     testimony at the time; is that right --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.  Yes, yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Madam Registrar, the number to be assigned to

 9     the excerpt of the transcript would be ...

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30310 receives number P2423,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence, under seal.

13             MS. MARCUS:  Could I please have private session.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

15             Witness, we now move into private session which means that not

16     only no one will see you, not only -- no one will hear your own voice but

17     even whatever you say is not to be made public.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

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22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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Page 17633











11  Pages 17633-17640 redacted.  Private session.















Page 17641

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22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

25             MS. MARCUS:

Page 17642

1        Q.   RM070, you describe Buk Bijela in your statement in paragraph 27

 2     as a construction site for a proposed hydro-electric power plant.  Can

 3     you tell us, if you know, what was this facility to the armed forces who

 4     captured you at the time of your detention?  What purpose did Buk Bijela

 5     have to the Serb soldiers at the time you were detained there?

 6        A.   They used it to torture and rape Muslim women whom they had

 7     captured.

 8        Q.   You say in paragraph 38 that on your way from Buk Bijela to the

 9     Foca high school in the bus, the bus stopped in front of the SUP.

10             Were there police or soldiers at the SUP?

11        A.   There were both police officers and soldiers.

12        Q.   I'm now going to ask you a few clarifications regarding the

13     detention in Foca high school.

14             You say in paragraph 41 that two policemen guarded the entrance

15     to the school day and night.  Did you come to understand whether there

16     was a superior/subordinate relationship between the police guards and the

17     Serb soldiers who came and took out women and girls each night for sexual

18     violence?

19        A.   I didn't see that.  But when the soldiers came to the secondary

20     school to take out women, nobody dared oppose them.

21             Once, police officer Dragan Zelenovic opposed the soldiers, but

22     he -- the soldier punched him with his fist so hard that nobody else

23     dared to oppose them.

24        Q.   When the Serb soldiers took you and other women and girls out of

25     the Foca high school in the evening to the Brena apartments, did they try

Page 17643

 1     to avoid anyone seeing them?  Did they do this in a secretive manner?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   You describe in paragraphs 59 to 62 that while you were detained

 4     in the Foca high school, some TV cameras came to film you and the other

 5     detainees.  Did you come to know why they were filming you?  Why did they

 6     come to that detention centre to film you?

 7        A.   Well, you know, it was like this:  They put me up at the

 8     secondary school, and we got three meals a day, and we had those sponges

 9     on which we slept.  And then a man came and told us that television would

10     come and film to show how they were protecting us and how they had saved

11     us.  And then I asked myself, From whom have they saved me?  How I was

12     attacked so that I needed saving?

13             And when Belgrade TV arrived and TV S from Pale I was sitting in

14     a corner of the room.  I never once took a look to see who had entered

15     and came to record.  How could I say that they had saved me and protected

16     me when I was being raped by a dozen or two dozen of them every night?

17     They were lying shamelessly.  They killed my mother and my brother.  They

18     killed everything in me.  And now I was supposed to say that Mitar Sipcic

19     saved me.  I thought he was a human being.  That's what I thought.  I had

20     known him from before because he worked at the infirmary at Brod as

21     medical staff.  So I never saw who had come and who recorded.  But I know

22     what they wanted.  Their objective was propaganda to show how they were

23     humane, that they had saved us and that they were protecting us.  From

24     whom?

25        Q.   Would you like to take a little break?

Page 17644

 1        A.   It's all right.  We can go on.

 2        Q.   I'm going to ask you a few questions now about Partizan.  Can you

 3     tell the Court how far Partizan is from the centre of Foca town.

 4        A.   It's not far.  If we take the square as the centre of Foca, then

 5     it's no further than 200 metres.

 6             MS. MARCUS:  Could the Court Officer please call up 65 ter 11159C

 7     which is a photograph from Foca.

 8             For the Court Usher's information, I will be asking her to make a

 9     few marks on here, so maybe they could assist her.

10        Q.   RM070, there are already some numbers on this photograph.  Can

11     you identify what each of these numbers represent, please.  Let's start

12     with number 1.

13        A.   Number 1 is -- oh, sorry, I must have done something wrong ...

14        Q.   You won't need to mark numbers 1, 2, 3, or 4.  You may need to

15     mark something after that.

16        A.   Okay.  Number 1 is the Partizan gym; number 2 is the SUP; 3, I

17     can't really tell now.  This may be the municipality building.  Across

18     the road from the SUP, there were also women locked up and I heard

19     screams from there every night.  A number of women were locked up there

20     and raped.  And number 4 is the Zelengora hotel.  Next to that hotel

21     there is another house where I was also detained by Serbian soldiers.

22     It's across the road from the textile factory.

23        Q.   So at the location you said:

24             "Next to that hotel there is another house where I was also

25     detained by Serbian soldiers."

Page 17645

 1             Could you mark that with the number 5, please.

 2        A.   I can mark it, but I'm not certain that it will be the very

 3     house.  I think that it's this house here, where the arrow is.

 4        Q.   Please mark it with a 5.  Right on the screen.  You can write on

 5     the screen.

 6        A.   Number 5 is here.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The marking doesn't work at the moment.

 8             MS. MARCUS:

 9        Q.   Was there any other location on this photograph that you wanted

10     to indicate for the Court?

11             If not, we can just continue.  It's no problem.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we can describe it for the transcript.

13             The witness pointed at a house which is found immediately below

14     4, but not large construction, but the one with the red roof immediately

15     right to that large construction.

16             Please proceed.

17             MS. MARCUS:  I tender this photo into evidence, please.  That's

18     65 ter 11159C.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             MS. MARCUS:  I don't think it needs to be under seal, sorry.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 11159C receives number P2426,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

24             Ms. Marcus, we're close to the moment where we usually take a

25     break.

Page 17646

 1             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.  I have perhaps about ten more

 2     minutes after the break.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll first take that break.

 4             RM070, we first go into closed session, then you can leave the

 5     courtroom.  We take a break of approximately 20 minutes, and after the

 6     break, you'll be further examined by Ms. Marcus for another ten minutes

 7     approximately, and then you'll be cross-examined by counsel for the

 8     Defence.

 9             We turn into closed session.

10                           [Closed session]

11   (redacted)

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24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

Page 17647

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 2             Ms. Marcus, you may proceed.

 3             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   RM070, you describe in your statement at paragraph 90 being

 5     detained at Karaman's house.  In your evidence, you mention a

 6     12-year-old girl named Almira Bektovic.  Was she also sexually assaulted?

 7        A.   Yes, she was.

 8        Q.   Was she the youngest?

 9        A.   Yes, she was.

10        Q.   Do you know what happened to her afterwards?

11        A.   No, I don't.  She's missing.

12        Q.   In paragraph 102, you say:

13             "That night Klamfa negotiated with Dragan Stankovic about the

14     sale of Almira.  I heard that Klamfa sold Almira to Stankovic for

15     200 Deutschemarks."

16             Is this Almira Bektovic you were referring to?

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   Can you briefly describe the circumstances of this so-called sale

19     of Almira ?

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

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Page 17648











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24             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

25                           [Private session]

Page 17650

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15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

18             MS. MARCUS:

19        Q.   RM070, I just have a few more questions for you.

20             In paragraph 98 of your statement, you say that you were "forced

21     to make the sign of the cross."

22             Can you tell us about this incident, please, if possible in

23     brief.

24        A.   That was in Miljevina after I had already spent three months in

25     that house.  That was on the 13th [as interpreted] of October, I believe,

Page 17651

 1     in 1992.  Janko Janjic, Dragan Zelenovic, Gojko Jankovic and somebody

 2     else came to the Karaman house where Pero Elez kept us.  Pero told me in

 3     the morning that four of us had to go to Foca.  Milorad Cicmil also came.

 4     I believe that he was a teacher in a school somewhere, as far as I could

 5     hear from others.  They lined us up.  There were eight of us girls.  They

 6     sat us done and then he asked our names.  Obviously we gave him Serbian

 7     names.  And then he asked us whether we had learned how to make the sign

 8     of the cross.  Since I was the first sitting down in that line, I didn't

 9     know the difference between the three fingers and the whole hand.  I

10     started making the sign of the cross with the whole hand.  And all of a

11     sudden he jumped up and he shouted at me, Do you want me to cut your hand

12     off?  You don't use your whole hand but only three fingers.  And I said,

13     I apologise, sir.  I did not know.  I did not attend the proper course,

14     so I don't know.

15             That's how they took the four of us and took us to Foca.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, may I ask you for one clarification.

17             You said it was on the certain day in October in 1992.  Can you

18     repeat the day.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 30th of October, I believe it

20     was.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that from the

23     2nd of August, 1992, to the 30th of October, 1992, we were kept in that

24     house.  All in all, three month, I believe.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that.

Page 17652

 1             Ms. Marcus.

 2             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   One more clarification on your answer there.

 4             Who was it who instructed you about crossing yourself?  Could you

 5     repeat the name, please.

 6        A.   What did I say?  Cicmil or Cicmal, Milorad.

 7        Q.   That's fine.  RM070, this may be a difficult question to ask but

 8     it's nearly my last one.

 9             Did you ever come to learn whether there was any reason that you

10     and the other women and girls were being so badly mistreated?  What was

11     the goal of this mistreatment, if any?

12        A.   My opinion was that they wanted to destroy, kill, destroy our

13     spirit as much as they could, because a raped woman -- there's no cure

14     for a woman who was raped.

15             I will not recover.  I cannot recover, ever.  I'm trying.  I'm

16     trying very hard.

17             My life was destroyed.  My family was destroyed.  The dearest to

18     me were killed.  All that I had in life, they took my happiness.  I was a

19     happy person.  You -- one could not describe the level of my happiness.

20     That's how I felt.

21             But not all the Serbs are the same.  Because if there were --

22     there hadn't been for some Serb, I wouldn't be sitting here today.

23     Because there are some good people among the Serbs, but they couldn't do

24     anything.  They didn't dare.

25        Q.   RM070, is there anything else that you would like the Chamber to

Page 17653

 1     know, other than what you've told them in your statement or in your

 2     testimony so far?

 3        A.   What -- what I have come here to say and what I have said so far,

 4     so many innocent victims.  There are so many.  And perhaps this is my way

 5     of finding comfort, finding solace.  So far I've always felt as if I owed

 6     something to somebody because I'm alive.  My brother is dead.  My mother

 7     is dead.  My uncle, my aunt, their children, they're all dead.  And I'm

 8     alive.  And so many people are dead.  I've always felt dead towards them

 9     because I'm alive.  I still feel that I owe them.  This is the feeling

10     that I have:  That I owe them because I'm here.  I have this feeling of

11     guilt.  I feel guilted.  And that's why I had to come here to tell you

12     the truth.  Because all of all of those innocent victims who were killed.

13     Because they were not guilty.  They were innocent.

14             My brother had just come back from the army in March, and four

15     months later he was killed.  He had returned from the Yugoslav army.  We

16     were proud of him.  We were proud of the Yugoslav army.  They brought

17     cannons and tanks to Foca.  The whole city was shaking with the sound of

18     cannons and tanks, and we didn't know what they were up to.  We didn't

19     know why they were all coming our way.  We didn't know what the purpose

20     was.

21             All that was predesigned.  All that had been agreed in advance.

22     It had been agreed in advance that Muslims had to be killed and

23     destroyed.

24             Our neighbours, Serbs, would be happy if we returned, if we lived

25     with them, because these people say that once we left, everything's gone.

Page 17654

 1     They don't have anything.  They're poor.  I -- I feel sorry for them when

 2     I see how they live and how retched they are.

 3        Q.   RM070, thank you so much for answering all my questions.

 4             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I have no more questions for the

 5     witness.  I just wanted to ask the Chamber for leave to make one bar

 6     table submission at the -- at the end, when the witness has been excused.

 7     Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And Mr. Stojanovic is aware of the bar table

 9     admission you intend --

10             MS. MARCUS:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, Witness RM070, you will now be

12     cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for

13     Mr. Mladic.

14             Mr. Stojanovic.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  We'll

16     try to make it as short as possible.  We will probably not use all the

17     time that we asked for, and in view of the answers we have provided -- I

18     supposed that you probably understand that.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, good morning.

21        A.   Good morning.

22        Q.   I will have just a few questions for you.  I don't want to remind

23     you unnecessarily of those awful events, and I need to tell you that I'm

24     sorry for everything that you had been through.  But let's try and see if

25     we can go through the document that we received earlier this morning.

Page 17655

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

 2     call up the document whose number I don't know but I believe that it has

 3     been marked for identification as a P document.  And I'm talking about

 4     the list that the Prosecutor showed earlier this morning, the names of

 5     the people that the witness mentioned in her testimony.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is P2424.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Under seal.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  The

 9     document is under seal.  It is P2424.

10        Q.   Let's just briefly go through the document, please, madam.

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 17656











11  Pages 17656-17666 redacted.  Private session.















Page 17667

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Closed session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17668











11  Page 17668 redacted.  Closed session.















Page 17669

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17670











11  Page 17670 redacted.  Private session.















Page 17671

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   We left it off at the moment when I asked you about the exchange.

15     Please tell the Trial Chamber, according to what you remember, why is it

16     that that exchange did not take place in July 1992?

17        A.   I don't know whether it was really planned in the first place.  I

18     have my doubts about that.  Again, it was propaganda.  Nothing more.

19     Both those soldiers in Cajnice as well as those in Foca were involved in

20     the same propaganda because they did bring us there.  They forced the

21     villagers who were there to bring us food.  They gave us cheese and

22     cream.  They forced us to eat a lot.  We spent a night in a small school

23     and then the next day they transferred us to a bigger school in Cajnice,

24     all that allegedly awaiting for that exchange to take place.

25             However, all that happened was that a TV crew came.  I don't know

Page 17672

 1     from which TV channel.  Again, they wanted to brag how kind and

 2     considerate they were, how helpful, and how they took care of us, and the

 3     TV crew recorded all that.  But, again, I'm telling, I never spoke to any

 4     one of them.

 5        Q.   In substance, did they tell you that the exchange did not go

 6     through because the opposing side in Gorazde did not accept the terms of

 7     exchange?

 8        A.   They said that they did not want us and that there would be no

 9     exchange for that reason.  Because our own people didn't want us.

10        Q.   And now I will finish with my last question:  One of the Serb

11     soldiers told you at one point in time that he would help you and that he

12     would take you away from Foca.  Please don't mention any names.  Just

13     confirm whether that is correct or not.

14        A.   Yes, it is correct.  And I am grateful to him until the day I

15     die.

16        Q.   Also, a neighbour of yours got involved in that journey, and he

17     was the one who actually transferred you towards Bileca and Gacko and

18     then on to Niksic; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And now into those two Serb soldiers you managed to get to what

21     was then known as Titograd and today is known under the name Podgorica;

22     right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Do you know whether after the war and after the implementation of

25     property laws the villagers of your village got back their property?

Page 17673

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Do you know that there are Bosniaks still residing in your

 3     village who survived all those events that happened in July 1992?

 4        A.   Only one man lives there.  But he was never there before.  He was

 5     not actually there during the war.  He worked in Trebinje, in the

 6     military kitchen, and then he went to Montenegro, and there he spent the

 7     entire war.  So he was not in the village during the war.

 8        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The microphone is not activated.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I do not know whether it's Freudian

11     that your microphone was not activated, but you announced the last

12     question.  We are a few questions further now.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I meant the

14     area, the last area, not last question.  I have just one other sentence

15     to add.

16        Q.   Please, can you tell me whether you still have contacts with the

17     Serbs who helped you at the time?

18        A.   Yes, with one.  Not with the other.

19        Q.   Thank you, madam, once again.  And on behalf of your -- of our

20     client, I would like to apologise to you if I had caused you pain with

21     any of my questions or if I have reminded you of those difficult and

22     tragic events.  And, once again, please accept my sympathy for everything

23     that you had to go through.  We apologise.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, any need for re-examination.

25             MS. MARCUS:  No, Your Honour.  I have no questions.  Just that I

Page 17674

 1     would like to tender into evidence P2424 marked for identification.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the chart.

 3             MS. MARCUS:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you've asked a few questions about

 5     the chart.  Does the objection stand?

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  I had the

 7     opportunity to ask the necessary questions.  We will continue to -- with

 8     our research into the names mentioned here.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I say something about those

10     names?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Not at this moment preferably.  If there is any --

12     they are there, and the Defence has the possibility to verify the

13     information you provided in the chart.

14             Then P2424 is admitted into evidence, under seal.

15             Witness RM070, the parties have no further questions for you.

16     The Chamber has no further questions for you.  If what you wanted to say

17     about these names is your concern about having been mentioned, you can

18     discuss that with the Victims and Witness Section after this hearing, and

19     if there's anything of relevance, then the Victims and Witness Section

20     will take the appropriate action.

21             The Chamber would like to thank you very much for coming to

22     The Hague, for having answered all the questions that were put to you by

23     the parties and by the Bench.  And the Chamber is fully aware what it

24     takes to go to re-visit all these events you told us about and that even

25     strengthens the thanks by this Tribunal that you have come forward and

Page 17675

 1     you have testified in this case.

 2             For you, in order to allow to you leave the courtroom with the

 3     protective measures, we first turn into closed session.

 4                           [Closed session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

18             Ms. Marcus, while the furniture is removed, the -- you had one

19     bar table document.

20             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.

21             I would like to tendered 65 ter 2374A from the bar table in

22     connection with the testimony of this witness.  The Defence told me

23     before court that they have no objection to this.  What I would like to

24     ask is that it be MFI'd for now.  This is a small segment of one of the

25     RS assembly sessions.  And now, as Your Honours know, the Defence and the

Page 17676

 1     Prosecution are in the process of trying to agree upon which segments we

 2     would propose be admitted and Your Honours ultimately have to decide, so

 3     I would say that if this -- if more of this session comes in, it should

 4     all be under the same exhibit number.

 5             So I request a temporary exhibit number be -- be assigned to it.

 6     That's 2374A.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's pending the possibility of joining with

 8     other parts of the same session.

 9             Madam Registrar, 65 ter 2374A receives number?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Number P2427, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

12             Is the Prosecution ready to continue -- oh, no.  It's not the

13     Prosecution.  It's -- Mr. Hogan was being cross-examined.

14             Therefore, is the Defence ready to continue its cross-examination

15     of Mr. Hogan?

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we are, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then Mr. Hogan may be escorted into the courtroom.

18             If you make a little bit more time, Mr. Usher, than usual,

19     meanwhile, I read a decision.  I'll deliver the following decision but we

20     have to do it in private session, I see.

21             So, therefore, could we briefly move into private session.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17677











11  Page 17677 redacted.  Private session.















Page 17678

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23             The witness may be escorted into the courtroom.

24             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 17679

 1             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I was just going to say that on Friday at

 2     transcript page 17611 Your Honour posed a question regarding P2380 which

 3     was the map with mount Trebevic on it about whether the elevations were

 4     included in those calculations.  The witness was unable to answer but I

 5     can provide information to the Chamber, if the Chamber wishes, from

 6     the -- that I received from the mapping unit that could answer that

 7     question.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps we first wait until we have finished.

10             Just to complete the record, the Chamber has just been in

11     private session to deliver its decision granting the Prosecution's

12     25th of January, 2013, motion to add three documents to its exhibit list.

13             Mr. Hogan, welcome back in court.

14             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  May I remind you that you're still bound by the

16     solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.

17                           WITNESS:  BARRY HOGAN [Resumed]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And Mr. Lukic will now continue his

19     cross-examination.

20             Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

23        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Hogan.  Here we go again.

24        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Lukic.

25        Q.   We broke off while dealing with this document, and since it was

Page 17680

 1     last week I will ask for it to be displayed again, 65 ter --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please repeat the number.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the number, Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  It is 19792, and we need page 42 from this document.

 5             I have this page under a different number.  Maybe we should --

 6     give me one second.

 7             We'll try to locate the correct number of the page.  I'll

 8     continue.  But ...

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] You remember the photograph with the rocky

10     ground.  It's related to the VP 6 incident.  That is, from observation

11     point number 6.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have page number 52 because I'm -- I was

13     informed that I was right.  Yeah.  Yeah, that's it.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you remember if the city of Sarajevo is on

15     the left, as we're looking at this photograph?

16        A.   Yes, that's correct.  It's towards the left of the camera, from

17     the cameraman.

18        Q.   Do you agree with me when I say that if a mortar would to be

19     placed here, it would be possible to target it from Muslim positions?

20        A.   I'm sorry, if a mortar was to be placed on that road where the

21     camera was located, it would be possible to target it from Muslim

22     positions.  Is that --

23        Q.   [In English] Yes that is the question.

24        A.   I'm not an expert, but it would just seem logical that if a

25     weapon is firing in one direction and then another weapon could fire in

Page 17681

 1     the other direction, yes, I agree.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But, Mr. Lukic, shouldn't we be seeing the road

 3     from which -- the one you are talking about, rather than this rocky

 4     incline?

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is it correct that we see a little part of the

 6     road on the --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  The bottom part.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Bottom part of the left corner of the picture.

 9             Is that correct, Mr. Hogan?

10             THE WITNESS:  That is correct, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I establish that on my right screen looking e-court

12     that especially -- exactly that part of the picture is missing in the

13     left bottom corner, but we all apparently see that is visible a tiny

14     little bit of what seems to be a road.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Thank you.  My question was actually if this position would, in

18     such a case, be visible from the Muslim positions, the Muslim army

19     positions.

20        A.   I don't recall, but I believe if we look at the -- either the

21     photograph prior to this one or the photograph after this one, we should

22     have a view to the left in the direction of the city.  So we would be

23     able to see what the view would be like.

24             MR. LUKIC:  I cannot -- we cannot locate that picture.  In a

25     moment, maybe we might come back.

Page 17682

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 2             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  At what page are we now at this moment, Mr. --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Now we are at page 52.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Fifty-two.  I have a look nearby.  Please proceed,

 6     meanwhile.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   You checked the road at this position.  Did you find any traces

 9     of a mortar being dug in; and, if so, did you make a note of it?

10        A.   I didn't see any -- any signs of anything being dug in at this

11     location, no.

12        Q.   Did you see traces of digging in a mortar at some other location

13     that you visited; and, if so, did you make a note of it?

14        A.   I didn't see any traces of anything being dug in at any

15     locations, except for the normal farm work at the first location, the

16     first two locations I stopped in.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, would e-court page 47 of this document

19     assist you?

20             THE WITNESS:  Yes, that's the road where I was parked and -- and

21     up to the right is that rocky slope.  And I think he can see off in the

22     distance to the left, would be part of the city, is visible.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Let me now ask you about firing position 10.  You have already

25     spoken about it.

Page 17683

 1             Do you remember -- let us take a look at the first page of this

 2     document.  It's the page with the table which we saw briefly when the

 3     document was first displayed.

 4             Firing position 10 is marked as a position, the elevation of

 5     which is 1219 metres, and that would be the highest point of all that

 6     you -- that you visited.  Can you see it?

 7        A.   I do see it, yes.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now get 65 ter 1D1297 from the

 9     Defence list.

10        Q.   Here, in the centre of the photograph -- or, rather, in the

11     centre horizontally but in the upper part, can you see a TV tower; and,

12     if so, could you please circle it.

13        A.   Certainly.

14        Q.   Thank you.  WP 10, do you remember that the -- that point is to

15     the right of this TV tower?  It's actually the first promontory to the

16     right.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, before we ask any further questions, what

18     are we looking at at this moment?  Which direction are we looking?  Is

19     that mount Trebevic at the end, is it another mountain?

20             MR. LUKIC:  This is mountain Trebevic.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At least that's how you present it although we

22     are not received any -- but you say this is a look at mount Trebevic.

23             MR. LUKIC:  From the -- the picture was taken from Grdonj.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  From Grdonj.  That is more or less the direction

25     south/north.  No, no, I'm making a mistake.  North/south.

Page 17684

 1             We all -- we have seen in evidence there are a few maps where

 2     Grdonj is indicated, and we know that where mount Trebevic is, so I think

 3     I made a mistake.  It is from north to south, approximately.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Can you spot WP 10 in this photograph and is it the first summit

 8     to the right of the TV tower?

 9        A.   No, I can't spot way-point 10 in this photograph.  Perhaps if I

10     had that satellite image that we were looking at last week it might help

11     me to orient myself to this photograph.

12             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If it assists, I have the hard copies of the

13     witness -- was in possession of last week of that and the index.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  If Mr. Lukic wants to use them, he certainly will

15     appreciate your assistance, Ms. Hochhauser.

16             MR. LUKIC:  It's -- at least I have marked it as 65 ter 10441.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But, first, you should tender this, if you are

18     interested in it, because you will lose the markings.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Exactly.  Maybe I can ask another question before we

20     leave this picture.

21        Q.   Sir, you told us on Friday that you know where OP-1 was; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Can you mark OP-1 on this picture.

24        A.   I have to first orient myself with Colina Kapa, if you would

25     just bear with me.

Page 17685

 1        Q.   Yeah, I would like to ask you to mark Colina Kapa as well, if you

 2     can.

 3        A.   I would draw the outline of what I believe to be Colina Kapa.

 4     And I think OP-1 was in this area somewhere.  It's a little bit

 5     difficult -- it's -- because this is not a three-dimensional photograph,

 6     it is a little bit difficult to be sure that that's exactly where

 7     Colina Kapa was but it's in the same -- general direction.

 8        Q.   I agree with you where Colina Kapa is.  Only, according to the

 9     marking I have, OP-1 was more to the left.

10        A.   I'm sorry, that's my best estimate.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The parties could try to agree later on on the basis

12     of maps where OP-1 is situated and to see then whether they agree that

13     this is the right or perhaps not an accurate marking by the witness.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have this marked -- marked photo admitted in

16     evidence.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would appreciate if the witness could put OP-1

18     next to the second circle, to avoid any --

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- misunderstanding.

21             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And the bended line is the Colina Kapa.

23             Madam Registrar -- well, I think it is only one banded line,

24     Mr. Lukic.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1297 as marked by the witness receives

Page 17686

 1     number D375, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   You were unable to locate way-point 10 in this photograph.  But

 5     do you remember from your stay in the field that from way-point 10 there

 6     was a line of sight toward way-point 1; in other words, there were no

 7     obstacles between the two?

 8        A.   I don't recall that, no.

 9        Q.   Would you agree with me that the distance from this point, OP-10,

10     is some 2500 [as interpreted] metres from the Markale market, if we drew

11     a straight line from it or if we look at the satellite image and we -- if

12     we go by the straight line rather than follow the road?

13             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Sorry to interrupt.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Hochhauser.

15             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I have two just points of clarification.  One is

16     when it says "OP-10" which is the -- where the witness said he was not

17     able to locate, I don't know if Mr. Lukic meant way-point 10.

18             MR. LUKIC:  WP 10.  Yes, WP 10.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Way-point 10, we have the co-ordinates on the map,

20     is there.  They are given by the witness.  And the second clarification

21     you were seeking.

22             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  The other was when talking now about distances

23     using this satellite image, I wonder if the Court would like the

24     information about the elevation.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because, Mr. Lukic, you know that we have two

Page 17687

 1     types of distances.  The one is projected in a flat area as we find it on

 2     a map, and the other one, in which we include the inclination which makes

 3     the line longer than it looks on the map.

 4             Ms. Hochhauser, you have inquired into how the distance was

 5     measured in this picture.

 6             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes.  I inquired with the mapping unit who

 7     actually made the map, and I was told that the elevations are not

 8     calculated in order to establish the distances between two points on this

 9     map.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which means that the actual distance is longer

11     than what is shown on the map on the scale available.  Because the -- I

12     always remember that it was called the hypotenuse is longer than the

13     basis of a rectangular triangle.

14             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Common sense would agree with you but I -- I

15     have not inquired any further than what I just relayed.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you asked about distance.  What distance

17     did you have in mind?

18             MR. LUKIC:  And I see that it's wrongly -- maybe I misspoke but

19     it says "2500."  I wanted to ask more than 3500 and the distance I have

20     is 3686 metres.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But again what is the distance?  Is that the

22     projection of the --

23             MR. LUKIC:  On the map.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  On the map.

25             MR. LUKIC:  On the map.

Page 17688

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that actually it would be more.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  It would be more.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             Witness, can you tell us anything about whether the real distance

 5     which would be more than 3800, and forgive me, Mr. Lukic, but 76, or was

 6     it -- yeah, 86, whether that is it the -- whether that's the distance

 7     between that way-point and the Markale market.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I did not measure it.  But I would not

 9     dispute it.  If it had been measured it sounds reasonable.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And Markale market, you're talking about

11     Markale II, I take it, that covered not the open market but the covered

12     market.

13             MR. LUKIC:  The covered marked.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  One second, please.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  When I said 3800, of course I had to say 3600.  I

17     was misspeaking.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you remember that way-point 10 was a dominant

20     point from which you could actually observe Sarajevo?

21        A.   I think that way-point 10 was -- had a view towards the west so I

22     don't think you could see the main part of the city but the very far

23     western part towards Igman.  I believe that we could see a view of that.

24             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I'm sorry to interrupt again.  But might I

25     provide the witness with the satellite image so that he -- as he

Page 17689

 1     indicated it would be helpful --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Of course.

 3             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  -- to him to answer the questions.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Leave is granted.  Could the usher assist.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I see that way-point 10 does have a view to

 6     the east -- or, sorry, to the west.  So I think we looked at some of

 7     those photos last week and compared them to one of the Defence photos.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Can we see page 95 from the same document so maybe we

 9     can see more.  95.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that you want to refer to the number --

11     series of photographs, the approximately 100 with the table on the first

12     page.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. LUKIC:  65 ter, I think we have it on the screen,

16     65 ter 19792.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we have on the screen at this moment a

18     picture which was provided by the Defence.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Oh, that is right.  My mistake, sorry.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's the right document, I think.  And then

21     we -- you asked for page 95.

22             MR. LUKIC:  95, yes.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  19792.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   This is a picture from your collection.  We can see a big part of

Page 17690

 1     Sarajevo.  The photo was taken from that point; right?

 2        A.   This looks like it was taken from way-point 10 or way-point 6,

 3     looking towards the west.  And I think that's Igman in the distance with

 4     Hadzici and Sokolica Colonija [phoen].  The airport is visible so.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Should I understand this as that the centre part of

 6     town is not visible here?

 7             THE WITNESS:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10        Q.   And now let me ask you something about way-point 5.  Again from

11     the table we can see that you say that that point is at a -- an altitude

12     of 1073 metres.  You were shown a photo from this document.  The number

13     is 42.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Can we see the page number 42 from this document,

15     please.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you remember the place where you were?  Has

17     the photo jogged your memory?

18        A.   Yes, I remember this location.

19        Q.   Would you agree with me that in the direction that we are looking

20     at, there is no elevation, there's no hill.  The only obstacle is the

21     forest.  What I mean is that from the point where one is standing to take

22     the photo and the city, there is no obstacle but the forest.

23        A.   That's true.  The -- this photograph is from the view-point --

24     the camera is facing north towards the city and the ground falls away

25     from the camera at this point but there are, as you point out, trees and

Page 17691

 1     forest, yes.

 2        Q.   And would you agree with me that a shell fired from the mortar

 3     would be heard in the area behind this forest?  In other words, that the

 4     forest would not be an obstacle to the sound.  If you can agree with me;

 5     if not, we can move on.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, this needs audiological expertise, isn't

 7     it?  Unless you have established that the witness has it, apart from the

 8     fact that your question doesn't indicate at what distance, where, and, of

 9     course, a forest in itself does not stop sound, although it may have an

10     effect.

11             If you want the witness to answer this question, then please

12     establish that is that good basis for it.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] And now let's look at the map that you have in

15     front of you on the screen.  It's 65 ter 10441.  In this case, this is

16     Exhibit P2380.

17             If we project this on to the ground, this way-point is some

18     2800 metres from Markale; right?  Would you agree with that estimate?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Which way-point exactly do you refer to, Mr. Lukic?

20             MR. LUKIC:  Way-point number 5.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             THE WITNESS:  Approximately 2800 metres, I would -- yes.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   And the azimuth is less than 180 degrees.  Would you agree with

25     that as well?

Page 17692

 1        A.   I would, yes.

 2        Q.   We did our calculations, and we came up with 167.4 degrees.

 3     Would you agree that this corresponds with the point that you marked as

 4     way-point 5?

 5        A.   I did not precisely measure it, but I'm not going to dispute that

 6     measurement that you made.

 7        Q.   [In English] Thank you.  [Interpretation] Way-point 4 is what you

 8     marked as being at 1080 metres.  In the set of photos that you provided,

 9     together with way-point 4, we also find the photo depicted on page 33 of

10     this document.

11             However, we have to go back to 19792.  I apologise for that.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps if you have a few short questions,

13     Mr. Lukic, that's okay.  But, otherwise, we should take the break first.

14             MR. LUKIC:  We can take the break.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take the break first.

16             Could the usher escort the witness out of the courtroom.  We'd

17     like to see you back in 20 minutes, Mr. Hogan.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break, and we'll resume at 25 minutes

20     to 2.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 1.15 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 1.39 p.m.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 17693

 1        Q.   May we proceed?

 2        A.   Certainly.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I would like to have page number 33 from the same

 4     document.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] This is a photo which you linked to way-point 4.

 6     Obviously it faces the city.  You can actually see the city of

 7     Sarajevo -- Sarajevo from that point.  Please remember this photo as we

 8     move on to the following page, page 34.  This is Bistrik, the fortress of

 9     Bistrik.  The previous photo, was it actually taken in the direction of

10     Bistrik?  Was that the way the camera was facing when the photo was

11     taken?

12        A.   No.  The previous photo that we saw before this one was oriented

13     a bit further to the north.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And from where was it taken?

15             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, both this photograph and the previous

16     photograph were taken from way-point 4 on the satellite image.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Would you agree with me when I say that from way-point 4 there

20     are no obstacles; i.e., there's no hilltop or any such thing between

21     way-point 4 and the city of Sarajevo?

22        A.   From -- from the old city of Sarajevo, I would agree.

23     Technically there is an obstacle if you're looking towards the western

24     part of Sarajevo.  There's a rise in the land further to the west of

25     way-point 4.

Page 17694

 1             But for the old part of city -- of the city, I would agree with

 2     you.

 3        Q.   Would you also agree with me when I say that there are no natural

 4     obstacles in the direction of observation point 1?

 5        A.   If you just give me a minute.

 6        Q.   Sure.

 7        A.   All right.  Observation point 1 is on the northern slope of

 8     Colina Kapa.  So the actual crest of Colina Kapa would be between

 9     way-point 4 and observation point -- of post 1.

10        Q.   Do you know the elevation of Colina Kapa?

11        A.   Not at this moment.  I have seen the elevation on a map, but I --

12     I don't remember what it is.

13        Q.   Is it lower or higher than way-point 4, which is 1080 metres?

14        A.   I believe it would be lower.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And now let's focus on way-point 2, as well as on

16     way-point 3.

17             Would you agree with me if I said that these two points are both

18     in Studenkovici village?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Whenever we are going back to the various

20     way-points, could we have them on the screen.  That is the -- I don't

21     know ... that is the aerial photograph what the distance is and the

22     lines.

23             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  It's Exhibit P2380.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We have it on our screens now.  Could we zoom in on

25     the way-points.

Page 17695

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Is it true that way-point 3 and 2 are both in the territory of

 3     Studenkovici village?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Is it true that both these points, both way-point 2 and

 6     way-point 3, are located very high up on a very high elevation.  Do you

 7     remember?

 8        A.   It certainly is higher than the city of Sarajevo.  I think it's

 9     about 1200 metres, if my memory serves me correctly, above sea level.

10             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Can I -- I'm sorry again to interrupt.  But

11     there is the index to these photographs that the witness doesn't have in

12     front of him which marks the -- the relevant numbers, including the

13     elevations so --

14             MR. LUKIC:  If you have index, can you provide it for the

15     witness.

16             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Rather than asking the witness to guess.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And, Mr. Lukic, you said are these and these

18     way-points in Studenkovici.  What is the relevance for us to know that it

19     is in Studenkovici and not in any village by any other name?

20             MR. LUKIC:  It will be clear to us, Your Honour, when we will

21     see, and we can see, if you want, we have [Overlapping speakers] ...

22             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say it will become clear then I'll patiently

23     wait.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Would you also agree with me that this point is

Page 17696

 1     beyond the framework of 176 degrees, that it goes all the way up to 177

 2     or even 178 degrees?  I'm talking about way-point 3.

 3        A.   Way-point 3?  Well, I think -- well, it may be a fraction of a

 4     degree off of 176 degrees.  I tried to get on to the 176 degree line for

 5     both these way-points because they were the only two that I had access to

 6     along that azimuth.  So it -- it may be a quarter of a degree to the west

 7     of the actual 176-degree mark.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if you said it even goes to -- are you

 9     talking about the text or because if you look at it, it would be just --

10     it was touching upon -- is the middle of the curve which is, I would say,

11     if you look at the whole of it, if you know that the two lines are

12     6 degrees apart, then it would be minimal, I would say.  It's somewhere

13     176 and a half or something like that.  But, of course, we would have to

14     measure.

15             MR. LUKIC:  I'm not an expert so I'm just following what my

16     experts told me.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but -- experts.  One of the first things you

18     have to do with experts is first carefully consider whether they are

19     right or wrong.  And this is a matter of measurement.  It has got nothing

20     to do with -- to use a centimetre you don't have to be an expert.  Unless

21     the expert thought that the whole of the text WP 3 would cover the

22     way-point, which is not the case.

23             MR. LUKIC:  It might be the case because only now we actually

24     figured out through this witness that crescents are actually the point.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay, so now you -- knowing this, you can --

Page 17697

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Adapt --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- adjust your questions to what you know now

 3     instead of relying on the experts.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  May I proceed, Your Honour?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 7             [Interpretation] And now I'd like to call up 65 ter 1D1306 in

 8     e-court.

 9        Q.   Now the people who work for us have looked at the map which they

10     took from Google Earth, and they determined those points which, according

11     to them, represent way-point 2 and way-point 3.

12             And now the following photo.  I -- I need 65 ter 1D1307.

13             As a matter of fact, this depicts the village of Studenkovici and

14     its general region.  Would you agree with me that way-points 2 and 3 are

15     the points that are hidden in -- on the sloping ground and not in the

16     valley that is depicted in this photo?

17        A.   No.  I -- I believe the truck or lorry that's in the bottom

18     right-hand corner is the same location where I parked to take the

19     way-point GPS back in the summer of 2009.  Sorry, 2007.  So that -- I'm

20     sorry, and that would designate way-point 2.

21        Q.   Therefore, according to you, way-point 2 is the place where this

22     lorry is parked.

23        A.   Yes.  That's where I marked the GPS where I stopped, and I took a

24     way-point with my GPS and recorded those numbers, and that is what was

25     marked as way-point 2 on my map.

Page 17698

 1        Q.   Very well.  Just bear with me for a second, please.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic is instructed not to speak aloud.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   In that case, I would abandon the investigation that was carried

 5     out by Colonel Demurenko, and since I have also abandoned the work

 6     produced by Mr. van der Weijden, I ask you in what way you participated

 7     in his work.  And then we started discussing the incident known as F1.

 8     And now, in order for us to continue discussing the matter --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm still puzzled by what happens.  I

10     always understood that reading a GPS position was -- the outcome of that

11     is more or less dictated by, first of all, the satellites and then, of

12     course, by not misreading reading it.  But, therefore, I'm a bit puzzled

13     that both parties now have GPS readings which are the same but finding

14     themselves in entirely different positions and, of course, I'm wondering

15     what explains all this.

16             Now, Mr. Hogan has told us, at least as far as I understand, and

17     he has always photographed the GPS reading as well, as I saw in the

18     hundred photographs, that still is a puzzle for me, but ... I -- I would

19     invite the parties to see whether -- where it went wrong for whom?

20             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, unless I'm misunderstanding, the

21     prior -- the picture that was shown before this one, which was --

22     Mr. Lukic stated was their expert's explanation of where those way-points

23     were, I don't think we've heard what that is based on and whether it's

24     based on the same GS readings as Mr. Hogan received or the witness's

25     understanding of the markings on that Mount Trebevic satellite.  So I --

Page 17699

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If it is based on the markings and text rather than

 2     the crescent that might explain quite a bit.  But, of course, GPS

 3     readings should be the same performed by either Prosecution or Defence.

 4     I'm just puzzled by it.  Let's leave it to that.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I think the only discrepancy is in regard of VP 4, in

 7     regard to the last one.  Otherwise I don't see any other discrepancies.

 8        A.   Presently.  We are looking now at way-point 4.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I thought we were looking at 2 --

11             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, my mistake, 2.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Apparently for way-point 2 then there

13     is some disagreement.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could I now get D125 in e-court,

17     please.

18        Q.   Since this document is an exhibit already and an identical

19     photograph can be found in 65 ter 10270 on the OTP list, and the

20     photograph was marked by Ms. Pita on the 25th of September, 2001.

21             In this photograph, the house on the right -- actually, this roof

22     is the incident site.  It's here that the wounding took place.

23        A.   Yes.  I think this view-point is from the spot where the little

24     girl had been standing.

25        Q.   Let us just remember this brick wall of the house facing the

Page 17700

 1     camera.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now let's see 1D514.

 3        Q.   This is a map of Sarajevo, and we circled three locations.  I'll

 4     tell you what we consider them to be.  Or, actually, I'll ask you.

 5             If you take -- or --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   If you look at the top circle, does it show the location of the

 9     house on Zagrecka Street where incident F1 took place?

10        A.   Yes.  The house is within that circle.

11        Q.   If we look at the bottom circle, do we agree that it marks

12     Baba Stijena?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   The circle in the middle encircles three symbols on a green

15     surface.  These symbols are crescents.  Can you see them?

16        A.   I can see them, yes.

17        Q.   When you were at the site, do you remember visiting a Muslim

18     cemetery; and could you locate it with respect to this centre circle?

19        A.   Yes, I've been past that cemetery many times.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document as the

21     next Defence exhibit.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D514 receives number D376,

24     Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

Page 17701

 1             Now, Mr. Lukic, if you want to depict an area, I can imagine you

 2     use a circle.  If you want to depict a specific spot, I would not use a

 3     circle unless it is exactly that spot as in the centre of the circle, but

 4     then you'd do better by pointing at that centre.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe we can correct this map.  Because I think the

 6     circles are proper for Baba Stijena, since it's larger area, and for

 7     cemetery.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe the witness could put the dot on this map where

10     he thinks the incident took place.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That would ...

12             I don't know what conclusions later will be drawn from it, but

13     whatever the conclusions are, I take it that always the spot where the

14     victim was hit plays a role.

15             THE WITNESS:  It's -- it's approximately there but it's on the --

16     and maybe if I could try this again.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We can eradicate it and then do it again.

18             THE WITNESS:  Uh-huh.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             THE WITNESS:  Right.  Approximately there.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Then perhaps this document should be

24     saved instead of the previous one.  That will be our preferred solution.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, is it possible to replace the

Page 17702

 1     previous document by this one as the exhibit?

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Since the computer of the usher crashed, there'll be

 4     no possibility to save whatever.

 5             The previous one has been saved.  Could we invite the witness

 6     to ...

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Meanwhile you put some other questions to the

 9     witness and then we'll re-visit this issue, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  But I need usher's computer to see another

11     photo.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No questions without photos, maps.

13             MR. LUKIC:  I can proceed with different topic.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] We'll have to return to this question, sir.  And

15     I'll ask you about F12.

16             Dzenana Sokolovic, age 31, and her 7-year-old son, Mervin, were

17     fired on at Zmaja Od Bosne Street.

18             Did you in the picture P136, did you see the UN GOFRS who were

19     like firemen?

20        A.   I don't remember what the photograph -- which photograph you are

21     referring to but I have seen a photograph and video with GOFRS in it at

22     that location.

23        Q.   We're probably speaking about the same thing.  Once the system is

24     up again, we can take a look.

25             But did you see in that recording that the GOFRS, the members of

Page 17703

 1     that unit, were armed with pistols?

 2        A.   I don't remember seeing the pistols, but I've seen other

 3     photographs not of -- of GOFRS but not at this sniping location where

 4     they have been armed, and I -- I have personal knowledge that they were

 5     armed.  So that doesn't surprise me.

 6        Q.   Did you notice in the recordings, did you know otherwise, that

 7     they also had military weapons, such as sniping rifles?

 8        A.   Not in the photographs of this sniping incident.  I don't recall

 9     any such military weapons.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I see that the three blue circles on the

11     map are now available again.  Perhaps you could ask the witness to mark

12     where he thinks the house is where the victim was hit at the balcony.

13             THE WITNESS:  And I've just placed a red dot where I believe that

14     house is located.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You earlier said "approximately there."  I do

16     not know where there's --

17             THE WITNESS:  Approximately.  You are correct, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- any more precise way.

19             THE WITNESS:  It's just disappeared again.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  It just disappeared again.  We are -- I think it

21     would be wiser, Mr. Lukic, if we adjourn early today --

22             MR. LUKIC:  We will lose only a couple of minutes and it will

23     speed up if we have system working.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think it would be better to -- because now

25     going back to the previous subject doesn't make much sense.  Everyone

Page 17704

 1     gets confused.

 2             First, Mr. Hogan, we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at

 3     9.30 but then in Courtroom I again.  And I again instruct you that you

 4     should not speak or communicate in whatever way about your testimony.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You are may follow the usher.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, apart from technical problem, how much

 9     time you think you would still need tomorrow?

10             MR. LUKIC:  Are you telling me that you have problem with me

11     because I want more time?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I was talking about technical problems, nothing

13     else.

14             MR. LUKIC:  As I understood, we have only one more witness coming

15     this week.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

17             MR. GROOME:  Is the Chamber in receipt of the e-mail and new

18     schedule that I sent about an hour and a half ago?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I am afraid that I have not seen that.  But could I

20     immediately look at it, if it is already sent to -- let me have a look.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Don't think that we have received anything yet.

23             Could you summarise the gist of it.

24             MR. GROOME:  The gist of it is, Your Honour, that based on what

25     the Chamber has asked us to do with respect to Mr. Theunens, although

Page 17705

 1     last Friday I believed I could do that, and as much -- as hard as we

 2     tried over the weekend, it isn't possible to call him this week, so we're

 3     going to be rescheduling him to the second week in November.

 4             During that time we'll make the proposal that the Chamber has

 5     requested.  We'll sit down and talk with the Defence about what is truly

 6     in contention in the report, and as Mr. Ivetic was requesting notice

 7     about the documents, we will be able at that stage to identify which

 8     documents we'll be using in the first part of the report.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And that means what exactly for this week's

10     schedule?  I remember having seeing an e-mail in which you said he was

11     not available [overlapping speakers].

12             MR. GROOME:  We tried with a couple of witnesses and came close

13     with Mr. Higgs but he is not able to be here.  There is a witness that is

14     arriving I believe today, but he's represented, and we won't be able to

15     speak to him until his lawyer appears.  We will attempt to advance that

16     witness to Thursday.  But other than that, there is no other witnesses

17     that we can call this week.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  So that means if we finish Mr. Hogan tomorrow - I'm

19     looking at you, Mr. Lukic - tomorrow -- we would have no witness for

20     Wednesday but perhaps for Thursday.

21             MR. GROOME:  That's correct.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That perhaps makes life a bit more easy for

23     you, Mr. Lukic, and you know what the Chamber always seeks to achieve.

24             Then we adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the

25     1st of October, in Courtroom I, at 9.30 in the morning.

Page 17706

 1                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.14 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 1st day of

 3                           October, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.