1 Tuesday, 20 May 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 There are no preliminaries reported to the Chamber, which means
12 that we could start hearing the evidence of the next witness.
13 And the next witness to be called, Mr. Lukic, would be?
14 MR. LUKIC: The next witness, Your Honours -- good morning, first
15 of all, would be Mr. Trapara, Predrag.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then could the witness be escorted into the
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Trapara.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: From your answer, I take it you can understand me.
22 Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn
23 declaration. The text is now handed out to you. May I invite you to
24 make that solemn declaration.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 WITNESS: PREDRAG TRAPARA
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Trapara.
5 Mr. Trapara, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic is
6 counsel for Mr. Mladic and you'll find him to your right.
7 Mr. Lukic, you may proceed -- yes, to your left, to my right. I
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Trapara.
12 A. Good morning, Mr. Branko.
13 Q. Can you please tell us your name for the transcript, please.
14 A. My name is Predrag Trapara.
15 Q. Did you provide a statement for General Mladic's Defence?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D1613 in e-court,
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: What's the ID number again, Mr. Lukic?
20 MR. LUKIC: 1D1613.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Is this your signature on the first page, sir?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the last page of the
24 document, please, in e-court.
25 Q. And is this your signature on the last page, please, sir?
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 5, please.
3 In both versions we need to look at paragraph 24.
4 Q. Do you remember warning me that this paragraph is incorrect and
5 that corrections need to be made?
6 A. Yes, I do remember that.
7 Q. I'm now going to read how the paragraph should go and then you
8 can tell me if that version is correct. I'm going to be reading in
9 English so that it can be recorded properly in the transcript and you can
10 listen to the B/C/S interpretation.
11 [In English] Paragraph 24, I quote:
12 "The gas supply originated in Zvornik. The town of Sarajevo had
13 gas. I know this because we had gas at the front lines which our
14 soldiers used for heating. The water-supply to the town was not cut. It
15 was not at all possible for Dobrinja 2 and 3 not to have any water
16 because Dobrinja 1 and 4 which were under our control received
17 water-supply through Dobrinja 2 and 3. The central reservoir supplying
18 all the neighbourhoods in Sarajevo was located on Mojmilo hill, which was
19 in Muslim hands."
20 [Interpretation] Does what I have just read accord with how it
21 really was?
22 A. Yes, it does.
23 Q. Thank you. The corrected version of the statement, does that now
24 reflect accurately your testimony?
25 A. Yes, it does.
1 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you
2 answer in the same way as is recorded in the statement?
3 A. Yes, I would.
4 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, I want to offer this statement 1D1613
5 into evidence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1613 receives number D459,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: D459 is admitted into evidence.
10 You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 With your leave, I would read a short statement of this witness
13 for the public.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Short?
15 MR. LUKIC: Short.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
17 MR. LUKIC: It was longer yesterday, but after the warning you
18 gave to my colleague Stojanovic, I shortened it down.
19 Mr. Shin wants --
20 MR. SHIN: Yeah, I'm sorry. Just a very minor point. I'm sorry
21 to interrupt, but I believe my colleague said it's a short statement,
22 it's a summary, and perhaps that difference should be clearer.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is a short summary of the statement.
24 MR. LUKIC: Short summary.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. I take it the witness has been
1 explained the purpose of this so that the audience would know what your
2 testimony is about.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 [Interpretation] Predrag Trapara lived in Lukavica, a Sarajevo
6 neighbourhood. He was the commander of the 5th Company of the 2nd
7 Infantry Battalion of the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade, komandir.
8 Quite some time before the war began in Bosnia and Herzegovina in
9 September 1991, he saw Juka Prazina with members of his paramilitary
10 group openly carrying weapons at Mojmilo Brdo hill.
11 During the war his company was in contact with the 2nd Battalion
12 of the 101st Mountain Brigade of the B&H army 1st Corps. At that time he
13 knew that the opposing forces used 82-millimetre mortars as well as
14 infantry weapons. These mortars were located in the civilian area of
15 Sarajevo that was called Aneks. Throughout the war in the Sarajevo
16 front, in the Sarajevo theatre, his unit carried out exclusively
17 defensive actions. The line of separation between the warring parties
18 was set in such a way that Serbs and Muslims came out in front of their
19 own houses and dug themselves in.
20 During the whole war, his company never carried out any
21 offensives against Muslim positions for the purpose of capturing
22 territory. During the entire war, the lines stayed exactly the way they
23 were set at the beginning of the conflict. The bulk of the Muslim forces
24 at that area was constituted by a large number of snipers. Serb
25 positions and civilians were exposed to sniper fire practically every
2 Predrag Trapara and his unit had information that the Muslim side
3 misused civilian buildings for military purposes, namely, that they were
4 firing from there at Serb positions or placed their staffs and commands
5 there. The witness stated that his unit never opened fire in the depth
6 of enemy territory but only at trenches and buildings where enemy
7 soldiers were located. He's sure that at that time there were no
8 civilians living in the buildings from which the B&H army was firing
9 from. He never issued an order nor received an order to terrorise
10 civilians in the city of Sarajevo or to inflict civilian casualties on
11 the enemy. Quite the contrary, the superior command always sent orders
12 to them that they should fire exclusively at enemy military targets.
13 Mr. Trapara also stated that there were many civilian casualties
14 on the Serbian side as a result of fire from B&H army members and that in
15 the deployment area of his unit a lot of damage was inflicted on civilian
16 facilities by that same fire. In February 1994, his mother was wounded
17 in front of their house. She was wounded by rifle fire and both her
18 bones below the knee were broken and to this day she has to use crutches.
19 His father was also wounded by B&H army shelling as a result of
20 which he lost his leg and his spleen was destroyed -- his liver was
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And soon he died because of the
24 severity of his injuries. Members of his unit were locals, inhabitants
25 of that neighbourhood. Convoys carrying humanitarian aid would pass
1 through the territory where his unit was deployed and not a single one
2 was ever prevented from passing through. There were instances of misuse
3 of humanitarian aid by international forces. He recalls that on one
4 occasion the military police discovered seven rifles in a humanitarian
5 aid shipment intended for the Muslim part of town. Muslim units that
6 were facing his unit frequently violated cease-fires. During each
7 cease-fire, Muslim forces would intensify their works on digging
8 trenches, and in that way they would be coming ever closer to Serb
9 positions. Usually these works were carried out by Serbian civilians who
10 were forced to do so. These were Serbian civilians who had remained in
11 the Muslim part of the city.
12 Having read the summary of the witness's statement, I would like
13 to ask Mr. Trapara a few questions.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, perhaps for the next witness -- it was
15 shorter. It still is not short. I mean, the 65 ter summary more or less
16 would do. It's still two pages or even a little bit more on the
17 transcript, too many details. So as you could keep that in mind for the
18 next witness.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. Mr. Trapara, were your troops surrounded by Muslim forces in
23 A. Well, let me tell you one thing. Part of my unit was facing
24 Sarajevo and behind our backs in the sector from Vojkovici, Krupac,
25 behind Kasindol towards Kijevo, that means Karaula [phoen], Klanac, and
1 Kijevo, that whole area was held by Muslim forces so there were two
2 rings. We had one defence line ahead of us and another defence line
3 behind our backs and that was the situation throughout Sarajevo.
4 Q. Now briefly about humanitarian aid, 1D2025, please, in e-court.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, is it correct that not all the headings
6 in those documents are -- appear in the English translation? For
7 example, if I look at the English, it starts what seems to be the seventh
8 line in the B/C/S. The whole heading is missing.
9 MR. LUKIC: Heading of what, Your Honour?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Of the original. Of course I can read that it's
11 Republika Srpska and then the Presidency or cabinet of the president.
12 And you see, I slowly get more familiar with even the Cyrillic B/C/S
13 text. And then we have the date, the 7th of May, and we have a number
14 and we have -- well, all kind of things which precede the text of the --
15 MR. LUKIC: You can in English here that -- now I can see that
16 the translation is not complete.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please take care that it will be
18 completed and then uploaded again.
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And I do understand that the heading only says that
21 it's the Republika Srpska cabinet of the president --
22 MR. LUKIC: President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- strictly confidential, then a number, then Pale,
24 a date, and then that it is addressed to the headquarters of the Army of
25 Republika Srpska. Is that more or less what it says?
1 MR. LUKIC: That's exactly what it says.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, my staff is perfect in these kind of things.
3 Mr. Shin.
4 MR. SHIN: Yes, Mr. President. We may have found another version
5 of this. I'll leave it to my colleague to -- Mr. Lukic to decide if
6 that's correct, but this may assist, that would be 65 ter 14545, but
7 again I'll leave it to him to see whether this is indeed the document he
8 is referring to.
9 JUDGE ORIE: If that's the case, replacement of the translation
10 would be easier. You may proceed for the time being on the basis of this
11 document, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Thank you to my colleague Shin.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Trapara, here we have the document before
15 us. Would you please look at it, specifically item 3 where the
16 president, Radovan Karadzic, decided to enable undisturbed delivery of
17 humanitarian aid to the areas held by the other side and says:
18 "Effect the delivery of humanitarian aid as efficiently as
19 possible with as little delay as possible and in a fair manner."
20 You have spoken about this in your statement. I would only like
21 to ask you: Was that the policy of both the civilian and the military
22 authorities? What kind of orders did you receive in this connection, to
23 let the convoys pass or not?
24 A. We received orders to let the convoys through, and that we did.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to tender this
1 document to be MFI'd until we change the English translation.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2025 receives number D460,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: D460 is marked for identification.
6 Mr. Lukic, would you also pay specific attention to the
7 translation of the fourth item in this decision which ends by:
8 " ... and concrete actions establish by negotiations."
9 I could imagine that it should read: "Established by
10 negotiations," so at least it's unclear at this moment what it exactly
12 Please proceed.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put a question to the witness in relation
14 to this document?
15 Sir, if you look at item 1 of the decision in front of you, I
16 read there and I quote:
17 "Stop immediately with all military offensive activities ..."
18 How do I have to understand this? Which kind of military
19 offensive activities is this referring to?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Military offensive activities,
21 maybe this pertains to another area of the theatre of war. The
22 Main Staff is mentioned. Where I was on my defence line there was a kind
23 of truce. Maybe this passage pertains to a broader area of our military
24 zone. While there were any combat activities, I didn't know or receive a
25 document of this kind. My unit never had a document of this kind. I
1 believe this document was sent to units at higher levels, such as brigade
2 and corps.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But to stop offensive activities means that there
4 have been, in fact, offensive activities. When I read your statement, I
5 form the impression that there were no offensive activities by the VRS
6 with respect to Sarajevo. This strikes me. Can you comment on that?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will try. I do not contest that
8 there were offensive activities but in some other sector, in some other
9 part of the BH. In the sector that I controlled with my unit, there were
10 no offensive activities.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps this is an order -- I'm
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, please continue your sentence you have just
15 started. Perhaps this is an order ... What kind of an order is it?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps this was an order for the
17 entire Main Staff, maybe in some area there were offensive activities at
18 this moment and this order says they should be stopped, whereas at the
19 confrontation line held by my unit there were none, at least if we look
20 at this date here.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I have one additional question as well. Do I
23 understand from your answers that you have no knowledge of this order and
24 the details of its content such as what kind of negotiations may have
25 taken place? You see it for the first time, is that -- or have you seen
1 it before, in what context?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have seen this order before, but
3 I didn't see it at the time when it was written. And my unit was not at
4 such a level that I would have been able to know what kind of
5 negotiations were involved. I simply received orders from my own
6 superior command, which was the battalion command, to let the convoys
7 with humanitarian aid pass unhindered.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You've told us that. Who has shown you this
9 document for the first time, when you saw it for the first time? Who
10 gave it to you to read?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I first saw this document in 2012.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And given to you by whom?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was the Defence team of
14 Mr. Karadzic.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a further question arising from your
18 answer. You say you first saw this document in 2012. Do I have to
19 understand that you had no knowledge of these orders during the war?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you couldn't have acted according to this
22 order because you didn't have this order?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my statement it is written --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, I stop you there. Yes or no, you couldn't
25 have acted according to this order because you didn't have this order
1 during the war, yes or no?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I acted upon the order to let the
3 convoys through. I didn't know about this specific order.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 You may proceed.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Q. The orders that you received from your superior command, were
8 they consistent with this decision of President Karadzic?
9 A. I believe so.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we would need 65 ter 15340.
12 Q. We see the document from the Main Staff of the Army of
13 Republika Srpska dated 11 March 1995. It reports about the situation on
14 the front, and now we need to see the second page in B/C/S and the second
15 page in English. Let's focus on item 3. As you see, it says:
16 "In the zone of the 1st Smbr, Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade, the
17 enemy fired from infantry weapons and sniper rifles and 60- and
18 82-millimetre mortars. At about 1600 hours, the enemy fired snipers and
19 killed two girls Natasa" and the name is probably Ucur "born in 1986 and
20 Milica Lalovic born in 1984..."
21 Is this last name correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. At that time did you know about this incident?
24 A. Yes, I did. An hour after it happened I found out -- it's not
25 the area of responsibility of my company but it's the area of
1 responsibility of my battalion. So within one hour of the incident I
2 found out by telephone that two girls were killed in Grbavica and we
3 raised our level of combat-readiness immediately. So yes, I was aware of
4 it very quickly after it happened.
5 Q. What did you mean by raising your combat-readiness?
6 A. That means reinforcing the front line and intensifying
7 observation of the enemy because we were anticipating more enemy
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I should like to tender this
12 MR. SHIN: No objection.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 15340 receives number D461,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we perhaps move to the last page with the
18 signature. I see it's signed by Manojlo Milovanovic. Thank you.
19 MR. LUKIC: Are you finished, Your Honour? Thank you.
20 [Interpretation] I would now like to see P2050 briefly in
21 e-court. [In English] It's document in English. I don't think there is
22 translation so we can show it on the whole screen, and we need -- it's a
23 code cable from Yasushi Akashi, UNPROFOR, from 14th of March 1995.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, I see a translation into B/C/S. It's
25 on the screen.
1 MR. LUKIC: Is it there? I couldn't find. [Interpretation] We
2 need item 3, in English it's on page 2, and in B/C/S it's straddling
3 pages 1 and 2, I think. No, in B/C/S it's also on page 2.
4 Q. I'd like to ask you this: At this time, on the 14th March 1995,
5 were Muslim forces launching any offensives in Sarajevo?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. At the time were there any Muslim forces on Mount Igman and on
8 Mount Bjelasnica?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were there any Muslim forces in the demilitarised zone at the
12 A. Yes, that was the greatest problem. Yes. So in 1993 --
13 Q. We're talking about 1995.
14 A. Yes. Between our lines and the Muslim forces there was UNPROFOR,
15 and the Muslim forces used that time of this so-called cease-fire and
16 they entered our territory unhindered by UNPROFOR in any way and they
17 took tens of square kilometres of this demilitarised zone totally
18 unhindered by UNPROFOR.
19 Q. Were there any casualties on the Serb side?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. What do you know about that?
22 A. Well, we know because part of my unit sent help to that area;
23 that is to say, the area of Igman.
24 Q. Because the Muslim forces passed through the demilitarised zone,
25 were there any casualties on the Serb side?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you remember how heavy the losses were?
3 A. Well, I cannot say about the entire front line, the entire
4 separation line. I can tell you about my battalion. Three soldiers were
5 killed at the time, that is -- well, actually it was combat and it was
6 not combat. The Muslim soldiers went through that area and they violated
7 what we had observed, and that is how these unfortunate things happened
8 to our people.
9 Q. Did you notice any arming of the Muslim troops during the war?
10 A. Well, yes, I did. Every day during the war they were more and
11 more armed.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I'd like to briefly show another
14 document, 65 ter 08371. We need page 2 in B/C/S, page 3 in English. We
15 need (c), 2(c), that's towards the end of the page in English and toward
16 the end of the page in B/C/S.
17 Q. This is what is stated here:
18 "The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps," so it's the situation in that
19 corps that is being dealt with. "In the northern part of the Sarajevo
20 front, the enemy began with organised artillery and infantry operations
21 on the area of the Nisici plateau in the early morning hours, focusing on
22 the following directions: Breza-Cemera-Nisici and Olovo-Nisici ..."
23 Do you have any personal knowledge about these attacks of the
24 Muslim forces against the positions of the Army of Republika Srpska?
25 A. I do.
1 Q. So it's the 11th of April, 1994, that's the time-frame.
2 A. At the time in 1994 in the area of Dernek, Korita, Veliki Jasen,
3 Mali Jasen, Polom, Mosevacko Brdo, Stomorina, Vasevici, Nisici plateau,
4 Hajde, Zubeta, Macak, and the village of Krivajevici, so along that
5 entire line there were fierce attacks coming from Breza. Five of our
6 soldiers were killed and then this was one of the stronger attacks coming
7 from Breza. However, our forces repelled this attack and the lines were
8 not broken. I know that throughout 1994 our battalion, including my
9 unit -- well, we called that the Olovo front. All the way up to 1995
10 when those very well-known things happened in Treskavica.
11 Q. When you say very well-known things that happened in Treskavica,
12 it's what we discussed previously; right?
13 A. Yes, because after that there were fierce attacks launched by the
14 Muslim forces all the way up until Dayton was signed. Trnovo was on
16 Q. Were you personally at this part of the front line that is
17 mentioned in this document that is in front of you on the screen?
18 A. Yes, yes. I was there personally, and Obrad Popadic, chief of
19 staff, a friend of mine, he was killed there.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document
21 as well.
22 MR. SHIN: No objection.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 08371 receives number D462,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. I'm just going to put two more questions to you briefly. Did you
4 know Radivoje Avram was -- actually, if you know the man, was his house
5 in the area where your unit was deployed? Was Vojkovici under --
6 A. No, no, no, it wasn't.
7 Q. Thank you. Just tell us one more thing: Did you ever have an
8 opportunity of seeing General Mladic during the war?
9 A. I had two opportunities to see Mr. Mladic, General Mladic. The
10 first time at Vrace when the Army of Republika Srpska was established in
11 May and the second time was on the 12th of July, 1993, at Orlovac, the
12 village of Ilovice, the first defence of Trnovo. The General passed by
13 us, he proffered his hand. He said, "Congratulations, guys, and tomorrow
14 I don't want to see any -- I don't want to see any other insignia on your
15 caps except for the tri-colour." That is what remained in my memory in
16 terms of the General.
17 Q. And what kind of insignia were on the caps in addition to the
19 A. Well, yes at that time -- well, you know, the army is the army so
20 everybody likes some particular insignia. However, when the General
21 passed by us at Orlovac, he personally said this to us and he addressed
22 me. He said, "Tomorrow, I don't want to see any other insignia on caps
23 except for our tri-colour."
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Trapara, that is all I had for you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
1 Before I give an opportunity to cross-examine the witness - we
2 might do that after the break, Mr. Shin - I would have one or two
3 questions for the witness.
4 Mr. Trapara, you told us that humanitarian aid was always allowed
5 through and that even if it was abused. Were there ever circumstances
6 under which you were ordered not to let through humanitarian aid, where
7 it was prohibited for it to pass through?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I tell you, Your Honour, maybe
9 sometimes there were some orders, but I said a moment ago I did not know.
10 Believe me, I always allowed convoys to go in the direction of Grbavica
11 at that. I personally as far as my superior command was concerned, my
12 battalion command, never sent me an order like that to stop a convoy.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Same question for movement of humanitarian
14 organisations, were they ever prohibited to move around freely?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know to the best of my
16 knowledge at that time, no.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Now, sometimes nasty events happened. You referred
18 to the killing of two young girls which is really very nasty that this
19 ever happened in the age of 8, 10 years, innocent children. Did such
20 events not trigger a prohibition of humanitarian aid or a prohibition of
21 movement of humanitarian organisations?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Specifically where we were, no.
23 Most of that, after all, was -- I mean, well, the entire town went
24 through Lukavica, I mean all of the humanitarian aid. On that day when
25 the two little girls were killed, we did not receive an order to stop
1 humanitarian aid convoys.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could I have D461 on the screen, please, page 3 in
3 English. I don't know whether it's also page 3 in B/C/S.
4 Could I invite you to read the paragraph, especially the last
5 sentence of the paragraph II, situation in the territory. I will read it
6 aloud for you.
7 "Due to sniper fire and the death of two girls, any movement of
8 humanitarian organisations and convoys is prohibited until further
10 In view of your testimony, do I have to understand that this
11 order which was so specifically focusing on the death of the two girls
12 never reached you?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, no. According to this
14 document, it seems that I violated an order, but this order did not reach
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
17 Judge Fluegge has one more question for you.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have a question also in relation to the
19 convoys, and I would like to ask that D459 should be brought up on the
20 screen, paragraph 22 in both languages. And I quote from your statement:
21 "Convoys passed through daily and always allowed them to pass
22 into the town. Convoys were searched exclusively by the corps police."
23 And now please focus on the next sentence because I don't
24 understand that. I quote:
25 "Did they ever receive an order to fire on civilians or civilian
1 facilities, he answers that they did not, nor did he ever issue such an
3 How do I have to understand this sentence, especially the "he"?
4 Who is "he"?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, I just don't understand,
6 which paragraph is this?
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's paragraph 22 at the end, the last sentence,
8 in fact.
9 "Did they ever receive an order to fire on civilians or civilian
10 facilities, he answers that they did not, nor did he ever issue such an
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It probably relates to me.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then it's perhaps not properly drafted by the
15 MR. LUKIC: I noticed that, Your Honour, this morning when I was
16 re-reading the statement. Obviously we left in the third person this
17 part of the statement.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that clarification.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then we first take the break and we'll start the
21 cross-examination after the break. We'll resume at ten minutes to 11.00
22 and we'll take the break once the witness has been escorted out of the
24 [The witness stands down]
25 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into
3 the courtroom.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Trapara, you'll now be cross-examined by
6 Mr. Shin. Mr. Shin is located to your right. Mr. Shin is counsel for
7 the Prosecution.
8 Mr. Shin, please proceed.
9 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Shin:
11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Trapara.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. I'd like to begin with some questions about your unit. Now, you
14 were, as you explain in your statement, in the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised
15 Brigade, 2nd Battalion, 5th Company. This battalion, as you explain
16 also, was originally the 3rd Battalion of the 1st Romanija Brigade and
17 then it became the 2nd Battalion in the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade
18 in May 1993. We have that correct; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, regardless of the name of your unit or the designation it
21 had, your company's zone of responsibility did not change during the war;
22 is that correct?
23 A. Yes, correct.
24 Q. Now, as company commander, you held the rank of captain; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you were a captain throughout the war?
2 A. When the war started, I was a lieutenant.
3 Q. When were you promoted?
4 A. In 1992.
5 Q. Now, as company commander, who was your immediate superior?
6 A. I had three battalion commanders. They changed. I can tell you
7 the order of their names, if you need me to.
8 Q. If you could briefly tell us their names.
9 A. The first commander was Mr. Brane Plakalovic. Very shortly after
10 him, he was wounded, so shortly after him it was Mr. Radomir Stojanovic.
11 He was killed in 1993. And then after that it was Mr. Aleksandar
12 Petrovic who died. From what I know he died in America.
13 Q. Now, Aleksandar Petrovic, he became commander approximately when
14 in 1993?
15 A. In early 1993.
16 Q. Would it be right that the deputy commander for your battalion
17 was Milan Hrvacevic?
18 A. Yes, but at a later stage of the conflict, not right at the
19 beginning but later. Perhaps a year before the conflict ended.
20 Q. So that would be in 1994; is that correct?
21 A. Approximately. Don't expect me to know the exact month, but
22 approximately yes.
23 Q. And the assistant commander for intelligence and security in your
24 battalion was Dragan Maletic; correct?
25 A. Yes, also in the second half, in the second half.
1 Q. Now, where was the 2nd Battalion's command post?
2 A. The 2nd Battalion's command post was located in
3 Banjalucka Street.
4 Q. What neighbourhood was that?
5 A. It was between Grbavica and Vrace where the transit is, above the
6 transit. I'm thinking about the roundabout.
7 Q. Okay. We'll get to that later. Where was the command post for
8 your company?
9 A. My company's command post was in the Lukavica sector,
10 Djukica Potok creek. It was a private house. That belonged to
11 Rajko Tomic.
12 Q. Okay. We may look at a map later where you can show us where
13 that was. Now, the 2nd Battalion had six infantry companies; is that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What other units were attached to this battalion or under it?
17 A. There was a squad or a platoon of 82-millimetre mortars.
18 Q. And we'll get to that shortly as well. Were there any other
19 units in the battalion, apart from that?
20 A. If you're thinking about signals, the logistics units, that's
21 what else there would be more or less.
22 Q. Okay. Now, as an infantry officer, as a captain, would it be
23 correct that you also knew which units were part of the 1st Sarajevo
24 Mechanised Brigade? In other words, above the level of the battalion?
25 A. Up to a point, yes.
1 Q. Well, let me ask you, for example, in addition to infantry
2 battalions such as the one that you belonged to, the 1st Sarajevo
3 Mechanised Brigade also had a mixed artillery division; isn't that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It also had an armoured battalion; isn't that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you tell us what other components of the 1st Sarajevo
8 Mechanised Brigade you can recall?
9 A. It had a logistics battalion, a signals company, engineers
10 company, another armoured battalion, military police, and what you
11 mentioned, that would be that and also the brigade command.
12 Q. Okay. Just so we're clear here, there were then two armoured
13 battalions; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, I'd like to focus on your company. Now, in your company you
16 had some 100 to 180 men; is that right?
17 A. The second number would refer to people who were in the company
18 at some point but then went elsewhere. A lot of people came through the
19 company, but the actual number would be approximately 130 men.
20 Q. And these men were organised in four platoons?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. As company commander you issued orders to your platoon
23 commanders; that's simply a fundamental principle of command and control.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And they followed your orders; that's how command and control
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And did -- if they had acted outside your orders or in violation
5 of your orders, as their leader you would have had to take corrective
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, regarding the levels of command above you, you've previously
9 testified in the Dragomir Milosevic case that during your time -- during
10 the time that you served with the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the corps had
11 a functioning chain of command, from the corps to the brigade to
12 battalion levels. So again, the levels above your command, the chain of
13 function -- the chain of command functioned; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. As company commander, now, you were responsible for the safety of
16 your men, among other things; isn't that correct?
17 A. Yes, I was.
18 Q. In the military a component of ensuring the safety of your men as
19 a commander is having situational awareness; that is, knowing the
20 situation in the field, in particular regarding your enemy and regarding
21 your own forces?
22 A. If there was information about the enemy.
23 Q. But otherwise, you accept what I said?
24 A. I do, yes.
25 Q. Your men, in fact, rely on you as their commander to have this
1 kind of situational awareness; that's part of maintaining their safety?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, let's turn to a map that you've seen before.
4 MR. SHIN: Can I please have 65 ter 1D02064 on the screen.
5 Q. Mr. Trapara, you recognise this as a map that you have previously
6 seen that was tendered as an associated exhibit to your Karadzic
7 testimony -- I'm sorry, to your Karadzic statement. You recognise the
8 map; correct?
9 A. I do, yes.
10 Q. Now, it's in English but do you understand what it says?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, off to the right that red circle with the arrow pointing to
13 it, that shows the location of three 82-millimetre mortars on
14 Prljevo Brdo; is that correct?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which circle? Mr. Shin, is that the one in which
16 "Aneks" is written or the other one to the further side?
17 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, it's the small circle to the right.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see it, yes.
20 MR. SHIN:
21 Q. Yes, but that's correct that those -- that's correct that there
22 were three 82-millimetre mortars there, first?
23 A. Yes, it's correct. It's a three 82-millimetre battery that was
24 under the direct command of our battalion.
25 Q. Okay.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Just -- yes, you're pointing at the circle, the
2 thick one, right to 2nd Battalion. Yes, I see it now because part is --
3 it says 3 and half of an M, but it's the lower thick circle.
4 MR. SHIN: Could I please have the court officer simply move the
5 map a little bit over so that we can see clearly what Mr. President is
7 JUDGE ORIE: Now it's clear to me, yes. It's next to where it's
8 written "Turbe" and 3MB, 82-millimetre.
9 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Q. And Mr. Trapara, just in case we lost that there, that location,
11 you understand that to be Prljevo Brdo or Prljevo hill; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now we'll return to this, and you may get some other questions on
14 this map, but I'd like to move --
15 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, Your Honours, first may I tender this?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2064 receives number P6514,
18 Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: P6514 is admitted.
20 MR. SHIN:
21 Q. Mr. Trapara, I'd like to focus on the front line for now and for
22 that I'll turn to a different map that you marked in your testimony in
23 the Dragomir Milosevic case.
24 MR. SHIN: Could I please have 65 ter 30649.
25 Q. Do you recognise this map to be a map that you marked during your
1 testimony in the Dragomir Milosevic trial?
2 A. Yes, yes. I recognise it, yes.
3 Q. Now, I'd like to focus on the red line. That is the line of
4 confrontation; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And just so we have a complete picture here, the blue line is
7 what you intended to be your company's area of responsibility along that
8 line of confrontation?
9 A. The blue line indicates already the line of the B&H army forces
10 that were across from us already. The blue circle was marking the depth
11 of the territory of the 2nd Battalion of the 101st Mountain Brigade of
12 the B&H army.
13 Q. To assist us, could you tell us what stretch of that red line was
14 the area of responsibility of your company?
15 A. The straight blue line, as you look at it, from the left end of
16 the blue line until the end of the blue line and a little bit longer to
17 the place where these two red lines merge.
18 Q. Okay. I think that description can help us orient ourselves on
19 that map.
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Now, you indicated the line of confrontation with that red line
22 because you know this area well; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, would it be right that to the right side of this diagram
25 past the end of the area of responsibility that your company held, there
1 was the 4th Company of your battalion?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And on the other side of that company, which unit held the line?
4 A. The 6th Company.
5 Q. And on the other side of the 6th Company?
6 A. Then it was the 3rd Company all the way to the Zeljeznica club
8 Q. Now, let's turn to the left side of this line. You described in
9 your Milosevic testimony that it went through Dobrinja 4, and indeed we
10 see it extending further south; is that correct?
11 A. What I showed here was the line of separation during the Dayton.
12 While the conflict was still going on, the line was at Dobrinja 4,
13 Dobrinja 1, and then the Staro Sedelaca [phoen] settlement where the red
14 line curves. And then later the line was extended a bit longer towards
15 the Serbian side.
16 MR. SHIN: Okay. Maybe if we could have a pen for the witness.
17 Q. Mr. Trapara, could you please indicate where the confrontation
18 line was during the war in relation to the red line.
19 A. Are we talking about Dobrinja?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin, are you going to invite the witness to
21 mark further with a red pen ?
22 MR. SHIN: We would prefer to have a new colour other than --
23 JUDGE ORIE: A new colour.
24 MR. SHIN: -- yes. Sorry, I should have been clear about that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because if any additional marking is made, it
1 should be clearly distinguished from the already existing blue and red
2 marking. Do we have green for the witness?
3 And then could you please repeat your instruction to the witness,
4 Mr. Shin.
5 MR. SHIN: Yes.
6 Q. Mr. Trapara, once again I'm asking you to indicate where the line
7 of confrontation was during the war in the Dobrinja area.
8 A. I already marked the red line here. During the war the line of
9 confrontation was where I marked it, this red line. We're talking about
10 Dobrinja 1 and Dobrinja 4.
11 Q. Okay. I think we're clear now that that red line actually is the
12 confrontation line during the war and not some other line; correct?
13 A. Correct. That was the confrontation line during the war, the red
15 Q. Now, in your statement you say that the unit to your left was the
16 engineering company of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade. Now, first, by the "1st
17 Sarajevo Brigade," you do mean the same thing as the 1st Sarajevo
18 Mechanised Brigade; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Indeed, that's sometimes the way the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised
21 Brigade was referred to, as the 1st Sarajevo Brigade?
22 A. It was shorter so that's how most people named the brigade.
23 Q. And this engineering company is the one you spoke of as being
24 directly attached to the brigade; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Who was on the other side of the engineering company on the Serb
3 A. The 2nd Battalion of the 101st Mountain Brigade.
4 Q. Perhaps my question was unclear. Among the VRS units, which unit
5 was on the other side of the engineering company?
6 A. I'm sorry, yes. In Dobrinja 4 and Dobrinja 1 there was a part
7 of -- to the left of the engineering company there was a unit comprising
8 soldiers from the 1st Armoured Battalion.
9 Q. Now, Mr. Trapara, you're familiar with this area not only because
10 you were an infantry commander during the war but also because you lived
11 in this area most of your life; is that right?
12 A. I was born here, right here on this line that you are mentioning
13 between the two Dobrinjas. I grew up there.
14 Q. Now, you're familiar with an area called Veljine just to the east
15 of Dobrinja 4; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And there is an Orthodox church there, that's the
18 Vasilije Ostroski church?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. SHIN: I'd like to move to another document. Could I please
21 have P4455. And while that's coming up, could I please tender into
22 evidence this map which is 65 ter 30649.
23 JUDGE ORIE: With or without the additional markings? I see
24 there are two green, there's a 1 and what appears to be a 2 but close to
25 the confrontation line, but the witness spoke about the Dobrinja 4 so I'm
1 a bit confused. But I think we can do without the markings.
2 MR. SHIN: I think we -- yes, absolutely, Mr. President, we can
3 do without the markings because the witness had corrected himself to
4 indicate --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. SHIN: -- that that red line was what we were looking at.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the map as previously marked by the
8 witness with red and blue would receive number?
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30649 receives number P6515,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. SHIN: Could I please have P4455 now on the screen.
14 Q. Now, Mr. Witness, this is a report as you can see from the
15 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command dated 14th of June, 1992. If we look at
16 the back briefly we see it's signed by Commander Colonel Tomislav Sipcic.
17 And turning back to the front page, do you see the heading number 1,
18 Sarajevska Brigada, that's in your language. Now, would that refer to
19 the Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade?
20 A. Probably.
21 Q. Looking down at item number 9 under this first -- under the
22 heading "Sarajevo Brigade," it reads:
23 "1 self-propelled artillery battery from composition of 1st
24 Sarajevo Brigade with one platoon on Veljine (the church), and with the
25 2nd Platoon in village Vranjes."
1 Do you understand this document to mean that there was an
2 artillery battery at the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade that held that
4 A. It says here one squad from the 1st Sarajevo Brigade with one
5 platoon on Veljine at the church and another platoon in the village of
6 Vranjes. So one weak PVO, which means anti-aircraft defence. When I was
7 telling you a moment ago that the zone of responsibility of the 1st PKB
8 was there, I meant people -- men were taken from there and sent as
9 infantry to Dobrinja 1 and 4. And the church at Veljine is just behind
10 Dobrinja 4. Now, looking at this I can only speculate whether
11 infantrymen were sent there to assist the armoured battalion as
12 reinforcement. I don't know --
13 Q. Mr. Witness --
14 A. -- it was just not --
15 Q. -- let me stop you there. I'm not asking you to speculate. Now,
16 the question was simply: This provision right here provides that there
17 is -- that there is a battery from the 1st Sarajevo Brigade with one
18 platoon on Veljine; correct?
19 A. It's not a battalion, no question. It says very explicitly 1
20 weak anti-aircraft defence, self-propelled light artillery battery from
21 the 1st Sarajevo Brigade, that means that they had very few men, and
22 another platoon in the village of Vranjes.
23 Q. Mr. Trapara, my question to you is simply this: That battery,
24 not battalion, that battery was clearly on Veljine? Thank you.
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. SHIN: Now, can I please have 65 ter 30643.
2 And, Your Honours, while we're waiting for that to come up this
3 is a detail from map P3, e-court page 54. Now, if we could zoom in a
4 little bit to the lower half of this map. That would do.
5 Q. Mr. Trapara, you see from right around the middle, right to the
6 left going in a south-westerly direction you see Miljevici; correct?
7 A. I see it.
8 Q. Now, you know this area well. Do you see where Vranjes is?
9 A. I see it.
10 Q. Between that and Dobrinja, that's where Veljine is; isn't that
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, if we zoom in a little bit more on the lower half of this,
14 you see almost --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin.
16 MR. SHIN: Yes, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- apparently the witness has found
18 Vranjes, I not -- yes, I see it. I apologise.
19 MR. SHIN: No, I'm sorry, Mr. President, I should have indicated
20 to Your Honours as well.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No, we have Miljevici and Vranjes --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do, because I still don't see it.
23 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, if we look at the three flags we see in
24 Cyrillic -- well, a CPK in the middle and immediately to the right
25 something that looks like 4A -- AU -- yes, thank you, Mr. President.
1 Q. Now, Mr. Trapara, I'd like you to focus on a flag depicted on
2 this map. The bottom of this flag is just at the G of G. Kotorac,
3 Gornji Kotorac. Do you see that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, on that flag we see in Cyrillic letters OKB; isn't that
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that's the acronym for the armoured battalion you were
9 speaking of; correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And finally on this map, as we see just below where it says
12 G. Kotorac, this red line that we see, this thin red line made of dashes
13 and dots, would it be correct that that's the border-line between the
14 Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade and the next brigade over?
15 A. Yes. The neighbour is the Light Sarajevo Brigade.
16 MR. SHIN: Could I please tender this map, Your Honours?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30643 receives number P6516,
19 Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
21 MR. SHIN:
22 Q. Now, Mr. Trapara, would it be correct that either this armoured
23 battalion or the other armoured battalion also had T-55 tanks?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How many tanks did they have?
1 A. I cannot tell you exactly.
2 Q. Okay. I'd like to move to a slightly different area now. In
3 your statement or earlier today you were explaining about the three
4 82-millimetre mortars and we saw the location of that on the map earlier.
5 Now, you've explained in previous testimony that you as company commander
6 could ask for support from these mortars which were under the control of
7 the battalion; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And this was in the Dragomir Milosevic testimony. You further
10 explained specifically that you "personally as a commander could call on
11 these mortars."
12 And my question to you is: How was that done? Was that done by
13 radio or was that done by something else?
14 A. We did it in two ways, by radio and by telephone, wire telephone.
15 We had a wire connection from the battalion command to my company. Thus,
16 when I felt the need for mortars, I would call the superior command to
17 get them to approve mortar action only in situations when we were
18 directly attacked and my own life and the lives of my soldiers were in
20 Q. Now, who did you call specifically at the battalion command when
21 you wanted the support of these mortars?
22 A. Somebody from the command. The duty officer if I was unable to
23 get the commander of the battalion or his deputy, I would call the duty
24 officer at the command of the battalion. The commander could not always
25 be present; he was often in the field.
1 Q. Now, you explained the circumstances under which you would make
2 this call for mortar support. Let me ask you, would you, for example,
3 call in mortar fire in response to sniper fire you were receiving from
4 the ABiH?
5 A. I never called in mortar support in reaction to sniper fire
6 because it would have been too risky for us. When there was sniper fire
7 we mostly --
8 Q. I'm sorry, if the translation could continue. I wasn't sure if
9 you were finished.
10 A. I was about to say this: We neutralised sniper fire from our
11 positions using the Browning 12.7-millimetres because we targeted
12 directly those places from which we noticed the sniper firing at our
13 positions and behind our lines at the population.
14 Q. Now, you mentioned a Browning. Is it -- would it be appropriate
15 also in response to sniper fire to use rockets?
16 A. I didn't have that capability. I didn't have rockets.
17 Q. I'm asking you whether as an infantry commander you think that
18 would be an appropriate response to sniper fire?
19 MR. LUKIC: Objection.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, it's a hypothetical question.
21 MR. LUKIC: Asked and answered.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether that's true or not, but at least it's
23 a hypothetical question.
24 Mr. Shin, if you could make it a factual question, then. But
25 whether it would be appropriate to do something where the witness told us
1 that he didn't have that facility available to him that --
2 MR. SHIN: Okay. I'll move on.
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]...
4 MR. SHIN: -- Mr. President.
5 Q. Mr. Trapara, you in your statement talk about receiving daily
6 sniper fire and you've just described that a little bit now. Apart from
7 the Browning was there anything else that you had available in your
8 company to respond to sniper fire?
9 A. We had an anti-aircraft gun, 20-millimetres, it was issued to us,
10 to my company from supplies, PAT 20-millimetres, that means anti-aircraft
11 machine-gun. In 1994 when the order came to remove heavy weapons at a
12 certain distance from Sarajevo, we had to give it up.
13 Q. Mr. Trapara, would it also be correct that you could use rifles
14 to neutralise a sniper?
15 A. Well, you can do it even with a pistol if you are that good a
16 marksman. We could have, but a sniper fires two bullets and then runs
17 away to a different area, to a different sector. And that happened every
18 day. In my statement I said that throughout the war we were below Muslim
19 forces --
20 Q. Mr. Trapara --
21 A. -- Bogusevac and --
22 Q. -- I'm sorry to stop you there but I think we're getting a little
23 far afield from the line of topics we were discussing. Now, you were
24 saying that -- what you were saying is of course that if you were a good
25 marksman you could neutralise a sniper; that's what you said. Correct?
1 A. Yes. But you know what that means? That means finding a good
2 sniper that would take out the sniper on the other side with a rifle, and
3 that happened too.
4 Q. Now, you described the possibility of calling your battalion
5 command for 82-millimetre mortar support. Isn't it also the case that if
6 your men's safety -- if their lives were in danger, you could call on the
7 battalion command for any other assets that they had available to support
8 your troops?
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin, could I seek clarification of one of the
11 previous answers?
12 MR. SHIN: Yes, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You said, Witness, you said responding to sniper
14 fire, you said:
15 "That means finding a good sniper that would take out the sniper
16 on the other side with a rifle and that happened too."
17 Do I understand that in response to sniper fire you found good
18 snipers that would take out the sniper on the other side, that that
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would be in one case in a
21 thousand, but it happened. We had few such men.
22 JUDGE ORIE: One in a thousand? That seems -- sounds very
23 exceptional. Was that exceptional?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was really that exceptional that
25 a sniper could take out a sniper. He really had to be master of his
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, to be successful. But how often was it tried
3 to eliminate a sniper on the other side by using snipers on your side?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The worst thing for me was that we
5 didn't have any snipers at all. We didn't need snipers because we
6 were -- we were on lower ground.
7 JUDGE ORIE: But you said it happened, which suggests that at
8 least there were snipers, if not in your own unit then nearby, to do this
9 exceptional job?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I heard of such things,
11 nowhere near me, but yes such cases existed.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So the one out of thousands you do not even have
13 personal knowledge about this happening?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Shin.
16 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Q. Now, Mr. Trapara, continuing on with this issue of snipers.
18 First, do you accept that in the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade there
19 were considerable quantities of sniper weapons, optical equipment, and
20 silencers for sniper rifles?
21 A. At brigade level, yes.
22 MR. SHIN: In that light can we briefly have P675 on the screen.
23 Q. This is an order from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command to all
24 units. You can see at the bottom the signature of the commander,
25 General Galic. Now let's go to point 1. It states:
1 "Each brigade should set up a platoon-strength snipers group
2 (30 + 1 soldiers). These should be supplied with sniper rifles, optical,
3 and infrared, passive sights, silencers."
4 Do you see that, Mr. Trapara?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. Now, this would appear to refer to what were saying about
7 battalion assets, battalions having snipers; correct?
8 A. I've said the brigade had these assets. I just said that.
9 Q. I'm sorry, that's right, you said brigades. I would like to go
10 to point 2. It states:
11 "These forces should immediately start training and carrying out
12 assignments ..."
13 And point 3 states:
14 "Report to Corps Command by 2400 ..."
15 Now, this order to all units in the SRK, do you accept that that
16 means it would have gone to, as you say, the brigade level?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. By the way, you see that this document is number 20/15-1244,
19 1244. Let's move to another document --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do, can I ask this question?
21 MR. SHIN: Yes, of course.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Trapara, this order in the first paragraph
24 "Each brigade should set up a platoon-strength snipers group ..."
25 How do I understand that? Does it mean the brigade forms a
1 platoon, which is armed with snipers?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what the document says, it's
3 written there.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does that mean then that the sniper groups did not
5 just end at the brigade, they went down to the platoon?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, by logic that should be so --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not by logic.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but it didn't reach me.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not by logic, by this order.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, according to the order.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 MR. SHIN: If I could have P762 on the screen, please.
13 Q. Now, while we're waiting for this document -- just one moment,
15 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, I misspoke, Ms. Stewart has corrected me,
16 it's P672.
17 Q. Mr. Trapara, this is a document you've seen before. It's a
18 report from the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade to the Sarajevo-Romanija
19 Corps command. Now, you see at the bottom it's from
20 Colonel Veljko Stojanovic, commander of the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised
21 Brigade. We can see it begins:
22 "Pursuant to your order, strictly confidential, number
23 20/15-1244 ..."
24 And this is a report in response to the order from General Galic,
25 the very document we just saw. And this, by the way, reflects the chain
1 of command, right? The corps command issues an order to the brigades and
2 the brigades report on the implementation of the order? You nodded your
3 head; is that a "yes"? You nodded your head again. Please just say yes
4 for the record.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Trapara, if you are nodding, that does not
6 appear on the transcript so everyone will have to guess what your answer
7 was. When you were nodding, you were confirming the accuracy of what
8 Mr. Shin said?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, a moment ago I did.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 MR. SHIN:
12 Q. So on the chain of command -- in fact, we see at the stamp at the
13 bottom of this document that the report was received at 2350 hours,
14 obediently complying with the orders specification that reports were due
15 to the corps command by 2400 hours. You see that; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, you see that this document refers to various items that the
18 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade possessed. I'm not going to read them
19 all out, but you see, for example, the references to number 4,
20 7.9-millimetre sniper rifle, 12 pieces, and we see number 8, sniper rifle
21 silencers, four pieces, and so on. All together there are 30 rifles
22 listed among this equipment. So now do you accept that your brigade,
23 this 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade had these weapons, as indicated by
24 the brigade commander?
25 A. I said to you a moment ago that the brigade had that and there is
1 nothing controversial here.
2 Q. Well then we'll continue. Right after this inventory at the
3 bottom of this document we read:
4 "As we don't have a special sniper unit, we have issued the
5 sniper rifles to combatants in the subordinated units.
6 "They are active when the combatants are in position ..."
7 Now, first, subordinate units, that would mean the battalions;
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you accept that the brigade commander issued these sniper
11 rifles to combatants in the subordinated units and that they were indeed
12 active as the commander has indicated here?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And we see further below that there is a request for further
15 rifles and more silencers; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, you've told this Court that the commander of the battalion
18 was Aleksandar Petrovic, deputy was Milan Hrvacevic, and the assistant
19 commander for intel and security was Dragan Maletic, all in the
20 2nd Battalion; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. SHIN: If I could have another document, please, this is
23 65 ter 30656. And let's just have the first page in both, please.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Trapara, do you see under number 19 Aleksandar Petrovic?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And there is also Milan Hrvacevic in number 8 and Dragan Maletic
2 in number 14?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. At the top of this page we see the word "command," "komanda."
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. This would appear to be a list of personnel at the command of
7 your battalion; isn't that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. SHIN: Now, can we please have page 3 in B/C/S and English
10 page 3. I'll be flipping over to page 4 as well for the English.
11 Q. At the bottom half of this page, Mr. Trapara, do you see the word
12 "snipers"? And on the B/C/S you can see that there are 11 names.
13 A. I see that.
14 Q. Now, this indicates that there were 11 snipers under the command
15 of the battalion, not the brigade; isn't that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, could I have this document given an MFI
18 number? It will be used again with another witness.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be?
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30656 receives number P6517,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
23 MR. SHIN: Mr. President, if I may continue just for a few more
24 minutes to finish this section?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you think that five minutes would do?
1 MR. SHIN: Absolutely.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then please do so and we'll take a break after that.
3 MR. SHIN:
4 Q. Now, Mr. Trapara, I'm going to remind you that you said in your
5 statement that the Muslim units facing you had a large number of snipers.
6 That was their major strength. I'm looking at paragraph 20. And there
7 was almost daily sniping against Serbian positions and civilians. Now,
8 as you say you had - and this is the same paragraph - "... no trained
9 professional snipers ..."
10 You've described the situation of the snipers, described the fact
11 that you called the battalion for 82-millimetre mortar support. Did you
12 ever ask the battalion command for sniper support?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you ever ask the battalion command about sniper assets?
15 A. This is the first time I see this document. Now, whether this
16 was hidden from me, I don't know. I don't know about this. I just
17 know --
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the second part
19 of the sentence.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I see this
21 document and the signatures.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could I invite you to repeat what you said after you
23 said: What I do know ... and then what you then said was lost. You
25 "I don't know about this. I just know ..."
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: What, what did you just know? Could you please
3 repeat it.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just know that none of the
5 mentioned soldiers who are mentioned as snipers, none of these soldiers
6 were from my unit. They didn't even come close to my unit. This is the
7 first time I see this document today with these signatures.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us where you say they did not even
9 come close to your unit, where they then were to be found, if not close
10 to your unit?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, I don't know the
13 JUDGE ORIE: So it could even be close to your unit if you don't
14 know the location?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is possible for me only to make
16 an assumption.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 MR. SHIN: Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. SHIN: I have a couple more questions but maybe after the
21 break since I can't control how long those questions may take.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we'll take the break first. Mr. Shin, I
23 think you have approximately 15 minutes left from your estimate of two
24 hours. Is that -- I think we resumed at ten minutes to 11.00. We are
25 now close to 12.00.
1 MR. SHIN: I'll assume that you are right, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Shin, but your last question, was it answered,
3 irrespective of whether the witness has seen this document for the first
4 time, your question was: Did you ever ask the battalion for sniper
6 MR. SHIN: Yes, I was going to return to that question but I can
7 have the answer now if the witness is available.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've said no. I did not ask the
9 battalion for snipers.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not snipers but sniper assets. There were two
12 separate questions. You were asked about snipers and sniper assets, in
13 other words, guns themselves.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Neither. I asked for neither.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
16 We take a break of 20 minutes, Mr. Trapara.
17 [The witness stands down].
18 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes past midday.
19 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 12.21 p.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for the witness to be brought
22 into the courtroom, Mr. Lukic, for the next witness - and there are no
23 protective measures as far as I remember - Mr. Skrba, the -- I think on
24 the basis of the first witness list we concluded that the lower estimate
25 would be the valid one, while we had then 1 hour and 30 minutes and 45
1 minutes, so we expected 45 minutes to be the time you would need but
2 now --
3 MR. LUKIC: It is 45 minutes. I just checked --
4 JUDGE ORIE: It's 45 minutes.
5 MR. LUKIC: -- with Mr. Stojanovic since it's his witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. And not 1 hour and 30 minutes. That's been
7 clarified. We can proceed.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin, you may proceed.
10 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. Mr. Trapara, I'd like to move to a different topic right now.
12 I'd like to discuss an incident on October 15th, 1991, involving charges
13 of the illegal possession of weapons and explosives and involving you.
14 Could you please tell this Court what this case involved so they have a
15 full picture and a full understanding of what this was about.
16 A. In my statement, at the very outset of the statement, I said that
17 in the month of September 1991 I saw Jusuf Prazina, nicknamed Juka, with
18 his paramilitary units, and I saw them a lot every day. They instilled
19 fear amongst the population of Lukavica with their sporadic gun-fire --
20 Q. Mr. Trapara, if I could interrupt you there. My apologies.
21 Perhaps I should have been more specific. Could you please describe your
22 arrest for this incident and what happened afterwards.
23 A. On the 15th of October, 1991, around 11.00 in the evening my
24 uncle asked me whether I could go with him to Miljevici on a truck so
25 that we could get a load. At first I didn't know what this was all
1 about. When we arrived there, the village of Miljevic, that is, next to
2 a warehouse and a chicken farm at the time some people said "Ignjatije,
3 load this on to that truck and get going." Also, some young men loaded
4 this - I really don't know why I went in the first place - these young
5 men put these boxes on the truck within 10 or 15 minutes --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other
7 microphones please be switched off. We cannot hear the witness.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- we went in the direction of
9 Lukavica. Can we hear each other now? Towards the area of Prljavo Brdo.
10 As soon as we stopped this truck, within ten minutes or so a patrol car
11 of the police arrived and three policemen got out. I personally knew two
12 of them. One of them was called Jure, he was the commander, and the
13 other one was Sulejman, Zoll [phoen], and the third one arrived later --
14 actually later I heard that his name was Pajdakovic [phoen],
15 Sajuci [phoen]. They just asked then who the driver of that truck was.
16 My uncle Ignjatije said: I. One of the policemen got on to the truck
17 with him and the other two got into their own car and then they went in
18 the direction of Vrace. I went back to my own home, and then the next
19 day, the following day, that is, I went to work as usual. I worked at
20 Post Office II in Sarajevo at the new railway station.
21 I worked there for 10 or 12 days until two military policemen
22 came and then they took me in. They took me to the Viktor Bubanj prison.
23 I was detained there for 28 days. After that, I went back to my job,
24 that is to say in November, and I worked all the way up until the 3rd of
25 April. I remember that very well. It was the holiday of Bajram. From
1 that day onwards, for personal and security reasons, I did not go to
2 work. It was impossible to get through. There were barricades there,
3 et cetera. That is what I have to say about that incident.
4 Q. Okay.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Can I seek clarification on one issue. You said
6 your uncle was asked who was the driver, "he said: I." Did you mean to
7 say that he himself was the driver or that you were the driver?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. My uncle was the driver of
9 this Zastava.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And could you tell us what was loaded, finally,
11 whether you have any knowledge, because that's the missing part of the
12 story? What was found in that car? What was in those boxes?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know. Believe me. These
14 were boxes and I could just assume --
15 JUDGE ORIE: No, please. Do you know now what was found in those
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I do know.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Tell us, please.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I read a report of the MUP of the
20 SRBiH, that is to say the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
21 I think it was dated the 16th of October and it is stated there
22 unequivocally --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please tell us, apart from what you read in a
24 report, what was found in those boxes according to this report.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What was found was semiautomatic
1 rifles. Also, this other thing, it was called "dobosari," they used
2 ammunition for pistols, and also there was a certain amount of ammunition
4 JUDGE ORIE: How many semiautomatic rifles were in there as
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly. Believe me,
7 I don't know the exact number. To this day I do not know the exact
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Shin.
10 MR. SHIN:
11 Q. Mr. Trapara, you've referred to a police bulletin or a police
13 MR. SHIN: Could I have 65 ter 30639 on the screen. And if we go
14 to the first page. While it's coming up, I'll describe what it is. It's
15 a bulletin of significant daily events dated 16th of October, 1991, and
16 at the top of the cover page it reads: "Socialist Republic of Bosnia and
17 Herzegovina, Ministry of the Interior." Now let's go to page 2 in
18 English and 2 in the B/C/S.
19 Q. Now, I'll orient you to where I'm going, Mr. Trapara. Do you see
20 the reference in the top third of the page with a line beginning with the
21 words "Naime, radnici ..."
22 Now, first of all, this is the report that you were just talking
23 about, the police report; that's correct, right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, we see that it states that:
1 "At about 0200 hours on the 15th of October, in the village of
2 Ivanici, policemen at the Novo Sarajevo public security station stopped a
3 freight vehicle that was being driven by its owner, Ignjatije Trapara.
4 The truck was stopped at a second attempt after it failed to stop when
5 the patrol first flagged it down."
6 That's what the report reads, correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Now I'll move a few lines down where the cargo is
9 addressed. Now, the Judges have asked you what this was cargo was.
10 You've given an answer. You've seen this report before. Now let's see
11 what it says.
12 "The following items were found in the truck: Two hand-held
13 launchers, two optical sights with the original boxes, two hand-held
14 launcher mounts, two cleaning brushes for hand-held launchers, four
15 wooden boxes containing 40 semi-automatic rifles with corresponding
16 technical sheets, ammunition pouchs, and cleaning kits, seven
17 semi-automatic rifles, four wooden boxes containing 3.600, 7.9-millimetre
18 rounds, eight wooden boxes with 8.960, 7.62-millimetre rounds, and one
19 box containing two M-53 light machine-guns with supplementary equipment,
20 technical sheets, and cleaning kits ..."
21 Did I read that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Would you agree with me that this is considerably more than what
24 you just told the Judges when they had asked you more than once what was
25 in the cargo?
1 A. Well, I didn't know, I didn't know what the content was of this
3 Q. Well, you say now that you didn't know, but let's go back to see
4 what you said in the Dragomir Milosevic case.
5 MR. SHIN: If I could have a moment, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps meanwhile I ask one question.
7 The report states that you tried to flee. What was the reason
8 for that? Did it happen and what was the reason if it happened?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, it did not happen. I
10 said a moment ago I was of no interest to them at all. They just asked
11 who the driver of the truck was. The following day I went to work as
12 usual, as I said a moment ago.
13 JUDGE ORIE: So you said when they report that you tried to
14 escape that's just not true? Because that was my question.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not true. That's not true.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You did not run away?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No way.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Shin.
19 MR. SHIN:
20 Q. But, Mr. Trapara, you accept that that's what the police report
21 reads of course?
22 A. Well, police reports are not always truthful.
23 Q. Mr. --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin.
25 MR. SHIN: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If a report is so clear in its reading, then whether
2 the witness confirms that it says so only if there's any matter which
3 could reasonably be in dispute, but otherwise the Chamber reads that
4 that's what the report tells us.
5 MR. SHIN: Yes, there's one other sentence which is relevant that
6 I will point you to.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do.
8 MR. SHIN: If we could on this document go to the English page 3
9 and the B/C/S page 3 as well.
10 Q. Now, Mr. Trapara, in the B/C/S this is in the upper third. This
11 is a sentence that was not previously read to you in your prior
12 testimonies. It -- and I'll read it out to you. I'll read it out to you
13 now. It states:
14 "The search for Predrag Trapara, 28, and Slobodan Trapara, 39,
15 postmen at the Sarajevo Post Office II is continuing."
16 That certainly suggests that they were looking for you, doesn't
18 A. Is it possible for me to work, to go to work the very next day
19 all the way up until April 1992, and there I was working and then
20 somebody writes this up and says that I was trying to escape? I cannot
21 understand that. That report, that list that I got concerning employment
22 after Dayton, and everything is stated there, that I worked, that I was
23 at my job until the 4th of April, I cannot believe that they say that I
24 tried to escape.
25 Q. Mr. Trapara, I'll return to this issue, but right now I want to
1 return first to what we were discussing earlier.
2 MR. SHIN: And if I could briefly go into private session,
3 Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
5 MR. SHIN: And while waiting for that I would just note that I'm
6 moving into private session because it requires a portion of
7 the Milosevic -- I won't --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you wait for the confirmation that we are in
9 private session.
10 MR. SHIN: Sure.
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 21177-21178 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin, you may proceed.
18 MR. SHIN:
19 Q. Mr. Trapara, now even after you had read this police report in
20 response to questions from the Court, you didn't give the full
21 explanation of what it was, did you? You left out -- as we saw, you left
22 out two machine-guns; that's correct, isn't it?
23 A. Yes, I left it out but it's written in the report.
24 Q. Yes. And you left out some other things as well, but I'm going
25 to move to a few other issues here. Now, today you told the Judges that
1 you went back to work in your post office for 10 to 12 day. Do you
2 recall that in earlier testimony, perhaps to you a small difference, in
3 an earlier testimony you said that you went back to work for seven days
4 before the military police came to get you. That's correct, is it?
5 A. Well, all right. I mean, a man cannot remember everything that
6 happened 20 years ago in a five-day period, five days here or there. I
7 cannot remember precisely. But if we're talking about a certain period,
8 it could be seven days later or seven days earlier.
9 Q. Now, Mr. Trapara, you've been asked about the contents of this
10 truck. This is the third case you've been asked about the contents of
11 this truck. Now, in the first -- in the Dragomir Milosevic case, do you
12 recall that it took Defence counsel three questions for you to even begin
13 discussing the contents of that truck; do you recall that?
14 A. In which case?
15 Q. In the Dragomir Milosevic case.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And even after that, in the Karadzic case when you were asked
18 about this and you were asked what the cargo was, your initial response
19 was that it merely held these "dobosari" pistols and some
20 semi-automatics; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Isn't it clear that you are trying to minimise the nature of this
23 incident, the gravity of this incident, and your involvement, at least
24 you're trying to minimise it until you're confronted with the police
1 A. I wasn't trying to minimise it. I wasn't sure how much of
2 everything there was until I read this document.
3 Q. I'm going to move on now to ask you about what happened after --
4 what happened after this incident. Can you tell us in terms of criminal
5 procedure you say that -- I can't recall if you explained. Did you end
6 up going to court and what happened afterwards?
7 A. I ended up before a military court and we were sentenced by the
8 former JNA. Our trial was held at Viktor Bubanj.
9 Q. And it's correct that at that time of course, as you say, that
10 was the JNA that held the barracks?
11 I'll move on since you've already answered that question. Did
12 you receive a fine as well?
13 A. We did, yes.
14 Q. Okay.
15 MR. SHIN: With that, Your Honours, I would tender 65 ter 30639.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30639 receives number P6518,
18 Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
20 MR. SHIN:
21 Q. Now, Mr. Trapara, I'd like to move on back to this issue of
22 humanitarian convoys. In your statement --
23 MR. SHIN: And, Your Honours, that's paragraphs 21 and 22.
24 Q. -- in your statement you address humanitarian assistance for the
25 Muslim-held part of town and you explain that you always let that
1 through. In the Karadzic testimony you were shown this document which is
2 now D462, if we could just have that up briefly.
3 At that time in the Karadzic testimony you were asked -- when you
4 were asked about this document, you answered:
5 "When it comes to this order, I have to say that I could have
6 learned about it through the battalion command. That was the only way
7 for me to be aware of this order, but I never received this order from
8 the battalion commander nor was I aware of it."
9 So you weren't of course aware of that document?
10 I'm not sure what the translation was, Mr. Trapara, I'm not
11 trying to ask a complicated question. I'm just simply asking you to
12 confirm that, as you said in your Karadzic testimony, you were not aware
13 of that document?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, we don't need to bring up this other document, but regarding
16 document D461 you were asked about that as well in the Karadzic testimony
17 and your answer at that time was:
18 "At that time I was a young man. I was a company commander. I
19 was a local guy. People knew me and I did not have access to information
20 at such a high level. This was a very high level for me."
21 So once again, that's a document you really didn't know anything
22 about; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, you addressed also a document earlier today that was P2050,
25 and regarding that document as well - and this was about humanitarian
1 assistance also - you were asked about that in Karadzic again. You
3 "I didn't know anything about that at that time. I knew
4 Mr. Abdic well but only from the media like everyone else. I didn't know
5 that things had to be done the way as is described here."
6 So you didn't know about that document either; isn't that
8 A. It's not quite clear to me what documents you're talking about.
9 I don't have anything in front of me here.
10 Q. That's fair enough.
11 MR. SHIN: Can we have P2050 on the screen.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And earlier when you were talking I
13 didn't have anything in front of me.
14 MR. SHIN:
15 Q. This is the most recent document we were talking about, P2050,
16 and in the Karadzic case you had been read part of paragraph 6.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you perhaps briefly introduce the document.
18 MR. SHIN: Yes, of course, Mr. President. This is a code cable
19 from Mr. Akashi to Mr. Annan. It's dated 14 March 1995. And if we go to
20 paragraph 6 I'll read the relevant passage. The first sentence reads:
21 "On the subject of freedom of movement, particularly with regard
22 to the delivery of humanitarian assistance, General Mladic was very
23 obstructive. He insisted on absolute parity between what is delivered to
24 the Bosnian Serbs and what is delivered to the enclaves ..."
25 Q. Now, Mr. Trapara, you were asked in the Karadzic case by the
1 Prosecution whether on the basis of this you would accept that there was
2 indeed a policy at the highest levels of the Bosnian Serb army in the
3 highest levels of the Bosnian Serb political organs to deliberately
4 obstruct the delivery of humanitarian assistance. And at that question
5 your response was what I mentioned earlier, that you didn't know anything
6 about that at the time. Correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, I'd like to move on to paragraph 14 of your statement. You
9 don't need to refer to that. I'll tell you what it says. You say
10 civilians in your area on Serbian territory were "frightened by frequent
11 shelling from the Muslim side ..."
12 Now, it would be logical, wouldn't it, that heavy shelling would
13 frighten them more than light shelling? Mr. Trapara, we're not on that
14 document now. Perhaps if we could remove the document from the screens
15 and I can return to the question.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Shin, and the Chamber would prefer if you
17 would not ask the witness what is logical or not but rather to ask what
18 he knows.
19 MR. SHIN: Yes, of course, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Logic is not the easiest thing in a courtroom.
21 MR. SHIN:
22 Q. Mr. Trapara, my question to you: You said in your statement that
23 civilians, Serb civilians, on your side in Serbian territory were
24 frightened by the frequency of shelling from the Muslim side. They were
25 more frightened by heavier shelling than they were by very light
1 shelling; correct?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Now, you would agree that civilians on the other side, Muslim
4 civilians, would likewise be frightened by shelling?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you agree that they would also be frightened more by heavy
7 shelling than by light shelling?
8 A. Yes, of course.
9 Q. So you would agree -- well, let me put it this way. Would you
10 agree that shelling was heavier from the Serb side than it was from the
11 ABiH side?
12 A. At the beginning, at the line where I was, yes; but then from the
13 middle until the end it was more or less even. So at the beginning of
14 the war what you said is correct, but from the middle until the end of
15 the war what I said stands. They armed themselves more and more each
16 day, so we were equally matched.
17 Q. My question to you wasn't about whether you were both equally
18 matched. My question to you whether you would agree that the shelling
19 was heavier from the Serb side than from the ABiH side?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: It is asked and answered.
22 JUDGE ORIE: It is, Mr. Shin. Please proceed.
23 MR. SHIN:
24 Q. I'd like to now turn to the discussion that we had earlier about
25 the 20-millimetre anti-aircraft gun that you had, the PAT. Now, how long
1 was it that you had these guns -- I'm sorry, that gun.
2 A. From November 1992 until the order in 1994 I think when the order
3 came for the heavy artillery to be relocated from Sarajevo to I don't
4 know how many kilometres back, until that time. So according to that
5 order it was specified what sort of weaponry could remain. The
6 20-millimetre PAT anti-aircraft gun had to be moved.
7 Q. And when in 1994 was it that it had to be moved?
8 A. I can't remember the exact month.
9 Q. Do you recall in prior testimony that you said that that occurred
10 in August of 1994?
11 A. It was more or less when General Milosevic assumed the post of
12 corps commander, around that time.
13 Q. And to the best of your recollection, would that have been around
14 August or some other time?
15 A. I really couldn't confirm that now.
16 Q. Was it later in 1994 or was it earlier?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
18 MR. LUKIC: I have to object.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The witness apparently remembers that it was around
20 the moment that General Milosevic assumed the post of corps commander.
21 Could the parties not agree on when that was?
22 MR. SHIN: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That seems not to be a matter which creates great
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. SHIN: Yes, and I don't need to do this with the witness. So
2 I'll just simply ask:
3 Q. Mr. Trapara, are you aware that the agreement on the withdrawal
4 of heavy weapons was made in February of 1994?
5 A. I don't remember the exact date. I know that it was in 1994, in
6 the first half of 1994. I can't remember the exact date. It's been a
7 long time since then.
8 Q. Well, we can check later to see when it was that
9 General Milosevic took his post since you've specified that at least.
10 I'd like to move to another area and this relates to your
11 statement where you talk about several locations and geographical
13 MR. SHIN: And for Your Honours, that's paragraph 6.
14 Q. You mentioned Stupsko Brdo. That's not in your zone of
15 responsibility, is it?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You mention Zuc, that's not in your area of responsibility?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Nor are these other places that you've listed there as being
20 under BH army control, and these include Hum, Cordon, Colina Kapa,
21 Bistrik, Kula, Sokolje, none of those are in your area of responsibility?
22 A. They didn't have to be in my area of responsibility, but
23 everybody knew that the B&H army was at those locations.
24 Q. Now in your Dragomir Milosevic testimony you were asked this
1 "Some of the inner hills, the ones closer to the city, were held
2 by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but as you go back further away
3 from the town you get to hills that were held by the Army of
4 Republika Srpska; isn't that correct?"
5 And your answer was:
6 "To the depths of the territory, yes."
7 You stand by that; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, there was also some discussion in that case about the
10 positioning of various elevations, particularly with regards to
11 Debelo Brdo and an elevation known as Grad. Now, I'm not going to get
12 into that with you now but I'll just put this question to you: There are
13 indirect and direct means of fire; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And indirect means of fire, as the phrase would indicate, does
16 not require a direct line of sight?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And now finally my last question to you, Mr. Trapara: Are you
19 aware of any military prosecutions, administrative discipline, inquiries,
20 investigations, or similar into allegations that soldiers of the
21 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps committed war crimes during the period when you
22 were a member of the 2nd Battalion?
23 A. Specifically for my unit, no, but as for that section of the
24 corps that you are talking about, war crimes were committed by people who
25 were not members of any military formation. They were -- I don't even
1 know what I could call them. They were so-called free shooters. They
2 did not belong to any military command and they didn't have any military
4 Q. Mr. Trapara, my question was specifically about the soldiers of
5 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, not about people who were not part of the
7 A. I don't think any war crimes happened in our sector.
8 MR. SHIN: No further questions, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Shin.
10 One additional question, Mr. Trapara. You told us that crimes
11 were committed by those who were not members of the army. Could you tell
12 us something about that? What crimes do you remember were committed and
13 by whom were they committed?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I would not like to mention
15 specific names now because all these young men have been tried and
16 convicted by the BH court.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then nevertheless I would like you to tell us the
18 names of those that come to your mind at this moment.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I feel very awkward
20 should I mention the names now, but we all know their names.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well this Court does not; that's the reason why I'm
22 asking. If you would prefer to go into private session, that's okay as
23 far as I'm concerned. But would you like to answer the question in
24 private session and then we move into private session?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you insist, I can give you one
1 name. I can't remember any more.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You know of one name only, one person only, of what
3 you called free shooters?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Who was it?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are we in private session?
7 JUDGE ORIE: No. If you want us to turn into private session, we
8 move into private session.
9 [Private session]
11 Page 21191 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
24 Mr. Shin.
25 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, I wanted to catch us before we left private
1 session. There is a correction in a name and perhaps we can do that now
2 or towards the end, whenever is more convenient.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let's do it at the end.
4 MR. SHIN: We would still need the witness for that.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's fine.
6 Mr. Lukic, how much time would you need for re-examination?
7 MR. LUKIC: In between 10 to 15 minutes, maybe 10.
8 JUDGE ORIE: If you could -- if you would do it in 10 and then we
9 would hear from Mr. Shin, because then we are just a little bit over the
10 one hour. But if you would re-examine the witness now.
11 You'll be re-examined, Mr. Trapara, by Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: I would like to have P672 in the e-court.
13 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember, Mr. Trapara, that you were
15 asked about this document?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you have any direct knowledge that this document was really
18 acted upon? In other words, were snipers really distributed in reality
19 and do you know to whom?
20 A. I did not know and I still don't know today to whom exactly the
21 snipers were distributed, I mean I didn't know until the moment when I
22 saw it in another document a moment ago.
23 Q. Considering the position of your unit, could you describe it more
24 precisely? What were you able to see of the positions on enemy
1 A. From our positions, we were able to see only two rows of houses
2 from the Mojmilo hill, down the slope towards us. And the BH Army had
3 positions inside those houses, they had trenches outside, et cetera.
4 Q. Could you explain why that is so?
5 A. On that map the Prosecutor showed a moment ago there were three
6 main features, Bogusevac 860 metres altitude and the two other features,
7 all these three dominant features were held by the Muslim side.
8 Q. The depth of the territory held by the Muslim side was behind the
9 hills; correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now I would like to see P2050 again.
12 JUDGE ORIE: When waiting for it to come up, Mr. Lukic, I was a
13 bit confused by your question about whether it really happened, what we
14 saw in that document, because the document apparently describes what was
15 done, not what was intended to be done but what was done. So therefore I
16 was a bit confused by your question.
17 MR. LUKIC: I was just checking with the witness if he has any
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
22 Q. [Interpretation] In today's transcript, you don't have to bother
23 about it, I'll read it out to you, on page 64, lines 7 through 13, my
24 colleague Mr. Shin from the Prosecution put to you that in a previous
25 trial the suggestion was made to you that the highest levels obstructed
1 the passage of convoys, and in response you confirmed that's what's
2 written in the document. I want to ask you once again: Did it ever
3 happen on the ground controlled by your unit that a convoy was not
4 allowed through?
5 A. No, it didn't happen. Maybe also because this order was in place
6 although I didn't know about it. Maybe I even violated some orders that
7 I was not aware of, but I let every convoy pass without exception.
8 Q. There was one convoy in which the military police found seven
10 A. That's correct. That was at the intersection in Lukavica by the
11 local commune building.
12 Q. Was that convoy allowed through after the rifles were removed?
13 A. I don't know how the corps military police got intelligence about
14 these rifles. I was at an observation point just watching this incident,
15 and the convoy carrying flour continued to Grbavica. So the rifles were
16 removed and the convoy went on its way after detailed inspection, that's
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Trapara.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. We have
20 nothing further.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
22 If there was -- do you have --
23 MR. SHIN: No, nothing further from me.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- any other questions apart from the one you had.
25 MR. SHIN: Yeah, just the one correction.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Can we -- we have to deal with it in private
3 MR. SHIN: Yes, because it arises from a portion of the private
4 session testimony.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will briefly move for what will be the last
6 question, Mr. Trapara, into private session.
7 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
24 Mr. Trapara, this concludes your testimony in this court. I
25 would like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and
1 for having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties
2 and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again. You may
3 follow the usher.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break and we'll resume at quarter to
7 2.00 and then we have another half-hour to start the testimony of the
8 next witness, Mr. Stojanovic.
9 --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 1.46 p.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
12 Mr. Ivetic, I -- yes.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
15 Mr. Ivetic, I see that you're present. There is an issue the
16 Chamber would like to discuss with the parties, but we prefer not to have
17 the witness wait now for half an hour then to find out that we have not
18 started his examination, but tomorrow we'll certainly find time to deal
19 with the matter.
20 I don't know to what extent it has already been discussed with
21 the Prosecution what this topic is we would like to discuss in private
22 session; if not, you'll be informed about it.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Skrba, I presume. Before you
25 give evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. May
1 I invite you to do so. The text is handed out to you by the usher.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I solemnly declare that
3 I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: DUSAN SKRBA
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Skrba. Please be seated.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic. You'll
9 find him to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
10 Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
11 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Skrba.
13 A. Good afternoon.
14 Q. For the record, could you please state your name and surname
16 A. My name is Dusan Skrba.
17 Q. Could you please tell the Court whether you gave Mr. Mladic's
18 Defence team a statement pertaining to the questions that we had put to
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please
22 have the following document in e-court: 65 ter 1D01610. Also I would
23 like us to focus on the first page of that document.
24 Q. Mr. Skrba, are these your personal details and is this your
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like us to have a look at the last page of
3 this document. It has a total of six pages and in the lower right-hand
4 corner there is a signature. Is that your signature, Mr. Skrba?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to put the following to you. Today if
7 I were to put the same questions to you like those contained in this
8 statement, would you give the same answers now also after having made the
9 solemn declaration?
10 A. Yes, 99 per cent to the best of my knowledge and recollection.
11 Q. Would your answers contain the truth concerning these events?
12 A. It would always be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
13 the truth as best I can relate it.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
16 tender Mr. Dusan Skrba's statement into evidence, 1D01610, that is its
17 65 ter number.
18 MR. SHIN: No objections.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Skrba, may I take it that you recently had an
20 opportunity to review what is written down as your statement?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1610 receives number D463,
24 Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: D463 is admitted into evidence.
1 You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, also I would like
3 to suggest that along with the witness's statement another document be
4 admitted, 1D02039, that's its 65 ter number.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's one out of the two associated exhibits
7 Any objection against this associated exhibit?
8 MR. SHIN: If that's the one -- I believe that's the one ending
9 with the 39 number, no objections. Just a question about the
10 practicality of being able to see what's depicted there. I'm not sure if
11 there's a way of making that more visible, since it's a rather large map,
12 as it comes up on e-court.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, any practical solution for that? Is
14 it --
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm afraid we cannot do more
16 than this. We did our best. In P3 this document is contained as taken
17 from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and as transmitted to this collection by
18 the OTP. So objectively speaking we were not in a position to improve
19 this in any way. If the OTP has some technical capacity to improve this
20 further, we would gratefully accept that.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which page in the court binder of P3?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] At this moment, I haven't got P3
23 with me, but already by tomorrow I could provide you with the relevant
24 page number.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and otherwise we have to rely on the old
1 magnifying glass which will assist us in this era of -- Madam Registrar,
2 the number would be?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2039 receives number D464,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. I wanted to refer to
6 the era of the electronics.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] By your leave, Your Honour, I
9 would like to read the summary of Dusan Skrba's statement that has been
10 admitted into evidence.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it that it's even shorter than the
12 summary of the previous witness. I would say 65 ter summaries sometimes
13 assist. Please proceed.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Dusan Skrba, a witness, was born
15 in 1949 in the municipality of Ilidza near Sarajevo. Before the war
16 broke out he lived and worked in Sarajevo. During his military service,
17 he graduated from the reserve officers' school, artillery. From the 5th
18 of March, 1992, when he was mobilised as a reserve officer of the JNA, he
19 remained involved in the military practically up until the end of the
20 war. When the 1st Romanija Brigade was established, he was appointed
21 commander of the mixed artillery battalion. His unit was deployed
22 practically on the southern outskirts of Sarajevo and it supported the
23 infantry units at the front line.
24 MR. SHIN: Sorry, the witness appears to be having difficulties
25 with something in his system, the computer system I mean.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I do not know -- are there any difficulties you are
2 experiencing in this --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just wanted to say when -- that
4 this happened when the 1st Sarajevo Brigade was formed and that's where I
5 served and that's where I defended my people. That was the first one
6 that came into existence when the JNA left. It wasn't the
7 Romanija Brigade.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Skrba, apparently it has not been explained to
9 you properly what the purpose of this exercise is. Since you are not
10 telling us everything viva voce, we know what is in your statement. Now,
11 the public who is following these proceedings are not aware of what is in
12 your statement, so therefore it's just a summary, it's just a short
13 outline of what is to be found in your statement. It's not evidence.
14 You don't have to comment on it. We will focus on your statement.
15 Mr. Stojanovic, again you come with all kind of details which are
16 totally irrelevant for the purpose. The purpose exclusively is to inform
17 the public about what is approximately in the statement and where the
18 witness was born and at what time, et cetera, that's all totally
19 irrelevant. So therefore why not next time use your 65 ter summary and
20 leave it as short as that. If you would agree with that, I would read
21 the 65 ter summary, unless you have it, so that we do not lose ourselves
22 in details irrelevant for the purpose.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I'm
24 going to shorten this and it's going to be very succinct, succinctly what
25 the witness said.
1 The witness testified saying that he received orders only from
2 the command of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade and it never happened that anyone
3 went beyond the chain of command and control and he never received direct
4 orders from General Mladic. The witness said that throughout the war
5 there was a team of UNPROFOR monitors along the positions of his unit
6 throughout the war. They slept there and they were aware of each and
7 every move made by this artillery unit. The artillery piece operators
8 could only approach artillery pieces on the basis of his order. If
9 artillery fire were opened, then he'd have to inform the UN observers and
10 show them the positions that were attacked by BiH army forces. After
11 opening fire he was duty-bound to submit reports on the spot to members
12 of the observer mission of the UN.
13 This witness and all members of his unit never had any intention
14 to cause civilian casualties or terrorise the civilians in any way. This
15 witness confirms that throughout the war he never received any order,
16 orally or in writing, to attack public transportation vehicles in the
17 part of town that was under the control of the Muslim authorities. On
18 the contrary, there was a standing order stating that fire should not be
19 opened at civilian targets in the city. 99 per cent of all members of
20 his unit were inhabitants of Sarajevo. These were -- they were literally
21 the people's army, they were defending their homes.
22 Also, the witness is aware of the fact that within the positions
23 of his units within that area on the southern outskirts of Sarajevo on
24 the 28th of August 1995 when the tragedy at Markale took place, and it is
25 marked as G18 in the indictment, there were no mortars of
1 120-millimetres. The witness claims that mortars of 120-millimetre
2 calibre and above were moved out of Sarajevo, out of a diameter of 20
3 kilometres. The witness very directly states that in the area of
4 Miljevici also on the road near the village of Studankovici [phoen]
5 towards the tower at Trebevic there was not a firing position for a
6 120-millimetre mortar.
7 Your Honours, this would be a brief summary of the witness's
8 statement and with your permission I would like to put a few questions to
9 the witness.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You may do so. For the coming witnesses, unless you
11 have pointed at exceptional circumstances, the summary should be limited
12 to not than 35 lines in the transcript. That is a little bit over one
13 page of 25 lines. That's your guidance for the days to come.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Skrba, we who are not soldiers, especially not artillerymen,
17 could you please give us an explanation as to what a mixed artillery
18 battalion is?
19 A. A mixed artillery battalion consists of several different
20 artillery pieces of different calibres, and let me say it is
21 120-millimetre mortars, howitzers, VBRs, and the rest that was available
22 in my area of responsibility.
23 Q. Tell the Court specifically, during the war which weapons and
24 artillery pieces did your mixed artillery battalion have?
25 A. My unit had three batteries of howitzers, D-30, 120-millimetres,
1 four pieces respectively; also a battery of VBRs, Plamen 1 with four
2 pieces; and two mortar batteries of 120-millimetres, M-75, 12 pieces.
3 Q. I would just like for you to repeat something for me. What is
4 the area that your mixed artillery battalion defended throughout this
5 front line area?
6 A. It was a very long front line. We had two rings because we had
7 this double encirclement. The front part of the front line when we are
8 facing the city, that was from Zlatiste, Kozlja Cupula [phoen], Kovaci,
9 all the way down the Miljacka river, Dobrinja, Mojmilo, to the back side
10 of the Zeljeznica river-bed. We called this area Stari Krtelj [phoen],
11 and behind us there was Mount Igman, Trnovo, Jahorina, and the rest.
12 Q. My colleague has warned me that the last part of your answer was
13 not in the transcript and that is the position that you mentioned behind
14 you or in this outer ring, as you say?
15 A. In -- mostly so far the questions had to do with Sarajevo and
16 civilian structures, and so we're talking Zlatiste, Kozlja Cupula, Kovac,
17 along the Miljacka river via Mojmilo, Dobrinja, and then it ended with
18 the Zeljeznica river-bed. That was the inner ring. All the questions so
19 far referred to this inner area exclusively. As for the outer area where
20 we had considerable casualties is something that nobody really put any
21 questions to me about.
22 Q. Could you please give us those positions of the Bosnia and
23 Herzegovina army that were behind your positions to the south from where
24 you were exposed to artillery and other types of fire.
25 A. Until the action Lukavac 93, we had a lot of casualties from our
1 back, where the positions of the B&H army were: Igman, Treskavica,
2 Rogovi, Crna Rijeka, and others. And this is something that we were free
3 of only after the Lukavac 93 action was executed.
4 Q. In order for this to be a bit more clear to us, can we look at
5 document 1D02040 in e-court, please.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask for the
7 usher's assistance here.
8 Q. And also for you to assist us, please. Could the usher please
9 help you mark the positions that I will ask you to mark.
10 Mr. Skrba, please don't mark anything yet. We need to do that
11 step by step together with the transcript. So could you please mark
12 where the command of the 1st Artillery Division was. Perhaps if you need
13 to zoom in on to the southern sector.
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in on that section
16 a little bit more.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you are aware that once we have
18 zoomed in, we can't zoom out any further. So if we zoom in --
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's clear. I think that
20 we can zoom in once and then -- yes, that's correct, Your Honour, that
21 would be then the spot from which we will not be needing any more
23 Q. Witness, can you find your way around on this map then?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Which part you would focus on? Because it's --
25 everything is now in the middle. If you would --
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the witness
2 to mark the place where the command of the mixed artillery division was.
3 Could he please mark that with a circle.
4 Q. For the transcript, could you please tell the Trial Chamber the
5 name of this area that you marked.
6 A. This place was called Ujzojnice [phoen].
7 Q. And are you able to tell the Trial Chamber which of the pieces
8 that you mentioned that were part of the mixed artillery division were
9 situated near the command post of the mixed artillery division?
10 A. All the pieces that I mentioned, all the batteries were in an
11 area surrounding that spot some 300 metres.
12 Q. Thank you. We will now be dealing with the matter of
13 120-millimetre mortars. So I would like to ask you first to mark with a
14 circle the places where --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you first invite the witness to put letters to
16 this first circle so that we later do know what is which circle.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Of
18 course I can do that. I actually meant to do that later.
19 Q. Sir, could you please indicate -- could you put the letters KMAD
20 next to this circle.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the witness now has written different letters
24 there. Could the usher assist in removing the text and then could you
25 please clearly instruct what letters to write but we'll first remove the
1 ones we have now.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Skrba, once again could you please place the following
4 letters next to the circle, K, komanda, MAD, mixed artillery division.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. And thank you for your help.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If you permit me, Your Honour, I
8 would now like to ask the witness to mark the spots where he remembers
9 the 120-millimetre mortar batteries were located.
10 A. Should I mark those spots?
11 Q. Yes, please.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. And could you please place the letters MB-120 next to those two
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. And then I will finish my questioning today with just this
17 question: How far were the 120-millimetre mortars from the command of
18 the mixed artillery division where you were located?
19 A. 250 metres as the crow flies.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
22 stop with my examination of the witness today and I would need 20 more
23 minutes to finish my examination of this witness. And also could we save
24 this image because we will be using the document again and I would like
25 to also tender this document.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar -- now, all the markings seems to
2 have been gone. They are saved. Under what number?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2040 as marked by the witness receives
4 number D465, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And would you -- do you intend to ask the witness to
6 make further markings on it? Then we'll just mark it for identification
7 and we'll start tomorrow with it so that we have a full picture at the
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [No interpretation]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, it will be marked for
11 identification under this number.
12 Mr. Skrba, we'll adjourn for the day and I would like to instruct
13 you that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way with
14 whomever about your testimony, that is, your testimony given today or
15 testimony still to be given tomorrow. Would you please keep that in
16 mind. And then we would like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30.
17 And I suggest to the parties that we will finish the
18 examination-in-chief, then deal with the matter I indicated before, and
19 that then most likely after the first break the witness will be
21 You may follow the usher. We would like to see you back tomorrow
23 [The witness stands down]
24 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow,
25 Wednesday, the 21st of May, at 9.30 in the morning in this same
1 courtroom, I.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day of
4 May, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.