141001ED

Page 26462

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

2 Q. Good morning, sir.

3 A. Good morning.

4 Q. Sir, I want to ask first this morning very briefly about the time

5 when you were captured. There was fierce fighting between the VRS and

6 Muslim forces in Kotor Varos at that time; right?

7 A. Well, yes.

8 Q. And as for the operation in which you were captured, you heard

9 suggestions after the war or after your captivity that the Serbs had

10 collaborated in that operation; right?

11 A. I heard that from people with whom I was detained. The

12 information has never been checked so most of it is hard to believe but

13 as you know, anything is possible.

14 Q. And you're not personally certain if it's true or not; right?

15 A. No. There's no way I can be certain of any of that.

16 Q. Now, I want to turn to one of the other things that you heard

17 while you were in captivity. You explain in paragraph 5 of your

18 statement that: "On the 11th of June, 1992, the Muslims and the Croats

19 were preparing a celebration at Borje to which they invited all prominent

20 Serbs. The Serbs did not respond to the call since they had learned that

21 they were to be killed there."

22 Now, you also heard this from Sprzo during your captivity; right?

23 A. Correct. And he was the only one who told me that. When I was

24 set free, and allowed to go, I was very curious to find out how true that

25 was. Unfortunately, I could never obtain the exact information and find

Page 26463

1 out whether it was true or not. If it was true, that's awful. If it

2 wasn't, that's good.

3 Q. So you presently don't know whether that's true or not; correct?

4 A. No, I don't.

5 Q. And you mentioned yesterday that you'd been interviewed a number

6 of times by the military police during the war. You didn't provide this

7 information to them, did you?

8 A. That's correct, yes. In my view, it would have been stupid of me

9 to provide them with -- with information that wasn't checked, that I

10 wasn't sure of. The information that you hear during the war and that

11 you can be absolutely sure of is few and far between so it shouldn't be

12 shared, in my view.

13 Q. Now, related --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.

15 MR. TRALDI: Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you said it would be stupid to tell

17 something which was not verified when you were interviewed at the time.

18 Well, in your present statement, where it is still not verified, you have

19 apparently no hesitation to tell us even without telling us that it's

20 just what you heard and not what you know has happened. Would you

21 consider that stupid then as well?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hesitate to say that it is stupid

23 but yes, it is because sharing information that is not reliable,

24 speculate on things is useless. It doesn't make much sense.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course therefore, I ask you why you

Page 26464

1 apparently did it to inform us. Did you tell the Defence that it was

2 just what you heard and that you're not certain about what happened, that

3 is, that Serbs did not respond to the invitation and that they even had

4 found a list of those who had to be killed. Did you tell the Defence

5 that it was just what you heard from one person?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not only the Defence. Whenever I

7 had an occasion to talk about that, I told everybody that that was what I

8 heard. I repeat, yet again, that this information has never been

9 verified.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It doesn't appear in your statement that it's

11 just what you heard which is unverified. But let's move on.

12 But for -- whenever you're questioned about any matter, always

13 tell us if it is your personal knowledge or personal observation or

14 whether it's something you heard and, if so, from whom you heard that.

15 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

16 MR. TRALDI:

17 Q. Sir, in this respect, you also discuss in the same paragraph the

18 meeting of the Serb Municipal Assembly on the 11th of June at which you

19 say the decision was taken to take over power in Kotor Varos. Did you

20 attend that meeting?

21 A. No.

22 Q. The Chamber's received evidence, and I refer, for instance, to

23 exhibit P4235, that the takeover was planned at least several days in

24 advance. Do you know whether that's true or not?

25 A. I know nothing about that.

Page 26465

1 Q. Now, I'm going to turn to events on the 11th of June. I'm going

2 to ask you about three people first. Anto Mandic, the chair of the

3 National Defence Council in Kotor Varos before the war; Nedeljko Maric,

4 the police commander; and Miro Petrusic, the secretary for national

5 Defence. They were all arrested on the 11th of June, 1992; correct?

6 A. I apologise, what was the third name? I did not hear you well.

7 Q. The third was Miro Petrusic.

8 A. I knew the first two by sight. As for Miro Petrusic, the name

9 doesn't ring a bell, or rather I heard that they were taken for an

10 interview to the Kotor Varos police station. Why they were taken there

11 and by whom, how long were they kept there, I know nothing of those

12 things.

13 Q. Now, at this time you were guarding Kocka 1, 2 and 3 in

14 Kotor Varos; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Those buildings were about 200 metres away from a place called

17 the Pilana sawmill; right?

18 A. Yes, more or less.

19 Q. Now, do you know if any of the three men I just mentioned were

20 taken to the sawmill?

21 A. I really don't know.

22 Q. And to complete my questions about them, Mr. Mandic, Mr. Maric

23 and Mr. Petrusic, do you know their ethnicities?

24 A. Mandic was a Catholic, the second person was also a Catholic and

25 as for the third one, I don't know. But it would be my assumption that

Page 26466

1 he was too, but I'm not sure.

2 Q. Why would that be your assumption?

3 A. Well, you judge by the first and last names. If you look at

4 their names, you can more or less guess which ethnic group they belong

5 to. That's why I assumed that they were all Catholics.

6 Q. And you say Catholic, that means they were Croats; right?

7 A. Yes. Yes. But over there in our popular lingo, we call them

8 Catholics. As a matter of fact, they're Croats of Catholic provenance,

9 Christians.

10 Q. Turning to the sawmill briefly, you knew there were people being

11 kept in the sawmill; right?

12 A. Honestly, I didn't. But I did hear that people were brought

13 there after having expressed a wish to move out, to go somewhere. It was

14 some sort of a collection centre where they would be safe, where nobody

15 would touch them before they left the territory of Kotor Varos. Again, I

16 heard that. I wasn't there. You couldn't see that location from the

17 building where I was although it was not that far. However, what I'm

18 telling you is only what I heard.

19 Q. Just to follow up a little bit on the answer you've just given.

20 The people who you heard were brought there after having

21 expressed a wish to move out, those were civilians; right?

22 A. I think so.

23 Q. And do you know how long they would stay there?

24 A. A day or two. Until the transport was organised for them.

25 Q. Now, the transport, what you heard was that was to take them out

Page 26467

1 of Kotor Varos; right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And it would take them into Muslim territory.

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. Now, there were also soldiers from the 22nd Brigade of the VRS

6 active in Kotor Varos around this time, right, while you were standing

7 guard?

8 A. I am sorry, I did not understand your question.

9 Q. Sure. At the time you were standing guard in front of buildings,

10 Kocka 1, 2, 3, there were also members of the 22nd Brigade moving around

11 in Kotor Varos; right?

12 A. Soldiers did move about, but I can't tell you what brigades they

13 were from. However, it would have been logical if they were only

14 soldiers from the Kotor Varos Brigade. I'm not ruling out a possibility

15 that there were also soldiers from the 22nd.

16 Q. Were those soldiers also standing guard in front of buildings?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Could you tell what their task was?

19 A. I don't think they had a specific task. They saw each other in

20 passing, I believe. I don't know whether they went to apartments,

21 houses, whether they moved about from there. But none of us who were

22 there had any other tasks.

23 Q. Well, some people were tasked with going into buildings; right?

24 Going into apartments, going into houses.

25 A. Yes. There were things of that kind but again, I think that it

Page 26468

1 was done only when it was found out that people had weapons and they were

2 not supposed to have them, and things like that. But this is just me

3 guessing.

4 Q. You do know that people were tasked with going into buildings,

5 going into apartments, going into houses, and that you could see

6 individual people being taken out of the buildings; right?

7 A. I did not know that that was their task. Nobody told me that.

8 However, there were cases when I saw that people were indeed being taken

9 out.

10 Q. You saw people being taken out by soldiers; right?

11 A. It was done by the police, both the civilian and military police

12 forces together. I did not see any soldiers taking people out of the

13 buildings.

14 Q. So turning to a different topic, sir, there was also a Catholic

15 church less than 50 metres away from the buildings you were guarding;

16 right?

17 A. Yes, right to the building where I resided, at a distance of some

18 30 metres or so. It is still there.

19 Q. You say it's still there. In fact, it burned down on the 2nd of

20 July, 1992; right?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. When you say it's still there, what you mean is it was rebuilt

23 after the war; right?

24 A. Yes, I'm sure of that. And it was restored to its original

25 state. It's functioning, Catholics gather there during their church

Page 26469

1 rituals and services and so on and so forth.

2 Q. Now, I'd like to turn now to your evidence about Muslims and

3 Croats who were able to stay in Kotor Varos. First, in fact, many

4 Muslims and Croats left Kotor Varos during the war; right?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. You mention Muslims and Croats who were able to stay from three

7 villages, Zabrdje, Garici and Siprage. Now the people in every one of

8 those villages had surrendered their weapons to the Serbs; right?

9 A. Yes, they surrendered the weapons to the police organs and of

10 these three villages, none were literally ever engaged in any activities,

11 combat activities. I think that in the village of Zabrdje not a single

12 person lost their life during the war with the exception of one man, a

13 Croat, who, according to what I heard, opened fire at an ambulance

14 travelling in the direction of Banja Luka and the worst thing of all was

15 that in the ambulance was a little girl of a Croat, the girl was wounded

16 on that occasion and later died of those wounds.

17 So this was the story that circulated around and it's still being

18 told today, that is, that a Croat from that village killed a child, which

19 is worst of all, who was from his own ethnic community.

20 Q. Now, another village in Kotor Varos that the Chamber has received

21 evidence swore loyalty to the Republika Srpska, another non-Serb village,

22 was Hanifici. Now, in fact, in Hanifici the residents weren't as

23 fortunate as the residents of Zabrdje, Garici and Siprage, were they?

24 A. Probably they were not. Probably not. Although I hardly know

25 anything about that village. I had some acquaintances there.

Page 26470

1 Q. Did those acquaintances tell you that a group of Muslim civilians

2 there were gathered in the local mosque, were shot, and the mosque was

3 then set on fire. Were you aware of that?

4 A. Unfortunately, I heard about that. I heard about that. But I

5 don't know exactly when that happened, who did it, how many victims there

6 were. I know nothing about it. After all, even if there was a single

7 victim, that would be too many and if there were multiple victims then

8 it's really regrettable.

9 MR. TRALDI: Can we please have 65 ter 02566.

10 Just for the sake of the transcript, 02566.

11 Q. Now returning to the issue of whether Muslims and Croats stayed

12 in Kotor Varos, this is an assessment of the security situation in the

13 area of Kotor Varos from the Banja Luka state security department.

14 In the first paragraph, we read:

15 "The security situation in the area of Kotor Varos wartime

16 department has significantly improved compared to the situation at the

17 end of May and the beginning of June 1992, which is evident from the

18 balance of power on the ground."

19 "Since 11 June 1992, when the war in the Kotor Varos municipality

20 broke out, the Muslim-Croatian forces have been defeated and the Serbian

21 population, gaining the upper hand, established Republika Srpska. From

22 the last population census in 1991, out of 10.640 Croats, around 1.000 or

23 5 per cent remained, out of 11.161 Muslims, around 4.500 or 23 per cent

24 remained, while there are 14.000 or 72 per cent Serbs."

25 And I should point out it's dated the 10th of May, 1993. Do you

Page 26471

1 see that text?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. It then says:

4 "Croats remained in the villages of Zabrdje, Podbrdje, Sibovi,

5 Bastina, Novo Selo. There is a small number of them in Vrbanjci and

6 Orahova and a few in Kotor Varos. These are predominantly elderly people

7 who do not pose any real threat. Out of a total number of Muslims who

8 remained in the municipality, most of them are in Siprage and the

9 surrounding villages ..." and then it lists several of those where "where

10 they number about 3.500. They are also in Garici and Curkici. A very

11 small number of them are living in Vrbanjci and Kotor Varos itself. The

12 elderly and children are also predominant in this category but there are

13 also a good number of able-bodied men. We assess that around 400 people

14 are up to 35, and another 250 to 300 up to 55 years old."

15 So my --

16 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, Your Honour. Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. So, sir, were you aware that most of the Muslims who were left in

18 Kotor Varos were elderly people or children? Muslims and Croats.

19 A. Well, frankly speaking, I didn't know that because this kind of

20 information never reached me and it was impossible for me to receive it.

21 However, based on logic, it is possible that those who remained within

22 their homes were either old or very young because this middle group of

23 the range of age, who were of military age, in fact, went and joined

24 certain units. However, as I said at the beginning, this is the

25 information that I am not aware of.

Page 26472

1 Q. You single out in your statement three villages where you say

2 Muslims and Croats could stay in Kotor Varos. I'd put to you that what

3 this document shows is, in fact, the great majority of Muslims and Croat

4 had, in fact, left Kotor Varos by early 1993. That's true, isn't it?

5 A. I'm not sure that that is true because it seems to me, according

6 to what I learned by talking to the locals, the majority of Croats left

7 Kotor Varos after the combat activities ended in the area of the

8 municipality, that is to say, after the signing of the Dayton Accords.

9 You don't have to take my word for it, but I heard that Franjo Komarica,

10 the bishop of Banja Luka called upon Croats in the aftermath of the

11 Dayton to leave Kotor Varos to their homeland of Croatia, that there was

12 enough room for all of them there.

13 After talking with a couple of people --

14 Q. We're beyond I think the question I asked. This document here,

15 the Banja Luka state security department is clearly reporting that out of

16 10.640 Croats, around 1.000 remained as of May 1993; right?

17 A. I cannot say either yes or no. This is what the document says.

18 Supposedly it is authentic and then that's it. As I say, this type of

19 document never reached me. I never had an opportunity to see something

20 like that.

21 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 02566.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 02566 receives number P6808,

24 Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

Page 26473

1 Mr. Traldi, I take it that at some point in time, you'll explain

2 to me how 1.000 out of 10.000 is 5 per cent, how 4.500 out of 11.000 is

3 23 per cent. That's still mathematics which is apparently refers to

4 something different from what I can read here.

5 MR. TRALDI: I agree, Your Honour. I think it may be that those

6 percentages relate to the percentage of total people who remain but I'd

7 want to at least use a calculator before expressing that for certain.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's possible.

9 MR. TRALDI: It seems at least --

10 JUDGE ORIE: The total number is not given here and I can already

11 tell you that it could not be the explanation because 14.000 Serbs

12 remaining whereas the total population was at least -- I'm not talking

13 about Hungarians or Yugoslavs, is at least 14.000 plus two times 10.000

14 which makes 34.000 and I cannot come up with the 72 per cent Serbs unless

15 it is the new population.

16 MR. TRALDI: I had meant the population as of 1993 but we'll look

17 into it further.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then so that we at least understand what you

19 have put to the witness.

20 Please proceed.

21 MR. TRALDI:

22 Q. Sir, remaining in that paragraph, I just direct your attention

23 for a moment to the number of Muslims -- it says around 4.500 remain --

24 and ask you to remember that for a moment.

25 MR. TRALDI: Now if we can turn to exhibit P3217.

Page 26474

1 Q. This is a note from the Republika Srpska Ministry of the Interior

2 dated June 27th, 1994.

3 At the top we see the prewar ethnic distribution and then looking

4 lower on the page, we see Serbs, 14.000 approximately, Muslims, 1.800.

5 So looking at those two reports, we've seen another 2.700 Muslims left

6 Kotor Varos between May 1993 and June 1994.

7 There was no combat in Kotor Varos at that time; right?

8 A. I'm sorry, which period? Which period did you refer to?

9 Q. Between May 1993 and June 1994.

10 A. I don't think so. I don't think there was any combat operation

11 there.

12 Q. Now, the people who left generally left on convoys headed for

13 Travnik; right?

14 A. Yes, for the most part. Although some of them even walked up

15 there towards Travnik.

16 Q. Now, you mentioned you, yourself, saw one such convoy passing

17 through the village of Zabrdje in September 1992. And you say in

18 paragraph 19 of your statement that you recognised some neighbours of

19 yours on the convoy. Those neighbours were Muslims and Croats; right?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. Now, some of the people on the convoy eventually were able to

22 continue to Travnik, some were taken off and taken to Manjaca camp;

23 right?

24 A. I heard some allegations and speculations on that subject, but my

25 strict task assigned to me by my command was to go there in order to

Page 26475

1 recognise the people that I had seen in the course of my captivity, that

2 is to say, the people who tortured me and ill treated me while they were

3 holding me prisoner. Honestly speaking, I saw only one of them, but

4 since he treated me fairly, I did not want to report him because that

5 would not be a humane act. I didn't want to say anything against that

6 man.

7 However, I came across a lot of civilians, among other things,

8 behind the building where I was residing or where I still live, there's a

9 female neighbour of mine who had one under-aged son and one son who was

10 of age. She met me and she asked me by saying, Obrad, can you find bread

11 somewhere?

12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... material, I think that's in

13 your statement and beyond the scope of the question I asked you. So I'm

14 not challenging your evidence about having given these people bread. I'd

15 simply ask you to focus on the question that I'm asking. Is that all

16 right?

17 Now, you say that -- you describe a task assigned to you by your

18 command. This was an order from the corps command relayed to you via

19 your brigade command; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Your task was to look not just for people who'd ill treated you

22 but also individuals who used to have weapons and were on the other side;

23 right?

24 A. No. No. No. No. My sole task was should I identify someone

25 who maltreated me, to report this person to the police officer who were

Page 26476

1 present on the spot.

2 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31374, page 40.

3 Q. And while it comes up, sir, the police officer you were supposed

4 to report people to, that was military police, right, as you testified

5 yesterday?

6 A. There were both military and civilian police officers.

7 Q. What brigade were the military police from?

8 A. From the light Kotor Varos brigade.

9 MR. TRALDI: Now, if we could scroll down to -- starting at

10 line 20. You testified in the Stanisic Zupljanin case about this group

11 and you said, beginning at the end of line 20:

12 "My task was to have a look at these individuals and identify

13 among them those who tortured me, if any of them were, and to see if

14 among them were individuals who used to have weapons and were on the

15 other side."

16 Now, was your testimony in the Stanisic Zupljanin case truthful

17 in this respect?

18 A. Well, time goes by and it has its effects. Now frankly speaking,

19 I don't even remember any longer whether that referred only to those who

20 had ill treated me or perhaps that included some other persons as well.

21 I don't think that's too relevant. The important point is that I didn't

22 see any such persons.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, what is relevant and is not relevant will

24 be determined by the parties and by the Bench. You don't have express

25 yourself on relevance.

Page 26477

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Q. Now, sir, people, regardless of who had selected them, people

4 were taken off this convoy in Zabrdje as part of this search; right?

5 A. No, nobody was taken off at Zabrdje. They only boarded the buses

6 and continued their journey onwards.

7 Q. So they weren't on the buses, were there people that weren't --

8 let me rephrase that.

9 I'd put to you there were people that weren't allowed to get back

10 on the buses. That's true, isn't it?

11 A. I don't know. I am not aware of such instances.

12 Q. Were you aware of what would have happened if you'd identified

13 one of the persons that you were tasked with identifying, what would the

14 military police have done? Or the regular police.

15 A. Well, I suppose they would take them for questioning, maybe they

16 would be prosecuted before a court of law or something like that.

17 MR. TRALDI: Now finally, could we have 65 ter 31394. And out of

18 caution I'd ask that it not be broadcast.

19 Q. Now, this is an indictment filed in November 1993 and it refers

20 to a group of soldiers in -- all of them are identified by military post

21 VP 2233 Kotor Varos. That was the military post for the Kotor Varos

22 Light Brigade; right?

23 A. I think that's right but since it's changed quite a few times, I

24 think that by looking at these names, they were members of the Light

25 Kotor Varos Brigade.

Page 26478

1 Q. Now looking below the names, we see the words for the following

2 acts and it reads:

3 "On 28 June 1992, at 1600 hours, upon prior agreement, they came

4 together into the house of" - and then it names a person - "the village

5 of Orahova, drove her to the village of Dubrovci into the house of

6 Obrad Bubic from Maslovari and threatened her with firearms. They raped

7 the victim."

8 And then it gives more details. Now your house in Dubrovci is

9 the weekend cottage you mentioned yesterday; right?

10 A. Yes, unfortunately.

11 Q. Now and it says they'd gone to Orahova, that was a majority Croat

12 village; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, were you aware of this crime that had been committed in your

15 home in Dubrovci?

16 A. No. I learned about it three years ago. The principal accused,

17 Cicmanovic either died or got killed during the war. Anyway, he is no

18 longer living. Bozic is still alive. Markovic one and Markovic two are

19 also still alive.

20 Immediately after I had learned of this crime, I met

21 Ostoja Markovic listed here under number four. As luck would have it, he

22 managed to escape because I had an intention of choking him. And they

23 were or they are currently again the subject of court proceedings for

24 this same war crime and I believe that the main hearing is scheduled for

25 the 7th of October and I received summons to attend as a witness at this

Page 26479

1 trial.

2 You can rest assured, because Ostoja admitted to having committed

3 this crime, he and the others. I don't think it's enough to say that he

4 is a completely sick person, but whatever may be the case, I personally

5 would ask the court to impose the most severe sentence and punishment

6 upon him because my house was built up there for completely different

7 things. It was not made as a place where such heinous crimes would be

8 committed.

9 I condemn that even if they had been committed by my own child.

10 Believe it or not, after all of this, we stopped going there altogether.

11 In addition to that, we had floods in the area, so this house is

12 completely rendered unusable.

13 Q. Sir, just two brief questions to follow up. First, you say

14 proceedings are going on now. So it's true that none of these people

15 were punished during the war for this crime; right? If you know.

16 A. I know, or rather I heard that during the war, they were on

17 trial. There were proceedings instituted against them. How, where, when

18 and how it ended, I don't know. I did hear that there were proceedings

19 against them. I'm glad to hear that they are on trial and that they will

20 be brought to justice.

21 Q. And sir, I'd put to you that it was crimes like this and other

22 crimes that made Muslims and Croats feel they had to leave Kotor Varos.

23 That's true, isn't it?

24 A. I don't know. I can't speak for them and what they believed or

25 didn't believe.

Page 26480

1 In any case, any normal person will stand on its end when they

2 start thinking about war. Many fled without thinking twice in order to

3 save themselves and their families. And of course, if one hears of

4 things like that, the situation gets compounded because whoever heard of

5 a crime of that kind doesn't really think of who the victims were. The

6 most important thing was that the crime happened.

7 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender this document and that

8 complete my cross-examination. I'd ask that it be placed provisionally

9 under seal.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, the number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31394 receives number P6809,

12 Your Honours.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted under seal for the time being.

14 We'll take a break.

15 Mr. Lukic, could you tell us how much time you'd need after the

16 break?

17 MR. LUKIC: I need probably five minutes, six minutes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then you could consider to cross-examine the

19 witness now if you say it's just five minutes and then we would --

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 MR. LUKIC: We can finish then.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And then if it's five minutes, then there may be a

23 sixth or seventh minute for a question by Judge Moloto. Let's try to see

24 whether we can conclude the examination of the witness before the break.

25 Well, no --

Page 26481

1 MR. LUKIC: Judge Moloto wants to ask first.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Bubic, you say these people that were

3 mentioned here on this document are on trial right now as we speak; is

4 that correct?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This must be correct because I

6 received an invitation to appear before the court.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know what happened to the proceedings that

8 were initiated by this indictment which was in 1993?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I don't.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know this current proceedings that are

11 taking place, when they were initiated?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. Some 10 or 15 days

13 ago, I received an invitation to appear at a hearing on the

14 7th of October or perhaps the 8th of October. Please don't hold me to

15 the date. I'm not sure.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: And earlier than that, when the proceedings of

17 1993 had been initiated, you had never been invited to come and testify

18 at that time.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I knew nothing about that.

20 If I'd known anything about that, I would have done something, rest

21 assured.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not at all.

25 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

Page 26503

1 The next paragraph says the 2nd April 1992, the 6th Krajina Light

2 Infantry Brigade was transferred to Jasenovac. It looks like you said

3 something differently here but I'm not sure whether you are corrected.

4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour it should say in June 1991.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: In June 1991. Okay.

6 MR. LUKIC: The 6th Krajina Light Infantry Brigade was deployed

7 in Jasenovac.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: And then in April 1992.

9 MR. LUKIC: It was transferred from Jasenovac to Sanski Most.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, this being clarified so the public is now aware

11 as well. Mr. Jeremy, if you're ready, you may cross-examine the witness.

12 Mr. Davidovic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Jeremy.

13 You'll find him to your right and he's counsel for the Prosecution.

14 And could I already ask you to refrain from too much opinion in

15 your answers, that your statement is full of a lot of opinion.

16 Mr. Jeremy will ask questions of fact and you're invited to stick to

17 facts rather than to opinions, judgements, et cetera.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

19 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:

21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Davidovic.

22 Now, I'd like to begin by making a few clarifications in my --

23 for myself in your statement. If we can begin with paragraph 1 you

24 provide some details about your background.

25 Now, in the statement that you provided in the Karadzic case in

Page 26504

1 which you testified earlier this year, you provided some additional

2 details and I'm just going to read those additional details to you now

3 and ask you to confirm whether they are correct.

4 So you stated: "Until 1990, I occupied the following positions,

5 commander of the police station, president of the municipality, chief of

6 public security service, and a director of kindergarten."

7 Now, that is what you said in your Karadzic statement. Is that

8 correct? Do you stand by that today?

9 A. Yes, all of it is correct.

10 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 15 of your -- of the statement in this

11 case, you say that you responded to the call up on the 10th of April,

12 1992 now at that time you became a battalion commander; correct?

13 A. Yes, that is correct. And I have this call-up papers here with

14 me should you like to see it.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, in paragraph 14 you say two months after your

16 call-up, you were appointed assistant commander for morale, legal affairs

17 and information. So that appointment was made on approximately the

18 10th of June; correct?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Now, as assistant commander for morale, you reported to the

21 1st Krajina Corps on for morale issues as they related to the

22 6th Brigade; correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. And on the basis of the reports that you provided, the 6th corps,

25 Krajina Corps Command would report to the VRS Main Staff on the state of

Page 26505

1 morale in the Sanski Most municipality; right?

2 A. Well, that's how it's supposed to be. I don't know whether it

3 was. I sent my reports to the command in charge on the state of morale

4 in the 6th Light Brigade. I assume that they compiled the reports from

5 other units and sent them all to the Main Staff.

6 Q. We'll now look at a document you discuss in paragraph 16 of your

7 statement and at various other points as well. This is the combat report

8 of the 6th Krajina Light Infantry Brigade for 1992.

9 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see P3851 on our screens.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, this document is undated and it's unsigned.

11 Nevertheless, this is the 1992 combat report that you refer to in your

12 statement; correct?

13 A. Yes, that's a combat report for the year 1992, the one which I

14 made reference to in my statement.

15 Q. And this document clearly explains the activities of your brigade

16 over the course of 1992; yes?

17 A. Yes, that is correct.

18 Q. Now, in paragraph 13 of your statement, we read: "On returning

19 to Sanski Most, the brigade command installed itself in the village of

20 Lusci Palanka. The brigade command thought that in this way it would

21 help to calm tensions between the divided citizens."

22 MR. JEREMY: Now, in connection to that I'd like to look in page

23 3 of this combat report, page 3 in the English, please, page 4 in the

24 B/C/S.

25 Q. Mr. Davidovic, I'd like to focus your attention on the subheading

Page 26506

1 "The brigade from 3 April 1992 to 1 September 1992."

2 Now, below this we read, "When the brigade arrived in the

3 territory of Sanski Most municipality, the Serbian people greeted it with

4 enthusiasm and a feeling of security. They were attached to their army

5 and viewed it as their true protector. Contrary to the Serbs, the

6 Muslims viewed the arrival of the brigade with suspicion, resented its

7 presence, and closed ranks around the SDA, forging plans of retaliation

8 against the Serbian population."

9 Now, Mr. Davidovic, this combat report and the section that I

10 just read out sets out the true picture, yes, the brigade did not calm

11 tensions but rather the Serb population viewed it as their true protector

12 and the Muslims viewed it with suspicion, didn't they?

13 A. In order for this to be correctly understood, the essence is that

14 the Serbs were frightened as a result of the situation in Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina, Yugoslavia and especially in Croatia, that the crimes that

16 took place in 1941 and 1942 would be repeated in Sanski Most, that is

17 during World War II and I describe that in my statement.

18 Therefore, that is why the Serbs were delighted and according to

19 what we saw, this is not how the Muslims perceived it.

20 Q. Okay. Now, in paragraph 20, you also talk about the worsening of

21 interethnic relations between Serbs on the one hand, and the Muslims and

22 Croats on the other. And you make a reference to a historical event at

23 Sisinja [phoen], in fact you say: "The post-war generations would see

24 for years the blood that had poured out of the graves in which the

25 perished Serbs had been buried which added to the fear that the Serbs

Page 26507

1 might suffer the same fate again."

2 Now, in connection with this, I'd like to look at another portion

3 of this combat report.

4 MR. JEREMY: Could we please go to page 4 in the English and 5 in

5 the B/C/S.

6 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, I'm going to read a quote from this document

7 and it relates to documents allegedly found by the Sanski Most CSB which

8 we referred to in the preceding paragraph. We read:

9 "The documents found show that they intended to commit genocide

10 against the Serbian people, kill them and expel them, and create a Muslim

11 state in these parts; all renowned Serbs and their families were to be

12 killed and hanged in the park in Sanski Most; Serbian girls and women

13 were to be put in brothels to bear offspring to the Mujahedin and

14 Janissaries; Sharia laws and government were to be introduced as in Iran,

15 male Serbian children were to be circumcised and brought up according to

16 Islamic laws and principles."

17 Mr. Davidovic, this is the information which you provided to your

18 troops as commander for morale; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And rather than calm interethnic tensions and fears for the past,

21 this sort of language, the language that you use in your statements and

22 the language that we saw in this combat report that you helped draft that

23 actually manipulated those fears and increased those ethnic tensions;

24 correct?

25 A. We didn't speak to our troops in the same style as written here.

Page 26508

1 This was copied by the public security and national security services

2 from the documents and these were submitted to our security organs. So

3 we copied this verbatim and sent it upward to our command. However, in

4 talking to our troops, we never used this kind of language. On the

5 contrary, we did our best to convince them to forget what had happened in

6 the past and that in the present, it will not be repeated. Therefore,

7 whenever I was able and as well as other officers and especially me as

8 assistant commander for morale to speak to my soldiers, I always spoke to

9 them as a human being, and I always requested that they behave in every

10 possible situation as human beings and not as evildoers.

11 Q. Mr. Davidovic, on the basis of your answer to my question, it

12 seems that you would agree that this language would stoke ethnic tensions

13 between Bosnians and Serbs in Sanski Most; correct?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. But it's your evidence that this language was not used with your

16 troops; correct?

17 A. Correct. Never. Never was this language used. Quite the

18 opposite. Let us forget what had happened. Let us preserve as much as

19 can be preserved in terms of peace in the area, and let us leave it up to

20 the politicians and the state to regulate other things, because the Serbs

21 wanted to remain the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, whereas

22 the Croats and Muslims did not want that to happen.

23 Q. And it's also then your evidence that this combat report for the

24 6th Krajina Brigade was not made available to the members of that

25 brigade; correct?

Page 26509

1 A. No, no, it was not made available to brigade members. It was

2 drafted for the eyes of the superior command.

3 Q. In paragraph 21 of your statement, you state: "I know from some

4 polemics in the media that attempts are being made to present false

5 claims that the Serbs seized power in Sanski Most municipality which is

6 not true."

7 Now, on page 5 of this report, we read the following:

8 "In order to protect socially owned property on the

9 20th of April, 1992, the brigade took control of all the more important

10 facilities and localities in town."

11 Mr. Davidovic, as your combat report states, the 6th Brigade

12 played a key part in a pre-existing plan to take over power in

13 Sanski Most, didn't it?

14 A. Things came to a head. Everybody was dissatisfied. And one

15 could sense that palpably, it was very clear. The brigade command

16 pursuant to an order of the superior command decided to take the most

17 important features and facilities in the town and in the municipality in

18 order to protect themselves from possible sabotage activities. Whether

19 that was conducive to the takeover of power or not, I don't know. If you

20 would allow me, perhaps I can explain in detail.

21 I would like to start by saying that I don't understand the term

22 "takeover of power by the Serbs," in view of the fact that that

23 administration or that power was established already in December 1990 and

24 it was functioning throughout 1991 and continued to function until the

25 month of April.

Page 26510

1 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you but we read that in your statement and

2 I will explore with you what I mean by the "takeover of power by the

3 Serbs."

4 Now, in your last answer, you say that -- I'm just going to find

5 it -- that pursuant to an order of the superior command, it was decided

6 to take the most important features and facilities in the town and in the

7 municipality.

8 Now, in paragraph 34 of your statement you say that you're

9 puzzled by the suggestion that your brigade took part in an attack on the

10 Sanski Most municipality. Now, when you speak of your brigade taking

11 important features and facilities in the town, this was on the

12 19th of April, 1992; correct?

13 A. Yes, that is correct.

14 Q. But you would not characterise this as an attack but you agree

15 that important facilities were taken over by your brigade; correct?

16 A. I don't consider that an attack. There was nobody to attack. An

17 order arrived to prevent sabotage activities which were quite possible

18 under such circumstances.

19 JUDGE ORIE: What the witness states he was puzzled about might

20 not be that much interesting for others. What is important, what this

21 Chamber is puzzled about upon the presentation of the cases by the

22 parties.

23 Again, let's avoid that a witness who says that the takeover of

24 power, that it didn't happen, and then to say that he doesn't know what

25 is meant by a takeover of power, if we are discussing attacks and say

Page 26511

1 well, it was not an attack, we end up in a linguistic battle rather than

2 in an exploration of the facts and that's what the Chamber needs most.

3 And the Chamber is fully able and it also explains my warning to the

4 witness in the beginning of his testimony that is the Chamber is fully

5 able to make a distinction between opinion, judgement, et cetera and a

6 presentation of clear facts.

7 Could you please keep that in mind when you continue your

8 cross-examination, and you are invited to do that after the break.

9 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes.

11 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes from now.

12 You may follow the usher.

13 [The witness stands down]

14 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at quarter to 1.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 12.49 p.m.

17 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the witness to enter the

18 courtroom.

19 [The witness takes the stand]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Davidovic, Mr. Jeremy will now continue his

21 cross-examination.

22 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

23 Q. Mr. Davidovic, shortly before the break, we were looking at the

24 combat report from the 6th Brigade and we looked at some language in

25 there that referred to, among other things, genocide against the Serbs

Page 26512

1 and you agreed with me that that sort of language would stoke ethnic

2 tensions between Bosnian Muslims and Serbs in Sanski Most; yes?

3 A. Yes, if things were done that way.

4 Q. Now, you said that in respect to the -- to the combat report that

5 we looked at, that language, that that wasn't distributed to members of

6 your brigade. In connection with that answer, I'd like to show you a

7 document.

8 Now, before I do, your superior officer in the 1st Krajina Corps

9 was Milutin Vukelic, correct, once you became commander for morale and

10 religious affairs in your brigade?

11 A. Yes, he was a colonel. He was a corps member, yes.

12 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see P2874.

13 Q. Mr. Davidovic, we see that this is a report of the 1st Krajina

14 Corps command. It's dated the 21st of May, 1992. And if we go to the

15 last page we see that it is signed by the assistant commander for moral

16 guidance, Colonel Milutin Vukelic.

17 Now, in paragraph 2 of this document, we read, "In such

18 conditions, the Serbian people in BH and Croatia found themselves in the

19 most difficult situation. Even though the oldest and a constituent

20 people, they are exposed to unscrupulous deprivation of their rights:

21 transformation into a national minority and genocide."

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could we please note the reference in the B/C/S

23 text, where you're reading from, thank you.

24 MR. JEREMY: Paragraph 2, and I read the first sentence.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: On the bottom of the page.

Page 26513

1 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Could we please go to the --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Whoa --

4 MR. JEREMY: Could we please go to the second page in each

5 document, in fact, in the final page, please.

6 Q. Mr. Davidovic, just above the signature, we read: "Inform all

7 members of the Army of the Serbian Republic of BH about the contents of

8 this report in the most suitable way."

9 Mr. Davidovic, on the face of this document, it appears to

10 contain the language which you agreed would stoke ethnic tensions between

11 the Bosnian Muslims and the Serbs and we see that -- we see this

12 instruction to inform all members of the army of the Serbian republic of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. So would you agree with me that this report by

14 Colonel Vukelic would, in fact, stir those tensions?

15 A. Well, it could have happened as a matter of fact, but when

16 additional explanations were provided to the combatants, that means that

17 one should not necessarily expect any escalations. We were duty-bound to

18 proceed and treat every document from the superior command the same,

19 which means that we were duty-bound to inform our men of the contents of

20 this document. I don't know how we did it, but in general terms I can

21 guarantee you that every document was additionally explained to our men.

22 We told them exactly what was contained in the document and what the

23 contents of the document meant for them.

24 Q. Okay. Let's move on.

25 Now, immediately before the break, you spoke about your brigade

Page 26514

1 securing key facilities in Sanski Most on the 19th of April, 1992. Now,

2 it is correct, is it not, that this securing process had been planned

3 well in advance of the 19th of April, 1992?

4 A. No command would be serious if it didn't plan its activities in

5 advance and those activities which are indeed or were indeed planned in

6 advance were carried out. There was a group of people which was assigned

7 to secure certain facilities, not entire units. It was done according to

8 our estimates. We estimated how many men were needed to protect a

9 facility from any sabotage actions and destruction.

10 Q. And this securing was carried out in coordination with the

11 Crisis Staff; correct?

12 A. I wouldn't know that. I don't know whether that was coordinated

13 with the Crisis Staff or not. In any case we received an order from our

14 commander to do that. Whether the commander was in communication with

15 the Crisis Staff or not, I am not in a position to tell you because I

16 don't know.

17 Q. And in securing these facility, you acted in coordination with

18 the TO and the SJB; correct?

19 A. Of course for a territory to be cares free [as interpreted] there

20 should be a certain level of coordination. That coordination did exist

21 to a certain extent. However, we carried our own tasks and I mean us

22 lower-ranking officers and brigade members only pursuant to an order of

23 our chief and commander, I suppose that they issued order to us based on

24 the orders that they, themselves, received from their superior commands.

25 Q. Now, I'd like to take a look at a document in connection with

Page 26515

1 these events. Before I do, Nedeljko Rasula, he was the president of the

2 Sanski Most municipality; correct?

3 A. Yes. His party won the most votes in the multi-party elections

4 and then --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, please answer the question and leave it to

6 that. A "yes" is an answer to the question. Whether he was married, was

7 elected, it's not asked. Just limit yourself to the question.

8 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see P3294. And could we take a

9 look, please, at page 19 in the English, and page 16 in the B/C/S. I'm

10 looking at the bottom half of the English page and the top right side of

11 the B/C/S.

12 Q. Mr. Davidovic, as I mention, this is the diary of

13 Nedeljko Rasula. Before us we see the heading: "Course of action in

14 taking over power and establishing the Serbian municipality of Sanski

15 Most." We see that it is dated the 14th of April, 1992.

16 MR. JEREMY: If we could go to the next page in the English,

17 please.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, towards the bottom of the page in the

19 English --

20 MR. JEREMY: In fact I think we'll need to go to the next page in

21 the B/C/S, it appears. We see "Security measures to forestall any

22 resistance by the opposite side are given below ..."

23 If we go to the next page in the English, please.

24 And the bottom half of the B/C/S that you're looking at and the

25 top half of the English we see, "Providing security from outside we see

Page 26516

1 there's a reference to the 6th Krajina Brigade, the reserve police units,

2 and we see civilian territorial units.

3 Q. So the units that you've already mentioned, Mr. Davidovic, but

4 you would agree that this diary entry does suggest coordination with the

5 Crisis Staff in respect to the takeover on the 19th of April, 1992, in

6 Sanski Most.

7 A. The president of the municipality could plan whatever he wanted

8 and whenever he wanted and although the president of the municipality

9 tried sometimes to give us certain orders and instructions, we never

10 accepted any of those.

11 At that time, during the takeover of power, as you call it, in

12 Sanski Most, the 6th Krajina Brigade did not take part. Our units were

13 deployed at certain facilities and they were in reserve which means that

14 most of the men were actually at home.

15 Q. Mr. Davidovic, this entry that we are looking at is entitled

16 "course of action in taking over power and establishing Serbian

17 municipality of Sanski Most," hence my use of the word "takeover".

18 MR. JEREMY: Let's look at another entry in this document. Could

19 we please go to page 22 of the English and 14 of the B/C/S, please.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, we've already discussed your evidence in

21 respect to, you say, the brigade's aim was to prevent interethnic

22 conflicts and I'd like to look at an entry relating to this.

23 MR. JEREMY: Are we at page 14 in the B/C/S? Can we go to the

24 right.

25 One moment, Your Honour, I need to find the right page.

Page 26517

1 JUDGE ORIE: We see that it's half a page. If you would move to

2 the left, you may see something else. You see something else but

3 apparently not what you are seeking, Mr. Jeremy.

4 MR. JEREMY: If we go forward by -- can we go forward a page,

5 please. And another page, please. And by four more pages, please. I

6 think it's page 19 in the B/C/S. And by one more page, and with a thank

7 you for your patience to everyone.

8 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, we see that this is a meeting dated the 20th

9 of April, 1992, so that's a day after the takeover of the municipality

10 building.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We don't have the right one in English.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I think it is at the very bottom, it says, "Meeting

13 20th of April". And we now look at the next page where apparently it is

14 reported about that meeting.

15 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 MR. JEREMY:

18 Q. So we see those present at the meeting is General Talic,

19 Colonel Basara, Major Sarkic [phoen] and representatives of the SDS, SDA

20 and the HDZ.

21 Could we go to page 26 in the English, please, and if we can go

22 to the next page in the B/C/S.

23 MR. JEREMY: I see it's the right side I'd like to focus on.

24 We'll need to go one page back in the English, please.

25 Q. Mr. Davidovic, we see here concluding remarks from General Talic

Page 26518

1 at the bottom of the page. And we read: "The JNA Yugoslav People's Army

2 will guarantee the peace of the citizenry and security of property. We

3 are asking for your help."

4 MR. JEREMY: If we can go to the next page in the English,

5 please. We read:

6 "Don't call anyone for help, otherwise you will have Kupres,

7 Bosanski Brod, Vukovar."

8 Q. Mr. Davidovic, it's correct, is it not, that General Talic here

9 is issuing a threat at this meeting between representatives of the

10 various parties?

11 A. I did not attend that meeting. I don't know when that meeting

12 took place, who the attendees were. I don't know what was discussed. So

13 I would not be able to tell you what the general had in mind when he said

14 what he did.

15 Q. All right. Let's move on.

16 Now, in paragraph 40 of your statement, you say that

17 Colonel Basara was not a member of the Crisis Staff; correct?

18 A. No, he was not a member of the Crisis Staff. Colonel Basara

19 wasn't.

20 Q. I mean Colonel Basara.

21 MR. JEREMY: Could we go to page 40 in the English, please, and

22 it should be 30 in the B/C/S. Yes. Sorry, can we focus on the right

23 side. Thank you.

24 Q. Sir we see this is a meeting of the Crisis Staff, it's dated the

25 11th of May, 1992. Item number 1, we see: "Basara awaiting orders from

Page 26519

1 above to become a member of the War Staff, as the Crisis Staff is to be

2 referred to until further notice."

3 Now, Mr. Davidovic, General Talic was Colonel Basara's corps

4 commander; yes?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, on this issue of Basara's membership of the Crisis Staff,

7 I'd like to look at another document.

8 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see P404.

9 Q. I can tell you Mr. Davidovic, coming up on our screens will be

10 conclusions of the Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of

11 Sanski Most dated the 30th of May, 1992.

12 Now, we see the conclusions and we see A, towards the top of the

13 page, "The Crisis Staff consists of the following 12 persons, each one

14 having a clear domain of activities."

15 And if you look at number 10, we see Colonel Basara,

16 6th Krajina Brigade commander.

17 Now, Mr. Davidovic, it's clear from this document that

18 Colonel Basara did get those orders from above and in fact he was a

19 member of the Crisis Staff; yes?

20 A. As far as I know, and Colonel Basara told me several times

21 himself, that he wasn't a member of the Crisis Staff but that he did,

22 from time to time, attend the Crisis Staff meetings, as did I. I don't

23 know if he was actually a member of the Crisis Staff but I do know that

24 he claimed that he wasn't and I am convinced that he wasn't a member of

25 the Crisis Staff.

Page 26520

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: The OTP is aware and they have those documents as

3 their evidence where it is clear that Mr. Basara was not a member of

4 Crisis Staff. The documents --

5 JUDGE ORIE: This is not a matter to be discussed in the presence

6 of the witness.

7 MR. LUKIC: This is misrepresentation of the evidence.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think as a matter of fact what is presented

9 to the witness is this evidence. If you in re-examination would like to

10 put other documents to the witness, you are fully entitled to do so, but

11 this document is, as far as I hear, is not misrepresented in the

12 questions put by Mr. Jeremy. The question being whether this document

13 demonstrates something and well, whether there are other documents that

14 demonstrate other things is another matter, Mr. Lukic, but I do not see

15 any misrepresentation of the evidence at this point in time.

16 MR. LUKIC: I would ask -- my colleague is it an issue that they

17 have the documents in which it was noted who from the Crisis Staff is

18 absent and whether among those is ever mentioned, for example, Basara.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's -- you're discussing the content of

20 that evidence. I take it that in final argument you'll say that this

21 document doesn't say that much because you have other documents which

22 says the contrary. That's all fine, but Mr. Jeremy has not

23 misrepresented this piece of evidence which he now puts to the witness.

24 Please proceed.

25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

Page 26521

1 MR. JEREMY: Could we see another document, please, P4161 and it

2 relates to this issue about whether Colonel Basara was a member of the

3 Crisis Staff.

4 Q. Mr. Davidovic, we see that this is another Crisis Staff document

5 containing conclusions. It's dated the 19th of June, 1992. And we see a

6 list of names. Immediately above that list, we read: "Permanent members

7 of the Crisis Staff are the following," and at number 7, we read

8 Branko Basara.

9 Mr. Davidovic, it's clear on the basis of this document that

10 Branko Basara was not just a member of the Crisis Staff but a permanent

11 member; correct?

12 A. This is a document produced by the Crisis Staff, I suppose that

13 it was their desire to have Colonel Basara, the commander, to be their

14 member and that's why they put his name there.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, while the document, and therefore I invite

16 you again to refrain from speculating and from giving your opinion. The

17 document doesn't say we would wish the following persons to be permanent

18 members of the Crisis Staff. It says "permanent members of the Crisis

19 Staff are the following." So the document itself, and Mr. Jeremy, of

20 course, it's good that you put it to the witness, but to ask confirmation

21 on whether this is what the document says is not -- well, triggers these

22 kind of answers which are not of great assistance.

23 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, I'd like to stay with Colonel Basara but will

25 no longer look at this issue about his membership of the Crisis Staff.

Page 26522

1 Instead I'd like to show you his handwritten history of the

2 6th Krajina Brigade which I know you saw during your testimony in the

3 Karadzic case.

4 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see P2365 on our screens.

5 Q. We see at the top of the page, "The war record of the

6 6th Infantry Brigade", and the name Branko Basara.

7 Now, in paragraph 14 of your statement, you say that: "When the

8 brigade arrived in Sanski Most, it carried out an additional mobilisation

9 in cooperation with the Secretariat of National Defence in Sanski Most in

10 the hope that Muslims, Croats and Serbs would respond to their

11 mobilisation."

12 MR. JEREMY: Now, could we look at paragraph 4 of the document on

13 the screen in front of us, please. If we could go to page 2 in the

14 English.

15 Q. Now, in this paragraph 4, we read as follows --

16 MR. JEREMY: It's page 3 in the B/C/S, please. It's towards the

17 top of the page.

18 Q. A few sentences into paragraph 4 we read, "On the 3rd of April,

19 1992, the 6th was transferred in complete order and with the utmost

20 secrecy from Jasenovac to the area of Sanski Most, so that everyone was

21 surprised. With the arrival of the Brigade on this territory, the

22 Muslims and Croats became afraid, and the Serbs heaved a huge sigh of

23 relief.

24 JUDGE ORIE: You've added the "huge", Mr. Jeremy.

25 MR. JEREMY: Forgive me, Your Honour, it's my mistake.

Page 26523

1 JUDGE ORIE: It's about language and what it results in.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. JEREMY:

4 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, I'd like to focus your attention halfway down

5 this paragraph beginning with the words "we had to resort to a trick."

6 We read, "We had to resort to a trick to make it possible for us to arm

7 the Serbs publicly and legally: the story was devised that the commander

8 of the 1st Krajina Corps had ordered the 6th to be promoted from a light

9 to an infantry brigade, and that it could have as many as 15 battalions,

10 that the brigade should be mobilised as soon as possible so that the

11 Muslims and Croats would not enlist in the brigade, it was put about that

12 as soon as mobilisation finished, it was leaving for Kupres."

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Jeremy me, I read the word "demobilised"

14 instead of "mobilised". Some lines.

15 MR. JEREMY: I see that. Thank you for the correction. I've

16 misread again.

17 Q. Mr. Davidovic, according to your own brigade commander, and

18 contrary to your statement, steps were actually taken to discourage

19 Muslims from responding to mobilisation; correct?

20 A. As far as I know, additional mobilisation was carried out in a

21 legal manner, people were served call-up papers in a regular way. I also

22 know that our commander Basara attended talks with Muslim representatives

23 and asked them to influence the men who would receive call-up papers to

24 respond so that the ethnic composition of the brigade would approximately

25 reflect the national composition of the population in the area or, let's

Page 26524

1 say, 50 per cent of the Serbs and another 50 per cent of the Croats and

2 Muslims. This is the proposal that he made but they rejected it.

3 Q. You'd agree, Mr. Davidovic, that this proposal of

4 Colonel Basara's outline is at odds with the text that I've read from his

5 handwritten reports.

6 A. As far as I can see, this relates to 1991. I'm not familiar with

7 this text. I have never read it. But what I told you is the truth, that

8 an offer had been made, that they were invited to respond to the

9 mobilisation in order to prevent interethnic conflicts.

10 MR. JEREMY: Let's take a look at paragraph 6 of this document,

11 please. E-court page 3 in the English --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, it was clear your question was not

13 focused on 1991 because you put this to the witness and I think you --

14 the questions are -- that were answered by the witness were not focused

15 on 1991 and now you say this, the one contradicts the other.

16 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't include the time frame as a relevant

18 element for making such a comparison, I don't know what you had on your

19 mind but ...

20 MR. JEREMY:

21 Q. Mr. Davidovic, the --

22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm asking whether you had 1991 or 1992 on your

23 mind.

24 MR. JEREMY: Your Honour, I had 1992 on my mind and I was seeking

25 to clarify that with the witness.

Page 26525

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But then you should have clearly put that to

2 the witness and not of course the witness now said it refers to 1991 so

3 he noticed that. But in all fairness to the witness, you should have

4 done that and I'm saying this because earlier as well, when you are

5 asking questions and where you are putting to the witness about adding to

6 the ethnic tensions, you more or less misrepresented what the witness

7 said because he said the location we had chosen where there were tensions

8 was in order to make tensions less, and then the witness where he had

9 said several times that there were tensions, you put to him another text

10 which again was not fair in the comparison because it dealt with another

11 matter.

12 If you put to the witness some inconsistency, it should be about

13 the same thing and not about different things unless you clearly explain

14 that to the witness.

15 Please proceed.

16 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Could we look at paragraph 4, please, in this document. Page 2

18 in the English, page 3 in the B/C/S.

19 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, I've read out a section of this document to

20 you beginning on 3 April 1991. The 6th was transferred in complete order

21 and with the utmost secrecy from Jasenovac to the area of Sanski Most.

22 Now, it's correct, is it not, that this transfer was on the 3rd of April,

23 1992?

24 A. Yes, it is correct. The brigade came to Lusci Palanka in the

25 Sanski Most area from Jasenovac on the night between the 3rd and 4th

Page 26526

1 April 1992.

2 MR. JEREMY: Thank you. Could we please look at paragraph 6 in

3 this document, e-court page 3 in the English, 5 in the B/C/S.

4 Q. Mr. Davidovic, I'm going to start reading three sentences up from

5 the end of this paragraph 6, beginning: "The 6th then prepared the way

6 for the seizure of power and secured the take-over of the territory of

7 the municipalities of Sanski Most and Kljuc. The villages of Hrustovo

8 and Vrhpolje put up resistance. Our units successfully cleared those

9 areas."

10 Now, you were involved in these operations; correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you were also involved in the operations against Mahala which

13 preceded the --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, these were comprehensive operations carried out by the

16 6th Brigade in coordination with the TO; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And they were also carried out in cooperation with the SOS;

19 correct?

20 A. Yes. If I may add, the SOS was incorporated in the TO.

21 Q. Now, let's focus first on the operation in Mahala. Now, the

22 operation to disarm Mahala involved planned and coordinated military

23 attack by the 6th Brigade and the TO; correct?

24 A. There was a plan but not for an attack, but rather putting the

25 territory under control and disarming of groups and individuals illegally

Page 26527

1 armed who, prior to that, failed to voluntarily surrender the illegal

2 weapons in their possession.

3 Q. And subsequent to what you described as the failure to surrender

4 the illegal weapons in their possession, there was an artillery attack on

5 Mahala; correct?

6 A. This is partially correct. If you allow me, I can explain.

7 There was an artillery attack but it took place on the previous night.

8 If I may clarify, with your permission.

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. On the previous night, I and my battalion were more than 10

11 kilometres from Sanski Most whereas the Muslim forces deployed in the

12 area or rather the neighbourhood called Mahala were on the left bank of

13 the Sana River. This is an area predominantly populated by Muslims

14 whereas the right bank of the river Sana was mostly Serb populated.

15 On the previous night, their units or individuals and who else

16 was there also opened fire from the left bank to the right bank. Later I

17 learned that one of our artillery units which was deployed on a hill

18 above the town used mortars and fired a few shells and hit a shed or a

19 barn where there were two thoroughbred horses belonging to a gentleman

20 whom I knew. However, to make the story short the aim was to prevent and

21 thwart any further attacks by the Muslims coming from the right bank --

22 from the left bank against the right bank.

23 MR. JEREMY: Could we take a look at your statement, please, I'm

24 going to quote from it so let's put it into e-court. D675, please.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, while we are waiting for that document,

Page 26528

1 one further comment on my part. If you would have drawn the attention to

2 the 1991, 1992 issue right away you would have prevented me from

3 intervening and now reading the follow-up questions, I imagine that you

4 were a bit embarrassed by it.

5 You had it on your mind, apparently, but you didn't make it clear

6 to us.

7 And I have another question for the witness. This document where

8 it talks about arming Serbs which cannot be openly done and that

9 therefore you would need a trick, are you aware of any arming of Serbs by

10 a tricky approach to the issue?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know that. All I know

12 is that we were regularly issued weapons whenever we responded to a

13 call-up. No.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apparently Mr. Basara looks at it at a

15 different way.

16 Next question, please, Mr. Jeremy.

17 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

18 Could we please see page 8 in the English and page 10 in the

19 B/C/S.

20 Q. Mr. Davidovic, I'd like to focus your attention on paragraph 30

21 of your statement. Now, in the answers you've most recently provided to

22 me, you mentioned that there was indeed an artillery attack against

23 Mahala yet in paragraph 30 of your statement we read that you state

24 categorically that it is a lie that there were civilian casualties in

25 Mahala because there was not even any fighting there, "other than some

Page 26529

1 sporadic rifle fire in passing through and during the search of the area,

2 which was finished in a few hours."

3 Mr. Davidovic, on the basis of your previous answer we should

4 also add in this artillery attack; correct?

5 A. This artillery attack took place on the previous night, not on

6 the day when we went to carry out the cleaning of Mahala, so the night

7 before.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you for that clarification.

9 Now, the mopping up operations carried out by your brigade that

10 followed this incident in Mahala also included attacks on the villages of

11 Hrustovo and Vrhpolje; correct?

12 A. This operation was conducted later. So the mopping up of Mahala

13 took place on one day and Hrustovo and Vrhpolje were mopped up a few days

14 afterwards.

15 Q. Now, the Trial Chamber has heard extensive evidence regarding

16 these operations and you cover them in some detail in your statement. So

17 I just want to focus on the role you played in them.

18 Now, during these operations, you were a battalion commander;

19 correct?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. And during the disarmament operation in late May, you and the

22 unit you commanded were based in Kljevci; yes?

23 A. The village of Kljevci.

24 Q. Forgive my pronunciations. That was a Serb village next to

25 Hrustovo; yes?

Page 26530

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. And people from Hrustovo and other villages in the area handed

3 over their weapons to you personally; correct?

4 A. No, that's not correct. I heard some statements that they made

5 to that effect, but it's not true.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, don't comment on statements of others. We

7 do not know what you have read. Tell us what it is and do not comment on

8 others. Please proceed.

9 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours. Can we please see --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps the witness can answer the question.

12 No weapons were handed over to you by villagers from Hrustovo and

13 other villages in the area. Is that your testimony?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only the people from Hrustovo

15 failed to do that. The other villages surrendered their weapons but that

16 was earlier in the preceding days.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Days preceding what? The mop-up operations or what?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Prior to the mopping up operation

19 of Mahala and Hrustovo.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

21 MR. JEREMY:

22 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, it's correct, isn't it, that despite the fact

23 that the citizens of Hrustovo handed over their weapons to you, that

24 village was shelled by your brigade regardless; yes?

25 A. I said a moment ago the weapons were not handed over to me and

Page 26531

1 that applies to any other member of the brigade. I think I provided a

2 detailed explanation of that in my statement but if you wish, I can

3 explain again.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, indeed the witness said that those in

5 Hrustovo had not handed over the -- their weapons. There may be some

6 discussion about when they had not done that or whether they did it at a

7 later stage, yes or no. But you should clarify that rather than to put a

8 question to the witness which is inconsistent with what he testified a

9 moment ago.

10 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honour, I'll do that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do.

12 MR. JEREMY:

13 Q. Witness, for my own understanding, weapons were handed over to

14 you by certain villagers in your area of responsibility but persons from

15 Hrustovo did not hand over their weapons to you. Is that your evidence?

16 A. That is correct. I can give you the names.

17 Q. Now, in connection with that answer, I'd like to show you an

18 exhibit.

19 MR. JEREMY: I'm not sure if we are close to break time or ...

20 JUDGE ORIE: Well -- what I would suggest, as a matter of fact,

21 to have a -- because it if we take a break now we have 10 minutes left

22 after the break. Another way of proceeding would be not to take the

23 break now, to take another ten minutes but I leave it to the Defence

24 whether that would find any objections because otherwise we take a break,

25 continue for 10 minutes and then adjourn for the day. Or take the break

Page 26532

1 now.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 MR. LUKIC: We can continue, Your Honours. We can continue.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Jeremy, you can continue for another ten

5 minutes. By the way, how much time do you need?

6 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I estimated two hours for this witness

7 and I think I'll use my time.

8 JUDGE ORIE: We'll check that with Madam Registrar, at least the

9 next ten minutes you can use and meanwhile Madam Registrar will inform me

10 about the time.

11 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Could we please see P2502. This is the witness statement of

13 Witness RM708.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Any protective measures, Mr. Jeremy, or not?

15 MR. JEREMY: The statement is under seal, Your Honours, but that

16 relates to sensitive material in certain paragraphs of the statement.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if it's under seal, it should not be shown

18 to the public.

19 Please proceed.

20 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Could we please go to page 3 in the English --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then again, if something is confidential,

23 Mr. Jeremy, only if there's need, if there's a necessity to use it for

24 the further presentation of your case or for preparing of it, then you

25 can do it. But if, for example, you could quote from that statement

Page 26533

1 given the P number to the parties so that we are able to verify, then --

2 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, it's my mistake, the document is not

3 under seal.

4 JUDGE ORIE: That's confirmed by Madam Registrar by now.

5 Please proceed.

6 And you have some time left, Mr. Jeremy, you have used

7 approximately one and a quarter of an hour, where you asked for two

8 hours.

9 Please proceed.

10 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, on the screen before us we see that this is

12 the witness statement of Adem Seferovic. Did you know this person?

13 A. No.

14 MR. JEREMY: Could we go to page 3 in this document. Page 3 in

15 the English and the B/C/S.

16 Q. Mr. Davidovic, in the B/C/S I'd like to focus your attention on

17 the paragraph that's four sentences up from the bottom. And we'll get

18 the English page shortly.

19 In the English, I'm looking at the paragraph that's three

20 paragraphs up from the bottom.

21 Now we read that the shelling of Hrustovo commenced on the

22 27th of May, 1992, and it resumed until the 31st of May. "Every day a

23 new ultimatum was given on the radio to surrender our weapons. The name

24 of our village was mentioned in the announcements. On the 30th of May

25 1992, we decided to surrender our weapons. We took all our weapons to

Page 26534

1 Kukavice hamlet from where Husein Merdanovic transported them to Kljevci

2 by tractor. There was no fighting before handing over the weapons

3 because Serb infantry was not present in the village at that time."

4 The next paragraph we read, "When Husein returned he spoke with a

5 Serb Brane Davidovic. I think that Davidovic was a reserve officer and

6 had come Kljevci to collect weapons. Husein and Davidovic knew each

7 other from before. He had promised the people in Hrustovo can return

8 back to their homes and nothing will happen to them. However, the

9 shelling resumed after some hours. I had a feeling that the shelling

10 originated from several directions. We could see that the village of

11 Vrhpolje was shelled simultaneously."

12 Now, Mr. Davidovic, the two paragraphs that I've read out suggest

13 that the people from Hrustovo did surrender their weapons to you but

14 despite that, Hrustovo was shelled regardless. That was the case;

15 correct?

16 A. That statement is not correct. If you read my statement, you

17 will see what happened and how. If you just follow the logic. I can

18 give you a detailed description of the events if you will only allow me

19 to do that.

20 Q. You described these events in your statement, Mr. Davidovic.

21 What I'm asking you is whether it's correct that weapons were from

22 Hrustovo were in fact surrendered to you but you shelled that village

23 regardless.

24 A. That's not correct.

25 Q. Now, in paragraph 29 of your statement, referring to Hrustovo,

Page 26535

1 you say that there can be no talk of unarmed civilians as the other side

2 likes to portray it."

3 Now, this Trial Chamber has received evidence that the

4 6th Brigade members shot dead unarmed women, one of whom was pregnant,

5 and children who were sheltering in a garage in Hrustovo on the

6 31st of May, 1992. Were you involved in this attack on these unarmed

7 civilians?

8 A. No. When they failed to surrender weapons, and when the superior

9 command issued a decision to start the mopping up operation, our

10 combatants did what was done in any other village and a few days before

11 that, I talked to them asking them to surrender their weapons. And you

12 will see it in my statement at the moment when they launched that mopping

13 up operation, three of our fighters were killed and then we started the

14 shelling campaign.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The question was about a different thing. The

16 question was about the killing of an unarmed woman in a garage with the

17 children on the 31st of May. Did that happen as far as you know?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that that happened,

19 but it is possible that it did. I was not there.

20 JUDGE ORIE: You don't know about it. Next question, please,

21 Mr. Jeremy.

22 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Davidovic, this Trial Chamber has also heard evidence about

24 events on Vrhpolje bridge on the same date, 31 May 1992, there soldiers

25 rounded up inhabitants of Begici near Vrhpolje, took the men to Vrhpolje

Page 26536

1 bridge, beat them, forced them to jump off and shot them with automatic

2 weapons as they did. You were aware of these events; yes?

3 A. No, no, not at all.

4 Q. So is your evidence that you've never heard of this particular

5 event?

6 A. I did hear of this instant if it did happen, but I also heard or

7 rather this Trial Chamber has heard and in that same way I heard. I

8 wasn't there but I only subsequently heard that some Muslims were saying

9 that it was an armed group of people who supported beards who had

10 different uniforms or clothes on them.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, save us to tell us what witnesses told us.

12 We are fully aware of what witnesses have told us. There's no need that

13 you will give your version of what the witnesses testified about here in

14 Court.

15 Mr. Jeremy, part of the problem was in your question where you

16 say: were you aware? Of course that always raises the question when.

17 MR. JEREMY: That would have been a follow-up question,

18 Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you needily limit it in time, you avoid --

20 but I leave it to you. Please proceed.

21 MR. JEREMY: I think we're at the end of the day.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are at least at a time to adjourn for the

23 day.

24 We will adjourn but, Witness, first I'd like to instruct you that

25 you should not speak or communicate in any way with whomever, whether

Page 26537

1 that evidence is already given or whether that evidence is to be given

2 tomorrow. We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning, 9.30, in this same

3 courtroom I think. You may follow the usher.

4 [The witness stands down]

5 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and we resume tomorrow,

6 Thursday, the 2nd of October, 2014, Courtroom III, 9.30.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.57 p.m.

8 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day of

9 October, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.