141110IT

Page 28020

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 WITNESS: TOMISLAV PUHALAC

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Puhalac. Please be seated.

6 Mr. Puhalac, you will first be examined by Mr. Ivetic, you'll

7 find him to your left. Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of

8 Mr. Mladic.

9 You may proceed.

10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

11 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

12 Q. Good day, sir. Can I ask you to please first state your full

13 name for the record.

14 A. Tomislav Puhalac.

15 MR. IVETIC: I would now like to take a look at 1D4400 in

16 e-court.

17 Q. Now, sir, while we have that on the screen this is a written

18 statement from the Karadzic trial. I would like to first ask you if you

19 recall giving this statement to the Defence team of Mr. Karadzic?

20 A. I do.

21 MR. IVETIC: And if we can turn to the last page of the document.

22 Q. There is a signature on this page. Can you tell us whose

23 signature that is?

24 A. Mine.

25 Q. After signing this statement in the Karadzic trial, did you have

Page 28021

1 a chance last week to read the same with me to verify if everything is

2 correctly recorded therein?

3 A. I did.

4 Q. Now, if we can turn to paragraph 2 of your statement which is to

5 be found on the first page in both versions. In the second paragraph,

6 sir, do you have any corrections in relation to the location names

7 listed?

8 A. I do. Sokolac should not read Sokoldju [phoen] but

9 Sokolu [phoen] with an L. It should read in Sokolac.

10 Q. Thank you, sir.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: In English it makes no

12 difference.

13 MR. IVETIC:

14 Q. And, sir, I note that the Serb states the second location as

15 being Lukavica, whereas the English says Lukavac. Could you please tell

16 us which of these names is correct for the location of the Central

17 National Bureau?

18 A. The correct is Lukavica. Lukavac is a different place in

19 Central Bosnia.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where's the Sokolac in paragraph 2 anyway?

22 MR. IVETIC: It's not it's Sokoc in English, S-o-k-o-c, that's

23 the error that's been corrected.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The fourth line from the bottom of paragraph 2.

25 MR. IVETIC: And if we can turn to page 6 in English and page 3

Page 28022

1 in the Serbian.

2 Q. In the upper third of paragraph 12 I see here listed an

3 individual who is said to be from Serbia that is reflected as being in

4 the English "Dzindzic," whereas the Serb has the same individual being

5 called "Dzidic," and I'd like to ask you which is the correct

6 identification of the individual brought into the MUP from Serbia?

7 A. Dzidic.

8 Q. And just to clarify, what was his ethnicity? Could you tell us

9 what was the ethnicity of this individual with a last name Dzidic from

10 Serbia?

11 A. Bosniak.

12 MR. IVETIC: And if we could turn to page 8 in the English and

13 page 4 in the Serbian.

14 Q. At the bottom of paragraph 16, I again see the word Sokoc,

15 S-o-k-o-c, as a place name. Does this also need to be corrected as

16 you've already identified?

17 A. Yes, it's Sokolac.

18 Q. Now, sir, apart from these few corrections that we have gone

19 through this morning, do you stand by the rest of your written statement

20 as being accurate?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And insofar as you have taken the solemn declaration today, if I

23 were to ask you the same questions today would your answers be the same

24 as in the statement and would they be truthful?

25 A. They would.

Page 28023

1 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender the document 1D0440 as

2 the next public exhibit.

3 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.

4 Madam Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D4400 receives number D758,

6 Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

9 I have a short summary to read for the public, and it begins as

10 follows.

11 The witness joined the SDB, state security department, of the

12 SRBiH in 1977 and thereafter worked in various functions of that state

13 department. At the outbreak of the war, he was in the department for the

14 prevention of drug abuse. From the beginning of the war until 2005, he

15 worked in the CNB, the Central National Bureau of the Republic of Srpska.

16 Per the witness, the Croat HDZ and Muslim SDA coalition within

17 the BiH MUP did everything they could to discriminate against Serb

18 members and to prevent their involvement in the decision-making process

19 and sensitive work of the SDB and the MUP.

20 This same coalition created a space for the formation of

21 paramilitary units in the MUP, including criminal armed formations. The

22 Muslim state leadership then organised the arming of paramilitary and

23 para-state organs with illegal weapons.

24 The BiH MUP began mobilising and training reserve members who

25 were loyal to the SDA, while notorious criminals were given MUP

Page 28024

1 credentials and these persons began harassing Serb members of the SDB.

2 The witness himself was stopped in Bistrik by heavily armed criminals

3 wearing green berets who took away his official pistol and threatened to

4 kill him in front of his family. When he reported this to the Sarajevo

5 CJB, they refused to undertake any measures.

6 Employment of Serbs in the BiH SDB was discontinued in early

7 April 1992 and they were expelled from Sarajevo, their apartments broken

8 into and plundered, and those that stayed in Sarajevo tortured or killed.

9 And that completes the summary and I'd like to move on now to

10 some additional questions I have.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please do.

12 MR. IVETIC:

13 Q. Sir, I'd like to take a look at paragraph 4 of your statement

14 which will be found on page 1 in the Serb and page 2 in the English

15 versions. Here in this paragraph you identify a Mr. Branko Kvesic, a

16 Croat who became head of the SDB. Did he remain in that position the

17 entire duration of the war?

18 A. No, in the beginning of the war he left Sarajevo and together

19 with some other staff he went to Mostar.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is he Branko or Brane?

21 MR. IVETIC:

22 Q. Is he Branko or Brane?

23 A. I'm not sure. I believe he was Branko Kvesic.

24 Q. Okay. Now if we can look at paragraph 7 of your statement which

25 is on page 3 in the English and page 2 in the Serb, here you make

Page 28025

1 reference to "verified information" on the establishment of paramilitary

2 and parastate organisation by the Bosnian Muslim state leadership. Can

3 you be more precise as to what type of verified information you are

4 relying upon here?

5 A. In the period of the end of 1991 and early 1992, I was relying on

6 my personal observations and those of my colleagues.

7 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you, given your position within

8 the Serb national security service, did your service ever have an office

9 or an officer in Trnovo during 1992?

10 A. No, we did not have an organised section or a representative in

11 Trnovo.

12 Q. Okay.

13 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to now call up Exhibit P6889 in e-court.

14 Q. Now, sir -- I'll wait for the English - this document on its face

15 says that it is a report and -- on the activities and operation of the

16 Trnovo SDS municipal board from the period of 01 January to 31st May

17 1992. Now, first looking at the first page of the report and the header,

18 can you tell us if this follows the standard format for a report that you

19 would expect from your service, your organisation ?

20 A. No, this is not a document from our service, the one that I

21 worked in.

22 MR. IVETIC: And if we can look at the last page in both

23 languages.

24 Q. The report, the one signed, has at the bottom the author listed

25 in the Serbian as Odjeljenje SDB Trnovo. What comment can you make about

Page 28026

1 this formulation of the entity that is stated as being the author of this

2 document?

3 A. That entity did not exist and this is not a document of any

4 section of the SDB Trnovo. I mean, considering that Trnovo belonged to

5 the Sarajevo centre where I worked, it's not a document from that

6 institution.

7 Q. What acronym was used for your organisation during 1992?

8 A. Well, beginning with April it was SNB, the national security

9 service.

10 Q. Okay.

11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, one more thing to note. I read the

12 Serbian title because the English translation has "State Security

13 Service," whereas the Serb original has the acronym "SDB." So I would

14 bring that to Your Honour's attention. I don't know whether we need to

15 have this document revised to have the translation reflect the original

16 or not, but I think it's pretty apparent on the face of the document the

17 acronym. And --

18 JUDGE ORIE: You would say that the acronym is important because

19 apparently, as the witness told us, the acronym changed?

20 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you announced this as being an exhibit,

22 but it is a document MFI'd, isn't it, that -- from your --

23 MR. IVETIC: Oh, I apologise.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- questions. I take it that that's what was on

25 your mind when you asked the questions.

Page 28027

1 MR. IVETIC: That's correct. That was on my mind. I apologise

2 if I misspoke. I did not have the full notation of the document.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is a document tendered by the Prosecution.

4 You've heard the issue about the translation. Could you please

5 take care that acronym and full text will be verified whether there's any

6 cause of any problem.

7 I do know, however, Mr. Ivetic, that sometimes explanations are

8 not always welcomed by the Defence if it is about translations. But

9 we'll find a solution for it.

10 MR. IVETIC: I appreciate that, Your Honours. Thank you.

11 I'd like to now go to another document, 65 ter number 1D04409.

12 Q. And when that comes up, sir, my first question to you will be to

13 ask if this is a document that you are familiar with. And now that we

14 have that on the screen that is what I would ask you: Is this a document

15 that you are familiar with?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And the -- well, let me ask you this way: How is this

18 information in -- or how is this document related to the information

19 contained in paragraph 7 of your statement?

20 A. Well, it corroborates my assertion because this document came to

21 the headquarters of the service and it was done by my colleagues.

22 Q. And is this individual giving the statement the same person

23 that's identified in paragraph number 7?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you've said that your colleagues took the statement. Are you

Page 28028

1 familiar with how the statement was obtained from this individual?

2 A. Well, at the time when he was stopped an interview was made and

3 this information was collected.

4 MR. IVETIC: And if we can turn to page 4 of the original.

5 Q. It appears to be a handwritten version giving the same text in

6 Serbian, and I'd like to ask you: Do you know how the handwritten copy

7 came about in relation to the taking of the statement from this

8 individual?

9 A. The person wrote it.

10 Q. When you say "the person," could you please -- are you talking

11 about your colleagues or the individual identified in the statement?

12 A. I assume -- actually, I know and I saw it at the time that this

13 draft was handed over. It was done by the person in question, the person

14 that is mentioned in my statement.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender this document into

17 evidence at this time as the next available exhibit number.

18 MS. MacGREGOR: Good morning, Your Honours. The Prosecution

19 objects that there hasn't been adequate foundation laid for this

20 document. If you look at the document itself, it lacks any stamp or

21 official markation and has no signature and the witness's evidence does

22 not lay a sufficient foundation otherwise.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.

24 MR. IVETIC: Paragraph 7 of the witness's statement identifies a

25 confession by a named individual. I have presented it to the witness and

Page 28029

1 he has identified personal knowledge of this document and it being the

2 basis for his evidence in paragraph 7. So I think that the foundation

3 has been established. I -- I mean, the Prosecution is correct that there

4 is no signature and there is no heading, but that doesn't affect the

5 admission of the document. It would go towards weight or other

6 considerations.

7 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, the witness's evidence is that he

8 is familiar with the document, that it was done by his colleagues, and

9 that the interview was made and the information was collected. He says

10 that the person wrote it and he saw the document. This is not any

11 information about the making of the document, it's not information about

12 how the interview was conducted, how it was collected. It's -- it's

13 visually seeing the document. It doesn't really provide much more

14 information about the document itself.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will consider the admission of this

16 document. Meanwhile, it will be MFI'd.

17 Madam Registrar.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D4409 receives number D759,

19 Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: D759 is marked for identification.

21 Mr. Ivetic, if you introduce again a document like this one, it

22 took me a while to find out what you were talking about because you asked

23 the witness whether he was familiar with it, you apparently are familiar

24 with it, but what it was, it took me at least a couple of minutes to --

25 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.

Page 28030

1 JUDGE ORIE: -- quickly glancing through it what it was.

2 Therefore, I want to re-read also your questions and the answers when put

3 at the time when I was still figuring out what I was looking at.

4 MR. IVETIC: That's fair, Your Honour, I have no problem with

5 that.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just wanted to say maybe we might try to check

9 the translation here because from my limited observation of what's

10 happening here, the handwritten statement says 19th March 1956 - if I'm

11 reading that correctly - the typewritten line says 1953 as the date of

12 birth. So I'm not quite sure whether there may or may not be other

13 mistakes or differences between the statements.

14 MR. IVETIC: That is correct, Your Honour. So perhaps it is best

15 then to submit the handwritten one for translation by CLSS or

16 verification of the translation by CLSS.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, where does the document originate from?

18 That's often an important --

19 MR. IVETIC: It was an exhibit in the Karadzic proceedings used

20 with this witness, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but where does it come from?

22 MR. IVETIC: That I don't know.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Are you serious in saying that you are relying on

24 a -- such an underlying document, a document where you could guess that

25 the Prosecution may have further questions on its origin, and that you

Page 28031

1 say: Well, it's from the Karadzic Defence. You have not verified, you

2 have not asked any further questions.

3 MR. IVETIC: Well, when it's authenticated from by a witness from

4 the service in two trials, I believe I am justified in relying upon that

5 authentication, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you can do whatever you want of course. The

7 only thing I'm saying to you is that if there is a document which, from

8 its appearance and where the witness is not -- well, authenticated,

9 he's -- he says something about it but some of the questions put by

10 Ms. MacGregor, of course, are questions you would expect. And I would

11 have foreseen that rather than to explain that I would rely on what was

12 done in another case.

13 But if you have any further information on it, the Chamber would

14 certainly consider that as well once shared with the Prosecution in its

15 decision on admission or nonadmission.

16 Please proceed.

17 MR. IVETIC: And, again, Your Honours, paragraph 7 of the

18 witness's statement details the taking of this statement. So that

19 is its -- that would be the -- all I can offer at this moment in terms of

20 additional information. If I may proceed, I do have a few other

21 questions --

22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just re-reading paragraph 7 to see whether...

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps -- I may have a different understanding of

25 what details are. Let's proceed -- but Judge Fluegge --

Page 28032

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I just wanted to put a question to the witness.

2 Sir, did you ever meet Senad Memic?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Who stopped him and conducted an interview with

5 him?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police forces of the Ilidza

7 police station and the interview was conducted by members of the national

8 security service.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you give me a name?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know. There are

11 names of people who worked there, but I don't know who specifically

12 drafted the document.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

15 MR. IVETIC:

16 Q. Sir, my last category of questions for you will be to ask if your

17 agency had information about the activities of the BiH MUP in forming the

18 Seve unit?

19 A. Yes, we had information that such a unit had been formed and was

20 operating illegally.

21 Q. Who, according to your information, in the BiH MUP was behind the

22 formation and operation of the Seve unit?

23 A. The AID top officials.

24 Q. The transcript does not reflect the organisation. Could you

25 please spell out the acronyms of the organisation just so that we're

Page 28033

1 clear as to who you are referencing.

2 A. AID.

3 Q. Okay. And you identified that they were operating illegally.

4 What sorts of illegal activities was the Seve unit involved in?

5 A. According to our information they were supposed to incite unrest

6 and destabilise the situation.

7 Q. And do you have any specifics of how they were trying to incite

8 unrest and destabilise the situation?

9 A. There is one case that I mentioned in my statement, how two

10 members of the unit were killed, attempting to cause unrest in

11 Montenegro. They were killed due to unprofessional handling, and then

12 later their service IDs were found on them.

13 Q. Okay. And have I exhausted your recollection of other specifics

14 of the activities of the Seve unit?

15 A. Information came from a number of sections that the unit was

16 operating, and then later the information was confirmed in some newspaper

17 articles as well as by assertions and the recollection of some persons of

18 Muslim ethnicity who were in Sarajevo at the time. A lot of material on

19 this is being published in the most recent period, and you can read

20 information about this in statements that are given to the press by

21 people in Sarajevo.

22 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir, for answering my questions.

23 MR. IVETIC: I have no further questions at this time,

24 Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

Page 28034

1 Mr. Ivetic, before I give an opportunity to the Prosecution to

2 cross-examine the witness, if the statement, the confession, was made

3 after a truckload of -- or at least a truck with a lot of weapons in it

4 was seized, there must be more material, isn't it, that records the --

5 this event, I mean apart from an isolated statement and confession?

6 It's -- certainly it could well assist in determining the authenticity

7 and the background of this document if such an event would have been

8 traced, dates known, how much weaponry. That would give a background to

9 this document which would certainly help, perhaps, in better establishing

10 its authenticity. So it's just a suggestion.

11 And I'm also looking at the Prosecution in this respect. It

12 would assist the Chamber if we would know more about the police action

13 taken which resulted in this document.

14 Ms. MacGregor, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

15 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Your Honour. I am ready. I'm going

16 to bring up my podium. But as I do that, if I can ask the court officer

17 to show the exhibit marked MFI'd as 6889.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And, Mr. Puhalac, you'll be cross-examined by

19 Ms. MacGregor. You find her to your right. Ms. MacGregor is counsel for

20 the Prosecution.

21 Cross-examination by Ms. MacGregor:

22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Puhalac. I've asked the Court to show again a

23 document that Mr. Ivetic asked you about. You recognise the document on

24 the screen in front of you?

25 A. No, I didn't have the opportunity to see the document before. If

Page 28035

1 you're thinking about the earlier period.

2 Q. You were shown this document during your preparation for your

3 testimony today by the Defence counsel; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. Other than counsel showing you this document during that

6 preparation, you've never seen this document before; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that is correct. I did not see it before.

8 Q. You have no personal knowledge about the creation of this

9 document; is that correct?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MS. MacGREGOR: I no longer need the document on the screen.

13 Q. Now just for the record, you testified as a Defence witness in

14 the Karadzic trial in March 2013; is that right?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. And according to your statement, which is now in evidence, you

17 were not a member of any political party during the war but you joined

18 the SDS in 2008; is that right?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. And not only are you a member, but in November 2012 you were

21 elected as a member -- you were elected to the position of president of

22 the Rogatica municipality for the SDS; is that right?

23 A. No, I was not elected as president of the SDS but as the head of

24 the municipality, as a candidate of several parties. Another person was

25 at the head of the SDS. I was just a member of the SDS.

Page 28036

1 Q. What's your current position within the municipality?

2 A. The chief of the or the head of the municipality.

3 Q. And still as a member of the SDS; is that correct?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. Thank you. I want to briefly turn to your time in Sarajevo at

6 the beginning of the war. Now, you left Sarajevo with your family on

7 April 1st, 1992; is that right?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. According to your statement at paragraph 15, for the record,

10 that's Exhibit D758, according to that paragraph after the 1st of April

11 you tried on several occasions to return to your MUP office in Sarajevo.

12 Your statement refers to an incident in Vraca where Serb police were

13 fired on when they tried to enter the school of internal affairs

14 building. So that incident you're describing at Vraca, that occurred on

15 April 4th; is that right?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. In the Karadzic trial you testified:

18 "After what happened on the 4th of April at Vraca, I stopped

19 trying to go back to the BH MUP ..."

20 Sir, is it correct that as of 4 April 1992, you were no longer in

21 Sarajevo but in Sokolac?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And from that date until the end of the war, you were never back

24 in Bosnian-held Sarajevo?

25 A. Correct.

Page 28037

1 Q. And all the evidence that you've provided about events in

2 Sarajevo after the 4th of April is based on information that you received

3 from others; is that right?

4 A. For the period up to April I'm speaking about personal

5 observations, but from April onwards, since I was working in a service

6 that was based in the eastern part of Sarajevo, in the building of the

7 Energoinvest company to be more precise, I am testifying about assertions

8 and information that came from people who were leaving Sarajevo as well

9 as based on other information such as radio communications and so on.

10 MS. MacGREGOR: Can I please have MFI D759.

11 Q. Sir, I'm bringing back to the screen the statement of Mr. Memic

12 that you discussed during your direct examination.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: D759?

14 MS. MacGREGOR: D759 I believe. Yes. The document -- the

15 correct document that I'm referring to is on the screen.

16 Q. Sir, you were not in Sarajevo, as we've just established, on

17 April 14th, 1992; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, correct.

19 Q. And you didn't see Mr. Memic make this statement; is that

20 correct?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. You don't know where he was when he provided this statement; is

23 that correct?

24 A. I assume that it was at the Ilidza police station.

25 Q. And you don't know how long he'd been detained before providing

Page 28038

1 this statement; is that correct?

2 A. From what I can remember, he was not in custody. The interview

3 was conducted in agreement between the Serbian and the Bosniak side.

4 Q. When you testified in the Karadzic trial, you did not include

5 knowledge about the handwritten version of this document, which today you

6 claimed was drafted by Mr. Memic; is that correct?

7 A. I wasn't asked about it. And now I see the handwritten

8 version ...

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last part

10 of what he said.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the last portion of your answer.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have the handwritten

13 version in front of me at the time, and from what I can remember I think

14 that that is that version in handwriting.

15 MS. MacGREGOR:

16 Q. Today in a response to a question from Judge Fluegge, you stated

17 that you didn't know who drafted the document, the handwritten

18 document -- excuse me, that you didn't know who drafted the document,

19 that's at page 14 of the temporary transcript from today. So you don't

20 know who wrote this document? You don't know based on your own personal

21 knowledge who wrote this document; is that correct?

22 A. The statement came to the service where I was via our official

23 department. The official department sent it.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.

25 MR. IVETIC: Counsel's question without the Karadzic transcript

Page 28039

1 misstates the Karadzic proceedings, where as transcript page 35097 the

2 question was asked:

3 "Did you see this version in handwriting at the time?"

4 And the answer was:

5 "Yes."

6 So it's incorrect that he did not demonstrate knowledge of a

7 handwritten version existing in the Karadzic proceedings.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor.

9 MS. MacGREGOR: My question was about who had written the

10 handwritten version.

11 MR. IVETIC: No it was not. It was -- it was --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- well, could you -- exact line number.

13 MR. IVETIC: I'll give you the exact line number. It's page 19,

14 line number 24 through 25:

15 "When you testified in the Karadzic trial, you did not include

16 knowledge of the handwritten version of this document..."

17 MS. MacGREGOR: My apologies, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, yes. And the last part of the question was at

19 least was ambiguous.

20 Mr. Ivetic, thank you for assisting.

21 MS. MacGREGOR:

22 Q. Now, Mr. Witness, as Mr. Ivetic has pointed out, you did testify

23 that you had seen the handwritten version of this statement and you've

24 just told us today that you were not asked about the handwritten version

25 of the statement when you testified in the Karadzic trial. My underlying

Page 28040

1 question is: Do you have personal knowledge about who wrote the

2 handwritten version of the statement?

3 A. Yes, colleagues from Ilidza sent a statement in written form, and

4 I believe that the statement was written by the man with whom the

5 interview was conducted. In practice it was never the case that

6 something would happen different than what I have just said.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor, could I ask you a question which

8 is -- had you seen this -- who brought this document to your attention

9 during the -- when you were interviewed by the Karadzic Defence? Did you

10 bring it yourself? Or did they present it to you? Do you remember?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They presented it to me, from what

12 I can remember.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now -- and you were familiar with that

14 document already when they gave it to you during this interview?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I was.

16 JUDGE ORIE: What's your recollection from when you saw it for

17 the first time? When did you see it for the first time?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When it was drafted, when it came

19 to Pale.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. How did it come to Pale?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By regular mail, regular

22 circulation. We had a section in Ilidza, not just in Ilidza. There were

23 a number of organisational units in the Sarajevo centre area and all the

24 data poured into one point. That's how the service was organised.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And do you have a recollection whether --

Page 28041

1 well, let's say like whether you opened the envelope or whether it was a

2 Sunday? Do you have any recollection about this document, seeing this

3 document for the first time?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document was interesting.

5 That's why I remember. It was notable because of the large quantity of

6 weapons and the way they were obtained. I don't think that I was the one

7 who opened the envelope; that wasn't my job. But we did analyse the

8 document, we reviewed it, so I remember well that it arrived in this

9 form.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What was the follow-up with Mr. Senad Memic?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the interview, as far as I

12 can remember, he went home.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Is --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if a criminal report

15 was issued or not, but this document has to be somewhere in the service.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I ask you was it common that if someone

17 was arrested carrying weapons in a truck telling during an interview that

18 he had by the thousands delivered such weapons that you would just say

19 after the interview: Thank you very much. Please go home, go to your

20 family. That is -- was that common practice or ... ?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it wasn't common practice. But

22 in view of the fact that this was a turbulent, unstable period and that

23 the clashes were just starting, such concessions were made in agreement

24 between the leadership of the sides. So it's my opinion that somebody

25 talked at a higher level or at the top MUP level or at the top political

Page 28042

1 level, and that is why no decision was made to detain the person or hold

2 them further. From what I can remember, probably some important people

3 discussed the issue and the decision was made not to initiate further

4 proceedings as a gesture, as a gesture --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but may I ask you to -- not to tell us what you

6 think may have happened but -- and happily enough you are clear on that.

7 But this Chamber is primarily interested in facts rather than in

8 opinions. But I asked you whether it was common and you say under those

9 circumstances such agreements were made.

10 The reason why I'm asking you this is the following: You would

11 be -- you would like to know to whom these weapons were delivered so as

12 to be able to -- well, to do whatever, to limit the damage caused by it.

13 But that -- such follow-up interviews did not take place? If you know;

14 if you don't know, tell us.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that the man was not held

16 for a long time. He was released. And I know it was a gesture of

17 goodwill to avoid deepening the conflict. Every effort was made to avoid

18 conflict and to try to calm the situation down despite such actions.

19 That's a move made by the Serbian side in order to defuse tensions rather

20 than deepen conflict.

21 JUDGE ORIE: You said he was not detained for a long time. Do

22 you know when he was arrested and even if not for a long time for how

23 long he was detained?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. He was brought into

25 custody, if I remember well, for 24 hours maximum. That was the legal

Page 28043

1 limit at the time. That's before the decision was made to hold somebody.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Now, do you know exactly the day when he was

3 arrested or the date?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. If I hadn't seen the

5 date on the document I wouldn't have been able to remember.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but now having seen the date on the document,

7 do you now remember?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot claim anything with

9 certainty. It would be presumptuous of me to say I remember the date.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor -- or Judge Moloto.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see the time. Maybe we can do this after the

12 break.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I had forgotten about the time when I did put

14 questions to the witness which I should not have forgotten about.

15 We take a break.

16 Witness, would you please follow the usher. We'd like to see you

17 back in 20 minutes.

18 [The witness stands down]

19 JUDGE ORIE: The witness will have missed that information

20 because he had taken his earphones off already but he'll learn about it.

21 We'll take a break and we'll resume at five minutes to 11.00.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

24 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness I'll briefly

25 deal with another matter which is about D676 MFI'd.

Page 28044

1 During the testimony of Branko Davidovic, document D676 was MFI'd

2 pending an updated translation. Both parties have since agreed upon the

3 updated version of the translation which is Doc ID 1D09-3853, and the

4 Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to attach the updated translation

5 to D676 and admits D676 into evidence.

6 [The witness takes the stand]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Fluegge was about to -- Judge Moloto was about

8 to ask a question.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Puhalac, when this confession was sent to your

10 office from Sarajevo, did it come under cover of a covering letter?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you -- did you have sight of that letter?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that was the practice. Not a

14 single document arrived without a letter.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And is it possible to have access to that letter,

16 for the Court to have a look at it?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's possible. It might be

18 in the service. I don't have it.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You were not given this when you were given this

20 document?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Because without that covering letter it's not easy

23 to determine where this letter came -- where this document came from?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

Page 28045

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I'm not saying I know.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not saying you know what?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I know it arrived from where I

4 said, but it should have an accompanying document and it did exist.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, this last answer of yours confuses me. You

6 did say yes there was a covering letter; now you say there should have

7 been one, suggesting that you are assuming that there was one.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there was a cover letter. That

9 was the practice and all the documents arrived with a cover letter.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, again, Mr. Puhalac, you're telling me of

11 practice. I'm asking you if you did see the letter that accompanied this

12 specific document?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you say you don't -- you don't have access to

15 it right now?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I have no further questions.

18 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Can I please have the witness's statement, D758, and if we can

20 look at paragraph 3 of his statement.

21 Q. Mr. Puhalac, I've asked the court officer to show you on the

22 screen the statement, paragraph 3 of your statement. I'd like to draw

23 your attention to the following sentence that starts the paragraph.

24 "Considering that I was a member of the State Security Service

25 for many years and was professionally involved in collecting political

Page 28046

1 and security-related information, I can say that I am competent to give

2 you a quality statement regarding events in the Sarajevo-Romanija area

3 that occurred just before the war and at the beginning of the war."

4 In the next paragraph of your statement, paragraph 4, that's on

5 the next page in the English, and also in paragraphs 7 and 11, which I

6 don't need to be displayed on the screen, you give evidence about

7 trafficking of weapons to Muslim forces in Sarajevo in the pre-war

8 period. And you've talked today about the same topic with regard to

9 Mr. Memic's statement. So you must have also known then, given your

10 position at the time in pre-war Sarajevo, that Serbs in Sarajevo were

11 also being armed in that same period, including by the police. Did you

12 know that?

13 A. No, I didn't know that. At that time I lived in Sarajevo and I'm

14 only talking here about things I knew.

15 MS. MacGREGOR: Can I please have document P3792.

16 Q. I'm calling up a document that you were shown during your

17 Karadzic testimony. It's a report to the Ministry of Internal Affairs by

18 Tihomir Glavas chief of the public security station in Ilidza, and the

19 report is dated 20 September 1993.

20 Now as we wait for that to come up, you're familiar with

21 Mr. Glavas; is that correct? Sir, do you know who Mr. Glavas is?

22 A. I met him during the war. I don't know exactly in which period,

23 but it was when he became commander of the police station at Ilidza.

24 Q. And you're also familiar with Tomo Kovac, commander of the Ilidza

25 police station?

Page 28047

1 A. Tomo Kovac I knew before the war.

2 MS. MacGREGOR: If we can please have page 2 in both versions of

3 the document, focusing on the second full paragraph.

4 Q. So in this paragraph Mr. Glavas discusses meetings organised by

5 Tomislav Kovac in the beginning of 1991. Reading from the document:

6 "Aside from the obligation that Serbs gather up and prepare for

7 war through these meetings that took place in Dobrinja, Ilidza, and

8 Blazuj, it was also agreed that intense activity should be undertaken to

9 arm citizens of Serbian nationality. Armament was transported from Ravna

10 Romanija, Pale, Sokolac, Kalinovik, the village of Nedavici, the village

11 of Tosici, Hadzici, Jusuf Dzonlagic barracks, Lukavica, and Nedzarici" --

12 JUDGE ORIE: I think you've forgotten Trnovo.

13 MS. MacGREGOR:

14 Q. -- "and Trnovo."

15 MS. MacGREGOR: Yes, thank you, Your Honours.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Puhalac, according to your own words you are competent

17 to give a quality statement about events in pre-war Sarajevo, but do you

18 continue to claim that you had no knowledge in 1991 and into 1992 that

19 Serb police were involved in arming ethnic Serbs in Sarajevo?

20 A. This looks absolutely unbelievable to me that in 1991 something

21 like this could have been happening. I think somebody was trying to make

22 themselves look important. I don't know to whom this document was sent,

23 but it looks like bragging.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you were asked whether you have any

25 knowledge about it. You say "no." There's no need to comment on what

Page 28048

1 may have led the author of this document to write what he wrote.

2 Please proceed.

3 MS. MacGREGOR: We can pull the document off the screen.

4 Q. Now, your statement --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one thing --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know anything about

7 this.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You said you couldn't imagine that this happened in

9 1991. Now, the document also describes events happening in 1992,

10 including distribution of arms to Serbian people. Would you be less

11 surprised that the MUP would have been involved in such activities in

12 1992?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The people I knew from the MUP, the

14 professional staff of the MUP, I don't know that they ever armed regular

15 citizens or anyone else.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. You have no knowledge about that.

17 Please proceed.

18 MS. MacGREGOR: If I can please have 65 ter 03838 brought to the

19 screen.

20 Q. Now, sir, you're familiar with Mr. Momcilo Mandic, I assume; is

21 that correct?

22 A. I do.

23 Q. And in March 1992 he held a high position in the MUP; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 28049

1 Q. What you see in front of you is a published interview of

2 Mr. Mandic.

3 MS. MacGREGOR: And if we can please go to the second page in the

4 English and I believe it's -- if we can look in the B/C/S version at the

5 second page too, please. I may need a little help -- third page.

6 Q. It's very difficult to see but are you able to see that in front

7 of you, Mr. Witness?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. Actually --

10 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, if I can have a moment.

11 Because I'm not certain that this is the correct page in the

12 B/C/S, it may be easier if I read from the English unless I can have some

13 input from some of my B/C/S-speaking colleagues. I'm trying to focus

14 here on the end of the first paragraph on the second page in the English,

15 and if you see where it says "in what ways did you help the Serbian

16 side ..." that's the portion I will be asking the witness about.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That is not the page in B/C/S which is on the

18 screen.

19 MS. MacGREGOR: My limited knowledge left me with that same

20 conclusion.

21 Q. Mr. Witness --

22 MR. IVETIC: That should be the next page, the left column, about

23 two-fourths -- three-fourths of the way down the page.

24 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you very much, Mr. Ivetic.

25 And Ms. Stewart has shown me the same portion at the bottom left

Page 28050

1 corner. Thank you for your patience.

2 Q. Mr. Puhalac, if I can draw your attention if you see where it

3 says "in what ways did you help the Serbian side?" Now immediately above

4 that there's the following sentence:

5 "Naturally, I later sided with the Serbs and Serbian movement,

6 helping the Serbian side however I could."

7 And then we see the question:

8 "In what ways did you help the Serbian side?

9 "A. I gave them or put at their disposal official cars, I

10 recruited and admitted to the police force those Serbs proposed by

11 Radovan Karadzic and Rajko Dukic, but I also gave them some material

12 means and communications equipment. We would even deliver weapons to

13 Serbian police stations, for example in Pale, Sokolac, et cetera. We

14 grabbed and shared out as much as was needed."

15 Now, you've testified just now in response to Judge Orie at

16 transcript page 30:

17 "The people I knew from the MUP, the professional staff of the

18 MUP, I don't know that they ever armed regular citizens or anyone else."

19 Now, reading this interview from Mr. Mandic, do you have any

20 further reflections on whether or not you knew that members of the MUP

21 were involved in arming Serbs?

22 A. If the question relates to this text by Mr. Mandic, where he's

23 speaking as a Serbian leader and assistant minister who was in charge of

24 supplies of weapons to the police, supplying equipment to the police, for

25 staffing in the police, he's talking about that here. Of course this

Page 28051

1 relates to the weapons that were at the disposal of the MUP. Maybe he

2 was subjective when he talks about the police station in Sokolac and

3 Pale, but this is what it refers to as I read this document you put

4 before me.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, what you think may be the case or what you

6 assume is what may be the case is not what we are primarily interested

7 in. The question was whether reading this interview, whether you have

8 any further reflection on whether you know or do not know that members of

9 the MUP were involved in arming Serbs. And if I understand your answer

10 well the answer is: No, you still, even having read this, do not know

11 anything about that. Is that -- Mr. Ivetic.

12 MR. IVETIC: [Microphone not activated]

13 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- have we understood you well?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. I did not know.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.

16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I did want to raise a point. We seem

17 to be mixing apples and oranges. The first question was in relation to

18 arming of civilians and then this document was brought up which does not

19 mention the arming of civilians and yet the generic term "Serbs" was

20 identified for this document, which is why I didn't object because the

21 generic reference to "Serbs" could cover Serb police stations.

22 But I wanted to make clear, given Your Honour's follow-up

23 question, that this document in no way relates to the prior question by

24 Ms. MacGregor as to arming of civilians, at least not the section that

25 has been cited thus far.

Page 28052

1 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on.

2 MS. MacGREGOR:

3 Q. One final question about this document in front of you,

4 Mr. Puhalac. If you see the final question on the English version and

5 the last question on the bottom left-hand corner of the B/C/S version:

6 "When did you start supplying the Serb side, i.e., the SDS?

7 "A. That started around the end of 1991 and the beginning of

8 1992 ..."

9 Would you agree that during that period Mr. Mandic was still part

10 of the MUP?

11 A. Yes, he was.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MS. MacGREGOR: I no longer need this document and at this time

14 the Prosecution is not tendering it into evidence.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then you proceed with your next question.

16 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you.

17 Q. Mr. Puhalac, in your statement you mention a 1991 order by MUP

18 minister Alija Delimustafic to mobilise reserve police forces. Now --

19 MS. MacGREGOR: This is at paragraph 8 for the record.

20 Q. Now, in fact at that time ethnic Serbs were also being mobilised,

21 weren't they?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. MacGREGOR: And if we can please see 65 ter 16864. While we

24 wait for the document to come to the screen this is a document entitled:

25 "Instructions," it's dated 21 September, 1991, to the SDS municipal

Page 28053

1 boards, and we see Mr. Karadzic's name at the bottom of the document.

2 Q. It's a short document and I'm going to read it for the record.

3 "Mobilisation of the war time police force is underway. There

4 are speculations that 100 per cent of the forces are being mobilised,

5 although republic organs can mobilise only 50 per cent. Also, there are

6 speculations that only Muslims are being mobilised or that Serbs are not

7 responding to the mobilisation, which would lead to the creation of

8 Muslim police and to circumstances for a civil war.

9 "I request that you keep an eye on what is going on in regard to

10 the above mentioned. Serbs are to respond to the mobilisation of reserve

11 police.

12 "Inform us on the developments."

13 Is this an example of a mobilisation instruction for Serb members

14 of the reserve police?

15 A. I see this document for the first time. I believe it's authentic

16 and that it was written by Mr. Karadzic.

17 MS. MacGREGOR: The Prosecution tenders 16864 into evidence,

18 Your Honours.

19 MR. IVETIC: No objection.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 16864 receives number P6900,

22 Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ORIE: P6900 is admitted.

24 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President. And I no longer need

25 this document.

Page 28054

1 Q. Your evidence is that Sarajevo in the end of April/beginning of

2 May 1992 was filled with Green Berets armed to the teeth taking over

3 police stations. That's at paragraph 13 of your statement for the

4 record. Now, you were not in Sarajevo at that time, as we've discussed;

5 is that correct?

6 A. Yes, from 1 April I was not in Sarajevo.

7 Q. And so you must have received this information from interviews of

8 Serbs leaving Sarajevo and other sources; is that right?

9 A. Which event do you mean?

10 Q. Sarajevo was filled with Green Berets armed to the teeth taking

11 over police stations. Did you hear about that from sources that you

12 interviewed and other sources?

13 A. Well, that there were Green Berets around town and that they were

14 armed was obvious to every person in Sarajevo, and I also met them

15 personally at barricades and around the town with the same units.

16 MS. MacGREGOR: If we can see paragraph 13 of D758.

17 Q. Sir, the paragraph I'm talking about specifically refers to the

18 end of April/beginning of May when you weren't there. I'm simply trying

19 to determine where you received the information about that time-period,

20 the information about Green Berets. You can see this statement yourself,

21 paragraph 13 of your statement. From whom did you receive that

22 information?

23 A. The information that Pero Petrovic, a policeman, was killed and

24 that the station was taken over by paramilitary units I received from

25 Lazar Bojanic, a man who survived by chance because he was unconscious,

Page 28055

1 they thought him dead. When he left Sarajevo he testified about this.

2 That Juka Prazina took over the police hall next to the police station

3 which was, until then, an institution of the professional police was

4 carried by the media and masses of people who lived in Sarajevo and

5 finally it was shown on Sarajevo TV.

6 Q. Did you also collect information about successful Serb operations

7 in Sarajevo in the time-period of end of April/beginning of May?

8 A. Successful Serb operations? Which ones? I don't understand the

9 question.

10 Q. Operations carried out by Serb forces in Sarajevo in the

11 time-period of end of April/beginning of May, did you hear about that?

12 A. Well, we gathered information on all security aspects. Maybe if

13 you asked me a more specific question I could answer. I don't know

14 exactly what you mean.

15 MS. MacGREGOR: If I can please have Exhibit 6605.

16 Q. Sir, this is a published copy of an interview by Miovan Bjelica,

17 president of the Executive Board of the SDS of Sokolac.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that a P exhibit?

19 MS. MacGREGOR: P.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

21 MS. MacGREGOR: And the B/C/S version is one page and if we can

22 have page 3 in the English.

23 Q. In this interview Mr. Bjelica is asked:

24 "How did you arm the people?"

25 He answers:

Page 28056

1 "Serbian Democratic Party organised all activities related to

2 preparation and organising of people for defence. Since we realised that

3 there had been a great betrayal in the army in former JNA, we had to go

4 to military depots which we assumed would not be in our possession and

5 take weapons from them. The SDS activist played an important role here.

6 First we took the equipment and weapons from western Herzegovina, from

7 Gabela which we brought to Romanija. Then we took the equipment from

8 Central Bosnia from Visoko, from Sarajevo municipalities which were not

9 under our control, and our greatest success was taking the equipment and

10 weapons from Faletic."

11 Mr. Puhalac, Faletici is a weapons depot for Sarajevo; is that

12 right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And Mr. Bjelica continues in response to the next question:

15 "We stole it from their hands. We agreed with then-minister of

16 defence and with a man from security of then Sarajevo Corps."

17 And the next paragraph describes the operation.

18 "We did it by night in April 1992. There was a group of young

19 men, activists of SDS which I was leading ... the first night took whole

20 of artillery and weapons." And I have skipped one portion as I am

21 reading it.

22 "There was about 300 artillery tubes, from 35 to 50.000 rifles as

23 well as other equipment." Skipping again.

24 "Severe attacks on the barracks followed. We were helped by the

25 unit of Colonel Dragoljub Milosevic, i.e., 1st Romanija Brigade, which

Page 28057

1 helped us on the second day ..."

2 MS. MacGREGOR: If we can scroll down a bit in the English

3 version.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I think you have to move to the next page.

5 MS. MacGREGOR: Yeah, sorry. If we can move to the second page.

6 Q. "... which helped us on the second day while we were pulling out

7 weapons and equipment. We brought all weapons and equipment to the

8 territory of Romanija in three days."

9 First of all, is that in fact a reference to Dragomir Milosevic

10 that I've just read?

11 A. Are you asking me if that's Dragomir Milosevic?

12 Q. Yes, would that be your understanding if you read that?

13 A. Well, I don't know who Mr. Bjelica meant, but if you really want

14 my opinion I believe, yes, that he is thinking of him.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps the factual question is: Witness, do you

16 know any colonel by the name Dragoljub Milosevic or do you not?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragoljub, no.

18 JUDGE ORIE: And Dragomir?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I met Dragomir Milosevic at the

20 Lukavica barracks. I cannot remember when, but as far as I know he --

21 there was -- and that was Colonel Milosevic. But it's Dragomir according

22 to my best recollection, not Dragoljub.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.

24 MS. MacGREGOR:

25 Q. So in addition to attacks by Green Berets that you mention in

Page 28058

1 Sarajevo at this time, there were also SDS forces assisted by the JNA

2 lodging attacks in Sarajevo; is that correct?

3 MR. IVETIC: I object to the form of the question where it says

4 assisted by the JNA. The document actually says there was a betrayal on

5 the part of the JNA. The assistance is listed as a minister of defence

6 and with a man from the security organ of the Sarajevo Corps.

7 JUDGE ORIE: One second.

8 Ms. MacGregor you said assisted by the JNA. You relied on what

9 part exactly of this document?

10 MS. MacGREGOR: I'm relying on evidence that's been heard by the

11 Chamber, not specifically to this document --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

13 MS. MacGREGOR: -- but to this witness I can withdraw the

14 reference to the JNA to keep it simple.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then please put your question again to the

16 witness in the way you would like to do now.

17 MS. MacGREGOR: Sure. Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. In the period of late April/early May, were you aware that SDS

19 forces were successfully lodging attacks in Sarajevo?

20 A. This is about relocating the Faletici barracks or the weapons

21 depot. I know that the weapons were transferred out of Faletici because

22 the barracks were blockaded and that there was some minor conflicts or

23 clashes that broke out in Faletici. So this is the specific information

24 that I have about that. As for who actually made the transfer, who took

25 part in that, I don't know that, but I do know that the weapons were

Page 28059

1 moved because there was a struggle about who will actually take

2 possession of the weapons, whether it would be the Serb forces or other

3 forces, and I know that the weapons were moved from Faletici. It was an

4 official military weapons depot.

5 Q. Moving away from this document and we can remove it from the

6 screen, Mr. Puhalac, my question is about your knowledge -- not from this

7 document, your knowledge based on sources that you talked to, colleagues

8 that you spoke to, your knowledge about the conditions in Sarajevo in

9 late April/beginning of May 1992. Now, were you aware that during that

10 time-period Serb forces - and I'm referring to the Serb TO, the MUP, the

11 Serb-controlled JNA - that they effected a siege of Sarajevo during that

12 time-period. My question is just: Were you aware of that?

13 A. The barricades were erected on both sides. The ring around

14 Sarajevo was closed by the forces from Sarajevo which set up their own

15 check-points and then the Serb side also placed its check-points facing

16 those. So you could say that Sarajevo was blocked and that check-points

17 were set up by both of the sides, the check-points faced each other. In

18 such a situation where one side was in fear of the other and both feared

19 that clashes would break out, the check-points were set up by each of the

20 sides. That's the truth.

21 MS. MacGREGOR: I have no further questions, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. MacGregor.

23 Mr. Ivetic.

24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have no questions for the witness.

25 I would only thank him again for answering my previous questions.

Page 28062

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have -- of course we have no idea what

2 happened in the Karadzic case.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon -- no, good morning still, Mr. Komad.

5 Well, the Judges will finalise their struggle on whether 20 minutes to

6 12.00 is morning or afternoon soon --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Komad. Before you give evidence

9 the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. The text is now

10 handed out to you and I'd like to invite you to make that solemn

11 declaration.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 WITNESS: TRIFKO KOMAD

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Komad. Mr. Komad,

17 you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic. You'll find him to your

18 left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

19 Please proceed.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. I would like to ask you to slowly say your correct first and last

25 name for the transcript.

Page 28063

1 A. My name is Trifko Komad.

2 Q. Mr. Trifko, did you at one point provide a statement to the

3 Defence of Radovan Karadzic, a written statement?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

6 look at document 65 ter 1D016 -- 1D04474.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could all extra microphones be switched off,

8 please.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we understand whether these are two or one

10 document, 1D016 and then 1D04474?

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, there is a supplement to

12 the statement that the witness gave to General Mladic's Defence and that

13 is 1D01652.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's now a third document you are mentioning,

15 Mr. Stojanovic. You mentioned 1D016 and then 1D044 -- 474. Now you

16 didn't -- been mentioning 1D01652.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I corrected

18 myself because I asked for 1D04474. There is no document that begins

19 with 06, there is no 1D016, and I corrected myself and gave the correct

20 number.

21 Q. Mr. Komad, in front of you you can see the statement. I would

22 now like us to look at the last page of the document.

23 A. Yes, I see it.

24 Q. And now can you look at the last page of the document. Does

25 it -- does this page show a handwritten date and a signature and were

Page 28064

1 these put there by you in your hand?

2 A. Yes, that is my signature and my handwriting.

3 Q. Thank you. When we went through the document while we were

4 preparing for your testimony before this Tribunal and today when you gave

5 the solemn declaration, would you still stand by the answers that you

6 gave then to the questions by the Radovan Karadzic Defence?

7 A. Yes, I stand by what I said to them.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

10 tender document 65 ter 1D04474.

11 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.

12 Madam Registrar.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D4474 receives number D760,

14 Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Q. Mr. Trifko, did you also at one point in time provide a statement

18 to the Mladic Defence, replying to questions that were put to you about

19 your knowledge about specific events that you were asked about?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at 65 ter

23 document 1D01652 in e-court, please.

24 Q. Mr. Trifko, is your signature also on this document that we see

25 now?

Page 28065

1 A. Yes, that is my signature.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at the last

4 page of the document.

5 Q. Is the signature and the handwritten date on this page also

6 yours?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. While preparing for your testimony, did you tell us

9 that you believed that it would be necessary to supplement your statement

10 with a few words in order for it to be more complete and more clear?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

13 look at paragraph 3 of the witness statement, that is 65 ter number

14 1D01652, paragraph 3.

15 Q. Mr. Trifko, did you feel that it was necessary to add a word in

16 the second sentence of this paragraph after the word "upraising the

17 consciousness of the Serbian people"?

18 A. Yes, I wanted us to add the word "spiritual consciousness."

19 Q. Thank you. And would the text of this sentence then read:

20 "The Serbian -- the Serb religious community as well as the

21 development of national consciousness of the Serb people were completely

22 neglected ..." and so on and so forth.

23 So would that be the correct sentence now?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In paragraph 4 of this statement you indicated --

Page 28066

1 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, what you just read,

2 Mr. Stojanovic, is without the word "spiritual," and I thought that

3 that's what is exactly the word the witness wanted to add, isn't it, or

4 am I mistaken?

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, the witness

6 wanted to add the word spiritual, consciousness of the Serb people.

7 JUDGE ORIE: If you would have left it to that then there would

8 have been no confusion. But then you started reading the line as it

9 reads now which was already perfectly clear. And then you left out -- at

10 least in the English translation the word "spiritual" was left out. So

11 it is now in again. Please proceed.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. In paragraph 4, Mr. Trifko, did you say that the title of the

14 faculty, that is the last line of paragraph 4, the word "Islamic

15 theological faculty in all of Europe" should be added?

16 A. Yes, that was my remark, that it was necessary to add after the

17 word "Islamic" the theological -- so that we know that we're talking

18 about the faculty of theology.

19 Q. Thank you. And in paragraph 5 did you point out that in line 7

20 of the English version and the sixth line of the B/C/S version instead of

21 the word "to 2000" the word should be "until 1992," that would be the

22 correct year; right?

23 A. Yes, that was my correction.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at paragraph

Page 28067

1 17, please.

2 Q. Line 1 in both the B/C/S and the English version you told us that

3 it would be clearer if after the word "the beginning of April" the year

4 "1992" was added?

5 A. Yes. That is also what I wanted to add so that we would know

6 which year that referred to.

7 Q. Thank you. And so to finish with this we'll move on to paragraph

8 18, last line. Did you tell us that you believed that a clarification

9 was necessary by adding the word "and secretary of the Executive Board of

10 the SDS," adding the words "SDS" here?

11 A. Yes, I asked for that to be added so that it would be clear

12 exactly the secretary of what body that was.

13 Q. All right. Thank you. Now that we have made these

14 clarifications to your statement I would like to ask you this: Now after

15 you have given the solemn declaration, would you give the same answers to

16 the questions that were put to you then?

17 A. Yes, I would stand by what I said to the General Mladic Defence.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

20 tender the following exhibit and that is the statement bearing the

21 65 ter number 1D01652.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, in your written response it says that

23 you do not oppose admission of the statement, not statements.

24 MS. BIBLES: That's correct, Your Honour. And it was reflective,

25 I think, the language of the original motion. But we don't oppose either

Page 28068

1 of the statements, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1652 receives number D761,

4 Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence, while the original motion

6 states -- refers to annex A and annex B and seeks leave to present the

7 evidence not a statement.

8 Please -- I'm looking at the clock, Mr. Stojanovic. It's time

9 for a break.

10 Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes and we would like to

11 see you back at quarter past 12.00. You may follow the usher.

12 Mr. Stojanovic, could you tell us how much time you think you

13 would still need?

14 [The witness stands down]

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going to read

16 the summary and then after that I just have two very brief questions for

17 the witness.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll take a break and we'll resume at quarter

19 past 12.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.21 p.m.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Apologies for the late start.

23 Mr. Stojanovic, you are about to start reading the summary.

24 Well, I think it's better to wait for the witness to enter the courtroom.

25 Although we don't need him for your reading the summary, but I think it's

Page 28069

1 more convenient for him to be able to listen to it.

2 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I will take this moment to let you know

3 that we have no objection to the redacted document 1D0450 -- excuse me,

4 1D04058a, the proposed redacted version of the Maksimovic statement.

5 There is no objection

6 [The witness takes the stand]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Then the registrar is instructed to replace

8 1D4058 -- I'm afraid I -- yes with 1D4058a. And D686 is admitted into

9 evidence.

10 Mr. Stojanovic.

11 Witness, Mr. Stojanovic will now read a summary of your evidence

12 so that at least the public knows what is in your statement because later

13 they'll be able to follow the questions put to you in relation to that

14 statement.

15 Mr. Stojanovic.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Witness Trifko Komad is a professor of sociology by training and

18 until the outbreak of the war he lived and worked in Sarajevo occupying a

19 number of jobs such as secretary of the motorists' association of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and from 1986 he was in the republic conference of

21 the socialist alliance of BH dealing with affairs of national defence and

22 religious issues.

23 He talks about the gathering and association of Serbian

24 intellectuals in the end of the 1980S and the emergence of the need for

25 political organisation of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina

Page 28070

1 because it was clear by that time that the remaining two constituent

2 peoples in BH had already through political parties SDA and HDZ developed

3 their own method of political work in a multi-party setting.

4 He got involved in organisational and technical work preparing

5 the programme of the new party, and after the founding Assembly of the

6 SDS in July 1990 he became a member of the Main Board and later of the

7 Executive Council of the Main Board of the SDS, and thereby member of the

8 Political Council of the SDS. And finally, secretary of the

9 Executive Council of the Main Board of the SDS.

10 He testifies to the interrelations within the SDS, the role of

11 Radovan Karadzic in the political life of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the

12 intentions and goals of the Serbian people in overcoming political and

13 international tensions, as well as sectarian occurrences in the party,

14 illustrating all this by comments on a number of intercepts involving

15 Radovan Karadzic and himself.

16 He emphasises his knowledge about documents containing Variants A

17 and B relating to the organisation of authorities in municipalities

18 throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina and the reasons for the establishment of

19 Crisis Staffs in municipalities and their role and tasks.

20 He got out of Sarajevo on 6 April 1992, leaving behind in the

21 city his parents who met their end there as a result of mistreatment and

22 persecution, whereas his sister remain a permanent invalid. Later on he

23 assumes responsibilities to organise and escort the movement of

24 humanitarian convoys towards the territory of the Federation of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina until the end of 1992 when he began to work in the

Page 28071

1 bureau of the RS government in Belgrade.

2 In the supplement to his statement which he gave to the Defence

3 team of General Mladic, he speaks in greater detail on the position of

4 the Serbian people, the Serbian religious community, and the attempts to

5 wipe out Serbian spiritual heritage in Bosnia-Herzegovina before the

6 outbreak of the war. He has indirect knowledge about the state of

7 interethnic relations in Foca before the war and states that he had had

8 opportunity to meet with General Mladic several times and gain an

9 impression on his positions and the position of the VRS with regard to

10 the activity of paramilitary units.

11 This is all, Your Honours. At this moment I should like to

12 tender this statement but also the associated documents, and I believe we

13 have an agreement with the Prosecution who have no objections. I would

14 now take the liberty of reading out all these four exhibits as I tender

15 them.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Which statement do you want to tender? I think you

17 tendered two statements. They have both been admitted, so I'm wondering

18 what remains as far as statements are concerned.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the statement that

20 is now marked D760 mentions in four paragraphs intercepts commented on by

21 the witness, and I would be so free as to tender these intercepts as

22 well.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the only thing remaining from what I

24 understand. These are associated exhibits. If you name them one by

25 one -- no speaking aloud, no speaking aloud, Mr. Mladic. You know the

Page 28072

1 rules.

2 Let's try to -- I have the numbers here. The first one is

3 RM 65 ter 1D04475. There are no objections. None of them, Ms. Bibles?

4 MS. BIBLES: No.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: 1D4475 receives number D762, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: 1D04476 receives number?

8 THE REGISTRAR: D763, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ORIE: 1D04477?

10 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number D764, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ORIE: 1D04478?

12 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number D765, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE ORIE: D762 up to and including D765 are admitted into

14 evidence.

15 Please proceed.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Could we now call up in e-court D761, paragraph 20.

18 Q. Mr. Komad, you say here that you had occasion to meet with

19 General Mladic, and I would kindly ask you to tell the Court in greater

20 detail to the best of your recollection when that was and when -- where

21 did these meetings take place?

22 A. The first time I met General Mladic was in Pale in May 1992, when

23 General Mladic arrived by helicopter from Knin, I believe, or somewhere.

24 He arrived at Pale and his helicopter landed near the resort called

25 Kikinda where the Serbian leadership stayed at that time. This was, I

Page 28073

1 believe, the first meeting of the republican leadership with

2 General Mladic, and at that meeting they discussed the principles and the

3 way the Serbian people would organise their defence. I was not the main

4 person there. I was just attending and it was mainly General Mladic and

5 Mr. Karadzic who spoke.

6 Q. Do you remember your second meeting?

7 A. It was in July 1993 when a group of Serbs from the United States

8 arrived carrying humanitarian aid. They applied to the bureau in

9 Belgrade where I was then working and I was that group's escort. We were

10 supposed to turn over that humanitarian aid to the Main Staff at

11 Han Pijesak, and the second part of the humanitarian aid was delivered to

12 Pale to the political leadership. I was at that time one of the people

13 who were responsible for delivering the aid. The weather was bad, if I

14 remember well. General Mladic arrived from Mount Treskavica, again by

15 helicopter, and we spent that day together with those people from the US.

16 Most of them were representatives of the Serbian Orthodox church from

17 Chicago. General Mladic wanted to receive those people, to thank them

18 personally, and that's what he did.

19 And my third meeting with him was in Belgrade. It was very

20 brief. We saw each other only in passing. I was working at the bureau,

21 he came upstairs, we just exchanged greetings and that was it. Those

22 were all my encounters with General Mladic.

23 Q. Can you remember that meeting in Belgrade, when was it?

24 A. I can't remember exactly. I can't remember the exact time. I

25 would make a mistake.

Page 28074

1 Q. And I will finish with one more question. Paragraph 9, if we

2 could look at it.

3 Mr. Komad, in this paragraph you discussed the attitude towards

4 the Serbian Orthodox clergy, mentioning some examples. Could you please

5 tell the Court if you heard any first-hand or indirect knowledge about

6 what happened to Serbian Orthodox churches during those years in the

7 territory controlled by the BH Federation?

8 A. In my statement I focused quite a lot on the spiritual condition

9 of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina before the war. I pointed

10 out a number of facts that speak about the neglect of Serb religious

11 communities and even attempts to wipe it out. I illustrated it with a

12 number of facts in my written statement, but I would also like to add

13 that this process of discrimination and these attempts to wipe out this

14 community was described by Mr. Ala Ukovic [phoen] in his book "Spiritual

15 Genocide." He relates precise information as to how it happened in

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I will mention just a few. The fact is that the war

17 continued this aggressive, discriminating treatment of Serb churches and

18 the Serb religious community in Bosnia-Herzegovina. If I may only just

19 say that according to information from that book, 170 churches and

20 monasteries were destroyed --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- also 116 were damaged --

23 JUDGE ORIE: If an expert has written on this in books, then the

24 Defence has an opportunity to call such an expert, but we are interested

25 in your personal knowledge not in what you read in books written by

Page 28075

1 others. So we leave it to that. I didn't stop you right away because --

2 but it comes down to opinion and perhaps even expert evidence which is

3 supposed not to be given by a witness of fact.

4 Mr. Stojanovic, this was your last question? Yes.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 I thank Mr. Komad and conclude. We turn him over to the

7 Prosecution.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Komad, you'll now be cross-examined by

9 Ms. Bibles. You'll find her to your right. Ms. Bibles is counsel for

10 the Prosecution.

11 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Cross-examination by Ms. Bibles:

13 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

14 A. Good afternoon.

15 Q. I'd like to start by clarifying where in your statements and

16 where in the events you might have direct knowledge. I'd first like to

17 look at D761, paragraphs 15 through 17, which discuss several things

18 including Foca. My question for you, sir, is: Were you in Foca at all

19 from April through December of 1992?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do I understand correctly then that none of your evidence about

22 Foca comes from your direct observation of the events in Foca themselves?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Thank you. And you've testified, I believe, at temporary

25 transcript 54 as well as in paragraph 20 of D761 about a meeting in Pale

Page 28076

1 at the Hotel Kikinda. Were you present for all of the meeting?

2 A. Not all of the meeting, no. Not all of the meeting, but for most

3 of it, yes.

4 Q. Were you there when Tintor was describing what should happen to

5 mixed-marriage couples?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Turning now to your other statement, to D760 at paragraph 29.

8 You indicate that you left Bosnia and Herzegovina in late 1992 or early

9 1993 for Belgrade. Could you be more specific as to your dates?

10 A. I think it was January 1993, but if I just may say this: I would

11 come and go. I would go to Belgrade and return to Pale. I wasn't --

12 either in Belgrade or in Pale on a permanent basis. I mean, you could

13 say that I was moving back and forth. My task was to form a bureau in

14 Belgrade, then I would return to Pale. It was difficult. The phone

15 lines were not reliable, so I had to return to Pale for many of the

16 things that I needed to do. So I don't know if I've been clear enough.

17 I would go back and forth.

18 Q. That answers my question. Now, while you were in Belgrade for

19 the years remaining in the war, which organs of the Serbian government

20 did you work with?

21 A. Mostly with the main leadership, practically with everybody but

22 mostly with the organs of power from the Assembly, other organs, and

23 better said that it was work with the civilian organs rather than the

24 military organs.

25 Q. All right. Thank you. Now --

Page 28077

1 A. If you need me to clarify, I can do that. I dealt with

2 humanitarian assistance, protection of refugees, the wounded. So there

3 were contacts with the military organs regarding the care for the

4 wounded.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to be clear, these were Serbian civilian

6 organisations of Serbia, not of the RS?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Republika Srpska and then

8 sometimes with the organs of Serbia if needed, both of them, because that

9 was the function of the bureau, to be a link in all the co-operation and

10 the assistance that was required.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.

12 Madam Bibles.

13 MS. BIBLES:

14 Q. And because it's not particularly clear, could you describe the

15 name of the bureau that you worked for starting in 1993 throughout the

16 war?

17 A. The name was the Bureau of Republika Srpska. It was an organ of

18 Republika Srpska. In the beginning it was conceived in such a way and

19 then later it would have the form of it being an organ, a bureau of the

20 government of Republika Srpska. It exists today, but now it's called the

21 Representative Offices of Republika Srpska. Sometime after the war it

22 changed its name. During the war the name was the Bureau of

23 Republika Srpska.

24 Q. All right. And when you needed to go, let's say, up the chain of

25 command, did you report to or give requests to Momcilo Mandic?

Page 28078

1 A. Momcilo was the director of the Bureau of Republika Srpska for a

2 time -- actually, it was during the time that I was working there.

3 Q. Thank you. We'll shift topics now.

4 MS. BIBLES: If we could have 65 ter 31576 on our screen.

5 Q. Sir, in your statement D760 in paragraph 30 you challenge some of

6 the adjudicated facts before the Mladic court.

7 MS. BIBLES: And, Your Honours, although we discussed it before

8 court and I believe there was an e-mail, we should clarify that in D760

9 in paragraph 30 where there is a reference to the adjudicated fact 1946,

10 that's actually in the Karadzic case. The parallel adjudicated fact

11 would be 79 in this case --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well --

13 MS. BIBLES: Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: -- Ms. Bibles, I was --

15 MS. BIBLES: I'm sorry.

16 JUDGE ORIE: -- surprised that the Defence without any further

17 explanation presents to us comments on adjudicated facts in another case

18 which I'm not aware of. So I have not discussed the matter with my

19 colleagues yet, but I thought let's just ignore it if this is the way in

20 which it is presented.

21 Mr. Stojanovic, I do not know what you expect the Chamber to do

22 with adjudicated facts in another case and comment on it. We've got no

23 idea.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, according to what

25 we did while preparing for the testimony of this witness, the adjudicated

Page 28079

1 fact from the Karadzic case is identical to the adjudicated fact from

2 this case number 79, 79 in our case. It's an identical passage. And we

3 did inform the Trial Chamber and the Prosecutor about this.

4 JUDGE ORIE: When did you inform us about that? I may have

5 missed it, in which case I'm -- oh, this morning. Let's have a look.

6 Let me just have a look.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber staff received an e-mail this morning

8 at 8.53 from the Defence.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. If that -- I have not read that yet,

10 but if that explains the matter. But it would be wise to refer to these

11 matters in court, but I have to correct myself that you had not given

12 notice, although very late and in a way which is not the most appropriate

13 one. I leave it to that at this moment.

14 Then could we have the text of the two adjudicated facts to see

15 whether they are exactly the same or whether they are not exactly the

16 same. Similar is not good enough, Mr. Stojanovic. Do you have the text

17 of the -- could you read them, the two, into the transcript, the Karadzic

18 one and then the Mladic one. Do you have them ?

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Could you read to start with the Karadzic

21 one, that we have it on the record.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] On the 21st of November, 1991,

23 the Assembly of Bosnian Serbs proclaimed as part of the territory of the

24 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia all those municipalities or communities

25 and settlements where the majority of registered citizens were of Serb

Page 28080

1 ethnicity and they opted to remain in Yugoslavia.

2 According to the comparison that we made, adjudicated fact number

3 79 in this case corresponds to the text that I have just read out.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Is it literally the same or -- could you read out

5 the text of adjudicated fact in this case 79.

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note we do not have the

7 original in English or B/C/S.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as you know, my

9 knowledge of English is not sufficient for me to be able to read it, but

10 this morning I asked my colleagues to make this comparison and they

11 informed me that the text in English is identical.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I'll check that myself at this moment and you

13 may -- Ms. Bibles can continue meanwhile.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before she does, I think, Mr. Stojanovic, it would

15 be very helpful where you have a number for an adjudicated fact in this

16 trial and in another trial to rather use in the statement the

17 adjudicated -- the number in this trial, then we wouldn't be having this

18 whole discussion of comparing adjudicated facts. It would save us more

19 time then if you could refer to the fact -- the adjudicated fact of this

20 trial.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's number 79 in our case, as Mr. Stojanovic

22 indicated earlier.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The statement was from the

24 Karadzic case and so we felt that in the technical sense this would be

25 the best way to notify you of this matter, in view of the fact that the

Page 28081

1 paragraphs are in the Karadzic statement, from the Karadzic case. I

2 thank you for your understanding.

3 MS. BIBLES: Thank you.

4 Q. Sir, we have heard the description of adjudicated fact 79 in this

5 case. And in front of you, sir, on the screen is a decision taken the

6 session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly on 21 November 1991, which states in

7 its first paragraph: The territories of municipalities, local

8 communities, and populated places in which more than 50 per cent of the

9 Serbian electorate voted for the same joint state ... and then we see the

10 last portion of that paragraph which says:

11 " ... shall be considered the territory of the federal state of

12 Yugoslavia."

13 Now, sir, you've challenged this adjudicated fact in this trial,

14 but I would point out to you that with some insignificant differences

15 this decision is reflected accurately in the text of the adjudicated

16 fact; isn't that correct?

17 A. Look, I wasn't part of the Assembly organs. I wasn't a deputy or

18 held any other function in the municipal -- in the Assembly organs.

19 Therefore, this decision by the Assembly is something that I was informed

20 about. But I'm not sure what you are asking me.

21 Q. Sir, isn't it true that the adjudicated fact which we've heard

22 read out is accurately reflected by the decision of the Bosnian Serb

23 Assembly on the 21st of November, 1991; that's accurate, isn't it?

24 A. It is correct that this is the original text, yes.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 28082

1 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, I tender 31576.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31576 receives number P6901,

4 Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I should not have admitted it yet without it

6 being assigned a number. P6901 is admitted.

7 Witness, the issue is that the adjudicated fact says: This is

8 what the Assembly proclaimed. Now, whether that was right or wrong is

9 another matter, but you said that the adjudicated fact is wrong. The

10 adjudicated fact simply said what the Assembly claimed. Therefore, in

11 that respect, it seems to be a perfect adjudicated fact because it is

12 literally the same as what the decision tells us. So that's not very

13 smart to do it that way, but also not -- I do not understand, even with

14 the explanation of Mr. Stojanovic, how we should understand this.

15 Because Ms. Bibles has -- and you agree with her, that this is what the

16 decision says. How could you then say that it's not what the Assembly

17 claimed?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where did I say that?

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: In your statement.

20 JUDGE ORIE: In your statement. You say that the adjudicated

21 fact is not correct, but let's have a look. It's the last paragraph in

22 your Karadzic statement I think.

23 MS. BIBLES: Paragraph 30, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: 30, yes.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the second paragraph of paragraph 30.

Page 28083

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that it

3 would be fair to the witness to show him the paragraph from the Karadzic

4 judgement so that he could look at that.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: No --

6 JUDGE ORIE: That's totally irrelevant to -- well --

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There's no judgement yet, but I think you

8 misspoke or the interpreters did misspeak. It should be D758 -- sorry,

9 D760.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You said at the last paragraph:

11 "I can state the following: These adjudicated facts are

12 incorrect ..."

13 That's what you said. And the first one was just read to you,

14 that is what the Assembly proclaimed. And your explanation is -- has got

15 nothing to do with it being an accurate reflection of what the Assembly

16 proclaimed.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please the next page in English.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There it is.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not recall giving a statement

21 that the adjudicated facts were incorrect. All I did was confirm in my

22 statement that the local commune was the basic sociopolitical unit and

23 that it was possible that the locally communes as basic sociopolitical

24 units exist and that's part of what I said in the Karadzic case. I'm not

25 sure that I said that the adjudicated fact is incorrect.

Page 28084

1 JUDGE ORIE: But you attested to this statement this very

2 morning, Witness?

3 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

4 JUDGE ORIE: You were asked by Mr. Stojanovic whether you

5 reviewed them and whether you would give the same answers and whether it

6 was all accurate. When did you read it for the last time this statement.

7 A. This statement, I read it when came here to The Hague.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, yes, and your statement clearly says what your

9 testimony is, isn't it? Okay, but you attested to it this morning so if

10 you don't remember then you must not perhaps have read it very carefully

11 before entering this courtroom. We'll leave it to that.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But, Witness, do you see this text on the

13 left-hand side of the screen in front of you. The long paragraph, the

14 last paragraph on that page, first line. This is your statement in the

15 Karadzic case.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And it says: "These adjudicated facts are

18 incorrect." Am I right?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's written.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And you attested to it this morning.

21 Let's proceed.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 MS. BIBLES:

24 Q. Sir, I'd next like to shift attention towards D761 which is your

25 Mladic statement in which in paragraph 19 you say with respect to

Page 28085

1 convoys:

2 "It would happen that local bosses would commandeer all or parts

3 of the humanitarian aid for their own needs which was explained away by

4 saying that the people and troops did not have enough for their own

5 needs. The Serbs' political leadership analysed this and concluded that

6 such vigilanteism could no longer be tolerated and instead they created

7 an organisational structure which would allow convoys and humanitarian

8 aid to pass through, and I was tasked by the political leadership with

9 co-ordinating this for some time in 1992."

10 On what date did you stop co-ordinating the humanitarian aid for

11 the RS political leadership?

12 A. [No interpretation]

13 MS. BIBLES: I didn't receive interpretation.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Neither did we.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the end of 1992 when I left for

16 Belgrade.

17 MS. BIBLES: If we could have P6770 on our screens, please. This

18 is under seal and should not be broadcast. But the body of the text

19 itself is not protected so we may remain in open session for this.

20 Q. Sir, on your screen you'll see that this is an Official Note

21 regarding the British humanitarian aid convoy from an organisation called

22 the -- or Serious Road Trip, and it involves it being stopped at the

23 Mostar check-point. At the top we see it's dated 20 October 1992. This

24 Official Note is addressed to the Ilidza war department, national

25 security service, Ministry of the Interior RS, and it explains that

Page 28086

1 medical equipment was confiscated because the crew did not have the right

2 documentation. In the third paragraph the author of the document states:

3 "The instruments were confiscated and immediately handed over to

4 the Zica hospital in Blazuj ..."

5 He also states:

6 "The instruments in question were ones that were vital to our

7 hospital ..."

8 Now, sir, under your watch over these convoys, was it the policy

9 to take items from a convoy rather than sending the convoy and its

10 property back?

11 A. The policy was to escort the convoy to its destination, not to

12 confiscate anything, to take it to the destination; specifically, I

13 escorted a convoy that was going to Sarajevo and in Sarajevo I turned

14 over the truck filled with goods intended for Sarajevo, the same in

15 Gorazde when it was under the rule of Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities.

16 Q. Sir, you're certainly not talking about the convoy that is

17 described in this document from the 20th of October, are you?

18 A. No --

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: He's talking about policy, not what happened on

20 the ground.

21 MS. BIBLES:

22 Q. Sir --

23 A. Yes, right.

24 Q. -- let's take a look at another document with respect to another

25 convoy.

Page 28087

1 MS. BIBLES: If we could have P6771 and again this is under seal

2 and should not be broadcast, but the body, the text, is not sensitive so

3 we can remain in open session.

4 Q. Sir, as this document comes up you'll see that it is another

5 Official Note regarding the same British humanitarian aid convoy from

6 Serious Road Trip. This one, however, is dated 17 December 1992 and it's

7 referring to events on the 16th of December, 1992. Again, we see that

8 it's addressed to the Ilidza war department, and I will take you to the

9 first paragraph of the first page about halfway down to the sentence

10 beginning:

11 "They brought in paperwork ..."

12 "They brought in paperwork on the convoy which is in order and so

13 received permission for the passage but that they were to leave behind

14 one-third of the cargo at Ilidza which they consented to with great

15 difficulty."

16 So, sir, what we see in practice, at least in this instance, was

17 that when the documents are in order the Republika Srpska would take a

18 third of the items to allow the convoy to pass; correct?

19 A. Well, I cannot say that it was policy. It wasn't policy. I

20 don't know if there were cases like that. I told you what the position

21 of the leadership was, to take goods to their destination. But I don't

22 allow the possibility that things described by you happened because we

23 were not able to control everything, even the means of communication we

24 had at that time did not allow us to control everything.

25 MS. BIBLES: We can move this document from the screen now.

Page 28088

1 Thank you.

2 Q. And, sir, shifting directions or shifting topics again, in D760,

3 your Karadzic statement, paragraph 9, you describe that you were a member

4 of the SDS Main Board and Executive Board. Now, you were not elected to

5 those positions; correct?

6 A. Yes, I became secretary and I was also co-opted into the

7 Main Board. When I was elected at the parliament the president,

8 according to the statute, had the right to nominate some people, I don't

9 know if it was seven or nine people, proposing them to become members of

10 the Main Board. I was among those nominees. And as for the position of

11 secretary, I was elected officially at the Executive Council following a

12 competition for a publicly known vacancy.

13 Q. Sir, to make sure that we understand this correctly, is it true

14 that you were selected directly into the Main Board and Executive Board

15 by Radovan Karadzic?

16 A. To the Executive Council I was elected following a competition

17 when I answered a vacancy announcement, and into the Main Board I was

18 co-opted.

19 Q. And that means selected by Radovan Karadzic; is that correct?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. Shifting topics a little bit now going to D760, which is your

22 Karadzic statement, in paragraph 19 you describe that relations between

23 the central and local bodies of the SDS were rather complex and that at

24 the local levels there was a lot of misconduct and animosity from

25 Banja Luka into the Krajina towards Sarajevo and later Pale. In

Page 28089

1 paragraph 21 you state that leaders from the Krajina, and you name some

2 of them, were co-operative in the early stages but then began to have

3 problems as early as July of 1991. I'd like to discuss this area with

4 you right before the break.

5 MS. BIBLES: If we could have the transcript of 65 ter 20251 on

6 the screen, please.

7 Q. Sir, you'll see that this is a transcript of a conversation that

8 was intercepted between Karadzic and local party officials in Prijedor,

9 especially Simo Miskovic and Srdo Srdic. An individual by the name of

10 Radomir Neskovic also appears on the conversation. I would first like to

11 ask about Neskovic, is he an individual from Sarajevo?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. He was --

14 A. But I have to clarify if you'll allow me, he was a member of the

15 Executive Board together with me.

16 Q. Based out of Sarajevo. All right. Sir, he appears on this

17 conversation --

18 A. Right. I believe he was born somewhere near Pale.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please wait for the next

20 question.

21 MS. BIBLES:

22 Q. Sir, in this conversation as you see it appears that Mr. Neskovic

23 is in Prijedor.

24 MS. BIBLES: If we could go to page 2 in the English but stay on

25 page 1 in the B/C/S.

Page 28090

1 Q. And, sir, directing your attention to the lower part of the first

2 page in B/C/S, we see Neskovic describing a problem in Prijedor,

3 essentially that local Assemblymen are claiming more seniority. Now

4 moving to page 2 in the B/C/S and to the top of page 3 in the English, he

5 states:

6 "They do not recognise any authority here, especially if you

7 mention Sarajevo."

8 Is this an example of the kind of animosity that you were

9 referring to?

10 A. Roughly speaking, yes. But if you allow me to explain why

11 Neskovic is mentioned in Prijedor --

12 Q. Sir, that's fine. We'll get to that. Sir, following with the

13 conversation, if you look at the transcript, you'll see that Karadzic

14 replies with expletives and a short time on the same page later he says:

15 "And please tell them this: Whoever won't adhere to the policies

16 of the party and implement the policies of the party but adheres to their

17 own private policies ..." and there's some other words "let them sign

18 here, let them leave their place in the municipality and we will put new

19 people there."

20 Now, sir, isn't it true that when faced with those in the SDS who

21 challenged his policies, Karadzic could and would make changes to the

22 boards in the local levels; correct?

23 A. I don't quite agree. Maybe looks like that from this dialogue,

24 but in practice it was the Main Board and the organs of the party that

25 decided. In practice it wasn't like that, but he did react like this in

Page 28091

1 dialogues when he was angry.

2 Q. I think we can finish this quickly before the break. Sir, if we

3 turn to page 4 in the English and page 3 in the B/C/S, about halfway

4 down, page 4 in the English, we see a person named Trifko tell Karadzic

5 that a municipality seal was given to Neskovic. So you were present in

6 the room with Karadzic when this conversation took place; right?

7 A. I can't remember. I can't remember that detail.

8 Q. Is that the kind of thing you would have been doing or checking

9 on for being able to relay to Karadzic?

10 A. To check what? Excuse me. What was I supposed to check?

11 Q. If a municipality seal had been given to someone from Sarajevo

12 who had gone to another part of the Republika Srpska?

13 A. We didn't have any seals of municipalities. We only had seals of

14 the party.

15 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt that this is you in the

16 transcript?

17 A. I said I can't remember that detail. I can only confirm that we

18 did not have seals of municipalities. We only had a seal of the party.

19 Q. Moving on. In this intercept at the bottom of page 12 in the

20 English and --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we do that.

22 MS. BIBLES: I'm sorry.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did the municipality not use the party seal for

24 that municipality?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The seal of the party for the

Page 28092

1 party, yes, but municipal organs had municipal seals. And municipal

2 agencies also had their own seals or stamps.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bibles was asking you about municipal seals

4 and you said there were no municipal seals, and the question here that

5 Karadzic is asking is whether this document that is being handed over to

6 him bears the seal of the municipality.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let us understand each other. A

8 municipality as a sociopolitical unit is separate from a political party,

9 that is to say the SDS --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and in all its documents the

12 municipality has its bodies and its seals. The party had its seal. And

13 the municipal seal of the party has nothing to do with the seal of the

14 municipality.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I do understand that. And Mr. Karadzic is asking

16 this person called Trifko here, we don't know whether it is you, whether

17 this document that is being handed to him, which Trifko claims was given

18 to Neskovic, whether it bears the municipal seal. Now, you've told us

19 that the municipality has a seal and Karadzic wants to establish the

20 authenticity of this document by referring to this municipal seal to see

21 where it comes from. In any case the point is earlier you said there

22 were no municipal seals, now you say there are. So which of the two is

23 actually correct?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then I didn't understand you at

25 first. It's true that the municipal organisation of the SDS may have a

Page 28093

1 seal, but it was not a seal of the municipality. The municipality has

2 its own seal, it's a sociopolitical community. Here we are talking about

3 the political party.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

5 Madam Bibles was asking about the seal of the municipality not of

6 the party.

7 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: But she also wasn't [Overlapping speakers] --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I confirm again, we did not have a

10 municipal seal.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, I'm looking at the clock.

13 MS. BIBLES: I was overly optimistic about finishing this

14 section. Perhaps this would be a good time to take a break.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll take a break and we'll resume at 20

16 minutes to 2.00. You may follow the usher.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 --- Recess taken at 1.20 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 1.40 p.m.

20 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted

21 into the courtroom, Mr. Ivetic, you in your e-mail this morning you said

22 that adjudicated fact 80 was denied. Now --

23 MR. IVETIC: I can correct that. I believe it was reformulated.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Reformulated --

25 MR. IVETIC: Denied as formulated and then reformulated in

Page 28094

1 Your Honour's first decision on adjudicated facts.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now then there's no misunderstanding about

3 this matter.

4 MS. BIBLES: And if I may --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles.

6 MS. BIBLES: -- to save time, thank you, we could go to the

7 bottom of page 12 in the English of this document and page 9 in the

8 B/C/S -- or perhaps we can't. Never mind.

9 [The witness takes the stand]

10 MS. BIBLES:

11 Q. Sir, we'll now move a little further in this conversation to page

12 12 in the English and page 9 in the B/C/S. And, sir, we see down at the

13 bottom the page in the English, and I'm not sure frankly which portion of

14 the page in English, where it's suggested to Karadzic that he should

15 disband the board and appoint new people. Do you see that, sir?

16 A. [Microphone not activated]

17 JUDGE ORIE: We did not receive interpretation.

18 MS. BIBLES:

19 Q. It doesn't appear the witness's microphone is on.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Then ...

21 Yes, now it seems to be on. I see at least now the red light.

22 Could you please repeat your --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the page that is in front of me

24 in the language that I understand, there isn't my name indicating that I

25 am communicating with anyone.

Page 28095

1 JUDGE ORIE: No, that wasn't the question.

2 MS. BIBLES:

3 Q. Sir, you're not speaking here, we're not looking for your words.

4 But if you look at the middle of the page I believe it's Srdjo is

5 speaking and he's tell -- he suggests to Karadzic that he should disband

6 the board and appoint I believe it's ten people.

7 A. Srdjo is speaking --

8 Q. You see that?

9 A. I do, yes. I can see it now. I can see that it's Srdjo

10 speaking. I first understood that it was me speaking. Srdjo was the

11 official in Prijedor and he's suggesting to the president that a decision

12 should be taken by the party board. This is just a suggestion that Srdjo

13 makes in his conversation with Radovan Karadzic.

14 Q. Sir, are you aware that on the very next day, on 11 September

15 1991, Simo Miskovic and Mr. Stakic are elected as president and

16 vice-president of the SDS Assembly in Prijedor?

17 A. Yes.

18 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I would tender 20251.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar

20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21 MS. BIBLES: We can tender the transcripts, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: You just want to tender the transcripts, but then of

23 course we have a surrogate sheet at this moment in e-court so that should

24 be adapted first.

25 And, Mr. Stojanovic, attention was just paid to the text, the

Page 28096

1 words spoken, not to the intercept itself, the audio. Not having any

2 objections means that you do not challenge the transcript presenting the

3 words spoken in the intercept itself?

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you already reserve a number

6 for the transcript in both languages and that a decision on admission

7 will be taken once the audio has been separated from it.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Reserved number for document currently with

9 65 ter number 20251 receives number P6902, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes and that number is reserved once we have the

11 material uploaded as they should be uploaded.

12 MS. BIBLES: Thank you. And if we could have 65 ter 7101 now.

13 Q. And, sir, we'll briefly look at these. These are the minutes of

14 the SDS Assembly meeting in Prijedor on 11 September 1991.

15 MS. BIBLES: And if we can actually go to the last page now which

16 I believe is page 5 in the English -- excuse me, page 4 in the English

17 and page 5 in the original.

18 Q. Sir, we see the newly elected Simo Miskovic address the Assembly.

19 We also see an individual who I want to ask you about. It's described in

20 the English transcript as Nesovic who is there from the Sarajevo SDS

21 Executive Board. Would you agree that this would actually be

22 Mr. Neskovic?

23 A. Yes, Radomir Neskovic.

24 Q. Thank you. And, sir, you see the description saying that the

25 work of the local boards is central to the whole structure of the party?

Page 28097

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you would agree that that was in fact the relationship

3 between the local boards and the main party, that there was a

4 relationship at that time?

5 A. Other than the local boards there was also a Municipal Board.

6 The Main Board in the republic -- at the level of the republic, then you

7 also had lower organs, municipal boards and then the local boards. There

8 was the Main Board of the party and the local boards and then in between

9 those there were the municipal boards, specifically the municipal board

10 of Prijedor, for example.

11 Q. And, sir, you would agree that within the SDS these relationships

12 followed sort of the hierarchy that you've described?

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 7101.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 7101 receives number P6903,

17 Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.

19 MS. BIBLES:

20 Q. Sir, I'd like to discuss further the relationship, given your

21 statement, between the local individuals and Karadzic.

22 MS. BIBLES: If we could have 65 ter 20414, please.

23 Q. Sir, this is an intercepted conversation between Brdjanin and

24 Karadzic from 30 October 1991.

25 Sir, we see that Brdjanin phoned Karadzic to complain about a

Page 28098

1 dance being held after a number of Krajina soldiers had been killed.

2 MS. BIBLES: If we could have page 5 now in the English and page

3 4 in the B/C/S.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a clarification. On the record I see the

5 date of 30th of October 1991.

6 MS. BIBLES: Oh, I'm sorry.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the document it says 31st of October.

8 MS. BIBLES: Oh, it does. I'm sorry, Your Honour. I am

9 corrected. It would be -- this should be the 31st of October it appears.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

11 MS. BIBLES: Thank you for the clarification.

12 Q. We see Karadzic's reaction to this, where he states:

13 [As read] "Come on, man, do your job. Don't call me about every

14 major problem" -- I'm sorry, "minor problem." That is a major misread.

15 Returning to the quote.

16 [As read] "I am not your nanny. You have power in your hands and

17 you have presidents of municipalities through whom you can exercise this

18 power until we achieve autonomy. So you cannot, you cannot call me about

19 every detail. You should exercise power rigorously and to the fullest.

20 Not a single bird should be allowed to fly over the Krajina, and there

21 must not be a shortage of men from Krajina for the army. You must

22 establish all that ..."

23 Now, just above this section Brdjanin has said that someone asked

24 him to call Karadzic about all this. When Karadzic demands to know who

25 he says "Kupresanin." Who was Kupresanin?

Page 28099

1 A. Kupresanin was also an activist in the Krajina. At the beginning

2 he had formed an independent party. I cannot remember its name right

3 now, but I know that with the forming of the SDS he joined the SDS. His

4 party fused with the SDS so that there was a number of people in the

5 Krajina who were responsible for that area, including Kupresanin.

6 Q. So can we agree that Kupresanin and Brdjanin both spoke together

7 about an issue and then Karadzic was called about this issue? Can we

8 agree with that basic structure of the situation?

9 A. Well, I cannot confirm that. It's something that we can

10 assume - I don't have reliable sources in order to confirm it. It could

11 be a workable assumption but I cannot confirm it.

12 Q. Sir, wouldn't you agree or would you agree that it's obvious from

13 this and the other communications that the SDS central authorities

14 provided guidance, direction, and approval to the ARK leadership?

15 A. In the field, yes.

16 MS. BIBLES: I tender 65 ter 20414, and would be -- we'll create

17 a 20414a which would just be the transcripts for this conversation.

18 JUDGE ORIE: And the and the number already reserved for it?

19 THE REGISTRAR: Number reserved for document 20414a would be

20 P6904, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll hear from you, Ms. Bibles.

22 To be -- the witness answered the question, but where you said

23 whether it appears from this conversation and I think other

24 communications, I do not know exactly what other communications you had

25 on your mind. Apparently the witness had but ...

Page 28100

1 MS. BIBLES: I'm sorry, Your Honour, and I'll clarify the record.

2 I was referring to the previous conversation, the previous document that

3 I've shown him during the course of his cross-examination.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then you should have been used the singular

5 rather than the plural. Please proceed.

6 MS. BIBLES:

7 Q. Sir, in fact, you've previously testified that in addition to

8 Brdjanin and Kupresanin, Predrag Radic and Radislav Vukic were others

9 from the Krajina who regularly sought advice from Karadzic; correct?

10 A. Yes, they were local leadership at the Banja Luka Krajina level

11 and there was this communication. To tell the truth, I did say in my

12 written statement that there was situations when certain groups or

13 individuals behaved wilfully, not respecting the principles. And this

14 was a result of the fact that these were the first multi-party activities

15 in our country. So the direction was not quite clear, but there were

16 also ambitions which pointed to a struggle for power. So these were the

17 things that had an influence on some of these occurrences.

18 Q. And am I to understand you that in the end, when it comes to the

19 SDS central authority and local boards, that those issues or those

20 occurrences were resolved?

21 A. Most often they were resolved through dialogue when it was

22 possible to do it like that, by considering instances when Neskovic went

23 to Prijedor on behalf of the board or when individuals would go out into

24 the field in order to co-ordinate these things and define the line which

25 was laid down by the party. We always sought to resolve outstanding

Page 28101

1 issues in a democratic way.

2 Q. I'd now like to change topics and shift attention towards your

3 statement in D760, your Karadzic statement, paragraph 23, where you

4 indicate that Variant A and B was something that JNA generals were

5 working on but were not adopted. Sir, the Prosecution case is that these

6 instructions were issued on 19 December 1991 by the SDS Main Board and

7 they were commonly referred to as Variant A and B instructions. I'd like

8 to just go through some examples with respect to how these instructions

9 may have existed.

10 MS. BIBLES: First if the Prosecution could have P3771.

11 Q. Sir, these are the minutes for the 6th meeting of the

12 Executive Board in Kljuc held on the 23rd of December, 1991.

13 A. May I ask something? Am I permitted to put a question,

14 Your Honour?

15 JUDGE ORIE: You're not. If at the end of your statement you

16 would like to add something which is important, then you have an

17 opportunity to do so, but you should listen to questions and answer

18 them -- unless it is a question of a practical kind such as: Could I

19 have a hard copy of my statement or something like that, that's okay.

20 But not about the substance of your testimony.

21 MS. BIBLES:

22 Q. Thank you. Sir --

23 A. I actually wanted to ask which Executive Board? You said

24 "Executive Board meeting." Which Executive Board? Whose

25 Executive Board?

Page 28102

1 JUDGE ORIE: That's --

2 MS. BIBLES:

3 Q. Thank you. It's the 6th meeting of the executive committee of

4 the SDS Municipal Board in Kljuc held on the 23rd of December, 1991.

5 A. All right. Okay. Thank you.

6 Q. Now on page 1 in both versions, down where it says AD-1 it

7 states:

8 "Veljko Kondic informed the meeting of the instructions for the

9 organisation and activities of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 All organs will be required to work in accordance with the instructions.

11 Whoever is not ready to fulfil his duties should say so immediately and

12 it will not be held against him."

13 And then if we go down further on the page in English and I

14 believe it's on the next page in the original, right above the

15 composition of the Crisis Staff, the document's reference is Kondic again

16 as stating:

17 "That means that all suggestions and tasks from the instructions

18 are accepted in their entirety."

19 They then go forward and set up a Crisis Staff and describe its

20 membership. Sir, were you aware that the Kljuc SDS executive committee

21 was acting on these 19 December 1991 instructions?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MS. BIBLES: We'll move on then to P3773.

25 Q. Sir, these are the minutes of a meeting of the Prijedor Municipal

Page 28103

1 Board of the SDS on 27 December 1991. We see on page 1 in both versions

2 under the title "proceedings" that Miskovic, president of the Prijedor

3 SDS Municipal Board read out the instructions forwarded to the Prijedor

4 SDS Municipal Board by the Assembly of the Serbian People of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It then states:

6 "Since there were two versions, only version II which is relevant

7 for Prijedor municipality was read out.

8 "Having read out all of the items in sections A and B of version

9 II, Miskovic explained what had been done so far with respect to the

10 instructions."

11 And, sir, if we look to the bottom in English - and I am not sure

12 in the B/C/S I just realised - it appears on the same page, we see the

13 words "reasons and functions were stated for the establishment of the

14 municipal Crisis Staff and local staffs on territory of the

15 municipality."

16 Sir, as secretary of the Executive Board of the SDS, a member of

17 the Main Board, were you aware that the Prijedor SDS Municipal Board was

18 acting according to these instructions?

19 A. No, because you can see in one paragraph it says that this is the

20 Assembly of the Serbian people. The Assembly is a state organ, whereas I

21 have a party function. I said in my statement that I never attended any

22 sessions of organs that adopted these variants, and I also said that no

23 organ reviewed or recorded or put on its agenda or protocol or put a seal

24 or signed any of these variants. I don't know if the Assembly of the

25 Serbian people adopted anything; that could have happened without my

Page 28104

1 knowledge. Because you can see in item 1 of the agenda it says the

2 Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

3 Q. Sir, in your statement you indicate that Variant A and B

4 instructions never came to fruition. Having seen these documents, do you

5 change your position on that? Do you believe that, in fact, the Variant

6 A and B instructions came into being and were acted upon?

7 A. I said in my statement that the organs of the Serbian Democratic

8 Party, i.e., the Main Board, the Executive Board, the commissions and

9 committees did not officially review this material. Had they been

10 considering this material, this would be something that would be on

11 record, it would be signed and recorded in the protocol. This is what I

12 said in my statement which I signed and that I stand behind.

13 Q. Sir, if these were secret instructions at the time, wouldn't you

14 agree that they would not have gone through the formal process that you

15 describe?

16 A. It would have gone through the formal process but it would have

17 been marked as confidential or secret. I did not deny hearing of it. As

18 it says in my statements, I did hear that there was some talk about

19 something like that, but I did also say that I did not attend any

20 meetings where the party organs would be adopting something like that and

21 I never heard of such a thing.

22 JUDGE ORIE: But, Witness, am I -- I'm slightly confused now.

23 You said -- you earlier said: Well, this document says it is the

24 Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina. But the document

25 itself is from the SDS, which is a party. And I think in your statement

Page 28105

1 you said: None of the party bodies discussed or adopted this document.

2 Now, there clearly seems to be a discussion or at least it's part of a

3 meeting of the party, not -- this is not an assembly, a state organ, this

4 is a party meeting. So I'm a bit confused about your explanation. Could

5 you assist me?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I reacted in relation

7 to the document in front of me which states that in item 1 that the

8 implementation of decisions and positions taken by the Assembly of the

9 Serbian people of B&H. So that's what it says in the document. The

10 Assembly of the Serbian people referred to in item 1. It says:

11 "By the Assembly of the Serbian people ..."

12 This is what my reaction was in relation to. I cannot discuss

13 documents of the Assembly; I wasn't a member of it. But I said earlier

14 and now that organs of the Serbian Democratic Party as a party never

15 looked at these documents at any meetings that I'm aware of and I should

16 be aware of all of them. I did hear rumours about this perhaps coming

17 under consideration, but I did not ever take part in anything like that.

18 I hope that I was clear.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you said that none of the party bodies

20 discussed or adopted this document. Now, for the part of adopted I would

21 agree with you that this document says that the instructions were

22 forwarded to the SDS Municipal Board by the Assembly of the Serbian

23 people of Bosnia and Herzegovina. But it's clear, isn't it, that during

24 this meeting, which is a party meeting, because it reads at the top

25 "Serbian Democratic Party of Bosnia and Herzegovina," and it's a meeting

Page 28106

1 of that party where these instructions were introduced, explained, action

2 was taken upon them. So that is slightly different from what you said:

3 Well, we never discussed or adopted that. Would you agree that this is

4 apparently a subject of what was discussed in this meeting?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once again, I repeat that I stand

6 by my previous statement, and if you have any evidence pointing in the

7 direction of any organs of the SDS considering this issue, then please

8 put it before me.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the implementation seems to be part of what

10 was discussed at this meeting. So to that extent I would say that

11 evidence of that, understood in that way, is at this moment in front of

12 you on your screen.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But it is not stated anywhere

14 in this document that these were documents of the Serbian Democratic

15 Party or showing that these documents, these texts, were adopted by any

16 organs of the SDS.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to that.

18 Please proceed.

19 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, at this time I'm mindful of the clock.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 Could you give us any idea as to how much time you would still

22 need tomorrow?

23 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I anticipate needing about somewhere

24 between 30 and 40 minutes. I'll finish in the first session.

25 JUDGE ORIE: You would then stay within the assessment of the