140704ED

Page 23446

1 [The witness takes the stand]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Tusevljak.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I would like to remind you that

5 you are still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the

6 beginning of your testimony.

7 WITNESS: SLOBODAN TUSEVLJAK [Resumed]

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin will now -- yes, and that is one. We also

10 do understand that you have brought the document we asked you to bring

11 with you.

12 Perhaps, Mr. Usher, could you already receive that document from

13 the witness so that the Chamber and the parties can have a look at it.

14 Meanwhile, Mr. Shin will continue his cross-examination.

15 Mr. Shin.

16 Cross-examination by Mr. Shin: [Continued]

17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Tusevljak.

18 A. Good morning, Mr. Prosecutor.

19 Q. Now, yesterday when we left off we were discussing the

20 60-millimetre mortars in your company, and we were dealing with

21 paragraph 13 in your Karadzic statement. And I'm going to read it to you

22 in its entirety since we have it only in English.

23 MR. SHIN: Could I please have the document assigned to D540

24 brought up on the screen. And if we could please turn to the second

25 page.

Page 23447

1 Q. We'll wait until it's up. Actually, since it's going to be in

2 translation for you, Mr. Tusevljak, I'll just begin reading it.

3 "When the SRK was formed, my unit was named the 1st Platoon of

4 the 4th Company of the 2nd Battalion of the 1st Smbr, and we held the

5 same positions until the end of the war. We only had one mortar but no

6 mortar bombs."

7 Now, Mr. Tusevljak, the language of that paragraph, it's simple

8 and it's clear; correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When I asked you further questions, you first stated that by the

11 word "we" you meant the company not the platoon, and you said "that's

12 another error" in your statement. Now, you said that was an error

13 because you knew that anyone reading this -- these two sentences would

14 naturally be confused and think that you were talking about your platoon.

15 That's why you said that's another error; correct?

16 A. Yes, they belong to the company, to the -- these two mortars.

17 That was part of the company. As a platoon, we didn't have any mortars.

18 The company command was above us, and behind the company HQ was that

19 mortar. It was set up higher. Actually, in a valley.

20 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, you said that this was another error in your

21 statement because you knew that somebody reading this would, of course,

22 think that you were talking about the platoon. That's my question to

23 you. That is why you said this was an error in your statement.

24 A. Yes. We, as a platoon, we didn't have -- I mean --

25 Q. [Overlapping speakers]

Page 23448

1 A. -- it's an error. Perhaps when I said "we," I meant the company.

2 Q. Yes. And then on further questioning, you agreed that the

3 company did not "only have one" mortar but that it had two. That's what

4 you said; correct? You remember that.

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. And on even further questions you were even willing to say that

7 it was possibly three mortars; right?

8 A. Yes, it's possible. I said I didn't know. I know that one was

9 operational. As for the others, they were not used. Perhaps they were

10 not operating, something about the sights. I think that's what the crew

11 of the mortars told me.

12 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, please listen carefully to my question. Now your

13 statement said we only had one mortar, and already now you're willing to

14 admit the possibility of three; correct?

15 A. Yes. When I said "one," I meant the one that was in working

16 order. The others, one or two, they were not in working order. That's

17 what I meant.

18 Q. Then when I asked you about this phrase "no mortar bombs," you

19 told this Court that all you meant by that was that there were no mortar

20 shells on one day, the 8th of June, 1992, out of a four-year war - one

21 day you say your company had no mortar shells; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, on the 8th of June we didn't have any. They were needed.

23 We asked for mortar fire from that one, but they said they didn't have

24 any shells.

25 Q. And you would agree with me that in your Karadzic statement, as

Page 23449

1 we discussed yesterday, there is nothing to indicate the limitation of

2 that phrase "no mortar bombs" to just one day out of the entire war.

3 There is nothing in your statement that does that, is there?

4 A. I think so. That's how it was written. That's how it was

5 formulated. I know what I meant to say, but as for the way it was put,

6 it's not clear to me.

7 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, that's the way it was written and that's the way

8 you signed it. That's the way you signed that statement.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now in light of the changes, when we look again at paragraph 13

11 of your Karadzic statement, isn't it clear that anyone reading that

12 paragraph would be misled in their understanding about the situation

13 regarding mortars in your company?

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

15 Your Honours, I think that this is the third time that one and

16 the same question is being repeated to which the witness already replied

17 yesterday and today.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin.

19 MR. SHIN: What was the witness's answer to that question?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that the problem is, Mr. Stojanovic,

21 that the witness is not properly answering the question. So, therefore,

22 then you can put it again to the witness.

23 Please proceed, Mr. Shin.

24 MR. SHIN:

25 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, do you need the question again?

Page 23450

1 A. No, no. I understand.

2 Q. So what's your answer? Anyone reading that would be misled about

3 the situation regarding mortars in your company. That's obvious;

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So --

7 A. Yes, I think --

8 Q. -- knowing that someone reading that would be misled, you said

9 nothing. You said nothing when you signed this statement. You said

10 nothing during proofing, you said nothing here in Court until I started

11 asking you questions about this. In fact, on Wednesday when Defence

12 counsel asked you "does this" these statements, "fully correspond to what

13 you wish to say, what you did say, and what your recollection is," that

14 was another opportunity for you to correct this misleading impression

15 that your statement had left; isn't that correct? That was another

16 opportunity. Just tell me. It's correct that this was another

17 opportunity to do -- to make this correction?

18 A. Yes, yes, it's correct. But again, I'm not a lawyer. I didn't

19 really understand properly that that would mean something else other than

20 what I meant to talk about. That it can be interpreted differently.

21 Q. Mr. Tusevljak --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin, Mr. Shin.

23 MR. SHIN: Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: That's [indiscernible].

25 MR. SHIN: Okay.

Page 23451

1 Q. Now yesterday, Mr. Tusevljak, before we finished you

2 acknowledged -- or before we finished, you said about the

3 8th of June 1992, you said:

4 "There were a few shells, most of them were incendiary but on the

5 8th we didn't have any. These were just used to light up the sky at

6 night."

7 Now, Mr. Tusevljak, incendiary shells, they are used to set their

8 targets on fire. That's what they're for; correct?

9 A. Yes, incendiary ones. But I didn't know that they had incendiary

10 ones for mortars. They were illuminating ones which would light up the

11 area at night. I knew that some sort of action was being prepared so we

12 would observe what was going on, but on the evening of the 7th of June

13 they used three or four of those shells which are illuminating ones.

14 They don't have any other function.

15 Q. They also had regular shells, the kind that explode on impact?

16 A. Yes, I think there were a few of them up there at that command

17 before that. I think that there were some, but I don't know how many.

18 All I can remember is that on the 7th in the evening we were firing --

19 actually, they were firing the tracing ones so that we could observe

20 positions. You could hear the sound of trucks, preparations for the

21 attack, probably, so we asked for this area to be illuminated. We didn't

22 have any, actually. I asked for fire to be executed in front of our

23 positions. We didn't have any shells.

24 Q. You didn't know how many shells, so you can't really say that

25 they had very few shells. You've just told us that you didn't know.

Page 23452

1 A. When I was up there during those days, I think that there was a

2 box. Next to that there was another box with these tracer shells. I saw

3 that. I was talking with these guys and they said only that one was

4 functional and that was the only one that could fire, and that's why I

5 think that there wasn't a lot. It wasn't a depot. It was in the field,

6 it was covered with tent material, water proof material, but it's not up

7 to me. It's not my job to know how many of these things they had.

8 Probably on the 8th they didn't have any.

9 Q. We'll return to that issue of the mortar shells. Now let's just

10 go to the structure of your company. It's correct that there were four

11 infantry platoons; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. There was also a scouts or a reconnaissance section; correct?

14 A. Well, it wasn't a special squad or something. It was a young man

15 who would go somewhere where it would be better -- there would be a

16 better position to observe the positions in front of us. There was no

17 particular surveillance or reconnaissance units. Somebody would get a

18 task to go, have a look, come back to the lines, so that they could at

19 least get a look at what was in front of us.

20 Q. Mr. Tusevljak --

21 A. There was no squad --

22 Q. -- maybe I --

23 A. -- as such. That's true.

24 Q. Please focus on my questions, and if I feel that you're going

25 astray, I may indicate that you're going beyond the scope of the

Page 23453

1 question.

2 Now, apart from the 60-millimetre mortars, were there any other

3 mortars in the company?

4 A. I don't think so. I didn't see it. I know that this 60 was

5 close by, but I don't know about anything else.

6 Q. So during your four years with the company, as far as you know,

7 is your evidence that there was no other mortar apart from the

8 60-millimetre mortars in your company?

9 A. I don't think so. I think that behind the company quite a

10 distance away in the depth there was a mortar unit that also provided

11 support fire for us, and that's where they had five or six mortars. I

12 don't know what kind. But I know that they were deep in the depth of the

13 territory.

14 Q. Okay. I'm going to turn to a different topic now. In your

15 statement for this case in paragraph 2, you state:

16 "There was one sniper in my platoon and it was actually a sniper

17 that belonged to the battalion according to the establishment."

18 MR. SHIN: And it's not on this document, so we won't need it on

19 the screen. It's the other document, D539. But let's stay with this

20 document, because I will be returning to it, please.

21 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, in your Karadzic statement on paragraph 26 --

22 MR. SHIN: And that's E4 -- and that's page 4 on this document.

23 Q. -- you mention that at the end of 1993 a trained sniper was sent

24 to your unit.

25 Now, my first question to you is: Are we talking about the same

Page 23454

1 person or is this someone different? So in your Mladic statement you

2 mention that there was one sniper in your platoon; in your Karadzic

3 statement you mention that at the end of 1993 a sniper was sent to your

4 unit. The same person or different people?

5 A. It's the same person. It was that one and only person that came

6 then. It's the same person.

7 Q. What was this person's name?

8 A. Believe me when I say that I don't know. He was not part of our

9 company. He was sent either from the battalion or the brigade, and we

10 complained to the battalion commander that we couldn't work around in

11 that area because of the sniper from the other side, and then he sent

12 somebody to try to neutralise the other sniper.

13 Q. And, in fact, a sniper is an effective way to eliminate a sniper;

14 correct?

15 A. I think that a sniper would work against a sniper. Then it's

16 better to do it that way, for him to find him and neutralise him.

17 Q. Now, you've told this Court that --

18 MR. SHIN: And that's paragraph --

19 Q. Well, you've told this Court that there were 230 members of your

20 unit who were killed during the war, and you said that:

21 "They were killed in fighting. Most of them were killed in

22 sniper fire."

23 Now, you, as a platoon leader, you're responsible for the safety

24 of your men; correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23455

1 Q. So given the scope and scale of what you say is a sniper fire

2 against you, it would be natural for you to ask for snipers to counter

3 that sniper fire; is that right?

4 A. Yes. In this case we asked about Asimovo Brdo, but there were

5 snipers from the town as well. They would fire at us all along the

6 street, at our company, directly. The sniper from Asimovo Brdo that was

7 opposite us, he was able to have an overview from the command to

8 Banjalucka Street, and that's why we asked for the command for a way to

9 deal with this.

10 Q. So, Mr. Tusevljak, is this the -- this time at the end of 1993

11 when a sniper was sent to you, was that the only time you asked for a

12 sniper or did you ask for a sniper on more occasions?

13 A. We asked for it before, a couple of times either a sniper or some

14 weapon. We knew more or less where the two houses were from where the

15 sniper was shooting from Asimovo Brdo, but they didn't have anybody to

16 send to us, so then later they sent this man.

17 Q. Now in your Karadzic statement at paragraph 26, the document that

18 we have on the screen, you say that after this sniper was killed by a

19 Muslim sniper:

20 "After this, no other snipers arrived."

21 And you've just explained that. You also say:

22 "I also know for a fact that the neighbouring platoons did not

23 have any snipers in their ranks."

24 First of all, by "neighboring platoons" you're talking about the

25 other three platoons in your company; correct?

Page 23456

1 A. Yes, they were to the left and to the right of me.

2 Q. So is your testimony, then, that there were no snipers at all in

3 your company?

4 A. That's right. There were none. Had there been any, then they

5 wouldn't have needed to send somebody from the brigade or the battalion.

6 I don't know where he came from. But in any event, he was sent by the

7 battalion command.

8 Q. Let me put a slightly different question to you. Isn't it true

9 that soldiers in your company used sniper rifles?

10 A. Perhaps in the company, yes, but these were these old snipers.

11 We had one at the company command. Somebody could take the sniper rifle

12 and use it if they needed it. We couldn't use it because we were so

13 close by and nobody could be effective against such a precise sniper who

14 fired at Ozrenska and at us. He was a good sniper shooter and nobody

15 could deal with that, so we practically didn't use the sniper rifle.

16 Q. So your evidence is that there was only one sniper rifle in your

17 company. Is that what you're saying?

18 A. I think that there was one. I saw one at the command. I didn't

19 read there if there were any more, but I think I only saw that one at the

20 command of the company in the racks.

21 Q. Okay. We're now going to go look at some documents, and these

22 documents pertain to weapons in your company.

23 MR. SHIN: Could I please have 65 ter 30867.

24 Q. Now, Mr. Tusevljak, while we're waiting for this to come up on

25 this -- on the screen, let me explain to you what it is. It's a document

Page 23457

1 from the 2nd Battalion, 4th Company - your company - and it's dated the

2 22nd of October, 1993. We see that in the upper left-hand corner now.

3 And we also see the location Ozrenska. That would be Ozrenska Street;

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, Ozrenska Street.

6 Q. And at the bottom --

7 MR. SHIN: It's the second page in the English.

8 Q. -- you see that it's signed by Mr. Major Dragutin Loncaric.

9 We've already discussed who he is. Now you see a reference to the

10 Zbrojevka Brno rifle -- or weapon. We've discussed that yesterday.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we go back to the first page.

12 MR. SHIN: Yes, I'm sorry, the first page in English.

13 Q. And that's the fourth item there. A little further down we see

14 references to two M-84s, we talked about that. You told us about an

15 effective range if you had an optical sight for that. And by the way,

16 that weapon was also referred to as the sower of death, right,

17 "sejac smrti"?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And likewise we find references to M-48s, a weapon we discussed

20 yesterday. Now starting at line 6 -- so going back near the top of this,

21 just before -- just under the letter PAN, we see the entry MB-60 mm; that

22 is a 60-millimetre mortar. And we see that appearing three times. So

23 that means there are three 60-millimetre mortars; correct? Are we clear

24 on that now?

25 A. Yes, I see it. I see it.

Page 23458

1 Q. And we also see just below that MB-82 mm. That is an

2 82-millimetre mortar; correct?

3 A. Yes, that is what it says.

4 Q. So, in fact, the company had an additional mortar and it was an

5 82-millimetre mortar; correct?

6 A. I have never seen it. I saw the one I mentioned already.

7 Perhaps it was not in operation at the time. And the other two, I've

8 never seen them. It was somewhere further away. I am not aware of the

9 82-millimetre piece ever engaging anything, too. I don't even know

10 whether it was there at all. Perhaps it's just on the list. I'm not

11 familiar with it.

12 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, we'll see some other documents pertaining to that.

13 But your evidence right now is that during your four years you had no

14 knowledge that an 82-millimetre mortar was ever engaged; is that correct?

15 A. Yes. I don't think I saw it at all.

16 Q. We also see further down a reference to -- and I think it's

17 the -- or it's the bottom of the page in B/C/S.

18 MR. SHIN: I believe it's the second page in English.

19 Q. We see a reference to two Osa. Yes, there it is. Now, an Osa

20 that's a portable rocket launcher, multi-use; correct?

21 A. Yes, Osa is portable but it has a single tube. It has one rocket

22 that can be used to engage tanks, for example.

23 Q. And we also see at the bottom --

24 MR. SHIN: And back on page 1 in the English.

25 Q. -- that there are two weapons listed as broving, and those are

Page 23459

1 browning machine-guns of different calibres; correct?

2 A. Yes, correct.

3 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender 30867.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30867 receives number P6624,

6 Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: P6624 is admitted.

8 MR. SHIN: Now, can I please have 65 ter 30868 brought up on the

9 screen.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Tusevljak, while we're waiting for that to come up, I'll

11 explain what it is. It's a document from the 4th Infantry Company,

12 2nd Battalion. Again, the location is Ozrenska we see on the upper left,

13 and it's dated the 3rd of December, 1993. Now we see that it's signed by

14 Lieutenant Dusan Zurovac for the commander. We've heard about him

15 already. He's a supply officer at the 4th Company's command.

16 Now, we see that he's requesting various ammunition, including

17 one crate of 60-millimetre shells and two crates of 82-millimetre shells.

18 That would suggest that the 82-millimetre mortar was used; correct?

19 A. I said I don't know. I only know about the 60-millimetre pieces.

20 I'm not aware of the whereabouts of the 82-millimetre piece. I guess it

21 was there, but we were further down. I've no clue. I never asked for

22 anything of the sort. I didn't even know there was one. I only knew of

23 the 60-millimetre piece. I'm not aware of this one. Maybe it was lent.

24 The pieces were carried around all the time. I really don't know.

25 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender 30868.

Page 23460

1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

2 MR. SHIN: Now, I'd like -- I'm sorry.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30868 receives number P6625,

4 Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ORIE: P6625 is admitted.

6 MR. SHIN: Now, I'd like to continue on with another document.

7 But before doing that, if Your Honours would permit, I would like to pass

8 out a hard copy of what is currently D545 because I would like the

9 witness to compare that with what's going to be on the screen in B/C/S

10 and in English.

11 JUDGE ORIE: No objections I take, Mr. Stojanovic. We --

12 MR. SHIN: We have copies available, of course, for -- the

13 Defence can find it on the screen. But we have hard copies available for

14 the Defence and for Your Honours when we go through this process.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed as you suggested, Mr. Shin.

16 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Now could we please have on the screen 65 ter 30865. And we'll

18 take a moment and just wait for that document to come up.

19 Q. Now, Mr. Tusevljak, if we look at the document on the screen, if

20 you look on the left you see that it's a handwritten document. And I'm

21 going to go to some specific pages first before we consider this document

22 as a whole.

23 MR. SHIN: Can we first go to page in the English 4 and the

24 B/C/S 4.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Tusevljak, do you see on the left-hand side of that page

Page 23461

1 in B/C/S the quote -- let me try that again: "

2 1st Platoon leave request for 30 May, 1992, Milivoje and

3 Miroslav Cavarkapa." Now that refers to the Cabarkapas that we saw on

4 the list for the 1st Platoon, and that's a document that you have right

5 in front of you; correct?

6 A. Yes, correct.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Where do we see the -- only if you request. It is

8 under 29th of May, the second half of the left part of the page and then

9 a couple of lines down. Yes, I see.

10 MR. SHIN: Yes, I am sorry.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, we found it.

12 MR. SHIN: Okay. We'll try to give greater clearance on where

13 the passages are that are referred to.

14 Now can we go to page 9 in both languages.

15 Q. Now in the B/C/S on the left, Mr. Witness, do you see where it

16 says Miso Vasic?

17 MR. SHIN: And that's around the middle of the page in English.

18 Q. Have you found that? It's around the fourth line from the top,

19 Mr. Tusevljak.

20 A. One moment. Yes, Miso Vasic. Found him.

21 Q. And it's signed Mile Vasic; correct?

22 A. Mile. Yes, Mile.

23 Q. Now, if you look at the document in your hand, if you look -- oh.

24 MR. SHIN: If I could have a moment please, Your Honour. We're

25 just checking what language the witness has in front of him.

Page 23462

1 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, if you're looking at a document that has some

2 English on it, you'll find that on the second page you have in the

3 original language in the -- in the B/C/S. Yes.

4 MR. SHIN: And my thanks to Ms. Stewart for pointing this out.

5 Q. Now, if you look at line number -- line number 6, that's

6 Mile Vasic. If you could take a look at the serial number of his

7 automatic weapon, that matches what we see on the screen in front of us;

8 correct? 316912 [Realtime transcript read in error" 3196912"]. That's

9 the unique identifying number of his weapon.

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 Q. And let's go to one more.

12 MR. SHIN: Let's go to page 12 in both the English and the B/C/S.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Shin, could you please check if the number on

14 line 25, page 17, is correct.

15 MR. SHIN: Thank you for pointing that out, Your Honour. I spoke

16 too fast again. So let me say it slowly. It's 316912.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

18 MR. SHIN: And, of course, that's the number we see in the

19 document; that is, D545.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Tusevljak, on the screen you have -- on your right do

21 you see the name Dragomir Gornja and the letters and numbers AP469022.

22 Which is written over the crossed out number 666792.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Shin, does the number start with AP or does it

24 start with PAP?

25 MR. SHIN: Yes. The number -- the letters just before the number

Page 23463

1 that's crossed out do start with PAP. Thank you for correcting that,

2 Your Honour.

3 Q. Now, Mr. Tusevljak, if you look at the document in front of you,

4 you see number 26, the name Dragutin Gornja, and you see handwritten

5 here - so in handwriting, not typed - the letters and numbers AP 469022.

6 Now, despite the difference in the spelling of the first name, we're

7 talking about the same person; correct?

8 A. Yes, correct.

9 Q. I would now turn to a couple references in this document that you

10 may be more familiar with.

11 MR. SHIN: Let's turn to page 20 in both languages, please.

12 Q. And just above -- and on the right side, if we could just --

13 MR. SHIN: Thank you.

14 Q. Just on the right side of that in the B/C/S, just above where it

15 says 8th of August 1992 --

16 MR. SHIN: If I could just have one moment, Your Honours. In

17 English it's in the right column at the very top.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But I find the 5th of August, 1992.

19 MR. SHIN: Yes, you're correct, Your Honours. It's 5th of

20 August. My mistake.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We should have the B/C/S version, the right side

22 of the -- this handwritten page fully on the screen. Thank you.

23 MR. SHIN: Oh, I'm sorry. I -- maybe I should have been more

24 clear. In the English I'm looking in the middle of the right-hand column

25 in the line that begins "1st Platoon ..." So, in fact, the date is the

Page 23464

1 8th of August in the next line below.

2 Q. Have you found that, Mr. Tusevljak? The whole line reads -- yes?

3 A. Yes, I found it.

4 Q. "1st Platoon, 5 hand-grenades, Slobo Tusevljak." That's you;

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, there are more references we can go through, but

8 let me just ask you: This is a notebook of supplies and of

9 administrative matters relating to the 4th Company; correct?

10 A. Yes, correct. I think so.

11 Q. Are we right that it's a notebook of the company supplies

12 officer?

13 A. Yes, I think it is his. He kept record of it.

14 Q. Do you recognise his handwriting?

15 A. No. There were different company officers and I don't know who

16 was in that position at the time. It must be somewhere in the book.

17 Q. And one of the company supply officers was Dusan Zurovac;

18 correct?

19 A. Correct, sir.

20 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender 30865.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30865 receives number P6626,

23 Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: P6626 is admitted.

25 MR. SHIN:

Page 23465

1 Q. Now, Mr. Tusevljak, we're going to go to a few other places in

2 this -- in this notebook.

3 MR. SHIN: Could we please have page 4 in both the English and

4 the B/C/S. And I'll wait until it's brought up on the screen. In the

5 English I'll be going to the right-hand column at the top. Now, in the

6 B/C/S it will also be in the right-hand -- at the top.

7 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, it's -- here, you see at the top it says

8 "1st Platoon, one case shells for M-60 mortar," and there is a signature.

9 Do you recognise that signature? That says Kapuran, doesn't it?

10 Kapuran.

11 A. Yes, probably. Yes.

12 Q. So --

13 A. I see it now.

14 Q. -- that would be the commander of the 1st Platoon who preceded

15 you?

16 A. Precisely, sir.

17 Q. And we see that this appears just above the date 30 May, 1992.

18 And if we look on the left side of this page in both languages, we see

19 that the preceding entry - and therefore the relevant entry - is the

20 29th of May, 1992.

21 MR. SHIN: Now could we please -- and that's in the middle of

22 both pages. If we could please turn to page 7 in both the English and

23 the B/C/S. I will be looking in the English on the left-hand side and in

24 the B/C/S -- I'm sorry, it's page -- I'm sorry, it's page 8. If I said 7

25 that was my error. And in the English we'll be looking at the left-hand

Page 23466

1 column. I believe in the B/C/S it may be the right-hand column. Okay,

2 I'm --

3 JUDGE ORIE: We had it on our screen a minute ago, I think --

4 MR. SHIN: No, I'm -- I have to correct myself again. It is

5 page 7, my mistake. Yes. This is the correct page.

6 JUDGE ORIE: We had this on our screen a minute ago.

7 MR. SHIN: Yes. No, I'm sorry --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

9 MR. SHIN: I made two errors to get myself back to the correct

10 page.

11 Q. Do you see, Mr. Tusevljak, the line that says: "Mortar Section,

12 two cases, shells for an 82-millimetre mortar, received by Lj. Bozic"?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. SHIN: And if we could now go to the next page.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin, is there any relevance in looking at what

16 appears above there for the 1st Platoon?

17 MR. SHIN: Yes, and we might as well just do that now, then.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. SHIN:

20 Q. Above that we see for the 1st Platoon, Mr. Tusevljak, 15 rifle

21 grenades, 150 bullets for a 7.9-millimetre sniper rifle. This is under

22 the entry for June 1992. That indicates -- that entry itself, that

23 indicates that there was a sniper rifle in the 1st Platoon; doesn't it?

24 A. Yes. At the beginning there was one. But as I said, when I

25 assumed the duty, it was at the company command in a house about 200

Page 23467

1 metres away from our platoon's positions. I think I even referred to it

2 somewhere in the statement. I didn't say we had one sniper rifle, which

3 we could make use of, but it was always up there.

4 Q. I don't think that was your evidence, but we'll continue now.

5 And we'll just go through a couple more of these because the Judges have

6 this document now and there are other issues that can be examined.

7 MR. SHIN: Let's turn to page 9 in both the English and the

8 B/C/S. And it's on the right-hand side, I believe, of both languages at

9 the top.

10 Q. We see the entry "Scouts." And there we see there are 100,

11 7.9 millimetre bullets for a sniper rifle. And you say something about

12 just the beginning.

13 MR. SHIN: I will go to one final entry, at page English and

14 B/C/S 65. And it's on the right-hand side of this document.

15 Q. At the very top, we see 12th of March, 1995 -- I'll wait until it

16 comes up, page 65. At the top we see Ilija Latkovic issued a sniper

17 rifle ..." And we will have other evidence on who specifically

18 Mr. Latkovic was.

19 MR. SHIN: I would like to turn to another document, please.

20 Could I please have document 65 ter 30864.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin, wouldn't it be fair to alert the witness

22 that we jumped three years ahead.

23 MR. SHIN: Yes, I believe I had read the date out. But I --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but we --

25 MR. SHIN: But I was seeking, in fact, a contrast, the beginning

Page 23468

1 and the end. That was the intent of my question, if that was not clear.

2 My apologies.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The page we are looking at now is 1995,

4 Witness, whereas the previous pages were from spring 1992.

5 MR. SHIN: That's correct. So I guess -- the -- the contrast now

6 is quite clear. If I could please have 65 -- yes, we have that now. And

7 I would ask to go to English page 5 and B/C/S page 4. Yes.

8 Q. Now we see that this is a document from the 2nd

9 Infantry Battalion, 4th Company. Again, Ozrenska. The date is the

10 15th of January, 1994. The document - we needn't go to the signature

11 page - it's signed by Dusan Zurovac.

12 MR. SHIN: Now if we could go not next page in English and stay

13 on this page in B/C/S.

14 Q. Witness, you can see number 25. It says Rajko Curo. And we see

15 the word "sniper" appearing twice. The second time the phrase is "sniper

16 Tandzara." Do you see that?

17 A. Yes, I see it.

18 Q. Now, the Tandzara, which we discussed yesterday, that has an

19 effective range of over 1000 metres with a scope; correct?

20 A. Yes, I think so.

21 MR. SHIN: And if we turn now to the next page in the B/C/S and

22 stay on this page in English and number 39.

23 Q. We see a reference to "sniper."

24 MR. SHIN: And one more. If we could turn to English page 8 and

25 B/C/S page 6. And now we're going to look at number 83.

Page 23469

1 Q. Under the -- after the name Savic, Blagoje, we see this phrase,

2 "... sniper, M-48 with optical sight." Mr. Tusevljak, this does show

3 that there were snipers in your company or individuals using sniper

4 weapons; correct?

5 A. I see it in the documents but I wasn't aware of it. This

6 documentation dates back to April and May 1992. At the time the war

7 hadn't even gun yet. I don't know what people purchased up there or had

8 at Ozrenska. I know that this guy, for example, was some kind of company

9 commander so perhaps he had to make a list. But later on when I became

10 commander of the 2nd Platoon, these were no longer used. I didn't have

11 it. The one we did was up with the company. I never saw anyone coming

12 to my positions with the -- a sniper rifle. Indeed, there was no need

13 for it. However, this was at the very beginning. That's how I see this

14 document.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin.

16 MR. SHIN: Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Was there any reason why we did not look at 89 - and

18 that's my first question. And the second question is whether you could

19 take the witness and the Chamber --

20 MR. SHIN: Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: -- back to the date of this document.

22 MR. SHIN: Yes. If we -- for the date, if we could turn to

23 English 5 and B/C/S 4.

24 Q. And to be fair to you, Mr. Tusevljak, perhaps we went quickly

25 past this, but I think the date is clearer there. And it is for

Page 23470

1 January 15th, 1994.

2 MR. SHIN: And, yes, Your Honours, there are -- there will be

3 other information that's relevant in all these documents, but in the

4 interest of time I have cut short some of those parts.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 MR. SHIN:

7 Q. So you see the date, Mr. Tusevljak?

8 A. Yes, yes, I see it now. But a moment ago I saw a document dated

9 back in April or May where there was some reference to a sniper. But,

10 for example, this document, Cero Rajko [phoen]. I knew him. He lives in

11 Ozrenska Street. I think he was killed on that date or by that date. I

12 don't know how come he's in this document. I think he was killed. I

13 don't know.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Given the last response by the

17 witness to the effect that Rajko, Cero, was killed, I think it would be

18 only fair to the witness to show him the title of this document to see

19 what is asked for in the document.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you could have done so in

21 re-examination if you wished to do. You can object against questions.

22 The Chamber may give guidance to parties, how to proceed while

23 questioning. But you could have left this until re-examination.

24 Please proceed.

25 Although I must add to that that sometimes in obvious situations

Page 23471

1 it may sometimes be appreciated if there is any assistance. I do not

2 know whether this is such an occasion. I leave that in Mr. Shin's hands.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. SHIN: Certainly.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour.

6 Just one sentence. The questions were in the context of the fact of --

7 if the unit had snipers at this particular date, but the heading of the

8 document perhaps could provide an answer. That's why I spoke out.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, do you understand English? Do you

10 understand English?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not really.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you take your earphones off for a second.

13 Mr. Stojanovic, you are entering into a debate on what, as we see

14 in English, "claimed weapons" means. Now, if I claim a weapon and I have

15 already the numbers of the weapons there, there are two ways of

16 understanding "claimed weapons," those that were claimed and received and

17 those that are still claimed and have not yet been received.

18 Now please explain to me why you have already the serial numbers

19 of the weapons you have not yet received. That is a discussion which can

20 take place but not as an intervention in the examination by Mr. Shin.

21 I hope that before you do it again, you think it over twice.

22 MR. SHIN: And just on that - and I don't wish to engage into an

23 argument - but the document itself indicates what the status of some of

24 these individuals are, and I'll leave it at that.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apart from that, sometimes handwriting adds to

Page 23472

1 the information which suggests that it's updated regularly and --

2 MR. SHIN: That's correct, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: And therefore for three or four reasons,

4 Mr. Stojanovic, it would have been better to think it over twice before

5 you intervened. And I again repeat that sometimes in obvious cases, and

6 apparently this is not such an obvious case, that it can be appreciated

7 but be very careful with that.

8 Mr. Shin, you may proceed after the witness has put on his

9 earphones again.

10 Svedok, Witness. The witness even doesn't understand my B/C/S.

11 That is problematic.

12 Please proceed.

13 MR. SHIN: Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if I say please proceed, Mr. Shin, I'm also

15 looking at the time.

16 MR. SHIN: I would need five minutes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Five minutes. Then I would suggest that we continue

18 for five minutes, take the break, and that the witness would be

19 re-examined after the break.

20 MR. SHIN: Could I tender this document, please. This is

21 65 ter 30864.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30864 receives number P6627,

24 Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: P6627 is admitted.

Page 23473

1 MR. SHIN: I would like to turn to a -- 65 ter 30869.

2 Q. Now, Mr. Tusevljak, you've explained yesterday that you only know

3 about the sniping incident called F4 from what certain lawyers have told

4 you. But you also say that you know this area, and so I want to ask you

5 something that you were shown in your Karadzic testimony. Now, you were

6 shown this photo taken from the Ozrenska Street to a particular location.

7 And when you were testifying in Karadzic, you were asked whether this

8 shows a line of sight, and you acknowledged that it did. You stand by

9 that testimony; correct?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender 30869.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30869 receives number P6628,

14 Your Honours.

15 MR. SHIN: And this --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Well --

17 MR. SHIN: -- photograph is a photograph taken from

18 Ozrenska Street towards the location of the incident, sniping incident

19 F4. We'll be looking at a zoomed-in picture next.

20 JUDGE ORIE: That was exactly what was missing when you tendered

21 it.

22 MR. SHIN: Yes, I --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Because line of sight, line of sight by the millions

24 in this worlds, Mr. Shin.

25 MR. SHIN: Yes, my apologies. I'm hurrying a little which is not

Page 23474

1 wise.

2 JUDGE ORIE: No, no.

3 Witness, do you confirm that this is a picture from

4 Ozrenska Street to the place where incident F4 happened?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sir. I see the place, but

6 this is all the way to the right from my positions. I was all the way to

7 the left. From this part you could see it. Ozrenska is down there and

8 the positions are right down there, and this is up there on some hill or

9 something. But you can see it.

10 JUDGE ORIE: But this was under the control of your armed forces,

11 wasn't it?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not quite sure whether this

13 place was held by our company or the neighboring company. But, yes, all

14 the way down to Grbavica. I'm not sure which company.

15 JUDGE ORIE: That's the reason why I used the expression "armed

16 forces."

17 One second please, Mr. Shin.

18 P6628 is admitted into evidence.

19 Please proceed.

20 MR. SHIN: And one final document. If we could please have

21 65 ter 30870.

22 Q. It's a zoom -- it's a zoomed-in photograph version of this

23 photograph, which you've also seen before, Mr. Tusevljak. And you

24 recognise that as a zoomed-in picture from the previous one; correct?

25 You were shown both in the Karadzic case.

Page 23475

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender 30870.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30870 receives number P6629,

5 Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: P6629 is admitted.

7 MR. SHIN:

8 Q. And a final question for you, Mr. Tusevljak. You were explaining

9 to the Judges that this was not held by your company. Now, in the

10 Karadzic case you believed that the position from where this

11 photograph -- these photographs were taken was held by the 2nd Company,

12 not by your platoon. Do you stand by that testimony in the Karadzic

13 trial?

14 A. Yes, sir. My platoon was all the way to the left, far away.

15 This is either at the very end of the AOR of my company and the beginning

16 of the AOR of the next company. I'm not quite sure because the

17 photograph is quite focused. But our platoon's area of responsibility

18 was all the way to Asimovo Brdo, so I didn't really see much of this. I

19 couldn't see this place at all. We were lower down. There were the

20 buildings, the taxi --

21 Q. [Overlapping speakers]

22 A. -- driver's hole, so it wasn't possible to see this place from

23 where we were.

24 MR. SHIN: No further questions, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Shin.

Page 23476

1 We will take a break and the witness will be escorted out of the

2 courtroom.

3 However, Mr. Stojanovic, the revised B/C/S and English versions

4 of the statement that were uploaded, and I'm talking about D498 --

5 [The witness stands down]

6 JUDGE ORIE: -- they were uploaded separately and without 65 ter

7 numbers. Now, if you want the current document to be replaced by it,

8 Madam Registrar would need a revised version properly uploaded with the

9 original and translation uploaded and connected under one 65 ter number.

10 That's what needs to be done in order to achieve what you wish to

11 achieve.

12 We take a break and will resume at 11.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin.

16 MR. SHIN: Yes, Mr. President, while we're waiting perhaps I

17 could just address the Osmica issue and indicate where we believe it is

18 and perhaps we could hear more from the Defence on where it may be.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If you do that already among yourself and then if

20 you agree that we receive your shared opinion about it, and if there is

21 any disagreement then, of course, the Chamber --

22 MR. SHIN: Okay.

23 JUDGE ORIE: -- would hear where you think it is --

24 MR. SHIN: Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: -- and where Mr. Stojanovic thinks it is.

Page 23493

1 two statements currently MFI'd as P6585 and P6586. At this time I

2 withdraw my motion for admission while we explore other avenues of

3 presenting the relevant substance of these statements into evidence.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Bibles. It doesn't come as a

5 surprise because it was announced already.

6 Madam Registrar, P6585 and P6586 are vacated.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Maksimovic.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, Mr. Maksimovic, the Rules

11 require that you make the solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth,

12 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text is handed out to

13 you. I would like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 WITNESS: SINISA MAKSIMOVIC

17 [Witness answered through interpretation]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated Mr. Maksimovic.

19 Mr. Maksimovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.

20 You'll find him to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

21 You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, for the record, kindly tell us your first

25 and last name slowly.

Page 23494

1 A. Sinisa Maksimovic.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness be asked

3 to approach the microphone. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you come a bit closer to the

5 microphone.

6 THE WITNESS: Okay.

7 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters have difficulties hearing you.

8 Witness, you -- you said "okay," was that because you understood

9 my English or it was interpreted to you?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you understand English. That's sometimes

12 useful for us to know.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To a certain extent.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, please tell the Court whether at some point in

18 time you provided a statement to General Mladic's Defence team in written

19 form?

20 A. I did.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we please have

22 1D01605 in e-court. Page 1, please.

23 Q. Sir, are the details contained in this first page correct and is

24 this your signature?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23495

1 Q. Let us now go to the last page, please. Is the signature on the

2 last page of the document yours? And the numbers 20/05/2014, is that in

3 your own handwriting?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. If I were to put the same questions to you today that

6 were put to you while preparing your statement and during proofing,

7 having solemnly declared to speak the truth, would you remain with the

8 statement you provided to General Mladic's Defence team in its entirety?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender the

12 accompanying documents with this statement, 65 ter numbers 1D02052.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Are you tendering the statement or the associated

14 exhibits?

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] First the statement and then the

16 associated exhibits, Your Honour. I apologise. First I'd like to tender

17 1D1605.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, no objections?

19 MS. BIBLES: No objections. No objection.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1605 receives number D547,

22 Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ORIE: D547 is admitted into evidence.

24 And I hasten to add to that, Mr. Stojanovic, that it seems that

25 due to the colour of the copying that for this statement, again, and that

Page 23496

1 apparently the cover page and the last page, the signature page, have

2 been separated once because they are totally different in colour as far

3 as copying is concerned. The ERN numbers -- the -- therefore, I would

4 again, if you separate those parts of a document I would insist in the

5 future that not only the first and the last page are signed but that the

6 other pages are initialed as well, and once the statement is complete

7 that you also attach a complete translation. I can see on the signature

8 page that the witness signed for five pages, but that, for example,

9 doesn't appear in the English version.

10 Now not dramatic at this moment but a very careful and accurate

11 handling of documents is, as we know by now, an absolute requirement.

12 Associated exhibits. You mentioned one already, that was, I

13 think 1D1 --

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I will repeat.

15 JUDGE ORIE: 1D -- well, there is no need. 1D02052.

16 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, we do object to this map. It's a

17 street map which lacks clarity, and, upon reflection, does seem to

18 confuse and mislead with respect to the area involved. So we would

19 object to this associated exhibit at this time.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have a look at it.

21 And could you meanwhile, Mr. Stojanovic, respond to the

22 objection.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I believe

24 that that is not correct and that the witness marked the positions on

25 this map, according to his best recollection, positions of his unit and

Page 23497

1 position of two features that are referred to in our case.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether he marked anything or do you want to

3 say that he confirmed pre-marking -- unless the witness did it himself.

4 Witness, could you have a look at the screen. Those red oval

5 signs and the lines, did you mark that yourself or was it marked for you

6 and did you state it? Did you state about those markings?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This map was presented to me in the

8 Karadzic case and I marked the positions of my unit. And in the depth

9 two features or rather two villages. In the technical sense, I don't

10 know whether I actually made the markings or not, but this does represent

11 what I know about that part of the territory.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, is your problem that you disagree with

13 the markings in the statement? Because you said it did not -- it was

14 unclear and vague and ...

15 MS. BIBLES: We've two objections. First is: I'm not sure I

16 understood the answer when the witness indicated that in the technical

17 sense he does not know whether he made the markings or not.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I take it that he wants to say that he, not

19 himself, did not put those red ovals or the red line on that map but that

20 it was done either upon his instruction or without his instruction but

21 that he stated or testified about it. That is how I understood his

22 testimony. And the witness nods to confirm that at this moment.

23 MS. BIBLES: Second, Your Honour, looking at the map itself we

24 obviously have had a number of maps presented with respect to the area of

25 Sarajevo and around Sarajevo. This is a street map which is very

Page 23498

1 confusing in light of the actual topography and the various areas that

2 are at issue with respect to this map. And that would bear --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you be a bit more concrete? I mean, it looks

4 very much as a -- as an extract of a map we have seen very often before.

5 Or is there anything ...?

6 MS. BIBLES: Well, one of the confusing aspects, Your Honour, is

7 a place that is very much at issue is referred to as Sharpstone. With

8 respect to this particular area, which does not appear to be reflected on

9 the map, and that appears to be what -- part of the substance of this

10 witness's testimony would be about that area.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Typically seems to be a matter which, if he marked

12 it in this way, you can further test those markings during

13 cross-examination, I would say. I do not see anything in the map itself

14 apart from you would have wished, perhaps, some features to be found more

15 explicitly. The objection is overruled.

16 Madam Registrar, the number would be?

17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2052 receives number D548,

18 Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

20 Any other associated exhibits, Mr. Stojanovic?

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, two more. I'm going to

22 read both of them: 65 ter numbers 1D02053 and 1D02054.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, no objections?

24 MS. BIBLES: No objections, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

Page 23499

1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2053 receives number D549. And

2 document 1D2054 receives number D550, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Both are admitted into evidence. I see that in the

4 statement of the witness the Mladic 65 ter numbers are used, so therefore

5 we don't have to pay further attention to the Karadzic exhibit numbers

6 unless you would want to further explore the Karadzic statement on the

7 matter.

8 In that case, Ms. Bibles, you should clearly state on the record

9 that what 65 ter number in this case corresponds with the 65 ter number

10 and -- oh, the exhibit number in the Karadzic case.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I

13 would like to read the summary of the statement.

14 Witness Sinisa Maksimovic in the course of the war carried out a

15 series of establishment and superior duties at the Sarajevo front,

16 starting as a signals officer at the signals platoon at the SRK command,

17 duties in the Intervention Platoon in the Igman Brigade, and company

18 commander in the 1st Romanija Brigade in Mrkovici and in the

19 Igman Brigade. He took part in the fighting at Igman in the summer of

20 1993 when the Army of Republika Srpska occupied positions of the

21 Brezovaca facilities and the Tresnido Brdo [phoen] trig point from which

22 the B&H army fired from their artillery weapons at positions of the VRS

23 and at civilian buildings in Hadzici.

24 After reaching an agreement with UNPROFOR, the VRS withdrew from

25 this position because the UNPROFOR was supposed to take them over and

Page 23500

1 keep them under their control. However, he witnessed a deception on this

2 point because immediately after the VRS withdrew from this feature, it

3 was captured or taken over by the B&H Army.

4 Similar situation where the B&H Army and UNPROFOR acted together

5 occurred during the NATO bombing in late August and in September 1995.

6 UN Rapid Intervention Forces from positions of the B&H Army and together

7 with them with aerial support from -- fired from artillery weapons of the

8 highest calibre and range at positions of the VRS at which time their

9 command post was struck, the witness's command post.

10 This witness was also an eye-witness of artillery fire by the B&H

11 army with 120- and 82-millimetre mortars and from howitzers at Ilidza.

12 The witness is familiar with positions of the VRS and the B&H Army in the

13 section of Spicasta Stijena and Grdonj hill because with his company he

14 held the position in the forest on the slopes of Grdonj hill.

15 The vantage point and the highest trig point of Grdonj hill was

16 held by forces of the B&H Army who had a good vantage point over that

17 part of town as well as Spicasta Stijena, the peek of which was held by

18 the VRS.

19 Neither his nor the neighbouring units at the time when he was in

20 the area had any sniper weapons, and knowing this terrain in connection

21 with incident F16 from the indictment, the witness asserts that the VRS

22 positions were over 1.000 metres away from where the incident took place.

23 Your Honours, that would be the summary and now I'm going to put

24 some questions to the witness.

25 JUDGE ORIE: But I suggest you do that after the break.

Page 23501

1 We take a break and we resume at 20 minutes past midday after the

2 witness has left the courtroom.

3 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

4 [The witness stands down]

5 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.

8 JUDGE ORIE: We are waiting for the witness to come into the

9 courtroom.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, the interpreters have a

11 correction. At the end of the previous session Mr. Stojanovic actually

12 said that he has no questions for the witness.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that Ms. Bibles can start her

14 cross-examination right --

15 MS. BIBLES: Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: -- after the arrival of the witness.

17 [The witness takes the stand]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Maksimovic, since Mr. Stojanovic has no further

19 questions for you, you'll now be cross-examined by Ms. Bibles. You'll

20 find her to your right. And Ms. Bibles is counsel for the Prosecution.

21 Ms. Bibles, please proceed.

22 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Cross-examination by Ms. Bibles:

24 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Maksimovic.

25 A. Good afternoon.

Page 23502

1 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, I would first like to start with a few questions

2 about the statement that has been prepared for this case, for the Mladic

3 case. First, could you tell us how many days you were interviewed in

4 preparation for this statement?

5 A. I didn't understand whether you mean preparations in The Hague or

6 the total preparations for my testimony?

7 Q. Preparation prior to your arrival at The Hague in preparation for

8 signing your statement.

9 A. I think that it was in April 2013, that was the first time. Then

10 twice in October, and then again in December. That was the last time.

11 In 2013.

12 Q. Did you review a draft statement on any of those dates?

13 A. Each time I would come to prepare, I would be shown what I had

14 said and then corrections were made, whether everything was all right or

15 not. The last time when I received my complete statement, I made

16 handwritten corrections, I sent it back, and then I received the final

17 version of my statement, I signed it, and that's the statement that we

18 just looked at.

19 Q. All right. If we could direct attention to the fourth page of

20 your statement under the section that has a bold "F16." I would like you

21 to take a look at that when it comes up on the screen.

22 MS. BIBLES: And that would be D547.

23 Q. Could you please take a look. As we see F16, there is one

24 sentence, and then there is a paragraph that begins -- could you please

25 carefully read that first sentence?

Page 23503

1 A. To read it out loud?

2 "About an alleged sniper-related incident on the

3 6th of March, 1995, from Spicasta Stijena towards Sedrenik."

4 Q. Great. And just the line below that, could you read it to

5 yourself and tell me whether it's accurate?

6 A. I suggested this also the last time that I read it. I was

7 actually not the company commander in this period and this is what is

8 missing at the beginning of the sentence.

9 Q. And, I'm sorry, could you clarify for us whether you were or were

10 not the commander of the company on the 6th of March, 1995?

11 A. I was transferred to the Igman Brigade in 1994 in the month of

12 December so that I was not there at that period, but I did speak about

13 this incident because I was familiar with the terrain. At the beginning

14 of the paragraph what is missing is that "although during this period I

15 was not the commander of the company."

16 Q. So just to be clear, you meant to say that you were not the

17 commander of the company in who --

18 A. During that period.

19 Q. Okay. So is it true then that you have no direct or personal

20 knowledge of events which occurred in that -- the zone of that company on

21 the 6th of March, 1995?

22 A. None that would be direct or personal. That's correct.

23 Q. Now at the top of this section, it's titled "F16," do you know

24 what is meant by F16?

25 A. I think that is a marking from the indictment, the marking that

Page 23504

1 somebody allocated to an incident that is in the indictment.

2 Q. In the Karadzic case a similar paragraph of your statement began

3 with:

4 "It has been explained to me that 6 March, 1995, a sniper

5 incident also allegedly occurred."

6 Could you tell us what was explained to you about the 6 March

7 1995 incident prior to the Karadzic statement?

8 A. I was shown photographs from the place where the incident took

9 place. I was shown the supposed place where the projectile was fired

10 from. I was just talking about the units' positions and the possibility

11 or impossibility of firing from that position.

12 Q. And who did you have this discussion with?

13 A. There was somebody there from the Defence team. I think it was

14 Sladojevic. He was a member of Mr. Karadzic's Defence team.

15 MS. BIBLES: I'd now like to move to paragraph 5 of D547.

16 Q. And I'd like to ask you a question about paragraph 5 of your

17 Mladic statement.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: While this comes up on the screen, I would just

19 like to ask the witness about F16.

20 If I understood you correctly, in March 1995 you were not the

21 commander of the company in whose zone of responsibility that specific

22 position was on.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Why did you sign this statement with this

25 mistake?

Page 23505

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I spoke responsibly about

2 the unit's positions and the possibility due to the distance of whether

3 it was possible to shoot or not. So it was my subjective opinion about

4 the possibility of firing, and it was my assumption that this incident,

5 just like many other incidents, could have happened because of a stray

6 bullet or something.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not my question. I asked you why did you

8 sign this statement with this mistake in relation to your command or not

9 being in command?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was an oversight on my part. In

11 the final version of my statement, I did correct a few errors but that

12 one I missed, so it was only when I came to The Hague in the proofing I

13 drew Mr. Stojanovic's attention that this word is missing, not that at

14 that period I was not the commander. That's the problem.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then I state for the record that during

16 examination-in-chief this correction was not mentioned. Thank you.

17 MS. BIBLES:

18 Q. Now, directing your attention to --

19 JUDGE ORIE: If I could --

20 MS. BIBLES: Sorry.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue on this item, I'm perhaps also

22 addressing the Defence. Apparently in this part of the statement

23 something is filled in:

24 "Although during this period /I/ was the commander of the

25 company."

Page 23506

1 I wonder where the "I" comes from because the "although" suggests

2 that there is knowledge despite not being in command over there. The

3 "although" is otherwise unexplainable, and therefore I would invite the

4 parties to review and to see whether there may be any -- any explanation

5 in the original text which, of course, I cannot read myself, but at least

6 it is suggested that the "I" does not clearly appear in the original one

7 but textually we'll have to look at it.

8 Ms. Bibles, because it now becomes so much of a focus that we

9 should pay proper attention to it.

10 Please proceed.

11 MS. BIBLES: Perhaps we should go back to the section of F16.

12 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, in reading the B/C/S sentence, the first sentence

13 that has to do with the command of this unit. In B/C/S does it indicate

14 the subject of command, who it is, whether it's you or someone? Is it --

15 I guess what I'm asking is: Is this sentence - this first sentence - in

16 B/C/S grammatically correct?

17 JUDGE ORIE: What -- yes, we could ask the witness, but, as a

18 matter of fact, I announced that we should ask experts in language rather

19 than --

20 MS. BIBLES: Sorry.

21 JUDGE ORIE: But I do not mind if the witness answers the

22 question.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, did you have a look at your original?

25 Could you tell us whether in the third line of where we read F16, whether

Page 23507

1 it's -- as far as you are concerned, it's clear who was in command of the

2 company?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Serbian language this

4 sentence is confusing, because it says "although during this period was

5 the commander of the company," so it's nonsense. Although the sentence

6 should state, "Although during this period I was," or "I was not the

7 commander of the company." I felt that this was a typing error, and I

8 did draw Mr. Stojanovic's attention to this when we spoke about it at the

9 hotel. I didn't think that it would create any major problems, but I can

10 here clarify now that from my entire statement it is evident that I was

11 not at that command post throughout that whole period. And so this

12 sentence should correctly state: Although during this period I was not

13 the commander of the company. I think it's a grammatical error.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you have drawn the attention of

15 Mr. Stojanovic to that error?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, what did you do with that

18 information?

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct,

20 Your Honours. I felt that based on the contents of the paragraph that

21 you can see in front of you, you can clearly see that it is contradictory

22 because later in the same --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic --

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- paragraph it says

25 December 1994 until the end --

Page 23508

1 JUDGE ORIE: -- I'm going to stop you there. Another puzzle for

2 the Chamber where a witness clearly draws your attention to what he

3 considers to be a mistake and you leave it as it is and you leave it to

4 us then to read everything in context and then find the month of December

5 and then have to conclude that there was a mistake, whereas the witness

6 is clear that he has drawn your attention to it. It's coming closer and

7 closer to malpractice, Mr. Stojanovic. Please be aware of that.

8 Ms. Bibles, you may proceed.

9 MS. BIBLES:

10 Q. Going back now to paragraph 5 of your statement, I just want to

11 clarify a matter and it would be the -- unfortunately the bottom of

12 page 2 and the top of page 3 in the English.

13 Here you indicate that you completed your officer education on

14 26 June, 1992, and were appointed company commander at Mrkovici.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: 1992 or 1994, Madam Bibles?

16 MS. BIBLES: 1992, Your Honour. Or, I'm sorry, 1994. You're

17 absolutely correct.

18 Q. Do you stand by that statement in this -- in your Mladic

19 statement?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, the reason that I asked that question is that in

22 paragraph 4 of your signed Karadzic statement --

23 MS. BIBLES: Which perhaps we could take a look at 1D02051,

24 paragraph 4.

25 Q. -- you suggest or say that you finished your education on the

Page 23509

1 26th of June, 1994, and became the company commander in Mrkovici on

2 27 July, 1994. Is that -- which of the two statements is more correct

3 with respect to when you became the company commander?

4 A. I can say this: After I completed my education, I had about 20

5 days of time that I spent at the command of the 1st Romanija Brigade

6 until I was transferred. I cannot give you the exact date when I came to

7 Mrkovici. I cannot remember it. I cannot remember what day it was.

8 While waiting to be transferred, I and the chief of staff of the

9 1st Romanija, we toured some positions including the battalion command,

10 the company command at Mrkovica. It was summer. I don't know whether it

11 was already July. I couldn't really tell you precisely. So after the

12 last tour with the chief of staff, I was told that I would be transferred

13 to that company.

14 Q. Who did you take over for? Who was the prior company commander

15 that you replaced?

16 A. The person that I replaced was Mr. Blasko Rasevic.

17 Q. I'd next like to clarify some of your military experience that

18 may be relevant to this case.

19 MS. BIBLES: If we could go back to D547 and paragraph 1.

20 Q. Paragraph 1 of your statement describes that prior to the war you

21 lived in Blazuj, Ilidza municipality. Were you a member of the

22 Territorial Defence for Blazuj?

23 A. No. In 1991, in September, I began serving my regular military

24 service with the JNA Prokuplje, the Republic of Serbia. Until the

25 15th of May, 1992, I stayed there when I was returned together with a

Page 23510

1 number of other soldiers to Lukavica. In other words, I had no occasion

2 to be a member of any other armed forces save for the regular JNA. Upon

3 arrival in Lukavica, I stayed with the signals unit. There was a radio

4 relay station near the SRK command and we as soldiers maintained

5 communication between the Main Staff and the SRK command. It was at

6 Trdomici [phoen] hill nearby. After that, I asked to be reposted to my

7 native town of Blazuj. I was indeed sent there and joined the unit

8 comprising my friends, neighbours, and family members. I accompanied

9 them to the lines we held at the very beginning of the war. I'm not sure

10 I discussed it here, but I can tell you that we held the lines at the

11 foot of Igman at the same or about the same altitude as the quarry.

12 After that sometime in --

13 Q. Thank you. We'll go through the relevant portions with you. And

14 I just wanted to clarify then, in paragraph 2 when you say that you were

15 reassigned to the SRK, this is the reassignment you're talking about from

16 your mandatory service to the SRK?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And then you've described that you requested a transfer to the

19 Igman Brigade. Do you know when the Igman Brigade was created?

20 A. No, I don't know precisely.

21 Q. Do you know approximately?

22 A. You see, sometime during May 1992 combat activities began and

23 some units came into being; thus, I never inquired particularly about

24 this one. I really can't say when it was established.

25 Q. Do you know if it was formed from the Blazuj Territorial Defence?

Page 23511

1 A. I don't think so, because in Blazuj there was a JNA barracks. I

2 think the unit was formed from JNA members, at least those who stayed.

3 And then all other available men from the settlement itself joined.

4 Q. Now in paragraph 2 you describe that Dunjic was the commander of

5 your unit. Was this Major Velimir Dunjic?

6 A. Yes. At some point of time he commanded a brigade. I don't know

7 whether he was already in command when I joined the Igman Brigade or

8 afterwards, but I do know that he was one of the commanders who together

9 with me and my unit participated in certain combat activities. That is

10 the period I remember him from.

11 Q. Is it true that the Igman Brigade was one of the smallest

12 brigades in the SRK?

13 A. I don't know, perhaps.

14 MS. BIBLES: If we could see 65 ter 30877.

15 Q. Sir, this is a combat readiness report for the

16 Igman Light Infantry Brigade for the first half of 1993. Do you see the

17 description in the upper left side of the report on the state of combat

18 readiness?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And I can tell you that it's signed by Lieutenant-Colonel Cojic.

21 Would you like to look at the last page on the signature line?

22 A. No need. I do recall Lieutenant-Colonel Cojic. I recall his

23 last name although we never met. Since so much time has elapsed, I don't

24 remember him particularly well.

25 MS. BIBLES: If we could go to page 4 in both versions.

Page 23512

1 Q. While this is coming up, in the fist line of paragraph 3 of your

2 statement, you state:

3 "I became a member of the Igman Brigade Intervention Platoon with

4 the 4th Battalion in January 1993."

5 Now turning your attention to page 4 here, we see a listing of

6 the units that comprise the Igman Brigade in 1993. And I have a question

7 about which unit you were a part of. Were you a part of the

8 4th Infantry Battalion or were you part of, down at the bottom, the

9 Independent Intervention Company?

10 A. My unit belonged to the 4th Infantry Battalion in Blazuj. I'm

11 not aware of this other unit you referred to.

12 Q. While we're on page 4, just below the listing of these units is a

13 description of several brigade facilities which require manpower from the

14 brigade. I want to ask you about four of these. There is the Hadzici

15 maintenance and repair depot, the --

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Bibles.

17 MS. BIBLES: Yes, sorry.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you sure that we have the corresponding page

19 on the screen?

20 MS. BIBLES: Let's see. Ah, no.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

22 MS. BIBLES: We don't. Let's see. The English is correct, so I

23 believe we need to go perhaps back, if I remember everything correctly,

24 on the B/C/S. No. I'm sorry. We need to go to page 5 in B/C/S. My

25 apologies.

Page 23513

1 Q. Does that make more sense?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Yes. Okay. Now, then, going below the list that we were just

4 asking about, I want to just ask a couple of questions about these four

5 facilities: The Hadzici maintenance and repair depot; the Zunovnica

6 ammunition depot; and then barracks in Blazuj; and is it Usivak? Are

7 these all within the area of responsibility of the Igman Brigade?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In paragraphs 3 and 4 of your statement, you describe ABiH fire

10 on Hadzici and Ilidza. Were these four locations some of the targets of

11 that fire?

12 A. You see, as for Hadzici, in addition to the military facilities

13 you mentioned, the targets were all over the place. Hadzici is so

14 situated that it was exposed to shell fire, machine-gun fire from higher

15 up incessantly and randomly it seems to me. Specifically, the way I see

16 that shelling of Hadzici and Ilidza, I could not observe that one of

17 these facilities was hit in a particular moment in time. I only know

18 that both soldiers and civilians were often injured by fire coming from

19 Igman. Somewhere in my statement I mentioned it. Very well.

20 Q. I'd like to go back to talking about the intervention unit.

21 MS. BIBLES: But before I move on, I tender 65 ter 30877.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30877 receives number P6630,

24 Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: P6630 is admitted.

Page 23514

1 MS. BIBLES:

2 Q. Is it true that around the 31st of August, 1993, there was a

3 substantial reorganisation of the Igman Brigade?

4 A. Please clarify.

5 Q. Your statement explains that in September of 1993 you went to the

6 officer school in Banja Luka. Isn't it correct that at that same time

7 three intervention companies in the Igman Brigade were eliminated?

8 A. Yes. I do recall that when I left the Intervention Platoon of

9 the 4th Battalion, shortly afterwards the Intervention Platoon was

10 disbanded and the soldiers moved to other units. But that was not my

11 personal experience. I only heard about it because by that time I had

12 already gone to Banja Luka.

13 Q. All right.

14 MS. BIBLES: Perhaps it would be helpful to look at the order

15 reorganising the brigade for the next few questions. That would be

16 65 ter 30889.

17 Q. And, sir, while this comes to our screen, this was signed by

18 Colonel Cojic on 31 August, 1993. And again, can you see the upper

19 left-hand side where it lists the subject of this order?

20 A. Okay. I see it.

21 Q. Do you have any need to see the last page or the signature page

22 of this order before we go through it in more detail?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Turning to page 2 in both version, hopefully, we'll look at

25 point 6, and we see that it states:

Page 23515

1 "On 1 September, 1993, the following unit shall cease to exist:"

2 And it lists three intervention companies. The T or the

3 Tomo Veljancic Intervention Company, the Hadzici Intervention Company,

4 and the Blazuj Intervention Company. Which one of these intervention

5 companies were you a member?

6 A. The Blazuj Intervention Platoon.

7 Q. Were you familiar with the other two intervention companies?

8 A. I'm aware of them. I knew some people who were members of those

9 units. Perhaps not very closely, though.

10 Q. Turning to page 3 at point 7 in both versions --

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I --

12 MS. BIBLES: Oh, yes.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- before it disappears from the screen, I ask

14 the witness: We saw in the document a reference to the

15 Blazuj Intervention Company. Your answer was in relation to the

16 Blazuj Interference Platoon. Was it a platoon or a company?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a platoon. It had between

18 25 and 30 people, maybe even less. But, in any case, it was no company

19 but a platoon and it belonged to the 4th Blazuj Battalion.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And there was no Blazuj Intervention Company?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] None that I know of.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Because we see this term in this document, which

23 we have in front of us.

24 JUDGE ORIE: But could I -- in addition to that, I see two times

25 the word "ceta" and one time the word "vod," where apart from that I see

Page 23516

1 also on the first line "the brigade," which seems not to be translated or

2 at least -- could you slowly read the three lines aloud? Witness?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Item 6 you mean?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. To start at the second line and then to read

5 the second, third, and fourth line of that paragraph. So starting with

6 "interventa ceta," that's where I -- yes.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The intervention company of the

8 Tomo Veljancic Brigade.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Next line would be?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Hadzici Intervention Company

11 and the Blazuj Intervention Platoon. Those three units existed as part

12 of the Igman Brigade.

13 JUDGE ORIE: That seems to resolves the matter. Could the -- I

14 don't know who prepared this translation, but at least we would like to

15 have it reviewed and to be made more accurate.

16 Please proceed.

17 MS. BIBLES: Thank you.

18 Q. And then turning to page 3 at point 7, we read that:

19 "The T. Veljancic Intervention Company, the

20 Hadzici Intervention Company, and the Blazuj" -- well, I'm going to call

21 it a platoon for now, "Intervention Platoon, have made a vast

22 contribution through their work so far and their struggle for the freedom

23 of the Serbian people and the forming of Republika Srpska.

24 "I wish all members of these units good health and good luck in

25 combat in the new units of the VRS."

Page 23517

1 Did you receive a personal commendation for your work in the

2 Intervention Platoon in -- that would be consistent with this -- this

3 statement?

4 A. To be honest, I don't recall it because I went to Banja Luka for

5 schooling. I don't know whether my colleagues received this. I probably

6 did not, otherwise I would be able to recall it.

7 Q. Now, going to the first intervention company, the

8 Tomo Veljancic Intervention Company, do you know if the members of that

9 company were local or if they came from outside the SRK?

10 A. I think there was a number of locals in that company's structure.

11 I don't know how it was structured, though. But there were mainly young

12 guys who were fearless. For the most part in such intervention units,

13 the personnel was young. In terms of each of these units' structure, I'm

14 not aware of it. I know that in addition to us, the locals in the

15 Intervention Platoon, there were also some refugees from the federation,

16 from the district of Zenica and from Central Bosnia.

17 MS. BIBLES: Now, actually, if we could go back to page 2 just

18 below point 6.

19 Q. We see there that with respect to the Tomo Veljancic Intervention

20 Company, you see subsection a, you see that they are being disbanded and

21 that members from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia are being sent back

22 to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. So do you have any idea how many

23 men of that company may have come from the FRY?

24 A. No, I don't know how many came from the FRY. But I do know there

25 were several. I'm not certain of the figure, but I don't think there

Page 23518

1 were all too many.

2 Q. Are you aware whether the units' commander was known as

3 Branislav Gavrilovic or Brne?

4 A. Branislav Gavrilovic, aka, Brne. That was the name of that

5 unit's commander.

6 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, as I move on, I would tender 30889.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30889 receives number P6631,

9 Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

11 Before you continue, Ms. Bibles, I would like to hear from the

12 parties whether they wanted to discuss the scheduling issues at the end

13 of this session or early in the next session. I don't know where we

14 stand at this moment, whether there is already something to be discussed

15 or whether you would still need the next break.

16 MR. LUKIC: I could use next break, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps it's better to wait --

18 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: -- until after the break.

20 Yes, please proceed Ms. Bibles.

21 MS. BIBLES: Thank you.

22 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, do you know whether that unit was organised by

23 the Serbian Radical Party?

24 A. I'm not personally aware of that.

25 Q. Were you aware that Gavrilovic had received weapons from the

Page 23519

1 Republika Srpska police?

2 A. No. I can only discuss what I know from personal experience.

3 Probably something may have said something of the sort, but I don't know

4 about that.

5 Q. All right. Well let's take a look at a document.

6 MS. BIBLES: 65 ter 14627.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, is that to establish that those weapons

8 were actually provided by or received by?

9 MS. BIBLES: It's the nature of the weapons with respect to what

10 that --

11 JUDGE ORIE: I mean --

12 MS. BIBLES: -- the giving of the weapons would signify.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, if the witness doesn't know anything about

14 it, it's no need to further educate him on these kind of matters so that

15 he would learn what may have happened. If you have any useful questions

16 to put to him in this context, of course you are free to do so, but

17 sometimes there is a tendency of telling the witness what he doesn't know

18 nevertheless is true which is not something which the Chamber would

19 encourage.

20 MS. BIBLES:

21 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, is it -- was it an average thing or a normal

22 thing for pistols to be issued to soldiers or TO members by the police?

23 A. As far as I can see here, the date is the 11th of April, 1992.

24 And I'm trying to recall when one might call "normal" at the time. I'm

25 trying to figure out whether it was according to procedure or not. It

Page 23520

1 was at the beginning of the war, and speaking from this place now I would

2 say that it was probably not a correct thing to do. But at the time it

3 may well have been. But then, that's my personal view.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, normality is not really a factual issue.

5 MS. BIBLES: All right.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

7 MS. BIBLES:

8 Q. We'll move away from this document for the time being. Were you

9 aware in 1992 that Gavrilovic's units trained a number of Serbian

10 volunteers who fought in Sarajevo?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. What was your understanding of the reputation of Gavrilovic?

13 A. Well, at the very beginning of the war, I remember him enjoying

14 the reputation of an intrepid soldier surrounded by a very strong team.

15 There were no particular rumours, but he was just known as someone who

16 did something at a certain point in time which provided him with a

17 certain reputation in my mind and in the mind of others in terms of his

18 warriorship, so to speak. That's all. But there's nothing more that I

19 could say in particular.

20 Q. You prefaced your answer with "at the beginning of the war." Did

21 you come to learn more about his reputation or did his reputation change

22 throughout the course of the war?

23 A. Could you please be a bit more specific as to changed in what

24 way.

25 Q. I'll go to some very specific questions. But first I'll check

Page 23521

1 the time. In paragraph 3 of your statement you explain that you took

2 part in an operation in 1993. Was that also referred to as Lukavac 93?

3 A. 1993. Yes.

4 Q. Were you aware that Gavrilovic and his men also took part in this

5 operation?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did his unit work in co-operation or co-ordination with your

8 intervention unit or platoon?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were you aware that Gavrilovic's unit took prisoners during this

11 operation?

12 A. Yes, his unit and my unit both had prisoners specifically in that

13 fight.

14 Q. Do you know whether Gavrilovic's men murdered prisoners in this

15 operation?

16 A. I don't know. All I know is that we handed our prisoners over to

17 the brigade command -- or, rather, the military police escorted them.

18 We're talking about three soldiers who were a Serb, a Croat, and a Muslim

19 by ethnicity.

20 Q. Did you hear anything about what happened to prisoners that had

21 been taken by Gavrilovic and his men?

22 A. I think that they were also handed over to the brigade command,

23 but I don't know that personally. All I know is that the soldiers that

24 we had captured were handed over for interrogation. I don't know what

25 happened to them later. One of those prisoners I know was called Pero.

Page 23522

1 I cannot remember his last name. I know that he actually switched sides.

2 From our side he switched to the B&H army. I don't know where that was.

3 Q. I think you're referring to -- I'm sorry. You're referring to

4 one of your prisoners or a prisoner of your platoon?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I put --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- a question.

9 Do I have to understand that Pero was part of your army and you

10 arrested him as a prisoner before he switched over?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. He was a member of the

12 B&H Army. He was captured and then taken to the brigade command, but

13 then a few years later, perhaps, I heard that he escaped. I don't know

14 where and when. I wouldn't be able to say that.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: So he was not switching over from your army. He

16 just escaped as a prisoner and went to the BiH.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, I'm looking at the clock.

21 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

22 We would take a break of 20 minutes, Mr. Maksimovic.

23 And meanwhile, Ms. Bibles, you thought it would be helpful to

24 look at the order reorganising the brigade for a few questions. You

25 referred to it by 65 ter 30889 but that is now admitted as P6631. That's

Page 23525

1 the times and the dates.

2 And to use our time as efficiently as possible to ask the witness

3 to be escorted into the courtroom now right away. I asked that the

4 witness be escorted into the courtroom right away.

5 [The witness takes the stand]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Maksimovic, Ms. Bibles will now continue her

7 cross-examination.

8 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, to finish the area that we were discussing prior

10 to the break, you mentioned a prisoner who you knew named only Pero. Was

11 that the first name? You nodded.

12 A. I'm not sure. I don't know if his first name was that or if it

13 was his nickname. I really couldn't say.

14 Q. If I suggested a last name of Koblar, would that refresh your

15 recollection at all?

16 A. It's possible, yes.

17 Q. It's possible his name was Pero Koblar?

18 A. Yes, it's possible.

19 MS. BIBLES: If we could have 65 ter 30888 brought to the screen,

20 please.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Maksimovic, this is a statement given by Pero Koblar.

22 I'll ask you to look at the identifiers in the top of the first page,

23 please. Now you -- prior to the break, you also described that he

24 escaped, and you see in the introduction line here that part of his

25 statement has to do with an escape. Does this appear to be same

Page 23526

1 individual that you were describing prior to the break?

2 A. Very probably, yes. Perica Koblar, yes, I think that that was

3 his name.

4 MS. BIBLES: If we could turn to page 8 in the English and page 9

5 in the B/C/S. If we look at -- I believe it's the bottom of the page in

6 the English version and the top of the page in B/C/S.

7 Q. Koblar describes being questioned in Gavrilovic's presence. Do

8 you see that reference at the top of the page 9 in the B/C/S?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then down below he describes, without going into the entire

11 paragraph -- but one of Gavrilovic's men on the left of Gavrilovic, or

12 known by Brne, asked a prisoner named Zika in which operations he had

13 participated. And Zika answered 11 -- I think it's Plavih, the soldier

14 raised his AP and fired a burst on Zika. So my question to you is: Were

15 you aware of this unit murdering prisoners during this operation?

16 A. No, I was not aware of this. After capturing Golo Brdo, my unit

17 immediately received the assignment to go to the right to Stupnik. The

18 action was still underway so then we continued on our way. Once we

19 captured those trig points, we heard about fierce infantry fighting that

20 was being waged behind our back, practically. This is what we heard and

21 we received information that our unit, which had taken up the line at

22 Golo Brdo, had been attacked by the B&H army and that they were holding

23 up well. So we went in that direction. So I definitely don't know

24 anything about these other things here.

25 Q. Now you -- you had heard about a Pero and you now believe that is

Page 23527

1 this individual, Mr. Koblar. How did you hear about Pero Koblar?

2 A. I don't know now whether that was while he was actually taken

3 prisoner. I don't know. I didn't capture him. I don't know which of

4 the men did it. I found out that one of them was called Pero. It kind

5 of leaked among the soldiers. Somebody took him. I don't know who it

6 was. And then when we consolidated our lines, we went to our next

7 assignment.

8 Q. Do you have any reason to dispute the account of the murder that

9 you read here in Mr. Koblar's statement?

10 A. I didn't read the entire statement. I see the beginning here. I

11 have nothing to say definitely about it. I cannot talk about things that

12 I don't know anything about.

13 Q. It appears we will not finish with your testimony today. Would

14 you agree to take this statement with you over the weekend, it is a

15 rather long statement, but to see if that assists you any in assessing

16 this -- this information?

17 A. It's not a problem at all. I can read it. You mean you would

18 like me to state my view about the truthfulness of the statement? Of

19 course, it's something that I cannot do, but I can read it.

20 Q. I would ask you to read the whole statement and then I may have

21 some additional -- or I would have some additional questions for you on

22 Monday. So we can --

23 A. Very well.

24 Q. We can move on --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Bibles.

Page 23528

1 MS. BIBLES: Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Will you provide the witness with the statement

3 during this hearing, or would he receive it through the intervention of

4 the Victims and Witness Section?

5 MS. BIBLES: The -- we can print this out at the conclusion of

6 the court session and give it to the court usher to give to the witness.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, first, give it for inspection to the Defence

8 and then give it to the witness.

9 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's proceed as you suggest.

11 Please proceed now.

12 MS. BIBLES:

13 Q. Well, we'll shift directions and go back to some more details in

14 your statement. From the 20 -- well, sometime in the summer of 1994 to

15 December 1994, you were in the 1st Romanija Brigade of the SRK and you've

16 described that you were the company commander at Mrkovici. And that's

17 described in paragraphs 5 through 9 of your statement. In paragraph 6

18 you describe information that you had received about something that

19 occurred in February of 1994. I want to be very clear that you were not

20 in the 1st Romanija Brigade in February of 1994?

21 A. No, no.

22 Q. And it's correct that you were not anywhere near Sarajevo,

23 actually, on the 5th of November, 1994?

24 A. I was not near Sarajevo, no.

25 Q. So it's true, isn't it, then, that you have no direct or personal

Page 23529

1 knowledge of the events of the 5th of February, 1994, about Markale

2 market?

3 A. I don't have any personal knowledge. I know only what I heard.

4 MS. BIBLES: If we could go to D547.

5 Q. And look at the end of paragraph 5 in your statement. With

6 respect to your area of responsibility as company commander of the

7 Mrkovici Company of the 1st Romanija Brigade, is it accurate to say that

8 your area of responsibility did not extend back actually to the village

9 of Mrkovici or Radava?

10 A. The villages of Mrkovici and Radava were in the depth of the

11 territory. Members of my unit were actually the inhabitants of those two

12 villages. The area of responsibility encompassed, if I can remember

13 correctly now, about 12 trenches or so belonging to my unit.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please go to the next page in English. We wanted

15 to see the last part of paragraph 5.

16 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Am I reading your answer correctly, that your area of

18 responsibility in this position was -- would this have been the

19 confrontation line?

20 A. I didn't understand you quite, I'm afraid.

21 Q. Your -- you've just testified at line -- well, now 84, starting

22 at line 13:

23 "The area of responsibility encompassed, if I can remember

24 correctly now, about 12 trenches or so belonging to my unit."

25 Can you describe to us what that means?

Page 23530

1 A. These were points of resistance in a connected system of defence.

2 It was my company's responsibility to take care of those 12 or 13

3 trenches that were linked with cross-trenches. They were well fortified

4 and of key importance to the villages of Mrkovici and Radava and the part

5 of Republika Srpska that was ours, Blazuj, Hadzici, Ilidza. The road

6 connecting those parts with the rest of Republika Srpska actually passed

7 not far from the lines that were covered by my unit. It was about some

8 50 or a bit more, a hundred metres as the crow flies, between our main

9 road and the front line. The trenches were well fortified.

10 In the depth of the territory, if you allow me to explain -

11 meaning the villages of Mrkovici, Radava, what else, Mocevci [phoen] -

12 that's where these villages were.

13 Q. Now moving to page 4 of your statement in the section below F16,

14 you describe adjoining units in a way that's a little confusing. So I'd

15 like to go over those again to see if I understand. You used in this

16 section --

17 MS. BIBLES: And this would be in both versions the third full

18 paragraph down that begins with, "I further want to specify ..."

19 Q. You describe the adjoining units based on left or right. Is it

20 all right with you if we go through these and try instead of using "left"

21 and "right" to use "west" or "east" of your position at -- at the line at

22 Mrkovici? So from your position at Mrkovici, let's first go west. From

23 your position in the 1st Romanija Brigade there going west, wasn't the

24 next unit over the Kosevo Brigade?

25 A. The Vogosca Kosevo Battalion. It was mostly the

Page 23531

1 Kosevo Battalion; that's putting it more precisely. Up there we refer to

2 that unit as the Vogosca Brigade because we were practically the last

3 unit in the 1st Romanija that had a neighbour to the right, another

4 larger unit that was not directly part of it. That's to the west.

5 Q. And then actually further west from Kosevo -- the Kosevo area,

6 would actually be the Vogosca Brigade?

7 A. I think that it was all one unit. Perhaps it was the

8 4th Sarajevo Brigade. I -- I don't know exactly. I'm not sure how it

9 was called. I think it was called the 4th Sarajevo Brigade.

10 Q. Could it have -- I'm sorry. Could it have been the 3rd?

11 A. It was a long time ago.

12 Q. Reading your statement, it seems that you're familiar with a

13 location known as Spicasta Stijena, which was also known as Sharpstone.

14 Would you agree with that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And is it true that with the exception of one night and maybe a

17 couple of days in 1994, this location was held by the VRS from 1992 to

18 1995?

19 A. Yes. We or the VRS held positions there with some brief

20 interruptions. On several occasions, those positions were taken by the

21 enemy.

22 Q. Is it correct that Sharpstone, this location, is an elevated

23 point which allows good views of the eastern part of the city of

24 Sarajevo?

25 A. There is a good view from the feature of the village of Sedrenik

Page 23532

1 and further afield towards the city of Sarajevo itself. However, it was

2 not the highest trig point in the area of responsibility, or at least not

3 in that part.

4 Q. Okay. But -- but the primary point, I guess, is what you could

5 see from Sharpstone. And I believe --

6 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has --

7 MS. BIBLES:

8 Q. -- you have answered that --

9 JUDGE ORIE: -- answered that question, I think.

10 MS. BIBLES: Yes, yes.

11 Q. Now, despite the fact that you have no personal knowledge of the

12 incident on the 6th of March, 1995, or F16, I would like to ask a couple

13 of questions about the more general comments that you made while

14 discussing this incident in your statement.

15 Now you -- in your statement, you've estimated a thousand metres

16 between the Serbian positions and the victim's location. I'd like to ask

17 you about that. Is it true that you were never provided the specific

18 details of the location of the victim's location?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, the witness did not give an estimation.

20 He said it was more than a thousand metres and he did not present that as

21 an estimate but as knowledge.

22 MS. BIBLES: Oh, I'll go back into that.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

24 MS. BIBLES: Thank you.

25 Q. And how did you come up with the distance of more than a thousand

Page 23533

1 metres?

2 A. I know the area and I also saw some photographs. My conclusion

3 was that the distance was rather great. In the Karadzic case, the

4 Defence team provided me with some photographs taken from Spicasta

5 Stijena. There was information marked on them and it was stated that

6 some of the incidents took place at a distance of over 1.000 metres.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could I intervene for a moment.

8 Do I understand that you never measured specifically on a map or

9 otherwise that distance and that it's just your conclusion based on your

10 knowledge of the terrain?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Specifically, I couldn't make any

12 measurements because I wasn't there.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Whether you could or not, you didn't do it. That's

14 what I'm asking you.

15 Ms. Bibles, and I'm also looking at you, Mr. Stojanovic, it's of

16 no use to further explore what in the view of a witness the distance

17 would have been if there are maps. The only thing -- and even so,

18 irrespective of whether the witness knew exactly where the victim was,

19 it's just of no use as long as we have maps. So let's move on and listen

20 to evidence which gives a better factual basis for whatever.

21 Please proceed.

22 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour. I was just clarifying that

23 he had not -- he had not mapped this -- he had not taken other measures.

24 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, one of the questions with respect to your

25 statement in this particular area has to do with what you were trying to

Page 23534

1 say about the weapons or the personnel who were available at Sharpstone.

2 Now, I'll try to go to the core of the matter. Isn't it true

3 that the SRK and the 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade did, in fact, have

4 weapons and personnel who could fire with accuracy at or over a thousand

5 metres?

6 A. A unit such as a corps would probably have all assets available

7 to it as envisaged by the establishment structure.

8 Q. And again, you were not -- we've established that you were not in

9 this company during any part of 1995 and would not have specific

10 knowledge as to who or what equipment was present during that 1995

11 time-period?

12 A. I was not a member of that unit, so I can't discuss it. I don't

13 know.

14 MS. BIBLES: Mr. President, at this point I would be shifting to

15 another topic. I'm looking at the clock, and this may be a good time to

16 rest for the day.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll adjourn for the day, Mr. Maksimovic.

18 We'd like to see you back on Monday, the 7th of July, at 9.30 in

19 the morning. Ms. Bibles is aware that she has another 50 minutes

20 available for cross-examination. I would like to instruct you that you

21 should not speak or communicate in whatever way with whomever about your

22 testimony whether already given or still to be given. Now, you will be

23 provided with a copy of the statement.

24 Has it been presented to the Defence already?

25 Mr. Usher, could you please assist and show -- oh, is it printed