1 Friday, 6 June 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 The Chamber was informed that there were preliminary matters to
11 be raised.
12 Mr. Ivetic.
13 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours. I don't know if the Prosecution
14 has anything preliminary but I have a preliminary matter to raise that
15 pertains to GRM311 and the last bit of questioning from yesterday that,
16 in fact, time-wise may have been the reason that we had to continue the
17 witness today for ten to 15 minutes despite the efforts to finish the
18 witness yesterday, including the request by VWS.
19 Beginning at transcript page 22294, line 13 onwards, there are
20 some considerable lapses in the translation that became evident from
21 reviewing the videotape of yesterday's hearing, where the original B/C/S
22 spoken by the witness does not correlate to the English that is a part of
23 the transcript. We are mindful of how difficult a job it is to
24 simultaneously translate, and indeed the translator said at
25 transcript page 22295, lines 20 through 21:
1 "The interpreter is not sure that the witness is clearly
3 There is apparent confusion seen from both the questions of
4 Judges Moloto and Orie that appear to be the result of the incomplete and
5 imprecise translation that we believe may have misled Your Honours. For
6 purposes of correcting the record, the incidence at transcript
7 page 22294, lines 13 through 19, the witness never mentioned headless
8 bodies hanging from a church door but rather decapitated human heads. He
9 never mentioned the hospital, he mentioned a factory. The fact that the
10 driver claimed himself to be Serbian also is entirely missing from the
12 Continuing at lines 19 through 25, the witnesses words are not
13 entered when he said:
14 "Going towards the factory, I came across an even greater horror
15 where stray dogs, a pack of around 15 of them, were biting each other,
16 and when I wanted to pass, three them had human heads tied around their
17 necks and were fighting with one another to try and chew them. That was
18 27 April 1993. I came earlier, as I had been driven by that guy, and
19 armed people at the gate would not let me inside. Rather, they made me
20 go far away."
21 This is significantly different from the English transcript. The
22 words that Judge Orie asks about at transcript page 22295, lines 12 to
24 "They were biting them and biting off parts of their bodies," is
25 not to be found in the B/C/S original of what the witness said.
1 It is significant that neither in the English -- pardon me,
2 neither in the B/C/S original does the witness ever say that he was
3 running. That notion of running is for the first time raised by
4 Judge Moloto's question at transcript page 22296, line 25, putting the
5 words to the witness that he did not say. The Serbian word used by the
6 witness in the first instance was "naletio sam." Judge Moloto's question
7 as to running is translated to the witness in B/C/S as follows:
8 [Interpretation] "That means that you were almost rushing along.
9 You could move very fast, even though your leg was broken in this
10 incident near the pit."
11 [In English] The Serbian word --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, sorry to interrupt you. I suggest -- I
13 have a suggestion, but I'd first like to briefly discuss it with my
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, the Chamber had some concerns that you
17 are giving translations, but apart from that, the Chamber also
18 understands your concerns.
19 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Whether that is the most appropriate way of dealing
21 with them is another matter. But the Chamber suggests the following, and
22 would like to hear from the parties whether they would agree. First of
23 all, that the yesterday's audio will be again interpreted and transcribed
24 in full; second, that the witness will be asked to tell this part of his
25 testimony, this piece of the story again, in detail, so that we have both
1 a better insight in what may have gone wrong yesterday. And second, that
2 we hear now the testimony of the witness in full on this incident.
3 Mr. Ivetic, would that --
4 MR. IVETIC: That is in line with what we were intending to
5 ask --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
7 MR. IVETIC: -- insofar as we wanted the section from transcript
8 pages 22294 through 22298, including both the B/C/S translated to the
9 witness and the B/C/S spoken by the witness and the correct English
10 equivalents of both to be redone by CLSS. So that would be in line with
11 what Your Honours are suggesting, I think.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 Ms. MacGregor.
14 MS. MacGREGOR: Good morning, Your Honours. The Prosecution has
15 no objection to the review and retranslation of the transcript excerpts.
16 As to asking the same questions to the witness today, I'll defer
17 to the Chamber. I would point out that the two particular issues that
18 Mr. Ivetic has raised were actually corrected by the witness himself.
19 The issue about headless bodies, eventually later in the transcript he
20 corrected to say, no, it wasn't headless bodies, it was heads. And the
21 question dealing with Judge Moloto's question about running, the witness
22 himself said "to run into," is different. So I actually found that
23 overall it was clear what the witness had said and he managed to correct
24 that himself.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, the Chamber will invite the witness to
2 tell the story again, and if any further unclarities remain, you still
3 have an opportunity in re-examination to further clarify these matters.
4 Since the parties seem to be in support of the suggested way to proceed,
5 that's what we'll do.
6 MS. MacGREGOR: If I can request that it be done before I begin
7 the rest of my cross-examination.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I wanted to -- yes, because if there is any
9 confusion during cross-examination, you should have an opportunity to --
10 to further explore matters once they have been clarified. And to the
11 extent they are not, Mr. Ivetic still has an opportunity to further seek
13 Mr. Ivetic, any other matter.
14 MR. IVETIC: No, that is all that I had, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. MacGregor, I was informed that you had a
16 question as well as.
17 MS. MacGREGOR: Mine are actually just about exhibits and
18 administrative housekeeping, so I can deal with it as the witness is
19 brought in if you would prefer to save time.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although it may take some time because we might
21 need Madam Registrar to assign numbers, et cetera, and I'd rather avoid
22 that the witness has to wait again. So let's first deal with those.
23 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 The first matter is yesterday we had Exhibit P6576 entered into
25 evidence. This was the map zoomed in with the blue line drawn upon it.
1 I've talked to the Registrar and I would like to have the map zoomed out
2 without the line as a separate additional exhibit. My understanding is
3 that's the only way to have both versions before the Chamber.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if you say the map without the line, you
5 mean the blue line because the red lines were there already.
6 MS. MacGREGOR: Correct. So the 65 ter of the original is 30766.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that original version with the red
8 marking made in a previous case would receive number?
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30766 receives number P6578,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
12 Yes, Ms. MacGregor.
13 MS. MacGREGOR: And my last, final issue. Yesterday you may
14 remember that I put a question to the witness regarding enquiries that
15 the --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MS. MacGREGOR: -- Prosecution made about his health records.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Health records or enquiries about how his medical
19 situation was perceived by coworkers?
20 MS. MacGREGOR: The enquiry was for that purpose but also to
21 determine if there were any health records in the custody of his
22 employer. The response that --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Should we -- can we deal with it in open session?
24 MS. MacGREGOR: We can.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
1 MS. MacGREGOR: The response that we received is an internal OTP
2 report describing the interview that was conducted. We are in the
3 process of determining if we may seek to tender that into evidence and
4 we'll have a determination by next week.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Have you shared it with the Defence?
6 MS. MacGREGOR: Yes, Mr. President. I gave a copy to Mr. Ivetic
7 yesterday morning.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And you postpone your determination whether or not
9 you want to tender it?
10 MS. MacGREGOR: Yes, but I intend to give information to the
11 Chamber by next week.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. IVETIC: And I can report that I received the English
14 translation. I would like to see what the language is in the original
15 and what the source is.
16 MS. MacGREGOR: I will do that very soon.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. And that will then be included in your
18 submissions we could expect next week.
19 Having said this, we have to turn briefly into closed session in
20 order to have the witness be escorted in the courtroom. After that,
21 we'll return into open session.
22 [Closed session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Good morning, Witness GRM311.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
13 JUDGE ORIE: May I first remind you that you are still bound by
14 the solemn declaration that you have given at the beginning of your
15 testimony, that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
16 the truth.
17 WITNESS: GRM311 [Resumed]
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Having said this, I would like to revisit a matter
20 which was dealt with yesterday. Yesterday you have given testimony about
21 an event which you described as starting with being taken into a black
22 limousine, and what happened then, that is, about the dogs. Do you
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, there may have been some confusion about your
1 testimony. There may have been some translation issues, and for that
2 reason, I would ask you to tell us that part of the story again. And if
3 you do that in small portions, then we may have some additional questions
4 in order to avoid that further confusion would arise.
5 So therefore, I would like to invite you to tell us again what
6 happened when, as you said yesterday, you were stopped and you were taken
7 into a black limousine. You said the men wouldn't stop, whereas you were
8 supposed to get off, that part of the story. Could you please tell us
9 that event again. So your limousine stopped, and could you tell us then
10 what exactly happened?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only the driver was in the car. I
12 said that he didn't wear a mask, he had a long beard, and his head was
13 shaved. In front of the Novi Grad Municipal Assembly building or
14 Assembly building, he opened the door and asked me, "Where are you
15 going?" I said that I was going to work. He said to me, "Well, I can
16 see that you're walking with difficulty and I'm going in the direction of
17 the town. I can give you a lift." I told him that it was about a
18 quarter past 5.00. I told him that I had plenty of time to get to the
19 factory and to begin my work. Once again he said, "Get in, get in, I can
20 give you a lift because I can see that you're walking with difficulty."
21 We talked a little, he asked me where did I work, how many of you were
22 there. It was obvious that he knew about my work.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. Please be cautious that if
24 any part of the story, because you now started telling us a discussion
25 about where you worked, that you do not reveal any deals such that
1 someone would be able to identify you. So please be very cautious and
2 ask for private session if you think you should tell us something that
3 might reveal your identity.
4 Please proceed.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 22327-22331 redacted. Private session.
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 Ms. MacGregor will now continue her cross-examination,
4 Witness GRM311. Listen carefully to the questions and we'll try to keep
5 it as short as possible.
6 Ms. MacGregor.
7 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Cross-examination by Ms. MacGregor: [Continued]
9 Q. Good morning again, Mr. Witness.
10 A. Good morning.
11 MS. MacGREGOR: If I could please have Exhibit P6576 to not be
13 Q. Sir, I'm going to bring up again the map we were looking at
14 yesterday, the map that has the red line showing your route from your
15 home to Kosevo hospital.
16 Now, when we're looking at the map, I'm going to ask you if you
17 can see the railroad lines. They're shown as two black double lines
18 pretty much parallel to the red line that you drew on the map. So once
19 it comes up on your screen, we'll look for that line together. Okay?
20 JUDGE ORIE: It takes a while to appear on your screen.
21 MS. MacGREGOR:
22 Q. Okay. It seems to have come up now. If you look slightly above
23 the red line, do you see the railroad track lines that I'm referring to?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And just based on your knowledge of Sarajevo, are you familiar
1 with the fact that there is a railroad line that runs along there?
2 A. Yes.
3 MS. MacGREGOR: I need to go into private session for one
4 question please, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
6 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. Mr. Witness, was there a road that ran -- is there a road that
21 runs along the railroad tracks that we were just talking about?
22 A. Now, yes. It was built after the war.
23 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, can I have one moment?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
1 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Now, if we can zoom out a little bit from this map right now.
3 Just about one click.
4 Q. Okay. Mr. Witness, do you see at the upper right-hand corner of
5 this page there is a red rectangle along the railroad tracks which
6 represents the train station?
7 MS. MacGREGOR: And if it assists, perhaps we can zoom in on that
8 particular quadrant.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I think I see that.
10 MS. MacGREGOR:
11 Q. And if we look --
12 MS. MacGREGOR: Can I ask that we do zoom in a bit on that
14 Q. And if we look just under the railroad station, we see a road.
15 It's very difficult to read, but the road is called Put Zivota, which is
16 the "Route of Life." And do you know that street?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You're not --
19 A. Put Zivota? I just heard that the Muslims proclaimed that. Now,
20 why that was Put Zivota, the "Route of Life," I don't know.
21 Q. You're not aware that it was called that because it was an
22 alternative safer route than walking along the Marshal Tito barracks
23 along the red line that you have drawn on the map?
24 MR. IVETIC: I would object -- well, no, I withdraw my objection.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.
1 MS. MacGREGOR:
2 Q. Mr. Witness, my question was: You're not aware that this street
3 was called the "Route of Life" because it was known as an alternative,
4 safer route than the more dangerous route in front of the Marshal Tito
5 barracks, you are unaware of that fact; is that correct?
6 A. I don't know why that street was called that. I only heard of
7 this name only after the war when I returned to Sarajevo.
14 I want to ask you, you've drawn on this map now --
15 A. All right.
16 Q. -- a red line and a blue line to show the route that you walked
17 to get to Kosevo hospital. Now, you've just said that you regularly took
18 a different route, Put Zivota, which you've not drawn as your route. Can
19 you explain which of these routes did you regularly take?
20 A. I took this road, by the railway station. I didn't draw this
21 right because I can't see. This is the blue line that I drew yesterday,
22 but I didn't draw it properly. I went further away from the railway
23 station. Yes, this is where the railway station is. I think that this
24 precisely is the railway station, this, and this is where I went. Along
25 this route. The Marshal Tito barracks was a sort of shield there, and it
1 went almost to Marin Dvor or to the mechanical engineering school or the
2 technical school.
3 Q. When you've been saying "this," "this is the railway station,"
4 are you still referring to the red rectangular shape?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, are you aware that the route that is drawn in
7 red on this map was known as sniper alley because of how dangerous it was
8 during the war?
9 A. I don't know what it was called during the war. Even after the
10 war I did not hear of that name. I know that sniper shooters were firing
11 from the technical school, from the executive council building, and from
12 two museums. All of that is there when you enter Marin Dvor.
13 Q. Okay.
14 MS. MacGREGOR: We can remove the map from the screen. Thank
16 Q. Mr. Witness, you've given evidence that you walked along a route
17 between your house and the Kosevo hospital once a week for nearly
18 two years during the war. You testified that you walked past the
19 PTT building, the Marshal Tito barracks, the Holiday Inn, the
20 National Museum, the Assembly building; is that correct?
21 A. Excuse me. I did not go by the Holiday Inn. I went along this
22 route that I mentioned, by the railway station. Then I got into
23 Kranjcevica Street where the military hospital is. And then along that
24 street, next to the military hospital, I would go to the centre next to
25 the Radnik cinema.
1 Q. You testified that when you walked, you never saw barricades or
2 containers for civilians to hide in along the route. You also testified
3 that throughout the entire war, from May 1992 until the middle of 1996,
4 approximately four years, you testified that you never once saw
5 UN personnel or UN vehicles in Sarajevo; is that correct?
6 A. Maybe I did see that but I don't remember seeing that, because
7 there is nothing that would particularly attract me to that. Well,
8 please, Muslims had tens of vehicles marked as UN in order to get closer
9 to the Serbs to destroy them. The international community knows that but
10 nobody reacted to that. The Muslims are now bragging about that in
11 streets, in cafes, saying where they went and what they did.
12 Q. Did you observe UN vehicles that were actually in the -- under
13 the control of Muslims during the war?
14 A. I did not see vehicles like that in anybody's hands. I heard
15 people talking.
16 Q. So the information you just provided is based on something that
17 you've heard either during the war or after the war; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, because I've already said I did not see that but I heard,
19 even now, that they talk about that in public, that they camouflaged
20 their own vehicles, their own tanks, painting the UN sign on them, in
21 order to attack the Serbs.
22 Q. Sir, I put it to you that your observations about what you saw in
23 Sarajevo, especially your lack of ever seeing the presence of the UN
24 during the war, that your observations about seeing mortars and artillery
25 and snipers --
1 A. No --
2 Q. Sir --
3 A. -- I didn't see that.
4 Q. -- I put it to you that your observations cannot be relied upon.
5 It is simply beyond belief that you would not have seen the presence of
6 the UN during the war. Do you have any explanation?
7 A. No, because I wasn't interested in that. I was only interested
8 in how I could get to work and how I could go back home and how I could
9 do what I had been ordered to do. And what I saw, mortars, cannons, I
10 had to see that because I passed by them just a metre or two away.
11 Q. You've also been inconsistent about the route that you took
12 regularly between 1994 and 1996 to get from your house to the
13 Kosevo hospital. Much of the route you've described would have been
14 through one of the most dangerous, notorious thoroughfares in Sarajevo
15 during the war, passing major military targets. This route, there is
16 evidence that it was lined with barricades and containers in an attempt
17 to protect civilians which you say you didn't see. You also claim you
18 would have taken that route even though you were aware that there were
19 safer routes to the north that you were aware of from where you worked.
20 Now, this doesn't make sense to me that you would choose an unsafe route,
21 especially as an injured man walking for two hours. Can you explain why
22 you chose that?
23 MR. IVETIC: I believe, Your Honours, I would have to object to
24 the question being compound, misstating what the witness actually said,
25 relying upon uncited evidence or testifying. I mean, I can't tell the
1 difference between it in the long, rambling question as it is.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor, could you split up. And whenever you
3 refer to the evidence of the witness, be precise on it.
4 MS. MacGREGOR: I will try to do so.
5 JUDGE ORIE: In addition to that, could you also refrain from any
6 argumentative elements in your questions --
7 MS. MacGREGOR: Yes, Your Honour. I'm attempting, under
8 Rule 90(H) --
9 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not --
10 MS. MacGREGOR: -- to make it clear what our position is.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking you to explain why you put a
12 question; I'm giving you guidance and instructions on how to put a
14 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President. Excuse me for one
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 MS. MacGREGOR: Sorry, Your Honours. I notice that this is also
18 a time for a break. I think it's going to take me a bit of time to
19 breakup this question efficiently, so I don't know if this is a good
20 moment to take that break.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take the break now.
22 We have to move into closed session in order to allow the witness
23 to leave the courtroom, and we'll resume in 20 minutes, again in
24 closed session, and then turn into open session after that.
25 [Closed session]
11 Page 22342 redacted. Closed session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
6 Ms. MacGregor, you may proceed.
7 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Mr. Witness, I'm going to take my questions a little slower.
9 You've marked a route in red on a map to show how you walked to the
10 Kosevo hospital, and you did that during your Dragomir Milosevic
11 testimony; is that correct?
12 A. It may be so. However, I used the main road, and most of the
13 time I used the route I yesterday marked in blue.
14 Q. Today you also mentioned a third route which included the road of
15 Put Zivota; is that correct?
16 MR. IVETIC: I object. It misstates the evidence from yesterday,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: But I think that Ms. MacGregor was referring to
19 today and --
20 MR. IVETIC: It's not different from yesterday, Your Honour. If
21 you look --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
23 MR. IVETIC: -- at the transcript at page 22306, the route
24 described by the witness --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so you would say --
1 MR. IVETIC: -- is that same route that we've talked about today.
2 And at transcript page 22- --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but -- Mr. Ivetic --
4 MR. IVETIC: Can I make a record, Your Honour?
5 JUDGE ORIE: No. It's clear what you meant when you said that --
6 as a matter of fact, you said it misstates the evidence from yesterday,
7 whereas the question was about today --
8 MR. IVETIC: Being different from yesterday.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. I now understand that. I think
10 Ms. MacGregor now also understands better the reference made by you. And
11 it's my recollection that the witness explained a few things and, apart
12 from all that, he said today that he's not very good at marking which
13 may --
14 MR. IVETIC: Which he also said yesterday when he marked it,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. IVETIC: At transcript line [sic] 22307, 10 through 12.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor, could you have a look at it and then
19 again put your question to the witness.
20 MS. MacGREGOR: Can I have one moment, please.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Of course.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, it would take me a moment to study
24 the transcript references Mr. Ivetic gave against the map, but I don't
25 agree with the summary that Mr. Ivetic has given. My understanding of
1 this witness's evidence is that --
2 JUDGE ORIE: We're not, in the presence of the witness,
3 discussing what it is. You'll have an opportunity to further look at it.
4 If you put your next question to the witness, then you'll be given time
5 to look at those pages and the Chamber will do the same.
6 Please proceed.
7 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Mr. Witness, I want it to be clear to you what the Prosecution
9 position is on the evidence you've given about the route that you walked.
10 What I'm putting to you is that the observations that you've conveyed
11 about what you saw when you walked between your residence and the
12 Kosevo hospital, that those observations are unreliable because you've
13 been very inconsistent about where, in fact, you walked.
14 Do you have any comment?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it will be made.
1 Mr. Ivetic, by the way, on page 22310, I think you referred to
2 lines 7 to 12?
3 MR. IVETIC: 22307, lines 10 through 12.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I misheard.
5 Please proceed.
6 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Witness, I'm going to move on to a different topic.
8 The medical care that you received at Kosevo hospital, did you
9 ever receive treatment for your leg or your broken arm -- your broken arm
10 or broken leg?
11 A. Not during the war.
19 Q. Today, Mr. Witness, when describing the incident with the man
20 with the shaved head, you testified at transcript pages 14 to 17 of the
21 temporary transcript, you testified that you believed he was trying to
22 destabilise you psychologically. Now, did you feel psychologically
23 destabled [sic] as a result of that incident and the other incidents
24 you've talked about?
25 A. All Serbs who spent the war in Sarajevo were psychologically
1 destabilised. If necessary, I can mention the names of those Serbs who
2 were there during the war; although, I don't see them in Sarajevo itself
3 as much or nearly as much as here in The Hague. All of them are
4 destabilised. People walk about talking about things that simply don't
5 exist. I know a case of someone who said that he was going to run for
6 president. In other words, all of us were destabilised.
7 Q. I want to ask you a few questions to follow up. So only Serbs
8 who were in Sarajevo were psychologically destabilised? What about
9 Bosnian Muslims?
10 A. You can check that.
11 Q. But what about your knowledge about Bosnian Muslims and what they
12 suffered during the war?
13 A. Did they discuss my life in Sarajevo during the war, the life
14 that was imposed on me by them? Did you ever bother to check that,
15 Madam Prosecutor?
16 Q. You've talked about many crimes that you saw committed against
17 Serb civilians. I'm asking did you ever see or hear about crimes
18 committed against Muslims civilians?
19 A. I can't discuss that. Until 1994, I was mostly in the factory,
20 save for a few hours that I would get to spend home. In the evening when
21 I did, they would call me three times per night to see whether I was
22 there. When my wife answered, they wanted me on the phone personally.
23 If I took -- when I took sick leave, the telephone was cut off
25 Q. We don't have a lot of time, so I ask you, please, to listen to
1 the questions I'm asking. Now you worked -- your two colleagues at the
2 factory were Muslims; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. They never told you about crimes committed against Muslims that
5 they heard about. Is that what you're saying?
6 A. No, there was no time to talk. 120 or 150 hand-grenades had to
7 be made each day, and we did so without even as much as looking at each
8 other, let alone talking.
9 Q. You were a civilian during the war; correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You're not an expert on artillery; is that right?
12 A. No.
13 Q. I want to ask you a question about paragraph 15 of your
14 statement. This is the paragraph where you describe how you got your
15 daughter and your wife out of Sarajevo. The final sentence of that
16 paragraph, you say:
17 "Neither any of the international organisations nor UNPROFOR
18 helped me to get members of my family out of the city."
19 Now, you've said today that you did not see the presence of the
20 UN in the city during the war, so why would you mention here in your
21 statement that UNPROFOR did not assist you?
22 A. Precisely because I didn't see them. I didn't know where they
23 were to be found. I asked for help from the Muslims in my settlement. I
24 asked for help from their command, but they wanted me to pay
25 5.000 German marks only for my daughter to come out of the town, and I
1 didn't have that kind of money.
2 Q. So you did not approach UNPROFOR for assistance; is that correct?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Turning to the incident again at the pit. Now, you've given
5 evidence that as a result of that incident you broke your arm and your
7 MS. MacGREGOR: That's at transcript 22261.
8 Q. You also gave evidence that you had fainting spells several times
9 a day as a result.
10 MS. MacGREGOR: That's at 22288.
11 Q. You gave evidence that you continued to walk to work between
12 January 1993 and June of 1994, a distance of 5 kilometres each way.
13 MS. MacGREGOR: This is at transcript 22280.
14 Q. Today, you said you could barely walk from the same injury.
15 Yesterday you mentioned not being able to walk at all during this period.
16 MS. MacGREGOR: That's at 22261.
17 Q. You gave evidence that you worked the same schedule 12 hours a
18 day, seven days a week, at a physically demanding job.
19 MS. MacGREGOR: That's at transcript 22281 through 22283.
20 Q. Additionally, your account of the incident at the pit has
21 changed. On two occasions during your testimony in the Milosevic trial,
22 you were recorded as saying that the incident occurred on the
23 27th of October 1992, and we discussed this yesterday at transcript 22285
24 through 86. You never once mentioned during the Milosevic trial that
25 that incident occurred on Serb Christmas Eve. You confirmed that
1 yesterday at transcript page 22286. Yesterday you said that the incident
2 happened on 5 January 1993, and your explanation of why the dates were
3 different from your Milosevic testimony is that somebody made a mistake,
4 and that's at 22284.
5 And I put it to you that your evidence that you've given about
6 the pit, what you saw and what happened to you, is simply incredible
7 based on the information I've just summarised. Do you have any
18 [Private session]
11 Page 22351 redacted. Private session.
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 You may proceed, Ms. MacGregor.
12 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Sir, you've claimed that you were abducted 11 times. This is in
14 your statement -- 11 or 12 times, excuse me. Your statement at
15 paragraph 7 and also at transcript page 22258. On the same transcript
16 page, you claim that when you were abducted you were threatened every
18 You testified that you never threatened to quit your job at the
20 MS. MacGREGOR: And that's at 22283.
21 Q. In fact, you also testified that the factory's own doctors
22 recommended that you permanently leave the factory on -- excuse me, to go
23 on sick leave.
24 MS. MacGREGOR: And that's at 22290.
3 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 MS. MacGREGOR:
13 Q. Mr. Witness, I have no doubt that you lived through traumatic
14 events during the war. The Prosecution has no doubt about that.
15 However, your testimony about being an eye-witness to murders, mutilated
16 bodies, it has been inconsistent and incredible in the position of the
18 Now, is it possible that these are not events that you yourself
19 actually witnessed?
20 A. All I said I said because I witnessed it. I didn't utter a
21 single word that was not first-hand. If I -- if there was something that
22 was not observed directly, I specified it to you example by example. But
23 I will never forget what happened on the 5th of January, 1993, not
24 because of the fact that my arm and leg were broken but because of all
25 the psychological suffer I sustained. I began having fainting spells. I
1 forgot about my arm and leg at the time, forgetting that it hurt, which
2 is now coming back. I am paying for that now. As the Sarajevo
3 physicians told me: Well, your injuries had not been treated and now
4 you're facing those problems. However, the psychological problems are
5 there to stay.
6 MS. MacGREGOR: I have no further questions, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. MacGregor.
8 Before we give you an opportunity to re-examine the witness,
9 Mr. Ivetic, Judge Fluegge would have a question.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we please have Exhibit D509, which is under
11 seal, which should not be broadcast, and I'm referring to paragraph 16.
12 That should be on the screen, please.
13 And I want to read one sentence from your statement, Witness. In
14 fact, two sentences at the end of paragraph 16. I think you see it on
15 the screen. There I read, I quote:
16 "Some pupils carried hand-grenades," and I leave out some words,
17 "in their school bags. These pupils carried lists with the names and
18 addresses of people at whom they were supposed to throw the hand-grenades
19 that day."
20 Can you explain where that happened? Where did you see these
21 pupils and when did that happen?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In December 1992, on my way out
23 from the plant where I was working, my colleague was standing there, a
24 Serb who worked there. He wasn't working on grenades. He was entrusted
25 on preparations for processing. He was working with three boys of some
1 15 or 16 years of age. I don't know the exact date. Maybe it was the
2 2nd or the 3rd of December. And he said -- I mean, it's evident that he
3 knew them, whose children they were, they knew their names. He said,
4 "Here's the workman who does this," and they were curious. They stood
5 around me. They were asking me questions and showing me that this is
6 what they had in their bags, that these were casings made of thin tin and
7 there were 12 grenades in there fixed so that they wouldn't shift. They
8 showed me that each one of them had a paper stating where that day or
9 that evening they were supposed to throw that grenade. They were
10 carrying the paper with them. I didn't ask for it. (redacted)
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 22357-22365 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Witness, this concludes your testimony. I would like to thank
13 you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having answered
14 all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench,
15 and I wish you a safe return home again. Before you leave the courtroom,
16 we'll briefly go into closed session and I already announce that we'll
17 immediately also take a break and that we'll resume, and then, I think,
18 in open session for the next witness, we'll resume at 20 minutes past
19 12.00. You may follow the usher after we have turned into closed
21 We turn into closed session.
22 [Closed session]
3 [Open session]
4 --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
6 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
7 Mr. Stojanovic, no protective measures?
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that sooner or later the report I
11 think Mr. Weber started to give, that we'll hear from that soon? I
12 didn't want to interrupt at that time the -- the testimony of the witness
13 coming in.
14 MR. GROOME: Certainly, Your Honour. And if I -- I think he's
15 already pointed it out, but a Google search of the hotel shows the hotel
16 and the church next to it. So I think we'll agree on what the exhibit
17 will be and we can tender that sometime next week. I think there are
18 some other residual matters from that witness.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's --
20 MR. IVETIC: That's correct. And Mr. Weber has other duties this
21 afternoon so we were going to meet to go over that at some later point,
22 but we have located, with the name of the church, the physical address.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, Mr. Mladic, no saluting when the witness
1 comes in. You should refrain from that and you know it.
2 Good afternoon, Mr. Andan, I take it. Before you give evidence,
3 the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. The text is now
4 handed out to you. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. I solemnly declare
6 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: DRAGOMIR ANDAN
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Andan. Please be seated.
10 Mr. Andan, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.
11 Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic, and you noticed already that
12 you find him to your left.
13 You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Andan, I would like to ask you to state for
17 the transcript your name and surname exactly.
18 A. My name is Dragomir Andan.
19 Q. Will you tell the Court whether at one point in time you gave a
20 statement in writing to Mr. Mladic's Defence?
21 A. Yes, I gave a statement in writing.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please
23 have document 65 ter 1D01602. Could we please have that in e-court.
24 Also I would like us to take a look at the first page.
25 Q. Mr. Andan, the information, the personal details on this page,
1 are these details details that correspond to your own?
2 A. Yes, this is accurate.
3 Q. And the signature on this page, is it your signature?
4 A. Yes, that is my signature.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now take a look at the
7 last page of this document.
8 Q. Mr. Andan, when preparing for this testimony, did I give you an
9 opportunity to look at your statement and did I give you this written
10 statement consisting of a total of four pages?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: We still have the first page --
12 JUDGE ORIE: We are still waiting for the B/C/S last page of the
13 document. There we are.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise.
15 Q. Did you have an opportunity to take a look at this statement? As
16 stated here it has a total of three pages, and also is this your
18 A. Yes, I've had an opportunity of looking at this statement, and
19 this is my signature and the date is the 8th of May, 2014.
20 Q. Thank you. If I were to put the same questions to you today as I
21 did during proofing and when we were preparing this statement, after
22 having taken the solemn declaration in court today, would your answers be
23 the same as the content of this statement?
24 A. Yes, it would be identical.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please
2 have Mr. Andan's statement admitted into evidence. It is marked
3 65 ter 1D01602.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I see two redactions in paragraph 12
5 and the Chamber is not used to receive statements with redactions. Now,
6 I can imagine that you want to explain that not in open session, that's
7 fine, but if we need to go into private session we -- we'd hear from you.
8 But could you please explain.
9 Ms. Bibles.
10 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I may be able to assist in this matter.
11 The two redactions -- there is two redactions and yet a third point in
12 that paragraph where the witness's -- where the individual's name is
13 listed in the paragraph, Mr. Zulic. We have been in touch with Mr. Zulic
14 and he's advised that he would not require protective measures or
15 redactions of the statement. His name is reflected in the paragraph but
16 somewhat interestingly redacted [overlapping speakers] --
17 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's all fine that you redact statements for the
18 public, but for the Chamber not to know what is redacted is not what I
19 expect. So this is the public version. And are you going to upload a
20 version that should be admitted into evidence under seal, Mr. Stojanovic?
21 Then we'll mark this version for identification and once the original
22 version is uploaded, then we'll -- we'll then -- no, this one, of course,
23 is not even marked for identification. We only need the unredacted one
24 to be -- but we'll wait for you to upload it into the e-court system. If
25 you would tell us, then we'll decide on admission, but as matters stand
1 now there is -- the Chamber will admit the full version.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Agreed.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. With your leave, I
5 would like to read out a brief summary of the statement of Mr. Andan.
6 Witness Dragomir Andan spent most of his professional career in
7 the police. When the war broke out, he was senior inspector first class
8 in the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina. In June 1992, he was sent to carry out
9 special tasks in order to deal with paramilitary formations in Brcko,
10 Bijeljina, and Zvornik, which he carried out in co-operation with the
11 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
12 From September 1992, he took a number of duties in the
13 65th Protection Regiment of the Main Staff of the Army of
14 Republika Srpska, where he stayed until September 1993 when he was
15 transferred to the administration for intelligence and security of the
16 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. He took part in several
17 military actions together with his unit, and he had the opportunity of
18 meeting General Mladic several times and carrying out his direct orders.
19 In his statement he speaks about how a senior police official was
20 taken prisoner in Trnovo and he speaks about the personal attitude of
21 General Mladic towards the status of this prisoner. As for another event
22 which took place towards the end of 1993, when the VRS took prisoner
23 several members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, at that moment
24 General Mladic showed up in person and personally issued orders to send
25 the POWs to the KP Dom Kula. And in accordance with rules on how POWs
1 should be treated, he said that they should be exchanged, which was
2 indeed done.
3 The witness confirms that all units of the Main Staff of the Army
4 of Republika Srpska always had strict orders to treat POWs in accordance
5 with the Geneva Conventions. In the many military operations of which he
6 had the opportunity of being close to General Mladic, he never heard an
7 order that would have been against the Geneva Conventions, the rules and
8 customs of war.
9 Your Honour, I would like to just put a few more questions to the
10 witness with your leave.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Stojanovic.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Andan, could you please tell the Court when you had the
14 opportunity of meeting General Mladic directly during the war? When did
15 that happen for the first time?
16 A. I first saw General Ratko Mladic in July 1992.
17 Q. Can you tell the Court where this took place?
18 A. If you allow me, I would like to make a brief introduction, if
19 that would be in line with my testimony in general.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No. You may answer the questions that
21 Mr. Stojanovic puts to you, and if at the very end you think that an
22 important matter has been missing, then you have an opportunity to
23 correct that. But please focus on the questions that are put to you and
24 answer them.
25 The question was when -- can you tell the Court where you met him
1 in July 1992 when you first saw him.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Orie, this question requires a
3 lengthier answer. It is within this question. I will try to be brief.
4 JUDGE ORIE: If you first tell him where you saw him for the
5 first time in July 1992. If Mr. Stojanovic has any follow-up questions,
6 he'll ask them. But please give an answer to that question.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Together with Mico Davidovic, who
8 worked with me in Bijeljina, and we planned to carry out this operation
9 in Zvornik, I saw --
10 JUDGE ORIE: No -- Mr. Witness --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- General Mladic at the
12 Main Staff --
13 JUDGE ORIE: No. The simple question was where. Not with whom,
14 nothing else. Where did you see him for the first time? When for the
15 first time he appeared before your eyes. Please proceed and answer the
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I first saw him in July 1992 at the
18 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska in Han Pijesak.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Thank you. And now I'm going to ask you to tell the Court what
21 the reason was. What was the reason for you to be at the Main Staff of
22 the Army of Republika Srpska?
23 A. After quite a few operative activities in the municipality of
24 Zvornik and after having collected some intelligence, we came to the
25 conclusion that the paramilitary formation of the Yellow Wasps should be
1 eliminated. Our assessment was that the number of personnel that we had
2 at that point in time, which was minimal, was such that we could not
3 oppose a well-armed unit consisting of 120 men at the time. We did not
4 know whether they belonged to the army, and Mr. Davidovic and I had a
5 proposal to go to the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and to
6 seek assistance from the intelligence people of the Main Staff of the
7 Army of Republika Srpska.
8 Before that, Mr. Davidovic had reached a specific agreement with
9 Mr. Salapura, and then the two of us went together to the Main Staff of
10 the Army of Republika Srpska to spell out in concrete terms what we had
11 precisely agreed upon before that.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
13 slow down when speaking. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please slow down because otherwise some of
15 your words might be lost and we would like to hear them all.
16 And could you make a small pause, Mr. Stojanovic, before putting
17 the next question.
18 And could you make a little pause when -- before answering the
20 THE WITNESS: Okay.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. On that occasion, did you make a plan of activity together with
24 the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska in relation to the
25 disarming of paramilitaries in Zvornik?
1 A. [Interpretation] Yes. We drew up our part of the plan. In
2 agreement with representatives of the military security branch, we were
3 supposed to work together on that plan to see to what extent they would
4 be participating in that operation.
5 Q. Did you meet General Mladic on that occasion in person -- person
6 on person, and what did you discuss?
7 A. Yes. At some point General Mladic entered the room where we were
8 discussing our activities. He greeted us. And what I remember
9 particularly was that when he shook our hands, he said, "Welcome to the
10 club of honest men." Then he sat down and asked the two of us to brief
11 him on the situation in the area that we covered operationally, which was
12 Bijeljina, Zvornik, and Brcko.
13 When we finished our presentation, he said that it was -- our
14 greatest problem all over Republika Srpska was the fight against
15 paramilitary formations and that we are unable to stabilise our
16 confrontation line with the enemy until we have dealt with our
17 paramilitary formations whose basic and only goal was to plunder and
18 expel innocent Muslim civilians from the municipalities controlled by the
19 Serb authorities.
20 Q. Please allow me to interject and put a question, for the record
21 as well. With the exception of General Mladic, General Davidovic, and
22 yourself, were there any other military personnel there?
23 A. Yes, Colonel Salapura was there and the then
24 Colonel Zdravko Tolimir.
25 Q. Did General Mladic tell you anything else on that occasion?
1 A. He did say something that stayed with me for the rest of the war.
2 He turned to the two of us and he said -- let me try to quote him
3 exactly, he said that this was the most difficult war after the
4 Second World War because of its nature and goals. He said that it was --
5 the most difficult the thing to do is to wage war against an enemy who
6 speaks the same language and that it was a kind of civil war. He also
7 said that what we needed to know was that we were not alone in that war.
8 We all stopped for a few moments and then he continued. He said,
9 "You must be aware that the entire world is following what we are doing
10 here. You have to bear in mind that all people in your territory who are
11 of Muslim or Croat ethnicity and who have not transgressed against the
12 Serbian people must be protected. You need to bear in mind the
13 Geneva Conventions and that it is also applied by everyone in
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina and those monitoring the developments there."
15 Q. Thank you. I paused for the record. Given your professional
16 career and your warpath, I wanted to ask you this: During the war, did
17 you have occasion to see whether General Mladic abided by his words at
18 any time?
19 A. I believe I mentioned that in my statement. On several occasions
20 I know he asked that the prisoners be put on a list, handed over to the
21 military police, placed in gaol, and then exchanged for the same number
22 of people of Serb ethnicity held by the Muslim side.
23 Q. Thank you. While you were engaged on intelligence tasks in the
24 area of Sarajevo, did you have specific tasks received from
25 General Mladic at any point in time concerning certain people?
1 A. Yes. It is something I will remember for the rest of my life.
2 In 1995, maybe 15, 20, or 30 days after the signing of the
3 Dayton Accords, I received information from my operatives to the extent
4 that in Grbavica, which was an area covered by the VRS, that
5 Christiane Amanpour was there, the CNN journalist, with her crew,
6 interviewing military personnel and civilians there. I informed the
7 assistant commander for intelligence and security in the SRK,
8 Mr. Marko Lugonja, of that. I told him that there was a person of that
9 profile in Grbavica.
10 Quarter of an hour later Marko called me and, to use military
11 parlance, he said that the boss ordered, and there he meant
12 General Mladic, that I go down to Grbavica immediately in order to
13 provide a secure environment for Ms. Amanpour, as he said, not a hair on
14 her head was to be touched and she must leave Grbavica safely.
15 My office was some 500 metres away from the centre of Grbavica,
16 where she was. I left with several soldiers and I saw that some
17 suspicious people were creating a circle around Ms. Amanpour. To be
18 completely honest, Slavko Aleksic's Chetniks were the most active in that
19 and they started insulting verbally --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles.
21 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, although I've allowed it to continue
22 for some time, all of this is new material which was not noticed to the
23 Prosecution at any point. I would object --
24 JUDGE ORIE: I wouldn't say all of it but --
25 MS. BIBLES: Almost all of it. The statement, the meeting with
1 Mladic in July of 1992, what Mladic had to say to the witness in 1992 --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, Ms. Bibles objects against going
3 beyond what is presented in the statement.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is part of
5 item 8 of this witness's statement, but now the witness is being more
6 specific as to the topic he discussed there in terms of what tasks he was
7 engaged in while being a part of the Main Staff of the VRS.
8 JUDGE ORIE: If you interpret paragraph 8 in this way,
9 Mr. Stojanovic, there is no limit whatsoever to your examination.
10 Certainly, I did not feel that a protection after the Dayton Agreement of
11 journalists traveling around was an issue which is covered by
12 paragraph 8. It's so vague that it doesn't even say within the war.
13 Would you please focus on the most relevant issues and preferably
14 closely linked to what we find in the statement.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I shall do so, Your Honour.
17 Q. Witness, what year was that specifically?
18 A. 1995.
19 Q. Let me conclude this topic. Did you indeed carry out
20 General Mladic's order as regards Ms. Amanpour?
21 A. Yes, I let her out of that group, provided her with a brief
22 interview, and she safely went to the federation part of Sarajevo.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we next see
25 P3802. Page 1 first.
1 Q. Sir, it is a report drafted by the Main Staff of the VRS. The
2 date is the 28th of July, 1992.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Next, can we have the last page
4 in both versions, where reference is made to an analysis of paramilitary
5 formations in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The document was signed by the chief
6 of the intelligence and security administration of the VRS Main Staff,
7 Zdravko Tolimir.
8 Q. It reads:
9 "The presence and activity of paramilitary formations negatively
10 affect the Serbian people in two ways: (1) by diminishing trust in the
11 government and its capacity to deal with war profiteers, criminals, and
12 mass murderers; and (2), by immensely discouraging the fighting elan of
13 SRBH Army members, often resulting in the abandonment of positions."
14 In conclusion, the document reads:
15 "Every armed Serb in SRBH must be placed under the exclusive
16 command of the SRBH Army, or else he should be disarmed and legal
17 measures taken."
18 My question is this: Throughout the years of war and your
19 efforts to deal with paramilitary formations, was this the position of
20 the Main Staff of the VRS as specified in 1992? Was it seen through
21 until the end of the war?
22 A. Yes, it was in place until the end of the war in 1995.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Andan. I conclude my questions and I hand you
24 over to the Prosecution. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
1 Ms. Bibles, are you ready?
2 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Andan, you'll now be cross-examined by
4 Ms. Bibles. You'll find her to your right. Ms. Bibles is counsel for
5 the Prosecution.
6 You may proceed, Ms. Bibles.
7 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examination by Ms. Bibles:
9 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Andan.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. Mr. Andan, this is your third time testifying at ICTY. As I
12 understand it, you testified for seven days during 2011 in the case of
13 Stanisic/Zupljanin. And then when you testified in the Karadzic case,
14 were you aware that much of your Stanisic/Zupljanin was used as your
15 substantive testimony there?
16 A. Yes, I was notified.
17 Q. And today, as you understand it, your substantive testimony is
18 the 20-paragraph statement that you've signed for the Mladic Defence?
19 A. Yes, that is the case.
20 Q. I noticed that you do not appear to have a copy of that statement
21 with you. Would you like to have a copy as you're cross-examined? We
22 can provide one.
23 A. Please do.
24 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, if we could have the usher's
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's a clean copy, I take it --
2 MS. BIBLES: It is, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- in -- in B/C/S.
4 MS. BIBLES: In B/C/S.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, do you want to see it? You may give
6 it to the witness.
7 MS. BIBLES:
8 Q. Mr. Andan, because your experience, knowledge, in previous
9 testimony covers additional details relevant to this case not fully
10 captured in this statement, I'll be asking in a focused manner some of
11 the additional details behind the 20 paragraphs. I have some questions
12 first regarding your personal knowledge of Serbs setting up barricades in
13 Sarajevo in March of 1992. You've previously testified that you weren't
14 personally involved but that you were called in to two different events
15 in which Serbs were involved in setting up barricades. Do you stand by
16 that evidence today?
17 A. Please be more specific.
18 Q. You previously testified in Stanisic/Zupljanin, the transcript
19 reference would be 21586, lines 6 through 20:
20 "I cannot speak about things I haven't had personal involvement
21 in, but there were two events when we were called up to come to the MUP
22 and we learned that night that the Serbs were setting up barricades, that
23 they wanted to separate Sarajevo or divide it into two parts. And the
24 second event was when I went with Mr. Music, my colleague, to his house,
25 where I saw a lot of armed men, but at that point in time and not even
1 later, I have to say, did I realise that they were actually erecting
2 barricades. I did see armed men. They were leaving their homes with
3 long-barreled weapons. But at that point in time I wasn't aware that
4 they were setting up barricades."
5 Do you stand by that testimony?
6 A. I can confirm most of that testimony. I think in the latter part
7 it didn't concern the setting up of barricades, when I went there with
8 Mr. Music. As for the initial part, I decidedly said that as the senior
9 inspector first class and a member of the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
10 during the night we were called by the operations duty officer - and when
11 I say "we," all of us active-duty inspectors - to come to the republican
12 MUP. After a while, they told us that Serbs were erecting barricades in
13 Vrbanja Most and in the direction of Pofalici. They also told us that we
14 should be on the ready, those of us in the republican MUP. That is what
15 I said and that is what I stand by.
16 It is same event, Madam Prosecutor, because while waiting,
17 although we were not addressed by any superiors, Mr. Teufik Music and
18 myself set out at around 5 a.m. towards Bascarsija. He hails from there,
19 and I was the chief of police there for four years. We went there to buy
20 some bread so that we have something to eat. Then Teufik asked me to
21 accompany him to Vratnik, which is in Stari Grad municipality,
22 immediately next to Bascarsija. Then I saw those armed men leaving
23 homes. They were Muslim.
24 Previously, when we reached the city council building, we were
25 stopped by a group of reserve policemen --
1 Q. Mr. Andan, I will ask you to be as focused as possible. I'll try
2 to ask very focused questions to make that easier for you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, before we continue.
4 Witness, you said in the beginning of your last answer:
5 "I can confirm most of that testimony. As for the rest of it, I
6 respectively said that as the senior" -- and let me just see. Yes. "I
7 think in the latter part it didn't concern the setting up of barricades,
8 when I went there with Mr. Music."
9 Now, do you say: I didn't say this about the barricades when I
10 testified, in which case we'll just verify the words you have spoken. Or
11 do you say: What I said at that time was unclear or not accurate or --
12 and you are changing it? Which of the two?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understood the Prosecutor as
14 saying that there were two types of barricades. I'm not disputing that
15 Serbs set up barricades at the time.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing Madam Prosecutor did was to quote,
17 literally, what is recorded as your previous testimony. Now if you say:
18 "As for the rest of it" -- no, no -- yes, "I respectively said that as
19 the senior inspector" -- no, let me see. "I think in the latter part it
20 didn't concern the setting up of barricades ..."
21 Do you want to say: That's not what I said, as you read it to
22 me? Or do you say: That's what I said but it was different? Which of
23 the two?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say that because that
25 evening Muslims did not put up barricades. The Serbs put up barricades.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Whether you said it or not, you're saying the record
2 of what you said in that other case is wrong. We'll then verify that,
3 because the audio files are still existing and we'll just verify on the
4 audio whether that is what you said or that you didn't say it. So
5 therefore you say what Ms. Bibles read to you, and she reads from the
6 official record, is not accurate, it doesn't reflect what I said. Do you
7 understand your testimony well?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, I'm going back to the second
9 part. The first part that the Prosecutor --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Witness --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- read is all right. As for the
12 other part --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, it's a simple question. What Ms. Bibles
14 read, do you challenge or do you dispute that that's what you said or do
15 you say: No, that's what I said but it's -- I should clarify or change
16 or whatever, it's not accurate. Which of the two? Did you -- what was
17 read to you, did you say it in court at that time?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say it like that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let's clarify it.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We'll verify what you said and how you said it and
22 we might -- Ms. Bibles, you're invited to, with the assistance of -- I
23 never know whether it's CMSS or the -- but to find the audio of that
24 portion of the evidence so that it can be played to the witness. Please
1 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Mr. Andan, would you agree of these individuals who were setting
3 up barricades on the Serb side, that Momcilo Mandic was one of these
5 A. I would agree, yes.
6 Q. Would you agree that you have personal knowledge of his
7 involvement in setting up barricades on the Serb side?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you confirm that Mandic was with the police at that point in
11 A. Yes, he was assistant minister for crime.
12 Q. I next want to ask you about your reaction to the 31st March 1992
13 order that was sent out by Mandic setting up the creation of the Serbian
15 MS. BIBLES: And, Your Honours, I won't pull it up but this is in
16 evidence as P3009.
17 Q. Mr. Andan, you took this order from Mandic to a Sarajevo
18 television station. Can you tell us, as briefly as possible, why?
19 A. I think that the translation was not correct. The order was last
20 issued by Mladic, as it was translated to me in the first sentence. But
21 the order -- or, actually, the dispatch was signed by Mr. Mandic.
22 It is correct that I took the dispatch and took it to a
23 journalist from Radio Television Bosnia-Herzegovina as an expression of
24 revolt in relation to an order like that and the breakup of the integrity
25 of the Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP. And it's correct that I did give that
1 dispatch to the reporter.
2 Q. And it's true that you were opposed to dividing the police based
3 on ethnicity?
4 A. Correct, yes, especially in view of the fact who were supposed to
5 be the future leading figures of the police who wouldn't even know how to
6 be at the head of the police service properly.
7 Q. And do I understand correctly that you refused initially in April
8 and May to join the Serbian police?
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. Can you confirm that you were both encouraged by some and
11 threatened by others about your decision in April and May of 1992?
12 A. It depends on the point of view. I was in the part of the
13 Sarajevo that was still undivided. A number of my Muslim colleagues
14 encouraged me and a number of Serbs with -- actually, about whom I tried
15 to see who they were, where they stand, during the night they threatened
16 me a couple of times and said that I should declare myself to be on the
17 Serbian side. And because if I did not, something nasty would happen to
18 me and they wouldn't be able to help me there.
19 Q. Without going into further details, did you eventually join the
20 Serbian police by the 1st of June, 1992?
21 A. I did, yes. I don't know the precise date but I did join the
22 police, yes.
23 Q. When the Serbian MUP was formed, is it correct that -- well, the
24 minister of the interior was Mico Stanisic. Was his deputy initially
25 Momcilo Mandic?
1 A. I think so, yes.
2 Q. As an inspector in the Serbian MUP, did you have a chain of
3 command that culminated in Mico Stanisic?
4 A. Yes, that's the hierarchical chain where the minister is the
5 number one person of the MUP.
6 Q. And in finishing this topic, I just want to ask whether the
7 Serbian MUP had the authority, the legal authority to arrest active-duty
8 VRS personnel?
9 A. Look, they could not arrest them from a formal legal aspect, but
10 we did receive permission from the Main Staff that all those involved in
11 illicit activities, regardless of whether they were soldiers or officers
12 of the Army of Republika Srpska, were to be arrested and handed over to
13 the police.
14 Q. We'll discuss some of those details later in your testimony.
15 Next I would like to turn to some questions about your time in Brcko and
16 Bijeljina from June to September of 1992.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, you are encouraged to show at least,
18 even if you do not go into the details of a document, to at least -- in
19 this case it was P3009, but to have it on the screen so that the Judges
20 can at least read, even if you do not work on it in detail.
21 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour. I appreciate the advice in
22 that regard and I'll do so.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
24 MS. BIBLES:
25 Q. In paragraph 5 of your statement, you describe being sent to
1 Brcko due to "problems that piled up in the presence of paramilitary
3 You were assigned to go to Brcko as an inspector. How long were
4 you actually in Brcko as an inspector?
5 A. Two weeks at the most from what I can remember. Possibly three,
6 but it was definitely not longer than three.
7 Q. You may not recall the exact date but did you arrive some time in
8 early June 1992?
9 A. I have a problem with dates. Please, don't take it ill. But I
10 think it was in June. I'm not sure. I don't think that it was in early
11 June. I think it was probably in the second half of June, but please,
12 I -- don't ask me to give you the precise dates.
13 Q. Whichever date it was, could you tell us whether law and order
14 was present in Brcko when you arrived and -- and functioning in Brcko?
15 A. Absolutely not.
16 Q. Would you agree that there were no Muslim or Croat police
17 officers remaining in Brcko when you arrived?
18 A. Yes, that's true. There were none left.
19 Q. Is it true that the issue of looting and plunder committed by the
20 paramilitaries was a major concern in Brcko when you arrived?
21 A. Yes, that is correct, and that is the reason why I was sent to
23 Q. And is it true that Brcko is a rich area that has a port that
24 brings items into the area, which is what enticed criminals to come loot
25 and steal property in the Brcko area?
1 A. Brcko was one of the most developed municipalities in
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina before the war, one of the richest municipalities, and
3 that was the reason why paramilitary formations from all around the
4 country first wanted to go to Brcko.
5 Q. Is it true that you basically stayed and lived inside the public
6 security station during your time in Brcko?
7 A. Yes, I slept on the floor above the duty operations room in a
8 room that had just improvised facilities.
9 Q. Would you agree that this was in part because Brcko was a
10 dangerous place to be?
11 A. It was a very dangerous place indeed.
12 Q. Is it fair to say that your assignment in Brcko was to make
13 observations about the situation and form recommendations as to how to
14 make the police function?
15 A. Yes. It's in my job description, instructional monitoring, where
16 I would observe the situation and propose measures in order to deal with
17 the situation found on the ground.
18 Q. Without going into details, at the end of your time there you
19 made recommendations like imposing curfews, setting up check-points, and
20 restoring manpower to the police?
21 A. Yes, it was difficult work but what we did, what was of key
22 importance for the town of Brcko at the time, was that we managed to
23 bring back policemen who were at the front lines through the military
24 department. We introduced curfew, divided the area into sections, set up
25 check-points. And I think except for the segment of when paramilitaries
1 entered the police station and took driver's licences and so on, we
2 managed to prevent that --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to slow down
4 and repeat the last part of his answer.
5 MS. BIBLES:
6 Q. Mr. Andan --
7 MS. BIBLES: I'm sorry.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You are again invited to slow down your speed
9 of speech and could you repeat the last part of your answer. What we
10 have on the record now is:
11 "... and so on, we managed to prevent that ..."
12 And what did you say after those words?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the problem was that
14 the paramilitary formations would enter the Brcko police station where
15 they would take different documents, driver's licences, licence plates,
16 and we prevented that by forbidding them to enter. We had a very serious
17 clash with those paramilitary formations at that time, and then after
18 that, the security situation began to function in the Brcko area up to
19 the point that we had things under control there.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's not a literal repetition of what you said
21 because it's five times as long as the words you spoke, but we leave it
22 to that.
23 Ms. Bibles, I'm just wondering. We could take a break now. We
24 could also take a break after the full hour, which would be in five
25 minutes. I leave it to you where to find a suitable moment for a break.
1 MS. BIBLES: I think five more minutes might work, Your Honour,
2 if that's fine. I look over to the other side and they don't seem to
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we continue for another five minutes and
5 then take a break.
6 Please proceed.
7 MS. BIBLES:
8 Q. Mr. Andan, did you consult with the VRS military about many of
9 these areas that you've just described at length?
10 A. If you're thinking of Brcko specifically, we did have several
11 meetings there. I had several meetings there with officers of the
12 Army of Republika Srpska. If you're thinking in general, then there were
13 agreements at a higher level about the presence of paramilitary
14 formations in the area of Brcko, Bijeljina, and Zvornik.
15 Q. I just want to confirm that as a police -- an individual
16 representing the police, that you had a co-operative relationship with
17 the local VRS military.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In Brcko, did you hear about an individual by the name of
20 Goran Jelisic, who is also known as Adolf?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were you told that he murdered dozens of Muslim citizens in
24 A. No, I wasn't told that, but I found out about it later.
25 Q. Did you find out later that he committed these offences near the
1 police station while wearing a police uniform?
2 A. I did learn that later, yes.
3 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, this may be a good time to take that
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then could the witness first be escorted out of the
7 We take a break of 20 minutes. We'd like to see you back,
8 Mr. Andan.
9 Meanwhile, I use the opportunity to --
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- deal with 1D1602a, being the unredacted statement
12 of the witness as uploaded now.
13 Madam Registrar, that document would receive number?
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1602a receives number D512,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And D512 is admitted into evidence.
17 We take a break and will resume at quarter to 2.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 1.23 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 1.45 p.m.
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, you may proceed.
22 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. Mr. Andan, going back to your time in June 1992 in Brcko, you've
24 previously testified that you were aware that Muslim civilians were being
25 taken and held in Luka camp. Do you stand by that previous testimony?
1 A. Yes, but it was later on that I found out about that stay. I
2 mean, it was after that that I found out that they had been held in Luka.
3 Q. When you later found out, was it also your understanding that the
4 VRS had control over Luka camp?
5 A. Yes, because - how do I put this? - this camp -- this -- actually
6 not a single camp, not a single collection centre, if I were to call them
7 that, was under MUP control at the time.
8 Q. While you were consulting with the local VRS authorities about
9 curfews and that sort of thing, did you meet a VRS officer named Sehovac?
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Before --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I might just intervene. At page 75, line 20,
13 Madam Bibles, you asked:
14 "When you later found out, was it also your understanding that
15 the VRS had control over Luka camp?"
16 The answer says:
17 "Yes, because - how do I put it ..."
18 And then he says it was under the control of the MUP. Now, yes,
19 under the control of the VRS and then under control of the MUP? I'm not
20 quite sure what is the answer.
21 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour, I believe that may be an
22 error in the transcript. I'll go back to that.
23 Q. Mr. Andan, in reading the transcript, it appears that you
24 testified that -- wait, "not a single camp, not a single collection
25 centre, if I were to call them that, was under MUP control." Could you
1 clarify for us who had control of those types of centres at this point in
2 time in June of 1992?
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was it the VRS or the MUP?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You will allow me. We received
5 this question from the Ministry of the Interior to respond what it was
6 that the ministry had under their control in the month of June. We, or,
7 rather, I personally sent that dispatch to the commander of the
8 Eastern Bosnia Corps and I said that the MUP is not holding a single camp
9 under its control and that they should respond to that. And when I
10 testified for Mr. Stanisic and Karadzic, I said that as well.
11 MS. BIBLES:
12 Q. So to make sure that we understand, the reason that you sent that
13 dispatch to the Eastern Bosnia Corps was that that camp was under VRS
15 A. Globally, yes.
16 Q. Would that also be true for the camps within the confines of the
17 Eastern Bosnia Corps?
18 A. Well, I don't know about all, but I claim unambiguously that camp
19 Batkovic was under the control of the army.
20 Q. All right. Going back to a question you answered before, were
21 you aware that Sehovac was the chief of staff of the brigade?
22 A. Yes, that's how I met him. At the Brcko barracks.
23 Q. Were you aware that he ordered a Muslim prisoner killed at a fire
24 station in Brcko?
25 A. No, I didn't know that.
1 Q. Mr. Andan, when we look at paragraph 6 of your statement, you
2 describe in reference to your departure, it appears your departure from
4 "After the situation, the police station had been stabilised."
5 Now to make sure that we understand this statement in context,
6 you don't mean at that point where you left Brcko that it was now safe
7 for Muslims and Croats, do you?
8 A. At that moment while I was there, I can say that, yes, no one
9 persecuted them anymore. They were not brought in. Their apartments
10 were not looted. They were not being expelled. As for that period, was
11 it two weeks, was it three weeks, I claim that they were safe.
12 Q. Did you mean that the paramilitaries were under control when you
13 left Brcko in June of 1992?
14 A. Members of the paramilitary formations were placed under control
15 in this period of three weeks, if I can put it that way, for as long as I
16 was in Brcko. After that, there was another escalation and certain --
17 certain unlawful things were done by the paramilitary formations and then
18 we came to intervene yet again in Brcko.
19 Q. You would agree that -- perhaps you wouldn't, but you would agree
20 that the paramilitaries that went on to be active in Brcko after that
21 time were the Red Berets and Arkan's Men?
22 A. Yes, yes. More of them were the Red Berets of Captain Dragan and
23 less were the men that belonged to Arkan.
24 Q. Following your time in Brcko, you were directed to go to
25 Bijeljina. Can you tell us what your position was there?
1 A. Again, don't hold me to the dates, but I know that I was called
2 by Mr. Cedo Kljajic, the undersecretary for public security, he asked me
3 to come into Brcko -- no, sorry, Bijeljina. Bijeljina. When I arrived
4 in Bijeljina, I saw Mr. Kljajic and then I met Mr. Davidovic. Even then
5 I was a senior inspector first class of the MUP of Republika Srpska, and
6 further on, I was promoted to acting chief of the security services
7 centre in Bijeljina.
8 Q. Did you work with Mr. Davidovic during your time in Bijeljina?
9 A. Yes, we were part of a team that, let me put it this way, perhaps
10 I'm showing off a bit now, but we very successfully carried out our
11 missions on the ground and we improved the situation in the municipality
12 of Bijeljina.
13 Q. And to make -- put this into context, this was after the
14 April 1992 ethnic cleansing of Bijeljina?
15 A. Yes. I came to Bijeljina in July 1992, and then, together with
16 Davidovic, I created a joint team to struggle against paramilitaries,
17 crime, against the expulsion of Muslims, and against ethnic cleansing.
18 Q. Can you confirm, though, that the population, and I believe the
19 quote previously used, "the population did move out" of Bijeljina prior
20 to your arrival?
21 A. I can confirm that a significant part of the population had moved
22 out. At that moment when Mr. Davidovic and I started working together,
23 there were some Muslim families that were still living in Bijeljina
24 because the villages around Bijeljina are Serb villages, with the
25 exception of Janja.
1 Q. In fact, could you clarify or confirm that you and your family
2 were provided a Bosniak house in which to live while you were living in
4 A. Yes, the commission of the municipality of Bijeljina allocated
5 that house to me. It was the house of some Bosniak who did not live
6 there. He lived and worked abroad and the house was empty.
7 Q. And you testified a few minutes ago about Batkovic camp under the
8 VRS control. That was located in Bijeljina?
9 A. Yes, on the outskirts of Bijeljina, towards the Sava River.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one clarifying question.
11 You said:
12 "It was the house of some Bosniak who did not live there. He
13 lived and worked abroad and the house was empty."
14 Now, did the owner live abroad or did the whole of his family
15 live abroad, to your knowledge? If you know.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His entire family lived in Germany,
17 and he built the house probably with the plan of returning to Bijeljina
18 someday. It was not an empty house all together. There was furniture.
19 It was a fully furnished house.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it was not that, for example, parts of his
21 family had lived there up until the beginning of the war and had then
22 moved out? Because if there is furniture, you wonder who used that
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The owner used it when he came on
25 vacation. I think vacation periods were the only times he used the
1 house. As for his immediate family, unless I'm mistaken, there were no
2 immediate family members of his in the house. His wife, himself, and
3 their children used the house when they came on vacation.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That therefore means that the children were living
5 in Germany as well, not going to school in Bijeljina but steadily living,
6 apart from holidays, in Germany. Is that how I have to understand your
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Amir Fidahic, my neighbour, told me
9 so. He was there throughout the war and he told me where the family was.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you have no personal knowledge about it apart
11 from what you heard from your neighbour?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.
14 MS. BIBLES: That's actually the next area of questioning I
15 wanted to go into.
16 Q. Your neighbour, Avdo Vidovic, is that the one you're talking
18 A. No, Amir Fidahic. Anto Vidovic is a Croat and I managed to get
19 him out of Batkovic camp.
20 Q. No, let's talk about Mr. Vidovic then. He was a Croat who -- did
21 you know him prior to coming to Bijeljina?
22 A. Yes. He was a neighbour of mine in Sarajevo, in the settlement
23 of Stup, where I grew up. We began playing football together and he left
24 Sarajevo for Brcko to play there. That's how we met after nearly
25 30 years again.
1 Q. Would you agree that he was not a criminal?
2 A. Absolutely not. He was not.
3 Q. When did you learn that he was being held at Batkovic?
4 A. I think Mr. Davidovic and I began preparing again to deal once
5 and for all with paramilitary formations, especially the Red Berets in
6 Brcko. We had a discussion with the chief of police, the head of police,
7 and the head of the crime department. I asked the head of the crime
8 department, then, whether he knew of Anto Vidovic's whereabouts. The
9 head of the crime department goes -- his last name is Gavrilovic. He
10 just shrugged his shoulders and he told me that he was in Batkovic camp.
11 I asked him whether there are any grounds to suspect his activity save
12 for the fact that he was a Croat. He said that they had nothing to that
13 effect. They even said that his wife is Serbian and that they are not
14 aware of any reason as to why he was taken to the camp.
15 Q. Is it true that you believe that he was being held simply because
16 he was a Croat?
17 A. There were no other arguments. He had not committed any crime,
18 he was not a criminal, he was a prominent athlete in the town. I
19 couldn't find any other reason or explanation at the time.
20 Q. Did you act to get him released?
21 A. Yes. Since we co-operated well with the SRK commander, to put it
22 in military terms, we attended briefings basically every evening in the
23 RSK. I asked personally the then commander, Colonel Ilic, to release
24 him. I explained the situation, asking that the man be released.
25 Perhaps a day or two later, while I was in the field, it was late
1 in the evening when I was informed that a certain man was waiting for me
2 in the Bijeljina police station and that he has been there the whole day.
3 When I arrived, I entered a room holding equipment for the police, and
4 there I saw Anto Vidovic sleeping on a bench. I took him to the house
5 where I stayed, and since it was curfew, it was very risky to take him to
6 Brcko. That's why he spent the night at my house.
7 The next day I put him in my car, went to the Brcko police
8 station, and told them that they were accountable for his life and
9 safety. I told them he was a good car mechanic and that they should use
10 him to that end because many vehicles broke down. That is how
11 Mr. Vidovic survived the war, and after the war he went to America.
12 Q. Did you in these meetings that you had with the military
13 officials -- and I believe you said you had them every day? Just to
14 clarify that.
15 A. Evenings.
16 Q. Did you ever hear at one of those meetings that a specific person
17 be taken from the community into Batkovic at those meetings?
18 A. No, I never heard anything of the sort.
19 Q. Now moving on to talk about paragraph 6 with respect to the
20 Yellow Wasps. In that paragraph you describe the struggle - I believe
21 the word is "struggle" - against the Yellow Wasps. Your quote is:
22 "Working together in co-operation with the VRS Main Staff with
23 representatives of the VRS and military intelligence service, we
24 participated in the joint planning and execution of an operation to
25 arrest the Yellow Wasps, take them into MUP custody, and hand them over
1 to the prosecutor's office in Bijeljina."
2 And I'll just pause. I just saw you looking up. Did you have a
4 A. No, no concern. I was just trying to see what time it was, if I
6 JUDGE ORIE: We are close to the conclusion of this day, Witness,
7 but you have to stay for another seven minutes. Today, my colleague
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not a problem.
10 MS. BIBLES:
11 Q. And is it true that the Yellow Wasps were in Zvornik?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. Was this also a more prosperous municipality in the region?
14 A. One of the more prosperous municipalities. One could say so.
15 Q. And I believe you've already testified but I want to make sure
16 that you said your work against the paramilitaries was focused on crimes
17 of looting and plunder; is that accurate?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. And you previously testified that in this area:
20 "I believe that these were the most serious crimes at the time."
21 In reference to [Microphone not activated] -- is that true?
22 A. It is.
23 Q. And in that same line, you've previously testified in answer to a
24 question about the ethnicity of victims of the Yellow Wasps:
25 "Most of them were Muslims. But in the course of this bestial
1 conduct, once they ran out of Muslim houses, they switched to robbing
2 Serb houses."
3 Do you stand by that testimony today?
4 A. I do.
5 Q. And following this thought, isn't it true that the commission of
6 offences against -- it was the commission of offences against Serbs that
7 accelerated the process of arresting the Yellow Wasps?
8 A. Well, one couldn't say so. There was much information indicating
9 that they were destabilising the combat readiness of the army from
10 Zvornik municipality and that the separation line or the line facing the
11 Muslim side was weakened precisely because they created a sense of
12 unease, and by looting, they created such a situation where people didn't
13 feel safe even at the front lines.
14 Q. So just to make sure -- to bring some clarity to this. So
15 this -- did this mean that the VRS soldiers at the front line were uneasy
16 because of the presence of the Yellow Wasps?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So the Yellow Wasps were undermining the war effort on -- they
19 were undermining the VRS efforts for the war?
20 A. Yes. And not only the Yellow Wasps but all other paramilitary
21 formations present in Republika Srpska. However, the Yellow Wasps were
22 the most pronounced. If I may, at some point they wanted to change the
23 name of Zvornik and call it Zucin Grad. That is how impertinent, how
24 brazen they were.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to be clear, is it because of this uneasiness
1 of the VRS soldiers on the front line that was the overarching reason for
2 eliminating them?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It didn't concern only the soldiers
4 but all citizens present in Zvornik at the time. Everyone felt uneasy.
5 At that point in time there were still quite a few Muslims living in
6 houses in Zvornik. That was the main reason. Families were feeling this
7 sense of unease, the Muslims families in particular, and then we had the
8 soldiers in the front line thinking: Here I am fighting the enemy and
9 someone behind my back is placing my family at risk. That is why their
10 morale dropped.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
12 MS. BIBLES:
13 Q. Is it correct that the situation with the Yellow Wasps became
14 more serious when they seized -- when they stopped and harassed
15 Velibor Ostojic?
16 A. I explained that in my previous testimony. We were already in
17 the final stages of implementing that operation. It was just a matter of
18 days when we would get the green light to do that. Perhaps a day or two
19 before we began, the incident with Mr. Velibor Ostojic happened. Some
20 Rade Tanaskovic and his paramilitaries forced him to crawl and chew grass
21 at a check-point.
22 Q. Mr. Andan, I believe it's time. The seven minutes are now up.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have one additional question. Could you
24 tell us, you said one or two days before the operation started. Could
25 you -- when did that operation start? Do you remember a date?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact date. I
2 know that it was in the second half of July. I'm quite certain. I don't
3 know the date.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was that when many or most of the Muslims had
5 already left Zvornik?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, when we concluded the
7 operation against the Yellow Wasps -- well, there is a document in
8 existence ordering the Zvornik police station to have the property seized
9 back from the Yellow Wasps to be returned to the Muslim owners in town.
10 So there were --
11 JUDGE ORIE: That wasn't my question. My question was whether by
12 the beginning of that operation many or most of the Muslims had already
13 left Zvornik.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A large number of Muslims had left.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Andan, we'll adjourn for the day. And
16 since we have a long weekend, we'll only resume on Tuesday, not on
17 Monday. But before you leave the courtroom, I want to instruct you that
18 you should not speak or communicate in whatever way with whomever about
19 your testimony, whether that is testimony you've given today or testimony
20 still to be given after the weekend because we'd like to see you back
21 Tuesday morning, 9.30 in the morning. You may follow the usher.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and will resume Tuesday, the
24 10th of June, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day
2 of June, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.