Page 22218
1 Thursday, 5 June 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 There are no preliminaries, therefore the witness can be escorted
11 into the courtroom.
12 I use the opportunity to deal with the following matter. On the
13 12th of May, the Chamber asked the Defence to file a submission on when
14 its expert reports will be filed. The Chamber notes that 24 of the
15 witnesses on the Defence's witness list are indicated as Rule 94 bis
16 witnesses. On the 3rd of June, the Defence provided the Chamber and the
17 Prosecution with an update through an informal communication. The
18 Defence explained that four of the expert reports will be completed and
19 filed by September 2014. These are two ballistic reports, one military
20 report, and one demographic report. The Defence further stated that it
21 is not in a position to predict the completion date for the report by
22 Dr. Dunjic.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Finally, the Defence indicated that it is waiting
25 for the Registry to appoint the history, radio communications, and
Page 22219
1 demolitions experts.
2 The Chamber would be like to be kept regularly updated on the
3 progress of the expert reports, and therefore the Defence is hereby
4 instructed to file short updates once a month, the first one on the
5 20th of June of this year.
6 Good morning, Mr. Cvoro. Again, apologies that we were still
7 busy with other matters when you entered the courtroom. Before we
8 continue, I'd like to remind you again --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Judge.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to remind you again that you are still
11 bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your
12 testimony.
13 Mr. Lukic will now continue his re-examination.
14 Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
16 WITNESS: ZDRAVKO CVORO [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Cvoro.
20 A. Good morning, Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need in e-court P6562.
22 Q. This morning I'll go through some of the documents that were
23 shown to you yesterday by the Prosecution, and please try to give us
24 answers as brief as possible so we can go through it today.
25 As we see, this is a document from the Executive Board of
Page 22220
1 Pale municipality.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The Prosecutor questioned you on this document.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 3 in English and page 2
5 in B/C/S.
6 Q. The Prosecution was the most interested in this amount of
7 100.000 dinars for the SDS. You started to explain yesterday that funds
8 were returned from the city but you were interrupted and you couldn't
9 finish the explanation. What did you mean to say?
10 A. Mr. Lukic, we were one of the municipalities in the city. All
11 the contributions, all the taxes, all the fees that were collected in the
12 city of Pale were distributed across the municipalities.
13 Q. Was that the same situation at this time or did something change?
14 A. Beginning with the month of January, there was some obstruction
15 on the part of the city in the distribution, in the allocation of funds,
16 so we couldn't properly implement our municipal budget.
17 Q. Which party had control of the city, which party was making
18 problems?
19 A. I believe at the level of the city the Party of Democratic Action
20 had majority power.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to see P6564 --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, I don't understand the question and
24 answer, Mr. Lukic. You said which party was making the most problems.
25 And then the answer is that the SDA had majority power.
Page 22221
1 MR. LUKIC: SDA --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did it cause problems because of its majority
3 power?
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. You've heard the question posed by His Honour Judge Moloto.
6 A. I believe the party that controls the government dictates certain
7 things, and in this case it concerned the budget. I don't know if it was
8 just the SDA or the coalition of parties at the level of the city.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do I then understand that it is the SDA party
10 which voted that an amount of 100.000 dinars should be given to the SDS?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this is something special.
12 This is the temporary financing of the municipal budget for the month of
13 May, and the reason was that we didn't have enough funds --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm going to stop you. Could you please try to
15 answer my question. You say the SDA coalition parties were controlling
16 the budget. This is a budget, whether temporary or not. I'm asking you:
17 Is it the decision of the SDA that this 100.000 dinars be given to the
18 SDS, yes or no?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then I don't understand your question. Thank you.
21 You may continue.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Is it the case that in the beginning of the year the flow of cash
24 and payments in the city of Sarajevo was disrupted?
25 A. I don't know about the city of Sarajevo, but I know there were
Page 22222
1 problems in the financing of the municipalities in Pale which were part
2 of the city.
3 JUDGE ORIE: But then still, there is a suggestion in this answer
4 that the -- those in power in the city of Sarajevo would have caused all
5 this. Could you tell us in detail what caused the problems in the
6 financing of the municipalities? Because then we know facts rather than
7 that we are hearing suggestions in answers.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did not participate
9 in politics, but I was part of the executive authority and I know that we
10 did not receive sufficient funds from the city budget.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Tell us then what exactly caused this to happen.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably obstruction by
13 politicians.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So if I understand you well, you do not know
15 what caused it to happen, you have some vague --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. All I know is we
17 didn't receive the funds.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, your answers went further. Your answers were
19 that they made -- the SDA made the problems because they were in power,
20 but I do understand that you have no detailed knowledge on what exactly
21 happened which caused you to receive less funds from the city.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Did the inadequate return of funds from the city
25 to the municipality of Pale constitute the reason why this temporary fund
Page 22223
1 was created?
2 A. Yes, precisely.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could I then ask you one more thing. Was the SDA or
4 were other parties not affected by the lack of adequate return of funds?
5 What was it that specifically the SDS was suffering under it?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the SDS was the only party
7 that was active at the time. The SDA had withdrawn. It did not operate
8 any longer. I don't know why. I don't know why they received any funds
9 themselves. My assumption is that they were not active at the time.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's still unclear to me, but I leave it to you,
11 Mr. Lukic, whether you want to further explore that, why and how activity
12 is established, activity of political organs which would then justify to
13 pay or not to pay them, also in terms of are they still elected members
14 of the Assembly, the municipal Assembly. I leave it to you whether you
15 want to spend time on that, but to say they were not active therefore no
16 money was given to them; SDS was active, and therefore they did receive
17 money -- it would even require the basis for establishing exactly why the
18 SDS got money, for what exactly, and whether they reported on the way in
19 which they spent that money to those who were providing that money and
20 that is - if I understand well - the local government. But I leave it in
21 your hands whether you want to explore it or not. Please proceed.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Did you allocate funds on request or did
24 somebody decide independently of requests, were the SDA and the SDS
25 supposed to apply for this money or not?
Page 22224
1 A. Monies were allocated strictly by law.
2 Q. Do you remember that the SDS did not request funds?
3 A. If they had requested them, they would have probably received
4 them.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could you inquire also what law exactly
6 applied on the funding of political parties. Perhaps the witness could
7 answer the question.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. You've heard the question of Judge Orie. Can you answer?
10 A. I still believe it was based on the statute of the city or the
11 statute of municipalities. The city planned annual budget according to
12 its statutes and within those funds financing was also envisaged for
13 political parties.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I stop you there. What I asked you
15 is whether you could tell me what statute or whatever the legal basis was
16 exactly so that we can have a look at it, because you now say, "I still
17 believe it was based ..." Well, I'd rather look at facts, documents,
18 rather than what you believe the case was. Can you tell us what statute
19 or what law it was that you applied in this context?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know the exact law,
21 but I know that there was Article 86 of the municipal statute as referred
22 to in this decision.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if Article 86 would be at one time be
24 available so that we could have a look at it, that would be appreciated.
25 Please proceed.
Page 22225
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. [Interpretation] We'll move on from finances.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need P6564 on our screens now.
4 Q. While we're waiting, I'll give you a short introduction. You've
5 told us that you requested fuel for the transport of refugees. This
6 document is dated 24 May 1992. You told us there were five to ten buses
7 filled with refugees going to Serbia every day. Were they Serb or Muslim
8 refugees?
9 A. Serb refugees.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P3038 is the next document we need.
11 Q. These are instructions on the organising and operation of the
12 organs of Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina in emergency conditions.
13 This document was issued by the Serbian Democratic Party. You told us
14 you were not a member of the SDS?
15 A. I was not a member of any political party.
16 Q. This document is dated 12 December 1991 -- 19 December 1991.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 3 in both versions.
18 Q. We see that after the bullet points in both versions in the
19 middle of the page, we read that the Crisis Staff would be headed by a
20 commander. Did you use this title? Were you the commander of the
21 Crisis Staff?
22 A. No, I wasn't. I was the president of the Executive Board.
23 Q. Do you know, did there exist Crisis Staffs of the SDS and
24 Crisis Staffs of municipalities?
25 A. I know about the Crisis Staffs of municipalities, not about
Page 22226
1 Crisis Staffs of parties.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P6565 is the next document I would
3 like to call up.
4 Q. If you remember when you see it on the screen, it's a document to
5 which the Defence objected because of certain shortcomings in the
6 document. So I'd like to ask you: Did you ever encounter in your work
7 documents of the State Security Service?
8 A. Never.
9 Q. In any case, you can see that this number does not have -- this
10 document does not have a registration number?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The first sentence reads:
13 "Please find attached information ..."
14 Can we see to whom this is addressed?
15 A. No, no.
16 Q. In fact, it says "to" below?
17 A. That's right.
18 Q. But at the end of the document --
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need the last page in both
20 versions.
21 Q. At the end we see there is no signature, no stamp, so we don't
22 see who created this document. But since you never worked with SDB
23 documents, I'll move to another type of document that is certainly more
24 familiar to you. We will begin with P6566.
25 Did you have any contact with Territorial Defence documents?
Page 22227
1 A. No. I only had contact with the municipal staff of the
2 Territorial Defence until the Army of Republika Srpska was established,
3 and that was on the 12th of May.
4 Q. Very well, but this is a document of the Territorial Defence --
5 in fact, their staff.
6 A. I don't know if it is the city staff or the municipal staff or
7 the zone staff.
8 Q. It should be the republic staff. In the documents you've seen,
9 many of them lack registration number, this one too?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. Did you see that the documents of the TO of Pale did not have a
12 registration number?
13 A. According to the Law on State Administration, the rule was that
14 all documents must be registered in the protocol.
15 Q. And you worked for the state administration for years
16 [as interpreted]?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. LUKIC: Just not to be leading, I asked: And you worked for
19 the state administration? And the witness answered: Yes, for years.
20 [Interpretation] Could we see page 5 in both versions. Page 3 in
21 B/C/S, one before this. [In English] Can we move one page before this in
22 B/C/S, please. One more. I don't know how it happened. This document
23 has three pages. That's it.
24 Q. [Interpretation] This is the end of the document. We see there's
25 no signature and no stamp?
Page 22228
1 A. I see the same thing.
2 Q. Is that normal for a document of the state administration?
3 A. No, it's not.
4 Q. Let's compare now the first and the fourth page in B/C/S, because
5 there are two versions.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We'll need page 1 of this document on
7 the left side of the screen and page 4 on the right-hand side of the
8 screen, both in B/C/S.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether it's possible to have this --
10 MR. LUKIC: I'm trying -- also inquire. Is it possible to have
11 it? Yeah. Thank you. Now we know that it's even possible.
12 Q. [Interpretation] This is the handwritten version of the document
13 on the left-hand side. On the left -- in the handwritten document, in
14 the handwritten document we see that it was sent to the chief of security
15 and then it was crossed out?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. On the left-hand side, in that version of the document, there's
18 no such thing?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. In the typewritten text, we read that it was the
21 Territorial Defence staff of the National Defence Ministry of the
22 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In the handwritten version, that text is missing?
25 A. As far as I can see - and I haven't finished reading - no, no,
Page 22229
1 there's no such thing.
2 Q. On the right-hand side we see "official note" at the top?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. On the left-hand side there is no such indication?
5 A. No.
6 Q. We've seen the beginning and the end of this document. Can we
7 see who created it without the signature, without the typewritten name,
8 without a stamp?
9 A. I don't know. We can't know that.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One clarification, you said, Mr. Lukic: "On the
12 right-hand side we see 'official note' at the top." I take it you mean
13 right-hand side of the screen but left-hand side of the handwritten
14 document?
15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is that correct?
17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you for your help.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We don't need this document.
20 Q. You were asked something about P2001. It hasn't even been shown
21 to you so there's no need for me to show it either. It was marked.
22 Mandic, 22153 is our transcript page. I'm going to read out the
23 question that was put to you. It's line 15. It had to do with Mandic
24 and Stanisic.
25 [In English] I quote --
Page 22230
1 A. I don't have that.
2 Q. [Interpretation] I'm going to read it out to you now and you're
3 going to receive interpretation.
4 A. All right.
5 Q. [In English] "Now, my first focused question for you, Mr. Mandic
6 and Mr. Stanisic were both officials in the Bosnian Serb Ministry of the
7 Interior; correct?"
8 And your answer was in line 18:
9 "Yes, that's correct. They were in the leadership."
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. [Interpretation] This is what I'm putting to you: That Mandic
12 was not a member of the MUP of Republika Srpska?
13 A. Well, possibly he wasn't. I know that he was part of the
14 leadership; maybe he wasn't within the MUP structures.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we need P --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now I would like to know what the witness knows
18 about Mandic, what was his duty? What was his position? What was his
19 rank? Where was he situated? At which time? Can you help us?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not sure. Now that
21 Mr. Lukic put this question to me -- I think he was in the Ministry of
22 Justice, not in the Ministry of the MUP.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What was his position and his duties?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure. I'm saying that once
25 again, but he may have been the minister, actually, because ministers
Page 22231
1 changed. I don't know who it was at the time.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
4 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, just for the clarity of the record, I
5 think it might be useful for Mr. Lukic to specify what time-period he's
6 talking about. Many officials held different jobs at different times
7 during the indictment period, Mr. Mandic included.
8 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, I wonder whether the parties could
9 not agree on who was in what ministry at what point in time. I mean,
10 these were not secret appointments; these were public functions. So,
11 Mr. Traldi, if you would like to know whether Mr. Mandic was in what
12 position at the moment that this happened, why not seek an agreement with
13 Mr. Lukic?
14 MR. TRALDI: We'll speak at the break, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's better than to ask a witness who says
16 he's not certain about it.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
19 [Interpretation] Now we need P3972, that's the document we'd like
20 to have displayed on our screens.
21 Q. We know -- actually, we discussed this document yesterday. It is
22 document -- it is a document of the Municipal Assembly of Pale. The
23 Prosecutor showed you page 4 of this document.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And I would kindly ask for page 4 in
25 both versions as well.
Page 22232
1 Q. The Judges asked yesterday also what had been done because you
2 explained that previously there had been attempts to move people out,
3 there was this lack of understanding, you explained to people that they
4 didn't have to leave. We see here in paragraph 2 ...
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you referring to --
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In English actually we'd have to go
7 down a bit.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you referring to item 2?
9 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, item 2, point 2.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
11 MR. LUKIC: Item 2 here, yes.
12 Q. [Interpretation] What is written here is that:
13 "The president of the Assembly and the president of the
14 Executive Board" -- so you're the latter; right?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. And it says:
17 "... objected to the activities of the public security station in
18 this respect because it had taken part in attempts to move the Muslims
19 out, which was done without a political decision which meant that the
20 official structures of power had been bypassed."
21 And then it says, I quote:
22 "This is why the attempt had been stopped."
23 So what was stopped, these attempts to --
24 A. Exercise or exert pressure.
25 Q. In the English version we have the right paragraph now. Now the
Page 22233
1 next paragraph, this is what I'm going to read out --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Lukic.
3 Could you tell us exactly then what you did to prevent that
4 because I think earlier you said you had no authority over others. What
5 did you then do?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, our commissioner was
7 Mrs. Biljana Plavsic for our municipality. We intervened through her,
8 and she, in accordance with her authority, intervened to have these
9 occurrences prevented, or rather, stopped.
10 JUDGE ORIE: It makes a difference whether it was prevented or
11 whether it was stopped, the difference being that if it is prevented that
12 the attempts never materialised. If you stop it, then it has happened
13 but then you discontinued that to happen. Now, what was it, was it
14 prevented or was it stopped?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stopped, as we've stated here.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, the translation says it was prevented,
17 but let's -- and then could you tell us exactly in what way, then, did
18 you seek the intervention of Madam Plavsic in writing or did you -- how
19 did this happen, this stopping this event?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, every day we had meetings
21 with Mrs. Biljana Plavsic -- well, I cannot say every day, almost every
22 day, and we informed her about the situation on the ground.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And what did she then do?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She gave us certain instructions as
25 to how we should act, the executive, that is, and also she provided
Page 22234
1 instructions how other organs should act, those that are not within the
2 executive.
3 JUDGE ORIE: What did she say how you would have to act?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, what was stated was that we
5 should do everything to stop that kind of thing.
6 JUDGE ORIE: What then is the -- what did you then do to stop it?
7 I mean -- yes, please.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we went out into the field,
9 we went to the actual places involved, and this is one aspect of our
10 activity and our work, as far as the executive is concerned. Again, I'm
11 speaking about the executive.
12 JUDGE ORIE: What was done by the others?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the police probably knows how
14 and in which way they acted.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The "probably" suggests that you do not know
16 precisely; is that well understood?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we were not satisfied with
18 their work and that is why we informed the Assembly of that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Did you then inform the Assembly after you had
20 sought the intervention of Madam Plavsic?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, after, I mean --
22 actually, first we informed Mrs. Plavsic and then we convened the
23 Assembly.
24 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please. Yes, now I'm re-reading your
25 answers. I asked you:
Page 22235
1 "Could you tell us exactly what you did to stop it or prevent
2 it?"
3 And you said:
4 "Well, our commissioner was Mrs. Biljana Plavsic for our
5 municipality. We intervened through her and she intervened to have these
6 occurrences prevented, or rather, stopped."
7 But I do understand that as far as you are concerned, what she
8 did is tell you to do whatever was needed to stop it?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that we had to stop that and
10 that we had to go out into the field and speak to the Muslims so that, I
11 mean -- well, that's what we did.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You spoke to the Muslims or you spoke to those who
13 were attempting to drive them out?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we talked to the Muslims. And
15 those who made these attempts, well, that was within the scope of work of
16 the police because it is for the police to establish the reasons --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, do you know exactly what then the police did in
18 this respect?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have any information.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So what happened is you went to Biljana Plavsic,
21 that she told you to do everything to stop it, that you then just talked
22 to the Muslims, and that you do not know what the police did in
23 addressing those who attempted to expel the Muslims; is that a summary of
24 what you told us?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
Page 22236
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Although you don't know exactly what the police
5 did specifically, concretely, the situation, or rather, the attempts to
6 have people move out by force, that was stopped all together; right?
7 A. Yes, that is what is written in this Assembly material under
8 number 2.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Is it also your recollection that it stopped
11 completely?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so, that is my
13 recollection. The police started this action to replace the commander
14 and the chief, and I know there were some problems probably in respect of
15 these questions but I'm not aware of any details and I cannot really talk
16 about this.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Was for this reason, was the commander and the chief
18 replaced because the police had expelled them? I'm just trying to
19 understand your answer.
20 Mr. Lukic, your microphone is still open so I do not know
21 what ...
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether he was
23 replaced then, but I know that there was this activity concerning the
24 replacement of the chief and the commander.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I asked you because you raised it in the
Page 22237
1 context of the question that was put to you about what exactly the police
2 had done.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. I don't have much time left so we'll have to -- well, actually,
6 I'm going to skip a few things --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the time the Chamber uses for asking
8 questions is carefully administered so it does not go from your time.
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm trying to finish in the
10 first session so we have enough time for the next witness, but thank you.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Next paragraph in this document, this is what it
12 says, I quote:
13 "In order to keep the discussion focused, the Assembly proposed
14 that a Working Group formulate a draft decision on the moving out of
15 Muslims and Croats, stressing in it that the departure of these people
16 from the territory of the municipality should be done on a voluntary
17 basis and in an organised manner."
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In this decision, was the principle of voluntariness and
20 departure in an organised manner emphasised?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we need P264.
23 Q. This is a brief document issued by the public security station of
24 Pale on the 2nd of July, 1992, and there is this section where it says
25 "decision." And it said that the request made by citizens of Muslim and
Page 22238
1 Croat ethnicity is being granted, that they can move out of the
2 municipality of Pale, unobstructed, as they wish.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Had it not been for these requests, would you have taken part in
5 moving out citizens from Pale?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you believe that you did not have the right to stop these
8 people from leaving?
9 A. Precisely. We wouldn't have the right to do that. I mean, had
10 they not submitted this request, that would have been different, but
11 since they had submitted this request, then it is their civic right to
12 decide where they want to live.
13 Q. In the next paragraph, in the last paragraph, we can see that
14 police and military patrols are to enable the unobstructed passage of
15 buses.
16 A. Yes, that can be seen.
17 Q. These buses, at the time were they supposed to pass through
18 check-points, were they already there?
19 A. Well, practically they were supposed to pass through the
20 separation line.
21 Q. That's my next question.
22 A. Within the territory there weren't any check-points.
23 Q. All right. So were they supposed to cross the front line?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In your view, would they have succeeded in crossing this front
Page 22239
1 line safely without this escort?
2 A. No.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we need document P3800.
4 Q. This document was shown to you yesterday as well. Again, this is
5 a report of the public security station of Pale dated the 6th of July,
6 1992, and this provides an idea as to who left the municipality of Pale.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Again, it says that it was done at the requests made by these
9 citizens and that this was enabled by the municipality of Pale.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was this a public process? Was it open to the public?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And as for the document itself, on the document itself we see
14 that it hasn't been marked as a state secret; right?
15 A. It hasn't.
16 Q. You said to us that these people who decided to move out left,
17 some took buses, others took passenger vehicles along with their personal
18 belongings?
19 A. Yes, I know that for sure, that some left on buses and others
20 took their own motor vehicles and all the personal belongings that they
21 could take along.
22 Q. At the time, the end of June, the beginning of July, 1992, could
23 Serbs leave Sarajevo with their cars and their movable property?
24 A. No.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
Page 22240
1 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd just like -- I'd just tentatively
2 object and ask that some foundation be laid for the witness's knowledge
3 in that respect.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: Mm-hm, that's my next question.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. Then please put that question to the
7 witness.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. At the time, were people coming to Pale from Sarajevo, or up
10 until then, had refugees already arrived from Sarajevo?
11 A. Many refugees came through a local road. That is to say, all
12 communications with Sarajevo had been cut off, and they took military
13 vehicles and other means of transportation as they managed. They could
14 not take their own motor vehicles. They did not come in an organised
15 fashion. They didn't come on buses either.
16 Q. Actually, you're telling us about people who managed to escape?
17 A. Yes, precisely. That is why we had a large number of refugees in
18 Pale.
19 Q. Just one more document and then we'll be done, at least I will be
20 done.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That is P6574.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I put one or two questions to the witness in
23 this context.
24 Why could the Serbs from Sarajevo not use their own vehicles to
25 reach Pale?
Page 22241
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, all roads that went from
2 Sarajevo to Pale were under control. On the one hand, I mean Muslim
3 forces; and on the other hand, Serb forces. These roads had been closed
4 down. Then what was being built was, well, across hills. I mean, roads
5 were being built with certain machines in order for people to be able to
6 get to Pale and that's how they got there. Buses could not take these
7 roads, not even vehicles could take those roads.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, how could the Muslims from Pale then move
9 to Sarajevo with their own cars?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was organised, a convoy.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have similar documentation about convoys,
12 because we see on our screen -- we saw on our screen how buses were
13 organised and escorted, et cetera. Apparently there were written
14 instructions for that. Do you have -- do there exist similar written
15 instructions --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- for convoys of vehicles -- vehicles owned by
18 Muslims who wanted to leave with their own cars? Do similar documents
19 exist, to your knowledge?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, unfortunately documents only
21 say that they took buses, but I know that they would also leave in
22 passenger motor vehicles too but I don't have any documents.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That means all those in buses, did they leave any
24 motor cars privately owned behind in Pale, or were these just people who
25 were not in the possession of personal motor cars?
Page 22242
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, mostly those who did not have
2 motor vehicles were on buses, whereas those who had motor vehicles joined
3 the buses and ...
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, my question was whether those on the buses left
5 behind any motor cars as far as you know?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
9 Q. [Interpretation] On the screen we see a document and you
10 protested when the Prosecutor asked you about this because it concerns
11 1995. But I'm just going to ask you to read out the introductory
12 paragraph. The question is whether Renovica was in Serb hands or in
13 Muslim hands. When you read the beginning of the document, do you come
14 to the conclusion that at that time Renovica was in Serb hands or in
15 Muslim hands at that time, the end of 1995 or just before that?
16 A. Well, according to what we learned from the captured Muslim
17 fighters, they will be pulled out along three different axes and so on;
18 is that what you mean?
19 Q. Yes. And now point 2 --
20 A. Point 2, well, it says, Dzimrije, Sokolovici, Stjenice, Renovica,
21 and so on, the left bank of the river Drina.
22 Q. Please go on to number 3 -- no, below number 3.
23 A. "All directions are mainly unpopulated and before the war they
24 were populated by Muslim inhabitants for the most part. The most
25 probable directions of their movement and disengagements are directions
Page 22243
1 one and three because they are closest to Gorazde ..."
2 Q. So can you draw a conclusion? If not --
3 A. Well, I think that Renovica was -- parts of it around the
4 barracks were under the control of the Serb forces for a while, but when
5 the barracks withdrew, Renovica and parts of Praca were captured by the
6 Muslim forces.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cvoro. This is all I had for you. Thank you once
8 again.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Before I ask you if you have any questions,
10 Judge Moloto would have one question -- one or more.
11 Questioned by the Court:
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question I'm going to ask you, you might have
13 been asked by Judge Orie but I'm not quite sure I understood the answer.
14 You've told us that Muslims left in buses and private cars from Pale to
15 Sarajevo; am I correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You also told us, and I quote page 23, lines 7 to
18 10, you say:
19 "Many refugees came through a local road." And these are Serb
20 refugees from Sarajevo. "That is to say, all communications with
21 Sarajevo had been cut off, and they took military vehicles and other
22 means of transportation as they managed. They could not take their own
23 motor vehicles, they did not come in an organised fashion. They didn't
24 come on buses either."
25 My question is: If communications had been cut and refugees from
Page 22244
1 Sarajevo could not come in their cars, had to use military trucks, what
2 roads were used by the Muslims who went to Sarajevo and why is it they
3 were able to go in private cars and buses?
4 A. Well, the order from the commander or the chief of the public
5 security station discusses that precisely, what roads and what
6 communications and in what way they left for Sarajevo.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me, let me stop you. I understand -- the
8 order might discuss that. I'm asking you what roads were used by the
9 Muslim refugees to go to Sarajevo which could not be used by the Serb
10 refugees from Sarajevo to Pale, irrespective of what is discussed in the
11 order. I'm asking you for the roads.
12 A. I see. Well, that's the road going from Pale to -- via Hresa,
13 Vasin Han, and of course then through the Muslim parts, Travnik and so on
14 and so forth. That is the normal road.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And why could Serbs not use the same road?
16 A. Well, because they weren't allowed to.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Allowed by who?
18 A. Well, probably by the Muslim forces.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no, I'm asking for facts, not probabilities.
20 A. Well, because the roads were closed. There was no passing
21 through them. The roads were mined, there were barricades, there were
22 separation lines.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: But if the roads were mined, how did the Muslims
24 go through them?
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
Page 22245
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably they removed
2 certain -- well, I'm talking about our side and our road. In agreement
3 with the Muslim forces that road was cleared, it was freed up.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Any further questions, Mr. Traldi?
6 MR. TRALDI: No, Your Honour. I had one area, but Mr. Lukic and
7 I agreed that one document would be admitted. I can inform the Chamber
8 the number and it will spare us from any further questioning of this
9 witness.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 And then, Mr. Cvoro, this concludes your testimony in this court.
12 I would like to thank you very much for having answered the many, many
13 questions, not only by the parties but also by the Bench, and I wish you
14 a safe return home again. You may follow the usher.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 MR. TRALDI: And --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
19 MR. TRALDI: The document which would be admitted, Mr. President,
20 is 65 ter 30715. It must be admitted under seal due to protective
21 measures in a different case.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We may have a look at it. It cannot be --
23 well, if it is shown on our screens, then it's not to be published --
24 MR. TRALDI: That's correct.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- but before we decide on admission, we usually
Page 22246
1 would like to know what we are admitting.
2 MR. TRALDI: I'm happy to have it shown as long as it's not
3 broadcast.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. TRALDI: I can provide more detail on the relevance, in my
6 view, Your Honours, but I'd request to do it in private session if that
7 would assist the Bench.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps it's better to do it now than --
9 Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: I think this is something you asked for yesterday, so
11 I think that Mr. Traldi --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, that's --
13 MR. TRALDI: [Overlapping speakers] --
14 MR. LUKIC: And we don't object.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. You don't object, we asked for it, then it's
16 clear.
17 Then there was one translation issue left over of yesterday. It
18 had got something to do with the forceful or -- you remember that.
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I do.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any further report on that?
21 MR. TRALDI: I can inform the Chamber that we've contacted CLSS.
22 A new translation has been uploaded under the doc ID Y015-0027-1-ET. We
23 received it this morning and at whatever leisure the Defence is able to
24 review it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, no objection against --
Page 22247
1 MR. LUKIC: Not yet, unfortunately, no.
2 MR. TRALDI: We just received it during the session.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The one line -- the one line is -- are you able to
4 read that one line which caused the whole thing so that the Chamber ...
5 MR. TRALDI: The translation I have -- well, perhaps we could
6 call it up by doc ID. Has it been released?
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 MR. TRALDI: And for the record, this is P6572 that's at issue.
9 That's the document that should not be broadcast.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Perhaps we first take the break and then --
11 but there's one thing, Madam Registrar, 65 ter number 30715 has not been
12 assigned a number yet.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30715 receives number P6575, under seal,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence under seal.
16 Then we take a break and we will resume at 11.00. And during the
17 break, the necessary measures will be taken -- the protective measures
18 will be installed.
19 We resume at 11.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: For the next witness to be escorted into the
23 courtroom, we need to go into closed session for a short while.
24 [Closed session]
25 (redacted)
Page 22248
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 Witness GRM311, because that's how we will call you, before you
24 give evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. May
25 I invite you to make that solemn declaration, the text of which is now
Page 22249
1 handed out to you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: GRM311
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Witness. Please be seated.
7 Witness, you will testify and we'll not use your own name, you'll
8 testify under pseudonym, your pseudonym being Witness GRM311. No one
9 will see your face outside this courtroom. No one will hear your own
10 voice.
11 Please keep in mind that if any question touches upon a matter
12 which might reveal your identity, that you then ask for private session,
13 and the parties are also -- are also reminded that they should take care
14 to ask for private session whenever that would be needed in order to make
15 the protective measures effective.
16 Witness, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic -- no, by
17 Mr. Ivetic, although Mr. Lukic --
18 MR. LUKIC: I have a few words before that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. LUKIC: If I may.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
22 MR. LUKIC: Before the break, Mr. Traldi offered one document,
23 actually corrected translation, under number ID Y015-0027-1-ET. We
24 checked the translation during the break and we do not object to this
25 translation.
Page 22250
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. LUKIC: That's all I have --
3 MR. TRALDI: We'd request to replace it -- request leave to
4 replace it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 Madam Registrar, leave is granted to replace the original English
7 translation by the newly uploaded one. And that was in relation to --
8 MR. TRALDI: P6572, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: P6572. Thank you.
10 MR. LUKIC: And I would just --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
12 MR. LUKIC: -- ask for myself and Mr. Traldi to be excused, both
13 of us.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, that's very kind of you, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, sir.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and, Witness, you'll first be examined by
17 Mr. Ivetic. You'll find him to your left. Mr. Ivetic is a member of the
18 Defence team of Mr. Mladic.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
22 Q. Good day, sir.
23 A. Good day.
24 MR. IVETIC: I would like to call up 65 ter number 1D02794, but
25 please do not broadcast the same.
Page 22251
1 Q. Sir, I would draw your attention to this document, which is a
2 pseudonym sheet, and I would ask that you confirm if your name and
3 birth-date are set forth correctly on this document?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would move to admit 1D02794 into
6 evidence under seal.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2794 receives number D508,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence under seal.
11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
12 The next document I would like to call up also should not be
13 broadcast, it is 1D01619 in e-court. And I have a hard copy, with the
14 assistance of the usher, for the witness after the Prosecution checks to
15 see that it's a clean copy.
16 Q. Sir, on the screen we have a witness statement. Can you please
17 confirm for us if that is your signature that appears on the bottom of
18 the first page in the original?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Have you had the opportunity to review the statement in the
21 Serbian language during proofing subsequent to having signed the same?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. IVETIC: If we can turn to page 4 in the English, page 4 in
24 the Serbian, again not broadcasting the same, and focus on paragraph 13.
25 Q. Sir, here in paragraph 13 where it says:
Page 22252
1 "The mortars were in front of the Army Hospital in Sarajevo."
2 Do you wish to correct that entry?
3 A. The launchers were within the perimeter of the military hospital,
4 not outside it.
5 Q. Apart from this one change, do you stand by your statement and
6 affirm that everything therein is accurate to the best of your knowledge?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And if I were to ask you the same questions today about the
9 topics covered in the statement, would your answers be the same in
10 substance?
11 A. I would answer the same.
12 Q. And now that you have taken the solemn declaration, would those
13 answers as contained in this statement be truthful?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, at this time I would move for the
16 witness statement to be admitted into evidence under seal.
17 MS. MacGREGOR: Good morning, Your Honours. The Prosecution does
18 not object to the admission of this witness's statement; however, we
19 maintain the position that we put in the response to the Defence
20 92 ter motion for this witness, that the majority of the evidence is
21 tu quoque.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, no objections.
23 Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1619 receives number D509,
25 Your Honours.
Page 22253
1 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence under seal.
2 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 At this time I would read the public summary of the statement,
4 the purpose of which has been explained to the witness.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
6 MR. IVETIC: The witness is an ethnic Serb who spent the war in
7 Sarajevo on the territory controlled by the ABiH. The witness was
8 ordered to produce hand-grenades for the ABiH at a civilian factory. The
9 witness worked 12 hours straight at this job daily. The witness knows
10 that Bosnian Muslim youths were going around with a list of persons to
11 throw grenades at and that the Bosnian Muslims killed their own to
12 increase the number of casualties.
13 At home the witness's utilities were cut off and a neighbour told
14 him it was because he was a Serb. Due to that, the witness had to
15 collect firewood to take home with him. On three occasions while
16 collecting wood, the witness found dead bodies with black bags over their
17 heads.
18 On 5 January 1993, while going home from work, the witness was
19 taken by two men wearing balaclavas who put a bag over his head and drove
20 him in a van towards Pofalici. There they showed him a massacre of more
21 than ten bodies cut up and piled in a pit, with a decapitated child on
22 the top of the pile, its severed arms in the shape of a cross. Next to
23 the child's body was a woman, on whose chest the head of the child had
24 been placed. These men beat the witness and cursed his Serbian mother,
25 saying that if he did not continue making grenades for the Muslims, he
Page 22254
1 would end up the same as the people who had been killed in the pit.
2 The witness says the BH authorities shut down the city and kept
3 it that way. He had to pay money to various Bosnian Muslim and Croat
4 officials in order to get members of his family out of Sarajevo. The
5 witness recalls that the Bosnian Muslim side positioned weapons at public
6 institutions, like schools, health centres, and hospitals. The witness
7 saw the ABiH firing mortars from the army hospital and a machine-gun nest
8 near the health centre by Kumrovec.
9 The witness was forced out of Sarajevo in 1996. A Bosnian Muslim
10 was given his apartment to keep that man quiet because he knew that his
11 wife had been killed by the ABiH side and not the Serb side.
12 And that ends the summary of the statement for this witness. I
13 would ask to go briefly into private session for some follow-up
14 questions.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
16 [Private session]
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
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Page 22255
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11 Pages 22255-22256 redacted. Private session.
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Page 22257
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21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
Page 22258
1 MR. IVETIC: If we could please turn to page 3 in both languages
2 of D509 under seal and focus on paragraph 7 of the same.
3 Q. Sir, in this paragraph you describe an incident in January of
4 1993 when you were taken away and beaten, and you mentioned 11 prior
5 occasions. Can you please explain for us what you meant by reference to
6 11 prior occasions?
7 A. On my way to work, on the way back from work, usually on the way
8 back, people I didn't know stopped me on 11 different occasions. They
9 took me to show me the crimes that they had committed in order, I
10 suppose, to kill me mentally. Every time I was beaten and every time I
11 was threatened and told that I shouldn't meet anyone, and they would ask
12 me, as I've already said in my earlier answer, who I had met and what I
13 was doing there and what I was looking for, which was all made up.
14 Q. Did those individuals also make reference to your work?
15 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, I object. That's leading.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Ivetic, could you phrase the question in
17 such a way that you do not find objections.
18 MR. IVETIC:
19 Q. Did the individuals who took you away appear to know who you
20 were? Did they make any reference to your identity?
21 A. Yes, they knew exactly who I was, where I was working, and what I
22 was doing.
23 Q. Now, you mention in your statement that you needed to make
24 grenades. What was the requirement of you and the other two coworkers
25 for the daily output for each of you for these grenades?
Page 22259
1 A. In a 12-hour shift I needed to make 120 grenades. And if we
2 stayed until 10.00 p.m., then we needed to make 150 grenades each.
3 Q. And in paragraph 7 of your written statement you identify that on
4 this occasion when these men took you out, they told you that you needed
5 to keep -- continue making bombs for the Muslims. Is that all that they
6 referenced in relation to your work or did these men who took you away
7 make any additional comments about your work?
8 A. While they were taking me away they kept asking the same
9 questions: With whom I was collaborating, to whom I was reporting, and
10 to whom I had reported that one of the Muslims needed to be killed, and
11 they called me an accomplice in all these things, which wasn't true.
12 Q. I would now like to take a look at page 4 in English and page 5
13 in Serbian at paragraph 16 of your statement, which goes on to the next
14 page in the English. Sir, in this paragraph you state that you found at
15 the Marin Dvor school Muslims killed their own people. Could you please
16 explain what you meant by that comment?
17 A. Towards the end of 1992, as I was leaving the workshop where I
18 was working, I ran into three boys who carried in their school bags
19 hand-grenades made by me. They were standing by a man who was also
20 working in the factory who knew them, and he pointed to me and said:
21 Here is the man who knows all about these things. So they were
22 introduced to me. The boys were 15 or 16 years of age, and they said
23 that in the secondary mechanical engineering school at Marin Dvor they
24 had undergone training in what I would call sabotage. They had shells in
25 their school bags, each could hold 12 grenades so that they wouldn't move
Page 22260
1 around. (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 JUDGE ORIE: We briefly move into private session.
10 [Private session]
11 (redacted)
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Page 22261
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14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
18 If I can please ask to have called up Exhibit P0003, page 20 in
19 e-court. And again, if we can have the assistance of the usher to assist
20 the witness.
21 Q. Sir, I would like to have you mark with an X any buildings that
22 are visible in this photograph where ABiH soldiers were situated.
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 Q. Are there any other buildings where there were ABiH soldiers
Page 22264
1 situated that are visible in this photograph?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor --
3 MS. MacGREGOR: I'm sorry --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 MS. MacGREGOR: I'm sorry to interrupt, Your Honours. I'm
6 concerned that the references that the witness is making with the exhibit
7 are potentially identifying and that we possibly should be in private
8 session.
9 MR. IVETIC: We can go into private session.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
11 [Private session]
12 (redacted)
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Page 22265
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20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 MR. IVETIC:
24 Q. Sir, did you have occasion to know of any situation where the
25 ABiH used heavy weapons to fire upon their own territory; and if so,
Page 22271
1 could you tell us the circumstances of that?
2 A. Yes, on the way to the factory, not far away from TV Sarajevo,
3 where the Miljacka River flows, and then the TV building is separated
4 from the parking-lot for trams. They call that Remiza. Every day two
5 weapons were firing from there. Mostly these shells would detonate in
6 Svrakino Selo and Hrasno Brdo. The following day after that, all the
7 Sarajevo media reported that criminals from the hills destroyed
8 Svrakino Selo and they mentioned the number of casualties, victims, and
9 also from Hrasno Brdo.
10 Q. For the record, could you identify for us when the Sarajevo media
11 talked about criminals from the hills, who were they understood by you to
12 be referencing?
13 A. They were talking about the Serb forces that were defending their
14 territory.
15 Q. Thank you. And the territory that you identified, Svrakino Selo
16 and Hrasno Brdo, under whose -- whose territory were those positions
17 located within?
18 A. Those territories were under the control of the Army of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina.
20 Q. Thank you, sir.
21 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have no further questions in direct
22 for this witness and I thank you for the additional extension of the
23 time.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 I'd like to inform the parties that there was a specific request
Page 22272
1 which will be relayed to you from the Victims and Witness Section. Could
2 you please consider that. It's about timing, it's nothing very special.
3 First the witness should be escorted out of the courtroom, and
4 for that reason we will turn into closed session. We will remain in
5 closed session when we take a break. And when resuming at 25 minutes
6 past 12.00, we'll start in closed session and immediately after that turn
7 into open session again.
8 [Closed session]
9 (redacted)
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Page 22273
1 (redacted)
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
5 Ms. MacGregor, if you are ready to cross-examine the witness.
6 Witness GRM311, you'll now be cross-examined by Ms. MacGregor.
7 Ms. MacGregor, you'll find her to your right and she's counsel for the
8 Prosecution.
9 Please proceed.
10 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Cross-examination by Ms. MacGregor:
12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness. I'm going --
13 A. Good afternoon.
14 Q. I'm going to try to finish my exam today so that you can go home
15 as soon as possible, and I will do that by asking specific questions.
16 You can help me do that by listening closely to what I ask and only
17 answering those questions that I ask.
18 My first question is: Is it correct that you were a witness for
19 the Defence before this Tribunal in the trial of Dragomir Milosevic?
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. MacGregor, you should switch off your
21 microphone when the witness is answering.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 MS. MacGREGOR:
24 Q. That was in July 2007?
25 A. That's right.
Page 22274
1 MS. MacGREGOR: If we can please go into private session,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
4 [Private session]
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Page 22275
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Page 22281
1 (redacted)
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4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
7 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Starting in May 1992 and up until June of 1994, you worked nearly
9 every day at the factory?
10 A. Not nearly every day, every day.
11 Q. And during that period you would be gone from your flat from
12 approximately 5.00 a.m. until 8.00 or 9.00 p.m.; is that correct?
13 A. After my injury, it was from 10.00 in the evening until 4.00 in
14 the morning, in the apartment.
15 Q. I may have misunderstood. I'm talking about in the period from
16 May 1992 to June 1994 when you were working, what hours were you in your
17 apartment?
18 A. At that time I was in the apartment from 8.00 in the evening
19 until 5.00 in the morning.
20 Q. Thank you. You've discussed two other employees at the factory
21 besides yourself. Were there other employees manufacturing other items
22 in the factory at that same time?
23 A. The man who prepared bodies of the shells for processing on the
24 machine, he was there but none of the other manufacturers. Maybe I
25 should explain this to you a bit -- I do apologise. As for working on a
Page 22282
1 machine, it was necessary to cut pipes and prepare the top and the
2 bottom, to weld that together, and then come to the machine to process it
3 further. This man who was involved in the manufacturing, in addition to
4 the three of us, he was a welder and that is what he had done before
5 coming to work with us.
6 Q. Thank you very much. The pipes you describe, is it like the pole
7 that a street sign would sit on?
8 A. I don't know where they came from. It was phi 50, that is to
9 say, the external diameter was 50 and 75 metres was the length.
10 Q. And your job was to cut these long pipes into small sections of
11 pipe?
12 A. Somebody else cut those pipes, probably the person who welded the
13 top and the bottom. You see, I would just process the part that was
14 given to me on the basis of a drawing and I dealt with that on the
15 machine. Somebody else had prepared it for this processing beforehand.
16 If you allow me, I could explain this to you so that you could
17 understand.
18 Q. Mr. Witness, unfortunately we don't --
19 A. For example, I cut this thing here and --
20 Q. I think we have enough on the record to understand, and I'm
21 trying to help you get home, but I do understand it's interesting.
22 A. Thank you.
23 Q. It's correct that the cylinders after they were complete, they
24 were not filled with a fuse or a charge at your factory; that happened
25 elsewhere?
Page 22283
1 A. Yes, that happened at the mechanical technical school at
2 Marin Dvor. That was about 300 metres away from the factory as the crow
3 flies.
4 Q. Would you describe the job you did as physically demanding?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Between 1992, at least until June 1994, you received a salary
7 from the factory; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, I received some compensation, something.
9 Q. And the factory also provided you with your residential flat; is
10 that correct?
11 A. Yes. I got that flat about ten years before the war -- no, no,
12 I'm sorry. It was three years before the war.
13 Q. Now, as the only Bosnian Serb working with only Muslims, did you
14 have any problems at work with your colleagues?
15 A. No, I did not at work, no.
16 Q. You were not threatened while at work; is that correct?
17 A. No.
18 Q. And you never threatened to quit your job; is that correct?
19 A. No, never.
20 Q. I want to talk now about the experience you had that you describe
21 in your statement at the pit in paragraphs 5 and 7.
22 MS. MacGREGOR: And, Your Honours, that's Exhibit D509, I
23 believe, that's the witness statement.
24 Q. Now, according to your statement -- first of all, are you
25 familiar with which event I'm talking about involving the pit where you
Page 22284
1 saw the bodies?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. According to your statement, this happened in January of 1993; is
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes. More specifically, on the 5th of January, 1993.
6 MS. MacGREGOR: Can we please have 65 ter 30763, page 20.
7 Q. As we wait for this to come up on the screen, Mr. Witness, it's
8 again testimony that you made during your Milosevic case. So again, I'll
9 have to read it to you, as it's not in B/C/S.
10 MS. MacGREGOR: If you can focus, please, on the bottom half of
11 the statement.
12 Q. Okay. I'm reading from line number 15. This is your testimony:
13 "I was taken away during my work there on 11 occasions. The most
14 drastic example occurred in early November of 1992 ..."
15 And you continue to describe the episode at the pit. Is this the
16 same episode that you've now today said occurred in January of 1993?
17 A. [No interpretation]
18 JUDGE ORIE: We do not receive interpretation at this moment.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for this date that was mentioned
20 here, it was -- it's not correct. Somebody must have made a mistake.
21 The correct date is 5 January 1993.
22 MS. MacGREGOR: If I can please have e-court page 51 of the same
23 document, again towards the bottom of the page.
24 Q. Mr. Witness, later in the same testimony, the Prosecutor again
25 asked you about the date when you saw various atrocities. I'm going to
Page 22285
1 read to you your response to that question. This is at line 18 of the
2 screen in front of us.
3 "... I recall that on that earlier incident when they took me to
4 see that pit, that was on the 27th of October, 1992. I wanted to write
5 about that, but then they searched my flat and they found some pieces of
6 paper where they said I had noted down some of the dates, and after this
7 happened I no longer wrote about this."
8 Mr. Witness, did you write some notes, including the date, about
9 the incident you saw at the pit?
10 A. Are you referring to these dates, 5 January 1992, or rather, and
11 1992? Is that the date you're referring to or those dates?
12 Q. My question is: Did you write down notes about the incident you
13 saw at the pit? That's my first question.
14 A. I noted some dates even before this, before 5 January. On the
15 5th of January I remember well when I was thrown out, when they threw me
16 out of the car into a ditch and it was dark. It was a concrete ditch and
17 I know that one of these men said: Oh, he's going to have a good
18 Christmas. And there is no doubt about it that there was a mistake made
19 there, that this wasn't 5 January 1993.
20 MS. MacGREGOR: If I can please turn to page 53 of the document
21 that we have up. This is again from the same testimony on this page.
22 Q. At line 12, the Prosecutor asks:
23 "And the incident with the pit was in October 1992; is that
24 right?"
25 And your answer is:
Page 22286
1 "1992."
2 A. No, no, that's not how it was. And I affirmed this precisely
3 because of what I've just said, how this man mentioned that on the
4 following day or two days later, it was Christmas and that I would celebrate
5 it well following this. So somebody else made that mistake, not me.
6 Q. Mr. Witness, when you testified in the Milosevic case you did not
7 say that the pit incident happened on Serb Christmas Eve, did you?
8 A. No, I did not say that. I did not because I was sure that I said
9 it was on the 5th of January and that it would be without this
10 compensation that this man mentioned, that that's how it would be.
11 Q. I'm going to move on to a slightly different topic. The
12 Prosecution received from the Defence a report of information that you've
13 given in the past few days since you've been in The Hague. In that
14 report the information provided says that you stated that every time you
15 were abducted, you were taken into a van which was a red van. Do you
16 remember telling the Defence that in the past couple days?
17 A. Yeah, but no, it wasn't a red van, it was black. The van was
18 black, not red.
19 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, I have not asked Ms. Stewart to
20 upload the information report into e-court because I don't intend to ask
21 that it be put into evidence, but if possible, I'll raise that at a later
22 time.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now first of all, does it contain reference to
24 a red van? Is that --
25 MR. IVETIC: It does, Your Honour, the B/C/S words are close for
Page 22287
1 both. I may have -- I prepared the information report --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'm just -- I'm just trying to seek whether
3 the parties agree on that --
4 MR. IVETIC: I agree it does say "red" in the information report
5 drafted by me.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- those words are written in there.
7 Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.
8 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Now, you've testified that as a result of this incident at the
10 pit, your arm and your leg were broken and you could barely stand or
11 walk; is that correct?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. And after your arm and your leg were broken, you remained
14 employed at the factory until June -- employed and working daily at the
15 factory until June 1994; is that correct?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. You worked the same hours that you worked before the incident at
18 the pit; is that correct?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. During that period, you continued to walk to and from work daily
21 along the same route; is that correct?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. And you had the same tasks at the factory that we've just
24 discussed; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
Page 22288
1 Q. Now, in June 1994, approximately 18 months later, you approached
2 a Croatian doctor about your injuries; is that correct?
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Page 22289
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Page 22290
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Page 22291
1 (redacted)
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4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
7 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you.
8 Q. Mr. Witness, today at temporary transcript page 40, today you
9 stated that you were abducted about 11 times. And in your statement you
10 say, in paragraph 7, when you're describing the incident at the pit, that
11 you had been taken away before some 11 times while returning home from
12 work. I understand this to mean that before the pit incident you were
13 taken 11 other times; am I understanding that correctly?
14 A. Throughout the period of my work there, I was taken away
15 11 times, before and after the pit, 11 times.
16 Q. And the last time that it happened, do you recall what the date
17 was the last time it happened?
18 A. No. I apologise, I remember that it was on the 27th of April,
19 1993, and on that occasion I saw a man, I saw what he looked like. This
20 wasn't the case before because they had masks on. Early in the morning I
21 was on my way to work, my leg was broken, and a black -- when a black
22 car, some kind of limousine, stopped between the Novi Grad municipality
23 and Sarajevo TV. The man offered me a ride. I refused and then he
24 offered again. He said: Why don't you get inside. I see you can barely
25 walk. You are going to work, aren't you? He had a shaved head and a
Page 22292
1 long beard. He asked me, obviously knowing where I worked, he asked me
2 whether it was difficult work and I said: No, it wasn't.
3 Q. Mr. Witness, sorry --
4 A. At the place where I was supposed to get off at the social
5 security administration --
6 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr. Witness, I'm trying to keep us on
7 pace. My question is merely to ask you -- and I'll just clarify. So
8 April 27th, 1993, is the last time you remember an incident where you
9 were taken away; is that correct?
10 A. I think there weren't any other abductions. If there were any
11 other encounters, it would have only been they would pull me into one of
12 the entrances and ask me: Where were you? What were you doing? And so
13 on. But this was just harassment.
14 MS. MacGREGOR: If I can please have 65 ter 30763, e-court
15 page 21.
16 Q. Again, I'm bringing up some of your testimony from the Milosevic
17 case. If we can look -- I'm looking at a section where the Prosecutor in
18 that case asked you a similar question, asked you when was the last time
19 that you were abducted.
20 If we can focus on around line 12, I'll read it to you, sir,
21 since you don't have it in B/C/S. Your answer was:
22 "The last time it happened it was in August of 1994, when, again,
23 I was placed in a black van where there were four persons who had been
24 tied up. I was taken somewhere in the territory of Pofalici, and before
25 my very eyes all of the four people were shot to death. They threatened
Page 22293
1 me that the same thing would happen to me the following day unless I went
2 to work."
3 Now, this incident is not included in the statement that you've
4 made for this case; is that correct?
5 A. I didn't say many things, not even on this occasion. I didn't
6 say everything to Mr. Ivetic. I didn't say that it had already been
7 ready, everything had already been prepared six months in advance, there
8 were some 6.000 hand-grenades that were supposed to be retrofitted. So
9 the factory where I was working, it had been already full of
10 hand-grenades that were just to be processed and finished. I can't -- so
11 this is the first time I'm saying it. I can't remember everything after
12 all the mistreatment and everything.
13 Q. Thank you. The incident that I've just read about to you, that
14 occurred after you were no longer working at the factory; is that
15 correct?
16 A. Yes, yes. Yes, on my way to the doctor's.
17 Q. So presumably you did not go to work the following day as you
18 were threatened to do?
19 A. No, I did not go to work. From the first day when I was put on
20 sick leave, I never worked after that. I only went to the factory when I
21 needed to get a referral for a specialist examination.
22 Q. Let's move actually now to that time while you were on sick
23 leave. Your treatment that you received was from the Kosevo hospital; is
24 that correct?
25 A. Yes.
Page 22294
1 Q. From June 1994 until the middle of 1996, you received treatment
2 at the Kosevo hospital every seven days; is that right?
3 A. No. I went there monthly, every month, because every time when I
4 saw the doctor she would extend my sick leave for another month.
5 MS. MacGREGOR: If we can have e-court page 64, please, of the
6 document that's currently on the screen.
7 JUDGE ORIE: While waiting for that, I would have one additional
8 question for you, Witness. You said about an incident some kind of a
9 limousine that stopped. Through the interpretation you may not be aware
10 that I'm putting a question to you at this moment, but I think you
11 earlier said it was always vans. Was that only one time that it was a
12 limousine or did it happen more often?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said that it was
14 always a black van, and on this occasion it was a black limousine. The
15 man wouldn't stop where I was supposed to get off, but took me to the
16 Bristol Hotel, to the entrance to the Orthodox Church and he told me:
17 Look what they're doing to us. He said he was also a Serb. There were
18 three human heads hanging on the front door handle, severed heads. And
19 then he said: You can pass here quickly to the factory. As I crossed to
20 the factory, I ran into an even greater horror, pack of stray dogs, some
21 15 of them, tearing into each other. When I wanted to pass by, I saw
22 that three of them had human heads hanging around their necks, and they
23 were fighting each other to eat into them.
24 That was on the 27 April ’93. I arrived earlier because this man
25 had given me a lift, and the armed men at the factory gate would not let
Page 22295
1 me in. They made me go farther away, I don't know what they were doing
2 there. I returned again at five to 7 and entered the factory.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And where exactly were those bodies? Were they in
4 the church or ...?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were at the door of the
6 church, on the handle of the entrance door, three severed heads were
7 hung on the door. It is the Church of Holy Transfiguration in Novo
8 Sarajevo.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And the dogs would then bite in those heads; is that
10 how I have to understand your testimony?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And when you said a minute ago: "They were biting
13 them and biting off parts of their bodies," what did you then have on
14 your mind if they were biting into the heads?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. They were
16 biting each other, fighting over who would get to the human head
17 first because obviously those dogs were hungry. They were
18 attacking those dogs who had human heads tied around their
19 necks.
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure that the witness is
21 clearly understood.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you -- then again, biting off parts of
23 their bodies, as you said before, was that one dog biting off parts of
24 the body of another dog or -- it's not entirely clear to me. Could you
25 further explain?
Page 22296
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Other dogs attacked those dogs
2 that had the human heads hung from their necks. Other dogs attacked them.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And did they bite off parts of the bodies of those
4 other dogs?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see that. It's very hard
6 to see that. I was trying to pass by as quickly as possible so they
7 wouldn't tear into me.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And you said the human heads hung from their necks,
9 from the necks of the dogs?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's right.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I interrupted when you -- I think the last
12 question that was put to you was about the frequency of treatment in
13 Kosevo hospital. I think you said it was monthly, and Ms. MacGregor was
14 now wants to put part of previous testimony to you. That's where we
15 were, Ms. MacGregor.
16 MS. MacGREGOR: Yes, thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I might just interrupt, Ms. MacGregor.
19 This incident with the dogs, did it happen before or after the
20 incident at the pit?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: After. And you say on this day you ran into a
23 pack of dogs?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, correct.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You were able to run notwithstanding the broken
Page 22297
1 leg that you sustained at the pit incident?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This sounds a bit funny to me as a
3 conclusion, but... forgive me.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm asking you --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To run into and to come across are
6 the same thing. I only moved with speed when I was thrown into that pit
7 among the corpses. The rest of the way I walked as slowly as I could.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Now, please carefully listen to the next question of
9 Ms. MacGregor. She -- the last thing she asked about your treatment at
10 Kosevo hospital was whether -- what the frequency was and I think you
11 said it was monthly because your sick leave would be extended every
12 month. And that's where Ms. MacGregor now resumes.
13 Ms. MacGregor.
14 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President. The e-court page that
15 I need on the screen is actually e-court page 18. Ms. Stewart corrected
16 me. Thank you.
17 Q. Mr. Witness, I'm turning to a portion of your testimony from
18 Milosevic trial that was about your treatment at Kosevo hospital.
19 MS. MacGREGOR: And if we can please scroll down a bit towards
20 line 21.
21 Q. I'll read to you from the transcript starting actually at
22 line 20.
23 "When I went on sick-leave in mid-1994, every seven days I would
24 go to my doctors for a checkup. On my way there, I had to pass by the
25 military hospital ..."
Page 22298
1 Mr. Witness, is it your testimony today that you went to the
2 Kosevo hospital every seven days or that you went once a month?
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 MS. MacGREGOR: Yeah. And I will just ask one more question and
11 then I know that it's time for a break.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MS. MacGREGOR: Just a clarification.
14 Q. Just to be clear, you walked from your flat to the
15 Kosevo hospital approximately -- approximately every seven days between
16 June 1994 and mid-1996; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us an indication as to how much time
19 you would still need after the break?
20 MS. MacGREGOR: 35 minutes, 30 minutes, I'm doing my best.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm also looking at you, Mr. Ivetic, because
22 30 minutes and then ...
23 MR. IVETIC: Right now --
24 JUDGE ORIE: After we resume that would -- how much time would
25 you need?
Page 22299
1 MR. IVETIC: Right now I have only one or two questions.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Only one or two questions. That might, then, be
3 resolved with an extended session of 10 to 15 minutes. I asked
4 Madam Registrar to inquire whether that would be possible.
5 We turn into closed session for the witness to leave the
6 courtroom and we'll resume in closed session at ten minutes to 2.00.
7 [Closed session]
8 (redacted)
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21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
24 Ms. MacGregor, you may proceed.
25 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
Page 22300
1 Q. We were talking before the break about the walk you made from
2 your flat to the Kosevo hospital. Is the distance between those
3 two places approximately 7 to 8 kilometres?
4 A. Yes, even more.
5 Q. And that walk took you about two hours; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And in part because of your injuries you walked slower than you
8 normally would; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. MacGREGOR: Can we please have Exhibit 65 ter 30766, not to
11 be broadcast, as it shows the location of the witness's residence. And,
12 Your Honours, I have printed large copies of the map, if the usher can
13 assist me to bring those up for you, it may help you as we look through
14 this exhibit.
15 Q. Mr. Witness, on the screen in front of you is a map of Sarajevo
16 that you marked during your testimony in the Milosevic trial. Now, do
17 you see that, sir, on the screen in front of you?
18 A. My eyesight is not good because the criminals who had taken me
19 away made me almost blind with the bags full of chemicals they put on my
20 head, so I don't see well. But let's try.
21 MS. MacGREGOR: I'll ask, perhaps it can be zoomed in slightly to
22 assist the witness.
23 Q. Okay. Do you see there's a red line going along --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is that red line -- does that represent the path that you took
Page 22301
1 from your flat to the Kosevo hospital?
2 JUDGE ORIE: No speaking at audible volume.
3 MS. MacGREGOR:
4 Q. I believe you just answered --
5 A. Yes. Here, the map does not show Kosevo hospital. This map
6 shows Marin Dvor up to the military hospital and the exit towards the
7 institute of hygiene, but it doesn't show the Kosevo hospital.
8 Q. Is it correct that the Kosevo hospital would be off of this map
9 to the north-east approximately?
10 A. I don't understand this very well. I know that Kosevo hospital
11 is not here.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Now, is there any disagreement between the parties
13 where Kosevo hospital is in relation to this map?
14 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And the Chamber is -- so we could -- if the witness
16 tells us Kosevo hospital and we know that -- at least we have seen that
17 before on maps that it is a relatively large compound or large area where
18 the various buildings of the Kosevo hospital are to be found. We can
19 move on.
20 MS. MacGREGOR: For your reference, Your Honours, the map in
21 Exhibit P0003, e-court page 72, hard copy page 65, shows that complex
22 marked as 71, and the military hospital which we will be discussing is
23 marked as 72.
24 Q. Mr. Witness, I wanted to ask you a few questions about your
25 walk -- your route to the hospital that you took. If you can give me one
Page 22302
1 moment. Okay.
2 As you would be leaving your flat --
3 JUDGE ORIE: By the way, since we moved in, it's not visible
4 anymore. If we move out again, we find at least the extreme parts of
5 Kosevo hospital still on the monitor. There we are at the very right
6 top. It's -- even an H is found there. You see it? So now we all have
7 it even on our screens.
8 MS. MacGREGOR: The view we have on the screen will be helpful
9 right now hopefully for the witness with the next series of questions.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, this should be the
11 Kosevo hospital marked with an H; right?
12 MS. MacGREGOR:
13 Q. Mr. Witness, if you can not mark the map at this point. Thank
14 you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness said that it was marked --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No. And that is, an H appears where approximately
18 the Kosevo hospital apparently is.
19 Please proceed.
20 MS. MacGREGOR: Okay. If we can zoom out a bit, please.
21 Q. Mr. Witness, I have some questions about the route you took and
22 you can use the map as a reference, but also you can just rely on your
23 memory. Now, across the Bulevar Mese Selimovica, across that street from
24 Alipasino Polje, is that where the PTT building was located?
25 MS. MacGREGOR: You may need to move the map slightly to the
Page 22303
1 right.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember now exactly. It's
3 still there but I can't see it because I don't see it well.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could we move in where -- I take it that we need the
5 left part of the -- that road, that area. Move in -- zoom in a bit more
6 perhaps even.
7 MS. MacGREGOR:
8 Q. Mr. Witness, from your memory, is that where the PTT building is
9 located?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Ms. MacGregor asked you to answer the
11 question using your memory. Is the PTT building located next to the main
12 big road between the -- between Alipasino Polje and Marin Dvor, is it on
13 that main road? Could you tell us?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember. I can't. I'm
15 not sure and I don't want to make a mistake.
16 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, I'll move on. And actually, why
17 don't we pull the map off the screen for the time being. I may come back
18 to it in a moment.
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 Q. Please just answer the questions based on your knowledge of the
24 town. Okay, as you would walk from your residence to the
25 Kosevo hospital, is it correct that you would pass the Marsal Tito
Page 22304
1 barracks?
2 A. Yes, but from the side facing the railway station.
3 Q. To be clear, I'm asking about the route you drew on the map which
4 is along the Bulevar Mese Selimovica; is that consistent with what you've
5 just answered?
6 A. I can't remember where Mese Selimovica Bulevar is.
7 Q. My understanding is that it's the main road along which the tram
8 lines run. Did you walk along the road that the tram lines run along?
9 A. Yes, up to Dolac Malta.
10 Q. Along that same road, you would pass the Holiday Inn; is that
11 correct?
12 A. No.
13 MS. MacGREGOR: I think we better bring the map back up. If we
14 can please again have Exhibit P30766.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps could we ask, you said you walked that road
16 where the tram lines are up to Dolac Malta. What did you do at
17 Dolac Malta? Did you leave that road?
18 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
19 JUDGE ORIE: In which direction, to the left or to the right when
20 you were heading for Marin Dvor?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the left.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is not indicated on the map as marked, it
23 seems.
24 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, can you give me one moment, please?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
Page 22305
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MS. MacGREGOR:
3 Q. Mr. Witness, we're a little confused. If you look at the map on
4 the screen in front of you, you drew a red line in the Milosevic trial
5 and that red line continues along the road where the tram lines are and
6 it continues along that road past the location that you've just
7 mentioned, Dolac Malta. Is the map on the screen in front of you, does
8 that represent the route that you walked to get to the Kosevo hospital?
9 A. To Dolac Malta, yes.
10 Q. And your testimony now is that at Dolac Malta you turned --
11 A. Left, because that's where the infirmary was.
12 Q. Can I ask you, in a pen that's blue, can you please draw starting
13 at Dolac Malta --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, could we first ask the witness.
15 You said: To the left, that's where the infirmary was. What infirmary
16 are you talking about?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the infirmary of the factory
18 where I worked, because I had to get referrals to the hospital or any
19 other doctor there.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So you first went to the infirmary and from there
21 you went to Kosevo hospital. Is that ...?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And did you need a referral every time you went to
24 Kosevo hospital?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, every time.
Page 22306
1 JUDGE ORIE: And if you go there with such frequency, why would
2 it be necessary to get a referral every single time you go to
3 Kosevo hospital?
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and would you then continue your road to the
11 Kosevo hospital, again through Dolac Malta, on the main road where the
12 tram tracks are or did you take a different route?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I told you, I went about
14 200 metres to the left from Dolac Malta, to where my infirmary was. And
15 then I went 500 metres more along the tram tracks, along the railway
16 station, into the city.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. MacGregor, I leave it further in your
18 hands. There may be other trams as well going in east-westerly
19 direction, at least at some spots, I do not know. But I don't know how
20 important the precise route is.
21 MS. MacGREGOR: I'd like to ask a few more questions. I'm
22 actually having trouble understanding the witness's testimony.
23 Q. If you could please, with the blue pen, starting at Dolac Malta,
24 show the route from that location to Kosevo hospital.
25 A. Could you enlarge this a bit because I can't see a thing.
Page 22307
1 JUDGE ORIE: Is this large enough for you, Witness?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I can see.
3 Can I draw the line?
4 MS. MacGREGOR:
5 Q. Is the pen working?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently the pen is working, yes.
7 MS. MacGREGOR:
8 Q. Yes, Witness, so you've marked Dolac Malta. Can you please
9 continue to draw the line where you walked from that point?
10 A. Yes. It would go like this. I didn't do this very well, but
11 that's the line. I would pass on this side up to Marin Dvor, the
12 military hospital is here.
13 Q. Okay. Thank you. That is very helpful. It looks like you would
14 for a -- for some distance you would -- okay. My comments aren't
15 necessary. I understand the drawing. Thank you.
16 MS. MacGREGOR: Can I ask that this be admitted as an exhibit
17 with the drawings of the witness, please.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 MS. MacGREGOR: Under seal.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30766 as marked by the witness receives
21 number P6576, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted under seal.
23 Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.
24 And we have green light for an extended session of 15 minutes.
25 MS. MacGREGOR: I'll do my best, Your Honour.
Page 22308
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the Chamber urges you to --
2 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And also to leave time for Mr. Ivetic for two or
4 three questions.
5 MS. MacGREGOR:
6 Q. In your statement at paragraph 13 and again today during your
7 testimony, you discuss seeing two ABiH mortars on the grounds of the
8 military hospital by Marin Dvor; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, within the compound of the military hospital at Marin Dvor
10 there were two artillery weapons.
11 Q. In this same paragraph, which is 13 of your statement, you
12 describe:
13 "On one occasion when I was walking towards the Kosevo hospital,
14 I heard and saw the Muslims firing mortars at the Serbian positions."
15 And to be clear, you're talking about something you saw at the
16 military hospital; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And this paragraph describes the one time that you saw mortars on
19 the military hospital ground being fired?
20 A. It was not once, several times.
21 Q. Was there something about this one occasion that caused you to
22 describe it specifically in this statement?
23 A. Maybe some things were left unsaid, but I just wanted to say that
24 from that location, from health institutions, artillery was firing at
25 Serb positions.
Page 22309
1 Q. We have evidence in our record from a doctor who worked at the
2 military hospital starting in May 1992 and throughout the war.
3 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, I'm referring to
4 Witness Bakir Nakas.
5 Q. Now, he testified that he stayed at the hospital practically day
6 and night around-the-clock and that no unit fired anywhere in the
7 vicinity of the hospital, nor did he receive any reports from security
8 that any such firing happened.
9 MS. MacGREGOR: I refer to transcript reference 8677.
10 Q. According to this witness, there was not a single
11 military-related facility in the vicinity of the hospital.
12 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, that's at that witness's statement
13 which is Exhibit P941.
14 Q. Mr. Witness, I'm asking you, can you really say with certainty
15 that you saw two mortars on the hospital grounds at the state hospital?
16 A. Well, somebody probably ordered that witness what he's supposed
17 to say. Nobody ordered me anything. I said that to the lawyers too.
18 I'm just saying what I saw. And I'm claim that I saw that not only once
19 but several times. Let me just add something else. From the health
20 centre -- oh, oh, all right.
21 Q. Mr. Witness, we're trying to -- I'm doing my best to get done
22 with your testimony today so please help me.
23 MS. MacGREGOR: If I can please have Exhibit 30 -- excuse me,
24 transcript -- excuse me, 65 ter 30763, page 74 in e-court.
25 Q. Mr. Witness, again I'm going to refer to an excerpt from your
Page 22310
1 Milosevic testimony. During that trial, the Prosecutor asked you if you
2 were aware that in your time in Sarajevo there was a considerable
3 presence of United Nations monitors and personnel. And I'm going to read
4 to you your answer. I'm starting at line 6 of the page in front of us.
5 "I never saw them. I would probably seek help from them. I had
6 heard of them being present there."
7 You were then asked:
8 "... you never saw United Nations personnel?
9 "A. No.
10 "Did you ever see United Nations APC or a United Nations
11 vehicle ...
12 "A. No."
13 Mr. Witness, so we are clear, from May 1992 until the middle of
14 1996, you did not see UN personnel in the city of Sarajevo?
15 A. I was interested in getting home alive because from every
16 high-rise and from every window there were barrels, guns hanging. From
17 Marin Dvor, I would walk by the hospital, I took this other route. If it
18 weren't for the building of the Executive Council, who knows how many
19 civilians they killed during the war, Croats, Muslims, and Serbs.
20 Q. My question was: Did you ever see UN personnel in the city of
21 Sarajevo during the war? That's a yes or no question.
22 A. I don't know anything. No, no. No.
23 Q. What about UN vehicles?
24 A. No.
25 MS. MacGREGOR: Can I please have Exhibit 30767 -- excuse me,
Page 22311
1 65 ter, and page 2 in e-court.
2 Q. I'm going to be showing you a photograph.
3 MS. MacGREGOR: Page 2, please. Oh, excuse me, that is page 2.
4 You know what, can we please go to the first page of this exhibit.
5 Q. Mr. Witness, do you recognise the Assembly building as the
6 building on the right side of this picture?
7 A. Maybe. I'm not sure.
8 Q. Do you see the vehicle, the UN APC, in front of the building in
9 that picture?
10 A. Yes, I see that. I don't know whose vehicle it is, but I see it.
11 Q. Well, you may not be able to see, but the letters "UN" are
12 written on the vehicle near the head of the man on the bicycle. There's
13 also a --
14 A. I see that now.
15 Q. There's also a blue flag, the UN flag, coming off the vehicle.
16 Do you see on the left-hand side a container?
17 A. Yes, I see that.
18 Q. When you walked along this street during the war, did you see
19 this kind of vehicle along the road?
20 A. No -- well, I wasn't interested. I've already told you, I was
21 interested in getting home alive.
22 Q. Did you see that kind of container that's featured on the left
23 side of the picture?
24 A. Well, to this day there are so many containers like that in
25 Sarajevo, in front of those private businesses.
Page 22312
1 MS. MacGREGOR: If we can look at the second page of this exhibit
2 again, please.
3 Q. You'll see in this picture there's another picture of the
4 containers. Are you aware these containers were used to protect
5 civilians walking along this route?
6 A. No. I did not see those containers anywhere along the route that
7 I took.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, were you at all aware that containers were
9 used to protect pedestrians in the town of Sarajevo?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe. But I've told you, on my
11 way to the factory there weren't any containers anywhere.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And on your way to Kosevo hospital?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not there either. At least I
14 didn't notice.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 MS. MacGREGOR:
17 Q. I'm going to read to you from your testimony again in Milosevic.
18 This is transcript reference 8858. You were being asked about walking
19 down this route.
20 "On your trip, sir, down this road that you took to the
21 Kosevo hospital, did you ever notice barricades, containers, and other
22 contraptions that were used to protection civilians?"
23 Your answer:
24 "I was only looking at the containers and barricades."
25 Now, you've just said at line -- page 94, line 23, when asked a
Page 22313
1 similar question: I did not see those containers anywhere along that
2 route. And you said that you were not looking at anything, you were just
3 trying to stay alive.
4 Can you explain why in the Milosevic trial you testified that you
5 did see such barricades?
6 A. I doubt I said that.
7 MS. MacGREGOR: Can I please have this exhibit entered into
8 evidence?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30767 receives number P6577,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
13 If the parties are interested in verifying the audio from the
14 Milosevic case, of course there's always an opportunity to do that.
15 I'm looking at the clock, Ms. MacGregor, and --
16 MS. MacGREGOR: I realise -- I'm not finished. The answers of
17 the witness haven't been as I expected and I expect I would need an
18 additional 10 to 15 minutes.
19 MR. IVETIC: I'm still at two or three questions, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me ...
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is inclined not to push any further and
23 to -- and to continue tomorrow. But before doing so, I would like to
24 move briefly into private session.
25 [Private session]
Page 22314
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the Chamber has considered the reasons why you
22 would prefer to go home today. The Chamber has decided that we'll
23 unfortunately have to go on tomorrow. It will not take much time
24 tomorrow morning, most likely only half a session or even less, that
25 means that most likely we'll conclude before 10.30. But we need your
Page 22315
1 presence still tomorrow. And before you'll be escorted out of the
2 courtroom, I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak with anyone
3 about your testimony, whether it is testimony you have given today or the
4 testimony that is still there to be given tomorrow. And we'd like to see
5 you back tomorrow morning at 9.30.
6 I announce already to the public that once we are back in
7 closed session, that we'll adjourn for the day and that we'll resume
8 tomorrow, Friday, the 6th of June, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same
9 courtroom, I.
10 Yes, Ms. MacGregor.
11 MS. MacGREGOR: If I may raise one administrative matter. If I
12 could have 65 ter 30766, which is the map before he marked in it zoomed
13 out, if I could also ask that that be admitted as an exhibit because the
14 map that we currently have in evidence doesn't show the entire map.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the blue marking? I know that once we are
16 zooming in and out that there are limitations of what can still be stored
17 and not. Could you perhaps -- once we have adjourned check whether
18 there's any technical problem. If not, a decision will be taken
19 tomorrow.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just to be clear, is that the map where the
21 red line was drawn in the previous case?
22 MS. MacGREGOR: Yes.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That should be at least under seal, as you
24 indicated earlier?
25 MS. MacGREGOR: You're correct, Your Honour. Thank you.
Page 22316
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You mean just the map as marked by the witness
2 in the other case, without the blue markings? Or with the blue markings?
3 MS. MacGREGOR: I actually would like there to be two exhibits.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
5 MS. MacGREGOR: Because I think -- I'll talk with your staff.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, then -- well, Madam Registrar is always of
7 great assistance to us but is not our staff. Perhaps she would not even
8 like to be our staff.
9 We turn into closed session in order to adjourn for the day and
10 for the witness to be allowed to leave the courtroom.
11 [Closed session]
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.32 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Friday, the 6th day of
19 June, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.
20
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