Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21300

 1                           Thursday, 22 May 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

11             No preliminaries were announced to us.  Mr. Shin, I do understand

12     that you have one hour and 20 minutes left.

13             MR. SHIN:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President, and hopefully I'll be

14     shorter than that.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Skrba.  Please be seated.

17                           WITNESS:  DUSAN SKRBA [Resumed]

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Skrba, I'd like to remind you that you're still

21     bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your

22     testimony.

23             Mr. Shin will now continue his cross-examination, and the Chamber

24     is confident that we'll conclude your testimony this morning.

25             Mr. Shin, please proceed.

Page 21301

 1             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Shin: [Continued]

 3        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Skrba.

 4        A.   Good morning.

 5        Q.   Now, yesterday we left off looking at some VRS documents.  I'd

 6     like to show you two more.

 7             MR. SHIN:  Could we please have 65 ter 30646 on the screen.

 8        Q.   Now, Mr. Skrba, as this document is coming up, I'll explain what

 9     it is.  It's a document from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps Command - now

10     you can see it there - dated the 1st of April, 1994.

11             And that's in the upper left-hand corner.  Now just -- just

12     below, we see that this is about conclusions and tasks from a briefing at

13     the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps Command on the previous day, 31st of March,

14     1994.

15             And turning briefly to the end of the document, that's the third

16     page in English and the second page in B/C/S, we can see that it's signed

17     by General Galic.

18             MR. SHIN:  If we could please turn back one page in each, so

19     page 2 in English and page 1 in B/C/S.

20        Q.   Mr. Skrba, I'd like to just direct your attention to item

21     number 8 and I'll read it:

22             "Fortify positions around Sarajevo by erecting wire and concrete

23     barriers, which would, in turn, strengthen the belief that they are

24     really blocked ('in a camp')."

25             Now we'll go to one more document and then I'll put my question

Page 21302

 1     to you.

 2             MR. SHIN:  Could we please have P327.

 3        Q.   And, Mr. Skrba, while we're waiting for that document to come up

 4     I'll explain what that is.  This is an intercept from the 25th of May,

 5     1992, between General Mladic and another individual.  Now if we could

 6     turn to page, English page 2 and B/C/S 2, and I'll let you find that --

 7     I'll give you a chance to find that on the page.  Yes, it's near the

 8     bottom third.

 9             And -- in B/C/S and I'll read the relevant passage:

10             "We have the means and the bridges with which to cross the river.

11     I have blocked Sarajevo from four corners.  The city is trapped, there is

12     no way out."

13             Now, Mr. Skrba, we've seen the first document, from General Galic

14     in 1994.  Yesterday, we saw two documents from August 1992 referring to

15     the VRS's blockade of Sarajevo.  And now we see General Mladic making it

16     clear from the very early days of this -- of this war, that the VRS had

17     Sarajevo trapped, as he put it.

18             Now, there are other documents, but let me just ask you:  Do you

19     continue to assert that these assessments of General Mladic,

20     Colonel Sipcic, General Galic, that the VRS had blockaded Sarajevo, that

21     these are all simply incorrect?

22        A.   Well, I would like to say two things here.

23             I saw the corps order and I saw the other thing.  I would like to

24     confirm what I said yesterday.  I still maintain and I still believe that

25     the BiH Army and the Presidency, if they had been blockaded, they were

Page 21303

 1     blockaded militarily, whereas the civilian life went on normally

 2     throughout the war.  People could leave across the runway and later on

 3     the tunnel was dug out, and if they so wished, they could both enter and

 4     leave.  The blockade, in my view, was a military blockade to prevent the

 5     units from leaving, and as far as the civilian population in -- is

 6     concerned, no order concerned them.

 7             I even know when the bridge on Grbavica was opened, and that was

 8     in our zone of responsibility, we allowed the civilians to cross from

 9     both sides, and the enemy side always restricted that passage.  There was

10     a window of opportunity of a couple of hours but then they had to return

11     the following evening, and that went on for a year, in 1994 and 1994 [as

12     interpreted].  I don't know the dates, but I know that such things

13     happened on that bridge.

14             In other words, the civilian population and those who needed

15     assistance were never forbidden, not for a single moment, to leave

16     freely.  And also, as you know, those who were seriously wounded could

17     not be operated on.  They were allowed to leave and to be treated outside

18     of Sarajevo.  Those who needed assistance, humanitarian assistance, they

19     were assisted, as far as I know.

20             And as for the last transcript you showed me, General Mladic and

21     those things, as you said it yourself that was on the 25th of May, and in

22     my zone of responsibility I assumed my responsibilities from the JNA on

23     the 27th.  I was not in command position at that time, and also, I never

24     attended any briefings at the corps command.  Therefore, I don't know

25     what was going on.  I can only testify based on what you say, because I

Page 21304

 1     never attended any briefings.  I was never invited to any briefings

 2     because my position and my duties were within the framework of the

 3     brigade.

 4        Q.   So, Mr. Skrba, your testimony to this Court is that civilian life

 5     continued on normally as before the war.

 6        A.   No, I didn't say that.  I didn't say that the -- that life was

 7     normal.  However, what I said was that the Presidency of

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina could cross the territory in control of the Army of

 9     Republika Srpska.  They could leave freely and they could go in a desired

10     direction.

11        Q.   I'm going to move onto a different topic now, Mr. Skrba.

12             MR. SHIN:  But, first, as Ms. Stewart has correctly reminded me,

13     can we please tender 65 ter 30646.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30646 receives number P6523,

16     Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. SHIN:

19        Q.   Mr. Skrba, in your testimony in the Karadzic case, you were asked

20     about the neighbourhood of Bjelave and this is what you said when the

21     Prosecutor asked you:

22             "Can you describe the general nature of this area, please."

23             You said:

24             "This is a civilian area almost 100 per cent.  I think the

25     buildings are mostly residential buildings but some are perhaps also

Page 21305

 1     collectively owned buildings."

 2             Do you stand by your testimony in the Karadzic case?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   Now, you testified yesterday, during questions from Defence

 5     counsel, that in the area of Bjelave, the ABiH had 120-millimetre mobile

 6     mortars mounted on a vehicle, and you tried to neutralize that fire.  So

 7     you fired into that area Bjelave, did you not?

 8        A.   We fired on the position where that 120-millimetre mortar was,

 9     and it was regular military target because, from there, it opened fire on

10     our positions.

11        Q.   And you had said it was a mobile mortar.  Now, what did you use

12     to fire at it?

13        A.   120-millimetre.

14        Q.   So you fired 120-millimetre mortar into Bjelave?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And you told us yesterday that that was an anti-personnel weapon.

17        A.   It is also used to destroy small artillery weapons in order to

18     prevent it from firing at us.

19        Q.   So you accepted the risk of civilian casualties?

20        A.   For as long as that mortar was firing from there, I had to

21     respond.  I had to neutralize it so it would stop firing on our positions

22     and on our lines.

23        Q.   Now, in your statement - and Your Honours that's paragraph 24 -

24     there's a section that's headed:  "Incident G6."  And it begins:

25             "The incident of 22 January 1994 in Alipasino Polje was explained

Page 21306

 1     to me.  It was also explained to me that the Defence team claimed that

 2     the incoming trajectory of the alleged 120-millimetre mortar shell had

 3     been south-west and that the most probable place of firing was a facility

 4     which I recognised as the Butmir agricultural estate."

 5             So clearly it was the Defence team that gave you this explanation

 6     for the origin of fire; is that correct?

 7        A.   No, not the origin of fire.  They just showed me a transcript to

 8     demonstrate that there was an incident in Alipasino Polje and what

 9     happened there, and then I said that if it was in the south-west, then,

10     from that sector, from the firing positions, in the territory held by the

11     Muslim forces, that would have been Butmir.  And I know that very well

12     because even before the war, we went there and we carried out

13     mobilisation efforts and we prepared the troops of the former JNA and

14     that's why I knew that the firing positions of 120-millimetre mortars

15     were originally planned to be there.

16        Q.   Mr. Skrba, let me just go back to something you just said.

17             You were shown a transcript.  What transcript were you shown?

18        A.   The statement that I provided last time and when I testified in

19     the Karadzic case.

20        Q.   And in that statement as well, you explained that it was

21     explained to you by the Defence team; correct?

22        A.   The Defence team asked me about that.  And then from my point of

23     view, from my professional point of view, I showed them where

24     approximately those positions could have been and where fire could have

25     been opened from.  Because that territory was held by the enemy forces

Page 21307

 1     throughout the war; the BiH Army, that is.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask a few questions.

 3             First of all, do you have any personal knowledge about this

 4     incident?  No?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Second:  Have you any information available to you

 7     that would explain the distance from which the shell you were told about

 8     was fired?  You say in your statement that it was explained to that you

 9     it was fired from a southwesterly direction.

10             Did you -- do you have any reliable information as to distance?

11     I mean, 500 metres, 3 kilometres, 6 kilometres?  Do you have any reliable

12     information about that?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm familiar with the area because

14     I grew up there.  That's why I am familiar with the distances.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No, the distance from which the shell was fired, I'm

16     talking about, not the distance between the place of impact and Butmir or

17     any other.  But do you have any reliable information about that shell and

18     from what distance it was fired, apart from what direction it was fired?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I wasn't there.  It

20     was in the enemy territory.  Alipasino Polje is where the shell fell.  I

21     didn't carry out an on-site investigation.  Experts went there in order

22     to ascertain the angle and the distance.  I wasn't among them.  I didn't

23     go there.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You have no knowledge about that?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not inspect those records.

Page 21308

 1     They were never available to me.  And I was not interested in that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, whether the distance was such that it

 3     would or could have been fired from Butmir, you have no knowledge about

 4     that either; is that correct?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether it was fired

 6     and from what distance, but I assume if they say south-west, I assume

 7     that it was approximately from that location.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's move on to the next subject, Mr. Shin.

 9             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10        Q.   Mr. Skrba, you also address in your statement an incident G7 and

11     again this part of your statement begins:

12             "It was explained to me that on 4th February 1994 there was an

13     alleged incident at Dobrinja."

14             Now, who was it that explained this to you?

15        A.   I read it in the papers.  They themselves explained it, and they

16     made it known in the media, and I learned about this incident here, at

17     the Tribunal.  At my location, Lima 5, there was a permanent team and if

18     such incidents happened those teams and their bosses came to me and they

19     investigated and they --

20        Q.   Mr. Skrba, I'm sorry to interrupt.  My question to you was:  You

21     said, "It was explained to me ..."  Now, is your answer about who

22     explained that to you that you meant you read it in the newspaper?  Is

23     that what that phrase means:  "It was explained to me"?

24        A.   When I testified in the Karadzic case, they asked me whether I

25     was aware of that incident, and that was when I learnt about that

Page 21309

 1     incident.

 2        Q.   That appears in your Karadzic statement as well.  But I'll move

 3     on.

 4             For incident G --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin --

 6             MR. SHIN:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Skrba, a while ago you said, "I read it in the

 8     papers."  That is not papers published at the time of your Karadzic

 9     testimony, was it?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was before.  Those papers were

11     published after the Dayton Accords.  Every such incident that happened,

12     Mr. President, they wrote about it in the papers, they showed it on TV,

13     usually on the anniversary of the events --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me then read again one of your last answers.

15             "When I testified in the Karadzic case, they asked me whether I

16     was aware of that incident, and that was when I learnt about that

17     incident."

18             So on the one hand, you say, "I read it in the newspapers"; on

19     another moment you say, "I learned it during my testimony in Karadzic,"

20     which is not fully consistent.

21             Any explanation for that?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I testified in the Karadzic I

23     learned about that incident.  In the meantime, every year they mark the

24     anniversaries of those incidents.  They obviously have programmes on TV

25     to remind everybody of what happened, that -- and I'm talking about the

Page 21310

 1     television and newspapers of the BiH Federation.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Shin.

 3             MR. SHIN:

 4        Q.   Mr. Skrba, you just said right now that you learned of this when

 5     you testified in the Karadzic case.  But isn't it a fact that actually

 6     that was in your statement presented to the Karadzic Court so, therefore,

 7     it was a matter addressed before your testimony?

 8        A.   In preparations for the testimony in the Karadzic case, before I

 9     came to testify, actually.

10        Q.   And, Mr. Skrba, for this incident that you refer to as G18, in

11     your statement this part also begins:  "It was explained to me ..."

12             Now, again I'm asking you, was it the Defence team who explained

13     that to you?

14        A.   No.  It was Mr. Karadzic, when I talked to him in preparations

15     for my testimony in the Karadzic case.

16             MR. SHIN:  No further questions -- I'm sorry, one moment, please.

17                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

18             MR. SHIN:  I'm sorry, I do have perhaps one more question.

19        Q.   Mr. Skrba, could you please tell this Court what exactly it was

20     that Mr. Karadzic said to you.

21        A.   He asked me -- or, rather, he read out to me what the Prosecutor

22     asked him, about the incidents, and I said that I didn't know about those

23     incidents, but I -- we talked about where the shell could have come from

24     and I told him where fire could have been opened from, approximately.

25     And then the following year, they actually marked the event.

Page 21311

 1        Q.   But, once again, you did not personally have any knowledge of

 2     these incidents, did you?

 3        A.   No, no.

 4             MR. SHIN:  No further questions, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Shin.

 6             Mr. Stojanovic, any need to reexamine the witness?

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just briefly, Your Honour, with

 8     your leave.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

10                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Just a couple of questions, Mr. Skrba.

12             I'll start with the last things first, i.e., I'm going to ask you

13     about incidents G6 and G7.

14             From the positions where you were and where your units were --

15     where your unit was deployed, I'm talking about the MAD, could you

16     observe the positions of the BiH Army in Butmir?

17        A.   Yes, all the way up to Hrasnica.  When they opened fire you could

18     see detonations from their weapons.

19        Q.   And throughout the war, and I'm particularly interested in 1994,

20     did you observe that fire was opened on the positions of the Army of

21     Republika Srpska from Butmir?

22        A.   Yes, I could see that from our observation posts which were about

23     5- to 600 metres high.  You did not need an optical instrument, you could

24     see it with the naked eye.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel and witness be alerted to the

Page 21312

 1     fact that they speak the same language and that they should make a pause.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Pause between question and answer and answer and

 3     question.

 4             Mr. Stojanovic, let's -- let's resume from where the witness said

 5     that he did not need instruments but that he could see it with the naked

 6     eye.  Could you resume from there.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   The question was:  And from that position, from the agricultural

 9     institute at Butmir, did the BiH Army open fire on the positions of the

10     VRS?

11        A.   Yes.  We're talking about the agricultural institute in Butmir,

12     and, yes, they did.

13        Q.   When the situation calmed down after the war, did you ever go to

14     that position personally?

15        A.   I personally went by on two occasions.  I was curious I'm

16     resident of Ilidza, and in that location and in some other locations, we

17     saw some ammunition crates, some leftovers from the war activities.

18        Q.   And now we'll finish with the following question.

19             As you are looking towards Alipasino Polje, where was the

20     artillery of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Butmir?

21        A.   It was in the south, south-west direction.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, excuse me.  I don't understand the

23     question.  As you are looking towards Alipasino Polje, where was the

24     artillery of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25             Are you able to determine the direction by looking at the

Page 21313

 1     direction; or are you saying when he's positioned at that place at

 2     Alipasino Polje?  It depends which way I'm facing when I'm looking and

 3     I'm not quite sure I understand this question.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll try to rephrase.

 5        Q.   If I am standing at Alipasino Polje, to which side from the

 6     viewpoint of Alipasino Polje would be the agricultural complex of Butmir?

 7        A.   To the west, south-west.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And since you are a native of that area, would you

 9     tell me what is the distance, as the crow flies, from the broader area of

10     Alipasino Polje to the agricultural complex in Butmir?

11        A.   As the crow flies?  2 or 2 and a half kilometres.  And those were

12     the ideal positions for mortars.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now call up in e-court

14     P4435, page 2.  Or, rather, let us look at the first page to see what the

15     document is.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue there, I'm waiting for the --

17     waiting for that to appear on our screens, if I read your statement well,

18     Mr. Skrba, you first imagined what would be the probable place of firing,

19     and I'm talking about this incident in Alipasino Polje, whereas you had

20     no information whatsoever about from what distance that shell was fired.

21     And then you say:

22             "According to my information, this area is ideal as firing space

23     for mortars of all calibres."

24             But there's no basis whatsoever to assume that that shell was

25     fired from Butmir, was there?  Apart from that it is in the direction

Page 21314

 1     from the impact it's -- it's all speculation, pure speculation.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You understood me perfectly well.

 3     I just supposed, since it was from west/south-west, that it was there.

 4     Because we used to be one army, Muslims, Croats, and Serbs, and before,

 5     when we had military drills, we came there together for training, and I

 6     know that from before the war, from military drills.  I had colleagues,

 7     Croats and Muslims, who were there in those positions during military

 8     exercises before the war, when we had war games.  That's -- that's how I

 9     made this assumption.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Did your army have positions, mortar positions, in

11     the area of Nedzarici?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't go there during the

13     war.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't ask you whether you went there.  I asked

15     you whether your army had positions there.  If you say, "I don't know,"

16     fine, then you don't know.  If you do know, tell us.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know their positions or

18     whether they had positions.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I am asking about your positions, VRS.  In the

20     Nedzarici area.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I said.  Those were

22     positions of the battalion which was part of the Ilidza Brigade, and they

23     had their own commander.  I don't know.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  What I -- what strikes me is that you have no

25     problem in speculating to what happened on the other side, whereas, when

Page 21315

 1     I ask you about your own positions nearby, you do not speculate.  You

 2     say, "I don't know, I didn't go there."

 3             You understand what I'm telling you, that you're expounding quite

 4     a bit on how well it could have been fired from the opposite without any

 5     factual knowledge, whereas, as far as your own positions, you say, "I

 6     don't know."

 7             I just wanted to put to that you to give you an opportunity to

 8     explain this if there's any explanation you'd like to give.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Normally I know about my unit

10     within the Sarajevo Brigade, and that's my primary concern.

11             As for our units and other brigades, they had a different

12     deployment and different formations.  During the war I had no time to

13     tour the neighbouring positions of the VRS to see how they deployed,

14     where they positioned mortars or howitzers.  That's why I wasn't really

15     knowledgeable about the positions of our army around me.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Apparently you missed the point I wanted to

17     make, and, therefore, we leave it to that at this moment.

18             Mr. Stojanovic, any further questions in relation to the document

19     which is now on our screen?

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I didn't even begin on this

21     topic, on this document, but let us look at the next page, the passage

22     used by the Prosecution in the cross-examination, and then I will have a

23     few questions.

24        Q.   Mr. Skrba, if you remember, you were asked yesterday about this

25     paragraph, command and control.  I have just a couple of questions.

Page 21316

 1             Until what time were you effectively a mobilised person in the

 2     JNA?

 3        A.   Until 26 May 1992.

 4        Q.   Tadija Manojlovic, who signed this document, if you remember, was

 5     he an active-duty officer of the then-JNA?

 6        A.   Yes, he was a retired colonel.  A professional officer.

 7        Q.   Now please look at this paragraph.  I'll ask you a question in

 8     this context.  In his report, in his analysis, he says:

 9             "The ARJ - artillery rockets unit's command and control - may be

10     divided into two periods:  The first from the beginning of the war until

11     20th May 1992, and the second one from that date until today.  During the

12     first period - that means until 20th May 1992 - we managed to withdraw

13     all the equipment, vehicles and ammunition from the barracks in a timely

14     manner and have them positioned around Sarajevo.  The MAD of the Sarajevo

15     Mechanized Brigade, which was a component part of the then-4th Corps, had

16     in their ranks the largest number of active-duty officers and soldiers."

17             Now I'm asking you:  This reference to active-duty officers and

18     soldiers, is this a reference to the period until the 20th May 1992, when

19     the JNA still existed?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You say that within your MAD in the Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade,

22     there was not a single active-duty officer.  Do you mean that was the

23     case from the establishment of the brigade, from the 20th May 1992?

24        A.   That's what I meant.  After they left the barracks, all the

25     officers who were not natives of Republika Srpska left Bosnia and

Page 21317

 1     Herzegovina, and I had only one superior, Simic.  Otherwise, in my

 2     brigade, there were no NCOs or officers.  They were just local people

 3     from the environs of Sarajevo.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Skrba, for this explanation.  I have nothing

 5     further.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin, has this triggered any need for further

 7     questions?

 8             MR. SHIN:  No, it has not, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  One second.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we excuse the witness, there's one issue that

12     came to the mind of the Judges, which is the following.

13             An important part of the testimony of this witness is that a

14     firing position was close to an observation post and that they always

15     explained to the observers what they were doing, that they were only

16     firing in response.

17             Now, the Chamber wonders whether not the testimony of this

18     witness would have been strengthened by producing those observers'

19     reports who would say:  They came to us today and asked whether they

20     could fire in that direction a response of, or they told us that there

21     was -- they were fired at and they responded to that fire.  I mean, those

22     reports could either strongly support or not support, we do not know, the

23     testimony of this witness, and the Chamber wondered whether the parties

24     could find reports.  I think the witness talked about Lima 5.  So is

25     there any reporting?  Can it be produced so that the Chamber would be

Page 21318

 1     better able to assess the reliability of the evidence the witness has

 2     given?

 3             I'm just looking at the parties at this moment.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, we certainly do look to see anything

 5     that might contradict the witness and that might be relevant to the

 6     witness's testimony --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, not only contradict --

 8             MR. GROOME:  Yes, no --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you see -- the Chamber is not seeking material

10     that would contradict what the witness said but which --

11             MR. GROOME:  No, I misspoke, Your Honour.  I meant relevant to

12     it.  Given the Chamber's inquiry, we'll make a specific investigation

13     into this matter.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And Mr. Stojanovic.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

16     Our investigation followed that direction because that corroborates the

17     testimony of today's witness in paragraph 8.  And I am sure that through

18     our further work and with future witnesses, we will add to this evidence.

19             Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you be able to report, well, let's say, within

21     the next month on this issue, or the next six weeks before the summer

22     recess?

23             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, with respect to this particular witness

24     and his evidence, we will give you a report next week.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

Page 21319

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] By the recess, I think we will

 2     have done -- sorry, by the adjournment, we will do that.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know what adjournment you're talking about

 4     at this very moment, but ... I mean, the witness will be excused today,

 5     so whether the material which could be submitted to the Chamber, whether

 6     that would have any consequences, of course, is a matter still to be

 7     considered, once you have seen it, once we may have seen it.

 8             Then, Mr. Skrba, this concludes your testimony in this Court.

 9     I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and

10     for having answered all the questions, whether these were questions put

11     to you by the parties or questions put to you by the Bench.  I wish you a

12     safe return home again, and you may follow the usher.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  And we can

14     assist you.  There are teams that stayed with us, I didn't want to

15     mention it, but I will help the Defence team get in contact with the

16     observers who had spent time with us, and maybe they can take their

17     statements too.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I -- it's appreciated that you want to assist, at

19     least one party in these proceedings, but I think there are -- there may

20     be reports already in existence.  But don't take any action in that

21     respect and leave it to the parties, as the Chamber does at this moment

22     as well.

23             You may follow the usher.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25                           [The witness withdrew]

Page 21320

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  This is a bit shorter than we anticipated, and our

 3     witness will be here at half past 10.00.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I suggest that we take an early break.  Yes,

 5     and we would then resume at 20 minutes to 11.00, so the witness would

 6     have been here for ten minutes by then.

 7             We take a break and resume at 20 minutes to 11.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 10.43 a.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The Defence is ready to call its next witness now he

11     has arrived, Mr. Lukic?

12             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we are ready, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And that would be Branko Radan.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, that's right.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No protective measures.

16             MR. LUKIC:  No protective measures.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Radan.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Radan, before you give evidence, the Rules

22     require that you make a solemn declaration.  May I invite you to make

23     that declaration, of which the text is now handed out to you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 21321

 1                           WITNESS:  BRANKO RADAN

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Radan.

 4             Mr. Radan, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You'll find

 5     him to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 6             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I just noticed that

 8     Mr. Radan has a -- some documents in front of him and if the Prosecution

 9     wants to examine those documents -- it's the statement and the documents

10     probably we worked with.  So if the Prosecution wants to inspect if

11     there's anything written on the documents, they are free to do so.

12             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, if we could take just a brief look,

13     that would be appreciated.  Thank you very much.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please, with the assistance of the usher,

15     give whatever is before you for inspection.  And I would like to ask you

16     not to consult any documents without having informed the Chamber that you

17     wish to do so and without having received approval to do it, and we would

18     then ask you, most likely, what the document is you would like to

19     consult.

20             Ms. Bibles.

21             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, I think I understand the layout of the

22     documents.  My only question is that within the documents there appears

23     to be an original handwritten note.  I would simply -- I can't read it.

24     But I would simply inquire as to the contents of the note.  That seems to

25     be the only thing that -- that doesn't fit within the categories.

Page 21322

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, if the witness would not consult any of

 2     the documents, then, of course, it's not very relevant to know what is in

 3     the handwritten note.

 4                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 5             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, if we could simply be provided with a

 6     copy of the handwritten note at some point today.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Actually, all I need with the witness to stay is his

 8     statement, so everything else can be removed.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  If then a clean copy of the statement could

10     be provided --

11             MR. LUKIC:  It's clean.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  It's clean.  But, then, Mr. Lukic, could you please,

13     with the assistance of the usher, then select what exactly -- because I

14     see it is a bit of a bundle.  Could you please select what you consider

15     and all the rest then should be -- if you would show what the witness has

16     selected, Mr. Usher, to Mr. Lukic, if that's the -- exclusively the

17     statement, then we are there.

18             Mr. Lukic, all the rest, perhaps you later return it to the

19     witness because it's his property.  I don't know whether he wants you to

20     read his handwritten notes or not.

21             So you -- all the rest is with Mr. Lukic.  You'll get it back - I

22     would say, when we have the first break, it can be returned to the

23     witness - and you have now a copy of your statement available to you.

24             Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 21323

 1                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Radan.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4        Q.   We did not have time to meet up earlier today.  I was busy in the

 5     Defence room, and I apologise for that.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we pull up 1D1608 on the

 7     screen.  It's Mr. Radan's statement.

 8        Q.   We see page 1 of this document on the screen.  Do you recognise

 9     the signature?

10        A.   Yes, it's my signature.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we see the last page.

12        Q.   Is this also your signature?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we briefly see page 4 in the

15     B/C/S and page 4 in English.  We should focus on paragraph 21, and what

16     we need is on page 5 in English.  I just wanted to show the

17     paragraph begins on page 4.

18        Q.   You told me, Mr. Radan, that the name of the hotel on this page

19     is wrong.  It says "Central Hotel."  What should be the name?

20        A.   Hotel Bristol.

21        Q.   So after this correction, does this statement faithfully reflect

22     what you've told the Defence team?

23        A.   What's missing is an elevation from which there was sniper fire

24     against the population at Vrace and Grbavica almost on a daily basis.  So

25     from three sides we were shelled and sniped at every day, and we had just

Page 21324

 1     a narrow exit from Grbavica and Vrace towards Lukavica and

 2     Mount Trebevic.

 3        Q.   Where would this correction be, in which paragraph?

 4        A.   It would be in paragraph 21, because it deals with sniper fire.

 5        Q.   After these corrections, does your statement --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the witness said that an elevation is

 7     missing.  Does that elevation have a name?  Then we could --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Mm-hm.  He told us the name, that it is probably

 9     missed.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] What's the name of this elevation from which the

11     sniper fired?

12        A.   Asimovo Brdo.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was not on the transcript, if I -- yes.

14     Thank you.

15             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC:  If I can assist, I would spell the name.  It's almost

17     correct, but it's -- the name of the hill is A-s-i-m-o-v-o.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Now we have all the details.  Please proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] So after these corrections, Mr. Radan, does your

21     written statement faithfully reflect what you said to the Defence team of

22     General Mladic?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   If I were to ask you the same questions, would you give the same

25     answers?

Page 21325

 1        A.   With these additions, everything remains the same.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I should like to tender

 3     Mr. Radan's statement.

 4             MS. BIBLES:  No objection.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1608 receives number D466,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 9                           [Defence counsel confer]

10             MR. LUKIC:  I would have few more questions for this witness,

11     Your Honour --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

13             MR. LUKIC:  -- but before that I would read the summary.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  A short summary.

15             MR. LUKIC:  I hope it will fit into 32 lines, or 35 lines.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's three lines extra.  Please proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             To speed up a bit, I'll read in English.  Branko Radan was born

19     in Topljik, Novo Sarajevo municipality.  After the multi-party elections,

20     he noticed the boundaries between the people of the three nationalities

21     become thicker and deeper.  There were already talks about the arming of

22     Muslims and the formation of units of the Green Berets and

23     Patriotic League.  He saw groups of young men wearing green berets

24     walking around town, and shots fired from infantry weapons were heard in

25     the evening.  Unlike the Muslims and Croats, the Serbs were not arming

Page 21326

 1     and preparing for war.

 2             At the start of the war, Mr. Radan, Branko, was president of the

 3     executive authority, Executive Board of Novo Sarajevo municipality.

 4     Municipality authorities took the stand that were -- that there must not

 5     be any discrimination, and, in particular, no torture or abuse of the

 6     non-Serbian population and security should be guaranteed to all.  There

 7     was a group of nine Serb -- Serbian men who created major problems for

 8     Muslims and Croats in the area.  The executive authority, following

 9     several meetings, requested and demanded that the nine men be removed

10     from the Grbavica area by local police organs.  Eventually they were

11     removed.

12             Whatever humanitarian aid arrived in the municipality, it was

13     distributed equally among the different ethnicities in the municipality.

14             Grbavica was shelled from the Muslim side with increasing

15     frequency, but most victims were killed by sniper fire from the Muslim

16     side.  For protection against that, the inhabitants of Grbavica used to

17     erect blinds several metres tall.  Due to difficult material situation of

18     the people, the executive authority made use of the humanitarian aid to

19     organise people's kitchen, public kitchen, where the Serbs, Muslims, and

20     Croats households obtained food without any problem.

21             That would be the summary, but I would pose a few additional

22     questions to this witness, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Radan, could you please take a look at

Page 21327

 1     paragraph 19 of your statement.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So what we need on the screen is

 3     65 ter 1D1608.

 4        Q.   So paragraph 19, this is what you say there:  You say that all

 5     Croats and Muslims who were in the territory of Novo Sarajevo received

 6     pensions and humanitarian aid from the Serb authorities.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now, in relation to this paragraph,

 8     let us take a look at 1D2120.

 9             This is a press release by SRNA.  Could we please focus on the

10     second paragraph.  We need the second sentence.  In B/C/S, it starts with

11     "otklanjaju," and in English with the words, "all the difficulties".

12             So we see here that a press release was issued.  It is the

13     22nd of July, 1992.  And it says in this document:

14             "All the difficulties that the citizens had are being effectively

15     dealt with, regardless of their nationality."

16        Q.   At the time, did you have the opportunity of seeing this

17     document?

18        A.   Yes.  A copy was provided to me as well.

19             May I give my comment with regard to paragraph 19 and also may I

20     say something about the press release of SRNA?  We, in Grbavica and in

21     Vrace, in this urban part of Novo Sarajevo, we took a certain position.

22     At that moment, there were 2.000 Muslims, and perhaps 300 or 400 Croats.

23             At the very outset, we collected all the certificates stating who

24     had been entitled to a pension before the war.  Such persons

25     automatically became entitled to receive a pension, not only Serbs but

Page 21328

 1     also Croats and Muslims.  That was a way of avoiding discrimination

 2     against these persons who stayed with us.  Because if we think that if we

 3     took the right attitude when we made every effort to remain in

 4     Yugoslavia, a common state, when all of that failed, then we decided to

 5     defend what we believed was ours and in our territory.  If these people

 6     remained in our territory, then, in my view, they gave more legality and

 7     legitimacy to us by virtue of the fact that they stayed on, so they were

 8     entitled to social insurance, to the food that was organised in soup

 9     kitchens and so on, so they were in the same position as the Serbs were.

10     This letter that was given by Mr. Sipcic to SRNA confirms that our

11     position was correct and that the way we treated our fellow citizens was

12     proper.

13        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned this, I think, but maybe it wasn't

14     clear.  I just want to ask you whether Muslims and Croats also received

15     medical assistance?

16        A.   Absolutely.  At the health centre in Grbavica they enjoyed the

17     same rights.  After all, at the medical centre in Grbavica, we had an

18     excellent lady doctor, an ethnic Muslim, Dr. Mirsada.  She was a

19     pediatrician.  She stayed there throughout the war.  Attempts were made

20     to remove her from there but I said very explicitly:  Only when you bring

21     a Serb who is a better doctor, then we are going to find a new job for

22     Mrs. Mirsada.  To this day she comes to Lukavica and our Serb children go

23     to her, to Grbavica, so that she can treat them.  This is exceptional

24     confidence that was instilled in people while she worked there in

25     Grbavica.

Page 21329

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, most part of the answer is already in the

 2     statement, so there's no need, Mr. Radan, to repeat what we found already

 3     in your statement, such as the story of Dr. Mirsada.

 4             Have you dealt with the document?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, yes, Your Honour.  I would just --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- one additional question.

 9             The -- this press -- what seems to be a kind of a press release,

10     but it also reads:

11             "The number of citizens returning the illegally obtained property

12     to the authorities is higher and higher."

13             Who obtained illegally property?  Because it's -- it's totally

14     unclear to me what is referred to here.  Could you explain why, when, by

15     whom, property was illegally obtained?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Individuals who thought that the

17     war would be over very quickly and what they obtained in an unfair way

18     would remain theirs.  However, the police and the military police took

19     action with the assistance of the civilian authorities or, rather, on the

20     recommendation of the civilian authorities.  It was stated over our radio

21     that this property should be returned, and that those who intend to

22     return that should return that to the military police and that it should

23     be recorded accordingly.  Certain individuals did return these stolen

24     goods, that would be the right word, that did not belong to them.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And individuals.  What do I have to think

Page 21330

 1     about?  Were these housewives who went around stealing property of

 2     others?  Or what -- what is the reference to these individuals?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mostly the male population,

 4     military conscripts or civilians who did not have military obligation.

 5     Also there were housewives that had no other way of getting supplies and

 6     that is how they obtained supplies or, rather, that is how they met their

 7     needs.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And was there any division as far as ethnicity is

 9     concerned?  Was it Croats rather than Muslims, or Serbs rather than

10     Croats?  Who -- who illegally obtained property?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would be insincere if I were to

12     say that the Serbs were not the most numerous.  So the Serbs were

13     certainly the most numerous in terms of the commission of these unlawful

14     activities on the ground.  Croats and Muslims, I think, were fearful in

15     this situation, which is only natural, and I don't think that they were

16     not so inclined to take such action.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And property was taken from other Serbs or from

18     Croats or Muslims or equally divided?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, for the most part, the

20     others.  Serbs from non-Serbs.  That was the objective.  So if people

21     would find out at a given point in time that the owner of an apartment

22     was not there, then that was dealt with very quickly.  Or, rather, things

23     were prevented by way of military action, military police, civilian

24     police, so attempts were made to stop such things.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that clarifies, to some extent, this document.

Page 21331

 1             This was presented by you, Mr. Lukic, in relation to paragraph 19

 2     of the statement.  Could you have a look at paragraph 19 of the statement

 3     because, irrespective of your questions, could you read it again,

 4     Mr. Radan.  The paragraph states, and you repeated that a minute ago,

 5     that -- and why Croats and Muslims in Novo Sarajevo received their

 6     pensions and humanitarian aid.  And then it continues by saying:

 7             "As part of that, an exchange was organised when 15 to 20 buses

 8     with Serbs left Sarajevo, and this was on the Vrbanja bridge."

 9             I have difficulties in linking the provision of pensions and

10     humanitarian aids to Croats and Muslims with an exchange where 15 to

11     20 buses with Serbs left Sarajevo.  I -- I didn't understand the relation

12     between the two matters mentioned here.

13             Could you explain how this -- the one would be a part of the

14     other?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will try.  There's a mention of

16     15 to 20 buses here.  This is mentioned by way of affirming the good will

17     that existed.  That is to say, Serbs, in their territory, showed good

18     will.  They did not carry out an aggression against the Croats and

19     Muslims.  They enjoyed the same rights.

20             There is the reference to 15 or 20 buses here.  They did not

21     leave.  Well, they did not leave then.  They did not leave Sarajevo then

22     but only on the 15th of November, 1992.  That was afterwards.

23             May I explain this completely?  Well, then I'd have to go into a

24     completely different paragraph.  That has to do the 30th of September.

25     The Muslims going from Grbavica to Sarajevo.  So all of that is

Page 21332

 1     interlinked.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because if you talk about an exchange, then,

 3     of course, I would like to know what was exchanged against what.  The

 4     paragraph is unclear on that.

 5             Perhaps, Mr. Lukic, if at any later point, or Ms. Bibles, could

 6     seek clarification of what exactly the link between the two events is,

 7     which, as I now understand, was at a later stage.  What was exchanged and

 8     how the one is an expression of the good will which is expressed by the

 9     pensions as well.

10             I leave it to the parties at this moment to further clarify, but

11     it's unclear to me.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Now that we're on the subject, Mr. Radan, could

15     you please explain to us and the Court so that we don't have to go back

16     to that --

17        A.   Yes, precisely.  Now why am I saying that this is linked to the

18     30th?  First of all, it wasn't an exchange.  There was no exchange.

19     These crossings-over did not have to do with an exchange.  What happened

20     on 30th of October, 1992, when the Muslims crossed the Vrbanja bridge in

21     the morning at 0615, that was agreement reached on the spot between the

22     Serb and Muslim side.  There was this internal agreement reached, that is

23     to say, neighbours agreed at the front line, the Jewish cemetery,

24     Gornji Kovacici, Donji Kovacici, Vrbanja bridge, they could not take the

25     fire that was there every day.

Page 21333

 1             Serbs removed part of their families to other houses where their

 2     friends and relatives lived.  The Muslims had nowhere else to go so on

 3     the 30th of September, in the morning at 0615, the Muslims crossed the

 4     Vrbanja bridge.  That had been agreed upon.  So in that way, some signal

 5     was given to the other side in Sarajevo too.  And then it shows that

 6     immediately that morning, at 0620, on the east river, this piece of news

 7     was carried.

 8             So why am I linking this, why am I saying that this is a goodwill

 9     gesture?  On the 15th of November, that is to say, a month and a half

10     later, 20 buses of Serbs left Sarajevo through Lukavica and went to Pale,

11     Serbia, and so on.  That is to say, without any problem whatsoever.  They

12     left the other side and came to our territory.  But it was not an

13     exchange.  It was simply a gesture of good will.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for the latter part of your answer, it was a

15     gesture of good will that you received those Serbs which were leaving the

16     Presidency-controlled side and went to Pale.  Is -- or -- because I see

17     your point, that you say:  We allowed Muslims to leave at 0615 in the

18     morning over the Vrbanja bridge.  I see that -- that apparently you

19     interpret this as meeting their wishes, if I understand you well.

20             Now, how do I have to understand the 20 buses of Serbs as an

21     expression of your good intentions?  Is that by receiving them or by --

22     it's a bit unclear to me.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a response to our good will,

24     the good will of the Serb side.  That is to say, this statement that we,

25     the authorities, allowed them to cross over on the 30th of September.

Page 21334

 1     That's not right.  Because we did not take part in these discussions.

 2     The authorities did not take part in that at all.  This was an internal

 3     agreement reached on the spot.  Neighbours agreed to do such and such a

 4     thing.

 5             Now, this was done well.  There was no reaction on the other

 6     side.  No one said that there was expulsion or this or that.  Then our

 7     response to this good will, the fact that we allowed people -- or,

 8     rather, that they agreed of their own free will to cross over to the

 9     other side and then they allowed those buses full of Serbs to leave

10     Sarajevo, so we did not receive anyone.  This is just a gesture.  That is

11     where their hold was no longer so firm, that of their government, that

12     they would not allow anyone to leave Sarajevo.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So there was good will on both sides, letting

14     those leave and this was not organised by the authorities but was,

15     rather, organised by the people themselves, if I understand you well.

16     And the first gesture was from the Serb side and then later, from the

17     other side, a similar gesture was made.

18             Mr. Lukic, to say that this was --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We could not hear the

20     witness.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat what you said.  I interrupted.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In these two cases, yes, good will

23     was expressed.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, to say that this story becomes

25     immediately clear from reading paragraph 19, I would say it doesn't.

Page 21335

 1     Statements should provide us with information which assists us in

 2     understanding what the witness's testimony is.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I agree, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  I would just offer this document for

 7     admission.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2120 receives number D467,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I might just ask a question with respect to

14     this paragraph 19.

15             Sir, what year are we talking about when this Serbian authorities

16     gave Muslims and Croats pensions and humanitarian aid?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Immediately at the beginning of

18     1992.  It was in July, when we collected proof and evidence of the right

19     to pension.  It was in July of 1992.  From then on, they kept on

20     receiving their retirement dues.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So as early as July 1992, this area was already

22     being controlled by Serbian authorities?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Had it always been like that before?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, earlier we were not divided

Page 21336

 1     and there were no divisions by where people lived.  But we're talking

 2     about a majority, a majority Serbian population lived there.  Most of the

 3     people were Serbs but previously nobody paid attention to that.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm talking about the authorities.  When did the

 5     authorities become exclusively Serb?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exclusively Serb, in 1992, when we

 7     were no longer allowed to use our Assembly building and all of its

 8     resources.  Lines had been drawn, and the municipality building and the

 9     church were on the other side of the Miljacka river which means we had to

10     establish a new government, authorities, infrastructure, everything that

11     was needed to enable the functioning of the civilian authorities.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have a short follow-up question in that

14     respect.

15             Sir, you said:

16             "From July 1992 on, they," the Croats and Muslims, "kept on

17     receiving their retirement dues. "

18             How long did that -- or up to which moment was that the case?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They kept receiving their pension

20     money for as long as they stayed in our territory.  For as long as they

21     were in our territory until reintegration.  And then when the territory

22     was reintegrated, they continued claiming their rights wherever they

23     decided to stay and reside.  And the reintegration was in 1996.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Those who stayed there received the pensions

25     throughout the war; is that correct?

Page 21337

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's correct.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             So I think I offered this document into the evidence.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, let me just check.  And I think ...

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You offered it and it's D467.  And then page 35,

 9     line 8, I said:  "And is admitted into evidence."

10             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Thank you.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Radan, I'm taking over from the

12     Presiding Judge and the other Judges.

13             Did any of the convoys with humanitarian aid for the Muslim

14     territory, i.e., the territory under the control of the BiH Army, pass

15     through your territory?

16        A.   Yes.  From the beginning of the war, from May 1992, roads were

17     not good.  Tvrnici [phoen] was on a macadam road.  The convoys did pass

18     through that territory.  At Lukavica we would be waiting for them.  We

19     would check what was being sent.  We talked to them.  We tried to

20     ascertain what was in the convoys.  We're talking about various

21     humanitarian and charity organisations that collected aid and sent it to

22     the population in Sarajevo.

23             I remember well that in May 1992 the current cardinal,

24     Vinko Puljic was a member of one of the teams.  We received him.  We gave

25     him a cup of coffee --

Page 21338

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you please slow down so that the

 2     interpreters are able to translate for us, to interpret for us, what you

 3     say.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll do my best.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   I apologise the name was not recorded.  Who was a member of the

 7     delegation?

 8        A.   Vinko Puljic, who is currently the cardinal in

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And it was not only that humanitarian aid but the

10     other aid also came.  And together with the military representative of

11     UNPROFOR, Mr. Zarkovic reorganised things and we tried to let the convoys

12     go, but the Muslim side was not always co-operative and they didn't allow

13     the same thing to happen.  So, on several occasions, we had to unload the

14     goods because it was not received in Sarajevo for reasons known only to

15     them.  A lot of the goods perished in Lukavica and at other places.

16        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 13 of your statement, which I would like

17     to call up, it is 1D1608.  In this paragraph, you talk about the group of

18     nine Serbs who created problems in Grbavica.  I suppose that we could

19     call them criminals.  Did those criminals cause problems for the Serbs as

20     well?

21        A.   It would be my personal view if I said that they created problems

22     for me as well, but it's not neither here nor there.  They did create

23     problems for the Serbs.  If they were not satisfied with what they could

24     get from the other two ethnic groups, i.e., Muslims and Croats, they did

25     not refrain, and usually that happened when they were drunk, and then

Page 21339

 1     they did not make a distinction and they did things that normal people

 2     wouldn't do.  In front of the municipality building, they shot at my car

 3     because they were drunk and I lost my car, but it is really not

 4     important.

 5             The most important thing would have been the image that we wanted

 6     to create of ourselves and the way we wanted to be perceived by the other

 7     two ethnic groups, i.e., Muslims and Croats.  We wanted to be perceived

 8     as peaceful people, we wanted to protect those people, and that's why we

 9     suggested that those nine people, in co-ordination with the civilian and

10     military police and the civilian authorities, that those people should be

11     removed from our territory because we didn't want them to go on creating

12     problems for us.  Gradually that was done, all of them were removed from

13     the territory, and two -- and two years later, they were no longer in our

14     territories.  In other words, they stayed in our territory, no longer

15     than two or three years at the most.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I again invite the witness to -- to reduce

17     your speed of speech.  And you said "two or three years."  Do you know

18     exactly or at least in what month they were removed?  I mean, three years

19     from 1992 brings us into 1995.  When -- could you tell us approximately

20     what month were they effectively removed?  What year, what month?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The protagonists, the ones who

22     created the most problems -- or, rather, the main protagonist, Batko, was

23     removed in September or October 1992 from our territory.  He would go

24     away and then come back and then go away and finally he was removed.  And

25     then the others, I know only their nicknames, when the ring leader left

Page 21340

 1     the territory, they were no longer such a big problem and they could

 2     easily be and gradually removed from the territory.  They were mostly

 3     locals --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm mainly interested in the time when none of them

 5     was left, when they effectively were removed.  And you're confusing me a

 6     bit by referring to Batko, saying, "he was away and then come back and

 7     then go away and then finally he was removed."  When was that finally?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am testifying

 9     about the period when I was the president of the Executive Board, and

10     that was up to March 1993.  This would cover the period of which I have

11     relevant knowledge.  The first time they left the territory was in

12     September or October 1992 --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It may be clear that I'm mainly interested in when

14     they last left the territory.  Because if they return meanwhile, that may

15     not resolve the problem entirely.

16             So when did they last leave the territory, without then

17     returning?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, and I say that my

19     knowledge spans a period up to March 1993, and the biggest problem was

20     eliminated when Batko left.  The others were also problematic.

21     However --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm -- I'm asking you when -- and if you want to

23     make a distinction, Batko left for the last time and never returned on

24     that moment, that's fine, and for the others, give me another time-frame.

25     But that's what I would like to know:  When did Batko leave and did not

Page 21341

 1     return any further?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I claim that he left in

 3     September/October.  That was the first time he left our territory --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I think my question was clear enough.  I

 5     didn't ask you when he for the first time left.  I'm asking when he

 6     definitely left.  That is, the last time he left and did not return.  So

 7     to repeat all the other answers is not of great assistance to me.  If you

 8     don't know, tell us.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your question is very clear and my

10     answer was very clear.  I told you that my knowledge spans a period up to

11     March 1992 and -- and that's it.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So whether you fortunately succeeded in removing

13     them is, in the end, as far as time is concerned, is rather unclear.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the executive branch

15     of power provides suggestions and tries to co-operate with the civilian

16     and military police and -- and the military, in order to see how the

17     territory could be made safer, by removing such elements.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not talking about your good intentions and the

19     efforts you made.  I'm talking about the result described in your

20     statement as that, fortunately, they were successful in removing these

21     men from Grbavica.

22             Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24        Q.   Talking about these men, these criminals, were they independent

25     or were they a part of a system, either a military or a civilian system?

Page 21342

 1        A.   They were not a part of the system.  They just wore units --

 2     uniforms, but they were not members of any unit.  They were not recorded.

 3     Nobody knew from which position they acted.  In other words, they were

 4     not a part of any system.

 5        Q.   Who succeeded you in your position as the president of the

 6     Executive Council?

 7        A.   Mr. Budo Obradovic, the late Budo Obradovic.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I seek clarification with respect to the

 9     uniforms.

10             Can you describe which kind of uniforms they wore?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At first, those uniforms were of

12     all kinds.  People wore what they could.  And then there was an official

13     declaration as to how a soldier should look like what he should wear in

14     order to be recognised as a soldier.  At first, it was really very

15     random.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to interrupt you.  I was referring

17     to your last answer with respect to the nine men.  You said:  "They wore

18     uniforms ..."  What kind of uniforms, these nine men?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Usually they wore the best uniform,

20     but they were not soldiers.  They wore the best uniforms.  I don't know

21     how they had obtained them.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm asking you what kind of uniforms they had.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Camouflage uniforms.  Camouflage

24     uniforms.  Camouflage uniforms.  They looked like military uniforms, and

25     they obtained them in various ways.  I'm talking about camouflage

Page 21343

 1     uniforms.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which -- which colour and which kind of insignia?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, they did not sport

 4     any insignia.  It depended on what they needed to achieve.  They could

 5     change those insignia at will.  They did not have their own identity.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Have you ever seen these men personally?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What colour did you see?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I've told you, they had

10     camouflage greenish-brownish uniforms, as far as I can remember.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was exactly my question.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC:  I would just intervene and it can be checked probably

14     in audio recording.  Page 42, line 16.  It was recorded that the witness

15     said:  "They looked like military uniforms."  The witness said:  "They

16     looked close to military uniforms."  And I will check [Overlapping

17     speakers] ...

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, let's -- yes, you can verify that and if you

19     could reach an agreement at least that there is a slight difference

20     between "like" and "close."  It is both similarity but the one stronger

21     than the other, that's clear.

22             Please proceed.  Any further questions, Mr. Lukic?

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, but I think it's the break time.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  It is the break time.  But before we break, how much

25     time would you need after the break.  We had an early break last time.

Page 21344

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Probably less than five minutes, couple of minutes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I would suggest that we take those initial --

 3     those other five minutes.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, okay.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.  We'll try not to interrupt

 6     you.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Radan, I'm coming to the end of my examination.

 9             You were succeeded by the late Budimir Obradovic, as you've told

10     us.  What happened to him?  And why?  Just briefly.

11        A.   Budimir Obradovic joined from the military.  He tried to

12     implement the same military discipline.  He met with resistance from

13     those who were not very keen on implementing the law.  Very soon

14     thereafter, he was found dead, he was killed in his office, because he

15     didn't meet the requests of those who had wanted him to help them do

16     something against the law.

17        Q.   And now I would finish with paragraph 16.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need to see the following page on

19     the screen, and I'm talking about the same statement that is already in

20     e-court.

21        Q.   What remains unclear here is when you talk about the shelling

22     in -- near the students' residences -- residential buildings and then

23     along Moravska Street, populated mostly by the Pandurevic and Cecar

24     families.  What was their ethnicity?

25        A.   They were Serbs.  Do you need any further explanation?

Page 21345

 1        Q.   Where did the fire come from?

 2        A.   We saw it and the observers also saw it and made it clear that

 3     the shells came from Velesici.  They were fired from a mobile mortar

 4     which was on rail tracks, so one could not establish the exact location

 5     where they were.  Shells fell near the halls of residence and along

 6     Moravska Street from Velesici.

 7        Q.   Mr. Radan, that was all we had for you.  Thank you once again.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we take the break now.

 9             Mr. Radan, we'll take a break for 20 minutes.  We'll resume at

10     five minutes past 12.00.  You may follow the usher.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll resume at five minutes past midday.

13                           --- Recess taken at 11.45 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 12.09 p.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness to be brought

16     in, I have to inform the parties that Judge Fluegge is unable to continue

17     hearing this case but only for one session due to urgent Tribunal

18     matters.  Judge Moloto and myself, we have considered whether it would be

19     in the interests of justice to continue to hear the case at this moment,

20     and we decided it is.  Therefore, we'll sit 15 bis for this session, most

21     likely, only.

22             Ms. Bibles, the estimate was two hours for this witness for

23     cross?

24             MS. BIBLES:  I believe that's an accurate estimate, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

Page 21346

 1             I also do understand that the next Defence witness would be

 2     available only tomorrow morning.  Is that ...?

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We were thinking and consulting

 4     whether to bring him, and then when we realized it was likely to be at

 5     2.00, we thought we'd better not.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That seems to be a sensible solution for the

 7     time being.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Radan, you'll now be cross-examined by

10     Ms. Bibles.  You'll find her to your right.  Ms. Bibles is counsel for

11     the Prosecution.

12             Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

13             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14                           Cross-examination by Ms. Bibles:

15        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Radan.

16        A.   Good afternoon.

17        Q.   Mr. Radan, your statement identifies that you had a role in

18     municipal organs of Novo Sarajevo, but the relevant dates for that

19     service is not provided in your statement.  Because that timing can make

20     a difference to the basis of your knowledge, I'd like to start by going

21     through some of those dates.

22             First, was your first involvement in local government in

23     December 1991 when you became a member of the local municipal or commune

24     board of Vrace?

25        A.   It was not government.  It was involvement only in the party in

Page 21347

 1     1991.

 2        Q.   So this was an SDS board that you became part of in December of

 3     1991?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now, prior to December of 1991, were you active in the work of

 6     the SDS party?

 7        A.   No, no.

 8        Q.   Prior to December of 1991, would you agree that your source of

 9     information was publicly available, such as the media, public speeches,

10     Assembly sessions, that kind of thing?

11        A.   Well, all the sources were public, but what I accept and

12     acknowledge is my personal choice.  But everybody had a free choice of

13     whatever they wanted to follow.

14        Q.   Now, once you were on the SDS board, did you begin to have access

15     to more information about events on the ground in Vrace?

16        A.   Well, perhaps, but only within our local commune where I was

17     actively involved.

18        Q.   All right.  And you'd agree that sometimes you would relay that

19     information in your local area up the chain of SDS hierarchy?

20        A.   I did not have such a role as to spread information.  I was only

21     a member of the local board of the SDS at Vrace, without any specific

22     tasks or mission.

23        Q.   But you had some ability to contact the republican-level Bosnian

24     Serb leadership even in that position.  Isn't that true?

25        A.   Yes.  We had some access, although it was not completely free.

Page 21348

 1     You couldn't go there for talks whenever you wished.  But through local

 2     boards at municipal level, we could make certain initiatives and make

 3     inquiries into matters that were of interest to ask -- to us, so we would

 4     contact the Municipal Board and they would then contact higher levels.

 5        Q.   And, in fact, in February 1992, working with the other local

 6     SDS boards in Novo Sarajevo, you requested the presidents of the Bosnian

 7     Serb leadership and Radovan Karadzic himself?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   He was asked -- Radovan Karadzic and other members of the Bosnian

10     Serb leadership were asked to come to the local SDS meeting to assist in

11     resolving some internal issues or some political issues; is that correct?

12        A.   The issue was agreeing on how to preside over the Municipal Board

13     of the SDS.  There were factions which intended to nominate their own

14     candidate for president of the Municipal Board, and then we asked the

15     leadership to attend because we had ten boards, and we were all

16     represented in the municipality of Novo Sarajevo, and each representative

17     presented their problems an opinions.  And President Karadzic was there,

18     together with Krajisnik and other officials, and they suggested that we

19     should find a peaceful and democratic solution.  The majority of boards

20     were in favour of appointing Mr. Brica [phoen].

21        Q.   Mr. Radan, the point was simply that if -- if you or other boards

22     wanted the attention of the Bosnian Serb leadership at the republic

23     level, you were able to request that and, in this instance, they

24     appeared?

25        A.   Yes, yes.

Page 21349

 1        Q.   And then on the 5th of May, 1992, you became the vice-president

 2     of the Executive Board of Novo Sarajevo?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And that would be the SDS Board, just to be clear.

 5        A.   On that Executive Board, not all the members of the SDS

 6     participated.  There was one member of the board who was, let's say, a

 7     member of the socialist party, so you can't call it exactly the

 8     Executive Board of the SDS.  It was established at the initiative of the

 9     Crisis Staff but not all of the members were from the SDS.

10        Q.   But the Executive Board that you were part of for Novo Sarajevo

11     was the executive function or acted as the executive function for the

12     Crisis Staff of Novo Sarajevo.  Is that an accurate depiction?

13        A.   Yes, that's accurate.

14        Q.   So the Crisis Staff would make a decision.  The Executive Board

15     would implement those decisions.

16        A.   No.  The Crisis Staff initiated the establishment of the

17     Executive Board, which was supposed to take over all the jobs that

18     remained on the table after the previous board remained on the other side

19     of the Miljacka river.  The Crisis Staff did not interfere in -- in the

20     business of the Executive Board because the Executive Board was doing its

21     job quite well.  There was no need for the Crisis Staff to meddle.

22             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, if we could be shown 65 ter 03290.  We

23     could start on page one for both languages.

24        Q.   Mr. Radan, I see the B/C/S version is up on the screen.  If you

25     take a look at the upper left-hand corner, you would agree that this is a

Page 21350

 1     document coming from the Serbian municipality of Novo Sarajevo

 2     Crisis Staff?

 3        A.   I see.

 4        Q.   And you would agree this was dated 5 June 1992?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And if you will look to the last section of what's numbered as

 7     number -- well, number 1, would you agree that it reads:

 8             "The Crisis Staff has performed the function of

 9     Municipal Assembly in war conditions."

10        A.   Up to a point, yes.  Because not all the deputies were on our

11     territory.  So somebody had to take over the competencies of the

12     Municipal Assembly until we established our own municipal me.

13        Q.   And would you look at number 2 and agree that it reads --

14     actually if you'd listen:

15             "An Executive Board was formed as an executive organ with the

16     necessary secretariats that carried out the decisions made by the

17     Crisis Staff."

18             Did I read that correctly?

19        A.   Well, if we accept the above as true, that the functions of the

20     Municipal Boards were taken over, then the following is also true, that

21     the Executive Board implemented the decisions of the Crisis Staff and

22     that was so until July 1992.

23        Q.   And perhaps I should have done this earlier but you would agree

24     that this is a report on activities to the president of the Presidency of

25     the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

Page 21351

 1        A.   I was not there, but I agree that it's true of most reports.  I

 2     was not present for this one, but I believe that was the governing

 3     principle of our work.

 4        Q.   You would agree that this document, in a simple read of its

 5     heading, was a report of activities to the president of the Presidency of

 6     the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 7        A.   Yes.  That's what it says.

 8             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, if I could have this document MFI'd,

 9     please.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Not -- you're not seeking admission?

11             MS. BIBLES:  I will seek admission at this time, Your Honour.  I

12     will be coming back to this document.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  But then could we already see whether it can

14     be admitted.  You can still revisit the document.

15             No objections.  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 03290 receives number P6524,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

19             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   Now, Mr. Radan, going back to your chronology, on the

21     12th of July, 1992, you were elected president of the Executive Board of

22     Novo Sarajevo?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And you would agree that members of the republic level of the

25     Bosnian Serb leadership were present at this election?

Page 21352

 1        A.   Yes, they were present.  And I'm proud of that Assembly because

 2     it displayed a high degree of democracy.  At the beginning there were

 3     three candidates, then two, and then one was chosen by a majority vote,

 4     by overwhelming majority.  24 out of 25 voted for him and one abstained.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the simple question was whether the

 6     Bosnian Serb leadership was present.  You apparently felt the need to

 7     explain how democratic it was.  That was not part of the question.  It's

 8     not disputed at this moment.  So, therefore, there is no need to explain

 9     that.  So would you please focus your answer on what has been asked.

10             Please proceed.

11             MS. BIBLES:

12        Q.   In a very specific question you would agree that

13     Dr. Nikola Koljevic was present?

14        A.   Yes, he was.

15        Q.   And Petko Cancar?

16        A.   And Petko Cancar.

17        Q.   And you would agree that the presence of these individuals lent

18     an importance to the election of new municipal leadership in

19     Novo Sarajevo?

20        A.   I think it did.  It did.

21        Q.   And in fact, in this capacity as president of this

22     Executive Board, you enjoyed the ability to communicate, if needed, with

23     the republic-level Bosnian Serb leadership?

24        A.   Yes, precisely.  If needed.

25        Q.   And this is the position that you held until the 12th of March,

Page 21353

 1     1993?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And while in this position, you received information about what

 4     was happening on the ground from various municipal channels.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And you would agree that you also received information from

 7     military organs in the area.

 8        A.   At least once a week, we held meetings where the army, both

 9     police forces and civilian authorities, were present, and even outside of

10     these meetings we were in touch.

11        Q.   And you would agree that you had the full support of those organs

12     for the work of the board.

13        A.   For the work of the Executive Board, yes.

14        Q.   Now, let's briefly shift direction to the geography and the

15     locations within the municipality of Novo Sarajevo.

16             You would agree that there were significant locations and organs

17     for the Serbian cause within the boundaries of Novo Sarajevo.

18        A.   I don't know which organs you mean.

19        Q.   Well, let's --

20             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, if we could have 65 ter 30676 placed on

21     the screen.  And this is a map.  We do have hard copies which could be

22     distributed for the Chamber.  I believe the Defence has these maps.  And

23     we can provide a hard copy for the witness as well.

24        Q.   Mr. Radan, before we look at these locations and organs, please

25     take a look at the -- this map which depicts Novo Sarajevo and take some

Page 21354

 1     time to orient yourself.

 2        A.   Yes, please.

 3        Q.   Do you see the thick, dark lines on the map?

 4        A.   Right.

 5        Q.   Do you know what the dark lines depict?

 6        A.   Those dark lines represent boundaries from before the war, the

 7     boundaries of the municipalities.

 8        Q.   All right.  And if we look at the area dominating this map, would

 9     you agree that that would be the pre-war Novo Sarajevo municipality?

10        A.   Yes, that was Novo Sarajevo municipality.

11        Q.   I would direct your attention now to the upper third of the map,

12     towards the urban area where the city is located.  If you could focus

13     your attention just to the Miljacka river within Novo Sarajevo.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Do you see two lines, one marked red and the other blue?

16        A.   The blue dotted line and the red dotted line, yes, I see them.

17        Q.   Do the red and blue lines at the river depict the confrontation

18     lines that were established in April of 1992?

19        A.   One of the lines.  But this is directly on the Miljacka river,

20     facing the other side.  Yes.

21        Q.   And you would agree this confrontation line remained stable

22     throughout at least your experience in Novo Sarajevo?

23        A.   There were minor shifts, almost none.

24        Q.   Now, please follow the red and blue lines towards Dobrinja on the

25     map.

Page 21355

 1        A.   Mm-hm.

 2        Q.   And perhaps with some, as I believe you described it, minor

 3     shifts, does this also depict the confrontation lines that you were

 4     familiar with in 1992?

 5        A.   For the most part, yes, those were the positions.  The

 6     demarcation line, the line that was defended.

 7        Q.   And you would agree that they roughly track the lines of -- or

 8     the municipal boundary at that point?

 9        A.   Well, at this point it trails off, and the territory of Ilidza

10     and Novo Sarajevo remains outside of the line of conflict, confrontation.

11        Q.   But for the places where the confrontation line is within

12     Novo Sarajevo, you would agree from the river to Dobrinja it roughly

13     tracks the municipal boundary?

14        A.   Yes, it was a natural boundary.

15        Q.   Pulling back and looking more at the lower two-thirds of the map,

16     would you agree that in -- this area of Novo Sarajevo was under the

17     authority of Bosnian Serb authorities?

18        A.   Yes.  It was under the authority of the Bosnian Serb authorities,

19     and it was a municipality with majority Serbian population without any

20     fluctuation.

21        Q.   And it's when we get closer to the urban area that Novo Sarajevo

22     had more of a multi-ethnic mixture in the population?

23        A.   Novo Sarajevo, you mean before the outbreak of the war?  Yes.

24     And even in our part, it was mixed.

25        Q.   Now, just to verify a couple of locations.  Am I correct that the

Page 21356

 1     Jewish cemetery is located within Novo Sarajevo?

 2        A.   The Jewish cemetery on our side.  But the real Jewish cemetery

 3     remained outside Novo Sarajevo.  We kept, we held the boundary, but the

 4     cemetery itself remained outside of it.

 5        Q.   Turning to the military structures, you would agree that the

 6     SRK Corps Command was located in Novo Sarajevo?

 7        A.   Yes, in Lukavica.

 8        Q.   And the Lukavica barracks were obviously within Novo Sarajevo?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.

10        Q.   And in terms of police, there was a police academy located in

11     Novo Sarajevo?

12        A.   Yes, it was at Vrace.

13        Q.   And while the police special forces were a mobile unit, you would

14     agree that they were based in different parts of Novo Sarajevo for the

15     first months of the war?

16        A.   With all due respect, I cannot agree that during the first few

17     months of the war they were absent.  In the first month of the war, yes,

18     and then they went to different locations.  I don't know exactly where.

19     In any case, they were not permanently based at the police academy or in

20     Novo Sarajevo municipality.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It looks like you're at cross purposes.  You said

22     they were based in different parts of Novo Sarajevo.  The witness says he

23     doesn't agree that they were absent.

24             MS. BIBLES:

25        Q.   Mr. Radan, to address the question, did you mean that the police

Page 21357

 1     special forces were present in Novo Sarajevo at the first month of the

 2     war?

 3        A.   I said the first month, not the first few months.  For the first

 4     month, yes.

 5        Q.   And the confusion is the way that it came out in the transcript.

 6     It appears that the police special forces were absent from Novo Sarajevo.

 7     Is -- is it -- just to clarify this:  Were the police special forces

 8     present and located in Novo Sarajevo in the first month of the war?

 9        A.   They were present and located there in the first month of the

10     war, and then they went to different parts of the territory as needed.

11             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I would tender 30676.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30676 receives number P6525,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

16             MS. BIBLES:  And I -- thank you.  We can take this image off the

17     screen.

18        Q.   Mr. Radan, let's now turn to your statement.

19             In paragraph 7 of your evidence, you say that unlike Muslims and

20     Croats, the Serbs were not preparing for war.  I'd like to go over the

21     kinds of things that would constitute preparing for war.

22             Would you agree that acquiring weapons would constitute preparing

23     for war?

24        A.   Yes.  Acquiring weapons means preparing for war.

25        Q.   You would agree that providing training for units, training them

Page 21358

 1     for military action, would also constitute preparing for war?

 2        A.   Yes, I agree on that too.

 3        Q.   And you would agree that secretly preparing to take over

 4     municipal government functions would also constitute preparing for war?

 5        A.   Yes.  For those who did that, yes.

 6        Q.   I'd first like to address the issue of training for military

 7     action.

 8             This Chamber has heard evidence that in 1991 the JNA provided

 9     training and arms to irregular forces of the SDS.

10             MS. BIBLES:  And, Your Honour, I'm referring to P439, paragraph 7

11     to 14 in a section titled:  "Training of SDS members by the JNA."  We do

12     not need to go to that on the screen.

13        Q.   Mr. Radan, were you aware that in 1991, in Sarajevo, the JNA was

14     training and arming SDS irregular forces?

15        A.   I didn't know that.  First of all, I was actively involved in the

16     work of the SDS in December 1991, that is clear.  So my age did not allow

17     me be trained and I did not -- I didn't know about this either.  That is

18     one thing.

19             Secondly, the Serbs did rely on the JNA and they relied on

20     Yugoslavia until the very last moment, we had no need to train, and we

21     had not lost hope that we'd remain in Yugoslavia.  So what I said here

22     means that others were training and organising themselves.  I do not have

23     that experience.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the simple question was whether you were

25     aware that in Sarajevo JNA was training and arming SDS irregular forces.

Page 21359

 1     The simple answer is you didn't know.  And why you didn't know, if

 2     Ms. Bibles is interested in that or why it would be logical or not

 3     logical to know it, she'll ask you for it.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MS. BIBLES:

 6        Q.   Mr. Radan, I'm looking at paragraph 7 of your statement, and you

 7     say:

 8             "Unlike the Muslims and Croats, the Serbs were not preparing for

 9     war."

10             So you would agree that you have proffered an opinion that is

11     beyond your -- the scope of your personal experience?

12        A.   No, that is my personal view, or my concrete view, because I did

13     see such cases in Sarajevo.  That is to say, I have taken an oath here

14     that I will speak the truth and nothing but the truth and that's what I'm

15     doing right now.  So I do not know about training of Serbs or members of

16     the SDS, whereas this I saw personally, the Green Berets, how they were

17     dressed and everything else, and also how they moved around Sarajevo.

18     This happened at once and it was all within the scope of preparations.

19        Q.   Mr. Radan, let's take a look at the some of the other evidence.

20             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, if the court usher could bring P352,

21     page 296 in English and P304 in B/C/S to our screen.

22        Q.   While this is coming up, Mr. Radan, are you aware that

23     General Mladic kept a notebook in which he recorded events?

24        A.   I assume in relation to his precision in terms of his activity

25     that he kept a notebook.  As for the official notebook --

Page 21360

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the end of

 2     the sentence.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume that he certainly had a

 4     notebook.

 5             MS. BIBLES:

 6        Q.   Mr. Radan, we missed part of what you've just said.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps I take over.

 8             What was recorded is the following, that you said:  "As for the

 9     official notebook," and there the record stops, and then it resumes when

10     you said:  "I assume that he certainly had a notebook."

11             What did you say between -- after the words "as for the official

12     notebook," what did you then tell us?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between these two sentences, my

14     official knowledge of having a notebook, I found out from here,

15     The Hague, that that was disclosed.  General Mladic's notebook.  On one

16     occasion, I was directly present where he chaired a meeting, provided

17     information, and I assume that the notebook comes from that meeting too.

18             MS. BIBLES:

19        Q.   Mr. Radan, we're now looking at the -- the notebook dated

20     11 May 1992.  I direct your attention to several lines below the

21     underlined name of Colonel Kovacevic, where it reads:

22             "I have been the brains of the weapons distribution for

23     ten months and so far 69.000 Serbs have been armed."

24             Have I read that correctly?

25             You're -- thank you.

Page 21361

 1             MS. BIBLES:  If we could now bring the first page of P3030 to the

 2     screen.

 3        Q.   Mr. Radan, we'll be looking at a 20 March 1992 JNA report,

 4     describing conclusions and evaluation of the situation on the

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina territory within the zone of responsibility of the

 6     2nd Military District.  Do you see the signature on the bottom right-hand

 7     side of the page?

 8        A.   With all due respect for you and the Court, I see all of this

 9     written here, but I was not informed about this at all.

10        Q.   Mr. Radan --

11        A.   I had a completely different post -- yes?

12        Q.   Mr. Radan, that was not the question.  I asked if you saw a

13     signature at the bottom left-hand page -- I'm sorry, the bottom

14     right-hand side of the page.  Do you see a signature?

15        A.   Yes, Colonel General Milutin Kukanjac.

16        Q.   And who was he on the 20th of March, 1992?

17        A.   He was the commander of the Sarajevo -- what was it called?  The

18     1st District, or whatever, the 1st Sarajevo District.  There were

19     districts then and he was commander for Sarajevo --

20        Q.   If we could now turn to --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, it appears to me that approximately

22     30 per cent of the questions you are putting to the witness are so

23     obvious.  I mean, to ask who this is, it says:  "Commander General

24     Milutin Kukanjac."  And the heading is:  "Command of the 2nd Military

25     District."

Page 21362

 1             Now, unless there's any reason to believe that this commander is

 2     commander of something else, then it's -- it's useless.  And similar

 3     questions about many things before.  So try to focus on what would be

 4     reasonably in dispute and there are a lot of things, I think, that are

 5     not in dispute such as whether Novo Sarajevo, whether the part was during

 6     the war under Serb control.  I don't think that there is much dispute

 7     about that, but I'm looking at Mr. Lukic.

 8             Many questions are really either obvious or do not need

 9     explanation, unless it's important for the witness to know.  What you

10     apparently are doing at this moment to show the witness why he didn't

11     have the information to make a statement on whether the Serbs were

12     preparing for war.  That apparently is the issue.

13             Now, that -- that is clear.  But then to know exactly where

14     Mr. Kukanjac was not only in this document the commander but he really

15     was, where the witness has partially no idea, doesn't make much sense.

16             Please proceed.

17             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, this is a witness who has proffered

18     some pretty broad opinions and I --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear.  I'm not blaming you for putting, but

20     I -- the question who Mr. Kukanjac was triggered my observation and it

21     was in addition to a lot of questions before which were of similar

22     obvious character and certainly matters that you could have easily, I

23     take it, agreed upon with the Defence.

24             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, the proposition the witness has put

25     forward is that the Serbs were not preparing for war and I assume --

Page 21363

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You do not have to further explain.  I fully

 2     understand your position, and I hope you understand my comments as well.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MS. BIBLES:  I do, Your Honour.

 5             If we could turn to page 4 in both versions at this point.

 6        Q.   And if you could direct your attention to the section that begins

 7     with "second."

 8             Please follow while I review a portion of this section:

 9             "The Serbian leadership and the Serbian people are fully prepared

10     to wage a war ..."

11             So you would agree that the JNA perceived that in March of 1992,

12     the Serbian people were, in fact, prepared for a war?

13        A.   I don't know where this conclusion comes from but I see that

14     there is some mention here of Alija Izetbegovic.  I don't see what I

15     could say now by way of comment.  March 1992, whether the army was ready.

16     The army was ready to stay in Yugoslavia.  I know that until the month of

17     May, and the well-known things that happened in Dobrovoljacka Street and

18     so on.

19        Q.   Mr. Radan, would you agree that based on the reading of this

20     document and those words, that the JNA believed the Serbian leadership

21     was prepared for war in Bosnia?

22        A.   I do apologise.  I cannot make comments on something that I

23     cannot see properly.  I don't see the heading, I don't see who wrote

24     this.  I don't see who signed it.  Prepared for war.  No one felt like

25     war.

Page 21364

 1        Q.   Mr. Radan, the reason I showed you the first page of this

 2     document and had you look at the signature was so that you would know who

 3     authored this document; correct?

 4        A.   This is one of the variants.  It's possible that this was in the

 5     period when the Cutileiro Plan was there.  That was in the month of

 6     March, so looking at the date, I can only link that up to that period

 7     that one of the proposals was a confederation.  That is to say that if

 8     something that had been agreed upon is not accepted, something that had

 9     been agreed upon in Portugal, then there is no other option but for

10     everyone to dig their heels into their own land and -- well, I mean,

11     Izetbegovic came back and --

12        Q.   Mr. Radan --

13        A.   -- and did away with all of this.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you are giving a political analysis of the

15     situation.  The only thing Ms. Bibles is doing is putting to you a

16     document in which it is stated, and she has given the letterhead and the

17     signature of the person that presented this report which expresses that

18     the "Serbian leadership and the Serbian people are fully prepared to wage

19     a war."

20             You, as a matter of fact, you're not denying it.  You say:  Well,

21     if the political developments failed to do, then what else could we do?

22     That's not the question.  The question was whether this document

23     expresses that the Serbs were prepared for waging a war, if circumstances

24     would require them to wage such a war.

25             Do you agree that that's what the document says?

Page 21365

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I agree with Mr. President

 2     but that can also be placed into a different context.  I am being --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but -- no, no.  You're not invited to provide

 4     context.  You're here to answer questions.  You've said:  Serbians were,

 5     unlike Muslims and Croats, not preparing for war.

 6             Now that's your opinion.  Ms. Bibles, the only thing she does is

 7     to show you a few documents which apparently give a different position as

 8     to either preparing or being prepared for war.  That's the only thing.

 9     As simple as that.

10             We've listened to your last answer.  You may move on, Ms. Bibles.

11             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.  Let's turn now with respect to the

12     preparation in the realm of the political and government organs.

13        Q.   Would you agree that the Novo Sarajevo Crisis Staff formed in

14     1991?

15        A.   No, I don't know.  I don't have such information.  I know about

16     1992.

17             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, if we could bring 65 ter 3634 to our

18     screens.

19        Q.   Mr. Radan, I'd like you to look at this document and see if this

20     enhances your knowledge about the Crisis Staff and when it may have been

21     in existence.

22             Mr. Radan, would you agree that these are minutes, or an extract

23     from minutes, perhaps, of a Crisis Staff meeting for 23 December 1991?

24        A.   I can just state that I know most of these names.  But I was not

25     present at that meeting, so there's nothing else I can say.

Page 21366

 1        Q.   And you agree that the names that you recognise were active SDS

 2     members at that time.

 3        A.   For the most part.  For the most part, yes.

 4        Q.   And looking at the top, you would agree that the Crisis Staff

 5     heard and discussed the materials received from the SDS

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina Main Board?

 7        A.   Yes, I see that that is written there, but I'm testifying about

 8     what I know.  So I know about the Crisis Staff from 1992, that

 9     established the first Municipal Board, and none of these persons

10     mentioned here were on that board.

11        Q.   Mr. Radan, you see on the left-hand side of this document there

12     are items listed, with numbers?

13        A.   Yes, I see that.

14        Q.   And you would agree that there are names opposite that?

15        A.   Yes, I agree.  I can see that.  I can read that.

16        Q.   All right.  Let's look at item number 9.  Would you agree that

17     the three individuals there are from the civilian protection, the police,

18     and the TO?

19        A.   I'm telling you, I don't know how relevant my testimony is if I

20     was not present there in the first place.  I repeat once again --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- just whether it's relevant or not, leave that

22     to the parties and to the Chamber.

23             There are three names there.  Do you know these names?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said a moment ago that

25     I know the names of most of these people, and I know quite a few of them

Page 21367

 1     in person, but I am not aware of the offices that they seem to have held

 2     that are listed here.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm -- I'm not asking you that.  I just asked you if

 4     you say, "I know most of these names," then I want to ensure whether you

 5     know these three names.

 6             Do you know Mr. Kovac, by name or personally?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Did he have a function in the civilian protection?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Executive Board that I

10     presided over, he was in charge of matters related to military records.

11     That is to say that he kept military records.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Was he involved --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Secretary of National Defence

14     specifically.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was he involved in civilian protection?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that period, when I was there,

17     no.  Until December 1992, he was in the municipality of Novo Sarajevo.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jovanovic, do you know that name,

19     Milanko Jovanovic?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milanko Jovanovic was in the

21     police.  He was wounded in the beginning of the war and he left the

22     municipality of Novo Sarajevo.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't ask all these questions, when he left,

24     whether he was wounded or not.  I just asked you whether you know him.

25     Apparently you do.  And he was in the Ministry of Interior in the police.

Page 21368

 1             Momir Garic.  Do you know him?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Momir Garic was commander of --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know when to stop.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you should stop once you've answered the

 6     question.  Apparently you know him.  Was he -- did he have a function in

 7     the Territorial Defence?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Commander of the

 9     Territorial Defence.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

11             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, we -- actually, I'd ask to tender this

12     document at this time.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 3634 receives number P6526,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

17             Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

18             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, at this point, I'd simply refer the

19     Trial Chamber to P3038, which was Variant A and B instructions, and

20     direct attention to the Variant A items with respect to this particular

21     document.

22        Q.   But I'll move on, Mr. Radan.

23             Mr. Radan, you agree that there were a number of preparations

24     taking part on behalf of the Serb cause in preparation for war that you

25     were unaware of?

Page 21369

 1        A.   Possibly.  Because I do not have complete information.

 2        Q.   Mr. Radan, we've looked at a number of documents here that show

 3     that there were preparations going on with respect to arming, training,

 4     and preparing the political structures.

 5             Would you agree that if you'd been asked, that you would have

 6     taken part in these activities?

 7        A.   Well, if I could help in any sense, if I could help towards a

 8     peaceful resolution of the situation, I would have.

 9        Q.   Mr. Radan, let's talk now about the functioning municipal organs

10     in which you participated.

11             MS. BIBLES:  Although I believe we may be at a break point.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We are, Ms. Bibles.

13             We take a break, and we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes from

14     now.  And we'll resume at 25 minutes past 1.00.  You may follow the

15     usher.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17                           --- Recess taken at 1.06 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 1.30 p.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted

20     into the courtroom, I put on the record that Judge Fluegge is with us

21     again.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, you may continue your cross-examination.

Page 21370

 1             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Mr. Radan, I'd like to start by going back to something that you

 3     said while testifying this morning.

 4             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, that would be -- this line begins at

 5     page 38, line 20.

 6        Q.   Mr. Radan, you said:

 7             "The most important thing would have been the image we wanted to

 8     create of ourselves and the way we wanted to be perceived by the other

 9     ethnic groups, i.e., Muslims and Croats."

10             You would agree that the police could secretly adopt a different

11     attitude about the other ethnic groups?  You would agree that the police

12     could secretly adopt a different attitude or perception.

13        A.   I can't agree with any such assumptions.  I can't agree, no.

14             MS. BIBLES:  If we could see P6524, and I direct attention to

15     page 3 in both the English and the B/C/S.

16        Q.   Mr. Radan, when this comes on the screen, I'd like to you look

17     down at point 6 on the page, which would be titled:  "Treatment of

18     Muslims and Croats."

19             MS. BIBLES:  It appears that we need to go to -- oh, yes, to

20     page ... there we go.

21        Q.   Mr. Radan, in this Crisis Staff report to the Presidency, under

22     number 6, "Treatment of Muslims and Croats," it reads:

23             "Citizens of all nationalities assemble frequently, especially in

24     Grbavica, and our public attitude is very correct, we appoint a head of

25     every building who is responsible for the situation in his building and

Page 21371

 1     for all the information about the occupants.  Secretly, the police apply

 2     the usual procedure to people who were engaged in military activities

 3     against us."

 4             Would you agree, then, that the police could secretly adopt a

 5     different procedure towards the other ethnic groups?

 6        A.   Well, everything was possible in the war and things were not

 7     possible.  There were incidents.  I don't have any information about such

 8     police activities, but things happened.

 9        Q.   Mr. Radan, I'd like to move on now to paragraph 13 or matters

10     that you discussed in paragraph 13 of your statement.

11             You said there were nine men who -- "whom we knew by name."  You

12     name one of the men, Batko.  Could you please name the other eight

13     individuals.

14             MR. LUKIC:  I would just try to object.  I think the gentleman

15     said:  "I know some of them by nickname."  I don't think that he ever

16     claimed that he knows the names.  But I will check in the transcript.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we'll check in the transcript.  The other

18     eight people, could you, to the extent you remember, give names or

19     nicknames or another identification of those persons?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At first I know of Batko whose name

21     was Veselin Vlahovic.  Then Zoran Zoka Cepter.  Those are all nicknames.

22     Krompir, and then some other nicknames.  Believe me, I didn't know their

23     full names.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, in your statement, it says you knew them by

25     name.  Now that doesn't specify whether it's their names or nicknames.

Page 21372

 1             But, Mr. Lukic, at least that's what the statement says.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Page --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Now let's not make it -- let's not make it more

 4     complicated.  Could you, to the best of your abilities, give names or

 5     nicknames of the other eight, and I think you've given us now two.  No,

 6     Batko whose name was Veselin.  And then -- well, I think that the

 7     identity of Batko is -- could be then Zoran.  Zoran who?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, I don't know.  There

 9     was somebody called Zoka Cepter and then another Zoka.  I don't know.

10     There was someone called Krompir, or Potato.  Later I learned that his

11     family name was Dragicevic.  The police had that information.  I just

12     asked the police to intervene ...

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you said you knew them by names and you

14     now are telling us that you don't remember all the names and only a

15     couple of them and then mainly nicknames, sometimes even the same

16     nicknames for two different persons.

17             Ms. Bibles, please proceed.

18             MS. BIBLES:

19        Q.   Mr. Radan, you would agree that if you don't know who they are,

20     you don't know for sure that they aren't part of some unit?

21        A.   I knew and I know that they were not members of a unit because

22     they always walked around Grbavica looking idle, without any commitments

23     or obligations.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That's, therefore, a conclusion, Witness.  Because

25     if people se me walking in the street, they wouldn't say I'm a member of

Page 21373

 1     a Court, so that is two different things.  You concluded that the way in

 2     which you observed them, that they didn't show themselves to be members

 3     of a unit.  That's how I understand your testimony now.

 4             Is that accurate?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Precisely, precisely.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

 7             MS. BIBLES:

 8        Q.   So, you as the president of the Executive Board were obviously

 9     aware of these individuals.  Would you agree that other republic-level

10     members of the Bosnian Serb leadership were aware of the activities of

11     these individuals?

12        A.   Possibly they did.  But I didn't know that they knew.

13        Q.   Well, in terms of these individuals being present in

14     Novo Sarajevo and committing crimes, wouldn't you agree that it's -- it's

15     an important distinction if people who could have done something about

16     them, in fact, didn't?

17        A.   The desired reaction did not take place immediately, and when

18     there were requests for these people to be removed from the area, it

19     wasn't done immediately.

20        Q.   And that begs the question as to who knew they were there and

21     when.

22             MS. BIBLES:  If we could see P353, page 308 in the English and

23     306 in the B/C/S, this might help us understand this.

24        Q.   Mr. Radan, we're looking at another notebook of Ratko Mladic.

25     And this page that we'll be looking at is dated 10 July 1992.

Page 21374

 1             The B/C/S version is now on your screen.  At this time, would you

 2     agree that as of 10 July 1992, Ratko Mladic knew that Batko was

 3     terrorising Grbavica?

 4        A.   I suppose he knew because we wanted them removed.  That

 5     initiative came from us.  And military representatives were members of

 6     the commission which worked on that.  General Milosevic was one of them

 7     as well as Major --

 8        Q.   Mr. --

 9        A.   -- he was from the military police.  So it is quite possible that

10     the information reached General Mladic as well.

11        Q.   All right.

12             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.  We can remove this from the screen.

13        Q.   You would agree that Mrs. Plavsic lived in Novo Sarajevo, I

14     think, until September of 1992?

15        A.   Mrs. Plavsic lived in Grbavica until May 1992.

16        Q.   Thank you for the correction.  You would agree that she lived

17     there during the time that Batko was present and active.

18        A.   I said that she lived there until May or, rather, the end of

19     April, the beginning of May.  She was already in Pale at that time.  Her

20     mother went shopping.  She came to visit her mother.  She came to the

21     municipality.  She went wherever she deemed necessary.

22        Q.   Are you aware that Mrs. Plavsic made many other significant

23     members of the Bosnian Serb leadership aware of the crimes that Batko was

24     committing?

25        A.   No, I'm not aware of that.

Page 21375

 1             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, if we could see the first page of

 2     65 ter 17389A.  This is an excerpt of a book from Mrs. Plavsic.

 3        Q.   Mr. Radan, you've previously seen Mrs. Plavsic's book with

 4     respect to Batko, haven't you?

 5        A.   A correction, a slight correction.  This is not Mrs. Plavsic's

 6     book but Mr. Rajko Vasic's book.  The book was actually authored by

 7     Rajko Vasic, but it's based on her memories.  I'm -- I'm aware of the

 8     book.

 9        Q.   Let's look to the first paragraph -- or the -- the paragraph that

10     starts about two-thirds of the way down the page.  It's written:

11             "I dashed to Pale in order to attempt to prevent the activities

12     of crazy Batko.  I entered into one of the rooms in Kikinda where I found

13     all the persons relevant for the resolution of this problem.  Radovan,

14     Momo, Justice Minister Momcilo Mandic, and Interior Minister

15     Mico Stanisic was there.  I didn't even mention my conversation with

16     Ogata to them.  Instead, I immediately moved on to the events in

17     Grbavica.  I expected them to be surprised, concerned, dumbfounded, but

18     there was nothing of the kind.  Momcilo Mandic smirked (this is the right

19     word to describe his face at that moment) and said, Ah, Batko.  The

20     interior minister reacted in the same manner as if we were talking about

21     an unruly child and his games.  So they knew about the man and his

22     'activities.'  They knew him very well and did not hide this.  So, they

23     were his protectors and he received orders from them, which

24     Zoran Vitkovic mentioned."

25             Mr. Radan, having reviewed this section regarding Mrs. Plavsic,

Page 21376

 1     you would agree that the republican-level Bosnian Serb leadership was

 2     aware of Batko's activities?

 3        A.   Let me tell you, as far as I can remember, that book was written

 4     in 2005.  And the references made here --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Radan, let me stop you -- let me stop you there.

 6             Ms. Bibles, the witness said:  I didn't know that Biljana Plavsic

 7     was aware.  Now to put a book to him in which apparently the author,

 8     which may or may not be Biljana Plavsic, says that she was aware and

 9     describes the circumstance and then to say to the witness:  Wouldn't you

10     agree -- I mean, the book speaks for itself.  Whether the witness who

11     says -- who has no knowledge, to ask him to say:  Look at the book and

12     wouldn't you agree with, that's, of course, not what the witness is

13     supposed to do, and that's also not what you're supposed to ask from a

14     witness.

15             MS. BIBLES:

16        Q.   Mr. Radan, would you -- wouldn't you agree that something could

17     have been done to stop the crimes committed by these nine men much

18     earlier?

19        A.   Well, I said it just a while ago.  I said that things could have

20     been done, but there were omissions, and things were not done as soon as

21     they had to be done.

22        Q.   Mr. Radan, would you agree for the possibility that Batko and his

23     men acted with the complicity of the Bosnian Serb leadership at least

24     through September of 1992?

25        A.   I'm not aware of that.  I wouldn't jump the gun.  I would not

Page 21377

 1     have issued that order for their arrest myself, so I don't know about

 2     that.

 3        Q.   Mr. Radan, I would now like to turn to an issue that you have

 4     described in your statement and that you discussed this morning regarding

 5     the 30th of September, 1992, expulsion of non-Serbs or departure of

 6     non-Serbs from the Grbavica area.

 7             You testified this morning at T32, line 16 through the next line,

 8     that this was essentially a spontaneous internal agreement among the

 9     parties who lived in the area by the river.  Is that accurate?

10        A.   Not around the river but in the Jewish cemetery,

11     Gornji Kovacici --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter missed the last two names.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were the areas abandoned by

14     the Muslims.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the last two names you mentioned.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Donji Kovacici and Vrbanja.

17             MS. BIBLES:

18        Q.   Mr. Radan, would you agree that there is a -- there is evidence

19     of a different interpretation as to why the non-Serbs left the area on

20     the 30th of 1992 [sic]?

21        A.   This is what I know, but I allow that different things may have

22     been noted.  So let's see them.

23        Q.   You are familiar with the Assembly of the Republika Srpska?  And

24     I should preface that, in 1992.

25        A.   I apologise.  There were various, many Assembly sessions that

Page 21378

 1     were held in 1992.  I don't know which one you have in mind.

 2        Q.   Well, let's look at an Assembly session or notes written by

 3     Ratko Mladic about an Assembly session on 14th of September, 1992, and

 4     see if we agree that they -- the events in this Assembly session might

 5     have impacted the departure of the non-Serbs.

 6             MS. BIBLES:  If we could have P344, page 4 in both versions.

 7        Q.   While we're waiting this to come up I'll ask you if you know who

 8     a Dr. Mitar Miljanovic?

 9        A.   Dr. Mitar Miljanovic is a law professor in Pale.

10        Q.   Mr. Radan, we're looking again at Ratko Mladic's notebook for the

11     14th of September, 1992.

12             MS. BIBLES:  And perhaps we need to go to the next page.  I'm

13     sorry, page 9.

14        Q.   Could you look while I read -- what's reflected in the

15     Ratko Mladic's notes:

16             "The population of Grbavica is 80 per cent non-Serbian; implement

17     the principle of retorsion."

18             Can you tell us what retorsion is?

19        A.   I don't know.  I'm not familiar with that term.  But I did not

20     attend that session.  Why do you want me to interpret things or be the

21     judge of things that happened there and as a result things were noted.

22     How do I do that?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The only thing Ms. Bibles is asking you whether you

24     know what retorsion is.  Your answer is:  I don't know.  No one asks for

25     any judgement from you.

Page 21379

 1             Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

 2             MS. BIBLES:

 3        Q.   Mr. Radan, going to your own opinion --

 4             MS. BIBLES:  And we can take this from the screen.  Thank you.

 5        Q.   In your own opinion, when you evaluate all of the circumstances

 6     of September 1992, you would agree that it's possible that crimes and

 7     harassment against non-Serbs in Novo Sarajevo led them to escape the

 8     area?

 9        A.   What I know is completely different when it comes to the cause of

10     their departure from Grbavica.  If you will allow me, that was a

11     separation line --

12        Q.   Mr. Radan, you have testified here at ICTY twice now.  You've

13     testified in this trial, but you've previously testified in the trial

14     with Radovan Karadzic.  Is that a yes?

15        A.   Once.

16        Q.   And you would agree that you were asked about whether the crimes

17     and harassment against non-Serbs led them to escape the area in that

18     trial as well.  You recall that line of questioning?

19        A.   Yes.  And I also remember my answer.

20        Q.   Would you agree that your answer, at -- the transcript reference

21     is 31126, lines 15 to 18, are -- is:

22             "It is possible, though, that the reasons you mentioned did

23     exist, that people were being subjected to harassment, that they were

24     seeking a way to cross over in order to escape such situations."

25             Does that refresh your memory as to your answer on this line of

Page 21380

 1     questioning?

 2        A.   Yes, absolutely.  Absolutely.  I remember that.  It may have been

 3     one of the causes, but the main reason was the conditions of living.

 4     They were close to the separation line, exposed to the conflicts between

 5     the two sides.  Well, they - both the Serbs and the Muslims who lived

 6     close to that separation line - agreed that they should both cross over

 7     to avoid being hit by a bullet and losing their life.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just get clarification.  I thought

 9     earlier you said that they left because of an internal mutual agreement.

10     Now I hear you saying they left because they were in a war zone.  Which

11     is which, between the two?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was a factual situation.  They

13     were in a war zone.  But they did agree.  No agreement was signed though.

14     However, there was a gentlemen's agreement among neighbours that they

15     should be allowed to cross over to the other side.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Bibles.

17             MS. BIBLES:

18        Q.   Mr. Radan, to -- to actually get at the heart of this

19     30 September 1992 issue, let's go back to your experience.

20             On that date, the 30th of September, you went to work in the

21     municipal building about 8.30 in the morning.  Is that accurate?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You heard people talking inside and outside the building about a

24     group of non-Serbs who crossed the Vrbanja bridge into Sarajevo.  Is that

25     accurate?

Page 21381

 1        A.   Yes, that is accurate.  Many people used to gather in front of

 2     the municipality building at the time, but there were even more on that

 3     occasion, and those were their comments.  And I checked that information

 4     with some authorised officials.

 5        Q.   And, Mr. Radan, at that point, you got in your car, you drove to

 6     Pale, and you consulted with Momo Krajisnik.  Is that true?

 7        A.   No.  On the 2nd of October, I met with President Krajisnik.  So

 8     that was not on that same day, but on the 2nd of October.

 9        Q.   Okay.  You were told that this -- at that -- at that time --

10     that's when I want to get clarity on, you were told at some point that

11     this was a voluntary movement of people organised by the Muslims

12     themselves.  Where did you get that information?

13        A.   You couldn't do anything voluntary on that line without a prior

14     action by the other side.  It was their initiative to cross over in

15     agreement with their Serb neighbours, and they were escorted safely to

16     the Vrbanja bridge on the 30th of the September, around 6.30 in the

17     morning.

18        Q.   Mr. Radan - if we could see 65 ter 3358, please - earlier in your

19     direct testimony, you discussed a -- that SRNA, I believe, is a news

20     agency affiliated with the Republika Srpska?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   When this document comes up, I will direct you into paragraph 2

23     where we see a statement from SRNA about this event.

24             And this reads:

25             "This was not a case of ethnic cleansing of Grbavica from which

Page 21382

 1     the official authorities and bodies of the Serb republic distance

 2     themselves.  This was a case of some groups arbitrarily trying, through

 3     expulsion of Muslim citizens, to pressurise the Muslim authorities ..."

 4             So to be clear, the news agency of the Republika Srpska is saying

 5     that Muslims were expelled -- expelled to pressure the Muslim government.

 6             The statement goes on to say that the facts have been established

 7     in contacts with municipal representatives.

 8             So, Mr. Radan, this would suggest that the RS government said

 9     they had met with Serb municipal authorities in Novo Sarajevo.  Would

10     that have been you?

11        A.   I met with them on the 30th of September, and I see the SRNA

12     report of the 1st October.  They usually report very quickly.

13        Q.   So the information we're reading here came from you?  That's --

14     that's what I'm trying to articulate here.

15        A.   No, no, I didn't make a statement to the SRNA agency.  This

16     information was collected from several persons.  It was not reporting

17     from the site.

18        Q.   Mr. Radan, this morning, at page -- transcript page 34, lines 1

19     and 2, you said that no one said -- "no one said there was an expulsion."

20             You would agree that, in fact, the Republika Srpska's news agency

21     was, in fact, saying there was an expulsion?  So you would agree that

22     your perception of this being some sort of negotiated agreement is

23     inaccurate?

24        A.   I stand by what I've said a moment ago.  I can say nothing more

25     based on this report.  This is a collection, a summary of various other

Page 21383

 1     reports.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I would tender 65 ter 3358.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 3358 receives number P6527,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 7             MS. BIBLES:

 8        Q.   Mr. Radan, let's turn now to the 15th of November, 1992,

 9     symposium that is described or discussed in -- in your statement.

10             MS. BIBLES:  If we could have page 2 of P1967 on our screens.  Or

11     perhaps I could fast-forward through this.

12        Q.   Were you present at the 15 November 1992 symposium, Mr. Radan?

13        A.   Yes, I was there.

14        Q.   Very good.

15             MS. BIBLES:  Let's go head and turn to page 4 in both versions,

16     then.

17        Q.   You would agree that Ratko Mladic was also present for this

18     symposium?

19        A.   At the initiative of General Mladic, this meeting, this

20     consultation, was held.

21        Q.   And at this symposium, an introduction was given by

22     General Galic?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And General Galic starts his introduction by talking about those

25     things that are going well.  Things like the enemy has been

Page 21384

 1     overstretched.  The opponents' morale has dropped.  And he ends that

 2     paragraph by saying:

 3             "Conditions for active offensive operations have been created."

 4             You're following with me in the minutes?

 5        A.   Yes, I can hear you.

 6        Q.   And you would agree --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Where exactly do we find this --

 8             MS. BIBLES:  I'm sorry.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Ms. Bibles?  Because apart from the witness --

10     yes.

11             MS. BIBLES:  At the very top of the English page, Your Honour.

12     The enemy has been overstretched.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What I didn't see is who was speaking.

14     That's --

15             MS. BIBLES:  If we could go back --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  If everyone agrees on the previous page.  I can look

17     at the previous page myself and then find out.

18             MS. BIBLES:

19        Q.   Mr. Radan -- and perhaps I can clear it up.  Mr. Radan, these are

20     comments that were made by General Galic in the introduction?  Is that a

21     yes?  I'm sorry ...

22        A.   Yes, that's what he said.

23        Q.   And then General Galic - excuse me - turns in his introduction to

24     flaws, and in those flaws he reads, he states:

25             "Genocide on other nations ..."

Page 21385

 1             Were you present for -- for the description or the discussion of

 2     the flaws?

 3        A.   I was there the whole time.

 4        Q.   In the symposium, there was considerable amount of evidence or

 5     discussion of unnecessary mistreatment and killing of members of other

 6     ethnicities, especially Muslims.  This was discussed in the symposium.

 7             Would you agree with that?

 8        A.   Yes, some people also said that.

 9        Q.   And in terms of some of the -- who was committing these kinds of

10     offences, there was a discussion of crimes that were going on in the

11     municipality of Novo Sarajevo.  It would be in your understanding.

12             MS. BIBLES:  If we could turn to page 12 in English and 9 and

13     then 10 in the B/C/S versions, I would direct your attention to the

14     record made by Prijic.

15        Q.   Who was Prijic?

16        A.   Mr. Milivoje Prijic was president of the Novo Sarajevo

17     municipality.

18        Q.   In terms of who was responsible for offences, you would agree

19     that he cited to problems involving robberies and shootings by various

20     soldiers?

21        A.   Yes, that's what he stated.

22        Q.   And anyone at the symposium would have been advised and aware

23     that crimes by soldiers in Novo Sarajevo was a problem.

24        A.   Those problems were absent only from Novo Sarajevo, but not in

25     the sense spoken about by Mr. Prijic.  I did talk about such problems,

Page 21386

 1     but that they should be qualified in this way and that that was happening

 2     on that scope, I -- no, that's not true.

 3        Q.   Mr. Radan, I think we have an issue with respect to the use of

 4     the English word "absent."

 5             Is it your -- the transcript would reflect that you said that:

 6             "These problems were absent only from Novo Sarajevo ..."

 7             Did you -- let's see if I can make this clear.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  I made a mistake probably.

 9             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.

10        Q.   Let's turn now --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we would know --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They existed not only in

13     Novo Sarajevo but further afield.

14             MS. BIBLES:

15        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.

16             MS. BIBLES:  Now, if we could turn to page 26 in English and then

17     17, quickly followed by 18, in the B/C/S versions.

18        Q.   Were you there when General Mladic spoke at the end of the

19     symposium and addressed many points that had been raised?

20        A.   I think I wasn't there till the very end because those 20 buses

21     from Sarajevo had arrived in Lukavica, so I didn't listen to all of it.

22     I didn't hear all of it, and I'm very sorry about that, but I cannot

23     confirm exactly at what time I left this gathering with the permission of

24     General Mladic.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But earlier you said that you were there all the

Page 21387

 1     time.  Just a few minutes ago you told us that you were there all the

 2     time.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the most part, I was present,

 4     and then Colonel Zarkovic said the buses arrived and somebody was to go

 5     out and meet them.

 6             MS. BIBLES:

 7        Q.   Were you present when General Mladic spoke at the end of the

 8     symposium?

 9        A.   Yes, yes, I was there.

10        Q.   And you heard him respond to the observations that had been

11     raised in the symposium and say:

12             "People's blood compels us to avenge them."

13             Can you tell us, in your mind, what this was responding to?

14             MS. BIBLES:  I believe on the B/C/S version, we may need to go to

15     the next page.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The signature is that of

17     Aleksa Krsmanovic, Colonel, not General Mladic.  Oh no, sorry, I see he

18     just kept the record.  I can't comment on what the General said but I

19     agree that he was completely right, and -- I'm sorry, but I cannot give

20     you my impressions from that symposium in one or two sentences.  The

21     point of the whole meeting was to reduce the problems on the ground, that

22     military authorities, police authorities, and civilian authorities say

23     and present their problems and then the tasks be issued.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You're not invited to tell us what the overall gist

25     of this event was but you were asked what the line "people's blood

Page 21388

 1     compels us to avenge them," what that was a response to, if you know.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably he was referring to

 3     what was going on on the front line and the conducts that ran counter to

 4     conventions in waging war.  That's how I understand it.  I cannot

 5     interpret the General's words, but that's what I think.

 6             By that time, there had been Muslim offensives and killings,

 7     et cetera.  So the idea was not blood for blood but to act as soldiers

 8     and wage war properly.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, I'm looking at the clock.  I don't know

10     exactly where we stand in terms of time.  I see that you have used a

11     little bit over one and a half hours so half an hour remaining tomorrow,

12     27 minutes to be very precise.

13             Mr. Radan, I'd like to instruct you that you should, until

14     tomorrow when you reappear in this courtroom at 9.30 in the morning, not

15     to speak or communicate with whomever about your testimony, whether that

16     is testimony you've given today, or whether it's testimony still to be

17     given tomorrow.

18             We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in the

19     morning.  You may now follow the usher.

20             Ms. Bibles, you have quoted from a book, which you said was a

21     book authored by Biljana Plavsic, but at least it's related to her.  That

22     seems to be without dispute.

23             MS. BIBLES:  Yes.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You read it.  May I take it that you don't need to

Page 21389

 1     tender it because have you read into the record the relevant passage?

 2             MS. BIBLES:  You have correctly interpreted my actions,

 3     Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that.

 5             Then if there's nothing else at this moment, we adjourn for the

 6     day, and we will resume tomorrow, Friday, the 23rd of May, at 9.30 in the

 7     morning, in this same courtroom, I.

 8             We stand adjourned.

 9                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 23rd day of May,

11                           2014, at 9.30 a.m.