Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22492

 1                           Wednesday, 11 June 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 8     number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             No preliminaries were announced, therefore the witness can be

11     escorted into the courtroom.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Guzina.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we start, I'd like to remind you that you are

16     still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of

17     your testimony.  You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Jeremy.  You'll find

18     him to your right.  Mr. Jeremy is counsel for the Prosecution.

19             Mr. Jeremy, please proceed.

20                           WITNESS:  SVETOZAR GUZINA [Resumed]

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23             Good morning, Your Honours.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:

25        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Guzina.

Page 22493

 1        A.   Good morning.

 2        Q.   At various points today I'll be referring you to parts of your

 3     statement, D514.

 4             MR. JEREMY:  Therefore, I would ask the court officer to provide

 5     a clean copy of that statement to you, please.

 6        Q.   Mr. Guzina, your nickname is Sesa, correct?

 7        A.   Sesa or Seso.

 8        Q.   And that's S-e-s-a, correct?

 9        A.   The sound is s-h, sh.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Between paragraphs 6 and 32 of your witness

11     statement, D514, it appears you're discussing events that transpired

12     between February and June 1992?

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What paragraph?

14             MR. JEREMY:  Between paragraph 6 and 32.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             MR. JEREMY:

17        Q.   Mr. Guzina, I'll start with a few questions relating to those

18     paragraphs in your statement.  Turning firstly to paragraph 20 --

19             MR. JEREMY:  And that's e-court page 5.

20        Q.   -- you mention that an Enver Hodzic and his son came to the

21     Serbian barricade by a swimming pool.  Now, is it correct that this

22     swimming pool is located to the south of Ilidza near a park and an

23     athletics field?

24        A.   It was a football field, the rest is correct.

25             MR. JEREMY:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P3, and

Page 22494

 1     I'd like to go to e-court page 78 of that document.  It's the

 2     Sarajevo map book.

 3        Q.   And, Mr. Guzina, as this is coming up, it's a map that depicts

 4     the areas of Ilidza, Sokolovic Kolonija, Butmir, and most of the airport.

 5             MR. JEREMY:  And I'm looking for e-court page 78.  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Mr. Guzina, directing your attention to the main road that runs

 7     south from Ilidza towards Sokolovic Kolonija, is it correct that the

 8     Serbian barricade you referred to in paragraph 20 of your statement is

 9     next to the swimming pool that we see located on this route?  Just left

10     of the centre of the picture as we see it.

11        A.   Yes, at the intersection.

12        Q.   Taking the pen that you used yesterday, which the usher will

13     assist you with, could you please draw a circle around the location of

14     the Serbian barricade on this map.

15        A.   I think it's about here somewhere.

16             MR. JEREMY:  And, Your Honours, I tender that image as marked by

17     the witness as the next Prosecution exhibit.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document as marked by the witness receives number

20     P6587, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

22             MR. JEREMY:

23        Q.   Mr. Guzina, in paragraph 11 of your statement, e-court page 3 in

24     the English and 4 in the B/C/S, you mention the Ilidza Municipal Assembly

25     chairperson Radomir Kezunovic, and a conversation that you had with him

Page 22495

 1     sometime in March 1992.  Now, it's correct, isn't, that Mr. Kezunovic was

 2     the president of the Assembly of the Serbian municipality of Ilidza at

 3     this time?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And it's also correct, isn't it, that the Serbs from Ilidza began

 6     organising political structures of their own prior to January 1992?

 7        A.   They started organising themselves at Ilidza as soon as the

 8     elections were over.

 9        Q.   And what was the date that the elections were over?

10        A.   Well, I was not a politician.  I don't know.

11             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 65 ter 03638.

12        Q.   And, sir, while this is being brought up, I'll tell you it's a

13     decision dated 3 January 1992 from Mr. Kezunovic, and it proclaims the

14     establishment of the Serb municipality Municipal Assembly of Ilidza.

15             MR. JEREMY:  If we could go to page 2 in this document.

16        Q.   Witness, we see this is signed by Mr. Kezunovic.  And can you

17     confirm at this time, on the 3rd of January, 1992, he was the president

18     of the Assembly of the Serbian municipality of Ilidza?

19        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I don't see why you are questioning me about

20     this.  At this time I was not in the SDS nor was I part of any

21     authorities.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not for you to question the reasons why these

23     questions are put to you.  Answer them.  If you do know, please tell us.

24     If you don't know, tell us as well.  But it's the Prosecutor, under the

25     supervision of the Bench, which considers what questions are there to be

Page 22496

 1     put.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

 3             MR. JEREMY:

 4        Q.   Mr. Guzina, I will repeat --

 5        A.   I don't know.

 6             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go to the first page of the document.

 7        Q.   In the preamble to this decision there is a reference to the will

 8     of the Serbian people from the area of the Ilidza municipality expressed

 9     at a plebiscite on the 9th and 10th of November, 1991.  Mr. Guzina, you

10     would agree that this shows that, in fact, the Serbs from Ilidza were

11     taking steps to organise political structures of their own prior to

12     January 1992, yes?

13        A.   It's possible that the Serbs from the SDS ticket implemented

14     that, but I was a caterer.  I had my own restaurant.  These things didn't

15     interest me at all.

16             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I'd tender that document as the next

17     Prosecution exhibit.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 3638 receives number P6588,

20     Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. JEREMY:

23        Q.   Mr. Guzina, it's also correct, isn't it, that the Serbs in Ilidza

24     began arming citizens of Serbian nationality during 1991; correct?

25        A.   I don't remember.  Could you explain this to me in more detail?

Page 22497

 1        Q.   Let's take a look at a document.

 2             MR. JEREMY:  Could the Prosecution please see Exhibit P3792.

 3        Q.   Mr. Guzina, coming up on the screen before you is a report by the

 4     public security station of Ilidza.  It's dated the 20th of September,

 5     1993, but it relates to -- in part to events in Ilidza during 1991.

 6             MR. JEREMY:  If we could go to page 2, please.

 7        Q.   And we see in the third paragraph down a reference to:

 8             "At the beginning of 1991, during illegal meetings organised by

 9     Kovac Tomislav, Commander of the Ilidza Public Security Station at the

10     time, policemen of Serbian nationality were informed that the war option

11     for realisation of national interests was being increasingly promoted.

12     Aside from the obligation that Serbs gather up and prepare for war

13     through those meetings that took place in Dobrinja --"

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You're reading, Mr. Jeremy.  Speed of speech goes

15     up.

16             MR. JEREMY:  I'll slow down, Your Honours.

17        Q.   "... Ilidza and Blazuj, it was also agreed that intense activity

18     should be undertaken to arm citizens of Serbian nationality."

19             Firstly, Mr. Guzina, you mention Tomislav Kovac in paragraph 11

20     of your statement.  You were familiar with this person, correct?

21        A.   Yes, he was the commander of the police station at Ilidza, or

22     chief, whatever it's called.

23        Q.   And you would agree that this document shows that actions were

24     being taken to arm citizens of Serbian nationality during 1991; correct?

25        A.   Well, at that time all sorts of stories circulated.  I'm telling

Page 22498

 1     you what I know.  At that time, I was not part of these structures and I

 2     didn't know about many things because I was running a restaurant that was

 3     patronised by Serbs and Muslims and Croats alike, and people were good

 4     friends, staying up until all hours.  I can only tell you about the time

 5     when the first roadblock or barricade went up in my area, my

 6     neighbourhood, Sokolovic Kolonija.

 7             MR. JEREMY:  I'm finished with that document.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put one question to the witness.

 9             Mr. Guzina, did you receive a weapon at this time-period?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the barricade that I

11     described, yes.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What kind of weapon?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An automatic rifle.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  From whom?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] M-56.  From Captain Jaslar, the man

16     I described as representing this League for Yugoslavia.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Have you any recollection when, I mean a specific

18     day or week or month, this hand-over took place?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I can't remember the

20     date.  But certainly in that period.  After the barricade.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because before that I wasn't even

23     interested.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one or more questions for the witness as

Page 22499

 1     well, Mr. Jeremy.

 2             You said you were not interested in arming or being armed before

 3     the barricades appeared.  Could you tell us when did you observe or hear

 4     about Muslims arming themselves?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Long before the Serbs.  I was

 6     running a restaurant and in a restaurant you get a lot of information,

 7     you hear people talking, you hear about many things, so I heard from the

 8     patrons that were Muslims were organising themselves.  And after the

 9     Muslims did, they started organising themselves too.  I heard about these

10     things but I was not a part of them.  Still, I cannot tell you the exact

11     date.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Exact date, approximately, month?  Month, year?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1990, 1991, that's when the whole

14     story began.  As for the month, I really can't.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You said it was before the Serbs started arming

16     themselves.  A minute ago you told us that as a restaurant owner, you had

17     no idea about arming, et cetera.  That you even provoked, to some extent,

18     Mr. Jeremy saying, "Give me the details, and then I'll discuss it further

19     with you."

20             Now, in your statement, paragraph 26, you give all kind of

21     details about who was arming, when, and the League of Yugoslavs, at the

22     time you thought this was all the best option.  Not a word about the SDS.

23     How is it that you know the details about others arming, although you

24     mentioned that the Serbs armed themselves as well, but there is not a

25     word about who did it?

Page 22500

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at that time people talked.

 2     I was nonstop in the restaurant, and Muslims, my friends, told me --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say "at that time," I would like to know more

 4     about what time you're referring to.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was more than 20 years ago.  I'm

 6     talking about 1991.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  In 1991, what did you hear?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that the Muslims were

 9     organising themselves, arming themselves, and Alija Izetbegovic, the

10     president of Bosnia-Herzegovina, visited a neighbour of mine three houses

11     down, Enver Hodzic.  There was a lot of talk in the restaurant between

12     the Serbs and Muslims.  We exchanged information, we who didn't want war.

13     It's difficult to understand now after so much time and after the war,

14     but that's how it was, and nobody expected a war of such intensity at

15     that time.  We just continued being friends, talking what to do, Muslims,

16     Croats, and Serbs.  It's difficult to put it in words now.  I'm telling

17     the truth, I'm telling things as they really were on the ground at that

18     time.  And people, after a few drinks in a restaurant, talk even more.  I

19     didn't see it with my own eyes but I heard it.  That's how I put together

20     this chronology.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  My question to you was what exactly you heard.  I

22     haven't -- you have explained to us that there was a lot of talk and that

23     you're telling us the truth, et cetera, but what you heard is apparently

24     rather vague.  Now let me follow-up.

25             You said it was in 1991 that you heard these things.  Did you

Page 22501

 1     hear about Serbs arming themselves or being armed also at that -- well,

 2     let's say, in the beginning of 1991?  Or did that come later?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A few months later.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The document that was just put to you which

 5     describes what happened in this respect states that it was in the

 6     beginning of 1991.  I just put that to you so that you can comment on it

 7     if you wish to.

 8             I have one other question which is totally different area.  The

 9     son of Enver Hodzic who came with his father, what was his age?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before this answer, let me just say

11     that Sokolovic Kolonija is not on this list of armament.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I was talking about the line stating:

13             "At the beginning of 1991, during illegal meetings organised by

14     Kovac Tomislav ... policemen of the Serb nationality were informed that

15     the war option for realisation of national interests was being

16     increasingly promoted."

17             And then it continues how citizens were to be armed.  That is

18     what I refer to, and whether you are, let me see -- and do I understand

19     that your village is not within the Ilidza municipality?  Or is it?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I claim with full responsibility

21     that I did not attend a single one of these meetings.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No one said you were.  This report is about arming

23     also in Ilidza.  You told us that your village was not mentioned here.

24     My question was whether your village is in Ilidza, yes or no.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, it's not a village.  It

Page 22502

 1     is a neighbourhood that was in the municipality of Ilidza.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so if Ilidza is mentioned as an area where

 3     weapons should be distributed, then your neighbourhood is not excluded

 4     from that although not specifically mentioned.  That's apparently where

 5     we are.

 6             Then we --

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And then my other question remains still unanswered.

 9     That is:  What is the age of the son of Enver Hodzic you refer to who

10     came with his father to Ilidza?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly.  Say, 15 or

12     16.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  So you wanted him to bring his son in order to

14     guarantee your safety and you ask him to bring a 15- or 16-year-old son.

15     Is that well understood from your statement in paragraph 20?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

19             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just a second, Mr. Jeremy.

21             Can I just see the front page of this document on the screen.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

23             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24        Q.   Mr. Guzina, were you a part of the Ilidza Territorial Defence by

25     March 1992?

Page 22503

 1        A.   After leaving Sokolovic Kolonija, I became a member of the

 2     Territorial Defence.

 3        Q.   And what was the date that you left Sokolovic Kolonija?

 4        A.   I cannot say exactly.  I think it was the beginning of April.

 5     Now, was it the 4th or the 5th, I don't know.  I cannot give you an

 6     answer as accurate as that.

 7        Q.   So that's April 1992, correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. JEREMY:  Could the Prosecution please see Exhibit P3030.

10        Q.   Mr. Guzina, while this is being brought up, I can tell you it's a

11     2nd Military District document dated March 1992.  And it's a report based

12     on the assessment of the situation in the territory of Bosnia and

13     Herzegovina.

14             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please go to page 11 in the English and

15     16 in the B/C/S of this document.  Could we focus in on number 6, Ilidza.

16        Q.   Mr. Guzina, this is a list that details enlisted Serb volunteers

17     by municipality.  Item 6 indicates that there were 2.800 individuals

18     listed as Serb volunteers in Ilidza.  At this time, you were one of those

19     2.800 volunteers; correct?  Or you became one shortly after at the start

20     of the April 1992.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, would it not be accurate to say that the

22     document dates from the 20th of March.  That's at least what I find on

23     the first of 12 pages.

24             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what type of

Page 22504

 1     volunteers you're talking about.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you a volunteer at that time of whatever kind

 3     in Ilidza?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember before the war that

 5     there was this proclamation of the Army of Yugoslavia that all reserve

 6     soldiers should come to the barracks in Lukavica.  Now, whether this

 7     relates to that or -- I don't know what volunteers are the ones mentioned

 8     here.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you go there?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So you never actively acted in any way, either by

12     reporting yourself, in whatever way, as a volunteer on or before the

13     20th of March, 1992, in Ilidza?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I explain so that it would be

15     clear to you?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would first please answer my question, then

17     you can explain.  And I add to my question:  Act as a volunteer such that

18     the military district could consider you to be among whatever kind of

19     volunteers.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was not a volunteer.  Not a

21     volunteer of any kind.  It was only after the check-point in

22     Sokolovic Kolonija that I started asking around, asking people in the

23     SDS, Zara Hrnjez [phoen] specifically, who was the representative of the

24     SDS in Sokolovic Kolonija, asking how to go on.  Until that period of

25     time, I did not take part in anything.

Page 22505

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

 2             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 3        Q.   Mr. Guzina, in paragraph 19 of your statement --

 4             MR. JEREMY:  And I'm finished with this document.  Thank you.

 5        Q.   Mr. Guzina, paragraph 19 of your statement you refer to a

 6     delegation that was made up yourself, Prstojevic, and Lukic.  Here you're

 7     referring to a Nedjeljko Prstojevic; correct?

 8        A.   It's not Zeljko.  An elderly gentleman wasn't Zeljko, that's for

 9     sure.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know his first name?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this moment I cannot remember.

12     He was my neighbour in Sokolovic Kolonija, but he's deceased.  Believe me

13     I cannot remember.  It is Prstojevic, that's for sure.

14             MR. JEREMY:

15        Q.   Mr. Guzina, it's correct, isn't it, that in April 1992, there was

16     a general mobilisation of all military-aged conscripts in the territory

17     of the Serbian municipality of Ilidza?

18        A.   Can we call that general mobilisation?  There was this

19     organisation, all Serbs were called to report at the Territorial Defence

20     to be deployed in certain locations in terms of the defence of Ilidza.

21             MR. JEREMY:  Could the Prosecution please see 65 ter 22938.

22        Q.   Mr. Guzina, this is a 6th April 1992 order on the implementation

23     of general mobilisation from a Nedjeljko Prstojevic of the Ilidza Crisis

24     Staff.  Under item 1, this order calls for the general mobilisation of

25     all military conscripts in the territory of the Serbian municipality of

Page 22506

 1     Ilidza between the ages of 18 to 60.

 2             Mr. Guzina, is this the general mobilisation that you just

 3     referred to in your previous answer?

 4        A.   That would probably be it.  That's what's written here, the

 5     6th of April.  And I think I said that it was around the 5th that we left

 6     Sokolovic Kolonija.  It's possible that this is it.  Yes, yes, it is.

 7     That's for sure.  It's been signed, there is a stamp.

 8     Nedjeljko Prstojevic was president of the Crisis Staff in the

 9     municipality of Ilidza.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  So you would confirm that the first name is

11     Nedjeljko instead of Zeljko, where you said earlier that this is not his

12     first name.  But it's the same person, correct?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mistake.  This is

14     Nedjeljko Prstojevic.  He was president of the Crisis Staff, afterwards

15     the president of the municipality of Ilidza, whereas the other one is a

16     different Prstojevic who lived in Sokolovic Kolonija.  Now, whether they

17     are related, that is probably the case, but it's not one and the same

18     person.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

20             MR. JEREMY:

21        Q.   And, Mr. Guzina, you responded to this general mobilisation

22     order; correct?

23        A.   Yes, yes.  By then I was already involved.  Perhaps even a few

24     days before this.  Before leaving Sokolovic Kolonija, I was appointed

25     commander of Sokolovic Kolonija on behalf of the Serbs.

Page 22507

 1             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I tender that document as the next

 2     Prosecution exhibit.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 22938 receives number P6589,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. JEREMY:

 8        Q.   Mr. Guzina, it's correct, isn't it, that the Serbs were the ones

 9     who decided to move Croats and Muslims out of Ilidza?

10        A.   No, that's not correct.

11             MR. JEREMY:  Could the Prosecution please see Exhibit P470.

12        Q.   And, Mr. Guzina, while this is coming up, I'll tell you it's a

13     19 May 1992 decision from Nedjeljko Prstojevic who you just confirmed you

14     knew to be the president of the Ilidza Crisis Staff.  This decision

15     states:

16             "The moving out of Croats and Muslims from all territories of

17     Ilidza Serb Municipality is allowed, apart from Butmir,

18     Sokolovic Kolonija and Hrasnica (prohibited from leaving)."

19             Mr. Guzina, this document written by Nedjeljko Prstojevic shows

20     that contrary to what you've just told us, that, in fact, it was the

21     Serbs who decided to move Croats and Muslims out of Ilidza.  Yes?

22        A.   I'm not familiar with this document because I was not a member of

23     the Crisis Staff, and this was written on the 19th of May, 1992, as far

24     as I know, after the first attack against the municipality of Ilidza and

25     our positions, after the killing of many Serbs.  I know and I claim with

Page 22508

 1     full responsibility that the Muslims in the municipality of Ilidza

 2     voluntarily left their apartments and their houses, and they left

 3     wherever it was that they wanted to go, either towards Kiseljak or

 4     Sarajevo, nobody prevented them from doing so.  But it is also a fact

 5     that nobody was driving them out.

 6             Now, what is mentioned here, Butmir, Sokolovic Kolonija, and

 7     Hrasnica, whether that has anything to do with this first attack, believe

 8     me, I don't know.  But this is the first time I see this document.

 9        Q.   Mr. Guzina, are you aware that Nedjeljko Prstojevic spoke at

10     Republika Srpska Assemblies about efforts to remove non-Serbs from

11     Serb-claimed territories in Sarajevo?

12        A.   No, I don't know about that.  I wasn't following that.

13        Q.   I'd like to show you a document, P4581.  And as it is being

14     brought up, I'll tell you it's from the Republika Srpska People's

15     Assembly session 24 to 26 of July, 1992.

16             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go to -- one moment, I'll just get the --

17     could we go to the next page in this document.  Your Honours, one moment,

18     I'll just get the exact page reference.  Court's indulgence, please.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go to page 66.  And if we zoom in on the

21     bottom half of the page.

22        Q.   Mr. Guzina, here we see Mr. Prstojevic's address to this

23     Assembly.  He states:

24             "... I have decided to say a few words and ask --"

25        A.   I do apologise.  I cannot see this.  On my screen I cannot see

Page 22509

 1     this.

 2        Q.   Mr. Guzina, the usher will assist you.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, either slowly read it to him or perhaps

 5     the best would be to enlarge and have only the B/C/S on the screen

 6     and that at the same time you read it in English.

 7             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, could we enlarge the B/C/S, please.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not very clear, Witness, but we'll have to do

 9     with it.

10             MR. JEREMY:

11        Q.   Mr. Guzina, I'll quote you a few lines from that excerpt as

12     follows:

13             "... I have decided to say a few words and to ask a few questions

14     that I am being asked by the citizens of Sarajevo; namely, when the Serbs

15     started the uprising in Sarajevo and when they seized control over

16     certain territories.  There was no government or at least it was not

17     known where it was then."

18             He goes on to say:

19             "When we learnt --"

20             Sorry, excuse me.  He goes on to say:

21             "Serbs from Sarajevo retained control over the territory and even

22     extended their territory in some areas, driving the Muslims out of the

23     territories --"

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You're skipping portions, Mr. Jeremy.  You're aware

25     of that?

Page 22510

 1             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honour, when I said "he goes on to say," I

 2     meant to alert the witness to my skipping of the portion but I should

 3     have made that clearer.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please read the whole of it.  So if you would please

 5     start:

 6             "We even did not know Mr. Karadzic was alive during the first

 7     couple of days ..."

 8             And then you continue with:

 9             "... when we learned that he was alive ..."

10             MR. JEREMY:

11        Q.   So, Witness, after the first portion I've read to you,

12     Mr. Prstojevic states:

13             "Moreover, we did not know if Mr. Karadzic was alive during the

14     first couple of days.  When we learnt that he was alive and when he

15     visited us in Ilidza and encouraged us, the Serbs from Sarajevo retained

16     control over the territory and even extended their territory in some

17     areas, driving the Muslims out of the territories where they had actually

18     been majority."

19             Mr. Guzina, it's correct, isn't it, that you were involved in the

20     driving out of Muslims of territories in Ilidza?

21        A.   No, that's not correct.

22        Q.   In paragraph 33 of your statement, you state:

23             "In June 1992, I participated in an operation to liberate and

24     capture the residential area around the airport in Dobrinja."

25             This was an operation that involved the removal of non-Serbs from

Page 22511

 1     Serb-claimed territories; correct?

 2        A.   In June 1992, we set out to liberate either Aerodromsko Naselje

 3     because Nedzarici is a Serb neighbourhood and it was under heavy fire

 4     from Aerodromsko Naselje.  Major Pero Despotovic, who came to Ilidza

 5     before that and who took over the Ilidza Brigade, made this decision

 6     because the Serbs in Nedzarici could no longer go on that way, the

 7     decision was made to take this area so that they could survive.  It is

 8     true I took part in this operation of taking Aerodromsko Naselje and we

 9     did take it.  We found very few people there.  Where I was, all of these

10     people who were found there were sent to the runway and to the airport

11     building; that is to say, we did not expel anyone or, God forbid, kill

12     anyone.  For tactical reasons we simply had to take that neighbourhood.

13        Q.   Mr. Guzina, when --

14        A.   The war had already started by then.

15        Q.   When you refer to "these people," you are referring to

16     Bosnian Muslims; correct?

17        A.   Well, at that moment when the decision was made, we did not know

18     how many Muslims were there.  We were under fire in Nedzarici and we

19     legitimately set out to liberate that part of the neighbourhood and to

20     stop all this firing at Nedzarici.  The war had already started.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Why don't you answer the question rather than to

22     repeat your own story.  The question simply was:  When you refer to

23     "these people," whether you were referring to Bosnian Muslims.  That was

24     the question.  No one said anything about whether it was justified or

25     not.  Just who were they you were referring to as "these people."  Could

Page 22512

 1     you answer the question?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we attacked the Bosnian

 3     Muslims.  Who else?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then -- then --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's who I mean throughout.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then just say "yes."  That's the answer to the

 7     question.  You referred to the Bosnian Muslims.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

 9             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I'm about to move to another document.

10     I wonder if it's a good time to take a break.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Before we do so, I take it that you want to

12     tender this document of -- no, this is already in evidence, I think.

13     It's -- yes.

14             Now, you told us that you sent them to the runway and to the

15     airport building.  What happened with them afterwards?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They went via Kiseljak onwards to

17     Split.  They were all safe and they're all alive.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But did you send them to Kiseljak or did you send

19     them to the runway at the airport building?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police were at the airport.

21     And since civilians were obviously not soldiers, we sent them to the

22     police of the Serbian municipality of Ilidza.  According to what I know,

23     afterwards they allowed them to go further on via Kiseljak.  As far as I

24     know, according to my information, they all remained alive.  This is what

25     I'm saying.

Page 22513

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, that's not what I was asking you.  But did --

 2     were they given an option to return to their homes again?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not there.  I was in the

 4     airport neighbourhood.  I know that they were sent to the airport, there

 5     was a reception centre there.  People from the police received them

 6     there.  And according to what I know, they spent a night there in the

 7     camp.  And then on the following day, they said where they wanted to go.

 8     They were all released.  This is what I know and I stand by my knowledge.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  How do you know that?  I mean, my simple -- my

10     question was a very simple one, whether they had an option to return.

11     Now, if I say to someone you can go to A, B, and C, just choose.  If that

12     person wants to go to D rather than to A, B, and C, he didn't have that

13     option.  So could you please tell me if you know - if you don't know,

14     tell us as well - whether these people were given an option to return to

15     their homes from where they were sent to the runway and to the airport

16     building?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, I was not at the

18     airport and I don't know what they were asked.  What I'm claiming is that

19     they spent a night --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, whether they spent one night or three

21     nights or seven nights, my question was - and apparently you're unable to

22     answer that - is whether they were given an option to return to their

23     homes because you don't know.

24             Mr. Jeremy, we'll take a break.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I couldn't be in two places

Page 22514

 1     at the same time.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not blaming you for anything.  I'm just asking

 3     you what you do know and what you do not know, and I got an answer.

 4             We take a break.  If you would follow the usher, we'd like to see

 5     you back in 20 minutes.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at 5 minutes to 11.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We briefly turn into private session.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22515











11  Page 22515 redacted.  Private session.















Page 22516

 1   (redacted)

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 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 22517

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed.

 3             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4        Q.   Mr. Guzina, we left off talking about a June 1992 operation in

 5     Dobrinja that you were involved in and I would like to stay on that

 6     topic.  Now, this was an operation that was carried out in co-ordination

 7     with the Main Staff of the VRS; correct?

 8        A.   As far as I know, that was not an operation at all.  It was an

 9     action carried out by the Ilidza Brigade.  Other units --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- all participate in operations as

12     well.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It was clear, whether it's called operation or

14     otherwise, what Mr. Jeremy was talking about.  What he wanted to know is

15     whether this action, operation, whatever you call it, whether it was

16     carried out in co-ordination with the Main Staff of the VRS.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say either yes or no.

18     However, pursuant to an order by --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- Pero Despotovic the commander --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If you don't know, tell us.  May I remind you of

22     your words in paragraph 33 of your statement:

23             "In June 1992, I participated in an operation ..."

24             And then you describe the operation at the airport.  So it is not

25     very appropriate if a question is put to you to comment that.  But at the

Page 22518

 1     same time I see that in the original it is "akcija" which is mentioned.

 2     Apparently "akcija" means "operation," unless there is any challenge to

 3     the interpretation.  So therefore let's focus on the important things and

 4     not on the unimportant ones.  You can't give us an answer to the question

 5     whether it was in co-ordination with the Main Staff of the VRS.

 6             Next question please, Mr. Jeremy.

 7             MR. JEREMY:  Can we please see P353.  That's the handwritten

 8     notebook of Ratko Mladic.  I'd like to go to e-court page 166 in the

 9     English and 164 in the B/C/S.

10        Q.   Mr. Guzina, we see on the page before you that this is an entry

11     in the notebook of Mr. Mladic dated Monday, 15 June 1992.

12             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go to e-court page 170 in the English and

13     168 in the B/C/S.

14        Q.   And we see here that there is the numbers 1520, which I take to

15     be a time.  The words "conversation with representatives of Sarajevo

16     municipalities."  We see number 1, Ilidza, Nedjeljko Prstojevic.  Halfway

17     down the page, we see Prstojevic's name underlined and some words

18     underneath which I take to be his comments.  The first such comment is

19     that there are 6.500 soldiers in Ilidza.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, no speaking allowed.  Even with my

21     earphones on I can hear you.  You know what the consequences are.  If you

22     want to consult with counsel, you know exactly how to do that.  You seem

23     to have forgotten about that little written notes often served you very

24     well.

25             You can consult, but do it at a volume inaudible for us.  I can

Page 22519

 1     still --

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, Mr. Lukic, Mr. Lukic, if Mr. Mladic takes

 4     off his earphones he can't hear me anymore.  It should be clear that he

 5     is not allowed to speak at a volume audible for others.  If he wants to

 6     consult you, as you may remember, for a long time he was entirely limited

 7     to written notes.  If it continues as it goes now, we'll return to that

 8     system, written notes and no speaking at all.  So it's up to Mr. Mladic

 9     himself to see whether he wants to go back to that old regime or whether

10     he wants to follow our instructions.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. JEREMY:

13        Q.   Mr. Guzina, we see the comments of Mr. Prstojevic stating that

14     there are around 6.500 soldiers in Ilidza.  Now ...

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber is fed up with the way in

17     which Mr. Mladic treats this matter.  One more loud spoken word and he'll

18     be removed from the courtroom.  Let that be clear.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

21        Q.   Mr. Guzina, referring again to this figure of 6.500 soldiers in

22     Ilidza, you were shown a document today - P3030 - that stated that there

23     were 2.800 individuals in Ilidza in -- who had been -- 2.800 volunteers

24     in Ilidza in March 1992.  We then saw a mobilisation order on

25     6th of April, 1992, P6589.  And now in mid-June 1992, we see that there

Page 22520

 1     are around six and a half thousand soldiers in Ilidza.  Do you recall

 2     there being approximately that number of soldiers in Ilidza at this time?

 3        A.   We know that the Ilidza Brigade had approximately 3500 men, the

 4     Ilidza Brigade.  And the municipality of Ilidza also had part of the

 5     Igman Brigade.  Perhaps this number has been increased because it also

 6     includes some men from the Igman Brigade, because the Igman Brigade

 7     covered one part of Hadzici and one part of the territory of the

 8     municipality of Ilidza.  That's how I explain the number.

 9        Q.   We see towards the bottom of the page there is a subheading:

10     "Requests."  And it states, 1:

11             "That officers should plan an operation and take the men to

12     Dobrinja."

13             Now, this is the operation that you were involved in in

14     June 1992; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go to page 171 in the English and 169 in

17     the B/C/S, please.

18        Q.   Mr. Guzina, at the bottom of this page we see the subheading:

19     "Conclusions."  Number 1:

20             "To clear the Serbian territory ..."

21             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go to the next page, please, and focus on

22     the top of that page.

23        Q.   So I've just read on the last page:

24             "To clear the Serbian territory in which Mojmilo and Dobrinja

25     come first."

Page 22521

 1             Mr. Guzina, it's correct, isn't it, that this reference to

 2     clearing the Serbian territory in which Mojmilo and Dobrinja come first

 3     is a reference to the removal of non-Serbs from this area -- these areas?

 4        A.   Could we go back to the first page that you showed me and then

 5     I'll be able to answer your question?  If we look at Branko Radan and

 6     Danilo Skrba's statements, I can tell you that they were on the other

 7     side.  They were not physically connected with the municipality of

 8     Ilidza.  They were on the other side of Dobrinja.  We were on one side

 9     and they were on the other side, and these are their statements.  But

10     these people didn't reside in Ilidza.

11        Q.   Witness, to repeat my question, and if you don't know, then say

12     you don't know.  But when we see the subheading:  "Conclusions:  To clear

13     the Serbian territory in which Mojmilo and Dobrinja come first," that is

14     a reference to the removal of non-Serbs in that area pursuant to the

15     operation that you yourself was involved in; that's correct, isn't it?

16        A.   Not correct.  I'm not familiar with this document.  I've

17     explained why we attacked the airport neighbourhood.  The main reason --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness -- Witness --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- or the only reason was the --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  If you don't answer the question, we'll just move on

21     and we'll do without what you could tell us about that.  You were called

22     by the Defence which means that the Defence considers the information you

23     could provide to us useful, but if you don't answer the questions and

24     tell us all kind of things not asked, then we'll just move on.

25             Mr. Jeremy, next question please.

Page 22522

 1             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go to Exhibit P03059?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot answer.

 3             MR. JEREMY:

 4        Q.   Mr. Guzina, as this document is coming up, I can tell you it's a

 5     report from Colonel Tomislav Sipcic of the Romanija Corps to the

 6     Main Staff dated 17 June 1992.  That's two days after the entry in

 7     Mr. Mladic's notebook we just looked at.  We see the heading is:

 8     "Combat actions in Dobrinja."  Paragraph 1, we see a reference to the

 9     Ilidza Brigade.

10             Could you read that paragraph 1 and confirm that this refers to

11     the June combat actions in Dobrinja that you were involved in?

12        A.   "Our forces took up the following positions before the night

13     fell:  The junction of the Ante Babic and Boro Draskovic Streets, cut off

14     the Rosa Hadzivukovic Street and reach the Ernest Telman Street.  They

15     stopped in front of the block of flats in the Marks and Engels Street.

16     Casualties:  Three dead and six wounded."

17             Yes, these were the positions we reached in the airport

18     neighbourhood.  We took them at that time and that's where we stayed

19     throughout the war.  We continued to keep those positions that we took at

20     that time.

21             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go to paragraph 6 in this document, please.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, if I read the original and this part --

23     could we go back to the first page.  Last line of paragraph 1 is:

24     "Casualties:  Three dead and six wounded."

25             Now, in the original, I see the numbers four and six.  So I

Page 22523

 1     wonder whether there is a risk that the translation is not accurate

 2     because if translation of numbers goes already in this direction, then we

 3     have to fear even more for text.  Please proceed and have it verified.

 4             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honours, we will.

 5             Could we refer to paragraph 6 in this document, please.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  For English it would therefore -- next page, yes.

 7     Thank you.

 8             MR. JEREMY:

 9        Q.   Mr. Guzina, we see paragraph 6 states:

10             "The treatment of civilian population:  The SRK units are pulling

11     out civilians and taking them to the Lukavica barracks and the prisoners

12     to the Kula KPD.  SRBH MUP is classifying civilians according to their

13     ethnicity."

14             Mr. Guzina, this is a reference to the removal of non-Serbs from

15     Serb-claimed territory committed pursuant to the mid-June operation that

16     you were involved in; correct?

17        A.   Yes, but I can't see a reference to the airport neighbourhood

18     here.  There was an operation on Dobrinja 1, 2, 3, and 4, all taking

19     place at the same time and we refer to all those as Dobrinja.  The forces

20     of the 2nd Sarajevo Brigade attacked from one side and we did from the

21     other.  I mentioned prisoners or, rather, civilians who were in the

22     airport neighbourhood and I said that we escorted them to the airport

23     building.  Whereas this is the other side, as far as I can tell.

24        Q.   So, Witness, it's your evidence that you escorted civilians,

25     Bosnian Muslim civilians to the airport runway building -- sorry, to the

Page 22524

 1     runway or the airport building but not to the Lukavica barracks or the

 2     Kula KPD?  Is that your evidence?

 3        A.   This is my evidence.  We escorted them to the airport building,

 4     and I'm referring to the people who we found in the airport

 5     neighbourhood.  There were also Serbs among them.  This means that we

 6     vacated the neighbourhood of civilians and we escorted them to the

 7     airport building.  This is what I'm saying and this is true.

 8        Q.   In the same paragraph we see it states:

 9             "So Serbs and Croats are being put together and Muslims are being

10     separated from them."

11             You were involved in the separation of Muslims; correct?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   So the Muslim civilians that you took to the airport facility,

14     the airport runway, and the airport building, somebody else separated

15     them - is that your evidence? - before you escorted them?

16        A.   I did not escort them.  I was a soldier and I was engaged in

17     taking territory.  Soldiers who followed me entered apartments, searched

18     the apartments to see whether there were any civilians there.  They

19     gathered them in front of the buildings and then they escorted them to

20     the airport building.  All that time I was engaged in taking the

21     territory.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Let's move on.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just ask:  Witness, do you mean to say that

24     this whole Dobrinja action or that it was all separate, that it was

25     simultaneously but the whole of Dobrinja was not part of your actions?

Page 22525

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is precisely what I'm saying.

 2     The Ilidza Brigade launched that action against the airport

 3     neighbourhood.  That's a fact.  On the other side, the

 4     2nd Sarajevo Brigade launched an operation against Dobrinja 1 and 4, I

 5     believe.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And these --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those were two separate actions.

 8     We were not co-ordinated in those two actions.  We never linked up.

 9     Pero Despotovic, who was the brigade commander, I don't know whether he

10     was in co-ordination with the corps.  I suppose that he was, but I'm not

11     sure.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because in paragraph 34 of your statement, I

13     read:  "Our plan was to capture the entire area of Dobrinja," which

14     sounds very much as the whole of Dobrinja being the aim of the action.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose that it was the whole of

16     Dobrinja, but I am talking about the Ilidza Brigade.  Our mission was to

17     take the airport neighbourhood.  I don't know what the other units had to

18     do.  I suppose that that was their task because that meant life for

19     Ilidza.  We were supposed to link up and to join the whole territory of

20     Ilidza; i.e., the part in front of the airport and the part behind it.  I

21     suppose that that was the original plan.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but the whole activity was reported in one

23     report, if I understand the document we just looked at well.  At least in

24     reporting it was not treated as two entirely separate actions.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] However, as far as I can tell from

Page 22526

 1     this report, this report is from the other side, from the

 2     2nd Sarajevo Brigade.  There is no reference to the Ilidza Brigade and

 3     there is no reference to where our civilians were taken.  There is

 4     reference to Kula, but that's on the other side.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So you would say the 1st Sarajevo-Romanija Brigade

 6     and the 2nd Sarajevo Brigade, both were not at your side -- no, the --

 7     let me see.  In paragraph 1, we see the activities of the Ilidza Brigade;

 8     paragraph 2, the 1st Sarajevo-Romanija Brigade; and paragraph 3, the

 9     2nd Sarajevo Brigade.  Now, what then follows is not -- at least

10     textually not limited to one of the three or two of the three brigades.

11     Nowhere in six I see something like, "The treatment of the civilian

12     population."  It says "the SRK units."

13             Now, are all the three brigades mentioned earlier, are they all

14     SRK units?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, these are units of the SRK,

16     but I don't see a report from the Ilidza Brigade.  If you have that, show

17     it to me and I will confirm that this is indeed it.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The Ilidza Brigade is included in this report, isn't

19     it?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, under 1:  Positions taken and

21     how far we got.  And this is fine, this is correct.  When we took up

22     those positions, we liberated Nedzarici from Muslim forces on the

23     right-hand side.  And when we reached those positions in 1992, we

24     remained there and from there we were engaged in decisive defence of

25     Nedzarici.  This is what I'm saying.

Page 22527

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That's in your statement.  I just put it to you that

 2     paragraph 6 is not limited to the other two brigades but makes no

 3     distinction whatsoever about the treatment of the civilian population.

 4     You have explained and you say, well, that's not true because it doesn't

 5     reflect what the Ilidza Brigade did, and I'm inviting you to look at the

 6     text and to see where that text supports your recollection.

 7             Did you find -- yes.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm just saying that we did not act

 9     unfairly towards people in the airport neighbourhood.  We did not ask for

10     their IDs to ascertain whether they were Serbs, Croats, or Muslims.  We

11     escorted them to the airport building.  And now what happened next, where

12     they were taken, that's another story.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not my question.  I invited you to see

14     whether the text of paragraph 6 would give any support to your testimony

15     that you didn't take them to Lukavica barracks but that you took them

16     elsewhere.  And please carefully listen now to Mr. Jeremy's next

17     question.

18             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

19        Q.   Mr. Guzina, let's move to a different part of your statement.  In

20     paragraphs 33 to 49, you describe your time in the Ilidza Brigade from

21     June 1992 onwards.  Now, you were initially appointed commander of the

22     5th Battalion of the Ilidza Brigade in June 1992; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And towards the end of 1993, with the reorganisation of the

25     Ilidza Brigade, the 5th Battalion became part of the 1st Battalion of the

Page 22528

 1     Ilidza Brigade; that's correct, yes?

 2        A.   Yes.  When Colonel Radojcic became the commander of the

 3     Ilidza Brigade, he reorganised the brigade.  He took the 5th, the 3rd,

 4     and the 1st Battalions and joined them into one battalion which had about

 5     750 soldiers all together, so it was somewhat bigger.

 6        Q.   And you were appointed commander of this combined 1st Battalion;

 7     correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Your command of that battalion ceased when the Dayton Agreement

10     was signed?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Something goes wrong with the microphone.  Could you

12     please restart, Mr. Jeremy.

13             MR. JEREMY:

14        Q.   Mr. Guzina, your command of the 1st Battalion ceased when -- at

15     approximately the time that the Dayton Agreement was signed; is that

16     correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, you were wounded on the 23rd of November, 1993, and you

19     spent approximately four months on sick leave; that's correct, isn't it?

20        A.   Three to four months.

21        Q.   And you confirmed in the statement that you made in the -- that

22     you provided in the Karadzic case that as a consequence of being wounded,

23     you have no knowledge about a shelling incident that occurred on the

24     22nd of January, 1994.  Do you recall that?

25        A.   Could you please jog my memory, help me to remember?  Well, it's

Page 22529

 1     possible that that's what I stated.

 2             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 1D02121, that's Mr. Guzina's

 3     statement in the Karadzic case.  Could we please go to paragraph 43.

 4        Q.   Mr. Guzina, the statement on the screen before you is a different

 5     statement to the one that you have in your hands.  It's the statement you

 6     provided in the Karadzic case, and I simply want you to confirm what you

 7     say in paragraph 43 in reference to this incident G6.  You say the

 8     incident was explained to you.  It occurred on the 22nd of January, 1994.

 9     And skipping some of the text, you go on to say:

10             "I was on sick leave at the time because I had been wounded on

11     the 23rd of November, 1993.  I spent about four months on sick leave, and

12     therefore I have no information about this incident."

13        A.   Yes, this is my statement.  I stand by it.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. JEREMY:  I'm done with that statement.  Thank you.

16        Q.   Mr. Guzina, I'd like to discuss the process of communications in

17     your battalion and communications between your battalion and the

18     Ilidza Brigade command.  Now, you discuss this topic during a recorded

19     interview you had with the Office of the Prosecutor in October 2003, and

20     I'm going to put a passage of that interview to you and I'll ask you to

21     confirm it.  You were asked:

22             "Q.  Did you have a reporting system from the battalion to the

23     brigade?"

24             You answered:

25             "Every day."

Page 22530

 1             You were then asked:

 2             "Can you explain how that worked?  Was it a written report,

 3     verbal report, or how was it passed to the brigade?"

 4             You answered:

 5             "In fact, at the time, every position had induction

 6     communication.  That's a wire communication system that linked ourselves

 7     to our, to the command of the battalion and myself to the brigade

 8     command.  And I, myself, from the place where I was to the brigade

 9     command was just a ten-minute drive by car.  Therefore, we were in

10     permanent contact with the brigade and on the communication line.

11     Radojcic introduced that for the reason that it was easy to tap the

12     phones and the, that was a much more secure communication.  We knew at

13     any given moment what was going at the positions since the shooting was a

14     daily occurrence.  It was not necessary to go to the front lines to learn

15     what was going on."

16             Mr. Guzina, do you stand by the answers that you provided in the

17     recorded interview that I've just quoted back to you?

18        A.   If these are my words, yes, I do.

19        Q.   I'd like to move on to a different topic and talk about

20     ammunition used by your battalion and brigade.  In paragraph 38 of your

21     statement that you provided in this case, D514, you mention some of the

22     weapons in your battalion.

23             Now, it's correct, isn't it, that the Koran ammunition depot was

24     one of the places where your brigade received its ammunition from?

25        A.   Could the Prosecutor please repeat the name of the depot?  I

Page 22531

 1     didn't understand it.

 2        Q.   The name is the Koran, K-o-r-a-n, ammunition depot.

 3        A.   As far as I know, that depot is in Pale.

 4             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 65 ter 30790.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But the question was whether you received your

 6     ammunition from that depot.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Again, Mr. --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally don't know.  We had a

 9     commander for logistics who did that job.  Where he got the ammunition

10     from, I don't know.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The answer to the question was "I don't know,"

12     rather than that the Koran depot was in Pale, which -- the location

13     wasn't asked.

14             Please proceed.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Jeremy, just check the number of the 65 ter.

16             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.  65 ter 30790, please.

17        Q.   Mr. Guzina, before you is a 30 June 1992 SRK request for

18     replenishment of certain ammunition which was sent to the VRS Main Staff

19     and the Koran ammunition depot.  Now, I'd like to ask you about a few of

20     the items listed here.  The first item requests 7.62-millimetre bullets

21     for PAP semiautomatic rifles, automatic rifles, and PM light

22     machine-guns.

23             It's correct, isn't it, that your brigade had all these types of

24     guns?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 22532

 1        Q.   And these 7.62 millimetre bullets are the types of bullets that

 2     are used with an M-48 rifle, yes?

 3        A.   I think so.

 4        Q.   You testified in the Karadzic case that your battalion had

 5     M-48 rifles with optic sights.  That was at transcript page 31161.  Do

 6     you stand by that testimony?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Jeremy, could you please check one item.  In

 9     your question you refer to an M-48 rifle.  In the document I see

10     reference to M-84.  Could you please check.

11             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honour, I did intend to refer to an M-48

12     rifle notwithstanding the reference of M-84 here.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And you were referring to item 1 on this list and

14     not to item 2 on this list, if I understood you well?

15             MR. JEREMY:  Correct, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

17             MR. JEREMY:

18        Q.   Mr. Guzina, you also testified in the Karadzic case that these

19     M-48 rifles with optical sights were used for sniping.  Do you stand by

20     that testimony?

21        A.   We never opened any sniper fire there, but I believe this M-72

22     round is for a heavy machine-gun, M-48.  I think that's the case, at

23     least.  It needs to be checked.

24        Q.   Mr. Guzina, I'd like to read you a portion of your testimony in

25     the Karadzic case, and I'll ask you to confirm that.

Page 22533

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, could you give the source to the

 2     Defence?  The Chamber, of course, doesn't have it available, but I think

 3     it's fair that the Defence would be able to verify.

 4             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honour.  Transcript page 31161.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  From the Karadzic case?

 6             MR. JEREMY:  From the Karadzic case.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. JEREMY:  And, Your Honours, the transcript is in e-court.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but if it's not in evidence, the Chamber

10     usually does not scroll through all the uploaded documents in e-court.

11     So therefore if you want us to have a look at it, please put it on the

12     screen.  And that's what we prefer, as a matter of fact, if there's any

13     dispute about what was said.

14             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 65 ter 30777, e-court page 18.

15        Q.   Mr. Guzina, I'll read from page 5 -- excuse me, from line 5 on

16     page 31161.

17             "Q.  So when we spoke last on Thursday you had just finished

18     telling us that there were no sniper rifles in your battalion and you had

19     no need --"

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll not see it in your own language.  You

21     don't receive --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Could you --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I can hear interpretation, but

25     I don't see it in Serbian.

Page 22534

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No, you can't see it in Serbian because there

 2     is no Serbian version.  It will be read to you and you will receive the

 3     translation as the words are spoken by Mr. Jeremy.

 4             Mr. Jeremy, could you please restart.

 5             MR. JEREMY:

 6        Q.   "Q.  So when we spoke last on Thursday, you had just finished

 7     telling us that there were no sniper rifles in your battalion and you had

 8     no need for sniper rifles because the confrontation line was so close.

 9     And you also said that when you were confronted about snipers by

10     UNPROFOR, you of course denied that you had snipers.  Do you remember

11     testifying about this?

12             "A.  Yes" --

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Mr. Guzina, I'm still reading the quote.

15             "A.  Yes.  I said that in that part of the Nedzarici I did not

16     have any snipers, but it is a fact that I had M-48 rifles with optic

17     sights.  And I think that in the 4th Company of my battalion, there were

18     three snipers that were pointed in the completely opposite direction,

19     Butmir, the airport, not the locations that you mentioned."

20             Mr. Guzina, do you stand by that testimony in the Karadzic case?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You went on to state in line 18 -- or you were asked in line 18:

23             "Q.  So now I see that you say you had M48 rifles with optic

24     sights, and so were those rifles used for sniping?"

25             And you answered:

Page 22535

 1             "Yes."

 2             Do you also stand by that testimony?

 3        A.   I don't remember saying this.

 4        Q.   Did you have M48 rifles with optic sights which you used for

 5     sniping?

 6        A.   Yes.  I mean, we had M48 rifles but not for sniping.  The

 7     Prosecutor said this too quickly so I answered yes, but the answer is we

 8     had M48 rifles but not for sniping.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Did they have optic sights?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  But those are rifles from

11     World War II.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

13             MR. JEREMY:

14        Q.   Mr. Guzina, I'll read the next question and the next answer and

15     we'll see if that refreshes your recollection about snipers in your

16     battalion.

17             "Q.  You also say that you had -- in the 4th Company of your

18     battalion there were three snipers that were pointed in the completely

19     opposite direction, at the airport, not the locations that you mentioned.

20     I didn't mention any locations.  I was talking about snipers generally.

21     So when I asked you last week whether you had snipers, you didn't tell us

22     about these particular snipers, did you?"

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we scroll down, please.

24             MR. JEREMY:

25        Q.   "A.  Obviously we did not understand each other then.  The fact

Page 22536

 1     is that in terms of these examples of incidents that had occurred, it all

 2     has to do with Nedzarici, so I was thinking along those lines; namely,

 3     that in Nedzarici there weren't any snipers and there was no mention of

 4     targets in Butmir, I mean that is where the snipers were turned and that

 5     is why we were thinking at cross-purposes, if you will."

 6             Mr. Guzina, again you refer to snipers in your battalion in that

 7     answer in the Karadzic case.  Is it your position that you were

 8     incorrectly interpreted or transcribed and that, in fact, you did not

 9     have snipers?

10        A.   I can't answer this question with a yes or no.  I have to

11     explain.  The fact is we had three snipers in the 4th Company trained at

12     Butmir and the airport runway.  I stand by that.  We also had M48 rifles

13     with optical sights at certain positions of ours in the 1st Battalion.

14     That, too, is true.  However, it is not true that sniper fire was opened

15     and that targets were shot at.

16        Q.   So it's your evidence that you had three snipers in your

17     battalion but that the snipers did not open fire at any targets.  That's

18     your evidence; correct?

19        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, between M48 rifles from World War II and M75

20     rifles of the professional JNA, there is a huge difference.  M48 rifles

21     are very imprecise weapons from World War II.  I really can't answer this

22     with yes or no, Judge.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Simply, were the sniper rifles, I'm not talking

24     about the M48 with optic sights but the sniper rifles which you said were

25     in the 4th Company, were they ever used at any target?

Page 22537

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, against Butmir.  Yes, I stand

 2     by that.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us where they were located?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the area of Kasindolska Street,

 5     facing the airport runway and facing Butmir, the 4th Company of the

 6     1st Battalion.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, please proceed.

 8             It's time for a break, I think.  It would be better not to

 9     proceed at this moment.

10             Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.  You may follow

11     the usher.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             We take a break and will resume at 20 minutes past midday.

14                           --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, please proceed.

19             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

20        Q.   Mr. Guzina, just to finish our discussion about sniper rifles

21     with a final couple of questions.  You testified in the Karadzic case at

22     transcript 31165 that you had at least three M76 sniper rifles in your

23     battalion.  My question is:  Do you stand by that testimony today?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. JEREMY:  And, Your Honours, I'd like to tender 65 ter 30790

Page 22538

 1     which is the document that we -- that I went through with the witness

 2     before we put the transcript on the screen.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30790 receives number P6590,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P6590 is admitted.

 7             MR. JEREMY:

 8        Q.   Mr. Guzina, I'd like to discuss targeting by your battalion

 9     briefly --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you do that, anything you are going to deal

11     with 3027?

12             You may proceed.

13             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

14        Q.   Mr. Guzina, in your Karadzic testimony at transcript page 31185,

15     lines 13 to 14, you stated that:

16             "As the war went on, our targeting got better and better."

17             Do you stand by that testimony today?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And it's correct, isn't it, that after a few weeks of the war you

20     had pre-recorded targets in ABiH-held territory?

21        A.   As time went on, the number of targets increased because the

22     intelligence we received from Sarajevo helped us expand the target range.

23        Q.   And therefore it helped you to create pre-recorded targets in the

24     ABiH-held territory; correct?  I see you --

25        A.   Yes.

Page 22539

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Guzina, you've confirmed that you had

 2     approximately 750 men under your command as a battalion commander;

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And you will agree that as a commanding officer your actions

 6     influenced your subordinates.  Yes?

 7        A.   I didn't hear interpretation.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your question, Mr. Jeremy.

 9             MR. JEREMY:

10        Q.   Mr. Guzina, you would agree that as a commanding officer your

11     actions influenced your subordinates.  Yes?

12        A.   Yes, of course.  I was in command of those people in the

13     1st Battalion.

14        Q.   Mr. Guzina, do you consider the term "poturice" to be a

15     derogatory term for Muslims?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Are you aware that individuals who are of Muslim ethnicity may

18     find this term to be offensive?

19        A.   I was not aware.

20        Q.   In February 1993 you were involved in efforts to take Azici;

21     that's correct, isn't it?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And Azici is to the north of Ilidza, near Stup; correct?

24        A.   In the area of the 3rd Battalion of the Ilidza Brigade in the

25     independent detachment --

Page 22540

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Independent company, interpreter's correction.

 2             MR. JEREMY:

 3        Q.   I'd like to play you a video in connection with this operation.

 4             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 65 ter 30768a.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Does it need to be played twice, Mr. Jeremy?

 6             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, Ms. Stewart informs me the booths have

 7     the transcript and it's also been synced in e-court, so we see the words

 8     appear on the screen as the clip is played.  I'm in your hands as to

 9     whether we need to play it twice.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the issue always is whether -- it's a two-step

11     system.  The one is to verify whether the words on the transcript are the

12     same as the words spoken; and then secondly, interpretation of those

13     words.  I'm just looking at the booth whether with the information

14     provided, whether we can play it once and that we can be certain that we

15     have an accurate translation.  If that is the case, we can play it once;

16     otherwise we would have to play it twice.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We have never seen this

18     before and we cannot say for sure.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let's play it twice.

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's then play it twice, so that the first round we

22     can verify whether the transcript provided is an accurate one and then in

23     the second round to receive the interpretation.

24             Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

25             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please play the clip.

Page 22541

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "Commander, sir, what is the

 3     momentary tactical situation in Azici?

 4             "Since the attack carried out by poturice, our active defence has

 5     become very efficient and we have launched a counterattack.  In any case,

 6     we are holding this line of defence because it is useful for us.

 7             "Another question.  Vucko is feeling a bit traumatised because of

 8     all the noise so I would like to ask you something on his behalf.  When

 9     would Vucko get a chance to come back to the centre of town?

10             "Well, I certainly hope it will happen soon.  With all soldiers

11     and units at our disposal, it should happen soon.  We are waiting for a

12     higher command's order.  We would have already been there if they had not

13     prevented us from doing so."

14             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go to 24 seconds into that clip, please.

15        Q.   So we're now at 25.5 seconds.  Mr. Guzina, that is you in the

16     helmet to the left of the screen; correct?

17        A.   Yes, when I was younger.

18        Q.   And the person to your left-hand side is Nikola Mijatovic; is

19     that correct?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   In the video you appear to describe the situation in Azici.  Does

22     that pertain to your battalion's activities in that area in

23     February 1993?

24        A.   No.  It was only I from my battalion that took part in this

25     operation.  Only along -- because that was the axis that was involved.

Page 22542

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the axis be repeated

 2     again, please.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the axis that you referred

 4     to, Witness?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Doglode, that is the village of

 6     Doglode, towards the settlement of Azici.

 7             MR. JEREMY:

 8        Q.   So, Witness, to confirm when you refer to activities in Azici,

 9     you are referring to your own activities in Azici in February 1993;

10     correct?

11        A.   I was referring to the activities of the Ilidza Brigade.  Of

12     course, I used some of these words in my own name.

13        Q.   And these are the actions that you were involved in yourself in

14     February 1993; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please go to 44 seconds in that clip.

17        Q.   Mr. Guzina, is this the area of Azici that we see as viewed from

18     your positions?

19        A.   I don't know from where this picture was taken, I mean, from this

20     film.  But this is Azici.  Specifically this detail, I don't know exactly

21     where this was.

22        Q.   Well, my last question on this clip is:  It was you that used the

23     term "poturice" while speaking in front of your men.  Yes?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I'd tender that clip as the next

Page 22543

 1     Prosecution exhibit.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30768a receives number P6591,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. JEREMY:

 7        Q.   Mr. Guzina, staying on this Azici operation, I would like to show

 8     you a document.

 9             MR. JEREMY:  Can we please see 65 ter 30769.

10        Q.   And this is an excerpt from the final report of the

11     United Nations Commission of Experts.  So the document on the screen

12     before you concerns the Azici operation, and this is a page that is

13     included in this May 1994 report to the Secretary-General regarding

14     events in Sarajevo.  It specifically refers to the Azici operation and it

15     includes an interview with you with Reuters dated 24 February 1993.

16     Let's look at paragraph 1635, which states:

17             "Narrative of Events:

18             "Serb forces were reported to have captured the key western

19     suburb of Azici.  A Reuters television crew went into the suburbs on

20     Tuesday and found it 'completely destroyed.'  Heavy fighting broke out

21     nearly two weeks ago when the Serbs attacked the western suburbs."

22             And skipping some of the text, it goes on to state:

23             "The Serbs" --

24             Halfway into that paragraph:

25             "The Serbs attacks on Azici and Stup followed a BiH government

Page 22544

 1     push against the Serb-held stronghold of Ilidza.  On some days, more than

 2     a thousand shells were reported to have fallen in the contested areas.

 3     The Serbs said that they had captured Azici without a single soldier

 4     killed and only a handful wounded.  'We don't want to lose more soldiers,

 5     so we decided on a new tactic:  We destroy a place before we occupy it,'

 6     said Svetozar Guzina, deputy commander of the Serb forces in the area."

 7             Mr. Guzina, that's your quote provided to Reuters; correct?

 8        A.   I think that's correct, yes.

 9        Q.   So it's correct that in February 1993, notwithstanding your

10     ability to target accurately, which we discussed earlier, here you

11     decided to destroy the entire place; that's correct, isn't it?

12        A.   It is correct that we attacked Azici because we were under fire

13     from there all the time.  It is correct that we attacked Azici to rectify

14     our own lines so that the line of the 3rd Battalion would be more

15     efficient.  It is correct that we used a lot more shells because our

16     assessment was that the Muslim forces in that area were very strong,

17     exceptionally strong.  And it is also true that civilians were not living

18     there and we used as much weaponry as we needed to take Azici.  That is

19     correct.

20             You see for yourself that the operation was efficient.  We only

21     had a few wounded men.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Guzina, again, why not answer the question?  I

23     mean, you tell us what is correct but that was not what Mr. Jeremy asked

24     you about.  You could have told us what the weather was, you could have

25     told us anything.  The question was a different one.  The question was

Page 22545

 1     that notwithstanding your ability to target accurately, that you decided

 2     to destroy the entire place.  Whether that is correct, that was the

 3     question, and would you please answer it.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's very hard to answer just

 5     with a yes or no.  There were 10 or 15 houses there in that settlement

 6     and also a factory where socks were being manufactured.  That is what we

 7     were supposed the take in order to rectify the line.  That is what is

 8     correct.  I cannot just answer with a yes or no.  Yes, we used that much

 9     ammunition.  That's no problem.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No, Mr. Guzina, I'm not asking you to answer by yes

11     or no, but I'm asking you to answer with a focus on the question.  Now,

12     in the second round you at least made an attempt.  You said there were

13     15 houses and a factory.  Did you decide that those had to be destroyed

14     despite of your ability to accurately target?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because in all of those houses

16     and in that factory there were positions of the Muslim forces.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

18             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

19        Q.   Mr. Guzina, it's your evidence, is it not, that you took steps to

20     ensure that there were no civilians living in Azici; is that correct?

21        A.   Could you repeat that question?

22        Q.   In response to my earlier question, you stated that:

23             "It is also true that civilians were not living there," and by

24     "there" you're referring to Azici.

25             So my question is:  On what basis was it true that there were no

Page 22546

 1     civilians in Azici before you targeted the entire area?

 2        A.   Well, the intelligence that was received at the brigade claimed

 3     that there were no civilians in that area.  That was sufficient for us to

 4     do what we did.  And I think, I think to this day, 20-odd years later,

 5     that this is an operation that was successfully carried out.  Even after

 6     this case, no one said anything about civilian casualties, UNPROFOR, no

 7     one else.  At least I have never received such information.

 8             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I tender that document as the next

 9     Prosecution exhibit.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30769 receives number P6592,

12     Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

14             The reason why I was a bit hesitant to immediately continue,

15     Mr. Jeremy, is about paragraph 6036 on our screen.  And the

16     Hadziska [phoen] mosque, is that in the area where this action was taken

17     or?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that's not my area.  That's the

19     area of the Igman Brigade.  It's at a completely different part of the

20     front line, Hadzici.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

23             MR. JEREMY:

24        Q.   Mr. Guzina, staying on the topic of civilian casualties, I'd like

25     to refer you to a question and answer provided in -- during your

Page 22547

 1     testimony in the Karadzic case.

 2             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please have 65 ter 30777.  That's the

 3     witness's testimony in the Karadzic case.  In particular, e-court page 8.

 4        Q.   Mr. Guzina, I'm going to read to you a question put to you by

 5     Mr. Karadzic and I'll read you your answer and ask you to --

 6        A.   I have English, both.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I told you before that this is transcript of

 8     your testimony --

 9             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and you'll hear the translation when Mr. Jeremy

11     reads portions of it.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. JEREMY:

14        Q.   Thank you for your patience, Mr. Guzina.  I'll read the excerpt

15     now.

16             "Q.  I'd just like to put a few questions to you.  In your

17     statement here, you said that you never issued an order to fire at

18     civilians, and that your subordinates never issued such orders.

19     Nevertheless, did it happen that civilians would get killed on both

20     sides?

21             "A.  Yes.

22             "Q.  How would that happen?  How do you explain that if it was

23     not on orders?

24             "A.  At any rate, it wasn't on orders.  It is a fact that there

25     were civilian casualties on both sides.  However, I can say freely that

Page 22548

 1     this is collateral damage on both sides.  Civilians who happened to be on

 2     the front line.  No one wanted to kill them.  They simply happened to be

 3     there because fire that had been opened was not individual fire.  It was

 4     automatic gun-fire.  There was a lot of bullet dispersion on both sides

 5     and therefore civilian casualties could not be avoided.

 6             "As far as the Serb side is concerned, at least in my commanding

 7     the 1st Battalion, civilians were ordered not to go to their homes.  It

 8     was forbidden.  But simply people went to their homes to see their

 9     houses, to see their property, to see whether everything was in proper

10     order, and that is how quite a few ended up getting killed."

11             Mr. Guzina, do you stand by your testimony in the Karadzic case?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   I'd like to move on to the subject of sniping with you.  Now it's

14     correct, isn't it, that your battalion had positions in the faculty of

15     theology and the school for the blind in Nedzarici?

16        A.   Yes, the battalion, my battalion, the 1st Battalion had positions

17     at the faculty of theology and the school for the blind.

18        Q.   And you marked those positions in -- on a map during your

19     testimony in the Karadzic case; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 65 ter 30787.  That's the marked

22     map I just referred to.

23        Q.   Mr. Guzina, do you -- could you please confirm on the screen

24     before you that the T marked in red indicates the faculty of theology?

25     Could you please confirm that?

Page 22549

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And could you confirm that the B indicates the school for the

 3     blind?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. JEREMY:  I'd like to tender that document, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Was there any disagreement about these being the

 7     locations?  And isn't it true that they were marked already also on the

 8     previous map which was then remarked by the witness?

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that

10     there is no dispute.  But just a moment, please.  May I take a look?  I

11     think that in one of the documents that we tendered this had been marked.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is properly marked, for

13     sure.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D02125.  It has a new D number

15     and it also has a marking for the school for blind children, so there is

16     no dispute.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the only dispute could be that the school for

18     the blind is now the school for the blind children, and I think that is

19     what it is, Mr. Jeremy, isn't it?  So you have added slightly to the

20     confusion.  And D517 gives us just as much information as this newly

21     marked map, isn't it?  And on matters --

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And in addition, we have D519 as marked by the

23     witness in this --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, and it doesn't add anything to the evidence

25     we have received already in this respect.  You insist on tendering it?

Page 22550

 1             MR. JEREMY:  In which case, Your Honours, if it's clear to you,

 2     then I don't insist on tendering it.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. JEREMY:

 5        Q.   Mr. Guzina, you yourself have been to the school for the blind

 6     many times; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  School for the blind children you refer to,

 9     Mr. Jeremy?

10             MR. JEREMY:  The school for the blind children, Your Honours,

11     yes.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The correct wording is "Zavod za

13     slepu decu," that is to say, Institute for Blind Children.  So I believe

14     that we have already dealt with that previously.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So we know exactly where we are and how it is

16     called.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see Exhibit Number P01065.

19        Q.   Mr. Guzina, as this is being brought to our screens, I'll tell

20     you it's a daily situation report from UNMO dated 11 July 1994.

21             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please go to page -- or I note the date is

22     11 January 1994.  Could we please go to page 4 -- sorry, it's page 5.

23        Q.   We see number 2:  "Warring Party Activity."

24             And under d, we see:

25             "UNMOs confirm from the spot as well as hospital visit 1 X

Page 22551

 1     Bosnian CIV male" --

 2        A.   I'm on number 6.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We should be in -- could we have a look at the

 4     previous page or is it -- Mr. Jeremy, we are looking at the warring party

 5     activity, where is that to be found?  Or the next page?

 6             MR. JEREMY:  One moment, Your Honours, and I'll look for the

 7     B/C/S equivalent.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently there is something ...

 9             MR. JEREMY:  Can we go to page 6 in the B/C/S, please.  Yeah,

10     that's right.

11        Q.   So referring to part d of number 2, we see it states:

12             "UNMOs confirm from the spot as well as hospital visit 1 X

13     Bosnian civilian male (age 17) injured by sniping at BP863578 near the

14     house for blind people at Alipasino Polje area at," and then there is a

15     code.  "It is suspected that the sniping came from," another code, "BSA

16     side.  It may be highlighted that this is the third casualty (all

17     civilians) in the same spot in the last few days."

18             Mr. Guzina, I'd also like to show you another document a day

19     later and then I'll ask you some questions on both of these documents.

20             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see P1079.

21        Q.   Mr. Guzina, this is an UNMO daily situation report dated

22     13th of July -- sorry, excuse me.

23             MR. JEREMY:  It's now gone from my screen.  I don't know if

24     others have it on their screen.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It went to power-saving mode temporarily.  There we

Page 22552

 1     are again.

 2             MR. JEREMY:

 3        Q.   Mr. Guzina, this is an UNMO report dated the 12th of July, 1994.

 4             MR. JEREMY:  And if we could go to page 4 in the English.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it 12th or 13th, Mr. Jeremy?

 6             MR. JEREMY:  13th of July, Your Honour.  Thank you for that

 7     clarification.  It's the sitrep for the 12th but dated the 13th.

 8        Q.   Mr. Guzina, in paragraph 24 of this document we read as follows,

 9     heading:  "Other important incidents/patrols/investigation:

10             "a.  UNMOs were allowed by the 4th BiH Brigade to patrol along

11     CFL," and some locations are referred to for the first time.

12             b, which I'm interested in, states:

13             "Command 1st Battalion of BSA Ilidza Brigade admitted the sniping

14     by BSA from BP 859578 (house for blind people).  He promised that there

15     would be no more sniping from that place."

16             Mr. Guzina, it was you as commander of the 1st Battalion of the

17     Ilidza Brigade at the time of these reported sniping incidents that

18     admitted to the sniping from the house for the blind people; correct?

19        A.   Yes, I was the commander of the 1st Battalion of the

20     Ilidza Brigade.  And no, I didn't admit that, and I don't stand by the

21     statement that sniper fire came from that building.  This is just either

22     a randomly written sentence or mistranslated.  I don't know who did it.

23     It's not correct that I admitted that because we simply didn't do it.  It

24     is possible that I said that I would check whether by chance somebody

25     opened fire from those positions, but to admit that, please.

Page 22553

 1        Q.   Do you recall checking whether there had been sniping from that

 2     place on this occasion?

 3        A.   Yes, after this conversation and in the Karadzic case we

 4     discussed the same case.  However, after the conversation with the

 5     French captain who came to the scene because he was a UN observer, I

 6     checked.  My soldiers told me that they didn't open fire and I believed

 7     them.  The fact is that in the entire area there was no need for sniper

 8     fire.  If they told me that somebody had been hit with a burst of fire, I

 9     would have believed them.  Not with a sniper.  My decisive defence in my

10     battalion was cross-fire and every soldier had to be able to open a

11     salvo, not individual bullets.  That was my standing order throughout the

12     four years of war.

13             If you know that the 104th, 122nd, and the Butmir Battalion were

14     facing my lines throughout the war, you can understand how we felt in my

15     battalion all that time.

16        Q.   Do you recall passing on this complaint that you received from

17     UNPROFOR to your brigade command?

18        A.   I believe that in all of those matters we briefed our brigade

19     commander.  I believe that the brigade commander was in the picture

20     because it was my duty to convey to him how Muslims used UNPROFOR to

21     accuse us of things without any proof.  I believe that I informed the

22     brigade commander of that.

23        Q.   And do you recall what response you got from your brigade

24     commander on this occasion?

25        A.   In any case, it was to pay attention to the lines, that it was

Page 22554

 1     not in our best interest to provoke them.  The fact was that we allowed

 2     UNPROFOR to come to our front lines to control the situation and to check

 3     the accusations of the Muslim forces who were telling them that we were

 4     constantly opening fire.  That's why UNPROFOR was on our side on the

 5     tallest building.  We allowed UNPROFOR to position themselves there

 6     instead of us, because they had to control the line between the two

 7     warring parties in that area.

 8        Q.   So to clarify, in this particular case you do not recall what

 9     response you got from your brigade commander; yes?

10        A.   Well, in that sense he supported me.  He told me not to do such

11     things and we didn't.  I can't really quote him.  I can't remember word

12     for word parts of that meeting.  If you have any minutes, you can show

13     them to me.  But I know that from our superior command, we always

14     received orders not to open fire on civilians because it was not in the

15     interest of the Serbian army because we had already won the war at that

16     moment and we were only waiting for political means to put a seal on that

17     situation.  Obviously, the Muslim forces kept on provoking us in order to

18     incite UNPROFOR and to convey a message to the international community

19     that we Serbs were to be blamed for everything.  But in this particular

20     case, this was certainly not the case.

21        Q.   Mr. Guzina, I put it to you that the two documents, the two

22     UN documents we have just seen show that civilians were killed from

23     sniper fire originating from the house for the blind children.  Do you

24     accept that that was the case?

25        A.   I am not saying that they didn't get killed.  I suppose that they

Page 22555

 1     did.  But I claim with full responsibility that it was not due to sniper

 2     fire.  If I'd been told that an individual bullet hit a child or an

 3     elderly woman, I would have said that it was possible because our rifles

 4     were set on salvo fire.  But I claim with full responsibility that we

 5     didn't open sniper fire from those positions because it was against our

 6     interest.

 7        Q.   Mr. Guzina, it's correct, isn't it, that no disciplinary steps

 8     were ever taken against any soldiers in your battalion in response to

 9     accusations of sniping Bosnian Muslim civilians?

10        A.   Of course not.  No measures were taken because we did not open

11     fire on civilians.  And this is my answer.

12        Q.   I'd like to move on to scheduled sniping incident F9 which you

13     discussed in paragraph 47 of your statement.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, I've read the statement in that respect.

15     Could we first inquire whether the witness has any knowledge about the

16     incident itself rather than drawing conclusions from what he may have

17     heard.

18             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honour.

19        Q.   And, Mr. Witness, it's actually correct, isn't it, that you have

20     no personal knowledge of sniping incident F9?

21        A.   The first time I heard of that was in the Karadzic case.

22        Q.   I'd like to discuss a document, an SRK combat report, that you

23     refer to in the same paragraph 47 of your statement and that you connect

24     to this particular sniping incident.

25             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 1D02122.

Page 22556

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  For the record, this is Exhibit D518,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you.  Could we see Exhibit D518, please.

 4        Q.   Mr. Guzina, during the Karadzic case, you were asked if you were

 5     aware that the sniping incident that you've just commented on occurred at

 6     7.00 or 7.30 in the evening on the 26th of June, and you confirmed that

 7     you were not aware of that; correct?

 8        A.   If this has been recorded, then that's what I said.

 9        Q.   Now this document on the screen before us --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, is there any disagreement that the

11     recorded words are as they were presented by Mr. Jeremy?  Because

12     otherwise we end up with an assumption which is not verified, that those

13     were the words of this witness.

14             Any dispute about what the witness said in Karadzic in this

15     respect, Mr. Stojanovic?

16             No, no dispute about that.  Please proceed.

17             MR. JEREMY:

18        Q.   Mr. Guzina, this document dated 26th of June, 1994, and timed at

19     1700 hours refers to a series of events that occurred at particular times

20     and at particular locations.  Let's start with the times.

21             So the first times referenced are 2020 hours and 2215 on the

22     25th of June, 1994, so the day before this particular sniping incident.

23     And again I see and I make the point that this combat report is timed at

24     1700 hours on the 26th of June.

25             So, Mr. Guzina, it's correct, isn't it, that all the events

Page 22557

 1     referred to in this document are the night before or at the very least

 2     two hours before the sniping incident that was described to you; yes?

 3        A.   Yes, it says that all that activity took place on the

 4     25th of June, 1994.  In the next paragraph it says, and I apologise,

 5     engineering works were taking place in the Sucura Kuca [phoen] sector,

 6     which is in Nedzarici.  I suppose that we opened fire to make things

 7     stop, although this is not mentioned in here.  It says here that we

 8     complained to the UN, they came, and they put a stop to those works

 9     immediately.

10        Q.   Mr. Guzina, let's take a look at the locations referred to in

11     this first paragraph, and these are the locations from where firing is

12     suggested to have originated from on to Serb positions.  So first, Kovaci

13     and Glavogodina.  Now, they are in the Hrasnica area, correct?

14        A.   In the sector of the 2nd Battalion of the Ilidza Brigade.  That's

15     before you reach Hrasnica from Ilidza.

16        Q.   And the Vrutci, V-r-u-t-c-i, sector, that's at the west end of

17     Ilidza at the foot of Mount Igman; correct?

18        A.   Again, in the area of defence of the 2nd Battalion.  And yes, it

19     is at the foot of Mount Igman.

20        Q.   Fire is also indicated to have come from the direction of the

21     cold storage plant.  That's in Stup, correct?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, when exactly was the incident reported

23     to have taken place?  26th of June, 7.00 p.m.?

24             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Why are we then going into any detail?  When the

Page 22558

 1     witness says that this document dated the 26th of June which reports the

 2     situation at 5.00 p.m., then I don't need to go through the whole of that

 3     document to find out that what is found in this document cannot -- well,

 4     if there is any claim to this explaining what happened at 7.00, then I

 5     would say let's look at the report of the next day to see.  But to go

 6     into all the details of this, is there really a need for that?

 7             Witness, would you agree that the report which was describing the

 8     situation finishing two hours before the incident could not possibly

 9     explain what happened at two hours after that moment where the report was

10     said to -- to describe the situation?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are right, Judge, sir.  And I

12     will give the same answer for the previous questions.  The positions were

13     the same.  I already answered that question.  It was a Muslim

14     provocation, nothing else.  And the same goes for the Institute for the

15     Blind and the sniping from there.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  It's all Muslim provocations and thus -- but you

17     said on the basis of this document that this alleged incident - alleged

18     meaning that it was not true, I do understand - can be attributed to what

19     is written down in this report.  Would you agree with me if the report

20     describes the situation at 5.00 p.m., that it cannot reasonably explain

21     what happened at 7.00 p.m.?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that this makes sense,

23     that you're right.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

25             MR. JEREMY:  That concludes my examination on this particular

Page 22559

 1     area, Your Honours.  I know we're at break time.  I've got one more area

 2     to move to.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then we'll first take a break.

 4             Could the witness follow the usher.  We take a break of

 5     20 minutes.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, just one observation.  Earlier as well

 8     you compared the statement of this witness with his Karadzic statement.

 9     Now, an area was left out, I think it was G8, and in that statement I

10     think that he had said that he doesn't know anything about it.  Why to

11     revisit here where apparently, perhaps logically, it's taken out of the

12     statement, to deny something which doesn't even appear in his statement?

13     Or at least to seek confirmation of something which is apparently, and

14     most likely on purpose, is left out?  Perhaps you find it during the

15     break.

16             MR. JEREMY:  Yeah, I'll respond to that after the break, if

17     that's all right, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll take a break and we'll resume at

19     20 minutes to 2.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 1.22 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 1.42 p.m.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy.

23             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honour, just to follow-up on your question

24     about incident G6.  My intention --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It was G6, yes.

Page 22560

 1             MR. JEREMY:  My intention by drawing attention to that was simply

 2     given the importance of this scheduled incident, I simply wanted to draw

 3     the Chamber's attention to the fact that the witness had no personal

 4     knowledge of this incident, that he was on sick leave at this time.

 5     That's --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but --

 7             MR. JEREMY:  That's not in the witness's statement.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but he had not given any statement about G6, so

10     therefore to say he doesn't know about something he doesn't talk about, I

11     would expect most witnesses not to know anything about matters which they

12     are not giving statements about.

13             MR. JEREMY:  My thinking, Your Honours, was simply to exclude the

14     possibility that any general comments could pertain on that incident, but

15     I certainly take the point you've made to me.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

17             MR. JEREMY:

18        Q.   Mr. Guzina, you had regular contact with the French UNPROFOR

19     troops situated at the airport; correct?

20        A.   Yes.  On the orders of the corps and the brigade commander, I had

21     daily contact with UNPROFOR and their liaison officers.

22        Q.   Do you recall setting up a meeting in your capacity as -- or do

23     you recall setting up a meeting through UNPROFOR liaison officers in

24     July 1995?

25        A.   If you explain to me what this is about, I might remember.

Page 22561

 1             MR. JEREMY:  Can we please see Exhibit P751.  And the original is

 2     written in French, but if we could just please have on our screens the

 3     English and the B/C/S translations.

 4        Q.   Mr. Guzina, this is a 9 July 1995 UNPROFOR memorandum from a

 5     Captain Guegan to Colonel Meille, deputy commander of Sector Sarajevo.

 6     The subject of the memorandum is a meeting between Captain Guegan and a

 7     liaison officer of the Ilidza Brigade, Captain Novak Prodanovic.  Now,

 8     Captain Prodanovic was your brigade's liaison officer; correct?

 9        A.   Yes, Novak Prodanovic was a liaison officer first in my battalion

10     and then he moved to the brigade command.

11        Q.   According to the second paragraph this meeting was instigated by

12     a first contact on 8 July with Captain Svetozar Guzina, aka, Sesa.

13     Captain Guegan contacted you to arrange this meeting, yes?

14        A.   Probably.

15        Q.   The paragraph goes on to say:

16             "It seems that the meeting has been approved by

17     General Milosevic, commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps by phone

18     conversation heard by S/O interpreter of BATINF 2."

19             Do you recall obtaining General Milosevic's approval for this

20     meeting?

21        A.   There was obviously a mistake there and there's a mistake here

22     when it says that the commander of the 1st Battalion was based in

23     Nedzarici.  I was based in Kasindolska Street.  The second mistake is

24     that I couldn't skip Colonel Radojcic and speak to General Milosevic, the

25     brigade commander, so I believe the interpreter must have misheard and

Page 22562

 1     this is misquoted.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I stop you there.

 3             The question was not to find all the mistakes in the report, but

 4     the question was whether you recall that General Milosevic had approved

 5     the meeting.  Do you remember that?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

 8             MR. JEREMY:

 9        Q.   Mr. Guzina, in the next paragraph we read that:

10             "The liaison officer arrived at the 1st Battalion CP at

11     0900 hours today."

12             Were you present at this meeting?  Do you recall?

13        A.   I could have been.  I probably was.  You have to know that every

14     single day I had contacts with the UNPROFOR.  And if it is written here,

15     it's probably true.

16             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go to page 3 in this document, please, in

17     English and B/C/S.

18        Q.   Mr. Guzina, during this meeting, Captain Novak Prodanovic points

19     out a number of facts to the UNPROFOR liaison officer.  Now, directing

20     your attention to the middle of the page of the B/C/S translation, which

21     is the last page of the English version, one of the facts acknowledged by

22     Captain Prodanovic was "that Krema rockets had been fired on the city of

23     Sarajevo (about a dozen)."

24             Mr. Guzina, is it correct that Krema rockets were -- was the

25     expression that you used to refer to rockets that had been modified with

Page 22563

 1     aerial bombs?

 2        A.   This is the first time I see this name, Krema.  Never heard it

 3     before.  I knew about modified rockets that had been fired, but I never

 4     heard this name before.

 5        Q.   The next sentence in this paragraph indicates that

 6     Captain Prodanovic further explained:

 7             "This was psychological warfare aimed at upsetting the Bosnian

 8     soldiers engaged on the Treskavica front who would be worried about the

 9     safety of their families in Sarajevo."

10             Mr. Guzina, is it correct that the SRK fired on the city of

11     Sarajevo when combat operations were taking place elsewhere outside of

12     the city, like the Treskavica front, for example?

13        A.   To the best of my knowledge, we used these rockets but only on

14     legitimate targets in Sarajevo and for the special units of the army and

15     the police, when Muslim civilians were allowed to leave Sarajevo.

16        Q.   In the next few sentences --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, Witness, why not answer the question?  The

18     question was whether the SRK fired on the city in response to or at least

19     in relation to combat operations which were taking place elsewhere in the

20     country.  That was the question.  Not whether you fired at legitimate

21     targets.  Not -- listen to the question and please answer the question.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've heard about this activity

23     but I was never on site when these rockets were fired.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No, the question again is --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And it was not in my area of

Page 22564

 1     responsibility.  You should ask the brigade commander if he ever comes

 2     here.  It was his job.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You have no knowledge about rockets being fired in

 4     relation to events that happened somewhere else in the country, but the

 5     rockets nevertheless being fired at Sarajevo?  You have no knowledge

 6     about that?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard about it but I didn't see

 8     it with my own eyes.  That's the kind of knowledge I have.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, of course, you can't see with your own eyes

10     that it is in relation to combat operations elsewhere in the country,

11     because that's -- you only can learn about that.  Are you aware of any

12     firing of projectiles on the city of Sarajevo which was in direct

13     relation to events which happened outside the Sarajevo theatre?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Obviously we didn't understand each

15     other.  What I am saying is this:  The firing of air rockets at the city

16     of Sarajevo was not done from my area of responsibility.  Second, I was

17     not present when these rockets were fired from the area of the

18     Ilidza Brigade.  Third, the fact is we had orders during Muslim offensive

19     at Treskavica and elsewhere outside our area of responsibility, we had

20     orders from our staff to locate one target in the area of our battalion

21     and try to capture it in order to distract Muslim forces from leaving

22     Sarajevo, to bring them back by making them believe that we would

23     continue to fire at the city and such things happened.  I know about

24     that.  There was one feature like that that we chose on the orders of the

25     Main Staff at --

Page 22565

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the name of the

 2     hill.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And that is the case that I

 4     mentioned in -- that was mentioned in the report that was shown to me

 5     during my testimony.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you said "on the orders of the Main Staff at"

 7     and then you referred to a hill.  Could you repeat what hill you referred

 8     to there?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mentioned Betonara, a concrete

10     building located on the first combat line, a building where the Muslims

11     were.  I don't remember mentioning a hill.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

13             MR. JEREMY:

14        Q.   Mr. Guzina, in the next few sentences we read the following:

15             "In fact, two Krema rockets were launched on the Television

16     building.  One of them hit it and consequently, according to

17     Captain Novak, journalists might have reported on the incident and the

18     Bosnian soldiers were informed about the existence of these weapons

19     called Terror."

20             Mr. Guzina, it's correct, isn't it, that the Ilidza Brigade fired

21     these modified rockets hoping that they would hit the inside of the city

22     of Sarajevo and be reported as weapons of terror; yes?

23        A.   I don't think it's true.  But to me, the television building was

24     a legitimate target.  At the very beginning I went into that building

25     before the war even began, and I saw inside a lot of weapons.  The

Page 22566

 1     television building was a legitimate target to me, especially since they

 2     spread propaganda long before the war.  As for the rest, you could call

 3     that captain and ask him.  I don't know.

 4        Q.   Witness, you've just mentioned the television building.  The

 5     captain acknowledged that Krema rockets were fired on the city of

 6     Sarajevo and he referred to about a dozen.  Is it your position that the

 7     city of Sarajevo was a -- also a legitimate target?

 8        A.   I didn't say that.  I said the television building was a

 9     legitimate target.  I didn't say the other thing.  You are trying to put

10     words into my mouth.  It's true I have been here for four hours, but I'm

11     still able follow what you're saying.

12        Q.   Mr. Guzina, you would agree that the use -- that these modified

13     aerial bombs were used on the city of Sarajevo as a means of

14     psychological warfare; correct?

15        A.   I cannot agree with you.  You should ask that question of the

16     brigade commander and the corps commander, the people who issued those

17     orders.  In my area of responsibility it didn't happen.  I could only

18     give you my opinion, but it's not qualified, concerning these rockets.  I

19     am not a expert for aerial bombs, how much damage they can cause, and all

20     the rest.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Guzina.

22             MR. JEREMY:  No further questions, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jeremy.

24             Mr. Stojanovic, any further questions for the witness?

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A few, Your Honours.

Page 22567

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I'm also looking at the clock.  If

 2     you would be able to conclude today, that, of course, would be

 3     preferable.  At the same time, I don't want to put any pressure upon your

 4     re-examination.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we call up in e-court

 7     P3059 again, please.

 8                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, you have already answered questions on

10     this document.  I would like to ask you to concentrate on point 6, where

11     we read:

12             "The treatment of civilian population:

13             "SRK units are pulling civilians out and into the Lukavica

14     barracks, whereas prisoners are put into" --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We have the --

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   -- "KP Dom Kula --"

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have the second page in English on our

19     screens.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Is it -- is the Lukavica barracks outside your area?

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the witness's

23     answer.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.  Is it

25     or is it not outside your area of responsibility?

Page 22568

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was outside my area of

 2     responsibility.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5        Q.   Is the Lukavica barracks outside of the area of responsibility of

 6     the Ilidza Brigade?

 7        A.   Yes, it's also outside the area of the Ilidza Brigade.  We have

 8     no connection with it.

 9        Q.   Let me ask you about the KPD Kula.  Is this building outside the

10     area of defence of your battalion and your brigade?

11        A.   Yes, it's on the other side of the airport.

12        Q.   Was the purpose of extracting civilians to the Lukavica barracks

13     clear to you and what was it?

14        A.   Well, as we extracted civilians to the airport building, these

15     commanders also extracted their civilians to those buildings to save

16     their lives and later exchange them.

17        Q.   Was the intensity of the fighting such that there could have been

18     collateral damage among civilians?

19        A.   If we hadn't done that, many civilians would have been killed.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  One short question between.  You said civilians, to

21     save their lives and to later exchange them.  Were civilians subject to

22     exchange or were they free to go wherever they wanted to go?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were able to go wherever they

24     wanted, but the people who captured them would see their IDs, would see

25     who they were, and decide whether they were free to go wherever they

Page 22569

 1     wanted because there were soldiers among these civilians.  I think that

 2     was --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- okay on our part.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So the whole reference to exchange is a slip of the

 6     tongue or is not true?  Because exchanges, if you change -- exchange one

 7     person for another, you give me that person, I give you this person, so

 8     that did not -- that was just a mistake that you said that?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand your question.  I said

10     if there were any soldiers among them, they would be exchanged.  The

11     other civilians had freedom of movement.  That's what I wanted to

12     emphasize.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you are recorded to have said:

14             "These commanders also extracted their civilians to those

15     buildings to save their lives and later exchange them."

16             Is it your claim that you said at that time that to save their

17     lives and if there were found soldiers among them, then that these

18     soldiers would then be exchanged?  Is it your claim that you said that?

19     Or did you say to save their lives and later exchange them referring to

20     civilians in general?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I remember well, I said all

22     civilians that we found in the airport neighbourhood without any

23     distinction, we didn't see their IDs right there, we evacuated them

24     straight to the airport building where the civilian police was in charge

25     of checking their IDs.  And if there were any soldiers among them,

Page 22570

 1     according to our intelligence --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You may have used that in the second round, although

 3     not in the same words, as an explanation, but your first statement was

 4     about saving the life of civilians and then exchange them.  Do you

 5     contest that that's what you said?  Because then we'll verify it.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's possible that I said that, but

 7     my thinking is what I'm telling you now.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I was asking you about what you said.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I try to clear something here with you,

10     Mr. Witness.  I think what Mr. Stojanovic is talking to you about are the

11     civilians that were taken to Kula KPD and the Lukavica barracks which you

12     say were outside your area of responsibility.  He's not talking about the

13     people that you sent to the airport, as I understand him.  And these are

14     the people who were outside the area which you say where the civilians

15     were exchanged, so don't confuse that question with the people that came

16     to the airport.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And now listen carefully to the next question that

18     Mr. Stojanovic will put to you.

19             Mr. Stojanovic.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From what I understand of the

21     question by the lawyer, it was the same operation.  Only the

22     2nd Sarajevo Brigade and the Ilidza Brigade were attacking Dobrinja and

23     they extracted civilians to different places on their respective sides.

24     That's how I understood the question.  Because I don't even know

25     what's -- what was happening in Kula.  It was my assumption that that's

Page 22571

 1     what they were doing.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   The last question on this document.  In this activity, at any

 5     point in time, did you have orders to evacuate the civilian population

 6     from Dobrinja against their will?

 7        A.   No, we didn't have such orders.  I claim that with full

 8     responsibility.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  At one point you were asked whether the term

10     "poturice" that you had occasion to hear was considered by you as

11     derogatory.  You said no.  Could you please tell the Court why you did

12     not use that term in a negative context?

13        A.   Because "poturice," in my mind, is a convert and people converted

14     to a different faith during the Ottoman empire.  And we know from history

15     that many Muslim names were new names taken by formerly Serb-named

16     families and I don't think that's an offence to the Muslims.  Just as we

17     call them the Bosniaks today, before that we called them Muslims, and

18     even before that we called them "poturice," meaning Turkish converts.  I

19     don't know if this explanation is good enough.

20        Q.   And I'm going to finish with a question related to the document

21     of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the 26th of July at 1700 hours, that was

22     before the break.  The combat activities precisely along that line of the

23     defence sector of your battalion, were they of such intensity that that

24     could be treated by way of every day fighting?

25        A.   I can guarantee and claim with full responsibility that the area

Page 22572

 1     of my battalion, the 1st Battalion of the Ilidza Brigade, was the worst

 2     line in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps for the following reasons:  We had a

 3     very unfavourable situation, an enormous number of high-rise buildings in

 4     Dobrinja that are not in this map at all, Mojmilo hill which is dominant

 5     in that area.  Then Sokolje which is dominant in that area.  Whoever was

 6     in that area knows the situation under which we waged war.  Many soldiers

 7     from the Ilijas, Vogosca, Rajlovac Brigade, not to mention the

 8     Ilidza Brigade, they came to Nedzarici by way of punishment.  They were

 9     penalised.  There could have been no greater punishment than being there

10     and being in Aerodromsko Naselje.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We could not hear

12     Mr. Stojanovic.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, first of all you referred to the

14     26th of July.  May I take it that that was a slip of the tongue, that you

15     refer to the 26th of June.  Yes, and you announced this as, I think, your

16     last question.  So we know that there are usually ten more to follow, but

17     could you perhaps really put your last question then to the witness.

18     Well, or not more than two.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So I will finish with this

20     question.

21        Q.   This fighting in the area of the Institute for Blind Children, in

22     view of this last answer of yours, could that be treated as daily

23     fighting, daily combat?

24        A.   Yes, at the institute, Vitkovici, the red house, the airport

25     neighbourhood, every day there was fighting.  And what I stated a moment

Page 22573

 1     ago, I think that you heard that, my order was that there should be

 2     bursts of gun-fire using automatic weapons simply because the line was so

 3     close and it was possible for the Muslims to enter our positions by

 4     running over these 30 or 40 metres.  That could have happened at any

 5     moment.

 6        Q.   Thank you for having testified today.

 7        A.   Thank you for having asked me to come.  I hope that I was of use.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, any further questions triggered by the

 9     re-examination?

10             MR. JEREMY:  No, Your Honours.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Guzina, since the Chamber has no further

12     questions for you either, this concludes your testimony.  I would like to

13     thank you very much for coming to The Hague, which is quite a journey,

14     and to have answered all the questions that were put to you by the

15     parties and by the Bench.  And I wish you a safe return home again.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

18                           [The witness withdrew]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, for tomorrow, the Chamber was informed that

20     the - and I think we can deal with it in open session - the medical

21     examination could be postponed until 3.00.  The Chamber also inquired

22     into the time needed for lunch and the Chamber received information that

23     Mr. Mladic usually gets his lunch package with him and that there is no

24     need to reserve extra time for that.  So therefore it seems that the

25     presence of Mr. Mladic tomorrow can be secured and we don't have to give

Page 22574

 1     up on this one session.

 2             Mr. Weber, you're about to be on your feet.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 4             This afternoon there is a matter that came to the Prosecution's

 5     attention in conjunction with the proofing note for the next witness, and

 6     it's actually an urgent matter that relates to the next witness that's to

 7     be heard tomorrow.  Ms. Hasan is present and is available to address the

 8     matter briefly with the Chamber before we break today, if that's

 9     possible.  If not, we could further address it through other means, but

10     it does relate to the next testimony -- the next witness.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course it comes as a surprise to us as well.  I'm

12     trying to finish on time and then -- is Ms. Hasan in a position to

13     explain it in one minute or one minute and a half, so that we know at

14     least what we are talking about and that we also know whether we have to

15     further discuss it in court or whether it can be dealt with in a

16     different way this afternoon?

17             MS. HASAN:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.  Just to

18     try and encapsulate the issue here.  The next witness,

19     Mr. Milorad Batinic, had a statement filed with a 92 ter package, and a

20     few days after the filing of that statement we received a witness

21     acknowledgement with a signature.

22             In receiving the proofing note, which arrived yesterday evening,

23     it occurred to me that the paragraph numbering referenced there for

24     corrections and additions to the statement did not match the original

25     statement filed to the 92 ter package.  Going on to e-court, I discovered

Page 22575

 1     that the -- a new statement, if I can call it that, has been uploaded.

 2     The statement that has been uploaded comprises of five pages in B/C/S,

 3     six in English, whereas the old statement, the original one, was

 4     nine pages in English.

 5             With changes to the statement, additions, I haven't gone through

 6     it in detail, done a comparison, and the signature appended to the, what

 7     I'm calling the new statement, is -- bears the same date as the witness

 8     acknowledgement appended to the original statement.  So --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. --

10             MS. HASAN:  -- I'm quite perplexed.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps at this moment we ask for a brief

12     explanation in one minute.

13             Has it got anything to do with copying and pasting statements

14     from previous cases because that -- I would not -- Mr. Lukic, any

15     explanation for this mysterious two versions signed on the same date?

16             MR. LUKIC:  I have only one in front of me.  I will have to check

17     with my Case Manager and I will contact Ms. Hasan as soon as I

18     check [overlapping speakers] --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and then we will hear whether the matter will

20     be resolved.  Otherwise, we'll hear tomorrow morning where we stand and

21     whether the Prosecution is in a position to cross-examine the witness and

22     what statement will be tendered.  We do not know yet, but it's -- what

23     you told us certainly would require thorough attention, Mr. Lukic, not

24     only on what the situation is but also how that situation arose.

25             We leave it to that at this moment.  And with our thanks to all

Page 22576

 1     those assisting us for four minutes longer than expected, we adjourn for

 2     the day and we will resume tomorrow, Thursday, the 12th of June, at 9.30

 3     in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.20 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 12th day

 6                           of June, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.