Page 29115
1 Tuesday, 2 December 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
6 courtroom.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 There are no preliminary matters. There are no issues to be
12 dealt with by the Chamber. Therefore, we'll wait for the witness to be
13 escorted into the courtroom.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Milojica.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that
18 you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you will tell the
19 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Mr. Zec will now
20 continue his cross-examination.
21 Mr. Zec, please proceed.
22 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Mr. President. And good morning,
23 Your Honours.
24 WITNESS: RATKO MILOJICA [Resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
Page 29116
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Zec: [Continued]
2 Q. Good morning, Mr. Milojica.
3 A. [No interpretation]
4 Q. Yesterday we were looking at the record of your interview in 1993
5 that you provided to the investigative judge of the Banja Luka military
6 court. Before which go any further, let me ask you this: When you
7 appeared before the judge in 1993, he informed you why you were
8 interviewed; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. At the beginning of the interview, the judge informed you about
11 the criminal charges that you were facing and in which -- which, in fact,
12 were read out to you; correct?
13 A. Yes, I think he did read that, as far as I can remember.
14 Q. The judge advised you of the right not to say anything in your
15 defence or to -- or to answer any question; right?
16 A. Yes. I don't really remember that. I don't have a very good
17 memory. I was wounded and quite affected by it all, so to tell you the
18 truth, I really don't recall some things.
19 Q. And you were advised of the right to a defence counsel to be
20 present during the interview; correct?
21 A. I think so, yes. But I say again, I cannot remember everything.
22 Q. In fact, a defence counsel was assigned to you and he was present
23 during the interview; correct?
24 A. As I say, I really cannot remember that a lawyer was present
25 during that interview.
Page 29117
1 Q. His name was Radenko Jankovic. You remember the person who was
2 present there during the interview?
3 A. No, I don't remember.
4 Q. After the judge told you all of this, you said that you
5 understood everything and that you wanted to give a statement in your
6 defence; right?
7 A. I did give a statement, yes.
8 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: If we can see -- see the document in front of us.
11 It's not the order in which things happened.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, that is a matter for re-examination, I
13 would say.
14 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
15 JUDGE ORIE: But, Mr. Zec, at the same time, of course, rather --
16 I don't remember, but rather be precise and accurate in this respect --
17 MR. LUKIC: I have the objection.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- because Mr. Lukic will --
19 MR. LUKIC: It was misrepresented from the document. First, the
20 witness -- okay.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Lukic that's a matter for re-examination.
22 If you think that Mr. Zec is not eliciting the evidence which you
23 consider the accurate evidence, then you have an opportunity during
24 re-examination. At the same time, I warn Mr. Zec that he should not
25 be -- that it's rather for him at this moment not to create any confusion
Page 29118
1 which you would then have to deal with at a later stage.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Zec and, of course, it may be helpful to look
3 at the document for the Chamber also.
4 MR. ZEC: Of course, Mr. President. Can we have 65 ter 31697.
5 Page 2 in both languages.
6 Towards the bottom of the page it said that -- that the --
7 Mr. Milojica was informed of -- that there was a reasonable suspicion
8 constituting grounds for charges against him. And then goes to the next
9 page in both -- in -- also in the B/C/S. The accused was advised of the
10 right not to say anything in his defence or answer any question.
11 Then states that:
12 "The accused was advised of the right to a defence counsel who
13 can be present during the questioning.
14 "After being advised all of the above, the suspect stated the
15 following: I understand the charges and I will" --
16 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry. It's not now for Mr. Zec. There is no
17 B/C/S translation I am hearing from my colleagues and my client.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If that's the case -- of course, Mr. Zec only read
19 apparently what is in the document but at the same time we should receive
20 a B/C/S translation because he'll not continue doing that. Let me just
21 check.
22 MR. LUKIC: If you want to know what I objected to, maybe it
23 would shorten this. I objected that, first, the witness said that he
24 understood everything, and then legal advisor was pointed. It was not
25 vice versa as it was presented.
Page 29119
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. -- I said now twice that you can deal with
2 the matter in re-examination.
3 Mr. Zec now was reading what is said here, and -- Mr. Zec, you
4 referred to the presence of a lawyer during the interview. If there's
5 any specific portion you'd like to read which makes clear that a lawyer
6 was not only appointed but present, then, of course, that would be
7 appreciated.
8 MR. ZEC: In that respect, Your Honours, it's first line below
9 that says "decision," that the counsel was appointed. At the last page,
10 it refers to the defence counsel - last page in both versions - it refers
11 to defence counsel stating that he had no more questions which shows that
12 that counsel was present during the interview.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I think I wanted to avoid that we
14 intervene during the cross-examination and that you had a reason to raise
15 certain matters in re-examination, but since you've done it, now I'd like
16 to know from you whether there's any reason why, at this moment, you
17 think what was read by Mr. Zec makes clear that there was no lawyer
18 present. He was appointed and he said at the end that he had no further
19 questions. Now what's there what justifies your intervention?
20 MR. LUKIC: The order of the facts --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then it only strengthens my opinion and
22 I'll -- I'll discuss this with my colleagues, that it would have been
23 appropriate to deal with the matter in re-examination rather than to
24 intervene. Because you may argue that if at the end someone says they
25 have no more questions, he could not have been there on from the
Page 29120
1 beginning. That's -- you can argue that. But it's at least not such a
2 distortion of what the document says that it justifies an intervention.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Zec.
4 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. Mr. Milojica, so the reality is you were informed of all of these
6 rights even before you said a word to the judge; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. After the interview, you were offered to read the record of the
9 interview; correct?
10 A. Yes. I didn't read any of it because, as I said, I was
11 indisposed. I didn't really feel up to reading any of it, no.
12 Q. First of all, you just said now and yesterday that you were
13 threatened about and you were fearing of something, but last time when
14 you were here testifying, you only said that you don't remember giving
15 the statement, nothing -- no word about being threatened or anything. So
16 now you are again changing your evidence, do you?
17 A. When I said it was not my statement, it is my signature, but it's
18 not my statement.
19 Q. It was read out loud and you signed the record without any
20 objections; correct?
21 A. I can't remember that it was read out aloud. They were sitting
22 farther away from me, and I really cannot remember any of it, if you
23 believe me.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I at this point in time put a question to the
25 witness.
Page 29121
1 MR. ZEC: Yes --
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you please explain who was it who threatened
3 you to give this statement to the investigative judge?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The military police.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Where did you meet them? Or were you in their
6 custody?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was in custody.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: How many people -- policemen were with you at
9 that moment, when you were threatened?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think there were three of them.
11 And also one of them was there when I was giving the statement.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did he threaten you while you were interviewed?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. To stand against the wall,
14 that I would be beaten, and so on.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did he say that to you?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was in the presence of the investigative judge?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The one who was questioning
19 me.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did he hear that, what the military policeman was
21 saying to you at that moment?
22 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I didn't receive interpretation. Can the answer
24 be interpreted again, please.
25 THE INTERPRETER: We did not hear the witness.
Page 29122
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you please repeat your answer. I asked you:
2 Did he hear that, what the military policeman was saying to you at that
3 moment? And I'm referring to the investigative judge.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether he heard it or
5 not.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: How far away from you was the investigative judge
7 sitting?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. Perhaps some 4 to
9 5 metres away from me. It wasn't more than that.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What exactly did the policeman in that room where
11 you were interviewed say to you?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I would probably receive a
13 death sentence. I don't know, something like that. That I would be
14 beaten. And then I was so frightened I completely lost all my composure.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And that resulted in telling a detailed story
16 about what happened to the priest?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say this. I don't know
18 how they drafted it. I don't know if they took the statement from
19 somebody else and then they put into my statement whatever they wanted.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to approach
21 the microphone. Thank you.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please move a little bit closer to the
23 microphone because your voice is very low. Thank you.
24 Did you tell the investigative judge anything? Did you tell him
25 any story or was it just put on paper and you signed it while you
Page 29123
1 remained silent?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did say what I said during the
3 trial before, and then they were taking that down, and then they typed
4 out the statement.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which "trial before" are you referring to?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I testified in the Karadzic
7 trial here.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That means you -- in that moment, when you were
9 interviewed by the investigative judge, you told him a story. Was it
10 just imagination what happened, or did you tell partly the truth or the
11 whole truth?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told the whole truth.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And your evidence is that you told another story
14 than that which was noted down; correct?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did you tell that the Chamber when you testified
17 in the Karadzic case?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did say that this was not my
19 statement.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I have one additional question in that respect.
22 Your lawyer just accepted that they read out a statement which
23 was quite different from what you had told?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He did, yes. If I understood it
25 correctly. I -- I didn't understand the question.
Page 29124
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, a lawyer was present. You tell us that what
2 they wrote down is quite different from what you had told the
3 investigating judge. My question is whether your lawyer accepted that
4 just a totally different story was put on paper and read -- and was read
5 out or did he protest?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He accepted what was written. He
7 didn't object or -- or put any questions himself.
8 JUDGE ORIE: But didn't you then tell him not -- or to protest
9 when your statement was distorted fully?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't dare say anything because
11 I was afraid.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Would you have said anything to your lawyer if you
13 would have dared to ask him to protest against what was happening?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, to the lawyer.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Now, at the same time, today you tell us that it
16 wasn't read out, that you didn't read it, and you also tell us that you
17 would have protested. But from what you told us until now, you were not
18 even aware at that time, that what was put on paper was not your
19 statement. So how could you tell us that you would have protested where
20 you were not even aware and that it was just because you didn't dare to
21 say anything, while at the same time you're telling us that you didn't
22 know what was put on paper so that there was no reason for protest,
23 whatsoever.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know what was on the
25 paper.
Page 29125
1 JUDGE ORIE: So, therefore, it could not be out of fear that you
2 did not protest and that you didn't ask your lawyer to protest because
3 you were not aware.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, well, I didn't even know.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, therefore, if you tell us that out of fear
6 you didn't dare to ask your lawyer to protest, it's without any ground.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how to answer this.
8 Again, I don't understand you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you say that you -- on the one hand, you say
10 you do not know what was put on paper, that it was different from what
11 you had said. At the same time, you tell us that you didn't dare to ask
12 your lawyer to protest against what was happening. But there was no fear
13 because you didn't even know that something was put on paper which was
14 different from what you had said.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't even know what they wrote,
16 and I didn't say anything.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And, therefore, it could not be out of fear
18 that you didn't ask your lawyer to protest against what was ongoing
19 because you were not aware of what was ongoing, as you told us.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to that.
22 Mr. Zec, please continue.
23 MR. ZEC:
24 Q. Mr. Milojica, at the end of the statement it says after being
25 advised of the contents of Article 82 of the Criminal Code -- Procedure
Page 29126
1 Code, you stated that -- that you did not wish to read the record because
2 it was dictated out loud and you would sign it without any objections.
3 So now you saying that you did not know what is on the paper is just a
4 lie, isn't it?
5 A. It's not a lie. I just signed it, and I said that I was scared
6 and I was afraid.
7 Q. You knew what is on the paper when you signed it; correct?
8 A. I didn't read it.
9 Q. I didn't say that you read it. It was read out, out loud --
10 A. And I didn't know.
11 MR. LUKIC: Objection. Again, it's not read out. It's dictated
12 loud. It's here.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, but the question has been asked and the
14 question has been answered. Let's leave it to that.
15 Now, what Mr. Zec is putting to you is the following. If we
16 would believe you, the consequence is that the investigating judge is
17 lying. He is putting something on paper which is totally wrong
18 apparently intentionally, that the same is true for the court clerk who
19 signed it, and that your lawyer was accepting this without any words. So
20 there are three persons --
21 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, please. There is no signature of the
22 lawyer. That was our point. There was no signature of the lawyer. It
23 has to be there [overlapping speakers] --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm not in a -- Mr. Lukic, I'm not a
25 debate with you. The witness said that something was put on paper in the
Page 29127
1 presence of the lawyer. The lawyer not protesting --
2 MR. LUKIC: At the beginning he said that he does not remember
3 the lawyer at all.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay, we leave it --
5 MR. LUKIC: It was presented to him [overlapping speakers] --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- this is argument, Mr. Lukic, at this moment.
7 Two or three people, but at least that there were basically lies
8 and that you're the victim of that. That is what Mr. Zec is putting to
9 you. Is that the truth?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. To this day, I claim that
11 this is not my statement.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but there's more. But I leave it to that.
13 By the way, Mr. Lukic, when I was addressing the witness, I was
14 telling him what Mr. Zec put to him and that includes the presence of a
15 lawyer.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Zec.
17 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Your cousin Boro Milojica and Ranko Karan were also interviewed
19 about the same time; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Apart from some details regarding the location where you met
22 Ivica Pavlovic, Boro's and Ranko's statement were very similar to yours.
23 You all blame Ivica for the murder; correct?
24 A. We didn't blame him. He admitted it himself.
25 Q. So regarding the murder, there is no dispute that you and your
Page 29128
1 friends did take the priest to Ljubija and that you were there when the
2 priest was shot. That is what you say in your 1993 statement, that's
3 what you said in court when you were here first time. So there's no
4 problem with that. You were there present during the murder; correct?
5 A. I was in the car. I did not see when Ivica shot him because he
6 took him further away from the car.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all unnecessary
8 microphones please be switched off when the witness is speaking. Thank
9 you.
10 MR. ZEC:
11 Q. You told the judge in 1993 in your defence that Ivica took a
12 rifle from you and fired some 15 bullets into the priest; correct?
13 A. No, I don't I didn't have a rifle at all. My rifle remained in
14 Western Slavonia. After that I was wounded and I had no rifle at all.
15 Q. You told the judge that the rifle belonged to Boro, your cousin,
16 that's what you said. It's not yours but Boro's, cousin, but you had in
17 your hands before Ivica took it; right?
18 A. The rifle was not in my hands. It was in the car.
19 Q. Let's look what you said in the statement.
20 MR. ZEC: We have the statement, it's 65 ter 31697. We need
21 page 3 in both languages.
22 Q. Towards the end of the page:
23 "At that moment, Ivica Pavlovic took from me an automatic rifle
24 and fired a burst of some 15 bullets at the priest. The rifle that I
25 held belonged to Boro Milojica. When Pavlovic shot the priest, we asked
Page 29129
1 him why he did it, and he answered: The dog did not deserve to live."
2 This is what you told the judge in 1993 in your defence; yes?
3 MR. LUKIC: Objection. Several times this witness claimed that
4 this is not his statement so --
5 JUDGE ORIE: So -- let's resolve in this way.
6 Mr. Zec, the witness said several times that this is not his
7 statement. So the appropriate way of asking the witness is confronting
8 him with what the statement as put on paper says and ask for comment.
9 Because if it's not his statement, it doesn't mean that in every respect
10 it would not be -- reflect the truth because there are certainly some
11 elements, as presence of the witness at the crime scene, which seems not
12 to be denied by him. So, therefore, the appropriate way is not to say:
13 "You said this," and et cetera, but then to say: "The statement reads
14 that," and then you can ask the witness for any comment.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. ZEC:
17 Q. Mr. Milojica, what I read to you is written in the record of the
18 interview. So what is your comment about this event, the description of
19 the event?
20 A. The whole statement?
21 Q. The portion that I read to you that Ivica took rifle from you and
22 shot the priest.
23 A. He didn't take the rifle from me. The rifle was in the car in
24 the back, that thing, whatever it's called, back there in the car. It's
25 a shelf or whatever. But I never held the rifle in my hands.
Page 29130
1 Q. Your cousin Boro and Ranko told the judge the same thing, that
2 Ivica grabbed the gun from you and shot the priest. I take it that you
3 are aware of this?
4 A. I don't know what they said. I said that I never held the rifle
5 in my hands. The rifle was back there on that shelf in the car and he
6 grabbed it from there. Perhaps that was misunderstood, that he had
7 grabbed it or taken from me.
8 MR. ZEC: Your Honour, I tender the statement.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31697 receives number P6965,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
13 By the way, could the witness take off his earphones for a
14 second. Could you take off your earphones for a second.
15 Mr. Lukic, I'd like to briefly revisit your objections earlier.
16 You brought to my attention that the witness initially would have
17 stated that there was no lawyer present. Upon a specific question which
18 I put to you, the witness said about the lawyer:
19 "He accepted what was written. He didn't object or put any
20 questions himself."
21 If that is what the witness has testified, even if initially he
22 would have said something different, then it's inappropriate when I put
23 to the witness what Mr. Zec apparently wants to put to him, and which I
24 heard myself at least in interpretation, that the witness stated about
25 the behaviour of a lawyer who he didn't say was not present at that time
Page 29131
1 but explained what he did and what he did not, that is, to put any
2 additional questions. Then it's --
3 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
4 JUDGE ORIE: I'd rather not be interrupted. Then it is
5 inappropriate, Mr. Lukic, to bring to my attention, without asking first
6 that the witness takes off his earphones, to bring to my attention, and
7 with that to the attention of the witness, that he initially stated that
8 no lawyer was present.
9 If you think - and I'm inclined to say that that would be a wrong
10 thought - that you should intervene at that point, then at least you
11 should have avoided that the witness would hear your intervention, and
12 the way to do that is to ask me to invite the witness to take off his
13 earphone.
14 I leave it to this. The witness may put on his earphone again.
15 And may this be of guidance for any future intervention, if needed at
16 all.
17 Mr. Zec, you may proceed.
18 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Q. Mr. Milojica, in 2006, your cousin Boro with whom were involved
20 in this murder, he was on trial in Banja Luka for another murder that he
21 had committed in August 1992 against a Muslim near Prijedor; right?
22 A. He was tried for that.
23 Q. And you appeared as a defence witness in that trial in 2006;
24 right?
25 A. Yes.
Page 29132
1 Q. You wanted to help your cousin on trial by offering evidence
2 which was contrary to all other evidence that was presented in that case;
3 right?
4 A. No.
5 Q. The evidence in that case was that at the time of the crime your
6 cousin Boro had a beard and you told the court that he did not; correct?
7 A. That's what I said, and he did not have a beard. When I came
8 from hospital, when he came to visit me, he had the kind of beard I had
9 now. And as I said then, it was the kind of beard that can grow in, say,
10 20 days or a month.
11 MR. ZEC: Can we have 65 ter 31700.
12 Q. This is the judgement in the case against your cousin
13 Boro Milojica from 2006.
14 MR. ZEC: Can we have e-court page 6 for English and B/C/S
15 page 9.
16 On the top of the page, there is a -- there is your name. It
17 says the witness, cousin of the accused, Milojica Ratko, and then the
18 court provides summary of your evidence. And several lines below towards
19 the middle of the page, the court said about your testimony the
20 following:
21 "The only fact negated by the witness is that Boro had a beard at
22 the time in question. However, the court does not accept this part of
23 the testimony as it is contrary to all other statements; it is the
24 opinion of the court that the witness, who is related to Boro, is trying
25 to describe Boro differently - as not having a beard."
Page 29133
1 So, Mr. Milojica, the fact is that the court did not accept this
2 and found that you wanted to help your cousin by providing false
3 evidence; correct?
4 A. No. They either did not understand me properly. I cannot see
5 what is written here, but I said when I came from the hospital on the
6 22nd of July, Boro visited me on the 23rd and he didn't have a beard
7 then. And I don't know when this happened, this killing, on which date
8 and how much time had gone by from then and whether he had a beard then.
9 I just said that then he did not have a beard, when he came to visit me,
10 and he -- and they asked me whether that was that Boro Milojica, and I
11 didn't say anything that was not true.
12 MR. ZEC: I tender this document, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31700 receives number P6966,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
17 MR. ZEC: Let's turn now to the events in 1992.
18 Q. This Chamber has received evidence that the Serb forces took over
19 the power in Prijedor in late April 1992. And you know that this
20 happened in Prijedor; right?
21 A. They didn't take over Prijedor. They took the public security
22 station. It was sort of taken over. In Ljubija it wasn't. And I don't
23 know where else there are stations. I was very young then and I was not
24 really very familiar with all of that.
25 Q. In your statement, you say at page 2 that on 22 May 1992, you
Page 29134
1 went to the barracks to report to your unit. This Chamber has received
2 evidence that on 20th and 22nd May 1992, Mr. Karadzic and subsequently
3 Prijedor Crisis Staff issued orders on mobilisation, calling all
4 conscripts to report to their units. This is P2872 and P3417.
5 So the reason for you to go to the barracks, Mr. Milojica, was
6 this call for mobilisation; right?
7 A. No. I have already said that I was supposed to go to the front
8 line in Western Slavonia, not for mobilisation, and these other three
9 people who drove us, they're the ones who went for mobilisation. As for
10 Slavonia, there weren't any buses for that, and then they sent us home
11 for an extra two days to rest.
12 Q. Did you hear on the newspaper, TV, radio, calling for
13 mobilisation all conscripts to go to their units whenever they were --
14 and this was happening around 22nd May 1992?
15 A. Yes, I heard about general mobilisation.
16 Q. Let's turn briefly to the shooting at the check-point in
17 Hambarine.
18 You say in your statement that you recognised Aziz Aliskovic and
19 Ferid Delic at the check-point. Shortly after the incident at the
20 check-point, that is in July 1992, Aziz Aliskovic was captured by the
21 Serb forces, killed, and his body was displayed in public. You remember
22 that?
23 A. I heard that he had been killed and that he had been in Ljubija.
24 Q. With respect to Ferid Delic, is it possible that -- that you made
25 a mistake and it was Ferid Sikiric, not Delic. Is it?
Page 29135
1 A. No. Because Ferid Delic was in our army in Western Slavonia with
2 me and he came on leave together with me and then he crossed over to
3 them, their check-point ...
4 Q. At page 5 of your statement, you say that they took your rifles
5 at the check-point.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it be would fair to put this document on
7 the screen so that the witness can read it. And where on page 5 can we
8 find that portion?
9 MR. ZEC: It's D834. We need page 5. And for the B/C/S, it's 4,
10 page 4.
11 Q. You said:
12 "They took our papers and rifles to a small house, where they
13 said their command was."
14 Mr. Milojica, this is not correct. In fact, you refused to
15 surrender your weapons; right?
16 A. That's not correct. Lukic asked them to return us back to
17 barracks, not to touch us, that we were on way home, that we had no
18 intention of doing anything. We also had two Croats with us. In fact
19 this was -- I mean, in Prijedor, until then, the situation was peaceful.
20 That is to say, no one had been killed. There was no excessive
21 behaviour. Everything worked normally. And then quite simply we were
22 frightened, and this Lukic asked for the surrender of weapons and to be
23 returned to barracks. They promised sort of that they would return to us
24 barracks and took our documents and rifles and went to this command to
25 sort of agree on something, and they pointed all their rifles at us and
Page 29136
1 they didn't let us get out of the car at all. And there were six of us
2 in the car, and how could we get out or do anything? Except for the
3 driver, they made him go out and open the trunk.
4 Q. And when they told you at the check-point to go to the military
5 barracks, you also refused; correct?
6 A. We did not refuse. We were praying to God that they return us to
7 the barracks.
8 MR. ZEC: Can we have 65 ter 31692.
9 Q. This is a note made by the SJB Prijedor on interview with
10 Ferid Sikiric on 3 June 1992. And this is what they recorded.
11 "On ... 22 May 1992, I --
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you please direct the witness to the portion
13 you are reading.
14 MR. ZEC: Should be starting paragraph 3. Third paragraph.
15 "On ... 22nd May 1992, I was at the check-point in Hambarine."
16 Then few lines below it says:
17 "Then a civilian vehicle arrived. Security at the check-point
18 stopped the vehicle and Aziz Aliskovic approached the driver who was
19 wearing civilian clothes. The driver then got out of the vehicle and
20 stood next to its open door. There were people in military uniforms
21 sitting on the back seat. Then, I too approached the vehicle ..."
22 Next page in English.
23 "I heard Aliskovic tell the driver that the soldiers did not have
24 the prescribed insignia on their uniforms and that they must leave their
25 weapons and to go to the barracks to see the commander. The soldiers
Page 29137
1 refused to do this and did not want to surrender their weapons, even
2 though the driver tried to persuade them that they would have not any
3 problems because he knew Aziz Aliskovic personally. After the soldiers
4 refused to disarm, the vehicle came under fire. I had the feeling that
5 the shooting was coming from all directions."
6 Q. So, Mr. Milojica, contrary to your statement, you refused to
7 surrender the weapons and you refused to go to the barracks, and then the
8 incident started at the check-point; right?
9 A. Not right. Not right. One million per cent sure. Everybody has
10 his own story and also we were not all wearing the same thing. There
11 were two Croats who were in civilian clothes and then this third one also
12 who had been mobilised then, he was wearing civilian clothing too. It
13 was only us who wore military uniforms.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. ZEC: I have nothing further, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I have one question for the witness.
17 Was it common at the time that when there was no transportation
18 to the front of Western Slavonia, as you've told us, that when sent home
19 again, that you would take your weapons with you?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, from Western Slavonia.
21 Everybody was told that they could take a rifle, whoever wanted to.
22 However, I was young and I was not very good at this kind of thing. I
23 didn't take one but the other two did. One was older than I was and so
24 on.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So it was left to your own free will whether or not
Page 29138
1 to take your weapon, leaving the barracks --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Leaving the barracks, going home, whether you want
4 take your rifle or whether you would leave it in the barracks. That was
5 totally unregulated?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I left that rifle in Slavonia. I
7 did not bring a rifle from Western Slavonia at all. I mean, at the front
8 line. At the front line. I didn't bring that rifle back at all.
9 JUDGE ORIE: But the others, they had been with you at the front
10 line in Western Slavonia? The others who were with you in the car?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, those two. Whereas the three
12 people, no, Lulic, Mijatovic, Antunovic, they had been mobilised that day
13 and they were wearing civilian clothes.
14 Let me just tell you one more thing. At that time, we trusted
15 each other so much. I mean, when I trusted Croats to sit together with
16 them, it's just the parties that it started then. None of us were afraid
17 to get into the same car with him because we were neighbours and we
18 respected each other. And then this thing happened at the check-point
19 and ...
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. My question was focused on how it happened
21 that some coming from the front line would take their weapons with them
22 and even take them home; whereas you said: I left my weapon at the front
23 line. To whom did you give it? What happened?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there's this place where it's
25 left at the command. I mean, people who don't want to take their
Page 29139
1 weapons, take them along. I had a carbine. It wasn't a good rifle at
2 all, an M48. I didn't want to take it at all.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So it was just left to yourself whether you take
4 your weapon home or whether you leave it in the barracks.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I mean, weapons --
6 JUDGE ORIE: You've answered my question.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, before we -- I give you an opportunity to
9 re-examine the witness, perhaps we take the break first.
10 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes? We'll take a break of 20 minutes,
12 Mr. Milojica, and we'd like to see you back. We resume at ten minutes to
13 11.00. You can follow the usher.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could you give us any indication as --
18 MR. LUKIC: I hope I will be finished in 15, 20 minutes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. LUKIC: Fifteen, most probably.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milojica, you'll now be re-examined by
24 Mr. Lukic.
25 Mr. Lukic.
Page 29140
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Can we have on our screens,
2 P6965, please.
3 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Milojica, we will shortly see a document,
5 and that is a record of your interview of the 21st of October, 1993.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have the third page in
7 both versions.
8 Q. It is noted here above the word "decision" that you have
9 understood the charges and that you would state your defence and give an
10 account of the event and you that would not retain a defence counsel for
11 the time being.
12 After that, the court issued its decision, as is noted here, and
13 appointed Radenko Jankovic as counsel for you. It says that he was a
14 graduate of the law university and not a lawyer. So it's a difference in
15 comparison to the translation.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if there's any translation issue, you
17 bring that to our attention. And to -- hinting at what the difference is
18 between what we read in English and what the witness reads in B/C/S is
19 already not something you would be -- appropriately do. If there is any
20 difference, you should have asked this to be verified instead of telling
21 the witness what it is not. Apparently you were aware of this. You
22 should have told us at the end of the last session. Instead of now
23 putting it to the witness. The witness is not a translator.
24 MR. LUKIC: Can he remove his headphones, please.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please remove your headphones for a
Page 29141
1 moment.
2 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I don't think that he is aware of the
3 difference at all.
4 JUDGE ORIE: But you point it to him.
5 MR. LUKIC: But I cannot say "a lawyer" since it does not say "a
6 lawyer" on this document. That's why I was pointing --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then what you could have done, you could just have
8 read it or you could have drawn our attention to a possible translation
9 issue. But you should have done that --
10 MR. LUKIC: I will address that man or a person or whatever. I
11 don't think that he can distinguish between those titles in our legal
12 system.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But you could have asked him to read that portion
14 into the transcript.
15 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then we would have the interpretation.
18 JUDGE ORIE: It's clear that you -- Mr. Lukic, that there were no
19 bad attentions when drawing the attention of the witness to differences
20 in the two languages.
21 The witness can put on his earphones again.
22 If you mention Mr. Jankovic that's --
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Sir, would you just kindly read to us what it says in the first
25 paragraph below the word "decision." Can you see that on your screen? I
Page 29142
1 mean, you can come closer to the screen. And can you please read what it
2 says below the word "decision," "rjesenje."
3 A. Yes, the suspect.
4 Q. Can you read what it says about the defence attorney.
5 A. "Radenko Jankovic, a lawyer from Banja Luka, is hereby appointed
6 as assigned counsel to suspect Ratko Milojica."
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now it turns out we have received exactly the
8 interpretation --
9 MR. LUKIC: A lawyer, yeah.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- as it is written in the translation.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on. We may have some further comments on
12 it later. Please proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Radojica [sic], before you gave this statement, did you talk
15 with anyone who introduced themselves to you as your legal
16 representative, as your defence attorney in this case?
17 A. No.
18 MR. LUKIC: Can we see the last page of the document in both
19 versions, please.
20 Q. [Interpretation] On this page, we can see the signatures of the
21 investigating judge, the court clerk, and the accused. You accepted
22 this -- that this was your signature. After this interview, after it was
23 completed, did you then speak to anybody who introduced themselves as
24 your legal representative or your defence attorney?
25 A. No.
Page 29143
1 Q. I don't know how much you remember today, but -- and tell us only
2 if you remember, did any of these persons who are here, did anybody
3 else -- was anyone else asked to sign this paper; and did they -- if so,
4 did anybody refuse to sign the paper?
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
6 repeat his answer.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. It was not recorded in the transcript. Could you please repeat
9 your answer. The interpreters didn't hear you.
10 A. Well, I didn't say anything earlier.
11 Q. So do you remember today --
12 A. I don't remember.
13 Q. During this entire procedure - the beginning, the middle, and the
14 end - did you ever speak with anybody who was there in the capacity of
15 your legal representative?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at P6966, please.
19 Q. This is a judgement against your relative, Boro Milojica. The
20 Prosecutor put to you that you had come to protect your relative, your
21 cousin, and that you therefore did not tell the truth.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So I would now like to look at page 6
23 in the English again, please, and page 9 in the B/C/S version.
24 Q. The following sentence was read to you. It begins at line 10 in
25 the B/C/S version, from the top of the page, and in the English, it's
Page 29144
1 line 5, which says:
2 "The witness emphasised that Boro did not have a beard. He
3 further stated that he did not know anything about the murder of
4 Cehic Rasim. He said that apart from the accused, he did not know of any
5 other Milojica Boro. He stated that he knew that Boro's brother had been
6 killed at the beginning of the war and confirmed that during the period
7 in question, Milojica Boro had been at the unit and at home in the area."
8 And then the court goes on to find:
9 "This testimony also does not undermine testimonies of the
10 prosecution witnesses in any way. Furthermore, as is the case with other
11 defence witnesses, this testimony confirms that the accused was in that
12 area at the critical time-period, that he does not know of any other Boro
13 other than him, and that he does not know anything about the murder of
14 Cehic, Rasim. This witness factually confirms the value of the
15 statements made by the prosecution witnesses as well."
16 You told us today that on the 23rd of July, Boro visited you.
17 Why did he visit you on the 23rd of July?
18 A. Because I had returned from the hospital in Belgrade. He just
19 wanted to see me. He didn't have any news of me for two months because
20 the corridor was closed. So finally I came home. And then all the
21 neighbours came and he came too, to see me.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please look at a part of
23 this document in B/C/S that has not been translated. We need page 5, the
24 last paragraph on that page. And, at the bottom, it state -- we need to
25 look at this page so that we can see that this is the testimony by
Page 29145
1 Ljuban Vili. The last two words on this page say: "This witness ..." So
2 can we now look at the next page, please, "... describes that with the
3 arrival in front of the house of Cehic Rasim, some soldiers searched the
4 house. They didn't find weapons, that the same -- the person in question
5 was a civilian but that they took out of the house bills, kunas.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Zec, you were on your feet. Is there any
7 objection against Mr. Lukic reading at this moment or is it ...
8 MR. ZEC: As far as I can see where it goes, it seems like it's
9 beyond the scope of my cross. So I was trying to alert the
10 Court [overlapping speakers] --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, no, you have drawn the attention of the role
12 of this witness in those proceedings, and Mr. Lukic may further explore
13 that.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I have one question, since it is all about visiting
17 and whether having a beard or not, and perhaps that comes back, but what
18 was the date exactly on which the crime charged would have taken place?
19 MR. LUKIC: I think it's 14th --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Do the parties agree on that?
21 MR. LUKIC: 14th of August.
22 JUDGE ORIE: 14th of August.
23 MR. LUKIC: August 1992. And the visit was on 23rd of July,
24 1992.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that there is no dispute about that.
Page 29146
1 MR. ZEC: Correct, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
5 Q. [Interpretation] I will continue to read.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before you do, Mr. Lukic, is there any hope
7 that we'll get a translation of this part that's not translated?
8 MR. LUKIC: This document was uploaded by the Prosecution. And
9 we will ask for this portion to be translated as well, yes, Your Honour.
10 But now that's why I'm reading now.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, I understand. I'm just hoping that --
12 MR. LUKIC: I'm hoping too. Then I will continue to read.
13 [Interpretation] "Once they arrived in front of the house of
14 Rasim Cehic, some soldiers searched the house. They did not find any
15 weapons, that the person in question was a civilian, but that they took
16 out of the house bank-notes, kunas, from World War II, and that a quarrel
17 broke out between the accused and Rasim Cehic. He was standing some
18 10 metres away from them, and he saw Boro firing one shot from a sniper
19 rifle into Rasim Cehic who fell, and then he personally cursed Boro,
20 telling him that 'that is not okay' and that the other person responded
21 'they killed my brother.'"
22 Q. In your testimony in the Karadzic case and in your testimony
23 today, did you confirm that the brother of your cousin Boro Milojica was
24 killed? If you remember. Radovan.
25 A. Yes.
Page 29147
1 Q. And when was Radovan killed?
2 A. On the 22nd of May, when I was wounded and all the others too.
3 Q. And where was that?
4 A. In Hambarine.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now can we just quickly look at
6 65 ter 31692.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently we have here a judgement which is not
8 fully translated. One, if -- one of the issues that apparently appear is
9 whether the witness said that "he had no beard when he visited me" or a
10 time, because in the judgement, the part that is translated, it is
11 referred to this witness saying something about at the -- if I could say
12 so, the relevant time.
13 Now if there is any other portion of this judgement which gives
14 more details about the statement of the witness, in that case, then I
15 think the parties should try to find that together and submit that for
16 translation as well. If it sheds any light on what exactly the witness
17 testified in this case, apart from the evaluation of that evidence by the
18 court at the end.
19 Again, I do not know whether there's anything more in it --
20 MR. LUKIC: I don't think so, Your Honour. I read the judgement
21 and there is nothing more specific --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Is there -- apart from the judgement, is
23 there a transcript or a report of the hearing which, of course, may exist
24 which might shed more light on what the witness exactly stated there?
25 Which would certainly assist the Chamber in the evaluation of what is --
Page 29148
1 MR. LUKIC: There must be.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. LUKIC: So if the parties could try to find that and then to
4 provide the Chamber with more details about the witness testified.
5 Yes.
6 MR. ZEC: Yes, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I think -- I think it could be a joint effort by
8 both parties.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
11 Q. [Interpretation] The last document, Mr. Milojica, was this one, I
12 mean, the one that was shown to you by my colleague, which is an
13 Official Note, in terms of what Sikiric Ferid stated on the 3rd of June,
14 1992, at the public security station in Prijedor.
15 In order not to lead, let me ask you this way: Since it was put
16 to you that there was a difference between Mr. Sikiric's statement and
17 your own as to whether you had handed over your weapon or not, on that
18 occasion, did anyone from your car open fire at the people who were at
19 the check-point?
20 A. No. With 100 per cent certainty, no. There was no chance for us
21 to fire. There were four of us sitting in the back seat all over each
22 other.
23 MR. LUKIC: Let us see the bottom of the page. We need the last
24 line in B/C/S. In English version, we need page 3. And we need in
25 English, fourth line from the top.
Page 29149
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sikiric is explaining where the people at
2 the check-point were around the car and this is what he says. Do you see
3 the last down -- the last line down here?
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Actually, we need the next page in
5 B/C/S.
6 Q. "When the vehicle was checked, there were two men in front of the
7 vehicle, two men at the back. Aziz was to the left of the driver and I
8 was to the right of the vehicle. I was on the side, looking from the
9 direction of the check-point breastwork."
10 How many of you were sitting on the back seat of the car?
11 A. Four of us.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could we -- could I ask: What kind of a car was it?
13 Golf. Is that --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We could not hear the
15 witness.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I intervened. I spoke too quickly.
17 Could you repeat what you said about the car.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Golf Kec, as we called it. It is
19 Golf number 1.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. I would just like to show another exhibit from the list provided
23 by the Prosecution yesterday and today, 65 ter 20016, and it has to do
24 with your responsibility.
25 This is a document of the military court in Banja Luka dated the
Page 29150
1 25th of February, 1994, and this is a decision taken by this court. And
2 it says here that the charges are dropped against Boro Milojica,
3 Ranko Karan, and Ratko Milojica, all from Prijedor.
4 Did you ever receive this document?
5 A. I did not.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I ask a question here. The interpretation
7 said: "The charges are dropped." The writing says: "Suspended." What
8 is the correct one? There's a difference between those two.
9 MR. LUKIC: Dropped. That's my understanding. "Suspended" means
10 that something can be continued. After this decision, this proceeding
11 cannot be continued.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's why I'm asking the question because of
13 precisely that difference.
14 MR. LUKIC: But I have to testify because I don't think that the
15 witness can testify on this issue.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, I was asking the interpreters to help us.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We repeat what we have
18 said: Charges have been dropped.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE ORIE: As to the legal meaning of that - and, Mr. Zec, I'm
21 also addressing you - if you -- Mr. Zec, I'm also drawing your attention
22 to it. If the parties could agree on what it actually in legal terms
23 means, dropping, whether that's dropping forever or only on a temporary
24 basis, then, of course, that would be appreciated if you would stipulate
25 on the meaning of it. Apart from the linguistic translation.
Page 29151
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But I note for the record, under the heading
2 "Explanation," in the last two lines it was -- it can be read that the
3 prosecutor's office was withdrawing the indictment and therefore the
4 proceedings are suspended.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's exactly the reason why I asked the
6 parties to seek agreement on what the -- what the legal status of the
7 accused would have been after this decision.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. LUKIC: We would tender this document into the evidence,
10 Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 20016 receives number D835,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
15 MR. LUKIC: And I don't know if it -- if I did not jot it down or
16 if the Prosecution omitted to offer 31692 into the evidence. It was not
17 tendered yet.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It was not tendered yet.
19 MR. LUKIC: Then we would tender that document, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You would like to make it a D exhibit or --
21 MR. LUKIC: If the Prosecution [overlapping speakers] --
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- or if Mr. Zec forgot about it, you might be so
23 generous as to still make a P exhibit.
24 MR. LUKIC: Then, yeah, let's make it P, if my learned friend
25 wants --
Page 29152
1 MR. ZEC: My understanding that is the statement of this Sikiric.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. ZEC: I read the relevant portion but I don't have objection
4 if the counsel wants the whole document.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If you say you -- on purpose you only limited
6 it. Perhaps for context it is better to have the document --
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes, it's not a long one.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- in evidence. In view of your generous offer,
9 Mr. Lukic, and since Mr. Zec addressed the matter first, let's make it a
10 P exhibit.
11 Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31692 receives number P6967,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours. And I will just thank to
16 the witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Milojica, we have no further questions for you. Thank you
20 for having answered our questions.
21 A. Thank you too.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The Bench has no further questions.
23 Mr. Zec, any further questions for the witness?
24 MR. ZEC: No, Mr. President. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milojica, this concludes your testimony in this
Page 29153
1 court. I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way to
2 The Hague and for having answered all the questions that were put to you.
3 You are excused. You may follow the usher. And I wish you a
4 safe return home again.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE ORIE: And could the next witness could be escorted into
8 the courtroom. If at least the Defence is ready. The Defence is.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: No loud speaking. No loud speaking. If you want to
11 consult, take off your earphones and consult with counsel. At whispering
12 volume.
13 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Sajic, I presume. Mr. Sajic,
16 before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn
17 declaration. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 WITNESS: MILORAD SAJIC
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Sajic.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sajic, you will first be examined by
25 Mr. Stojanovic. I find Mr. Stojanovic to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is
Page 29154
1 counsel for Mr. Mladic.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic. If you switch on your
3 microphone, we could ...
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours.
5 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Witness.
7 A. Good day.
8 Q. Could you please speak slowly for the transcript and give us your
9 name and surname.
10 A. I am Milorad Sajic.
11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Sajic, at one point in time, did you give the
12 Defence of Radovan Karadzic a written statement?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please
15 have 65 ter 1D02520 in e-court. I would also like to ask that we take a
16 look at the last page of this document.
17 Q. Mr. Sajic, on this last page of the document that we saw or,
18 rather, we had seen its first page, the date, is it written in your hand?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 Could we now take a look at paragraph 1 of your statement. In
22 your CV, Mr. Sajic, during the proofing that we had before you appeared
23 in this courtroom, did you not tell me that in B/C/S -- as far as I
24 understood things, it's not really a problem in the English version, but
25 in B/C/S - and you insisted on this - it said: I have a degree in
Page 29155
1 economics and I am a teacher of national defence. And you say that it
2 would be more appropriate if it were to state: In terms of my education,
3 I'm an economist and a professor of national defence.
4 Would that be more appropriate and more correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. And could we now take a look at paragraph 53 of your
7 statement.
8 Mr. Sajic, as we were going through these documents during the
9 proofing, did you indicate to me that in paragraph 53, there's a word -
10 this is a resolution of the ARK Executive Council and it's supposed to
11 say "rjesenje," a decision?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. And now that we've carried out these two corrections,
14 in terms of what you had indicated to us, today, in this courtroom, now
15 that you've taken the solemn declaration that you will say the truth and
16 nothing but the truth, do you fully stand by the statement that you gave
17 to the Defence of Mr. Karadzic, and would that constitute your truthful
18 testimony to the best of your knowledge about the matters that you had
19 been asked?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
23 tender the witness's statement into evidence, 1D250. The statement of
24 witness Milorad Sajic.
25 MR. TRALDI: No objection.
Page 29156
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, no objection.
2 Mr. Stojanovic, the witness comments, I think, on many
3 adjudicated facts, isn't it? Are those adjudicated facts from this case?
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. And we
5 provided a table of the markings and the numbers of adjudicated facts to
6 the Prosecution, but it was numbered according to the system from our
7 case.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now that's fine that the Prosecution is
9 informed about such a table. The Chamber is finally the authority which
10 have to evaluate this evidence. Let me just have a look. Is that for
11 the adjudicated facts, is that the case? I mean, for the associated
12 exhibits that's perhaps different, but, Mr. Traldi.
13 MR. TRALDI: If I might assist, Mr. President. I think
14 Mr. Stojanovic is referring to a table which has been uploaded into
15 e-court under 65 ter 1D05304 and he -- we'd asked the Defence if they
16 were going to be tendering something making that connection. My
17 understanding was that they did intend to tender that table in the
18 context of the witness's testimony.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it on your list of associated exhibits?
20 I'm just looking, where is it, under what number exactly?
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: When was it put on your list, Mr. Stojanovic? I see
23 six associated exhibits if I'm not mistaken.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
25 JUDGE ORIE: Which one of it is it?
Page 29157
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] None of these six. These are
2 additional ones and that was uploaded into e-court by our assistant
3 yesterday. And we would like to put some questions about the documents
4 to our witness today.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'm talking about adjudicated facts primarily,
6 not about documents.
7 Are they phrased in exactly the same way in the Karadzic case as
8 they were in our case? Because I see that there's a reference, for
9 example, to 539. Of course, I noticed that we have no adjudicated fact
10 under number 539 so -- but have you carefully compared whether the --
11 whether the phrasing of the adjudicated facts in the Karadzic corresponds
12 for the full 100 per cent with adjudicated facts in our case?
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we did check that,
14 and we think so, yes, and we think that that adjudicated fact from the
15 Karadzic case, 539, should correspond fully to our adjudicated fact 431.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's have a look then. Because it may be
17 true that the Prosecution is fully aware of all this, but as matters
18 stand now, the Chamber is not informed about it. And you said it was
19 431. Let's just have a look at it. Yes, that, at least ... yes, it
20 seems to be literally the same. Of course, you have checked that for all
21 the adjudicated facts, that they are literally the same. And that table,
22 do you intend to tender that right away or -- so that we at least know
23 what we are admitting?
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then could you please -- I mentioned the number of
Page 29158
1 that table. And could we just have it on our screens for a second.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: 1D5304.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see it's there. Is there any objection
4 against admission of that table? If there's not, Madam Registrar, could
5 you provide numbers, first, for the statement of the witness and then,
6 second, for the table of concordance.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2520 receives number D386. And
8 document 1D --
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: 83 --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Is it 386?
11 THE REGISTRAR: D386, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Not 836? 836.
13 THE REGISTRAR: 836. My apologies, D836.
14 JUDGE ORIE: D836 is admitted into evidence. And now the table
15 of concordance.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D5304 receives number D837,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: D837 is admitted.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would also like
20 to tender six documents and I would also like to read out all six of
21 them, if you think that would be more efficient. I would read out the
22 65 ter numbers.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we tender document
25 65 ter 1D02940, which corresponds to paragraph 19 of the witness
Page 29159
1 statement.
2 Then 1D02984, which corresponds to paragraph 32 of the witness
3 statement.
4 Then 1D023810 [as interpreted], which corresponds to paragraph 44
5 of the witness statement.
6 The next document is 1D02384, which corresponds to paragraph 53
7 of the witness statement.
8 The next document is 65 ter number 1D -- it is actually 04847,
9 which corresponds to paragraph 41 of the witness statement.
10 And, finally, document which has the number 17 --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- for paragraph - let me just have a look -
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think you misread, Mr. Stojanovic. The last
13 one was 65 ter 9847. And you said 4847. Please check that.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. The 65 ter number
15 is 09847.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's -- the numbers are ... we have -- you
17 said six documents?
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. And the last
20 one is number 17009, which corresponds to paragraph 62 of the witness
21 statement.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now there's one document where I still have
23 some problems. That is, in relation to paragraph 44. Let me just check.
24 It reads on the transcript "1D023810," and I take it that it
25 should be 1D02310.
Page 29160
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Madam Registrar, could you assign numbers.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2940 receives number D838.
5 Document 1D2984 receives number D839.
6 Document 1D2310 receives number D840.
7 Document 1D2384 receives number D841.
8 Document 9847 receives number D842.
9 And document 17009 receives number D843, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: D838 up to and including D843 are admitted into
11 evidence.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like to read
14 a short summary of the statement of Witness Milorad Sajic, with your
15 leave, Your Honours.
16 Witness Milorad Sajic was a professor of national defence until
17 the war and also performed the duty of the commander of the TO of the
18 municipality of Banja Luka during the spring and summer of 1992. At the
19 same time he was also carrying out the duties of the secretary of the
20 regional Secretariat for National Defence. At the same time he was also
21 a member of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of the Krajina, and
22 he was an officer of the VRS by the end of the war.
23 In his statement, he speaks about the organisation and
24 functioning of the Territorial Defence, about the reorganisation of the
25 TO units and their transformation into units which after the 12th of May,
Page 29161
1 1992, became part of the newly formed VRS.
2 He states that this task of reorganising the units required time
3 as well as the establishment of commands of the newly formed brigades so
4 that the entire job was completed by mid-June 1992. He will describe in
5 detail his duties as secretary of the Secretariat of National Defence in
6 the Autonomous Region of the Krajina. Then his personal knowledge
7 relating to arming through both illegal and legal channels when the
8 call-up was announced and how the weapons were distributed both to the
9 Muslim and Croatian communities in keeping with the declared
10 mobilisation.
11 He will speak about his knowledge about the Serbian defence
12 forces and the blockades of Banja Luka in April 1992, about the work of
13 the Crisis Staff of the ARK, the relationship between the Crisis Staff
14 and the Army of Republika Srpska, claiming that the military structure
15 was never placed under the control of civilian authorities. He is aware
16 of the decision of the ARK Crisis Staff about the disarming of
17 paramilitary formations and how the same applied to all paramilitary
18 formations regardless of the ethnic group which formed them. He will
19 speak about his experiences relating to the position of the Pale
20 authorities in relation to the ARK and will state how the strategic
21 objectives stated at a session of the SRBiH Assembly never intended as
22 their goal to expel Muslims or Croats from the territory of the RS.
23 He had the opportunity to meet General Mladic on the 12th of May,
24 1992, at the Assembly of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and
25 Herzegovina, and to be present during his contacts and while he was
Page 29162
1 stating his position in relation to Defence Minister Subotic.
2 Finally, he will comment on eight adjudicated facts and explain
3 why he believed that they do not correspond to the actual situation on
4 the ground and his information about the situation in the field.
5 Your Honour, that was the summary. I'm looking at the clock, and
6 I think that after the break, I would put a few questions to the witness
7 and thereby finish my part in today's proceedings in relation to this
8 witness.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
10 We'll take a break. We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.
11 You may follow the usher. And we will resume at 20 minutes past midday.
12 [The witness stands down]
13 --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we please have
19 document D836 in e-court, and I'd like to focus on paragraph 2.
20 Q. Mr. Sajic, I'm just going to put a question to you in order to
21 clarify your statement.
22 The last two sentences in paragraph 2 of your statement where you
23 say -- can you see that now?
24 "I was a member of the Crisis Staff of the AR Krajina and in the
25 same year, 1992, I became an officer of the VRS ..."
Page 29163
1 I'd like you to tell the Court until when were you practically
2 within the Crisis Staff of the ARK and from when did you join the VRS as
3 an officer?
4 A. I was secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence until,
5 say, the end of July, and in the beginning of August as a reserve
6 lieutenant-colonel, I went to the front in Slavonia -- or, rather, I went
7 to Posavina, and I was a member of the Crisis Staff ex officio. So, in
8 the beginning of August, I became an officer of the Army of
9 Republika Srpska. After 1996, I was a director of the Palace Hotel, and
10 so on and so forth. That is to say, I was demobilised.
11 Q. Thank you. And could you please tell the Trial Chamber in
12 practical terms where you were stationed from August 1992 in Posavina
13 with the unit that you belonged to?
14 A. First, for a while, I was in the territory of Posavina or, more
15 specifically, the municipality of Zabari nowadays, and later on in Brod,
16 Derventa, Tactical Group 3. That's where I was until the end of the war.
17 Q. Thank you. Could we now take a look at paragraph 14 of your
18 statement. In order to clarify. This is what you say:
19 "In April 1992, I became the secretary of the Secretariat of
20 National Defence of the Autonomous Region of the Krajina."
21 Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what happened with the
22 duty that you carried out until then, the commander of the TO Staff of
23 Banja Luka? Did you continue to exercise these duties?
24 A. I was commander of the TO Staff in Banja Luka until the 15th or
25 16th of July, when brigades were established from the personnel of the
Page 29164
1 TO. That was my professional duty. I was paid for that. It was a paid
2 job.
3 As for being secretary of the secretariat for the region of the
4 AR Krajina, I was appointed to that position, I think, towards the end of
5 April. I can't remember the date. But this duty, secretary of the
6 Secretariat of the AR Krajina, I did that in addition to being head of
7 the TO, commander of the TO. This was a professional thing.
8 Also, I was not paid later as secretary of the secretariat but,
9 rather, as an employee or official of the municipality of Banja Luka
10 until the end of the war.
11 Q. Thank you. Could we please take a look at paragraph 56 now, 56
12 of your statement.
13 You speak of your impressions here from the meetings of the
14 Crisis Staff or, rather, the discussions that were held then. And you
15 refer to an official whose last name is Radic. And then in the second
16 sentence, you say:
17 "Radic was sitting at the back and he gave an answer that did not
18 satisfy them."
19 Please could you clarify what you meant by that, "Radic was
20 sitting in the back"?
21 A. In the room where this meeting was held on that day, there were
22 meetings on other days too, but on that day, Radic was sitting further
23 away from me, and then for me that meant in the back. So I was sort of
24 here, and he was sort of there. So I see that as in the back of the
25 room, the premises there.
Page 29165
1 Q. Thank you. And now paragraph 52, please, paragraph 52 of your
2 statement, where you speak about the situation when you had the
3 opportunity to hear and see the contact that General Mladic had. And,
4 please, without repeating what is written here, could you tell us what
5 was actually the reason for this reaction of Mr. Mladic's vis-à-vis
6 Mr. Subotic and what was your conclusion on that basis?
7 A. This was during the break while the assembly was in session. I
8 was not at that session until the end, but General Mladic was sitting
9 there, General Talic, and I. During the break, Subotic walked up to
10 us --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Stojanovic
12 please turn off his microphone. Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So he was explaining to
14 General Talic that certain status-related questions would be resolved --
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Please go ahead, Mr. Witness. I was just supposed to switch off
17 my own microphone.
18 A. So he was explaining some status-related questions for him and
19 for officers. Mr. Mladic then said that he would not interfere in that.
20 He was very explicit. He said that it was not his business. Actually,
21 this was a reflection of his attitude. He was man who knew that as far
22 as command is concerned, that he was responsible for all of those who
23 were below him, and he was very strict, very stern. He asked for
24 fairness, and he asked for people not to interfere in the business of
25 others. So that was my impression, that he was the commander of the
Page 29166
1 Main Staff, and that he was responsible for his officers and that he
2 would not be interfering in anything else. That is the way I saw that.
3 Q. Minister Subotic, when he addressed General Talic this way, and
4 when he went over Talic's -- over Mladic's head, did you understand that
5 as an attempt made by Subotic to take over the powers that did he not
6 have in actual fact?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
8 MR. TRALDI: I think there's a bit of comment in the question,
9 and I'd ask that it be rephrased.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please do that. Apart from there
11 being comment in it, I've not often heard a question more leading than
12 this one.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Witness, what was the reaction of Subotic at that moment?
16 A. My impression was that General Subotic practically spoke about a
17 subject that was not within the scope of his work. He was minister, but
18 all officers were responsible to General Mladic. So he was not supposed
19 to interfere in that. And then during the break, no one spoke to anyone
20 else and then the assembly continued.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sajic, for these answers. At this point in time,
22 for the time being we have no further questions for you.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for this time,
24 Your Honours.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask a question. The last answer you gave,
Page 29167
1 Mr. Sajic, starts with, as it is recorded: "My impression was that
2 General Subotic practically spoke about a subject" matter, and so on, did
3 you really say "General Subotic"?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe I could have said just
5 "Subotic." He was a colonel then. I don't think he was a general yet.
6 Colonel. Later on, he did become a general.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was he, at that point, in time minister?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then [overlapping speakers] --
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Because in your statement, you are addressing him
11 as "minister" and not with a military rank. I'm talking about
12 Mr. Subotic.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Subotic was in Banja Luka as a
14 colonel, and he went to Pale as a colonel. I don't know when he became
15 minister, but at that time he was a colonel. In the hierarchy, a colonel
16 is always below a general. But he was a colonel.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's clear. But in paragraph 52 of your
18 statement, you are addressing him as "Minister Subotic." And was he
19 present during this conversation in his capacity as minister or as a
20 military man?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He wore the uniform of a colonel
22 then. Whether he was a minister, I don't know.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any --
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's your statement.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't sure. Later on, he
Page 29168
1 would become -- well, maybe this was a slip in the statement. But
2 anyway, he wore the uniform of a colonel.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: May I take that the parties could find agreement on
5 whether -- when Mr. Subotic became minister of defence? Do you have
6 already an opinion about it, Mr. Traldi?
7 MR. TRALDI: I do, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's wait until Mr. Stojanovic is listening in
9 again.
10 Yes, Mr. Traldi, in the view of the Prosecution, Mr. Subotic
11 became a minister when?
12 MR. TRALDI: I'm afraid I don't have a date for appointment. I
13 would say it is our position that he had become minister before the
14 12th of May, 1992, and also no later than the 16th of April, 1992.
15 JUDGE ORIE: There two things. I see Mr. Stojanovic nodding yes
16 and I see Mr. Mladic waving with his finger which suggests a no. So,
17 therefore -- but I have one question for you.
18 Just assuming that he was a minister, you explained to us, you
19 said -- and I take ... one second, please. I find your -- you said:
20 "My impression was that Mr. Subotic practically spoke about a
21 subject that was not within the scope of his work."
22 Now, is the organisation of the financing of an army, is that not
23 within the scope of the work of a minister of defence? Just assuming
24 that he was a minister already.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The organisation of financing the
Page 29169
1 army in a country is within the purview of minister's job, but in our
2 situation it was a bit distorted, if I can put it that way. You have a
3 situation when a colonel becomes a minister and the commander of the
4 Main Staff is a general. I'm trying to say that this gesture that was
5 made at that moment, during that break, by Subotic who addressed Talic,
6 General Talic, who is there before his commander, General Mladic, that
7 was ill-advised, to put it mildly. Because the commander of the
8 Main Staff -- that is my understanding of the situation and I think
9 that's only natural. The commander of the Main Staff is responsible
10 before all for all of his officers. He commands them and he is
11 responsible for all of them. So it was his view that it was his
12 business, not Subotic's. That was my understanding, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, to say that it becomes clear, your statement
14 says that he talked to General Talic about the organisation of the VRS
15 financing and you tell us that that is within the purview of the task of
16 a minister but, nevertheless, it was not under those circumstances.
17 That's at least not exactly what your statement says and that is not
18 fully in line with what you said earlier, that he practically spoke about
19 the subject that was not within the scope of his work, whereas you now
20 say it was but it was slightly different.
21 Let's move on.
22 Mr. Traldi, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
23 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Before -- one second.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
Page 29170
1 JUDGE ORIE: I think Judge Moloto would like to address you
2 briefly, Mr. Traldi.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you start, Mr. Traldi, if you can look at
4 page 53, lines 14 to 16, and check whether the dates are 146th of May and
5 124th of April. And having done so, my question to you, you said by the
6 24th May he had become a minister but no later than April. Do you want
7 to say no earlier than April 14th?
8 MR. TRALDI: No, Your Honour. What I had intended to say it was
9 our position is that he had become minister before the 12th of May, which
10 was the date of the 16th Assembly that was being discussed, and also no
11 later than the 16th of April, so not later than the 16th of April, which
12 was the first date I had immediately to mind.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Traldi, please, start your
15 cross-examination of the witness.
16 Mr. Sajic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi. You'll
17 find him to your right, and Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
19 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
20 A. Good afternoon.
21 Q. Sir, you testified before this Tribunal in the Brdjanin case;
22 right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Also the Karadzic case; right?
25 A. Yes.
Page 29171
1 Q. And I take it it's your position that you told the truth in those
2 testimonies; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You were also interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor in
5 2001. Did you tell the truth in that interview?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And --
8 A. Even though I never actually saw the statement, I just signed it.
9 It was an audio recording.
10 MR. TRALDI: Actually, could we have 65 ter 31671.
11 Q. This will be part of your testimony in the Brdjanin case.
12 MR. TRALDI: And I'm looking for page 23, please.
13 Q. Now, this is the very beginning of your cross-examination in the
14 Brdjanin case and the prosecuting counsel is asking you very similar
15 questions. But beginning in line 17, he asks:
16 "And I think I read in your statement to the Defence ..."
17 I'm going to pause there. You also gave a statement to the
18 Brdjanin Defence; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And so Mr. Nicholls asks:
21 "I think I read in your statement to the Defence that you had
22 reviewed a portion of the transcript in your language from your interview
23 with the OTP, and you confirmed that your words had been faithfully
24 recorded; correct?"
25 You answered:
Page 29172
1 "Yes. But maybe there were some mistranslations. On the whole,
2 though, that is true."
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, but we
5 don't have a translation. Ever since Mr. Traldi began, we don't have --
6 we're not hearing the interpretation.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you indicate from where exactly. Because if
8 is the whole of the questioning where Mr. Traldi -- then, I'm a bit
9 surprised that you report it only now.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the whole question,
11 from the moment when Mr. Traldi started quoting from line 17 of the
12 transcript in the Brdjanin case.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please resume from there, Mr. Traldi.
14 MR. TRALDI: Yes.
15 Q. Sir, can you confirm that you're receiving translation of what
16 I'm saying now?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. I'd ask two questions about that. First, you gave a
19 statement to the Brdjanin Defence; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And at line 17 here, Mr. Nicholls is asking you about that
22 statement and says:
23 "And I think I read in your statement to the Defence that you had
24 reviewed a portion of the transcript in your language from your interview
25 with the OTP, and you confirmed that your words had been faithfully
Page 29173
1 recorded; correct?"
2 And you responded:
3 "Yes. But maybe there were some mistranslations. On the whole,
4 though, that is true."
5 And following up on that question, the Prosecutor asked you:
6 "Yes, well, from what you read, you said that everything had been
7 faithfully recorded; right?"
8 And you answered: "Yes."
9 A. I don't see the statement on my screen. I see it in English.
10 And on the basis of this statement, you are concluding --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Mr. Traldi is not concluding anything at
12 this moment. Mr. Traldi is asking questions. And he puts to you your
13 testimony in the Brdjanin case which is available only in English, and
14 therefore he slowly reads it so that you can hear what the questions were
15 at the time and what your answers were at the time. It may that be
16 Mr. Traldi later moves to the statement you've given. Wait for that.
17 And listen carefully to the next question.
18 MR. TRALDI:
19 Q. Sir, what I'm putting to you at the moment is: Previously today,
20 at temporary transcript page 56, I asked: "You were also interviewed by
21 the Office of the Prosecutor in 2001." You confirmed that you had told
22 the truth in that interview but then you said you never actually saw a
23 statement. And so for the clarity of the record, what I'm putting to you
24 is that in your truthful testimony in the Brdjanin case, you confirmed
25 that you had, in fact, reviewed a transcript of the interview you had
Page 29174
1 with the Office of the Prosecutor?
2 JUDGE ORIE: A portion is what --
3 MR. TRALDI: A portion.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you then please phrase it again.
5 MR. TRALDI:
6 Q. So you did review a portion of that transcript; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. TRALDI: Now, I'm going to move off this topic now and I'm
9 going to ask Ms. Stewart to play a short clip which has been uploaded as
10 65 ter 22341A. And actually I'm going to ask that we freeze right at the
11 beginning.
12 JUDGE ORIE: But, Mr. Traldi, I want one thing to be very clear.
13 MR. TRALDI: Yeah.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Mr. Sajic, when you gave that statement to
15 the Office of the Prosecution, irrespective of whether you had an
16 opportunity to review the whole of it and irrespective of whether you
17 make a reservation as far as possible translation errors may have
18 occurred, at that time when you gave that statement, did you intend to
19 tell the truth? And did you, to your recollection, tell the truth?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear. Because what you said is still
22 available on audio and how it is transcribed and how it is translated is
23 also still available for verification if there would be any problem in
24 relation to that.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
Page 29175
1 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President. And just to be clear, we
2 won't be relying on any audio for the clip that I'm using.
3 Q. And, sir, we've frozen at the beginning of the clip. Can you
4 tell us who the three people we see there in the front row are?
5 JUDGE ORIE: I don't -- yes, there it is.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Mladic, Talic, and myself.
7 MR. TRALDI:
8 Q. And this is at the 16th Session of the Republika Srpska Assembly;
9 right?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. TRALDI: If we could play up to 8 seconds.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MR. TRALDI:
14 Q. Do you recognise the person we see seated to General Mladic's
15 right?
16 A. I'm not sure.
17 Q. Did members of the authorities from the SAO Krajina in Croatia
18 attend this session?
19 A. It looks like Hadzic to me. If that's what you are thinking.
20 Q. That's Goran Hadzic?
21 A. It looks like him, but I -- I can't be sure. And I don't know if
22 they attended or not. I can't remember.
23 MR. TRALDI: If we could play up to 25 seconds.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MR. TRALDI:
Page 29176
1 Q. Who do we see on our screen now?
2 A. Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Milovanovic.
3 Q. What was Mr. Milovanovic's first name?
4 A. I think he was the vice-president. He was a doctor by
5 profession, but I can't remember the name.
6 Q. And Mr. Krajisnik is Momcilo Krajisnik, the president of the
7 assembly; right?
8 A. Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik, yes.
9 MR. TRALDI: If we could play up to 48 seconds and then pause.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. TRALDI:
12 Q. Now, the man on the right side of the image, you'd been unsure
13 before. Are you able to identify him now?
14 A. It looks like Mr. Hadzic.
15 Q. And just to ensure my chronology is correct, by this point, he
16 was the president of the RSK; right?
17 A. I think so, yes.
18 Q. Do you recognise the man with white hair at the end of the second
19 row?
20 A. Perhaps this is Ivanstanin from Gradiska.
21 MR. TRALDI: And if we could play forwards to 55 seconds.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MR. TRALDI:
24 Q. That's President Karadzic, right, in the front row?
25 A. Yes.
Page 29177
1 MR. TRALDI: And up to 1 minute, 3 seconds, please.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. TRALDI:
4 Q. And who is sitting next to him in uniform?
5 A. Mr. Subotic.
6 Q. Behind President Karadzic, do you recognise the face of the man
7 with the moustache?
8 A. It looks like Martic.
9 Q. Is that Milan Martic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And if you look two seats to Mr. Martic's right, do you recognise
12 the man seated there in a white shirt and a tie?
13 A. No.
14 MR. TRALDI: And if we could play up to 1 minute, 16 seconds,
15 please.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. TRALDI:
18 Q. Do you recognise the three people we see here?
19 A. I recognise Velibor Ostojic, in the middle. I cannot remember
20 the person to the left or to the right.
21 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask that we go ahead to 1 minute,
22 55 seconds.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. TRALDI:
25 Q. Do you recognise the man in the front with his finger on his
Page 29178
1 lips?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Who is that?
4 A. Mr. Brdjanin.
5 MR. TRALDI: Now, Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 22341A.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I'm just waiting for a CD. Thank
8 you.
9 Document 22341A receives number P6968, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
11 MR. TRALDI:
12 Q. Now, a seat in the front row next to General Talic and
13 General Mladic at an event like this would have been reserved for a
14 person of some importance; right?
15 A. No, I -- I didn't understand the question.
16 Q. Let me ask it this way. The people you've identified in the
17 front row are presidents, ministers, generals, and yourself, and you were
18 not at that time a president, a minister of the RS, or a general. What
19 about your various positions qualified you for a seat in the front row on
20 this occasion?
21 A. Nothing qualified me. I think that the general said: Here, sit
22 there. It was not a seat assigned to me. And they were all all over the
23 hall, if I can put that way. The seats were scattered.
24 Q. Which general told you to sit there?
25 A. I think that it was General Mladic. I approached General Talic.
Page 29179
1 He explained to General Mladic who I was, what I was, and he said: Well,
2 just take a seat here. But I didn't actually have a seat that was
3 pre-assigned to me.
4 Q. You knew General Talic by this point; right?
5 A. I had heard of him, about him from some reports, and that was the
6 time when I get to know -- got to know him a bit better.
7 Q. Well, if he explained to General Mladic who you were and what you
8 were, he clearly knew you too; right?
9 A. I don't believe that General Mladic could have known me from
10 before. There were no contacts. There was no reason for it.
11 Q. Sorry, let me ask the question very precisely.
12 You testified that General Talic explained to General Mladic who
13 you were and what you were. To do that, it must be the case that
14 General Talic knew you. It wasn't merely the case that you were familiar
15 with him from reports; right?
16 A. I don't understand or perhaps the translation I received was not
17 accurate. In any case, General Talic knew me; General Mladic did not
18 know me.
19 Q. You explained that "that was the time when I got to know him a
20 bit better," referring to General Talic. That period is May and
21 June 1992; right?
22 A. No. I explained that that was the occasion when I met
23 General Mladic and got to know him a little bit better, not
24 General Talic. I knew General Talic from before.
25 Q. Okay. You remained at this assembly session through
Page 29180
1 General Mladic's speech; right?
2 A. I don't think I attended the entire assembly session. Perhaps I
3 can say when I left.
4 Q. Well, let me ask the question again. You remained long enough
5 that you heard General Mladic speak; right?
6 A. I'm not sure about that. I -- I can't remember. I left at the
7 break. I think it was perhaps the second break, yes.
8 Q. Now, the Chamber has received evidence that the first speaker was
9 President Karadzic. So you were there for his speech; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you were aware, then, of the strategic objectives that he set
12 out at this session; correct?
13 A. I cannot be sure anymore, whether I heard about the strategic
14 goals then or if I left before that.
15 Q. Sir, you stayed till the second break, you said a moment ago.
16 President Karadzic spoke first. Is it your evidence that the president
17 of the republic is laying out the people's strategic objectives, you're
18 sitting in the front row, and you might not have understood or might have
19 become distracted?
20 A. My answer would be perhaps I did listen to it, but I can't
21 remember it. I don't recall those goals, objectives.
22 Q. Well, you can accept, sitting there, that separation of Serbs
23 from Muslim and Croats was one of the strategic goals that
24 President Karadzic laid out; right?
25 A. No. I don't know.
Page 29181
1 MR. TRALDI: Well, let's have 65 ter 31672, page 24.
2 Q. And I'm calling this up, sir, because you have accepted that in
3 your testimony in the Brdjanin case.
4 So you'd been asked about the strategic goals and you'd answered
5 at the top of the page:
6 "I know that they were presented, those goals were presented. I
7 know that there was mention of those goals."
8 A. I'm not getting the interpretation.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And do you now receive interpretation? Do you hear
10 my words now?
11 Could you please repeat your question --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Traldi.
14 MR. TRALDI:
15 Q. Sir, at the top of the page you're testifying and you say:
16 "I know they were presented, those goals were presented. I know
17 that there was mention of those goals."
18 So when you testified in the Brdjanin case, you agreed that you
19 knew that the strategic objectives were presented at that time. Can you
20 confirm today that you know the strategic objectives were presented at
21 the 16th Session of the Republika Srpska Assembly?
22 A. Yes, this was something that was known even by those who were not
23 present at the assembly session.
24 Q. And then the prosecuting counsel is reading to you from the
25 transcript of that assembly and he says:
Page 29182
1 "All right. Let me refresh your memory."
2 He says:
3 "This is President Krajisnik speaking."
4 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, this can be found -- the quote
5 that he is referring to can be found on page 9 of P431. We're not
6 obviously relying on the previous counsel's depiction of the speaker.
7 Q. It says:
8 "'The Serbian side of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Presidency, the
9 government, the Council for National Security which we have set up have
10 formulated strategic priorities, that is to say, the strategic goals for
11 the Serbian people. The first such goal is separation from the other two
12 national communities, the separation of state, separation from those who
13 are our enemies and who have used every opportunity, especially in this
14 century, to attack us, and who would continue with such practices if we
15 were to continue to stay together in the same state.'"
16 "That's strategic goal number 1. Do you remember hearing that
17 now?"
18 And you responded that you could accept that it had been said.
19 And then at line 17 you said:
20 "I can accept that this was a strategic goal. I'm not denying
21 that."
22 Do you today accept that this was one of the strategic goals that
23 was laid out at the 16th Assembly?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. I want to turn now to some other meetings --
Page 29183
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, I'm looking at the clock. If we turn to
2 another subject, would this be an appropriate moment to take a break?
3 MR. TRALDI: It would for me, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 Mr. Sajic, we take another break. We'd like to see you back in
6 20 minutes.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at 25 minutes to 2.00. You may
9 follow the usher.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 --- Recess taken at 1.16 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 1.38 p.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I asked you to confirm that the
14 adjudicated facts in the Karadzic case as given in the statement are for
15 100 per cent exactly the same as the adjudicated facts in our case.
16 There are serious reasons to believe that despite your confirmation that
17 they are not exactly the same, although -- therefore, could you have a
18 close look at what is 421 in our case and what is 447. Verify that and
19 inform the Chamber.
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not saying that they are not accurate in the
22 table of concordance, but at least there are a few problems which were
23 noted by the Chamber's staff. And, of course, we couldn't do it any
24 earlier because we were not provided with the table that you have
25 provided to us now.
Page 29184
1 Mr. Traldi.
2 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President. Before we start back up,
3 during the break, Mr. Stojanovic and I spoke. We're agreed that the
4 speaker setting out the first strategic objective at the 16th Assembly
5 was President Karadzic.
6 JUDGE ORIE: That's hereby on the record.
7 MR. TRALDI: And could we have 65 ter 31672, page 11, please.
8 Q. Just to finish the last topic, sir, your attendance at the
9 16th Assembly and when you were there.
10 Beginning in line 17 you're being asked about something
11 particular that Mr. Brdjanin said there. At line 25, you say:
12 "No. As I said before, I did not" - and then it continues on the
13 next page - "attend the whole meeting. I was there when General Mladic
14 spoke ..."
15 So I put to you again you remained at the session through
16 General Mladic's speech; right?
17 A. I don't have translation into Serbian here, but I did understand
18 what you were saying. I'm not sure that I heard all of Mladic's remarks.
19 Even when I said this, I wasn't sure. But then I don't know what all of
20 this really means.
21 Q. I'm going to turn now to another meeting in Banja Luka.
22 MR. TRALDI: If we could have Exhibit P353, page 53 in the
23 English and the B/C/S transcript.
24 Sir, as it comes up in, in paragraph 45 of your statement, you
25 say:
Page 29185
1 "It had also been planned that Krajisnik, Karadzic, Koljevic,
2 Subotic, and Mladic would hold talks with representatives of the ARK in
3 Banja Luka in late May 1992. But that did not materialise either."
4 Now, in fact, Karadzic and Mladic came to Banja Luka on the
5 2nd of June, 1992; right?
6 A. I don't know when the two of them came but this meeting that had
7 been planned was not held. I can't remember when it was that Karadzic
8 and Mladic came to Banja Luka.
9 Q. Well, we're looking here at a page of General Mladic's notebook.
10 We see: Banja Luka, 2 June 1992, meeting with leaderships of Banja Luka,
11 Bosnian Krajina, SRK and unit commanders of the 1st Krajina Corps and the
12 commander of the ViPvo of the SRBiH.
13 We see that Karadzic speaks first at this meeting.
14 MR. TRALDI: If we turn to page 54 in both languages.
15 Q. We see Mr. Brdjanin speak.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We still do not see it in English. There it is.
17 MR. TRALDI: Turn to page 56 in both languages.
18 Q. At the bottom we see someone named Martic; correct? And then
19 turning to page 57, Vojo Kupresanin.
20 So what Mladic is recording here is a meeting he and
21 President Karadzic had in Banja Luka at the beginning of June 1992 with
22 individuals, including many of the ARK authorities; right?
23 A. I see that that is written here, but I did not attend that
24 meeting. And I don't even know about this meeting. This is the first I
25 hear of it.
Page 29186
1 MR. TRALDI: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 06923.
2 Q. Now, this is an issue of "Oslobodjenje" dated the 3rd of June,
3 1992, and second one down on the left in the B/C/S, second note, we see
4 Karadzic and Mladic fly to Banja Luka. And we see in the second
5 paragraph that it's been associated with a request by Radoslav Brdjanin
6 to establish the borders of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.
7 So, in fact, this visit was covered in the press at the time;
8 right?
9 A. I didn't read that. And I don't know. I see that there was this
10 reporting.
11 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 06923.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 6923 receives number P6969,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
17 MR. TRALDI: Could we go into private session, please.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
19 [Private session]
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 29187
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 29187-29190 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 29191
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 MR. TRALDI:
14 Q. Now, before we leave the topic of meetings, sir, I want to ask
15 briefly about the meeting you had in Knin in May 1992 where you went by
16 helicopter. You discussed this in paragraph 47 of your statement.
17 You, Mr. Brdjanin, Mr. Zupljanin, Mr. Vukic, Mr. Kupresanin, and
18 Mr. Erceg were in Knin to meet with members of the RSK leadership; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Which members of the RSK leadership did your delegation meet
21 with?
22 A. I didn't meet with anyone. That is one thing. Brdjanin, I
23 think, met with Martic or I don't know who. And for me, that meeting --
24 well, later on it turned out to be something political but I did not
25 really understand it. I did not take part in the talks with the
Page 29192
1 AR Krajina.
2 Q. Sir, I want to ask now some questions about the Banja Luka
3 district TO Staff.
4 The command post of the district TO Staff was in the same
5 building as the corps command of what was initially the 5th Corps of the
6 JNA; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Your commander, Colonel Spasojevic, had his office in that same
9 building; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And your headquarters for the municipal TO Staff was in a
12 municipal building across from the brewery; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Including Banja Luka, there were 14 municipalities with
15 Territorial Defences that were underneath the Banja Luka District
16 Territorial Defence; right?
17 A. At that moment, at that moment, I think, yes, but before, there
18 were -- there were more.
19 Q. In paragraph 13 of your statement, you say:
20 "The combat engagements of TO units was within the exclusive
21 purview of the JNA."
22 The combat engagement of these units became under the exclusive
23 purview of the VRS after the 19th of May, 1992; right?
24 A. Yes, after the brigade was established.
25 Q. Now you describe the reorganisation of the TO into light brigades
Page 29193
1 in paragraphs 11 and 12 of your statement. That required you to meet and
2 speak with General Talic, the 1st Krajina Corps commander; right?
3 A. I did meet with Talic to discuss that matter, so the answer would
4 be yes.
5 Q. Among other things, you would propose commanders for the brigades
6 but the corps commander, General Talic, was actually in charge of
7 appointing them; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I'm going to turn now to the ARK Crisis Staff.
10 MR. TRALDI: And could we have Exhibit P3984, please.
11 Q. Now, this is a list of phone numbers for members of the
12 Krajina Autonomous Region War Staff, what's being described as the
13 War Staff, and it's dated 6th of May, 1992, and signed for Mr. Brdjanin.
14 Are the members reflected correctly here?
15 Sorry, I've been recorded to say "numbers," but I intended to say
16 "members" of the Crisis Staff.
17 A. These are those people but it's not a war-time staff. It was the
18 Crisis Staff. These notions are -- I mean -- I mean, I think that
19 whoever wrote this -- well, I mean, there was never a war-time staff of
20 the AR Krajina. There was a Crisis Staff that was established with these
21 people, Brdjanin, Sajic, Kupresanin, and so on.
22 MR. TRALDI: Could we go into private session briefly.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
24 [Private session]
25 (redacted)
Page 29194
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 29194-29195 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 29196
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
6 Mr. Traldi, if you move to another subject, there's another
7 subject which I need to address briefly in private session again, so then
8 we already -- no, we couldn't adjourn in private session, so therefore
9 it's good that we first went into open session.
10 Mr. Sajic, we'll adjourn for the day soon, and we'd like to see
11 you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom.
12 But before you follow the usher, I would like to instruct you that you
13 should not speak or communicate in whatever way with whomever about your
14 testimony, whether that is testimony you've given already or whether that
15 is testimony still to be given tomorrow. If that's clear to you, you may
16 follow the usher.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then we briefly move into private session.
20 [Private session]
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 29197
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the
13 3rd of December, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 3rd day of
16 December, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25