Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22958

 1                           Wednesday, 25 June 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is case number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus

 9     Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             To the extent the transcript of yesterday, page 22918 may have

12     caused any confusion as to whether the document marked for identification

13     under number 534 would have been a P or a D document, it is a Defence

14     document.

15             Having said this -- yes, but I don't receive any -- I have no

16     volume.  Yes, now it's better.

17             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Veljovic.  Perhaps there is no

20     need to remind you but I nevertheless do, that you are still bound by the

21     solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony, that

22     you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23             Mr. Weber will now continue his cross-examination.

24                           WITNESS:  STEVAN VELJOVIC [Resumed]

25                           [Witness answered through interpretation]


Page 22959

 1             MR. WEBER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber: [Continued]

 3        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Veljovic.

 4        A.   Good morning.

 5        Q.   Yesterday we left off discussing the topic of modified air bombs.

 6     At the end of the day, I asked you about Vladimir Radojcic and his

 7     awareness of modified air bombs.  In your answer, on transcript page

 8     22956, you stated:

 9             "He knows of one instance when it fell on his own positions but

10     went unexploded."

11             How do you know that Vladimir Radojcic knows of this one

12     instance?

13        A.   First of all, I would like to ask the Trial Chamber kindly:  I

14     had two strokes, and I commanded units at different levels, from company

15     and squad upwards.  Could I please explain to the Court all of this a bit

16     more extensively?  Could I please be given the authority to do that?

17     Because all these questions are geared towards air bombs and nothing

18     else.

19             Sir -- I mean, Mr. Prosecutor, I came here to defend

20     General Mladic, and I provided a written statement for him as well which

21     has been corroborated by this Court.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will respond to the question --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Stop.  I would like to correct you.  You did not

25     come here to defend Mr. Mladic.  You came here to give testimony to the


Page 22960

 1     truth.  You're not either in favour or -- or against Mr. Mladic.  That

 2     should be clear to you that you are not here in a position to defend.

 3             And I would invite you to just answer the questions Mr. Weber

 4     considers relevant.

 5             And I also would like to ask you to explain, perhaps in two more

 6     words, about the strokes you referred to.  What did you want to say to us

 7     when you told us about the two strokes you had?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I told you that I survived

 9     these two strokes.  I am a sick man, after all.  I cannot remember each

10     and every thing.  Please take that into consideration.

11             And what I said about air bombs being imprecise is the following:

12     No artillery piece in the world is precise.  Not rockets, not mortars

13     that have been used for hundreds of years.  The shell remains in the

14     barrel, and these things that can happen.  There are so many things that

15     have to be taken into account; how the soldier feels, and then maybe the

16     shell gets stuck in the barrel, and so on.  Nothing is accidental.

17             Perhaps there can be even a 3-kilometre deviation.  The American

18     ones were made according to the most up-to-date technology, and there was

19     a mistake of a few seconds, and all this technology and all this money

20     went to waste.  So all use of artillery can turn into collateral damage,

21     as the Americans call it.

22             So I would like to explain that this air bomb, too, is imprecise.

23     So that is why I thought that --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm going to stop you there.

25             First of all, have you been criticised for what you said


Page 22961

 1     yesterday?  Did anyone criticise you and say, "Well, this is not correct

 2     or accurate," or -- what you told yesterday?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes -- no.  I'm just giving yes or

 4     no answers.  I mean --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think it's within my domain

 7     just to say yes or no.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Let me just -- could you please answer my

 9     question whether anyone criticised you for what you said yesterday,

10     because if you don't remember things, and you talked about that, just

11     tell us.

12             But was there anyone who criticised you for your yesterday's

13     testimony?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody criticised me.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Nobody commented on it to you?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  "Yes," meaning no one did; or, yes, someone did?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody criticised me, nobody.  I

19     mean -- but this is going so fast, and they are cutting me off, and they

20     are putting all these questions that I have this underlying stress --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and that causes anxiety.  And,

23     say, five years ago --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, witness --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I mean, we are not talking --


Page 22962

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I'm going to stop you now.  You should stop

 2     talking when I indicate to you that you're supposed to stop talking.

 3             Now just answer the questions.  If you don't remember something,

 4     no problem, you tell us.  Just stick to the facts.  Do not elaborate on

 5     how imprecise American, Russian, Chinese, African weapons are.  Just

 6     listen careful to the question, answer the question, and leave it to

 7     that.

 8             Is that clear to you?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Clear.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   Mr. Veljovic, I'm just going to follow-up on a couple of matters

13     that His Honour just asked you.

14             Has anyone mentioned your testimony in any way at all to you

15     since yesterday?

16        A.   Nobody.  Except for what I mind, and what I mind is that you keep

17     asking me things from the past, things that happened seven years ago.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, again, we are talking about the

19     past.  Therefore, what questions will be put to you is for Mr. Weber to

20     decide, and if there is any objection to that, the Defence will object.

21     You should not intervene in the line of questioning.  You just should

22     focus on answering the questions.

23             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   Mr. Veljovic, since yesterday, have you seen any media coverage


Page 22963

 1     or any information that might be publicly available related to the

 2     testimony you gave?

 3        A.   I did not.  I haven't been following the media here.  Just the

 4     football games.

 5        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to return to the question I asked you at the

 6     outset of today.

 7             Yesterday, at transcript page 22956, you stated that Mr. Radojcic

 8     knows of one instance when a modified air bomb fell on his own positions

 9     but went unexploded.  How do you know that Vladimir Radojcic knows of

10     this one instance?

11        A.   Well, I know because I was operations officer in the corps and he

12     told me about it.

13        Q.   When did he tell you about it?

14        A.   1995.

15        Q.   When did this one instance occur?

16        A.   I don't know exactly when, which month.

17        Q.   Could you approximate what time of year?

18        A.   Well, sometime in the summer, May, June, something like that.

19        Q.   When you say it fell on his own positions, is it correct that you

20     were referring to the positions of the Ilidza Brigade?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Where in the Ilidza Brigade's zone of responsibility was this

23     modified air bomb fired from?

24        A.   I don't know.  They had urban positions and positions in a

25     forested areas.


Page 22964

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I just seek clarification.

 2             You said that you were told -- that Mr. Radojcic told you about

 3     it in 1995.  And when asked about when this event had happened, you said

 4     it was May, June, perhaps in summer, you thought.  Of that same year?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. WEBER:

 9        Q.   When this modified air bomb fell on his own positions, where did

10     it fall?

11        A.   I don't know about that.

12        Q.   When was the last time that you spoke with Vladimir Radojcic?

13        A.   I spoke to him here when we were here in The Hague, before this

14     break.  But I didn't ask him about that.

15        Q.   Okay.  How many days have you been in The Hague?

16        A.   Today it's 14 days.

17        Q.   How many times have you seen Mr. Radojcic during these 14 days?

18        A.   Well, he went back home.  And then I hear that he returned

19     yesterday.

20        Q.   Okay.  How many times did you see him before he went back home?

21        A.   Well, say, two or three times.

22        Q.   How did you hear that he returned yesterday?

23        A.   Well, I know from the lawyers and those officials from the

24     Victims and Witness Unit.

25        Q.   When did the lawyers tell you that he returned yesterday?


Page 22965

 1        A.   Well, they said that to Milos, and they said before he was

 2     supposed to return that he would be coming back on Tuesday.

 3        Q.   When you say "Milos," is it correct that you're referring to

 4     Milos Skrba?

 5        A.   Yes.  Last night around 9.00 he said that to me.  He said that

 6     Vladimir came and that he's going home, and this morning we said goodbye.

 7        Q.   Is it correct that last night you spoke with Milos Skrba?

 8        A.   Well, I didn't really talk.  He talked to the lawyers around 8.00

 9     or 9.00.

10        Q.   When you say "the lawyers," are you referring to the lawyers of

11     Mr. Mladic?

12        A.   Yes, Stojanovic, I guess.  As far as I know.

13        Q.   And Mr. Skrba told you that he had spoken with Mr. Stojanovic?

14        A.   Yes, I guess.

15        Q.   I take it you're aware that Mr. Skrba is a witness in this case.

16        A.   Yes, he was before me.

17        Q.   Going back to my question, how many times did you speak with

18     Mr. Radojcic before he went home?

19        A.   I've told you a few times; two, three, four times.

20        Q.   Was this in person?  These two to three, four times.

21        A.   I don't understand what it is that you're asking me.

22        Q.   Did you meet with him face to face?

23        A.   Well, yes.  I talked to him personally.

24        Q.   How many times have you talked with Milos Skrba since you've been

25     in The Hague?


Page 22966

 1        A.   Well, before he went out to testify on Monday, whenever, we

 2     talked often and took walks along the seashore.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, if I could just have one moment.

 4                           [Prosecution Counsel Confer]

 5             MR. WEBER:

 6        Q.   Sir, I'm going to return to your testimony about modified air

 7     bombs --

 8             MR. WEBER:  Unless Your Honours had any other questions.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We have no further questions.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   In the Milosevic case, at transcript page 5910, you stated:

13             "And in our areas inhabited by Serbs and in the area of

14     responsibility of the Republika Srpska Army, there were no production

15     facilities for air bombs.  And I said that launchers were made just by

16     ordinary craftsmen.  This was not done in a factory.  This was an

17     imperfect weapon that caused great risk for the crew, for our own forces.

18     It is a very inaccurate weapon because bombs have to be dropped from the

19     planes.  That's what they're made of.  I think I have already explained

20     all that."

21             Do you stand by this testimony today?

22        A.   Yes.  Just this:  The factory --

23        Q.   Sir --

24        A.   -- had to make certain machine parts --

25        Q.   Sir, I'm going to go through it step by step as I was doing


Page 22967

 1     yesterday.

 2             How did the modified air bombs cause great risk for the crew that

 3     was launching them?

 4        A.   Well, because it can explode nearby.  It can fall nearby.  It can

 5     also not reach its target, not go far away and then it can destroy them.

 6        Q.   In the Karadzic case, at transcript page 29270, you were asked:

 7             "Q.  And it's true, isn't it, that air bombs are actually highly

 8     destructive?"

 9             You answered:

10             "Yes.  From 250 to 500 kilogrammes, or even up to 1.000

11     kilogrammes, intending to be launched from aircraft.  However, that civil

12     war forced people to devise those launchers, but we were supposed to use

13     those air bombs only in wilderness where there were no human settlements,

14     where there was no habitation, and all they created was panic among the

15     troops."

16             Do you stand by this testimony today?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   In this answer you said, "all they created was panic amongst the

19     troops."

20             Yesterday you also confirmed that modified air bombs fired in

21     urban areas would have posed a risk of hitting civilians.

22             Is it correct that modified air bombs would have created panic,

23     if they were used in an urban area where civilians were present?

24        A.   Well, of course it has a lethal effect, more than one shell.

25     Also it creates greater craters.  Not like some people think, that it has


Page 22968

 1     a lethal effect only at 150 metres or so.

 2        Q.   Sir --

 3        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ...

 4        Q.   -- I'm going to show you --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't hear the

 6     witness.

 7             MR. WEBER:

 8        Q.   Sir, I'm going to show you an exhibit that you were shown in the

 9     Milosevic case.

10             MR. WEBER:  Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 18593.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you say 185?

12             MR. WEBER:  That's correct, Your Honour.  18593.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Weber.

14             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Sir, this is a 10 August 1994 order for further operations from

16     SRK Commander Dragomir Milosevic.  As I said, you were previously shown

17     this document in the Milosevic case.

18             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have the last page of

19     both versions.

20        Q.   Sir, I'd like to direct your attention first to the initials SC,

21     which appear to the left of General Milosevic's signature.  Is it correct

22     that these are the initials for Cedo Sladoje?

23        A.   Most probably.

24        Q.   Do these initials, the first ones, the first ones listed before

25     the slash, do these initials indicate that this is the individual who


Page 22969

 1     drafted this order for the approval of General Milosevic?

 2        A.   Yes.  On the left-hand side is the person who drafts the order,

 3     and then it is approved and signed by the commander.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of the B/C/S

 5     and page 3 of the English.

 6        Q.   Mr. Veljovic, I'd like to direct your attention to the sentence

 7     immediately above item 6 on this order.  It states:

 8             "2 air bomb launchers will be ready for firing at Mosevicko Brdo

 9     structure and 2 launchers for firing at Gradina, Konjsko Brdo and

10     Velika Bukva."

11             This document is from August 1994.  Is it correct that the SRK

12     had deployed and begun using modified air bomb launchers by this time?

13        A.   In August 1994, I was not in the corps, and I am not aware of

14     this.  I see that Mosevicko Brdo and Konjsko Brdo, et cetera, I see that

15     that is a wasteland on the Nisic plateau where bombs were thrown.  All of

16     these places here, it's all afforested.  It is not accessible.  It is

17     only on foot that the army could have taken this.  There are no villages

18     there.

19             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would tender this document into

20     evidence at this time.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 18593 receives number P6604, Your

23     Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  P6604 is admitted into evidence.

25             MR. WEBER:


Page 22970

 1        Q.   Sir, I'm going to move on and discuss some other topics with you.

 2             A general question here:  Is it correct that Milovan Bjelica is a

 3     relative of yours.  His father and your mother are brother and sister;

 4     correct?  My apologies for mispronouncing the name.

 5        A.   Yes.  Milovan Bjelica is related to me, but it's not that we are

 6     related in the way you mentioned.  My mother is from the brother, and he

 7     is from the sister.  It's called first cousins, basically.

 8        Q.   Is it correct that Mr. Bjelica was a member of the Sokolac SDS?

 9        A.   Yes.  And president of the Executive Board of the party for

10     Sokolac.

11        Q.   I am now going to direct your attention to the time-period of

12     April 1992.  You discussed this time-period in paragraph 36 of your

13     statement admitted as D532.

14             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 11755.

15        Q.   Before you is a published copy of an interview that your relative

16     Milovan Bjelica gave to Srpsko Oslobodjenje on 27 December 1994.  This

17     article was previously shown to you during the Karadzic case, and I would

18     like to discuss a few parts of it with you today.

19             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 3 of the

20     English translation.  It's still the same page on the B/C/S.

21        Q.   Sir, in the B/C/S original, I'd like to direct your attention to

22     the bottom of the third column from the left in the article.  Do you see

23     the question that asks:

24             "How did you arm the people?"

25        A.   I can see it.


Page 22971

 1        Q.   Toward the end of the answer to this question, Mr. Bjelica

 2     stated:

 3             "First we took the equipment and weapons from Western

 4     Herzegovina, from Gabela, which we brought to Romanija.  Then we took the

 5     equipment from Central Bosnia, from Visoko, from Sarajevo municipalities

 6     which were not under our control.  And our greatest success was taking

 7     the equipment and weapons from Faletici."

 8             Is it correct that the taking of weapons and equipment that

 9     Mr. Bjelica describes occurred in April 1992?

10        A.   Yes, it occurred in April 1992 while we were still the JNA.  The

11     216th Brigade intervened on orders from the 4th Corps of the former JNA

12     in order to assist the guards securing the JNA warehouses.  The Muslim

13     forces had broken into the warehouses and started taking away weapons.

14     The 216th Brigade was asked to provide protection for the magazines --

15     for the warehouses.

16        Q.   Sir, one second.

17        A.   It was between the 13th and the 14th of April, 1992.

18        Q.   Sir, let's continue on with this article.

19             After the next question, Mr. Bjelica is asked:

20             "It was probably Gagovic?"

21             And he answers:

22             "No, it was Simovic but Gagovic was there as well.  We did it by

23     night in April 1992.  We entered with hundred trucks on the first night.

24     There was a group of young men, activists of SDS, which I was leading,

25     and also a group from Pale from the party led by Radomir Kojic, then unit


Page 22972

 1     of current Colonel Jovan Bartula, then Ilija Maletic with his people from

 2     Stari Grad.  This depot contained all weapons of the Territorial Defence

 3     of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina.  We rated in there the first night, and

 4     as soon as we entered the depot, the Green Berets and special forces of

 5     Dragan Bikic started surrounding the barracks.  We repelled the attack

 6     and started pulling out the weapons.  The first night, we took the whole

 7     artillery and weapons.  There was about three hundred artillery tubes,

 8     from thirty five to fifty thousand rifles as well as other equipment."

 9             Just for the sake of completeness here, before I go through some

10     other things, a little further on in this answer, he says:

11             "We were helped by the unit of Colonel Dragoljub Milosevic, i.e.,

12     the first Romanija Brigade."

13             And then it also states:  "And we brought all the weapons and

14     equipment to the territory of Romanija in three days."

15             Is it correct that between 600 and 700 soldiers of the 216th JNA

16     Brigade participated in these operations?

17        A.   Yes, it is true.  It was the 216th Brigade and not the 1st

18     Romanija Infantry and not a JNA Brigade.

19             As for the Bjelica, I didn't see him on the 14th or the 13th.  I

20     didn't see him anywhere.  Nor did I see Kojic or Maletic.  On the 13th or

21     14th we were there.  Now, whether they had been there before, I don't

22     know, but on those dates I didn't see them.

23             There were not 50.000 rifles there, and it wasn't the warehouse

24     of the entire BiH Territorial Defence.  It was just a warehouse of the

25     city of Sarajevo.  It was between 25- and 30.000 rifles.


Page 22973

 1             As for the 300 --

 2        Q.   Sir --

 3        A.   -- cannons, well, the entire Bosnia-Herzegovina TO didn't have as

 4     many.

 5        Q.   Sir, if you could please listen to my questions, and we'll go

 6     very quickly today.

 7             Is it correct that the 216th Brigade took some of these weapons

 8     and placed them in Mokro in the barracks and some of the weapons went to

 9     the Territorial Defence of Sokolac?

10        A.   Yes, that is true.  We transferred parts of the weapons to Travno

11     and to Sokolac.  And the 216th Brigade had its own weapons and its own

12     warehouses.  The 216th Brigade didn't take any of the weapons from the

13     warehouse.  The barracks in Mokro belonged to the JNA.  As for Sokolac,

14     it was taken to a factory and the weapons were kept there, although I

15     don't know what became of them.

16        Q.   This reference to Colonel Dragoljub Milosevic, is it correct that

17     this is actually a reference to Dragomir Milosevic?

18        A.   Yes.  He commanded the 216th Mountain Brigade of the JNA.

19        Q.   I do want to ask you about two other names in the passage.

20             Is it correct that Radomir Kojic was a policeman at the beginning

21     of the war and then he became the commander of the Trebevic Battalion of

22     the 1st Romanija Brigade around the 31st of October 1992 when

23     Milorad Lalovic died?

24        A.   Not Milorad Lalovic but Lolovic.

25        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Is the rest of what I said correct?


Page 22974

 1        A.   It is.  He came after the 31st of October, because

 2     Milorad Lolovic was killed on that day.  He came about a week later from

 3     the police.

 4        Q.   Sir, sir --

 5        A.   Some police personnel withdrew as part of their battalion.

 6        Q.   Sir, Radomir Kojic was a member of the 1st Romanija Brigade

 7     between the end of October 1992 and 7 August 1995; correct?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   After the 7th of August, 1995, is it correct that Radomir Kojic

10     was assigned to the 4th Slpbr after this brigade was formed?

11        A.   Yes.  He became the Chief of Staff of the 4th Sarajevo Light

12     Infantry Brigade; in other words, my deputy.

13        Q.   From the beginning of the war in 1992, Jovan Bartula was a

14     commander of a mixed anti-armour regiment of the SRK; correct?

15        A.   Yes, he was.

16             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 11755 into evidence at

17     this time.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 11755 receives number P6605, Your

20     Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  P6605 is admitted.

22             MR. WEBER:

23        Q.   In the Milosevic case, at transcript page 5710, you were asked a

24     series of questions and answers:

25             "Q.  What happened with regular soldiers after the time you


Page 22975

 1     mentioned?"

 2             Your answer:

 3             "Ordinary soldiers of other ethnicities put down their weapons

 4     and went home."

 5             "Q.  What did you do?

 6             "A.  I remained with my unit.

 7             "Q.  What time specifically are you talking about?"

 8             Your answer:

 9             "I'm talking about April and May 1992."

10             Do you stand by this testimony in this case?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   I'm going to move to another topic here.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber --

14             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- if the witness testified in a previous case

16     ability other ethnicities, wouldn't it be good --

17             MR. WEBER:  Sure.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to know what the ethnicity is as he started

19     thinking from?

20             MR. WEBER:  Of course.

21        Q.   Sir, when you stated that ordinary soldiers of other ethnicities

22     put down their weapons, is it correct that these soldiers were Croat and

23     Muslim?

24        A.   No.  Some officers were Croats, but there were no Croats in the

25     area of Sokolac, Rogatica, and Vlasenica -- or perhaps just a few.


Page 22976

 1             For the most part, they were Muslims, and they were the most

 2     numerous group in the 216th Brigade.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was about ordinary soldiers, not about

 4     officers.  When you said "ordinary soldiers of other ethnicities, did you

 5     mean to say other than Serbs?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. WEBER:

10        Q.   Sir, is it correct that Bascarsija was the most culturally and

11     historically important part of Sarajevo?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Bascarsija is the old part of Sarajevo and it is comprised of

14     small houses and buildings; correct?

15        A.   Yes.  Old houses built in the Turkish style.  The Ottoman empire

16     reigned in that part of the world leaving its culture traces behind as

17     well as the Austrian Hungarian Empire.  Such buildings were not to be

18     targeted a General Milosevic personally ordered.  Even if fire was opened

19     from such buildings, we were ordered not to engage them.  We only used

20     one Howitzer, 150 --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Had we fired from a

22     single Howitzer battery --

23        A.   -- all of Bascarsija would have been gone.  And you could

24     actually check that.  It is the same as it had been in 1991.  It was

25     preserved, 100 per cent.


Page 22977

 1        Q.   Sir, I just want to be clear on your view here.  Is it correct

 2     that you view that it would be inappropriate for the SRK to target

 3     Bascarsija because of the culture importance of its buildings and the

 4     significant presence of civilians?

 5        A.   Precisely so.

 6        Q.   In fact, Mr. Veljovic, there were SRK orders and fire plans to

 7     target Bascarsija; correct?

 8        A.   There were no such orders.  Actually, the order was not to fire

 9     at Bascarsija unless ordered by the commander.  I didn't see any other

10     documents to that effect.  So fire could only be opened on -- if

11     personally proved by General Milosevic while he was in command, and I

12     presume the same was in place during Galic's commanding.  And you can

13     check.  Bascarsija remains the same as it had been before the war.  The

14     houses there are so old and derelict that they are so soft that a single

15     shell could cause major damage.

16        Q.   Sir, if you could please listen to my questions.  There is no

17     need to repeat your answers.  It's clear what you said so far.

18             Is it correct, then, that any time the SRK filed a shell on

19     Bascarsija it was approved by the corps commander?

20        A.   No shell was ever fired at Bascarsija.

21        Q.   Okay.  Let's go through some stuff.

22             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P4423.

23        Q.   Mr. Veljovic, before you is a 26 November 1992 SRK order from

24     Radislav Cvetkovic to the 4th MAP and 4th MPOAP.  Is it correct that

25     these two regiments were controlled at the corps level?


Page 22978

 1        A.   It is true that they were controlled by the corps command.  At

 2     the time, I wasn't with the command of the corps, since this dates back

 3     to the 26th of November.  It was received by the artillery chief and --

 4        Q.   Sir --

 5        A.   -- the artillery commander.

 6        Q.   Sir, we're going to go through the document.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Can the Prosecution please have the last page of the

 8     order in both versions.

 9        Q.   Now, sir, I'd like to again direct your attention to the initials

10     over to the left, and we see the initials RC.  Is it correct that this

11     would mean that Radislav Cvetkovic was the drafter of this document?

12        A.   Most likely.  And the chief of artillery also signed it.

13             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please go to page 2 of both

14     versions.

15        Q.   Under the section of this order entitled:  "Firing Tasks,"

16     Colonel Cvetkovic orders the engagement of fire on a number of locations.

17             I'd like to direct your attention to the third paragraph from the

18     top of this page in the B/C/S original.  This is the second paragraph

19     from the top in the English translation.  The order states:

20             "Support the offensive by engaging fire along the following

21     axis," the last of which is Borija-Bascarsija.

22             Is it correct that this order indicates that fire should be

23     engaged from Borija, which is in the SRK territory, and into Bascarsija?

24     That is the axis that this order indicates should be fired upon.

25        A.   I can't find it.


Page 22979

 1        Q.   Sir, I believe under item (c), the third paragraph from the top

 2     of the page.  It's about the first -- a third of the page down.

 3        A.   It says "open fire in order to support."  And the routes are

 4     Ciglana, Kobjeglava, Pitslik [phoen], Cuprija.  Basic sector --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you, Witness.  I think you're reading

 6     from the wrong paragraph.

 7             If you would look at the top of the page, it starts with a C,

 8     where it reads "vatreni zadaci."  And then the second and the third

 9     paragraph start with the same word, "Podrzati."

10             Now, Mr. Weber wants you to focus on the third paragraph; that is

11     a two-line paragraph in your language.  You see that?  It refers to

12     giving support on certain axes, the first one Faletici-Zmajevac; and

13     second one Mrkovici-Breka; and the third one, and that's what Mr. Weber

14     is focusing at, Borija-Bascarsija.

15             Do you see that?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see it.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   It's correct that this order indicates that fire should be

20     engaged from Borija and into Bascarsija; correct?  Along that axis.

21        A.   You would need to ask that the gentleman who drafted this order.

22     At the time, I was not a member of the SRK command.  I'm not familiar

23     with this order.

24             It does read what you say, but it never came about.  Never.

25        Q.   Sir --


Page 22980

 1        A.   Never.

 2        Q.   Sir --

 3        A.   I was at Bascarsija after the war --

 4        Q.   Sir, if you say -- I'm a little confused.  If you're saying that

 5     you don't know anything about something, but then at the same time you're

 6     claiming that it never happened, I'm confused how you could say both.

 7        A.   Because I saw Bascarsija right after the war.  Nothing was

 8     destroyed.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not part of the command at

11     that time, and I couldn't have seen this order.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I became a corps command member in

14     1995.  I don't know anything about this order.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, if you say that the one contradicts the

16     other, and that I tend to disagree with you.

17             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Because you can not know anything about an order

19     being given and, nevertheless, to establish that what you've seen in your

20     life is inconsistent with the execution of such an order.

21             MR. WEBER:  I understand.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That is a possibility.  The witness explained that.

23     But when you put the question, I thought you could have already in an

24     attempt to properly understand the witness, you might have come to that

25     thought already.


Page 22981

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. WEBER:  That's understood.

 3             Your Honour, I'm actually going to move on to another document.

 4     I don't know if this is a good time.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, then perhaps it's better to take the break

 6     first.

 7             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

 8             We take a break of 20 minutes, Mr. Veljovic, and would like to

 9     see you back after that.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, while we are waiting for the witness to

15     be brought in, may I take it that you'll easily finish within the next

16     hour?

17             MR. WEBER:  I'll try to make that easily within the next hour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. WEBER:  So I approximate about another 35 to 40 minutes.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Veljovic, Mr. Weber will now continue his

22     cross-examination.

23             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24             Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30811 for the

25     witness.


Page 22982

 1        Q.   Mr. Veljovic, this is a document that the Defence tendered

 2     through you in the Milosevic case.  It is a 12 August 1994 order from SRK

 3     Commander Dragomir Milosevic.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please go to the last page of

 5     both versions of this order.

 6        Q.   Above the typewritten signature of this order, there are the

 7     initials DM.  Is it correct that this indicates Dragomir Milosevic

 8     drafted this order himself?

 9        A.   Well, it does say DM/UM.  Most likely it is so, but I find it

10     rather unlikely that the commander would draft a document himself.  In

11     any case, his name is not in the signature bloc.

12        Q.   Yes.  We understand that this was a dispatch that you had

13     testified to before.

14             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please go to the first page of

15     the B/C/S original but stay on the same page of the English translation.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I seek a clarification.

17             Mr. Veljovic, you said his name, and that was a reference to

18     Dragomir Milosevic, his name doesn't appear in the signature bloc.

19             What do you mean by that?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I find it strange that someone else

21     signed the order and that Milosevic dictated it, although he was the

22     corps commander.  I don't know why someone else would sign it, but I may

23     be oblivious.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we go back to the last page in B/C/S.

25             Do you see a name in the signature bloc?


Page 22983

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Dragomir Milosevic.  But

 2     there -- there -- he didn't sign it.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There is no signature to be seen.  Thank you.

 4             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honours, excuse me, I might have been off

 5     on the -- the page.  If we could go back to page 1 of the B/C/S and go --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so --

 7             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you said I would be surprised if one else signed

 9     for him.  But there is no signature at all under the document, so I did

10     not fully understand what you meant by someone else signing for him.

11             Apart from that, that seems to be a telex-type communication,

12     which is not equipped for signatures to be -- to be communicated.  So I

13     do not fully see what -- what you intend to tell us.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is strange that he may have

15     dictated this document, that somebody else typed it, that there is his

16     name in the signature bloc, and there is no signature.

17             On the other hand, the heading is appropriately worded, and the

18     document came from the command so all that is strange.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

20             MR. WEBER:  Okay.  If I could go -- please go to page 1 of the

21     B/C/S and page 2 of the English translation.  And in the B/C/S, if we

22     could please scroll down towards the bottom of the page.  As with the

23     same in the English translation.

24        Q.   Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to item number 7.  Under

25     this item, General Milosevic orders:


Page 22984

 1             "Artillery anti-aircraft missile unit and armoured mechanised

 2     units to be on stand-by with necessary forces and equipment to act on

 3     targets on earth and in air-space."

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Weber, this is not exactly what we see on

 5     this English translation.

 6             MR. WEBER:  I'm sorry if I misread the order, Your Honour.  I'll

 7     reread it.

 8        Q.   "Artillery anti-aircraft defence artillery and rocket units and

 9     armoured mechanised units to be on stand-by with necessary forces and

10     equipment to act on targets on the ground and in the air-space."

11             And then under the second indentation, it says:

12             "4th Mixed Artillery Regiment is to draw up a fire plan in the

13     region of Bascarsija and Vrbanja.  Fire is to be opened according to the

14     order from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps Command Post."

15             Sir, I put it to you that the SRK command did, in fact, issue

16     orders for fire plans that targeted Bascarsija.

17             Do you have any comment?

18        A.   Most probably that was the case.  However, fire was not to be

19     opened without his order.

20             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders the document at this time.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30811 receives number P6606, Your

23     Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

25             MR. WEBER:


Page 22985

 1        Q.   Sir, before I go on to another document, I just want to note:  Do

 2     you understand the English language?  Are you able to read or write it?

 3     Okay.

 4        A.   No.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30856.  The

 6     B/C/S translation of this document is pending, so with Your Honours'

 7     leave, I'd just read out the sections to the witness.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's see how much it is.  And if you would

 9     please read slowly --

10             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Mr. Weber.

12             MR. WEBER:

13        Q.   Mr. Veljovic --

14             MR. WEBER:  And if we could please scroll down a little bit.

15        Q.   Mr. Veljovic, this is an UNPROFOR sitrep from Sector Sarajevo

16     dated 21 March 1993.  I'm going to read a few portions of this sitrep to

17     you.  If at any time you need me to repeat what I'm saying, please let me

18     know.

19             Under section 2, it says:

20             "Response.  I responded to Dr. Ganic as follows:"

21             And then there is a subpart, a, that says "Shelling Activity."

22             Under item 1, the sitrep says:

23             "HQ Sector Sarajevo was well aware of the shelling activity in

24     the old city.  Military observers in observation posts overlooking the

25     area had recorded the attacks."


Page 22986

 1             MR. WEBER:  And then I'd like to read one more portion to the

 2     witness.  Could we please have page 2 of this sitrep.

 3        Q.   Under item 3, it states:

 4             "Investigation.  The following investigative action was taken:"

 5             There is a subpart a.

 6             "Number of Impacts.  A fair estimate of the number of artillery

 7     and mortar impacts recorded by the UNMOs in the old city area, from

 8     approx 0530 hours to approx 1000 hours on 21 Mar, is in excess of 400.

 9     While not a record, it is an unusually high number of impacts in this

10     area.  It should be noted that the total number of impacts recorded for

11     the entire area under observation for today is 2398."

12             Sir, I put it to you that Bascarsija, the old city, was in fact

13     shelled, that at times it was heavily shelled, and it did cause

14     destruction or damage to the Bascarsija area.

15             Do you have any comment?

16        A.   I have no comment.  I was not a corps member at that time.  I am

17     not familiar with this order.  I guarantee you that that didn't happen.

18             The old city is a large area which belonged to both the Serbs and

19     the Muslims; i.e., it was in -- under their control.  It is Sedrenik,

20     Bistrik, Bascarsija, Polog, Hresa, and it goes all the way to Vucija Luka

21     [phoen].  All that is in the old city.  When this happened, I don't know.

22     I don't know who this order was sent to and when.

23             In 1994, in the month of December, I was a corps member;

24     therefore, I was never familiar with this particular order.  If that many

25     shells had ever fallen on the old city, they would have caused havoc.


Page 22987

 1             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders the document into evidence.

 2     We ask that it be MFI'd -- I'm sorry, Your Honours.  The translation is

 3     not complete.  If we could inform the Chamber when it is complete.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number assigned to this

 5     document would be ...

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30856 receives number P6607, Your

 7     Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Pending translation, P6607 is marked for

 9     identification.

10             MR. WEBER:

11        Q.   Sir, I'm going to move on to another topic.  And before I show

12     you something, I'm just going to explain you something --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

14             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, I'm a bit concerned and a bit worried by

16     a possible misunderstanding.

17             The English texts here relates to "the old city area."  Now you

18     have not explained that much why -- whether the old city area is the same

19     as Bascarsija, or whether Bascarsija is part of that old city.  Well,

20     that would need more attention to know exactly whether Bascarsija was

21     targeted.

22             But there is another matter.  The witness says that the old city

23     area was, to some extent, even under Serb control, which makes me fear

24     that he has a totally different understanding and that Stari Grad, which

25     means the old town, which may not be the city centre itself, that there


Page 22988

 1     is some confusion caused by the difference in language as well which has

 2     not been clarified until now.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Judge, I understand your concern.  And I think at

 4     least what would be relevant for the testimony of the witness is to get

 5     his understanding, and I'm happy to do so.

 6        Q.   Mr. --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  He gave -- he gave some of it.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  He said that the old city area was partly under Serb

10     control, and you just moved to your next subject.

11             So if you say "seeking that," I mean, the witness hinted at it,

12     but you apparently did not catch it.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. WEBER:  I am not sure where we're at.  Would you like me to

15     ask a -- is there something that --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I've explained to you what my concerns are and

17     the evidence that you are eliciting at this moment, so it's up to you to

18     see whether you can make any clearer and how to do that.

19             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

20        Q.   Sir, do you consider Bascarsija a part of the old city?

21        A.   Yes, one part of it is part of the old city.  The entire area of

22     Sedrenik, the entire area of Bistrik, and both were under the control of

23     the Muslim forces.  Our parts were Hresa, Bolazi [phoen] and one part of

24     Trebevic.  The inhabited part of Trebevic; several villages there.  And

25     the entire residential area of the old city was under the control of the


Page 22989

 1     Muslim forces.

 2             We're talking about the municipality of Stari Grad, which is

 3     quite spacious.

 4        Q.   Okay.  With that, sir, I'm going to move on to another topic.

 5             In the Karadzic case, the Office of the Prosecutor was provided

 6     with two statements from you.  These two statements are almost the same

 7     in substance.  The one that was tendered and admitted in this case as

 8     D532 has a few additional paragraphs.

 9             Paragraph 2 of the admitted statement in this case states:  "I

10     testified in the case of Prosecutor versus Dragomir Milosevic," and

11     provides the case number.  This paragraph was different from your other

12     Karadzic statement which has not been tendered, which is what I'd now

13     like to discuss with you.

14             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30805.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  This document are two B/C/S texts under this number.

16             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution apologises for that.  I

17     do have the English in front of me.  If I -- I can read it and then we

18     could replace it, if that's okay.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If there is any way you could get it on the

20     screen, if it's uploaded under any other number, then we would like to

21     see it.  Because the Chamber is usually inclined to follow also in

22     reading what you --

23             MR. WEBER:  Of course.  It was the copy that was filed with the

24     92 ter motion.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think we may have that before us.


Page 22990

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. WEBER:

 3        Q.   Directing your attention to paragraph 2 of your other Karadzic

 4     statement, it states:

 5             "At the beginning of the interview, I was shown a summary of the

 6     transcript of my testimony before the Tribunal" -- excuse me, "testimony

 7     before the International Criminal Tribunal in The Hague in case," and

 8     there is IT-98-29/1-T, "I hereby confirm its contents and add the

 9     following."

10             Mr. Veljovic, do you confirm that this is what happened during

11     your interview with the Karadzic Defence?

12        A.   Can you go on reading?  What are you referring to?

13        Q.   Sir, if you can look at paragraph 2 of the -- of your other

14     statement in front of us, can you confirm that that is what happened

15     during your interview with the Karadzic Defence?

16        A.   [No interpretation].

17        Q.   Sir, there is no recorded interpretation.  Did you provide an

18     answer?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the witness did but --

20             MR. WEBER:

21        Q.   Sir --

22        A.   No, I didn't say anything.  I just read that I testified in

23     The Hague, before the International Criminal Tribunal in The Hague in the

24     case IT-98-29/1-T.  I hereby confirm its contents and add the following.

25     I'm a timber technician, that's under number 3, and so on and so forth.


Page 22991

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I stop you there.

 2             The question by Mr. Weber was whether you were, indeed, shown a

 3     summary of the transcript of your testimony in the case mentioned and

 4     whether you then confirmed the content of that.

 5             Did that happen?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most probably it was shown to me.

 7     I don't remember at the moment.  I only remember the case designation,

 8     but I don't know what it refers to, what case we're talking about.  What

 9     does the number stand for?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that the Dragomir Milosevic case?  Yes --

11             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Mr. Weber, that --

13             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that should have been -- if you would have said

15     that immediately.

16             Well, the question is whether the Karadzic Defence lawyers, or

17     the Defence team, whether they had shown you a summary of the testimony

18     you had given in the Dragomir Milosevic case and whether you then

19     confirmed its contents and then added other things.

20             Is that what happened?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't ask me much about

22     Milosevic before I came to testify in the Mladic case.  They just --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- gave me some outlines --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...


Page 22992

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but very little.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Who -- who -- one second, please.

 3             When you say, "they just gave me some outline," who is "they"?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor asked me something

 5     about the Milosevic case.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Not --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly what.  I don't

 8     know what he asked me.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's -- let's go back.

10             This is a statement which was given to the Karadzic Defence, and

11     it states that at the beginning of the interview - that is, the interview

12     with the Karadzic Defence, not the Mladic Defence but the Karadzic

13     Defence - that at the beginning of the interview, you were shown - that

14     is, on paper - a summary of the testimony you had given in the Milosevic

15     case and that you then said, "Well, I confirm the content of what you

16     just have shown me."

17             Is that what happened, when preparing for your Karadzic

18     testimony?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they didn't show me this

20     IT-98-29/1-T.  They didn't show it to me.  They just asked me questions

21     in the courtroom.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             Mr. Stojanovic, one question for you.  You -- this is what you

24     produced.  What summary was shown to the witness, as far as the Mladic

25     Defence is concerned?  I mean, the witness confirms a summary, which is


Page 22993

 1     apparently not a full transcript of his Dragomir Milosevic Defence [sic],

 2     so the Chamber would be interested to know what was shown to him and ask

 3     you whether you could tell us.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going to tell

 5     you what I did with the witness.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I can't tell you what the

 8     Karadzic Defence team did with him.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Stop.  You present to us this material as relevant

10     for our decision-making, so I'm not asking you what you did, but I'm

11     asking you what summary was shown to the witness by the Karadzic Defence.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] According to what I learned from

13     Witness Veljovic was that when -- before he testified in the Karadzic

14     case, the Karadzic Defence team told him -- or, rather, reminded him and

15     briefly reminded him of how he testified in the Milosevic case.  They

16     asked him if he wanted to stick by that testimony, he confirmed, but that

17     he also wishes to add something.  After having received such an answer

18     from Mr. Veljovic, this Defence team learned that Mr. Veljovic has other

19     things to add before he came to testify, and that's what we added to his

20     previous statement to which he fully adheres.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you did not immediately inform everyone

22     that where it says that the witness was shown a summary, which he

23     confirms, which is quite an important matter, that that, in fact, had not

24     been done, and that he was just orally -- and that you did not even know.

25     You didn't verify with the Karadzic Defence.  You just let us read that


Page 22994

 1     the witness was shown a summary, and that's what you want to present as

 2     evidence.

 3             Not knowing what the summary was, even thinking that there was no

 4     written summary at all that could have been shown to him.  That's

 5     apparently the situation.  I can't -- I can't find anything else.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] My conclusion precisely, Your

 7     Honours.  The witness told us that he was reminded of what he said, that

 8     the transcript was verbally presented to him --

 9             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- in a shortened form.  I don't

11     know what else the Karadzic Defence team did.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  But, Mr. Stojanovic, that's now the second time you

13     tell us, and I've heard that, but that contradicts what is in a statement

14     you present to us as evidence.  Because the statement says, "I was shown

15     a summary."

16             Therefore, my question:  Where is the summary?  So that we know

17     at least what the witness would have confirm.  Then you say there was no

18     summary, at least no written summary; and, at the same time, you present

19     in evidence that there was a written summary.  That is, at the best,

20     sloppy.  Let's leave it to that.

21             Mr. Weber -- well, if you want to add anything, Mr. Stojanovic.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due

23     respect, I take note of what you're saying.

24             In the statement, it says clearly that there are no written

25     transcripts.  It says here, in the B/C/S version, at the beginning of the


Page 22995

 1     interview:  "I was confronted with the summary of the transcript," and

 2     this is what the witness told us, but he did -- he wasn't shown a

 3     written, a full written transcript.  The witness never told us that.

 4             The Karadzic Defence team just confronted him with the outlines

 5     of the transcript.  It doesn't say in the B/C/S version that the witness

 6     was ever shown a written summary of the transcript, or the full

 7     transcript for that matter.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, when I use strong wordings, if there

 9     is a translation issue, which could have been clear if the Prosecution

10     would have uploaded both the B/C/S and the English version of this, then

11     we would have identified that.  Because in English it doesn't say "I was

12     shown the transcript" or "I was" -- if you say "I was shown," that means

13     you can look at it.  Well, you can't look at words.  You can only look at

14     objects and that would be a text.  But if the original says, "I was

15     confronted with a summary of my Dragomir Milosevic testimony," then it

16     may well be that the translation does not reflect what the original says.

17             MR. WEBER:  I -- Your Honour, in the first manner, we have

18     corrected the upload.  We do have that available now as 65 ter 30805a.

19     And, Your Honours, thank you for your indulgence on that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So --

21             MR. WEBER:  So with respect to the second matter, I don't how

22     else to actually reconcile that except to ask for some type of

23     verification or --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we have to -- it's certain that the translation

25     of paragraph 2, and then especially the first sentence of this document,


Page 22996

 1     should be verified by CLSS.  Mainly focusing on whether -- well, I leave

 2     it to that.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, if I was use -- again, if I use

 5     strong words, and if it's due to a translation error, then I apologise

 6     for that.  But, unfortunately, I cannot work but in the language I

 7     master.  And apparently you have the same problem as far as your language

 8     is concerned.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Please don't hold it against me,

10     Your Honour.  But, quite simply, I'm all tense myself, and I'm getting

11     lost myself with all these three statements from three trials, and I

12     cannot even remember all the things that I discussed with all these

13     different people, so many of them, so I really do apologise.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, everyone is now at ease again.

15             Mr. Weber, you as well?  Then please proceed.

16             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I know you had a preference for not

17     having multiple statements in, but the statement that is admitted is very

18     similar to this statement.  I've pointed out the main differential.  I

19     don't know if you want to mark it for identification, or just not have

20     it, and then have an oral report at a later date as to the verification

21     of the paragraph.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  If you first elicit the evidence and then we'll see

23     what we might need on the record.  If there are small portions to be

24     read, it's fine.  If it's longer portions we'll have to look at, then we

25     might find other solutions.


Page 22997

 1             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

 2        Q.   Mr. Veljovic, is it correct that the contents of your statements,

 3     both of them, in the Karadzic case were additions to matters that you did

 4     not mention during your testimony in the Milosevic case?

 5        A.   Well, it certainly does contain what I did not mention during the

 6     Milosevic case, but you see how this goes.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

 8     come closer to the microphone and could all unnecessary microphones

 9     please be switched off.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You were invited to come closer to the microphone,

11     Mr. Veljovic.

12             MR. WEBER:

13        Q.   Sir, in the Karadzic case, at transcript page 29262, you were

14     asked about your previous testimony in the Milosevic case.  You were

15     asked the following:

16             "Q.  And when you came here to testify in his defence, you knew

17     what he was charged with at the time?"

18             You answered:

19             "Yes, I knew what he had been charged with."

20             Do you stand by this testimony?

21        A.   Well, I did not fully read his indictment, but I know what he was

22     indicted for, the blockade of Sarajevo, shelling.  I don't know all these

23     things that were put forth by the Prosecutor.  Sniping, killings.

24        Q.   Were you aware that General Milosevic was charged with the

25     shelling of the Markale market-place on 28 August 1995 when you testified


Page 22998

 1     in his case?

 2        A.   I knew that he was charged for Markale, for what had happened on

 3     the 28th of August, but General Milosevic was not really commander of the

 4     Sarajevo Romanija Corps at that time.  It was Cedo Sladoje.  And I kept

 5     saying that time and again.  And it wasn't taken into account until it

 6     was proven before the court.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was whether you were aware of

 8     General Milosevic being charged with the shelling of the Markale market.

 9             The first line of your answer completely answers the question:

10     You knew that he was charged for Markale.  All the rest was not asked.

11             Mr. Weber may have other questions for you.

12             MR. WEBER:

13        Q.   Is it correct that you testified in the Milosevic case for four

14     days?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Is it correct that you were asked about your time in the

17     4th Sarajevo Light Infantry Brigade during your Milosevic testimony?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Is it correct that you were specifically asked about the staffing

20     level of the 4th Slpbr and the weapons you had?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   During your Milosevic testimony, is it correct that you did not

23     claim that two 120-millimetre mortars from the 4th Slpbr were redeployed

24     from Trebevic to Trebinje in August 1995?  This is just something you

25     added for your testimony in the Karadzic case for the first time;


Page 22999

 1     correct?

 2        A.   Well, I couldn't have testified about that in the Milosevic case

 3     when they hadn't asked me about it.  They didn't ask me about Markale at

 4     all.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, there might be --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Find it where they asked me about

 7     the Markale situation in the Milosevic case.

 8             MR. WEBER:

 9        Q.   Sir, my question wasn't about whether you were asked about the

10     Markale market.  You've already confirm that you were asked about the

11     equipment you had and its deployments, its staffing level.  So I want to

12     stay and focus on that.

13        A.   Yes, they asked me about the weapons, deployment, and personnel

14     that we had.

15             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I'm happy to go through two pages of

16     transcript from the Milosevic testimony.  The witness has confirmed the

17     fact that he did not discuss the specific things.  I don't know if it's

18     going to be -- if you want me to spend the time doing it, or if you would

19     just -- I don't know if the Defence would have any objection --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would.

21             MR. WEBER:  -- if I would just tender the two pages for the

22     Chamber to be able to assess it on its own.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Or agree that he did not address the matter.  I

24     mean, to read in those two pages to find out that the witness did not say

25     in those two pages anything about the -- apparently the removal of


Page 23000

 1     certain equipment at a certain period of time and that he just testified

 2     about the equipment overall they had without referring to temporary

 3     absence of part of that equipment, I think the parties could agree on

 4     that, isn't it?

 5             MR. WEBER:  That would be fine.  But it would also allow the

 6     Chamber to see that he was asked questions which may have triggered other

 7     information.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if there are specific questions, you say,

 9     "Well, this should have" -- a complete answer would have required, then

10     please --

11             MR. WEBER:  I --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- either give them to us or agree with

13     Mr. Stojanovic that we can read them, and then ...

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is with pleasure that I will

15     reach an agreement with the Prosecution on that.  If the Prosecutor also

16     agrees that this kind of question about units and artillery pieces of the

17     brigade that was headed by the witness had not been put in that concrete

18     case, then I agree.

19             MR. WEBER:  I don't agree with that.  If we agree that the

20     transcript can come in, I believe the Chamber can assess it for itself as

21     to what was asked and what was in the context of that.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently on -- I leave it to you whether you want

24     to wait for the break and to see what you can agree upon with

25     Mr. Stojanovic, or to start now, but the Chamber would not be -- would


Page 23001

 1     not highly appreciate to hear an oral recitation of two pages of a

 2     document mainly to find out what is not in there.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Find a suitable way of resolving it.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6        Q.   In paragraph 30 of your statement, admitted as D532, you claim

 7     that your brigade, the 4th Slpbr, had a mortar battery with two

 8     120-millimetre mortars in the Brus sector.  Is it correct that this

 9     sector is on the eastern portion of Mount Trebevic?

10        A.   Yes, that is correct.  But it's not the eastern portion of

11     Mount Trebevic, it's the central portion.

12        Q.   In paragraph 31, you claim that your mortar battery and 160 men

13     were sent to the Trebinje front around the 24th of August, 1995.  Do I

14     understand correctly that it is your evidence that you sent two

15     120-millimetre mortars and six 82-millimetre mortars to Trebinje?

16        A.   Yes, that is what I claim.

17        Q.   Do I understand correctly that the 160 men and the mortar battery

18     were the only support that you sent to the Herzegovina Corps?

19        A.   Those 160 men were not mine.  Perhaps 80 were mine, and the rest

20     is from the sabotage detachment from the corps.  And my deputy was

21     appointed commander of that unit - Kojic, Radomir - to go and help the

22     Herzegovina Corps.  Since he led that unit, he took his own resources

23     because he trusted his own resources as support, and he took these

24     mortars and took his own unit because he had full support -- he had full

25     confidence that they would support him the best.  And I reacted and I


Page 23002

 1     called Cedo at that time because Cedo was the commander --

 2        Q.   Sir --  sir, I'm sorry to cut you off.  I wasn't asking for --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the witness

 4     anyway.

 5             MR. WEBER:

 6        Q.   Sir, if we could please go through this in an orderly fashion and

 7     please listen to my questions.

 8             Is what you described in your statement and in -- in just your

 9     answer just now, the only support that you sent to the Herzegovina Corps?

10        A.   The only support that was sent by the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

11        Q.   These weapons from the battery were no longer available to your

12     brigade; correct?

13        A.   Yes.  Until it returned from the area of Trebinje.  In the month

14     of September, around the middle of the month, it returned from Trebinje.

15        Q.   Is it your evidence that you left your positions on the Trebevic

16     axis undefended at the end of August 1995?

17        A.   Yes, we left them undefended as far as my brigade was concerned.

18     However, the corps gave me approval for the corps artillery to support me

19     because the mortars of the other battalions were far away.  Gorazde, the

20     Nisici plateau, I did not have any battalions nearby.  The brigade was

21     deployed towards Gorazde, the Jahorina Battalion towards Olovo, and the

22     Trebevic Battalion towards the city of Sarajevo.  Since, at Borije, there

23     was a mixed artillery regiment, that regiment could have supported me at

24     any point in time.

25             There wasn't any combat, and I never asked for any support


Page 23003

 1     because the offensive was practically over, and the army was at peace.

 2     There weren't any provocations coming from the Muslims, so I had no need

 3     to use the artillery.  If it was necessary, then I would have called the

 4     corps, and the corps group would support me from Borije.

 5        Q.   Did the corps artillery take up your positions on Mount Trebevic?

 6        A.   Well, yes, and they helped me many times.  Not the entire corps

 7     artillery but part of it.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30809.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  While that comes up, Mr. Weber, could you please

10     look at line 21 on page 44.  I just want to clarify, did you ask:

11             "Did the corps artillery take up your positions" or "their

12     positions"?

13             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, thank you for catching that.  I believe

14     I said "did the corps artillery take up your positions on

15     Mount Trebevic."

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was your intention to say "your positions".

17             MR. WEBER:  Yes, correct.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours.  I

19     think that the question is a confusing one and not precise.  What does

20     that mean, "to take over positions"?  Physically or by artillery fire?  I

21     think it would be fairer to the witness to put the question in a

22     different way.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You can do so in re-examination, Mr. Stojanovic.  At

24     least taking a position is, for me, clear language, but if there is any

25     doubt about that, please explore that later on.


Page 23004

 1             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution -- I believe, actually -- yup,

 2     the document is before us.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as for what you

 4     said and what the Prosecutor said just now:  None of that has been

 5     interpreted.  I see General Mladic reacting to that as well.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then I re-read it so that Mr. Mladic is able to

 7     hear it.

 8             Mr. Stojanovic, you raised the issue about the unclarity of the

 9     question and thought it would be fairer to the witness to put the

10     question in a different way.  Then I said:  "You can do so in

11     re-examination, Mr. Stojanovic.  At least taking a position is, for me,

12     clear language, but if there is any doubt about that, please explore that

13     later on."

14             And then Mr. Weber said:

15             "Could the Prosecution -- I believe, actually -- yup, the

16     document is before us."

17             That's what he said.  And then you intervened.

18             The record being complete now again, please proceed, Mr. Weber.

19             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

20             For the record, before us on the screen is 65 ter 30809.

21        Q.   Mr. Veljovic, this is a 17 August 1995 4th Slpbr report on the

22     state of combat readiness.

23             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please go to the end of the

24     document.

25        Q.   Is it correct that this report is from you?


Page 23005

 1        A.   Yes, correct.  My signature is here.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could we please return to the first page of both

 3     versions.

 4        Q.   On this first page, under section (a), your report states:

 5             "The brigade is stretched along the front carrying out its combat

 6     tasks along the following three axes:  Nisici, Trebevic, and Praca."

 7             Is it correct that your brigade was still active on the Trebevic

 8     axis as of this date?

 9        A.   It was, with one battalion.

10        Q.   In the next paragraph, the report states:

11             "Even though the brigade had barely got to its feet, it was

12     immediately thrown into the fire, and 100 troops were engaged on the

13     Trebinje axis and 70 troops on the Trnovo front, making the already wide

14     zone of responsibility even more vulnerable."

15             Sir, I put it to you that contrary to your statement that, in

16     fact, you had already sent 100 troops to the Herzegovina Corps by the

17     17th of August.

18        A.   Well, yes, that's what I said.  Earlier on, the 23rd, 24th.  So I

19     sent them earlier to the Herzegovina Corps, August, before the situation

20     in Markale took place, and that is what I reported too.

21        Q.   Is it correct that this part of your report makes no reference to

22     the sending of a mortar battery?  It simply states 100 troops were

23     engaged on the Trebinje axis.

24        A.   Yes.  But the commander on the Trebinje axis was Commander Kojic,

25     my deputy, who asked for support.  One hundred men of mine and Srdjan's


Page 23006

 1     from the Sabotage Detachment.  And he asked for resources by way of

 2     support, and the corps didn't give him any, and he said that he would

 3     take his own from Trebevic and that the corps should take care of

 4     supporting me rather than bringing weapons to my positions where the

 5     mortars were.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I see it's break time.  I do have more

 7     questions on the document.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll take a break, and we'll resume - after

 9     the witness has left the courtroom - at 10 minutes past 12.00.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                           --- Recess taken at 11.52 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 12.11 p.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness to enter the

14     courtroom, any news?

15             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, we did have a discussion with the

16     Defence over the course of the break, and I believe it's the agreement

17     between the parties that two pages of Mr. Veljovic's previous Milosevic

18     transcript could be admitted.  These pages being page 5834 and -35 from

19     those proceedings.  The Prosecution is in the process of uploading those

20     materials under 65 ter number 30807a.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Once that's done, please inform the Chamber so that

23     we can decide on admission.

24             Mr. Stojanovic, I take it that you -- Mr. Weber has presented

25     your agreement accurately.


Page 23007

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right.  May I just

 2     confirm.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             Meanwhile, please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of both

 6     versions of the document on the screen.

 7        Q.   Mr. Veljovic, I'd like to direct your attention to the middle of

 8     the page in the B/C/S, the part that states:

 9             "We are unable to form:"

10             In the paragraph right underneath that, there is a discussion of

11     fire support platoons in the infantry companies.  Do you see this section

12     of your report?

13        A.   I see that.

14        Q.   Is it correct that this section makes no reference to the lack of

15     120-millimetre mortars in your brigade?

16        A.   Since the order arrived from the corps to establish a group of

17     people consisting of 106 combatants and that they should be sent to the

18     front line in Trebinje, I formed a group of 60 men and that included

19     support.  These 70 men I sent to Trebinje are from the platoons of

20     mortars of 82 millimetres, 120 millimetres, and also the assault platoon

21     that I had.  And the other men were from the 10th Sabotage --

22        Q.   Sir --

23        A.   -- Detachment of Srdjan Knezevic.

24        Q.   Sir, please listen to my questions, and you -- you've already

25     stated that.


Page 23008

 1             My question was just simply that there's no reference in this

 2     section to the lack of 120-millimetre mortars; is that correct?

 3        A.   Well, we could not establish a battery because six weapons are

 4     needed for that, and we had only two.  And those two were sent with the

 5     82s to --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That wasn't the question.

 7             The question was whether the report explains what you apparently

 8     want to explain to us.  Does it say anything about mortars not being

 9     there?  That's the question.  120 millimetre.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, could you read this out for

11     me, please?  I cannot see it very well.  Can you tell me what is written

12     there?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the report is about the --

14             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, if you want me to read this section --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the combat readiness.  But we did not find

16     anything on the relocation or the removal of mortars, even if

17     temporarily.  And we are not going to read the entire document for you to

18     find out that it isn't there.

19             If there is any relevant portion, Mr. Stojanovic in

20     re-examination, will deal with the matter.

21             Please proceed Mr. Weber.

22             MR. WEBER:

23        Q.   Mr. Veljovic, at the end of this section, immediately above the

24     words "logistical support," your report states that the brigade staffing

25     level is at 89 per cent, and in parentheses, it says it should have 1.732


Page 23009

 1     men and it has 1.568 men.

 2             Is this information accurate?

 3        A.   Accurate.

 4             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 30809 into evidence.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just a second.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This is not 30807a?  No.  It's 08.  Okay.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 30809 will be P6608.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P6608 is admitted.

12             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30808.

13             And if we could please just go up briefly in the English.  Thank

14     you.

15        Q.   Sir, this is a 31 August 1995 listing from the command of the

16     4th Slpbr which lists, according to the first sentence above the listing

17     of the munitions:

18             "Pursuant to your request," then there is a number, "we hereby

19     submit the availability of ammunition and fuel to the brigade."

20             MR. WEBER:  If we could please go to the end of the document.

21        Q.   Is it correct that this document is from you?

22        A.   Yes, it is correct that it is my document.

23             MR. WEBER:  If we could please go back to the previous page.

24        Q.   Under item number 11, it relates to mortar 120 mm M 75, and then

25     going across it says "arms availability," and says 13.


Page 23010

 1             Sir, I put it to you that even after you sent men to Trebinje

 2     that you had 120 -- that you had at least 13 120-millimetre mortars

 3     available to you in your brigade.

 4        A.   It is correct that I had 13 120-millimetre pieces; two in

 5     Trebevic, six at the Nisic plateau, which is 50 kilometres away from

 6     Sarajevo; and the rest of the mortars were in the direction of Gorazde.

 7     I couldn't have taken anything from the Igman and Podrinje Battalions in

 8     order to have more mortars, and I also included on this list the number

 9     of mortars which went to Trebinje.  They, too, belonged to my unit, and

10     they were supposed to return eventually.

11             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution would tender this

12     document into evidence.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 30808 will be P6609.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

16             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I'd like to report that the two

17     transcript pages have now been uploaded.  I know Mr. Stojanovic still

18     needs time.  But with that, the Prosecution has no further questions.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

20             Madam Registrar, could you please repeat the number under which

21     now the two pages are uploaded and assign a number to them so that they

22     can be admitted.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the two pages have been uploaded

24     under 30807a, and they receive number P60 -- 6610.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And this document is admitted into evidence.


Page 23011

 1             Mr. Stojanovic, usually transcript pages are not translated.  If

 2     there would be any specific need to have them translated here, but I

 3     would suggest to you that since the main purpose is to find out what is

 4     not on those pages, that perhaps exceptionally we could do without.  But

 5     we would like to hear from you if you take a different position.

 6             Then, Mr. Veljovic, if Mr. Stojanovic has any further questions

 7     for you, he'll re-examine you now.

 8             Mr. Stojanovic -- but perhaps I -- before I give you an

 9     opportunity to do that, we have looked at the combat readiness, we have

10     looked at a document about availability of ammunition and fuel, all in

11     order to establish whether the mortars were relocated, were sent

12     elsewhere in August 1995, yes or no.

13             Now, the orders, as you said, were ordered to send them to the

14     Trebinje front, were they in writing or ...

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a corps command, which

16     was oral, because the corps could not support assets.  Then they said

17     that they could provide corps support for our battalion from their

18     positions and that our mortars go to the Trebinje theater.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The only thing I would like to know is whether there

20     is any written order saying, "You move your mortars to Trebinje" or

21     "to" -- whether there were any written orders either to the -- going down

22     to the mortar crews who would transport them, or orders coming from the

23     higher level?  Because I do understand that they were -- they were sent

24     to Trebinje to assist the Herzegovina Corps, which is another corps,

25     isn't it?


Page 23012

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But now any written trace of those orders, either

 3     coming down from the corps level or between the two corps or being sent

 4     down to the levels where it had to be executed?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course there was a corps order

 6     to assign a number of personnel to Trebinje.  They also stipulated who

 7     was to be commander.  It was my Chief of Staff, Major Gojic, to accompany

 8     the men.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was that in writing?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, 100 per cent.  Cedo Sladoje

11     was the commander at the time, and his deputy was the -- was Lizdek,

12     Vlado, who was the commander of the 1st Romanija Brigade, given the fact

13     that Milosevic underwent an operation at the time.  Since he had been

14     operated on, someone else had to be appointed as acting Chief of Staff by

15     the Main Staff commander.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Did it say anything about the equipment to be taken,

17     mortars?  You earlier told us that you do not easily move a mortar from

18     one place to another.  Was there any mentioning of that in those orders?

19     Or that order?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  That had not been ordered.  It

21     was said that units needed corps artillery support, but the corps was in

22     no position to do so.

23             Given that Radomir was in command of the Trebevic Battalion, it

24     was ordered that he would take the assets to the Trebevic theater of war.

25     He took our assets, and Cedo said, "Well, you don't need them anyway


Page 23013

 1     because we can give support to your unit at any point in time from Borije

 2     from our positions."

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Stop, stop --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are both written and oral

 5     orders in existence.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any written order which specifically deals

 7     with the transfer of the mortars, the 120-millimetre mortars, to the

 8     Trebinje front in order to assist the Herzegovina Corps?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so.  I think there must be

10     a corps order.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because that would be logical, you would say.

12     You wouldn't do that without having a corps order.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The parties --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commander could also issue an

16     oral order saying, "Give him those assets, and I will provide support for

17     you instead."

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The parties are invited, to the extent possible, to

19     find any written trace of such a transfer of mortar equipment.

20             Then, Mr. Stojanovic, any further questions for the witness?

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just two things

22     before I put my first question.

23             Line 19, page 53 of the temporary transcript, the witness

24     mentioned a name of the person who assumed the duty of commanding the

25     unit.  However, we only have the last name recorded incorrectly.  I can


Page 23014

 1     repeat the first and last name, but perhaps it's better for the witness

 2     to say so, so that we know the name of his Chief of Staff who went to

 3     Trebinje.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Radomir Kojic.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Before Mr. Stojanovic

 6     begins with his questions, the interpreter kindly asks that the pauses

 7     between questions and answers be strictly observed, given the witness's

 8     speed.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, your special attention is requested

10     to take a break after the answer of the witness because the witness is

11     speaking at such a speed that the interpreters really need time and that

12     you, therefore, should wait a moment before you put your next question to

13     the witness.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             Can we please have -- actually, while this document is still

17     before us, Your Honour, I have one question for the witness.

18                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Veljovic, you see the document before you

20     dated the 31st of August, 1995.

21        A.   I see.

22        Q.   In item 11, you inform the command of the SRK that in your

23     brigade there is a total of 13 120-millimetre pieces.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Did the figure of 13 include the two pieces sent to the Trebinje


Page 23015

 1     theater of war?

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't hear the

 3     witness's answer.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, one second.

 5             Witness, could you also have a small pause between question and

 6     answer because the interpreters couldn't hear your answer.

 7             Could you answer the question again, whether those two sent to

 8     Trebinje were included in the 13 listed here.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they were included, given the

10     fact that the unit was supposed to return to its original unit.  I had to

11     have them included in the report.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you continue, Mr. Stojanovic, may I ask

13     for another clarification.

14             You asked for the full name of the deputy, and the witness said

15     Radomir Kojic, as it is recorded.  Before that, he said it was

16     Major Gojic.

17             I would like to ask the witness which of the two names is

18     correct:  Kojic or Gojic?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kojic, with a K.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

21             Mr. Stojanovic.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And the one question you said you had for the

23     witness, Mr. Stojanovic, was answered already by him in -- on page 51,

24     line -- I think it's 19.

25             "And I also included on the list the number of mortars which was


Page 23016

 1     sent to Trebinje."

 2             So that question had been answered.  You asked it again, you got

 3     the same answer.  You had one question, you said, to the witness, but

 4     I'll remind you, perhaps after the third or the fourth, that you had only

 5     one.

 6             Please proceed.  Well, we live in the reality that one question

 7     sometimes amounts to two or three, or sometimes even four, and I'll

 8     remind you about that later.  But this one question was superfluous.

 9             Please now a relevant question.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

11             Can we have in e-court document P6604, page 2.

12        Q.   Mr. Veljovic, the second paragraph of item 5 reads:

13             "Two AB launchers to be prepared" --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic --

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   -- "for action against the elevation" --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We have to move to the next page.  We are there now.

18     Please, let me just see what you read.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is the date?

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we go back to page 1 in the

21     B/C/S.

22        Q.   In the heading of the document, we see that the date is the 10th

23     of August 1994.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us now go back to page 2

25     again.


Page 23017

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not with the corps at the

 2     time.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   My question is this:  Regardless of the fact that you were not

 5     with the corps at the time, do you have any knowledge about whether there

 6     was any use of air bombs against the features mentioned therein?

 7        A.   I have no such knowledge.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Given the fact that you are a reserve officer, did

 9     you ever receive any specialist training in ballistics?

10        A.   No.  But I did command a mortar platoon with 82-millimetres which

11     used as a part of the battalion artillery support group.  That was back

12     in 1983.

13        Q.   During the war, did you at any point in time have any direct

14     contact with the preparation and manufacturer of modified air bombs?

15        A.   No, none whatsoever.  I am not an expert, and I did not work with

16     metal.

17        Q.   Do you have any knowledge about the approximate range of modified

18     air bombs?

19        A.   Well, I may have picked it up along the way, but I'm not sure.  I

20     have never read the rules.  I don't know what the range is.  Perhaps up

21     to 5 kilometres.  That's what I heard.

22        Q.   Given the extent of your knowledge, can you tell us what happens

23     if one of the rocket engines mounted on an air bomb fails to ignite?

24        A.   There is not any significant range to speak of, and of course it

25     would be diverted to the side of the engine which did not start.


Page 23018

 1        Q.   Do you know whether the repair institute in Hadzici, given the

 2     fact that was a multi-purpose production factory, produced or

 3     manufactured launchers on the basis of stands otherwise used for

 4     artillery?

 5        A.   I don't know that.

 6        Q.   Did you know that the Grad rockets do have their own tables of

 7     firing?

 8        A.   I'm not aware of that.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell the Court whether, in the SRK, there were

10     multiple rocket launchers such as the Oganj?

11        A.   Yes, in the mixed artillery regiment they did have such

12     launchers, although I don't know what kind they were.  They may have had

13     the Oganj or the Plamen.  Bartula also had some mounted on a vehicle, but

14     I'm not privy to that.

15        Q.   Is it a very efficient and lethal asset?

16        A.   It is extremely lethal.

17             MR. WEBER:  Objection.  It's leading.  Objection, leading.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  What was the objection?  Leading.

19             Mr. Stojanovic, could you please refrain from leading.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will rephrase, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Please tell the Court, to the extent of your knowledge, what kind

22     of assets it is and what are its possibilities?

23        A.   Its possibilities are enormous.  It can cover a very large area

24     with its fire-power.  It used to be produced in our multi-purpose

25     production factories, including all the tests it had to undergo.  It


Page 23019

 1     included the multiple rocket-launchers of Oganj, Plamen, and Orkan.

 2     However, I'm not familiar with any technical details in terms of firing,

 3     use, et cetera.  I just know they can cover a very wide area and are

 4     particularly lethal when it comes to infantry.

 5        Q.   Were such assets used at any point in time on the military

 6     targets in the city of Sarajevo?

 7        A.   I don't know.  As far as I know, they were not used since 1993,

 8     when they were excluded.  In order for anyone to use such weapons,

 9     UNPROFOR must have been notified.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Veljovic, for your answers and for your

11     assistance.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for

13     this witness, Your Honour.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

16             At the same time, for the Chamber to fully understand the last

17     portion of your examination, we are a bit lost about how details of other

18     armament would shed any light on the air bombs issue.  But perhaps you

19     can explain us after the witness has left the courtroom because we are --

20             And I have one other question for you, which is:  These locations

21     mentioned as where the air bombs should be directed at when on standby,

22     the Chamber has not heard what kind of positions they are.

23             The witness explained to us that it was just wasteland, nothing

24     there, and the Chamber would like to ask the parties to see whether they

25     can agree on, first of all, where it is, and if it's really empty space


Page 23020

 1     there, inaccessible, if you would agree on that, the Chamber would like

 2     to know that.  If you do not agree on it, the Chamber would like to agree

 3     as well.  Or if you want to present further evidence on the type of

 4     terrain which is meant in this document.

 5             No further questions, Mr. Weber?

 6             MR. WEBER:  No, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Veljovic, this concludes your testimony.

 8     I would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for

 9     having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and

10     by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well, Mr. President,

12     and thank you, Judges, as well as everyone else in the courtroom.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

16             MR. IVETIC:  We are, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, your next witness is?

18             MR. IVETIC:  Mr. Radojcic, Vladimir.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could the witness be escorted into the

20     courtroom.

21             Mr. Groome.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, as a preliminary matter with this

23     witness, it is the Prosecution's position that he probably should receive

24     a warning under 90(E).  He received it in the Karadzic case.  There is an

25     extensive rules of the road file regarding him, and he does acknowledge


Page 23021

 1     that he issued the order to fire the air bomb into Hrasnica which is G10

 2     in this indictment.  So I think, given everything, it is -- it would be

 3     appropriate that he be given that warning.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Lukic requested the Defence [sic] not to

 5     repeat these kind of things.  At the same time, Mr. Lukic, you are the

 6     one who has asked for certain orders, which makes it a bit surprising

 7     that you objected so much to what -- what the Prosecution did.  We leave

 8     it in your hands as always.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  As for this particular witness, I leave it in the

10     hands of Mr. Ivetic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  He's more familiar with that case.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             MR. IVETIC:  I would suggest, Your Honours, I have no objection

15     to the 90(E) warning being given at the beginning of the witness's

16     evidence.  That was what was done in the Karadzic case.  And I --

17     although I don't think that the answers and the questions that I'm going

18     through will raise anything, it's better to perhaps cover the whole ambit

19     of possible testimony.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we'll take care of that.

21             Good morning -- good afternoon, yes, I'm corrected by my

22     colleagues.

23             Mr. Radojcic, before you give evidence, the Rules require that

24     you make a solemn declaration.  The text is handed out to you.  May I

25     invite you to make that solemn declaration.


Page 23022

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 2     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3                           WITNESS:  VLADIMIR RADOJCIC

 4                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Radojcic, before you'll be examined, I would

 8     like to bring the following to your attention.

 9             You as a witness, you may object to answer any question if the

10     answer to that question might tend to incriminate yourself.  Although we

11     have the possibility to compel you to answer that question, that also

12     would have certain consequences as to whether then your answer could be

13     used in a subsequent prosecution against yourself for any offence.  But

14     so if at any time you think that a truthful answer is at risk to

15     incriminate yourself, you may ask not to be obliged to answer that

16     question.

17             Is that clear to you?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is clear to me, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Then you'll first be examined now by

20     Mr. Ivetic.  You find him to your left.  Mr. Ivetic is a member of the

21     Defence team of Mr. Mladic.

22             Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

25        Q.   Good day, sir.


Page 23023

 1        A.   Good day.

 2        Q.   Could you please first state your name for the record.

 3        A.   My name is Vladimir Radojcic.

 4        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  I would like to first call up 65 ter number 1D01625.

 6     And with the assistance of the usher, I also have a hard copy that should

 7     be shown to the Prosecution first and given to the witness for ease of

 8     going through the same.

 9        Q.   And, sir, if I can direct your attention to the signature that

10     appears on the first page of the original, can you confirm for us if that

11     is your signature that appears there?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Have you had the opportunity to review this statement in the

14     Serbian language during proofing subsequent to having signed the same?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And do you have some corrections to the statement which you told

17     me about in proofing?

18        A.   Well, I made the first correction on the front page because my

19     date of birth has been misrecorded.  Later on, while reading the

20     statement, I noticed two other minor mistakes that do not affect my

21     statement significantly.

22        Q.   We'll take them each in turn.

23             MR. IVETIC:  If we could first turn to page 11 in the English and

24     page 14 in the Serbian, and it'll -- it'll leak on to the top of page 15.

25     And I think the text that we're talking about is at the top of page 15 in


Page 23024

 1     relation to paragraph 55.

 2        Q.   Sir, is the average deviation for an aerial bomb accurately

 3     stated in this paragraph as being 10 to 1.000 metres?

 4        A.   In the Serbian version of this statement of mine, it is correct;

 5     that is to say, it was from 10 metres to 1.000 metres.

 6        Q.   Let me repeat what's been translated:  Is it correct to say that

 7     the deviation was from 10 metres to 1.000 metres?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Could you please state what the deviation for an aerial bomb

10     should be, according to your information.

11        A.   This deviation should be interpreted in the following way:  The

12     deviation was, on average, 10 metres for 1.000 metres, a distance of

13     1.000 metres.

14        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, sir.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Now I'd like to turn to paragraph 63 which is on

16     page 12 in the English and page 16 in the Serbian.

17        Q.   And is there anything that needs to be corrected in this

18     paragraph, paragraph 63?  And I would direct your attention to the

19     English version of the same, so you can compare the information contained

20     in the English and the Serbian.

21        A.   In the Serbian version, the information is correct, that my wife

22     worked until the 2nd of May, 1992.  In the English version, it is 1993.

23        Q.   In the translation we received, we heard "2nd of May, 1992."  Is

24     that what, in fact, you meant?

25        A.   Yes.


Page 23025

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Now if we could turn to paragraph 110, which is on

 2     page 18 in the English and page 24 in the Serbian.

 3        Q.   And, again, this would be at paragraph 110.

 4             Do you have any corrections to make to any of the information or

 5     dates contained in this paragraph?

 6        A.   It is the 26th of June, 1995.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8        A.   As far as I can see, the date is the same in the English version

 9     and in the Serbian version.

10        Q.   And is that date accurate, according to your recollection?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Okay.  Now, apart from the changes or clarifications that we've

13     gone through, do you affirm that everything in your statement is accurate

14     to the best of your knowledge?

15        A.   I can confirm that.

16        Q.   And if I were to ask you the same questions today about the same

17     topics as contained in your statement, would your answers be the same, in

18     substance?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And now that you have taken the solemn declaration, would those

21     answers as contained in this statement be truthful?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, at this time, I would move to admit

24     1D01625 as the next available Defence exhibit.

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Prosecution has no objection.


Page 23026

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D01625 receives number D535.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 6             At this time, Your Honours, I would like to read a public summary

 7     of the statement, the purposes of which have been explained to the

 8     witness.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed as you suggest.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Vladimir Radojcic was a colonel in the VRS, and he

11     was commander of the 1st Infantry Ilidza Brigade of the Sarajevo Romanija

12     Corps from January 1993 through the end of the war.  He was a

13     professional army officer, but his brigade had a serious manpower

14     problem, and only one other officer, the artillery commander, had been a

15     professional army officer prior to the war.  This lack of professional

16     officers was similar in other brigades.

17             Colonel Radojcic was aware of the formation of the Green Berets

18     on the Muslim side as an armed formation before the war.  These units

19     were armed with new equipment and weapons.

20             Colonel Radojcic often complained to the UN that the ABiH was

21     using civilian facilities for military activities.  Before opening fire

22     on a civilian area used by the ABiH, the VRS would warn the UN to warn

23     the other side.  The territory of his brigade was fired upon from the

24     Dobrinja hospital, among other civilian areas being used by the ABiH.

25             The strategy of the SRK was to protect civilian villages and


Page 23027

 1     prevent a breakthrough of the ABiH 1st Corps situated in Sarajevo.  The

 2     Ilidza Brigade undertook primarily defensive operations toward that

 3     strategy.  The only offensive operations were to improve tactical

 4     positions.  His brigade opened fire at the first line of the front and

 5     targeted the depth of Sarajevo only when they had reliable information

 6     that combat elements of the ABiH were located there.

 7             The VRS Main Staff and Sarajevo Romanija Corps provided manuals

 8     and ordered that they be distributed to subordinates, detailing the laws

 9     of war and calling for adherence to the same.  His superiors in the corps

10     and the Main Staff never ordered the brigade to attack civilians or

11     civilian transportation lines in Sarajevo.

12             The VRS Main Staff gave explicit orders to eliminate

13     paramilitaries from the area, and the brigade undertook to try and

14     implement those orders.

15             The issue of ammunition became a problem, such that the superior

16     commands issued orders to save ammunition and only fire upon the enemy

17     when absolutely necessary.  This ammunition problem led to the use of

18     so-called modified aerial bombs, which were only used after they were

19     tested and their precision ascertained.  The witness knows the ABiH also

20     used modified aerial bombs, including naval bombs.

21             The witness testified about humanitarian aid being allowed to

22     pass, even though it was known that the ABiH in Sarajevo misappropriated

23     the same and sold it on the black market.  He is aware of instances where

24     UN and UNPROFOR vehicles were smuggling weapons and munitions to the ABiH

25     in Sarajevo.


Page 23028

 1             As to Scheduled Incident G10, Colonel Radojcic states that this

 2     was fired at a legitimate military target.

 3             As to Scheduled Incident G6, Colonel Radojcic states that his

 4     forces did not have mortars at the institute for the blind, and he issued

 5     no orders to fire upon Klare Cetkin Street.

 6             As to Incidents G13 and G15, Colonel Radojcic never instructed or

 7     ordered those locations to be attacked, nor received reports of them

 8     being struck by his forces.

 9             And that, Your Honours, completes the summary of the witness's

10     statement.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, at this time, I would move to admit the

13     associated exhibits that are contained in the statement which have not

14     been already introduced into evidence.  By my tally, there are 61 such

15     exhibits that do not already have exhibit numbers.  And I could either

16     give a list now or perhaps sit with Mr. Groome at the break and show him

17     my list to save -- to be more efficient.  I'm at Your Honours' guidance.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I take it that Mr. Groome has the list.  And

19     what I would like to know is whether there are any objections against any

20     of those documents so that we could perhaps deal with the non-objected

21     ones, and then we'll further hear from you.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I was going to suggest that we do this

23     at the end of the witness's testimony.  I have a number of questions

24     about some of them, and I believe there is some confusion which I will

25     bring out during my cross-examination a bit.  Depending on the answers, I


Page 23029

 1     will be either objecting or not objecting to the admission of some of

 2     these.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  That's fine.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we leave the associated exhibits for a

 5     while and revisit the issue at the end of the testimony of the witness.

 6             Any questions for the witness, Mr. --

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Ivetic?

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Colonel, I would like to ask you some follow-up questions.

12             First, I would like to take a look at what you say in paragraph 7

13     of your statement, which has now been identified as Exhibit D535.

14             MR. IVETIC:  And that would be page 3 in both language versions.

15        Q.   Here you say that the strategy of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps was

16     to utilise a "decisive defence."

17             What precisely do you mean by the terminology "decisive defence"?

18        A.   Blocking defence, "odsudna odbrana," in military terminology

19     means the defence of certain zones, areas, even if a maximum sacrifice is

20     to be made in order to defend that territory.

21        Q.   Now, sir, when you say "even if a maximum sacrifice is to be

22     made," what does that relate to?

23        A.   First of all, I mean one's own losses in this case.  When there

24     is this kind of defence, there is no going back.  This is the situation

25     that the Ilidza Brigade was in because our families were behind our


Page 23030

 1     backs.  That is why this defence is called that.

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, in this paragraph you state that your

 3     objective was to block the BH Army 1st Corps in the city.  Was it also

 4     part of your objective to blockade civilians in the city of Sarajevo

 5     itself?

 6        A.   No.  In all the orders that I received from the superior

 7     commands, from the Main Staffs, it was always stated explicitly that our

 8     aim is to blockade the 1st Corps of the BH Army because it was so

 9     numerous that they could seriously threaten stability in other areas.

10             As for the total blockade of Sarajevo, there was no mention of

11     any such thing.  On the contrary, we were always co-operative, and we

12     always allowed civilians to leave.  All our politicians, all our military

13     leaders in negotiations always included that possibility as well; that is

14     to say, allowing civilians to leave Sarajevo freely and come back to

15     Sarajevo freely.

16             However, the other side, in this case the 1st Corps of the BH

17     Army, did not allow that.  Or they set certain conditions that we did not

18     find acceptable.  That is to say, throughout the war, this was a pending

19     issue, and we were always co-operative.  And our co-operation with

20     UNPROFOR units, and they were the mainstays of these negotiations, it was

21     always there.

22        Q.   How would you describe your own position, the position of your

23     brigade vis-ā-vis the ABiH forces that you were in contact with?

24        A.   The 1st Ilidza Infantry Brigade had combat contact with three

25     brigades on the other side:  The 102nd Brigade -- first, it was called


Page 23031

 1     the 2nd Brigade, but in the second stage of the war, it was renamed the

 2     102nd Brigade, and it was in the inner ring of defence of the Brigade;

 3     then the 155th Brigade that was in the area of Dobrinja; and the

 4     104th Brigade from Butmir near the runway of Sarajevo airport towards

 5     Hrasnica.  It got to Igman and the source of the Bosna River.  And that

 6     was where the area of responsibility of my brigade ended.  And there were

 7     three, therefore, brigades on the other side.

 8             When I was looking at the balance of power between the two, it

 9     was 3:1 in their favour.  Even 5:1 in their favour.  So it was

10     exceptionally difficult, an exceptionally difficult position, especially

11     if you take into account the actual terrain that also worked in favour of

12     our opposing side.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to now ask you about paragraph 5 of your

14     statement, which is found in page 4 in the English and page 5 in the

15     Serbian.

16             Here you describe certain brochures explaining the provisions of

17     international war and humanitarian laws distributed to subordinates.  Can

18     you describe to us, or tell us in more detail, about what kind of

19     material was contained in these brochures?

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You said, Mr. Ivetic, paragraph 5.  I think

21     you --

22             MR. IVETIC:  15, I apologise.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

24             MR. IVETIC:  It should be page 5 in the Serbian, that's perhaps

25     where I misspoke.


Page 23032

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can give the following answer in

 2     response to your question.

 3             In these brochures, international law of war was explained and

 4     also what the units that are in conflict are supposed to do in order to

 5     observe that.  Specific cases were referred to in terms of what

 6     violations of the law of war are.  Literally, every soldier of the

 7     Ilidza Brigade and of the other forces of the 1st Corps was fully made

 8     aware, in detail, of these provisions of international law of war.

 9             If we take into account that in every order we got from

10     General Mladic and from General Galic and General Milosevic, this was

11     always underlined:  The need to observe international law of war.

12        Q.   Turning to the brochures just for a moment, could you describe

13     the level of sophistication of the language used in the brochures?

14        A.   Well we, the officers, did our best to explain this to soldiers

15     at our meetings.  I told commanders of units within the brigade about

16     this and then they would convey that to each and every soldier.  We were

17     even getting to be boring, if I can put it that way, with all of that.

18     People were even saying enough with this international law of war.  Why

19     do you tell the other side about this, too, so that they start observing

20     it a bit as well.

21        Q.   You mentioned meetings.  Could you tell us about the frequency of

22     those meetings.

23        A.   Well, most often I had briefings with my subordinate commanders

24     once a week concerning problems in the brigade and they in their units.

25     At the end of these meetings, we would adopt specific conclusions and


Page 23033

 1     tasks related to resolving these problems.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I believe we're at the time for the

 4     break.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We are.  Could you give us an indication as to how

 6     much time you would still need?

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  I anticipate finishing in

 8     approximately 25 to 30 minutes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  But I think your initial claim was 30 minutes, so --

10             MR. IVETIC:  It was.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- we are after half an hour now.  Well,

12     including -- well, not entirely half an hour, but including the

13     attestations, et cetera, which is always understood to be --

14             MR. IVETIC:  I have about 23 or 24 minutes -- 24 questions left,

15     Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll see how much time that takes.

17             We ask the usher to escort the witness out of the courtroom.

18             We'd like to see you back after the break.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And we'll resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.

21             And then you would be encouraged, Mr. Ivetic, to see whether you

22     could finish by 2.00, let's say, that's almost the entire amount of time

23     you asked for in total.

24             So we take a break.

25                           --- Recess taken at 1.14 p.m.


Page 23034

 1                           --- On resuming at 1.35 p.m.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 3             Mr. Mladic is supposed not to speak aloud, not now, not at any

 4     time.

 5             Apart from that, I would like to previously address the parties

 6     on the following matter.  Late September, two days in early October of

 7     this year, in total five days, we'll have to manoeuvre in such a way that

 8     the use of the courtrooms is in line with the staffing facilities, at

 9     least during the hearing of certain appeals.  We always made an effort to

10     secure that we would sit in the morning and would continue to sit in the

11     morning because that was the expressed wish of the Defence.  It may be

12     that during those five days, in order to guarantee that we sit in the

13     morning, we would have to start at 9.00.  That's half an hour earlier

14     than we usually do.  It would be limited to those days only.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  If there is strong opposition to that, and the

17     Chamber is inclined, rather, to stick to the morning sessions rather than

18     to start at 9.30 or 9.00, the Chamber would like to hear without delay.

19             Mr. Ivetic, please continue your examination.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, sir.

21        Q.   Colonel, now I would like to ask you about the procedure your

22     brigade would follow when targeting enemy sites with mortar or artillery.

23             First, could you tell me how targets on the enemy side were

24     selected and identified?

25        A.   [No interpretation].


Page 23035

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I'm not getting a translation.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Just a minute.  There seems to be a -- there seems

 3     to be a problem with the audio.

 4             Mr. Mladic, does it function now again or not yet?  Yes, I see

 5     thumbs-up, which means we can proceed.  Just a second.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the --

 7             MR. IVETIC:

 8        Q.   Could you start from the beginning so we could get the complete

 9     answer.

10        A.   In the brigade's operative room, there was a map which was used

11     by the chief of artillery.  All the targets where depicted on the map,

12     those that were of some interest for the brigade, as well as the targets

13     they'd receive from the corps command.  They bore numbers, and they

14     represented the targets on which we opened fire when needed.

15             The corps command was in charge of some targets, and if they were

16     in our area of responsibility -- responsibility --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- we did not open artillery fire

19     on those targets because there was no need to do that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I invite you to slow down so that nothing of

21     what you say will be lost.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

24        Q.   Did you finish your question -- answer, sir?

25        A.   I wanted to add that those targets, which were marked on our map


Page 23036

 1     but were the responsibility of the corps artillery, were fired upon by

 2     the corps artillery, whereas the brigade artillery, the company

 3     artillery, and the battalion artilleries opened fire as needed.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Did your brigade heavy weapons have optical visibility

 5     with the targets on the other side?

 6        A.   When we selected firing positions for the brigade firing group, I

 7     was guided by the following motive:  Artillery had to be placed in such

 8     positions and deployed in such a way that they had optical visibility

 9     with the targets of my artillery.  Since we also had laser gauges of a

10     distance, the activity of our artillery tools was very precise.

11        Q.   Could you explain what you mean by "laser gauges of distance."

12        A.   I'm talking about a device using laser beams in order to measure

13     the exact distance to the target.  With that device, errors are really

14     minimum, and they are measured in centimetres.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to look at paragraph 33 of your statement.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Found on page 7 in the English and page 10 in the

17     Serbian.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, could I ask one clarifying question in

19     relation to the previous answer.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Of course, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You said:  "... errors are really minimum, and they

22     are measured in centimetres."

23             You mean errors in measuring the distance or any other error?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean distances, exclusively

25     distances.


Page 23037

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No, then I understood you well.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Sir, in this paragraph, paragraph 33, you say that you would

 5     alert the other side when firing at military targets of the ABiH in

 6     civilian zones through the UN.  Could you describe how this was

 7     accomplished.

 8        A.   In my brigade's zone of responsibility, there were military

 9     observers, and there were also UNPROFOR members.  Throughout the war, the

10     French Foreign Legion members were deployed there, as well as members of

11     the Ukraine Battalion.  There was a liaison officer in each of our

12     brigades.  With their help, we would very quickly get in contact with

13     them, and whenever there was a violation of a truce or some other

14     violation, we would inform them.

15             When we did that, they would come to the scene to see what had

16     happened, and then they would use their communications means in order to

17     alert their colleagues on the other side who would then make sure that

18     the offending activity was stopped.

19        Q.   Was it always the case that the offending activity was stopped?

20        A.   No, not always.  Sometimes their fire continued, and then upon

21     receiving approval from the superior command we would respond to that

22     fire and neutralise their activity in that way.

23        Q.   When firing upon enemy targets, did your brigade heavy weapons

24     utilise direct or indirect mode of fire?

25        A.   In my previous answer, I said that when we selected the positions


Page 23038

 1     of deployment of our artillery group, we made sure that they are deployed

 2     in such a place where they could open direct fire on the enemy.  This is

 3     how we ensured better precision, much better than if we were to open

 4     indirect mode of fire through our officers on the observation posts.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Next I would like to move to so-called modified

 6     aerial bombs.

 7             First, can you tell us your knowledge of what these bombs were?

 8        A.   First of all, I could say that the name itself, a modified aerial

 9     bomb, is not adequate.  It is not adequate because we never made any

10     modifications on the air bomb.

11             Fuel contact bombs that we used were the kind of bombs that were

12     once used by the JNA airforce.  The only thing that we changed was the

13     mode of use; i.e., the mode of launching such bombs.  Based on my

14     experience, I can tell you that it was made much more precise in that way

15     than if it was used from the air.

16        Q.   Can you tell us what steps your brigade undertook to minimise the

17     deviations in the aerial bombs when launched?

18        A.   I can say that my brigade, once it received launchers and the

19     appropriate components to manufacturer such bombs, not aerial bombs but

20     just the modifications, as you call them, the first thing we did was to

21     choose an adequate position.  The positions that we chose also allowed us

22     to have optical visibility with the target.

23             The second thing that we bore in mind was for such bombs to be

24     launched in favorable weather conditions, when it was not foggy, when it

25     was not very windy, in order to increase the precision of those bombs.


Page 23039

 1     You have to know that such bombs were launched over our own heads.  Any -

 2     even marginal - errors could have cost us dearly.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just have a clarification question.

 4             Sir, you said at page 79, line 14:

 5             "Based on my experience, I can tell you that it was made much

 6     more precise in that way than if it was used from the air."

 7             Can you explain to us how it operates when it's from the air and

 8     how it operates from the way you used it and show us why it is more

 9     precise?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I can explain.

11             When a pilot launches an aerial bomb, the precision of those

12     classical bombs without any guidance system is contingent upon the

13     capability of such a pilot to do a timely launch.  In practice, it

14     happened that it took several attempts to hit the target that was

15     selected.

16             On the other hand, we had launchers and we had optical visibility

17     with the target.  We could measure the distance very precisely, and

18     that's how we achieved a higher level of precision.  I am speaking from

19     experience.  I launched three aerial bombs myself; i.e., my brigade did.

20     So what I'm telling you is based on that experience.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

22             MR. IVETIC:

23        Q.   Sir, were there firing tables for the aerial bomb launcher?

24        A.   Of course.  We received launchers and firing tables which were

25     temporary firing tables for aerial bombs.  On those firing tables, you


Page 23040

 1     could see the angles and the distances, so the crew could put in precise

 2     distances into their device.  Everything else would have been

 3     improvisation.  Those temporary firing tables were glued to the launcher

 4     very visible to the eye of the crew, and we did not have any problem with

 5     that.

 6        Q.   Did you ascertain if the launchers for the modified aerial bombs

 7     had been tested?

 8        A.   Of course.  Not a single piece of armament or weaponry that is

 9     introduced into a military is introduced without previously being tested

10     by the manufacturer.  In this specific case, as far as I know, that

11     testing was done at Kalinovik, which is an old artillery shooting range

12     intended for such testings.  And the firing tables we received were based

13     and crafted based upon those testings.

14        Q.   In relation to the three modified aerial bombs that you said your

15     brigade launched, could you give us some more details about the targets

16     they were launched at and your appraisals of their accuracy.

17        A.   When we were equipped with the aerial bomb launcher, before we

18     launched our first bomb on the enemy, I wanted to test its efficiency and

19     precision.  That's why I issued an order that the first target for us

20     would be the cooler plant near Stup.

21             Let me explain.  This is a concrete -- reinforced concrete

22     facility.  It was 70 by 70 metres large, and its height was about 70

23     metres as well.  Throughout the entire war, that facility was a place

24     from which sniper fire was opened at us by the enemy.  In order to

25     complete the first launch, I moved our soldiers from the first line to


Page 23041

 1     the left and to the right, and we had a direct hit of the cooler plant.

 2     We didn't want the first bomb to overfly the cooler plant.  That's why I

 3     asked the crew of the launcher to decrease the elevation so that we made

 4     sure that it wouldn't overfly.

 5             When we launched that aerial bomb, because the elevation was

 6     short, it was not adequate, the bomb actually did not hit the target

 7     itself.  It fell short, some hundred metres in front of the target.  It

 8     fell at -- on its side and it slid like a bobsleigh.  That was our first

 9     launch.  It was not successful, but it didn't make me unhappy because I

10     could see how it acted.

11             The second bomb was launched on the 28th July, 1995 on the

12     television building of Sarajevo.  Throughout the war, it was the

13     television of the 1st Corps of the BiH Army.  The darkest kind of

14     propaganda was launched from there against my people.  When I received --

15     when I received approval from my superior command, I personally assisted

16     the launch of that aerial bomb.  I was at the observation post, and I saw

17     that the aerial bomb hit the building of the radio television, and that

18     made me very happy.

19             The third aerial bomb was launched on the Aleksa Santic school in

20     Hrasnica.  It was school only by name.  However, throughout the war it

21     housed the centre for the training of special units of the 1st Corps of

22     the BiH Army.

23             How did I know that?  On Muslim television, their president,

24     Alija Izetbegovic, was shown visiting the 104th Brigade of the BiH Army,

25     and he also visited that school, and he commended them for successfully


Page 23042

 1     completed education.  Having heard that, when I received my orders from

 2     the superior command, I launched the third aerial bomb, and that was the

 3     only target that we missed but by only 20 metres.

 4             Let me explain.  When an aerial bomb hits the ground, since it is

 5     a contact fuse shell; i.e., it is not intended for targeting troops or

 6     targets in the open space.  It is intended for hitting facilities.  The

 7     crater that it made was 5 metres deep and its diameter was 15 metres,

 8     which only goes to show that most of the kinetic energy of that aerial

 9     bomb was used for its dispersion.

10             So this is the long and short of the story of the aerial bombs

11     that we launched during the war.

12        Q.   Just one more question on the aerial bombs before moving on.

13             The first one bomb -- the first bomb launched at the cooler

14     plant, did it explode when it skid like a bobsled?

15        A.   No, it did not explode.  It remained there.  Even I -- after the

16     Dayton Accords were signed.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you done with this subject, Mr. Ivetic.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, I am.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have a question on that subject.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just a clarification to avoid any

23     misunderstanding.

24             I see on the transcript that you said; that is, page 82, lines 11

25     and 12:


Page 23043

 1             "Throughout the war, the television building was the television

 2     of the 1st Corps of the BH Army."

 3             Was that really what you wanted to say?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is what I meant to say.

 5     90 per cent of their programme was pure propaganda.  We were portrayed as

 6     the biggest criminals.  I believe that then and I still believe --

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  This was not my question.  I wanted

 8     to know if the 1st Corps of the BH Army had its own television.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, their television was Television

10     Sarajevo; i.e., the television of Bosnia Herzegovina.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was the reason why I put this question to

12     you, because you are recorded as having said:  "Throughout the war, this

13     building was the television of the 1st Corps of the BH Army."

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to highlight what they did

15     because they used that television as their own.  That was what I meant to

16     say.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that clarification.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I also have one or more questions for you.

19             You said there were firing tables for the air bombs but they were

20     temporary.  Could you explain what makes a firing table a temporary one?

21             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't receive translation at this moment, but...

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since there was a temporary table

24     of firing, there must have been a permanent one too.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  My question is -- well, that's not necessary.  If


Page 23044

 1     you have a temporary one, there can just be a temporary one.

 2             There -- you do not receive -- yes.

 3             Now how -- from whom did you get a temporary timetable --

 4     timetable.  Firing table?  Who did -- who gave it to you?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We received it from the corps

 6     command, and they, in turn, had received it from the manufacturer.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Manufacturer of what?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The manufacturer of launchers and

 9     the manufacturer of the engines mounted on the air bombs.  They also

10     carried out the testing of those bombs.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Are there any test reports then?  Because we have

12     received some evidence about how the engines were mounted on the air

13     bombs, and we have not received that much evidence on the production of

14     launchers.

15             But could you tell us a bit more in detail what these test

16     reports, what they contained?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rocket launchers were manufactured

18     by us based on the sketches we received from our superior command.  The

19     basis -- or the base was actually a truck with a back that could be

20     lifted up and down.  We used it to mount launchers on top of it.  A bomb

21     would be fitted onto a launcher, and with much electronics, an air bomb

22     would be launched provided a proper angle was chosen in order to reach a

23     certain distance.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand what you need to come to some

25     precision.  But what I asked you is whether there were testing reports.


Page 23045

 1     Because at least there are three parties involved; that is, the producer

 2     of the launcher, the producer of the engines, then I take it the

 3     production of the modified air bomb in such a way that the engines were

 4     attached to the bomb itself.  And then, as a fourth element, how the

 5     launchers were mounted on -- on trucks.  That requires a rather complex

 6     system where testing is not that easily done.

 7             Could you tell us were there testing reports?  Test reports, I

 8     should say.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The engines used to launch air

10     bombs had been tested.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And they had undergone many years

13     of testing.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I interrupt you quite direct.  What I meant to ask

15     you is whether this system, not the specific elements, but whether the

16     system was tested, because I noticed that there are various components

17     which, when putting them together, would perhaps give a totally different

18     result.  If you attach an engine 1 centimetre further to the left or to

19     the right, that might have had a huge impact on the precision of the

20     system as such.

21             So, therefore, I'm wondering - and I'm asking you - whether there

22     were any test reports on the system as functioning composed of these

23     elements?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not carry out testing.  We

25     received bombs already fitted with the engines and that had been done in


Page 23046

 1     the Pretis factory in Vogosca.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not asking you how you received them.  I'm

 3     asking whether there were test reports about the system as such.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly.  But they were not

 5     available to me.  I was a brigade commander.  I didn't need such data.  I

 6     needed firing tables.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You say they were there but they were not available

 8     to you.  How do you know that they did exist?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because there would have been no

10     firing tables without testing.  No weapon is introduced in to -- or put

11     into use without previous testing.  Everything else would be fooling

12     around.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It's logic rather than factual knowledge you are

14     giving us.

15             Now back to the temporary -- the temporary tables, firing tables.

16     You say if there are firing tables, there must be test reports.

17             What made them temporary?  I mean, why after proper testing and

18     the standardised production procedure?  You would just produce the firing

19     tables, I would say, rather than temporary firing tables.

20             Could you explain that?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I certainly can.

22             The entire arsenal of our units - and I mean the artillery and

23     mortars - we had standing firing tables, which were published as manuals,

24     and I had occasion to see one such manual here; thus, they are available

25     to you.


Page 23047

 1             For this kind of assets which, to an extent, was improvised,

 2     there were no standing firing tables, only provisional ones.  It was not

 3     something that was part of the JNA arsenal.  That asset was produced for

 4     one particular use, and our experts relied on air bombs, and with certain

 5     additions, they managed to create a very successful asset that we used to

 6     defend ourselves.

 7             That is why those firing tables were provisional.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  So what I hear you say is that you have no detailed

 9     knowledge about the testing, the procedure; you have no detailed

10     knowledge about the production because it was all fitted already, and how

11     it was fitted, at least, you haven't told us; and that you received

12     firing tables which were more or less improvised.

13             Now this ends up in saying that the position was deviation not

14     more than 10 metres or 10 metres on 1 kilometre trajectory.  Where do you

15     get that from?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I have to say that we

17     didn't improvise.  What I said was that the provisional firing tables

18     were put together after a process of testing.  So it wasn't all

19     improvisation.  That's number one.

20             Number two, I also stated that it was the experience of our

21     brigade that we were very precise and that there was no deviation larger

22     than 10 metres per 1 kilometre.

23             I don't know about the experience of other units, though.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You told us about three launches.  One failure, but

25     there at least you -- you know how it worked.  And then the two others.


Page 23048

 1     Is your assessment of the accuracy, is that based on those two other

 2     launches?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  So it's on the basis of these.  And you didn't

 5     include the third one which failed to hit the target.

 6             Did you include something like what the Chamber heard evidence

 7     about, a launch of such a modified air bomb to be a total failure even

 8     killing people from your own armed forces?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't aware of any such

10     information during the war.  I can only discuss my experience.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Even the first --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If you -- no.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- bomb --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  If you don't know, the answer is you can't tell us.

16             May I remind you that when I -- let me see -- yes.  You said that

17     when I put to you the question about matters being improvised, you said,

18     well, you didn't say that.  May I read to you what is recorded as what

19     you would have said:

20             "For these kind of assets which, to an extent, was improvised,

21     there were no standard firing tables."

22             So when I used the word "improvised," I just repeated your own

23     words.  Unless there is any mistake in translation.  I leave it to that

24     at this moment.

25             Mr. Ivetic.


Page 23049

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.  I --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Judge Moloto also has a question.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Again, let me just make sure that I understood you

 4     clearly.  When you described the precision -- are we together, sir?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  When you describe the precision of your

 7     modified aerial bombs, you said that you used laser and therefore they

 8     are very precise, margin of error 1 centimetre short because the

 9     1 centimetre, well, you clarified that it was measuring a deviation in

10     distance.  And when you talked about targeting the three other targets

11     that you launched, you said one of your bombs fell short by 20 metres.

12             Did I understand you correctly?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the first target we

14     targeted was missed.  Due to low elevation, the bomb undershot and went

15     unexploded.  The second target was the TV building; that was hit.  The

16     third target was the school building, and the bomb overshot, falling into

17     a meadow 20 metres further away, creating a crater 5 metres deep and 15

18     metres wide.  That's what I said.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  I obviously misunderstood you.  I thought

20     you said it fell short.  So it overshot by 20 metres.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So instead of measuring -- getting a deviation of

23     1 centimetre, as you had indicated, it had a deviation of 20 metres.

24             Do I understand that correctly?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You didn't understand me correctly.


Page 23050

 1             I said that the precision of the laser distance measurement is

 2     measured in centimetres and that is one initial element of firing in

 3     order to obtain the precise distance of the target.  If the laser

 4     measurement indicates that it is, say, 250 metres away, the potential

 5     margin of error is a few centimetres.  But it doesn't mean that the air

 6     bomb would behave the same as the laser measurement device because its

 7     trajectory is governed by different principles.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought when you were explaining -- when you

 9     explain that deviation of a centimetres, you were explaining how precise

10     the modified air bomb is better than the one that is carried by a plane.

11     You told us that the one that is carried by the plane, it depends on the

12     capability of the pilot to see exactly where that target is.  But this

13     one was guided by -- it was modified such that it hits the target as you

14     measured it with a laser.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I try to see whether we can come to a proper

16     understanding of your words, because they created apparently some

17     confusion.

18             Would it be true that the measurement of distances with your

19     laser gauge was separate from any firing system but was just used to

20     measure a distance, whereas the variation there would -- or the deviation

21     would be very limited.  Whereas when firing projectiles, that you were

22     facing far more and other circumstances which would allow for deviations

23     which are -- were far in excess of the deviations you would have if you

24     would only measure a distance.  Is that...

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is precisely what I wanted to


Page 23051

 1     say.  A laser range finder determines the distance, but it is only an

 2     initial element of firing.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll be with us for more time, so we'll have ample

 4     opportunity to further explore what exactly you intended to say.  You

 5     see, ballistics are always the core of the interest of this Chamber

 6     because it's an important matter.

 7             Mr. Ivetic, when I encouraged you to finish by 2.00 then, of

 8     course, it was not included that we had so many questions.  How much time

 9     would you still need?

10             MR. IVETIC:  I have approximately seven questions, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Seven questions, yes.  Well, that should be

12     approximately 10 --

13             MR. IVETIC:  10 minutes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to 15 minutes.  Okay.

15             Witness, we'll adjourn for the day.  We would like to see you

16     back tomorrow at 9.30 and -- one second, please.  One second.  Witness.

17     Yes, I'd like to give you further instructions.  That is, that you should

18     not speak or communicate with whomever about your testimony, whether that

19     is testimony you have given today or whether that is testimony which you

20     are still about to give tomorrow and perhaps the day or days after that.

21             You may follow the usher.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,

25     Thursday, the 26th of June at 9.30 in the morning, in this same


Page 23052

 1     courtroom, I.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day of June,

 4                           2014, at 9.30 a.m.

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