140711ED

Page 23888

1 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

3 Q. Good morning, sir.

4 A. Good morning.

5 MR. TRALDI: Could we start by calling up 65 ter 30955, page 31.

6 This is another portion of Mr. Kecmanovic's report for the Kvocka case.

7 Q. While it's coming up, sir, yesterday you testified that it was

8 your impression that VRS forces randomly shelled Sarajevo from the

9 surrounding hills; right?

10 A. And I made a correction regarding that issue.

11 MR. TRALDI: And for this document, we will have page 31 in the

12 English and the B/C/S lacks that page.

13 Now --

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The B/C/S can be removed from the screen,

15 I think.

16 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's page 31 you're asking for?

18 MR. TRALDI: Yes, and that's the correct page.

19 Q. This is a part of the report which you drafted; correct?

20 A. Can I have it in B/C/S, please?

21 Q. This is the portion that we don't have the B/C/S original in the

22 systems. So unless you have it in your possession, we do not have the

23 B/C/S of this section. So if I can ask again, this is a portion of the

24 report that you drafted; correct?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 23889

1 Q. And it's undated but it was drafted several years after the war;

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you'd spent the intervening years living in Belgrade; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, under the heading, "The Sarajevo tragedy," at the bottom of

7 the page in English, you are discussing the situation of Sarajevo Serbs

8 and you write as follows:

9 "But as soon as the front lines were established around Sarajevo,

10 they actually became victims of a twofold terror. The outside terror of

11 their ethnic kin who randomly showered them with shells from the

12 surrounding hills."

13 And then you make allegations about mistreatment of Serbs in

14 Sarajevo. So my question is: In your report, drafted several years

15 after the war, you presented the random shelling of Sarajevo by VRS

16 forces as a fact, didn't you?

17 A. I made a correction regarding that in the previous proceedings.

18 Q. So this report contains your impressions rather than facts about

19 what happened? Or did you believe it when you drafted the report to be a

20 fact?

21 A. Those were my impressions.

22 Q. Now, you also received reports about the heavy shelling of

23 Sarajevo at the Bosnian Presidency; correct?

24 A. It was something we experienced because I was in Sarajevo. It

25 was not a matter that was dealt with by the reports received by the

Page 23890

1 Presidency.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I again ask you now to answer the

3 questions. You've stated already that you lived there, that you

4 experienced it. The question now was whether you also received reports

5 about the heavy shelling. It's of no use to say that you experienced it

6 because you've told us that already. It's of no use not to answer the

7 question. The question was whether you also received reports. And this

8 is one of my last warnings. Otherwise, we'll have to really -- we have

9 to take a different route in your testimony.

10 I mean, you came here and we fully acknowledge the importance of

11 your testimony for the Defence but if you refuse to directly answer

12 questions that are put to you, and if you again and again stress what you

13 want to say rather than to answer a question, this might have

14 consequences for the weight to be given to your testimony and even

15 perhaps for whether we want to further hear your testimony. Let that be

16 clear to you.

17 You've stated that you experienced it. Now the question is

18 whether you also received reports. Would you please answer that

19 question.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 30947. Page 1 in both

22 languages.

23 Q. Now, these are -- this is the transcript from the 114th session

24 of the Bosnian Presidency on the 9th of June, 1992. You attended that

25 session; correct?

Page 23891

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. On page 1 in both languages, right at the beginning, we see

3 General Halilovic briefing the Presidency and he states --

4 A. I apologise. Can we go to the very top of the transcript so as

5 to be able to see whether I was present during this session? Because

6 I didn't attend them all.

7 Q. Well, you've just testified that you attended it but if we look

8 at page 10 in the B/C/S version, I think we'll see your name. We don't

9 have a full attendee list here on page 1. And that's your name,

10 Kecmanovic, right between Izetbegovic and Halilovic; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. If we could go back to page 1, General Halilovic states in the

13 second sentence:

14 "First, this artillery fire which was opened at the city during

15 the last 70 hours, non-stop, as far as we were able to work out, at the

16 city of Sarajevo regardless of what devastation results it had, there is

17 a revolt of the people to resist?"

18 Do you see that text?

19 A. I see it.

20 Q. Artillery fire had been particularly heavy for the few days

21 before the 9th of June; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, the translation is only partial, and

24 the original is complete. I'd propose that we upload as 65 ter 30947A

25 B/C/S version that corresponds to the partial translation and I'd ask

Page 23892

1 that an MFI number be reserved for when we've done that.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if there is any other context need,

3 Mr. Lukic, I take it that you'll make proposals for that purpose. Yes.

4 Madam Registrar, could we reserve a number for what will be an

5 excerpt of the -- of the minutes of the BiH Presidency meeting held on

6 the 9th of June, 1992.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Reserve number for document 30947A would be -- is

8 P6660, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

10 MR. TRALDI:

11 Q. Now, sir, I want to turn to the pre-war political events you

12 discussed during direct examination. You mentioned one specific session

13 of the Bosnian Assembly in paragraph 8 of your statement, the session on

14 14 and 15 October 1991. Do you recall that session?

15 A. Not very precisely, although I was in attendance.

16 Q. And you don't mention in your statement that you were there

17 yourself, do you?

18 A. I can't recall precisely whether I attended the whole of the

19 session because I was under no obligation to do so. I could be present,

20 though, without the right of vote, in the capacity of party president.

21 Q. Now, you say in your statement that your party, afterwards, "said

22 it was against the Muslim-Croat coalition making decisions that

23 contravened the views of the Serbian side."

24 That is all you say in your statement about this Assembly

25 session; correct?

Page 23893

1 A. The position of my party was to object one-sided decisions of any

2 of the three sides, in the tripartite bodies of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 Q. Well, it appears you're referring to a two-decided decision, but

4 regardless, my question was: That is all you say about this session in

5 your statement; correct?

6 MR. LUKIC: If I may.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

8 MR. LUKIC: The portion of the statement should be put on the

9 screen so this witness can check. He cannot know by heart the whole

10 statement.

11 JUDGE ORIE: But then of course you need to --

12 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] --

13 JUDGE ORIE: If the question is whether that's the only thing,

14 then you should put the whole. But I think it would perhaps be good to

15 have the relevant portion on the screen, Mr. Lukic. To that extent

16 I fully agree with you, but it doesn't resolve the problem. Please

17 proceed.

18 MR. TRALDI: I'm happy to have that paragraph called up. We need

19 paragraph 8 of D556. And I notice the witness no longer has the B/C/S

20 hard copy that was provided to him yesterday. But I'm happy for him to

21 be provided with a clean one again.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then he'll be provided with it again.

23 MR. TRALDI:

24 Q. Sir, paragraph 8 is on, I believe, page 4 of the B/C/S. And

25 page 5 of the English.

Page 23894

1 A. Which paragraph?

2 Q. 8. So I'll put to you again: It's correct, isn't it, that all

3 you say about this Assembly session is that your party said it was

4 against the Muslim-Croat coalition making decisions that contravened the

5 views of the Serbian side and you explained why you took that position.

6 That's all you say about this session; right?

7 A. In the second sentence of this paragraph, you can find what

8 I just referred to. It was in keeping with our principled approach that

9 the three ruling parties must refrain from making any moves on their own.

10 That is to say that a three-way consensus had to be behind all decisions.

11 Q. Again, that is all you say about this session in your statement;

12 correct?

13 I see you've nodded but you have to articulate your answer for

14 the record.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, Radovan Karadzic also spoke at this session, didn't he?

17 A. Yes, as far as I remember.

18 Q. Toward the end of the debate, he made a shocking statement that

19 the Muslim people would perish in the war that would be provoked by the

20 independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina against the will of the Serbs,

21 didn't he?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you did not consider that relevant to mention in your

24 statement for this case, did you?

25 A. It was quoted multiple times. It was very well known, and

Page 23895

1 I found it unnecessary to stress that particular fact yet again.

2 MR. TRALDI: Now, just to have the record completely clear, I'm

3 going to ask Ms. Stewart to play a clip from P2004. For the record it

4 will start at 9.29 and end at 9.56 of that exhibit. My understanding is

5 the booths have been provided with a transcript of this portion of the

6 video.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And then you'll put questions to the witness about

8 it?

9 MR. TRALDI: I will.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because just to look at it, that it happened

11 seems to be not very much in dispute. If it is about the speech

12 delivered by Mr. Karadzic.

13 MR. TRALDI: Just to remind the booths, the portion we are

14 playing will start on page 3 in the transcript in both languages.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And we have to then play it twice, Mr. Traldi.

16 MR. TRALDI: I believe it was confirmed for when it was played

17 and introduced into evidence.

18 JUDGE ORIE: If that is the case, we can play it one time only.

19 Please proceed.

20 [Video-clip played]

21 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... it is not good what you are

22 doing. This is the road that you want Bosnia and Herzegovina to take,

23 the same highway of hell and suffering that Slovenia and Croatia went

24 through. Don't think you won't take Bosnia and Herzegovina to hell and

25 Muslim people in possible extinction. Because Muslim people will not be

Page 23896

1 able to defend itself if it comes to war here. Please, I know these are

2 serious words."

3 MR. TRALDI: That's the end of the clip.

4 Q. Sir, I do have some brief questions for you about that clip.

5 First, that's the statement that we were just discussing; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You said yesterday, during direct examination, that Serbs in

8 Bosnia were aware of what happened in Croatia and concerned about the

9 change in the Croatian constitution in 1990. Now, a reference to the

10 highway to hell, and the path to death and destruction that Croatia and

11 Slovenia went through, Muslims and Croats in the Assembly and elsewhere

12 would have been aware of the consequences of the war that by then had

13 broken out in Croatia, wouldn't they?

14 A. I apologise, I did not understand the question.

15 Q. I'll try to ask it more simply. By the time he gave this speech,

16 Muslims and Croats in Bosnia would have been aware of the consequences of

17 the war in Croatia for the Croatian population there, wouldn't they?

18 A. For both the Serbs and Croats, yes.

19 Q. And the impact on them of Mr. Karadzic's words would have been,

20 as you described it, shocking, wouldn't it, and terrifying?

21 A. I was present when Karadzic spoke these words, and it was meant

22 to be cautionary.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, in that report, you used the word

24 "shocking." The question is whether the impact indeed would be shocking

25 for the population listening to it.

Page 23897

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can say that it was a shocking

2 warning, so as to include both.

3 MR. TRALDI:

4 Q. And a terrifying one, right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, you said in your statement that your party expressed its

7 opposition to making decisions without the consent of one of the

8 constituent peoples. Did your party also express its opposition to the

9 idea of one of the constituent people of Bosnia-Herzegovina perishing in

10 a war?

11 A. It did not have to do with individual political statements. It

12 had to be applied to the principle of voting and decision-making.

13 Q. So do I understand your evidence to be that your party, after

14 this shocking statement, took no position on it but opposed what the

15 Muslim and Croat coalition had done at that session; is that right?

16 A. We opposed one-sided decisions. As for the individual statements

17 of politicians, sometimes we reacted, at other times we did not. It

18 wasn't a matter of principle. We explicitly stood for what we -- what

19 I stated in paragraph 8. We were in favour of all decisions being

20 reached by consensus.

21 Q. I understand that as a good politician, you're explaining to us

22 your party's principles. What I'm asking is: Did you take a position on

23 this specific statement?

24 A. I'm not sure. I don't know. I can't say either way.

25 Q. Now, the Bosnian Serbs also formed a separate Assembly in

Page 23898

1 response to what happened at this Assembly session; that's right, isn't

2 it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you don't mention that in your statement, do you?

5 A. The establishment of the Assembly, no.

6 Q. Your party took no position on the forming of a Serb Assembly,

7 did it?

8 A. We considered that to be a logical consequence of the outvoting

9 that happened in the joint parliament.

10 Q. And you, yourself, attended the founding session of that

11 Assembly; right?

12 A. Yes, as a guest.

13 Q. And a plebiscite, as you testified about yesterday, was also

14 organised in response to what had happened on the 14th and 15th; correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. And you didn't oppose that plebiscite; right?

17 A. Do you mean personally or as a party?

18 Q. As a party.

19 A. I believe we didn't.

20 Q. And you're aware, aren't you, that Serbs and non-Serbs were

21 issued different coloured ballots?

22 A. I don't remember that. I can't really say either way. If you'll

23 allow me, I would like to give a brief explanation.

24 Q. At the moment, I'm interested in the question I've just asked.

25 A. Yes.

Page 23899

1 MR. TRALDI: And so let's pull up 65 ter 07941.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the English translation is not

3 released.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi?

5 MR. TRALDI: I believe we are in the process of remedying that,

6 Your Honour. I just ask your indulgence for a minute.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

8 MR. TRALDI: And I'm told it's been released now.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because it was on your list, so therefore it's

10 to be expected, but we now have it.

11 MR. TRALDI: It's -- yes.

12 Q. And so we can see the original on the left side in blue; right?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 MR. TRALDI: And could we have 65 ter 07942?

15 THE REGISTRAR: English translation not released, Your Honour.

16 MR. TRALDI: It is now.

17 Q. And we can see this ballot in yellow; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And we can also see without going through it in detail that there

20 is different text on this ballot, that there is less text on this ballot

21 than the one before; correct?

22 A. I've just read what it says here on this yellow paper. Could you

23 please return the other ballot, the white or blue one, the red or blue

24 one.

25 Q. The blue is 07941. There is more text on this one by comparison;

Page 23900

1 right?

2 A. That's right.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we have the English translation back? Thank

4 you.

5 MR. TRALDI:

6 Q. And for instance, the references to the Serb people in this blue

7 ballot are absent from the yellow ballot that we just looked at, aren't

8 they?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. I'd put to you that these different coloured ballots in the

11 plebiscite were also not mentioned in your statement; right?

12 A. I wasn't aware of this.

13 Q. I'd put to you that this was widely known at the time. You were

14 a member of and active in Bosnian politics, weren't you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you know Radovan Karadzic was asked about this on video?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, the last question and answer are

18 ambiguous. You did put to the witness that this, being the two different

19 ballot papers, was widely known at the time.

20 Witness, when you answered yes, did you acknowledge that this was

21 widely known at the time?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know about it. Now, if it

23 was widely known, I would assume that I would have supposed to have known

24 it but I wasn't aware of these two different ballots.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So the answer to the first part of the question is:

Page 23901

1 I couldn't tell you. And the answer to the second part, then, must be

2 about a yes that you were a member of an active -- you were active in

3 Bosnian politics. You confirm that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

6 MR. TRALDI:

7 Q. Now, did you know that Mr. Karadzic was interviewed about the

8 plebiscite, including about the different coloured ballots?

9 A. I don't remember that.

10 Q. Can I take it that you also don't remember your party taking any

11 position on the plebiscite being administered differently to members of

12 different ethnic groups?

13 A. Perhaps now would be a good moment for me to describe briefly

14 what my party did, the party that I led, and our position on the

15 plebiscite.

16 JUDGE ORIE: No, we would like you to answer the question. If at

17 the very end there is any need to address any matter which is directly

18 related to a question, you have an opportunity to do so, but at this

19 moment, you're invited to focus on the question put to you by Mr. Traldi.

20 MR. TRALDI:

21 Q. Would it be useful for me to ask that question again?

22 A. Please go ahead.

23 Q. Can I take it that you also don't remember your party taking any

24 position on the plebiscite being administered differently to members of

25 different ethnic groups?

Page 23902

1 A. I'm certain that we did not take any position on that.

2 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender these two ballots,

3 65 ter 07941 and 07942.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Under one number or two numbers? Madam Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 7941 receives number P6661 and

6 document 7942 receives number P6662, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: P6661 and P6662 are admitted.

8 MR. TRALDI:

9 Q. Around this time, Serbian autonomous regions were also declared;

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you mentioned this on direct examination, but it's not in

13 your statement either; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You did, at the time, however, publicly express concern about the

16 establishment of SAOs in areas where Serbs were a minority because you

17 believed those would lead to interethnic tensions, didn't you?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. Now, your party, the SRSJ, was one of several multi-ethnic

20 political parties in Bosnia; right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Your policies put you in opposition to all the ethnic nationalist

23 parties, the Serbian SDS, Croatian HDZ, and Muslim SDA; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You discuss one of those, the SDA, in detail in your statement

Page 23903

1 and you were asked about them again during direct examination. By the

2 time of the elections in 1990, however, all three parties were

3 essentially mono-ethnic and running on nationalist platforms; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And ethnic nationalism was already a political force in the

6 former Yugoslavia before that, in all three ethnic communities?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You talked about Muslim nationalism a bit during direct

9 examination. I'll just look at one example of Serb nationalism out of

10 many. Vojislav Seselj, who studied at the University of Sarajevo while

11 you were on the faculty, had become a prominent nationalist figure by

12 this time, hadn't he?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 30965? This is an interview

15 with Mr. Seselj as reprinted in one of his books, "Politics as a

16 challenge to the conscience." And the interview is dated 1989, the

17 18th of April. Once it's come up I'll ask for page 6 in both languages.

18 Q. And we see in the middle of the page in both languages someone

19 represented with the initials MN ask Seselj how the state should be

20 created. Do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, turning to page 7 in the English, and I believe also in the

23 B/C/S, in the last paragraph before the initials NN appear at the next

24 question, Mr. Seselj opines on the borders of Serbia and he says:

25 "The present core Serbia, Vojvodina, Kosovo and Metohija,

Page 23904

1 Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina" --

2 A. My apologies. Where can I find that?

3 Q. The top of the page in the B/C/S, second sentence.

4 A. Yes, I can see it now.

5 Q. I'll start again.

6 "The present core Serbia, Vojvodina, Kosovo and Metohija,

7 Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Macedonia, Dubrovnik, Dalmatia, Lika,

8 Kordun, Banija, Eastern Slavonia and Baranja, should all be within the

9 borders of Serbia."

10 This is nationalist rhetoric; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you mentioned the reaction that you thought Serbs had had to

13 the republishing of the Islamic Declaration. Now, the

14 Islamic Declaration doesn't mention Bosnia and Herzegovina, does it?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Mr. Seselj, on the other hand, mentions Bosnia and Herzegovina

17 and says it should be part of Serbia; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 30965.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, I didn't look yet whether this is an

21 excerpt or I take it it's not the whole of the book?

22 MR. TRALDI: No, no, no. It's this interview. It's an excerpt

23 from a chapter as I recall.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I see it's 7 pages in English.

25 Mr. Lukic, any objections?

Page 23905

1 MR. LUKIC: No.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?

3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30965 receives number P6663,

4 Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ORIE: P6663 is admitted into evidence.

6 MR. TRALDI:

7 Q. Now, I want to turn now to the Cutileiro Plan, and you were

8 familiar with that; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You attended meetings chaired by Mr. Cutileiro in Sarajevo?

11 A. Not all of them. From time to time my party was invited to join

12 the talks.

13 Q. So you attended some of the meetings held in Sarajevo?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You did not, however, attend the sessions of the committee in

16 Lisbon; right?

17 A. I was supposed to travel to Lisbon. However, the flight was

18 cancelled.

19 Q. So you did not attend the session; right?

20 A. In Lisbon, no.

21 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 30951? This is an opinion piece

22 written by Mr. Kecmanovic on 26 February 1992. And we'll zoom in on the

23 bottom left-hand part of the page in the B/C/S. I'm looking at the end

24 of the first paragraph.

25 Q. At the time, you wrote as follows:

Page 23906

1 "The Lisbon proposal will not, as claimed by some, destroy the

2 sovereignty of BH. Instead it is the most realistic way of ensuring its

3 stability. The radical circles of the SDS are seeking to sever parts of

4 BH with the predominantly Serbian population from the republic and

5 establish new states."

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can the B/C/S be enlarged with respect to the

7 first paragraph?

8 MR. TRALDI:

9 Q. And you can see SDS and BiH right above each other on the

10 left-hand side. I'm reading around that portion. So I'll stop there for

11 a moment. It's correct that the SDS was, in your view at the time,

12 seeking to establish new states; right?

13 A. I only make reference to some extreme examples but not as the

14 fundamental policies of any party.

15 Q. Who do you see as representing those extreme examples in the SDS?

16 A. Well, I cannot single anyone out, but I know that they -- there

17 were some radical solutions in their discussions within the party.

18 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 30951.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?

20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30951 receives number P6664,

21 Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

23 Mr. Traldi, will you follow up on this, on extreme or is it --

24 have you done with it?

25 MR. TRALDI: I have just one follow-up question.

Page 23907

1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, then we'll wait for that.

2 MR. TRALDI:

3 Q. Sir, you refer to discussions within the party. You weren't a

4 member of the SDS; right?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And weren't privy to those discussions?

7 A. No, of course not.

8 Q. So you're not sure who took which side of those discussions?

9 A. Well, I think -- I'm not certain but as far as I can remember,

10 I think that Mr. Karadzic himself or perhaps Mr. Koljevic, the late

11 Mr. Koljevic, mentioned at some point that there were such relations

12 within the party.

13 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, that completes my questions about the

14 topic, if Your Honour had additional questions.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said it was the radical fraction within

16 that party. Now, could you tell us where you found that the mainstream

17 opinion in the party was that -- was different from what you describe

18 here as the radical position?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The official policy of the

20 Serbian Democratic Party, and that was the dominant position, was to

21 support the Lisbon solution. The Lisbon treaty or agreement.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And did that remain over time? Or -- I mean that no

23 new states should be established.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the continuous policies from

25 Lisbon to the Dayton Accords that were also signed by the Serb side as

Page 23908

1 well as the other two, the Croatian and the Bosniak side, support for a

2 common state with entities, cantons and so on.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

4 MR. TRALDI:

5 Q. I'd like to look at Lisbon in a little more detail. The central

6 issue of the Cutileiro discussions was the effort to ethnically divide

7 Bosnia and Herzegovina; right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you were aware then that the Bosnian Serbs were seeking an

10 ethnic division of the territory; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In fact, this was a matter of public discussion and everyone was

13 aware of it; correct?

14 A. At this time, there was -- there were discussions in the

15 political circles in Sarajevo, also outside of the Lisbon talks, there

16 were talks between the parties directly. Simply put, that was the topic

17 of the day: How to divide Bosnia and yet keep it integral and whole.

18 And there were various combinations as to how to accomplish that.

19 Q. Now, you subsequently became aware that the position of the

20 Bosnian Serbs at that time was that they couldn't live with the Muslims,

21 didn't you?

22 A. After the clashes that went on for a long time, this was not

23 easily resolved and this was simply the consequence of what preceded it.

24 Q. So you did subsequently become aware that that was the Bosnian

25 Serbs' position; right?

Page 23909

1 A. As a reaction, yes.

2 Q. Now, you said earlier that the Serb side had signed and supported

3 the Cutileiro Plan. Did you mean the plan as it was on the

4 18th of March, 1992?

5 A. Well, the primary desire of the Serbian people and the Serbian

6 Democratic Party as well as my party was to remain in Yugoslavia.

7 However, as that was impossible and there was no tripartite agreement,

8 the Lisbon agreement --

9 JUDGE ORIE: I'll put the question to you again. When you said

10 earlier that the Serb side had signed and supported the Cutileiro Plan,

11 were you referring to the plan as it was on the 18th of March, 1992?

12 Would you please answer that question that was put to you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot answer that question

14 precisely. When you mentioned the date, does that mean that there were

15 changes in this agreement? Or -- I don't understand.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's a fair matter, Mr. Traldi?

17 MR. TRALDI:

18 Q. I'm referring to the date that it was discussed in the Serb

19 Assembly which I think you're aware of and has been discussed with you in

20 all your previous testimonies. Did you mean that the Serb side signed

21 and supported the plan as it existed on that date?

22 A. The date confuses me, but otherwise, yes, there was support for

23 the Lisbon agreement. That is precisely why I asked you if there were

24 different versions of the agreement. I know, generally speaking, that

25 the Lisbon agreement was supported by the SDS and the other two sides.

Page 23910

1 Q. Well, I'd like to test your evidence in that respect, but looking

2 at the clock, I see I may have to do it after the break.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You certainly will have to do it after the

4 break.

5 Mr. Kecmanovic, we take a break of 20 minutes, and you may follow

6 the usher.

7 [The witness stands down]

8 MR. TRALDI: Mr. President, while the witness is exiting I can

9 inform the Chamber 65 ter 30947A is now in e-court. It's been

10 provisionally marked as P6660.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic -- and you tender it now?

12 MR. TRALDI: I do, although if Mr. Lukic would like to wait until

13 after the break to give his position, I wouldn't oppose that.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic?

15 MR. LUKIC: I'll use the break to check it.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

19 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness to come in,

20 Mr. Lukic, I think yesterday we cut shorter the time limit for a response

21 to the tu quoque submissions made by the Prosecution mainly because one

22 of the witnesses would appear pretty soon. Therefore we changed it from

23 Wednesday to Monday. I do understand that the Prosecution has now

24 withdrawn in relation to that witness, at least, the tu quoque objection.

25 So therefore for the other witness, where there is no withdrawal or no

Page 23911

1 withdrawal yet, I do not know, the time limit is Wednesday now.

2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Before the witness is with us, I went through the excerpt that

4 has number P6660 and I -- Mr. Traldi and I agreed that I have no

5 objection for admission in this form, but we also agreed that I could add

6 anything I deem necessary. So already I can see that I will ask for

7 another two pages. So I don't know if we should wait until that

8 translation is ready or it should be different number but I think it's

9 not the best idea.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.

11 MR. TRALDI: I'm happy to wait until the translation is received.

12 Of course, we will want to look it over at that point. Will the Defence

13 be putting in the request for the translation? We are happy to do it.

14 MR. LUKIC: Okay.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That offer is accepted.

16 [The witness takes the stand]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, on behalf of the Defence you will ask.

18 Mr. Kecmanovic, we will continue with the cross-examination, at

19 least Mr. Traldi will.

20 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

21 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Q. Sir, first, to explain the focus on the date of 18 March, that's

23 the date you mention in your statement when the Cutileiro Plan was

24 presented to the RS Assembly by Mr. Karadzic; right?

25 A. I don't remember precisely, but most likely.

Page 23912

1 MR. TRALDI: Just for clarity, perhaps if we could have -- I

2 believe it's paragraph 55 of the witness's statement, D556. The English

3 is on page 22. And I see the B/C/S has already been located.

4 Q. So in paragraph 55, you give that date; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. TRALDI: Could we have P4582? This will be

7 Radovan Karadzic's speech at the 42nd session of the Bosnian Serb

8 Assembly. I'll be looking for page 6 in the English and the bottom of

9 page 4 in the B/C/S.

10 And what he says is: "On 18 March" -- begins in the middle of

11 the page in the English.

12 "On 18 March we won the battle for" --

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Where is it in the B/C/S?

14 MR. TRALDI: At the bottom of the page, as I said, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I missed that, sorry.

16 MR. TRALDI: That's all right.

17 "On 18 March we won the battle for our republic. We won it on

18 18 March, thanks to the skill of Mr. Krajisnik."

19 And he gives some additional details. And then three lines from

20 the bottom, and turning to the top of page 5 in the B/C/S, ten lines from

21 the top exactly, he says:

22 "Then Alija said yes to three Bosnias for the first time and that

23 it would be an ethnic basis and that was fatal for him. They showed us

24 completely unacceptable maps but Cutileiro said you can accept this as a

25 basis for further discussion. Then we" --

Page 23913

1 JUDGE ORIE: We move to the next page in English.

2 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 "Then we seized it with both hands, yes, as a basis for further

4 discussion, yes. It was important to us that it was in three, that it

5 was on a territorial basis, and that there was some kind of map in

6 existence by which we could establish our right to territory as between

7 45 and 50 per cent, you know what Cutileiro's map looked like. Then

8 Bosnia exploded, then we were accepted as a side in the conflict. The

9 international community made a serious mistake because they sent

10 Cutileiro and Carrington to us before the war because they accepted us as

11 a side in the conflict. If they had ignored us and kept quiet,

12 recognised Bosnia and said afterwards that there was some kind of

13 insurrectionists there who were wrecking their own state, we would be in

14 serious difficulties, nobody would be talking to us."

15 Q. Now, that's a lengthy excerpt but I'll have a few specific

16 questions for you about it.

17 First, Mr. Karadzic is clear that the Bosnian Serb leadership

18 found the maps attached to the Cutileiro Plan completely unacceptable;

19 right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And had no intention of accepting those maps as they were; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. He's saying, I'd put to you, that the Bosnian Serbs' goal was to

24 use the plan to lock in their right to a separate ethnic entity while

25 subsequently seeking control of more territory than was granted them in

Page 23914

1 the plan. Isn't that right?

2 A. That is the same percentage as contained in the Dayton Accords,

3 between 45 and 50.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, that wasn't the question. Would you please

5 answer the question? Mr. Traldi will repeat it if you ask him to do so.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Please.

7 MR. TRALDI:

8 Q. I'd put to you that Mr. Karadzic is saying that the

9 Bosnian Serbs' goal was to use the plan to lock in their right to a

10 separate ethnic entity while subsequently seeking control of more

11 territory than was granted them in the plan. Isn't that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, that's a different picture of their position on the

14 Cutileiro Plan than the one you paint in your statement, isn't it?

15 A. I stated what the general position was vis-à-vis the

16 Cutileiro Plan rather than discussing any territorial details.

17 Q. And the Bosnian Serb leadership at this -- at the time of the

18 plan, 18th of March, already claimed territory which went beyond the

19 territory they would have been granted by the Cutileiro Plan; right?

20 A. I really don't know that.

21 MR. TRALDI: Well, let's look at P4580. This is the record of

22 the 11th session of the RS Assembly, dated the 18th of March. I'm going

23 to ask that we turn to page 10 in the English and 12 in the B/C/S.

24 Sorry, to 38 in the English and 56 in the B/C/S.

25 Do we have both? At the bottom of the page, in the English --

Page 23915

1 I'm not certain where it appears in the B/C/S. I see a 54 on the page.

2 JUDGE ORIE: That seems to -- I saw a reference to Bosanska Krupa

3 on the page we previously had on our screen. It was the second

4 paragraph. I might be mistaken.

5 MR. TRALDI: I strongly suspect Your Honour is correct, then.

6 Yes. Exactly, Your Honour. Thank you.

7 Q. So what Mr. Vjestica says, speaking of his own municipality, is:

8 "Bosanska Krupa is a textbook example, it's been six months now

9 since the current MUP, inspections or other services have not been to our

10 Serbian territories around Mount Grmic, into this area of Serbian

11 municipalities. They cannot, we do not let them. They do not dare to.

12 We have de facto occupied our own territories."

13 And we will turn to the next page in English.

14 "But here, we must reach an agreement that all Serbs, in all

15 municipalities, both the newly formed and the existing ones, take over

16 the power because we have not taken over. Mr. President, I think that

17 you have to give us an order, that after the next session of the Assembly

18 you should order this, that we arrange it for the areas where it has not

19 been done and to implement this, that the Serbs should occupy their

20 territories so that no other forces could enter them. Thank you."

21 And then it reflects there is applause.

22 So that municipality, Bosanska Krupa --

23 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry for interrupting. I'm on B/C/S channel now

24 and there is really a wrong typo, typo mistake in this text, and the

25 translators are reading it that way. It says "dvoje" and it has no

Page 23916

1 sense. It should be "svoje" so the Professor is not confused. Or as it

2 is translated in English, "Our territories."

3 JUDGE ORIE: If it is an obvious mistake, Mr. Lukic, we

4 appreciate --

5 MR. LUKIC: Because "dvoje" also has a meaning so it's not

6 obvious.

7 JUDGE ORIE: If it's not obvious you shouldn't have discussed it

8 in the presence of the witness. That's the reason why I'm saying that.

9 You consider the original B/C/S to be -- to contain a typo where it says

10 "svoje" -- no --

11 MR. LUKIC: "Dvoje."

12 MR. TRALDI: Could I just ask that the witness take the

13 headphones off.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness may well understand the English

15 language. You take off your ear-phones.

16 MR. LUKIC: It's not a big issue. I just do not want this

17 witness to be confused. "Dvoje" means "both," "svoje" means "our." So

18 he could get the impression that somebody wants to take two territories,

19 both territories. And "svoje" means "our" territory. So if it's

20 translated into English as "svoje," I think it's correct. But still it

21 was read the way it was written in this document.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that the last two words of the previous

23 paragraph do say "svoje" territory. Because we started reading at the

24 Bosanska Krupa school example, I think it was.

25 MR. TRALDI: Yeah, "skolski primjer."

Page 23917

1 MR. LUKIC: In both paragraphs. First paragraph that was read,

2 three lines from the bottom of that paragraph, on the left-hand side, it

3 says, "dvoje teritorija." And the same in the next paragraph, second

4 line from the bottom, also says, "dvoje teritorija."

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and in the previous paragraph, it says,

6 "svoje teritorija," last two words.

7 MR. LUKIC: That's right, but that paragraph, I don't know if

8 it's read out or not --

9 JUDGE ORIE: No, it was not read out but the following paragraph

10 was not -- yes, was read out.

11 But should occupy, you say, our territories. Is that what you --

12 MR. LUKIC: I think it's logical as it was translated into

13 English but the witness should hear the same.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I think the meaning would be, if you

15 occupied their territories you make it your territory but the claim is

16 that they are our territories already and now to be occupied by the

17 Serbs. That's -- I think the meaning is not that much different although

18 differently phrased.

19 MR. TRALDI: I'm happy to read it as I initially did and have the

20 booth translate my words to the witness if that would be agreeable to

21 Mr. Lukic.

22 MR. LUKIC: Absolutely.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 MR. TRALDI:

25 Q. And it's the last sentence before the word "applause," sir.

Page 23918

1 So that last sentence reads from the beginning --

2 MR. LUKIC: Only the witness has to have his headphones --

3 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has to put his earphones on.

4 MR. TRALDI: Of course, sorry.

5 JUDGE ORIE: We had a small linguistic problem, Mr. Kecmanovic.

6 Mr. Traldi will now continue.

7 MR. TRALDI:

8 Q. I'm going to reread that sentence. It begins:

9 "Mr. President, I think that you have to give us an order that

10 after the next session of the Assembly you should order this, that we

11 arrange it for the areas where it has not been done and to implement

12 this, that the Serbs should occupy their territories so that no other

13 forces could enter them. Thank you."

14 And then it reflects applause.

15 Now, Mr. Vjestica's own municipality, Bosanska Krupa, was not

16 granted to the Bosnian Serbs by the Cutileiro Plan, was it?

17 A. I'm really not aware of such territorial details of the

18 Cutileiro Plan, at least not precisely. I don't know whether Bosanska

19 Krupa was made part of it or not.

20 MR. TRALDI: Well, could we have 65 ter 30950? And this is a map

21 colour coded to represent the Cutileiro Plan.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any disagreement about the matter between

23 Prosecution and Defence? Bosanska Krupa not to be Serb in the

24 Cutileiro Plan because otherwise we just put it to the witness if the

25 parties agree on it.

Page 23919

1 MR. TRALDI: I'm going to go through the map in a little more

2 detail.

3 MR. LUKIC: I'm afraid that I don't know the Cutileiro Plan that

4 well.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed then as you suggested.

6 MR. TRALDI:

7 Q. So if we look to the northwest, Bosanska Krupa bears the colour

8 code for a Muslim area; right? You can see on the legend that the pale

9 colour is for Muslim areas?

10 A. I see it, yes.

11 Q. And Prijedor and Sanski Most are also colour coded for Muslim

12 areas; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Just to the southeast of there, can you see Donji Vakuf also

15 colour coded for a Muslim area? Just south of Jajce and east of Kupres

16 and Sipovo?

17 A. I see it.

18 Q. And looking to the east of the country, along the Drina River,

19 Zvornik, Vlasenica, Bratunac, Visegrad, Srebrenica, Rogatica, and Foca,

20 those are all colour coded as Muslim areas; right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Are you familiar with an area known as the Posavina corridor?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the Posavina corridor is not entirely coded red for a Serb

25 area, is it? There are portions colour coded for Muslim and then some

Page 23920

1 municipalities that are blue for Croat?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, the areas I just mentioned were all claimed by the Bosnian

4 Serbs, though; right?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the

6 witness, he is speaking off mike.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please speak into the microphone? The

8 interpreters can't hear you. And repeat your answer.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the document you quoted a moment

10 ago, there is only a reference to Bosanska Krupa.

11 MR. TRALDI:

12 Q. I understand that. I also know that you're aware of the Serb

13 autonomous regions that had been declared at this time. And I'd put to

14 you that the regions I just mentioned, with a couple of exceptions, are

15 part of those Serb autonomous regions and were all part of the Serbs'

16 territorial claims. That's true, isn't it?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. TRALDI: And for the Chamber's reference, the SAOs are

19 reflected in P3930 and a map at P178, page 6.

20 Q. And, sir, the Chamber has received evidence that the

21 Bosnian Serbs took control of almost all of the areas I just mentioned

22 during 1992, many of them as early as April 1992. Were you aware of

23 that?

24 A. Was that before or after the Cutileiro Plan which was rejected by

25 the Muslim side?

Page 23921

1 Q. That's after the Cutileiro Plan. After the 18th of March.

2 A. After it was rejected?

3 Q. Sir, you're here to testify. What's your evidence as to when you

4 say the Muslim side withdrew from the Cutileiro Plan?

5 A. I was trying to say the following: Any territorial changes as

6 compared to the Cutileiro Plan occurred after it was rejected.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, carefully listen to the question. When do

8 you say the Muslim side withdrew from the Cutileiro Plan? That was the

9 question. Would you please answer the question.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know when precisely but

11 upon return from Lisbon, after it was initialled.

12 MR. TRALDI:

13 Q. So I'd put this as April 1992. The Cutileiro Plan, we have

14 explained, Karadzic presented to the Assembly on the 18th of March. But

15 I'd put to you again that many of these territories were taken over by

16 the Bosnian Serbs as early as April 1992. That's true, isn't it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In fact, yesterday you testified that the Bosnian mobilisation on

19 the 4th of April, 1992, had "practically meant introducing war into

20 Bosnia and Herzegovina." Fighting had already broken out, including in

21 Bijeljina, before that, hadn't it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And so it's not true, is it, to say that war was introduced to a

24 place where the war had already started?

25 A. There had been local skirmishes before, but I wanted to say that

Page 23922

1 in general terms, war broke out in Bosnia after that.

2 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this map.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?

4 MR. LUKIC: Only -- sorry, only one thing. I don't know if it's

5 only me, but I can see on the left, top left corner, for four

6 municipalities different colour, like greenish, Velika Kladusa, Cazin,

7 Bihac, Bosanska Krupa. So is there any explanation for that on this map?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, it seems to be right and even in the

9 legend it seems lightly greenish as well, but isn't this specifically a

10 matter the parties could agree on? I take it that maps to the

11 Cutileiro Plan are somewhere in official documents.

12 MR. TRALDI: There is one already in evidence. It's harder to

13 work with visually on the screen which is why I've used this one but I --

14 JUDGE ORIE: And greenish and white here is the same for you and

15 is at least not red and not blue.

16 MR. TRALDI: I agree that both green and white are neither red

17 nor blue. If Mr. Lukic would like, I can refer him to the one that's in

18 evidence, somewhat harder to work with, and he can double check that it

19 corresponds and we can come back to the matter. If that would suit

20 everyone.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic, the Chamber will admit this map into

22 evidence but you're free to revisit the matter if the green and white

23 causes problems of substance.

24 Madam Registrar?

25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30950 receives number P6665,

Page 23923

1 Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ORIE: P6665 is admitted.

3 MR. TRALDI: And for Mr. Lukic's reference, the map to which

4 I referred is at Exhibit P3106, page 4. And came in as an associated

5 exhibit to the evidence of Witness Okun.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

7 MR. TRALDI:

8 Q. I want to turn now, sir, to three meetings you mention in your

9 statement which occurred soon after the failure of the Cutileiro Plan.

10 First, a meeting at the Terme Hotel, and for reference this is discussed

11 at paragraph 16 of your statement. Do you recall that meeting?

12 A. It was a long time ago but I do remember in general terms.

13 Q. So I have just simple questions for you about this. Nothing

14 specific was discussed at that meeting by way of plans or proposals that

15 might have achieved peace, was it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is your answer that I'm correct that nothing specific was

18 discussed at that meeting that might have achieved peace? Is that right?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. And nothing of value came out of that meeting, did it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And next, you discuss a meeting between Mr. Izetbegovic and

23 Mr. Krajisnik about dividing Sarajevo so that Muslims would control the

24 city centre and Serbs would control the suburbs. Do you recall that

25 meeting?

Page 23924

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And Mr. Koljevic, who you mention in your statement, told you

3 that Mr. Karadzic had also agreed to the plan discussed at that meeting;

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And he would have had to due to his role; right?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. TRALDI: I'm going to ask now that Ms. Stewart play a clip

9 from "Death of Yugoslavia" and that we look at how Mr. Krajisnik and

10 Mr. Izetbegovic described the meeting. That's 65 ter 30851A.

11 I understand the translation has been confirmed by CLSS.

12 JUDGE ORIE: If that's the case, we can play it once.

13 [Video-clip played]

14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Izetbegovic: When the cannons

15 above the city started pounding, when the destruction of the city was

16 under way, Krajisnik offered that we meet, to strike a deal on Sarajevo,

17 as he put it."

18 [In English] "Anchor: They chose the now abandoned parliament

19 building for their secret talk."

20 [Interpretation] "Krajisnik: I arrived first. It was already

21 dark.

22 "Izetbegovic: Before this, we were friends, in a way. We were

23 like friends because we had worked together in the parliament for some

24 time before that.

25 "Krajisnik: Then I saw their security men. They had automatic

Page 23925

1 rifles with silencers or something like that, and I said: 'Is that what

2 you call a gun? The Serbs are much better equipped.' I was just trying

3 to be funny.

4 "Izetbegovic: He told me: There is no way to avoid dividing the

5 city.

6 "Krajisnik: We had always been thinking about dividing Sarajevo

7 so Muslims had their part and the Serbs theirs. This is no secret.

8 "Izetbegovic: I did not accept the division. I turned him down.

9 We said goodbye and he gave me a pen as a memento."

10 MR. TRALDI:

11 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik is clear there that the Serbs always intended

12 to divide Sarajevo; correct?

13 A. I apologise. I wouldn't say that he said that they always had

14 that intention. It was only in those conditions, the wartime conditions,

15 that were then a reality in Sarajevo.

16 Q. So you would agree with me that by the time of this meeting, the

17 Serbs intended to divide Sarajevo; right?

18 A. That was a proposal put forth by Krajisnik, put forth to

19 Izetbegovic.

20 Q. And then, yes, they clearly had that intent, right, if they were

21 proposing it?

22 A. The intention was ad hoc, it had to do with a situation in which

23 we were all -- in which we found ourselves, the wartime condition.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, could we have the transcription of the

25 video footage on our screen so that if the witness says this is not what

Page 23926

1 Krajisnik said, that we with verify that?

2 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: And by rephrasing your question, I understood that

4 to be a confirmation of the correct understanding of the witness of what

5 was said.

6 MR. TRALDI: It was my attempt to move efficiently,

7 Mr. President, and focus on what I was interested in.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If it's just for practical purposes then

9 we -- okay, please proceed.

10 MR. TRALDI: If you look at the bottom, Mr. Krajisnik says:

11 "We had had always been thinking about dividing Sarajevo."

12 So that's the text that he actually speaks.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

14 MR. TRALDI: And that's the text that the interpreters read

15 during the video.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, you're right.

17 MR. TRALDI:

18 Q. And we are agreed, too, I think, that by the time of this

19 meeting, the Serbs intended to divide Sarajevo?

20 A. Perhaps there is miscommunication here. There was a front line

21 around the Sarajevo -- around Sarajevo, and Krajisnik's proposal was to

22 maintain that situation until the Bosnia-Herzegovina situation is finally

23 resolved.

24 Q. Sir, I'm not suggesting -- I'm not asking you about which part

25 would be under the control of the Muslims and which part would be under

Page 23927

1 the control of the Serbs. What I'm asking you is what Mr. Krajisnik

2 clearly says in this video, and what you've said was his proposal at that

3 time, that was what the Bosnian Serb leadership intended at that time;

4 right?

5 A. At that point in time, yes.

6 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this clip 65 ter 30851A.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30851A receives number P6666,

9 Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: P6666 is admitted into evidence.

11 MR. TRALDI:

12 Q. As for the third meeting you mention in your statement, that was

13 at Lukavica, and you discussed with Momcilo Krajisnik whether you should

14 join the Izetbegovic Presidency. That's correct too, isn't it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, you don't mention this in your statements but Mr. Koljevic

17 called your home the evening before you were supposed to join the

18 Presidency; right?

19 A. I don't remember talking with him.

20 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 30941?

21 Q. And I think I'd suggest to you, maybe it would refresh your

22 recollection, if you weren't at home at the time and he spoke to your

23 wife. Is that correct?

24 A. It is possible that he spoke with some member of my family. The

25 phone lines were on.

Page 23928

1 MR. TRALDI: Could I have page 142 of this document?

2 Q. This is your testimony in the Krajisnik case. Now, the eve of

3 your entry into the Presidency, that would have been around the

4 31st of May, 1992; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, reading starting at line 11, you're testifying, and you say:

7 "I'm reminding you of this and what I said yesterday. When you

8 read this out, I happened to remember, for example, that on the eve of my

9 entry into the Presidency, becoming a member of the Presidency,

10 Nikola Koljevic called up by phone but didn't find me at home, so he

11 talked to my wife. He told her that it wouldn't be a good idea; quite

12 the contrary, it would be bad thing if I were to join the Presidency,

13 that that would be a great detriment to the Serb people. My wife

14 recounted that conversation ..."

15 I take it she recounted the conversation to you and that's how

16 you learned of it; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you stand by your testimony in this respect, given in the

19 Krajisnik case?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So Mr. Koljevic did call and say it would be bad for the Serb

22 people if you joined the Izetbegovic Presidency?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. That was for public relations reasons essentially; correct?

25 A. I didn't quite understand the question.

Page 23929

1 Q. Well, you were -- he was concerned, wasn't he, that it would

2 enable the Izetbegovic Presidency to portray itself as a multi-ethnic

3 institution that had Bosnian Muslim and Bosnian Croat and Bosnian Serb

4 members; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, the Presidency -- I'm done with this testimony now.

7 The Izetbegovic Presidency discussed, in your presence, the

8 problem of people being expelled from the territories where they lived by

9 force, didn't they?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. TRALDI: Can 65 ter 30944 be called to our screens? It's an

12 excerpt from the transcript of the 128th BH Presidency session dated the

13 24th of June, 1992.

14 Q. You attended that session; correct?

15 A. Can you please just check on top of the page? You can see

16 whether I was present.

17 Q. I think the top of the page again doesn't have a list of

18 attendees, but if we turn to page 3 in the English and 4 in the B/C/S

19 I think we might find your name. You'll see it's second or third down,

20 rather, on each page. Between Pelivan and Pelivan. Do you see your

21 name?

22 A. Yes, yes, I see it.

23 Q. Now, we see here Mr. Akmadzic discussing prerequisites, at the

24 top he's clearly discussing negotiations that lead to peace, and then

25 below your name he says:

Page 23930

1 "There are prerequisites which are cease of war operations,

2 recognition of the single system of government, and negotiations which

3 have as their foundation the creation of pure ethnic territories cannot

4 be accepted."

5 Do you see that?

6 A. I see it.

7 Q. So the Presidency is discussing avoiding the creation of pure

8 ethnic territories?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, to be fair, turning to the next page in both languages, you

11 take part in the discussion?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have a look at that page?

13 MR. TRALDI:

14 Q. And you propose a particular formulation:

15 "That begins with the pre-war situation in respect of that

16 picture or national structure, the demographic structure in BiH, that

17 this be the starting point and not some that no changes of any kind will

18 be accepted in the national structure of the population that have been

19 produced by war, moving away, et cetera."

20 That was your proposal; correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you responded with this formulation because you were aware at

23 this point that there had been changes in the national structure of the

24 population; correct?

25 A. On all three sides, a lot of people had left Sarajevo.

Page 23931

1 Q. And changes on all three sides that had been produced by war;

2 right?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. And by people moving away in fear of that war and of other things

5 that were happening at the time?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. TRALDI: Could we turn to the next page in both languages,

8 please?

9 We see there is more discussion, and at the very bottom of the

10 page in English, Mr. Izetbegovic says:

11 "So this provision needs to be woven in somewhere, about

12 non-acceptance," and then we will turn to the next page in English, "of

13 any -- any change to the demographic picture, to the demographic

14 situation that were created by war."

15 And you respond below it:

16 "Those are territorial ethnic changes caused by violence, war,

17 genocide, moving away, et cetera."

18 And again, you were aware that changes in the ethnic structure of

19 Bosnia's population were occurring for all those reasons; right?

20 A. This quote, I believe, is incorrect and I can tell because the

21 reference to Halil -- there is a reference to Halil which would refer to

22 General Halilovic and that's not the way that I called him or addressed

23 him. This must have been what Izetbegovic said because he used that form

24 to address him. However, it doesn't really differ much from the earlier

25 quotes.

Page 23932

1 Q. I think you're reading a different quote of yours. I direct your

2 attention to the bottom of the page. Do you see what you've said there?

3 "Those are territorial ethnic changes caused by violence, war,

4 genocide, moving away, et cetera."

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. [Microphone not activated] That's you speaking, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you knew at that time that changes in the ethnic makeup of

9 Bosnia and Herzegovina were happening for all those reasons?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you'd received reports in the Presidency that people were

12 moving out, Muslims and Croats were moving out of Serb-claimed

13 territories for all those reasons; right?

14 A. I knew directly only the fact that Serbs were trying to flee

15 Sarajevo, and as for the other thing, I knew that indirectly through

16 reports.

17 Q. Sir, you're speaking of territorial ethnic changes. You've said

18 in your statement that Serbs were being stopped from leaving Sarajevo.

19 So I'd put to you that when you're speaking of territorial ethnic

20 changes, you're speaking of changes in the makeup of Serb-claimed

21 territories that were being reported to you and to the other members of

22 the Presidency. That's true, isn't it?

23 A. Yes. That is what I say there.

24 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?

Page 23933

1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30944 receives number P6667,

2 Your Honours.

3 JUDGE ORIE: P6667 is admitted.

4 Mr. Traldi, if you're moving to another subject, I think we are

5 close to the time where we would take a break.

6 MR. TRALDI: I think it's an excellent time for a break,

7 Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness, we will take a break of 20 minutes.

9 You may follow the usher.

10 [The witness stands down]

11 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 10 minutes past mid-day.

12 --- Recess taken at 11.50 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.

14 JUDGE ORIE: We have a late start due to technical problems,

15 which seem to be resolved.

16 MR. LUKIC: Mr. Traldi and me are using body language because we

17 are trying to fit into today's schedule to finish with this witness.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Usually it's the Chamber to be blamed for it, but

19 now it's really technical problems that --

20 MR. TRALDI: I'm just trying to get LiveNote up and running

21 before we start, but I think we will be able to share the remaining time

22 basically evenly.

23 JUDGE ORIE: It's good to hear that the Chamber doesn't need to

24 encourage you to pay proper attention to this issue, because if the

25 witness could leave today, before the weekend, that would be good, or at

Page 23934

1 least during the weekend and not to stay over.

2 [The witness takes the stand]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

4 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Could we have 65 ter 30946.

6 Q. This will be an interview published in Belgrade Borba, an

7 interview with you, in which you discuss territorial ethnic changes of

8 the sort that we were discussing before the break.

9 MR. TRALDI: If we could have page 2 in the English and the top

10 of the far right column on page 1 in the B/C/S.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you zoom in, please? I can't

12 really read. It's too fine print.

13 MR. TRALDI:

14 Q. Of course.

15 MR. TRALDI: The top of the far right column for the witness.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Can you read it now, Witness, because --

17 MR. TRALDI: And it's the right column, middle of the page in the

18 English.

19 Q. Now, you're asked:

20 "Do you have a personal position on the criteria according to

21 which that split should be carried out?"

22 And you answer:

23 "In my opinion, only two criteria are possible. One is for the

24 split to be carried out in accordance with shares in the national

25 structure of the population. In other words, for each people to receive

Page 23935

1 approximately as much territory as the percentage that it represents in

2 the total number of inhabitants of BH. The one who has a third of the

3 population cannot claim two-thirds of the territory or vice versa. Or,

4 since there are three constituent peoples, the criterion may be that the

5 total territory should be divided into three approximately equal parts.

6 The Serbs would receive approximately the same thing under both criteria,

7 while the Muslims and Croats would fare very differently in one case or

8 the other."

9 So my first question: This refers to dividing the control of

10 territory in Bosnia-Herzegovina on an ethnic basis; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Second, as I understand it, you're suggesting here that the RS,

13 the Bosnian Serbs, should have been entitled to approximately one-third

14 of the land, whichever of those criteria was applied; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. TRALDI: Turning to page 4 in the English, and looking at the

17 box on the bottom of page 1 in the B/C/S, bottom centre, we see the

18 heading, "Aggressors and aggressors," a little lower on the page in the

19 B/C/S than where we are now.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Traldi, could you check if we have the right

21 portion in the B/C/S?

22 MR. TRALDI: We don't yet. Could we zoom out for a moment? And

23 it's where it says at the very bottom centre, "Agresor i agresor."

24 Q. You're asked a question here:

25 "If the Serbs are not the aggressors as they claim in contrast to

Page 23936

1 the world, then how can one justify the fact that they have used weapons

2 to conquer more than two-thirds of the territory in spite of the fact

3 that they only have one-third of the population in BH?"

4 Now, you were aware that Bosnian Serbs were claiming two-thirds

5 of the territory at this time; right?

6 A. Yes, they had under their control about 70 per cent of the

7 territory, I think.

8 Q. And this is as of August 1992. Now, you answer:

9 "The problem is that in BH, neither the first side nor the second

10 nor the third has shown any willingness, either in peace or war, to

11 respect any sort of principles of justice, tolerance, respect for the

12 interests of others, et cetera. Just as in parliamentary competition,

13 i.e. in the political phase, the Muslims and Croats did not shrink from

14 abusing their numerical superiority to outvote the Serbian side, the

15 Serbian side did not shrink from using its advantage in heavy weapons in

16 wartime conditions."

17 And that's right, isn't it, that the Serbs had used their

18 advantage in heavy weapons throughout the months leading up to

19 August 1992 when you gave this interview?

20 A. Yes. Well, owing to that, they actually placed under their

21 control 70 per cent of the territory.

22 Q. Those are the territories from which, in the Bosnian Serb

23 Presidency, you'd received -- or sorry, in the Bosnian Presidency, you'd

24 received reports that there were territorial ethnic changes occurring

25 because of violence and war and genocide; right?

Page 23937

1 A. Could you please repeat your question?

2 Q. That 70 per cent of the territory you just mentioned, that's the

3 territory where, when you were in the Bosnian Presidency, you received

4 reports that there were territorial ethnic changes occurring because of

5 violence and war and genocide; right?

6 A. Those reports did not show the situation in the Mostar valley

7 where the situation was reversed, where the Serbs were victims.

8 Q. So --

9 JUDGE ORIE: That's not an answer to the question, I think.

10 Could you please answer the question? You were shown a little time ago

11 part of the minutes of a meeting in which you said something, and the

12 question now is whether the 70 per cent you mentioned a minute ago is

13 about territories, as you said in that meeting, that they were ethnically

14 changed or the ethnic changes were occurring because of violence and war

15 of genocide, whether you were talking about approximately the same

16 territories. Or at least those 70 per cent to be included in what you

17 said during that meeting.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably.

19 MR. TRALDI:

20 Q. And by this point you'd been in Belgrade for two months; right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Meeting with Serb officials in the SFRY government, like

23 President Cosic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. This continued to be your opinion as to what was happening on the

Page 23938

1 ground in Bosnia, didn't it? The Serb side was using its advantage in

2 heavy weapons?

3 A. What is the question?

4 Q. Actually I have a couple more quotes to show you from the article

5 and I'll ask it then. At the end of the paragraph that we are looking

6 at, you say:

7 "With respect to the territorial ambitions of the Serbian side,

8 double its share in the national structure of the population, it is

9 strange that people are keeping silent about the fact that today we have

10 completely symmetrical conduct on the Croatian side. Naturally both are

11 equally unacceptable."

12 Your view was that Serb and territorial -- sorry, Serb and Croat

13 territorial claims were both unacceptable; right?

14 A. Could you please read the quote, the part that you're quoting,

15 through the end so that my point can be clear?

16 Q. I think I did. It reads:

17 "With respect to the territorial ambitions of the Serbian side,

18 double its share in the national structure of the population, it is

19 strange that people are keeping silent about the fact that today we have

20 completely symmetrical conduct on the Croatian side. Naturally both are

21 equally unacceptable."

22 And what I asked you was: It was your position then, wasn't it,

23 that Serb and Croat territorial claims in Bosnia-Herzegovina were

24 unacceptable?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23939

1 Q. Turning to page 3 in the English and page 2, left-most column in

2 the B/C/S, you're asked at the bottom of the page in English, and the

3 middle of the left column in the B/C/S, under "Everyone in his own

4 crowd":

5 "Then you do not believe in the proclaimed return of all the

6 refugees as a countermeasure to the partially implemented ethnic

7 cleansing" --

8 A. Could you please zoom in?

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Only on the left column.

10 Q. It's the top quote, you can see "etnicko ciscenje" in the B/C/S.

11 So I've read the question. You respond:

12 "Unfortunately, I think that there will be much" --

13 A. [No interpretation]

14 Q. Let me finish your answer, sir.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We need the right portion on the screen --

16 JUDGE ORIE: The witness is -- yes. And the witness is

17 apparently not able to follow it. Could we --

18 MR. TRALDI:

19 Q. Do you see the first question you're asked under: "Svako svome

20 jatu [phoen]"?

21 A. [No interpretation]

22 Q. And that's the question I read out a moment ago, isn't it? You

23 have to articulate your answer for the record, sir.

24 A. I would appreciate it if you could read it one more time because

25 I wasn't able to follow earlier.

Page 23940

1 Q. Happy to do it.

2 "Then you do not believe in the proclaimed return of all the

3 refugees as a countermeasure to the partially implemented ethnic

4 cleansing."

5 And you answer:

6 "Unfortunately, I think that there will be much more territorial

7 and ethnic concentration during the upcoming peace than was done in this

8 regard by war operations, destruction, and expulsions."

9 And it was your position at the time that the ethnic

10 concentration that had occurred up to this point had been caused by war

11 operations, destruction, and expulsions; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you said earlier you'd been in Belgrade for two months at

14 this time, you'd been meeting with Serb officials in the SFRY, senior

15 officials, that remained your position as of this time, end of

16 August 1992?

17 A. Yes, for the most part.

18 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 18097?

19 Q. This is another interview you gave around the same time. I'll be

20 looking for the third and fourth paragraphs.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, I noticed that in the English

22 translation, names are mentioned again and again where they appear not to

23 be in the original. Now, could you -- not in this one but the previous

24 one. Could you carefully check that there are no other new elements

25 introduced? You see it's always Vucinic, Kecmanovic. Now, it may well

Page 23941

1 be that it's explained in the beginning but it certainly does not appear

2 in the original text, and therefore that always raises some concern.

3 MR. TRALDI: I believe the names you've mentioned are the

4 interviewer and the interviewee.

5 JUDGE ORIE: No doubt about that, but apparently someone has been

6 editing rather than just translating.

7 MR. TRALDI: We are happy to have it reviewed, if that would

8 assist.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at least check carefully that that's the only

10 thing and then I take it that there is no major problem, is there?

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. TRALDI:

13 Q. As to this interview, at the first -- at the top it says

14 Presidency member resigns and we are talking about you here, you'd

15 resigned by the end of August 1992 from the Izetbegovic Presidency;

16 right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Looking at the third and fourth paragraphs, we read:

19 "The process of dismembering of Bosnia-Herzegovina along its

20 ethnic seams within the internationally recognised territory has gone

21 beyond the point of return, Kecmanovic said on Monday night, explaining

22 the reasons for his resignation. The Muslim Bosnia, the Croatian

23 Herceg-Bosna, and the Serbian Republic are territorially defined entities

24 with a population ethnically homogenised by force."

25 By that point, large areas of the Republika Srpska had indeed

Page 23942

1 been ethnically homogenised by force, hadn't they?

2 A. Not only by force, but by fear as well.

3 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 18097.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?

5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 18097 receives number P6668,

6 Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: P6668 is admitted.

8 MR. TRALDI: I'd ask that the previous document, 30944, be marked

9 for identification and we'll review it as you've suggested,

10 Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam -- well --

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Kindly check the number.

13 MR. TRALDI: I'm told that what I meant was 30946.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, that at this moment

15 I made an observation in relation to that one. I expect the Prosecution

16 to carefully look at it, but it's not a reason at this moment not admit

17 yet. But I leave it open that the parties can revisit, if it turns out

18 that there is more edited than just the names of the interviewer and the

19 interviewee.

20 MR. TRALDI: I'm in your hands in that respect, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then you tender it, I take it?

22 MR. TRALDI: I do.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar?

24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30946 receives number P6669,

25 Your Honours.

Page 23943

1 JUDGE ORIE: P6669 is admitted into evidence. And of course

2 I expect the parties to revisit it pretty soon if there is any reason to

3 do that. Please proceed.

4 MR. TRALDI:

5 Q. Now to finish this topic, sir, in paragraph 55 of your statement,

6 you speak about the movement of populations and you say it was possible,

7 you believe, to transform Bosnia and Herzegovina territorially and

8 ethnically without any radical or forced changes to the ethnic structure

9 on the ground. Do you remember saying that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Whether or not it was possible, based on your statements at the

12 time, that's not what happened, is it?

13 A. There were some official proposals, but they were all rejected by

14 the Muslim side.

15 Q. So I'd put to you that in your statement, you're saying it was

16 possible to do this when you know, and you said publicly at the time,

17 that what actually happened was that the ethnic composition of Bosnia was

18 transformed in a completely different way, through violence, through war,

19 through genocide. That's right, isn't it?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Again, the last question, you didn't answer the

22 question, but you thought it more important to give the reasons why you

23 think it didn't happen, and even did not answer the question itself.

24 Could I please ask you again to focus on the question.

25 MR. TRALDI:

Page 23944

1 Q. I want to turn now to the Vance-Owen Plan. I'm going to move

2 through it very quickly. I know you're aware of a great many details so

3 I'm going to make an effort to put to you the key details and ask you to

4 confirm them.

5 The plan was based on the idea of a central state of Bosnia with

6 a number of regions; right?

7 A. Yes, more or less, to the extent I can recall.

8 Q. It was an attempt to preserve a sovereign multi-ethnic state?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. It was initially met with some reluctance by all three warring

11 parties?

12 A. Yes, as far as I remember.

13 Q. In April 1993, Slobodan Milosevic was pressured to support it and

14 he in turn pressured the Bosnian Serb leadership to support it; is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And the Bosnian Serb Assembly met about it in early May 1993;

18 right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And General Ratko Mladic, the commander of the Bosnian Serb Army,

21 forcefully demonstrated during the Assembly deliberations the amount of

22 land the Serbs would have to give back as part of the plan, and it was

23 then rejected; right?

24 A. I'm not aware of any details of the Assembly discussion. I do

25 know that the plan was rejected by the Serbian Assembly, though.

Page 23945

1 MR. TRALDI: Could we have Exhibit 1D02002? This is the

2 witness's expert report in the Simic case. And I'm looking for page 41

3 in the English, 38 in the B/C/S, paragraph 82. I think we may have a

4 different page in the B/C/S. If we could go back three pages. Now we

5 have the right page in the B/C/S, and if we could get page 41 in the

6 English, please.

7 Q. Did you -- you wrote this expert report yourself; right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And reading at the end of the paragraph, we see:

10 "The latter," that refers to the Bosnian Serb Assembly, "meeting

11 on 5 and 6 May, voted overwhelmingly against ratification of the

12 Vance-Owen Plan. On this occasion, as before, it was the map that

13 constituted the biggest problem for the Serbs, something that

14 General Ratko Mladic, the commander of the Bosnian Serb Army, forcefully

15 demonstrated during the Assembly deliberations. In a referendum held on

16 15 May, the Bosnian Serbs decisively rejected the plan which was now

17 truly dead."

18 Does this refresh your recollection as to whether General Mladic

19 made such a speech at that Assembly session?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And do you stand by what you've written here, that after that

22 speech, the plan was rejected?

23 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, I have to intervene here.

24 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: It's not the proper presentation of the evidence.

Page 23946

1 It's not after the --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it was after in time, it was after, isn't it?

3 MR. LUKIC: After in time, yeah, but it's after my birth as well,

4 so it's not my fault.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, it is -- first of all, whether it's --

6 let me first -- if this should be understood as an objection, then it's

7 denied.

8 So could you please first answer the question?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We need to be precise, please.

10 Could you read out the sentence in question? On that occasion as

11 previously --

12 JUDGE ORIE: No. Witness, you should first answer the question.

13 MR. TRALDI:

14 Q. Sir, you can see the sentence. Do you stand by your evidence as

15 reflected here?

16 A. I stand by it. Yes.

17 Q. And so it's right, isn't it, that after General Mladic's speech

18 on this occasion, the Vance-Owen Plan was rejected?

19 A. That's not what it says.

20 Q. Well, it says that he gave a speech at the Assembly session. It

21 says that the Assembly rejected it. And it says that then, ten days

22 later, or nine days after the end of the session, the Bosnian Serbs

23 decisively rejected the plan. You stand by all those things; right?

24 A. I have in mind the specific issue of General Mladic. In my

25 report, it is only stated that he --

Page 23947

1 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. Witness, let me stop you

2 there.

3 What we see happening is that a text is put to you, that

4 apparently Mr. Lukic has some concern as whether the Chamber would

5 consider a chronology as a causal relationship. Now, this Chamber is

6 able to make a distinction between time and causality. That's one.

7 Second, whether there is any causal relationship, the Chamber of course

8 will consider that. What Mr. Traldi does is that he points to certain

9 fact which, I take it, Mr. Traldi, you would consider relevant to

10 establish such a causal relationship, and you're not distancing yourself

11 from such a causal relationship, you're only referring to time, but of

12 course there is some suggestion in that. The Chamber is fully able to

13 cope with that, so neither the witness nor the parties need to have any

14 further concern about the matter. Please proceed.

15 MR. TRALDI:

16 Q. Sir, you stand by he gave a speech, after that speech the

17 Assembly voted it down. On the 15th, the Bosnian Serbs decisively

18 rejected the plan. That's all true, right?

19 A. No. Let us stay with the text precisely. I didn't write here

20 that following his speech, the Assembly voted it down. Or rather, that

21 his speech changed the tone of the Assembly. That's not what one can

22 read from here. On that occasion, the map was a problem as it had been

23 previously.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you are doing exactly what I asked you not

25 to do: To be concerned about this Chamber not knowing the difference

Page 23948

1 between causal relationship and chronology. Therefore, you demonstrate

2 now again that you either have not understood me or that you do not wish

3 to understand me. Simply, do you stand by the referendum held on the

4 15th of May decisively rejecting the plan, which was now truly dead, by

5 the Bosnian Serbs? Do you stand by that?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If formulated the way you put it,

7 yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Do you stand by on the 5th and the 6th of May, that

9 there was an overwhelmingly -- vote overwhelmingly against the

10 ratification of the Vance-Owen Plan?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Do you stand by the fact, as written here, that the

13 map constituted the biggest problem for the Serbs and that

14 General Ratko Mladic, the commander of the Bosnian Serb Army, forcefully

15 demonstrated that during the Assembly deliberations?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

18 MR. TRALDI: To just briefly look at the causal issue, I'm going

19 to ask Ms. Stewart to play one more clip. And this has been given

20 65 ter 22466A. We have not had the transcript confirmed in this case.

21 We just had it made. So we may need to play it twice.

22 JUDGE ORIE: We need to play it twice. Mr. Kecmanovic, that's

23 for purposes of verification of interpretation. So you'll see it twice.

24 [Video-clip played]

25 [Video-clip played]

Page 23949

1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "RM: We have to show to all those

2 present the current situation. Not everyone can see it from up close

3 like we soldiers can.

4 "MB: When we saw those maps, Milosevic and I looked at each

5 other. We couldn't understand what he was talking about.

6 "RM: It shows the results achieved by our leadership, our people

7 and our army.

8 "BP: It was so clear when he presented two maps. There was a

9 factual map and a transparent map showing the Vance-Owen proposals,

10 showing the current situation in the field. It was very visual. And the

11 delegates could see how much territory the Serbs would get by the

12 Vance-Owen Plan."

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 MR. TRALDI:

15 Q. Now, first, that's the speech you were describing in your report;

16 right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And Ms. Plavsic's reaction reflects the importance of

19 General Mladic's speech in it those deliberations; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 22466A.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic?

23 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, but in front of me on paper I have only

24 B/C/S version and here, on the titles, I read, under line 7,

25 "victorious." There is no such a word in B/C/S.

Page 23950

1 MR. TRALDI: To preserve the time for both of us and ensure we

2 finish today, I'd be happy to have it MFI'd and talk to Mr. Lukic at the

3 break.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. It will be MFI'd. Madam Registrar?

5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 22466A receives number P6670,

6 Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: P6670 is marked for identification pending further

8 consultation between the parties. Please proceed.

9 MR. TRALDI:

10 Q. I'm going to turn to my last topic now which is your departure

11 from Sarajevo. Aside from you and Mr. Pejanovic, was there also a Serb

12 named Simovic who had remained part of the BiH government?

13 A. He was there for a while but he too left Sarajevo later on.

14 Q. He told you in June of 1992 that there were messages from Pale

15 that you Serbs who remained in the BiH government should leave your posts

16 in Sarajevo; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And we've agreed, at that time, it would have been advantageous

19 for the Republika Srpska government if the Serbs who were in the Bosnian

20 government departed. You'd agree with that; right?

21 A. That was not my opinion. You mentioned the conversation

22 involving Mr. Koljevic at the time.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction -- interpreter's note:

24 Could the witness kindly repeat the end of his answer because he trailed

25 off.

Page 23951

1 MR. TRALDI:

2 Q. I think you need to repeat your answer after saying I mentioned

3 the conversation with Mr. Koljevic. The interpreters couldn't hear the

4 rest.

5 A. You mentioned Mr. Koljevic's call and his conversation with my

6 family suggesting that I do not become a member of the Presidency.

7 Nevertheless, I did. And as I used my judgement at the time, I relied on

8 it again when I left. It was on my own, of my own accord.

9 Q. I want to test that evidence. Before we do, you agreed with me,

10 I think, when I mentioned that phone call from Mr. Koljevic, that it was

11 a public relations problem for him, for the RS government, that you and

12 other Serbs remained part of the Izetbegovic government; right?

13 A. No. I think the conversation took place at the time I was

14 invited to join the government.

15 Q. That's right. That would have been a month earlier. I had put

16 to you at the time --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- that he'd told your wife it would be a detriment to the Serb

19 people for you to join the government. And you agreed with that. That's

20 right, isn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I'd put to you, when we were discussing it, that that was

23 because it would be a public relations problem to have Serbs in what

24 would then appear to be a multi-ethnic, inclusive, Bosnian national

25 government. I'd put it to you again now.

Page 23952

1 A. It is possible that it was their interpretation. That it was

2 their opinion. It certainly wasn't mine.

3 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 30941, page 144?

4 Q. This will be another part of your Krajisnik testimony.

5 MR. TRALDI: I don't yet have it on my screen.

6 JUDGE ORIE: But it's on its way. I can see that on the screens

7 before me.

8 MR. TRALDI: I lack your foresight, I'm afraid, but it is here

9 now.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

11 MR. TRALDI:

12 Q. It was put to you:

13 "Well, Professor, I don't want to split hairs about particular

14 people and the reasons they may have entered or remained for a particular

15 period of time, but in the political situation of that moment when the

16 Bosnian government wanted -- was presenting itself as a unitary

17 multi-ethnic government and the -- and Republika Srpska wanted to

18 repudiate or denounce that position, it was advantageous if the Serbs who

19 were in the government departed. Correct?"

20 And you started your answer by saying:

21 "Yes, you're right. That is correct." And then you explained a

22 particular event.

23 Do you stand by your testimony in the Krajisnik case?

24 A. I do not have that text translated.

25 Q. But you heard it through your ear-phones; correct?

Page 23953

1 JUDGE ORIE: If you want it to be read again because there is no

2 B/C/S version of this. There is, but there is an audio which --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask you to do so.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please read it again, Mr. Traldi.

5 MR. TRALDI:

6 Q. It was put to you -- I'll focus on the critical part of the

7 question if that's all right.

8 "... in the political situation of that moment when the Bosnian

9 government wanted -- was presenting itself as a unitary multi-ethnic

10 government and the -- and Republika Srpska wanted to repudiate or

11 denounce that position, it was advantageous if the Serbs who were in the

12 government departed. Correct?"

13 And your answer reads:

14 "Yes, you're right. That is correct."

15 My only question for you at the moment is: Do you stand by your

16 Krajisnik testimony as truthful?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, soon after the conversation you had with Mr. Simovic, in

19 early July 1992, you arranged with Mr. Izetbegovic to go to Lukavica and

20 then to Pale to meet with the Bosnian Serb leadership; right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You had to make arrangements because in early July, it wasn't

23 possible to move out of Sarajevo freely; right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. This had been the case since early May; correct?

Page 23954

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. TRALDI: Now, could we have 65 ter 02451? These are the

3 minutes of the 14th session of the Republika Srpska Presidency. It's

4 held 3 July 1992.

5 Q. That's just before you left Sarajevo; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. If we could turn to page 2 in both languages, item 12 is a

8 conclusion that:

9 "Mr. Kecmanovic, Mr. Pejanovic, Mr. Simovic, Mr. Nikolic and

10 other Serbs shall be publicly invited to withdraw from their positions in

11 official bodies of the Republic of BH or to publicly renounce their role

12 as representatives of the Serbian people in those organs."

13 Do you see that text?

14 A. I see it.

15 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 02452? These are the minutes

16 of the 15th session of the Republika Srpska Presidency. This session is

17 held 6 July 1992.

18 Q. That's around when you left Sarajevo; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. TRALDI: Now, I'm particularly interested in item 3 for which

21 we need to turn to the bottom of page 2 in the English and to page 3 in

22 the B/C/S.

23 Q. This indicates that Dr. Koljevic and Momcilo Krajisnik were

24 appointed to talk to you, Professor Kecmanovic, and determine conditions

25 for your resignation. And it says that in order to resign, you should

Page 23955

1 present certain demands to Mr. Izetbegovic. Do you see that text?

2 A. I see it.

3 MR. TRALDI: If we could turn to item 4, on page 3 in the

4 English, still on page 3 in the B/C/S. It's actually just -- it's

5 point 4 in item 3, so I think I may have confused matters slightly by how

6 I labelled it, but it's at the top of the page in the English.

7 Q. "The Serbian Republic of BH shall amnesty, protect, and enable

8 all those who resign from the Muslim-Croatian leadership to leave the

9 Serbian Republic of BH."

10 You see that text as well; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I have a few questions about this document. First, it's correct

13 that after you left Sarajevo, you met with both Mr. Koljevic and

14 Mr. Krajisnik; right?

15 A. I also met with other members of the leadership.

16 Q. Those included Ms. Plavsic and Mr. Karadzic; right?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. Aside from them, you did, just for the clarity of the record,

19 meet with Mr. Koljevic and Mr. Krajisnik; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And in fact, you told them about the situation in Sarajevo;

22 right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And they talked to you about the situation around Sarajevo?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23956

1 Q. And it's correct that after those talks, you went by helicopter

2 to Belgrade?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. You were offered to go with Mr. Karadzic immediately but you went

5 the following day in a helicopter with Mr. Koljevic; is that right?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. So the Bosnian Serb government enabled you to leave the

8 Republika Srpska; right?

9 A. That was agreed in Sarajevo at the Presidency. It was agreed

10 that I should go both to Pale and Belgrade.

11 Q. And you never went back to the Izetbegovic Presidency, did you?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. Soon afterwards, you did resign, didn't you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So after the document we've just seen was issued, you did meet

16 with the people appointed to negotiate with you, they did enable you to

17 leave Republika Srpska, and you did resign. That's all true, isn't it?

18 A. The conversation that is announced here, with the conditions that

19 were presented, such a conversation with Krajisnik and Koljevic did not

20 happen.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I stop you there. That was not the question. Did

22 you meet with those? I think you confirmed that already. Did they

23 enable to you leave the Republika Srpska?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And did you resign?

Page 23957

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

3 MR. TRALDI:

4 Q. I have one final exhibit. But before I pull it up, it says here

5 the Serbian Republic of BH shall amnesty those who resign from the

6 leadership; right? At point 4?

7 A. I don't know anything about that. No one said anything of that

8 nature to me.

9 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 01737E? Once the transcript

10 comes up, I'll ask Ms. Stewart to play the audio. This is part of a

11 conversation between General Mladic and President Karadzic recorded on

12 the 2nd of December, 1995, and Mr. Karadzic is speaking at the end of the

13 portion that's been redacted on this page. The transcript continues to a

14 second page.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We have the same issue as far as audio or video is

16 concerned. Now, of course, if there is no disagreement among the parties

17 on whether this reflects the original audio, then of course we could just

18 do it by reading which is -- this is an official translation, I take it,

19 it's not just --

20 MR. TRALDI: I didn't do it myself, no, Mr. President. It's an

21 official translation.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, to that extent, of course, it has been

23 verified already.

24 MR. TRALDI: That's true, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic? But officially of course our

Page 23958

1 interpreters are interpreting from audio and not -- so therefore the same

2 rationale still applies. Let's hear it twice to be consistent in our

3 approach.

4 MR. TRALDI: That's fine, Mr. President.

5 I'm not getting anything either so I might just read the relevant

6 portion if that's more suitable. I know we are pressed for time.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please read it to the witness.

8 [Audiotape played]

9 JUDGE ORIE: It should be played again.

10 [Audiotape played]

11 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Karadzic: I mean ... it's that

12 little Stankovic, let's say, their man.

13 "Mladic: And who is Stankovic?

14 "Karadzic: Stankovic, don't you remember going back to ... he

15 was in the leadership as well ...

16 "Mladic: I don't know. Which Kecmanovic, that buffoon of ours

17 who was in ...

18 "Karadzic: No.

19 "Mladic: ... with Alija?

20 "Karadzic: Yes, yes. If someone says 'join the Presidency,' he

21 would join the Presidency. But the greatest shame -- the greatest

22 disgrace for him, he's politically dead because -- because of that ..."

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The audio was very

24 unclear.

25 MR. TRALDI: And we're missing actually the line I was looking

Page 23959

1 for at the end in what was just read back from the interpreters.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any way to play then again the last, well,

3 let's say, 10 or 15 seconds?

4 [Audiotape played]

5 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Mladic: They granted him asylum in

6 Belgrade."

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

8 MR. TRALDI:

9 Q. That's what is described in the previous document as well, right,

10 that members of the Izetbegovic government who resigned would be given

11 asylum?

12 A. No one ever said anything to that effect to me.

13 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, that completes my examination. I have

14 the last three documents to tender. That's 02451, 02452, and 01737E.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?

16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2451 receives number P6671.

17 Document 2452 receives number P6672. And document 1737E receives number

18 P6673, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: P6671, 72, and 73 are admitted into evidence.

20 We take a break, Witness. Mr. Kecmanovic, we would like to see

21 you back in 20 minutes. You may follow the usher.

22 [The witness stands down]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

24 MR. LUKIC: Well, I will not be able to finish --

25 JUDGE ORIE: You'll not be able to finish.