140925ED

Page 26211

1 declaration.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

4 WITNESS: STOJAN MALCIC

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Malcic.

7 Mr. Malcic, you will first be examined by Mr. Lukic. You find

8 him to your left. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

9 Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Examination by Mr. Lukic:

12 Q. [No interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Malcic.

13 A. Good morning.

14 MR. LUKIC: I would just ask for the help from the usher, and I

15 would like to give clean statement to the witness so he has it in front

16 of him. Would he be so kind and show it to the Prosecution first. Thank

17 you.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Malcic, we need to make certain corrections

19 first in your statement. First of all, for the record, would you please

20 say --

21 MR. LUKIC: I'm getting signals that there is no sound in the

22 court reporter's headphones.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Shall we try again?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Can everyone hear me now who needs to hear me.

25 Yes, it seems to be okay. No one is crying or jumping up.

Page 26212

1 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC:

3 Q. [Interpretation] I will try again in B/C/S to see if everyone is

4 getting interpretation.

5 MR. LUKIC: Still no translation, I can see.

6 [Interpretation] Can we try again?

7 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English booth now?

8 JUDGE ORIE: I could hear the English booth, yes.

9 [The Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I think we need your help, if you could

11 speak a few words in B/C/S, then we can see whether it all works.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So, to test, the system again, are

13 you getting any interpretation?

14 JUDGE ORIE: We do, but the transcriber does not, as far as I can

15 see.

16 The problem apparently is that words spoken in English are

17 understood, but as soon as the English words come from the interpreter

18 booth interpreting what Mr. Lukic says, then it goes wrong.

19 We'll have to -- we'll wait for one or two minutes to see whether

20 it can be quickly resolved. If not, we'll take a short break.

21 [Technical difficulty]

22 JUDGE ORIE: The court reporter still doesn't hear the English

23 booth. I must admit that for me also hearing my own voice through the

24 microphone comes a bit later than usual. We'll take a short break and

25 see whether the matter can be resolved.

Page 26213

1 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

2 We have a technical problem, Mr. Malcic, so we have to fix it

3 first before we can continue.

4 [The witness stands down]

5 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a short break. Everyone is invited to

6 remain standby.

7 --- Recess taken at 9.47 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 9.53 a.m.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

10 Apparently the technical problems have been resolved, Mr. Lukic,

11 so whenever you talk in B/C/S then we'll be able to hear what you say.

12 [The witness takes the stand]

13 JUDGE ORIE: The technical problems have been resolved,

14 Mr. Malcic; therefore, we can continue.

15 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Malcic, would you please state for the

18 record your name, your full name.

19 A. Stojan Malcic.

20 Q. Have you given a statement to the Defence team of Mr. Mladic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. We shall now go through certain corrections that need to be made.

23 There are several typographic errors. Let us look at paragraph 12 -- [In

24 English] 2, sorry. [Interpretation] Paragraph 2.

25 In this paragraph, it is said that you were retired on

Page 26214

1 31st January 1997. Which date is correct?

2 A. On 31st January 1997, I went on sick-leave, and I stopped with

3 active military service on 31st August 1997.

4 Q. Thank you. Therefore, in paragraph 30, the last sentence

5 containing the date is correct because paragraph 30 states that: "This

6 witness was retired on 31st August 1997."

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. Paragraph 17 of your statement.

9 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, I didn't call this on our screens. If we can

10 have 1D01717 on our screens, please. And we need paragraph 17; it's

11 page 6. [Interpretation] Only in the B/C/S version, it says:

12 "Approximately on 30th May 1992, I became a member of the VRS."

13 It's obvious that 1992 is the correct year, not 2992 as it is

14 stated in the Serbian version.

15 Then we need paragraph 1.

16 Q. In paragraph 1, Mr. Malcic, in the English version your year of

17 birth is different. Is the B/C/S version correct that you were born on

18 the 1st of February, 1948?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So the English version that says you were born in 1942 needs to

21 be corrected.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Paragraph 6 is on the next page in

23 both versions. Again, the two versions differ. In the year when this

24 witness was released from prison, the B/C/S version is correct. The year

25 is 1992 and in English, we read 1995. But I will ask the witness.

Page 26215

1 Q. When were you released? On the 13th of May which year?

2 A. I was exchanged on 13 May 1992.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: In the same paragraph, before that 1992, it says:

5 "I was arrested on the 3rd of May, 1992 and released on the 13th

6 May 1992, which is not true."

7 Oh, okay. "My arrest occurred on the 6th." Okay.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us go back to paragraph 17 again.

9 That is the only real correction.

10 Q. One word has been omitted. It says:

11 "As part of this function, I was not a member of the Main Staff

12 of the Army of Republika Srpska but I did attend meetings of the

13 collegium."

14 The wording should be -- but I will ask the witness. Were you a

15 member of the Main Staff?

16 A. I was a member of the Main Staff but I was not a member of the

17 collegium of the Main Staff.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will then read the proper wording

19 of this passage in paragraph 17.

20 "[In English]: The function I performed did not make me a member

21 of the collegium of the Main Staff of the VRS, but I attended their

22 collegiums in cases when the Main Staff decided on the matters concerning

23 the status of professional officers."

24 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the new wording? But the witness said the

25 other thing a minute ago. "I was a member of the Main Staff but I was

Page 26216

1 not a member of the collegium of the Main Staff."

2 Now you say: "The function I performed did not make me a member

3 of the collegium of the Main Staff."

4 Yes. Okay. Fine. Yes. No, I missed it. Apologies for that.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Malcic, let us look at the first page of this statement

7 again.

8 MR. LUKIC: [In English] If we can see the cover page, please, the

9 first page.

10 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Malcic, you have it in hard copy and

11 also on the screen before you. Do you see the signature?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you recognise it?

14 A. This is my signature.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And let us look at the last page.

16 Q. Can you see the signature there?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you recognise it?

19 A. Yes, that is my signature too.

20 Q. After these corrections, do you believe the statement you gave to

21 the Defence team of General Mladic to be correct and truthful?

22 A. This statement is correct and truthful.

23 Q. If I were to ask you the same questions that I and my

24 investigators asked you before, would you give the same answers?

25 A. Yes, I would give exactly the same answers, perhaps in even more

Page 26217

1 detail.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We should now like to tender the

4 statement of Mr. Malcic.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1717 receives number D656, Your

7 Honours.

8 JUDGE ORIE: D656 is admitted into evidence.

9 Please proceed.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 I will now read the short summary of this witness's statement.

12 [In English] Stojan Malcic was active officer serving in garrison

13 Sarajevo from 1971 until the 3rd May of 1992 when he was arrested by the

14 Muslim police in Sarajevo. After his release from prison on 13th of May,

15 1992, he went to the Serb territory. The torture he suffered in prison

16 has left him with permanent health injuries. He was retired on 31st

17 January 1997.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: 31st August.

19 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, exactly. I have the same mistake. Thank you,

20 Your Honour.

21 THE WITNESS: August.

22 MR. LUKIC: He was retired -- the witness intervened as well. He

23 was retired in August 31st, 1997.

24 In May 1992, an order was issued that all JNA units should return

25 to Serbia, except for the officers and soldiers born in B and H. They

Page 26218

1 were ordered to stay in B and H.

2 After the formation of VRS, it continued to apply all rules and

3 laws of JNA. On 30th of May, 1992, the Main Staff VRS assumed the

4 office, followed by the Order from 16th of June, 1992.

5 Malcic's duty, among others, was to deal with the salaries of the

6 active officers, but not with the salaries of the reserve officers and

7 soldiers who were paid by the RS or municipal authorities.

8 Malcic states that the documents concerning the status of the

9 former JNA officers show that their stay in B and H was voluntary and

10 they were given the possibility to choose. The aim of the named order

11 was to protect the officers at the given period. His office did not

12 receive this document.

13 At that time, there was a growing distrust among reserve officers

14 of different ethnicities. Also, the distrust of Serb officers was

15 evident. They were called "commies," and the distrust culminated at the

16 time of the JNA withdrawal into Serbia.

17 The first information about the Srebrenica events in 1995 he

18 received from the media. He will testify that all military operations

19 were carried out in accordance with the rules, and that he never heard

20 that General Mladic ordered killings of civilians or prisoners of war.

21 And this concludes short statement summary. I do not have

22 questions for this witness.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that we can move on. However, one

24 thing, Mr. Lukic, in your summary, you say it, and I also see it in the

25 statement, "I hereby state that all the fights led by the VRS were

Page 26219

1 conducted in accordance to international rules. I hope that you are

2 aware that this the kind of sweeping statements which do not, in any way,

3 assist the Chamber. I hope that you are aware of that. It's just --

4 well, I will not further say anything. Basis of knowledge, it's almost

5 impossible to know so it would need a huge explanation, but I take it

6 that it's just opinion.

7 MR. LUKIC: It is just the opinion since this gentleman was never

8 in the field --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 MR. LUKIC: -- fighting.

11 JUDGE ORIE: So he can state whatever he wants but he has no

12 knowledge, and witnesses are here to tell us about their knowledge.

13 MR. LUKIC: But he was --

14 JUDGE ORIE: -- not about their opinions.

15 MR. LUKIC: But he was in the Main Staff.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But even then, Mr. Lukic, take yourself

17 seriously, this is when I refer to sweeping statements now and then.

18 This is a beautiful example of a totally useless sweeping statement.

19 I'm only talking about this line.

20 Please proceed.

21 Witness, I gave some comments as you may have heard on your

22 statement, especially where it reads that you state that "all the fights

23 led by the VRS were conducted in accordance with international rules,"

24 which is not easy for us to understand how such a broad, thorough,

25 complete knowledge would be with you.

Page 26220

1 You will now be cross-examined by Mr. Jeremy. You'll find him to

2 your right. Mr. Jeremy is counsel for the Prosecution.

3 Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed.

4 MR. JEREMY: Thank you. Good morning, Your Honours.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:

6 Q. And good morning, Mr. Malcic.

7 A. Good morning.

8 Q. Now, Mr. Malcic, as a personnel officer in the Main Staff of the

9 VRS, part of your responsibilities included the filing of performance

10 appraisals of generals in the VRS; yes?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could Mr. Mladic reduce the volume of his voice so

12 that it doesn't disturb the examination of the witness.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. JEREMY:

15 Q. Mr. Malcic, did you get my question or shall I repeat it for you?

16 A. Yes. I think I understood the question.

17 Yes, among other things, it was my responsibility to provide

18 official performance appraisals for military officers, with the exception

19 of generals, in personnel files. That was done for generals by my

20 superior, Petar --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the name.

22 MR. JEREMY:

23 Q. Mr. Malcic, you mentioned your superior, and we got the first

24 name Petar and the interpreters were not able to catch the second name.

25 Could you repeat that, please.

Page 26221

1 A. Petar Skrbic.

2 Q. Okay. So it's correct that you are -- you were familiar with the

3 format of these performance appraisals; yes?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And it's correct that officers were regularly assessed every four

6 years; is that right?

7 A. According to the rule book on appraisals, regular assessments are

8 made every four years and, if necessary, they can be provided more often

9 within one year from the previous official assessment.

10 Q. Okay. I'd like to show you a few of these performance

11 appraisals.

12 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see P2631 in e-court.

13 Q. Mr. Malcic, coming up on the screen before you is the performance

14 appraisal for Radoslav Krstic. Now, if I can focus your attention on the

15 top right side of the -- of this document, we see that the date of the

16 appraisal is the 6th of November, 1995. Do you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. JEREMY: Could we go to the last page, please, in each

19 document.

20 Q. Mr. Malcic, we see on this last page the name of General Krstic

21 on the left side and a signature below it and the name of General Mladic

22 on the right side and his signature below that. Do you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So this is an appraisal for General Krstic that's being carried

25 out by General Mladic; yes?

Page 26222

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. JEREMY: Could we go back to the first page, please.

3 Q. Now, Mr. Malcic, below the date on the top right side of the

4 screen, we see an evaluation period of 6 November 1991 to 6 November

5 1995. Now, is this an example of a regular assessment?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. JEREMY: Could we please go to the second page in each

8 document.

9 Q. Now, Mr. Malcic, I would like to focus your attention on the

10 fifth sentence in this section, in this description and conclusion. It

11 begins with the words: "As the commander of the Drina Corps, he planned,

12 organised, and commanded the ..."

13 MR. JEREMY: And can we go to the next page just in the English,

14 please.

15 Q. " ... operations for the liberation of Srebrenica and Zepa with

16 great success, which he carried out brilliantly, despite the fact the

17 NATO Air Forces were directly protecting the Muslim formations."

18 Going to the last sentence in this paragraph, we read:

19 "According to all the contributions he made in the course of his

20 career, and especially during the war, General Krstic is one of the most

21 successful and most promising generals of the Serbian people."

22 And we see below that that he is graded excellent.

23 Now, Mr. Malcic, in terms of the actual appraisal process, would

24 General Mladic's comments on General Krstic's actions in Srebrenica be

25 based solely on his firsthand experience of what he could see and observe

Page 26223

1 of General Krstic in Srebrenica, or would you expect him to also solicit

2 input from General Krstic's fellow officers who are also present there

3 during those days in July 1995?

4 A. I said a moment ago that I kept records, that is to say,

5 personnel files, of military officers up to the rank of colonel. Above

6 that, these records and files were kept by my superior. The assessment

7 consists of a descriptive part and a numerical part containing grades,

8 that is, the system of grading the military officers of the JNA, which we

9 also used in the Army of Republika Srpska because our own rule book had

10 not been adopted yet.

11 I cannot answer your question because I took no part in the

12 writing of this assessment, and I do not know on what basis

13 General Mladic provided this descriptive assessment.

14 Q. In terms of the format of this particular appraisal, is it in the

15 same format as the appraisals that you did handle from the level of

16 colonel downwards?

17 A. It is the same prescribed format in which official appraisals

18 were written for all military officers and generals in the JNA and that

19 format we took over in the Army of Republika Srpska and applied it.

20 Q. And would you expect the process, the appraisal process, to be

21 the same for generals as it was for colonels downwards, the appraisals

22 that you actually dealt with?

23 A. The answers to the questions contained in this form are exactly

24 the same. It only depends on the superior officer how he will write and

25 how he will fill in the form. Of course, the first page were official

Page 26224

1 personnel details were filled in by my superior for generals, and it was

2 signed off by the personnel officer of the unit in which the officer

3 served.

4 MR. JEREMY: One moment, Your Honours.

5 [Prosecution counsel confer]

6 MR. JEREMY: Okay. I'd like to take to look at another appraisal

7 in the same format as the one that we've just looked at. Could we please

8 see P5023 -- forgive me, P5023.

9 Q. Now, Mr. Malcic, coming up on the screen before you is the

10 appraisal of Dragomir Milosevic. Now, again, looking at the top right of

11 the screen, we see the date of the assessment is the 8th of June, 1992.

12 MR. JEREMY: If we can please go to the last page.

13 Q. And we see that it's been signed by General Mladic and

14 General Milosevic.

15 So, Mr. Malcic, this is an appraisal of Dragomir Milosevic by

16 General Mladic; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. JEREMY: Could we go back one page in the English, please.

19 Q. Again, I'd like to take a look at some of the comments in this

20 descriptive assessment and conclusion.

21 Could we go down the page in the English a little bit, please.

22 Sorry -- so I can see the bottom of the page in the English, please.

23 Q. Mr. Malcic, we read:

24 "He contributed greatly to stabilising the Sarajevo Romanija

25 Corps which has grown under his command into a very effective operational

Page 26225

1 formation and has demonstrated its strength and power by smashing many

2 Muslim offensives towards Sarajevo, particularly in the last Muslim-NATO

3 offensive which ended in the total defeat of the enemy which gave up

4 pursuing their goals as a result of the enormous casualties. He has

5 carried out all tasks skillfully and professionally, with ..."

6 MR. JEREMY: If we can go over the page, please.

7 Q. " ... great self-sacrifice and personal renunciation."

8 And, again, we see that his performance is assessed as excellent.

9 Now, Mr. Malcic, I mentioned that -- and we saw that the date of

10 this assessment is the 8th of June, 1992, yet we see the date at the end

11 is the 30th of October, 1995, and the assessment clearly covers the

12 period when General Milosevic was commander of the Sarajevo Romanija

13 Corps during 1994 and 1995.

14 Now, as a personnel officer in the Main Staff, can you explain

15 why the appraisal is dated 1992 but, in fact, covers a period up to

16 October 1995?

17 A. I am not aware of that because I did not take part in writing

18 this assessment in any way. I did not give my opinion or proposal. I

19 told you how things are written up for generals.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please

21 speak into the microphone. We can barely understand him now.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, witness, could you speak more in the

23 microphone - we'll try to adjust it - because the interpreters have

24 difficulties in hearing you.

25 MR. JEREMY:

Page 26226

1 Q. Okay, Mr. Malcic. I understand that you were not privy to the

2 content of this particular appraisal, or the last one, but I thought you

3 might be able to help me with the actual process but it sounds as though

4 you can't on this particular issue, so I will leave it there.

5 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I think we're at break time.

6 JUDGE ORIE: We are, Mr. Jeremy.

7 I'm just looking exactly at that point that's the cover page

8 where the date range is expressed 8th of June, 1988 to 8th of June 1992.

9 In the translation, I see 20th of July, 1992. I have some difficulties

10 in finding that but perhaps I should zoom out a bit.

11 MR. JEREMY: No, I think you're right, Your Honour. It actually

12 in the translation, it's -- it is 20 July 1992. It's in evidence but it

13 would need a correction. With your leave, I'll arrange for that to be

14 done.

15 JUDGE ORIE: It is a correction to what?

16 MR. JEREMY: To the translation.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Meaning that it now would be again the 8th of June

18 or ...

19 MR. JEREMY: It would be the 8th of June, 1992. So the 20 July

20 reference should removed.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Should be taken out. I don't remember whether we

22 discussed that before. Did we?

23 Whatever is the case, if you are aware that there is a mistake,

24 and if especially the range, the time range for the assessment is

25 relevant, then take care that we have a proper translation. Apparently

Page 26228

1 MR. JEREMY: I take your point, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take a break and we'll resume at five

3 minutes to 11.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

6 [The witness takes the stand]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed.

8 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Q. Mr. Malcic, in your statement, from paragraph 18 onwards, you

10 discuss the departure of non-Serbs from the VRS, and I'd like to show you

11 a document in connection with that.

12 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see P3892.

13 Q. Mr. Malcic, we see that this document on the screen before us is

14 a report from the 1st Krajina Corps. It's dated the 9th of June, 1992.

15 If we look at the bottom of the page, we see that it is signed by

16 Colonel Milutin Vukelic. He was the assistant commander for morale and

17 religious affairs in the 1st Krajina Corps; yes?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, the report is titled: "Report on the Autonomous Region

20 Krajina Crisis Staff decision," and we see that it is sent to the Main

21 Staff and also the SR BH Presidency. You see it has operational

22 confidential number 488-3.

23 Do you see that?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. Now, in the first paragraph we read:

Page 26229

1 "One of the issues that was discussed at yesterday's session of

2 AR Bosnian Krajina Crisis Staff was the personnel -- was the general

3 personnel policy in the Army 1st Krajina Corps."

4 Now, in the next paragraph we read that:

5 "Within units of the 1st Krajina Corps, there are 67 officers of

6 Muslim or Croatian nationality."

7 In the next sentence, we see reference to an ultimatum requesting

8 removal of such persons from vital command posts by the 15th of June,

9 1992.

10 Now, a few sentences on from there, we read:

11 "Such action would also significantly weaken the above-named

12 units from which it has been requested that staff be purged."

13 Mr. Malcic, do you see that?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. Now, a sentence on, we read:

16 "The 1st Krajina Corps command should make the decision as to

17 which staff members from the ranks of Muslims and Croats may still be

18 temporarily kept and at which posts."

19 And lastly we read: "It would also be essential to take a

20 position on what should be done with those who have not demonstrated any

21 hostile activity so far, but who must be removed from key posts."

22 Mr. Malcic, this is a personnel problem that the 1st Krajina

23 Corps are asking the Main Staff to address. Now, were you aware of this

24 purging process that is being contemplated here?

25 A. This is the first time I see this document. It did not pass

Page 26230

1 through my office. It is addressed to the Main Staff here of the Army of

2 the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. However, I know another

3 document that followed as an answer. Now I see that it's an answer to

4 this.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the question was whether you were aware of

6 this process as described here.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

9 MR. JEREMY:

10 Q. Now, Mr. Malcic, you've referred to a document that you are aware

11 of that you say was a response to this particular document, and I'd like

12 to take a look at that.

13 MR. JEREMY: Could we see please see P3893.

14 Q. Now, this is an order from General Mladic to the command of the

15 1st Krajina Corps, and you discuss this document in your statement from

16 paragraph 18 onwards. We see that it is dated the 9th of June, 1992, so

17 the same date as the report that we just looked at, and we see the

18 strictly confidential number 488-3 is a reference to the number in the

19 report that we just looked at.

20 Do you see that, Mr. Malcic?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. Now, we see the teletype signature of General Mladic at the

23 bottom of the page, and after his name we see the abbreviation SR. That

24 means that this order was issued by General Mladic personally; correct?

25 A. Correct.

Page 26231

1 Q. In the text of the document we read:

2 "Officers of Muslim or Croatian nationality must be sent on leave

3 immediately. Take action at once to refer them to the Army of the

4 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in order to resolve their status in the

5 service."

6 Mr. Malcic, faced with the problem of what to do with non-Serbs

7 in the 1st Krajina Corps, General Mladic's immediate response was to send

8 them on leave immediately. This is an example of decisive command being

9 exercised by General Mladic; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, in the top left corner of this document, we read: "For

12 Colonel Rankovic." Now, that's a reference to Colonel Miroslav Rankovic;

13 yes?

14 A. I cannot remember the first name, but I do know Colonel Rankovic

15 personally.

16 Q. And he was the chief of the personnel sector in the 1st Krajina

17 Corps; yes?

18 A. He was chief of the organ --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We can barely hear the

20 witness. Could he please be asked to speak into the microphone again.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you come closer to the microphone, Witness.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Colonel Rankovic was chief of the

23 organ for organisational, mobilisational and personnel affairs in the

24 command of the 1st Krajina Corps.

25 MR. JEREMY:

Page 26232

1 Q. So he dealt with personnel issues; correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, in the top left of this document, we see the strictly

4 confidential number 28/4. Now, that number relates to the personnel

5 department in the Main Staff; yes?

6 A. That I do not know. I don't know whose number that is. I cannot

7 remember. I don't know.

8 Q. Okay. Let's take a look at another document and see if I can

9 refresh your memory about this number.

10 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 31367.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I explain this document?

12 Because I took part in the realisation of this document.

13 MR. JEREMY:

14 Q. Firstly we'll look at a different document, Mr. Malcic.

15 Now, this document is dated the 25th of August, 1992, and we see

16 your name at the bottom of the document.

17 In the top left corner, we see the strictly confidential number

18 28/4. Mr. Malcic, does this refresh your recollection that this number,

19 in fact, related to your personnel department?

20 A. Every year we got special numbers for registering documents in

21 our personnel department. I cannot remember now whether that's the

22 number. Probably it is.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you.

24 MR. JEREMY: Can we go back to P3893, please.

25 Q. While that is being brought back on the screen, Mr. Malcic, and

Page 26233

1 that's the document that the 9 June order that we just looked at, in

2 paragraph 20 of your statement, you say that this order did not pass

3 through your office.

4 Now, you now believe that the 28/4 number might relate, probably

5 did relate, to your personnel department in the Main Staff. You said

6 that Colonel Rankovic dealt with personnel issues in the 1st Krajina

7 Corps, yet do you still say that this document did not pass through your

8 office?

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: In fairness to the witness, Mr. Jeremy, just

10 before you moved over to the other document to refresh his memory about

11 that number, the witness said: "Can I explain this document?" I had

12 something to do with its making, something to that effect. Which I

13 accept would contradict his prior statement that the document didn't pass

14 through but he does seem to recollect that he had something to do with

15 it.

16 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, if I may.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

18 MR. LUKIC: Mr. Malcic told us in regard of P3892 that he -- that

19 one did not go through his office. In regard of P3893, he said that he

20 actually dealt with realisation of that document. So those are two

21 documents.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's what I just said.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy.

24 MR. JEREMY:

25 Q. Mr. Malcic, can I refer your --

Page 26234

1 MR. JEREMY: Can we have on the screen D656, please; that's the

2 statement of the witness. Can we go to page 6, please.

3 Q. Paragraph 18, we see the reference to P3893 and you begin to

4 discuss that in paragraph 18 and paragraph 19.

5 MR. JEREMY: Could we go to the next page, please, paragraph 20.

6 Second sentence.

7 Q. "This document did not pass through my office but I did know

8 about it."

9 So, Mr. Malcic, do I understand your evidence that, in fact, this

10 document did pass through your office after all?

11 A. I said a moment ago that I could explain this document, how it

12 fared, and I wanted things to be as clear as possible. I do not

13 remember --

14 JUDGE ORIE: First, please answer the question. Then, apart from

15 the extensive explanation you've given already about the document in your

16 statement, but first, did it pass through your office; yes or no?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my office, I had a clerk who

18 would log or register all the documents that left my office and that came

19 to my office. At that moment, I was not familiar with this document. At

20 that time, I did not --

21 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking you whether you were familiar with

22 it. It can pass your office even without you knowing it.

23 The question simply is: Did it pass through your office; yes or

24 no?

25 Next question is whether you saw it, whether you were aware of

Page 26235

1 it, whatever may be the case.

2 Did it pass through your office?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember. On the basis of

4 this number, I cannot state exactly that it had passed through my office.

5 Perhaps it was registered in a different way and --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I'm not asking about registration.

7 So you say you do not know whether it passed through your office,

8 meaning that it may have passed through your office or may not have

9 passed through your office, you can't tell us. That's how I understand

10 your answer; yes?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right.

12 JUDGE ORIE: In your statement, you say "This document did not

13 pass through my office." But you knew about it.

14 So, therefore, that is a mistake. Let's leave it to that. You

15 do not know whether it passed through your office.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot understand or

17 hear the witness. Too many microphones are on at the same time.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I'll switch off my microphone. Could you please

19 repeat your answer.

20 Could the microphone be adjusted so as to be better oriented

21 towards the witness.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not remember. I do not know

23 that this document passed through my office. I either was not in office

24 at the time or -- but, anyway, later, a few days later, I came across

25 this document, and I fully familiarised myself with it, and I know how we

Page 26236

1 acted upon it.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then listen now, having now corrected your

3 statement in this respect, listen carefully to the questions Mr. Jeremy

4 will put to you.

5 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

6 Q. Now, Mr. Malcic, you provide an extensive explanation of this

7 document in your statement, and I don't wish to go back into that in

8 great detail. But I would like to focus on something you say in

9 paragraph 19 where you describe it as a great favour and privilege.

10 Now, if you were a Muslim or Croat officer in the 1st Krajina

11 Corps, how is it a great favour and privilege to be discriminated and

12 purged from the 1st Krajina Corps?

13 A. They were not being purged from the 1st Krajina Corps, they did

14 not leave until the end of May with the Army of Yugoslavia -- I mean,

15 into the Army of Yugoslavia in Serbia. They stayed in this army. They

16 were supposed to be established. When we started establishing the Army

17 of Republika Srpska, until then, they were members of the JNA. And now,

18 certain individuals wavered. They wanted to go to Yugoslavia after they

19 heard this information that they heard from the Crisis Staff that they

20 were not desirable in that army. Many active-duty officers, Croats and

21 Muslims, paid no heed to these conclusions of the Crisis Staff. They

22 simply stayed on in their units.

23 Q. Okay. You say they were not being purged from the 1st Krajina

24 Corps, and I'd like to look at a report issued by the 1st Krajina Corps

25 four days after this --

Page 26237

1 A. Do allow me to finish.

2 JUDGE ORIE: No, you've answered the question.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not answer.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Listen to the next question, Witness. At the end of

5 your statement, you may add --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not answer the question. He

7 put a concrete question to me, and I did not answer it.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You were --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question was --

10 JUDGE ORIE: You were asked a question. Your answer is nine

11 lines. We consider that question to have been answered. If there's

12 anything you'd like to add at the end of your testimony, you have an

13 opportunity to do so, but please now focus on the next question that

14 Mr. Jeremy puts to you.

15 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

16 Q. Mr. Malcic, part of your last answer was that they were not being

17 purged from the 1st Krajina Corps. Now, I would like to show you a

18 report from the 1st Krajina Corps four days after General Mladic's order.

19 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see P00217 on our screens.

20 Now, this is a report from the 1st Krajina Corps. If we go to

21 the bottom of the page, the last page, we see that it's signed by

22 General Talic. While we're still on the first page, we see it's

23 addressed to the Main Staff. In fact, it's signed on behalf of

24 General Talic. We see his type-signed signature there.

25 Could we go back to the first page, please.

Page 26238

1 Q. Mr. Malcic, this is a regular combat report. It follows the

2 usual formulation. In the first paragraph, we see comments relating to

3 the enemy. In the second paragraph, comments relating to the state of

4 combat readiness.

5 MR. JEREMY: I'd like to focus on paragraph 6, state of combat

6 morale, and that's on the next page, please. In fact, page 2 in the

7 English and page 5 in the B/C/S. Thank you.

8 Q. In the third sentence of paragraph 6, we read:

9 "The purging of officers on an ethnic basis remains a topic of

10 discussion because of the danger that it may very soon result in

11 deficiencies in the units but it is proceeding in the spirit of the order

12 received."

13 Mr. Malcic, it's very clear here that General Mladic's order was

14 very clearly understood as meaning the purging of Muslim and Croat

15 officers from the 1st Krajina Corps; yes?

16 A. No, that's not the way it was.

17 Q. Mr. Malcic, were you aware that at this time, thousands of Muslim

18 and Croat civilians in Kljuc, Sanski Most and Prijedor and other areas

19 were being removed from their jobs and their homes. Were you aware of

20 that?

21 A. Not then.

22 Q. Similarly, it was time to purge any remaining Muslim and Croat

23 officers in the 1st Krajina Corps; yes?

24 A. If I explain this to you, you will know the truth. And if I do

25 not give you this explanation, you are going to live in this delusion and

Page 26239

1 you will not know what the actual situation was.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, once more, a gesture like thumbs up to a

3 witness and you can follow the proceedings outside this courtroom.

4 Is that clear to you? I'm not -- no, you were making a signal

5 with your hand, which is impermissible, and will next time lead to the

6 removal from this courtroom.

7 No speaking, just listen.

8 Witness, Mr. Jeremy puts to you three documents in a certain

9 context. You have commented in your statement on one of them. Your

10 comment and your description seems not to be in line with the gist of

11 these two -- of the three documents in context.

12 Now, if you say you are going to tell us how it was, the first

13 thing I'd like to hear from you briefly, not a long story, why the

14 1st Krajina Corps sent a message saying what, after having discussed

15 apparently the matter, how to say it briefly, how to get rid of the

16 Muslim and Croat officers. And there's an immediate response: Send

17 Muslim and Croat officers to Yugoslavia. And then, in a follow-up

18 report, some concern is expressed about, at least in time following up,

19 if we get rid of them, we might have a problem, staffing problem, anyhow,

20 and the same language is used as in the first report, which led to the

21 very short order to send them elsewhere.

22 Now, that's simply the issue Mr. Jeremy is raising with you, if I

23 understand you well, Mr. Jeremy.

24 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you, not tell us extensively, but how is it

Page 26240

1 that this picture so clearly seems to arise from these documents and that

2 you say it wasn't as it is -- as it seems to be on paper? If you could

3 briefly explain that, you have an opportunity to do so.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not hear the interpretation

5 of that.

6 MR. LUKIC: We didn't receive interpretation.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Where did it stop, Mr. Lukic? The

8 interpretation.

9 MR. LUKIC: That the whole of your last address was missed.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'll -- I think the best thing to do would be

11 to re-read it.

12 When I sought verification with Mr. Jeremy, that was still

13 interpreted? I said: "Now, that's simply the issue Mr. Jeremy is

14 raising with you."

15 Was that still interpreted?

16 MR. LUKIC: That part was interpreted.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay, then the following part.

18 I then asked you, could you -- and I'm puzzled, "could you tell

19 us, but not extensively, how it is that this picture that so clearly

20 seems to arise from these documents and that you say gives a false

21 picture, what is it that reality was different from what it seemed to be

22 on paper?"

23 If you could briefly explain that, we would appreciate if you

24 would do.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me, four sentences.

Page 26241

1 First sentence: The 1st Krajina Corps asked for the position of

2 General Mladic what to do with active-duty officers who were of Muslim

3 and Croat ethnicity, and some Crisis Staff insist on having that question

4 resolved.

5 Second sentence: General Mladic immediately responded to that

6 document. He said officers of Muslim and Croat ethnicity should be sent

7 on annual leave for 30 days and then measures should be taken that they

8 be sent to the Army of Yugoslavia. Why 30 days? So that these

9 active-duty officers who are ethnic Muslims and Croats should give this

10 serious thought, what they should do further on. When they were asked by

11 the Army of Yugoslavia to stay there, to join them, they stayed in the

12 garrisons of the 1st Krajina Corps. That's where they had apartments,

13 that's where their wives had jobs, and that's where their children went

14 to school.

15 Some of these officers immediately said that they would stay in

16 the Army of Republika Srpska. Another group of people said that they

17 were staying in the Army of Republika Srpska. They consulted their

18 family members, their children, because this is a major turning point in

19 the families' lives. Those who decided to go into the Army of

20 Yugoslavia, because the Army of Yugoslavia was the successor of the JNA,

21 and until then, they had been members of the JNA --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- they would be sent to the Army

24 of Yugoslavia. Those who wanted to do that gave -- got motor vehicles --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I stop you --

Page 26242

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- they loaded their moveable

2 property --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and they went and joined certain

5 garrisons --

6 JUDGE ORIE: -- witness --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- in the Army of Yugoslavia.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness. Witness, I stop you there.

9 Witness, you said four sentences. You've now taken a whole page

10 and you are moving away from what I asked you.

11 The issue is why, on paper, it is presented as how do we get rid

12 of them? And how is it that, on paper, it is not, and that's apparently

13 your explanation, let's give them free choice. Let's give them time to

14 consider all that. That's not what the papers say. The papers give a

15 totally different explanation. And I asked you what explains the huge

16 difference between your interpretation of the situation and the

17 interpretation of the situation as we find them in those documents?

18 If you have an explanation for that, rather than to explain again

19 what your view is, you can give it. If you don't have an explanation for

20 that, Mr. Jeremy will put his next question to you.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood that I am supposed to

23 explain this document written by General Mladic. General Mladic provided

24 his position, his opinion when asked. It's not an order.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Listen, you misunderstood that and you are not

Page 26243

1 invited to further do anything else than I asked you to do. And

2 apparently you have no explanation at this moment, not of the document,

3 but of the contradiction between your version and the version as it

4 appears on paper.

5 Mr. Jeremy, next question, please.

6 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Q. Mr. Malcic, your comments in your statement in relation to this

8 9 June order from General Mladic and the comments that we have heard in

9 the last few answers you provided to this Chamber focus on officers in

10 the 1st Krajina Corps; correct? Muslim and Croat officers.

11 A. If you allow me. That was the only document that was in writing

12 asked by the 1st Krajina Corps and according to this document, we acted

13 in all the other corps and the air force and air defence because there

14 was no unit at that point which did not have any Muslim and Croat

15 officers.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I stop you again. The question is: Was it about

17 officers, just about officers? That means not soldiers, not

18 non-commissioned officers. Was it about officers? Your statement and

19 your explanations.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only the officers of the Yugoslav

21 People's Army that had remained in the units of the VRS together with us

22 Serbs.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Next question, please, Mr. Jeremy.

24 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

25 Q. Mr. Malcic, it is correct, is it not, that at this time, it

Page 26244

1 wasn't simply officers of Muslim and Croat ethnicity who were being

2 removed from their posts in the VRS. In fact, it was all active-service

3 personnel who were being removed from their posts; correct?

4 A. No, that's not correct. Officers of the Yugoslav People's Army

5 who wanted, after the JNA withdrew from Bosnia, to remain in Bosnia

6 remained. The other troops and a large number of Muslim and Croat

7 officers from the JNA deserted from JNA units and joined the new armed

8 forces being created by Croatia and the Muslims.

9 Those who had remained at that time were rare Yugoslav-oriented

10 people who wanted to defend Yugoslavia as much as we did, like we, the

11 other officers of the JNA who remained until the end in the JNA.

12 Q. Mr. Malcic, what I'm asking you is whether at this time -- I'm no

13 longer referring to officers, so the non-officer class but I'm asking

14 whether active military personnel of Croatian and Muslim ethnicity were

15 removed from the VRS at this time during these June, July months?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, I think the question has been answered,

17 to some extent, by the witness where he said they deserted.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were not removed, those who

19 remained until the last day. They remained in the Army of

20 Republika Srpska.

21 MR. JEREMY: Thank you.

22 Could we please see a final document, Exhibit P4971.

23 JUDGE ORIE: By re-reading, I do agree that the witness was then

24 talking about officers again, although you had guided him away from

25 officers. But apparently he disagrees with your position.

Page 26245

1 MR. JEREMY: Now, Your Honours, before I take the witness through

2 this particular document, I am aware of a typographical error. I've sent

3 it for -- we've made a request that it be corrected. And that error is

4 the -- where we see reference to our strictly confidential number 28/4

5 and then it goes on to contain a date. In the original mit's 9 June

6 1992, and in the translation it's 9 July 1992. So we're dealing with

7 that.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I see it.

9 MR. JEREMY:

10 Q. Now, Mr. Malcic, we see that this is a document from the

11 Main Staff of Republika Srpska, strictly confidential number 28/4, and

12 it's dated 9 July 1992. The heading is: "Regulating status in service

13 of active-duty military personnel."

14 We see a reference to our strictly confidential number 28/4,

15 9 June 1992. That's the document -- that's the 9 June order that we

16 looked at earlier.

17 Now, we read in the text of this document -- excuse me, before I

18 read it out, we see it it's type-signed General Mladic.

19 We read in the text of the document:

20 "On returning from annual leave, refer all active-duty military

21 personnel of Muslim or Croatian nationality to the personnel

22 administration of the General Staff of the Army of the Federal Republic

23 of Yugoslavia for the purposes of regulating further their service

24 status."

25 Now, I also draw your attention to the strictly confidential

Page 26246

1 number 28/4. That's the number that we were discussing earlier in

2 respect to the 9 June document, when we were discussing whether or not

3 that passed through your office.

4 MR. JEREMY: Now could we go to the second page in the English,

5 please.

6 JUDGE ORIE: If you are working on the translation anyhow, then

7 also correct the number 23 in the top which, in the original, reads 233.

8 Please proceed.

9 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. Malcic, we see a list of who this order is sent to. And

11 you'll agree with me that that's the entirety of the VRS, correct, in

12 July 1992?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, this order, sent to all active-duty military personnel of

15 Muslim or Croatian nationality, did you consider this and do you consider

16 this particular order to also be a great favour and privilege intended

17 for the protection of these soldiers in the VRS?

18 A. Those who decided after 30 days not to remain in the Army of

19 Republika Srpska, it was not said in the first document where they should

20 be sent. This is an addition to the previous document. It is said that

21 they should go to the General Staff of the JNA, and they -- their status,

22 a new assignment, would be decided based on their training and

23 competencies. It was an advantage compared to the Serbs because --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Not only slow down. But, Mr. Jeremy, put a question

Page 26247

1 to the witness not as you did, ask for the purpose of all this.

2 Witness, listening to your answer, it seems that you're focussing

3 very much on those who -- that had decided not to remain in the army,

4 whereas the document makes no distinction between those who had decided

5 to remain or not to remain. But carefully listen to Mr. Jeremy's next

6 question which will be more -- no, listen to the next question,

7 Mr. Witness, Mr. Malcic.

8 Mr. Jeremy, of course, with the question you put to the witness,

9 you can expect an answer which does not stay within what you would like

10 the witness to tell us.

11 MR. JEREMY:

12 Q. Mr. Malcic, you'll agree with me that this document relates to

13 all Croat and Muslims, the remaining Croats and Muslims, serving in the

14 VRS and it gives them no option to remain in the VRS as of 9 July 1992.

15 You will agree with that.

16 A. You put it very well, active, active military personnel, not

17 reserve personnel. And I was a professional officer who dealt only with

18 active-duty personnel.

19 Those active personnel who decided, after 30 days, to remain --

20 not to remain were directed to go to the General Staff. Those who

21 decided to remain, remained. Which means a large part of these officers

22 remained in the VRS. There was no purge. The rest were directed to go

23 to the Army of Yugoslavia.

24 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I have no further questions on this

25 document or on this cross-examination.

Page 26248

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Jeremy.

2 Have the questions by Mr. Jeremy triggered any need for further

3 questions, Mr. Lukic.

4 MR. LUKIC: Maybe just to finalise the last sentences witness

5 said.

6 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Malcic, you said a large number remain in

8 the Army of Republika Srpska. Is there any record of that in the

9 personnel department, in the archives of the VRS, currently the archives

10 in Kozara?

11 A. I don't know where this archive is, but I know that until the end

12 of the existence of the VRS, a large number of active-duty Muslim and

13 Croat officers remained in the Army of Republika Srpska, and most of them

14 were in the air force and air defence. That was according to the rules

15 of the --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, again, just answer the question. The

17 question was whether, in the archives, currently the archives in Kozara,

18 whether there's any record of that personnel remaining. Is there a

19 record in the archives?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There should be the order governing

21 the continuing service of these persons.

22 JUDGE ORIE: You don't know whether there is, I understand,

23 although you think there should be.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that while I was in active

25 service, I made some of them.

Page 26249

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Perhaps my question was not well put. Is the archive of the

4 Main Staff in Kozara; do you know that?

5 A. I left on 31st August 1997. After that time, I don't know what

6 happened in the Army of Republika Srpska.

7 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, do you want to ask the witness

8 something?

9 JUDGE ORIE: No.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. At one point, I think you said you had spoken to General Mladic

12 about this. Can you tell us briefly what was said in that conversation.

13 A. When this order was sent to units, their professional organs

14 called me up and asked, Why should we send these officers on leave when

15 nobody has the right to go on vacation at this time? So I went to

16 General Mladic and asked him. And he answered, to the best of my

17 recollection, You will agree that it is a huge decision for every family

18 what your future would be, to go to somewhere -- some place unknown or

19 remain here, which is your home, and you did not join the national

20 parties when everybody did and you did not go to the JNA when the JNA was

21 inviting.

22 Some people who were then in the army did not find it convenient

23 because they believed they could -- because some of our officers thought

24 they could create their own Serbian state without us, and that order was

25 made to deal with these extreme people, and I personally liked it. I

Page 26250

1 thought that innocent people should not be harassed, that they should be

2 enabled to decide wherever they think they will be better off.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I think we saw two orders -- or not

4 orders, whatever the witness tells us about it, the one is to send them

5 to Yugoslavia, the other one is that, upon return, they had to report to

6 the -- okay. So in your question it was unclear which order you referred

7 to.

8 Second, could you tell us exactly where the witness said that he

9 had spoken to General Mladic about "this," apart from what "this" exactly

10 was?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say it anywhere in --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness. Witness, I had a conversation with

13 Mr. Lukic, not with you.

14 MR. LUKIC: I was just discussing --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's accepted.

17 MR. LUKIC: I had this conversation with my colleague Stojanovic,

18 and obviously I was confused with my conversation with the witness, and

19 he confirmed, Mr. Stojanovic, that it was not mentioned today on the

20 transcript.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then if there's anything relevant in your

22 conversations with witnesses, put it on paper, bring it to our attention

23 in that way.

24 So the witness may have said that but not in this court and

25 not -- it doesn't appear in his statement.

Page 26251

1 MR. LUKIC: I would just clarify regarding which opinion of

2 Mr. Mladic he was talking about, as you wanted, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: No, if you withdraw the question, I do not have to

4 know about which one it was.

5 You're referring to something the witness has said. You

6 established that he has not said it. Therefore, I'm not insisting on any

7 further clarification at this moment.

8 Put your next question to the witness as you deem fit about this

9 or about any other matter.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. I would still like to ask you, when you discussed this, was it in

12 June or in July? When did you speak to General Mladic?

13 JUDGE ORIE: What is "this"? I earlier said that it's unclear

14 when you talked about the order which one was meant and that, therefore,

15 when you discussed "this" is as unclear as a result.

16 Now, in your question, you again say: "When you discussed this."

17 Discussed what, Mr. Lukic? That should be clear before the witness can

18 answer the question.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: But even before that, you said "discussed with

20 General Mladic," which you have established never took place, never

21 mentioned in this court. And Judge Orie said he doesn't want to hear any

22 further about that one. So the discussion with General Mladic, which

23 this witness has never referred to, doesn't become a topic for discussion

24 at this point because, first, it doesn't even arise from

25 cross-examination.

Page 26252

1 MR. LUKIC: With all due respect, Your Honour, I think it did

2 arise from cross-examination.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: This witness has never said in this court that he

4 discussed with Mr. Mladic. This is introduced by you and the

5 Presiding Judge made a ruling on that.

6 MR. LUKIC: Obviously inartfully raised by me. I could ask the

7 witness: Have you ever talked about the document from --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: But then that is ruled out by the fact that it

9 doesn't arise from cross-examination.

10 MR. LUKIC: But we have -- even the document I wanted to ask

11 whether the witness --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Much depends, Mr. Lukic, whether it's about the

13 document you have introduced through the statement or whether it's about

14 any document. Because the document you introduced in the statement, you

15 can't say that it arises from cross-examination because it finds its

16 origin in this statement you've taken yourself and the document you've

17 referred to yourself.

18 Now, therefore, I insist on what is it about that you want --

19 what is "this"? What is the document? And if that results in any

20 testimony of the witness that he has discussed it with whomever, we'll

21 hear that. But what document are you referring to? The one you

22 introduced in your statement or one of the documents introduced with this

23 witness by Mr. Jeremy?

24 MR. LUKIC: I think not to be on the wrong side, if you can ask

25 the witness which --

Page 26253

1 JUDGE ORIE: No, I can't. I can't. I don't have the basis for

2 putting any such question to the witness.

3 MR. LUKIC: If I may consult with my client just for a half a

4 minute.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may consult your client.

6 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

7 JUDGE ORIE: The voice of Mr. Mladic is by far too loud for

8 consultation purposes.

9 Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Malcic, did you discuss with General Mladic

12 personally and at what time the issue we discussed in the previous

13 session, that is to say, the document on "differentiation" of the Muslims

14 and Croats who are members of the VRS?

15 A. The document sent to Colonel Rankovic personally was written or

16 dictated by Mladic himself. It didn't go through me. That document was

17 not clear to Colonel Rankovic. He called me the next day, on the 10th of

18 June, and asked, Why should these officers be sent on annual leave when

19 nobody else is going? I said I will ask General Mladic the first chance

20 I get. I don't know how many days passed after that, one, two or three,

21 but I eventually met General Mladic and asked him why. And in response

22 to my question, he said what I just described. He said, People need 30

23 days to think seriously, to consult with their families, because it is a

24 huge change in everybody's life. They have the right to go to the Army

25 of Yugoslavia because the Army of Yugoslavia accepts all officers of the

Page 26254

1 JNA who stayed in the JNA until the last day they were in Bosnia. And he

2 didn't send them off to join their national armies. He treated them very

3 humanely. He gave them time to think about it very --

4 JUDGE ORIE: You're going beyond the question. The question

5 was - and you have answered that question - that you discussed the matter

6 with General Mladic after the order apparently was sent to

7 Colonel Rankovic and that an explanation was given to you which is

8 similar to what you told us and which, as we established before, is not

9 in line with the other documents dealing with the same problem and that

10 is of some concern.

11 Next question, Mr. Lukic.

12 MR. LUKIC: We do not have any more questions for this witness.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Lukic, if the witness would have discussed

14 this conversation with Mr. Mladic in any of the conversations with you,

15 it's totally not understandable why you have not raised the matter in

16 your examination. And, second, why you have not sent any proofing note

17 which relates to that. It comes as a surprise in the third --

18 MR. LUKIC: I can explain that.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, not at this moment, and I just make this

20 observation.

21 MR. LUKIC: Because he didn't -- he never told it to me while I

22 was preparing him.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whatever the defence, whether it's you or

24 whether it's Defence, I leave that open.

25 You took the statement at the time. I think you were the one.

Page 26255

1 So then that also comes perhaps as a bit of a surprise that it is not in

2 there. But if it call came at the last moment, told to anyone else, then

3 still the question remains why you did not raise it in the

4 examination-in-chief which -- because it seems to be pretty relevant for

5 the matters discussed with this witness.

6 I leave it to that. Have the questions in re-examination

7 triggered any need?

8 MR. JEREMY: No, Your Honours, but I would like to emphasise that

9 as issues like this arise, then it's vitally important to the Prosecution

10 that we become aware of them at the earliest opportunity.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I think that it's one of the few times that no

12 additional questions were put to the witness, apart from summarising the

13 statement, and it now turns out that it was one of the -- certainly one

14 of the circumstances in which it would have been helpful to immediately

15 be aware of that.

16 No further questions.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just wanted to say something to Mr. Lukic.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic --

20 MR. LUKIC: I apologise, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: No problem. I just wanted to say, Mr. Lukic, if

22 in re-examination, you remember something that you didn't raise in

23 in-chief, the proper procedure is just to request the Court if you may

24 raise it and offer the Prosecution the opportunity to re-cross-examine on

25 that new issue. That's the proper procedure. Rather than just push it

Page 26256

1 in and say I can explain. This would give the explanation.

2 MR. LUKIC: By mistake.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you request that you raise the issue.

4 MR. LUKIC: By mistake, I apologise.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, sir.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Then there are no further questions for the witness.

7 Mr. Malcic, this concludes your testimony in this court. I'd

8 like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague -- yes, I

9 offered you an opportunity to add at the end anything you wanted to add

10 and that opportunity is given now. But, please, it should relate to any

11 of the questions that were put to you. Is that clear? And it should be

12 short.

13 You have an opportunity to add whatever you deem necessary to

14 add.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I never appeared

16 before any court ever, except here in The Hague. This is the second

17 time.

18 I said something before this Court after the question put by the

19 Prosecutor and then it reminded me of some of these things in relation to

20 this document. Nobody had asked me about it before. And that's why I

21 thought I should say this, because I thought this was the right place

22 where I should say things that I happened to remember and that I should

23 say it under oath.

24 I do apologise, once again, if I did anything that was

25 inappropriate.

Page 26262

1 him to your left. Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of

2 Mr. Mladic.

3 Mr. Ivetic.

4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

6 Q. Good day, Colonel.

7 A. Good day.

8 MR. IVETIC: I would like to have 65 ter number 1D04015 in

9 e-court.

10 Q. Sir, if you could look on your monitor, do you remember giving

11 this written statement to the Karadzic Defence team in 2012?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. IVETIC: If we could please turn to the last page in both

14 versions.

15 Q. Directing your attention to the last page in the Serbian

16 original, can you please tell us whose signature appears at the end of

17 the statement.

18 A. My signature is at the end of this statement.

19 Q. And, sir, subsequent to signing this statement in 2012, did you

20 have occasion to review the same in the Serbian language so as to

21 ascertain if everything was correctly recorded therein?

22 A. Yes, I had that opportunity. I read it and everything was

23 written the way I had stated it.

24 Q. Now, sir, if I were to ask you questions today about the very

25 same topics as contained in your statement, would your answers be the

Page 26263

1 same as recorded in your statement?

2 A. Yes. My answers would be the same as those contained in the

3 statement, but perhaps the word order wouldn't be exactly the same.

4 Q. And, sir, since you have taken the solemn declaration to tell the

5 truth, would that mean that the testimony as contained in your written

6 statement is truthful in nature?

7 A. Yes. To the best of my knowledge, everything I said in this

8 statement is true.

9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, at this time I tender 65 ter number

10 1D04015 as the next Defence Exhibit. We do not tender the three

11 associated exhibits that are mentioned in the statement.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D4015 receives number D658, Your

14 Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: D658 is admitted.

16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

17 At this time, I have a written -- I have a summary of the written

18 statement that I'd like to read.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

20 MR. IVETIC: Colonel Lucic is a retired career army officer. In

21 May 1992, he received orders to report to the Sarajevo Corps, then still

22 called the JNA 4th Corp., and was assigned to the 216th Mountain Brigade

23 under the command of Colonel Dragomir Milosevic. He was ordered to take

24 over command of an infantry battalion.

25 The witness was the commander of the 2nd Battalion from 18 May

Page 26264

1 1992 to the end of January 1993, at which time he moved to the command of

2 the 1st Romanija Brigade. Upon taking command of the battalion, he

3 immediately noted that the lines were not covered with enough men, that

4 the defence was not linked, and that establishment weapons were lacking.

5 On 22 May 1992, the 1st Romanija Brigade was formed. The

6 strategy and objectives of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps in relation to

7 Sarajevo was to prevent the penetration of the BH army into Serb

8 territory. The Sarajevo Romanija Corps mainly conducted defensive

9 operations due to the lack of manpower, while the BH army units were

10 almost always on the offensive.

11 He and his unit were aware of the international conventions that

12 protect the civilian population in war, so they opened fire in

13 self-defence, and only against military targets.

14 He recalls that the VRS Main Staff and the Serb civilian

15 authorities extended offers for Sarajevo to be completely demilitarised,

16 with all heavy weapons to be placed under UN control.

17 The Serb side also took a liberal stance with regard to freedom

18 of movement of civilians both toward and from Sarajevo.

19 And that completes the summary of the witness's written

20 statement.

21 JUDGE ORIE: If you have any further questions for the witness,

22 you may put them, Mr. Ivetic.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do that, Mr. Ivetic, can I just -- at

24 line -- page 52, line 11, 10 to 11, you're saying that -- the witness was

25 moved in January 1993 to the command of the 1st Romanija Brigade. Then

Page 26265

1 you followed that by saying "upon taking command of the battalion..."

2 Do you mean to say the brigade or the battalion?

3 MR. IVETIC: The battalion, sir.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Is that referring to the previous paragraph

5 when he became commander of the battalion?

6 MR. IVETIC: It refers to this paragraph where it talks about the

7 time-period when he was commander of the 2nd Battalion.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

9 MR. IVETIC:

10 Q. Colonel, I would have some additional questions for you.

11 First of all, I would like to ask you if your battalion had any

12 mortars?

13 A. Yes, the battalion had mortars. At first, it was less, and

14 later, more were added. However, the level never reached that that had

15 been envisaged by establishment.

16 Q. Could you tell us what calibre mortars you had and how many.

17 A. In the battalion, there were 60-millimetre mortars and

18 82-millimetre mortars. 60-millimetre mortars were within companies,

19 whereas 82-millimetre mortars were a separate unit, and it was called the

20 independent platoon of 82-millimetre mortars. It was within the

21 battalion.

22 Q. Did you have enough personnel to man --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, the second part of the question was not

24 answered; that is, how many. The witness explained to us where they were

25 within the battalion but ...

Page 26266

1 Could you tell us how many all together 60-millimetre mortars

2 there were in the companies and how many 82-millimetre mortars there were

3 in that separate unit, and at what point in time? Because I do

4 understand that initially you had less and later you had more.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer now?

6 When I assumed my duty, as far as I can remember, there were two

7 60-millimetre mortars in two companies respectively. And in the

8 battalion, in the independent platoon, there weren't any 82-millimetre

9 mortars because that platoon was still in the process of being

10 established. There was a platoon commander, a deputy commander, and a

11 few soldiers, as far as I can remember, because their command had issued

12 the following order during mobilisation that that platoon should be

13 manned only by reservists, that is to say, military conscripts.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I was not asking about who were in those

15 platoons. I was just asking about the number of mortars. I do

16 understand that when you assumed duty, there were 60-millimetre mortars,

17 two mortars in each of the two platoons.

18 The 82-millimetre mortars, could you tell us when they then

19 arrived in the separate unit?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 82-millimetre mortars, they

21 arrived -- well, I cannot say exactly what the date was, but it was

22 during the month of May or the first half of June, there were two

23 82-millimetre mortars. Otherwise, according to establishment, there

24 should be six mortars.

25 JUDGE ORIE: When you talk about June, is that June 1992?

Page 26267

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, 1992.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Did the number of mortars increase since then or

3 decrease, either the 60-millimetre or the 82-millimetre batteries?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both numbers increased. In that

5 area, in addition to this nucleus that I took command of, after

6 mobilisation, companies were established, and then one company got two

7 mortars of 60-millimetres, whereas the 82-millimetre platoon was later on

8 replenished with another two, and then, at some point in time, in

9 September, another two. So that was six all together. And during the

10 month of October, the platoon was relocated to the village of Podgrab or,

11 rather, Nikolici. The slopes on the south-east of Jahorina. So that is

12 the opposite side of Sarajevo.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you told us that, in total, there was six

14 82-millimetre mortars at the end of 1992. What was the total number of

15 the 60-millimetre mortars at that point in time or at its highest?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at that time, there were

17 already six 60-millimetre mortars, two respectively in all the companies.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

20 Q. Colonel, could you tell us about how these mortars were planned

21 to be used by your battalion?

22 A. The mortars were within the combat disposition of the company as

23 one element of that disposition, and they were planned to be used within

24 the assignment given to the unit, and that assignment was to defend that

25 stretch of the front line and that area as well as the population that

Page 26268

1 lived behind the lines near defence positions.

2 Q. And could you also tell us how it is that they were used to

3 defend the lines? What kind of fire missions did they undertake?

4 A. Mortars did not have any firing mission. They were there and

5 they had to be ready to be used, if necessary.

6 Q. And when would they be necessary to be used, under what

7 circumstances?

8 A. Generally speaking, the use of weapons was gradual, depending on

9 the disposition, that is to say, in case of attack on the line or part of

10 the line, those who were forward would fire first, and then if that was

11 not sufficient, then the commander would use the 60-millimetre mortar

12 with a proviso that the direction and the range of those mortars was

13 strictly regulated. It's what we called the forward-most line of

14 defence, that is, the firing line that is behind cover, and the order

15 given to the commanders is to use mortars only when there is no other way

16 just in front of the defence line or if a trench line had been reached by

17 the enemy, then to use mortars to defend the trench.

18 Q. Now, sir, could you please explain for us, you said, "in front of

19 the defence line or if a trench line has been reached by the enemy then

20 to use the mortars to defend the trench."

21 In the case of mortars being used in either of those instances,

22 what area would be targeted by those mortars?

23 A. The line of defence in that specific area where I received my

24 battalion leaned on the Miljacka river, from Vrbanja to the next bridge

25 on the Miljacka, and then towards the stadium. And, on the other side,

Page 26269

1 it was from the intersection near the Vrbanja bridge towards the Spomen

2 park. So in front of the defence line, there was a belt of 60 up to 100

3 metres that was clear. That was the river and sometime the promenade.

4 It was a clear area, and they could use the weapons in this belt if they

5 were unable to prevent an attack by the enemy differently.

6 Q. And where were the enemy forces situated in relation to this

7 clear belt of 60 to 100 metres that you have identified?

8 A. The assaulting forces were directly opposite on the other side of

9 the Miljacka river. In the beginning, they were just behind the Vrbanja

10 bridge behind a wall or they were also using some buildings there, but

11 they also covered a part of the promenade that was looking from the

12 infantry line.

13 On the flanks we were separated from the enemy only by one street

14 that ended at the stadium. On the other side near the Vrbanja bridge,

15 there was a large intersection, and on the side towards Spomen park, they

16 were very close, behind a building, sometimes at a distance of only 30

17 metres. I did not tour every single trench but that was roughly the

18 disposition of defending and attacking forces.

19 Q. Now, sir, did the mortars in your battalion ever get repositioned

20 so as to shoot into the interior of Sarajevo beyond this belt that you

21 have identified?

22 A. While I was commander, the mortars did not change position and

23 never fired behind the lines, never find into the depth behind this line.

24 Q. Now I'd like to take a look at your statement which we have on

25 the screen, and I'd like to look at paragraph 5 at the bottom of both

Page 26270

1 versions. Here you say that there were not enough men to cover the line.

2 Could you explain for us what types of things you did in order to

3 be able to cover the line with insufficient manpower.

4 A. The general situation in my battalion and in the brigade was a

5 shortage of personnel. We built trenches, not all of which were

6 occupied, and we often had to take part of the personnel from units and

7 during the night take them to those positions where an attack was

8 expected, and we deployed these men behind a cover to pre-empt an attack

9 on the defence line.

10 We did not have a line defence because, for us, it was a

11 resisting type of defence. We did not plan withdrawal, so our defence

12 was deployed in depth and along the entire line, I had men and assets

13 deployed.

14 Q. Were you able to cover the entire defence line?

15 A. No, we were not. We changed cover from time to time, and since

16 my battalion was practically semi-encircled and behind the lines, I was

17 surrounded by firing positions across Vrace, that's an area they

18 controlled by snipers, it's an area where you would move only by night

19 and under cover. So I was encircled, in firing terms, and I was in a

20 semi-circle as far as the enemy forces are concerned.

21 These attacks came not only from the front but from the flank,

22 and I would sometimes have to take men away from the first line and take

23 them to the flanks towards Mojmilo hill, the Ozrenska Street to link them

24 up with a neighbouring unit, or take them perhaps to the area overlooking

25 Spomen park called Zlatiste where we often had to intervene with

Page 26271

1 infantry.

2 So all the forces that I had at my disposal were engaged to the

3 maximum.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could I please seek clarification of one

5 of the previous answers and perhaps of the question as well.

6 You were asked, Witness, whether the mortars in your battalion

7 ever got repositioned so as to shoot into the interior of Sarajevo beyond

8 this belt that you have identified. And then your answer was that they

9 did not change position and that they never fired behind the lines.

10 My question is, if you would, hypothetically, want to fire beyond

11 this belt, would there be a need to reposition them? Or could, from

12 their positions, could be fired into the interior of Sarajevo? Not to

13 say that it happened, but I'm just asking you whether from the positions,

14 as unchanged, whether it was possible or impossible to fire into the

15 interior of Sarajevo.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the positions where the

17 mortars were, it was possible to fire into the depth in the interior, and

18 I see that you frequently use here the term "at the city."

19 To us professionals, those were just forces of the 1st Corps that

20 attacked us. We fired only at them. But, tactically speaking, they were

21 able to fire into the depth.

22 JUDGE ORIE: The very last line of your answer puzzles me again.

23 You say "tactically speaking, they were able to fire into the depth."

24 My question about -- was about your ability, and I do understand

25 that you were able to hit targets, as you explained, forces of the

Page 26272

1 1st Corps, if they were situated in the city, that at least your mortars

2 were able to engage such targets beyond the lines within the city. And

3 I'm not suggesting that they did, but I'm just trying to understand both

4 the question and your answer.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Distinguished Mr. President, I'm

6 not quite clear as to what you imply by my ability to fire at the city.

7 JUDGE ORIE: You said we fired only at this -- this belt and not

8 beyond that. My question is whether your mortars could have fired beyond

9 that.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies in advance. I have to

11 be more precise. I didn't say that we fired. I said that the mortars

12 were planned for use in that area in case infantry weapons were not

13 sufficient to stop an attack.

14 A mortar from that position had the technical and the tactical

15 possibility to fire several kilometres into the depth, but it never

16 happened because it was not within our assignment.

17 JUDGE ORIE: So there was no need to reposition there if you

18 would have wished - and I'm not suggesting that wish existed - if you

19 would have wished to fire into military targets within the city.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, there was no need.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

22 MR. IVETIC:

23 Q. How often and in what manner would the enemy forces attack the

24 defence line that your battalion was defending?

25 A. You could classify these attacks as classical or partial. They

Page 26273

1 were daily and sometimes nightly. But if you narrow this definition only

2 to the use of their mortars along the entire line and assault groups from

3 flanks and from the front, such attacks were very frequent, especially in

4 the period of end May, the month of June, and the month of July 1992.

5 I'm talking about the period when I was the commander of that unit until

6 January 1993.

7 Q. And how would the enemy forces move toward the line, toward the

8 defence line?

9 A. They built fortifications and, whenever possible, they dug

10 trenches and built covers. During the night, they approached and combat

11 groups approached frequently, destroyed a certain cover and advanced

12 their own line. That was accompanied by a mortar attack against the rest

13 of the defence units or by sniper fire or other infantry weapon fire.

14 Q. Colonel, could you tell us what were your orders that you

15 received in respect to your interactions with UNPROFOR?

16 A. The first orders regarding UNPROFOR we began to receive in the

17 month of June notifying us of the upcoming arrival of UNPROFOR units,

18 informing us that they would probably have control of the airport, but

19 the main point was that we had to convey this order down to every single

20 soldier. That UNPROFOR was able to move wherever they wanted, to cross

21 any bridge they wanted, and that we must not interfere with their

22 mission, and we must prevent any individual or group trying to interfere

23 with them. That was an order that every soldier had to be familiarised

24 with, and the brigade commander said that he would personally check that

25 it is done when he toured the positions near the defence lines.

Page 26274

1 Q. Could you please tell us, sir, what were the orders given to your

2 unit by your superiors in relation to the passage of humanitarian aid

3 convoys?

4 A. I don't remember that any humanitarian convoys passed across

5 Grbavica. But the order was that we must not interfere with it, that

6 they, as a humanitarian organisation, were doing their job, and we were

7 not supposed to intervene or hinder them in any way.

8 And, second, since these units were being reinforced by

9 conscripts that had escaped from Sarajevo, they were very motivated to

10 see that humanitarian aid actually reached the city. And through those

11 humanitarian organisations, they personally sent some assistance to their

12 relatives and families that remained in Sarajevo. And one of my company

13 commanders asked for permission to send a package occasionally through

14 those humanitarian organisations, a package containing food or clothing,

15 et cetera.

16 Q. Now I'd like to ask about the meetings which you attended at the

17 command of the brigade. What kinds of instructions were given in

18 relation to the treatment of civilians?

19 A. I didn't hear the first part of your question. Did you say

20 something about the brigade or the command?

21 Q. Yes, sir. At the time that you moved from the level of battalion

22 commander to the role you had in the brigade command, and when you

23 attended collegium -- pardon me, meetings at the command of the brigade,

24 what kind of instructions were given by the brigade as to the treatment

25 of civilians?

Page 26275

1 A. You are narrowing down my answer. It's not only that we got

2 orders from the brigade command. The way the army treated the civilians

3 is well known. You know where the core of our unit was; it was the 216th

4 Mountain Brigade. It was made up of people who had done their military

5 service, who had been members of the Territorial Defence or the civilian

6 protection, and some reserve police units. All of them had been

7 mobilised. And from the very beginning, it was quite clear what the

8 mission of the army was: To defend the area and to defend the

9 population. And it was constantly stressed throughout their training.

10 Nobody, except authorised police officers, had any powers over civilians,

11 no right to search their apartments, to search them, to harass them,

12 et cetera.

13 If there was a need to intervene, sometimes, in cases where there

14 was a problem, the commanders were supposed to inform the competent

15 organs, that is to say, the military and civilian police, and leave it to

16 them.

17 Q. What kind of instructions were given as to the disciplining of

18 soldiers?

19 A. Just to add one thing about civilians. It was clear, since this

20 was a populated area, it was emphatically prohibited to stop civilians,

21 to enter apartments, to appropriate property, or commit any other

22 criminal act. When soldiers needed to be disciplined, there were

23 measures prescribed by the law. For minor infractions, disciplinary

24 measures applied, and for more or less serious crimes, the competent

25 authorities were notified and criminal complaints were filed.

Page 26276

1 I remember since we had a detailed briefing where all the members

2 of the commands, that is to say, assistant commanders, made reports about

3 the previous period, the assistant commander for security reported that

4 he had for the previous period already filed 17 criminal reports. I

5 don't know to what they referred because in my unit, nothing like that

6 had happened.

7 Q. My final question, and perhaps you've already answered it with

8 your last line. Did you your battalion have any such incidents requiring

9 criminal or disciplinary proceedings against its member soldiers?

10 A. Yes, yes, it had. The first problem was going AWOL.

11 Individually or as a group, soldiers would sometimes leave and go without

12 permission to their homes. They would be taken into custody by the

13 military police and commanders would in such cases pronounce disciplinary

14 measures.

15 At one briefing, one of the commanders reported disciplinary

16 problems with one soldier, and I said, Bring him to me. And since this

17 soldier constantly displayed disobedient behaviour, questioned the

18 commander and undermined him in other ways, I pronounced the measure of

19 two days in detention because that was within my powers.

20 Another case happened in June. Upon returning from leave, a

21 platoon commander did not take his platoon to the positions according to

22 regulations causing strong infantry and mortar fire, resulting in one

23 death and seven wounded. Since the platoon was already small and it had

24 lost one-third of the men, that commander had to be dismissed. His rank

25 was stripped, and he was integrated into the neighbouring platoon as a

Page 26277

1 private.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I'm -- you used until now a little bit

3 over half an hour. How much time would you still need?

4 MR. IVETIC: I prefaced this as my last question so once the

5 witness is finished, then I'm complete with my direct.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Then please put that question to the witness.

7 MR. IVETIC: I did, and he was in the middle of answering it.

8 JUDGE ORIE: He was in the middle of answering it.

9 Yes, Witness, you explained a lot about disciplinary action taken

10 against those who apparently had disturbed the internal order and

11 internal functioning of the forces.

12 If that is what you wanted to ask him, then --

13 MR. IVETIC: Perhaps if I could just follow-up --

14 JUDGE ORIE: He's giving examples, and I don't know for how long

15 he would continue to do that.

16 So if you have any further question or any focused question on

17 the matter, please put it to the witness.

18 MR. IVETIC:

19 Q. Sir, let me ask you: In your battalion, were there any criminal

20 proceedings that were required against any of the soldiers for criminal

21 behaviour?

22 A. Apart from the few cases that I just described that were dealt

23 with along the chain of command, there were certain cases that involved

24 crimes and criminal liability had to be dealt with. The army filed

25 criminal complaints -- reported such cases to the competent authorities

Page 26278

1 and criminal complaints were filed. Such cases were rare. One of them

2 happened in August in a company whose positions faced Vrbanja bridge. I

3 don't know exactly how the investigating authorities dealt with it. I'm

4 just describing how I learned about it by the company -- from the company

5 commander through his reports.

6 A soldier tried to stop a civilian who was entering a building.

7 The man continued to move. The soldier caught up with him and asked to

8 see an ID. And the man hit the soldier whereupon the soldier opened

9 fire.

10 Another soldier who tried to stop his colleague got fired at too.

11 I know that there was a trial. The man was convicted, but I don't know

12 any other details.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. Apart from firing at the civilian and another person, one of whom

15 survived, the other didn't, the soldier committed a violation, first of

16 all, when he insisted that the civilian show his ID. He should have

17 reported it to the authorities. The building the civilian was trying to

18 enter was just behind our positions.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, before we go into further details of this

20 event, do you remember what the ethnicity of the person was who slapped

21 the soldier in the face and was then shot at?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure, but I think it's a

23 Bosniak or Muslim. And the other one was either a Serb or a Croat. I

24 don't know, the other civilian.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And do you have any name of the victim or

Page 26279

1 victims?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, whatever I say is to be the

3 truth, as I said, but I cannot say anything now with 100 per cent

4 certainty. I think that the name was Ilija, but this is really with a

5 reservation that that is what I seem to remember now.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Ilija as a first name?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, first name. But really, with

8 the reservation because I'm not sure.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.

10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have no further questions.

11 Q. Colonel, thank you for answering my questions today for the

12 Defence of General Mladic.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that we take the break first.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And that you'll start your cross-examination after

16 that.

17 Ms. MacGregor.

18 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you for your patience, Mr. President.

19 The topic that was just discussed was a bit outside the scope of

20 the statement and the summary. If it's possible to just ask one question

21 of the witness before the break and that would give us an opportunity to

22 develop cross-examination on that topic.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I think that would be fair.

24 No objections, Mr. Ivetic?

25 MR. IVETIC: No objections.

Page 26280

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor, who is counsel for the Prosecution,

2 will put one question to you. Then we'll take a break, and after that,

3 she'll continue her cross-examination.

4 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Cross-examination by Ms. MacGregor:

6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Lucic. I wonder if you remember the name not

7 of the victim of the incident you just spoke about but of the soldier

8 that you alleged was prosecuted.

9 A. Good afternoon, Madam Prosecutor. I remember the last name of

10 the soldier, I do not remember his first name. His last name was

11 Pejanovic.

12 Q. And to clarify, Mr. Ivetic had asked you about your battalion

13 specifically. Was this a soldier in your battalion, the 2nd Mountain

14 Infantry Battalion?

15 A. Yes, he was in a company or, rather, a squad within a platoon

16 within a company within my battalion.

17 Q. And my final clarification. You spoke about August. Are you

18 referring to August 1992?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you. No further questions at this moment.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll first take a break.

22 Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes from now. You

23 may follow the usher.

24 [The witness stands down]

25 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at a quarter to 2.00.

Page 26281

1 --- Recess taken at 1.26 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 1.49 p.m.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor.

4 MS. MacGREGOR: Mr. President, while we wait for the witness, if

5 I can ask for Exhibit P4621 to be brought to the screen.

6 [The witness takes the stand]

7 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Ms. MacGregor.

8 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Q. Mr. Lucic, in your statement, and today during your testimony,

10 you made several claims about the 1st Corps of the ABiH having greater

11 numerical strength than VRS units.

12 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, I refer you to paragraphs 7, 8

13 and 16 of witness's statement.

14 Q. Are you able to see the document on the screen in front of you,

15 Mr. Lucic?

16 A. Yes. I see the document, yes.

17 Q. This is a 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade command reply to the SRK

18 command dated 16 September 1992.

19 MS. MacGREGOR: If we can please have page 2 in both versions of

20 the document.

21 Q. I'm going to refer you to an item under number 3 of the document.

22 On the B/C/S, it is the first bullet on the page that is now on your

23 screen. In the English, it will be the last bullet on page 2.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now we have both in English on the screen.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And now for the English, I think we still need the

Page 26282

1 next page.

2 MS. MacGREGOR: In English, it's page 2 focussing on the bottom

3 of the page, please. Thank you.

4 Q. While that's coming up, I will tell you what this document states

5 is that:

6 "Manpower levels of the brigade command consisted of 80 per cent

7 senior officers already at the beginning and subsequently reached 90

8 per cent, whereas manpower levels of the battalion commands are 100 per

9 cent, including all key command positions."

10 Mr. Lucic, according to this report, the battalion commands under

11 the brigade command, including your battalion, were at full manpower

12 levels as of September 1992; is that correct?

13 JUDGE ORIE: I think Ms. MacGregor asked for page 2 and not for

14 page 3. Now we are at page 2. Lower part.

15 Yes, could you answer the question, Witness.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can answer. What is

17 written is correct. The battalion command was manned and that was just

18 the command.

19 If you allow me, I can tell you who makes up the command, that is

20 the commander, his deputy commander, then the assistant commander for

21 security affairs, and then the assistant commander for logistics, and

22 then the desk officer for atomic and biological warfare, and then the

23 signals people who are not part of the command. That would be it. So

24 this is not a reference to units but to the command.

25 MS. MacGREGOR:

Page 26283

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MS. MacGREGOR: If we can move on. I'm going to be looking now

3 at -- I think it's page 1 in each document.

4 Q. Mr. Witness, if you can wait, I haven't yet asked a question.

5 A. I wanted to answer the question that you've already put.

6 JUDGE ORIE: The question that was put to you has been answered

7 and the new question is still to be expected. Wait for a second.

8 Ms. MacGregor.

9 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you. We're now looking at the first page

10 of this document, focussing on paragraphs 1 in both versions.

11 Q. Mr. Lucic, in your statement at paragraph 10, you state:

12 "The SRK mainly conducted defensive operations due to a shortage

13 of manpower."

14 Now, if we look at the first paragraph on the document in front

15 of us, it reads:

16 "The brigade command is 'consistently carrying out the

17 instructions on the persistent safeguarding of the lines reached to date

18 and the bringing about of the conditions for offensives' ..."

19 Mr. Lucic, is it correct that as of September 1992, the brigade

20 command was planning to conduct offensive operations?

21 A. In September, I was in the command of the battalion; I was the

22 commander. But the brigade and corps had defence establishment. This is

23 a reference to the creation of conditions for offensive activities which

24 is a general tactic and strategy of the Army of Republika Srpska to

25 always defend themselves successfully and possibly carry out offensives,

Page 26284

1 if so planned somewhere.

2 And over here, it is a reference to units that should exist for

3 carrying that out, if necessary. It says here that we are firmly holding

4 our positions with these forces but the conditions are being created.

5 Conditions are being created. That means --

6 Q. We only sit in court today until 2.15 and I am doing my best to

7 use that time efficiently. If you can please just answer the question

8 that's put to you.

9 MS. MacGREGOR: I no longer need the document on the screen.

10 Q. Mr. Lucic, during your testimony in the Karadzic trial, you were

11 asked a question by the Prosecutor and you were asked about the brigade.

12 You testified that in your brigade:

13 "Ammunition was used strictly in a professional manner."

14 And the transcript reference for that is Karadzic, page 30797.

15 Do you stand by that testimony today?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Additionally in your statement, Exhibit D658, in paragraph 24 you

18 state that there was no misuse of ammunition, at least not in your unit.

19 Now, by "unit," are you referring to the brigade or are you

20 referring to the 2nd Mountain Infantry Battalion?

21 A. Well, battalion, first of all, and then in 1993 when I was

22 transferred to the brigade.

23 Q. So this statement refers to your knowledge about both your

24 battalion and the brigade in general as you continued to be part of the

25 brigade command through the end of the war.

Page 26285

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In paragraph 11 of your statement, you refer to how members of

3 your unit, under your command, opened fire in self-defence and only

4 against military targets.

5 Can you again clarify what you mean by your unit under your

6 command?

7 A. The battalion that I commanded, because in the brigade, I was a

8 professional organ and the brigade was commanded by the commander.

9 MS. MacGREGOR: Can I please have Exhibit P4440. We'll be on

10 page 1 in the English, page 3 in the B/C/S.

11 Q. While we wait for the document to come up, Mr. Lucic, this is a

12 warning dated 19 July 1995 from the SRK corps command to several

13 brigades, including the 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade.

14 Now, I want to focus on the second paragraph of this document.

15 The first sentence of that second paragraph relates to problems with

16 ammunition production. despite these problems, SRK forces continued to

17 "spend ammunition as if we had it in abundance."

18 The second sentence of this paragraph states:

19 "That is why we very often fire at inhabited settlements and

20 specific buildings where there are no combat actions whatsoever."

21 Moving to the next paragraph:

22 "It is inexplicable that some brigades spend much less ammunition

23 in repelling three or more fierce attacks during the day than others that

24 fire at inhabited settlements when there are no combat actions."

25 Now at the time that this warning was issued by the SRK corps

Page 26286

1 command, you were no longer assigned to the 2nd Mountain Infantry

2 Battalion; is that correct?

3 A. I don't see the date here when this order was issued. I cannot

4 see the date.

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the end of the

6 witness's statement.

7 MS. MacGREGOR: If we can have page 1 of the B/C/S version.

8 And to explain to Your Honours and to Defence counsel, the 65 ter

9 number -- excuse me, the exhibit number includes four pages. The first

10 two are the telex version of this document. The second two are the

11 version that was signed by Milosevic. They're identical in every other

12 way in terms of the text. If you look here on the first page of the

13 first version of the document, the telex version, you see a handwritten

14 note of the date, and this is reflected in the English translation on the

15 first page.

16 JUDGE ORIE: And it's translated as 1992.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: 1995.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, I'm sorry. Let me just -- no, you're right. I

19 made mistake.

20 MS. MacGREGOR:

21 Q. Mr. Lucic, do you see on the first page the handwritten notation

22 of the date, that it seems to say July 19th, 1995?

23 A. Yes, I see this is not typewritten. A pen was used.

24 Q. Is it correct that on that date, you were no longer assigned to

25 the 2nd Mountain Infantry Battalion, which you referred to in

Page 26287

1 paragraph 11 of your statement?

2 A. Yes, correct, I was within the brigade command.

3 MS. MacGREGOR: If I can please have 65 ter 31339, English

4 page 11, B/C/S page 13.

5 Q. Mr. Lucic, what's coming up on your screen is a document you were

6 shown before during the Karadzic testimony. It's a range table for a

7 60-millimetre mortar. And I'm going to turn to the page that deals

8 specifically with the range for the fourth charge.

9 Now, if we look at the bottom left of the chart on the B/C/S

10 version, would you agree, Mr. Lucic, that the maximum range is listed as

11 2.538 metres?

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where do we see that?

13 MS. MacGREGOR: On the very bottom left-hand corner of the B/C/S

14 version of the table, the last number.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was looking at the English, which is very small.

16 MS. MacGREGOR: May I move on?

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.

18 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you.

19 Q. Mr. Witness, do you agree that that is what the chart reflects?

20 A. Down here, I cannot see.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We can no longer hear the

22 witness at all.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please adjust your microphone

24 slightly so as to --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I see it in the first column,

Page 26288

1 2538.

2 MS. MacGREGOR: The Prosecution tenders this into evidence, Your

3 Honours.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31339 receives number P6791, Your

6 Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

8 MS. MacGREGOR: And the Prosecution no longer needs the document

9 on the screen.

10 Q. Mr. Lucic, before the break, you referred to a proceeding against

11 a soldier with the name Pejanovic for shooting a civilian. During the

12 break, the Prosecution conducted a quick search of our records of SRK

13 personnel and did not find a soldier with the last name Pejanovic. The

14 Prosecution did find a record of a soldier for the ABiH with the last

15 name Pejanovic. Do you recall if the soldier that you were discussing

16 before the break was Serb or Muslim ethnicity?

17 A. Soldier Pejanovic who fired, well, we did not keep records of

18 ethnic affiliation but he was an ethnic Serb.

19 Q. Are you saying Bejanovic, starting with B, as a boy; or

20 Pejanovic, starting with P, as in pirate?

21 A. P. P. That soldier was within the 216th and he stayed on within

22 the battalion.

23 MS. MacGREGOR: For the record, Your Honours, the Prosecution

24 searched with a misunderstanding that it was spelled with a B so ...

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and if we are talking about P or B, Paris, I

Page 26289

1 think, in both languages would give the clue to the right letter.

2 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Q. Mr. Lucic, is it correct that in your battalion, specifically

4 your battalion, there were no actual prosecutions for violations of

5 international criminal law?

6 A. No, not in my battalion. While I was commander, no, there was

7 not a single case.

8 I'm sorry, maybe I answered a bit too fast. Could you tell me

9 what you mean exactly by that? There were crimes. There were

10 violations, but at any rate, nothing went unpunished.

11 Q. By "prosecution," I'm referring to an investigation and a

12 criminal trial proceeding similar to the setting that we're in right now.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I think that perhaps not the use of the word

14 "prosecutions" may have triggered the problem for the witness but,

15 rather, the words "violations of international criminal law." I take it

16 by the way that these are violations of international law, although

17 criminal acts -- what Ms. MacGregor apparently is referring to is crimes

18 which are -- do exist in relation to the international law of warfare,

19 that is, attacking civilians, abuse of prisoners, well, that type of what

20 we find in the Geneva Conventions and what we find in other international

21 instruments regulating warfare. So that's, apparently, I understand

22 Ms. MacGregor was referring to.

23 Do you know of any prosecutions of any military men within your

24 battalion for such violations of the international law of warfare?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand. In my unit, the

Page 26290

1 unit I commanded, the battalion, there was not a single case of any

2 violation of these provisions of international law, and no one was tried

3 before an international court or a national court in that sense, as far

4 as I know.

5 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you.

6 Q. I have a few questions for you now about your assignment after

7 January 1993.

8 In paragraph 6 of your statement, you state that the command of

9 the 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade changed locations several times. Is it

10 correct by the time that you were moved to the brigade command at the end

11 of January 1993 it was located at Han Pijesak?

12 A. I was transferred in the beginning of February to the brigade

13 command. At that time, or before that, the barracks of the

14 216th Mountain Brigade of the JNA was the barracks in Han Pijesak.

15 However, when mobilisation was carried out, so that was earlier on -- so

16 at that time, that part of the brigade, except for part of the logistics,

17 was in the territory of Lukavica, that is to say, eastern Sarajevo.

18 Q. Can you please answer just the question. Where was the brigade

19 command located as of February 1993, please.

20 A. In February 1993, the command of the brigade was in the area

21 between Pale and Han Derventa where the road to Sarajevo and Sokolac

22 forks off, so perhaps about 17 kilometres away from Sarajevo in some

23 facility that was called Alpina.

24 Q. And at what point was it relocated to Han Pijesak?

25 A. When the brigade left its home barracks, as it were, in 1995, it

Page 26291

1 was never again retransferred to Han Pijesak.

2 Q. My question was when was it first at Han Pijesak.

3 A. We are talking about two structures of the brigade. Han Pijesak

4 was the location of the 216th Mountain Brigade of the Yugoslav People's

5 Army until 1991.

6 Q. I'm putting up my hand because we have a lot of evidence already

7 on this topic. And what I actually want to clarify, in the interest of

8 time, is were you outside of Sarajevo starting in February 1993 until the

9 end of the war?

10 A. The brigade command was outside of Sarajevo but one part of the

11 units was located there, facing the 1st Corps of the BH army.

12 Q. My question was about your location from February of 1993 until

13 the end of the war. Not the location of different parts of the brigade

14 command but you personally.

15 A. I personally was in the Alpina building between Pale and

16 Han Derventa. From Pale to Han Derventa is 7 kilometres, and the Alpina

17 building is halfway. And Han Derventa is 16 or around 16 kilometres from

18 Sarajevo.

19 Q. In the Karadzic trial, transcript --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Before we -- before we -- Mr. Stojanovic, if we want

21 Mr. Mladic to speak at a low volume, then you should come closer to him

22 rather than to keep on your earphones and receiving from a distance what

23 he says by far too loud. So that's my instruction for you.

24 Ms. MacGregor, would you have any indication as to how much time

25 you would still need because we are at a point where we have to adjourn

Page 26292

1 soon.

2 MS. MacGREGOR: I have one final question.

3 JUDGE ORIE: One final question. And then we'll see whether

4 Mr. Ivetic has further questions and whether we could extend the session

5 in such a way so that the witness could return before the weekend.

6 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please put that question to the witness.

8 MS. MacGREGOR:

9 Q. In the Karadzic trial, transcript reference 30796, you testified

10 that once you moved to the brigade command in 1993, you were "mostly

11 focused on organising defence towards Gorazde and the Nisici plateau."

12 Do you stand by that testimony?

13 A. Yes, but that term "organising" is something I would not accept.

14 The defence was already in existence but not in full. There were some

15 areas that were not defended, so it was a question of organising units to

16 defend such areas. It was not that I was organising something anew. And

17 that was, of course, on the orders of the commander. He specifically

18 directed me to that battalion whose command was in Podgrab to deal with

19 this.

20 JUDGE ORIE: You have explained that you used the word

21 "organising" as not setting up something from zero but that it was busy

22 with the continued organisation of.

23 Any further questions, Ms. MacGregor.

24 MS. MacGREGOR: No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, how much time would you need?