150123ED

Page 30508

1 WITNESS: VELIMIR KEVAC [Resumed]

2 [Witness answered through interpretation]

3 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]

4 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

5 Q. Good morning, Mr. Kevac.

6 A. Good morning.

7 Q. I'd like to continue on a topic that we finished off with

8 yesterday, and it's the topic of resubordination of police units.

9 Now -- to the military. And now at transcript page 30498, you

10 told His Honour Judge Orie, and I'll quote that:

11 "On a tactical level, it wasn't possible to carry out

12 resubordination of police units to the commander of the tactical level.

13 The commander of a tactical level who is an officer who was a division

14 commander or lower than that."

15 Now, that's what you said yesterday by way of a little reminder

16 for you, and I'd like to, in relation to that, show you a document.

17 MS. EDGERTON: 65 ter number 31827.

18 Q. Now, this is a -- this is a short document. It's an order dated

19 22 June 1992 from Colonel Galic to Operations Group 30, the 1st Infantry

20 Brigade, and the 19th Partisan Brigade. But I'd like you to have a look

21 at the order, and I want to draw your attention, in particular, to the

22 last two paragraphs which say:

23 "In exceptional cases where there is an urgent need, police

24 forces may be used for direct combat activities on the front to hold and

25 strengthen the front until the arrival of army units.

Page 30509

1 "In other cases, it is necessary to inform and receive permission

2 from the chief of the Security Services Centre."

3 So, Mr. Kevac, this is Colonel Galic doing exactly what you told

4 His Honour Judge Orie yesterday it was impossible to do, isn't it?

5 A. Yes. In this case, we're talking about exceptional situations

6 when there is a threat or a danger that the area populated by the

7 civilian population comes under threat from the enemy side. In that

8 case, in order to defend the area, police units are also engaged in

9 defence, pending the arrival of military units. Those were exceptional

10 cases. There were no such cases in the area of responsibility of the

11 division, so I can't say whether the police were engaged in keeping with

12 this decision of the division commander.

13 Q. So you're changing the evidence you gave His Honour Judge Orie

14 yesterday where you said it was not possible to carry out the

15 resubordination, aren't you, seeing this document that I've just shown

16 you?

17 A. This exceptional engagement of police units was certainly

18 approved by the police minister. Police organs had the approval for such

19 engagement in exceptional situations. This was regulated at the highest

20 level. Brigade commanders could not use police units without approval

21 issued by authorised bodies. Because, as it says under bullet point 1,

22 the police are used to keep law and order. This is their duty, and

23 that's how they are used.

24 Q. My question was, Mr. Kevac, whether you agreed that having seen

25 this document, you're changing the evidence you gave yesterday. That's

Page 30510

1 correct, isn't it, you're changing the evidence you gave yesterday,

2 aren't you?

3 A. I am not changing my evidence. I just confirmed that at the

4 tactical level the commander could not use the police; i.e., the term

5 "resubordination" is a term which I don't know how you interpret.

6 Resubordination means that if a unit is assigned to a commander, he can

7 uses it up to a certain point in time. After then, that unit is

8 resubordinated to another commander and that other commander continues

9 using it for a different task. Resubordination means that a unit is

10 placed from one command to another command, from the command by one

11 commander to the command of another commander. This document doesn't

12 specify very clear whether we're talking about resubordination or not.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on. We have the document now. We have

14 the testimony of the witness of yesterday. We have the testimony of the

15 witness of today. Let's move on.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Could I just have the document as a Prosecution

17 exhibit --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please.

19 MS. EDGERTON: -- before we go further please, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31872 [sic] receives exhibit number

22 P7051, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

24 Please proceed.

25 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

Page 30511

1 Q. Now, also yesterday you said that with respect to the Velagici

2 killings you heard there were proceedings initiated against the

3 perpetrators. And my first question to you on that point is: When you

4 talk about what happened in Velagici, you mean the killing on June 1st,

5 1992, of at least 77 men who had been detained at the school house in

6 Velagici by members of the VRS. That's what you mean; right?

7 A. I am not aware of the details of that case. I did not have an

8 occasion to see the reports issued by the police bodies that carried out

9 the on-site inspection and continued to process the whole event.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton, if I may just interrupt before you

11 proceed.

12 When you introduced P8051, at page 9, line 8 -- or 8, line 9,

13 sorry. Yeah, at 8 -- line 8. It was introduced as 31827. When it is

14 admitted at line 10 -- at page 10, line 11, it is 31872. Which is the

15 correct one?

16 MS. EDGERTON: 31827, Your Honour, I'm sorry.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: 2-7. It's not your mistake.

18 JUDGE ORIE: That's hereby then corrected.

19 Witness, in relation to the last question, you may not know the

20 details, but when you said that proceedings were instituted against

21 suspects, you were dealing with the killing of a large number of men that

22 had been detained at the Velagici school. Is that what you referred to?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I heard that information.

24 JUDGE ORIE: But -- and that's what you talked about when you

25 said that proceedings were instituted against suspects.

Page 30512

1 Ms. Edgerton.

2 MS. EDGERTON:

3 Q. But you know those suspects were never prosecuted, don't you?

4 A. I didn't know, and I don't know how the proceedings ended against

5 those suspects, because that was not in my remit.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, also yesterday at transcript pages 30493 to

7 30494 you talked about the events of the 28th May 1992 as being a

8 response -- actually you said:

9 "In this particular case, this was just a response to the Muslim

10 activity against the JNA column."

11 And then further you said:

12 "In other words, those activities were carried out as a

13 counter-measure after the Muslim forces had attacked the column."

14 Now, in fact, Mr. Kevac, the action -- pardon me. The -- the --

15 this wasn't -- this action wasn't a counter-measure at all and your

16 consistent reference to the attack on the JNA column is nothing more than

17 a pretext, isn't it?

18 A. That is not so.

19 Q. Well, let's have a look at this for a minute. What happened on

20 the 27th of May was isolated incidents in local Muslim-held pockets in a

21 larger Serb-controlled area.

22 MS. EDGERTON: And I'd refer Your Honours to P3851 and P2867 in

23 that regard.

24 Q. That's correct, isn't it?

25 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if she's relying upon exhibits, in

Page 30513

1 questioning the witness she needs to present them to the witness.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton has asked a question to the witness and

3 has informed the Chamber that relevant information could be found by the

4 Chamber in those documents, but she doesn't put those documents to the

5 witness. She puts a question to the witness. Perhaps at a later stage

6 she'll confront the witness with the documents, but she started by just

7 putting that question.

8 Would you please answer that question: Whether what happened

9 were isolated incidents in local Muslim-held pockets in a larger

10 Serb-controlled area.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the entire Kljuc area

12 municipality was a quiet area. The entire area was such that Serb and

13 Muslim populations lived there peacefully. There was no defined space

14 controlled either by Serbs or Muslims. It was all common space. And, at

15 that time, Mr. Omer Filipovic was the vice-president of the Kljuc

16 Municipal Assembly. He participated in the authority, in the running of

17 the Kljuc municipality. So I don't know of any areas that were under the

18 control of Muslims or areas that were under the control of Serbs.

19 MS. EDGERTON:

20 Q. Your response to these isolated incidents and the failure to

21 disarm was to launch attacks, widespread attacks, against the locations

22 that we've seen in the documents yesterday and areas of the municipality,

23 including by shelling those areas; right?

24 A. No, that is not correct.

25 Q. In those attacks on those Muslim-held areas, civilians were

Page 30514

1 killed. Isn't that the case?

2 A. I don't know that an order was issued for an attack or that the

3 army had the task of executing an attack. The army, Colonel Galic, in a

4 direct conversation with Mr. Filipovic, requested that the Muslims hand

5 over their weapons. When they failed to do that, Colonel Galic ordered

6 that a volley be fired as a warning in the direction of the place where

7 the ambush was. I said yesterday that I don't know where the shells

8 actually fell or if there were any casualties as a consequence of that.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Kevac, the question didn't relate to an order

10 to attack; it related to the attack. Could you please answer that

11 question.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An order is required for every

13 assignment that is being carried out. In this case, it was the action of

14 disarming Muslim paramilitaries in the municipal territory of Kljuc. It

15 was conducted in such a way that there was a search carried out, looking

16 for weapons and armed persons in the territory of the municipality. This

17 is not a form of action that could be described as an attack. An attack

18 is an assault on entrenched positions of the enemy in order to inflict

19 losses on the enemy using weapons and in order to capture their

20 positions. That's an attack.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm happy that you deny that this was an attack.

22 There's a difference [Microphone not activated].

23 MS. EDGERTON:

24 Q. Do you also deny that civilians were killed?

25 A. I don't have any data about civilians being killed.

Page 30515

1 Q. My question wasn't, Mr. Kevac, whether or not you had data. My

2 question was whether you denied that civilians were killed.

3 A. Your Honours, I'm not denying it. Probably they were killed, but

4 I don't know anything about it. I didn't have information about it.

5 Q. And it's also correct, isn't it, that during these operations

6 we're discussing, that houses, private houses in Pudin Han, Velagici,

7 these locations we're talking about, Biljani, Sanica, Prhovo, Muslim-held

8 locations were burned; right?

9 A. I don't know precisely but I did hear of individual instances of

10 some houses being torched. I wasn't in the area, but probably there were

11 some houses that were burned. There were houses that were not burned

12 also.

13 Q. And non-Serbs were surrendering to VRS forces in the face of

14 these operations en masse; right?

15 A. The population in that area responded to calls to come out to

16 hand over their weapons, those who had them. Those who didn't have

17 weapons still came out to identify themselves to be there. A number of

18 people fled. They were hiding in the woods, and there were armed Muslims

19 in that area until late 1993.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the question was about whether non-Serbs

21 were surrendering to VRS forces. Now, you have described a lot of things

22 but you didn't touch upon whether non-Serbs surrendered to VRS forces.

23 Would you please answer that question.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the procedure that the

25 units applied, the units that were searching the terrain.

Page 30516

1 JUDGE ORIE: Were non-Serbs surrendering to the VRS forces

2 irrespective of what specific procedure was applied? If you don't know,

3 tell us.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was an area mostly populated

5 by Muslims. Probably that's how it was. I don't know. I'm not able to

6 confirm whether they were surrendering or whether they had just responded

7 to the call.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you don't know. Please be aware that you

9 have -- you know a lot of details about what happened. You explained to

10 us they came out, some of them with weapons, some of them without

11 weapons. You know all the details. And if it comes to whether they

12 surrendered to VRS forces, you don't know, which may raise questions as

13 whether you are selective in your recollection because you give all the

14 other details at this question. But if you don't know, that's fine.

15 Then we'll move on.

16 Please proceed.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may just say

18 this: The commander requested the Muslims to surrender their weapons.

19 They surrendered their weapons and in that context they were surrendering

20 too. That's how it was, in that area.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, so they were surrendering. Why didn't you say

22 five questions earlier, yes, they surrendered? Was -- that was the

23 question. So they did surrender. The question was, in addition to that,

24 did they surrender en masse. Was it a large number that surrendered?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In accordance with the population

Page 30517

1 numbers in a certain place and the number of men, they would respond to

2 the call to surrender, to hand over their weapons, I don't know if this

3 disarming process was something that was en masse.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Again, you know all the details, you know that they

5 surrendered, but whether there are many or not, you do not know. Fine.

6 If you don't know, we'll move on.

7 Please proceed.

8 MS. EDGERTON:

9 Q. So you don't know that in your own division's area of

10 responsibility people were surrendering to your forces en masse. So do

11 you know that, in fact, across three municipalities at this time - Kljuc,

12 Sanski Most, and Prijedor - non-Serbs were being captured by VRS forces

13 by the thousands; do you know that?

14 A. Your Honours, the area of responsibility of the 30th Division

15 encompassed Kupres, Donji Vakuf, Turbe, Jajce, going all the way towards

16 the confluence of the Ugar river into the Vrbas river. This is the

17 position that was held by the division. Within that area, there was --

18 there was sections where there was no combat. The town of Kljuc, as

19 such, was not part of the division's area of defence. Sanski Most and

20 Prijedor, in particular, is where I heard that there was disarming of

21 Muslims. In Sanski Most and Prijedor. I did hear of that. But I don't

22 know of any details.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, again, you've described your area of

24 responsibility, which is fine, because then we know how you understand

25 the question. Then you said a lot of things, including that there was

Page 30518

1 disarming, but you have not given an answer to the question: Were you

2 aware that non-Serbs were captured by the VRS forces by the thousands in

3 your area of responsibility? Were you aware or were you not aware?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was aware that the terrain was

5 being searched and that disarming was under way, and I did hear that a

6 number of Muslims --

7 JUDGE ORIE: No, I stop you. I stop you. Why first answer

8 questions which were not put to you.

9 Were you aware that by the thousands non-Serbs were captured in

10 that area of responsibility?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's move on.

13 MS. EDGERTON:

14 Q. So you're the ops officer for your division, and you've already

15 explained how the reports you received from the division subordinate

16 units would be sent up to the division commander and how his reports

17 would then go up to General Talic, and in the normal course of things

18 they'd reach the Main Staff.

19 So if you don't know that the VRS in your area of responsibility

20 was taking control of thousands of non-Serb detainees, how come

21 General Talic knows while it's happening?

22 A. I answered yesterday that Muslims in the area of Kljuc were

23 handed over to the civilian police and then transported further,

24 according to their plan. This was not something that was done by the

25 division units, so I cannot really talk about things that I don't know

Page 30519

1 and what I didn't read in the information.

2 Q. In fact, the Muslims posed no real danger to VRS forces

3 whatsoever, didn't they? You took control of the area of Kljuc within

4 two days of those attacks. You know that, don't you, because you were

5 the operations guy, and you were receiving all those reports.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That's five questions in one there, Ms. Edgerton.

7 Could you please --

8 MS. EDGERTON: Can I break them up please, Your Honour, then.

9 Apologies.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, I -- I even encourage you to do so.

11 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.

12 Q. In fact, the Muslim forces or the Muslims posed no real danger to

13 you whatsoever; isn't that correct?

14 A. That is not correct.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, the -- in the composite version of

16 your questions, it was Muslims; now it is Muslim forces. So you are

17 putting a different question to the witness. I don't know whether he is

18 sufficiently -- was sufficiently aware of the first version of your

19 question and the second one. You see that your language is not the same.

20 Please proceed.

21 MS. EDGERTON:

22 Q. And you took control of the area of Kljuc within two days of

23 those attacks; correct?

24 A. The attacks were not organised other than warning volleys after

25 which Omer Filipovic announced that the Muslim Territorial Defence in the

Page 30520

1 Kljuc area would surrender.

2 Q. Is it correct that VRS forces took control, full control of the

3 area of Kljuc within two days of these isolated attacks?

4 JUDGE ORIE: It looks as if there's some confusion. From the

5 answer of the witness, I do understand that he thinks the question was

6 about attacks by the Serbs, whereas the attacks you refer to,

7 Ms. Edgerton, seem to be the isolated incidents of attack where Muslims

8 attacked Serbs, isn't it?

9 MS. EDGERTON: Correct.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So therefore the witness, in his answer, is

11 apparently not understanding what attacks you are referring to.

12 MS. EDGERTON:

13 Q. I'm referring to the incidents you've been talking about on the

14 27th of May, 1992. Now, is it correct that VRS forces took full control

15 of the area of Kljuc municipality within two days of those attacks, yes

16 or no?

17 A. No.

18 MS. EDGERTON: Could we just have a look, please, at one more

19 document and then we'll leave this area. It's P2875.

20 Q. Now, this is a report to the 1st Krajina Corps Command from their

21 morale and legal affairs officer. And I want you to have a look at the

22 fourth full paragraph in both languages, actually, on page 1.

23 It says, about the third sentence down -- actually, we can look

24 at the beginning of the paragraph. It refers to the military column

25 coming from Knin where two soldiers were killed, four were wounded. And

Page 30521

1 then slightly further, it says:

2 "Energetic action by our 30th Partisan Division resulted in the

3 defeat and breakup of those forces in the town of Kljuc itself in the

4 villages of Pudin Han, Velagici, Donji Ramici. Units of the corps have

5 established full control of the area."

6 It talks about weapons seized, and then says:

7 "About 280 enemy soldiers were captured in Kljuc and a number of

8 them killed."

9 Once again, you're contradicted by a contemporaneous military

10 document, weren't you?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.

12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I find it in the structure that

13 counsel has skipped over the part that says "and some enemy soldiers fled

14 into the surrounding area." That, if you're being -- present a document

15 to the witness to comment, you should have the full document, not picking

16 parts of it to construct the view is in favour of the Prosecution's

17 theory.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I don't know whether it really changes that

19 much, but, Ms. Edgerton, it -- indeed, the document also describes that

20 some of the enemy troops escaped, have escaped in the surrounding

21 mountains.

22 MS. EDGERTON: Indeed.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then let's then --

24 The question now to you is where you said there was no attack, it

25 was just firing a few shells to warn, and then everyone handed in their

Page 30522

1 weapons. Nothing was organised. Ms. Edgerton puts to you that the

2 document gives a different picture from what you told us, and I take it

3 invites you to comment on the contradiction between your testimony and

4 what is found in this document.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot clarify it other than to

6 say that that this energetic action represents one volley representing

7 the decisiveness of the army to resolve the situation in that area. As

8 far as I see and as far as I know, there was no other action. After

9 that, the action of disarming of military Muslim formations was carried

10 out in that area. The report refers to three villages: Pudin Han,

11 Velagici, and Donji Ramici. This is not the whole of the Kljuc

12 municipality. Other than these villages, there are many other villages

13 where Muslims lived and where there was no disarmament action or a

14 sweeping of the terrain in search of hidden weapons, and this is what my

15 answer referred to.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

17 MS. EDGERTON: I see it's time just about for the first break of

18 the morning, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is, and I think you have approximately

20 some -- you used 35 minutes approximately so you've 25 minutes left.

21 Well, that's for two hours, because yesterday you used one hour.

22 MS. EDGERTON: Correct. I hope to be done well within that time.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

24 Witness, you may follow the usher. We take a break and we'd like

25 to see you back in 20 minutes from now.

Page 30523

1 [The witness stands down]

2 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 [The witness takes the stand]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, you may proceed.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

9 Q. Mr. Kevac, the sheer scale of what the VRS did in response to

10 these isolated incidents in the three villages you just spoke about

11 before we broke shows that the operation against the Muslims was far more

12 than a counter-measure. In fact, it was a co-ordinated and planned

13 operation, wasn't it?

14 A. I'm not aware of that.

15 Q. And it was designed -- it was all about pushing the non-Serbs out

16 of Kljuc; right?

17 A. No, not right.

18 Q. So we'll just move on to a related area, actually.

19 You said that -- in your written evidence at paragraph 17, which

20 is on page 5 in English, you said the safety of the Muslims in Kljuc was

21 guaranteed. And then yesterday at transcript page 30460, you were asked:

22 "Who was tasked with this protection of the population?"

23 And your answer was:

24 "The MUP or the civilian police was in charge of that."

25 But, in fact, the VRS and the police were together committing

Page 30524

1 massive crimes against the non-Serbs in Kljuc, weren't they, Mr. Kevac?

2 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, it misstates the evidence. I believe

3 the testimony that is being referred to refers to paragraph 16 of the

4 statement.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, were you referring to paragraph 16?

6 MS. EDGERTON: I was specifically referring to the sentence in

7 paragraph 17 that says:

8 "No one touched them and their safety was guaranteed."

9 And I quoted the line from the testimony yesterday.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, apparently Mr. Ivetic understood it in a

11 different way. It's now clear what Ms. Edgerton referred to.

12 MR. IVETIC: But, Your Honours, the transcript referred to

13 paragraph 16, that's my point. The question is being -- the answer is

14 being cited as in relation to paragraph 16.

15 JUDGE ORIE: It's yesterday's transcript, you mean?

16 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, Your Honours. I have the page open

17 now, 30460. My question was --

18 JUDGE ORIE: If you give me a second --

19 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

20 JUDGE ORIE: -- then I have it open.

21 MR. IVETIC: Line 13 through the end of the page, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Your question yesterday, Ms. Edgerton, was related

23 to what you read yesterday from paragraph 16, so the testimony is to be

24 understood as in response to a question in which you read out

25 paragraph 16 and that is not exactly the same lines as you are apparently

Page 30525

1 referring to now in paragraph 17. So perhaps you should make this as

2 clear as possible by either -- perhaps by quoting both the testimony and

3 the line you wanted to put to the witness.

4 MS. EDGERTON: Of course, Your Honour. I wanted to remind the

5 witness initially of his written evidence which says, at paragraph 17:

6 "The Muslims that lived in Kljuc lived there peacefully. No one

7 touched them and their safety was guaranteed."

8 And, then, separately, I chose at the same time to remind the

9 witness of his testimony which was in answer to a question by Mr. Ivetic,

10 actually, yesterday --

11 JUDGE ORIE: I made a mistake there. It was Mr. Ivetic who then

12 referred to paragraph 16, and the witness then answered that. Sorry to

13 interrupt to you, but I made a mistake, indeed.

14 Please proceed.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, not at all, Your Honours. But now -- your

16 indulgence for a moment.

17 Q. My question to you, Mr. Kevac, was: The VRS and the police were

18 together committing massive crimes against the non-Serbs in Kljuc,

19 weren't they?

20 A. I heard about crimes committed by individuals in the territory of

21 Kljuc municipality. They were committed by individuals and proceedings

22 were instituted against them. This is as much as I can say about that.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if -- there apparently is an issue about

24 whether these were isolated individuals just acting on their own or

25 whether these were members of police forces or military forces.

Page 30526

1 First question: When you talk about individuals, do you mean to

2 say individuals that were not in any way members of police forces or

3 military forces? Is that what you intend to refer to, if you say

4 "individuals"?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in my statement, I

6 stated that I'd heard about members of the Army of Republika Srpska who

7 committed a crime in the school, in Velagici. I also heard that the

8 military police had carried out an on-site investigation and that those

9 soldiers were arrested.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, again, you apparently consider it very

11 important to tell us again and again that they were arrested. But I then

12 understand if you're talking about "individuals," of course, crimes are

13 often committed by persons. Now those individuals, if I understand your

14 testimony now well, that they may well have been members of the police

15 force or the military forces. Is that well understood?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I stated that --

17 MS. EDGERTON: Well, perhaps the witness -- Mr. Ivetic is on his

18 feet and the witness seems to be waiting for Mr. Ivetic to say something,

19 so perhaps we could resolve that before the witness continues.

20 MR. IVETIC: Let the witness answer and then I'll make my point

21 for the record.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Witness, if I put a question to you -- just

23 look at me; to no one else. I also noticed that you are seeking eye

24 contact with Mr. -- at least the Defence side. I didn't know whom

25 exactly you tried to reach.

Page 30527

1 I repeat my question: Do I understand your testimony well that

2 those individuals you're talking about may well have been members of the

3 police or the military forces? The Serb police or military forces.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

6 MR. IVETIC: And now, Your Honour, for purposes of the record,

7 the witness said precisely that at page 25, lines 1, just before

8 Your Honour's question. So Your Honour's question was asking something

9 that the witness had already answered.

10 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Ivetic. Again -- but I'm not entering into

11 debates with you again and again.

12 Earlier the witness was repeatedly referring to individuals, not

13 specifically about the Velagici school but about all kind of incidents,

14 this was what happened, and I wanted to clarify apart from the Velagici

15 school whether when he refers to individuals, whether that could refer

16 well to members of the police and the military forces.

17 So, therefore, I'm afraid that either you didn't fully understand

18 my question or you have not carefully looked at the answer the witness

19 gave which was exclusively about Velagici.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I draw Mr. Ivetic's attention to page 24,

21 line 15 to 17.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.

23 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Mr. Kevac, can you identify for us one single case where members

25 of the VRS were prosecuted for committing war crimes against non-Serbs in

Page 30528

1 Kljuc municipality?

2 A. I can say that persons who committed the crime in Velagici were

3 arrested and taken to the court in Banja Luka. What happened next, I

4 don't know.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, so therefore the answer is: I don't know

6 whether they were prosecuted.

7 So, indeed, as a matter of fact, the answer to the question is

8 simply no, because you cannot identify one single case in which persons

9 were prosecuted, and that they were arrested you have told us already

10 many times.

11 Ms. Edgerton please proceed.

12 MS. EDGERTON:

13 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Kevac? You can't identify one single war

14 crimes prosecution where members of the VRS were prosecuted for

15 committing war crimes against non-Serbs; is that correct?

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: In Kljuc.

17 MR. IVETIC: Asked and answered.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: In Kljuc.

19 MS. EDGERTON: In Kljuc.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell you about any single

21 case that was brought to an end, because I don't know.

22 MS. EDGERTON:

23 Q. Similarly, can you identify for us one single case where members

24 of the VRS were prosecuted for killing non-Serbs in Kljuc municipality?

25 A murder charge.

Page 30529

1 A. I don't have that information. I don't know whether anybody was

2 charged and found guilty of murder.

3 Q. All right.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Now, isn't this a matter which -- I mean, if there

5 would have been prosecutions for crimes committed in Kljuc, why not agree

6 on that? Whether this witness knows about it is a different matter.

7 I would urge the parties to seek an agreement on that. If no one

8 was ever prosecuted, then ... that isn't too difficult to agree upon, I

9 would think, but let's move on.

10 MS. EDGERTON:

11 Q. Now we'll go back to my first question that began this

12 discussion. And the question was whether you would agree that -- in

13 fact, I'll read it to you.

14 I asked you whether the police and the VRS together were

15 committing massive crimes against the non-Serbs in Kljuc.

16 Now, in fact, what they were doing, Mr. Kevac, was that they were

17 burning homes, they were looting property, and they were arbitrarily

18 arresting people. That's what was going on in Kljuc. Isn't that the

19 case?

20 A. As far as I know, in the territory of Kljuc municipality, Muslim

21 formations were disarmed in an operation that was carried out. There

22 were casualties, and houses were indeed torched during that operation.

23 Q. And so, in fact, the people whose job it was to protect the

24 civilians against these massive crimes were themselves the perpetrators;

25 right?

Page 30530

1 A. When we're talking about civilians, we're talking about unarmed

2 persons. In this particular case, those people had weapons and used

3 those weapons against the JNA column and against members of the Kljuc

4 police, and that resulted in people being killed and wounded. The

5 operation to disarm those armed individuals was carried out after their

6 commander, Omer Filipovic, announced that they were prepared to

7 surrender. Civilians, i.e., women, children, and elderly persons, were

8 not subject of searches, and they were not brought in by the police as a

9 result of that -- that operation.

10 Q. Mr. Kevac --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, I would have a few questions if you

12 would allow me.

13 You said a minute ago, Witness, you said -- let me find it to

14 quote you literally.

15 You talked about Muslim formations being disarmed, an operation

16 was carried out, "there were casualties, and houses were indeed torched

17 during that operation."

18 Do I have to understand this as that those who were involved in

19 this operation were involved in the torching of houses?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know who

21 torched houses, whether those were military or somebody else who arrived

22 after the military had departed.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you don't know. You were not present at

24 the time. Is that why you didn't know?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

Page 30531

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then tell us how you knew that only those

2 who had weapons were detained? How do you know that if you were not

3 present at that time?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that from the division

5 commander when he arrived at the division command post.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Did he tell you approximately how many people had

7 weapons and how many did not have weapons?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About how many people had weapons

9 and how many didn't, he did not give me the exact numbers.

10 JUDGE ORIE: No, but, proportions? 70 per cent had weapons or

11 300 had weapons, something of the kind, even without exact numbers?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that a large quantity of

13 weapons was confiscated. I didn't hear exact numbers. I don't remember

14 that an exact number was ever mentioned.

15 JUDGE ORIE: How are you sure that those who had no weapons were

16 not detained?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure that those who had no

18 weapons were not innate. Those who were brought in were processed. And

19 based on the information on who was a member of the Territorial Defence

20 and who wasn't, those people who were brought in were grouped into

21 categories.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what happened to the category that had no

23 weapons, well, let's say, men of military age, no weapons found on them.

24 What happened to them?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

Page 30532

1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Well -- no --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that some --

3 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't know, then you can't exclude any

4 possibility, I take it, whether they continued to be detained or were

5 released. You don't know?

6 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

7 MS. EDGERTON:

8 Q. So, Mr. Kevac, you made the point that the women and the children

9 and the elderly were not -- in Kljuc were not the subject of searches.

10 But, Mr. Kevac, the women, the children, the elderly who hadn't been

11 arrested had absolutely no guarantees of safety; right? Because the

12 authorities were the ones who were perpetrating the crimes; right?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, could you please -- you are inviting

14 the witness to say something and then also to give the reasons for what

15 he should confirm or not. That is really complex. Ask questions

16 please --

17 MS. EDGERTON: Of course.

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- about facts.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Of course.

20 Q. Mr. Kevac, you made the point that the women, the children, and

21 the elderly weren't the subject of searches. These were the same people

22 who -- whose male family members had been arrested in large numbers;

23 right?

24 A. Probably, yes.

25 Q. They had, the non-Serb women, children, and elderly, had no

Page 30533

1 guarantees of security, in fact; right?

2 A. I can't answer your question because I was not a member of the

3 authorities who were supposed to provide them with security. I'm talking

4 about the civilian police and ...

5 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- let's stick, then, to facts.

6 You say houses were torched. Now the question put to you by

7 Ms. Edgerton is a rather abstract one, but if your house is torched, then

8 at least no security was given such as to prevent the house being

9 torched. Would you agree with that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do agree.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

12 MS. EDGERTON:

13 Q. So these people left Kljuc, didn't they?

14 A. Some did. Some of those people left Kljuc. Some remained living

15 in Kljuc, however.

16 Q. And they left because of the climate of fear, didn't they?

17 MR. IVETIC: Objection. Calls for speculation. The witness

18 can't be asked to testify about the mental state and reasons of third

19 parties.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I can't say that similar questions have not

21 been put to witnesses at various times. But I would agree. Let's first

22 try to stick to facts, Ms. Edgerton. To that extent I grant the

23 objection made.

24 Previous question, you said: Those people left. You said some

25 left. Some remained. How many left; how many remained? If you don't

Page 30534

1 have exact numbers, I understand, but in proportions.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have exact numbers.

3 However, over one half certainly left. I don't know how many more than

4 one half.

5 JUDGE ORIE: But more than one half. Could it have been

6 95 per cent?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think so. It was probably

8 less than 95 per cent, but I don't know. I'm not sure.

9 JUDGE ORIE: What's the basis at all that you know that it was

10 more than 50 per cent.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know because it was something

12 that happened on a substantial scale. They requested to leave Kljuc.

13 The authorities allowed that to happen. I heard about it. I wasn't

14 present. I happened to be in a different place.

15 JUDGE ORIE: So you don't have any personal knowledge about it of

16 personal observation?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Did you talk to those persons before they left?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I was at the

20 division command. I was not in the Kljuc municipality area.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any knowledge - and on what basis -

22 about the reasons why they left?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say. I think that their

24 main reason for leaving was because they were afraid.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And that's what you think. Why do you think that?

Page 30535

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was war time.

2 Everyone was afraid, Serbs, Muslims. Everyone was afraid for the

3 survival of their families. Everybody wanted to place their families in

4 a place where they felt that they would be safer.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is true for Serbs as well?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that's correct.

7 Some Serb families left Kljuc municipality to go to Serbia, to go abroad,

8 because they felt unsafe because of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, was that also more than 50 per cent, that

10 Serbs, the percentage, that left?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were fewer than 50 per cent

12 of Serbs, so it was a smaller percentage of Serbs.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What approximately? How many families is it

14 in your recollection that left for safety purposes, Serb families?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really cannot say exactly how

16 many there were. All I know is that they left the Kljuc municipality

17 area.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking for exact number. Is it ten

19 families, is it 500 families, is it -- approximately, if you know? If

20 you say I've got no idea how many left, then please tell us as well.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know the exact

22 number. All I know is that they were leaving the territory of Kljuc

23 municipality.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You apparently ignored that I said that you

25 didn't have to give exact figures.

Page 30536

1 But, please, Ms. Edgerton proceed.

2 MS. EDGERTON:

3 Q. Your priority wasn't about protecting the Muslims from any of the

4 crimes we've been discussing, was it?

5 A. That is not so. Members of the Army of Republika Srpska were

6 told how they should conduct themselves, in what manner, and not to

7 commit crimes against enemy forces.

8 Q. All right. Let's have a look at one last document to wrap this

9 up today.

10 MS. EDGERTON: P3769, please.

11 Q. It's a report dated 16 February 1993 to the 1 KK Command from

12 Slobodan Dakic, and it's about a meeting of the Kljuc Municipal Assembly

13 and the situation in Kljuc from that period of time.

14 MS. EDGERTON: And if we could go over to page 2 in both

15 languages, the second-to-last full paragraph, I think, from the bottom.

16 Q. It says with respect to the onset of the war --

17 MS. EDGERTON: It's the last full paragraph from the bottom.

18 Q. With respect to the onset of the war in Kljuc municipality --

19 MS. EDGERTON: In fact, we can start at the paragraph above.

20 Q. I want to focus you on one sentence. It says:

21 "The Serbian army, police and Serbian people crushed and routed

22 genocide prone Ustashas in one fell swoop and cleansed the remaining

23 Ustashas from Kljuc."

24 And then says:

25 "By this act, the Serbian people made a clean break once and for

Page 30537

1 all with the centuries-old enemy."

2 In the next paragraph, it says -- it talks about:

3 "Individuals and small and large groups of people began illegally

4 appropriating Muslim property in Muslim villages and hamlets during

5 combat operations" in some of the area we've been discussing and

6 continued to do so when operations ended. This was done by military

7 personnel, members of the police, and local Serbs.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Now if we can go on to page three 3 both language.

9 I think the fifth paragraph.

10 Q. It says --

11 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment. I have to find it

12 on the page. Uh-huh.

13 Q. "Those and other acts," referring to different crimes.

14 "Those and other acts are being committed in full views of those

15 who were supposed to stop and prevent them and this in full co-ordinated

16 action and co-operation of civilian and military police."

17 Mr. Kevac, these crimes were all about pushing the non-Serbs out

18 of Kljuc municipality and provoking fear in those that remained. That's

19 what this document shows. And, once again, my question is: You're

20 contradicted by the contemporaneous evidence, aren't you?

21 A. I didn't know about anything like that. What I see now is that

22 somebody has written something. I don't know who it was. The person who

23 wrote it was not a member of the Army of Republika Srpska. So as far as

24 these political decisions and events in the Kljuc municipal territory is

25 concerned, I don't know what happened, what they discussed amongst

Page 30538

1 themselves ...

2 JUDGE ORIE: You say the author was not a member of the Army of

3 Republika Srpska. Do you know the author?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me repeat what I said. I think

5 it was Dakic. I think Dakic was a journalist in the Kljuc municipality

6 area. As far as I know, he was not a member of the army. I don't know

7 if he was or not.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you testified that he was not. You said he

9 was not a member of the army, and now you tell us that you don't know.

10 That -- you should be more cautious in not giving evidence where you,

11 three seconds later, say you don't know. Apart from, I think, that

12 Ms. Edgerton told you what his position was when she introduced the

13 document, but let's leave it to that.

14 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

15 MS. EDGERTON:

16 Q. And the fact is, the military and civilian police committing

17 crimes with impunity against the Muslims in Kljuc removed any real choice

18 they might have had about staying in their municipality; right?

19 A. I cannot confirm whether this is so or not so. This person wrote

20 that and he probably felt that was so. I already said that after the

21 Muslim forces surrendered, the majority of Muslims left the municipality

22 of Kljuc, and after that houses were burned individually, and so on and

23 so forth.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Now, a minute ago you told us that you did not know

25 whether the houses were torched during the operation or after the

Page 30539

1 operation. Now you tell us that it was after the operation.

2 Could you tell us what's the source of your knowledge that it did

3 not happen during the operations?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I didn't know whether

5 it was during the operation or after the operation. All I know is that

6 houses were burned, yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness, a second ago, you said:

8 "After the Muslims had left, houses were burned individually,"

9 which means after the operations.

10 Isn't that how I have to understand your testimony?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know for sure.

12 I know that I did see burned-down houses. I don't know whether that was

13 in the course of the cleansing operation or after the cleansing

14 operation. That's something I cannot confirm. I assume that it happened

15 then and afterwards.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time in your testimony you say it

17 happened afterwards, after you had half an hour ago told us that you

18 don't know.

19 I'm pointing at this because we noticed that you'll change your

20 testimony sometimes easily even within a few minutes and you're here to

21 tell us the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And if

22 you don't know anything, the whole truth is: I don't know.

23 Please proceed.

24 MS. EDGERTON: I actually have nothing further, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

Page 30540

1 Mr. Ivetic.

2 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Any questions in re-examination.

4 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I do.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

7 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

8 Q. Colonel, you were asked today by the Prosecutor -- actually, it

9 was put to you by the Prosecutor that these Muslim forces in these

10 villages did not pose a danger to you. How did the army view the attack

11 on a radio repeater relay, the capturing the soldiers in one village, and

12 the armed assault on a convoy of unarmed soldiers resulting in dozens of

13 casualties?

14 A. The army viewed that as a danger in relation to the army and the

15 Serbian people in that territory.

16 Q. Now, I believe you mentioned in your testimony that there were

17 other villages which were not searched for weapons that were inhabited by

18 Muslims in Kljuc municipality. Had those villages inhabited by Muslims

19 that were not searched, had they committed any assaults or attacks

20 against the army in the end of May 1992?

21 A. There were no incidents or attacks in those villages on members

22 of the army or the police.

23 Q. Now, I'd like to go step by step through what would be expected

24 in a standard mopping up operation per applicable JNA military doctrine.

25 First of all, what would be expected for individuals who

Page 30541

1 surrendered weapons, perhaps even legally owned weapons, and for whom the

2 processing revealed they had not participated in combat activity or

3 hostile activity. Now, what would happen to them after they were

4 processed in a standard scenario?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, we're interested in what happened not in

6 standard scenarios.

7 MR. IVETIC: We'll get to that, Your Honour. I intend to use a

8 document that Ms. Edgerton introduced yesterday that will show us what

9 happened, and I want to see if that's in accord with what would be the

10 standard procedure.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

12 Please answer the question, Witness.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A standard check of the weapons

14 means checking if the weapons were not used in combat, the owner would

15 receive his weapon back, and he would be informed about what the legal

16 terms were for possessing and keeping weapons.

17 MR. IVETIC:

18 Q. And in the case that it was determined that he had not used his

19 weapon in combat, what would the result be? Would that individual remain

20 in someone's custody or not?

21 A. In that case, the individual probably would not be kept any

22 longer in detention because there would no evidence for keeping him in

23 detention any longer.

24 MR. IVETIC: And now I'd like to go to a document that was used

25 yesterday, because Your Honours want to see the situation in Kljuc at the

Page 30542

1 time. And that is P3923; English page 59, B/C/S page 77. If we can go

2 to the next page in the Serbian.

3 Q. Sir, at the top of the page under -- in Serbian in results, at

4 the bottom of the page in English, we see for this action the 29th of

5 May in the villages of Pudin Han, Velagici, Donji Ramici, Sehici, the

6 results say:

7 "Arrested: 250 people who surrendered their weapons. After

8 investigation, 100 were released to go home."

9 Is this reporting from army organs reporting of a situation that

10 you'd expect as standard in a legitimate mopping up operation per JNA

11 doctrine?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. If we look at the next line:

14 "About 1.000 refugees in the village of Ljusa: They were allowed

15 to return home after a search of nearby villages."

16 Is this action as reported in this military document in accord

17 with the standard procedure for post-mopping up operation as understood

18 under JNA doctrine?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could -- Mr. Ivetic, could I seek some

22 clarification.

23 The refugees in the village of Ljusa, where did they come from,

24 what was their ethnicity, to the extent you know?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village of Ljusa is not in the

Page 30543

1 Kljuc municipality area. I'm not sure, but it was inhabited by Muslims.

2 JUDGE ORIE: But by Muslim refugees?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly what that is.

4 It says 1.000 refugees. They left their village and then they returned

5 to their village. Refugee status, according to international rules, is

6 something else. Here it was just a brief period when they left their

7 village, they were in a different area, and then they returned to their

8 villages. I don't know if they were actually refugees.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any personal knowledge about what

10 happened in Ljusa?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

15 And if we go back to the prior page in B/C/S, and it is the third

16 bullet point from the 30th pd in both languages.

17 Q. "These areas will be difficult to hold because part of the forces

18 fled to nearby mountains: An attack from these areas can be expected."

19 Is this in accord with the information that you received

20 subsequent to the actions in this area?

21 A. That information was submitted to the division commander about a

22 number of Muslim TO members handing over their weapons and a number not

23 having handed over their weapons and that they escaped into the hills and

24 the woods.

25 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to move to a different topic. Yesterday

Page 30544

1 at transcript page --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic --

3 MR. IVETIC: Yes?

4 JUDGE ORIE: -- since we are still on this page --

5 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would like to have a few more questions.

7 We just talked about the portion of this document, perhaps we

8 move to the next page in B/C/S again, about the thousand refugees in

9 Ljusa. The document also talks about:

10 "Arrested: 250 people who surrendered their weapons. After

11 investigation, 100 were released to go home."

12 Do you have any personal knowledge of what happened and ...

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have any

14 personal information or personal knowledge about what was happening.

15 JUDGE ORIE: So whether the 100 would have been elderly or

16 military-aged men, you wouldn't know?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: You also would not know what kind of weapons were

19 surrendered, whether these were legal or illegal weapons?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that either.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

22 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

23 MR. IVETIC:

24 Q. Colonel, yesterday at transcript page 30496, 30498, and 30499,

25 you were talking of something that was translated as joint action and

Page 30545

1 co-ordinated action, but I believe the Serbian word you used was

2 "sadejstvo." Could you please identify for us first is "sadejstvo" a

3 recognised JNA combat doctrine?

4 A. Yes, the term sadejstvo, co-ordinated action, is defined in

5 documents and rules of combat of the JNA, as well as in all combat

6 documents and rules of all the armies. That term appears in all such

7 documents.

8 Q. If an army unit is operating in "sadejstvo," or co-ordinated

9 action, with a police units in the field, can the army commanding officer

10 in the field issue orders to that police unit?

11 A. Co-ordinated action implies that two different units are carrying

12 their own assignments and that each one is helping the other in executing

13 their assignments. This is co-ordinated action. It does not imply the

14 command authority of one unit over another unit; in this case, the

15 command authority over the police unit.

16 Q. Now, also in the case of "sadejstvo," or co-ordinated action,

17 between an army unit and a police unit in the field, to whom would those

18 police units submit their post-action reports? Would it be to the army

19 commander?

20 A. They would submit reports to their own superior officer.

21 Probably information would be exchanged with the other unit, the one that

22 they were carrying out their co-ordinated action with.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, at transcript page 30498, lines 5 through 6

24 yesterday, you started to give an example from your own personal

25 experience of when you operated together with a police unit in an area

Page 30546

1 but you were not permitted to finish your answer and give this example.

2 Could you please tell us about your personal experience of how a

3 co-ordinated action was undertaken between your unit and a police unit

4 which you started telling us about yesterday?

5 A. Yes. It was a special police unit whose task was to go to a

6 certain area and together with units from the 2nd Krajina Corps on the

7 strength of the 3rd Petrovac Brigade, whose task was to be carried out on

8 a condition that my brigade carried out its task. After a certain time

9 they came to the corps command where I was, and they told us that their

10 engagement period was over. It was a police unit. They were to return

11 to their base irrespective of the fact that they did not manage to carry

12 out the mission that they had been given by their command.

13 Q. Okay. Now I'd like to move to my last topic.

14 MR. IVETIC: I have three questions, Your Honours. I see we're

15 close to the time for a break, but I have exactly three questions. So I

16 leave it to your discretion whether you want to try to finish before

17 or --

18 JUDGE ORIE: I think we'd prefer to try to finish.

19 I'm also looking at you, Ms. Edgerton. I don't know whether

20 you'd need -- have any further questions as matters stand now?

21 MS. EDGERTON: Not so far.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll try to conclude before we take a break.

23 MR. IVETIC:

24 Q. Sir, yesterday at transcript page 30471, lines 7 through 9, you

25 were asked if the 17th Kljuc Brigade of the VRS was formed in April 1992.

Page 30547

1 Do you know when the VRS itself was formed?

2 A. The VRS was established on the 12th of May, 1992.

3 Q. At the time that you were assigned for the first time to the

4 30th Partisan Division in May of 1992, did the Kljuc Light Infantry

5 Brigade exist as a formation?

6 A. No, it did not exist.

7 Q. When the Kljuc Light Infantry Brigade was formed in the beginning

8 of June 1992, did the 30th Division continue to operate any units on the

9 territory of the Kljuc municipality? And by "operate," I mean have

10 command over.

11 A. It did not have a command.

12 Q. Colonel, I thank you for answering my questions.

13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I thank you for the extra couple of

14 minutes. That concludes my re-direct.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And I thank you for sticking very strictly to your

16 three questions. The last question sometimes is the last of a series of

17 questions, but you strictly adhered to that number, three.

18 Have matters changed?

19 MS. EDGERTON: No.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, this concludes your testimony before this

22 Court. I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way to

23 The Hague and for having answered all the questions that you were put to

24 you by the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home

25 again.

Page 30552

1 testify about the same. He will testify that General Mladic did not

2 allow Serb soldiers to wear Serbian nationalistic insignia. He was also

3 present when General Mladic was wounded on the front line.

4 Mr. Sabljic witnessed the fall of west municipalities and

5 witnessed General Mladic's efforts to stop civilians from leaving this

6 territory.

7 Mr. Sabljic witnessed the consequences when, on the 7th of

8 August, 1995, a Croatian aircraft bombed the column of civilian refugees

9 near the village of Janjila in Bosanski Petrovac municipality.

10 And that was all we had for this statement summary.

11 JUDGE ORIE: It, indeed, is a short summary, Mr. Lukic.

12 Witness, you'll be cross-examined now by Ms. Edgerton. You'll

13 find her to your right. Ms. Edgerton is counsel for the Prosecution.

14 And the Judges have read your statement, so it's not that we do not pay

15 proper attention to it but there's no need to repeat everything here in

16 court, and it was summarised by Mr. Lukic.

17 Ms. Edgerton.

18 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

19 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Sabljic. Can you hear me okay?

20 A. Good afternoon. Yes, I can, good afternoon.

21 Q. All right. I want to talk you just for a little while about your

22 references to Kijevo in statement at page 3, paragraph 6. Page 3 in

23 English. And there you talked about what you call the liberation of

24 Kijevo in August of 1991, and you described it as a great military

25 victory and that was the first time you met General Mladic.

Page 30553

1 So just a couple of questions about Kijevo. Kijevo is a small

2 Croat town; right?

3 A. Before the war, it was a local commune. It was not even a town.

4 In the former state, in terms of its administration, organisation, and

5 structure, it was a local commune, albeit a big one.

6 Q. All right. And let just talk about the inhabited area then. It

7 was a Croatian inhabited area in a larger expanse that was predominantly

8 Serb. Is that fair?

9 A. Yes. On the right-hand side going from Knin to Kijevo is Velika,

10 and then from Kijevo to Sinj, the road forks off towards the Dinara

11 range. There's a village called Unista inhabited by Croats and Serbs in

12 an equal proportion, of course.

13 Q. And the attack that you refer to, that happened on the 26th of

14 August, 1991, and it was personally commanded by General Mladic; right?

15 A. The attack did not last one day. It took several days, and the

16 then-colonel of the Yugoslav People's Army, Slavko Lisica, was in charge.

17 His command was above Kijevo in the red lands. And as for General

18 Mladic, I saw him when he entered Kijevo and that was at high noon on the

19 26th of August, I believe.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, if you continue with this speed of speech,

21 your testimony will be over yesterday.

22 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, could you please slow down so that the

24 interpreters have the time to interpret what you say so that we also hear

25 what you say.

Page 30554

1 Please proceed.

2 And I may use my hands now and then to slow you down.

3 Please proceed.

4 MS. EDGERTON:

5 Q. And --

6 A. I apologise.

7 Q. And the -- that attack was executed, the operation was executed

8 in co-operation with the troops of SAO Krajina, right, Martic's people?

9 A. No. That attack was executed in co-ordination with members of

10 the Territorial Defence of the former Yugoslav People's Army. The

11 Serbian Army of Krajina or, rather, units of the future Serbian Army of

12 Krajina were engaged in that attack, primarily their artillery was.

13 During -- I apologise. During that time, two Galeb ships of the

14 Yugoslav People's Army were also engaged. They didn't open fire but I

15 saw them from St. Michael's, the church.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises. It's not ship but

17 aircrafts.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw them circling above Kijevo

19 from behind St. Michael's church.

20 MS. EDGERTON:

21 Q. But just to be precise, when you saw them circling that was after

22 the attack was over; right?

23 A. Yes, the attack was over and our units or, rather, our troops

24 entered Kijevo already. Before that, if you will allow me, I would like

25 to say that some 5 or 6 kilometres away from Knin, I came across -- or

Page 30555

1 was in the company of the members of the delegation of the

2 then-Yugoslavia, its Presidency. They had arrived in two Mercedes cars

3 in the village of Ceke. They told me that they came in order to --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, is that what you wished to hear about

5 as well? Because it was not part of your question.

6 MS. EDGERTON: It wasn't part of my question and I suspect the

7 gentleman may be repeating his written evidence which --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there's no need to do that. Please focus on

9 the question. The question was whether they were circling after the

10 attack was over. You've answered that question.

11 Next question, please.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 MS. EDGERTON:

14 Q. So it's clear to me now that you -- you were in Kijevo so you

15 must have seen that, as a result of the attack, Kijevo was damaged;

16 right?

17 A. Yes. What preceded was artillery fire from the position --

18 positions of the army, i.e., the Territorial Defence of the former JNA

19 that came from the direction of Ceke.

20 Q. And you know then probably that General Mladic was actually

21 convicted in absentia in a trial in Croatia for, among other things, the

22 destruction of Kijevo by the indiscriminate use of this artillery. You

23 know that; right?

24 A. No.

25 Q. All right.

Page 30556

1 MS. EDGERTON: Then let's have a look at 65 ter number 00828.

2 Q. It's a copy of the judgement in the case against General Mladic

3 that I've just described, and that's -- you see the first page in your

4 language.

5 MS. EDGERTON: And we can go to B/C/S page 4 and English page 6.

6 Q. So here you see in front of you a paragraph of the first page of

7 the decision, and it actually, Mr. Sabljic, supplements -- corroborates

8 and supplements what you say in terms of the operation in Kijevo. About

9 halfway through that first paragraph, it says:

10 [As read] "From 5.15 a.m. till 9.00 p.m. of the same day, fire

11 was opened from all available tank-mounted weapons, artillery pieces, and

12 rocket-launchers, and about 1600 shells of all calibres were fired and an

13 unknown number of larger bombs, including 16 cluster bombs were dropped

14 due to which Kijevo village was almost completely destroyed and burnt."

15 And then when the units of the JNA and Serbian Chetnik renegade

16 gangs entered it was also pillaged.

17 Now just in terms --

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Edgerton, if you reading something it should

19 be really exactly what we can read there as well. If, for instance, you

20 spoke about an unknown number of larger bombs, but it is an unknown large

21 number of bombs. You mixed up the two terms.

22 MS. EDGERTON: Pardon me, Your Honours. Yes, an unknown -- quite

23 correct. I apologise.

24 Q. Now, just to speak in terms of the artillery that was used and

25 other bombs that were used against Kijevo, it looks like the quantity

Page 30557

1 involved tanks in the area, heavy and lighter weapons, artillery pieces,

2 and rocket-launchers, and 16 cluster bombs -- 1600 shells of all

3 calibres, including 16 cluster bombs.

4 So you seem pretty well-informed about that operation. Is this

5 consistent with the information that you've heard and your personal

6 observations?

7 A. If you will allow me, I would like to share some details with

8 you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: No. You're, first of all, invited to answer the

10 question.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, there's a difference

12 between a bomb and a grenade. A grenade round comes from heavy

13 artillery. There were no tanks there but there were armoured combat

14 vehicles which analysts, or rather people who drafted these reports,

15 considered one and the same. In other words, what was fired were mortar

16 rounds. I was brought to Kijevo by a combat vehicle which carried

17 soldiers of the Yugoslav People's Army --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the ethnic

19 background of those soldiers.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you, Witness, please repeat the ethnic

21 background of the soldiers you were referring to.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two Siptars, one Muslim, and I was

23 with them, as well as one Croat. [In English] Sorry.

24 [Interpretation] But they all told me that they intended to leave

25 Knin-Krajina, and they indeed did leave some ten days later.

Page 30558

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you now answer the question, sir.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please remind me of the question.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton.

4 MS. EDGERTON:

5 Q. I read to you a long list of the types of fire that had been

6 fired -- the types of weapons that had been fired against Kijevo, and I

7 wanted to know, since you were there, if the damage that you saw, if the

8 remains that you saw, was consistent, this -- was consistent with your

9 recollection and observations.

10 A. Kijevo was demolished, but not to the same degree as a month ago

11 when I returned to Kijevo and there were no more citizens there. It

12 looked completely different. You know what comes after an assault.

13 There was a lot of looting and all kinds of things like that.

14 Q. So do I understand you correct when you say Kijevo -- as a result

15 of this attack, Kijevo was actually -- it was destroyed; right?

16 A. Yes, yes. But I said that this was not as much on that day as a

17 month later when I came back again.

18 Q. Fair enough. Now, everybody that -- the story of the attack on

19 Kijevo was made very public. You wrote about it, your colleagues from

20 Oslobodjenje wrote about it. Everybody knew what had happened there,

21 right, is that fair?

22 A. Of the colleagues, nobody was there except me, Branko Peric, who

23 was an editor in Knin entered it with me on that occasion. The two of us

24 were the only ones who wrote about it, and this was published. After us,

25 teams came from Slobodna Dalmacija, Belgrade Politika,

Page 30559

1 Television Belgrade. This is what I can remember.

2 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to play you some excerpts from a

3 series of tape-recorded conversations, and I'll tell you they're

4 tape-recorded conversations involving General Mladic, and they were

5 recovered by the Serbian authorities in February 2010 from his premises.

6 MS. EDGERTON: They're contained within 65 ter number 01643, and

7 with your leave, Your Honours, we'll -- they're very brief excerpts,

8 three of them, and we'll play them once very briefly and then have them,

9 of course, interpreted, with your leave, so that they can be confirmed by

10 my colleagues.

11 The first one I'd like to play is 65 ter number 01643d, page 17.

12 It begins at page 17 -- or it's an excerpt from a conversation between

13 Mladic and one of his subordinates named Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav. And

14 before it just begins I want to tell you, Mr. Sabljic, they come from an

15 audiotape that has had a label on it that says 10 October 1991.

16 And I'm starting the timer at time code 4:56.

17 And for the booths, by the way, the excerpt we're going to play

18 has been highlighted.

19 It seems like we're not getting volume. We'll try one more time.

20 Your Honours, I'm sorry, but it looks like we have a technical

21 issue, and unfortunately because the cross-examination is rather brief,

22 the anticipated cross-examination, I'm not able to really easily move on

23 to another topic to allow for my colleagues to fix the technical issue.

24 JUDGE ORIE: What we could do is to take a very early break which

25 would leave 65 minutes after the break, and then that you test the

Page 30560

1 equipment and the audio and that we would then resume at ten minutes past

2 1.00.

3 MS. EDGERTON: I would be grateful Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but Judge Moloto would like to say something

5 before we.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

7 Witness, at page 10, line 11 today, you are recorded as having

8 said that Kijevo was demolished but not to the same degree as a month ago

9 when I returned to Kijevo. A month ago would mean December 2015 [sic].

10 But on the same page, at line 18, you are recorded as having said

11 "a month later, when I came back," which would mean a month immediately

12 after the destruction. Which is the correct between the two? Did you go

13 back to Kijevo last month or did go back to Kijevo a month after the

14 destruction of Kijevo?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that Kijevo was destroyed

16 when the Yugoslav People's Army entered it on the 26th of August, but it

17 wasn't destroyed as much as a month later, after I came to Kijevo. So it

18 was a month later that. That was the second part of what I said.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you, sir.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we're resolving all kind of problems because I

21 do understand that the audio is functioning now as well. So therefore I

22 suggest that we continue for the time being.

23 I don't know for how long your cross-examination.

24 MS. EDGERTON: I anticipate somewhere around 40 minutes, barring

25 no other issues.

Page 30561

1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So it could even be that take then a late

2 break after that. But let's first then proceed.

3 We'll now play the audio which Ms. Edgerton announced a few

4 minutes ago, Mr. Sabljic.

5 [Audiotape played]

6 MS. EDGERTON: And, for the record, time code -- ending time code

7 of the clip is 5:28:4.

8 Q. Now the next one, the next very --

9 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, pardon me. We have to play it again with my

10 colleagues in the booth.

11 [Audiotape played]

12 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Ratko Mladic: Everything is

13 blocked. Here. Let me get you updated on the situation. Listen.

14 "Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav: Yes?

15 "Ratko Mladic: We have completely encircled Zadar, from all four

16 sides. The navy is firing from the sea, the airforce from the air, we

17 from the ground.

18 "Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav: Yes.

19 "Ratko Mladic: We have carried out a successful operation, we

20 have entered the town. The only thing left for them to do is to

21 surrender completely.

22 "Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav: Yes.

23 "Ratko Mladic: And to release Sibenik and Zadar and Split.

24 "Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav: Yes.

25 "Ratko Mladic: If they do not agree to that and do not do as we

Page 30562

1 dictate, we will continue with operations.

2 "Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav: Yes.

3 "Ratko Mladic: Destruction of Zadar and then the destruction of

4 the rest of the towns. We can do that.

5 "Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav: Yes."

6 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. Now I'll just move on to the second

7 excerpt, from the same tape cassette, by the way, and it's an excerpt

8 from a conversation between General Mladic and a man who's one of his

9 subordinates but he's not been identified yet, and it's

10 65 ter number 01643e. Page 23 in English.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Now earlier you indicated the time codes for the

12 beginning and the end. Do you intend to do the same?

13 MS. EDGERTON: Absolutely. And the time code for this one is

14 01:34.

15 JUDGE ORIE: That's the start.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Correct.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

18 [Audiotape played]

19 MS. EDGERTON: And the closing time code is 1:49:02 for this

20 excerpt. If we could now play it again.

21 [Audiotape played]

22 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Right, right. Continue to defend

23 yourselves. Some negotiations are being conducted in Zadar, they asked

24 us to halt further fire. We have placed Zadar in a noose. We were

25 hitting it for two and a half days from the air, from the ground and from

Page 30563

1 the sea and we have burst into the town from all sides.

2 "All right, all right. We will stay in touch (unintelligible)

3 information on how to continue so that we can do this specifically

4 tomorrow."

5 MS. EDGERTON: And then one final conversation, 65 ter number

6 01643c, pages 26 and 27 in English. And the beginning time code for this

7 excerpt, which is an excerpt of a conversation between Mladic and one of

8 his subordinates named Marko, is 03:51.

9 [Audiotape played]

10 MS. EDGERTON: End of the time code for the end of the clip is

11 04:17:03.

12 [Audiotape played]

13 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Ratko Mladic: That's right. Say

14 hello to him too, say - Mladic has the firing data down and is telling

15 you that Kijevo will be a garden of flowers compared to what you will

16 experience if you should touch me.

17 "Marko (surname unknown): Clear.

18 "Ratko Mladic: Maximum supplies. Above your quota.

19 "Marko (surname unknown): Clear. They have not actually touched

20 us these past two or three days - nothing.

21 "Ratko Mladic: They dare not touch you at all because that is my

22 quota and for Split too I will strike, I have began to hack away at

23 Dubrovnik. Cheers.

24 "Marko (surname unknown): All right. We'll be in touch. Bye.

25 "Ratko Mladic: Stay strong.

Page 30564

1 Marko (surname unknown): All right."

2 MS. EDGERTON:

3 Q. Now you've heard everything okay, Mr. Sabljic? You've been able

4 to hear everything clearly?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. So you would agree with me that what you've heard is

7 Mladic saying he has ringed Zadar. He said that, right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And he's shelling Zadar?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And he's expressly relying, when he is discussing his military

12 actions, his intended military actions against Zadar with his

13 subordinates, he is expressly relying on the fact that everybody knew

14 about the destruction of Kijevo; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that his intention is to destroy Zadar and the destruction in

17 Kijevo will be a flower garden compared to what Zadar is going to feel;

18 right? That's what you heard.

19 A. I am hearing this for the first time.

20 Q. You heard General Mladic say Kijevo -- and I'll give you the

21 exact words again. You heard General Mladic say:

22 "Kijevo will be a garden of flowers compared to what you will

23 experience if you should touch me."

24 Right?

25 A. Yes, I heard that.

Page 30565

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have those three excerpts, please,

3 Your Honours, 65 ter number 01643c, d, and e as Prosecution Exhibits

4 please.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

6 MR. LUKIC: Just for the record --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

8 MR. LUKIC: -- we always object to admission of intercepts, so we

9 will object this time as well.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And again here on the basis? The witness identified

11 that he recognised the voice of Mr. Mladic. That's at least what I heard

12 him say.

13 MR. LUKIC: If -- I -- I don't -- at this moment since we had a

14 problem with the -- locating the documents used now in the

15 cross-examination, I cannot confirm date -- date frame or time-frame,

16 actually, and dates, so it's hard for me to actually now not object.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whether that's an admissibility issue is

18 another matter. But let me just consult with my colleagues.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: In order to give you time to develop your

21 objections, Mr. Lukic, the Chamber exceptionally will MFI it and not at

22 this moment insist on --

23 MR. LUKIC: I just want to inform the Chamber that I just got

24 DVDs with these recordings.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll -- you have, although limited, time to

Page 30566

1 further develop your objections. It -- the -- Ms. Edgerton, when was the

2 Defence aware of this audio to be used with this witness?

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 MS. EDGERTON: With our cross-examination list when the witness

5 took the stand, which is our practice. And just by way --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm just wondering --

7 MS. EDGERTON: Okay.

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- whether -- at what time Mr. Lukic has had

9 already.

10 And, of course, there is always some -- you never know what will

11 happen in cross-examination, Mr. Lukic.

12 But at this, moment we will MFI it.

13 Madam Registrar, the number would be?

14 THE REGISTRAR: 01643d receives MFI P7052, 01653e receives MFI

15 P7053, and 01643c receives MFI P7054, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ORIE: The three audio clips are MFI'd in accordance with

17 the numbers just read out by Madam Registrar.

18 Mr. Lukic, you are aware that there is a fair chance that we will

19 already would conclude the evidence of this witness today, so therefore

20 please keep this in mind when further thinking about objections.

21 Ms. Edgerton.

22 MS. EDGERTON: And just way of assistance to Mr. Lukic, these are

23 actually not intercepted conversations. These are excerpts from the

24 audiotapes. So they're tape-recorded conversations that were found in

25 the Mr. Mladic premises in 2010. Just so he is perfectly clear, and ...

Page 30567

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

2 MS. EDGERTON: And one final thing that might abbreviate things

3 later: Two excerpts from this have already been admitted as P1958 and

4 P1959, I think.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, thank you.

7 Q. And, now, Mr. Sabljic, as a journalist, did you -- did you by any

8 chance cover the Bosnian Serb Assembly session, the 16th Session, on the

9 12th of May, 1992?

10 A. No. I never covered, nor was it my task to cover the work of the

11 parliament of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and then

12 later the parliament of Republika Srpska.

13 Q. Okay. I'm going to show you actually a copy of the -- the -- the

14 transcript of those proceedings.

15 MS. EDGERTON: It's P431. And when we get the document, I'd like

16 us to go to e-court page 42 in English and page 35 in B/C/S.

17 Q. Because there General Mladic talks about the success of the

18 operation in Kijevo.

19 MS. EDGERTON: P431.

20 Q. Mr. Sabljic, do you see something on the screen in front of you

21 because I don't, so I just want to check that you at least have something

22 in front of you?

23 A. I have the English version on my right side, but it doesn't seem

24 to be a translation of the text that I see in the Serbian.

25 MS. EDGERTON: In Serbian, it should be page -- B/C/S page 35,

Page 30568

1 about ten lines from the top I'd like you to go to, and we'll see if

2 we've got this accurately. And in English, we're looking at about 20

3 lines from the bottom going up.

4 Q. Now, do you see -- and this is General Mladic -- oh. This is

5 General Mladic talking, and he -- he talks about the -- the success of

6 the operation in Kijevo and he uses it as an example of how things should

7 be handled. And do you see where he says it would be absolutely out of

8 the question to have 1.000 commanders in one zone. The Knin Corps was

9 successful because under a single command in the zone of the corps were

10 the JNA, the Territorial Defence forces, and Martic's people -- Martic's

11 police, pardon me. And then he says: "Isn't that right, Martic?" And

12 then he continues and says:

13 "And because he and I, I call him and say give me 40 policemen

14 here at Kijevo and you took part in the fighting, isn't that right,

15 Milan, and we did what we had planned, and we planned, and we will have

16 artillery here and this artillery acts. Comrades and gentlemen,"

17 referring to Sarajevo, he says, "the artillery cannot continue acting as

18 it has up to now for two reasons ..."

19 And then I'd like to go own to another quote.

20 MS. EDGERTON: In English, page 36, line 6, and in B/C/S, page

21 29, two lines from the bottom.

22 And we could get through this quote, and then I could ask the

23 questions after the break, Your Honour.

24 Q. General Mladic says -- about Sarajevo, he says:

25 "That's not how you win a war. If you want to make the Muslims

Page 30569

1 surrender, 300 guns must be densely planted around Sarajevo" --

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Where can we find that?

3 MS. EDGERTON: The note that I've made for myself is that it's on

4 page 36, line 6, so I think we need to --

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In English or B/C/S?

6 MS. EDGERTON: In the English. And it's -- yeah, I think I've

7 got it right, Your Honours. It's very dense text.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And in B/C/S text you should direct the attention

9 of the witness to the right line.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Page 29, two lines from the bottom. And I see it

11 there in front of me in B/C/S as well, but in B/C/S we'll have to watch

12 because we'll have to go over to the next page very quickly.

13 Q. So there, Mladic says:

14 "This isn't how you win a war. If we want to make the Muslims

15 surrender, 300 guns must be densely" --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Now we have to move to the next page.

17 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, thank you, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Because the 300 are the last line in B/C/S.

19 MS. EDGERTON:

20 Q. "... must be densely planted around Sarajevo of calibre ranging

21 from Zolja 40 to 64-millimetres to Orkan and P-65 rockets. And Sarajevo,

22 I don't need any applause, mate, I'm not doing it for that or for

23 recognition, I am just doing it to avenge the bones of my dead comrades.

24 Because when I think of them, I cannot speak. I will tell you what

25 course of action I took at Zadar."

Page 30570

1 So maybe I could just give you a couple of seconds to just follow

2 that passage.

3 MS. EDGERTON: And, Your Honours, I can ask the question after

4 the break and then conclude very quickly after that.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you put the question now already and

6 then ...

7 MS. EDGERTON: No problem, Your Honours.

8 Q. So what -- what you see here in this 16th Assembly Session,

9 Mr. Sabljic, is Mladic's disposition towards settled areas during war;

10 right? He refers to Kijevo, he refers to Zadar, and he's suggesting

11 doing the same thing, using the same principles. Fair?

12 A. You know what? Ratko Mladic is a soldier, a high-ranking

13 officer, and he was dealing with the military skills. These are his

14 views, his position, his opinions. I'm only talking about what I saw in

15 Kijevo. This was said at a meeting, a session of the Republika Srpska

16 parliament. If it's correct for the artillery to be positioned around a

17 town or not, that's something I don't know. I know how to write, to

18 write what I see. I only saw General Ratko Mladic once in Kijevo, and

19 today you are talking to me about three intercepts, five or six different

20 pages. I don't know what's there. I only saw him once when he met at

21 noon with Milan Martic in the centre of Kijevo, and I never saw him

22 again. I can accept this as his military war time doctrine, as a job

23 that he is qualified for, but I don't understand it in the same way that

24 you don't understand it, perhaps. I don't know.

25 Q. And his doctrine is: Close co-ordination with local Serbs, a

Page 30571

1 single command, and ringing cities and using artillery against them.

2 That's what we've read and heard in these intercepts and in this excerpt

3 from the assembly session, isn't it?

4 MR. LUKIC: Objection.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

6 MR. LUKIC: We can read it ourselves as many times --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How does this relate, Ms. Edgerton, to the

8 statement of the witness? I mean, we are here -- you are here to

9 cross-examine the witness - that is, to test his evidence and to, even

10 under one of the Rules you may elicit further evidence - but the witness

11 says: I described the facts I observed.

12 Now -- so the first question, if you put to him whether the

13 witness has any knowledge about these conversations recorded, whether the

14 witness has any knowledge of what was said during parliament. He is --

15 as a matter of fact, he said: I'd never covered that. So therefore, to

16 put this to the witness and more or less get a kind of an opinion about

17 what that all is on the basis of materials he may not be familiar with,

18 I -- I do not understand exactly how this works in terms of

19 cross-examination.

20 Could you clarify? Because the witness couldn't tell us anything

21 about the conversations. What he said is: Do you hear him say this and

22 that? Well, we don't need a witness for that because we can hear it

23 ourselves as well. So therefore, I'm wondering what actually we are

24 listening to in this cross-examination.

25 MS. EDGERTON: I'll -- understood, Your Honour. I'm going to

Page 30572

1 withdraw these last questions.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay.

3 MS. EDGERTON: And --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we have done that before the break.

5 MS. EDGERTON: And nothing further, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Nothing further. No further -- this concludes then

7 your cross-examination.

8 I see Mr. Mladic is seeking to consult with counsel. He can do

9 so ...

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, what we'd like to know is whether there

12 will be any re-examination.

13 MR. LUKIC: Less then ten minutes. Five. In between five and

14 ten minutes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll do that after the break. And

16 there's a fair chance, Witness, that you will -- that we'll be able to

17 conclude your testimony today.

18 We first take a break and we expect you back in 20 minutes.

19 We resume at 20 minutes to -- you may follow the usher.

20 No loud speaking, Mr. Mladic, you know the rules.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 1.18 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 1.44 p.m.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, it's now time to be silent again.

Page 30579

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Zoric.

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 Q. Kindly tell us your name for the record. Do it slowly.

4 A. Milorad Zoric.

5 Q. Mr. Zoric, did you provide a statement to the Mladic Defence in

6 written form?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

9 call up 65 ter 1D01711.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Say the number again, Mr. Stojanovic.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D01711.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Zoric, you can see the text of a statement in front of you on

15 the screen. I'm sure you can also see a signature below the personal

16 data. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber whether you recognise your

17 signature on this piece of paper?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's now look at the last page

20 in the same document.

21 Mr. Zoric, do you recognise your signature and date on this page

22 of the statement?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Mr. Zoric, during the proofing, did you tell me that

25 you wanted to make several corrections and clarifications to your

Page 30580

1 statement?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Let's run through your suggestions. Let's look at paragraph 4.

4 Did you tell me that in paragraph 4 instead of "I learned from

5 the Muslims or "I found out from the Muslims," it should read --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, I need to repeat

8 the sentence as it should read.

9 Q. Instead of "I found out from the Muslims," you said that it

10 should read: "I found out from the security officers at the Bihac

11 barracks ..." Is that correct?

12 A. Yes. In the meantime, I have even remembered the name of those

13 officers.

14 Q. If necessary, you can give us the name of that one officer.

15 A. If necessary, his name was Slobodan Jankovic.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at

18 paragraph 7.

19 Q. Did you tell me that in the sixth sentence of this

20 statement [as interpreted], behind the word "according to JNA officer

21 statements," you wanted us to add the following words: "who at the time

22 came down-town in civilian clothes."

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at

Page 30581

1 paragraph 17.

2 Q. Mr. Zoric, do you feel the need to change something in here?

3 After the word -- or, rather, words "my mother," we should add the word:

4 "my wife who left Bihac together with me."

5 A. Yes, correct.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Say that again, Mr. Stojanovic. You say after the

7 word "my mother," you say my wife or -- or "and my wife."

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And my wife, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Could we please look at paragraph 19 now.

12 Q. Mr. Zoric, did you not suggest to me that it would be more

13 precise that in the first sentence you asked instead of the words

14 "throughout the war," it should say: "From the 27th of October, 1994,

15 until the end of the war"?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at

19 paragraph 21, please.

20 Q. Did you not tell me that the paragraph would be correct and more

21 precise if it were to state the following:

22 "I videotaped the statement of Karadzic and General Ninkovic

23 because General Mladic did not wish to give a statement for the media at

24 the assembly session in Sanski Most on the 14th of April, 1995, after

25 their differences in the assessment of the situation in the RS and the

Page 30582

1 VRS"?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the

3 microphone and repeat his answer.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your answer and speak into

5 the microphone, Witness.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this correction was correct,

7 as stated by Mr. Stojanovic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, does that replace the existing text in

9 paragraph 21?

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I was asking the witness.

12 But you agree that this replaces the original text of

13 paragraph 21?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Now, could I ask you the following. It is not more

16 accurate. It's just a totally different matter you are describing. What

17 made you sign a statement which deals with videotaped argument on -- in

18 Sanski Most on the 16th of February, and now you say it would be more

19 accurate to say that it is about a statement from other persons on the

20 14th of April, apparently in -- yes, still in Sanski Most.

21 What explains why suddenly a totally new thing appears to replace

22 the old text? What was wrong with the old text?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The old text is mistaken, it's

24 wrong. We waited all day for the session to finish. In our journalists'

25 or cameraman's jargon, there was a story that the situation was tense and

Page 30583

1 then we waited until the end. We didn't have the opportunity to enter

2 the actual hall during the session itself.

3 JUDGE ORIE: And was that on the 16th of February or was that on

4 the 14th of April?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 14th of April.

6 JUDGE ORIE: But have you not noticed earlier when you signed

7 this statement that you said something about what happened on the 16th of

8 February, and now there is something totally different that replaces what

9 was in the original text? Didn't you notice that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was some other events. It

11 was snowing that day. Usually it doesn't snow in April in our area, so I

12 kind of mixed those things up. Perhaps I wasn't completely focused and

13 so on. But, in my opinion, it doesn't change the situation much.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the change is that in one version of the

15 statement you tell us what happened on the 16th of February, an argument

16 between Karadzic and Mladic, and that now you tell us that something

17 happened on the 14th of April in which Mr. Mladic, at least, was not

18 videotaped on what he participated.

19 That's -- these are two entirely different things. Do you have

20 any explanation as to why the -- did you tell the Defence about the 16th

21 of February?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was convinced -- it's just the

23 fact that I wasn't focused on the 16th. As I said, every day I

24 videotaped some event or other, so it was my error that it was the

25 16th of February. On that day I didn't tape Mr. Mladic. He just walked

Page 30584

1 by us quite quickly. He was walking fast. He was -- seemed to be quite

2 angry, and that's how it was.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I think that I will

5 finish quite quickly.

6 Q. Sir, in paragraph 22 did you not indicate to me that after the

7 word "as a journalist," it should state: "as a journalist and

8 cameraman"?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now let's look at paragraph 36.

12 Q. Did you not tell me that in order to clarify and correct matters,

13 the text needed to be changed so that it reads the following:

14 "At the beginning of the war, on the 27th of May, 1992, my

15 neighbour set off to transport some goods from the village of Racic near

16 Bihac to Banja Luka and to bring food back from Banja Luka, joining a

17 column of military vehicles. They were intercepted in the village of

18 Pudin Han near Kljuc and six of them were killed."

19 Would that be more correct and a more precise reflection of your

20 statement?

21 A. Yes, it would be more correct.

22 Q. Thank you. And I will finish with paragraph 50. It's

23 paragraph 50, not 350. Thank you.

24 Did you not ask that in paragraph 50 here instead of the words

25 "at the end," it should state: "in early August 1995."

Page 30585

1 A. Correct, it should state the 5th of August, 1995.

2 Q. And now, Mr. Zoric, after making all these corrections, would you

3 give the same answers now to the questions as you gave then after you

4 have now given the solemn oath and would this statement be consistent

5 with your best recollection of the events as you recall them?

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your answer, Witness, and

8 speak into the microphone.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Witness, could you please repeat what you said for the transcript

11 as His Honour indicated that your answer was not recorded in the

12 transcript. Would you, today, after making these corrections, give

13 identical answers to the questions that were put to you then and would

14 that, after you have given the solemn oath in this courtroom, be a

15 reflection according to your best memory of what you were talking about?

16 A. It would be exactly like this. With all of these corrections

17 that we have made, I would repeat the same answers now.

18 Q. Thank you, Witness.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I kindly ask to

20 tender the witness's statement, 65 ter number 1D01711. That is the

21 statement of Witness Milorad Zoric.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 1D01711 receives exhibit number

24 D877, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: D877 is admitted into evidence. We're at the time