Page 22406

 1                           Tuesday, 10 June 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 8     number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             No preliminaries, therefore the witness can be escorted into the

11     courtroom.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Andan.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that you

16     are still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning

17     of your testimony.

18             Ms. Bibles will now continue her cross-examination.

19             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20                           WITNESS:  DRAGOMIR ANDAN [Resumed]

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22                           Cross-examination by Ms. Bibles:  [Continued]

23        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Andan.  When we finished --

24        A.   Good morning.

25        Q.   When we finished on Friday, you answered questions about events

Page 22407

 1     leading up to the operation against the Yellow Wasps.  Before we go back

 2     to that line of inquiry, I'd like to ask about some of the

 3     paramilitary -- other paramilitary formations which were undermining the

 4     war effort for which you had personal knowledge.  Was one of these

 5     paramilitary groups that you dealt with the Panthers led by Mauzer?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And, in fact, at one point during the summer of 1992, isn't it

 8     true that you arrested or detained Mauzer?

 9        A.   In legal terms, it would be better to say that I brought him into

10     custody and that he was remanded.

11        Q.   Is it true that his side-arm, a Heckler with a silencer, was

12     removed at this point in time?

13        A.   Yes, that's correct.

14        Q.   And would you agree that the underlying facts which led to this

15     bringing him into custody had to do with a large amount of stolen

16     property and the illegal detention of three Muslim men?

17        A.   That first time when he was brought into custody, it did not have

18     to do directly with what you referred to just now.  That first part had

19     to do with constant attacks and denying the Ministry of the Interior --

20     or, rather, not carrying out legal regulations in the municipality of

21     Bijeljina.  That's why he was brought in for the first time.

22             Whereas the second time, it was based on the intelligence that we

23     had; namely, that certain illegally obtained goods were being stored and

24     that that warehouse should be entered, that we should check what is

25     there, and at that point in time we did not know that in part of this

Page 22408

 1     cooling plant that hadn't been used at the time, that detained Muslims

 2     were actually being held there in part of it.

 3        Q.   And addressing your attention to this second time, can you

 4     describe whether it's true that the Panthers surrounded the police

 5     station with tanks and weapons?

 6        A.   That's correct.  Surrounded us because they were dissatisfied

 7     with the fact that their supporters were being brought in; that is to

 8     say, their fighters who were bringing looted goods in from the front

 9     line.  They surrounded us using all kinds of weapons, asking that we -

10     that is to say, Mr. Davidovic and I - should no longer be at the helm of

11     the security services centre in Bijeljina.

12        Q.   Do you recall roughly when this occurred?

13        A.   I think it was the month of July, before the operation in

14     Zvornik.

15        Q.   Can you confirm that once the police station was surrounded, you

16     were in that situation, that an agreement was reached in which Mauzer was

17     released but his side-arm was not given back to him?

18        A.   Yes, that's right.

19        Q.   Is it your opinion, based on your experience and dealings with

20     Mauzer, that he is a criminal?

21        A.   Well, you see, I as a policeman ran a check on Mauzer.  I did not

22     find him registered in police records.  He did not have a criminal

23     record.  But all the other manifestations that were there, all of the

24     things that happened during the war lead me to ascertain the fact that he

25     took advantage of the war in order to engage in criminal activity.

Page 22409

 1        Q.   Is it true that Mauzer was never prosecuted for offences that he

 2     and his men committed in 1992?

 3        A.   When the premises were searched, the ones that you referred to a

 4     moment ago, where we found the detained Muslims, a criminal report was

 5     filed.  I claim that with certainty.  And it was sent to the prosecutor's

 6     office.  Now, why it was not dealt with any further than that, I really

 7     cannot tell you.

 8        Q.   Just to make sure that we have a clear answer to the question,

 9     you would agree or is it true that he was never prosecuted for those

10     offences?

11        A.   No, he was not tried as far as I know.

12        Q.   In terms of the stolen property that was recovered, your answer

13     as to what happened to that property was addressed in the

14     Stanisic/Zupljanin trial at transcript page 21444, lines 23 and 24.  And

15     your answer was:

16             "Mauzer's unit should have been resubordinated to the VRS

17     according to the command structure and we gave these items to the army."

18             Do you stand by that answer today?

19        A.   Yes.  All the time we tried not to have Mauzer's paramilitary

20     unit in Bijeljina.  We talked to Colonel Milic several times to have him

21     placed under control.  Therefore, we called the members of the military

22     after we found what we found at the warehouse and the military police

23     took over everything that was found at that warehouse.  It wasn't really

24     a warehouse, it was a cooling plant but they used it as a warehouse.  So

25     it was handed over to the military police and an inventory was made.

Page 22410

 1        Q.   In terms of Mauzer's role with the VRS, let's go to 65 ter 1925,

 2     a commendation of the VRS dated 9 March 1995.

 3             MS. BIBLES:  If we can go -- I believe it's just a one-page -- or

 4     to the first page of the document.

 5        Q.   When the document comes up - yes, it's probably a good time to

 6     put on your glasses - I'll ask if you know what type of document this is.

 7             Mr. Andan, having been in the VRS for a number of years, are you

 8     familiar with this type of document?

 9        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with this type of document.

10        Q.   And what is it?

11        A.   If you allow me, I'm going to make a brief introduction.  I will

12     try to be as brief as possible.  In that year, in 1992, towards the end,

13     as far as I know, perhaps it was September or October, Mauzer was

14     included in the Army of Republika Srpska in the Eastern Bosnian Corps;

15     that is to say, from then onwards, it is the VRS that had control over

16     Mauzer.

17             This document speaks about his combat activities at a given point

18     in time.  I mean, he --

19        Q.   Mr. Andan --

20        A.   -- demonstrated bravery and decisiveness and --

21        Q.   -- we're getting ahead of ourselves, and I guess I should ask it

22     a different way:  You will agree that this document is a commendation

23     being given by Mr. Mladic or General Mladic at the time; is that correct?

24        A.   That's right.

25        Q.   You see in the document that the Mauzer combat group was being

Page 22411

 1     commended specifically for toughness, chivalrous and gallant conduct.

 2     Now, Mr. Andan, that does not comport with the description of the Mauzer

 3     group that you dealt with in 1992.  Does it bother you at all that a

 4     criminal like Mauzer received such high praise?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, shall we make a distinction between a

 6     person and a group to start with?  And second, if you just want to jump

 7     from 1992 to 1995 in a totally different area, perhaps don't stop the

 8     witness if he makes the bridge which you should have made.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MS. BIBLES:

11        Q.   Mr. Andan, you have given a description of what happened with

12     Mauzer or Mauzer's group as they went on, and my question was:  Even

13     acknowledging that, that there were different activities, knowing what

14     you know about Mauzer and the Panthers in 1992, did it bother you that he

15     went on to receive this kind of praise in the war?

16        A.   I view this as a commendation to the unit.  I agree with you that

17     he did not deserve this kind of commendation, but the unit as a unit did

18     deserve a commendation.

19             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I would tender 65 ter 1925.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1925 receives number P6579,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have one question for you, sir.  This group that

25     surrounded the police station with a tank, is it the same group of

Page 22412

 1     Mauzer's that was being commended in 1995?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

 5             MS. BIBLES:

 6        Q.   Next I'd like to turn and ask about your information and contacts

 7     with members of Arkan's Men.  Is it correct that in Bijeljina, in 1992,

 8     Arkan's Men unlawfully took a large quantity of weapons from the police

 9     station that had been confiscated from the Muslims?

10        A.   Not only weapons, that's true, they took all those weapons,

11     everything that suited them, they took that.  They took a large number of

12     traffic documents, driver's licenses, stamps, and other documents that

13     were blank.  So they took all of this that can be found in any legal

14     department, if you will.

15        Q.   Based upon your work in 1992, do you think that there was a link

16     between Arkan's Men and Mauzer's Panthers at that time?

17        A.   I think.  I cannot say with certainty now.  I don't think that it

18     was a link then, because I know once when Arkan visited Bijeljina that

19     some colleagues said to me that he had some kind of conflict with Mauzer

20     and that he threatened him at that point, but all of this is indirect

21     knowledge.  It's not that I know it personally.

22        Q.   Mr. Andan, obviously we've discussed your testimony in

23     Stanisic/Zupljanin.  Do you recall answering similar questions during

24     that trial?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 22413

 1        Q.   And the transcript references would be 21653, starting at line 4.

 2     You were asked the question:

 3             "And what was the relationship, if any, that you know about

 4     between Mauzer's group and Arkan's Men?  Were they in competition with

 5     each other, were they co-operating with each other?  What do you know

 6     about that?"

 7             Your answer was:

 8             "I'll begin with a short introduction, so I hope you won't mind a

 9     longer answer.

10             "At that time the Bijeljina police station was exposed to strong

11     influence by Arkan's group.  Through operative work, we learned that they

12     had unlawfully taken a large quantity of weapons, both long-barrelled and

13     short-barrelled weapons, that had been confiscated from the Muslims.

14     They were registering these weapons at the Bijeljina police station

15     without anyone interfering.  They were taking driving licences, traffic

16     permits, weapons permits from the police station, even blank forms for

17     such licences and permits.

18             "I think that there was a link between the Serb Volunteer Guard

19     commanded by Arkan, and the Panthers commanded by Ljubisa Savic, also

20     known as Mauzer.  It was my conclusion that I drew from various

21     conversations and interviews that they were in direct communication."

22             Can you tell us whether your opinion about this connection or

23     link has changed since your testimony in Stanisic and Zupljanin?

24        A.   No, it hasn't changed, but I know for sure that when the war

25     conflict broke out, there was this "love" and it went on probably until a

Page 22414

 1     moment when a conflict broke out for this or that reason.  But at any

 2     rate, at the moment when I arrived in Bijeljina, that was July, that love

 3     was not the same as it was in the beginning of the war.  So there is no

 4     change in my statement today as compared to that.

 5        Q.   Perhaps we could clear up this confusion.  Is it your answer

 6     today that there was a link between these two groups, Arkan's Men and

 7     Mauzer's Panthers?

 8        A.   There was.

 9        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  I'd next like to address how groups like

10     Arkan's Men and Mauzer's Panthers originally came to Bosnia.  Are you

11     aware that members of the Bosnian Serb leadership invited groups like

12     this into Bosnia at the beginning of the war?

13        A.   I was still in Sarajevo then when Arkan entered Bijeljina

14     together with his unit.  When three members of the Presidency,

15     Biljana Plavsic, Fikret Abdic - now, was he a member of the Presidency,

16     but he was on this delegation - and the minister of defence, a Croat,

17     when they came to Bijeljina, I know that on television then, as far as I

18     can remember, Biljana Plavsic stated that she had invited Arkan to come

19     to Bijeljina.  If I remember that period, 1992, correctly, it could have

20     even been the month of March.  So Biljana took upon herself the

21     responsibility of having Arkan invited to Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22        Q.   I'd next like to go to Zvornik which was where the Yellow Wasps

23     operation took place.  Were you aware of the expulsion of Muslims from

24     Kozluk in Zvornik?

25        A.   When intelligence was being carried out in the field, of course

Page 22415

 1     we learned about that, too.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  If we could have 65 ter 19766 on our screen, please.

 3        Q.   Mr. Andan, this is a Drina Corps command report from

 4     17 December 1992.  I'll first ask if you have seen this report before.

 5        A.   No, I haven't seen this before.

 6        Q.   I'd ask you to turn your attention to the bottom of the first

 7     page --

 8             MS. BIBLES:  And that should be in both languages.

 9        Q.   -- in the paragraph that reads:

10             "With the arrival of paramilitary organisations to the

11     Zvornik municipality, particularly the arrival of Arkan and his people,

12     this territory was liberated from the Turks.  Turks made up 60 per cent

13     of the municipality's population and it has now been cleansed and

14     replaced with an ethnically pure Serb population."

15             I first want to clarify that in this command report the word

16     "Turks" referred to Muslims; is that true?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And second, isn't it true that the actions of the paramilitaries

19     against Muslims and Croats was supported and commended by the VRS in the

20     war?

21        A.   I don't know of any such cases, but the local authorities did do

22     that.

23        Q.   Mr. Andan, wouldn't you agree that this Drina Corps document is

24     in fact noting in a positive manner that Zvornik was ethnically cleansed

25     by paramilitaries?

Page 22416

 1        A.   Yes, but it also refers to looting and taking away the property

 2     seized by paramilitary formations.

 3        Q.   So, Mr. Andan, isn't it true that the actions that were supported

 4     and commended by the VRS in this document were the actions where they

 5     were ethnically cleansing areas like Zvornik?

 6        A.   We cannot generalise as far as the VRS is concerned.  This is

 7     just a unit - I mean, a local unit - that is doing that.  I cannot say on

 8     a general level that the army had accepted that, that the Main Staff had

 9     accepted that, and that he commended that kind of conduct.  But it is

10     evident -- I mean, now, where is this here?  Which formation?  This

11     document was written, yes, and it's in the superlative, that is to say,

12     the part that refers to that cleansing of the Muslim population.

13        Q.   So, Mr. Andan, wouldn't you agree that this document sets up a

14     scenario that you saw over and over again in Bosnia, and that is the

15     paramilitaries were welcomed and praised for their actions in ethnically

16     cleansing areas, but when they became problems, it was when they were

17     looting and stealing from Serbs; isn't that true?

18        A.   I wouldn't agree with you.  From the moment when I joined the

19     Main Staff, at regular briefings concern was expressed or, rather, there

20     were efforts made to eliminate paramilitary formations from all of the

21     areas.  In my previous testimony here, I said that they had not been

22     everywhere in all the territories that were under the control of the Army

23     of Republika Srpska.  Paramilitaries chose affluent places where they

24     could loot and transfer the looted goods to Serbia and elsewhere.  That's

25     how they functioned throughout 1992, I would say.

Page 22417

 1        Q.   Mr. Andan, isn't it true that by the time you were in the VRS,

 2     which would have been September 1992, that the paramilitaries' work in

 3     those affluent regions in cleansing the area had been completed?

 4        A.   No, it wasn't completed.  My task, if I had not been transferred

 5     to the Army Republika Srpska under the circumstances that you are

 6     familiar with, would have been to go to Foca with the forces of the

 7     Ministry of the Interior, and we were to deal with the paramilitaries in

 8     Foca, Pelcer [phoen], and that siege should have spread across the

 9     territory of Republika Srpska.  In 1992, there were a lot of places where

10     there were paramilitary formations.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, you put to the witness earlier that --

12     you asked him whether this was not reflecting a scenario which you would

13     find elsewhere as well, including that the paramilitaries were welcomed,

14     but then they became a problem when they were looting and stealing from

15     Serbs.

16             Now, from the portion you read to the witness, it -- I do not see

17     that they were looting and stealing from Serbs, rather that they were

18     perhaps looting and stealing.  Could you tell us or put to the witness

19     where you found what you said this -- what this document demonstrates?

20     The witness hasn't seen it before, he told us, so it's only fair to him

21     that you read to him the portions you are implicitly referring to.

22             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.  Perhaps I was jumping ahead.  At

23     line -- transcript line 10 or page 10, lines 23 and 24, the witness

24     himself went into the looting and taking away of properties.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 22418

 1             MS. BIBLES:  I agree, however, it does not say regarding Serbs.

 2     So I'll clarify that question.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  So that's one.  And second, the document doesn't say

 4     so.  So you are --

 5             MS. BIBLES:  If --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- seeking confirmation of a -- more or less a

 7     standard scenario, where the factual description of that scenario is

 8     missing in this respect and where the document, at least what you read to

 9     him, does not say it either.

10             MS. BIBLES:  It will be -- I'll --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please --

12             MS. BIBLES:  I'll withdraw that question.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- keep that in the back of your mind.

14             Yes, please proceed.

15             MS. BIBLES:  There are a number of documents we'll be looking at,

16     Your Honour, and I apologise for jumping the gun, so to speak, there.

17        Q.   Mr. Andan --

18             MS. BIBLES:  And actually, first I'd like to tender 19766.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 19766 receives number P7580,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it 75 or 65?  Madam Registrar?  Is it --

24             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise, it's P6580, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And admitted under that number.

Page 22419

 1             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   We'll return a little later to more of the details about

 3     paramilitaries, but I would like to go back now to the operation against

 4     the Yellow Wasps.  On Friday you indicated that the operation started in

 5     the second half of July.  Now, you've indicated some personal challenges

 6     in remembering exact dates, so let's take a look at a document that might

 7     refresh your memory.

 8             MS. BIBLES:  If we could have 65 ter 1D2255 on our screens.

 9        Q.   And, Mr. Andan, this appears to be a report drafted by you on the

10     1st of August, 1992.  As this has come on our screens, have I described

11     that document accurately?

12        A.   No, this is not the right document.  This is a combat report.

13        Q.   Who drafted this combat report?

14        A.   Our daily task was to inform the ministry about the situation on

15     the front line in our area of responsibility.

16        Q.   Let's see.  This is the correct document.  Let's --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's see.  Mr. Andan, the question was whether this

18     report was drafted by you.  That's the simple question.  Is it, whether

19     it's the right or the wrong document, the one you have on your screen --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, the

21     question and the document should both refer to the paramilitaries in

22     Zvornik and their arrest.  However, this is a report from the front line

23     for that day.  If I understood the Prosecutor properly.  And I did draft

24     this document -- or, rather, I signed it.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That was the question, I think.

Page 22420

 1             Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

 2             MS. BIBLES:

 3        Q.   Mr. Andan, I'll --

 4        A.   I don't think that that was the question.  It wasn't the

 5     question, but you can check.  I apologise.

 6        Q.   Mr. Andan, I'll be -- try to be very specific in my questions so

 7     that we don't have confusion.  I ask you to look at the penultimate

 8     sentence in this document that reads:

 9             "The operation to mop up Zvornik is yielding positive results

10     with regard to security and general situation in Zvornik."

11             I have three questions.  First, reading this and looking at the

12     date, are you able now to tell us when the operation against the

13     Yellow Wasps actually began?

14        A.   I apologise, I don't have that sentence here.  Do you want me to

15     read the document to you?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any confusion as to what the witness has on

17     the screen and what we have on our screen?

18             Do you see a document with some handwritten text at the top and

19     at -- there is a -- the line just above where the main text starts reads:

20             "Your dispatch number 10-11/92 of 17 July 1992."

21             Is that the document you have before you?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now I can see it.  I have that

23     document.

24             "The operation to mop up Zvornik is yielding positive results

25     with regard to the security and general situation in Zvornik."

Page 22421

 1             Yes, this is the document.  I apologise.  Could you please repeat

 2     your question.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please, Ms. Bibles, repeat your question.

 4             MS. BIBLES:

 5        Q.   Mr. Andan, reading this document with the date, are you now able

 6     to tell us when the operation against the Yellow Wasps would have begun?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us that date?

 9        A.   I can't remember.  I don't know.

10        Q.   Would it have been a few days before this document was drafted,

11     or weeks, or can you give us a rough time-frame?

12        A.   I don't think that it was weeks, but it was days before.

13        Q.   Can you tell us whether the VRS was involved at this stage in the

14     operation against the Yellow Wasps?

15        A.   Yes, they were involved.

16        Q.   You were asked to comment on this particular sentence when you

17     testified in the Stanisic/Zupljanin trial, and you said in part:

18             "... we had practically completed this operation by wiping out

19     these and actually expelling them from the Zvornik municipality, these

20     paramilitaries ..."

21             Do you stand by that answer as to this sentence?

22        A.   Yes, it was completed at the moment.

23             MS. BIBLES:  If we could now turn to 65 ter 17386, which is --

24        Q.   It appears to be another document that you drafted regarding the

25     Yellow Wasps operation.

Page 22422

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Any plans for the document which is on our screen?

 2             MS. BIBLES:  I will tender, Your Honours, 65 ter 1D2255.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2255 receives number P6581,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MS. BIBLES:

 9        Q.   Mr. Andan, have you been able to see enough of this document to

10     determine whether this is one that you drafted?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   What is this document, just briefly?

13        A.   This is a criminal report filed against Vojin Vuckovic and others

14     who were all members of the paramilitary formation in Zvornik.

15        Q.   Just to make sure that I'm clear, is this the charging document

16     charging the offences against the Yellow Wasps that you've described in

17     your statement and your testimony?

18        A.   Yes, there are also crimes that they were charged with.  All of

19     those things that they had committed in Zvornik.

20        Q.   Does the first part of this document, I believe the first two and

21     a half pages, name those individuals who were charged with the offence?

22        A.   I believe that there are several names there and then further

23     down it says "and others," if I remember the document well.  We could not

24     name all of them, so we named only the most important ones and added

25     "others."

Page 22423

 1             MS. BIBLES:  If we could just turn to page 2, briefly.

 2        Q.   And let you take a look to see if that language is there.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, there is only one page in B/C/S.

 4             MS. BIBLES:

 5        Q.   Perhaps I'll ask a question, and if you don't recall -- while we

 6     try to find the rest of the B/C/S translation of this document.  If you

 7     don't recall, we'll come back to that question later.

 8             Following the list of people charged, did you then next go to the

 9     charge that these people were facing?  Did you describe the offence?

10        A.   I believe so.

11        Q.   Is it correct that they were charged only with a violation of

12     Article 151, aggravated robbery?

13        A.   I don't see the document, but if this is what you're claiming I

14     am willing to agree with you.

15        Q.   We'll come back to that question once we have the full B/C/S

16     translation of the document.  In the meantime we'll turn to 65 ter 9706,

17     which appears to be another document that you authored regarding the

18     Yellow Wasps operation as well.

19             Have you been able to determine whether this is a document that

20     you authored?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Can you tell us what the purpose was for this document?

23        A.   It was our common practice before the war that once an operation

24     was completed, it had to be analysed and then information was drafted.

25     That information would contain all of the most important elements of the

Page 22424

 1     operation and then people would be informed, the heads of the Ministry of

 2     the Interior.  And if that operation was significant, also the Presidency

 3     of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was also informed.  And in this

 4     case, it was sent to all the relevant bodies in Republika Srpska.  Due to

 5     the significance of the entire activity, we resorted to the old tested

 6     way when it came to informing the heads of the government and the

 7     Ministry of the Interior.

 8             MS. BIBLES:  If we could turn to page 2 in both versions.

 9        Q.   I'd like you to look at this page.  And is it correct near the

10     top of the page you detail the items which were recovered from the group

11     including weapons, cars, and gold?

12        A.   Yes, the second paragraph, if I'm not mistaken.

13        Q.   And then looking down to the bottom of the page, I have questions

14     about a paragraph where it explains that persons will be detained pending

15     charges and that others will be turned over to Serb armed forces or to

16     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia depending on their citizenship.

17             First, why were Bosnian Serbs being turned over to the Serb armed

18     forces?

19        A.   Well, they were military conscripts and there was a priority to

20     recruit them to the military forces.  That's why they were handed over to

21     them.  This means that they were not sent to serve a punishment.  They

22     were put at the disposal of the Army of Republika Srpska so that they

23     could be referred to various units where they would then serve.

24        Q.   Can you tell us why Serbian citizens were deported rather than

25     being prosecuted?

Page 22425

 1        A.   If I understand the criminal report well, those who were

 2     responsible for all those criminal activities - there were 11 of them -

 3     they were charged.  And for the others who were members of the

 4     paramilitary formation were not charged and that's why they were

 5     deported; in other words, we could not obtain evidence to the effect that

 6     those people had indeed committed crimes.

 7        Q.   I'd like to turn now to the last page in the last paragraph of

 8     your report, and I draw your attention to the information that

 9     Dusko Vuckovic, known as Repic, was committing massacre, genocide, over

10     citizens of Muslim ethnicity.  In this paragraph you explain that Serb

11     armed forces, MPs, and national security operatives were taking care of

12     this information.  Did you follow-up on this information?

13        A.   Well, I didn't do any follow-up.  I was not in a position to do

14     that because very soon after that I was removed from the MUP; i.e., I was

15     chased away, to be more precise.  So I was in no position to do any

16     follow-up.  But I know for a fact that this kind of information, either

17     verbatim or somewhat different, was sent to the Ministry of the Republic

18     of Serbia.  I'm talking about Vuckovic and his brother Repic and the

19     crimes that they had committed.

20        Q.   Were you aware that Repic confessed to the military police

21     regarding these killings in 1992?

22        A.   I'm not aware of that detail, but I know that based on the

23     results of our activities he was tried in Sabac and sentenced.

24        Q.   We'll step through this in a focused manner.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I --

Page 22426

 1             MS. BIBLES:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- put one question in the meantime just to

 3     clarify.

 4             You said a minute ago, Mr. Andan, and I quote:

 5             "I'm talking about Vuckovic and his brother Repic ..."

 6             When I'm looking at the document, I see here "the information

 7     obtained by" some units "indicate that Dusan Vuckovic, also known as

 8     Repic" was committing massacre."  It seems to be the same person,

 9     Vuckovic and Repic, or are these two different persons?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were two Vuckovic brothers,

11     Vojin and Dusan also known as Repic, if I'm not mistaken.  Vojin was

12     known as Zuco and his brother was known as Repic.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  This clarifies it.

14             And I have another question.  On page 19, lines 20 to 22, you

15     said:

16             "If I understand the criminal report well, those who were

17     responsible for all those criminal activities - there were 11 of them -

18     they were charged."

19             Can you tell us what you know about any prosecution, trial,

20     sentencing of these 11 people?  What happened to them after they were

21     charged?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In legal terms, the Ministry of the

23     Interior sends a criminal report to the prosecutor's office and that's

24     where its responsibilities stop.  That was up to the prosecutor's office.

25     Neither as private persons nor officially did we ever want to do any

Page 22427

 1     follow-up.  We were not allowed to do that.  But in the meantime, I heard

 2     that they were never tried.

 3             There was a lady called Biljana, I don't know what her last name

 4     was but I know she was a prosecutor and she was the one who took over the

 5     case.  I believe that she is still a prosecutor in the prosecutor's

 6     office of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  She is still a prosecutor.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I understand from your answer that you heard in

 8     the meantime that they were never tried.  What is the source of this

 9     information?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard it from some private

11     sources.  I spoke to Davidovic, for example.  I joined the army, we met

12     somewhere.  They were released.  And around my house I saw Zuco

13     observing, he was looking for me, and then I inquired about them, and

14     then I heard that there were no charges against them and that they were

15     all actually let go.  They were released.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I still have a few questions for you in this

18     context, Witness.

19             On the basis of the document which is now on the screen, which is

20     dated the 4th of August, you explained to us that the persons mentioned

21     in there on page 2 in the English, Vojin Vuckovic, Dusan Vuckovic,

22     Tanaskovic, et cetera, that they were to be sent back to the units --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tanaskovic, yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That they were to be sent back to their units

25     because there was insufficient evidence to prosecute them.  Is that well

Page 22428

 1     understood?

 2             Perhaps we have a look at page 2 in English and most likely

 3     page 2 in B/C/S as well, but I'm not certain about that.  Yes.

 4             You explained the line saying these person will be detained until

 5     criminal reports, et cetera, and then later it states:

 6             "Depending on the citizenship they will be turned over to the

 7     Serb armed forces or deported to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."

 8             Now, you said:  We did that because they had to be sent back to

 9     their units because there was no sufficient evidence to prosecute them.

10     Is that correctly understood?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, you didn't understand me

12     properly.  Perhaps I can explain, if I may.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 11 people who were handed over

15     to the prosecutor's office did not not belong to the group of the others.

16     In other words, these 11 were tried.  The others were not because no

17     evidence could be obtained to the effect that they had committed crimes.

18     Those who were citizens of Serbia were deported and those who were from

19     Republika Srpska were placed at the disposal of the Army of

20     Republika Srpska.  So we were talking about two groups:  The first one

21     that was tried and the other group which was never tried.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean the other 54?  We're talking about the

23     other 54 that were sent back to their units.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And these ones, they were -- the 11, they were kept

Page 22429

 1     in detention for how long?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, police detention could

 3     go on for 72 hours, I think; that is to say, without a prosecutor being

 4     involved, the police could remand people in custody for up to 72 hours.

 5     Once we would take statements from these persons and collect witness

 6     statements, when we'd complete the entire file, then the police detention

 7     would be done.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you -- I think the charges were filed on

 9     the 28th of August, that is, 24 days after this report was filed.  And it

10     says:

11             "These persons will be detained until the criminal reports are

12     filed to the prosecutor's office in charge thereof in Bijeljina."

13             But you say they could be kept in detention for three days, but

14     you more or less announce here that you'll keep them in detention until

15     the charges have been -- the criminal reports are filed to the

16     prosecutor's office.  When was that then done?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The further procedure would be as

18     follows:  If the three days would be up, then we'd address the

19     prosecutor's office and then we'd ask them to decide on detention.  In

20     the first stage it would be one month, and then if necessary it could go

21     on.  I as a legalist believe that if police detention would be up after

22     72 hours, then we would ask the prosecutor's office, and then they would

23     respond.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Was that done in this case?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably, yes.  If you have

Page 22430

 1     mentioned this.  But then I don't believe that they could have been

 2     detained for a month.  When all the documents are put together, that can

 3     be seen.  But I claim if police detention was up after three days, then

 4     we would address the prosecutor's office and then they would continue

 5     their detention and that would be it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  But I'd like to know what happens rather than --

 7     because on the 4th of August you write:  "These persons will be detained

 8     until the criminal the reports are filed," I do understand that's for a

 9     couple of days, and I just want to know what happened after that.  Were

10     these reports filed, were they detained any further?  If you know.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the moment when we set up this

12     file, then they were released, then it was the prosecutor's office that

13     took them over, if you will, and they were the ones who released them.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  So you transferred them to the prosecutor's office,

15     and the prosecutor's office said:  Let's release them.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You know what the prosecutor did,

17     but I told you about this part; that is to say, how far our powers went.

18     Once they are handed over to the prosecutor's office, we have nothing to

19     do with it any longer.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No, and they were released.  That's -- I'm not

21     saying you released them, but the fact was that they were then released

22     after a few days.  Thank you.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Obviously.  Obviously.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             Ms. Bibles, I'm looking at the clock.  It's time for a break

Page 22431

 1     anyhow.

 2             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

 3             We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes, Mr. Andan.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and will resume at five minutes to

 6     11.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted

10     into the courtroom, Ms. Bibles, according to our bookkeeping system, that

11     is, Madam Registrar's bookkeeping system, you've got one hour and

12     15 minutes left.

13             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I understand from

14     Ms. Stewart that I might actually have a minute less than that, but I do

15     anticipate --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No, well, then to be quite honest, one hour,

17     16 minutes was reported to me and not 1 hour, 14 minutes, but --

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the truth is always in the middle.  One hour,

20     15 minutes.

21             Please proceed.

22             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Mr. Andan, I promised you that we would go back to a document --

24             MS. BIBLES:  And that would be 65 ter 17386.

25        Q.   -- once we believe that we had corrected the uploading issue with

Page 22432

 1     the B/C/S section.  I'd like to do that now.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  If we could go to page 3 of 17386.

 3        Q.   Mr. Andan, is it your recollection that we were discussing the

 4     charges that you had drafted for the Yellow Wasps?  Is that your

 5     recollection?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   As you look at this page, does this help refresh your

 8     recollection or do we need to go to the next page?

 9        A.   It's all right.

10             MS. BIBLES:  I'm not sure that we have the right page in English

11     up.  Perhaps we could go to the next page, please.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  What you are looking for, Ms. Bibles?

13             MS. BIBLES:  This document does not appear to like us today.  Are

14     we on page 3 in e-court on both pages?  There we go.  We're in the

15     correct page on English.  Page 5 in B/C/S.

16        Q.   Mr. Andan, does this page contain the charges which you drafted

17     regarding the Yellow Wasps?

18        A.   Yes, this is a description of the crimes that they had committed.

19        Q.   And are we reading this correctly at the top of the page that

20     they were charged with a violation of Article 151, which would be

21     aggravated robbery?

22        A.   I don't see that article here.  Maybe you can see it, but I see

23     the description.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Three lines from the bottom in the first paragraph,

25     just above "opis djela" [phoen].  You found it, Witness?

Page 22433

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  I have.

 2             MS. BIBLES:

 3        Q.   Are we correct that they were charged with violations of

 4     Article 151, aggravated robbery?

 5        A.   Yes, that's evident.

 6             MS. BIBLES:  And I'd next ask that we go to 65 ter 30779, which

 7     is a statement taken from Dusko Vuckovic from the 4th of August, 1992.

 8        Q.   Mr. Andan, as this document is coming up on the screen, I believe

 9     you described that there were two Vuckovic brothers?

10        A.   Yes, Vojin and Dusan.

11        Q.   Do you see the name of one of the two brothers on the document

12     that has come up on the screen?

13        A.   Yes, Dusko.

14        Q.   Is he the one known as Repic?

15        A.   Yes, that's him.

16        Q.   Could you take a moment to look at this document that's in front

17     of you.  And I would direct your attention to the bottom of the first

18     page --

19             MS. BIBLES:  And I will turn the page.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then we have to scroll down in the B/C/S.

21             MS. BIBLES:  Yes.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Have we indeed seen the last -- the bottom of the

23     first page before it was turned to the second page?

24             MS. BIBLES:  Ah.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not fully.

Page 22434

 1             MS. BIBLES:

 2        Q.   Do you need to go back to the first page and read the bottom?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And could we do the same in English.

 4             MS. BIBLES:  Yes.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I've seen it.

 6             MS. BIBLES:

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             MS. BIBLES:  If we could go back to the second page.

 9        Q.   Is it correct that this is a statement in which Repic admits

10     committing murders of non-Serbs at Celopek?

11        A.   Yes, but on this page, Marko Pavlovic cannot be commander of the

12     police station.  He was head of the TO staff in Zvornik.  Ratko was

13     commander of the police station in Zvornik, whereas he here admits that

14     he committed the crime of murdering the civilian population in Zvornik,

15     non-Serb civilian population.

16        Q.   Mr. Andan, I want to clarify the record.  And first, to be fair

17     to the record, Dusko Vuckovic was tried and convicted in Serbia after the

18     war in 1996 of these offences.  Is that your understanding?

19        A.   Yes.  I think he was tried in Sabac and that he was sentenced to

20     I don't know how many years in prison.

21        Q.   But going back to August of 1992, is it true that he was released

22     along with the rest of the Yellow Wasps who you had arrested?

23        A.   I don't think he was released.  I think that we handed him over

24     to the military police, as far as I can remember.  And I think that that

25     is contained in some documents, including this criminal report.  Person

Page 22435

 1     number 9 was handed over to the military police.

 2        Q.   Do you know who took the statement that we're looking at?

 3        A.   One of the operatives who worked at the security services centre

 4     in Bijeljina then.  I don't know exactly.  But a person from the crime

 5     prevention service, that's for sure.

 6             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, at this point I would tender documents

 7     09706, 17386, and 30779.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 97006 receives number P6582,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You misspoke, I think.  It should be document

12     9706.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, document is 09706.  And it receives number

14     P6582, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  P6582 is admitted.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 17386 receives number P6583,

17     Your Honours.  And document 30779 receives number P6584, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P6583 and P6584 are admitted.

19             MS. BIBLES:

20        Q.   Mr. Andan, is it your understanding that after the Yellow Wasps

21     were released that they went to Pale and met with Mrs. Plavsic?

22        A.   We had information that Zuco - and now, who was with him, I don't

23     know - went to Pale after that, that he met with Mrs. Plavsic and

24     Malko Koroman, the then chief of the police station in Pale.  That's the

25     information that we had.  And I think that I spoke of that when I

Page 22436

 1     previously testified.

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Andan, you've previously testified that as a result of

 3     this and other actions in the summer of 1992, that some Serb propaganda

 4     circulated at the time accusing you and others you worked with of

 5     protecting Muslims and arresting Serbs for small crimes.  Do you stand by

 6     this testimony?

 7        A.   Yes, this specifically pertains to Bijeljina.  The information

 8     service, civilians, radio television, local newspapers, they accused me

 9     and Mr. Davidovic of protecting Muslims and that we are arresting on

10     false charges or trumped up charges "Serb fighters."  As a matter of

11     fact, at a session of the Assembly of Bijeljina, a request was made to

12     expel me from the municipality of Bijeljina and to have him returned to

13     the federal SUP.

14        Q.   And by "him" you mean Mr. Davidovic?

15        A.   Yes, yes.  That Davidovic should be returned to the federal SUP

16     where he had come from and that I should be expelled from the area of

17     Bijeljina precisely because of what I told you about just now.

18        Q.   In paragraph 7 of your statement and I believe at parts of your

19     testimony, you have alluded to a suspension or being removed from the

20     Serbian police.  Is it true that following your work arresting the

21     paramilitaries you were suspended from the Serbian police in August of

22     1992?

23        A.   I've already said this.  I never received an official document.

24     I just told by Mr. Kovac, who had come from Pale to Bijeljina, he said

25     that I should no longer come to the MUP, that they think that I shouldn't

Page 22437

 1     work any longer, and that they don't need me any longer.  Just one more

 2     sentence, please.  You will allow me.  Let me say this:  Mr. Kovac was

 3     very brazen when he said this.  When I asked him for an explanation, he

 4     said this:  Professionally you did everything for top marks, but we used

 5     you as a one-off condom.  That's it.  That was my conversation with

 6     Mr. Kovac and that's how I left the ministry.

 7        Q.   From the ministry you went to work with the VRS; is that correct?

 8        A.   Correct.  A few days -- actually, I spent a few days in

 9     Bijeljina.  I didn't do anything.  Mr. Salapura showed up, I mean, he

10     came to see me at home, and he said that if I was interested, if I wanted

11     to, would I like to be transferred to the Army of Republika Srpska, and I

12     accepted that.

13        Q.   Is it correct that from September of 1992 to September of 1993,

14     you worked as an intelligence officer for the 65th Motorised Protection

15     Regiment?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   And I believe you refer to this in your statement that during the

18     time in this assignment, you also led a sabotage detachment in 1993; is

19     that correct?

20        A.   Yes, yes.  Officially there was no commander of the sabotage

21     detachment.  For a certain period of time I led that detachment.

22        Q.   Did you lead this detachment as part of Lukavac 93?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   In the statement provided for this case, you describe two times

25     that you saw the accused with prisoners, both appear to be during

Page 22438

 1     Lukavac 1993; is that accurate?

 2        A.   Could you please clarify that question, please?

 3        Q.   In the statement that you provided for this case, which I think

 4     is in front of you if you'd like to review it, you describe two times

 5     that you saw --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's not on the screen.

 7             MS. BIBLES:  I'm sorry.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It should be called up.

 9             MS. BIBLES:  Yes.  If we could --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you intend to refer to a hard copy?

11             MS. BIBLES:  I'm sorry, I was referring to a hard copy but it

12     would not hurt to pull up this statement on the screen.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MS. BIBLES:  And I believe that's D512.  And if we go to page 3,

15     I believe, in both versions in e-court, which describes one of the

16     contacts that the accused had with a prisoner.  And then if we could turn

17     to the next page.

18        Q.   With respect to paragraph 16, that is the second reference that

19     I'm alluding to here.  Did both of these events occur during

20     Lukavac 1993?

21        A.   Yes, both.

22        Q.   Can you tell us if there were other times that you saw him with

23     prisoners during the war?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Now, in paragraph 15 and then 16, the bulk of this portion of

Page 22439

 1     this statement, you describe this incident where you come upon of group

 2     of 20 to 30 Muslim prisoners.  You noticed injuries on the prisoners.

 3     Were these clearly visible injuries?

 4        A.   I think it was an incident.  They surrendered to the Army of

 5     Republika Srpska in that operation that was carried out then.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was whether the injuries were clearly

 7     visible.  How they got there, who inflicted them is not the question.

 8     First, could you clearly see them?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were visible injuries on the

10     faces of some of the soldiers of the Muslim army.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MS. BIBLES:

13        Q.   Is it true that you did not take statements from these prisoners,

14     take photographs of their injuries, or interview the soldiers?

15        A.   No, because at that moment I was not in that role.  I mean, that

16     was done by the security organ of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

17        Q.   But you don't have information that those things were done by

18     anyone, do you?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   In fact, to the best of your knowledge, the order was that they

21     be taken to Kula.  Isn't that your understanding of where they were to

22     go?

23        A.   General Mladic, who showed up there, he asked me:  Who are these

24     guys, where are they from?  He said that the security organ should be

25     informed, that they should come and collect them, and write down their

Page 22440

 1     names and that they should be transferred to the Kula prison, and that an

 2     adequate number of Serbs who are being held prisoner in Sarajevo should

 3     be exchanged for them.

 4        Q.   Well, let's go back to paragraphs 11 through 14.

 5             MS. BIBLES:  Which I believe is the page in front of this or

 6     before this one.

 7        Q.   In these paragraphs you describe events surrounding a prisoner

 8     who is captured in Trnovo.  Is this Asim Zulic that you are talking

 9     about?

10        A.   Yes, yes, I remember his surname because as chief of police in

11     Stari Grad, I had problems with the Zulic family.  They were constantly

12     involved in crime.  And I remember that name very well.  It doesn't have

13     to do with this Mr. Zulic personally.  It's some relatives of his.

14        Q.   Well, the next question I had is whether you knew Mr. Zulic prior

15     to the war?

16        A.   I don't think I had direct contact.  Perhaps he knew me as a

17     senior inspector, but I, as far as I know, did not know him.  And I don't

18     know whether he was an active-duty policeman before the war anyway.

19        Q.   Your statement describes and what I think was captured in the

20     summary is Mr. Zulic's attitude towards the accused and that that

21     attitude was appreciative.  I'd like to ask you some questions and some

22     very specific questions about the evidence.  In paragraph 12 you

23     describe, with quotes, a statement that Mladic made to Zulic.  Were you

24     present when those statements were made?

25        A.   Yes, I was present.

Page 22441

 1        Q.   Can you tell us where this conversation took place?

 2        A.   I don't know where that conversation took place.  It was in front

 3     of a house, in any case.  There were several soldiers and officers there.

 4     Mr. Mladic turned up.  He sat down with him and he told him, "Don't be

 5     afraid.  Your life is guaranteed.  You will be exchanged.  You will be

 6     taken to the Kula prison."

 7             During that conversation, as far as I can remember, and I believe

 8     that my memory serves me well, he was offered a cup of coffee.  He drank

 9     that coffee.  And after that conversation, he sat down in a Puch car and

10     he was transferred to Kula in that Puch, if my memory serves me right and

11     I believe it does.

12        Q.   At some point during that incident, did you become aware that

13     Mr. Zulic was president of the Committee for Exchange of Prisoners?

14        A.   The way I understood it was that Mr. Zulic was an officer in the

15     police station.

16        Q.   Who took Mr. Zulic away?

17        A.   I can't tell you.  A vehicle came escorted by the police or the

18     military and he was taken away.  I don't know who did it, really.

19        Q.   Did you stay with General Mladic after Mr. Zulic was taken away?

20        A.   No, I didn't.  I had some other tasks to carry out.  I did what I

21     had to do there and then I departed with the lads that I was with at the

22     time.

23        Q.   Do you have any information as to whether General Mladic spoke

24     with Zulic a second time that same day?

25        A.   I was there only once.

Page 22442

 1        Q.   Are you aware that Mr. Zulic was interviewed with General Mladic

 2     on SRNA the following day?

 3        A.   I've never seen that.  There was a combat going on, so I didn't

 4     have the time nor the opportunity to watch TV.

 5        Q.   Mr. Andan, I'd like to take a look at -- have you take a look at

 6     65 ter 30758, which is a statement taken or given by Mr. Zulic in, I

 7     believe, 1996.  If we could pull up the first page, to give you a

 8     reference.

 9        A.   I apologise.  Despite having my spectacles on, I can't see a

10     thing here.

11        Q.   The B/C/S version is difficult to read.  I'd ask you to --

12             MS. BIBLES:  Perhaps we could look more closely at the first

13     paragraph in the statement.

14        Q.   Mr. Andan, we'll turn to page 4 in both versions and focus on

15     part of this statement.  Do you see the name -- before we turn away

16     there, did you see the name of Mr. Asim Zulic?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You're back on the first page where you may be able

18     to read it.  Could we zoom in on the first paragraph, especially the --

19     yes.

20             Do you see the name of Asim Zulic?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see Asim Zulic, son of

22     somebody, born in 1952.  I can see that.  And I can see that the

23     statement was provided on the 1st of March 1990-something.  The year is

24     not clear.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

Page 22443

 1             MS. BIBLES:

 2        Q.   Mr. Andan, I'd direct your attention going back to page 4.  And

 3     then we'll turn to page 5.

 4             MS. BIBLES:  And if we could go to page 5 in the English.  And

 5     I'll ask that we focus on the B/C/S version near the bottom of the page.

 6        Q.   I believe as you look towards the lower third you can make the

 7     out the name Mladic, Ratko -- Komandant Ratko Mladic at eight lines from

 8     the bottom?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The last two words on the line 9 from the bottom,

10     Witness.  You found it?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "At that moment the aggressor

12     commander said Mladic," something, and then I can't read the rest.  And

13     he said:  "Don't kill him."  I can see that.  "Report to the Red Cross,

14     we'll see what we are going to do about him," is that what you had in

15     mind?  "In the basement escorted by the police officers," and then I

16     can't see, "an unknown person or man, about 50 years of age, of medium

17     height," somebody addressed him as president.  And then he starts asking

18     questions about Kolak and I can't see the rest of that.

19             MS. BIBLES:

20        Q.   Mr. Andan, let's go -- really key in on the quote attributed to

21     Mr. Mladic.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, could we have the bottom part of

23     the previous page in English so that we see how it starts.  Because

24     that's the part apparently the witness read.  Could we move to the next

25     page in English.

Page 22444

 1             Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

 2             MS. BIBLES:

 3        Q.   Mr. Andan, Mr. Zulic's quote, if you would look closely at this,

 4     as to what Mr. Mladic actually said, was:

 5             "Don't kill him and don't report him to the Red Cross.  We will

 6     see what we will do with him."

 7             Wouldn't you agree that Mr. Zulic's recollection of the statement

 8     made to him by Mladic would be the most accurate description?

 9        A.   No.  I was there and I told you what he said.  I can repeat that.

10        Q.   Mr. Andan --

11             MS. BIBLES:  If we could move to page 5 in B/C/S.

12        Q.   -- Mr. Zulic describes that after his contact with Mladic, that

13     he was taken into a basement and interrogated.  He describes that

14     although the interrogation was fairly short, that he was abused after he

15     answered every question.  Do you have any reason to doubt that he was

16     interrogated after he was arrested?

17        A.   I have no reason to doubt or not to doubt.  I don't know who

18     interrogated him.  I don't know when.

19        Q.   Mr. Andan, Mr. Zulic describes that he saw Mladic a second time

20     that same day when Mladic came to the interrogation in the basement and

21     asked him questions about troop strength and other questions about

22     strategy.  Wouldn't you agree that Mr. Zulic's recollection of that day

23     would be better than your lack of knowledge with respect to those events?

24        A.   He was in that position and I suppose that he remembers all the

25     details.  I told you what I remember.

Page 22445

 1             MS. BIBLES:  I'd next like to turn to page 6 in both versions.

 2        Q.   And I would ask you to look, even though it's difficult, at the

 3     top of the page in B/C/S for your name.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see the name of Avdir Vatic

 5     [phoen].  I don't see my name anywhere.

 6             MS. BIBLES:

 7        Q.   Mr. Andan, I believe seven lines down in the middle of the page

 8     you'll find your name, Dragan Andan.  And in this page it's a little

 9     darker than some of the rest of the type, and that seems to be fairly

10     clear.  Could you take another look below the Avdo Vatric name?

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due

12     respect, a reference is made to line 7 on this page.  I believe it would

13     be fair to tell the witness that his name is mentioned on line 2 of this

14     page because that would give the witness the entire context of the event,

15     and it would only be fair.  If the witness was aware of the entire

16     context, he would be able to put Mr. Zulic's words into a context and

17     only then would he be able to answer the Prosecutor's questions.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That's very long for saying:  Could we start at

19     line 2 where the name is mentioned as well.  Do we need to go back to the

20     previous page or is it sufficiently clear?  Because it seems that the

21     name of the witness appears in the middle of a sentence.  Perhaps we

22     should ...

23             Ms. Bibles, you will give the guidance.

24             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, if we could move back to page 5 at the very

25     bottom of the page.

Page 22446

 1        Q.   Mr. Andan, I see you don't have your glasses on.  Could you try

 2     to take a close look at the bottom of page 5 in the B/C/S version,

 3     please?

 4        A.   I have my glasses, yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps it's easier if you read it slowly to him,

 6     Ms. Bibles, because the quality of the B/C/S is not that good and

 7     difficult to immediately decipher.

 8             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Mr. Andan - and perhaps if we go to the next page, this will be

10     of assistance - what the English versions describes is:

11             "Dragan Andan, a former employee of the Serb" -- excuse me, "RS

12     BH MUP, Ministry of Interior, came up to the car.  He was wearing a

13     uniform.  He opened the door to the," and I believe it's "Puh vehicle,"

14     P-u-h, "and asked me, 'Do you recognise me?'  I told him that I did and

15     he asked where I was captured and inquired about the former Trnovo SJB

16     commander, Avdo Vatric.  I told him that Avdo Vatric had stayed with the

17     army which left Trnovo.  Dragan Andan closed the door of the Puh vehicle

18     and we moved on."

19             Do you have a recollection of that contact with Mr. Zulic the day

20     after he was arrested?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Mr. Andan, I believe you testified that you were unaware that

23     there was an interview of Mr. Zulic with Mr. Mladic with SRNA?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   So would it surprise you to know that in an interview with SRNA,

Page 22447

 1     that Mladic humiliated and embarrassed Mr. Zulic during the course of

 2     that interview?

 3        A.   I can't comment because I did not see that.

 4        Q.   Would it surprise you, then, if the behaviour of Mr. Mladic

 5     towards Mr. Zulic was so embarrassing that members of Mladic's own family

 6     tried to get him to stop?

 7        A.   I don't know why you are asking me that.  I can only talk about

 8     what I personally saw.

 9        Q.   Mr. Andan, I'm asking you this because three paragraphs of your

10     statement describe the incident with Mr. Zulic and describe that

11     Mr. Zulic was appreciative towards Mr. Mladic.  So wouldn't you agree, as

12     a police officer, as a human being, that it would make sense to see what

13     Mr. Zulic himself says about this incident?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but that's different from putting questions to

15     the witness.  There is a clear --

16             MS. BIBLES:  Okay.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- view that this witness's recollection is --

18     differs from the recollection which we learned from a statement given by

19     Mr. Zulic.

20             But your last question was about a different matter, that is,

21     whether this witness would be surprised that Mr. Mladic -- it certainly

22     does not correspond with his observation of what he says he observed

23     himself.  And all the rest, Ms. Bibles, would he be surprised if his

24     neighbours would have stopped him, if his family would have stopped him,

25     if it happened at all, I mean, whether the witness would be surprised or

Page 22448

 1     not is not the most vital issue that we have to hear about.  There

 2     clearly is a different recollection or at least a clearly different

 3     description of the event.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MS. BIBLES:  If we could see 65 ter 30759, please.

 6        Q.   Mr. Andan, an investigator with the Office of the Prosecutor

 7     spoke with Mr. Zulic on 13th of May, 2014, and you're now looking at or

 8     you will be looking at the statement that was taken.  I would ask you to

 9     take a few moments - it's a relatively short statement - to review it,

10     specifically with respect to the treatment of Ratko Mladic towards

11     Mr. Zulic.

12             MS. BIBLES:  And if we could go to the next page.

13        Q.   It appears you finished reading this page.  You're ready for the

14     next --

15        A.   May I?

16             MS. BIBLES:  If we could turn to the next page, please.

17        Q.   Mr. Andan, your statement describes Mr. Zulic's attitude

18     regarding his treatment at the hands of Ratko Mladic.  You talk in your

19     statement, and I believe it's paragraph 14, that even today Mr. Zulic is

20     appreciative.  Wouldn't you agree now that having read his original

21     statement and the current statement, that his attitude about Mr. Mladic

22     and the treatment he received is different than the interpretation that

23     you provided?

24        A.   Madam, Madam Prosecutor, my brothers Radenko and Mladen also

25     surrendered to the BiH Army.  They didn't survive.  Their throats were

Page 22449

 1     slit in 1993 in Sarajevo.  Zulic has stayed alive.  We can have different

 2     opinions.  We can have different views of various things.  I told you

 3     what I saw.  I told you what I witnessed.  I cannot say anything about

 4     Zulic's statement after so many years for various reasons.  If you want

 5     me to tell you what the reasons are, I am more than happy to share them

 6     with you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, Mr. Mladic, you remain seated.  You can

 8     consult at an inaudible volume.

 9             I hear you, Mr. Mladic.  Mr. Mladic, stop.  I can hear you even

10     with my earphones on.  So if you want to consult with counsel, you are

11     able to do so but at a volume inaudible for anyone.  The rule is quite

12     simple.  I am not obstructing that.

13             Ms. Bibles, could you please resume.  Or as a matter of fact, the

14     witness has answered the question, I would say, yes.  Please proceed.

15             MS. BIBLES:  Yes.

16        Q.   Mr. Andan, as I'm wrapping up here, thinking back to paragraph 6

17     of your statement, you advise that the Yellow Wasps were eliminated as

18     part of the operation that was conducted and yet that didn't really tell

19     us the whole truth about the Yellow Wasps, did it?

20        A.   In what context?  What do you mean?

21        Q.   That the Yellow Wasps, in fact, were released after a period of

22     time in custody, and they went to Pale and were received by Mrs. Plavsic

23     and were not prosecuted for the offences.  Wouldn't you agree that those

24     things were left out of your statement?

25        A.   I've already clarified that several times here.  I told you that

Page 22450

 1     we filed a criminal report and it was up to the prosecutor why they

 2     didn't follow-up.  As far as the police were concerned, the case was

 3     closed.

 4        Q.   Mr. Andan, in paragraph 6 of your statement you say:

 5             "In that period there were quite a few police activities.  Again,

 6     the struggle with paramilitary formations.  And what is most important,

 7     the elimination of a paramilitary formation called the Yellow Wasps in

 8     Zvornik."

 9             Wouldn't you agree that that leaves out rather critical

10     information and evidence regarding the Yellow Wasps?

11        A.   What?

12        Q.   Mr. Andan, I'll move on.  Isn't it true that in terms of value

13     for the Trial Chamber of your statement, the most important aspects of

14     your statement really isn't what you said but what you left out of the

15     statement?

16        A.   I don't agree with you.  I answered all of your questions.  I

17     even told you what is not contained in the statement.  So whatever may

18     have been left out, I shared with you verbally.  And let me just tell you

19     that the Yellow Wasps as a paramilitary formation never recovered after

20     our operation.  They were never re-established as a formation and they

21     were never active in the territory of the Republika Srpska after that.

22             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I would tender 30758 and 30759.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you remind me the --

24             MS. BIBLES:  These were the statement of Mr. Zulic, the original

25     statement --

Page 22451

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And the declaration?

 2             MS. BIBLES:  And the declaration, yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And the declaration fits into what rule?

 4             MS. BIBLES:  89(C), Your Honour.  It's relevant.  For one, he

 5     verifies the information in the first report.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And a written statement taken for the purposes of

 7     this Tribunal where the witness does not appear for cross-examination, is

 8     that something that we would need to deal with under Rule 92 bis or

 9     92 ter?

10             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, we certainly could.  However, given the

11     testimony of this witness, both in his statement and in the courtroom,

12     the argument would be that this is relevant for you to consider for the

13     purposes of evaluating his statement.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But Rules 92 bis and 92 ter are not talking

15     about the kind of relevance.  They give rather strict rules on

16     admissibility.

17             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I -- and I -- the first statement that

18     was taken, the Bosnian statement, was not actually taken for the purposes

19     of this Tribunal.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the reason --

21             MS. BIBLES:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- why I said this in relation to the second one and

23     not in relation to the first one.

24             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, considering again the Prosecution's

25     perspective on this is that Mr. Andan did confirm some of the details in

Page 22452

 1     the Bosnian statement, that Mr. Zulic was arrested, that Mladic was

 2     there, those sorts of things, and that he has sufficiently provided

 3     enough information to -- to allow the document to come in as authentic.

 4     We believe he doesn't have reason to doubt that Mr. Zulic reported the

 5     document or that reported the information in the document.

 6             In terms of evaluating his statement, Mr. Andan's statement, we

 7     suggest that it's in the interest of fairness and in the interest of

 8     justice in trying to assess his testimony that it would be appropriate to

 9     consider as well the statements of Mr. Zulic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any case law in support of your position

11     in that if once the statement is taken at the time by the local

12     authorities, that his statement taken later with the specific purposes to

13     use it in the ICTY proceedings, that that is not subject any further to

14     the formalities of 92 bis and 92 ter?

15             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, off the top of my head I do not -- what

16     I would ask is that we MFI these documents and that I could provide

17     supplementary material with respect to admission at a later time.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, for the first one that may be different but

19     let me -- Mr. Stojanovic, what would be your position?

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, like last time, we

21     are opposed to having this statement admitted into evidence.  The

22     statement of a person and this was not done for the needs of this court

23     and it's not a proper 92 bis or 92 ter statement.  We had an identical

24     situation last week and, again, we were opposed to having such statements

25     admitted into evidence, especially after the witness spoke today and

Page 22453

 1     responded to questions put by the Prosecution in relation to this

 2     statement.  Therefore, we believe that this statement cannot be admitted

 3     into evidence.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, which statement are you referring to

 5     now, the old one or the new one?

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Number one, I am talking about

 7     the old statement given in November 1993.  And with your leave, I'm going

 8     to speak about this statement, when you ask me about that, and I'm going

 9     to be opposed to that, too, quite simply because in this statement that

10     was given to an investigator two months ago, it says:

11             "I stand by the statement I gave in November 1993."

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you earlier said the statement of a person not

13     done for the purposes of this court.  Now, wouldn't that widen the

14     options for admission if it is not taken for the purposes of proceedings

15     before this court?

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.  But

17     it's for the Prosecution to say, and not in this way as its been proposed

18     today.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Both documents will be MFI'd.

20             Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30758 receives number P6585.  And

22     document 30759 receives number P6586, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  P6585 and P6586 are marked for identification.

24             We take a break but not until after the witness has been escorted

25     out of the courtroom.

Page 22454

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And we will resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 12.27 p.m.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's proceed, Ms. Bibles.

 8             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I've concluded my examination.  Thank

 9     you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Bibles.

11             Just one little question.  You referred to a SRNA interview,

12     et cetera.  Is there -- is that in evidence?

13             MS. BIBLES:  It is not.  It's referred to by Mr. Zulic.  We do

14     not have a copy of that SRNA interview --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  There is no copy?

16             MS. BIBLES:  Right.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Any further questions, Mr. Stojanovic?

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A few questions, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court

21     document 65 ter 1D02275.

22                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Andan, during the cross-examination by the

24     Prosecutor, you were asked quite a few things about Brcko.  This is what

25     I'm asking you now.  To the best of your recollection, in July 1992,

Page 22455

 1     after you left Brcko, this paramilitary formation, the Red Berets, was it

 2     placed under the command of the Army of Republika Srpska?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Could we please take a look at this together, paragraph 3 from

 5     the bottom of this report of yours.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the next

 7     page in English, Your Honours.

 8        Q.   In this dispatch that you're sending to the Ministry of the

 9     Interior on the 24th of July, 1992, among other things, you say:

10             "Through our operative activities, we learned that the members of

11     the Red Berets are still not subordinated to the military organs (twenty

12     of them), and the Brcko garrison of the Serbian army gave them the

13     dead-line to do so by 1800 hours."

14             This is my question for you:  Do you remember whether at any

15     point in time these 20 or so members of the Red Berets joined the regular

16     ranks of the Army of Republika Srpska?

17        A.   Twice the unit of the police from Bijeljina intervened in Brcko.

18     The first time we eliminated or we thought that we had eliminated the

19     Red Berets.  We went on other missions and they rose again, and the

20     situation of chaos, if I can call it that, prevailed in Brcko once again.

21     We intervened a second time and then there was an armed rebellion of the

22     Red Berets because we had arrested most of their members and some of them

23     became renegades.  They even took some heavy weaponry with them and they

24     went to Ugljevik.

25             At that moment, I heard via radio communication that they had

Page 22456

 1     kidnapped Major Sehovac and they asked me to have their members released

 2     or they would kill Sehovac.  I gave them a laconic answer:  Kill him.  If

 3     the Serb army has anything, it has plenty of officers.  They didn't kill

 4     Sehovac.  They handed over all the weapons.  We made a list.  They all

 5     hailed from Serbia, and at the Raca border crossing we gave them all to

 6     the Serbian authorities.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Your experience in view of all the work you did in

 8     the police and the Army Republika Srpska, the Main Staff of the Army of

 9     Republika Srpska, did they have the sincere intention of doing away with

10     all of these paramilitary formations throughout Republika Srpska?

11        A.   My explicit answer is:  Yes.  This was an ongoing topic on the

12     agenda of all meetings that I attended, that they should be disarmed,

13     that they should be sent back to Serbia or other places that they had

14     come from outside Bosnia-Herzegovina.  At one point in time, it was more

15     of a problem than the front line itself.  However, in order to carry this

16     through, a different kind of support was needed as well.  You know how we

17     faired in Bijeljina.  This political support was not always on the side

18     of those who wanted to settle scores with such criminals.

19        Q.   Thank you.  I am waiting for the interpretation.  Please don't

20     hold that against me.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court

22     P501.

23        Q.   While we're waiting for this document to be called up,

24     Mr. Andan -- well, now you can see it in front of you.  This is a

25     document of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.  The date is

Page 22457

 1     the 28th of July, 1992, and it is entitled:  "Disarmament of Paramilitary

 2     Formations, Order -"

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like us to take

 4     a look at page 3 in the B/C/S version, or rather, the last page in the

 5     English version.  I'm sorry, not this page but the previous page in

 6     English.  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Signed General Ratko Mladic, commander of the Main Staff.

 8     Paragraph 2 of this order states as follows:

 9             [As read] "Individuals and groups which had carried out crimes,

10     looting and other types of criminal acts are not to be included into

11     units ... such persons are to be disarmed, arrested, and criminal

12     proceedings are to be initiated against them in the Serb Republic of

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina army courts regardless of their citizenship."

14             Paragraph 5 says, this is General Mladic's order:

15             "I forbid all paramilitary formations, groups, and individuals in

16     the territory of the SRBiH.  In the future, criminal proceedings should

17     be conducted against commanders, relevant military and territorial

18     organs, and authorities who allow paramilitary organisation and evasion

19     of recruitment and conscription in accordance with the SRBiH Law on the

20     Army."

21             In view of this document, this order of General Mladic's, your

22     contacts with General Mladic, this is my question for you:  Would this

23     document precisely reflect the positions of General Mladic in terms of

24     how paramilitary formations should be dealt with throughout the war?

25        A.   Yes, fully.  I know of several examples from my own practice.

Page 22458

 1     General Mladic issued an order if Arkan and his men moved towards the

 2     Drina that they should be arrested and that they should not be allowed to

 3     enter Republika Srpska at any cost.  At one moment I heard him say, "If

 4     necessary, even use force and fire-arms when Arkan is in question."

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, again can we take

 7     a look at one of the documents used by the Prosecution, P6583.

 8        Q.   This is a criminal report that has to do with the Yellow Wasps.

 9     We'll look at it together.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have page 3 of

11     this document in B/C/S, and I think that it's the same page in English.

12     Yes.  And it says here -- Your Honours, I would like to draw your

13     attention to the first paragraph in English version.

14             In B/C/S can we please have the next page.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The third page.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Yes, page 3.

18             [No interpretation].

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We do not receive English translation.  Could you

20     please restart reading, Mr. Stojanovic.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand.

22        Q.   So this is a document that says the following and, Mr. Witness,

23     could we please take a look at this together.

24             Because of the suspicion that the following persons in a certain

25     period in Karakaj from the 28th of June until the 29th of July, 1992, in

Page 22459

 1     Karakaj --

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, now the

 3     English text starts on this page that you have in front of you.

 4        Q.   As for Zvornik, the group did not belong to the armed forces of

 5     the Serbian Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina," and then that is continued.

 6             After all these years and after all the testimony that you

 7     provided, do you still stand by the following:  That these paramilitary

 8     formations, at the time when they were being arrested and at the time

 9     when they were doing what they were doing, did not belong to the Army of

10     Republika Srpska?

11        A.   Yes, I absolutely stand by that, that they did not belong to the

12     VRS.  Those who were expelled and who returned were returned by certain

13     political personages from Republika Srpska.

14        Q.   While we are still on this page where it says that you are

15     charging them with the following, the commission of the crime of

16     aggravated robbery, Article 151, paragraph 1 of the criminal code of the

17     then-Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, this is what I'm asking

18     you now.  If you remember.  Do you remember that the minimum sentence is

19     five years and the maximum sentence is 20 years in prison for that?

20        A.   Yes, according to the old ZKP, it is 5 to 20 years in prison.

21        Q.   According to the law that was in force then, is that the most

22     serious?  Is that the highest sentence that can be imposed, 20 years in

23     prison?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, could we

Page 22460

 1     please have the first page of this document.  And I would like to

 2     conclude on that note.

 3        Q.   This criminal report, according to this document, was first sent

 4     to the public prosecutor in Zvornik.  Bijeljina was crossed out and then

 5     Zvornik was put there.  Do you know that at that time there was a

 6     military prosecutor's office and a civilian prosecutor's office?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And what's the reason -- yes, I will slow down.  I am sorry about

 9     this.  The reason why this is being sent to the civilian prosecutor's

10     office, is it because the status of these persons was that of civilians

11     not military personnel?  Is that your view?

12        A.   Yes, if they were military personnel, we would have filed this

13     with the military prosecutor's office.  However, they were

14     paramilitaries, they were therefore civilians, and we actually filed this

15     criminal report with the civilian prosecutor's office.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know that the district court in Sabac in

17     1993 started criminal proceedings against Dusko Vuckovic, nicknamed

18     Repic, because of the war crime of persecution of the civilian

19     population, Article 142 of the criminal code of the former SFRY?

20        A.   We sent all the relevant documents to the MUP of Serbia because

21     they were investigating the case of Repic then, and I know that Repic was

22     sentenced to prison.  I cannot remember what year that was and what the

23     actual prison sentence was.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I hope that we can

25     stipulate.  I hope that the Prosecution agrees.  His prison sentence is a

Page 22461

 1     document that -- is stated in a document that we received from the OTP,

 2     and let me just say that the Defence states that he was found guilty and

 3     sentenced to ten years imprisonment and --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  One second, please.

 5             Witness, you said that you didn't know when he was sentenced.  Is

 6     it that you do not know the exact year or don't you know approximately

 7     when?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't give you the

 9     exact year.  But I know that he was sentenced and that he served his

10     sentence.  I've already told you that while we were in Bijeljina, we were

11     requested to submit the relevant documentation.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Was it briefly after he had committed those crimes

13     that there was a prosecution and a sentence?  Or was it long after that

14     or ...?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't answer that question.  I

16     believe that a year or two or perhaps even three years lapsed before his

17     trial was over, I think.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I was not asking about how much time the trial took.

19     I was asking when approximately that judgement was rendered, whether you

20     have any recollection as even to approximately the period when that

21     happened?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, but I believe that

23     the war was still on.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means before December 1995?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, if I knew I would tell you

Page 22462

 1     immediately.  I know that he was sentenced but I don't know when that

 2     happened.  I really can't remember.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the parties assist me approximately about the

 4     year so that it can be put to the witness.

 5             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.  I believe 65 ter 30778 may be of

 6     assistance.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now I'm usually not looking at

 8     65 ter documents --

 9             MS. BIBLES:  Oh, sorry.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- unless they have been admitted into evidence.

11     That's --

12             MS. BIBLES:  I believe that's the document Mr. Stojanovic was

13     referring to.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So you apparently agree on the judgement.

15     Could you tell me, then, what date appears on that judgement.

16             MS. BIBLES:  If I'm reading this correctly, Your Honour, it

17     appears that it would be July 8th of 1996.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  July 8th, 1996.  Thank you.

19             Then, Mr. Stojanovic, anything else?

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Just one more

21     document and one more question.  I would like to call up 65 ter, which

22     also probably has a P number but I don't know it, 01925 is its

23     65 ter number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  For the record, Your Honours, this is

25     Exhibit P6579.

Page 22463

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3        Q.   Sir, this document is what you already saw during the

 4     cross-examination.  Let me first ask you a couple questions and then I

 5     will draw your attention to certain parts of this document.

 6             When it comes to the 1st Bijeljina Light Infantry Brigade, also

 7     known as the Panther Brigade, after having joined the VRS in November, as

 8     you said it yourself, and that was in 1992, was it one of the better

 9     organised and better equipped units in the Army of Republika Srpska?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Did you ever hear that that unit, when it was engaged as a unit

12     of the VRS, participated in any kind of crime?

13        A.   No, I didn't hear any such thing nor was there any police

14     evidence to that effect.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And now can I draw your attention to the document.

16     In the preamble --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You said one document, one question.  I do

18     understand that after the two questions you've put already on this

19     document that you're now entering a new series of questions or?

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  There have

21     been a few questions, but I still need just one more document and this is

22     it.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then please conclude within a reasonable

24     number of minutes.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly.

Page 22464

 1        Q.   In the preamble of this document, it says that the commendation

 2     concerns the achievements in combat and the successful breakup of the

 3     offensive of the 5th Corps of the Muslim army.  And it says the

 4     Combat Group Mauzer from the 1st Light Infantry Brigade in Bijeljina.

 5             When you read this document, would you draw an inference that the

 6     entire brigade was commended or just one part of that brigade known as

 7     Panther?

 8        A.   Only a combat group was commended.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And then I will finish with the next question.

10     You've had an occasion to be a guest on TV in Federal Sarajevo after the

11     war.  On that occasion, did the viewers called in?  Were there any

12     questions about the situations that you are testifying about today?

13        A.   Yes, that was last year.  I appeared on Alfa Television at their

14     invitation.  I arrived in Sarajevo.  And I didn't know that it was a live

15     show where the anchor and I were talking and viewers called in.  There

16     were questions from viewers about the group of Muslim members of the

17     BiH army who surrendered in Bjelasnica and with whom I had immediate

18     contact after that.  I sent them to the Foca prison.  From there they

19     were exchanged, they went to Sarajevo, and after the war, a few of them

20     contacted me and thanked me personally for my conduct towards them.  And

21     I have to say that there were no ugly questions from any of the viewers

22     in that show.  Before I testified here, I had to fill out a questionnaire

23     for The Hague Tribunal where I mentioned my appearance on TV and I

24     mentioned when that was staged.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Adnan, I have no further questions for you.

Page 22465

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If the questions in re-examination triggered any

 2     need for further questions?  If not --

 3             MS. BIBLES:  No, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, is there any document you may have

 5     used which you wish to tender but have not tendered.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Especially 1D2275?

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  It's just

 8     one document that has not been admitted.  And if I'm not mistaken, the

 9     65 ter number is 1D2275.  The other documents have already been admitted

10     into evidence in this case.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2275 receives number D513,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

15             This, then, Mr. Andan, concludes your testimony.  I would like to

16     thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and you had to

17     stay here for a couple of days, although the weather was not as bad as it

18     often is.  I'd like to thank you again for having answered all the

19     questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I

20     wish you a safe return home again.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Would it be a common

22     practice in this court for me to ask you something?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You may ask me something, but if it is about

24     greeting of the accused, which is a question which is not -- okay, then

25     please ask me whatever you want to ask --

Page 22466

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not saying --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's a professional question.

 4     In my police practice over the number of years, I've had a lot of

 5     investigative activities and interviews and we were always forbidden to

 6     put leading questions.  I don't know whether this is the practice of this

 7     Court as well.  However, during the cross-examination of the Prosecutor,

 8     I've had several leading questions which I don't think is in compliance

 9     with court practice.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, as a matter of fact, it is.  In the common law

11     tradition leading questions are usually admissible but in

12     cross-examination only.  So you noticed it right, that most of the

13     leading questions were put to you in cross-examination which is

14     acceptable in that system.  Quite willing always perhaps at other moments

15     to discuss legal matters but --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I think I should give you a brief answer.  You

18     may follow the usher.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Please don't hold it against us.

21     The two of us come from the same legal system, hence our questions,

22     dilemmas, and prejudices.

23                           [The witness withdrew]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?  No

25     protective measures, the next witness being Mr. Guzina.

Page 22467

 1             Ms. Bibles.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, may Mr. Traldi and I be excused and

 3     leave you in capable other hands.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you mean the hands of Mr. Jeremy.

 5             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour, exactly.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, Mr. Guzina, the Rules

 8     require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out

 9     to you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12                           WITNESS:  SVETOZAR GUZINA

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, please be seated.

15             Mr. Guzina, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  You'll

16     find him to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

21        A.   Good afternoon.

22        Q.   Could you please tell us your name for the record, but slowly.

23        A.   Svetozar Guzina.

24        Q.   Have you provided a statement to the Mladic Defence team about

25     the war events?

Page 22468

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up

 3     65 ter 1D01620.

 4        Q.   Sir, you can see a page with your personal details and a

 5     signature.  My question is whether these are your personal details and

 6     whether this signature is your signature?

 7        A.   Yes, this is information about me.  This is my signature and the

 8     date is 15 May 2014.  That's when I signed the document in Visegrad.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now can we go to the last

11     page of the same document.

12        Q.   The document in front of you contains a witness confirmation,

13     according to which you have provided the statement voluntarily, fully

14     aware that it could be used before this Tribunal.  Is this your

15     signature?

16        A.   Yes, this is my signature.

17        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today as

18     are contained in your statement after having made a solemn declaration

19     before this Court, would you still adhere to your entire statement?

20        A.   Yes, I would adhere to my entire statement.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

22     tender the witness statement into evidence.  The 65 ter number is

23     1D01620.

24             MR. JEREMY:  No objection.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you submitted two versions of the

Page 22469

 1     statement, one confidential, the other publicly with some redactions.

 2     Which is which?

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.  I

 4     would kindly draw your attention to paragraph 8 in the witness statement

 5     and one of the footnotes says that the reason why we did that was the

 6     witness's request to -- not to broadcast the name mentioned in here for

 7     the reasons stated in the statement.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's turn into private session for a second.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22470

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11  Pages 22470-22471 redacted.  Private session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 22472

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

18             Document 1D1620 is marked for identification under number D515

19     and under seal -- 514, I misspoke.  514, under seal, MFI'd.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22             Could we please admit as associated exhibits the following

23     documents.  According to 65 ter they are 1D02123.

24             MR. JEREMY:  No objection, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

Page 22473

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2123 receives number D515,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  D515 is admitted.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Then I would like to tender

 5     document 65 ter 1D02 -- actually, 1D02124.

 6             MR. JEREMY:  No objection.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2124 receives number D516,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  D516 is admitted.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Then I would like to tender

12     65 ter 1D02125.

13             MR. JEREMY:  No objection.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2125 receives number D517,

16     Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

18             Last one, Mr. Stojanovic.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And finally, 1D02122.

20             MR. JEREMY:  No objection.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2122 receives number D518,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D518 is admitted.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, I

Page 22474

 1     would now like to read out a summary of the witness's statement.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We have not received a

 3     copy in writing.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Svetozar Guzina, until the war

 5     broke out, lived as a restaurant owner in Sokolovic Kolonija.  He was an

 6     eye-witness, an active participant in interethnic conflicts and armed

 7     incidents in his neighbourhood.

 8             He speaks about specific personal knowledge concerning the arming

 9     of the Muslims as early as spring 1991 until the war broke out.  After he

10     was forced to leave his home, he came to Ilidza and joined the Army of

11     Republika Srpska.  He became commander of the 5th Battalion and, after

12     the reorganisation, the commander of the 1st Battalion of the

13     Ilidza Brigade.  He held that duty until the end of the war.

14             The area of responsibility of his battalion was the area of

15     Nedzarici.  Throughout the period of the war, his order [as interpreted]

16     had strict orders from the superior command that they should not fire at

17     civilians.  He personally obeyed that order and carried it through in his

18     orders to his subordinates.  He does not know of a single incident when

19     civilians or civilian targets were targeted intentionally.

20             He speaks about his experience when he had the positions of the

21     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the other side of the front line, and they

22     were a legitimate military objective.  He says that the Army of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina, when fighting against his battalion, used vehicles on

24     which mortars or machine-guns were mounted.

25             Also, he will testify about his view of F9 and he says that it is

Page 22475

 1     an incomprehensible war situation; namely, that a civilian person at the

 2     time of fighting is moving in front of positions on the front line on the

 3     other side of the street, claiming that there were no sniper positions at

 4     that location.

 5             Finally, he testifies about humanitarian convoys and civilians

 6     moving through the area of responsibility of his battalion, and he says

 7     that he had orders from the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska to

 8     allow unhindered movement of convoys of humanitarian aid.

 9             Maybe I should start my questions after a break.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We could do that.

11             Then we take a break first, a break of 20 minutes.

12             Witness, we'd like to see you back at 20 minutes to 2.00.

13             And most likely cross-examination will then start at -- for the

14     last 15 minutes, Mr. Stojanovic, I take it.

15             The witness may follow the usher.

16             We resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18                           --- Recess taken at 1.18 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 1.42 p.m.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy.

21             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I apologise for not letting you know

22     sooner, but just to make you aware that this witness received an

23     admonishment pursuant to Rule 90(E) in the Karadzic case.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think we discussed this thoroughly and we

25     leave it -- not knowing what questions will be put to the witnesses, we

Page 22476

 1     leave it in the hands of the calling party whether or not they consider

 2     it wise to give a 90(E) warning.  In most of the cases, as a matter of

 3     fact, there was no reason to believe that questions came even close to

 4     what could create a 90(E) situation.  Therefore, we -- if Mr. Stojanovic

 5     would further encourage the Chamber to give a 90(E) warning, we would do

 6     it, but not at this moment.

 7             Further, D514 is admitted into evidence.  It is the unredacted

 8     version of the statement.  Now, the redacted version -- it's admitted

 9     under seal.  The redacted version is already public as an attachment to

10     the 92 ter motion.  And since it's only a minor redaction, the public

11     will not -- will have an opportunity to ...

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, when I -- I was unclear.  I started a sentence

14     and didn't finish it.  The unredacted version of the statement is

15     admitted under seal and is D514.  The redacted version was an attachment

16     to the 92 ter motion and is available to the public.

17             Then please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I'd

19     like to call up 1D517, D517 that is.

20        Q.   Witness, I'll ask you to look at the map.  This is a map of

21     Sarajevo, of course.  Could you please help me and mark some of the

22     places that we might find interesting.  In paragraph 38 of your

23     statement, you mention the old pensioners' home as the highest or tallest

24     building in Nedzarici and that's where UNPROFOR troops were billeted and

25     where their observation posts were.

Page 22477

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to

 2     provide the witness with a pen so that the witness may mark the facility

 3     where UNPROFOR had its observation post.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How do I erase what I just marked

 5     because my marking should be a bit more to the left?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The usher will assist you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This would be the place, more or

 8     less.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   And now you have just made a blue circle.  Can you put the word

11     "UNPROFOR" or just the two letters, UN, next to that circle?

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Thank you.  According to your recollection, how far was that

14     facility from the institute for the blind children, approximately?

15        A.   Some 200 to 250 metres.  Or perhaps even less than that.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And now, in June 1994, when it comes to that

17     facility, was there an observation post there also, an UNPROFOR

18     observation post?

19        A.   Yes.  UNPROFOR took that building in late 1993 or early 1994.  It

20     was at the Serbian request because Muslim forces always provoked us and

21     lied about fire being opened from our positions.  With the consent of the

22     brigade commander and the corps commander, we invited UNPROFOR to take up

23     that facility to be able to observe the entire situation and to become

24     aware of the lies uttered by the Muslims.  And those lies were told all

25     the time before they installed themselves on the roof of the old

Page 22478

 1     pensioners' home.

 2        Q.   How far was the old pensioners' home from the front line?

 3        A.   If you look at the map, you will see that it is on the very front

 4     line because our positions were on the left-hand side of that street

 5     which ran through Nedzarici at the time.  Effectively some 50 metres at

 6     the most.

 7        Q.   In this part of the defence sector of your battalion, what was

 8     the distance between the positions of the BiH Army and the features that

 9     they occupied and your positions?

10        A.   The positions of the 1st Battalion in this area were on one side

11     of the street, whereas the Muslim forces were on the other side of that

12     same street.  We were in the houses on one side of the street, which was

13     our side, whether the -- the Muslim troops were in the buildings that

14     were some 10-storeys high in the neighbourhood known as Dobrinja V.

15     Those were very difficult positions.  And I can say that the most

16     difficult positions during the war were those in Nedzarici.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Since you lived in Sarajevo before the war, when it

18     comes to Alipasino Polje, Svrakino Selo, where was the police station

19     before the war and during the war?

20        A.   I was in that police station on several occasions.  My neighbour,

21     Cedo Fabijancic [phoen] worked there.  It would be across the street from

22     the geodezik institute.

23        Q.   Can you make a mark?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we first of all slow down and make a break

25     between question and answer, and answer and question, otherwise your

Page 22479

 1     words will be lost.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  The witness marked

 4     or made a rather large circle.

 5        Q.   I would kindly ask you to put letters PS next to that circle.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   The letters will stand for the police station.  Thank you.  And

 8     while we have this exhibit on the screen, could you please tell me who

 9     was it who held the positions immediately behind your battalion, behind

10     the airport runway?

11        A.   Muslim forces, in Butmir neighbourhood.  According to

12     intelligence, that battalion faced my positions; i.e., the positions of

13     the 1st Battalion of the Ilidza Brigade.

14        Q.   During those war years, did you suffer from infantry and

15     artillery fire opened from those positions of the BiH Army?  Were you

16     targeted from there?

17        A.   Yes, from the very first day of the war we were targeted from

18     Butmir across the airport runway.  It was both artillery and infantry

19     fire.  We know that the artillery of that battalion in Butmir was in the

20     institute.  They constantly shelled our positions, the positions of my

21     battalion.

22        Q.   I will slow down while I wait for the interpretation.  And now I

23     will ask you to again take the pen and make a circle around the institute

24     from which you were targeted.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 22480

 1        Q.   And also draw arrows towards your positions --

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   -- that were targeted from that sector.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And now could you put letters AV, standing for the

 6     direction of the artillery fire you were exposed to, above the three

 7     arrows that you draw.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now, Your Honours, I would

11     like to tender the marked map into the evidence of this case.

12             MR. JEREMY:  No objection.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  This document D517, as marked by the witness,

15     receives number D519, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  And is admitted into

17     evidence.

18             However, Mr. Stojanovic, if I look at the basis of this map, 517,

19     as we started with, markings by the witness are -- I see here and there

20     a -- not really a hand-made marking but apparently something.  So I'm not

21     questioning at this moment this one but rather 517.  What exactly is

22     found there?  The witness said something about it, but whether these are

23     clear markings is still to be seen.  Perhaps you could later inform us

24     about that.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I'd like to

Page 22481

 1     draw your attention to a paragraph.  Please bear with me.  I'm looking

 2     for the relevant paragraph in the witness's statement.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I found it where it is when he said he marked

 4     certain positions.  But whether an oval is the same --

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- as a square and a -- I do not know exactly.  For

 7     the -- some of the features it's even unclear what building it is.  I

 8     mean, for the Oslobodjenje and the students' home it seems to be pretty

 9     clear.  But, for example, what is the case with the feature to the left

10     of the Oslobodjenje building is -- what exactly is to be found in

11     Stupsko Brdo is pretty unclear.  I leave it to you perhaps

12     to [overlapping speakers] --

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Witness, while we still have the map in front of us, could you

15     please tell the Chamber about the facility left to the Oslobodjenje

16     building?  It is marked with a rectangle.  What is it?

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to repeat and

18     come closer to the microphone.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your answer and speak a bit

20     closer into the microphone.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Next to the Oslobodjenje building,

22     there was a new old pensioners' home.  It was a multi-coloured building

23     and we called it a parrot or a parrot building, papagajka [phoen], I

24     believe that that was that.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 22482

 1        Q.   Was that the position from which you were exposed by BiH Army

 2     fire?

 3        A.   Yes, continuously from day one.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And now can you tell me about the rectangular

 5     facility somewhat below from the parrot building in the area of

 6     Stupsko Brdo?

 7        A.   Are we talking about the school of theology?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  No, apparently we're not because the theological

 9     faculty is a little bit further down and circled with an oval.  I'm

10     talking about the rectangular where the letters BR from Stupsko Brdo are

11     found within that rectangular.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those were Muslim positions, so

13     this could be the so-called Betonara [phoen].

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Would that be the position from which you were exposed to

16     BiH Army units' fire throughout the war?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And now as to the facilities --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  If I read in the statement:

20             "I have used red rectangles to mark the dominant features under

21     Muslim control facing our zone."

22             And -- yes, but I would like to know the specific one I referred

23     to, that is, the rectangle where the letters BR are found within that

24     rectangle.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now I understand much better.

Page 22483

 1     The positions marked with rectangles were Muslim positions which we

 2     targeted throughout the war in response to their constant fire from the

 3     students' residential home, the furniture building -- factory building

 4     and so on and so forth.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Now what is then the position?  Could you describe

 6     that?  Was that the factory building, was it the -- the rectangle where

 7     we find the letters BR from Brdo within the rectangle, what kind of

 8     facility was that?  What -- the position was housed in what or next to

 9     what?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a concrete building, a

11     three-storey building.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  It was --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And it wasn't --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it was not the concrete factory.  It was not

15     the Betonirka, but it was just a concrete building.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, to the right of that there is an oval, next to

18     where you marked AV.  What does this oval exactly refer to?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The oval shape represents the

20     barracks in Nedzarici.  It was under the control of Serb forces.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, to say that it's very, very clear in

22     paragraph 38 is another matter.  But let's move on.

23             This one was tendered, I think?  I think it's admitted already.

24     Madam Registrar?

25             Then let's move on, Mr. Stojanovic.

Page 22484

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 2             And now I would like to call up 65 ter 11152.

 3        Q.   Witness, in your statement you described orders by the superior

 4     command with regard to the transport of humanitarian aid.  I'm asking you

 5     this:  When it comes to the defence sector of your battalion, were there

 6     any routes taken up by humanitarian convoys in order to reach Sarajevo?

 7        A.   Yes.  We constantly let convoys through into the city of Sarajevo

 8     across our lines of defence.

 9        Q.   Was there a standing order by the Main Staff throughout the war

10     to comply with the procedure and to allow an unhindered passage of

11     humanitarian convoys?

12        A.   Yes, there was a procedure in place and throughout the war we

13     allowed convoys through the Nedzarici check-point to go to Sarajevo.

14     However, they had to comply with the procedure and they had to be

15     announced.

16        Q.   In the document that you see before you at the moment, it says --

17     and the document was issued by the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

18     on the 15th of May, 1993, it is titled:  "An order for unhindered passage

19     of humanitarian convoys."  In the preamble, it says:

20             "On the basis of directive by the Presidency of Republika Srpska,

21     in order to comply with the cease-fire I order," and then what follows is

22     the body of the text, where it says:

23             "... ensure undisturbed passing and protection of the delivery,

24     equipment, and personnel that is to help the civilian population of the

25     opposing side."

Page 22485

 1             Under 2, it says that there is a ban on abuse.  Under 3, full

 2     compliance with Geneva Conventions.  And under 4, which is not marked

 3     with number 4 but it is the last paragraph, where it says that it should

 4     be ensured that all units and complete personnel of the SRK army get

 5     familiarised with this and respect this order.

 6             My question is this:  Do you remember whether you had an occasion

 7     to see an order of this kind imposing on all the units of the SRK this

 8     type of conduct?

 9        A.   I am familiar with this order.  This was implemented.  Every

10     single soldier was familiar with this order.  Convoys were allowed to go

11     through our check-points without any problems, save for perhaps one or

12     two that were not duly announced.

13        Q.   Did you also witness situations when convoys contained things

14     that were not announced, some of which were military equipment and

15     similar things?

16        A.   Yes.  At the beginning of the war, when I was an operative in the

17     Ilidza Brigade, a convoy that was en route from Ilidza to Butmir was

18     stopped near the health institute and it was quite by incident that it

19     was noted that there were some crates below the containers.  When we

20     lifted the containers, we found a lot of weapons which were carefully

21     hidden between the containers en route to Butmir.  Obviously, we seized

22     all that, and after that, we became suspicious of UNPROFOR and all of

23     their ensuing convoys.  That's why we were very careful and we checked

24     carefully the contents of those convoys.

25        Q.   What was your personal relationship like with representatives of

Page 22486

 1     UNPROFOR?

 2        A.   Well, this is what I can say.  It was correct, especially with

 3     the liaison officers who liaised with me every day.  On orders from the

 4     Main Staff and the corps, my duty was to talk to the liaison officer from

 5     UNPROFOR whenever necessary, so we had constant contact.

 6             I can actually take this opportunity to commend UNPROFOR.  They

 7     did help me a great deal in one particular situation, because they let me

 8     know that the Muslim forces were digging two tunnels towards my

 9     positions.  The second one was at Stupsko Brdo towards my positions near

10     the barracks.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  And the first one the interpreter did not hear.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This really surprised me, this

13     report that I received from them, very much so, because it came from the

14     military observer from Jordan.  But the man, probably when he saw what

15     the situation was and when he saw how difficult the situation of my

16     battalion was and how hard it was for me too, he informed me that the

17     Muslims are building a tunnel, that they are digging a tunnel, that I

18     should be careful.

19             And as for this one tunnel at Stupsko Brdo, they actually crossed

20     my lines, they killed two of my men and wounded some, and fighting for

21     that position went on for an entire day.  Only when a tank and APC were

22     brought in I managed to resolve that position and to regain my position.

23     It was in Serb hands again.

24             Whereas the second tunnel --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, I don't think, as a matter of fact, that

Page 22487

 1     the tunnels were the subject of questioning.  You delved in that area.

 2             Next question, Mr. Stojanovic.  You've used your time, by the

 3     way, but could you see whether there is one last question.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [No interpretation]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We do not receive English.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Can you hear the English now?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we now hear you.

 8             Could you please restart your question.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  That will be my last

10     question.

11        Q.   Mr. Witness, during those four years of the war, how many members

12     of your battalion were killed and how many were wounded?

13        A.   In the 1st Battalion of the Ilidza Brigade, 167 soldiers were

14     killed.  About 400, and perhaps even a bit more, were wounded either once

15     or a few times.  I myself was wounded four times.

16        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I have no further questions of you.  And now

17     it is the Prosecutor who will be putting his questions.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's still to be seen.  I don't know whether

19     it makes sense, Mr. Jeremy, to start.  I would have one or two questions

20     for the witness which I perhaps could put and then you will be

21     cross-examined tomorrow.

22             Witness, you were just shown an order consisting of three parts

23     about the passage of humanitarian goods and the third one was about the

24     Geneva Conventions.  And you said every soldier was familiar with this

25     order and it was implemented.  Was every soldier also familiar with the

Page 22488

 1     third paragraph which is about the Geneva Conventions, were they aware of

 2     the contents of these conventions?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think that everyone was

 4     aware.  At the very outset, at the very beginning of the war, there was

 5     this flyer that had come from the Presidency of the Republika Srpska, the

 6     President, Dr. Radovan Karadzic, and that was what was written; namely,

 7     that the Geneva Conventions should be respected, and if people were taken

 8     prisoner, that the rights of prisoners, POWs, should be observed, and

 9     that civilians should not be fired at.  So all soldiers of

10     Republika Srpska knew that, how they were supposed to behave at any given

11     point in time.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And you were in a command position, did you have

13     thorough knowledge of these conventions and -- beyond what you just told

14     us?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, roughly put.  I mean, I was

16     aware, yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Because if you say that you were instructed that

18     prisoners of war should be -- the rights of prisoners of war should be

19     observed, at least what you would need to know is what the rights of

20     prisoners of war are.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, to give him water, to give

22     him food, to protect him from further suffering.  If he is wounded to

23     take him to the hospital, to hand him over to further organs for their

24     processing.  That was our task and that is what we did.

25             I have two cases that I can tell you about.  Muslim children from

Page 22489

 1     Butmir crossed over to my position and they were safely returned, four of

 2     them.  Also, there was this Muslim soldier, I know his name and surname,

 3     Cigic Alija, he was a neighbour of mine --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I interrupt you.  Muslim children were treated

 5     in accordance with rules on prisoners of war?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I told you what happened in

 7     my situation and then you will decide whether this was right or not.

 8     These Muslim children were --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I'm more puzzled by your understanding of what a

10     prisoner of war is, because I've not heard ever of children being treated

11     as prisoners of war under the regulations.  It's -- at least it raises

12     some doubt as to your knowledge of what a prisoner of war is.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Obviously we haven't understood

14     each other.  I am just giving you an example, something that happened.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But an example --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An example of what I did.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But my questions were about the rights of

18     prisoners of war, and if you give as an example on how you treat a child,

19     then this may raise some doubts as to your understanding of what a

20     prisoner of war is.

21             Could I ask you, could you tell me briefly because in paragraph 3

22     a distinction is made between the convention of the law on customs of

23     war -- of a land war, 1907, and the Geneva Conventions.  Could you

24     briefly explain to me where is approximately the difference between this

25     1907 convention on the law of land and the Geneva Conventions of 1949?

Page 22490

 1     Could you tell me approximately where is to be found under one -- in one

 2     and what is to be found in the others?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, I am not an officer who

 4     attended officers school.  I am a man who is in the catering business,

 5     who owned a restaurant of his own, who completed a school for catering

 6     and tourism, and I didn't really deal with such matters.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The only thing that I'm exploring is what it means

 8     if one says this was fully implied if you do not know exactly what it is

 9     about.  Now, I'm not blaming you, I'm just asking you whether you could

10     give me what is to be found under one and what is to be found in the

11     other.  Apparently, you can't tell me, and there may be good reasons for

12     that, I was not asking yet about the reasons.

13             So do I understand your answer to be that you could not tell us

14     what approximately is found in the one and what is approximately found in

15     the other?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

18             Could -- I would like to -- we will adjourn for the day and I

19     would like to ask you to come back tomorrow morning at 9.30.  And

20     meanwhile, I instruct you that you should not speak with anyone about

21     your testimony, whether that is testimony you have given today or whether

22     it's testimony still to be given tomorrow.  And then we'd like to see you

23     back tomorrow morning.  You may follow the usher.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We will adjourn for the day and we will resume

Page 22491

 1     tomorrow, Wednesday, the 11th of June, at 9.30 in the morning, in this

 2     same courtroom, I.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day

 5                           of June, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.

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