Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22668

 1                           Friday, 13 June 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Mr. Lukic, I think yesterday I promised to give you an

12     opportunity to raise the matter which you just touched upon for a second

13     only at that time.

14             Please make whatever submissions you wish to make.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16             Your Honours, yesterday at transcript page T-22629, lines 6 to

17     10, asked that we without delay address Your Honours on the issue of

18     Mr. Mladic not being able to endure the five-day sitting schedule for

19     trial and asking for a four-day week.  I will take this opportunity to

20     outline our submissions.

21             As Your Honours know, during the Prosecution phase of the trial,

22     we had the expert medical testimony of two medical doctors from Serbia.

23     They described the mental and physical health of Mr. Mladic and diagnosed

24     him with the risk of transient ischemic attack or mini strokes resulting

25     from his mental limitations and stress created by emotional testimony.

Page 22669

 1     These transient ischemic attacks, per the doctors, can lead to death.  In

 2     order to minimise the risk of the same, these doctors recommended a

 3     four-day -- four-day sitting week with Wednesday as a day off from trial,

 4     a day of rest for General Mladic.

 5             Your Honours will recall that -- that the UNDU medical office

 6     likewise supported a four-day sitting week with Wednesday as a day of

 7     rest.  During the very last part of the Prosecution case in-chief, we sat

 8     pursuant to the four-day sitting schedule.  The UNDU medical office has

 9     regularly reported to Your Honours the benefits of that sitting schedule

10     upon Mr. Mladic as -- and his continued -- and has continued to recommend

11     that this same schedule be applied during the Defence case.

12             Your Honours will recall that a team of three doctors was

13     appointed by the Registry to examine Mr. Mladic at the UNDU and this took

14     place on 27th of November 2013.  You will recall that one of these

15     doctors, Dr. Sabri El Bana, examined Mr. Mladic on 10th January 2014 and

16     agreed with his colleagues.  It is presumed that he meant the Serbian

17     doctors on the issue of transient ischemic attack, because he recommended

18     a four-day trial sitting week, just as they had.

19             Since the Defence case has started, the UNDU medical report filed

20     weekly has repeatedly recommended to the Chamber that the four-day

21     sitting schedule similar to the Prosecution phase of the case be employed

22     during this phase of the case.

23             Thus, Your Honours, we have a total of four medical

24     professionals, two Serbian, and -- engaged by the Defence team, one from

25     UNDU and one independently appointed by the Registry, who are all

Page 22670

 1     recommending due to the health of Mr. Mladic that we sit for four days a

 2     week instead of five.

 3             Now, we are telling that you Mr. Mladic himself expresses his

 4     fatigue and ill effects on his health from having the five-day schedule,

 5     thus far imposed during the Defence case in-chief.  Mr. Mladic would like

 6     to add that it is his understanding that many other accused had four-day

 7     sitting schedules who do not even have the medical impairments that he

 8     suffers from, such as Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Karadzic, and in the case of

 9     Mr. Prlic et al.  Mr. Mladic feels he is being treated unequally in

10     relation to these other accused.

11             Accordingly, based on the medical professionals who have stated

12     on paper that we should be sitting four days a week with Wednesday as a

13     rest day, we would ask Your Honours to give due deference to these

14     doctors' opinions and schedule four days of trial a week with Wednesday

15     as a day of rest to provide benefit to Mr. Mladic for his medical

16     impairments.

17             That was all we had, Your Honours.  Thank you for the opportunity

18     to address this issue.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

20             Mr. Groome, do you want to respond and do you want to do it now

21     or would you --

22             MR. GROOME:  I'll make some submissions now, Your Honour.  But

23     before I do, can I just inquire of Mr. Lukic:  Several weeks ago I had

24     the impression that there were additional experts being brought in by the

25     Defence to do additional examinations of Mr. Mladic, could I have an

Page 22671

 1     update of that?  Is there something pending or are there additional

 2     reports we can view?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  That is really pending.  Those doctors never appeared

 4     and we are still waiting for them.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Okay.  So in that case, Your Honour, the

 6     Prosecution's response or submissions regarding this request is as

 7     follows.

 8             Any unnecessary delays to the trial should be avoided.  I think

 9     the victims of the crimes and the international community have an

10     important interest in the expeditious conclusion of this trial.  It is

11     the Prosecution's submission that in order for the Chamber to grant the

12     request of the Defence, the Chamber must find that shortening the work

13     week is medically necessary.  In turn for the Chamber to find that a

14     reduction is medically necessary, two criteria must be met.

15             First that medical personnel directly responsible for the care of

16     the accused or engaged as experts to evaluate his health are of the

17     opinion that a shortened week is medically necessary.  I note in this

18     regard the current opinion of the medical staff of the UNDU that a

19     four-day court schedule will be generally beneficial to Mr. Mladic's

20     health.  The Prosecution submits that the fact that his health would

21     generally benefit from a shortened work week is insufficient to establish

22     that a reduction of the work week is medically necessary.  I am sure that

23     each of our physicians would say that our general health would be

24     improved by an additional day devoted to rest and relaxation.

25             Second, any medical recommendation for a shortened work week

Page 22672

 1     should be based on objectively observable criteria.  As far as the

 2     medical information that we regularly receive, General Mladic's values

 3     for key indicators of health have consistently been within normal range

 4     and his treatment plan has remained unchanged for quite some time now.

 5     Absent any evidence to the contrary or evidence of -- absent any evidence

 6     of abnormalities, there is no basis for reducing the working schedule.

 7             Finally while the Chamber's determination of this request must be

 8     made on factors directly related to Mladic's health and its impact on

 9     trial proceedings, it is not unrelated to the way in which the Defence

10     case is being conducted.  We are now a month into the Defence case, and I

11     think it is a fair observation that a substantial part of the Defence

12     case to date consists of evidence which is clearly tu quoque.  It is also

13     I think fair to say that tu quoque evidence is that is being led by the

14     Defence probably consumes a day or more of each week's work.

15             Some witnesses offer little more than tu quoque evidence.  For

16     example, out of the 29 paragraphs --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, there may be a technical problem.

18             Is there a technical problem, Mr. Stojanovic?  Could you please

19     consult with Mr. Mladic.

20             MR. LUKIC:  I just heard from my colleague that there is no B/C/S

21     translation.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we'll -- I'll --

23             MR. LUKIC:  It's been solved.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, it's at least I receive B/C/S

25     translation if I move to channel 6.

Page 22673

 1             MR. GROOME:  Okay.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  So if I suggest that we proceed.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I was speaking about the example of

 4     Dragan Lalovic.  Out of the 29 paragraphs in his 92 ter evidence, only

 5     two had direct bearing on this case.  Much was in exposition of his

 6     military career and events that can only be characterised as tu quoque.

 7     Last week a substantial amount of time was spent trying to understand

 8     with precision the evidence of the protected witnesses regarding how many

 9     severed heads he alleged were hung from a church door and how many he

10     alleged were tied around the necks of dogs.  While I appreciate the

11     Chamber has an obligation to ensure that any evidence that is adduced is

12     both clear and precise, I was unable to discern how this evidence would

13     ultimately assist the Chamber in its determination of the charges in the

14     indictment.

15             So to return to the issue of the Defence's request for a

16     shortened work week, I ask the Defence to re-evaluate the time it is

17     taking adducing evidence that is purely tu quoque.  For our part, the

18     Prosecution will now be more consistent in raising objection to such

19     evidence in both this written and oral forms.

20             I ask the Court to reflect on the amount of time spent on such

21     issues and whether such will ultimately be germane to its deliberations,

22     and if not then to exercise its oversight of proceedings in a way that

23     minimise's the time spent on such matters.  At least then if we reach a

24     stage when a reduced work week becomes medically necessary, it will have

25     less impact on the overall length of the trial and the prospect of

Page 22674

 1     justice for victims of these crimes.

 2             Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, in your response you have not addressed

 4     the inequality raised by Mr. Lukic comparing the situation of Mr. Mladic

 5     with Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Tolimir, and Mr. Prlic and others.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I do not know the specific

 7     circumstances of those cases and what -- what was the basis of those

 8     Chambers' deciding that the interests of justice required four-day work

 9     weeks.  If the Chamber would like us to investigate that and would like

10     submissions on that, but I -- I suggest that the -- the -- the

11     determination is more properly made on this Chamber's assessment of the

12     factors that it is aware of and that the determination should not be

13     based upon a superficial comparison with -- with what other Chambers have

14     decided with respect to what the interests of justice required in those

15     trials.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

17             Mr. Lukic, do you want to --

18             MR. LUKIC:  I will.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- reply --

20             MR. LUKIC:  Just briefly.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Just briefly, yes.

22             MR. LUKIC:  My learned friend raised the issue of necessary

23     medical -- medically necessary test.  We think it is medically necessary

24     somebody can die because of a -- fatigue.  We think it's medically

25     necessary enough to show that, and it's obviously shown in previous

Page 22675

 1     reports.

 2             In regard of tu quoque Defence, I would strongly disagree with my

 3     colleague that we brought witnesses that are tu quoque witnesses.  The

 4     fact is that Dragan Lalovic was the witness who was actually testifying

 5     about the period before the war, so he did not have much to say about

 6     the -- the -- our -- our indictment but doesn't mean that it's not

 7     necessary to show the period that led to the war.  And we have to see the

 8     full picture.  If we watch a box match and we can see only one boxer,

 9     it's senseless if he just waves his hands if the other boxer is

10     invisible.  We have to see the other boxer to see the boxing match to see

11     the real situation, so we have to show the situation on the ground.

12     Showing only one side will not help this Court to understand that period

13     of time in Bosnia-Herzegovina and to understand the war and to understand

14     what happened because of that war if we watch only one side.

15             Thank you, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.  The Chamber will consider the

17     request and we'll also consider whether we need further submissions or

18     whether we'll decide on the request on the basis of what has been

19     presented until now.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will also consider at what point in time

22     we'll decide on the motion and whether we'll wait for the outcome of the

23     examination that took place yesterday.  I don't know exactly when to

24     expect a report, but we'll further inquire into that.

25             Then I think we are at the point where we could have the witness

Page 22676

 1     in so as to continue his cross-examination.

 2             Mr. Usher.

 3             It also gives me an opportunity to deal with the following

 4     matter.

 5             On the 3rd of June of this year, the document bearing Rule 65 ter

 6     number 1D3239 was assigned Exhibit D505 and marked for identification due

 7     to its not being accompanied by a B/C/S translation.  On the 11th of

 8     June, the Defence informed the Chamber and the Prosecution that the B/C/S

 9     translation of the document in question has been uploaded into e-court

10     under document ID 1D09-2433.  The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry

11     to attach the B/C/S translation to D505 and admits the exhibit into

12     evidence.

13             If there are any further questions about the translation, then,

14     of course, the Chamber would like to hear from the Prosecution within the

15     next two working days.

16             Ms. Hasan.

17             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, Your Honours, good morning to everyone

18     in and around the courtroom.

19             Just to inquire whether VWS was able to retrieve a statement from

20     the witness yesterday.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And it has been provided to the Chamber and a

22     copy will be provided to the parties.  But it is, as far as we could see,

23     it's one of the two other statements.  Most likely the one -- the

24     25-paragraph.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 22677

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me be careful.  Let me see whether it's --

 2     it's -- yes.  It's a 25-paragraph statement which very much resembles,

 3     apart from one or two handwritten short notes in B/C/S, which very much

 4     resembles what we've seen before.  But you'll be provided with a copy.

 5             MS. HASAN:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning --

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Batinic.  We'll continue.  I would

 9     like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration

10     you've given at the beginning of your testimony.  Ms. Hasan will now

11     continue her cross-examination.

12             Please proceed.

13                           WITNESS:  MILORAD BATINIC [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Cross-examination by Ms. Hasan: [Continued]

16        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Batinic.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   Now we've seen the notes that you provided to the Chamber

19     yesterday.  These are the notes that you said Mr. Lukic gave you.  Could

20     you please tell us when that was?  When were you given those documents?

21        A.   I did not say that those notes were given by Mr. Lukic.  It was

22     Mr. Dundjer.

23        Q.   Let's make sure we're talking about the same thing.  I'm talking

24     about the list of questions on which you had put some handwritten notes.

25     Were those provided to you by Mr. Dundjer or Mr. Lukic?

Page 22678

 1        A.   Yes.  Now I know what this is all about.  This is the list.

 2     However, yesterday I provided another list as well to the driver of this

 3     Tribunal so that he could bring that to you.  Hence, the confusion.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's the -- I take it that's the -- the

 5     statement he had kept which Madam Registrar will provide you a copy of.

 6             MS. HASAN:  Thank you for that.

 7        Q.   So the -- the ones that we're talking about, the list of

 8     questions you have before you, when were those given to you?

 9        A.   The list of questions, I think it was two days ago --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.

13             MS. HASAN:

14        Q.   And who was present at that meeting?

15        A.   You mean Mr. Lukic?

16        Q.   Yes.  Was anyone else present?

17        A.   It was just me and Mr. Lukic.

18        Q.   Now, yesterday at transcript page 22602, lines 4 to 5, Judge Orie

19     asked you a question about that list.  And he asked you whether there

20     were only questions or if there were hints to answers or any other notes.

21     And you responded:  "No, it's simply questions," and that had you made

22     some notes?

23             MS. HASAN:  If we could call up 65 ter 30803.

24        Q.   Now, sir, it's possible that the Chamber didn't translate your

25     notes based on the answer you gave, but we have translated those into

Page 22679

 1     English and that's what he you're going to see now.

 2             Now, under the heading "Armament," it will come up in a moment,

 3     and I can see you have your hard copy in front of you, just on the first

 4     page of your notes --

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is the wrong page, I think.

 6             MS. HASAN:  Yes.  That's the wrong B/C/S.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  On the right side of the screen, it's --

 8             MS. HASAN:  I'm sorry.  We have the right --

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- totally different.

10             MS. HASAN:  Sorry.  Yeah, the right side of the screen should be

11     the English.  If we can go to the next page, please.  Thank you.

12        Q.   Under the heading "Armament," about -- little under -- little

13     below halfway down that page, there's a question there and it says:

14             "What did people feel at the time [sic]?"

15             Do you see that, sir?  It's at the bottom of the B/C/S page.  And

16     we can see next to that you've -- I take it those are your handwritten

17     notes where you've written fear and uncertainty, helplessness, and so on

18     and so forth.

19             MS. HASAN:  If we could turn to the second B/C/S page, please.

20             Now, Witness, at the top of that page and just below the

21     question, there's some typed text there.  And as I read it, it says:

22     "Uncertainty, fear, helplessness."  Mr. Batinic, those are not your

23     notes, are they?

24        A.   These are my note, Your Honours.  May I explain?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I think -- let's try to see exactly what we are

Page 22680

 1     talking about.

 2             What we are looking at at this moment specifically, Witness, is

 3     what you see on your screen to be type written on the first line of this

 4     page.  There are three words.  I don't know how to pronounce them but

 5     "Neizvesnost," "Strah," "Bespomocaost"; these words.  Are these your

 6     notes?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything that is typewritten are

 8     Mr. Lukic's questions.  And the handwritten notes were my notes that I

 9     made in the hotel as a reminder.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Statement 65 ter 30798 uploaded by the Prosecution,

12     paragraph 5.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.  What's -- let me just -- one second.

14     One second, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  This is from his statement.  It's not my notes.  You

16     can see paragraph 5 --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, first of all there were overlapping speakers

18     so, therefore, we have not --

19             The witness has answered the question saying that everything

20     that's handwritten are his notes --

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and that everything which is type written is what

23     was provided to him as he told us by you, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, yes.  Those are his words.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]

Page 22681

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Those notes made by me were his words and we can find

 2     it at paragraph 5 of his statement.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, his statement is not in evidence so the

 4     Chamber doesn't know that.  You can, of course, in re-examination --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Okay, but --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you can deal with the matter.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I just want to draw your attention, Your Honours,

 8     that these are his words not mine.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if they are in his statement, well --

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- we know something about how this statement --

12     this was -- and that's the issue, and you should have refrained -- stayed

13     out of it.  The simple question was whether these were notes provided to

14     him irrespective of whether at an earlier stage he may have used this and

15     that's a different matter.  That's argumentive.  It has got nothing to do

16     with the question.  Therefore, please explore the matter any further in

17     re-examination if you wish to do so.

18             And Ms. Hasan may now proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

20             MS. HASAN:

21        Q.   So, Witness, what you told the Chamber yesterday that these were

22     only questions wasn't true, was it?

23        A.   Let me answer in the following way.  Now I have a clear picture.

24     These are words from my statement that Mr. Lukic typed up and I took that

25     to the hotel, and then I added my notes just as a reminder for myself so

Page 22682

 1     that I wouldn't is skip anything.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, what now happens may - I'm saying may -

 3     well demonstrate why you should have stayed out of -- you should have not

 4     have intervened in the cross-examination.  Let that be clear to you and

 5     remind that very well if you intervene again.

 6             Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.

 7             MS. HASAN:  At this stage I'd offer 65 ter 30803 into evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?  Not.

 9             Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30803 receives number P6593,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

13             Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.

14             MS. HASAN:

15        Q.   Mr. Batinic, you're not a ballistics expert, are you?

16        A.   Of course, I'm not a ballistics expert.

17        Q.   You have no expertise in crater analysis?

18        A.   No expertise but I have personal experience.

19        Q.   Have you undergone any training as respect to mortars and their

20     impacts?

21        A.   I don't have any experience with mortars, but I had experience

22     with mortar shells that fell all around me.

23        Q.   Okay.  Have you ever fired a mortar yourself?

24        A.   No, never.

25        Q.   And you mentioned, sir, that you were a history teacher.  Can you

Page 22683

 1     tell us what level you taught?

 2        A.   I'm a history teacher, which means I'm qualified to teach

 3     secondary school.  In 1986 and 1987, I also worked in an elementary

 4     school.  And then I landed a job at the Vrace memorial park from the

 5     Second World War where I worked as a curator.  And there were also three

 6     other museums around Sarajevo which I also dealt with and was in charge

 7     of.

 8        Q.   And your employment as an elementary school teacher up until the

 9     start of the war, all your employment was in the Igman area; is that

10     correct?

11        A.   No.  I worked in Hadzici at that time, a small place near mount

12     of Igman.  And during the war I saw my students, my former students in

13     positions on Mount Igman.  They were already grown up men by then.

14        Q.   And before the war you also lived in the Igman area; is that

15     correct?

16        A.   I lived at the Mostar junction.  I have a house there.  It is

17     7 kilometres away from Mount Igman, and from my house there's a very good

18     view of Mount Igman.

19        Q.   And this is where you lived also during the war.  Is this in the

20     Kovacevic area?

21        A.   Yes.  When I got married in 1985, I stayed living there with my

22     wife; whereas, my parents lived in Sarajevo.

23        Q.   Now, in June of 1992 when you were mobilised, what brigade were

24     you mobilised into?

25        A.   We were attached to the Igman Brigade.  But if we're talking

Page 22684

 1     about mobilisation, I didn't even see the Igman Brigade at the time.

 2     People came to the village who were members of the Igman Brigade.  They

 3     mobilised us and they sent us to positions.  Before that I was a -- a

 4     member of the village guard.

 5        Q.   And in June of 1992 when this happened, was the brigade known by

 6     any other name?

 7        A.   And what are we talking about?  What happened in 1992?  Can you

 8     be more specific, please?

 9        Q.   Well, when you were mobilised and you said you were attached to

10     the Igman Brigade, was it actually the Igman Brigade at that time?  Was

11     it not the Blazuj Brigade?

12        A.   I can't answer that question.  When we were mobilised, we were

13     taken to the position in Zenik which is some 10 kilometres away from

14     Blazuj.

15        Q.   Okay, sir, but I'm simply asking you which brigade you were

16     attached to.  Is your answer that you don't know?

17        A.   Madam Prosecutor, at that time I didn't have any personal

18     contacts with the Igman Brigades or the Blazuj Brigade, as you call it.

19     Perhaps it was renamed later but I wouldn't know that.  My first contact

20     with the Igman Brigade was on the 29th of June.  That's when I went there

21     in order to repair my jammed machine-gun.

22        Q.   Okay, sir.  And who was the commander of the brigade that you

23     were attached to?

24        A.   When I was their interpreter, the commander was

25     Captain Blagota Kovacevic.

Page 22685

 1        Q.   Sir, I'm going to put it to you that it's actually

 2     Blagoje Kovacevic.

 3        A.   I won't agree with you.  Perhaps that's what you can find in

 4     documents.  However, I was in -- his interpreter for three months and he

 5     always introduced himself as Blagota, and he always said that in the

 6     documents his name is Blagoje.  For example, in my ID my date of birth is

 7     the 13th of February, although my mother told me that I was born on the

 8     12th of February.  His name is Blagota.  He is currently retired --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you consider this to be two different persons or

10     two different ways of spelling or writing his first name?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's one and the same person,

12     Your Honours.  Blagota and Blagoje is one and the same person.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then the issue seems to be rather futile.

14             Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.

15             MS. HASAN:

16        Q.   And what was his rank?

17        A.   Captain.  Captain first class.

18        Q.   Now, yesterday we -- you gave some testimony about the bread line

19     massacre incident, and this was on the Vasin Miskina Street.  So I'd like

20     to ask you just if you can tell us, the Vasin Miskina Street, it's in the

21     far east of Sarajevo; is that correct?

22        A.   First of all, I said that it was a massacre.  Second of all,

23     Vase Miskina Street is in the very centre of Sarajevo, in the old part of

24     the Austro-Hungarian city of Sarajevo, very close to the eternal fire.

25     The main street is Marsala Tito Street and Vase Miskina was a street off

Page 22686

 1     it.  Today its name is Ferhadija.

 2        Q.   I don't think we disagree that it's in the old town of Sarajevo.

 3     Now where did this meeting, that you say took place in 1993, where did

 4     that take place?

 5        A.   In 1993, the commander was Colonel Spasoje Cojic.

 6        Q.   Witness, I asked you where the meeting took place in 1993 that

 7     you attended about this incident.

 8        A.   That meeting was held in the -- the office of the brigade

 9     commander of the Igman Brigade.

10        Q.   And isn't Igman about -- over 15 kilometres or so from the

11     Vase Miskina Street?

12        A.   Precisely.  I know that my house is 15 kilometres away.  There's

13     another kilometre to Blazuj.  So it's up to 17 kilometres at the most.

14        Q.   And this incident that took place in fact then was nowhere near

15     the zone of responsibility of the Igman Brigade?

16        A.   That incident had nothing to do with the Igman Brigade, and it

17     was not close to it.  The point is that the commander who was an

18     artillery man explained to the military observers as to what had

19     happened, and I was there as an interpreter who interpreted for him.

20        Q.   Now, sir, you were not yourself involved in the investigation of

21     this incident, were you?

22        A.   Of course not.  I was just an interpreter.

23        Q.   And you never saw the pathologist report that the commander was

24     basing his conclusions on, did you?

25        A.   Of course I didn't see that report.  The commander never showed

Page 22687

 1     it to me.  May I be allowed to add something, please?

 2             I read General McKenzie's book about the incident --

 3        Q.   Sir --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  There's no need to say anything about what

 5     General McKenzie may have written.

 6             Next question please, Ms. Hasan.

 7             MS. HASAN:

 8        Q.   And I take it then that did you not see this pathologist report

 9     after the meeting?  Until this day, you haven't seen it?

10        A.   Of course I have not seen it.  Why would I need to look at the

11     pathologist's report?  There's no need for that.

12        Q.   So really, Mr. Batinic, all you're telling us basically that the

13     extent of your knowledge is simply what Commander Cojic told you in 1993,

14     one year after this incident took place, about what he personally thought

15     caused the casualties on the Vase Miskina Street?

16        A.   The commander told them, the military observers.  And I was just

17     an interpreter who interpreted for him when he spoke about the incident.

18        Q.   So if I ask you, sir, whether you give any credence to what

19     Commander Cojic said to those foreign observers that day, do you?  Do you

20     give credence to what he said?  That this was a staged event caused by

21     claymore mines?

22        A.   May I be allowed to explain the situation in some detail?  I was

23     intrigued by the event --

24        Q.   Sir --

25        A.   -- and there are some things --

Page 22688

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Witness --

 2             THE WITNESS:  -- that I wanted to check in 1995 --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  What you were asked, and you're invited to

 4     answer the question, is whether you give any credence to what

 5     Commander Cojic said; namely, that it was a staged event.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are some elements that I

 7     fully believed and gave credence to, which is why I thought that the

 8     commander was right.  May I be allowed to explain now?

 9             MS. HASAN:

10        Q.   No, sir, I'm just going to go on with my questions.

11             MS. HASAN:  If we could take a look at 65 ter 30781, please.

12        Q.   Now, as you can see here, sir, this is photo documentation that

13     formed part of the police investigation file into this incident on the

14     Vase Miskina Street on the 27th of May, 1992.

15             MS. HASAN:  Now, if we can turn to page 2 of the B/C/S, please.

16     That's just the cover page of the photo file.  And now can we turn to

17     page 6.  Now these are just photographs.  We can just look at the B/C/S

18     document.  And if I -- yes.

19        Q.   Now, Witness, the Chamber has already heard evidence about

20     patterns that are created or left by mortars and artillery.  They've

21     heard about this in this case.  Now, Cojic said that these casualties

22     resulted from claymore mines that were planted in basements, so what I'd

23     like you to do is please explain for us is how claymore mines create

24     patterns like this?

25        A.   I'm not a ballistics expert so I can't explain the traces.

Page 22689

 1     However, with your leave I could explain or tell you about what Cojic

 2     said.  We went to the spot with SAS and the British service and we

 3     examined the place.  This is a police report and I can't comment on, but

 4     I can comment upon what I heard and what I saw with other people who are

 5     much better versed in such matters.  They were members of the special

 6     British forces, SAS.

 7        Q.   Well, Witness, what you heard others say or what others think

 8     about this is not what I'm interested in at the moment.  I just simply

 9     want to know whether you have an explanation as to -- because you said

10     you give some credence to what Commander Cojic said, whether you can

11     explain this to us and evidently you cannot.  What I'd --

12        A.   Thank you.  Yes, I can.  This is precisely what I wanted to tell

13     you some ten minutes ago.  If I may be allowed to explain, I will gladly

14     do so.

15        Q.   Do you have an explanation for how claymore mines create craters

16     like this?

17             MR. LUKIC:  Asked and answered.  Objection.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness has no explanation from what I

19     understand.

20             Ms. Hasan.

21             MS. HASAN:  I simply asked the question because the witness on

22     line 3 says:  "This is precisely what I wanted to tell you some ten

23     minutes ago," but I --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, yes --

25             MS. HASAN:  -- appreciate he can -- he said before that he can't

Page 22690

 1     answer.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  What you wanted to explain is not about what you see

 3     on the screen at this moment is it, Mr. Batinic?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honours.  Thank you

 5     very much.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.

 7             MS. HASAN:  I'd offer 65 ter 30781 into evidence.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  If this is accepted, we'll have to employ our expert

 9     witnesses to explain this incident as well, and we will gladly do that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan.

11             MS. HASAN:  The Defence can choose to call whoever they want.

12     I -- I don't comment on that.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Because incident is not in our indictment.  But if

14     it's accepted as an exhibit, we'll have to deal with it.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but if it's not in the indictment why did you

16     then deal with it in examination-in-chief?

17             MR. LUKIC:  The witness told us.  What he told us, we reported.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you -- whatever a witness says, relevant,

19     irrelevant, you just record it and say put it here and then blame the

20     Prosecution for taking proper notice of it and paying attention to it, or

21     is it --

22             MR. LUKIC:  If we are allowed to elaborate on this incident --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

24             MR. LUKIC:  -- we do not have objection for this --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

Page 22691

 1             MR. LUKIC:  -- document to enter into evidence.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  As a matter of fact what happened, Mr. Lukic,

 3     is that you bring a witness who has no personal knowledge whatsoever

 4     about an event but whatever he heard someone else say, matters which

 5     require expertise, I would agree with you, that you put that before the

 6     Chamber highly suggesting that there is some truth in the explanation

 7     given by what this witness heard.  And then don't be surprised if the

 8     Prosecution then responds to that by saying, "But there is a report about

 9     it."

10             You haven't provided, as far as I can see, any supporting

11     documentary material.  You just bring in what this witness heard,

12     apparently not concerned about what the basis of his knowledge is.  If

13     you would say the only reason why we presented this evidence is because

14     we want to tell the Chamber what this witness heard someone else to say,

15     then I would say book your agenda until 2020, because then we'll not yet

16     ready with this case.

17             I think you're blaming the Prosecution for something you

18     triggered yourself, and we'll consider whether or not we'll give it some

19     more thought.  If you want to further make submissions on your objections

20     to admission, please do so at this moment.  If it was what you said, then

21     we'll give Ms. Hasan an opportunity to respond and finally we'll decide.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, do you want to add anything to your

24     objections?

25             MR. LUKIC:  No, Your Honour.  I just said that we will then have

Page 22692

 1     to deal with the incident as -- in the whole with [Overlapping speakers]

 2     witnesses.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             Ms. Hasan, well, you respond already that the Defence can proceed

 5     as it deems fit.  Is that your response?

 6             MS. HASAN:  That's -- that's correct, Your Honour has understood.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I already said then we do not have any objections.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We will -- it will be marked for identification.

 9     The Chamber will consider --

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan.

12                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You were on your feet.  Was that to put your next

14     question to the witness?

15             MS. HASAN:  No, Mr. President.  I just wanted to address the

16     admission of this -- of this document.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             MS. HASAN:  As you've already stated, it -- you know, this was

19     raised by the Defence in their 65 ter notice.  It even says -- it goes

20     further and says the witness will testify about an incident at the bread

21     queue in Sarajevo that had been blamed on the Serbs but was actually the

22     result of claymore mines planted by the ABiH.  So we can only go off what

23     the Defence is telling us, is putting us on notice of, so this goes

24     directly to the credibility of this witness who is giving the Chamber

25     evidence about an incident that took place.  If the -- if the Defence

Page 22693

 1     wants to withdraw this part of the witness's evidence on this incident,

 2     then I can withdraw the admission -- our offer to admit this into

 3     evidence.  But if they maintain that evidence, then this certainly should

 4     go in as it contradicts --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So it is clear that you tendered this document not

 6     for the purposes of establishing how the incident happened but

 7     exclusively to -- for testing the credibility and the reliability of this

 8     witness.

 9             MS. HASAN:  Both, Your Honour.  For both purposes.  The -- the --

10     the evidence about this -- this is the not the first time that this

11     incident comes in this trial.  In fact, the ballistics report is already

12     in evidence in this case.  So this certainly adds to that.  And I think

13     it goes in for both purposes, the credibility and for its contents, for

14     what it is.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             Mr. Lukic, anything to add.

17             MR. LUKIC:  I think that it's good for us to sit after the trial,

18     me and Ms. Hasan, to discuss this.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I would say after this hearing.  Yes.  After

20     the trial might be a bit late.

21             MR. LUKIC:  After the hearing.  Sorry.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No, that's understood.  If you would sit together,

23     the document will be marked for identification for the time being.

24             And Madam Registrar, it would receive number?

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30781 receives number P6594,

Page 22694

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  P6594 is marked for identification.

 3             We are at a time for a break, Ms. Hasan.

 4             Mr. Batinic, we take a break of 20 minutes.  We'd like to see you

 5     back after the break.  You may follow the usher.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I just ask

 7     Ms. Hasan or Mrs. Hasan?  Could I please be present during that coffee

 8     with Mr. Lukic.  I would be pleased for all of us to meet up.  So I would

 9     like to be present, simply to be there with --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Batinic, both parties are not allowed to even

11     have contact with the witness once he has taken the stand, but I hope

12     you'll enjoy, nevertheless, your coffee on your own.

13             You may follow the usher.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break and resume at ten minutes

17     to 11.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, Mr. Lukic, I'm also specifically

21     asking your attention.  When the witness was about to leave the

22     courtroom, both Judge Moloto and I even could hear Mr. Mladic say

23     something aloud, including the name of counsel for the Prosecution.

24     That's totally inappropriate.  No communication with whomever in this

25     courtroom, especially not if the name of a counsel of the Prosecution is

Page 22695

 1     part of that.

 2             Therefore, if this kind of things happens again, and it happened

 3     a couple of times over the last week, this is the last warning.  And

 4     especially if it is not just to say something but including a name of

 5     someone who plays a role in this proceedings, and if the Chamber can't

 6     hear that, apart from hearing that name, then we'll take action.  Let

 7     that be clear for Mr. Mladic.

 8             We now continue.  Could the witness be escorted into the

 9     courtroom.

10             At the same time, there was a problem with the B/C/S -- with the

11     translation of P6593.

12             Madam Registrar, do I understand that a new translation has been

13     uploaded?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, there was a problem with both

15     English and B/C/S version --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  -- with the order of the pages, so new version of

18     both B/C/S and English --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Of both.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  -- is uploaded with a new number.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And that, I understand, has been uploaded under

22     65 ter number 30803a.  Therefore, you are hereby instructed to replace

23     the document which is now known under P6593 by the one I just mentioned.

24             Ms. Hasan, you're on your feet.  Anything before the witness

25     comes in or?

Page 22696

 1             MS. HASAN:  No, Mr. President.  I was just waiting for the

 2     witness.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I inquire with the parties whether the

 4     document that was provided by the witness and given to you, a copy this

 5     morning, that -- can the original be returned to the witness?

 6             MS. HASAN:  Yes, Mr.  President.  We received a copy of that.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             Mr. Lukic, also no reason to keep the original?

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Batinic, Ms. Hasan will now continue her

11     cross-examination.

12             Please proceed.

13             MS. HASAN:

14        Q.   Mr. Batinic, you've told us that you spent quite a bit of time

15     with the UNMOs.  And am I correct that you were interpreting for them

16     throughout 1993?

17        A.   Yes, that's correct.  A lot of time.  Actually, from the end of

18     June 1992 I interpreted for the UNMOs on the Serb side, and later on I

19     was interpreting for the other parties in the conflict, other commanders;

20     for example, in Gorazde at that time Buljubasic was -- on the Muslim side

21     was commander there.

22        Q.   Turning your mind to July 1993, do you recall interpreting for

23     Lieutenant-Colonel John Hamill?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 22697

 1        A.   We became great friends.

 2        Q.   Now, on the 20th of July, 1993, you were accompanying him to

 3     Poljine to pay someone for damages that had been caused to their vehicle

 4     in November of 1992.  Now, I'm not interested in that specific trip but I

 5     just want to ask you if you recall being with Mr. John Hamill on that

 6     day?

 7        A.   Yes, I remember that full well.  It doesn't have to do damage on

 8     his vehicle.  It has to do with damage to a vehicle of a civilian who

 9     lived up there in Poljine, Mrkovici, I think, and Chris Hansen [phoen], a

10     Norwegian captain, was with us too.

11        Q.   Now you were still with -- together with the UNMOs in the

12     following days, were you not?

13        A.   Well, all the time.  Until the Dayton Accords were signed in

14     1995, I was with UN Observers.

15        Q.   So, in that case you surely period about the bombardment of

16     Sarajevo by the Serbs that took place over the next two days?

17        A.   As far as I can remember that was discussed quite a bit, and

18     John Hamill talked about it as well.  There was quite a bit of shelling.

19     I don't know exactly what this was all about.

20        Q.   Well, sir, let's -- let's look at what

21     Lieutenant-Colonel John Hamill said about that.  And this was just two

22     days after your trip with him.

23             MS. HASAN:  So if I can call up Exhibit P00537.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan, it's common practice that first questions

25     are put to the witness before any statement or anything else is put to

Page 22698

 1     him.  Now, I do not know what your questions will be, but could you

 2     please keep that in the back of your mind.

 3             MS. HASAN:  My -- my question leading up to this was whether he

 4     heard about it, and his answer was he heard -- he heard about quite

 5     some -- that there was some shelling.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And ... if -- if that -- if there are any

 7     details in what Hamill would have said you could elicit from the witness

 8     first without showing him the testimony of Mr. Hamill, then I think that

 9     would be preferable.  And if there's any contradiction, then of course

10     you could still put to the witness what Mr. Hamill said.

11             MS. HASAN:  Okay.

12        Q.   So, Witness, you -- you said there quite a bit of shelling

13     happening and can you tell me what you mean by "quite a bit of shelling"?

14     What did you hear?

15        A.   I don't know which event you're referring to, which day?  I mean,

16     all these things that were happening.  But as far as shelling is

17     concerned from any side, military observers were divided into two

18     sections.  They communicated on Motorolas.  One side was called Papa and

19     one side was called Lima.  The Lima side was the Serb side and --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you were not asked all this.  You --

21     Ms. Hasan introduced a matter as the two days following your trip with

22     Mr. Hamill about some damages.  And she asked when you said there was

23     quite a bit of shelling to further explain that.  Not to explain the

24     monitoring system but what you experienced in terms of shelling those two

25     days.

Page 22699

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Honourable Prosecutor,

 2     the shelling itself I don't know what it has to do with.  There was

 3     practically shelling every day.  Could you please be specific in your

 4     question?

 5             MS. HASAN:

 6        Q.   Okay.  So do you recall that in the day and -- or two after the

 7     20th of July, so the 21st and 22nd of July, that there was one of the

 8     heaviest days of bombardment of the city of Sarajevo by the Bosnian Serbs

 9     when 3.600 rounds fell into the city?  Do you recall that?

10        A.   I recall the shelling of the city, but the date, when, what was

11     shelled, and when I was exactly with John Hamill, I was with him many

12     times, so I don't know what this pertains to specifically.

13        Q.   So let's just be clear.  Do you remember that there was 3.600

14     shells falling on the city of Sarajevo, a huge bombardment of the city,

15     in and around that time?  Does that stand out in your mind.

16        A.   I cannot recall that.  I know that there was shelling of the

17     city, but we were on the Serb side.  How can I now speak about the

18     shelling of the city when our only communication with the other side is

19     with the observers on the other side via Motorola?

20        Q.   Well, let's take a look at what the -- the UNMOs that, you know,

21     you were working with wrote about this.

22             MS. HASAN:  If we could see Exhibit P00540, please.  And this is

23     a report on the events between 21 July and 22 July 1993.

24        Q.   And, sir, if you look at -- I guess you can take your pick, the

25     English or the B/C/S, it says under item 1A:

Page 22700

 1             "The situation has changed absolutely since yesterday (midnight).

 2     Sarajevo has been heavily shelled: Into the down-town were recorded 680

 3     impacts, and UNMOs observed a total of 3.777 outgoing rounds from the

 4     Serbian weapons positions."

 5             And it goes on to say, and this goes over on the B/C/S page too,

 6     that seven people were killed and 49 were wounded as a result.

 7             Witness, did you hear the UNMOs talking about this?  Did you hear

 8     about this heavy shelling?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we have the English on the screen, please.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think we were on the --

11             MS. HASAN:  It seems we've lost the English.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- we were on the first page of the English version

13     where the seven deaths were mentioned.  Yes, there we are.

14             MS. HASAN:

15        Q.   I just want to know.  You were there.  You were with these UNMOs.

16     You were -- you've told us about the -- the attacks on the Serbs in

17     Sarajevo, and you've told us about that at length.  So I'm asking you

18     about whether this bombardment, whether you heard about this, whether you

19     experienced this?  Because you were with them.

20        A.   As for the shelling itself in this document, I have no doubt, as

21     far as this document is concerned, and I have no right to doubt it.  It

22     is a document of the military observers.  I just want to simplify the

23     situation.  The military observers were in two zones, the Papa zone and

24     the Lima zone, and that is very important in this case.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  This report is about outgoing shells, large numbers.

Page 22701

 1     So you don't have to explain that.  You said it was discussed quite a

 2     bit.  What was discussed?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only thing I can say to

 4     Your Honour is that via Motorola the reports of the other side could be

 5     heard, about the shells being fired.  But how many there were, I really

 6     cannot say.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently you being able to hear conversations on

 8     the Motorolas, with Motorolas, did you experience that there was heavy,

 9     heavy, heavy shelling?  I mean, it's described that the situation changed

10     entirely; that is, that the shelling was far more intense than usual.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that.  I could only

12     follow this with John --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You believe that.  What do you mean by

14     "believe"?  I'm asking you whether you observed that the shelling was far

15     more intense than usual?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that there was fighting.  I

17     know that there was a battle going on.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not asking you for an explanation why there may

19     have been more shelling.  I'm asking you whether you observed the

20     shelling to be more intense than usual on that day or the two days

21     following the 20th of July.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.  There was more shelling,

23     and the reports were sent via Motorola all the time, and John was

24     receiving them.  Yes, that is correct.  There was heavy shelling.  But

25     let me say that I cannot say exactly how many shells there were and it's

Page 22702

 1     not my job.  That's what the military observers know.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No one asked you.  It was put to you that 3.600 or

 3     perhaps even 3.700 shells fell.  And where you say there was shelling

 4     every day, if this was more intense, then a reference to shelling that

 5     took place every day where it was far more intense these days is evasive,

 6     is not the whole truth.  Would you please keep that in mind.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was more intensive

 8     shelling.  Yes, that's correct.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then a reference to shelling was there every

10     day is really evasive.

11             Ms. Hasan, next question, please.

12             MS. HASAN:

13        Q.   So, Witness, that was in July of 1993.  Let's go to June, one

14     month before that; June of 1993, okay?  So there's evidence in this case

15     that there was shells falling into the city of Sarajevo at a rate of

16     about 1.000 shells per day.  Did you hear any reports of that?

17        A.   I don't remember any report, especially not written ones, and I

18     did not have any front of me.  How can I know about the written reports

19     of military observers?  I was a field interpreter.  I did not translate

20     any reports.

21        Q.   Okay.  So --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was whether you heard any reports that

23     day.  The question was not whether you translated written reports but

24     whether you heard any reports of a thousand shells a day.  That was the

25     question.  Did you or did you not?

Page 22703

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not hear that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.

 3             MS. HASAN:

 4        Q.   Okay.  And I'm going ask you, then, about the conditions in

 5     Sarajevo around that time.  Let's talk about July, June/July of 1993.

 6     There were days when the city was -- many days when the city was without

 7     electricity.  Did you hear about that?

 8        A.   Yes, I heard about that.

 9        Q.   Did you hear about citizens having to go to wells to get their

10     water supplies and that there was a huge demand for water that was not

11     available.  Did you hear about that?

12        A.   Well, I saw that on television.  Yes, I heard about that too.

13        Q.   And what about the targeting of UN observation posts?  The UNMOs

14     reported about UN observation posts being attacked by the Serbs.  Did you

15     hear about those attacks?

16        A.   Could you explain that word that you used, that "post" of the UN

17     observers.

18        Q.   These were observation posts.  Did you hear about the targeting

19     of, for example, OP-Papa 5 and OP-Papa 4 in 1993, early 1993?  Did you

20     hear about the Bosnian Serbs attacking those observation posts?

21        A.   Yes, I heard about the shelling of observation posts.  Again, we

22     heard the other side.  They were leaving these posts panic-stricken.

23     Papa 4, Papa 5, I'm not sure.

24        Q.   Sir, I'm just going to move onto another topic.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just -- you said:  "Again, we heard the

Page 22704

 1     other side."  What did you mean exactly by that?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I tried to explain

 3     that.  There are two observation missions at the headquarters in

 4     Sarajevo.  One is on the Serb side and the other is on the Muslim side.

 5     Papa is on the Bosnian side, Lima is the one that's on the Serb side.

 6     That is to say --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The other --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  -- they are the ones that we -- or

 9     rather they communicated via Motorola.  They communicated.  And that is

10     how we hear these reports.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's -- that's clear, because your answer

12     was -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  That's

14     what I wanted to explain at the very outset so that there wouldn't be any

15     misunderstanding.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan, please proceed.

17             MS. HASAN:

18        Q.   Okay.  Witness, if we can take a look at 65 ter 30792.  Now,

19     you've told us you did hear about the attacks on the -- the observation

20     posts.  This is a -- what you'll see is an UNPROFOR sitrep.

21             Now, under the general situation under item 1, it talks about

22     these attacks and it reports on the targeting of OPs and then it goes on

23     to say -- sorry.  It says:

24             "Papa 4 and 5 were targeted today with some harassing rounds

25     falling within 50 metres of the positions.  However, it was neither

Page 22705

 1     prolonged nor intense.  In view of the frequent shelling" --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Please slow down when

 3     reading, thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan, you heard the admonishment to slow down.

 5             MS. HASAN:  I apologise.

 6        Q.   "In view of the frequent shelling of the Papa OPs, I will ask for

 7     a meeting with the commander in Lukavica to hopefully put a stop to these

 8     occurrences."

 9             Now, it goes on to say:

10             "Lima side UNMOs were called to the Blazuj hospital to witness

11     that two of the oxygen bottles delivered by the UNHCR were found to

12     contain gunpowder.  Once confirmed, this matter was turned over to

13     CIVPOL."

14             Witness, is this the incident you talked about yesterday at the

15     Blazuj hospital?

16        A.   I confirm that this is the same incident.  I mentioned only two

17     bottles, but as far as I remember there were ten of them.

18        Q.   Now, Witness, despite your certainty which you testified about

19     yesterday at transcript page 22625, your certainty that this happened in

20     1992, October or November, we see here that this report is dated the 24th

21     of January, 1993.  Do you dispute the accuracy of this report in the --

22             MR. LUKIC:  If I may object at this moment.

23             This evidence is in contradiction with the evidence we saw on

24     that video.  Here, it's noted that two bottles actually were filled with

25     gunpowder.  There, we saw one bottle with gunpowder and the other bottle

Page 22706

 1     with --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  -- mortar fuses.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So -- well, it's not an objection, I think, to

 5     the question.  It's a matter to be further explored, which you could do,

 6     Mr. Lukic --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  No, that's --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I fully agree with you, in re-examination.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  The evidence wrongly presented to the witness.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The evidence yesterday was about two bottles

11     of oxygen.  To that extent you're right, Mr. Lukic.  One filled with

12     gunpowder and the other one with mortar fuses.

13             Ms. Hasan, that was the evidence of yesterday.

14             MS. HASAN:

15        Q.   Okay.  Witness, do you -- I'll move onto another document that

16     will help with this issue.

17             MS. HASAN:  Can we turn to 65 ter 30794.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Batinic, you earlier said there were ten

19     bottles.  Now the evidence of yesterday says there were two bottles,

20     found, oxygen bottles, with -- one with gunpowder, the other one with

21     mortar fuses, out of five.  So I don't know where the ten now comes from.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we just did not

25     receive interpretation for a while.  Everything that you said just now

Page 22707

 1     had not been interpreted.  So that's it.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We --

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's exactly what

 4     General Mladic said now.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Can we check whether Mr. Mladic now receives

 6     interpretation.  At least I receive interpretation on channel 6.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now it can be heard, yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then I'll resume.  I said:

 9             "Mr. Batinic, you earlier said that there were ten bottles.  Now

10     the evidence of yesterday says there were two bottles found, oxygen

11     bottles, one with gunpowder, the other one with mortar fuses, out of

12     five, so I don't know where the ten now comes from."

13             And that was my question to Mr. Batinic.

14             You said there were ten.  Yesterday we heard about five.  Out of

15     those five, two were filled with contraband.  Could you tell us where the

16     ten come from?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I still claim it's ten

18     bottles.  Because I and the military observers entered the storage room

19     of the hospital and that's where we opened the first bottle.  And I said

20     that the gunpowder became an emulsion when contacting water.  After that,

21     French UNPROFOR people came with an interpreter, as far as I can see, and

22     also local TV --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]...

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and then in front of them

25     bottles were opened, as we saw yesterday, and --

Page 22708

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then we saw on television that out of five

 2     two were containing -- it's still not explained yet where the ten comes

 3     from.  I know now a lot of other things but my question has not been

 4     truly answered.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see ten bottles in

 6     the storage with my own two eyes when I arrived there with the observers.

 7     There were ten bottles in the storage.  Later on, people came and opened

 8     the other bottles in front of a TV crew.  I'm talking about the hospital

 9     storage or storeroom.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the other bottles, other than the two that we

11     saw being opened?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those other bottles remained in the

13     hospital store room.  That's a fact.  They were not taken out.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But whether they contained any contraband or

15     whether they were just as the other three out of the five were just

16     filled with oxygen, do you have any information about that?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to Dr. Pejic who was the

18     chief administer, there were ten bottles.  Some had already been opened.

19     An employee even tried to heat one of the bottles.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you again.  You say there were ten

21     bottles.  Were there ten bottles found to be filled with contraband;

22     gunpowder, whatever?  Anything else than oxygen?  Or was it just the two

23     that were found to be filled with contraband?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I only know that in

25     this case shall we're talking about three bottles.

Page 22709

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, if -- yes.  I take it that a hospital will

 2     have more oxygen bottles.  That's -- so the ten is irrelevant at this

 3     moment.

 4             Ms. Hasan, you may proceed.

 5             MS. HASAN:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   This is a sitrep for the 26th of January, 1993.  Okay?  Now, if

 7     we turn to the English, page 2, in the B/C/S page 3, we have a report

 8     here on some oxygen cylinders that the UNMOs were called in to have a

 9     look at, and they write here in their report first full paragraph:

10             "During inquiry, it came to light that the Serbian claimed to

11     have stolen five oxygen cylinder from the UNHCR truck two months ago."

12             Now it goes onto describe that:

13             "After using three cylinder, they got near about 160 fuse for

14     mortar shells from one of those cylinders and a huge quantity of

15     gunpowder from the other cylinder.  All the fuses were separately wrapped

16     in an old invoice copies from a company in Visoko.  The invoice were all

17     dated 1986.  The Serbian press were present and filmed the proceeding.

18     After visit to that hospital (Blazuj) we went straight to Kosevo Hospital

19     to verify the number of oxygen cylinder in their stock.  But nothing

20     unusual was noticed."

21             Now, Witness, it certainly contradicts -- is not consistent with

22     some of the evidence you've given today and yesterday about this event.

23     Is this, in fact, did you learn the same thing that the UNMOs report

24     here?

25        A.   I don't know nor did I know what the UN observers' report

Page 22710

 1     contained.  As far as my statement is concerned, I was not precise.  I

 2     didn't say the exact time.  It was in 1992, the beginning of January.  It

 3     was rather warm.  I was in a light blue jacket.  That's why I assumed it

 4     was the end of January.  But there's no doubt that we're talking about

 5     the same people, the same containers.  The footage shows that.  What

 6     happened at the check-point where those bottles had been confiscated, I

 7     really don't know.  I can't say.

 8             MS. HASAN:  Your Honours, I'd offer 65 ter 30794 as well as

 9     65 ter 30792 into evidence, the two sitreps.

10             THE COURT REPORTER:  Can you say that number again, please.

11             MS. HASAN:  Yes, 65 ter 30792.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30792 receives number P6595.  And

14     document 30794 receives number P6596, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  P6595 and P6596 are admitted.

16             MS. HASAN:

17        Q.   Witness, yesterday you testified about Mr. Guzina in relation to

18     the hostages.  Did you see Mr. Svetozar Guzina here in The Hague before

19     you testified?

20        A.   Yes, I saw Mr. Guzina.  He is my friend.  We had a drink

21     together, of course.

22        Q.   Did you discuss any of the evidence he was to give or you were to

23     give?

24        A.   We did not discuss his evidence at all.  I know I don't have the

25     right to do that.

Page 22711

 1        Q.   Okay.  Let me be a bit more precise.  Did you discuss with

 2     Mr. Guzina his involvement with these hostages?

 3        A.   We did not discuss hostages or that crisis.  We discussed many

 4     other things, Mr. Guzina and I.  We hadn't seen each other perhaps for a

 5     whole year.

 6        Q.   So this evidence about Guzina's involvement with the hostages,

 7     did you tell the Defence about that before you testified?

 8        A.   No.  I didn't say anything to the Defence about Mr. Guzina's

 9     evidence.

10        Q.   All right.  Now, the UNMOs that were -- that were held and that

11     you were with in 1995, they were held in Blazuj; am I correct?

12        A.   Correct.  And to be more precise, it was 1 kilometre west of

13     Blazuj at the Mostar junction.

14        Q.   Now, who kept them there?  Who held them there?  Was it the

15     Igman Brigade or the Ilidza Brigade?

16        A.   The Igman Brigade.

17        Q.   Now, I'm going to move onto your testimony about the Markale

18     market massacre, and that was February 5th, 1994.

19                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

20             MS. HASAN:

21        Q.   Witness, sorry, I'm just going to have to go back because the

22     record records you as having asked a question.  This is at, if you look

23     at your screen, page 42, line 7.  I asked you who kept them there, was it

24     the Igman Brigade or the Ilidza Brigade, and it appears you answered:

25     "The Igman brigade?"  Was that a question or were you making --

Page 22712

 1     affirmatively answering that it was the Igman Brigade who was keeping

 2     them there?

 3        A.   You asked me and I answered.  The Igman Brigade.  Commander Cojic

 4     kept them there.

 5        Q.   So moving onto the Markale market massacre.  Now, you weren't

 6     involved in any of the investigations whatsoever into this incident, were

 7     you?

 8        A.   No, never.  It wasn't my right to do that.

 9        Q.   And you haven't read any of the investigative reports on the

10     incident?

11        A.   Correct.  I didn't read any of the reports, but I heard two

12     different versions of the reports from two different sides.

13        Q.   Now, at the time of the meeting, would you say that foreign

14     observers were viewed suspiciously by the VRS?  By 1994.

15        A.   Not only the VRS.  Everybody was suspicious of the foreign

16     military observers.

17        Q.   So Colonel Marko Lugonja, you refer to him as having been at this

18     meeting, and you referred to him generally as Galic's security guy.  Can

19     you tell us what position he held?

20        A.   When I mentioned Colonel Lugonja, he was in charge of

21     intelligence.  When we say a security guy, we mean somebody who is in

22     charge of intelligence and security, and he was the number one man in the

23     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps when it came to intelligence, security, and

24     obviously the police.

25        Q.   And so this is the Colonel Marko Lugonja who is the subordinate

Page 22713

 1     of Colonel Ljubisa Beara, Colonels Petar Salapura, and General Tolimir.

 2     Do I have that right?

 3        A.   I know he was subordinate to Ljubisa Beara and I don't know about

 4     the other two generals; i.e., whether Lugonja was subordinate to them as

 5     well.

 6        Q.   Now, you really have no opinion about what happened at Markale,

 7     which you've told us.  So all you're telling us is that the chief of

 8     intelligence and security of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps a few hours

 9     after this massacre happens meets with foreign observers, who he is

10     suspicious of, and tells them that this is a staged event, that the

11     Muslims are planting bodies there, that it's a big plot, a big conspiracy

12     involving civilians, the army, the hospital.  This is what you're telling

13     us?

14        A.   Let me tell you:  When you say that he was suspicious of

15     military observers, I say with full responsibility that we were very good

16     friends Jan [phoen] who was with me there, so we cannot generalise.  It

17     is true that Mr. Lugonja was an intelligence man.  But I claim with full

18     responsibility that the first meeting with Lugonja in front of

19     Hotel Serbia, I know as an interpreter when people lie, I am claiming

20     that Lugonja was shocked with that incident.  These are the powers that

21     I've acquired while interpreting for such a long number of years.  I know

22     exactly when somebody is lying and when somebody is telling the truth.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, then you're better off than many in this world

24     who sometimes need some time to find out whether somebody is telling the

25     truth or not.  But could you please answer the question.  The question is

Page 22714

 1     whether your evidence is limited to what you heard Lugonja say two hours

 2     after the event, and then Ms. Hasan repeated some of what you said you

 3     had heard.  That is your evidence?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can repeat what I said yesterday.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Batinic --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] However, I don't like it when words

 7     are put into my mouth or when some things are generalised.  Like, for

 8     example, when it was said that we were all suspicious of all the

 9     military observers.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you gave it a more general meeting by saying

11     not only the VRS but everyone.  So if there's anyone responsible for

12     making that a broad statement, then it's you yourself, Mr. Batinic.

13             But that was the previous question.  I asked you to answer this

14     question.  That is, whether the evidence you give to us is what you heard

15     Lugonja say about Markale.  That's it.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Nothing more, nothing less.

18             Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.

19             MS. HASAN:

20        Q.   Mr. Batinic, you testified yesterday at transcript page 22622,

21     lines 13 to 23, that you were both an interpreter for your commander and

22     for the UNMOs.  That's correct?

23        A.   You're referring to the year 1992; right?

24        Q.   Well, you can tell me.

25        A.   Yes.  Yesterday I said that the Commander Blagota Kovacevic said:

Page 22715

 1     "From now on, you will be my interpreter."  I thought I was only his

 2     interpreter, but I carried a UN card so I was confused myself.  It was

 3     only in July 1993 that I took off my uniform and I started working

 4     already on the 30th of June.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan, there may be some confusion about the

 6     page number.  Because in my system, but I noticed before that sometimes

 7     there's a slight difference, it is page 22621 where, on those lines, this

 8     information is found.

 9             Please proceed.  But it's just to avoid that others are not

10     finding it later on.

11             Please proceed.

12             MS. HASAN:

13        Q.   So, Witness, when you changed out of your uniform, once you were

14     authorised to take off your uniform, you were still a member of the

15     Igman Brigade, weren't you?

16        A.   I really don't know whether I was a member of the Igman Brigade.

17     From then on I never put on a uniform, nor did anybody tell me that I was

18     no longer a member of the Igman Brigade.  I wore civilian clothes and I

19     served as an interpreter for UN observers.

20        Q.   From whom were you receiving a salary in 1993?  In 1992, tell us

21     first.  And then in 1993.

22        A.   I received my first and last salaries from the United Nations.

23        Q.   Sorry, your first and last salaries, meaning in 1992 you received

24     a salary from the -- from the UN.  1993, you received a salary from the

25     UN.  1994?  Okay.  Did you receive any salary from the VRS?

Page 22716

 1        A.   It was some sort of salary in dinars.  I believe that the amount

 2     was some 20 German marks.  I never took it.  Actually, I gave it to my

 3     neighbour.  I did not want to have anything to do with that money, with

 4     that salary.

 5        Q.   Now, sir, you told us that you witnessed an event where Muslim

 6     soldiers --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you go to the event, can I just ask a

 8     clarification.  Did you -- you were offered these 20 dinars in that same

 9     period as you were being paid by the United Nations?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When were you offered these dinars?  Which period

12     were you offered these dinars?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the month of June 1992.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And when did you start working for the UN?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The -- the ID card was issued on

16     the 30th of June, 1992.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             You may proceed.

19             MS. HASAN:

20        Q.   Witness, when you -- when you saw this event involving Muslim

21     soldiers being transported across the hospital, as you claim, by -- by

22     French soldiers, did you report this to the VRS?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Across the hospital?

24             MS. HASAN:  Across the airport.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

Page 22717

 1             MS. HASAN:

 2        Q.   Witness, this is not the first time I see you smiling when I'm

 3     asking a question.  Is there something funny about what I'm saying?

 4        A.   No, no.  There's nothing funny about that.  You asked me whether

 5     you -- I told that to the VRS.  On the contrary.  The VRS wanted UNMOs to

 6     be present when the French soldiers were transporting Muslim because that

 7     had been going on for a long time.  That's why I find your question

 8     somewhat funny, because the VRS asked the UNMOs to be present and see

 9     what was going on.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  So the simple answer is, yes, you did report it.  Is

11     that how I understand your answer?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  The VRS reported to the

13     military observers what was going on at the airport, which is why the

14     military observers found themselves there.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was whether you reported it to the VRS.

16     Did you report this event to the VRS --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The answer is no.  Okay.  Then please answer the

19     question rather than to --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- tell us what you think to be more important than

22     what Ms. Hasan is asking you.

23             Ms. Hasan, next question, please.

24             MS. HASAN:  May we see -- can we see Exhibit P6593, please.

25        Q.   Now, the second line on that first page.  Can you read that for

Page 22718

 1     us?

 2        A.   You mean from the introduction?

 3        Q.   Yes.  The second underlined heading.

 4        A.   To sign the photo for Lola.  Is that what you mean?

 5        Q.   Yes.  And I read that it says GRM.

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7        Q.   And I take that it's been translated at least to

 8     General Ratko Mladic to sign the photo for Lola.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   To what photo is this referring?

11        A.   To General Mladic's photo because I had General Mladic's photos

12     and photos of others.  I wanted to have that as a souvenir.  I wanted his

13     signature.  I wanted him to autograph that photo.  I don't see why is

14     that a problem.  If it were Elvis Presley, it would be valued.  Why

15     shouldn't I have General Ratko Mladic's signature?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't want long stories.  I want answers to the

17     questions.  Is that clear?  Otherwise your testimony will lose much of

18     its importance if you just avoid answering the questions.  The question

19     was:  To what photo is this referring?  Could you tell us -- a photograph

20     of General Mladic apparently.  Okay.  That's the answer to the question.

21             Next question, please, Ms. Hasan.

22             MS. HASAN:  The witness has already answered what that was for,

23     so I have no further questions.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have a follow-up question to that.

25             Did you have this photo with you, or was it given to you by

Page 22719

 1     Mr. Lukic?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I brought that photo with me.  It

 3     wasn't Mr. Lukic who gave it to me.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And how do I have to understand that this remark

 5     is at the beginning of the list of questions given to you by Mr. Lukic?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are questions arising from my

 7     statement, and Mr. Lukic simply typed them up on a computer.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, sorry.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is just a reminder, I suppose,

10     for --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- for him, to remind him that the

13     photo should be signed.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you saying that in your statement you were

15     referring to a photo of General Ratko Mladic?

16             I'm only talking how this line, this remark, appears, how does it

17     come about that this is included in the list of questions?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first day I asked Counsel Lukic

19     whether I could visit General Mladic.  He said no.  And then I asked him

20     to have the photo signed.  How has that ended up on this viva voce sheet,

21     I really don't know.  You'll have to ask Mr. Lukic that.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, I'm asking you.  This is all.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.

24             MS. HASAN:  Just one very fine follow-up question.

25        Q.   Have you received that signed photograph to take home with you?

Page 22720

 1        A.   No.

 2             MS. HASAN:  Nothing further.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  One final further question from me.

 4             Did you hand over the photograph to Mr. Mladic for signature?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I gave that photo to Mr. Lukic.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you haven't received it back?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not receive it back.  I

 8     handed over another document, which I also didn't receive back.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, one follow-up question in this respect as well.

11             You made the comparison with Elvis Presley.  Now, Elvis Presley

12     was a celebrity and fans very much would like to have a photograph of

13     him, especially if it was signed by him.  This could give the impression

14     that you are a fan of Mr. Mladic, and I give you an opportunity to

15     comment on that.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not about being a fan of

17     General Mladic.  He is a historic person, a personality, and I'm a

18     historian and I want to have it in my collection where I have many

19     things.  So why not have this photograph too?

20             May I add something?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If it's relevant for the question, you may.  If it's

22     not relevant for the question, you should refrain.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1992, when I first interpreted

24     for General Ratko Mladic, I saved a glass used at that meeting as a

25     souvenir.

Page 22721

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan, you said that's it.

 2             MS. HASAN:  I --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Does it mean that your cross-examination is

 4     concluded or?

 5             MS. HASAN:  I did say so, but in answer to my question, in fact,

 6     the witness said he gave a document to Defence counsel and I'd just like

 7     to know what that document was.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then perhaps we finish this and then we take a

 9     break so that Mr. Lukic can start his re-examination after the break.

10             MR. LUKIC:  I answer that.  The document --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think if it's -- if it's asked the witness,

12     then the witness should answer it.

13             You -- yes, Ms. Hasan, could you please, in order to avoid any

14     confusion, repeat your question.

15             MS. HASAN:

16        Q.   Witness, you said that you gave Defence counsel the photograph

17     that you wanted General Mladic to sign for you as well as another

18     document, what was that other document?

19        A.   It's a document I received from General Cot, a commendation from

20     General de la Presle, and I wanted it handed over to this Tribunal.  But

21     I noticed yesterday that it's missing from my file, which means I didn't

22     receive it back.  I hope I will.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then given this answer, Mr. Lukic, did you receive

24     any document of which the witness now says he would like to hand it over

25     to the Tribunal?

Page 22722

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I have it, I think, with me in my bag --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I'm prepared to bring it back to the witness when

 4     he's finished.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you want the Tribunal to have a look at

 6     it, Mr. Batinic?  And what is it exactly.  You said a recommendation

 7     by -- commendation about you?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the name on it is

 9     Milorad Batinic, then it's me.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I do not know.  You gave the document, not me.  I've

11     never seen it.  Is it a commendation by --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a commendation, Your Honours.

13     I'm sorry, I thought you were looking at the document while speaking.  It

14     is a commendation because I have saved many lives of military observers

15     and I'm proud of that.

16             MR. LUKIC:  I have it in my hands anybody any wants to inspect

17     it.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just ask:  When you say Mr. Lukic must

21     give it to the Tribunal, who actually in the Tribunal?  What is the

22     Tribunal supposed to do with it?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe I misunderstood.  I thought

24     he had handed it over by now.  I -- into the file, into the evidence, as

25     something that speaks about me.  I just didn't understand.

Page 22723

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If any of the parties thinks that it would be

 2     relevant for us to look at, then we'll wait and see what the parties are

 3     doing with it.  At this moment, the Chamber is not -- there was nothing

 4     raised, any doubts, about the way in which this witness performed his

 5     duties when he worked for the UN.  At this moment at least not

 6     explicitly.  So therefore I leave it to the parties whether they want to

 7     present it and -- then perhaps a little explanation as to for what

 8     purposes.

 9             Ms. Hasan.

10             MS. HASAN:  Your Honour, I just ask that -- I just note that, you

11     know, this document was not disclosed to us as far as I'm aware.  So if

12     there are in the future other documents relevant to witnesses, we

13     should -- we should get disclosure of those documents.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, you're speaking aloud.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, after the break you'll not return into

20     this courtroom until this witness has concluded his testimony.  That's

21     because you spoke aloud again.  And I can --

22             One second, please.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And in view of what happened after the last -- or

25     during the last break, first, the witness will be escorted out of the

Page 22724

 1     courtroom.

 2             We'd like to see you back, Mr. Batinic, in 20 minutes from now.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We change the practice at this moment.  Mr. Mladic

 5     will now be first escorted out of the courtroom and the Chamber will

 6     leave the courtroom only after he has left.

 7             Could Mr. Mladic be escorted out of the courtroom.

 8              No -- yes, it can be open session.  No, I leave it.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated].

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, you leave the courtroom and can consult

11     with counsel outside the courtroom.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Outside the courtroom.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

15                           [The accused withdrew]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, as I told you before, and that is at the

17     basis of the change in this practice, both Judge Moloto and I heard a

18     reference to one of the members of the Prosecution team spoken aloud by

19     Mr. Mladic.  We were later informed that he continued to speak aloud

20     after we had left the courtroom, and that's the reason why we now ordered

21     Mr. Mladic to leave the courtroom first so that at least we have a full

22     oversight over what happens, even after we have concluded the hearing.

23             We take a break and we'll resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.

Page 22725

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, your estimate of the time you would need

 2     would be?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Many issues were opened directly attacking me and my

 4     team, so we'll have to clarify step by step, and I cannot tell you really

 5     now how long would it take.  I'll try to remind the witness about the

 6     events, and we'll see if he remembers the events.

 7             But at least next session.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not entirely clear to me what you mean by the

 9     events.

10             MR. LUKIC:  He cannot remember dates, obviously.  When we saw the

11     first page of the statement, we have to go day by day of those three days

12     although there were more than those three holidays.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now you may have misunderstood me when I

14     intervened when you want to clarify a matter.  The issue was not whether

15     what was written, typewritten, was something he would have said before,

16     but the simple question at that moment was, was the typewriting coming

17     from you, and was the handwritten version coming from someone else.  No

18     one had yet asked whether there may have been good reasons for

19     typewritten suggestions of answers.  That was a matter totally separate.

20     And that's the reason why I rather strongly reacted to your intervention,

21     because I think you started justifying where the issue was just to

22     establish the facts first.

23             MR. LUKIC:  I can confirm that anything that is typewritten on

24     this document is mine.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  That -- there seems to be no dispute about

Page 22726

 1     that.  That's ...

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Batinic, you'll now be -- before I allow

 4     Mr. Lukic to re-examine you Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for

 5     you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to take you back to one answer you

 7     gave before the break.  This is on page 51, lines 10 to 12.  I quote:

 8             "In 1992, when I first interpreted for General Ratko Mladic I

 9     saved a glass used at that meeting as a souvenir."

10             Just explain a little bit, please, when and in which position you

11     interpreted for Mr. Mladic?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About that glass, it was --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, I'm not -- I'm not talking about the glass.

14     I'm not interested in that.  Tell me what was your function as an

15     interpreter for General Mladic and when did that -- yeah, in which

16     time-period you were involved in that?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in late Autumn 1992 in my

18     capacity as interpreter of the UNMO section; that is to say,

19     military observers.  We visited the Igman Brigade under General Mladic,

20     and at that meeting I interpreted and later took that glass with me as a

21     souvenir.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm honoured.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

25                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

Page 22727

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] There are many things we need it clear up.

 2     Please give us short and precise answers whenever possible.  If something

 3     needs more explaining, you'll do that.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would suggest that we now compare

 5     two documents.  One is P6593, and I would appreciate it if this could be

 6     given in hard copy to the Judges and the witness, because we'll have to

 7     compare that with a different document.

 8             My impression was that it was the intention of the Prosecution to

 9     suggest that I coached the witness as to what he should answer.

10             Could we put on the screen 65 ter 30798.  That is a version --

11     the version of the witness's statement that the Prosecution uploaded

12     under this number.

13             First of all, I located five things that are not in issue,

14     correct me if I'm wrong.  On the first page, I found some things in my

15     questions that may appear as answers.  Under the subheading "Armament,"

16     we see that one of the bullet points is the killing of a member of the

17     wedding party, and the witness later added in his own hand,

18     Nikola Gardovic.  That's why I would like to pull up in e-court

19     65 ter 30798 at page 2.  It will be on your screens.

20             Under number 4 in the statement of this witness, paragraph 4, and

21     the statement is still not admitted into evidence, we read in the middle

22     of the paragraph:

23             "Perhaps I could indicate as their first action the killing of

24     the best man at a wedding party at Bascarsija in 1992."

25        Q.   Did you say that to the investigators sent by General Mladic?

Page 22728

 1        A.   Yes.  If it's written here, I've said it.

 2        Q.   Another bullet point -- do you have the questions before you?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   You mean the list of questions, do you have it on paper?

 5        A.   Yes.  But these are the viva voce questions.

 6        Q.   The second bullet point under question number 3, nightguards.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   In the same paragraph of the statement, number 4, just after the

 9     sentence I've just read, it says:

10             "For that reason, we started organising village guards, lest we

11     suffer the fate of our ancestors who were taken for slaughter and

12     execution during World War II."

13             Did you say this, too, to the investigators of General Mladic?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   The next bullet point says:

16             "Serbs in the majority, facing them Muslims."

17             Now let us look at paragraph 5.  I'll read the first sentence:

18             "The neighbourhood where I lived, the Serb population was in the

19     majority but across the road lived people of the Muslim faith."

20             Did you also say that to the investigators of General Mladic?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Then one of the questions is what people felt at that time.  And

23     in the B/C/S version on the next page -- could you please turn the page

24     in the B/C/S -- B/C/S version.  You need page 2.  Just remove the first

25     page.  At the top of page 2, it says:  "Uncertainty, fear, helplessness."

Page 22729

 1             Now, on the screen in the same paragraph, number 5 of the

 2     statement, the last sentence reads:

 3             "At that time of chaos, there prevailed a sense of uncertainty,

 4     fear, and helplessness."

 5             Are these your words as stated to the investigators?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   I found another bullet point, the last one that is not a

 8     question.  It's under civilians in Sarajevo.  And the bullet point is:

 9     "Mother disabled in wheelchair."

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please display

11     paragraph 8 of the statement.

12        Q.   Somewhere in the middle of paragraph 8, at the end of line 4, it

13     begins with: "My..."

14             It reads:

15             "My mother was disabled in a wheelchair ..."

16             Is this the sentence you said to the investigators of

17     General Mladic?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Batinic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would suggest that

21     65 ter 30798 be admitted into evidence.  That's the Prosecution number.

22             MS. HASAN:  No.  I oppose the admission of the -- the statement.

23     The pertinent parts have been read.  The statement covers more evidence

24     that was -- than was led in the direct.  We've spent quite a bit of time

25     discussing the reliability of the statements and the way they were taken.

Page 22730

 1     That has all been put into question.  There's no reason for the entirety

 2     of this statement to go in simply for the purpose of the statements that

 3     are already on the record.  And I did not cross-examine on all the

 4     subject matters addressed in here.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan, is there any dispute about that what is

 6     found in the typewritten part of the questions, the paper that was given

 7     by Mr. Lukic and then completed by handwriting, that similar text appears

 8     in that statement whatever the value may be of that statement, but there

 9     is no dispute about the words appearing, like the mother, disabled,

10     wheelchair, et cetera.

11             MS. HASAN:  No, I understood that these were in the statement.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Or --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  -- my next proposal is, when I listened carefully to

16     Ms. Hasan, that we cut everything else except the first page and those

17     paragraphs I quoted, 4, 5, and 8.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  There's no dispute about the matter --

20             MR. LUKIC:  I'll move on.  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and, Mr. Lukic, you have put it to the witness.

22     There's no -- therefore the -- if you withdraw it, we don't have to

23     decide.

24             MR. LUKIC:  I withdraw it.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then it's hereby withdrawn.

Page 22731

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I would just like to have this unsigned statement.

 4     This is unsigned.  Just because of the dates.  Since it would be -- just

 5     the first page, the cover page, so we have the dates that yesterday was

 6     disputed by the Prosecution that my team spoke with Mr. Batinic.  I would

 7     try to remind him.  Or if you don't need --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we have the dates on the first page is

 9     perfectly clear.  What is -- the dates of the interviews as mentioned

10     are - let's keep it very simple.  I read it into the record.  Dates of

11     interviews: 26th of March, 2013; 8th of April, 2013;  14-16 February,

12     2014.  The next line reads:  Interviews conducted by Milenko Dundjer,

13     Boris Zorko, Sasa Lukic.  That's apparently what you want to have on the

14     record.  That's hereby on the record.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Batinic, my first question:  Has anyone --

19     let's begin with me.  Did I, during our proofing sessions here in

20     The Hague over several days, have I ever told you to say any particular

21     thing?  Have I ever suggested what you should say?

22        A.   No.  May I now say something, Your Honour?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]...

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I even talked about very

25     interesting things --

Page 22732

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You've answered the question.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Batinic, did you tell me that you have

 5     difficulty remembering dates?

 6        A.   Yes.  Which is perfectly normal.  I don't remember insignificant

 7     dates.

 8        Q.   I'll ask you something about these objections you made to

 9     Mr. Dundjer from the team of General Mladic.  Did you ever object to

10     him that your statement contains some inaccuracies, apart from dates?

11        A.   [No interpretation]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We haven't heard any answer.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Nobody heard you.  Could you answer?

15        A.   I said no and then I stopped because you said I had to be short.

16        Q.   We have a lot of questions to go through.

17             In the statement, is there contained an event that you did not

18     discuss that was added by legal advisors; for instance, Markale I?  Did

19     we include without your knowledge?

20        A.   No.

21             MS. HASAN:  I don't know how the witness answered the question

22     because it's not clear which statement we're talking about.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Which statement you understood the question to be

24     about, Witness?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We're talking about the statement I

Page 22733

 1     gave to Mr. Dundjer.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is, the statement for which you signed.

 3     That's the 25-paragraph statement.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you're apparently seeking a lot of things

 8     which are not even claimed by anyone so, therefore, please --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Inference was that we did not act accordingly, and I

10     want to show that everything was done properly, and I'll just ask this

11     witness to remember some things.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I think there was never any suggestion that Markale

13     was introduced through the legal advisors or -- what was criticised was

14     the way in which everything went, and I did not understand that specific

15     conclusions were drawn from that apart from that it seemed to be

16     unprofessional and that it's inappropriate to ask for a signature if

17     still changes have to be made.  But, for example, the changes, dates, and

18     names, that was clear from the evidence of the witness that it was

19     limited to that, and I think that we find more or less the same in the

20     statement as was provided to the parties.  But I leave it to that.

21             Before you feel obliged to go into all kind of details which are

22     not even claimed by the Prosecution --

23             MR. LUKIC:  I didn't sleep for two nights, Your Honour, so I have

24     to clarify this, I'm sorry.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I feel sorry for that, Mr. Lukic.  Please proceed.

Page 22734

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't want to deprive you of good sleep.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you recall, were you told that nothing can be

 5     changed to your statement because it had already been uploaded into

 6     e-court?

 7        A.   I don't remember that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan.

 9             MS. HASAN:  Your Honours, the questions are leading.  He can ask

10     him what was -- what did you discuss, what was said to you.  You know.

11     But suggesting to the witnesses, okay, that nothing did you say, so and

12     so and so, is inappropriate.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  They are extremely leading, Mr. Lukic.  And --

14             MR. LUKIC:  But we got answer I didn't want, so I think that

15     Prosecution should be satisfied.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Yes, well, if that's the result of your

17     leading questions that you do not get the answer that you're trying to

18     lead the witness to, well, where earlier talked about the tragedy of

19     errors, perhaps this is part of the comedy of errors.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But, Mr. Lukic, the fact that you got an answer

23     that you didn't want doesn't make the question correct.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Exactly.  I accept that.  But there is no need that I

25     repeat it.

Page 22735

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] You gave us this first date as the 26th of

 2     March, 2013.  You said that that was when you gave your first statement,

 3     and you say that you spoke to Sasa Lukic.  I'm not going to dwell on this

 4     for a very long time because there is no contest there -- sorry.

 5     Actually, let it be an open question.  Where did you talk?

 6        A.   I remember it was a hotel near Slavija in Belgrade.

 7        Q.   Slavija.  You talked in the new wing of the Slavija Hotel that is

 8     on the square of Slavija.

 9        A.   Possibly.

10        Q.   Is that where you parted?  Is that where you went your separate

11     ways?

12        A.   Yes.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, where did you part, if you want to

14     avoid leading questions.  Not is that where you parted.  Where did you

15     part.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Where did you part, yeah.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's the question, that's the formulation.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Hence, the objection.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Did Sasa Lukic have a printer there?

22        A.   A laptop.

23        Q.   He had a laptop.  So he didn't have a printer.

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Is it correct -- or, actually, could he print that statement

Page 22736

 1     there?  Because what is in dispute is whether you signed the statement

 2     there.

 3        A.   That's right.  It remained in dispute.  Right now I cannot

 4     remember that --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that in dispute?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that still in dispute, Ms. Hasan, whether the

 8     witness signed the statement over there?

 9             MS. HASAN:  No.  I understood that that's -- sorry.  There --

10     there was -- the witness did testify that he may have signed a statement

11     on that day and I -- then corrected himself, I think, after that.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So you -- it's not the Prosecution's position that

13     he signed the statement in March 2013.

14             MS. HASAN:  Well, as far as I understood from the witnesses --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MS. HASAN:  -- that he didn't sign one in March.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what the Chamber understood as well, I think.

18             MR. LUKIC:  I'll move on.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

20             MR. LUKIC:  I'm happy that the Chamber understood that way as

21     well.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Now we're going to talk about two sessions after this first

25     meeting with Sasa Lukic.  The 8th of April, 2013.

Page 22737

 1             Do you remember, on the 8th of April, 2013, were you in Belgrade?

 2     Do you remember where you went?

 3        A.   I don't remember exactly.

 4        Q.   At the time, did you visit your father in Novi Sad?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I cannot pose --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, really every question is leading to the

 9     ultimate.  If -- if you don't know how to do it otherwise, the Chamber

10     cannot resolve that for you.  But, under the present circumstances, I

11     would say, and Ms. Hasan is not objecting to all of your leading

12     questions, but try to make at least one out of two questions non-leading,

13     and then have you made already an improvement of 50 per cent.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  I'll do my best, if it's enough.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you ever met with Darko Mladic?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Did Darko Mladic ever come with a man who did not have one eye?

19        A.   Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, they're all leading.  But someone who doesn't

21     have one eye, does it mean that he has two or three or no eyes at all?

22     It's -- Mr. Lukic, try to conduct a focused and clear -- the questions

23     therefore would have been:  Do you know a man by the name of Darko

24     Mladic.  That's the first question.  The second is:  Did you meet him?

25     The third question would be:  Was he accompanied by someone else?  Or --

Page 22738

 1     and a fourth question was then:  Did this person have any special

 2     physical feature.

 3             That's the way how you can get all the answers you want in a

 4     proper way.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Do you remember when that took place?

10        A.   I cannot recall exactly.  I was with a relative then.

11        Q.   Before you met Darko Mladic, did you talk to someone from the

12     Defence team of General Mladic?

13        A.   No.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we first of all know who Darko Mladic is,

15     Mr. Lukic.  I've got no idea.  It could be a relative of the accused; it

16     could not be a relative of the accused.

17             Witness, could you tell us who Darko Mladic is?

18             Could you the -- answer my question, please.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Could you please answer the Judge.  Could you tell him who

21     Darko Mladic is.

22        A.   Darko Mladic is the son of Ratko Mladic, General Mladic.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now we know that.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. LUKIC:  I hope this one will be proper.

Page 22739

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Through who did we establish contact with you?

 2     Who was it that you first saw from General Mladic's team; do you

 3     remember?

 4        A.   It was you.

 5        Q.   Do you know -- actually, did we know each other before that?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Do you remember who it was that brought us together?

 8        A.   Darko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's a little surprising because at page 68,

10     line 12 -- wait a minute.

11             At page 68, line 9, you said:

12             "Before you met Darko Mladic, did you talk to someone from the

13     Defence team of General Mladic?"

14             MR. LUKIC:  Can create the confusion, Your Honour.  I was

15     specifically thinking about the 8th of April, 2013, with that question.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The 8th of April is not part of that question.  So

17     the impression we are left with is that he met Darko Mladic -- he met you

18     before he met Darko Mladic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  No.  No.  I -- I can --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  According to the question.  Correct your question.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you in more general terms, Mr. Lukic,

22     what's the issue?  I mean, there's no claim, at least I have not heard

23     any claim of inappropriateness in how you got in touch with the accused.

24     The Chamber has not --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Of the witness.

Page 22740

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Of the witness.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh -- yes, with the witness.

 3             So, yes.  So, therefore, is there any claim that it would be --

 4     have been inappropriate to interview the witness and to -- to -- I mean,

 5     apart from what happened after that, the chaos that may have arrived, but

 6     there -- is there any issue there?

 7             Ms. Hasan I'm looking at you as well.

 8             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, that's the first I hear of this

 9     evidence.  I mean, it wasn't raised, you know, how they got in touch with

10     the witness was not raised during the direct or by, you know,

11     Your Honours' question or by myself.  So I'm not sure what this is

12     leading to, though counsel seems to suggest that it has something to do

13     with the 8th of April.  But I don't know.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well.

15             MR. LUKIC:  I cannot ask leading questions.  I have to go around.

16     This is I'm going around, and I'm not yet on the topic.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then come quicker to the topic.  Come to your

18     point as quickly as possible, Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you remember, we've seen that, you testified

21     about that, when it was that you first told the Defence of General Mladic

22     that you got your friend out of Sarajevo.  Do you remember?

23        A.   I remember at a meeting with Boris Zorko and Lukic, Sasa, that's

24     when I said that.  That was a meeting in the Slavija Hotel opposite.

25        Q.   We have it recorded differently, but I cannot lead you.  I cannot

Page 22741

 1     suggest anything.

 2        A.   Can I say something?

 3        Q.   Do you remember -- I'm talking about the 8th of April, 2013.  Do

 4     you remember that some group of people came to you and where were these

 5     people be from?  And that prevented you from staying longer for this

 6     meeting or conversation.

 7        A.   I don't remember what that's about.

 8        Q.   Let's go on.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan.

10             MS. HASAN:  As far as I recall, the witness previously testified

11     he never met with anyone on the 8th of April, 2013.  He doesn't recall

12     meeting the Defence on that date, so counsel's question --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  He has no recollection of that.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Obviously, I was trying to remind the witness.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So what you then -- the appropriate way of

16     doing it is the following.  You testified yesterday that you have no

17     recollection on meeting anyone on the 8th of April, 2013.  Do you

18     remember ever to have met with members of the Defence team under such

19     circumstances that you were unable to stay a very long time.  Do you?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just remember March 2013.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

22             Then the witness has no recollection, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC:  I -- I have to put one more question on this issue

24     and then I'll leave the topic.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

Page 22742

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   With Sasa Lukic, did you ever have coffee together in

 3     New Belgrade?

 4        A.   I had coffee with Darko Mladic and Sasa Lukic was with him and my

 5     relative was there too.

 6        Q.   So when did that happen?

 7        A.   Well, maybe it's that famous April.  I really don't remember.

 8        Q.   You mentioned -- you mentioned the Autumn of 2013, that you saw

 9     people then.  It's not in the statement because you said that you just

10     met Priest, Vojo; rather, Vojislav Carkic nicknamed Zuca.  And Sasa Lukic

11     was there too?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Did they stay together after you had left?

14        A.   Yes.  I've just remembered something else.  May I tell you?

15             His Honour Judge Orie asked me yesterday when we talked about the

16     plural.  I said that Sergei Viyoderov was the second person.  However, I

17     remembered yesterday that I was supposed to establish contact for the

18     Defence of the general, Sasa Lukic, that is, with a person whose identity

19     I'm not going to disclose now.  This is a person who is in Sarajevo, who

20     is of Muslim ethnicity, or, rather, Bosniak ethnicity, who would be an

21     exceptional witness for the Defence.

22        Q.   That date is not registered here, so now we're going to move on

23     to these three days, the 14th, 15th, and 16th of February of this year,

24     2014.

25             Do you remember that Dundjer, Milenko, and Boris, Zorko, were

Page 22743

 1     taken around Sarajevo, that you took them around Sarajevo?  Did you show

 2     them things?  What did you show them?

 3        A.   I showed them certain things that had to do with the case.  I

 4     explained the combat lines, where the lines were.  I drove them in my own

 5     car.

 6        Q.   When did that happen?

 7        A.   Was probably that February.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan.

 9             MS. HASAN:  Your Honours, this is precisely the danger of leading

10     the witness.  It was proposed to the witness that the three days, 14th,

11     15th, 16th February, and then he's asked do you remember driving

12     Milenko Dundjer and Zorko around.

13             Now, the witness previously testified very clearly, no, I did not

14     meet with the Defence on the February 14 and 16th.  And now it's been

15     suggested to him and he says possibly, probably that was February.

16     That's exactly the danger of these types of questions.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, Ms. Hasan is right.

18             MR. LUKIC:  But the witness gave us even more explanation.  I

19     didn't ask him.  He gave us details because that happened.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Your questions are wrong, not the answers.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Batinic, this year, did you see the representatives of the

24     Defence team?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 22744

 1        Q.   This year, when you met with the representatives of the Defence

 2     team, what else did you show them in addition to the lines of

 3     confrontation?

 4        A.   It's hard for me to remember right now.  Usually I go to the

 5     confrontation lines.

 6        Q.   With the representatives of the Defence of General Mladic, did

 7     you sometimes discuss the tunnel?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   What kind of tunnel is this?

10        A.   This is a tunnel that's now been turned into a museum.  It was a

11     war time tunnel that was dug out in 1993.

12        Q.   Did you show the tunnel to the representatives of

13     General Mladic's Defence?

14        A.   Yes, I drove them that way by car.

15        Q.   When did that happen?

16        A.   Please don't take my word for the dates.

17        Q.   This year?

18        A.   This year.

19        Q.   As for Milenko Dundjer, did you ever take him to your home?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   When did that happen?  What year?

22        A.   This year.

23        Q.   Yesterday you mentioned the office in Sarajevo that is used by

24     the Defence of General Mladic.  With Milenko Dundjer and Boris Zorko,

25     were you ever in that office with them?

Page 22745

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   What year was that?

 3        A.   This year.

 4        Q.   Do you know anybody from that office by name?

 5        A.   A woman named Milena who worked there.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Did somebody meet you in that office or, rather, did

 7     somebody wait for you while the investigators were in the office?

 8        A.   Milena was in the office.  She was the one who opened the door

 9     for me.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now I'd like to call up a

11     document, 1D02000.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps I meanwhile ask a question to the witness.

13             You said you went to the -- you took the members of the team

14     around and you visited what you said is now a museum, the tunnel.  What

15     was the specific issue they were interested in?  Was it the existence of

16     the tunnel or the location of the tunnel, or what else was it that they

17     wanted to know and that you wanted to show to them?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, we did not enter the

19     tunnel at all.  We pulled over by the tunnel.  I just wanted to explain

20     the situation as it was during the war and how Muslim forces were

21     transported in UNPROFOR vehicles.  I wanted them to realise what was

22     going on during the war in respect of my future evidence that I was going

23     to give before this Tribunal.  That was my intention.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  So -- [Overlapping speakers]...

25             THE WITNESS: [Overlapping speakers]...

Page 22746

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- rather general about the tunnel being used for

 2     the purposes as you explained to us.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The tunnel was used for military

 4     and civilian purposes during the war; i.e., both sides were connected by

 5     it, as it were.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's usually with tunnels, it has two ends

 7     and then it connects the two ends, yes, that's ...

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.  Correct.  May I add

 9     something else?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.  No, I have put my question.

11             Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] What did you want to say?  Can you finish?

14        A.   The tunnel was used by civilians and by the military.

15        Q.   You said that.

16        A.   Every day a total of 3.000 soldiers could go through the tunnel.

17        Q.   But you also testified that even before the tunnel was dug out,

18     the French soldiers transported the soldiers of the BiH army, so we don't

19     dwell upon that.  Please look at the image 1D02000.  What does the

20     picture depict?

21        A.   The French General de La Presle representing General Cot who is

22     handing me a commendation of the former commander of UNPROFOR for

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24        Q.   Do you know when you provided this photo to our Defence team?

25        A.   I believe I gave it to you when I first met you here in

Page 22747

 1     The Hague.

 2        Q.   This photo has been uploaded in the Tribunal's system.  It

 3     happened on 17 of April.

 4        A.   I suppose I gave it to you then.  I really don't know.  I had a

 5     few more photos on me, but I suppose I gave it to you then when you say I

 6     did.

 7        Q.   My investigator Boris Zorko sent me this photo on the 19th of

 8     February, 2014.  It was e-mailed to you -- to -- to me as a scanned

 9     photo.

10        A.   I believe you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness is supposed to give evidence, Mr. Lukic,

12     not you.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Will you allow for the possibility, since it was

15     uploaded on the 17th of April, that this photo reached our Defence team

16     before you gave it to me.

17        A.   It's possible.  If that's how things were done, then I suppose

18     the date is correct as well.  But I can't remember.

19        Q.   It's only understandable.  You said that you remembered only the

20     most important dates --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan.

22             MS. HASAN:  Perhaps I haven't grasped where Defence counsel is

23     going with this, but I don't see what this event of Mr. Batinic receiving

24     whatever he received came up during the cross.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 22748

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber has carefully listened to

 2     your re-examination.  Much of it does not arise from cross-examination.

 3     Much of it arises, apparently, out of concerns that are your concerns

 4     only and no one else's concerns, a side path I used.  You've got 20

 5     minutes.  Whatever you do with this 20 minutes, it's up to you, but

 6     that's the time the Chamber grants for re-examination.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I'll finish earlier, Your Honour, but thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

10             What we wanted to show is that there was conversation on the 8th

11     of February.  So it's not that it -- it does not arise from the

12     cross-examination.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that you're referring to the 8th of

14     April?

15             MR. LUKIC:  8th of -- 8th of April, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's see.  Let me see.  8th of April.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Two months after that.

19             And, Ms. Hasan, the witness doesn't remember which doesn't mean

20     that it didn't happen, just that the witness doesn't remember.  So

21     there's no need to establish that it happened because we do not

22     understand the witness to say, It never happened.  He says, I don't

23     remember.  That's different.

24             MR. LUKIC:  I accept that.  I'll move on.  I would just offer

25     this photograph into the evidence.  Then we could see when it is

Page 22749

 1     uploaded, when it was uploaded.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  At this moment, the Chamber doesn't see the

 4     relevance of this.  If at any later point in time that would be

 5     different, then please make a submission, Mr. Lukic, which clearly

 6     explains the relevance of it and what probative value this photograph

 7     has.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I would just call another

 9     document; the document I had in my bag.  It's uploaded now and released

10     so we can have it front of us.  It's 1D03722.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any dispute about that General Jean Cot --

12             MR. LUKIC:  I just wanted to show it to everybody.  I don't want

13     to introduce it into the evidence.  If the Prosecution wants to introduce

14     it, this is the opportunity to do so.

15             MS. HASAN:  Your Honours, it's not really appropriate for counsel

16     just to want to show everyone something while the witness is being

17     re-examined.  I mean, I could have been given this document to see during

18     a break, for instance.  Now it's being shown -- this is the first time I

19     see this document.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             MS. HASAN:  I don't think it's relevant to anything.  It doesn't

22     arise from the cross.  I really don't know why this is being raised at

23     this moment, and I do objection to its admission.

24             MR. LUKIC:  We --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I think Ms. Hasan is right.  And at the

Page 22750

 1     same time it happened what you wished to happen, that is that it was on

 2     our screens.  Let's leave it to that and put your next question to the

 3     witness, and could the document be removed from the screen now again.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I want to state for the record that the document

 5     didn't have any date on it.  It's just for the record.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.  Thank you.  And I do not have any more

 7     questions for this witness.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you for your patience --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Mr. Lukic.

11             Then I think it would be --

12             Any further questions, Ms. Hasan?

13             MS. HASAN:  Your Honour, if we can just go into private session

14     for a brief moment.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  For -- yes.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22751











11  Pages 22751-22752 redacted.  Private session.















Page 22753

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Since there are no further questions for you, this

24     concludes your testimony, Mr. Batinic.  I'd like to thank you very much

25     for coming to The Hague and for answering the questions that were put to

Page 22754

 1     you by the parties and by the Bench.  I wish you a safe return home

 2     again, and you may now follow the usher.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for having

 4     given me this opportunity.  I would like to shake your hands if that's

 5     not a problem.  May I?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No, we --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No again.  Okay, thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We do not shake hands.  We're not here in a personal

 9     private capacity, we're here in a professional capacity and you are here

10     as a witness.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Then I invite you to

12     come to Sarajevo.  I'll take you for a private personal tour of Sarajevo.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Our first concern is that you arrive back safely in

14     Sarajevo.

15             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

16                           [The witness withdrew]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, and we'll resume after the break

18     and we'll -- one of the first things we will do is to go into private

19     session -- in closed session.

20             We resume at a quarter to 2.00.

21                           [The accused entered court]

22                           --- Recess taken at 1.24 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 1.50 p.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We will turn into closed session before the next

25     witness is brought in, and this may take easily 15 minutes or even more.

Page 22755

 1                           [Closed session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

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23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 22756











11  Pages 22756-22768 redacted.  Closed session.















Page 22769

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 5             We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume on Monday, the 16th of

 6     June, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.23 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 16th day of June,

 9                           2014, at 9.30 a.m.