140917ED

Page 25664

1 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vujasin.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. We were just waiting for one second while a document comes up.

4 Sir, thank you for your patience yesterday. As you saw, we had

5 some technical difficulties. I want to return now to a few documents

6 that I wasn't able to get to yesterday. Before you is a 21 August 1992

7 report from prison warden Branko Vlaco of the Serbian municipality of

8 Vogosca. The report states:

9 "Pursuant to the request of the Rajlovac Brigade, for the purpose

10 of performing physical labour, 29 prisoners were taken out for labour."

11 Is it correct that the Rajlovac Brigade made requests to this

12 prison for prisoners to perform physical labour?

13 A. I don't know about this. I don't know about this. All I know is

14 that there were works at Zuc, combat was ongoing, and the line was being

15 fortified. This was the link between the Vogosca and Rajlovac Brigade.

16 This is from the prison so I really cannot -- I don't know if it was

17 these people who were holding the line up there who came to take these

18 people. Perhaps it was at their request, but I don't think that the

19 request was sent from the command. I don't think so.

20 Q. Well, who would have the authority to make it a request?

21 A. I don't know. I don't know. These were the guys who were on the

22 line. It could have been an oral request for people to come and help.

23 Those people who were at the positions.

24 Q. Sir, is it correct that you were the deputy commander of the

25 brigade at this time?

Page 25665

1 A. Yes. Yes, I was.

2 Q. And it seems from your answers that you do have some possible

3 knowledge of this. Is it correct that you were aware that individuals

4 were being brought to the front lines to perform physical labour?

5 A. I know that this did happen but I don't know about this

6 situation. I mean, I know that they would go and that they would be kept

7 there so I assume that that would be that position for them to go to

8 help, so I cannot say that this did not happen. Yes, these things did

9 happen.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, your previous answer was therefore half of

11 the truth and not the whole truth when you said, "I don't know about

12 this. I don't know about this." You know that prisoners were taken from

13 the prison and were escorted to the front line where they had to do

14 labour, isn't it?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was an occurrence, that's why

16 I'm saying I don't know about this particular case, but there were cases

17 of people being brought to the front line for purposes of fortification.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you know of these incidents, perhaps not

19 specifically this one. Who asked for it?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the units would ask for it. I

21 mean all the units. I cannot say this one did and this one did not. It

22 was known that the units were doing that, the people who were at the

23 positions because --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Who sent the request to the prison? Or was it just

25 everyone on the lower level going to the prison and say, Give me 20, 25,

Page 25666

1 30 people, is that your testimony?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is that position.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and how did you come to know about it?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know because it was a usual

5 occurrence. I don't know if it was a written request or, as we say, I

6 need people to dig five shelters or five trenches for fortifications and

7 then perhaps they would also request a digger machine to work on this.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You said it was usual occurrence. So do I have to

9 understand that knowing that this was usually done, that you agreed that

10 even with this procedure of asking at the lowest level would be

11 acceptable for you?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that point in time, there was no

13 way to prevent that. There was no way to prevent that because then you

14 would go into a conflict with --

15 JUDGE ORIE: I stop you there. I didn't ask you whether there

16 was a way to prevent it. I asked you whether you apparently agreed this

17 to happen.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally did not agree. I

19 personally did not agree.

20 JUDGE ORIE: What did you do to express your disagreement?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't there. I didn't give

22 approval. I didn't submit such requests. I mean, I did not have any

23 influence.

24 JUDGE ORIE: That was not my question. I asked you what you did

25 to express your disagreement as the deputy brigade commander.

Page 25667

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know what to

2 say. All I know is that I was not in favour of that, of people from the

3 prison being taken. I wasn't even in favour of those people being held

4 in prison.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last

6 sentence.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So I knew that there were prisoners

8 there, I didn't know who they were, what they were, or where they were.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And that they were taken to the front lines to do

10 labour.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew that they were going but I

12 didn't know who the people were at the front lines, where they were. I

13 cannot know that. Here in this case, these people were at Zuc.

14 JUDGE ORIE: And how did you know that these people were at Zuc?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the document, from this

16 document I can see it.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Where do you see it in the document?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says at the bottom. I mean, it

19 says that they were returned to the prison, 29 of them, that somebody was

20 asking. I don't know if they were where they were, how many days they

21 were there, but it does say who returned them so we would need to see in

22 which zone they were, whether they were in the area of the Vogosca or the

23 Rajlovac Brigade.

24 Here, it says at the request of the Rajlovac Brigade.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you started saying that you don't know

Page 25668

1 anything about this specific event. Later, you said I know that they

2 were at Zuc, which you had mentioned before as well. And then asked you:

3 "How do you know?" You said, "I see it in the document." But the

4 document not in any way refers to Zuc. That is, these are inconsistent

5 answers and I'll invite Mr. Weber to continue.

6 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please tender the document.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit P6750 [Realtime transcript

9 read in error "P6760"].

10 JUDGE ORIE: P6760 is admitted into -- I'm sorry, I made a

11 mistake. I was waiting for the transcript. P67 and then you said 60?

12 THE REGISTRAR: 50.

13 JUDGE ORIE: 50. I apologise. 6750 is admitted into evidence.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have P03194 for the

16 witness.

17 Q. Sir, this is a document dated three days later, the 24th of

18 August, 1992. It is a Rajlovac Brigade request to hand over prisoners

19 from Operative Group Vogosca. The document is from brigade commander

20 Lieutenant-Colonel Golijanin. The request states:

21 "We hereby request that you hand over to us 10 prisoners from

22 your prison, in order to help us in digging trenches at Zuc on 25 and

23 26 August 1992."

24 Sir, is it correct that actually these requests were made from

25 the brigade command for these prisoners?

Page 25669

1 A. I don't know about this one or the previous one. The previous

2 one, they probably worked the first day near the Vogosca Brigade where

3 Major Mitrovic was and then to come to us to work. And then we made the

4 request, so I can see my signature so that means that I signed it.

5 Mitrovic was at the position there. Probably in relation to this

6 previous one, we also made a request. I don't know how many we

7 requested. That's why I'm saying that this previous one was at Zuc and

8 then this is a continuation, meaning that that combat line was being

9 fortified.

10 Q. Okay. In your answer, you just said:

11 "The previous one, they probably worked the first day near the

12 Vogosca Brigade where Major Mitrovic was."

13 Sir, in the previous document that we looked at, there was no

14 reference to Major Mitrovic. How is it that you know the previous one

15 related to Major Mitrovic who we now see on the document from three days

16 later?

17 A. I don't know if Major Mitrovic was then there. It says which

18 ones they took and which ones they returned. If he went to the prison,

19 he must have gone in an official capacity from the command. And probably

20 you had the lower organs making the request, and you see in the previous

21 document who the people were who returned the prisoners. And you can see

22 in the previous document that there is no Mitrovic and there was no

23 request. You can see that it says based on an oral request by whoever it

24 was.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat what he is

Page 25670

1 saying.

2 MR. WEBER:

3 Q. Sir, could you please repeat the last portion of your answer.

4 You were saying that -- you were referring to the previous document,

5 "there is no Mitrovic and there was no request." Could you please repeat

6 what you said after that?

7 A. This request, most probably when they were there, it's possible

8 that they were there from the Rajlovac Brigade. I mean, possibly. I

9 cannot be sure. But it's possible because that's where they linked up.

10 And so then to continue the line, the request was made. So they assumed

11 that since they were already there, they were not being taken back, so

12 the assumption was that they should just continue to fortify the lines.

13 And I think Mr. Jovo Mitrovic died at those lines in the line of defence.

14 What was expected was --

15 Q. Just to pause here, there's no need to repeat yourself. Who is

16 Major Jovo Mitrovic? What is his position in the Rajlovac Brigade?

17 A. Jovo Mitrovic was a reserve major. His wife was killed. He

18 found himself there. He wasn't in the barracks. He would come to the

19 barracks and he held positions, I mean above Dvorovi, where Zuc and

20 Zabrdje connect. I mean, he was in that area. I mean, he had a sort of

21 unit of his and he was, I mean, trying to set up these positions and to

22 link that up with Rajlovci, down with the barracks. I mean, I mean that

23 was the area, I mean, where there were no houses, and that was the area

24 that was being defended. He was a reserve officer. He came to the TO.

25 He reported and he was carrying out, I mean, assignments that were needed

Page 25671

1 to be carried out.

2 Q. Okay. Was he battalion commander, was he a platoon commander, a

3 company commander? What was his command level?

4 A. I don't know if he was a platoon commander or a battalion

5 commander in any case his task was to unify everybody in that area, the

6 troops, the works. He was the most senior officer. I think he was over

7 55 years old, 55, 56 years old at the time, at that time.

8 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I want to look at one more document on

9 this topic. I don't know if Your Honours had any more questions on this

10 specific one.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I have a few questions for the witness. First of

12 all, did I hear you say, or at least that's how it was interpreted, that

13 you saw your signature on the document shown to you?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Now, then, I'll take you back to one of your

16 previous answers when you said that you didn't know about the other

17 incident.

18 "All I know is that there were works at Zuc, combat was ongoing,

19 and the line was being fortified. This was the link between the Vogosca

20 and the Rajlovac Brigade. This is from the prison so I really cannot --

21 I don't know if it was these people who were holding the line up there

22 who came to take these people. Perhaps it was at their request, but I

23 don't think that the request was sent from the command. I don't think

24 so."

25 That was your answer in which you clearly suggested, and I sought

Page 25672

1 verification of that in one of my follow-up questions, you clearly are

2 suggesting that such requests were not channeled through the command.

3 Five minutes later you tell us that you signed a request for prisoners to

4 be sent. That is inconsistent and untruthful in one way or another.

5 Any comment?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This first request, that was the

7 connection as I said, that was the connection. I don't know about the

8 first one. Well, like this, this is a few days later. It means that

9 there was a need, a need for that to be fortified so that that was done,

10 yes, yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking about the details. I'm asking about

12 an answer which clearly suggests that such requests were made from the

13 lower level and not channeled through the command, whereas, at least on

14 this one document, you tell us that it is your own signature which was

15 put by you on a request for a similar situation. I'm asking you about

16 this, not about whether it was on Wednesday or Tuesday or whether the one

17 followed the other.

18 You gave an impression which is contradicted by the document just

19 shown to you and signed by you. Any comment?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said the first position and

21 that's all right here. Again, I note, I apologise to you, I note this

22 was, I mean, that they asked most probably and then they asked for more

23 without the command, I mean, without the command so for something to

24 happen. I mean, I mean, then the command --

25 JUDGE ORIE: I stop you there. You're not responding to my

Page 25673

1 question. I'll read another part of your testimony to you.

2 You were asked:

3 "Who would have the authority to make a request?"

4 Your answer:

5 "I don't know. I don't know. These were the guys who were on

6 the line. It could have been an oral request for people to come and

7 help. Those people who were at the positions."

8 You're clearly denying the involvement of the command, whereas

9 from the document, it can be seen not only that the command was involved,

10 but also that you had personal knowledge about this. This is not the

11 whole truth you're telling us. Any further comment on my point, not on

12 your points?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What you have just said, that it

14 was possible to get the soldiers from the prison without the command,

15 means that they wouldn't have addressed the command in the first place.

16 It means that there was no -- there was a need for work so they were with

17 you for two, three, five days, it doesn't matter. They didn't finish.

18 And then the command would get involved --

19 JUDGE ORIE: I established that you're not -- that you're not

20 responding to my question.

21 Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

22 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please go to 65 ter 13834.

23 Q. Sir, coming up before you will be a 2 September 1992 report,

24 again from Mr. Vlaco, the prison warden in Vogosca. In this report, we

25 see that 21 prisoners were taken to perform physical work at Zuc. Were

Page 25674

1 you aware of this occasion?

2 A. I don't know. I don't know about this situation.

3 Q. Is it correct that these prisoners were regularly -- actually,

4 you've already answered that.

5 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I just tender this document.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6751, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

9 MR. WEBER:

10 Q. Sir, I'm going to change topics now. Is it correct that you

11 previously testified about the mopping up of Sokolje in the Karadzic

12 case?

13 A. There was a document on the screen, I gave -- I gave -- I gave my

14 statement.

15 Q. Okay. Let's go through some materials, but before doing so, just

16 so we have a little orientation here. Sokolje is a village to the north

17 of Sarajevo near Visoko; is that correct?

18 A. No, no, no.

19 Q. Okay. Where is it within -- in the north of Sarajevo? Where

20 would you place it near?

21 A. Sokolje is opposite the Rajlovac barracks. There's the railroad,

22 there's the road, and then there's the village of Sokolje.

23 Q. Thank you for that clarification.

24 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please again have P353. This

25 time we're going to go to page 368 of both versions, the original and the

Page 25675

1 translation.

2 If I could please have 368 in the original notebook, the

3 J series. Not the B/C/S transcription but the original B/C/S notebook.

4 Q. Okay, sir, before you again is one of General Mladic's notebooks.

5 This is an entry from 26 July 1992 concerning a conversation he had with

6 Captain First-Class Nedjo Lemez. Captain Lemez was a member of the

7 Rajlovac Brigade; correct?

8 A. Lemez, I don't know about him. I don't know about Major Lemez.

9 Q. Okay. Well, I'd like to direct your attention to the bottom of

10 the page, and I'll be reading on to the next page, concerning what

11 appears to be a proposal by General Mladic. The entry states:

12 "I propose the following: One, for the Rajlovac Brigade to

13 prepare in about 5 days in the general area where it," and if we could

14 continue the next page, "where it has about 2.500 men and to liberate

15 Sokolje."

16 I'll just stop there. Were you aware that General Mladic

17 proposed the liberation of Sokolje?

18 A. I did not know that General Mladic proposed that but I just know

19 that there was a lot of pressure coming from the civilian organs in

20 Rajlovac to liberate Sokolje, especially the Serb houses. As for people

21 who fled to Rajlovac from Sokolje, I know about that pressure. Pressure,

22 I felt it, others felt it, and that's why I clashed the most with all of

23 these people from the municipality of Rajlovac because I was against that

24 kind of mission.

25 Q. Okay. Is it correct that your superiors in the military were in

Page 25676

1 favour of attacking Sokolje?

2 A. Is it correct? I don't know. I don't know if it's correct.

3 Possibly there's an order, I know this was done. I know it was not good.

4 What happened is what I assumed. That's what I'm telling you now.

5 That's what I assumed and that's what happened. It was impossible to

6 carry out that mission.

7 Q. We'll go through some more things but here we see -- just coming

8 back to something I discussed with you at the very outset of my

9 examination. We see in this entry that it appears the Rajlovac Brigade

10 now has in July 1992, at the end of the month, about 2.500 men. So I put

11 it to you that you've not provided an accurate account of how many men

12 were in the Rajlovac Brigade. Do you have any comment?

13 A. Yes, yes, I have a comment. There were never 2.500, that's not

14 possible. There weren't more than 500 people in Rajlovac, in that

15 brigade. It couldn't have been more than 500. However, if people came

16 from elsewhere, later on there was assistance from other units and they

17 came from the Krajina front line, over here, in this area, so it couldn't

18 have been 2.500. It couldn't have been more than 500 that were made

19 available.

20 Q. I'm going to move on, but just for the record, our position is

21 that that's not a truthful answer.

22 MR. WEBER: So could the Prosecution now please have

23 65 ter 31264, page 34.

24 Q. Sir, I'm going to your Karadzic testimony related to Sokolje

25 quickly and I'd like to go through quickly what Judge Kwon asked you

Page 25677

1 about this. I'll read it to you since it's not translated before you.

2 During your Karadzic testimony, Judge Kwon asked you:

3 "What I'm interested in is the statement that you obstructed many

4 in action, for example, the mopping up of Sokolje and Brijesce hill. Is

5 that true?"

6 You answered:

7 "Ye. Well, yes. I was not inclined to be going towards those

8 people. This is something that would have required a lot of casualties

9 of innocent people. When you go somewhere, it means the civilians and

10 the soldiers would become casualties and the effect would be not much.

11 So there was practically no need. There was practically no justification

12 for such an action for this act."

13 Do you stand by this testimony here today in this case?

14 A. I do. I do stand by that statement.

15 Q. Do I understand from your previous answer that the military

16 advantage sought by mopping up Sokolje and Brijesce hill was not

17 justified because the risk of civilian casualties was too great?

18 A. Risk for civilians, for soldiers, and for taking up these

19 positions in that area. Even if all of it were to be done without

20 casualties, that situation could not be maintained up there, at those

21 positions, with the personnel that the Rajlovac Brigade had available.

22 Q. With respect to your view on this, did you inform your superiors

23 of it?

24 A. I did not. I did not. I didn't have an opportunity to do that.

25 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31260 for

Page 25678

1 the witness.

2 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for this, Mr. Weber, you did put

3 to the witness that Captain First-Class Lemez was a member of the

4 Rajlovac Brigade. The witness was unable to confirm this.

5 Now, the document you've shown him on e-court page 367, it says:

6 "Conversation with Captain First-Class Nedjo Lemez." And the first entry

7 reads: "Commander of Rosulje [phoen] Battalion in the Ilidza Brigade."

8 Any reason why you put to the witness that it was the Rajlovac

9 Brigade where the document says, at least suggests, that it was the

10 Ilidza Brigade.

11 MR. WEBER: My apologies. I had two Lemezes and two excerpts I

12 was using, and the other excerpt that I was going to be using had that

13 individual as a member of the Rajlovac Brigade. Thank you for catching

14 that, Your Honour. I was wrong --

15 JUDGE ORIE: In this context, you were wrong.

16 MR. WEBER: Yeah, I was wrong.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MR. WEBER: Thank you for [overlapping speakers] --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

20 MR. WEBER:

21 Q. Sir, before you is a 19 October 1992 order from General Galic

22 related to the final combat activities in several areas including Sokolje

23 and Brijesce. According to item 3 of this order, the commanders of the

24 Rajlovac, Ilijas, Vogosca, and Igman Brigades were all involved with this

25 operation.

Page 25679

1 Is it correct that at this time, you were actually in the corps

2 command?

3 A. On the 19th, yes, I was in the corps command.

4 Q. When General Galic issued this order, is it your evidence that

5 you did not voice your objections to these operations? Is that how we

6 should understand your answer, your previous answers?

7 A. No, no, no, no, no. I'm saying about before when I was in

8 Rajlovac, I did not have the opportunity to object. Now this is

9 coordinated action, that is to say, the organisation of higher units for

10 carrying out a mission.

11 Q. Did you express any of your concerns to General Galic at this

12 time in October 1992?

13 A. I just know that General Galic was aware of the entire situation

14 throughout the area. He had intelligence organs. Now whether he asked

15 me personally and whether --

16 JUDGE ORIE: I'll stop you there. Could you please answer the

17 question whether you expressed your concerns to General Galic, not what

18 General Galic knew already but whether you expressed your concerns.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not at that moment express

20 my concern because --

21 JUDGE ORIE: You've answered the question.

22 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

23 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution would tender this document into

24 evidence.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

Page 25680

1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P6752, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ORIE: P6752 is admitted. Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

3 MR. WEBER: And one last document. Could the Prosecution please

4 have 65 ter 31238 for the witness.

5 Q. Sir, this is a 30 November 1992 order to attack from the

6 Rajlovac Brigade which there's later indication that it was approved by

7 General Galic.

8 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution stay on this page of the B/C/S

9 original and go to page 3 of the English translation.

10 Q. Under item 2, enumerating the task of the brigade, the order

11 states:

12 "Our brigade has been instructed to launch an attack from its

13 starting positions to the right of Lemezovo Brdo-Zabrdje-Smiljevici

14 toward Svabino Brdo and Brijesko Brdo, cut off the village, surround the

15 enemy forces in the village of Sokolje, thoroughly mop up the villages of

16 Sokolje, Brijesce, and Brijesko Brdo," and it continues.

17 In November, did you articulate any concerns to General Galic

18 when he was -- or when the brigade, Rajlovac Brigade was being tasked

19 with mopping up Sokolje and Brijesko?

20 A. No, no, no, I did not because the -- our command was already

21 involved in different tasks, and as chief of engineering, I did not have

22 the opportunity to make suggestions. I was not an operative.

23 MR. WEBER: I'll leave it at that. Could the Prosecution please

24 tender this document.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

Page 25681

1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6753, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.

3 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, that concludes the Prosecution's

4 cross-examination.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Weber.

6 Mr. Stojanovic, any questions in re-examination?

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A few, Your Honour.

8 Could we please have in e-court document 1D04082. I think that

9 its P number -- I mean, I think that this document has received a

10 P number.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And which one?

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Frankly, I didn't manage to

13 write it down yesterday when the Prosecutor was cross-examining but it is

14 on our list and that's the document.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: It was not tendered.

17 MR. WEBER: Judge Moloto is correct, I did not tender it because

18 Mr. Stojanovic had indicated that he was going to be tendering it.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So there is no P number yet, and I take it,

20 then, that you will tender it at the end of the questions. Please

21 proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vujasin, just a few questions. Please focus

25 on this document that is before you now. Yesterday, it was shown to you.

Page 25682

1 According to military rules on the basis of which the VRS acted, who

2 appoints a brigade commander, which organ?

3 A. Their superior command, one step above.

4 Q. In this specific case, would that be the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

5 A. It would be the general staff, one level above that.

6 Q. When looking at this document, could it have been correct from a

7 formal point of view that you would be appointed brigade commander in

8 this way?

9 A. Formally, yes; practically, no. So formally, yes; legally, no.

10 The most senior officer who happened to be there, yes, according to our

11 rules. It's only for a particular task for a particular amount of time,

12 a limited period.

13 Q. Did you ever receive a permanent decision from the Main Staff of

14 the Army of Republika Srpska that you would act as brigade commander?

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the

16 witness's answer.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please restart your answer,

18 whether you ever received a permanent position from the Main Staff of the

19 Republika Srpska that you would act as brigade commander.

20 Could you restart your answer.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not receive that from the

22 General Staff, no order like that except for this, what is here,

23 Vukota Vukovic, I said a moment ago legally yes, legally no -- I mean,

24 no, operatively, yes. But the first decision was received by

25 General Milos Golijanin, who was a lieutenant-colonel at the time. He

Page 25683

1 came from the General Staff and he came to the command in Rajlovac and he

2 took over the brigade.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at document

5 P6746.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Stojanovic, are you now tendering this

7 document, 1D4082?

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I certainly plan on

9 having this document admitted. I would just like to recall that it is on

10 the list that I provided yesterday before we started. It's one of those

11 nine documents.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, that is a list of documents you

13 intend to tender as associated exhibits and as you know, it always has

14 been the preference the Chamber that the number of associated exhibits

15 would be as low as possible and that the parties are encouraged to

16 introduce any documents through a witness. So therefore, since you're

17 doing that, it seems that it would be appropriate not to leave it on the

18 list of associated exhibits but rather to tender it now, if that's what

19 you wish to do.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, then I would

21 like to tender document 1D04082.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D642.

24 JUDGE ORIE: D642 is admitted.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 25684

1 Q. Mr. Vujasin, what you have before you is the document that was

2 shown to you by my colleague, the Prosecutor, and you spoke about this

3 document.

4 This is what I'm interested in, could you please explain the

5 following to us: 40 105-millimetre shells are requested but it's for the

6 needs of the Rajlovac Brigade and it's requested by the commander of the

7 operations group. Does this indicate the question that you had, whose

8 artillery was this that would use these shells?

9 A. The operations group consisted of the Rajlovac, Kosevo --

10 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreters did not hear the third

11 brigade.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already explained this. So

13 where there is artillery, I mean then -- then their targets would be

14 engaged so this indicates the use of that and they would have powers over

15 the use. I mean the operative group, yes, the operations group. Or

16 whether they would go to another place, that I don't know.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the brigades which were forming the

18 operations group? You mentioned the Rajlovac Brigade, the --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vogosca Brigade.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the Kosevo Brigade, Kosevo

22 Brigade.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we now have all three. Please proceed.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we now please

25 look at document P353, page 368, could we have that in e-court. That is

Page 25685

1 General Mladic's notebook, the one that we looked at a moment ago.

2 Before that, for the sake of context, could the witness please

3 take a look at the previous page, 367. Could we please take a look at

4 that first. Thank you.

5 Q. Mr. Vujasin, in order to have the context, this is a note

6 concerning a conversation that General Mladic is having with Captain

7 First-Class Nedjo Lemez on the 26th of July, 1992, as General Mladic says

8 here, and then there are these footnotes concerning what this is all

9 about and what it was that they had been discussing.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So now, can we take a look at

11 the next page in both the B/C/S and the English versions.

12 This is what it says on the next page, after all of these

13 statements that were made by Nedjo Lemez and that are written down there:

14 "I propose the following ..." and then the text says number one --

15 Could we now move on to the next page. It continues that there's

16 a big power struggle going on. It is difficult to deal with a -- no, can

17 I read this right? I think it's Unkovic. And also they need assistance

18 in terms of weapons, ammunition, et cetera.

19 Q. My question, the commander of the Main Staff, can he make

20 proposals to someone or is his decision only and exclusively in the form

21 of an order?

22 A. I think -- I think on the basis of the briefing that the

23 commander of the Main Staff hears, now what can he do in that position?

24 This is something that the people who attended the meeting should think

25 about. That is my understanding. Now what he would do if he were in the

Page 25686

1 place of those people who came to brief him. Now that's what I have to

2 say. Otherwise, the commander issues orders, so there's no discussion

3 about that. That is not debatable. The commander said what he would do

4 and that means that he is giving guidelines to these people, how they

5 should be thinking, how they should be preparing units for these tasks.

6 Q. When it says that in the broader area there are 2.500 men, the

7 area of defence of the brigade, can that be a narrower area or a wider

8 area or a clearly defined area?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.

10 MR. WEBER: I'm sorry, I'm missing -- Mr. Stojanovic said "in the

11 broader area." I don't see reference to a broader area, I just see a

12 reference to the Rajlovac Brigade has about 2.500 men.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it speaks about the general area. That is

14 perhaps in -- that's the translation on page 368, last line. And if

15 there's any need to verify that, whether it's broader or general, then we

16 could do that, but please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Did you understand the question?

19 A. Could you please repeat it?

20 Q. This is my question: What is written here is:

21 "In the broader area, there are about 2.500 men."

22 Now, can a brigade have in its defence area a broader area, a

23 narrower area or a clearly defined area?

24 A. A brigade as a brigade has to have its area of responsibility.

25 That is a certain area that is given to it according to certain rules.

Page 25687

1 It is a certain area. Now, it depends on the situation, attack, defence,

2 or whether it was singled out and whether it can go to other areas,

3 whether it received a task like that, so a certain area is clearly

4 defined with boundaries. And there are certain points. It says what it

5 is on the left and what it is on the right, and where they meet up with

6 others and so on.

7 Q. And do you have any general idea about how many inhabitants there

8 were in the area of defence of the Rajlovac Brigade at the time?

9 A. I don't have the exact number. I cannot say that. I didn't even

10 know what the municipal boundaries were at the time, but I don't believe

11 there was more than 500 soldiers. If there were perhaps 5.000 troops and

12 citizens altogether in the entire area, that would include the police,

13 the work-duty force, the president of the municipality, then you would

14 need a maximum of 10 per cent of able-bodied men to defend that area.

15 Then if you add any other settlements to the brigade, if you expand the

16 zone, then there is a possibility that you would go for a higher number.

17 In this case, it happened in the summer that there was an order

18 from the corps command delineating the area of the Sarajevo-Romanija

19 Corps that came in June or July, so then one part facing Ilidza became

20 part of the Rajlovac Brigade area.

21 So I'm saying that this is why perhaps there is a larger number

22 of men.

23 Q. And did you --

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I get some assistance, please, Mr. Stojanovic.

25 You've been talking about the broader area. I don't seem to see that on

Page 25688

1 the translation. Are you able to help us?

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, it's page 368.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. What I see on the screen is 367.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The last line.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see "general areas," I don't know whether the

6 original says "broader area."

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That matter has to some extent been addressed

8 and the parties will look at whether there's any translation issue there.

9 Please proceed.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

11 Q. Mr. Vujasin, did you at any point in time while you were on duty

12 in the Rajlovac Brigade receive any order from a superior command to

13 expel or transfer the civilian population from Ahatovici?

14 A. No, I never received any order to that effect.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I'm looking at the clock. How much

16 time would you still need so as to know whether it makes sense to

17 conclude and then take a break or whether we should take a break first.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just need to

19 cover one topic very briefly and I don't think that it would take longer

20 than a couple of minutes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take the break a little bit later than

22 usual.

23 Please proceed.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Q. I am going to end with questions relating to your assessment,

Page 25689

1 Mr. Vujasin, of the severity or the difficulties of the action in

2 Sokolje. You had the opportunity to comment on that today.

3 Was Sokolje a dominant feature in relation to your unit's

4 position and was that a place from where your unit had material and human

5 losses on a continual basis?

6 A. That is a slope and it was a more favourable position in relation

7 to Rajlovac. There are all these features, Zabrdje, Brijesce, it's more

8 dominant than all these features and then it runs on towards Orlic. It

9 was dominant in relation to Zuc as well. So in that whole area of

10 responsibility, the brigade was not in a favourable position. I note

11 that there were daily instances of people being wounded or killed.

12 Allegedly a civilian came and he was moving towards the command and he

13 was killed right in the middle of the road.

14 Q. All right. Thank you. A question: Units of the army of Bosnia

15 and Herzegovina in that sector of Sokolje, were they deployed in civilian

16 facilities?

17 A. Civilian facilities were used. There were no military facilities

18 there in that area from before. There were no military facilities there

19 from before so civilian features were used and strengthened. Trenches,

20 roads. They were fortified. They were taken up and primarily used for

21 trenches. The houses of Serb families were used for that, and all these

22 families came to the barracks in Rajlovac and they were the ones who

23 initiated that these houses be liberated.

24 Q. Just one moment. We will finish.

25 Did I understand you correctly that a part of Sokolje was

Page 25690

1 inhabited by Serbs?

2 A. Yes, yes, you understood me correctly. And you can see on the

3 maps that all these are names of people who were in Rajlovac, I mean, in

4 the barracks.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vujasin. I have no further questions for you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, any more questions for the witness?

7 MR. WEBER: No, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Chamber has no questions either for you,

9 Mr. Vujasin, this concludes your testimony. I would like to thank you

10 very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having answered all

11 the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I

12 wish you a safe return home again.

13 You may follow the usher.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and we resume at 11.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

19 JUDGE ORIE: We are waiting for the witness to be escorted into

20 the courtroom.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Dzino, I assume. Before you give

23 evidence, the Rules require that you make the solemn declaration. The

24 text is handed out to you. May I invite you to make that solemn

25 declaration.

Page 25691

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.

4 Mr. Dzino, you will first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic. You

5 will find Mr. Stojanovic to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for

6 the -- for Mr. Mladic.

7 WITNESS: STOJAN DZINO

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

11 A. Good morning.

12 Q. I'm going to ask you to slowly speak your correct first and last

13 name for the transcript.

14 A. Stojan Dzino.

15 Q. Mr. Dzino, at one point in time did you provide a statement, a

16 written statement to the Defence of Radovan Karadzic?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we look at

19 document 65 ter 1D03961 in e-court, please. And could we look at the

20 last page, please.

21 Q. Sir, Mr. Stojan, I want to ask you if the signature on the page

22 that you see in front of you is yours and is the date written on the page

23 written in your hand?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. Thank you. Before I ask you about the truthfulness of this

Page 25692

1 statement, would you be kind enough to tell the Trial Chamber if in

2 preparation for your testimony today, you noted that in paragraph 14 of

3 this statement --

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And can we look at that, please.

5 Q. Paragraph 14, where it says: "From the president of the Serbian

6 municipality of Rajlovac," what needs to be deleted is "Serbian" and the

7 rest would remain unchanged?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. And then paragraph 61 of your statement also --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Paragraph 68.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. -- contains the words: "In the Serbian municipality of

13 Rajlovac." Again, we would need to delete the word "Serbian" from there.

14 A. Yes, that is correct.

15 Q. And did you also tell me that in paragraph 26 - and I would

16 kindly ask that we look at this paragraph together - instead of the

17 abbreviation "VRS," it should say "TO."

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going to cover

21 this in my questions. I would like to indicate that in paragraph 6 of

22 this statement - and this is also something that the Prosecution pointed

23 out in preparation for today's testimony - in the B/C/S version, it

24 states that according to the 1991 census, there were 999, 999 Serbs,

25 whereas in the English version, one 9 is missing. So in the English

Page 25693

1 version, it should also state 999. And thank you for your understanding

2 here.

3 Q. Sir, now that these corrections have been made in the transcript,

4 Mr. Dzino, if I were to put the same questions to you today, would you

5 give the same answers as you did in your written statement now after you

6 have stated the solemn declaration?

7 A. Yes, I would.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I

10 would now like to read the summary of the statement of Witness

11 Stojan Dzino.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Any intention to tender the statement?

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I also suggest before I

14 read the summary that the statement be admitted and given a number.

15 MR. JEREMY: Good morning, Your Honours. No objection to the

16 tendering of the statement.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the statement would receive number?

18 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 1D3961 will be Exhibit D643.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

20 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 When the war erupted in the municipality of Rajlovac, Witness

23 Stojan Dzino was a member of the TO. Due to troubled interethnic

24 relations, they were guarding their villages. With the forming of the

25 VRS, he became part of the local unit, and then in December 1992, he took

Page 25694

1 over the duties of battalion commander. And then from early 1994, he was

2 appointed assistant commander of the 4th Battalion of the 3rd Sarajevo

3 Brigade for morale.

4 In his statement, he speaks about the situation in his area in

5 1991 and early 1992, about the arming and training of Muslims, and

6 attempts to settle the dispute through negotiations. He asserted that

7 the armed conflict in his area did begin on the 29th of May, 1992, when

8 the Muslim forces used mortars to attack the hill of Krstac, north of the

9 village of Ahatovici. And then during the following days, the conflict

10 spread to Serbian houses in the village of Bojnik, to the barracks in

11 Butile, and then again towards Krstac.

12 With his unit, he personally took part in the fighting when the

13 opposing side was defeated and disarmed. In these battles, there were

14 casualties on both sides and numerous weaponry and military equipment was

15 seized, as well as 19 ABiH soldiers were captured which -- who were then

16 handed over to soldiers from the Rajlovac barracks. They were treated in

17 a humane way.

18 Throughout the entire war, his unit was in defensive positions.

19 They had a numerically superior adversary facing them who in the fighting

20 used 82-millimetre mortars, a tank from Golo Brdo hill, and

21 105-millimetre howitzers from Hrasnica. They also used civilian

22 facilities for the deployment of troops, weaponry, and equipment. He

23 cites specific facilities where members of the ABiH units were located.

24 There were never any professional snipers in his unit. He will

25 testify about the specific offensives of the ABiH army against the

Page 25695

1 positions of his unit, and he asserts that signed cease-fires were mostly

2 violated by the opposing side. During the war they had substantial

3 losses, i.e., 114 killed, one person missing, and about 600 wounded

4 fighters.

5 Finally, he notes that there was never any oral or written order

6 from higher VRS commands to carry out attacks against civilians in the

7 city of Sarajevo.

8 Q. Mr. Dzino, could we please look at paragraph 56 of your

9 statement, which now has the number D643. In this paragraph, you say:

10 "As for sniper fire and snipers, I state categorically that in

11 the four years of warfare, I never saw a professional sniper in my unit

12 or other units of the SRK."

13 My question is this: Did your unit have weapons, rifles that

14 could use sniper ammunition and which could be fitted with optical sites

15 or hunting optical sites?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What did you mean when you said, "I never saw a professional

18 sniper in my unit." What is a professional sniper to you?

19 A. A professional sniper to me is a soldier who completed training

20 as a sniper and it's a soldier who would need to be kitted out with

21 different devices, a suitable rifle, suitable ammunition, protective

22 equipment and everything else. And this is something we did not have.

23 None of our fighters went for that training.

24 And may I expand a little on my answer?

25 Q. Could you please speak more slowly and in less detail, please.

Page 25696

1 A. Thank you. We did not have any snipers. The best sharpshooters,

2 soldiers, would receive snipers so that in the course of combat they

3 would be able to use them because we did not want to waste any

4 ammunition.

5 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber, these events that you

6 speak about in your statement, the ones that began as of the 29th of May,

7 and we're talking about the local commune of Toposevici [phoen], where

8 were you at that time when this happened? Where were you living with

9 your family?

10 A. I was living in my house in Mihaljevici.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just ask a question before you go to the

12 next topic. Mr. Dzino, did you have non-professional snipers in your

13 unit; in other words, people who were not necessarily trained but who

14 were sniping anyway, using this sniper ammunition?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we're talking about the

16 beginning of the war, I was the platoon commander and I did not have a

17 single sniper in my unit.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I continue?

20 Q. Sir, could you please explain to the Trial Chamber where was your

21 house and your village of Mihaljevici in relation to the village of

22 Ahatovici?

23 A. My house was in a mixed settlement, but specifically my hamlet

24 had the largest part of the population who was Serbs, but there were also

25 Muslims and Croats. The entire local commune had a mixed population but

Page 25697

1 the inner core of the village of Ahatovici was settled exclusively by

2 Muslims.

3 Q. These villages, were they adjacent geographically?

4 A. If somebody came from elsewhere, they wouldn't know where one

5 would start and where the other one would end. Literally houses were

6 next door to one another.

7 Q. Thank you. Information about the number of persons wounded and

8 killed, this information that you present in your statement, does this

9 pertain to soldiers and civilians or does it pertain only to soldiers who

10 belonged to your unit?

11 A. This pertains only to soldiers who were members of my unit. In

12 addition to that -- I have to give a more extensive answer. I don't know

13 exactly now, but at one point in time, a veteran's organisation was

14 established and I was elected president of this veteran's organisation.

15 That is to say that I have completely documentation about persons who

16 were killed and wounded, so the place where a person was killed or

17 wounded, also a place where somebody was buried and so on and so forth.

18 I think there were 15 casualties among the civilians, I think. And then

19 also there was the war unit Orla that did not make up part of this 114.

20 They are a work organisation and they also had some 10 casualties.

21 Q. These days when the war just started, were professional soldiers

22 involved or were these simply self-organised locals?

23 A. Well, we were organised from the 1st of March, 1992. That's when

24 a member of a Serb wedding party in Sarajevo got killed. That night

25 barricades were put up, and from then onwards, people hardly ever went

Page 25698

1 into town.

2 I just happened to be there. Actually, it's not that I just

3 happened to be there. I was working at the post office, so I went to

4 work and it took me all day to get there because of the barricades. The

5 Serbs organised the defence of their own houses, so it's not that it was

6 weapons or whatever, but some people had hunting guns, others had other

7 things, so we sort of organised ourselves but this was just in front of

8 our own houses.

9 Q. Mr. Dzino, just another answer that I'm expecting. In this

10 organisation of yours, were there any professional military men or were

11 these just self-organised locals?

12 A. Just self-organised locals.

13 Q. You personally, were you one of these self-organised persons?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And where were you specifically at that time before May and June

16 in Ahatovici?

17 A. We didn't have any positions. We did guard duty at night, and

18 everybody, Serbs, Muslims, and Croats, everybody was involved in

19 agriculture during the day. And during the night, we had these night

20 shifts, guard duty. I have already stated all of that in my statement

21 and --

22 Q. What is contained in your statement we don't need to hear about

23 that really. So I won't have any further questions for you so --

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your last question, Mr. Stojanovic, was a bit

25 unclear. You should perhaps clarify what do you mean by "in this

Page 25699

1 organisation of yours," as you said, and put to the witness. To

2 understand the context, it would be better to clarify which -- to which

3 organisation you are referring.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. You mentioned this word "self-organised," that you were

6 self-organised. My question is: What do you mean by that, that you were

7 self-organised?

8 A. Well, this is the way it was. Several families lived there,

9 Serbs, and one family had its organisation, another had its own

10 organisation. At that time, there were no squads, platoons, whatever.

11 People were not armed. But let us say conditionally that these were

12 squads of these families. So then one was my family Dzino and then in

13 this other squad, there was this other family. That's the way it was.

14 That's the way it was organised. But there was no front line. There was

15 no line. During the night, for the sake of the safety and security of

16 their families, people stood guard in front of their houses during the

17 night.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzino.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

20 Q. At this point in time I have no further questions for you, so

21 could you please now respond to the questions that will be put to you by

22 the Prosecution.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dzino, you'll now be cross-examined by

24 Mr. Jeremy. Mr. Jeremy is counsel for the Prosecution and you find him

25 to your right.

Page 25700

1 Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed.

2 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

3 Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:

4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Dzino.

5 A. Good day.

6 Q. Now, by the 26th of May, 1992, you were a platoon commander;

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And your platoon was part of the Rajlovac Brigade. That's also

10 correct, isn't it?

11 A. It couldn't be put that way.

12 Q. Can you explain what unit your platoon was a part of on the

13 26th of May, 1992, when you were commander of that platoon?

14 A. We are going to be within the Rajlovac Brigade throughout the war

15 but that platoon had just been established. The need was felt to do that

16 because combat activities in the Sarajevo front took place every day. We

17 were supposed to get organised.

18 Now, I didn't know -- I mean now that I'm speaking about that, we

19 were within the Rajlovac Brigade. But once we select this platoon and

20 when the soldiers select me as platoon commander, I did not know then

21 what brigade I belonged to. However, there is no denying that we were

22 members of the Rajlovac Brigade.

23 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, Mihajlo Vujasin was the first

24 commander of the Rajlovac Brigade; correct?

25 A. He certainly was, no denying that. But at that time when I

Page 25701

1 established this platoon, I did not know who was the commander in

2 Rajlovac.

3 Q. Now, in mid-June, he was replaced by Lieutenant-Colonel

4 Milos Golijanin as the commander of the brigade. That's also correct,

5 isn't it?

6 A. Certainly, but I don't know about those dates either, when that

7 took place.

8 Q. Okay. Now, when you became a battalion commander in 1992, your

9 battalion was also part of the Rajlovac Brigade; correct?

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. Now, in paragraph 14 of your statement, you --

12 MR. JEREMY: And actually, let's take a look at that, D643,

13 please. Yeah, I see it's on the screen. Could we go to e-court page 2.

14 Q. Mr. Dzino, in paragraph 14, you refer to a request made on the

15 29th of May, 1992, by Hasan Mujkic to Jovo Bozic, the then president of

16 the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac. This request was to evacuate the

17 women and children in Ahatovici to Sarajevo. You go on to say an

18 agreement was not reached because the Serbs considered this to be a

19 preparation for an attack on Serbian settlements. You state:

20 "As soon as the women and children are gone, then the men can do

21 as they please, is what we thought."

22 You recall these events, yes?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, between the 29th of May, 1992, and the 2nd of June, 1992, an

25 attack was launched by Serb forces on Ahatovici; correct?

Page 25702

1 A. The Serb forces carried out a counter-attack.

2 Q. Okay. But regardless of semantics, there was an attack, whether

3 it was an initial attack or a counter-attack, by Serb forces on Ahatovici

4 between the 29th of May and the 2nd of June, 1992. That's correct, isn't

5 it?

6 A. That's not correct. If you did not understand me about

7 counter-attack, then this is how I'm going to explain it to you. On the

8 29th, around 2000 hours, the Muslim forces shelled the Krsnica hill. On

9 the morning of the 30th of May, at 6.50, likewise they shelled the houses

10 of my family. And Luka Damjanovic, Marinko Zdrale, and my

11 daughter-in-law Mila Dzino, they were all wounded so they hid the barn.

12 After that, there was combat. How you are going to characterise

13 is your affair, but we carried out a counter-attack. And the fighting

14 went on until the 4th of June, 1992.

15 JUDGE ORIE: This was all admitted by Mr. Jeremy. He said, well,

16 even if would be a counter-attack, it would still be an attack. A

17 counter-attack also is an attack, isn't it? So therefore there was no

18 need to explain as you did because that was all included in Mr. Jeremy's

19 question.

20 Mr. Jeremy, please proceed.

21 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Dzino, you've referred to mortars being involved in this

23 attack. Now, in paragraph 21 of your statement, you say -- you refer to

24 a number of attacks from Orasnica and from Ahatovici, and I think those

25 might be the events that you have just referred to in your answer. And

Page 25703

1 you say:

2 "The battle was waged with mortars at a distance."

3 So, Mr. Dzino, it's correct, isn't it, that when the Muslims in

4 Ahatovici refused an ultimatum to surrender, their village was shelled;

5 correct?

6 A. No. What you are talking about happened on the 30th, the 30th of

7 May, in the evening. I mean this ultimatum. I found out from people --

8 I mean, it wasn't a special organisation. All the people who had rifles

9 were there and they said that Hasan asked for the Muslims to go out. So

10 then we understood that this was no command. It's not that an attack was

11 being expected and so on and so forth. So this shelling start on the

12 30th in the morning at some point, but at any rate after 8.00.

13 Q. Okay. So on the 30th of May, 1992, Ahatovici was shelled.

14 That's correct, isn't it?

15 A. Not correct. Places from where there was shooting were targeted.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Can I just try to get back to facts, nothing else.

17 Were any shells, mortar shells, fired at Ahatovici or targets within the

18 Ahatovici area by Serbs?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

21 MR. JEREMY:

22 Q. Now, Mr. Dzino, your unit was involved in this attack. That's

23 correct, isn't it?

24 A. You are trying to say that we attacked something or someone. We

25 were defending our houses. We --

Page 25704

1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, witness, I stop you again. An attack

2 includes a counter-attack. You've told us now two or three times that

3 there was a counter-attack. You told us you told us that mortar shells

4 were fired at positions in Ahatovici.

5 Please, if Mr. Jeremy uses the word "attack," please understand

6 it in that way, that is, counter-attack, whether he agrees or not but he

7 follows your language in this respect. Would you please not again and

8 again respond to matters which you have clarified already where

9 Mr. Jeremy uses language which is in accordance with your testimony.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

11 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Mr. Dzino, when Ahatovici was being shelled on the 30th of May,

13 1992, those women and children who had requested to be evacuated from

14 Ahatovici, they were still present in Ahatovici; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, by the 2nd of June, 1992, Muslim civilians from Ahatovici

17 surrendered to the Serbian military; correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. JEREMY: Could we please take a look at an exhibit in

20 connection with this, P03793.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Dzino, on our screens is a report from the Romanija

22 Brcani CSB of the Bosnian Serb MUP on events in the Sarajevo area. If we

23 see at the bottom of the page it is dated the 3rd of June, 1992, and we

24 see it is type signed "Analytical and Information Service."

25 And in paragraph 3 of this document we read:

Page 25705

1 "In the area of the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac, MZ local

2 commune Dobrosevici, we engaged in fierce fighting with the Green Berets

3 from the village of Ahatovici who, with the support of HOS, Croatian

4 Defence Forces members from Kiseljak attacked the villages of

5 Dobrosevici, Mihaljevici, and Golubici. The enemy was overwhelmed. The

6 village of Ahatovici was liberated and is controlled by the Serbian

7 Army."

8 Mr. Dzino, it is correct by the 3rd of June, 1992, Ahatovici was

9 controlled by the Serbian army; yes?

10 A. No.

11 Q. So is it your position that this report, this MUP report is

12 incorrect?

13 A. Ahatovici came under control on the 4th of June. Because on the

14 4th of June, in the final fighting, we had one casualty and two Muslim

15 soldiers were killed.

16 Q. All right. So by the 4th of June, Ahatovici was under control of

17 the Serbian army; correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. I'd like to focus on the final two sentences in the same

20 paragraph that I've been reading from and they read as follows:

21 "Some 50 Green Berets and HOS members were captured and are being

22 interrogated in the Rajlovac barracks."

23 Mr. Dzino, you are aware that men from Ahatovici were detained

24 following the takeover of Ahatovici by the Serbian army. Yes?

25 A. Yes.

Page 25706

1 Q. And you're also aware that many of those persons were beaten,

2 some of them to death. Yes?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Your Honours, may I put a question?

5 JUDGE ORIE: You cannot put questions. You were asked whether

6 you were aware of many of those persons had been beaten, some of them to

7 death. And you have answered that question that you're not aware of

8 that. That's an answer to the question, and just wait for the next

9 question to be put to you by Mr. Jeremy.

10 MR. JEREMY:

11 Q. So is it your evidence that you were not aware of it at the time

12 or that you never gained any awareness of beatings and in some cases

13 killings of men who were taken from the village of Ahatovici to the

14 Rajlovac barracks?

15 A. The first time I came to the Rajlovac barracks on the

16 28th of June, 1992. And if you are asking me about prisoners of war, my

17 unit killed 13 Muslim soldiers and captured 19. Of those 19, none of

18 them, absolutely not a single one was mistreated.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you said "if you ask me," but that's not

20 what Mr. Jeremy asked you. Mr. Jeremy asked you whether it was only at

21 the time that you were not aware of beatings and people being killed in

22 the barracks or that you never gained any awareness of such events.

23 Could you please answer that question.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] when I came to the barracks, to the

25 unit, and this happened later, I found out that there were such things.

Page 25707

1 But this happened after a month or two. At that point in time, I wasn't

2 even working.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you became aware one or two months after

4 such beatings and killings may have happened.

5 Next question, please, Mr. Jeremy.

6 MR. JEREMY:

7 Q. Mr. Dzino, were you aware that some of those same persons who

8 were taken from Ahatovici were subsequently loaded on to a bus and told

9 that they would be exchanged, and at one point this bus was stopped, Serb

10 forces got out, and the bus was attacked with small arms and rocket

11 launchers. Were you aware of this particular event?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And at any time had you gained any knowledge about this

14 particular event or is this the first time you're hearing of it today?

15 A. It's an ambiguous question. I found out about the events and I'm

16 not hearing of that for the first time today.

17 Q. So when was it that you first found out about this attack on the

18 bus?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Was it in 1992, 1993, 1994? Can you give a rough time frame?

21 During the period of the war?

22 A. During the war, 100 per cent.

23 Q. In the early part of the war or at the end of the war, in 1992 or

24 in 1995?

25 A. Before 1995.

Page 25708

1 Q. Okay. Let's go back to the document that we've been looking at.

2 I'm going to read the next sentence in the same paragraph I've been

3 reading from.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could I nevertheless ask you, was it briefly after

5 it had happened, that is, the summer of 1992, or was it considerably

6 later that you learned about that incident?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Significantly later.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.

9 MR. JEREMY: Thank you.

10 Q. Mr. Dzino, so I'm looking again at the document on the screen

11 before us and I'm going to read the last sentence of the third paragraph.

12 It states:

13 "The Serbian army has temporarily sheltered ethnic Muslim women

14 and children in the Gavrilo Princip OS, primary school."

15 Now, Mr. Dzino you were aware that hundreds of civilians from

16 Ahatovici were detained in various locations in Rajlovac; yes?

17 A. Well, this is new, the elementary school, the primary school

18 Gavrilo Princip. I didn't know where they were being detained actually.

19 Q. Okay. So you knew that they were being detained but you just

20 weren't sure of the exact locations; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. JEREMY: Thank you. We're finished with that document.

23 Q. Mr. Dzino, it's clear from the answers you've provided that on

24 the 4th of June, 1992, the Serb army was in control of Ahatovici;

25 correct?

Page 25709

1 A. Entered Ahatovici.

2 Q. Okay. Now, on that same day, the 4th of June, 1992, the mosque

3 in Ahatovici was destroyed. Yes?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. JEREMY: Could we please take a look at an exhibit in

6 connection with this, it's a picture of the mosque. It's P2510. This is

7 the report of Prosecution expert Andras Riedlmayer. And if we could

8 please go to page 214 in the English and page 215 in the B/C/S.

9 JUDGE ORIE: By the way, Witness, you said that the -- your

10 forces entered Ahatovici on the 4th of June. One of your previous

11 answers was: "Ahatovici came under control on the 4th of June," and then

12 you explained why. So therefore, that's -- saying that it was not under

13 your control but you entered Ahatovici only is inconsistent with one of

14 the previous answers you gave.

15 Mr. Jeremy, please proceed.

16 MR. JEREMY:

17 Q. Mr. Dzino, just to pick up on the Presiding Judge's question, is

18 it correct that on entering Ahatovici on the 4th of June, 1992, the

19 Serbian army gained control of Ahatovici?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, do you recognise the building on the screen before you as

22 what used to be the Ahatovici mosque?

23 A. I believe that it is but I do not recognise it.

24 Q. Now, you actually saw this being destroyed, didn't you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 25710

1 Q. And it was destroyed by the Serbian army; correct?

2 A. Well, if you wish, I can describe the event.

3 Q. First of all, could you confirm whether or not it was destroyed

4 by the Serbian army?

5 A. The mosque was destroyed at the point in time when the Serbian

6 army entered Ahatovici. I was observing that from a point. I mean, the

7 army entered Ahatovici and the mosque was blown up. It was a large

8 explosion. I was at least 500 metres or one kilometre as the crow flies

9 away from that spot, and so the minaret of the mosque flew up like a

10 spaceship. Combat was under way. Our man died and two Muslim soldiers

11 and there was -- were killed, and there was fierce firing at the time,

12 mortars and other type of fire.

13 Q. Okay. So if it was destroyed at the point in time when the

14 Serbian army entered Ahatovici, then is it correct that it was the

15 Serbian army that destroyed the mosque?

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 MR. JEREMY: Now, could we please go to page 215 in the English

18 in this document and 217 in the B/C/S.

19 Q. Now, Mr. Dzino, here we find an article relating to these events

20 in Ahatovici. It's written by the AFP, Agence France Presse, and it's

21 dated the 14th of June, 1992, so approximately two weeks or so after the

22 events we've been discussing.

23 Now we see the title is: "Survivors recount village horror." In

24 the first part --

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Jeremy, I have some doubt if the B/C/S

Page 25711

1 version on the screen is the correct one. It doesn't correspond with the

2 English version.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from the author apparently being a different

4 person, Adrian Brown seems not to be the same person as David Botbol.

5 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I think we now have it.

7 MR. JEREMY: I've been assisted. Thank you very much. That's

8 the correct document on the screen. Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Dzino, in the first part you see this article, the heading

10 is: "Survivors recount village horror." Do you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, in the first part of the article we read that the survivors

13 referred to are from the Ahatovici village. I want to focus your

14 attention on the description halfway down the article where we read as

15 follows:

16 "'On the first day of the attack, the Serbians began shooting at

17 the houses with automatic weapons,' remembered Elvira Gacanovic, 18."

18 "'Next day, they unleashed full-scale shelling. The torrent of

19 the fire lasted three whole days. On the fourth day, we surrendered.'"

20 "Speaking with no apparent emotion, she went on: 'The extremists

21 came into the village then. Using loud-hailers they told us to gather

22 and they immediately separated the men from the others. The mosque and

23 many houses were burning.'"

24 Mr. Dzino, this is an accurate description of the takeover of

25 Ahatovici village. Yes?

Page 25712

1 A. I don't know about this description because I was on the other

2 side of Ahatovici. What was happening on the east side of Ahatovici is

3 something that I'm not familiar with. We didn't have a system of

4 communication set up. At the time I was still at my unit's defensive

5 positions, meaning that we did not know what was happening and that was

6 not in our line of vision. I saw the explosion of the mosque because it

7 was so visible, and it happens to be in a kind of valley and I was

8 prevented from seeing more by an elevation. There were houses there in

9 that area.

10 We entered Ahatovici only on the 4th of June and I think this is

11 not correct if we're talking about the 4th of June. This could have

12 happened on the 2nd of June, when these Muslim soldiers were captured or

13 killed. I think that that was when these civilians surrendered. I don't

14 know. Really, don't ask me about this information. I don't know. It's

15 definite that they were -- that they surrendered, that they were

16 evacuated. That's true. As for this, I don't know anything about that.

17 I don't believe that this was on the 4th of June. I mean, I don't think

18 that the mosque was set on fire on that day. So that's it.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Dzino. I'm satisfied with the information

20 that you've provided in respect to this particular incident and I won't

21 pursue further on it.

22 Let's move on to a different topic.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, could I ask one question. You said

24 you were at your defence positions. Who then exactly entered Ahatovici?

25 Which Serb unit entered?

Page 25713

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which date are we talking about?

2 JUDGE ORIE: The time before, as you said, on the 4th of June,

3 you went to Ahatovici, you said you saw the mosque being blown up. Which

4 unit, which Serb unit was at that point in time engaging the village of

5 Ahatovici?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know which specific unit

7 was in that action but it was all part of the so-called Territorial

8 Defence. These were units on the other side of the village. The village

9 is about six -- actually not, it's about three or four kilometres long,

10 that was our local commune. So we were in the western part and we don't

11 know what was happening on the other side of the village. We didn't have

12 communications or radio communication. There was only a messenger link.

13 So that part is even more densely populated on the other side, but it was

14 the unit of the Territorial Defence.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Were they also self-organised units?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Where did they get the mortars from which apparently

18 were used when firing at Ahatovici?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The mortars were at the Rajlovac

20 barracks.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And how did you know that?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that because when I came to

23 Rajlovac later, the mortars were there and they were closer to Rajlovac

24 and could communicate with Rajlovac. We didn't have telephone links with

25 Rajlovac, with the command, so we just self-organised on our own

Page 25714

1 self-initiative. And ultimately it was in our line of vision. You could

2 see that entire terrain from a number of spots.

3 JUDGE ORIE: And were those mortars part of the weaponry of the

4 Rajlovac Brigade?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot answer that question. I

6 don't know what the composition of the brigade was at the time. I know

7 what it was later but at that point in time, I don't know which part of

8 the units it belonged to.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You see in the Rajlovac barracks, you see mortars

10 yourself, and you couldn't tell us to what unit or to what entity those

11 mortars belonged?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, Your Honour, I came to

13 Rajlovac after a month, after Ahatovici. Mortars I saw perhaps after two

14 months because I wasn't interested in that and I didn't need them. I

15 know that they existed. Actually, I never saw any mortars in the

16 Rajlovac Brigade but I know that they were there, but that wasn't part of

17 my job.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I think you said that you had seen them but let

19 me -- I'll check that later on.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to that.

22 Witness, we'll take a break. You may follow the usher. We'd

23 like to see you back in 20 minutes.

24 [The witness stands down]

25 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.

Page 25715

1 --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 12.24 p.m.

3 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, the next document I'm going to call up

4 is 65 ter 03800. It might make sense to do that now.

5 [The witness takes the stand]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, you may continue.

7 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Q. Mr. Dzino, I now want to move to the purpose of the formation of

9 the Rajlovac municipality. Now, coming up on the screen before you is an

10 excerpt of the Official Gazette of the Republika Srpska which is dated

11 24th of February, 1993. Now, in this gazette we see a printout of a

12 decree on the promulgation of the Law on the Establishment of the

13 Rajlovac Municipality with headquarters in Rajlovac. Now this decree is

14 dated the 15th of May, 1992. Do you see that?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Now, the law itself is reproduced below this decree.

17 MR. JEREMY: And if we can go to the second page in English,

18 please. And if we zoom out a little in the B/C/S. We should see that

19 the law is dated the 11th of May, 1992. And we see it is signed by the

20 President of the Assembly of Serbian People, Momcilo Krajisnik.

21 Q. Do you see that, Mr. Dzino?

22 A. I don't see the signature but I do see the name.

23 Q. Yes, you've corrected me. It's a typed name rather than a

24 signature. You're absolutely right.

25 MR. JEREMY: Could we go to page 1 in the English, please. And,

Page 25716

1 again, if we could zoom out a little on the B/C/S to focus in on the law.

2 Q. Now, Mr. Dzino, in article 1 of this law we read that the

3 Rajlovac municipality, consisting of the territory of the current and

4 former Sarajevo Novi Grad municipality, is hereby established.

5 Now looking at article 2 of this law, we see the territorial

6 extent of the Sarajevo Rajlovac municipality is identified and among

7 other areas it includes Bojnik, Dobrosevici, and Ahatovici.

8 Now, the local commune of Dobrosevici included all of these

9 areas; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So it is therefore also correct that the local commune of

12 Dobrosevici was incorporated within the municipality of Rajlovac. Yes?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And that included the 1.066 Muslims and 200 Croats who were

15 living in local commune who you refer to in paragraph 6 of your

16 statement. Yes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, of those 1.066 Muslims in the local Dobrosevici commune,

19 approximately half or even more were in Ahatovici; correct?

20 A. More or less, yes.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Dzino, using the numbers that you provide in your

22 statement, it is a fact, is it not, that of the 1.066 Muslims and

23 200 Croats in the Dobrosevici local commune in 1991, after this commune

24 became part of the municipality of Rajlovac, only four families remained,

25 specifically three Croat families and one Muslim family. That's correct,

Page 25717

1 isn't it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, Mr. Dzino, I put it to you that the fact that of these

4 1.066 Muslims, the fact that only one family remained, and of the

5 200 Croats, the fact that only three families remained after the Serbian

6 municipality of Rajlovac was proclaimed, it is simply not credible for

7 you to state as you do in paragraph 68 of your statement that:

8 "In the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac, which is at the same

9 time the zone of responsibility of my brigade, there was no persecution

10 policy on religious or ethnic grounds."

11 I put it to you that that statement simply isn't credible given

12 the numbers you, yourself, use in your statement.

13 A. To a degree. When we're talking about Croatian families, Croat

14 families, I'm not thinking about a family in one house. These are the

15 families with the following surnames: Rebo, Martinovic, Dosljak [phoen].

16 There were plenty of them, many of them. So the bulk of the Croats

17 remained. But what you're telling me now, this happened after the combat

18 actions. Until the combat, all of those people were living there. There

19 were Croats. I don't know what you mean when you say three families, ten

20 members, there were many Croats, let's say, 50 or 100.

21 Q. Mr. Dzino, the three families that I refer to, the three Croat

22 families, are the families that you name in paragraph 68 of your

23 statement. The one Muslim family that I refer to is the single Muslim

24 family that you refer to in paragraph 68 of your statement. So it is a

25 fact, is it not, that focussing on the Muslims, for example, that of the

Page 25718

1 1.066 Muslims who were in the -- in Dobrosevici before the proclamation

2 of the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac, only a single family remained

3 after that time. That's a fact, isn't it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, today you decided to change or correct paragraphs 14 and 68

6 of your statement to remove the prefix "Serbian" from what you had

7 previously referred to as the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac.

8 Now, it's a fact, isn't it, that --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, from an information report, we learn -

10 and we have not verified it, but I hope you have done that - that this is

11 consistent with something the witness has said in the Karadzic case. So

12 then to say "you have changed today" seems not to be fair to him unless

13 you would challenge that the change was already made in the Karadzic

14 case.

15 The change "Serbian municipality" to "municipality," it reads:

16 "This is consistent with the correction made at the time of his

17 Karadzic testimony."

18 Therefore, I find that if you have not verified that, I think it

19 would be appropriate to do that first before you put to the witness that

20 he changed his mind today.

21 MR. JEREMY: Well, Your Honours, my position would be that this

22 change was not dealt with as a correction to the Karadzic statement, for

23 example, during the 92 ter tendering process. It's possible that given

24 the answers of the witness during his testimony in the Karadzic case, it

25 may be that he -- he's changed his position in respect to the Serbian

Page 25719

1 prefix. I don't think it's -- I take your point.

2 JUDGE ORIE: You put to the witness: "Today you decided to

3 change or correct paragraphs 14 and 68 of your statement." In view of

4 what we read in the information report, that's unfair, unless you have

5 good reasons to believe that what is said in the information report is

6 incorrect. And we also know that we are dealing with a statement which

7 was taken for the Karadzic case, so that dates back from before the

8 Karadzic testimony, and therefore it's -- at least if I see the date, I

9 think it was 2012, and I take it that that statement was taken before

10 4th of November, 2012.

11 Please keep this in mind when you put anything to the witness.

12 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

13 Q. Mr. Dzino, it's a fact, isn't it, that during the conflict, the

14 prefix "Serbian" became commonplace when referring to the municipality of

15 Rajlovac; correct?

16 A. In documents on the formation of the municipality of Rajlovac,

17 the word "Serbian" does not exist. It was something among the people,

18 Serbian, because it was Muslim this, Croat that, so that's how it was

19 Serbian that. However, in the name of the municipality of Rajlovac, the

20 adjective "Serbian" does not exist. It's the municipality of Rajlovac.

21 Q. Okay. And I'd like to read you a section of your testimony in

22 the Karadzic case and I suspect that it's this section that convinced you

23 to make the change we see in your statement.

24 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 31250. And if we could

25 go to page 11 in e-court, please. If we go down to the bottom of the

Page 25720

1 page, please, line 21.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no translation into

3 Serbian.

4 Q. Mr. Dzino, I'm going to read the relevant section to you. In

5 fact, I'll go from line 16, where the Prosecutor says the following:

6 "You can consult the relevant page of your statement. My

7 question to you is: Why was it called the Serbian municipality of

8 Rajlovac?"

9 Your answer:

10 "I apologise, I apologise. What paragraph are you referring me

11 to?

12 "Q. Sixty-eight."

13 Your answer:

14 "Prosecutor, sir, maybe we are talking at cross-purposes here.

15 When Rajlovac municipality was founded, I don't know whether it had the

16 prefix 'Serbian' in its name. Later on it became commonplace. That's

17 why I used it. The way I understood your question was whether the prefix

18 'Srpski' was used from the very outset, from the moment when Rajlovac

19 municipality was established. Later on, especially during the conflict,

20 it became a common practice to call it the Serbian municipality of

21 Rajlovac.

22 "Q. And why was it called the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac?

23 "A. Well, I haven't a clue. I suppose because Serbs resided in

24 that municipality."

25 Mr. Dzino, do you stand by the answers that you provided to those

Page 25721

1 questions in the Karadzic case?

2 A. During the redirect, and talking about the order about the

3 forming of the municipality of Rajlovac, I understood -- actually, until

4 then, I didn't know whether it was called the Serbian municipality or the

5 municipality of Rajlovac. That was when I saw that it was the

6 municipality of Rajlovac without the prefix "Serbian." At the point in

7 time when I provided this answer, I didn't know this.

8 Q. In your answer, Mr. Dzino, I read at the top of the page that

9 we're looking at:

10 "Later on, especially during the conflict, it became a common

11 practice to call it the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac."

12 Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay.

15 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'd like to tender the document that

16 we were looking at a moment ago, 65 ter 30800 [sic].

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P6754, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

20 Mr. Jeremy, if you would have not used the word "today," I would

21 not have intervened.

22 MR. JEREMY: Just to correct the record, it's 65 ter 03800.

23 Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: It's hereby on the record.

25 MR. JEREMY:

Page 25722

1 Q. Now, Mr. Dzino, you refer at paragraph 14 of your statement to

2 Jovo Bozic and I've already mentioned him today. Now, he was the

3 president of the municipality of Rajlovac; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, he was the person who a representative of Ahatovici had

6 appealed to unsuccessfully when seeking to evacuate the women and

7 children before the shelling of Ahatovici started. Yes?

8 A. I cannot give you a precise answer because I never was in touch

9 with him on that particular topic. However, on the 26th of May,

10 information had reached us that Hasan Mujkic and the president of the

11 Rajlovac municipality discussed the topic of allowing the evacuees, women

12 and children to pass. I don't know if the meeting did take place or not.

13 All I know is that information reached our unit that they had contacted

14 each other.

15 Q. Okay. So you knew Jovo Bozic; yes?

16 A. Of course.

17 Q. Right. I'd like to take a look at a statement of his.

18 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 16018.

19 Q. Mr. Dzino, while this is being brought up, I'll tell you it is a

20 statement of Jovo Bozic, president of the Rajlovac War Commission, to the

21 RS State Security, dated the 17th of December, 1992.

22 Now, if we look at the first paragraph on this first page, we see

23 in the last few lines that the statement was provided on the

24 17th of December, 1992.

25 MR. JEREMY: If we could go to the last page, please, in each

Page 25723

1 language. We see that the statement was given by Jovo Bozic and we see

2 that it is -- there's a signature under his name.

3 Could we go back to the first page, please.

4 Q. Mr. Dzino, on this first page under the subheading "Statement,"

5 we read:

6 "I was appointed president of the Serbian municipality of

7 Rajlovac in the month of May and I am still holding that position."

8 MR. JEREMY: Now, could we please go to the second page in the

9 English where I'd like to read a couple of paragraphs that we find there

10 to you. And I think they're found on the last three lines of the B/C/S.

11 It begins with the words: "Motive for forming ..."

12 Q. Do you see those words, Mr. Dzino? I'll read out the paragraph.

13 It states:

14 "Motive for forming Serbian municipality of Rajlovac was its

15 previous existence up to 1958 when it was abolished only because the

16 Serbs made majority of population. In order to prevent even greater

17 expansion of the Muslims settling to this area, as well as illegal

18 construction of the houses, the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac was

19 formed even before the war. Everything was done with the aim of

20 preserving Serbian territory and in close connection with all political

21 circles that represented Serbian people and their interests in this area

22 in the multiparty period of power in the former BH."

23 Now, Mr. Dzino, you would agree that the president of the

24 municipality of Rajlovac is referring to this municipality as the Serbian

25 municipality of Rajlovac. Yes?

Page 25724

1 A. This is his statement. I am really not able to comment on it.

2 But that's what it states, so I don't even know what I would be supposed

3 to say to a question -- to the question that you put.

4 Q. Your answer is fine. Thank you.

5 It's clear that the motive that he gives for the establishment of

6 the Serb municipality of Rajlovac was, on the one hand, to prevent an

7 even greater expansion of Muslims settling into the area, and on the

8 other hand, preserving of Serbian territory. That's his position. Yes?

9 A. Yes, unfortunately you cannot ask him and I cannot answer for

10 him. He died. This is his own opinion.

11 Q. I'd like to take a look at the next paragraph.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, is it clear to the witness that the

13 statement in this part deals with the activities of the war commission

14 even before the conflict started? Perhaps the witness could tell us

15 something of whether he knows anything about the war commission. If not,

16 of course, we can move on.

17 MR. JEREMY: Of course. Could we go to the first page in this

18 document, please.

19 Q. Now, Mr. Dzino, I read the -- under the subheading "Statement," I

20 read the first sentence to you when I started to look at this document.

21 But in the second sentence, we see:

22 "Within municipality activities in war conditions, the

23 War Commission has been established," we read the names of various

24 persons that it consisted of.

25 Do you know what that war commission was?

Page 25725

1 A. I will find out later what the function of a war commission was,

2 but for the first time I'm seeing its composition. I'm not familiar with

3 its work or with this statement or anything that has to do with the

4 war commission.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

6 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Q. Mr. Dzino, I see one of the names of the people in that

8 war commission was Mirko Krajisnik. He was Momcilo Krajisnik's brother;

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. Now, I accept that you're not familiar with the purpose of

12 this war commission. The reason why I'm showing you this document is

13 simply because you knew the author of the document. He was the president

14 of your municipality. And I'm simply interested in what you have to say

15 about the comments that he makes about the purpose or the motive for the

16 formation of the municipality of Rajlovac. You've provided me with

17 comments on the sections that I've read to you so far.

18 MR. JEREMY: I'd like to go back to the second page, please.

19 Q. Now, in this second paragraph on the second page, we read that he

20 reported to Mr. Krajisnik. He reported the results of the meetings of

21 this war commission.

22 In the second sentence of that paragraph --

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In this case for clarity, you should say he

24 reported to Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik.

25 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours. Yes.

Page 25726

1 Q. Mr. Dzino, it's clear to you that the report here is to

2 Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik and not his brother. Just to make that clear.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, I'm interested in the second sentence in this paragraph

5 which reads as follows:

6 "On a few occasions, at the various meetings, I have expressed my

7 impressions and proposals in front of the most responsible persons from

8 the command of the armed forces of Republika Srpska, General Ratko Mladic

9 and General Galic."

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Colonel Galic.

11 MR. JEREMY: Colonel Galic. Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Mr. Dzino, were you aware of coordination between Jovo Bozic and

13 the persons he named in this paragraph including -- or namely,

14 Momcilo Krajisnik, General Mladic and Colonel Galic?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection. I think that the --

17 this is a wrong quote. In my translation, I got was he aware or did he

18 know about coordination with General Mladic, Colonel -- General Galic. I

19 would like a bit more clarification about where coordination is mentioned

20 between these three persons.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not get the name of

22 the third person.

23 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained. I take it that if you

24 refer to consultations rather than coordination that you could phrase the

25 question again.

Page 25727

1 MR. JEREMY: Yes.

2 Q. Mr. Dzino, were you aware of meetings held between Jovo Bozic,

3 Momcilo Krajisnik, General Mladic, and Colonel Galic?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Okay. We'll move on. Thank you.

6 Mr. Dzino, I'd like to discuss the final area with you today

7 which is sniping. Now, you've already answered some questions in

8 relation to this area in response to Mr. Stojanovic's questions and I'd

9 like to refer you to one of the answers that you provided today. That's

10 at temporary transcript page 32, the final line, 25, and it goes into

11 page 33 down to page [sic] 3.

12 You stated -- in response to a question in relation to whether

13 your unit had professional snipers you provided the following answer:

14 "Thank you. We did not have any snipers. The best

15 sharpshooters, soldiers, would receive snipers. So that's in the course

16 of combat they would be able to use them because we did not want to waste

17 any ammunition."

18 Now, I simply want to clarify with you, Mr. Dzino, that when you

19 refer to snipers being received, you're referring to sniper rifles. Yes?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, I understand your position to be that the --

22 those persons who used these sniper rifles did not receive any training;

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Dzino, yesterday in this courtroom, Mihajlo Vujasin,

Page 25728

1 your former brigade commander, confirmed to the Trial Chamber that he

2 could not exclude the possibility that people within the Rajlovac Brigade

3 were trained in the use of rifles and that optical sights may have been

4 mounted on the rifles that were within the brigade.

5 Now, would you agree with Mr. Vujasin that you cannot exclude the

6 possibility that persons who used these rifles did receive training?

7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, Colonel Vujasin was in Rajlovac for a few months

8 and I was there all four years of the war. As far as I'm concerned and

9 my unit, I'm not aware of a single individual having undergone sniper

10 training. That is my position and that is certainly correct.

11 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I have no further questions.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzino.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jeremy.

14 Mr. Stojanovic, any questions in redirect?

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A few, Your Honour.

16 Could we please have a look at document P3932 in e-court.

17 JUDGE ORIE: No speaking allowed, Mr. Mladic. You know the

18 rules. If you need to consult with Mr. Stojanovic, of course I'll make a

19 short pause.

20 Mr. Stojanovic, apparently your client wants to consult with you.

21 You have an opportunity to.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. With your leave

23 then.

24 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone.

Page 25729

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

2 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dzino, this is a document dated the

4 22nd of May, 1992. If you can see this well, and if the translation is

5 right, this would be from the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps with

6 the signature of the then commander, Colonel Tomislav Sipcic. This is

7 what it says in paragraph E, if you can see it on the first page.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could we have the next

9 page in English, please.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. This has to do with the establishment of units. So, he says on

12 the 22nd of May, 1992, this is an order on the establishment of the

13 Rajlovac TO Brigade, should be formed from the territory of Semizovac and

14 Rajlovac. The commander of the brigade will be the commander of the

15 Crisis Staff, and on behalf of the corps, Major Dragomir Krstovic will be

16 responsible for the formation of the brigade.

17 My first question, do you know Major Dragomir Krstovic?

18 A. I do not.

19 Q. Second question. Your knowledge in relation to the end of May

20 and the beginning of June, was the Rajlovac Brigade constituted at all on

21 the ground?

22 A. Absolutely not.

23 Q. At the time of the fighting that took place in your village of

24 Mihaljevici, Dobrosevici, Ahatovici, was there an established brigade,

25 Rajlovac Brigade, from a military point of view?

Page 25730

1 A. No.

2 Q. And I'm going to ask you the following: Do you know anything

3 about the existence of a Crisis Staff and a Crisis Staff commander in the

4 area of Semizovac and Rajlovac?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Could you please tell me whether the territory of Semizovac, as

7 the Rajlovac Brigade was established during the war, became part of the

8 Rajlovac Brigade or some other brigade of the Army of Republika Srpska?

9 THE INTERPRETER: We did not hear the witness.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat your answer. The interpreters

11 could not hear you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It did not become part of the

13 Rajlovac Brigade.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Q. Now I'd like to ask you to clarify certain things. Today, when

16 answering the Prosecutor's questions, page 41 from line 6 onwards of

17 LiveNote, you spoke about shelling in the fighting around Ahatovici.

18 This is what I'd like to ask you, only this: From the position where you

19 were, did you notice whether from the 29th until the end of the combat

20 activities on the 4th of June, if I understand this correctly, were

21 civilian parts of Ahatovici ever shelled or was it places from where the

22 artillery was firing from Muslim-held positions?

23 A. The only places that were hit were the places from where the

24 Muslim artillery was firing. Only that.

25 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber specifically which

Page 25731

1 positions these were that you observed, namely that the Muslim artillery

2 was firing from there?

3 A. The hill of Orasnica from Ahatovici. So this is Strahoc, an

4 elevation above Ahatovici.

5 Q. Thank you. You also answered questions today that have to do

6 with your knowledge about this tragic incident that had to do with the

7 killing of prisoners on the bus; page 44, lines 2 and 3 of LiveNote. I

8 just want to clarify this further by the following question. You said

9 that you had certain knowledge considerably later. And I'm asking you,

10 what was this that you heard and what did you hear, and where did that

11 happen?

12 A. This is what I knew: Nobody knew who attacked the bus. The bus

13 was attacked in an intermediate zone between the Serb and the Muslim

14 positions. So this zone included the road from Sarajevo to Pale, there

15 was no other road. It was a forest road. I don't know how long it was.

16 And in that area, it could have been anybody's units because there was

17 not a single line there. It wasn't the Muslim line, it wasn't --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you have no personal knowledge about it.

19 You're telling us what about you heard and you're speculating on who

20 might have attacked or might not have attacked that bus, whereas this

21 Chamber has received evidence which is more direct.

22 Mr. Stojanovic, hearsay evidence of this kind including

23 speculations is not what assists the Chamber. If you have any specific

24 questions about the knowledge of the witness, then of course you may

25 proceed.

Page 25732

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm going to ask

2 him now in view of the practice we've had so far concerning hearsay.

3 Q. Who did you hear this from?

4 A. Much, much later, I went to Pale. I took that road and I saw

5 that bus. So perhaps it was 1994. I mean much later. And I saw where

6 it was that that had happened.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you, then, tell us exactly the location?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know the

10 exact location but I did see it.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I

13 kindly ask that I be allowed to approach my client once again. Thank

14 you.

15 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Q. The next thing I wanted to ask you. When responding to my

18 colleague's questions about the number of inhabitants who stayed on after

19 the war broke out - so this is page 54, lines 10 through 16 of today's

20 transcript - I'm asking you the following: These Muslim inhabitants from

21 the area of Rajlovac, were they expelled or did they leave for some

22 reasons known to them?

23 A. Unless combat started, everybody lived there. It would be the

24 best if I had a map here and then I could show you what the situation

25 was. The lower parts of this local commune, most of them were Muslim

Page 25733

1 inhabitants who of their own free will left to this territory that was

2 held -- well, actually it was held by no one. It was no man's land, HVO,

3 Muslim forces. As for this other thing, I mean the 2nd of July -- no,

4 the 2nd of June, 1992, that is part of the population that is within this

5 central part of Ahatovici. Now these numbers, I don't know about that.

6 I don't know. I don't know how they left and I don't want to guess.

7 One family, I mean, now that we're speaking of families, so this

8 is several members, the entire Pasic family stayed on living with us for

9 a while. Since the situation was so unsettled, they thought that they

10 were not safe, although nobody had touched them. So they left of their

11 own free will, went towards Kiseljak. Ahra Pasic, her mother and her

12 father stayed on.

13 As for Croat families, in every Croat house, there were members

14 of the family involved. Younger men joined the army. By then it was

15 already the Army of Republika Srpska because in the meantime it was

16 established. So that was the situation in the local commune.

17 Q. Thank you. In view of your position and the status you had at

18 the time, during these years of war, was there a certain practice, namely

19 that people would follow their own army and that there would be a

20 concentration of people depending on the positions of their army?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy.

22 MR. JEREMY: That's a leading question, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: It certainly is, and a foundation has not been laid

24 for that question. Therefore, Mr. Stojanovic, would you please

25 reconsider the question and certainly rephrase it.

Page 25734

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I'm going to

2 lay a foundation.

3 Q. During these first years of the war and later on, this area that

4 was held by the Army of Republika Srpska, did Serb refugees come there,

5 population who fled HVO and Muslim-held areas?

6 A. I didn't hear the question. I just didn't hear the question.

7 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine that you didn't hear the question

8 because the question was as leading as the previous one, that's one, and

9 second, was not seeking to lay a foundation.

10 So therefore, Mr. Stojanovic, either you approach the matter in

11 an appropriate phrasing of the question or you move on.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

13 Q. During the first months of the war and later, did refugees show

14 up in the territory of the municipality of Rajlovac?

15 A. The entire --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you apparently do not know what a

17 leading question is. Would you please now move on to the next one. I

18 gave you two opportunities to phrase the question in an appropriate way.

19 You didn't do it. Therefore, next question, please.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I will, Your Honour.

21 Q. Will you please tell us if the village of Zabrdje was part of the

22 Rajlovac municipality?

23 A. Yes, it was.

24 Q. And Mirko Krajisnik whom you mentioned during the

25 cross-examination, does he hail from that village?

Page 25735

1 A. Yes, he does.

2 Q. And during the war years, was he in that area together with his

3 property and his family?

4 A. Yes, he was.

5 Q. Thank you. And do you know if, and if so when, if you know,

6 General Mladic came to this area in 1992?

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the answer of the

8 witness.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. If you know, could you please tell us when this mosque in

11 Ahatovici was built?

12 A. I cannot give you a precise time but it was either in the 1960s

13 or 1970s. I think it was at least ten years before the war.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Stojanovic, your previous -- the answer to

15 your previous question was not recorded. Therefore, I put it to the

16 witness again: Do you know if, and if so when, General Mladic came to

17 this area in 1992?

18 The interpreters didn't catch your answer. Please repeat.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know that he

20 came.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you for your

23 assistance. Your Honours, I'm hereby finished with my redirect of the

24 witness, Mr. Dzino.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.