Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17883

 1                           Wednesday, 16 October 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom after the break of one week we had.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that there were a few preliminary

12     matters to be raised by the Prosecution.  Mr. Traldi.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.  Good morning.

14             First, two brief notes regarding exhibits not related to this

15     witness.  P02198 was marked for identification on 17 September of this

16     year pending the B/C/S translation.  The B/C/S translation has been

17     received and uploaded into e-court under doc ID R0013471 B/C/S T.  We

18     request that the Court Officer be asked to attach the translation to the

19     English and that P2198 be admitted into evidence.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Has the Defence had an opportunity to look at it?

21     Then it was marked for identification ...

22             MR. TRALDI:  Yeah, Your Honour, I just put on the record that we

23     provided this information to the Defence as well as to Chambers by e-mail

24     on the 2nd of October this year at 3.26 p.m.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, apparently you've had an opportunity for

Page 17884

 1     14 days to look at it.  If you would want half a day more, I would not

 2     oppose because it doesn't make much sense to decide and then to revisit

 3     the matter.  But could you please --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  We will check by the end of the day.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  By the end of the day.

 6             Then we will deal with your request, Mr. Traldi, once we've heard

 7     from the Defence.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  The second similar matter, Your Honour,

 9     Exhibit P01110 was marked for identification pending translation of the

10     entire document on 23 July of this year.  A revised English translation

11     is now available.  The Prosecution will request that the English

12     translation currently in e-court be replaced with the revised

13     translation.  The doc ID for which is 03308987 ET REV.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, same response?  Then same answer as far

15     as I'm concerned.  We'd like to hear from you not later than tomorrow

16     morning and then we'll decide on the matter.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Then, Your Honour, a couple of brief notes about

18     exhibits related to this witness.  First, there are a number of exhibits

19     related to the witness's core expert report which set out his findings in

20     more detail.  If it would suit the Chamber, I will ask to have the expert

21     report marked for identification, tender it after cross-examination, and

22     simply postpone dealing with the related exhibits until after

23     cross-examination.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, may I expect that there's no objection

25     against this way of proceeding?

Page 17885

 1             MR. LUKIC:  No objections against the proceeding.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then that's -- then we'll ask for a number for

 3     the core expert report.

 4             Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Expert report which is number 30375 receives --

 6             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise, it's 28815 is the report, I believe.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document then 28815 receives number P2503,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

10             MR. TRALDI:  The second similar matter, Your Honour, is that

11     we'll be doing a slide show of a few illustrative examples.  The photos

12     we are using for it are all in the formatted entries or database

13     65 ter 28816 and 28817.  However, I submit that it would be clearest to

14     preserve the slide show as a separate exhibit as was done in other cases.

15     This will admittedly create a small amount of duplication, but I submit

16     that's outweighed by the benefit of a clear record.  We're in the

17     Chamber's hands as to that of course.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, any position about it?

19             MR. LUKIC:  I think that all our objections that go against the

20     report can be applied to these additions actually to the report.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, this is a matter of making the slide show

22     a separate exhibit rather than to be part of any -- that's rather

23     technical issue I would say.  That notwithstanding other objections that

24     were raised, do you have any objections against this technical exercise?

25             MR. LUKIC:  No, Your Honour.

Page 17886

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you are -- then you may proceed as you suggest,

 2     Mr. Traldi.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4             Third, the witness has identified submitted documents in his

 5     report, paragraphs 98 to 112, consistent with the Chamber's guide-lines.

 6     I may have a very brief bar table submission depending on what areas are

 7     challenged on cross, which will include several of these.  I anticipate

 8     excluding several of the longer documents identified in that section from

 9     the bar table submission.

10             And then on two most immediately relevant notes, Your Honours, I

11     wanted to put on the record that first the witness has requested to have

12     a copy of his report with him and has been provided with a clean copy and

13     I'd inquire if the Defence has any objections.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  From the nodding by Mr. Lukic, I see that there are

15     no objections against the witness having a copy.

16             MR. TRALDI:  And finally, Your Honour, as you'll see in the

17     corner of the room, we will be using a large visual.  I've provided A3 --

18     well, we've provided A3 copies to the Defence, Chamber, and to the

19     Chamber's Senior Legal Officer.  Depending on how we proceed, I may ask

20     to break a couple of minutes early to set it up.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's okay.  Now the hard copies are not of great

22     use for us because they are mainly illegible, so I take it that we could

23     also work on the -- on the digital versions of --

24             MR. TRALDI:  It is also in e-court, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 17887

 1             MR. TRALDI:  It's 65 ter 13413 [Realtime transcript read in

 2     error "14313"].

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that.  Nothing else?

 4             MR. TRALDI:  No, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, nothing from the Defence at this moment.

 6             Therefore, could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Just while that's happening, Your Honour, at page 5

 8     line 1 I'm recorded to have said 65 ter 14313 and I believe I said 13413.

 9     If I didn't, I should have said 13413.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that, Mr. Traldi

11                           [The witness entered court]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Riedlmayer, I presume?

13             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Riedlmayer, before you give evidence the Rules

15     require that you make a solemn declaration.  I invite you to make that

16     solemn declaration.

17             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

18     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  ANDRAS RIEDLMAYER

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Riedlmayer.  Please be seated.

21             Mr. Riedlmayer, you'll first be examined by Mr. Traldi.  You find

22     him to your right.

23             Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25                           Examination by Mr. Traldi:

Page 17888

 1        Q.   Good morning, sir.  Could you please state your name and

 2     occupation for the record.

 3        A.   My name is Andras Janos Riedlmayer I'm an art documentation

 4     specialist employed by Harvard University.

 5        Q.   And how long have you worked as Harvard?

 6        A.   I'm about to complete 28 years of service next week.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Could we please have 65 ter 28813.

 8        Q.   Mr. Riedlmayer, is this the curriculum vitae that you provided to

 9     the Office of the Prosecutor?

10        A.   It is.

11        Q.   And does it correctly set out your experience and your current

12     position?

13        A.   Yes, it does.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I -- the Prosecution tenders

15     65 ter 28813 into evidence.

16             MR. LUKIC:  No objections.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28813 receives P2504, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   Sir, can you briefly describe the research work you've done into

22     cultural property during the period of war in the former Yugoslavia?

23        A.   I started looking into damage to cultural property in the former

24     Yugoslavia while the war was still going on, collecting publicly

25     available documentation.  I wrote about it and in the mid-1990s I also

Page 17889

 1     helped organise cultural reconstruction initiatives.  In 1999 after the

 2     end of the Kosovo war, I conducted a field survey in Kosovo with a

 3     colleague, an architect, with the results submitted to both UNMIK, the UN

 4     administration in Kosovo and to the UN war crimes Tribunal.  Subsequently

 5     I was asked by the Office of the Prosecutor to also prepare reports on

 6     Bosnia.  These were based initially on a field survey conducted in the

 7     summer of 2002 and then also on subsequent visits to Bosnia and on

 8     documentation that I have collected over the past decade and more.

 9        Q.   And had you been familiar with the culture of the Balkan region

10     before you did the work you've just described?

11        A.   Yes.  I received my undergraduate degree in history from the

12     University of Chicago in 1969 and wrote my senior thesis on the subject

13     of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Congress of Berlin.  I received a graduate

14     degree in Near Eastern studies basically in Ottoman history from

15     Princeton University and there too part of my research had to do with the

16     Balkans.

17        Q.   And do you also speak what we refer to as B/C/S?

18        A.   I speak it with an accent but I can read it quite fluently.

19        Q.   When did you begin to acquire your familiarity with the language?

20        A.   In the early 1990s I took a course at Harvard and I've been

21     working at it ever since.

22        Q.   Can you briefly summarise for the Chamber what you view as

23     included within the ambit of cultural heritage in the former Yugoslavia?

24        A.   Cultural heritage consists of all the cultural production,

25     obviously, of the peoples of the former Yugoslavia, but the cultural

Page 17890

 1     heritage that I've documented for the Tribunal is limited to immovable

 2     cultural heritage, meaning buildings, institutions, rather than works of

 3     art or other things that are considered movable cultural heritage.  These

 4     typically consist of historic landmarks, buildings, monuments, as well as

 5     houses of worship of the various religious communities and archives and

 6     libraries as institutions.

 7        Q.   Based on your studies and your work, can you tell us about the

 8     role of houses of worship in Bosnian Muslim and Bosnian Croat cultures?

 9        A.   Okay.  Houses of worship in neighbourhoods and villages were

10     often the centres of religious life and, to some extent, also of cultural

11     and social life and they symbolised the visible presence of a community

12     in a given place.  So Mahala quarter of a city or a village would be

13     immediately recognisable as a place where Muslims or Croats lived by the

14     presence of a minaret or a church steeple.  Many of these neighbourhoods

15     and villages had a mixed population, and in that case you would see each

16     groups' prominent religious monument visible in the landscape.  In the

17     late 20th century especially in urban areas the majority of the

18     population was not particularly religiously observant.  They might go to

19     a mosque or a church mainly for the big transition of life events such as

20     weddings or funerals.  Nevertheless, the presence of these constituted

21     the sign that this community to which they belonged had history in that

22     place and belonged there.

23        Q.   You also discuss just now as well as in paragraphs 60 to 64 of

24     your report some other cultural sites, religious archives, libraries, a

25     monastery.  Can you explain the importance of those types of sites for

Page 17891

 1     the Chamber?

 2        A.   Okay.  In Bosnia-Herzegovina, as in much of south-eastern Europe,

 3     the civil registration of births, deaths, and marriages came along

 4     relatively late in history, basically around World War I, as a result of

 5     which the parish archives and the archives of the Islamic religious

 6     councils in each community held not only the records that pertained to

 7     the operation of those religious communities, but also the history of

 8     entire families and of entire groups of people.  In other words, their

 9     destruction is a loss not only to the operation of a parish but also to

10     the whole group whose past is captured in those documents.

11        Q.   Now I'd like to turn briefly to your current employment.  You

12     described yourself as an art documentation specialist.  Can you be more

13     specific about the position that you hold?

14        A.   I direct the documentation centre of the Aga Khan programme for

15     Islamic architecture at Harvard university.  The Aga Khan programme is a

16     joint programme between the school of architecture at MIT and the art

17     history department and urban planning department at Harvard.  The

18     documentation centre actively collects documentation on Islamic

19     architecture from around the world in all formats, including photographs,

20     digital images, textual documentation.  We also create some of our own

21     documentation by conducting photography missions.  We typically send out

22     groups of students on summer projects under supervision to bring back

23     documentation of specific sites.

24        Q.   And as director of the documentation centre, do you -- are you

25     involved in deciding what documentation becomes part of the collection?

Page 17892

 1        A.   Yes.  We -- for many years I have served on committees that

 2     approve student projects for summer documentation and when they bring

 3     back the documentation I oversee the selection of what gets kept and what

 4     does not, what makes good documentation and what is not worth keeping.

 5        Q.   Did you make similar evaluations of what made for suitable

 6     documentation in the course of preparing your report for this case?

 7        A.   Definitely.  Let's consider, for example, a building.

 8     Documentation would typically consist of a before and after picture.  If

 9     you have an after picture, it has to be one that provides sufficient

10     information about the building to tell what happened to it.  In many

11     cases we also -- I mean, I also was able to obtain cadastral plans or

12     pre-war ground plans.  This was very useful, especially in cases where

13     the building had been totally destroyed.  It was then a task to compare

14     the site in its post-war condition with the pre-war plan and match things

15     up.  So that is one aspect.  Another aspect is textual documentation.

16     Both in advance of my field of war and afterwards I would collect every

17     possible published documentation on particular sites, including published

18     photos, descriptions, histories, and so forth.  And I would evaluate

19     these sources as to their reliability and the utility for the purpose and

20     then match them up with the visual documentation in order to come to an

21     evaluation of what happened, both to specific sites and to a pattern of

22     sites at a larger scale.

23        Q.   Both in your work at the documentation centre and in preparing

24     the report, do you visit habitually every cultural site you're

25     researching?

Page 17893

 1        A.   No, I do not.  Typically in my work in the documentation centre,

 2     I work with photographs, texts, and digital images, and only when I go

 3     out on the very occasional field trip do I actually collect and create

 4     the documentation.  In my fieldwork for the Tribunal, I've been able on

 5     average to visit about half the sites that I documented.  I should also

 6     like to add that of -- in the process of evaluating the information for

 7     sites which I have not visited, I often compare what that particular

 8     source has to say about the sites which I did visit, and thereby be able

 9     to judge how reliable its descriptions or its evidence is for what I'm

10     trying to establish.

11        Q.   And for sources that you used regularly, your observations about

12     those sources' reliability is -- are set out in appendix 1 to your

13     report; is that right?

14        A.   That is correct.

15             MR. TRALDI:  I would ask that the Court Officer call up

16     MFI P2503.  And I believe what we have is 2504.  It should be

17     65 ter 28815.

18        Q.   Is this the first page of the expert report you drafted for this

19     case?

20        A.   Yes, it is.

21        Q.   And can you describe any additional information to what you've

22     said already that the Chamber should have in understanding the approach

23     you took to preparing this report?

24        A.   Could you clarify what you mean?  Methodology or ... ?

25        Q.   Just -- just briefly any additional steps you took beyond the

Page 17894

 1     fieldwork and sources you looked at above, anything that's important for

 2     a reader to understand the process of preparation.

 3        A.   Okay.  Well, the process of preparation includes, first of all,

 4     looking at published and unpublished allegations of destruction, also

 5     researching what buildings and institutions existed prior to the war.

 6     Then, in accordance with the terms of reference set by my mission which

 7     specified which municipalities I should collect information on, then

 8     assembling all possible documentation both from sites that I covered in

 9     my various visits to Bosnia and sites for which I have documentation.  If

10     there are sites for which there is insufficient documentation, I tried to

11     obtain additional documentation wherever possible; if that was not

12     possible, I had criteria by which I determined what the threshold was

13     below which I would simply not cover a site.  As I set out in my

14     description of my methodology, that typically included sites for which

15     there was no photo documentation available.  Photographs were required in

16     large part because damaged descriptions in the public -- published

17     documentation, such as that issued by the religious communities, was not

18     always very precise or reliable.  If a site is described as completely

19     devastated, what does that mean?  In the absence of either a site visit

20     or good photographs, I had no way of knowing what had really happened to

21     a site like that.

22        Q.   I'd like to discuss two specific points within the report at this

23     juncture.  First, in paragraphs 18 and 19 you describe which sites were

24     included.  Were you able -- sorry, did you exclude from the ambit of the

25     report any sites which you were able to prove to the thresholds you'd

Page 17895

 1     just described had existed before the war?

 2        A.   No.  I included everything for which adequate documentation was

 3     available.

 4        Q.   Regardless of whether anything had happened to it during the

 5     conflict?

 6        A.   Exactly.

 7        Q.   And in paragraph 15 you describe your report as documenting cases

 8     of "deliberate destruction."  What steps did you take to identify

 9     destruction as deliberate?

10        A.   Okay.  Well, first of all, one of my concerns was to ascertain

11     whether a building still stood on the eve of the war.  There was at least

12     one site in the schedule D list, which I determined had been damaged

13     before the war.  There was another site which apparently was essentially

14     a site that hadn't existed.  It was a duplicate name for another mosque,

15     this is Kutina.  So that was the first step.  The second one is how do

16     you know it's deliberate?  Okay.  You look at a building, first of all,

17     if it is falling down simply due to neglect, then you know that is not

18     necessarily deliberate damage.  Then you look at the context, is the

19     building more damaged or less damaged than surrounding buildings,

20     assuming they're -- it is in a context where there are surrounding

21     buildings.  And I include some statistics, I believe, in footnotes 17 and

22     27, where I compiled this information and found, in fact, that in the

23     majority of cases where this information was available, the surrounding

24     buildings had been less damaged and that these particular buildings had,

25     indeed, been the focus of damage.  So that I would call deliberate

Page 17896

 1     damage.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 28816, page 69.

 3        Q.   As that comes up, sir, aside from the report, did you also

 4     produce specific records called formatted entries for each of the sites?

 5        A.   Yes.  My report consists of three parts.  One is the database

 6     which we'll talk about more later.  That covers every site in these

 7     municipalities for which I have sufficient information.  The second one

 8     is the text report which we have already discussed.  And the third one is

 9     the formatted entries.  The formatted entries, so-called, cover each of

10     the schedule D indictment sites plus Srebrenica.  Formatted entry is

11     simply an expanded version of the database entry.  For technical reasons,

12     database entries can only accommodate a limited amount of information,

13     two vertical photos, two horizontal photos, and a limited amount of text.

14     For most of these sites I had more information than that available and so

15     I put them into essentially PDF document.  So sites might have additional

16     photos, additional text and the formatted entry reflects that.

17        Q.   And is this that we're seeing here an example of those formatted

18     entries?

19        A.   Yes, this is one of the mosques in Rogatica, the town of

20     Rogatica, it is the Arnaudija mosque and it is a site that I'd visited

21     personally.

22        Q.   Can we turn to the next page, please ...

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly slow down for the interpretation,

24     please, thank you very much.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Can we turn to the next page, page 70, please.

Page 17897

 1        Q.   Can you describe for us the relationship between the three

 2     photographs on this page?

 3        A.   Yes.  The two photos at the bottom are pre-war photographs of the

 4     mosque.  The photo on top shows how it looked in the period after the

 5     war.  I visited the site in 2002.  This photo is from 2005 from the

 6     Centre for Islamic Architecture of the Islamic Community of

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I chose it rather than my photo because my photo was

 8     a poor exposure.  It was getting dark when I was there.  As you can see,

 9     the site of the mosque is empty.  The building is simply gone.  In the

10     background at right is a building which is an updated version of the

11     buildings you see in the two pre-war photos, a bus station.  So it

12     confirms that we're looking at the same site.  When I visited the site, I

13     could also see disturbances in the ground cover.  I was there in the

14     summer.  This photo is from the autumn, so the ground is covered with

15     leaves.

16        Q.   In cases where mosque sites had become empty, like the photograph

17     we see here, were there characteristic features which you looked for to

18     determine that a mosque had at one point stood there?

19        A.   Yes.  There were several things that one could do to determine

20     that a building had stood there.  One I just alluded to is the

21     disturbance in the ground.  This is most frequently reflected by the fact

22     that when you tear down a building, typically if the foundations are not

23     removed the growth of vegetation will be different on top of what used to

24     be stone and on top of undisturbed earth.  And so very often you can

25     trace the outlines of a building even if the building has gone because

Page 17898

 1     the grass and weeds will be very sparse or stunted where walls had stood

 2     and much more lush where walls hadn't stood.  So you can pace it.  One

 3     can match these up to pre-war plans.  Also if one has pre-war photos it

 4     is often possible to match up the context, either by adjacent buildings

 5     or by topography.  Sometimes there are outlines of hills that you can

 6     match up, so the background tells you something.  There are roads.  And

 7     finally, if one has plans, many of these mosques had very specific

 8     dimensions and I would measure.

 9             There are also other ways you can tell.  The sites of destroyed

10     mosques often leave behind the Linden tree that is traditionally planted

11     next to the mosque when it's dedicated in BosniaLinden is going back

12     to pagan times, where a sacred tree of the Slavs -- and it was customary,

13     still is, in Bosnia that when a new mosque is erected that to the right

14     of the entrance a Linden tree is planted.  The Bosnian term is Lipa.  And

15     so often you would find a Linden tree and you would find a disturbed

16     ground and the other thing we would often we would find is a large

17     deposit of garbage marking where the mosque stood.  Often these sites

18     seemed to be deliberately chosen for the deposit of garbage and which

19     seemed very strange because often this was in the middle of a settlement

20     so not exactly the place where you would expect smelly refuse to be

21     stored.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Regarding this specific mosque, Arnaudija,

23     Your Honours, I would refer you to adjudicated fact 1137 and the evidence

24     of RM081.

25        Q.   And, sir, now I'm going to turn to the database.  The database is

Page 17899

 1     not compatible with e-court so to assist in understanding its functioning

 2     I would ask Ms. Stewart to pull up an example and if we could play it in

 3     Sanction.  The example we're looking at here is the Kukavica mosque in

 4     Foca.  Do you see it on your screen now?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   Is this a site you visited yourself?

 7        A.   It is.

 8        Q.   Can you describe what we're seeing in the pictures on this page?

 9        A.   Okay.  So, first of all, you will note the structure of the

10     database entry, where there are different forms of the name of the

11     building in English and in B/C/S, its precise location including GPS, its

12     date of construction, whether or not it was a listed monument, meaning

13     under legal protection as a historical landmark, and then its function,

14     and finally the context, whether it was heavily damaged or lightly

15     damaged, and what the surrounding buildings look like.

16             The pictures you see include pictures I've taken of the exterior

17     of the mosque.  One facade of the mosque has collapsed.  On the picture

18     at bottom right you can see the place where the minaret stood before it

19     was destroyed.  There's a pre-war photo that shows the context and

20     there's also a shot taken of the interior in June of 1996 right after the

21     war by a journalism student who -- whom I asked to take it.  He did

22     charity work in Bosnia the summer after the war and you can see that the

23     interior is filled with rubbish and a pig skull.

24             Above the pictures is my technical description exactly of what

25     the damage is --

Page 17900

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I interrupt, please?

 2             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it possible to point to us which one is the

 4     interior with the pig skull.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, it's the second photo from the

 6     top.  It's the only one that doesn't show the exterior of the building

 7     and the pig skull in the centre.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any way to zoom in on that or is that

 9     impossible?

10             MR. TRALDI:  I'll defer to Ms. Stewart on that, Your Honour --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

12             MR. TRALDI:  -- but if we get a second, we'll try.

13             THE WITNESS:  If it is -- is this just an image or -- oh, here it

14     is.  Okay.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you -- Mr. Riedlmayer, could you assist us

16     by -- you see that there's an -- there's an arrow at -- to guide it to

17     where we find the pig skull.  I think at this moment we are --

18             THE WITNESS:  It's at the very centre of the image.  You can see

19     the eye hole --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, I see it.  Could we just -- so that we are sure

21     you are looking at the same, could I ask the person who's handling the

22     arrow to go to the picture and then to -- I think that is where it is --

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think we all agree it's in the very centre,

25     you see a hole where the eye would have been --

Page 17901

 1             THE WITNESS:  And the mouth --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And the right side of the mouth.  Yes, thank you.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   Sir, why did you choose to provide the database along with the

 5     formatted records?

 6        A.   Okay.  The database is a database that I designed using the

 7     FileMaker software which allows one to search and sort on all fields.  It

 8     is very useful, I believe, for deriving statistical information.  One can

 9     search, for example, by municipality, by degree of destruction, by type

10     of building, by context, and so forth.  So most of this statistical

11     information that you find in my report was generated by searches of the

12     database.  And I thought it was -- would be useful for the Court to have

13     the database as a whole to be able to do searches of Their Honours'

14     advising.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put at this moment another additional

16     question.  How did you establish that the skull was the skull of a pig?

17             THE WITNESS:  It's a good question --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, Mr. Mladic, could you please remain --

19     if you want to consult with counsel, you're -- you have to remain

20     seated -- Mr. Mladic, you have to remain seated and if you want to

21     consult briefly and --

22             THE WITNESS:  I --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  One second, please.

24             Please proceed.

25             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Harvard has a museum of

Page 17902

 1     comparative zoology.  I took the photo over to the museum of comparative

 2     zoology where they have a collection of animal skulls and I compared them

 3     and I consulted the curator, and it was a positive identification that it

 4     is a pig skull.  It is also compatible with information on other sites,

 5     though not this particular one, that talks about pig skulls being --

 6     pigs' heads being deposited at sites of mosques because, as you're

 7     probably aware, pigs are considered unclean by Muslims.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have one other question of detail.  The

 9     description of the photograph says "skulls" and you talked about a skull.

10             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there a -- do we miss something or ... ?

12             THE WITNESS:  No.  That is a typographical error.  There's one

13     skull.  There are other bones that you can see amidst the rubbish.  The

14     interior of the mosque was burned out and this is how it was given to me

15     by the student who took the photograph and he described it as skulls so I

16     just wrote it.  But the one I could identify was the one right in the

17     middle of the photo.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             THE WITNESS:  It's a largish building, so there may have been

20     other ones outside of the photo.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So whether it's a typo or not is unclear?

22             THE WITNESS:  It's unclear in other words.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.

24             THE WITNESS:  But in any case, there is at least one identifiable

25     one.

Page 17903

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   And, Mr. Riedlmayer, I understand you have three brief

 5     corrections regarding the database which I'm simply going to read to you

 6     now.  First, the cover page of the database does not mention Srebrenica.

 7     Does the database also include Srebrenica sites?

 8        A.   It does.

 9        Q.   Second, regarding the Catholic church in Kozaric the database

10     entry lists it as damaged in June 1999.  Should that date read June 1992?

11        A.   That's correct, and that is a typo.

12        Q.   And finally, the Catholic church in Cesina, Sanski Most, is it

13     correct that that church was destroyed in June of 1993 rather than in

14     1995?

15        A.   That is my information, yes.

16        Q.   And that correction should also apply, should it not, to

17     paragraph 59 of your expert report?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. TRALDI:  I'd ask the Court Officer to call up 65 ter 28814.

20        Q.   And we see it already on the right.  Can you tell the Chamber

21     what this document is?

22        A.   Yes, it's an appendix that I devised called principal elements of

23     a Bosnian mosque.  I put it together in order to aid the Court in

24     understanding my database in which I refer to these terms and it -- if

25     you had this guide, you would understand, first of all, what is said

Page 17904

 1     without it needing to be explained.  But also this explains the relative

 2     position of elements of the mosque to each other.  Every mosque in Bosnia

 3     is oriented towards Mecca, which in Bosnia is generally a south-easterly

 4     direction.  And almost all mosques have the minaret to the right of the

 5     entrance.  The other elements are laid out there.  There's a prayer hall.

 6     There is a prayer niche called the mihrab marked with the letter D.  That

 7     indicates the direction of the prayer.  To the right of the prayer niche

 8     is a pulpit called a mimber from which sermons are delivered.  The

 9     minarets typically have an internal staircase and that is where the

10     muezzin, the man who gives the prayer call, goes up the minaret.  If we

11     could have the next page.

12             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to page 2, please.

13             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  So on this one -- should I wait for the

14     second one?  Yes.  On this one you can see the exterior of the same

15     mosque before the war.  So you can see that three-quarters of the way up

16     the minaret is a balcony from which the prayer call is issued.  The

17     balcony is called a "serefe" and it is important to note its presence

18     because in mosques that have been ruined you often have that as an

19     element among the damaged masonry.  The front of most mosques has a

20     portico here marked with a letter B, it comes in various shapes, but it

21     is again a distinctive element of the building.

22        Q.   And you use here the example of the Aladza mosque in Foca.  Why

23     did you choose that example?

24        A.   Basically because I had good documentation for it.  It was a

25     particularly notable document and there are books about it, and so it was

Page 17905

 1     easy to choose photos that were clear and understandable and I was able

 2     to locate good floor plans.

 3        Q.   When you studied what happened to that mosque, what did you

 4     learn?

 5        A.   The mosque was completely destroyed in 1992 and its ruins were

 6     razed and it was one of those sites where all you could see was the

 7     outlines of foundations after the end of the war.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have please 65 ter 28816, page 140.

 9        Q.   And what site do we see here on this page?

10        A.   Okay.  This is from the formatted entry for the Aladza mosque.

11     On the top photo which was taken in June of 1996 by the same student who

12     took the picture of the interior of the Kukavica mosque.  You can see the

13     circular outline in the front is of the ablution fountain in front of the

14     mosque and then behind it you can see the outlines of the foundations and

15     some buildings in the background, including some that have suffered

16     damage.  It's the Imam's house between the trees.  The photo below is

17     this site as it looked some years later, with more of a growth of

18     vegetation, but you can still see, if you look carefully, the places

19     where there had been a foundation of a mosque.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have page 142 of the same document.

21        Q.   And what site are we seeing here?

22        A.   Okay.  This is also in the town of Foca.  This is next to the

23     iron bridge on the Drina River.  In September of 2004, there was an

24     exhumation of a suspected mass grave site.  As far as I know, no human

25     remains were found, but at the depth of 7 metres, identifiable fragments

Page 17906

 1     of the Aladza mosque were found, column capitals, carved stone work,

 2     pieces of the mihrab were recovered from beneath tonnes of refuse.  This

 3     was at some considerable distance from where the mosque had stood, so the

 4     rubble had been moved.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have 65 ter 30376.

 6             While that comes up, Your Honours, regarding the mosques in Foca

 7     I would refer you also to adjudicated fact 721 and transcript page 17666.

 8     This, I'm afraid, is just a surrogate sheet.  Ms. Stewart will play what

 9     I'm looking for in Sanction.

10        Q.   Do you recognise this spreadsheet, sir?

11        A.   Yes.  This is a spreadsheet I put together at the request of the

12     Office of the Prosecutor.  It covers all of the reports I did for the six

13     Bosnia-related cases at this Tribunal, and it's simply a compilation of

14     each of the sites that were surveyed.  There are -- I don't remember the

15     exact figure, but it was something like 535 sites.  I have -- yes.  And

16     the red entries are Islamic religious sites, the blue entries are

17     Catholic religious sites, and there's a handful of black entries which

18     are heritage sites which are not connected to a particular community,

19     such as the oriental institute in Sarajevo, for example, which was a

20     state institution.

21        Q.   In studying those more than --

22        A.   Those are in black.

23        Q.   In studying those more than 500 sites, can you tell the Chamber

24     what patterns, if any, you were able to discern in the relationship

25     between the location of a site and what happened to it?

Page 17907

 1        A.   Again, would you clarify what you mean by the question.

 2        Q.   Sure.  Two of the pieces of information on this spreadsheet are

 3     where in Bosnia a specific site is located and the level of damage

 4     associated with that site.

 5        A.   Okay.  Yes.  What is indicated on these is, first of all, which

 6     municipality they're in, and then for each there is a GPS location, the

 7     degree of damage, and the date if it can be established.  And the general

 8     pattern was that sites which had been in territory which at various

 9     points in the war was under the control Bosnian Serb forces tended to be

10     heavily damaged or destroyed.  Sites that were near the confrontation

11     lines would have lesser degrees of damage, typically damage category 2.

12     And sites which were undamaged would be inside territory that was

13     controlled by the Bosnian government forces for the duration of the war.

14        Q.   Were those patterns consistent across all the municipalities

15     you've studied?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And does this spreadsheet include every site in those

18     municipalities for which you determined you had sufficient documentation?

19        A.   It does.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I think it might be time for the

21     break.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It is time for the break, but before we take the

23     break could we just have a bit of a closer look to the spreadsheet

24     because we see now columns A, B, C, D, and E, but what then follows and

25     what was apparently referred to is not visible.  Could we just move to F,

Page 17908

 1     G, and H so that we -- yes, so that we have an -- F is the condition of

 2     damage, I take it --

 3             THE WITNESS:  And G is the reported date of destruction.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   Just to be totally clear, perhaps the number in column F, does

 6     that correspond to the scale you set out in your report?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We've seen it.

 9             We take a break.

10             Mr. Traldi, will you be able to set up everything during the

11     break or would we need another five minutes after that?

12             MR. TRALDI:  I think the break should be sufficient, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Are you on track as far as time is concerned?

14             MR. TRALDI:  Approximately, Your Honour, yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, I asked for the electronic version of

16     65 ter 13413, but having looked at it, if you zoom in then it turns out

17     that the -- how do you say it, the number of pixels, et cetera, is

18     insufficient to even read it when zoomed in.  I don't know how you are

19     going to deal with that or whether you'd expect us to take home one of

20     these huge maps.  We have to find a way that we cannot only look at it in

21     this courtroom but also later if we have to deliberate on these matters.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour, we can explore the technological

23     side of things.  The map itself is in custody of court management, and so

24     we'll try and work things out with them as best we can.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so we have a way to access that material and be

Page 17909

 1     able to read what is written on it as well.

 2             We take a break but not until after Mr. Riedlmayer has been

 3     escorted out of the courtroom.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And we resume at five minutes to 11.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness will be escorted into the courtroom.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   Before we start with the map, sir, I know we'd arranged a pointer

13     with Registry.  Have you been provided with it?  I'll take that as a yes.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Then do you recognise the map that's just to your left?

16        A.   Yes.  This is a map compiled by Mr. Bekir Besic, who was a member

17     of the Council of Islamic Community of Banja Luka, and who now lives as a

18     refugee in a third country.  He mapped the sites of destroyed mosques

19     based largely on the published report by Muharem Omerdic, which is cited

20     among the sources of my report.

21        Q.   Is this also one of the sources you used in preparing your

22     report?

23        A.   It is not a -- the Omerdic or the map?

24        Q.   [Microphone not activated] The map.

25        A.   Okay.  The map is provided largely as an illustration of the

Page 17910

 1     pattern of destruction, but insofar as my report is based on specific

 2     subsets of municipalities, obviously I was not dealing with the entirety

 3     of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 4        Q.   So can you tell us, to start working with it, just generally what

 5     we're looking at.

 6        A.   Okay.  So what we're looking at is a map of

 7     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  The large green circles reflect the larger

 8     towns.  At the centre is Sarajevo.  In the south is Mostar.  Here are

 9     Travnik and Zenica at the centre, Banja Luka at the top, and Tuzla in the

10     east.  This is -- in the far east is Gorazde in the Drina valley.  The

11     various coloured dots on the map represent damaged, destroyed, and intact

12     mosques.  I'm sorry that it's so far from the Bench, but maybe the camera

13     can zoom in.  I also know from having handled the map that it does fold

14     and can be spread out on a table.  So it should be possible to handle it

15     outside of a court setting.

16        Q.   And can you just let us know what respectively the red, yellow,

17     and green dots represent.

18        A.   Red dots marked the sites of destroyed or severely damaged

19     mosques, yellow dots mark mosques that are lightly damaged, and green

20     dots mark the sites of mosques that are undamaged.  These are not in

21     complete match with my multi-point scale, but I think it's generally

22     consistent.

23        Q.   And geographically, how does the distribution of these sites

24     relate to the pattern that you described earlier?

25        A.   I think it matches the phenomenon I described with reference to

Page 17911

 1     the Excel spreadsheet that we discussed shortly before the break.  You

 2     can see, Your Honours, the pattern of red dots.  If you start here in

 3     Sarajevo --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

 5             THE WITNESS:  You can see red dots going down to Mostar and then

 6     in the other direction up this way --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  It is difficult to

 8     understand --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, one second, Mr. Riedlmayer.

10             THE WITNESS:  I'm sure --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you --

12             THE WITNESS:  I hope you could hear --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I can --

14             THE WITNESS:  So let me --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

16             THE WITNESS:  Yeah?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I can hear you.  The interpreters cannot hear you if

18     you move away from your microphone, and therefore then there'll be no

19     translation in other languages.  So if you could -- is there any way to

20     have an extended microphone fitted or is there -- that's not possible.

21     Then I have to ask that the map --

22             THE WITNESS:  I could --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- will be moved slightly and that you stay as close

24     to the microphone, and if you speak that the microphone is adjusted in

25     such a way that if you then would speak slowly --

Page 17912

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And could I ask transcriber and interpreters to

 3     immediately yell at me, either directly or through my earphones, that

 4     they cannot follow you.  And could I really invite you to slow down --

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and that we -- I can intervene whenever there's a

 7     need to do that --

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   Sir --

10        A.   I'll do my best.

11        Q.   Sir, perhaps if you could, you were describing specific regions

12     where there are particular concentrations of red dots.  Perhaps if you

13     could indicate for the Chamber, whilst sitting, there's this specific

14     region where there's a particular concentration and then point, that

15     would be easiest for the interpreters.

16        A.   Yes.  So what I was trying to point out is that the pattern which

17     I indicated with reference to the GPS spreadsheet is graphically

18     illustrated on this map.  The red dots are concentrated pretty much in

19     territory that was under the control of Bosnian Serb forces at various

20     points during the war.  This is the case for the following regions:  In

21     Southern Herzegovina, in Eastern Bosnia, up the Drina valley, and then

22     across Northern Bosnia, and then down towards Kupres and Donji Vakuf.

23     Yellow dots tend to follow the confrontation lines during the war.  The

24     only place where yellow dots appear elsewhere in some profusion is in

25     Central Bosnia, which was the site of the war within the war that pitted

Page 17913

 1     Croat militias against the forces aligned with the Sarajevo government.

 2     None of the municipalities in this case are located in Central Bosnia so

 3     it's not of direct relevance I don't think.  The green dots which

 4     indicate the locations of intact mosques are concentrated in areas which

 5     were under the control of the Sarajevo government throughout the war.

 6     For example, up here in what was the Bihac pocket in the far

 7     north-western corner of Bosnia and over here in the central zone near

 8     Zenica and near Tuzla.  And you will observe, Your Honours, no green dots

 9     in any of the territories that were under the control of the VRS during

10     the war.

11        Q.   Sir, are you able to approximate for the Chamber the number of

12     red dots on the map?

13        A.   Yes.  There is a statistic on the map.  It adds up to 900-odd

14     red dots, in other words, severely damaged or destroyed mosques.

15        Q.   Of those 900 or so red dots, about how many have you visited

16     yourself, how many of those sites over the years?

17        A.   I think roughly half.

18        Q.   And are you able to approximate what percentage of the total

19     mosques on the map are represented with those red dots?

20        A.   Yes, roughly three-quarters of the mosques represented on the map

21     have been either damaged or destroyed.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, that concludes the questions I have

23     about the map.  I put on the record earlier, I think, the 65 ter number

24     but just to be completely clear 13413.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's 13413.

Page 17914

 1             I have one additional question.  Could you again tell us where

 2     the concentration of green dots are found because I --

 3             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I will stand up and simply point.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then I have a look at the map which is

 5     before us.  Yes.

 6             THE WITNESS:  There is one group around Bihac in

 7     north-western Bosnia-Herzegovina.  There's another group in

 8     Central Bosnia, east and north-east of Zenica.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I found it.  That's --

10             THE WITNESS:  And there's a third group that's in the

11     Tuzla region, north of Tuzla, and slightly east and south of Tuzla.

12     Everywhere else you either see yellow dots, such as along here, along the

13     front lines or -- or you see red dots which are pretty much everywhere.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Riedlmayer, for that.

15             Mr. Traldi, you have done with the map --

16             MR. TRALDI:  I --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- so we can -- the map perhaps can be moved away so

18     that the public gallery has a better view.

19             MR. TRALDI:  It could, Your Honour.

20        Q.   While it's being moved, sir, the larger green circles, what do

21     those represent?

22        A.   I think I mentioned that they represent the larger population

23     centres.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Then I'd ask that 65 ter 30375 be called to our

25     screens.

Page 17915

 1        Q.   Do you recognise this document, sir?

 2        A.   Yes, it's a document I prepared at the request of OTP, just at

 3     the end of last month.

 4        Q.   What is -- what does it record?

 5        A.   It records information in -- that I received from informants

 6     during the course of my fieldwork as to who is allegedly the party

 7     responsible for the destruction of various buildings.

 8        Q.   And when you were preparing this chart, where did you locate the

 9     information?

10        A.   I -- all the information is derived from my previous reports that

11     were submitted to the Tribunal.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Could we next have Exhibit P178.

13        Q.   Sir, I'm going to be very quick about this.  Did you review the

14     maps for the following municipalities that are contained in this book:

15     Foca, Kljuc, Kotor Varos, Prijedor, Novi Grad, and Sokolac?

16        A.   Yes, I did.

17        Q.   Did you confirm that with one exception the mosques and churches

18     represented there were located correctly based on your research?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And is that exception that your research indicates that the

21     mosques at Pudin Han and Velagici were in fact the same mosque?

22        A.   Yes, that's the exception.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Could we next have 65 ter 03120.

24        Q.   And, sir, are you familiar with this document?

25        A.   I am familiar with it.  I received a copy from the

Page 17916

 1     Islamic Community, the Medzlis of the Islamic Community in Kljuc during

 2     my fieldwork and a copy was also provided to me by OTP.

 3        Q.   The sites in this document that you were familiar with, were they

 4     described correctly?

 5        A.   Yes, they were.

 6        Q.   And you mentioned earlier that sometimes the Islamic or Catholic

 7     community wouldn't when they prepared a document like this use the most

 8     scientific terminology in describing the consequences.  Does that caveat

 9     apply here as well?

10        A.   Yes, and it's worth noting that the damage described is

11     encyclopedic; in other words, they include not only events of the

12     1992-1995 war, but they also catalogue destruction from World War II but

13     they make it clear which is which.

14        Q.   The document assigns financial values to the consequences for

15     each site.  Do you have any comment on the value of these sites for that

16     community?

17        A.   I think the -- I looked very closely at instance.  I've worked on

18     a couple of reconstruction projects after the war.  I have some sense of

19     what it really takes to reconstruct a historic building and the values

20     they assign here are very much the per square metre values that are used

21     for calculating costs of housing reconstruction.  So, in financial terms,

22     this is a very low statement.  The real value is what I was trying to

23     point out before the break, namely, the symbolic value for these

24     communities of what these mosques represented, both in terms of their

25     being sacred sites and what they embodied for the community, symbolically

Page 17917

 1     and functionally.

 2        Q.   Relatedly, in paragraphs 43 to 45 of your report you discuss the

 3     impact of the destruction of houses of worship on the communities which

 4     prayed there.  And you refer to quotes from a Serb leader from Sokolac

 5     and a Muslim resident of Banja Luka.  Why did you choose to include those


 7        A.   I think precisely with a view of assisting the Court in

 8     determining what was the reason for the destruction of these mosques.

 9        Q.   And in terms of discussions that you're familiar with from people

10     in Bosnia, are those quotes an exhaustive list of statements you're

11     familiar on the topic or illustrative?

12        A.   They're meant to be illustrative.

13             MR. TRALDI:  And I'd refer Your Honours as well to transcript

14     page 17388.  And at this point I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to pull up in

15     Sanction the slide show that we've prepared and we'll go through this in

16     I would expect 15 minutes.

17        Q.   Sir, can you tell us what we're looking at in this first picture?

18        A.   It's one of the pictures from my formatted entry.  It's the

19     mosque in Vrhpolje, a village in Sanski Most municipality.  This is a

20     picture taken in December of 1995 at the very end of the war.  You can

21     see to the left the burned-out houses of the village.  In the centre is

22     the mosque, the mosque at that point was still under construction.  There

23     is a stump of the minaret up front with a pile of rubble covered by snow,

24     and the mosque itself, as it has no windows and holes in the wall.  I

25     would call it a lightly damaged mosque because it is not structurally

Page 17918

 1     impaired.

 2        Q.   And it was relatively rare the mosques you identified were

 3     lightly damaged.  Is it surprising to find this mosque lightly damaged?

 4        A.   Not as such.  The -- if Your Honours refer to my report, you will

 5     see that mosques that were lightly damaged, I believe there were only six

 6     of them, for the most part were mosques that had not yet been formally

 7     inaugurated.  They were under construction.  At some cases they had been

 8     in informal use as overflow areas for holiday prayers, but basically they

 9     had not been registered with the civil authorities as active mosques yet,

10     they hadn't been inaugurated.

11        Q.   What did you take from that?

12        A.   My contention is that given that very often in close vicinity to

13     these unfinished mosque, older mosques had been destroyed, that there

14     must have been some sort of list which excluded these buildings.  If one

15     considers that during the war things like explosives, manpower,

16     transportation were all in high demand, I can -- it's a reasonable

17     conclusion to take.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I might just ask a question, Mr. Traldi.

19             Mr. Riedlmayer, you say at page 35, line 25, that you -- the

20     mosques that were lightly damaged you believe had not been inaugurated

21     and you believe there were only six of them.

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And --

24             THE WITNESS:  These were mosques, Your Honour, that were under

25     construction on the eve of the war.

Page 17919

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The six referred -- the six number refers to those

 2     that were under construction?

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I beg your pardon, because the transcript was

 5     saying that those that you -- that were slightly damaged and I was just

 6     going to ask that --

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yeah --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- how do you reconcile that with the yellow dots

 9     but you have answered that.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, if I might --

11             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry, I'm sorry for interrupting.  If we just can

12     get a number of the document, which number is the document we are looking

13     at?

14             MR. TRALDI:  The slide show's prepared using images in the

15     formatted entries, and so, for instance, this one, the formatted entry

16     for Vrhpolje, appears on page 109 of 65 ter 28816.  I'm told that the

17     slide show has been assigned 65 ter 30417 and can be viewed separately

18     that way.

19             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, I would add also that the number before

20     Vrhpolje and on each of these slides refers to the number of the

21     formatted entry.

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   Sir, I'd like to return briefly to the question

24     His Honour Judge Moloto asked you, and when you say --

25             MR. LUKIC:  I'm --

Page 17920

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] --

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  This 30417 is not on the list so for us it is really

 4     hard to follow this.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, this is created like a clip from a

 6     video that is on the list.  This is essentially clips from the formatted

 7     entries.  Each of these images is taken from a page of 65 ter 28816.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, does this assist you?

 9             If Mr. Lukic would need more time do you know from what pages?

10             MR. TRALDI:  For each slide, Your Honour, I can put on the record

11     where that site's entry begins.  So the Vrhpolje entry begins at page

12     169 of 28816.  And I'll do that as I start each new site.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. TRALDI:  If that's useful.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So that you can find it on the relevant page,

16     Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. TRALDI:  There is also the database, of course, which is

18     searchable by the name of the site.

19        Q.   But I'd like to go back, sir, to Judge Moloto's question, if I

20     might.  And he asked you about the number of lightly damaged sites.

21        A.   Mm-hmm.

22        Q.   And I believe, in your report, you referred to six lightly

23     damaged sites --

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   -- and you discuss each of them individually?

Page 17921

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, that's a different number than the number of yellow dots on

 3     the map?

 4        A.   Yes, sir.  The yellow dots on the map cover all of Bosnia and

 5     they're concentrated mostly in municipalities that were on the front

 6     line, like near Doboj in the Posavina corridor.  The fact that there are

 7     so few of them in the municipalities covered by this report is simply due

 8     to the choice of indictment municipalities.  So the two numbers represent

 9     different basis.

10             MR. TRALDI:  If we could go to the next slide, please.

11        Q.   This is still the same site.

12        A.   Yeah.  This is a photo taken in the first summer after the war,

13     summer of 1996.  And I've included it just to show a close-up of what

14     really happened to this minaret.  The minaret had been finished before

15     the war and you can see there's only a massive stump left.  The way one

16     can tell that it was destroyed is you can see hanging down from the

17     minaret strips of masonry connected by the iron rod within.  This is a

18     modern construction method where originally you had the rebar, the iron

19     bars, connected to the concrete structure and cladding.  And in the way

20     that I described in the report, explosives were placed inside the

21     stairwell and the force blew it out.  I believe we can see it more

22     clearly on the next slide.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Could we go to the next then.

24             And, Mr. Lukic, this is the Sanica mosque in Kljuc and begins at

25     page 173 of 28816.

Page 17922

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  This is another mosque, it was a mosque that

 2     was heavily damaged.  My damage categories apply here to the extent not

 3     only was the minaret damaged but the mosque itself is completely burned

 4     out, it's lost its roof, the walls are deteriorated.  But here you can

 5     see very clearly the phenomenon I was referring to, the strips hanging

 6     down from the minaret.  They had been forced apart by the force of the

 7     blast, and so the iron bars were bent out very much like a wilted flour.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, regarding events in Sanica I would

 9     refer you to the evidence of RM10 and 21.

10             If we could go to the next slide.

11        Q.   This slide refers to the Kotor Varos church.  In 65 ter 28816 it

12     begins on page 191.

13        A.   Okay.  This is a photograph that I took during my field visit.

14     It's the interior of the church of the Nativity of the

15     Blessed Virgin Mary in Kotor Varos, it's the main parish church, and you

16     can see that the church is completely burned out.  I was able to

17     ascertain the fact that it was burned out by the fact that wooden

18     elements, such as the cross on the wall behind what used to be the altar

19     were completely charred.  Not visible in this photo but behind where I

20     was standing there were Serbian graffiti on the walls, the roof was

21     missing, and the two steeples of the church had been blown up and one of

22     them had fallen into the parish house which was next to the church.  So

23     this I would call a heavily damaged building.

24             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours, I would refer you to adjudicated

25     fact 818.

Page 17923

 1             And then ask that we turn to the next slide.

 2        Q.   This -- the formatted entry for the Hanifici mosque begins on

 3     page 183 of 28816.

 4        A.   Yeah.  This is the mosque in Hanifici, in Kotor Varos

 5     municipality.  It is a photo taken by an OTP investigator in 2001, and it

 6     shows the entrance facade of the mosque, so one is looking from the

 7     north-west towards the south-east.  You can tell that first of all that

 8     it is a burned-out building because you can see the charred roof

 9     structure.  At the time I was there, I went inside and also took photos

10     of the other side of the building which had soot marks on it.  And to the

11     right of the entrance is the stump of the minaret.  You can see it.  It

12     is broken off at an odd angle.  At the time the OTP investigators were

13     there in 2001 the body of the minaret was still lying next to the mosque.

14     By the time I was there a year later, it had been moved in preparation

15     for reconstruction.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, as to how the damage occurred, I'd

17     refer you to the evidence of Witness Pazic at transcript page 605 and I'd

18     also refer you to adjudicated facts 817 and 819.  If we could go to the

19     next slide.  In 65 ter 28816 this formatted record starts at page 88.

20        Q.   Can you describe for us what we are seeing here?

21        A.   This is a building I would include in my almost destroyed

22     category.  Almost destroyed means that the building is damaged beyond

23     repair, but there are still identifiable elements above ground.  You can

24     see here that three of the four walls of the mosque had been completely

25     blown-out and that a roof slab made of reinforced concrete has simply

Page 17924

 1     collapsed on to the body of the mosque.  At the left you can see the

 2     minaret has been blown up as well, so the building is a total loss but it

 3     has not been cleared away so I couldn't -- wouldn't call it fully

 4     destroyed.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd refer you to the evidence of RM15

 6     and adjudicated facts 1192 and 93.  I'd ask that we turn to the next

 7     slide.  The formatted record for this begins on page 213 of 65 ter 28816.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yes, this is the mosque in the village of

 9     Ahatovici.  It's about 6 kilometres from Sarajevo in the Novi Grad

10     municipality.  It belongs in the almost destroyed category simply by

11     virtue of the fact that it still has a few identifiable elements, the

12     massive stump of the minaret and next to it upside down is the "serefe"

13     or the balcony of the minaret where the muezzin used to come out.  On the

14     other side of the site there is -- there are also scattered other

15     building elements, but basically the building is almost destroyed.

16             MR. TRALDI:  I'd refer Your Honours to adjudicated fact 1231 and

17     ask that we turn to the next slide in 65 ter 28816 this entry begins on

18     page 1.

19             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  This is the mosque in the village of Atmacici

20     and this illustrates the fact, simply, that if something was a

21     border-line case between totally destroyed and almost destroyed or

22     heavily damaged or lightly damaged, I tried to be conservative about it

23     and always assign it to the higher category.  You can see part of a

24     lintel and to the right of the rubble is the stump of the minaret, but

25     the mosque with very few modification could have fallen into the next

Page 17925

 1     damage category.

 2             MR. TRALDI:

 3        Q.   When you say the higher category?

 4        A.   Meaning -- I'm sorry, what I meant was if there was a choice

 5     between calling it totally destroyed and almost destroyed, if it was a

 6     border-line case I would make it the lighter degree of damage.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  And I'd refer Your Honours to adjudicated fact 517

 8     and ask that we turn to the next slide.  And this formatted record starts

 9     on page 42.

10        Q.   Can you help orient us a little bit for the two pictures next to

11     each other, sir?

12        A.   Yes.  The photo at left is from a book en masse published in

13     1990, so just two years before the war.  If Your Honours look very

14     closely, you will see that the picture is taken from a road which runs in

15     front of the mosque, and at the right-hand side of the mosque between the

16     fence that runs along the road and the mosque itself is a tall

17     Bosnian Muslim tombstone.  The photo at the right is one that I took in

18     my 2002 fieldwork.  You can see the same road running on the left-hand

19     side of the photo.  The same tombstone standing next to the road and next

20     to the fence, and you can see very clearly on this one how you can tell

21     the foundations, where they had been.  So basically it's a

22     90-degrees-revolved picture.  Imagine you're looking at the pre-war and

23     you move 90 degrees counter clockwise and you get the photo on the right.

24        Q.   And we discussed earlier some of the comments that you cited in

25     your report regarding the effect of what happened to a mosque on the

Page 17926

 1     community that worshipped there.  Were you aware of any similar comments

 2     made about mosques in Prijedor municipality?

 3        A.   Yes, and this was included in some of my prior reports for the

 4     Tribunal.  In August of 1992 Simo Drljaca, who was the police chief for

 5     Prijedor and the five municipalities in Bosanska Krajina, was interviewed

 6     by Chuck Sudetic for the New York Times and Mr. Drljaca is reported to

 7     have said:  With their mosques it's not enough to break the minaret.  You

 8     have to shake-up the foundation because then they cannot build a new one.

 9     You do that and they will want to leave, meaning the Muslims.  They will

10     leave on their own, and that's more or less the quote as I have it from

11     memory.

12             MR. TRALDI:  For this site, Your Honour, I'd refer you to the

13     evidence of, inter alia, RM080 and Exhibit P485.  And I'd ask that we

14     turn to the next slide.  The formatted record for this site begins at

15     page 38 of 65 ter 28816.

16        Q.   Can you explain to us what we're looking at here?

17        A.   The photo at left -- this is the -- first of all, this is the

18     parish church of St. Joseph in Prijedor, the only Catholic parish church

19     in town.  The photo at left was taken by the photo journalist

20     Andreas Kaiser in September of 1992.  The church had been destroyed by an

21     explosion.  The woman in front is collecting firewood and the only parts

22     of the church that remain is -- are the large arch which stood between

23     the altar and the congregation on the interior of the church.  And not

24     visible in the photo but known to me from an interview with the parish

25     priest is that the church steeple -- a modern one was lying at an angle

Page 17927

 1     in the front.  The photo at right was taken in the summer of 1995 after

 2     the church had been blown up a second time.  If Your Honours will look

 3     carefully to the right of the tree at right, meaning near the right edge,

 4     you can see part of the arch.  You can see it's broken off, but the rest

 5     of the building is simply gone.

 6        Q.   And is --

 7        A.   So this shows destructioning in stages.

 8        Q.   Is that next to what looks like part of a wall?

 9        A.   Yes.  It's next -- next to the group of trees in the background

10     there.

11             MR. TRALDI:  For this site I'd refer Your Honours to the evidence

12     of RM57 and adjudicated fact 1103 and I'd ask that we turn to the next

13     slide.

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

15             MR. TRALDI:  This begins on page 180 of the formatted records.

16             THE WITNESS:  So, and this is the parish -- Catholic parish

17     church in Kljuc, the church of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed

18     Virgin Mary.  Again I will ask Your Honours to take a careful look at it.

19     The road that is in both pictures is a little bit deceptive because the

20     two photos are actually taken from opposite ends of the road.  So on the

21     picture at left the church is to the left of the road.  The picture at

22     right, the pile of stones that marks where the church stood is to the

23     right of the road.  The building to the left of the church in the

24     pre-destruction photo can be seen behind a tree on the right-hand side of

25     the post-destruction photo.  The pre-destruction photo came from the

Page 17928

 1     Catholic church authorities.  The post-destruction photo was taken by the

 2     Council of Europe survey team which went to Bosnia two years after the

 3     war --

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   Then there are three remaining sites I think that you wanted to

 6     point us to and I would like to go through those quickly, but if we could

 7     go to the next slide this will be the Pudin Han-Velagici mosque starting

 8     on page 162 of the formatted records.  Is this a site you visited

 9     yourself?

10        A.   This is a site I visited myself.  At the time I was there it was

11     under reconstruction.

12        Q.   And this picture we see a date, February 1993.  What stage of --

13     what damage level would you say is reflected here?

14        A.   I would call this almost destroyed.

15        Q.   And then if we could turn to the next slide, please.  What do we

16     see here?

17        A.   And this is the same building which has again undergone a second

18     phase of destruction.

19             Only one of the little domes is left.  The rest is a field of

20     rubble and the imam's house behind is completely gone.  This is another

21     Council of Europe shot.

22        Q.   Do the stages of destruction of a site like this allow you to

23     draw any conclusions?

24        A.   Well, the conclusion is that whoever did this wanted it to be

25     gone, so they weren't satisfied with the first stage.

Page 17929

 1             MR. TRALDI:  I'd refer Your Honours to adjudicated fact 762 and

 2     the evidence of RM18 and ask that we turn to the next slide beginning on

 3     page 218.

 4        Q.   Is this also a site you visited yourself?

 5        A.   This is a site I visited myself --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly slow down for the sake of the

 7     interpreters please.  Thank you.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.  It's the market mosque in the centre of

 9     Srebrenica.  This particular photo is a composite from the

10     Zoran Petrovic Pirocanac video which is how we have the date.  In the

11     video the camera pans upward and so this was taken by adding together the

12     various frames.  I would draw Your Honours' attention to the three small

13     square windows at the bottom which you will see in subsequent pictures as

14     well.

15             MR. TRALDI:  I would ask that we turn to the next slide.

16             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  This is taken a few days later, on the

17     19th of July, by the Serbian photo journalist, Mr. Djordje Vukoja, who

18     visited Srebrenica that day.  He was told that he had arrived just after

19     the minaret had been blown up and he saw sappers laying the explosives

20     for destroying the mosque itself.  They told him to get out of there.  He

21     took the photo clandestinely from the car.  You can see scattered stone

22     work, the destroyed minaret at left.  At right you can see one of the

23     other Srebrenica mosques, the so-called white mosque, its minaret still

24     intact.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 17930

 1        Q.   What happened to that mosque, sir?

 2        A.   That mosque was almost destroyed sometime between this and the

 3     end of the war.

 4        Q.   If we could go to --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, would you mind to take me back one --

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Sure --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- page where the composite -- I just wanted to have

 8     another look at it.  That is the photograph where the stills from the

 9     video --

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- are put together.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I've one question.  In this composite photograph

14     consisting of various shots from the video, the mosque is not damaged yet

15     in any way at this moment?

16             THE WITNESS:  In no way at all.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because we see only one side.

18             THE WITNESS:  No.  I have other photographs in the formatted

19     entry for this mosque that were taken by DutchBat before the fall of the

20     town and the mosque was fine.

21             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to the next slide and the one after

22     that.

23        Q.   And what do we see here --

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before that, Mr. Traldi --

25             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry.

Page 17931

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- can we see the other one just before this one.

 2             You said what happened to that mosque so --

 3             THE WITNESS:  It --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And I would just like to clarify, which mosque?

 5     The mosque with the minaret which was still intact?

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.  Thank you.

 8             THE WITNESS:  That's the white mosque.  It's the oldest mosque in

 9     Srebrenica.  The market mosque is the one on the left.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And that white mosque was also destroyed --

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes, but it was destroyed after this.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay, thank you very much.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Can we turn to the next slide, please.

14        Q.   What do we see here, sir?

15        A.   On the left is a photograph taken by an Amnesty International

16     team which came visiting Srebrenica in March of 1996.  You can see the

17     blasted minaret, again with that characteristic pattern of spreading out,

18     indicating that there was a blast within.  And the three square windows

19     which were in the basement of the building, and you can see the building

20     is simply gone, it used to be several storeys high.  And the roof has

21     landed on top of the foundation.  And at right is a photo I took during

22     my visit in July of 2002.  The site is empty.  You can see the same

23     building in the background and the ritual deposit of garbage at the site,

24     which is now overgrown.

25        Q.   Why do you call that a ritual deposit of garbage, sir?

Page 17932

 1        A.   Because we are in the centre of Srebrenica, in the main market

 2     square, and the garbage is at the site of the mosque.  It doesn't strike

 3     me as a logical place for a town dump.

 4        Q.   Was that --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, would you mind to take me back to the

 6     previous one as well.  I have the problem that I can't switch from one

 7     page to another.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  So as to compare again.  Let me see, yes.  And the

10     previous one.

11             Could we now go forward again.  And the last one again.

12             Thank you.

13             THE WITNESS:  If it would assist, Your Honour, the formatted

14     entry has additional photographs.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   Was that deposit of rubbish at the site that you were mentioning,

17     was that something you often saw at a site where a mosque used to be?

18        A.   Very often, and I have a list of examples in my report.

19        Q.   And then I'd turn to the last example, the mosque in Novoseoci,

20     the formatted record begins on page 130.  Can you describe for us what we

21     see on the left and right?

22        A.   On the left what you see is a copy of the invitation to the

23     dedication of the mosque which was built in 1990 in place of a mosque

24     that had been destroyed in World War II.  At right is a photo of the site

25     after the war.  You can see there it's gone.

Page 17933

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Can we turn to the next slide.

 2        Q.   Now, you describe this as rubble of the Novoseoci mosque.  Can

 3     you describe for the Bench what your -- what you see in this picture that

 4     you can identify as part of the mosque?

 5        A.   Okay.  Well, first of all, you know that it is material from a

 6     monumental building because you have large dressed stone blocks right at

 7     the centre of the photo.  Below the large square-dressed stone blocks,

 8     you have a fragment of a column, typical of the columns that supported

 9     the interior space underneath the dome.  And you can see other very large

10     pieces of stone everywhere.  This was a rubbish dump and also the site of

11     a mass grave excavation, and the mass grave was found under the tonnes of

12     stonework of the mosque.  The mosque itself was half a dozen kilometres

13     away from the dump site.

14        Q.   Sir, finally, in your research did you identify any mosques which

15     survived the war intact?

16        A.   Not in any of these municipalities.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, that completes my examination.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

19             Mr. Traldi, before we continue, I would have one question seeking

20     clarification on a document which originated from the Committee of the

21     Islamic Community of the municipality of Kljuc.  I have not written down

22     the number, as a matter of fact, but perhaps you could assist.

23             MR. TRALDI:  03120, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have a look at it.

25             And while waiting for that, my question, Mr. Riedlmayer, is about

Page 17934

 1     the, as you said, the calculation of the damage.  You said it was

 2     calculated on the basis of what square metre of house construction would

 3     cost.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you take me to where this is described.  Is it

 6     described as a general -- general --

 7             THE WITNESS:  It's --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- kind of assessment or is it on specific items?

 9     Could you give me some more information about that.

10             THE WITNESS:  My understanding is that the document was

11     originally compiled with a view to raising money for reconstruction

12     purposes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             THE WITNESS:  The costs are mentioned towards the end of the

15     document and they're expressed in terms of square metres.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let me see.  You say to the end of the -- I

17     see --

18             THE WITNESS:  It's part --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- on page 23 -- no, let me see.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Page 21, for instance, Your Honours, in the middle

21     of the page includes the language:

22             The approximate estimate cost for one square metre comes from one

23     amount of marks to another, and so that may be the part you're looking

24     for.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I now see it because reconstruction cost I saw

Page 17935

 1     are mentioned several times in the -- on other pages on specific items

 2     where apparently a similar system was not used.  I was just wondering

 3     where exactly ...

 4             I see the square metres calculations on page 20 and 21.  Now I'm

 5     just trying to find where the -- and under it says the approximate

 6     estimate cost for one square metre comes from 1200 to 1500 marks.  Is

 7     that what you refer to?

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  And basically these are costs for modern

 9     construction, whereas many of these mosques were historic mosques.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because in the report itself I saw and I have

11     had no opportunity to read the whole of the report, I saw some reference

12     to damage calculations, which were sometimes far higher, up to 8- or

13     10.000 Deutschemarks for a square metre as described.  They say it's a

14     mosque of 10 by 10 metres and they say the damage is 400.000, 500.000 --

15             THE WITNESS:  Anyway, their goal was to raise money for

16     reconstruction.  My reference was to the fact that I've been involved in

17     at least one historic reconstruction project in Bosnia and the costs were

18     much higher and I've also been involved in two reconstruction projects in

19     Kosovo involving historic mosques and they were also much higher.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So --

21             THE WITNESS:  The Centre for Islamic Architecture which provided

22     the plans and the amounts --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I stop you for one second.  Higher than what?

24             THE WITNESS:  Meaning much higher than even the high estimate he

25     mentioned.

Page 17936

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You --

 2             THE WITNESS:  I can give you figures.  For example, a historic

 3     mosque in Kosovo I worked at cost more than a quarter million dollars for

 4     repairs and the mosque had not collapsed.  Basically there had been a

 5     fire and the lead on the roof had melted and the masonry needed repairs

 6     and so forth and the minaret needed reconstruction.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And how many square metres was --

 8             THE WITNESS:  I don't remember the exact square metres.  A lot of

 9     the money had to do with the minaret.  The problem was that this -- these

10     are estimates for basically prefabricated minarets and concrete and

11     hollow brick construction.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I started my question with the key square

13     metres to reconstruction costs.

14             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You said here we read 1200 to 1500 marks --

16             THE WITNESS:  Yeah --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I said that elsewhere in the report I saw square

18     metre figures and amounts which would, if divided, would come to far

19     above what is mentioned here.  And then you started comparing your

20     experience, but that was renovation and reparation in -- to some extent,

21     and in total numbers without knowing the square metres, which makes it

22     very difficult for me to --

23             THE WITNESS:  Well, I can give you an idea.  Most mosques in the

24     Balkans are not in excess of 10 by 10 metres.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 17937

 1             THE WITNESS:  You know, some of the brand new monumental mosques

 2     in Sarajevo are larger, the ones that were built after the war, but the

 3     traditional ones are generally quite small.  The great costs come from

 4     traditional materials.  For example, minarets have to be built out of a

 5     very light but strong stone, which only can be sourced from certain

 6     quarries.  It needs specific kinds of craftsmen.  The dome, if it is

 7     covered by lead, costs much more than if you just put on one of these

 8     prefab aluminum covers.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, the only reason I asked it was because I

10     know you have taken me to the end of the report where the low numbers are

11     appearing whereas in the report itself far higher numbers are appearing.

12             THE WITNESS:  Well, I --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I leave it to that.  I explain to you why I asked

14     the question and --

15             THE WITNESS:  Well, I must say, I was not paying a huge amount of

16     attention to the monetary aspects.  I was simply pointing out that

17     historic mosques cost a lot.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for those answers.

19             Mr. Lukic, are you ready to --

20             MR. LUKIC:  I'm ready, but I think we're already for the break.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we are already beyond the time for the break.

22             Mr. Riedlmayer, would you please follow the usher.  You'll be

23     cross-examined by Mr. Lukic after the break.

24             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 17938

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at 25 minutes past 12.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness will be escorted into the courtroom.

 5             Mr. Traldi.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I can inform the Chamber that under a

 7     different ERN we've found a colour version of the same map.  It -- the

 8     file as a JPEG is too large to load into e-court, so we can offer both

 9     the colour version and a disk with the JPEG file on it to the Chamber if

10     either would be of assistance.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that certainly would assist.  Thank you,

12     Mr. Traldi, for having found a solution for this problem.

13             MR. TRALDI:  I should say, Your Honour, as usual it wasn't me

14     that found the solution.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That's true for many of us with responsible tasks in

17     this courtroom.

18             Mr. Lukic, if you're ready you may start your cross-examination.

19             Mr. Riedlmayer, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Lukic.

20     Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Riedlmayer.

23        A.   Good day, Mr. Lukic.

24        Q.   I will be pausing between question and answer so that the

25     interpreters can interpret what we're saying.  First of all, can we see

Page 17939

 1     MFI T2503 [as interpreted] in e-court, please.  This is your report

 2     referring to our case, and we can see the heading of this report which

 3     says:  Destruction of cultural heritage in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 4             You were warned a number of times that this was not the correct

 5     title for your report.  I don't know if you recall having a discussion on

 6     this topic with Judge Antonetti?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And would you agree --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, if you have any practical problem in

10     this courtroom, ask Ms. Stewart to resolve it for you.

11             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13        Q.   This title would mislead any observer who was not professionally

14     involved in this case, i.e., our objection is that this title would

15     indicate that you were dealing with all the cultural monuments that were

16     destroyed in Bosnia and Herzegovina, but actually this is not the case,

17     isn't that so?

18        A.   I would note that there is a subtitle which both limits the

19     geographic area and the scope of the report.  The report was prepared in

20     accordance with the terms of reference that I received and the title in

21     its entirety, not just the main title but the subtitle as well, reflects

22     as best as it can in its brief form what the report covers.  I don't

23     think it's a misdescription.

24        Q.   And from the title you can also see that you did not look into

25     Serb religious facilities that were destroyed; is that correct?

Page 17940

 1        A.   Serb religious facilities were not included in the terms of

 2     reference for which I prepared this report, but I did in fact look into

 3     the destruction of Serb religious facilities.  I took my own

 4     documentation for my own purposes, and I would be happy to share it with

 5     you.

 6        Q.   And for purposes of this report, who was it who decided that you

 7     should not look into the Serb -- rather, to look into just the non-Serb

 8     religious facilities?  Was that your decision or a decision of the

 9     Prosecutor's office?

10        A.   It was the decision of the Prosecutor's office which drew up the

11     terms of reference for the mission.

12        Q.   In your report you did not differentiate between civilian

13     facilities and militarily justified targets; is that correct?

14        A.   What I was describing is religious facilities.  I was not aware

15     that any of them were military facilities.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Was it part of your brief to make a distinction

17     between militarily justifiable facilities and those that were not?

18             THE WITNESS:  It was not.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   How much time did you spend in the field and how many

22     municipalities did you visit at that time?

23        A.   Well, that's a rather complex question because I -- I can tell

24     you the main field survey that I conducted consisted of about a month in

25     the field, but I also went on repeat visits and I also collected

Page 17941

 1     documentation by correspondence.  At the time I did my field survey in

 2     the summer of 2002 in approximately three weeks I visited 19

 3     municipalities.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And just for the record, would you agree that you

 5     don't have any formal education in the field of Islamic architecture; is

 6     that correct?

 7        A.   No, it's not correct.  I have degrees in Islamic studies.  More

 8     importantly, I have nearly 30 years of experience running a documentation

 9     centre for Islamic architecture.  I don't think I am not a -- let me

10     rephrase that.  I have published articles and given lectures on the

11     subject of Islamic architecture.  I think it's fair to say that it is

12     part of my expertise.

13        Q.   My question was a little bit different, that you don't have any

14     formal education.  You never received any kind of diploma in the area of

15     Islamic architecture?

16        A.   That is correct.  My degrees are listed on my curriculum vitae

17     and I'm not by training an art historian; I'm a cultural historian.  I --

18     and on the other hand, in the 30 years since I've worked as director of

19     the documentation centre for Islamic architecture, I've attended courses,

20     lectures, and I have documented Islamic architecture.  So a degree is not

21     the sole prerequisite for knowing something about the subject.

22        Q.   I agree with you, but the question -- the answer to my question

23     would be "yes," and all the explanations that you provided was something

24     that we could have heard from subsequent questions.  But now I would just

25     like to ask you to focus on my questions, please.  My next question is

Page 17942

 1     that you don't have any formal training from -- in the area of Catholic

 2     architecture; is that correct?

 3        A.   No -- I mean it is correct, no, I don't have any.  But I work as

 4     an art documentation specialist and I know something about the history of

 5     architecture, including Catholic architecture and Byzantine Orthodox

 6     architecture.

 7        Q.   In your opinion, what constitutes cultural heritage?

 8        A.   Cultural heritage is the products of the cultural development and

 9     history of peoples, such as works of art, such as architecture, such as

10     manuscripts and other embodiments of cultural production.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, just to -- for the record, this

12     question is answered on page 7, line 23, to page 8, line 5, in much

13     detail.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And the question then was, Mr. Lukic, can you

15     briefly summarise for the Chamber what you view as included within the

16     ambit of cultural heritage ...  and then it was focused on the former

17     Yugoslavia.  So why ask the same question to the witness twice?

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20        Q.   A newly built mosque, would that constitute cultural heritage in

21     your opinion?

22        A.   Yes.  It is, after all, first of all, every mosque was at one

23     point a newly built mosque.  What makes it cultural heritage is its

24     cultural uses and the fact that it expresses artistry, belief, and it

25     plays a cultural role.  Obviously not every mosque is of the same

Page 17943

 1     cultural and historical value, but all religious monuments to one degree

 2     or another, mosques, churches, chapels, are part of cultural heritage.

 3     Culture is a living thing.

 4        Q.   And would that be the principle that you applied when you were

 5     drafting your report?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  In your report, which we can see on our screen and

 8     which you have in front of you marked for identification as P2503, could

 9     you please look at paragraph 4.  This is page 4 in e-court in both

10     versions, the English and the B/C/S.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   In the English version it begins on the previous page,

13     paragraph 4.  In that paragraph you say that in December 2001 the

14     commission was reorganised by a decision of the Presidency of

15     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And since then, the commission has been active

16     in documenting and designating cultural heritage sites for protection.

17     Are the criteria applied by this commission different from those that you

18     applied in your own work?

19        A.   I don't think it's the same criterion.  It's meant for different

20     purposes.  In my report, I describe what a listed monument is.  A subset

21     of the monuments in my report were listed monuments.  The designations by

22     the commission for national monuments are the equivalent of the pre-war

23     designations of listed monuments.

24        Q.   I would briefly like to go back to your relationship with the

25     Prosecution, and you describe this in paragraph 8 of your report in both

Page 17944

 1     versions of the e-court.  It's the same page.  I don't know how it is in

 2     the hard copy.

 3        A.   Yes, I have it in front of me.

 4        Q.   I think it's the same.  In this paragraph at the beginning you

 5     say that the fieldwork in Bosnia and Herzegovina in July 2002 was

 6     supported by the OTP, which set the terms of reference for the mission

 7     and also provided transportation and daily fee and per diem costs.  And

 8     then in the last sentence of the same paragraph you say:

 9             "At no stage in the process did the OTP seek to exert any

10     influence or pressure on the author regarding the methodology of this

11     study, its findings, or its conclusions."

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Does this seem logical to you?

14        A.   Entirely --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you've answered the question.

16             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Would you agree that there was no need to exert any influence on

20     you subsequently when the Prosecution did this anyway for its own needs

21     by asking for this study in the first place?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, Mr. Lukic, this question is answered by

23     the previous answer, that there's no illogic in it at all.  Apparently

24     you don't understand what the witness clearly expressed here that what he

25     was to focus on in his research was determined by the Prosecution.  The

Page 17945

 1     witness has explained that, but whilst performing that task that there

 2     was no influence or pressure exerted on him nor on findings nor on

 3     conclusions.  There's no illogic about it in any way.  If you have

 4     questions about conclusions, please put them to the witness, but don't

 5     ask these kind of questions which are -- do not in any way assist the

 6     Chamber, at least the answers.  Please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8        Q.   Did you propose a different approach perhaps to the OTP or did

 9     you just do what was asked of you?

10        A.   I did not set the terms of the mission.  I was given the terms of

11     reference and the only thing I asked is at times for clarification.  But

12     it was not up to me to question why they are sending me or where -- which

13     municipalities they specified.  If you look at my report it says that

14     they named certain municipalities and in the Milosevic trial they also

15     said up to six of my choosing.  So I chose those within each

16     municipality.  It was I who chose the sites to visit, when to visit them,

17     how to examine them, and what conclusions to draw from them.

18        Q.   In paragraph 16, which is on page 8 of both versions, you mention

19     to -- you mention heritage sites.  When were the monuments or the

20     facilities that you studied designated as heritage sites?

21        A.   I think I explain in my report what I consider to be a heritage

22     site.  I don't think they need to be specially designated as such by an

23     outside party.

24        Q.   So you designated all of these facilities as heritage sites, not

25     someone else?

Page 17946

 1        A.   No.  It's not that I designated them in any formal sense.  I

 2     simply had criteria for what I would include and what I would not

 3     include, and I think I've described what those criteria are.

 4        Q.   I would kindly like to ask for your assistance.  Was it some

 5     other body, other than yourself, designate these facilities as heritage

 6     sites or did you, yourself, determine what heritage sites were involved?

 7        A.   I worked from my understanding of what constitutes cultural and

 8     religious heritage and went from there.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  In some of your studies you also talked about the

10     national library in Sarajevo.  You would agree that the national library

11     in Sarajevo is not an Islamic monument; right?

12        A.   No, but it is a cultural monument.

13        Q.   Have you heard that actually it was set on fire by the Muslim

14     paramilitaries, specifically Celo's combatants?

15        A.   That's not my understanding of what happened.  For my first

16     expert report for the Tribunal, I investigated as much as I could

17     first-hand accounts, including those of people who were in the building

18     at the time, journalists, firefighters.  This did not happen at some

19     isolated place.  It was in the middle of a large city.  Both the attack

20     on the library and the fire were observed by many people.  The evidence

21     is on deposit with the Tribunal.  I don't think I -- it would necessarily

22     assist this Chamber for me to review it.  I would, however, point out

23     that I presented the same material before the

24     International Court of Justice which in one of its very few original

25     findings of fact concluded -- made conclusions as to the responsibility,

Page 17947

 1     namely, that it was more likely than not that the library was destroyed

 2     as a result of an attack by Serb forces.  You can refer to the ICJ's

 3     judgement for the relevant paragraphs.

 4        Q.   We'll come to your testimony before the

 5     International Court of Justice at a later stage.  Today you mentioned 900

 6     mosques and in paragraph 35, which is page 16 in both versions, you say

 7     that of the 36 mosques that had been officially designated as listed

 8     monuments before the war, therefore, you had information which was

 9     actually a heritage site and what was not.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, may I ask you, you have put a few

11     questions to the witness about who designated.  Shall we make a clear

12     distinction between what the witness was tasked with and where he

13     describes what outside agencies have designated certain monuments as

14     official designation as such.  I think what the witness did is he never

15     denied that this may have been done by outside agencies, but that his

16     work was not guided primarily by that.  That's how I understood your

17     testimony until now.  It seems - but I -- perhaps I first seek

18     confirmation from the witness.  Have I understood your testimony in this

19     respect?

20             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you are mixing up all these things in your

22     questions by saying:  Therefore, you had information which was actually a

23     heritage site and what was not.  We have two different categories.  The

24     one is where the witness himself on the basis of his own understanding of

25     what a heritage site is performed his task, and the other one is whether

Page 17948

 1     agencies deal with protection, et cetera, and it has been mixed up

 2     before.  And that's different category.  Would you please clearly

 3     distinguish between the two?  Please proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I am challenging the methodology applied by this

 5     witness and that's exactly --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you think you're doing, then I'm afraid at

 7     least this Chamber is not understanding what you're doing.  These are two

 8     different things.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  There is a title of this document:  Destruction of

10     cultural heritage --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

12             MR. LUKIC:  -- in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and we want to show

13     that work of this gentleman and the title are wrong.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the title should be understood in the context

15     of the report.  If the report is wrong, take us to areas where the

16     witness draws conclusions where you say for this and this reason it's not

17     right, instead of staying at a kind of an abstract level and saying:

18     Well, what did you consider to be heritage site?  But others have decided

19     in a different way.  That is not a flaw in the methodology, but that's

20     just two different animals.  Please proceed.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Let me briefly add "listed documents" are not

22     identical with "cultural heritage."  They are two different words for two

23     different things.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, I noticed this problem in all trials

25     this gentleman testified and it was raised every time --

Page 17949

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That doesn't justify do it again.  There should be a

 2     proper basis for it.  Please proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I think the proper basis [overlapping speakers] --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I would invite you to --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- put the next question to the witness.  And as --

 7     and to follow the guidance that where there are two different animals,

 8     don't make them one.  Please proceed.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10        Q.   In your report you did not accept the classification that you

11     yourself quoted in paragraph 35; is that correct?

12        A.   I think we're still on the same subject.  I dealt with cultural

13     heritage at large, not just the monuments which had been designated for

14     special protection.

15        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 39 and today in examination-in-chief you

16     spoke about the damage caused by explosives.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   The conclusions relating to the explosions, are these your own

19     conclusions or were they drawn up by an explosive expert?

20        A.   No, these were my own conclusions.  I did not draw upon a

21     consultant.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Let us check once again that you are not an expert in

23     explosive and you have no training in that area; is that correct?

24        A.   I am neither a munitions expert nor am I a military expert.

25     However, I would say that having looked at close to a thousand

Page 17950

 1     war-damaged buildings in the former Yugoslavia and applying simple common

 2     sense criteria, I have some basis for drawing the limited kinds of

 3     conclusions I did.  Nowhere in my report do I seek to distinguish between

 4     different types of explosives or between different kinds of munitions

 5     even.  I talk about a blast having occurred.  If you look at a building

 6     and they -- there is -- there are effects, such as stonework being thrown

 7     at some distance from the site or what I showed with respect to minarets

 8     with the force of an explosion bending steel rods or splitting the

 9     minaret, I think these are all effects that any rational person who has

10     looked at a lot of these could conclude without either technical training

11     or applying technical tests.  I know something about the structure of

12     buildings and how they react to various kinds of forces.  For that, I

13     don't need to be a structural engineer.

14        Q.   In this same paragraph 39, you say in the last sense that:

15             "In a number of towns, including Bijeljina, Foca, Kljuc,

16     Kotor Varos, Prijedor, Rogatica, Sanski Most, Srebrenica, and others, the

17     destruction of mosques and other Islamic heritage sites took place after

18     the area had come under the control of the Serb forces at times when

19     there was no military action in the immediate vicinity."

20             What was the basis for this conclusion that you have reached?

21     What was the source of your information there?

22        A.   Well, in my report I took great care to try to establish, to the

23     extent possible, the date when destruction occurred, the date when

24     military action happened.  When particular towns changed hands are a

25     matter of public record.  There are books where you can look these up.

Page 17951

 1     Among the examples you mention are -- is, for example, Bijeljina.  I

 2     don't think any reasonable person would conclude that in the spring of

 3     1993 when the five mosques in the town of Bijeljina were blown up, that

 4     there was military activity or that Bijeljina was not under the control

 5     of Serb forces.  Similarly, the example shown in the slide show of

 6     Srebrenica.  I took great care to try to establish when the market mosque

 7     was destroyed.  At the time when it was destroyed, Srebrenica had been

 8     taken by the VRS.  I don't think there is any question that at the time

 9     of the destruction Srebrenica was under VRS control.

10        Q.   Thank you.  In the next paragraph, 40, you say:

11             "Destruction of Islamic religious monuments in

12     Bosnia and Herzegovina occurred throughout the 1992-1995 war.  The great

13     majority of the destruction of Islamic sites documented in the survey is

14     reported to have taken place during the spring and summer of 1992."

15             And then again you give the examples of Bijeljina and Srebrenica.

16     However, as far as other sites are concerned, is it true that most of

17     them were destroyed in the spring and summer of 1992?

18        A.   It's what my report states.

19        Q.   Is it true that in Foca, Kljuc, Kotor Varos, Prijedor, Rogatica,

20     Sanski Most, there was fighting in the spring and summer of 1992?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   In your report paragraph 43 and you also made reference to it

23     today when you said that the destruction of religious monuments appears

24     to have been aimed to eradicate the existence of Muslims.  And then in

25     the next paragraph you mentioned the name of Milan Tupajic, the war time

Page 17952

 1     chief of the Crisis Staff.  You located this statement of Tupajic in a

 2     newspaper; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes -- no, actually, the Tupajic statement comes from a

 4     transcript in the Krajisnik trial.

 5        Q.   [In English] Okay.  My mistake.  Sorry.

 6             [Interpretation] So in your report you relied on a text written

 7     by Tim Judah.  In this text, as you may recall, people actually said that

 8     the intentions were quite opposite and they said that they intend to stay

 9     particularly because of the mosques.  Do you remember that?

10        A.   It's what the title of the article indicates, that people were

11     saying that in defiance or that lovely Bosnian word "inat" they would

12     stay on.  In fact, as we know, the great majority of the Muslim

13     population of Banja Luka did not stay despite the bravado.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- Mr. Lukic, could I just seek clarification of

15     your question.  The first was you asked about the quote of Tupajic, that

16     was then clear where it came from.  And then you said, "In your report

17     you relied on a text written by Tim Judah," I take this to be a reference

18     to footnote 24, paragraph 45:

19             "In this text, as you may recall, people actually said that the

20     intentions were quite opposite and they said that they intend to stay

21     particularly because of the mosques."

22             Could you perhaps clarify with the witness how the second quote

23     demonstrates that the intentions were opposite.  I do understand your

24     quote from paragraph 44 to be what Mr. Tupajic said they intended and I

25     understand the quote in paragraph 45 to say what the response to the

Page 17953

 1     actions was.  So therefore, I have difficulties in understanding how the

 2     quote in 45 would in any way demonstrate a different intention.  Could

 3     you perhaps clarify this by putting questions to the witness, but it's

 4     totally unclear to me.  Please proceed.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  We can see 65 ter number 28800 in the e-court, so

 6     maybe it would be more clear then.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we'll have a look at it.  But from what

 8     you've drawn our attention to it does not appear in my view.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Speaking about Tupajic's intentions or those of other

11     representatives of the authorities in Republika Srpska, we can see that

12     at the beginning of the second paragraph on the right, and I'm going to

13     read:

14             "A quarter of a mile away the diggers have almost finished their

15     work.  The Arnaudija mosque, built in 1584, has been completely razed.

16     Ten minutes' walk from there stand the charred struts that once supported

17     the minaret of the small Pobrdje mosque.  'They set it on fire two weeks

18     ago,' said a Muslim community official too frightened to give his name.

19     'The fire brigade came and put it out, and then they set it on fire

20     again.'"

21             Do you know who "they" are in this text who are acting contrary

22     to what the authorities are doing, that is to say sending the fire

23     brigade to extinguish the fire?

24             MR. TRALDI:  Your -- Your Honour, I think I'd object.  There's a

25     fact not in evidence.  There's no showing that the fire brigade is an

Page 17954

 1     official fire brigade or that any particular authority sent it.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Now in itself to make a fact not yet established

 3     part of your question in cross-examination is not under all circumstances

 4     prohibited.  But, Mr. Lukic, if you could break down your question and

 5     make clear where you refer to authorities whether the witness has any

 6     knowledge about whether it was authorities or what is the basis for it.

 7     Please proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Our understanding that fire brigade is not just

 9     cruising around and extinguishing fires --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, ask the witness -- ask the witness how --

11             MR. LUKIC:  I asked --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You are drawing conclusions as part of your question

13     which should be made explicit before the witness can respond to it.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   All I can ask you, sir, is what I already asked you.  Do you know

16     who this pronoun "they" is referring to?  Who were "they" who set the

17     facility on fire?

18        A.   I have no specific knowledge of this incident.  I was not

19     present.  I can only draw conclusions from the article which I think the

20     Court can do all by itself.  What I can see here is interviews with local

21     people, some of whom are devastated and some of whom are trying to be

22     very brave about it, but in fact there are mosques destroyed.  And we

23     know that people left en masse.  After the war Banja Luka retained less

24     than 5 per cent of its original Muslim population.

25        Q.   Thank you.  But that was not the answer to my question.  Do you

Page 17955

 1     know who set this building on fire or maybe you don't know?

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This question was answered, "I have no specific

 3     knowledge of this incident," was the answer of the witness.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Then I will move on.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Now let's move to paragraph 50 of your report.

 6     Here you speak about the Aladza mosque, that's schedule D5 of the

 7     indictment, and you said that Safet Jahic from the Islamic community

 8     provided information to you with regard to this mosque.  He said that

 9     this mosque was set alight by Serb extremists; is that correct?

10        A.   That is what he said.

11        Q.   Would you agree that Mr. Jahic meant that it was not done by

12     members of the army which at the time was still the JNA?

13        A.   Having spent a day with Mr. Jahic who used the phrase "Serb

14     extremists" whenever he made a statement regarding responsibility, it is

15     my understanding that it was a way of not blaming all Serbs.  It was not

16     a question of whether they were official or unofficial.  It was simply he

17     meant that whoever did this did this on ideological grounds.  I don't

18     think at all he meant to exculpate the authorities.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, we're approximately at the time for a

20     break.  Just to refer, before we take the break, you referred to what

21     Safet Jahic from the Islamic community provided this information.  Where

22     exactly is that to be found?  I'm just --

23             MR. LUKIC:  I can call 1D1330, which is transcript from Krajisnik

24     trial page --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That --

Page 17956

 1             MR. LUKIC:  13301.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine, but you take us to paragraph 50 and you

 3     say your said Safet Jahic -- we have no idea where he said it, what he

 4     said exactly, what the witness said.  But if you say I referred to the

 5     testimony of the witness in the Krajisnik case, then it's clear.

 6             We take the break but we'll invite the witness -- then still we

 7     do not know exactly what was said then.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  We can call it into the e-court --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would like to do that.  Could we just --

10             MR. LUKIC:  I'm just trying to rush a bit.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could the witness be escorted out of the

12     courtroom.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and we'll resume at ten minutes to

15     2.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 1.29 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 1.54 p.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you're on your feet.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour, just to follow-up on the map

20     issue.  We have CDs with colour version of the map on them openable in

21     Microsoft -- openable on a Windows machine.  I should clarify one matter

22     about the CD which is that the ERN on the label is the ERN associated

23     with the map we used in court and the ERN on the file is the ERN

24     associated with the colour version of the map that you'd be opening.  And

25     we can provide them after court to the Senior Legal Officer if that's

Page 17957

 1     [overlapping speakers] --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's okay.  As long as we are able to consult the

 3     material in a legible way, then ...

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             So as I announced before the break we will need one document in

 8     the e-court, it's 1D1330.  It's transcript from Krajisnik trial from

 9     May 23rd, 2005, and we need transcript page 13301 which is page 35 in the

10     e-court.

11             From line 1 and there were quotations marks there as well and I

12     will quote:

13             "'The Aladza mosque, among the most beautiful in all of Bosnia,

14     were blown up by Serb extremists in April 1992.'  And your informant

15     there is Mr. Safet Jahic, of the Islamic community and longtime resident

16     of Foca ..."

17             And then in line 6 we have your answer:

18             "Yes."

19             So this is just the reference for my question, Your Honours, so

20     you know where I found this data.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But the answer was in relation to the question.

22     You left that out.  And the question was, I quote:

23             "At this distance of time, do we have any more information" and

24     then the witness answered "yes."

25             MR. LUKIC:  You're right, Your Honour.

Page 17958

 1             MR. LUKIC:

 2        Q.   Was this information given to you by Mr. Jahic, just for the

 3     record?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And he told you that this mosque was blown up actually in

 6     April 1992; is that right?

 7        A.   Actually, he said that, but there are various dates mentioned for

 8     the destruction of the Aladza mosque, some of them as late as the summer.

 9     My understanding is that many of the mosques in Foca were destroyed, once

10     again, in stages.  Some were burnt and then later on knocked down or

11     blown up.  And it's the only way I can explain the discrepancy.  But the

12     business about extremists being used in this way as a way of avoiding

13     blaming an entire ethnic group is something that was quite common at the

14     time in Bosnia and I asked Mr. Jahic about it and that's -- that was more

15     or less his explanation, that he didn't want to blame all Serbs.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Now I would like to put a question to you that

17     is not directly related to this mosque.  Not directly connected to Foca

18     but that relates to all religious monuments.  Would you agree with me

19     that when you have damage from shelling, that would indicate the army and

20     fighting; but when you have damage from burning and dynamiting, that

21     would indicate more that the perpetrators were civilians?

22        A.   I would agree that shelling is an indication of military

23     activity.  However, I would disagree that the military would have nothing

24     to do, for example, with explosives.  Since you brought up Banja Luka

25     earlier in the cross-examination, I have informant statements that speak

Page 17959

 1     about Bosnian Serb RB sappers being involved in the destruction of the

 2     Ferhadija mosque in Banja Luka.  Sappers are people who know how to deal

 3     with explosives.  Not everybody does.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I might just ask clarification on part of the

 5     question that came from Mr. Lukic.

 6             Would shelling necessarily mean fighting?  That was part of his

 7     question, shelling would mean fighting?

 8             THE WITNESS:  Not necessarily.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Thank you.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   When we're talking about planting explosives or setting fires,

12     would that rule out civilians and their participation?  In other words,

13     you could not really tell with certainty whether something like that was

14     done by the army or by civilians?

15        A.   In the absence of other information, no.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was a bit -- yes.  So you could not

17     rule that out?  Because the question first asked for a different answer

18     than the second part of the question, Mr. Lukic.  The first part is then:

19     You couldn't rule out civilians and in the positive sense without any

20     further information you couldn't say that it was military?

21             THE WITNESS:  And the answer in both cases is no.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

23             Please proceed.

24             Well, I'm a bit -- if you say you could not really tell, then the

25     answer would be yes?  Yes, I'm trying to [overlapping speakers] --

Page 17960

 1             THE WITNESS:  I couldn't rule out civilians and in the absence of

 2     other information I couldn't rule out the military either.  I --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No, you could also not positively establish that it

 4     was the military?

 5             THE WITNESS:  Exactly.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it's clear now to everyone.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you for your help, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] But all in all you did not really get into who

 9     the perpetrators were; is that right?

10        A.   It was not my task as I saw it to establish responsibility.  I

11     think properly that is the task of the Chamber.  I was able to bring up

12     evidence such as how -- describing how the building was damaged, when it

13     happened, and in the cases where I had informant statements, I simply

14     reproduced them, but they don't necessarily represent my conclusions as

15     to responsibility.  I think responsibility is for the Judges to

16     establish.

17        Q.   Thank you for that answer.  However, in your study you said that

18     it was all part of a plan.  My question is that this does not mean that

19     you saw any document that would confirm this allegations of yours.  Is

20     that correct?

21        A.   No -- I'm sorry, I -- this is again one of those questions where

22     yes and no are tricky.  I did not actually see any document that, you

23     know --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Sets out such a plan --

25             THE WITNESS:  Right.

Page 17961

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that the -- please proceed.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  A plan to do what, Mr. Lukic?  I don't know.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  This witness in his document is claiming that there

 4     was a plan on destruction of religious --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Plan by whom to do what?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  -- facilities.  A plan -- I can ask the witness what

 7     he wanted to say.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us what's the plan and why do you think that it's

 9     part of the plan?

10        A.   Could you point to where in my report I said anything about

11     plans?

12        Q.   Actually, I'm trying to locate -- I cannot say from the top of my

13     head.  We'll have one short part tomorrow morning so we'll come back to

14     this issue.

15             MR. LUKIC:  If you agree, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I do agree.  At the same time if you put a question

17     so clearly referring to what is said in the report, you should have

18     prepared for that.  But if you've done that by tomorrow, that's -- that's

19     okay.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Would you agree with me that religious

22     facilities or monuments were not very well maintained during the rule of

23     the communist party of Yugoslavia?

24        A.   That is correct.

25        Q.   I would just briefly like to touch upon paragraph 50 of your

Page 17962

 1     study.  We're still on document P2503, MFI, and the church in Brisevo is

 2     discussed.  It's on page 22 --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  E-court in paragraph 57.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Fifty-seven.  Yes.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   On this topic in the trial in the case against Vojislav Seselj

 7     you had a long discussion and Judge Antonetti asked you if today you

 8     would remain by your assertion that the church in Brisevo was destroyed

 9     by Seselj's paramilitary units?

10        A.   I don't recall the exact circumstances of that.  You'd have to

11     bring up the transcript.  I think what I was asserting, and which the

12     defendant objected to, is that I found graffiti inside the burned-out

13     church that consisted of his name.  I did not say that it was necessarily

14     an indication that it was done by his forces.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we see the beginning of paragraph 57,

16     please.  Thank you.

17             MR. TRALDI:  And just in case it would assist, we've got the

18     database entry for this site available in Sanction.

19             MR. LUKIC:  And I would like to have 1D1331 in the e-court.  It's

20     transcript from Seselj trial.  We need page 55 in the e-court.  It should

21     correspond to page 7446 of the transcript from the Seselj trial.  From

22     line 3 I will quote.

23        Q.   Judge Antonetti asks you from line 5, I quote:

24             "Witness, before you were asked to draft your report, which I

25     remind you that the expert is unbiased, you draft a text,

Page 17963

 1     22 December 2004, in which, without adding too many niceties, you say the

 2     paramilitaries -- you mention the paramilitaries of Mr. Seselj, the

 3     cleaning of Brisevo, and anybody who reads this text can see that the

 4     person responsible is Mr. Seselj, and that is -- in fact, you add,

 5     'awaiting trial in The Hague,' so you indicate there is a case -- a

 6     lawsuit in The Hague, and after that you accept to become an expert.

 7     Can't you see any problem in this?"

 8             And then from line 24 Judge Antonetti goes:

 9             "In the text of 2004, what allows you to say that Seselj's

10     paramilitaries cleansed or cleaned --" then we need the next page, "what

11     did you base yourself to reach such conclusions?

12             "THE WITNESS:  Various materials.  Again, this is not a formal

13     conclusion, it's an informal text, but it also emerges from having read

14     reports on what happened in Brisevo.  Again, it's not a legal document in

15     the sense that I footnoted anything or, you know, put in elaborate

16     sources.  What suggested to me to include that phrase is the information

17     in reports on the destruction of Brisevo and the fact that there were

18     graffiti inside the destroyed church."

19             [Interpretation] So the question is:  Could it be concluded from

20     your testimony then that you asserted that the paramilitaries that were

21     part of Seselj's forces were responsible for this mosque?

22        A.   It was a church.

23        Q.   Sorry, yeah, Brisevo was a Croat village.  Yes.

24        A.   So your question is that I asserted that in court or -- I did not

25     assert that in court.  What this is referring to is not my expert report,

Page 17964

 1     but a blog posting from 2004.  A friend asked me to provide him with some

 2     pictures and I provided him with some pictures.  It's -- you know, what

 3     suggested it at the time was the presence of the graffiti and at that

 4     time I had not been asked to write any report on the Seselj case.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I might just get clarification.

 6             Mr. Riedlmayer, what Mr. Lukic quoted to you was what was said by

 7     Judge Antonetti to you in court.  Do you have anywhere in your reports or

 8     your writings where you stated what Judge Antonetti attributes to you?

 9             THE WITNESS:  So --

10             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, if I might just for clarity, a couple

11     pages earlier in the transcript this discussion begins with the

12     discussion of a blog post which I think the witness was just referring

13     to.  And there's a little bit more context about what's in the post at

14     that point in the transcript.  We can try to pull that document up before

15     tomorrow's session.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Because it goes on many pages so I --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's fine.  But, first of all, Mr. Traldi

18     explains that we could look at it tomorrow.  At the same time, I would

19     try to avoid to evaluate the evidence in other cases and I would also

20     like to make a clear distinction, although you're still fully entitled,

21     Mr. Lukic, to ask questions about these kind of things, but we should

22     make a clear distinction when someone expresses opinions not primarily as

23     an expert but just as a newspaper reader or whatever.  Again, it may be

24     relevant for the case, but we should clearly distinguish between that

25     kind of expressions and what is found in an expert report.  And again

Page 17965

 1     preferably an expert report which is tendered as evidence in this case

 2     and not in another case.  So if we could keep that in mind, we'll

 3     continue tomorrow.

 4             Before we adjourn, Mr. Lukic, could you tell us how much time you

 5     would still need approximately tomorrow?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I think I will stick to my time estimate.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Which was two and a half --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Two hours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Two hours.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll check with the Registrar.

12             MR. LUKIC:  I'll finish within the first session tomorrow

13     morning.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Riedlmayer, I'd like to instruct you that

15     you should not speak or communicate in whatever way with whomever about

16     your testimony, whether that's testimony given today or testimony still

17     to be given tomorrow.  And we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at

18     9.30 and I am hesitant to say in this same courtroom.  Although we are

19     scheduled in the same courtroom the Chamber wondered why -- oh, I see

20     that we have been rescheduled now to Courtroom I.  So we'd like to see

21     you back in another courtroom tomorrow morning, Courtroom I, 9.30.  You

22     may follow the usher.

23             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 17966

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and we will resume tomorrow,

 2     Thursday, the 17th of October, at 9.30 in Courtroom I.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day of

 5                           October, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.