Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21767

 1                           Thursday, 29 May 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.45 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.  We had a late start.  The

 6     first delay was caused by technical problems, and then there were other

 7     problems, which caused further delay.

 8             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

10             This is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             The Chamber was informed that there were a few preliminary

13     matters to be raised.  Defence first.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.

15             First, we want to inform the other party and the Chamber that

16     Exhibit Number D460, MFI'd, and introduced through Witness Trapara was

17     now completed, and we ask your order for the old number, ET 1D08-0858, to

18     be replaced with a completed translation that bears number 1D11-1847.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the only reason why it was not admitted

20     was the lacking translation.  There were no other problems.

21             Madam Registrar, the English translation now in e-court may be

22     replaced by 1D11-1847.

23             Thank you, Mr. Lukic for that.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It's hereby then admitted into evidence because the


Page 21768

 1     old one was MFI'd and the new English translation removes any obstacle to

 2     admission.  Admitted therefore.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Next one, another matter, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, yes, Your Honour.

 6             Yesterday we saw that the Prosecution inquired about the

 7     composition of the witness statement and how it was produced.  We want to

 8     inform Your Honours that our witnesses do not participate in composing

 9     the statement.  They give the statement to members of our team.  They do

10     not know how that statement is finalized.  If the Prosecution wants to

11     inquire how those statements are composed, they should address us.

12             It is our understanding that we include in the statement what we

13     think that should be included, and the Prosecution has the previous

14     statements for cross-examination.  We saw many times in this courtroom,

15     specifically when the Prosecution introduced transcripts, that they took

16     out parts from transcript, from testimony, not only from statements.

17     Then we had the opportunity to cross-examine, to read the transcript.  If

18     we want to ask something, we can ask the witness.

19             So there is no need to clarify such things with our witnesses.

20     We also do not have work product from the investigators from the

21     Prosecution.  So we do not know what they included in their statements.

22     And I think that the work products are not mandatory for disclosure.

23             So I didn't want to object yesterday when this witness was on the

24     stand because I didn't want to raise that issue in front of him.  But

25     as -- as of now, I ask the Prosecution if they want to inquire why


Page 21769

 1     something is added or left, they can inquire through cross-examination.

 2     And that's all what we have as a preliminary matter this morning,

 3     Your Honours.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  On the latter point, Mr. Groome, do you

 5     want to respond.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Just briefly, Your Honour.  I think certainly the

 7     Prosecution is entitled to explore differences between the statements,

 8     including omissions and additions, just as the Defence did.  I'm not

 9     exactly sure what particular questions Mr. Lukic is objecting to, but may

10     I suggest that he do object and maybe address them in the context of a

11     specific question that's put to the witness.  But as far as I'm aware or

12     as far as -- my position is that all the questions we've asked have been

13     proper.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I say something.  The only -- the only little

15     contradiction, Mr. Lukic, in what you are saying, you said at the

16     beginning that if the Prosecution wants to know how your statements are

17     composed ask you and not the witness.  But your last sentence says:

18             "... they can inquire through cross-examination.  And that's all

19     we have as a preliminary matter this morning."

20             And that's what they did.  They inquired through

21     cross-examination.

22             MR. LUKIC:  They inquired about the parts of the statement they

23     want to inquire.  But they cannot inquire with our witnesses how the

24     statement is composed.  They do not know.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  But --


Page 21770

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, no --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  But differences, of course, they can cross-examine.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Okay, thank you.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  That's not an issue.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That clarifies.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And it may be a bit more complex.  Of course, if you

 8     ask a witness about a process of composing a statement which they do not

 9     know about, then the simple answer would be:  I can't tell you.  So,

10     therefore, there is no problem.

11             And your comparison with the selection of transcript portions is

12     not the best comparison I could think of.  Because, first of all,

13     everything is available.  It's clear that it's a selection.  And the

14     issue, as far as I understood it, for the Prosecution, may be that,

15     although there are dates of interviews - sometimes three, four days -

16     that result in almost literally the same text as a statement, and I think

17     that that is what triggered some attention.

18             But, again, I fully agree with you that if a witness is asked a

19     question about how a statement was composed, if he doesn't know, his

20     answer cannot be anything else than:  I do not know.  But, of course, if

21     there are differences with the previous statements, and if the

22     Prosecution thinks that it may have some meaning, they can verify with a

23     witness, either whether the witness didn't say it again or didn't tell

24     you again, that's something which is within the realm of knowledge of the

25     witness; or whether they intentionally left out and, if so, for what


Page 21771

 1     reason.  I mean, those questions, of course, a witness could answer.  And

 2     therefore composition of a statement is a bit more of a complex issue

 3     than just who wrote down at what moment, what exactly, but also on the

 4     basis of what were notes taken.  Did you say -- did you repeat this

 5     again, you have told it the Karadzic Defence before, et cetera.  These

 6     are, as far as I can see at this moment, questions a witness can answer.

 7     I don't know whether you have any objection to that as well.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  All I'm objecting is -- the questions asked about --

 9     posed to the witness how the statement is composed --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

11             MR. LUKIC:  -- because they do not know that.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then I think matters become more or less

13     clear and --

14             MR. LUKIC:  And if I can just explain why the statements are

15     almost the same.  Of course, the same people, the same incidents, the

16     same indictment.  Of course, that we had only some additions or

17     omissions.  If the -- we are not interested, for example, in detailed

18     functioning of SDS or stuff like that.  But if the witness is talking

19     about the same incident, and this witness did yesterday, the same

20     incident he testified previously in the Karadzic case, of course, that we

21     do not change much in that statement.  We tried not to change much --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The issue is whether you change much or whether the

23     witness changes much, it's still a statement of a witness --

24             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- rather than a copied version of, and, of course,


Page 21772

 1     you can ask questions about how the interview developed.  All these

 2     questions, in my view, are legitimate questions.  But I do agree with

 3     you, there are questions where the witness couldn't give an answer, and,

 4     therefore, the answer would always be:  I can't tell you, I don't know.

 5     And we keep a close eye on that if such things will happen.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That is then dealt with.  There was a preliminary

 8     matter also by the Prosecution to be raised.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Good morning, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Weber.

11             MR. WEBER:  Yesterday during the court proceedings, there was a

12     copy of the statement with notes on it.  The Prosecution has had the

13     opportunity to -- to review that and we would be asking to increase our

14     cross-examination time, if we could respectively request that, for up to

15     45 minutes.  Although I will try to be much more efficient in my

16     examination than the additional 45 minutes but we would need some

17     additional time.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  I spoke with my colleague, Weber, this morning, and

20     we do not have any objections.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, when the Chamber left this courtroom

23     yesterday, I said to my colleagues, Oh, I said to the witness that it

24     would be given back after the break, and I noticed that he had not

25     received it yesterday, so I felt that I had not kept a promise.


Page 21773

 1             Is the original available to be returned to the witness?

 2                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 3             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, we do have the copy here.  And we can

 4     provide it back to the -- to the Registry.  However, could we see how the

 5     examination goes and then decide whether or not it's something that the

 6     Chamber may want --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Unless the witness raises the issue himself, that he

 8     has not received it back yet --

 9             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  But it is his property and he gave it to you

11     voluntarily and not in a situation -- at least in a situation where he

12     could expect to get the original back.  So for one reason or another,

13     that should be done, and if there would be any dispute as to handwriting

14     or, et cetera, and if you for that purpose need the original, you can

15     keep it for the session.  If the witness raises the issue, we'll have to

16     deal with it.

17             So we leave it, at this moment, and we expect you -- and we'll

18     first wait for the -- how the examination develops.

19             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour, and understood.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the witness be escorted into the

21     courtroom.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Maletic.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.


Page 21774

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all, our apologies that you had to wait for

 2     half an hour, but we had some technical problems and some other

 3     procedural issues we had to deal with first.  But you're now here.

 4             I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn

 5     declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony, and

 6     Mr. Weber will now continue his cross-examination.

 7             Mr. Weber.

 8                           WITNESS:  DRAGAN MALETIC [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber: [Continued]

11        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Maletic.

12        A.   Good morning.

13        Q.   Yesterday you mentioned that you had a conversation with

14     Predrag Trapara before your testimony started.  Is it correct that you

15     discussed matters related to your testimony with him?

16        A.   It was an informal conversation, and I only learned the names of

17     those two girls from him.  I was aware of the event, but I didn't know

18     their names.  He told me the names.

19        Q.   How did this subject come up?

20        A.   I don't recall it in such detail.

21        Q.   You've both -- by the date you gave, it appears you both have

22     been here for -- for over a week.  Did you talk with Mr. Trapara on any

23     other occasions?

24        A.   We spoke before he began testifying.

25        Q.   Okay.  Was that on one occasion or on multiple occasions?


Page 21775

 1        A.   Perhaps a couple of times.  I don't remember.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Was this on a daily basis before he testified?

 3        A.   We discussed everything.  Life and such.  We talked about

 4     anything that we could -- that we could think of when we saw each other.

 5        Q.   And my question, just going back to it, related to basically how

 6     often you spoke with him between when you arrived in The Hague and before

 7     Mr. Trapara's testimony.  Can you tell us whether that was every day, a

 8     couple of days?  Approximately how many times?

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

10             It is an unclear question, causing confusion with the witness.

11     He needs to be asked whether he discussed the case with Trapara or

12     whether they talked about each other's lives, as the witness said.

13     There's a big difference.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.  Mr. Stojanovic, you can object to a

15     question, but you can't tell Mr. Weber what he should have asked.

16             Another matter is that the witness said already that it has been

17     several times.  I don't know ... and your last question was:  "Can you

18     tell us whether that was every day, a couple of days?  Approximately how

19     many times?"

20             Could you be a bit more precise on how many conversations you had

21     with Mr. Trapara?  You said:  "Perhaps a couple of times."

22             Was it three times, five times, ten times?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Twice or thrice.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Was that on one day, or was it on more than one day?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps in a couple of days.


Page 21776

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you speak with him alone; that is, under

 2     four eyes?  Or were others present during those conversations?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were together.  I spoke to him.

 4     I spoke to Pedja because we hadn't seen each other for quite sometime.

 5     We talked about each other's families, life, et cetera.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Pedja is -- is whom?  Is that the same person, or is

 7     that a third person?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Predrag Trapara.  It is the same

 9     person.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Same person.

11             My question was whether you had these conversations under four

12     eyes or whether others were present as well.  Was at any moment during

13     such a conversation someone else present who either listened or may have

14     participated in your conversations?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember such details.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Was ever any of the members of the Defence team

17     present when you had a conversation with Mr. Trapara?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, please proceed.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One additional question, please.

21             When did you arrive in The Hague?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 16th, in the evening.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

25             MR. WEBER:


Page 21777

 1        Q.   When you spoke with Mr. Trapara, was it at the same location on

 2     these different occasions?

 3        A.   I think we spoke in the hotel, in the lobby.

 4        Q.   And just so we have a clear record, was that on every occasion

 5     that you spoke with him, that you're describing?

 6        A.   I'm not sure what you mean?

 7        Q.   I'll rephrase.  Did you speak with him anywhere else besides the

 8     hotel?

 9        A.   I don't think so.  Well, perhaps we did take a walk because I

10     walked a lot in these days.  But I can't remember whether we took any

11     walks together.  I don't think so, though.  I think I only spoke to him

12     in the hotel.

13        Q.   You've broadly said that you spoke with Mr. Trapara about a lot

14     of things; everything, I believe, is what you said.  Aside from the two

15     girls, did you speak with him about any topic that related to your

16     evidence here, or Mr. Trapara's?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Did you watch Mr. Trapara's testimony?

19        A.   No, I had no occasion to do so.

20        Q.   Did you speak with Mr. Trapara at all after his testimony?

21        A.   I think we saw each other after his testimony because he was

22     preparing to travel.  But that was it.

23        Q.   When you saw him after the testimony, did you discuss anything

24     related to his own testimony?

25        A.   No.


Page 21778

 1        Q.   You didn't even ask him something simple, like:  How did it go?

 2        A.   I don't remember.  We don't share any particular common

 3     interests, so there was no reason for me to ask.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Have you seen or communicated with any other people that

 5     have either testified already in this case or will be testifying in this

 6     case?

 7        A.   I saw some people who had testified and who are yet to testify,

 8     but we didn't broach the topic.  Because all of us were in different

 9     places at the time, and we didn't have much in common.

10        Q.   If we could just break this up.  If you could just please give us

11     the names of the people that you've spoken with.

12        A.   Mr. Cvoro.  I have already mentioned Predrag Trapara.

13     Slavko Gengo.  I don't recall any other names or --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  I can't recall the

15     names of the others.

16             MR. WEBER:

17        Q.   Okay.  There are possibly others that -- that were present.  Do I

18     understand you correctly?  Or that you've had conversations with?

19        A.   During my stay here, I saw some of those people.  We talked, we

20     learned about each other, we took walks, et cetera.

21        Q.   Have you spoken with Milorad Dzida?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Okay.  When I just asked you a second ago about the names, is

24     there any reason that you did not recall that you had spoken with

25     Mr. Dzida?


Page 21779

 1        A.   I said I couldn't remember, but I spoke to everyone who was here

 2     until now.  So whoever was here, up until now, I spoke to them.

 3        Q.   Was this all at one time or were these --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I --

 5             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not a clear answer to the question.

 7             A minute ago, when asked for names, you said:

 8             "I don't remember the names of those with whom I had a

 9     conversation."

10             Mr. Weber then asked you, when you said a minute later, that you

11     had a conversation with Dzida, why you didn't remember his name a minute

12     before.  Your answer now is, I spoke to all of them, which is not an

13     answer to the question.  The question was:  Why didn't you remember that

14     specific name, where you seem to remember it one minute later and without

15     any hesitation.  Did you speak with Dzida; yes, I did.  That's the

16     question.

17             Have you an answer why a minute later you remembered the name?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I recalled his name.  So let me say

19     it again.  I talked to all of them.  It's just that at that particular

20     moment I couldn't recall his name.  So I talked to all of the witnesses

21     thus far.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Weber, if I may just clear something on the

24     record.

25             So you did speak to Mile Sladoje?  If do you this, you're not


Page 21780

 1     recorded.  Say it loud -- say in your voice.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  If you're nodding, it doesn't appear on --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  On the record.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the transcript.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you speak with Mile Sladoje?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We met.  We hadn't met before,

 7     though.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, but you spoke.  You said you have spoken to

 9     all of them.  Mile Sladoje was here.  Did you speak with him?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Branko Radan?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Dusan Skrba?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Nikola Mijatovic?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then one additional question.

19             You -- did you touch upon the subject of the testimony you were

20     all to give here in this courtroom?  Did you talk about that?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Most of them I only met here,

22     so I talked to them when we were introduced, and so on.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So if I understand you well, you never

24     discussed testimony to be given or the subject of appearing before this

25     court as a witness.  And then, suddenly, at one moment, either your


Page 21781

 1     counterpart or you say:  By the way, the names of the girls were A and B.

 2     And that was not in the framework of any discussion about testifying.  It

 3     was just -- came out of the blue?  You're not discussing testimony, and

 4     suddenly he said:  By the way, if you wouldn't know the names, these were

 5     the names; or you said:  Do you remember the names?

 6             I have difficulties in understanding how this suddenly comes up

 7     if you are speaking with no one about your testimony appearing as a

 8     witness.  Whereas the main and -- reason for you all to be here is that

 9     you were called as witnesses.

10             I would -- if I were in such a situation -- it's not forbidden.

11     It's not in any way forbidden.  I would have discussed with those I would

12     meet, because why not?  I mean, that's what you're ... could you explain

13     that to me.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I talked with Predrag Trapara

15     shortly about the case.  With others, I did not.  Because we were not in

16     the same positions.  Predrag Trapara was a member of our battalion.  So,

17     in discussion, a short one, about my statement, when I mentioned this, he

18     reminded me of the names of the girls.  I was aware of the incident, but

19     I did not know the names.  He just told me that he did know them and that

20     was why I noted them, and I had been aware of the incident.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

22             MR. WEBER:

23        Q.   Sir, yesterday you brought to court a copy of your statement with

24     notes on the -- the back page, or last pages.  Could you just tell us

25     what these notes are?


Page 21782

 1        A.   I noted something down for myself in case I needed a reminder,

 2     and that's it.  Probably you were the first that read it but that was

 3     something that I wrote.

 4        Q.   Were these notes based on your own personal knowledge or the

 5     knowledge of anything that you heard or information you received from

 6     anyone else?

 7        A.   Well, some of the things I heard or learned from others and so on

 8     and so forth.

 9        Q.   Okay.  If the Prosecution -- we'll go to these notes, and I'd

10     like to discuss them with you.

11             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30720.  If

12     we could please go to page 10 of the B/C/S and page 1 of the English

13     translation.  There's just a single page of translation related to the

14     notes, but it's the full copy of the statement that was brought.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I see the text on one of the screens before me but

16     not mine.  There we are.

17             MR. WEBER:  Thank you very much.

18        Q.   Sir, these are the notes that you produced yesterday in court.

19     On the page before you to the left, can you confirm that this is your

20     handwriting?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   When did you write these notes?

23        A.   These days, when I arrived here, to The Hague.

24        Q.   Were they written all at once or on different occasions?

25        A.   On several occasions.


Page 21783

 1        Q.   Now, there appears to be three lines drawn across the paper which

 2     appear to divide your notes into four different sections.  I'd like to go

 3     through each one with you.

 4             The first section, the translation that we have available states:

 5             "If there were any it is allowed during the war time since there

 6     were no conditions, that is the escape.  There were no liquidations and

 7     therefore such allegation is insignificant.  And even if the conditions

 8     were met but they weren't, such security vigilance is tolerant during the

 9     war."

10             Mr. Maletic, could you just tell us what -- what this is about.

11        A.   This is about an order, and I'm reacting to it.  I think it dated

12     from 1993.  I was asked why, when someone approached the first line of

13     the front, if he wouldn't stop and began to flee, why he should be

14     liquidated.

15        Q.   Okay.  How did this come up that you felt that you needed to take

16     a note about this order?

17        A.   I was confronted with it the previous time, when I was a witness

18     in the Karadzic case.  That was why I noted it, approximately.

19        Q.   Was this something that you discussed with other witnesses who

20     appeared?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to the second section.  It appears -- or it

23     states:

24             "This is absolutely related to the military targets" --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we go to the -- this paragraph.  The first


Page 21784

 1     line in the previous paragraph reads:  "... that is the escape."

 2             Escape from what?

 3             "If there were any it is allowed during the war since there were

 4     no conditions, that is the escape."

 5             Escape from what?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Escape from the separation line

 7     that was the forward front line.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  "If there were any ..."  What does the "any" stand

 9     for?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Any escapes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  What is "allowed during the war time"?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If someone approaches the forward

13     line, if he doesn't stop or if he begins to flee, such a person shall be

14     liquidated.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So "if there were any" relates, rather, to

16     liquidations than to escapes.  Because "if there were any, it is allowed

17     during the war time."  "Any," then, being to liquidate someone who tries

18     to escape?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is fired -- one is supposed to

20     fire at those who are attempting to escape.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, in this context, if I read the whole of

22     the line, the last few words "that is the escape," makes no sense anymore

23     in this line.  Because then it would read "if there were any," that is,

24     firing at people who tried to escape, "it is allowed during the war time,

25     since there were no conditions, that is the escape."


Page 21785

 1             It doesn't make sense to me at all, especially not the last

 2     couple of words.

 3             So, then, again, my question, escape from what, becomes more

 4     urgent.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Escape from the forward line, to

 6     the enemy line.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I still have difficulties in understanding it,

 8     but I leave it to that at this moment.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My problem - if I may just ask a question - is

11     that Judge Orie asked you "if there were any," and he said what is the

12     "any."  You said escape, and later you said liquidation.

13             So which is which between those two?  If there were any escapes

14     or if there were any liquidations?  Seems to make sense if there were any

15     escapes it is allowed during war time since there were no conditions --

16             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Liquidation.  I interrupted you.  Say what you

18     want to say.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I continue there, and I say

20     there -- "since there were no conditions," that is, the escape, there

21     were no liquidations.  And therefore such allegation is insignificant.

22     "And even if the conditions were met but they weren't, such security

23     vigilance is tolerant during the war."

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

25             MR. WEBER:


Page 21786

 1        Q.   Was this a justification that you were expecting to provide for

 2     allegations of sniping committed by members of the Sarajevo-Romanija

 3     Corps?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   What's the allegations that you're referring to?

 6        A.   You will probably reach that section.  It's an order of mine, the

 7     details of which I cannot remember now.  It dates from 1993.  That

 8     certain -- I can't remember now, but if we reach that part, I will note

 9     it for you, and I will tell you what it is about.

10        Q.   Sir, as I understand your evidence as of right now, you are

11     saying that you can't remember the nature of the allegations; is that

12     correct?

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  As I understand the witness, he doesn't remember

14     the order.  Your -- he hasn't answered your question.

15             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  You're right.

16        Q.   Do you recall the nature of the allegation?

17        A.   If we get to that case, I will probably recall.  I cannot

18     remember right now.

19             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I know the schedule today was a

20     little -- I can take the break if Your Honours would like to go past

21     schedule or I can continue --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it would be best to take the break now and

23     then to continue in the usual order.

24             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness first be escorted out of the


Page 21787

 1     courtroom.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, and we'll resume at ten minutes to

 4     11.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I again have to apologise.  There was some urgent

 9     matters which kept us busy and which we thought would be more quickly

10     resolved than they actually were.

11             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

14             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

15        Q.   Mr. Maletic, I'm going to go on to the second section from the

16     top in these notes.  It states:

17             "This is absolutely related to the military targets and that can

18     be justified from the tactical point of view because it is related to the

19     military force from the opposing side.  There was no such order, written

20     or verbal, in terms of civilians.  There were many enemy points in that

21     area and legitimate military targets."

22             What was this section about?

23        A.   During my previous testimony, I was confronted by something that

24     another witness said, that they were given orders to shoot at anything

25     that was moving, which is not correct.  So I noted this in case you were


Page 21788

 1     to ask me the same thing.  I would say that the idea was that it was

 2     legitimate to target military targets and that there was never either a

 3     written or a verbal order to target civilians but to target enemy

 4     targets.

 5        Q.   The section, I believe, concludes that -- with the statement:

 6             "Such statements are arbitrary and fabricated.  If he made such

 7     statement, did he act upon it."

 8             What statements are you talking about?

 9        A.   I wonder, actually - this is my opinion - I wonder if he had such

10     an order to shoot at the other side.  If he received something like that,

11     did he act in accordance with it.  That's what I'm wondering here.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Who is this "he"?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  There was a

14     testimony.  It was a protected witness, and it was presented to me that

15     he claimed that we ordered that any moving targets on the opposing side

16     should be shot at.  And I claim that we never issued any such orders,

17     that civilian targets were to be shot at, but, rather, just the military

18     targets.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Who presented that to you?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was during the previous trial.

21     That's where they presented it to me and so I noted it down.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I -- of course, the Chamber has no -- has not

23     looked into the Karadzic transcripts and so, therefore, I take it that

24     the parties will be able to identify what the witness is now talking

25     about.


Page 21789

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. WEBER:

 3        Q.   Was this anything that you discussed with anyone prior to your

 4     testimony in this case?

 5        A.   No.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, unless you had any other questions on

 7     this section I was going to go to the next one.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You can go to the next one.  But, of course, the

 9     Chamber would -- since it's not in evidence would appreciate if the

10     parties would verify whether and what statement was put to the witness in

11     a previous testimony as he tells us now, whether that happened; and, if

12     so, what statement that was.

13             MR. WEBER:  Understood, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, and I leave it to either you,

15     Mr. Stojanovic, or you, Mr. Weber.  Please proceed.

16             MR. WEBER:

17        Q.   The next section states:

18             "Pursuant to the decision of the RS Supreme Court in 1992, the

19     status of a volunteer in the RS -- VRS is that the volunteer in the VRS

20     has no attribute of voluntariness but is a legitimate and legal member of

21     the VRS who can join the army voluntarily but as such could not leave the

22     unit without authorisation of the command because he had the same

23     treatment like any other combatant."

24             Same question, Mr. Maletic:  What is this about?

25        A.   I noted this for myself, and it is with regard to volunteers.


Page 21790

 1        Q.   Why did you -- why would you make note of volunteers in advance

 2     of your testimony?

 3        A.   Why not?

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5        A.   It was a note of mine, a personal note.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber is asking you what the relevance of such a

 7     note was in this context.  And to say:  It's my note, and why not?  You

 8     could have made notes about the Olympic Winter Games as well, but that,

 9     of course, is not -- doesn't explain what the relevance for it is.

10             So could you please answer that question.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if the Prosecutor were to ask

12     me about volunteers, then I would read out this paragraph to him.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Why about volunteers?  Have you been a volunteer?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Why did you deal with -- why did you expect to be

16     asked about volunteers?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I expected that, so in case I

18     was asked that, I wanted to know what I would say.  I was asked about

19     that in the previous trial so that was why I supposed that the Prosecutor

20     could ask me that here.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now I understand that.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Were there any volunteers in your unit or the

23     units you were in?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were a few volunteers.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.


Page 21791

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 2             MR. WEBER:

 3        Q.   Since we're on that topic, could you tell us their names?

 4        A.   Whose names?

 5        Q.   The names of the volunteers that were in your unit.

 6        A.   I couldn't tell you.  I can't remember the names.  In my unit, in

 7     my company, there were between 100 and 120 men and around 1.000 men in

 8     the battalion, so I can't remember the names.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Did Your Honours have any other questions about this

10     section?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Please proceed.

12             MR. WEBER:

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 21792

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we move briefly into private session.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 21793

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 6

 7

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10

11  Pages 21793-21794 redacted.  Private session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

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24

25


Page 21795

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

15             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution, at this time, tenders 65 ter 30720

16     into evidence.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objection.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30720 receives number P6540,

20     Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  P6540 is admitted.

22             MR. WEBER:

23        Q.   Mr. Maletic, I'm now going to through a number of topics with you

24     for the rest of today.

25             Starting when you were the battalion's assistant commander for


Page 21796

 1     intelligence and security, did you allow people to freely move around

 2     your zone of responsibility?

 3        A.   Well, there was freedom of movement.  I don't understand.

 4        Q.   Did you ever issue orders to deprive individuals of their freedom

 5     to move throughout your zone?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30693.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The right answer to the previous question would

 9     therefore have been:  We allowed but not always.  If you order

10     restrictions on it, then the answer "there was freedom of movement" is

11     not a complete answer.

12             Could I remind you that you're not only bound to tell us the

13     truth but even the whole truth.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. WEBER:  Thanks for your patience, Your Honours.

16        Q.   Sir, before you is an information report you sent to the

17     4th Company on the 6th of March, 1993.  In this document, you indicate

18     that there were three foreign journalists from Australia and Holland on

19     RS territory.

20             You state that these journalists:

21             "Demonstrated unhidden hatred and lack of objectivity where Serbs

22     were concerned.  By their writing, footages and reporting, the said

23     persons caused invaluable harm to the Serb people on the international

24     level."

25             Is it correct that these journalists were reporting on the


Page 21797

 1     activities and crimes that were being committed by the VRS and you felt

 2     this coverage was not objective?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Then what -- how did they lack objectivity, according to

 5     you?

 6        A.   That information we received from the brigade command.  And then

 7     we sent it further down to the level of companies.  And then we would

 8     forward that; that is to say, information received from the brigade

 9     command.

10        Q.   Sir, please listen to my question carefully.  What I asked you

11     was:  How did these journalists lack objectivity?

12        A.   Well, probably -- well, you see here, the mentioned journalists

13     in their work to date demonstrated unhidden hatred and lack of

14     objectivity towards Serbs.  That's written here.

15             Therefore, control should be enhanced and if these persons are

16     found, they should be deprived of their freedom of movement and brought

17     into the battalion command.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, there seems to be a confusion between

19     question and the understanding of the answer.  You asked whether the

20     witness felt and what, according to him, was not objective.

21             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness's answer was:  We received these orders

23     and we passed them on.  Meaning that the witness may not have developed

24     his own judgement on the objectivity but it was sent to him.

25             MR. WEBER:  Yeah.


Page 21798

 1        Q.   Sir, if we could go to the signature line on this document.  It's

 2     on the second page, I believe.  Or at the bottom.

 3             Sir, that's -- that's your signature on this document, is that

 4     correct?  This is a report from you?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Sir, is on that basis, since you are the actual author of this

 7     document, what your reference was to the journalists' lack of

 8     objectivity, what you did mean by that?

 9        A.   I received that information from the brigade command, and I sent

10     it on to company level.  I rephrased the order, sent it to company level,

11     so I am not familiar with the journalists.  I'm only familiar with the

12     information that I passed on.  But I compiled this note or, rather, this

13     information and I signed it.

14        Q.   That's understood.  You've mentioned this, that the -- that --

15     well, in this document, you order the 4th Company to immediately deprive

16     the journalists of their freedom of movement and seize their documents,

17     material, and equipment.

18             Did -- did your battalion, after you gave orders like this, carry

19     them out?

20        A.   We did not have this specific case, so we did not bring them in.

21        Q.   Okay.  Is it correct that you had the ability to control the

22     movement of individuals throughout your zone of responsibility?  You had

23     the ability to issue orders to do such a thing; correct?

24        A.   We could not follow the depth of movement.  We could not follow

25     anyone.  And the journalists were there.  This refers to the first line


Page 21799

 1     of combat, the actual front line.

 2        Q.   Is it correct that you had the authority to issue orders to

 3     restrict the movement of others?

 4        A.   No.  We got that by way of information or orders from the brigade

 5     command.  I did not have the right to ban movement.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Did you -- I'll move on then.

 7             MR. WEBER:  We tender this document into evidence, if we could,

 8     please.  65 ter 30693.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30693 receives number P6541,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P6541 is admitted.

13             MR. WEBER:

14        Q.   Sir, is it correct that soldiers are prohibited from committing

15     rape?

16             Sir, did you hear my question?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Okay.  I'll repeat it since the record might not be clear right

19     now.

20             Is it correct that soldiers are prohibited from committing rape?

21        A.   That's always prohibited, in wartime and in peacetime, to rape.

22        Q.   Did you ever investigate any soldiers in Grbavica for committing

23     rape?

24        A.   No.

25             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P346,


Page 21800

 1     page 158 of the English translation, and page 160 of the B/C/S.

 2        Q.   Sir, coming up before you will be an entry from General Mladic's

 3     notebooks dated 25 March 1993.  It's with respect to a meeting between

 4     General Mladic and Prime Minister Radomir Lukic.  In this entry, and it's

 5     a little up from the bottom for you, General Mladic records:

 6             "Some soldiers rape even Serbian women (in Grbavica).  (Lukic)

 7     himself took someone who had done this out of Sarajevo (he wouldn't say

 8     his name)."

 9             Is it correct that this entry reflects the living conditions that

10     were existing inside of Grbavica?

11        A.   I am saying for my own part -- actually, first, when I was

12     company commander in 1992, as for my area of defence, these soldiers did

13     not rape anyone.  That is what I am asserting.

14             As for in-depth in Grbavica, I don't know what happened there.

15        Q.   Sir, this entry is from 1993.  You were the assistant commander

16     for security and intelligence for this area in 1993.  Are you saying that

17     were not aware of something that General Mladic was aware of and the

18     prime minister of Republika Srpska was also aware of?

19             Is that what you're saying?

20        A.   I'm trying to say that that did not happen in my battalion.

21        Q.   Okay.  Are you aware of soldiers committing rape in Grbavica?

22        A.   I was not aware of that.

23        Q.   Sir, I put it to that you your testimony of not knowing about

24     these rapes lacks credibility.  General Mladic and Prime Minister Lukic

25     were aware of these rapes and that you were in a position to know, and


Page 21801

 1     here today you are claiming not to.  Do you have any comment?

 2        A.   I am saying that no one from my battalion, that is to say, I

 3     don't know of any rapes, and no one from my battalion committed any

 4     rapes.  That is what I'm saying.

 5        Q.   Did anyone -- did General Mladic or anyone else from the --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, you know that you are supposed to remain

 7     seated, and -- Mr. Stojanovic.

 8             No -- no loud speaking, Mr. Mladic.  And if you stand up again,

 9     you're removed from the courtroom.  Let that be clear.  And the same is

10     true for any loud speaking on from now.

11             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

12             MR. WEBER:

13        Q.   Is it then correct that you never received any instruction from a

14     superior command or General Mladic to investigate this information?

15        A.   An investigation was not carried out.  I repeat:  I did not know

16     and there were no rapes in my battalion.  So there was no investigation

17     either.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could -- could I seek clarification.

19             You are again and again repeating "in my battalion."  I do

20     understand clearly from your answer that you say that no soldier in your

21     battalion committed rape.

22             Do you have any awareness of soldiers outside your battalion or

23     even non-soldiers committing rapes in Grbavica?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not aware.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.


Page 21802

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   Did any Serb women from Grbavica ever make a complaint?

 3        A.   I am not familiar with such information.  Maybe some reports were

 4     made at the police station, the civilian police station.  That was in the

 5     depth of the territory, but, believe me, I'm not aware of that.

 6             As for everything that happened in depth, it was the civilian

 7     police that was in charge, and they were carrying out these tasks,

 8     preventing looting, rape, and so on.

 9        Q.   Sir, just so you know, it's our position that that answer is --

10     is not correct, that the military authorities would have had the

11     authority over carrying out discipline for soldiers who committed rapes.

12             Do you not agree?

13        A.   No problem.  But I claim that there were no rapes in my

14     battalion.  That's what I've been saying.

15        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to the next topic.

16             Is it correct that soldiers are prohibited from looting?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Did you ever investigate any soldiers in Grbavica for looting?

19        A.   No.

20             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P357,

21     requesting page 79 of the English and page 80 of the B/C/S.

22        Q.   Sir, coming up before you will be another entry from

23     General Mladic's notebooks, dated 21 January 1993, from a session with

24     the Supreme Command.

25             In this entry, I'm going to be directing you to the notes under


Page 21803

 1     Colonel Kovacevic's name.  This entry records Colonel Kovacevic as

 2     stating:

 3             "He (Colonel Milosevic) is very brave and audacious.  He did not

 4     cope well at Grbavica because did he not prevent looting and crime ..."

 5             Is it correct that your initial brigade commander,

 6     then-Colonel Dragomir Milosevic, did not take action to prevent the

 7     looting and crime in Grbavica?

 8        A.   As far as I know, there were always orders about the prohibition

 9     of crime, looting, and so on.

10        Q.   It appears from this entry that looting and crime were taking

11     place in Grbavica.  Were you aware of this?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Again, sir, we have General Mladic at a meeting with the

14     Supreme Command, which appears to include President Karadzic, the prime

15     minister again, what appears to be possibly Bogdan Subotic and other

16     high-ranking members.  Is it really your evidence that General Mladic and

17     these individuals in these very high positions would know about looting

18     and crime in Grbavica and you who is the assistant commander of security

19     and intelligence for that very area would not?

20        A.   Yes.  Yes, I didn't know.

21        Q.   Again, I put it to you that your evidence on this lacks

22     credibility.  You were there every day and you were in a position to

23     know, and you are claiming not to.  Do you have any comment?

24        A.   All I can say is that I don't know what happened in depth in

25     Grbavica because it is a large piece of territory.  I'm not familiar with


Page 21804

 1     it.

 2        Q.   It was your zone of responsibility; correct?

 3        A.   It wasn't solely our zone of responsibility, and it wasn't only

 4     our soldiers were there.  Grbavica is much bigger than that.  There were

 5     other soldiers, and there were policemen there.  So it wasn't exclusively

 6     my zone of responsibility.

 7        Q.   And I just want to be clear:  Are you claiming that with respect

 8     to when you were a company commander or also when you were battalion

 9     commander -- or assistant commander?  Excuse me, sir.

10        A.   Both.

11        Q.   Is it your evidence that you never became aware of any soldiers

12     that were committing looting or other crimes?

13        A.   As concerns my unit, that is correct.

14        Q.   Sir, my question wasn't limited to your unit.

15        A.   I said I wasn't familiar with that.  I only spoke of my unit.  As

16     for the rest, I had no such information or knowledge.

17        Q.   Sir, I'm just going to pause here for a second.  Throughout your

18     statement, you claim to have very detailed information about stuff that

19     is going on on the opposing side of the confrontation line, areas that I

20     imagine you did not actually go to.  How is it that you are claiming that

21     you have no knowledge of areas that you were around during the -- the

22     time of the war, that were, in fact, part of your zone of responsibility?

23        A.   I interviewed defectors, those who escaped from the other side,

24     and I obtained information in that way.  That is why -- how I knew about

25     what was going on on the other side.  At least to a certain extent.


Page 21805

 1        Q.   What I'm saying to you, sir, is that there seems to be quite a

 2     contrast.  How is it not -- that you would not know similar information

 3     about what is going on on your own side?

 4        A.   As for the depth of our territory, it was in the area of our

 5     police.  They were taking care of it.  They were actually tasked with

 6     working there.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, please move on.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Okay.  Thank you.

10        Q.   I'd like to go onto -- is it correct that a military is

11     prohibited from forcing the expulsions of civilians from an area?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Did you ever take any action to -- or with respect to expulsions

14     of civilians from Grbavica?

15        A.   I didn't understand your question.  Could you reformulate?

16        Q.   Did you ever participate or become aware of expulsions of

17     civilians from Grbavica?

18        A.   No.  I'm not aware of any civilians being forced to leave

19     Grbavica.

20             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P307.

21        Q.   Sir, coming up before you is a UN CIVPOL occurrence report dated

22     30 September 1992.  It's regarding the expulsion of Muslim civilians from

23     Grbavica.

24             In the second paragraph, this report indicates that the

25     preliminary information confirmed that the expulsion was in progress, and


Page 21806

 1     the Muslims were gathering at the Bristol Hotel.

 2             It further indicates that the civil affairs unit was unaware of

 3     the exact situation at that time.

 4             If I could direct you down to the fourth paragraph, which, in the

 5     B/C/S, continues onto the next page, the report indicates the civil

 6     affairs unit arrived and made a series of observations.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Could we please have the next page for the witness in

 8     the B/C/S?

 9        Q.   As you read on, the unit was able to confirm that approximately

10     300 Muslim civilians were expelled by the Serbs from the area of

11     Grbavica.

12             Do you agree that this act, that expelling Muslim -- part of the

13     Muslim population from Grbavica was an act that was prohibited by the

14     rules of war?

15        A.   Expulsion is prohibited.  As for those who left Grbavica, perhaps

16     it was in agreement with the civilian authorities that they demanded to

17     leave.  I don't know about that.  You would need to put that question to

18     a representative of the civilian authorities.

19        Q.   Are you again claiming that you were not aware of this event?

20        A.   I claim that I was unaware of this situation.

21        Q.   Okay.  This paragraph continues to state information about the

22     Red Cross.  It says, and this goes onto the next page in the English:

23             "Red Cross member confirmed that the expelled Muslims travelled

24     to this area by foot using two different bridges, one identified as

25     Vrbanja Most, near the Assembly building, and the other one just behind


Page 21807

 1     the hotel."

 2             Is it correct that Vrbanja Most was a bridge that was located in

 3     your area of responsibility, your zone of responsibility when you were a

 4     company commander, that that was one of the borders of your company's

 5     zone?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   I put it to you that your evidence is incredible that

 8     300 individuals would be expelled across the very bridge for which you

 9     would be responsible.  Do you have any comment?

10        A.   No.

11                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

12        Q.   Sir, I have a few questions now before the next break about

13     Veselin Vlahovic, also known as Batko, and Zoran Vitkovic, who you

14     discuss in paragraph 39 of your statement.

15             During your Karadzic testimony, this is at page 30878, you

16     stated:

17             "I spoke about Zoran Vitkovic and I said that since at the time I

18     was a soldier, I only know - and I included that in my statement - that

19     there was a group under the command of Zoran Vitkovic and they were

20     headquartered in the building --"

21             And then the transcript cuts off.

22             There's an interpreter's note, then, in the transcript indicating

23     the name of the building was not heard.

24             Could you please tell us the name of the building where this

25     group was headquartered?


Page 21808

 1        A.   Digitron Buje.

 2        Q.   Where is this building located in Grbavica?

 3        A.   I don't know how to explain.  I don't have a photograph to

 4     explain.  It is at the foot of some stairs which eventually lead you up

 5     to Vrace.

 6        Q.   Okay.  How big was the size of Batko's group that was

 7     headquartered in this building?

 8        A.   I don't know.

 9        Q.   Were these individuals volunteers?

10        A.   I don't know.  I briefly mentioned everything I knew about the

11     group in my statement.  That's all I know.

12        Q.   During your -- during your Karadzic testimony, it continues:

13             "They used to go to certain sections of the front line where the

14     Serbian fighters needed assistance because they were under enemy attack.

15     During one such attack by the Muslim forces, Zoran Vitkovic got killed."

16             Do you stand -- stand by this statement today, from your Karadzic

17     case?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   When you say that this group would go to certain sections of the

20     front line where Serbian fighters needed assistance, who are the Serbian

21     fighters you are referring to?

22        A.   They went to assist wherever Muslims attacked and wherever help

23     was needed.  That's all I know.

24        Q.   Is it correct that this is -- this was help on the front lines

25     where your forces were positioned?


Page 21809

 1        A.   They didn't come to assist me.  They didn't come to lend

 2     assistance in the area between one bridge and the other.

 3        Q.   Who are the --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I just interrupt.

 5             I just wanted to find out from you, Witness, when you say "they

 6     went to assist whenever Muslims attacked," who were the Muslims

 7     attacking?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serb positions.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] -- what positions, what

10     Serb positions?  Serb civilian positions or Serb -- what positions were

11     these?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do have you in mind this group

13     which came to assist?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] -- the group, that's

15     what you are telling us, the group that you are telling us came to

16     assist.  What Serb positions were being attacked?  What do you mean by

17     "Serb positions"?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Wherever it was necessary.  If a

19     Serbian line was in danger, they came to assist.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What Serbian line?  Just tell me what Serbs were

21     being attacked.  What is this Serbian line or this Serb position?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When a line was established, the

23     group would come to particular parts of that line if there was any need.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Who established the line?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both we and the Muslims established


Page 21810

 1     lines.  We were on one side, and they were on the other side.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you say "we," who do you mean?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serb army on one side and the

 4     Muslim army on the other.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you say "the Serb army," you mean the VRS?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you would have answered the first question

 9     by "VRS lines," then it would have avoided the whole of the confusion.

10             But if I understand you well, if VRS positions, that is, military

11     positions, the Serb -- the Republika Srpska Army positions were attacked

12     by the Muslims, then those volunteers would come to assist against such

13     an attack.

14             Is that well understood?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  What I said was that this

16     group, which existed at the beginning of the war, came to assist.  But

17     they did not stand guard like my soldiers.  They came to assist.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  So they came and assisted when an attack was

19     launched in defending the Serb positions, the VRS positions.  Is that

20     well understood?  I'm not asking about standing guard.  I'm coming to

21     assist when an attack took place.  To defend the VRS positions.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the group commanded by

23     Zoran Vitkovic went wherever necessary, to assist in order to defend VRS

24     positions.  In one such attack, Zoran Vitkovic was killed, and the group

25     disbanded.  His soldiers went their separate ways.  I don't know what


Page 21811

 1     then happened with those soldiers.  They were simply no longer to be

 2     seen.

 3             That is what I talked about.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course, I was talking also about the period

 5     in which the group existed.  I mean, you can't say much about the

 6     activity of a group if it doesn't exist any further.

 7             So I think the way in which I summarised it, you did not at least

 8     challenge or contradict that.  That is, they came, this group, when still

 9     in existence, came at times when VRS positions were under attack to

10     assist in defending those positions.

11             That is how I understood your testimony.  And unless you have a

12     clear comment on it, then I'm looking at both parties, whether this is

13     how one would reasonably understand this.

14             There's no need to look at the Defence, Mr. Witness.

15             Mr. Maletic, is that --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  It's five minutes past 12.00.  We'll take a break,

18     Mr. Mladic, so then you have an opportunity to consult with

19     Mr. Stojanovic.

20             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.  We'll take a

21     break of 20 minutes.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll resume at 25 minutes past 12.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.


Page 21812

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, you are on your feet.  It seems to be the

 2     day of the short delays in our start, but let's try next time to be all

 3     there in time.

 4             Mr. Weber.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Yes.  I just wanted to, in terms of court scheduling,

 6     inform the Chamber that I think I'll be approximately another 20 minutes,

 7     so ...

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, then, in view of the information I have,

 9     that is still within the time-limits.  There was quite a bit of

10     questioning by the Judges as well.  That's okay.  20 minutes.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, already an indication as to how much

13     time you'd then need?

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] At this moment, Your Honour, my

15     assessment that -- is that I will need ten minutes at the most.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That means that the next witness should remain

17     standby to start his testimony today.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

19             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P353,

20     page 173 of the English, and page 171 of the B/C/S.

21        Q.   Sir, we're going to be looking at another entry from

22     General Mladic's notebooks.  This one is from the 16th of June, 1992, and

23     it records a meeting with Colonel Dragomir Milosevic and the other

24     commanders of units in Sarajevo.

25             MR. WEBER:  And if, for the witness, we could please have the


Page 21813

 1     next page in the B/C/S.  I believe that's where the statement I will be

 2     reading is present.

 3        Q.   In this entry, Colonel Milosevic is recorded as stating:

 4             "Civilians, free people, and soldiers steal.  Zoran Vitkovic is

 5     the chief of those who steal ..."

 6             Is it correct that this is the same Zoran Vitkovic that you are

 7     referring to in your statement?

 8        A.   I think it is the same person.  I am not aware of the fact that

 9     there may have been two Zoran Vitkovics.

10        Q.   Sir, in this entry, Dragomir Milosevic, who is your brigade

11     commander, again, at that time, is aware of Zoran Vitkovic as being the

12     chief of those who steal and that soldiers are also stealing.  How is it

13     that you can explain to us that you were not aware of this?

14        A.   I explained the situation about my unit.  I also explained that I

15     basically didn't know Zoran Vitkovic and that he was not a member of my

16     unit, nor was I a member of his unit.

17        Q.   Sir, I just want to read you a passage from your Karadzic

18     testimony, and this is regarding the same exact entry that we're looking

19     at right now.

20             The question that was put to you is:

21             "And that's the same Zoran Vitkovic that you referred to in your

22     statement, isn't it, Mr. Maletic?"

23             Your answer:

24             "Yes, yes.  I spoke about Zoran Vitkovic and I said that since,

25     at the time I was a soldier, I only know - and I include that in my


Page 21814

 1     statement - that there was a group under the command of Zoran Vitkovic

 2     and they were headquartered in the building."

 3             Do you stand by this evidence?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Sir, I again put it to you that your evidence is not credible.

 6     Here we have General Mladic and the commanders of the brigades of the SRK

 7     being aware of this information, and I put it to you it is not credible,

 8     your evidence of a person who you discuss, that you were not aware of his

 9     proclivity for stealing.  Do you have any comment?

10        A.   I said everything I knew in my statement.  I stand by that.

11             MR. WEBER:  If we could please go into private session for the

12     next matter.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 21815

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11  Pages 21815-21818 redacted.  Private session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


Page 21819

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

20             MR. WEBER:

21        Q.   Mr. Maletic, were you informed by your superiors about anything

22     related to the use of prisoners for forced labour?

23        A.   I do not understand the question.

24        Q.   Well, in paragraph 18 of your statement, you indicate that your

25     superior command informed you about the actions that were against the


Page 21820

 1     rules of war.  Did they tell you anything about forced labour?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did they tell anything about whether using prisoners of war for

 4     dangerous work details is contrary to the rules of war?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Are you aware that placing prisoners in life-threatening

 7     conditions is prohibited?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Mr. Maletic, at this time, I'm going to ask you to watch a video

10     and then I will have a few questions for you.  If at any point in time

11     you need to re-see a portion of the video or watch it a second time, just

12     let us know and we'll replay parts of it for you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any text in it, Mr. Weber?

14             MR. WEBER:  There is.  We've disseminated the transcripts to the

15     booths.  I'm going to be asking Ms. Stewart to please play a portion of

16     Exhibit P81.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  What's the duration approximately?  Because we have

18     to play it twice if there's any spoken text.

19             MR. WEBER:  58 seconds.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

21             MR. WEBER:  And it's beginning at time code 1 minute, 49 seconds.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, we received everything in English, but I

24     do not know whether the English text was also received in B/C/S by those

25     who are listening to the B/C/S channel.


Page 21821

 1             Was B/C/S, was there any translation?  I see Mr. Mladic nodding

 2     no.  Therefore, it will be played again and then I expect B/C/S

 3     translation to be on the earphones of those who are listening to the

 4     B/C/S channel.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we were a bit confused by some of the Defence

 7     team members nodding that there had been translation but Mr. Mladic

 8     nodding that he had not received it.

 9             Let's play it again.  And if you could give us further

10     information about time-frame, et cetera, Mr. Weber.

11             MR. WEBER:  This came in through Mr. Van Lynden's evidence and I

12     can look up additional information for the --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  He is speaking himself, at least that's what I

14     heard but --

15             MR. WEBER:  Yes, that is correct.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- he doesn't say what year or what month or what --

17             MR. WEBER:  I'm going to be asking the witness further questions

18     about his awareness and knowledge after the clip is played.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Let's play it again.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             "At Kula that doesn't happen, but the men are forced to work in

22     fields close to Sarajevo's battlegrounds.  Some are being hit out in the

23     open, but more have suffered according to the prisoners when they're

24     taken to dig trenches in Sarajevo's front lines, in complete

25     contradiction of all war conventions."


Page 21822

 1             "They take us in teams of ten to dig trenches between front line

 2     buildings.  Usually three dig and three others throw out the earth.  It's

 3     dangerous.  One prisoner has been killed and two wounded.

 4             "The Serb warden promises the men will be released if an exchange

 5     can be arranged.  But none of them are likely to ever be able to return

 6     to their home village, now firmly in Serb hands.

 7             "Aernout van Lynden, Sky News, Sarajevo."

 8             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, if we could just confirm with the

 9     witness that he actually received some type of translation --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I listened to the B/C/S channel and there was

11     a clear translation on there and same for the French, so there's no --

12     you've heard it in your own language, I take it.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. WEBER:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Before going into what we just saw, is it correct that your

17     battalion used prisoners from the Kula KPD to perform labour on the front

18     lines?

19        A.   Rarely, but yes.

20        Q.   Okay.  Is it correct that you personally were involved with the

21     use of prisoners from the Kula KPD?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   We just heard some comments of prisoners who were from the Kula

24     KPD.  This is from an international broadcast.  Were you aware of these

25     allegations at any time during the war?


Page 21823

 1        A.   I don't remember.  I don't know.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution now please have --

 3        Q.   So you never saw any type of broadcast like the one that we just

 4     saw during your time as a company commander or as an assistant commander

 5     in your battalion?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Very well.

 8             MR. WEBER:  If we could please go to 65 ter 3068 -- sorry, 30686.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Before -- before we continue, how did you learn

10     about occasionally using prisoners to perform labour on the front lines?

11     How did you learn that, if it was not from Sky News, which I can

12     understand, but how did you learn about that?

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a document here in front of

15     me which I signed.  It's a report on the escape of two prisoners.  They

16     worked in the area of our battalion --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'd asked you how you learned about it.  Do

18     you say it was at this occasion that you learned about it?  Because I

19     didn't refer to any document in my question.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was aware of this document

21     because I signed it.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll wait first for the questions further to be put

23     by Mr. Weber and then see whether there are any remaining questions.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have -- I have a few questions.

25             You -- you were the commander of your battalion, weren't you?


Page 21824

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Who was the commander?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, it was

 4     Aleksandar Stojanovic.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you know who ordered these people to do this

 6     labour that you refer to where you were asked:

 7             "Before going into what we just saw, is it correct that your

 8     battalion used prisoners from the Kula KPD to perform labour on the front

 9     line?"

10             And you said:  "Rarely, but yes."

11             Who had given this order for them to do this job?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't an order.  It's probable

13     that our battalion commander requested from the Kula prison management

14     and probably asked for a specific number of prisoners who would work on

15     the line.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, how did you become aware of the fact that the

17     prisoners were made to work on the front line by your battalion?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was informed.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  By who?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose the battalion commander.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Weber.

22             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, and just since it was a query from the

23     Chamber, I would note paragraph 17 of Mr. Van Lynden's statement that

24     indicates that the video was from September 1992.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that.


Page 21825

 1             MR. WEBER:  It's Exhibit P66.

 2        Q.   Mr. Maletic, before you is a report you drafted on 21 May 1993

 3     regarding the escape of two Muslim prisoners.

 4             Directing your attention to the second paragraph, it mentions

 5     Zeljko Mitrovic from your battalion.  He was one of the individuals that

 6     you said attended your battalion meetings.  What specifically was his

 7     position and his responsibility?

 8        A.   He came to meetings occasionally, and he worked with civilians,

 9     with prisoners, and other civilians.

10        Q.   Was that his sole responsibility in your battalion?

11        A.   I think so, yes.

12        Q.   In the fourth paragraph, you write about how the prisoners were

13     shot at while they attempted to escape.

14             Who is it that authorised the use of deadly force against

15     prisoners in the event that they attempted to escape?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please quote exactly what you're referring

17     to, Mr. ... I now see.

18             MR. WEBER:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you -- you are referring to Mitrovic and the two

20     soldiers who were with him immediately fired after the prisoners but they

21     did not prevent the escape.  That was it.

22             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And I -- if that was not

23     clear, I -- I can use the exact quote.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No, we have now read that.  Could you please answer

25     the question:  Who authorised firing at civilian prisoners trying to


Page 21826

 1     escape under those circumstances?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No one approved.  It was believed

 3     that if someone was trying to escape from our front line to the enemy

 4     front line, then we should fire because they were not supposed to

 5     disclose where our position was.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, are you telling us that if you take civilian

 7     prisoners from a prison, you put them close to the confrontation line

 8     where they are at risk to be hit by fire from the opposite party, and

 9     that if they try to escape such a situation, that it's justifiable to

10     shoot at them because they might disclose your positions, where you had

11     brought them yourselves?

12             Is that your explanation?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't bring them there.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Your people brought them there, isn't it?  They

15     didn't say, Where shall we go today?  Let's go to the confrontation lines

16     and see whether we can build some bunkers.

17             They were brought there by your -- by your people, isn't it?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.  But if they

19     had not escaped, nobody would have fired at them.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And if they would not have been brought there,

21     they would not have been in the position to disclose your positions.

22     Isn't it?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, do you consider that under those circumstances

25     that the laws of warfare, first of all, allow them to bring them there;


Page 21827

 1     and, second, to shoot at them if they want to escape that situation?

 2             Is that your position?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that's not my position.  I just

 4     made a note about what happened and how.  I know that it is prohibited to

 5     use prisoners to work on the forward front line, and I did not order

 6     this.  I just made a note about what happened.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think you did a bit more, but ... okay.

 8     Let's leave it.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I follow up on that one.

10             You told us a few minutes ago:

11             "It was believed that if someone was trying to escape from our

12     front line to the enemy front line, then we should fire because they were

13     not supposed to disclose where our position was."

14             That was your belief.  Now, you can't say that was not your

15     position.  What's your position?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this situation, my position is

17     not important.  I just wrote a note in terms of what had happened.  Do

18     understand what I'm saying?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not asking about the note you wrote.  I'm

20     asking you about what you testified here a few minutes ago.  If you want

21     the reference, I can tell you.  It is page 59, at lines 17 to 20.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It was just read to you.  You expressed yourself on

23     you believed what was appropriate to do under those circumstances.

24             And the question -- my question and Judge Moloto's question was:

25     On what basis do you believe that this is appropriate to do?


Page 21828

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since they had already come on the

 2     basis of somebody's order to the front line, if they're working on the

 3     front line, so it would only be logical if they started to flee, they

 4     would disclose where our positions were.  And they were made aware of

 5     that, that if they tried to escape, they would be shot at.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's then clearly your position.

 7             Mr. Weber, please proceed.

 8             MR. WEBER:

 9        Q.   Did you ever arrest or detain or conduct any investigation

10     related to Zeljko Mitrovic and this event?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Is it correct that this report was sent to your superior

13     commands, in both the security organs and in the brigade?

14        A.   Probably.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we get the document back on our screens?  It

16     disappeared in the meantime.

17             I just asked for the document.  You should proceed.

18             MR. WEBER:  Oh.  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   We see that this document is addressed to the administration of

20     the Kula KPD.  My question was:  Is it correct that you also -- or did

21     you send this report also to your superior commands, in both the security

22     organs and in the brigade?

23        A.   Probably, yes.

24             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 30686 into evidence.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before we do that, I would like to put a question


Page 21829

 1     with respect to this document.

 2             If I remember correctly, you said it is not correct to bring

 3     prisoners to the front line for work there under very dangerous

 4     circumstances.

 5             Is that correctly understood?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to take you to -- back to this

 8     document and in the third paragraph, it is said:

 9             "According to Mitrovic, the place where the work was carried out

10     was under constant enemy infantry and rifle grenade fire, and observation

11     was difficult because it was dusk."

12             And then in the penultimate paragraph, there is this sentence:

13             "The work was carried out at night because that place was under

14     constant enemy fire, which made it impossible to carry out the work

15     during the day."

16             Have you any comment -- it is part of your report.  Any comment

17     on the -- this statement that it was very dangerous to bring the people

18     there for forced labour?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no comment to make in this

20     regard.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You have been assistant commander for

22     intelligence and security.  When you learned that these prisoners were

23     brought there, wasn't it your obligation to investigate this matter?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, there 's this one thing.

25     I mean, I was at that position in that location.  I'm a civilian.  Most


Page 21830

 1     of us were civilians.  We didn't have any active-duty personnel there.

 2     We were not very well versed in this work, so I did not carry out an

 3     investigation.  I compiled a report, and that was the end of that.

 4             If the superior command was supposed to do something, then they

 5     would have informed me.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you alert anybody who was -- or, yes, was in

 7     the position to carry out an investigation?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, could you please repeat

 9     that question.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you bring this fact to the attention of those

11     who are responsible for investigation of possible or alleged crimes?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My superior was aware of that, that

13     is to say, the commander of the battalion, and the commander of the

14     brigade.  Also my superior.  They were aware of this.  And I don't know

15     what happened beyond that.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You say you were a civilian.  Were you not a

18     soldier in a battalion?  Together with all the other people that you

19     were --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  I mean, I wasn't

21     military personnel before the war.  That's what I was trying to say.  I

22     was trying to say that before the war, I was a civilian.  So I was not

23     very well versed in many military matters.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks for the clarification.  Thanks for the

25     clarification.


Page 21831

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At the time of this event, you have been a

 2     lieutenant; correct?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you tendered it.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, number would be?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30686 receives number P6542,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

11             MR. WEBER:  I just have a couple of housekeeping items.  One, I

12     apologise, I just misspoke.  With respect to Exhibit P66, the reference

13     is in paragraph 63, not paragraph 17, on e-court page 17 to the

14     Kula video that was just shown.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. WEBER:  And then based on the review of the record, the

17     Prosecution no longer feels it is necessary to seek the admission of

18     P6539, marked for identification.  We withdraw the tendering of that

19     document.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And that was the --

21             MR. WEBER:  The statement of Mr. Hrvacevic.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's -- then hereby the number would be

23     vacated.

24             Any further questions, Mr. Weber?

25             MR. WEBER:  No, Your Honour.


Page 21832

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we take a break, Witness, I think you earlier

 2     commented on your handwritten notes and you said something like:

 3             "If we come to that item, I'll further explain to you."

 4             Do you remember that you told us that?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Has any of the questions touched upon the issue you

 7     were referring to?  I think it was about an order.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That first paragraph on the page?

 9     Is that it?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's it.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Didn't come across that.

12     Didn't get to that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us what it was now because I'm

14     interested.  I think you said something about "my order" even.  You used

15     that -- what order was that?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I got an order from the

17     superior command, and then I forwarded it to the companies.  I mean, I

18     don't know.  I cannot remember.  But if that would come up, if that

19     document would come up, I would remember, so I cannot remember the

20     details.  If we come across that document, then I'm going to tell you,

21     Judge.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, if it was important enough for the witness to

23     prepare for a response, if any of the parties would have any idea about

24     what that order may have been, we'd like to hear that.  So if there's any

25     order which would fit into this prepared comment.


Page 21833

 1             Then we take the break now.

 2             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

 3             We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, and we resume at quarter to 2.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 1.23 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 1.47 p.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We are waiting for the witness to be escorted into

 9     the courtroom.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

12                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, just a few questions.

14             While you were carrying out the duties of company commander, did

15     you have specific orders from the superior command that the mistreatment

16     of the civilian unarmed population is prohibited?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   While you were company commander, did you have specific orders

19     from your superior command that had to do with prisoners of war and

20     obligations to treat these prisoners of war in accordance with the

21     Geneva Conventions?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   As company commander, did you abide by these obligations of

24     yours?

25        A.   Yes.


Page 21834

 1        Q.   When you took over as assistant battalion commander for

 2     intelligence and security, did you also have orders from the superior

 3     command on the prohibition of any mistreatment of the civilian population

 4     and the duty to act in accordance with the Geneva Conventions vis-ā-vis

 5     prisoners of war?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

 8     have document P458 in e-court, and I would also like that ask that we

 9     take a look at the last page of this document.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the document --

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] P458.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps one question until the document appears.

13             Did those same orders, did they also apply to civilian prisoners;

14     that is, treatment of civilian prisoners?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Your Honour, I would just like to ask that in the English

19     version, we go one page back because the part that I wish to indicate

20     starts a bit before this, so that would be on page 5 in the English

21     version.  Thank you.

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, this has to do with instructions for further

23     activities of the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps dated the

24     7th of June, 1992, as you could see, in the letterhead.  And there is the

25     signature of Tomislav Sipcic, corps commander, and it says:


Page 21835

 1             "I most strictly prohibit the mistreatment of civilian unarmed

 2     population and prisoners should be treated in the spirit of the

 3     Geneva Conventions."

 4             Do you see that?  That is number 6, paragraph 6.

 5        A.   Yes, I see that.

 6        Q.   This order, as formulated, the one that you see before you, is

 7     that the order that you received from your superior command?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like to ask you just a few things with

10     regard to this fact, that prisoners who were at the Kula KP Dom were at

11     the front line at one point in time and were digging trenches there.

12             Tell us this:  Do you know anything about whether these persons

13     were civilians or prisoners of war?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   The mentioned persons, according to the information that you had,

16     did they flee in the direction of the position of the Army of BH or in

17     depth in terms of the territory that was controlled by the Army of

18     Republika Srpska?

19        A.   Towards the enemy positions.  Towards the positions of the

20     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21        Q.   The fact that people were brought there to work during the night,

22     as was stated here, and in response to the question put by His Honour

23     Judge Fluegge, you said the time chosen by the person who escorted them,

24     was this time chosen by that person or somebody else for the sake of

25     their own personal safety?


Page 21836

 1        A.   On orders from the battalion commander, this work was carried out

 2     at night in order to save their lives.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 4             MR. WEBER:  I have been letting it go, but on that one I'm going

 5     to object.  Leading.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it certainly is leading.  And apart from that,

 7     it is a composite question as well.  But very, very, very leading,

 8     Mr. Stojanovic.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I will

11     try to make it simpler.

12        Q.   So this is what my question is going to be.  In two steps, sir,

13     who was the person within the system of command and control who would be

14     in charge of determining when these prisoners are supposed to work on

15     fortifications?

16        A.   Who is supposed to set the time for them to work?  Is that what

17     you mean?

18        Q.   That's right.

19        A.   It can be the battalion commander, the commander of the company

20     in whose territory this work is being carried out, so they decided to

21     have this work carried out at night in order to protect these people,

22     because if this work would take place during the day they would be

23     exposed.  But they were a bit shielded, at least, because this work was

24     being carried out at night.

25        Q.   Did you have the opportunity to see whether on the other front


Page 21837

 1     line, on the other side, the side that was under the control of the

 2     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, whether civilians were being used for similar

 3     fortification work?

 4        A.   I did not have --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Objection.  Outside the scope of cross-examination.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think so, Your Honour.

 9     This is in the context of the document that I did not mind having

10     admitted into evidence in this case.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I disagree.  The -- you may put your next question

12     to the witness, Mr. Stojanovic.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Sir, I'm going to conclude with yet another question that has to

15     do with information about looting in the area of Grbavica.

16             Could you tell the Court how many units held this area that is

17     called Grbavica?

18        A.   There were a few units, that is to say, our 2nd Infantry

19     Battalion, then the 1st Battalion, then the armoured battalion, and so

20     on.

21        Q.   Would you tell the Court, in relation to the front line that you

22     held during the war years, how far behind that -- behind your back is

23     that, this area that is called Grbavica?  Tell us in terms of kilometres.

24        A.   Well, this is an area, it's a joint area of Grbavica and Vrace.

25     It was a couple of kilometres in depth.


Page 21838

 1        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I have no further questions for you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

 3             No further questions, Mr. Weber.

 4             MR. WEBER:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Moloto has one or more questions for you.

 6                           Questioned by the Court:

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just one little issue.  Let me just get the

 8     correct page.

 9             Now, in re-examination, at page 67, starting from line 7, you

10     were asked whether you did have specific orders from your superior

11     command that had to do with prisoners of war and obligations to treat

12     these prisoners of war in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.

13             You said yes.

14             You were asked again:  "As a company commander, did you abide by

15     these obligations of yours?"

16             You said yes.

17             My question to you is:  How did you comply with these

18     obligations?

19        A.   While I commanded the company, we did not rely on civilians to

20     carry out fortifications and dig out trenches.  That would be one

21     example.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You -- you have agreed that these obligations

23     applied both to civilians and to prisoners of war.  You have written a

24     report that we saw a few minutes ago to the KP Dom from where you said

25     the people were fetched from.  I do not think that the KP Dom is the


Page 21839

 1     place where they tried to comply with -- or that they're bound to comply

 2     with Geneva Conventions.

 3             My question to you is:  As you wrote that report, what did you do

 4     to comply with the obligations under the Geneva Conventions?  Because you

 5     were aware of this ill-treatment.  And let me just add:  To the KP Dom,

 6     you are reporting the escape.

 7             What about the ill-treatment of these students -- these

 8     prisoners?

 9        A.   I didn't ask for such prisoners to be provided.  I simply drafted

10     the report.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's not my question.

12             My question is:  How did you comply with the Geneva Conventions

13     with respect to the fact that these people that you were reporting to the

14     KP Dom about were being used for forced labour in a dangerous area?

15        A.   I didn't order that.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's not my question.

17        A.   The order was issued by the battalion commander, and it was so

18     implemented.  I merely reported on what had happened.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, I'm not asking you about an order.  I'm

20     asking you about action that you took to comply with the

21     Geneva Conventions.  What did you do?  How did you comply with the

22     Geneva Conventions with respect to these people that you reported to the

23     KP Dom as having escaped?

24             If you don't -- if you don't -- if you didn't do anything, just

25     say you didn't do anything.


Page 21840

 1        A.   I didn't do anything.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  I have no further questions.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I, before -- I would have, most likely, one

 4     more question.  But I need the report of which I'm unaware of the exact

 5     number.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  Could I have 6542 on the

 8     screen, please.

 9             Yes, it is on the screen.  If you give me one second.

10             I was a bit confused, but I don't find an answer in the document.

11     You earlier said that these were civilian prisoners, and later, when

12     asked whether these were civilians by Mr. Stojanovic, you said you didn't

13     know.  I'm a bit confused by that.

14             Could you explain that?

15        A.   Perhaps I didn't find the best way to express it.  I don't know.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  When not?  When you ... when you were telling that

17     you didn't know whether they were civilians, or when you said that they

18     were civilians?  I'm talking about the prisoners.

19        A.   When I said that they were civilians.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And you do not know.

21        A.   Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  People in the civilian prison, would you -- what

23     makes you think that they would be prisoners of war?  If they're not

24     civilian prisoners.

25        A.   I really don't know.


Page 21841

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Isn't it true that the responsibility for prisoners

 2     of war is with the army and not with civilian authorities?

 3        A.   Yes.  But maybe they happened to be in that prison.  I am not

 4     familiar with such details.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And do you then report to the prison authorities

 6     about their fate rather than to yourself, because if they are prisoners

 7     of war, you would have to report to someone else, isn't it?  To the

 8     military authorities.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10        A.   This report was -- was sent to the administration of the KP Dom

11     Kula as well as to my superiors.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We'll leave it to that.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I have no further questions.

15             Have the questions by the Bench triggered any need for further

16     questions.  If --

17             MR. WEBER:  No, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just for me to note that on the face of this

19     report, there's no sign that it was addressed to anybody within the

20     military hierarchy.  We see that it was sent to the administration of the

21     Kula KP.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you testified, if I remember well, that it

23     was probably sent to the -- your superiors, your military superiors as

24     well, although we do not -- have not seen any documents about that.

25     That's -- that reflects the situation.


Page 21842

 1             Can you confirm that?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I suppose I sent the same

 3     kind of Official Note to my superior command, which is the brigade

 4     command.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  This, then, concludes your testimony.  I'd

 6     like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague --

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  If there's -- one second, please.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to thank you very much for coming to

11     The Hague.  And I hope and expect, as a matter of fact, that you'll

12     receive the original of your handwritten notes from the Prosecution.

13             They can be delivered to the witness, I take it.

14             Could the usher assist.

15             It's your property, so you can take it.

16             Again, thank you for coming.  Thank you for having answered all

17     the questions that were put to you, and I wish you a safe return home

18     again.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

21                           [The witness withdrew]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber asked for the next witness to remain

23     stand by.  Now, I wonder whether it's a very good idea to bring him in

24     for five minutes, but ...

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]


Page 21843

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber decides that, although we have only five

 2     minutes left, that it would, nevertheless, be good to already have the

 3     witness in.

 4             Could the next witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, we might just briefly go through the

 7     formalities in the 92 ter statement.

 8             I noticed that with the last witness you didn't ask him to -- for

 9     his name and his date of birth.  Now you referred to the cover page of

10     the statement where it was all found, so I considered it to be included.

11     But usually the identity of the witness is explicitly established.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon.  Before you give evidence,

14     Witness --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you

17     make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you.  May I

18     invite you to make that solemn declaration.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

20     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21                           WITNESS:  MILORAD DZIDA

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much.  You -- please be seated.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We expected, as a matter of fact, that we would call


Page 21844

 1     you a bit earlier, so you'll stay with us only for a couple of minutes

 2     today and then we'll resume tomorrow morning.  And our apologies for you

 3     having to wait for such a long time.

 4             You'll now first be briefly examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  You'll

 5     find Mr. Stojanovic to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for

 6     Mr. Mladic.

 7             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

10        A.   Good afternoon.

11        Q.   Could you kindly tell us your first and last name for the record.

12        A.   Milorad Dzida.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell the Chamber whether you provided a

14     statement to General Mladic's Defence at some point in written form.

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we please look

17     at 1D01603 in e-court, page 1.

18        Q.   Mr. Dzida, we see here the statement of one Milorad Dzida born on

19     18 September 1954, and the document is signed.  Are these details correct

20     and is that your signature?

21        A.   Yes, the details are correct.

22        Q.   Can we see your signature on this page?

23        A.   Yes.  It is my personal signature.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Let us look at the last page of the document next.

25             Please tell the Chamber whether, on this page, at the end of your


Page 21845

 1     written statement, there is your signature and the date of the 10th of

 2     May, 2014.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Mr. Dzida, if I were to put the same questions to you today as

 5     specified in your statement, with the additions - that is to say,

 6     corrections you made, which we are about to show to the Chamber - would

 7     you, under oath, confirm it as such, as being truthful?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave, can

10     we look at 65 ter 1D02793.  I tried to follow the same way in order to

11     present some changes that the witness wanted to make before his

12     testifying here today, and I wanted to share it with you.

13        Q.   In paragraph 1 of your statement, Mr. Dzida, you felt the need to

14     tell me that there was something that needed to be added.  In other

15     words, the letter P was supposed to be added to the SRO acronym, and it

16     would stand for school of infantry reserve officers; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  If the witness signed this supplement statement and

19     if he has reviewed it, then, for the Chamber, there's no need to go

20     through all the changes unless there is a specific reason, and you have a

21     opportunity to do that then tomorrow.

22             Witness, did you sign this document?  I don't see the --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you complete the [overlapping

25     speakers] ...


Page 21846

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ... thank

 2     you for being practical, Your Honour.  I would also kindly ask that the

 3     statement by this witness, with the additions made to it, be entered into

 4     evidence.

 5                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 6             MR. WEBER:  No objections, Your Honour, with the understanding

 7     that the earlier question that if he would ask the same questions with

 8     the corrections, I understood that to apply to this too.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was a question which also related to the

10     changes made.

11             Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1603 receives number D489.

13             And document 1D2793 receives number D490, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  D489 and D490 are admitted into evidence.

15             Mr. Dzida, tomorrow there will certainly be more questions for

16     you.  We'll adjourn for the day --

17             I have one question.  Did you -- did you have conversations with

18     other witnesses which you met here after you arrived?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  But we did not discuss the

20     case or testimonies.  We discussed private matters.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I'd like to instruct you that you should

22     not speak with anyone, or communicate with anyone, about your testimony,

23     whether that is testimony already given, which is not much until now,

24     although the whole of your statement is now in evidence, so that's quite

25     a bit, and also not about testimony you are still about to give tomorrow.


Page 21847

 1     So you are restricted in your communications with others in that respect,

 2     and you should abide about that.

 3             Having given you this instruction, you may follow the usher, and

 4     we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same

 5     courtroom.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,

 9     Friday, the 30th of May, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

10                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.21 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 30th day of May,

12                           2014, at 9.30 a.m.

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