150402IT

Page 34064

1 occurred in Kozarac also occurring elsewhere in the ARK; in this case, in

2 Krupa; right?

3 A. I had no chance to see what happened in the Krupa municipality,

4 but I believe that it was so if this man stated so.

5 Q. And below that we see President Karadzic begin to speak. Turning

6 to page 26 in the English, 24 in the B/C/S, after he has begun by saying

7 that he was always charmed by Mr. Vjestica, he says just a couple of

8 lines up from the end of the long paragraph:

9 "This is what was said about the control of borders. We will

10 have barbed wire for ten years. We know that."

11 Now, that's a reflection of the intent that the people who had

12 moved out of these areas in response to Mr. Vjestica's concern wouldn't

13 be able, in fact, to come back; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I see I'm right around the ten minutes

16 that I'd projected. This I think should be able to be added to P2508,

17 which is excerpts from this session. We'll handle that, for efficiency,

18 later, and I'll have no further questions.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

20 Mr. Lukic, if you're ready for re-examination, you may proceed.

21 MR. LUKIC: Just half a minute, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the furniture first should be put in place.

23 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Erceg.

25 A. Good morning.

Page 34065

1 Q. I hope that we'll finish everything by 11.30 so that you may then

2 leave.

3 MR. LUKIC: Can we see P4337, please.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Erceg, you have seen this decision on the

5 formation of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you tell us about this list whether there is anyone in it

8 who is from a different Krajina municipality rather than from Banja Luka

9 or are all these people from Banja Luka?

10 A. Sajic, Kupresanin, they're all from Banja Luka.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 A. Possibly Kupresanin, he's from Circa, but that's 15 kilometres

13 from Banja Luka. He's from a village that's between Banja Luka and Srbac

14 but mostly it's Banja Luka.

15 Q. But the duties he discharged were in Banja Luka?

16 A. Yes, he was the president of the assembly in Banja Luka.

17 Q. On transcript page 34000, lines 14 to 16 - that's yesterday's

18 transcript - you said that at the meetings of the Crisis Staff people

19 from various municipalities were often in attendance.

20 A. Yes. Mostly presidents of Executive Councils and presidents of

21 municipalities and members of parties or of Crisis Staffs of those

22 municipalities.

23 Q. Did they actively participate in the work of the Crisis Staff in

24 the sense that they could vote?

25 A. They mostly made proposals. They informed us about the problems

Page 34066

1 in their municipalities and they participated in discussion but they did

2 not vote.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. LUKIC: Can we now have 1D2837, please.

5 Q. [Interpretation] It has to do with paragraph 85 of your

6 statement. This document was shown to you in connection with that

7 paragraph. You said that it was a completely autonomous decision of the

8 Crisis Staff of the Sanski Most municipality in paragraph 85. The

9 Prosecutor showed you some documents relating to that.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 2 of this document, or

11 perhaps even page 3. Yes, it's page 3 in B/C/S and page 2 in English.

12 Q. In the introductory part at the top of the page, let's see what

13 the formulations in the document are. The Crisis Staff of the Serbian

14 municipality Sanski Most at its meeting held on 18 May 1992 pursuant to

15 its conclusion under item 1, issued on 20 May 1992 the following order.

16 From the formulations of this document, can we conclude whether

17 it was issued on the basis of some other document or order of the Crisis

18 Staff or was it an autonomous document of the Crisis Staff of the Serbian

19 municipality of Sanski Most?

20 A. It's a document which was issued pursuant to the autonomous

21 decision of the same organ, so it does not rely on any outside document.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, if we make such an important

23 matter of "autonomous," then I would have invite both parties to tell me

24 exactly what they understand by "autonomous," because otherwise we lose

25 ourselves in a semantic battle which finally may not assist the Chamber.

Page 34067

1 Mr. Lukic, I am not addressing you or you especially, but I'm

2 also addressing Mr. Traldi in this respect.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 [Interpretation] So -- I have finished with this document. If

6 Mr. Traldi wants to deal with it more, he will have some additional time

7 in the end.

8 Let us now please have a look at P7283.

9 [In English] I would kindly ask to provide Mr. Erceg with his

10 statement from yesterday so he could --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could the usher assist, please.

12 MR. LUKIC: Yeah.

13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Erceg, I will ask you something relating to

14 paragraph 80 of your statement. My learned friend Traldi yesterday asked

15 you something connected to the same paragraph and also to the document

16 that we see on our screens right now.

17 So we can see this document from the Banja Luka Crisis Staff.

18 The date is 10 June 1992. "Conclusions," and under item 4, we see that

19 it reads:

20 "Only children, women and the elderly may move out voluntarily,

21 that is to say, of their own free will, from the Autonomous Region of

22 Krajina."

23 My learned friend suggested to you that only Muslims and Croats

24 were implied here, and I will ask you the following:

25 MR. TRALDI: I'd object to that characterisation I didn't suggest

Page 34068

1 it applied only to Muslims and Croats though I did suggest that it

2 applied to Muslims and Croats.

3 MR. LUKIC: Let us see. At yesterday's transcript at page 34012,

4 I will read the question of Mr. Traldi. At line 5, it says:

5 "This conclusion restricts the Muslims and Croats who are allowed

6 to go to women, children, and elderly people ..."

7 So we find that --

8 JUDGE ORIE: There is a suggestion in it, and not more, not less

9 than that, because it's emphasised that it applies to Muslims and Croats

10 and it doesn't say that applies to others; although, the language

11 Mr. Traldi used does not exclude that. But it could easily be understood

12 as the text being focusing, especially with this questions, as focusing

13 especially on Muslims and Croats.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Erceg, do you see in this document that a

17 distinction is made anywhere between Serbs and non-Serbs?

18 A. I don't see such a distinction anywhere, and I'll tell you the

19 historical truth. In the Second World War when it finished, 700.000

20 people from Krajina moved to Vojvodina. There were strong family ties.

21 I don't know exactly, but I think that between 20 and 30 per cent of the

22 threatened Serbian population moved out to Vojvodina in Serbia. So it's

23 not true that --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I stop you there. You'd like to leave in

25 time.

Page 34069

1 Mr. Lukic asked you whether can you see something in the text.

2 Now, would you please focus your answer on that. Mr. Lukic, I take it

3 that it is a matter of seeing what the text says, and I even wonder

4 whether the parties could not agree on that, that the text itself doesn't

5 make the distinction.

6 MR. LUKIC: We can agree on this immediately, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.

8 MR. TRALDI: I also agree that the text is a blanket proposition.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on.

10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. [Interpretation] In this text, under item 4, children, women, and

12 the elderly are enumerated. Only men liable for military service are not

13 included. That's how we see this item 4. That's why I would ask you

14 whether Serbian men could move out of the region of the ARK.

15 A. It was a bit difficult, but, yes, those who were military

16 conscripts could not; others could.

17 Q. Yes, that is why I said those who were fit for military service.

18 Who would Serbian men who wanted to leave the territory of the Krajina

19 report to? Did they need to receive any permission; and from whom, if

20 you know?

21 A. Yes, a permission was needed for a while. I'm not sure if it was

22 needed throughout the war, but for a while it was necessary, and I'm not

23 sure exactly what sort of a permission it was and whether it -- you

24 needed to get it from military or civilian authorities.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could I --

Page 34070

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. From what you know, though you told us that you didn't know too

3 much about military issues, was it possible to move freely across the

4 confrontation line?

5 A. Well, no.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I have one additional question.

7 You said that for Serbs needed, at least for a certain period of

8 time, they needed permission to leave as well.

9 Now, were the -- was the type of permission given to Serbs,

10 Croats, and Muslims, exactly the same, and were the criteria applied in

11 order to obtain such a permission the same for all three groups as well?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not aware of the exact way

13 that the permissions were formulated, so I couldn't tell you that.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed --

15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. On page 34013 of yesterday's transcript - and you don't have to

19 search for that; it's just for the record - you were asked by my learned

20 friend Mr. Traldi in lines 5 and 6, you were aware of the existence of

21 camps in ARK. You said, in line 7: "Yes, military camps ..." You said

22 that you once visited Trnopolje and once you visited Omarska. You went

23 to Trnopolje with Lord, an Englishman, as you said.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know who gave you the permission to visit Trnopolje? Who

Page 34071

1 did you receive that permission from?

2 A. No permission was needed at the time. I think that travel

3 between Banja Luka and Prijedor was normal. We went in Lord's car. I'm

4 not sure what organisation it was. I just heard it was a Lord. We went

5 with them. And as for a permission, I don't think that a permission was

6 needed at the time. Perhaps the reason was that an international

7 organisation had organised the trip.

8 Q. Thank you. Let us please look shortly at P3758.

9 This is the book of minutes from the session of the Kljuc

10 Municipal Assembly Crisis Staff. This document was shown to you

11 yesterday, so let's look at page 2.

12 The Crisis Staff meeting held on the 27th of May, 1992. And it

13 reads:

14 "The Crisis Staff adopted the following conclusions:

15 "1. Legitimacy was given to all decisions of the Crisis Staff of

16 the autonomous region."

17 If the Kljuc Crisis Staff did not give legitimacy to the

18 decisions of the ARK Crisis Staff, what could the ARK Crisis Staff do?

19 Could it replace anyone? Could it punish someone from the Kljuc Crisis

20 Staff?

21 A. No, it couldn't because they were completely autonomous with

22 regard to the Crisis Staff of the ARK; if they wanted it to be so, and

23 they were free to act autonomously.

24 JUDGE ORIE: What is true for the parties, of course, is also

25 true for the witness.

Page 34072

1 You are using the word "autonomous," which has various meanings,

2 and it may create some confusion. I leave it to the parties whether they

3 want to seek further clarification or whether we leave it as it is.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps "of their own initiative"

5 instead of "autonomous."

6 JUDGE ORIE: It's your testimony. I can't tell you which of the

7 meanings you want to use.

8 Please proceed.

9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

10 Q. [Interpretation] In paragraph 94 of your statement, you say:

11 "Of course, there were situations when municipalities did not see

12 my decisions through, in which case nothing happened. If a municipality

13 asked of us to provide something and we did not have that, nothing

14 happened. If we asked a municipality to do something, which they could

15 not, again, nothing ensued."

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, the text you read was not identical

17 with the English translation I have in front of me.

18 You said there were situations when municipalities "did not see

19 my decisions through." Instead of that, I read: "did not carry out my

20 decisions."

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreters' booth

22 does not have the original statement. We were interpreting Mr. Lukic's

23 words.

24 MR. LUKIC: And, Your Honour, I was reading from B/C/S version

25 that was signed --

Page 34073

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should call up the statement of the witness

2 to avoid these problems.

3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. Let's have D982 on our screens, please.

4 Let's try with page 25. We need paragraph 90.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We need 94.

6 MR. LUKIC: So the next page, please, in B/C/S. Thank you. And

7 probably page 15 in English. Yes.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you need 90 or do you need 94.

9 MR. LUKIC: 94. I'm sorry. I -- yeah, I corrected it, 94. So

10 let's go --

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Page 17 in the English.

12 MR. LUKIC: In English 17 and next page in B/C/S.

13 Q. I will read again in B/C/S:

14 "[Interpretation] Of course, there were instances when

15 municipalities did not carry out my decisions, in which case nothing

16 would happen. If a municipality asked us for something that we did not

17 have, nothing would happen. And if we asked a municipality for something

18 that they could not provide, again nothing happened."

19 MR. LUKIC: I think it corresponds, the translation corresponds

20 now. Thank you.

21 I apologise to the booths. I did not provide them with the

22 statements. I thought that they receive it automatically from our Case

23 Manager.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Concerning this paragraph of your statement, I

25 wanted to show you another document, P6949.

Page 34074

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, while we're waiting for that, I'm

2 wondering what you want to do with -- I think it was 1D2837. Do we have

3 that ...

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ORIE: It was not tendered, I take it. That was with

6 the -- where you asked from the formulations of this document that you

7 could conclude whether it was issued on the basis of some other document

8 or order. And since you referred to it in rather vague terms, I wonder

9 whether it would not be better for the evaluation of the evidence to have

10 it in evidence or [Overlapping speakers] ...

11 MR. LUKIC: We are just checking. If it's not tendered, I would

12 tender it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I think what I see is that you then went on wanting

14 to have a look at P7283. But 1D2837 I think was not tendered. If you

15 intend --

16 Mr. Traldi.

17 MR. TRALDI: This is the one I think that we'd suggested was a

18 duplicate of P2413, and Mr. Lukic didn't tender as a result with a lot

19 with the associated exhibits. Of course, I'd stand to be corrected if

20 I'm misremembering.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could we then have that document on our screens so

22 that we can verify whether it's a duplicate.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Traldi, could you please repeat the number.

24 It's not properly recorded.

25 MR. TRALDI: Sorry. P2413.

Page 34075

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have that on our screen for a moment.

2 MR. TRALDI: And one more time so the transcript is correct:

3 2413.

4 MR. LUKIC: It's on our list of associated exhibits.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Is this the one, Mr. Lukic, you're ... referring to

6 a while ago. You only paid attention to whether it was issued on the

7 basis of another document or whether it was not ...

8 [Defence counsel confer]

9 JUDGE ORIE: If you please try to verify that. We'll --

10 meanwhile, we'll move on and you have an opportunity during the break to

11 do so.

12 MR. LUKIC: We'll do it during the break, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll wait. Please proceed.

14 MR. LUKIC: So can we have P6949, please.

15 [Defence counsel confer]

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. We see here that on the 22nd May, 1992, it was ordered in keeping

18 with the decision of the ARK Assembly in the -- in all municipalities of

19 the ARK, standing operational duty -- or permanent operational duty is

20 being introduced.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. It was sent to all companies and social organisations.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What does it actually mean?

25 A. It means to municipal bodies and workers' organisations as well

Page 34076

1 as other institutions that were in existence in the municipalities, such

2 as schools, courts, and so on.

3 Q. What kind of mechanism did you have at your disposal to implement

4 it by force or to sanction unless it is implemented by the municipal

5 organs in Kljuc, Prijedor, or in the companies themselves in the ARK

6 municipalities?

7 A. We had no authority. It was purely voluntary with the

8 presumption that they will abide by what was prescribed, if necessary.

9 If there was no need, they decided on their own to terminate a particular

10 activity.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could ...

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Let's briefly look at another document --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, could the witness explain by what

15 he meant by "it was purely voluntary." What was voluntary?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If a municipality was in danger for

17 whatever reason, this decision was supposed to be implemented. If there

18 was no threat, then this decision was no longer implemented or the

19 measures were stopped. It primarily dealt with bordering municipalities

20 close to the front lines.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Where does it say so in this document?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was understood.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say it -- it's not expressed in document

24 but that's how you understood it.

25 And then you said:

Page 34077

1 "If there was no need, they decided on their own ..."

2 Who's "they" in this context?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If this was the ARK Crisis Staff,

4 it implied the Crisis Staff of the municipality as the body who would

5 decide on, for example, introducing a curfew or not, or some other kind

6 of duty.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm trying to find where the -- where the

8 duties are described in this document exactly.

9 The first duty I see is that the Crisis Staff is to provide

10 continuous monitoring of the situation giving additional instructions,

11 decisions, and orders.

12 I have some difficulty understanding what you meant when you say,

13 well, you could -- you could not implement it any further. Does that

14 mean that you stopped monitoring?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Times were such that situation

16 changed from one day to the next. We never knew what the next day would

17 be like, so this was extremely flexible and this was the way we felt

18 things should be done. If there was any potential threat, action was to

19 be undertaken either through operational duty or the introduction of

20 curfew or some other measures that would remain in place in a particular

21 municipality for as long as they were necessary.

22 So all documents pertaining to that topic could not be put in a

23 time-frame. They were simply drafted so that we could appropriately

24 address the situation as it arose in a particular municipality. Twenty

25 years down the road, I can't recall any specific details about it, but

Page 34078

1 this would be my general statement when I considered the situation at the

2 time.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't find any of that in the text of the

4 document itself. We can move on. But if you have any comment on it,

5 then you are free to give it.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And we don't have to wait

8 for the break. We just actually -- my colleague checked that 1D2837,

9 65 ter number, is duplicate of P2413.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that information. Please proceed.

11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

12 Can we have P7285, please.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: P...

14 MR. LUKIC: P2 -- sorry. P7285.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Erceg, before us is a document we saw

16 yesterday. My learned friend Mr. Traldi, at transcript page 34020, asked

17 you the following, in line 18. I will read out his question in English

18 and your answer. I quote:

19 [In English] "Now this was done pursuant to a decision of the

20 ARK; right?

21 "A. I'm not sure about that. I don't know if there was an ARK

22 decision."

23 [Interpretation] Looking at the document, do you find any mention

24 of any decision arriving from the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

25 A. No.

Page 34079

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.

2 MR. TRALDI: I'd object on the grounds that this misstates the

3 witness's evidence about the document, and what I have in mind

4 specifically is transcript page 34021, lines 12 through 14.

5 MR. LUKIC: I think I read from the transcript too. But I'll let

6 my learned friend to clarify it after I finish. I have the answer given

7 by this witness that there is no trace and it's, I think, visible from

8 the document that it does not mention anything from the ARK as a base for

9 this document. I'll move on.

10 Q. [Interpretation] There was something Judge Orie mentioned that I

11 would like to follow up. Did you monitor the implementation of curfew in

12 the respective municipalities?

13 A. No. But at the next meeting of the Crisis Staff or some other

14 kind of meeting, we were discussing the situation to see whether anything

15 needed to be done and whether there was any need for assistance. So we

16 discussed these things at meetings, but there was no need for us to be

17 officially notified of the beginning or end of a particular activity.

18 Q. If you believed that a certain Krajina municipality had to

19 introduce a curfew and they refused, could you remove someone from their

20 position or discipline?

21 A. No, neither of those. We believed that they were in a position

22 to judge what was best for them and that that was the right solution at

23 the moment.

24 Q. You were asked about a particular document - that is actually

25 P7286 - with regards to Kalinovik and a decision concerning the

Page 34080

1 implementation of a republican-level decision in that municipality.

2 Were you ever in a situation to see any such republican-level

3 decisions being implemented at Kalinovik?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did the municipality of Kalinovik report to you about their work?

6 A. No.

7 MR. LUKIC: If we can see P7288, please.

8 Q. Mr. Traldi showed you this document where we see that a dispatch

9 arrived from Sarajevo to the CSB in Banja Luka.

10 MR. LUKIC: It's on the second page of this document, so we

11 need ...

12 Q. [Interpretation] Let me ask you this: You, personally, in the

13 time-period you referred to before the creation of the corridor, as the

14 president of the Executive Council and a member of the Crisis Staff, what

15 was your communication like with Sarajevo and Pale, if you remember?

16 A. There was basically no communication. We could communicate only

17 if somebody from Pale, from the bodies there, came to Belgrade when I

18 happened to be there because I had to go there frequently. Then we would

19 meet and discuss particular topics. Other than that, there was no other

20 official possibility.

21 Q. On transcript page 34032, Mr. Traldi mentioned or asked whether

22 the Serbian municipalities were envisaged by the constitution of the

23 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time. Did ARK ever hold

24 the prefix Srpska; Serbian?

25 A. No. I'm not sure how it was defined under the constitution, but

Page 34081

1 I don't think it included any need for constitutional arrangements in

2 terms of regional distribution. It was understood that it was to be a

3 Serbian Krajina, but it did not have that attribute in its name.

4 Q. Very well. We won't go any deeper into any constitutional

5 discussions. Yesterday, Mr. Traldi read out a part of your interview

6 provided to the OTP. It was transcript page 34039. He focused, in

7 particular, on Mr. Brdjanin having good co-operation with the republican

8 level. You were then asked who with exactly, and you said: Well, it was

9 a personal matter. He co-operated well with the SDS president and

10 deputies in the assembly. They were on good terms. You were unable to

11 say how important it was, but you did say that there was a common goal

12 they all shared. Then Mr. Traldi asked you whether you stand by that,

13 and you confirmed as much.

14 Let me ask you this now: In your view, what is the common goal

15 that united those people?

16 A. I had in mind the most important or the single goal, which was

17 that it should remain as part of Yugoslavia as it existed after Croatia

18 and Slovenia left. So that Republika Srpska would remain a part of

19 Yugoslavia.

20 At that time, when we had discussions with Alija Izetbegovic, we

21 were actually discussing the possibility of his being appointed the first

22 president of that new entity. We tried our utmost to remain within the

23 framework of Yugoslavia by using political means, of course.

24 Q. I'd like to show you P431. This document is the original minutes

25 of the Assembly of the Serbian People in BH. The date is --

Page 34082

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Lukic repeat the

2 date, please.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Held on 12 May, 1992. At transcript page 34046, part of English

5 page 20 was read out. It is on page 16 in the B/C/S.

6 MR. LUKIC: And 20 in English.

7 Q. [Interpretation] What was read out were the words of

8 Mr. Vjestica, where he says -- I will read it out:

9 "On the right-hand side of the Una river there are no more

10 Muslims left in the municipality of Bosanska Krupa. All of the

11 municipalities there were" --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Mr. Lukic will need to

13 indicate that place on the page. We are unable to find it at this speed.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I don't know how long it will be, but we

15 are close to the time for a break.

16 MR. LUKIC: Maybe it will help. Maybe I could find exactly where

17 on this page is. Now I am a bit lost.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps organise yourself and then let's deal

19 with it after the break.

20 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes, and we'd

22 like to see you back after that. You may follow the usher.

23 [The witness stands down]

24 JUDGE ORIE: However before the break I would like to briefly

25 address a matter of procedural hygiene, I would say, and that is the

Page 34086

1 request that the Court Officer be instructed to replace the existing

2 translation with the revised version and that the document be admitted.

3 This instruction is hereby given and P7287 is admitted into

4 evidence.

5 When I earlier said this morning that P3343 was admitted into

6 evidence, that was superfluous because it had been admitted already.

7 Only the English translation had to be replaced.

8 We'll now continue, Mr. Erceg. Mr. Lukic will now continue his

9 re-examination.

10 Mr. Lukic, may I take it that you'll conclude so much before

11 11.30 that Mr. Traldi has an opportunity to put some of --

12 MR. LUKIC: I spoke with my colleague, Mr. Traldi, so ...

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Booths were correct. We did not have correct page in B/C/S. We

16 should need the next page, 17 in B/C/S. And we are on the correct page

17 in English, only we'll need the bottom page of English version.

18 In B/C/S it's 17th line from the top, and in English version it's

19 line 8 from the bottom. The very end of the line in English, and last

20 third of line in B/C/S.

21 Q. [Interpretation] So it's noted that Mr. Vjestica said:

22 "On the right bank of the Una river there are no Muslims in the

23 Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa. All the enclaves that were

24 there, Rapusa, Veliki Vrbovik, Ostroznica, Babic, Muslim Jasenica, and

25 Zavir, we have evacuated them so that there will be none there for the

Page 34087

1 duration of war operations. Will they have a place to return to? I

2 think not [sic] as our president told us the happy news that the right

3 bank of the Una is the border."

4 And I will read on from the transcript from page --

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before do you so, just one clarification.

6 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You read "I think not," in that way it was

8 interpreted to us, but in the English translation we read "I think it is

9 unlikely" after "our president told us."

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Sometimes we correct the

11 written translation when we think it's not the best.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. [Interpretation] So I will read from the transcript my learned

15 friend Traldi's question, page 34046, line 13, and I quote:

16 [In English] "Q. Now, what Mr. Vjestica is saying here is that

17 because of the territorial objective, the fourth objective set out by

18 President Karadzic, the Muslims who have left that area won't be able to

19 come back; right?"

20 "A. Yes, but it is based on a fact that in the materials in

21 possession of the Muslim and Croat side is also written that the Serbs

22 who had left the areas that they control have no right to come back

23 either.

24 "Q. So is it right, then, that you agree that the policy was

25 that Muslims and Croats who left couldn't come back but you assert that

Page 34088

1 Muslims and Croats, their authorities had similar policies about Serbs

2 who had left. Is that your evidence?

3 "A. Yes, yes."

4 It continues and question is, and I quote:

5 "Now, in paragraph 74 of your statement, you say, in pertinent

6 part about people who left that it's clear that everyone had the right to

7 their property even after moving out. Now, you don't really know whether

8 people who left maintained any right to their property, do you?

9 "A. I think that they had documentation which was sufficient at

10 the time stipulating that they can come back and keep their property,

11 especially since it was all recorded in land registers that had not been

12 tampered with during the war."

13 [Interpretation] In paragraph 102 of your statement, you say that

14 the property of those who had left Banja Luka was temporarily assigned to

15 others, that the property was listed so that it could be returned in full

16 to the rightful owner. This was a long introduction and excuse me for

17 that.

18 But I would now ask you the following during the war, during war

19 operations, are you aware of there having been any requests on part of

20 Muslims and Croats to return to the territory that was under the control

21 of the Serbian forces?

22 A. There were individual cases like that. I heard that at assembly

23 meetings. We would discuss all sorts of issues so I heard about this

24 too. So there were individual instances, yes.

25 Q. And do you know what was done then?

Page 34089

1 A. No, I wouldn't know any details about that, but there were such

2 requests.

3 Q. Were there requests for large-scale return?

4 A. I did not hear about any such instances at that time.

5 Q. And was anyone's return prevented after the war, if you know?

6 A. No.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I get clarification. The -- witness now you

8 are saying no. A few minutes ago you said I wouldn't know any details

9 about that. How do you know that they could -- they were not prevented

10 if you didn't know what happened?

11 MR. LUKIC: This is after the war, Your Honour, I asked.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have understood that the Defence

13 counsel asked me two different questions relating to two different

14 time-periods, as far as I understood. Maybe I have misunderstood.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. My apologies.

16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. [Interpretation] And just briefly, because we should wrap it up

18 soon, on transcript page 34050, my learned friend Traldi asked you the

19 following, and I shall quote:

20 [In English] "And you were aware that there were forced

21 expulsions of Muslims and Croats from ARK; right?"

22 "A. Yes. But please, not forced, judging by the records provided

23 by any institution, but one neighbour would expel another for God knows

24 which reasons. I'm just stating that as an example."

25 Can you give us an example from your life from that time of a

Page 34090

1 situation in which you were present when someone tried to expel somebody

2 else or did you have a chance to take part in that and in what way? Just

3 briefly.

4 A. Yes, there were some such instances. A specific example was the

5 occasion when I saved a Croat so that he wouldn't have to leave his flat.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Erceg. This was all that we had for you. Now my

7 learned friend Mr. Traldi will ask you a few questions.

8 I don't know if they informed you, I couldn't do that, I should

9 see you before you leave The Hague, please.

10 MR. TRALDI: And in light of the witness's schedule, I'll try to

11 be very, very efficient. I expect I won't need more than five minutes.

12 If we could have first 65 ter 22817a. This a transcript of a

13 video. For efficiency, I'm just going to go to the part of the

14 transcript I'm interested in.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, before we look at that. I would seek one

16 clarification of the last answer the witness gave in response to a

17 question.

18 You're recorded as having answered:

19 "Yes, there were some such instances. A specific example was the

20 occasion when I saved a Croat so that he wouldn't have to leave his

21 flat."

22 Who did that?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A Croat, Ivan Vortnik.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And who saved him that he wouldn't have to leave his

25 flat? Oh, he --

Page 34095

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 WITNESS: PERO ANDRIC

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Andric. Please be seated.

6 Mr. Andric, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic. You find

7 Mr. Stojanovic to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I would ask you to speak slowly and tell us

12 your full name.

13 A. Pero Andric.

14 Q. Would you please tell the Court when and where you were born?

15 A. 11th February, 1971; Srebrenica municipality; Pribicevac, place

16 of birth.

17 Q. Mr. Andric, please tell the Chamber what education you have.

18 A. I'm an electrician by occupation.

19 Q. Where do you currently work?

20 A. I currently work at the lead and zinc mine Sase, Srebrenica.

21 Q. Do you have any military education, Mr. Andric?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Up until the breakout of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you

24 serve the compulsory military service?

25 A. Yes.

Page 34096

1 Q. Would you please tell the Chamber where and what your military

2 occupational speciality was.

3 A. I served at Skopje, the Petrovac airport, and my military

4 occupational speciality was rocket mechanic.

5 Q. Where were you when the war broke out in 1992? Where were you

6 living at the time?

7 A. I lived at the Pribiceva village where I was born.

8 Q. Did you at any point join the armed forces of Republika Srpska;

9 that is to say, were you mobilised?

10 A. I was mobilised in 1992, but I don't know the exact dates.

11 Q. Could you please tell the Chamber to which unit you were

12 mobilised.

13 A. I don't know how exactly the units were called. It was a village

14 guard of some sort. One could call it that way.

15 Q. After that, was there any organised military formation that you

16 belonged to in terms of establishment over time?

17 A. Yes. After that, I was a member of companies and eventually I

18 was a member of a military police platoon.

19 Q. Would you please tell the Chamber which brigade it was that you

20 were -- belonged to.

21 A. I think it was the 3rd Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade.

22 Q. Did you have to perform any duties of an officer in the 3rd

23 Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Could you please tell us at least the year, if not anything

Page 34097

1 closer, in terms of the point in time when you left the 3rd Battalion and

2 were transferred to the military police platoon?

3 A. I think it was in 1994 that I joined the military police platoon.

4 Q. And this military police platoon, which brigade did it belong to?

5 A. The Bratunac Brigade.

6 Q. Could you also tell us until when did you remain in that military

7 police platoon?

8 A. I think, as far as I remember, that it was until June, around the

9 15th or 16th, I don't know the exact dates, but in 1995.

10 Q. Just for the record, did you say June or July 1995?

11 A. May ... May, June, July.

12 Q. Just take it slowly. That's precisely why I would like you to

13 tell us for the record in which month did you cease to be a member of the

14 military police platoon?

15 A. In June.

16 Q. Very well. After that, did you perform certain tasks? In other

17 words, were what your duties until the end of the war?

18 A. You mean after the military police?

19 Q. Yes, after.

20 A. I was engaged in the work of civilian services in Srebrenica on

21 different jobs.

22 Q. Please tell the Court what kind of work did you perform in

23 Srebrenica town and its environs.

24 A. At first, we worked on touring Slapovici which is a small town of

25 weekend homes. Later on, we cut wood. After that, I participated in the

Page 34098

1 work of the commission for war booty.

2 Q. Was that under the remit of the civilian structures in Srebrenica

3 or the army?

4 A. I don't know. I was engaged by the municipal civilian

5 authorities. At least I believed they were civilian.

6 Q. By that time, had any members of your immediate family been

7 killed?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who was killed in terms of your immediate family?

10 A. My brother.

11 Q. When and where?

12 A. In 1994 on the 18th of November in Bihac. That is, the Bihac

13 theatre of war.

14 Q. Your engagement with the civilian structures of Srebrenica

15 municipality, did it have anything to do with the fact that a member of

16 your immediate family was killed?

17 A. I think so.

18 MR. GILLETT: Just to intervene at this stage. I'm looking at

19 the revised 65 ter summary for the witness and not seeing a reference to

20 working with civilian structures or this topic in general, so I'm just

21 wondering if my friend could direct me to any notice of this topic.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I think my

24 learned friend is correct. It is not in the submission. I just wanted

25 to go through his biographical details, so this was the last I had to ask

Page 34099

1 of that particular topic. My purpose was simply to finish off the topic

2 of his engagement with the civilian structures during the war.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's still relevant to have that in a 65 ter

4 summary. But if that's what have you done now, we can't -- please then

5 move on and try to find the subject matter which we find in the 65 ter

6 summary.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do so, Mr. Stojanovic --

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- let me just point out to you that that very

10 last question that caused Mr. Gillett to stand up was a leading question.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll bear that in mind,

12 Your Honour --

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- so that I do not put leading

15 questions anymore.

16 Q. I'd like to direct your attention, Mr. Andric, to a specific

17 time-period concerning fighting in Srebrenica. Do you recall when the

18 fighting around Srebrenica started in 1995?

19 A. It began in July on the 11th, as far as I remember.

20 Q. To the best of your recollection, what was your task on the

21 11th of July, 1995?

22 A. As far as I recall on the 11th of July, a group of military

23 policemen was securing the road between Sase and Pribicevac. A military

24 convoy or some military personnel were supposed to travel along that

25 road, although I don't know who exactly.

Page 34100

1 Q. As far as you remember, who was in that group of military

2 policemen executing that task?

3 A. I don't recall any specific names. I just know there were five

4 or six of us.

5 Q. What was your task specifically while securing the road?

6 A. Well, we had to secure the road, make it safe, so that the

7 military personnel, the officers, could go through. We were told that

8 the personnel would include General Mladic himself. It was a forested

9 area, and we were supposed to secure the road.

10 Q. How long did you stay performing that task that day?

11 A. The group of vehicles that passed through did not --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness kindly

13 repeat his answer.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness repeat his answer.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We stayed in that place until the

16 establishment group of officers went back. So when they returned, we

17 returned towards the evening.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Let me ask you this: Please tell the Court where this column of

20 vehicles with VRS officers went at first. In what direction?

21 A. In the direction of Pribicevac, as far as I know.

22 Q. Were you performing that task all the way up until the column

23 returned from Pribicevac?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In what direction did the column travel from Pribicevac?

Page 34101

1 A. Towards Bratunac.

2 Q. What was your task the next day, on the 12th of July?

3 A. On the 12th of July, I don't know who went exactly, but we were

4 in Potocari where the Muslim population surrendered and where the

5 prisoners were transported. We provided security to General Mladic in

6 the outer parameter. We were not in his immediate detail.

7 Q. To the best of your recollection, please tell the Court what was

8 the time of day on the 12th of July when you arrived Potocari?

9 A. I don't know exactly. It was sometime in the afternoon. Midday

10 perhaps.

11 Q. What do you remember, in terms of events in Potocari?

12 A. What I remember is that there were many refugees; women,

13 children, other people. I remember that General Mladic addressed them.

14 He talked to them, telling them that they would be taken to the place

15 they wanted to go. I think he gave some drink and food to some of them.

16 Q. Did you observe any UN or UNPROFOR members close by?

17 A. Yes, they were there.

18 Q. Were they engaged in any activity while you were in Potocari in

19 terms of escorting -- while you were there escorting General Mladic?

20 A. I don't know what they were doing. I just noticed they were

21 present.

22 Q. While you were there, was the population supplied with food,

23 water, or any other necessity?

24 A. I observed that General Mladic himself gave them something. He

25 threw packs of juice in the crowd, but that was all I could see at the

Page 34102

1 time.

2 Q. Were there any other VRS officers, commanding personnel, in

3 Potocari at the time?

4 A. Yes, but I don't know who they were.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness be asked

6 to approach the microphone. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you come a bit closer to the

8 microphone, please.

9 Perhaps if the chair -- the back of the chair would be adjusted,

10 it would be easier for the witness to ...

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. May I continue,

13 Your Honour?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please do.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. How long did you stay in Potocari?

17 A. I don't know exactly. Perhaps two to three hours.

18 Q. While you were there, did you notice if there were any

19 able-bodied men in the crowd of people gathered there?

20 A. I think there were.

21 Q. Did you notice that there was any separation of those men from

22 the elderly, children and women?

23 A. I did not.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 Q. Please tell the Court how long you stayed in Potocari? What was

Page 34103

1 the time of day when you left?

2 A. I think we returned to Bratunac sometime in the afternoon. I

3 don't know precisely when. I don't recall such details any longer.

4 Q. The next day, if you can tell us to the best of your

5 recollection, what was your task?

6 A. The next day, I and a group of military policemen went with

7 General Mladic to Srebrenica via Potocari. That is how we reached

8 Srebrenica.

9 Q. As a member of the MP platoon, who issued tasks to you

10 specifically?

11 A. I don't remember that since I have no particular duty. We

12 probably received it from the commander.

13 Q. Who commanded the MP platoon at the time in the Bratunac Brigade?

14 A. I think it was Mirko Jankovic.

15 Q. Do you know someone named Momir Nikolic?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. What was his duty at the time, his position?

18 A. As far as I know, he was a security officer in charge of security

19 affairs.

20 Q. Did you receive specific orders or tasks from him at any point in

21 time?

22 A. I did not, but I can't speak for others.

23 Q. When you say you knew Momir Nikolic, can you describe for the

24 Court what was the extent of your acquaintance? How long did you know

25 him?

Page 34104

1 A. Only during the time I was in the military police. I didn't know

2 him before that.

3 Q. Thank you. When following General Mladic while he was on the

4 move, what did you use? How did you move?

5 A. We used a military vehicle behind General Mladic's vehicle. Ours

6 was called Pinzgauer.

7 Q. Can you remember how many members of the MP platoon were included

8 in that task?

9 A. I don't know exactly. Perhaps five or six.

10 Q. Do you remember whether on that second day the column, including

11 you and General Mladic, stopped in Potocari?

12 A. We did not stop. We just passed through Potocari.

13 Q. Did you at any point in time move towards Suceska and Vijogor

14 village?

15 A. We did.

16 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, I was a bit slow to react just

17 because there's not a great space between the question and answer, but we

18 are entering substantive matters and that was a leading question.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you refrain from leading from now on,

20 Mr. Stojanovic. Even if there's no objection, it may not strengthen the

21 probative value of the testimony of the witness if you continually put

22 leading questions to him. But now there is an objection and specifically

23 related to -- to the stage we're now moving to.

24 So would you please refrain and proceed.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 34105

1 Q. Mr. Andric, please tell the Court what you remember in terms of

2 visiting those two locations?

3 A. What I remember is that we were in Srebrenica in front of the

4 municipal building, the church, and that we went to that settlement of

5 Suceska or in its direction. I don't know exactly. Close to a gas

6 station, we took on board some women, elderly Muslim women. That's what

7 I remember.

8 Q. Why did you bring them inside your vehicle?

9 A. General Mladic personally ordered us to do so. They were in

10 front of the building sitting down exhausted. They were all elderly, and

11 we were told to take them inside our vehicle and drop them off in

12 Potocari close to the UN compound.

13 Q. Did those elderly exhausted women ask to be taken to Potocari?

14 A. I don't remember them asking. They were old women. They didn't

15 ask for anything. We simply took them on board and drove off.

16 Q. What were your movements following your visit to the locations

17 you mentioned a moment ago?

18 A. I think we returned to Bratunac --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, you shouldn't speak aloud. You know

20 that. So refrain from doing that.

21 I see that there may be a problem that there's no other counsel

22 available. I would say if one, perhaps, of your team, Mr. Stojanovic,

23 could keep a close eye on Mr. Mladic that if he wants to consult, that he

24 can give a hint without speaking aloud because that's not acceptable.

25 Could you please do that.

Page 34106

1 It seems to me that Mr. Mladic, at this moment, wants to consult

2 with you. At the same time, we are so close to the time for a break that

3 we could consider to take that break now so that you have an ample

4 opportunity do that. But whatever consultations will take place, not at

5 an audible volume.

6 Would you like to take the break now?

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour. We may

8 take a break now.

9 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break.

10 We'll take a break of 20 minutes, and we'd like to see you back

11 after the break, Witness.

12 [The witness stands down]

13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14 JUDGE ORIE: We take the break, and we'll resume at ten minutes

15 past midday.

16 --- Recess taken at 11.51 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 [The witness takes the stand]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Andric, we stopped at one point when you were telling us

23 about your second visit to Srebrenica and when you were in front of the

24 church and then passed through Potocari.

25 Would you please tell me whether someone entered the church in

Page 34107

1 Srebrenica on that occasion, to visit it?

2 A. I only went to the door and looked inside. I don't know whether

3 anyone else entered.

4 Q. Did you notice anything that was typical on the building itself?

5 A. It was devastated; a badly damaged church. I don't know

6 anything.

7 Q. Would you please tell me whether there was anything

8 characteristic that you remember about the events in and around the

9 church at that point while you were visiting the church?

10 A. I only glanced inside. I heard from others that it was

11 devastated. I did not enter, and I had heard that cattle was kept in the

12 church too.

13 Q. Were any shots fired or heard at any moment?

14 A. No.

15 Q. After Srebrenica, where did you travel on?

16 A. Bratunac.

17 Q. What was your next task on that day?

18 A. I don't remember exactly. I think that we were carrying out

19 usual everyday activities, but I don't remember.

20 Q. Could you tell me where you spent the afternoon after you

21 returned from Srebrenica?

22 A. I don't know exactly. I can't remember. I know that we were

23 also in front of the church in Bratunac, in front of the brigade command.

24 And after that, unless I'm wrong about the dates, I think that we set out

25 towards Konjevic Polje and Vlasenica.

Page 34108

1 Q. Could you tell us to the best of your recollection what time of

2 day was it when you set out towards Vlasenica?

3 A. I think it was in the afternoon, but I wouldn't know the exact

4 time.

5 Q. Did you stop anywhere before Vlasenica?

6 A. Yes. At a location after Kravica. I think it's called Sandici.

7 Q. What was going on there that made you stop?

8 A. There were some Muslim forces that had surrendered.

9 General Mladic stopped there and addressed them. He gave a speech. He

10 told them that as the people, they were not to blame, that the

11 authorities, their commanders and presidents, were to blame. He asked

12 them where they wished to go, to which territory. He requested that

13 buses be provided and that they be transported to the territory where

14 they wished to go.

15 Q. How long did you stay there in the area of the Sandici village,

16 as far as you know?

17 A. I don't think it was long, 20 minutes at most, but I don't know

18 exactly.

19 Q. Could you please tell the Chamber how many prisoners were there,

20 in your estimate?

21 A. I think perhaps 3- or 400 people, but I can't know. I did not

22 count them.

23 Q. As for those people, were they secured?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you recognise any of the people who were guarding the

Page 34109

1 prisoners?

2 A. No.

3 Q. In which direction did you move after this?

4 A. We moved in the direction of Konjevic Polje and Vlasenica.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we go, can I just ask one

6 clarification, sir.

7 Sir, did the buses that General Mladic ordered arrive while you

8 were still there?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. Would you please tell the Chamber where you stopped next.

13 A. The next stop was at a location called Kasaba, before Milici.

14 Q. Could you tell the Chamber in more detail what sort of location

15 it was where you stopped.

16 A. It's a place before Milici - I think it was a football pitch -

17 and that was where we stopped.

18 Q. What happened after you stopped there?

19 A. General Mladic also addressed those. There was a similar number

20 of those who were taken prisoner. He gave them the same speech, a

21 similar one to the one he had given in Sandici. That was how he

22 addressed these people too. From there, we continued on towards

23 Vlasenica.

24 Q. Could you tell us whether you were able to hear what

25 General Mladic said at the football pitch in Kasaba?

Page 34110

1 A. Well, he told them that they had been betrayed, that their

2 commander Naser Oric had sold them, betrayed them, something along those

3 lines, that as people they were not guilty at all, that politics pursued

4 by their president were to blame. I don't remember anything else.

5 Q. Did you notice if anyone was abused or mistreated or if any of

6 the prisoners were beaten?

7 A. No. I didn't notice, and nothing like that took place.

8 Q. In your estimate, how long did you stay there?

9 A. It was a very short stop; up to 20 minutes.

10 Q. Would you please tell the Chamber in which direction you

11 continued your journey and how far did you go?

12 A. In the direction of Vlasenica.

13 Q. Did you stop in Vlasenica?

14 A. Yes, we did.

15 Q. Where did you stop and where were you personally?

16 A. We were in front of a building. I think it was some command. We

17 went there to have lunch. And we waited for General Mladic there, in

18 front of the building.

19 Q. To the best of your recollection, how long did you stay in

20 Vlasenica?

21 A. Oh, I can't remember. Maybe an hour.

22 Q. In what vehicle did you escort the vehicle that General Mladic

23 was in, on that day?

24 A. It was a Pinzgauer vehicle.

25 Q. Do you know what General Mladic did in this building in

Page 34111

1 Vlasenica?

2 A. No, I don't.

3 Q. Was it a military building?

4 A. I think so.

5 Q. Where did you go after that?

6 A. We moved on, towards Han Pijesak, and we were providing escort.

7 Q. How far did you escort General Mladic?

8 A. We escorted him to the gas station at the entrance to the town of

9 Han Pijesak itself, I think.

10 Q. And what happened there?

11 A. He stopped there to refuel his vehicle and ours. He said

12 good-bye to us and ordered us to return to the brigade command.

13 Q. Did you do so?

14 A. Yes, we did.

15 Q. To the best of your recollection, when did you return to the

16 brigade command that evening?

17 A. I don't know exactly, but it was during the night.

18 Q. Mr. Andric, during this trip from Bratunac via Sandici,

19 Konjevic Polje, Kasaba, and Vlasenica, did you at any moment while

20 stopping notice Momir Nikolic?

21 A. No, I didn't.

22 Q. Did you at any moment during the trip hear from someone else from

23 the escort that General Mladic met Momir Nikolic on that day along this

24 route?

25 A. No, I didn't hear that.

Page 34112

1 Q. Mr. Andric, please tell us, to the best of your recollection,

2 when you passed by the football pitch in Kasaba on your way back, could

3 you notice whether there were any prisoners there still?

4 A. I don't remember.

5 Q. When you passed by Sandici, or rather through Sandici during that

6 evening, do you remember whether the prisoners were still in the same

7 location which you have described when you were moving towards Vlasenica?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gillett.

9 MR. GILLETT: Before the witness's answer, again in the revised

10 summary there's no detailed information about his observations on the

11 return to Bratunac. There's no information directing me as to what could

12 potentially come out.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's correct.

15 But it's a summary, and I think that this question is substantial and

16 very detailed. There are other issues that are not included in the

17 summary that we have provided. I don't see what's disputable about that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, what is disputable is not that the question is

19 not detailed but the issue is whether in your 65 ter summary you covered

20 the subjects you would ask the witness about, and Mr. Gillett, I think,

21 refers to that.

22 MR. GILLETT: And if I may, the only sentence even vaguely

23 referring to this is where it says -- it's the second-last paragraph of

24 the summary. It says:

25 "After the meeting that General Mladic had in command in

Page 34113

1 Vlasenica, they continued the General's escort to Han Pijesak where they

2 stopped, poured fuel, and then by the General's orders went back in

3 Bratunac."

4 Then it goes on to the witness's comments about Momir Nikolic.

5 So there's simply no indication of facts that could come from this

6 witness on which we could prepare for the cross-examination.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You are -- it is hereby on the record. If it

8 will have any further consequences as far as your preparation is

9 concerned, Mr. Gillett, then, of course, we'll ...

10 Mr. Stojanovic, you're giving the impression that you consider it

11 not that relevant. The Chamber considers this to be relevant. But for

12 the time being, please proceed.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will

14 finish with one additional question.

15 Q. Mr. Andric, that evening, upon arrival to Bratunac, did you

16 submit a report to anyone, you or any of the other members of the

17 military police group? I mean, did you report about discharging the task

18 that you carried out on that day?

19 A. I didn't, and I don't know about the others.

20 Q. Mr. Andric, thank you for answering my questions. At this point

21 we have no further questions for you.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

24 Mr. Andric, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Gillett. You

25 find him to your right. Mr. Gillett is counsel for the Prosecution.

Page 34114

1 You may proceed.

2 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President. Your Honours.

3 Cross-examination by Mr. Gillett:

4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Andric. I'm going ask you a few questions.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. If any of them are unclear, please let me know and I'll do my

7 best to revise them.

8 Firstly, you mentioned in direct testimony stopping at Sandici

9 during the escort mission with Mladic; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You've previously given statements to the authorities in Bosnia;

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. GILLETT: Could we get 65 ter document 32386 on the monitor.

15 And if we go to page 1. For this document, the pages in B/C/S and

16 English should be the same.

17 Q. Now, if we look at page 1, we see the date of this statement is

18 29 June 2006.

19 MR. GILLETT: And, Your Honours, these documents were recently

20 received from the BiH authorities. One being as we understand the

21 original in B/C/S, and a translation by the BH authorities in English.

22 And where there are slight discrepancies between the original and the

23 translation, I'll endeavour to address those with the witness where

24 relevant.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, as you suggest.

Page 34115

1 MR. GILLETT:

2 Q. Now we see under the title "attendees," that the prosecutor is

3 Kwai Hong Ip and several other people are present at the interview. And

4 we see in the B/C/S version, the original, at the top that the word

5 "Sarajevo" is crossed out and "Tuzla" is written there. Does this

6 indicate that the interview took place in Tuzla?

7 A. Are you asking me?

8 Q. Correct, yes.

9 A. Well, interviews were conducted both in Sarajevo and in Tuzla.

10 Q. Do you recollect whether this interview was conducted in Tuzla as

11 it appears to indicate on the B/C/S original?

12 A. I don't know. I can't confirm that. I know that I gave a

13 statement in Sarajevo and also another one in Tuzla. That's all I know.

14 MR. GILLETT: If we could go to page 6 in the B/C/S version.

15 Q. We see your signature with the names -- with the words "svedok"

16 underneath. Is that your signature?

17 A. I think, yes.

18 Q. You told the truth during this interview, correct, that we're

19 seeing on the monitor?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, in the statement --

22 MR. GILLETT: And if we could go to paragraph 2 which is on page

23 3 --

24 Q. -- you describe in the statement events in Sandici during the

25 escort mission with General Mladic. And I'm going to read to you what

Page 34116

1 you state.

2 This is at paragraph 2. It states:

3 "On 13 July 1995, when I was on the Sandici meadow,

4 General Mladic talked to the prisoners who were collected there. In that

5 area I saw between 400 and 500 men. I heard Mladic telling these

6 prisoners that he would provide buses for them to go where they wished.

7 I got the impression that this speech as well as the circumstances had

8 been staged because the buses appeared almost at the same time. As soon

9 as the buses arrived, I heard Mladic shouting, 'All of you get in the

10 bus!' About two to three buses arrived. I did not notice either

11 journalists, TV cameras, or reporters in the Sandici meadow."

12 Sir, do you stand by that statement in paragraph 2?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. Sir, if you could explain? A few moments ago, you were asked by

15 Judge Moloto whether the buses arrived at Sandici meadow while you were

16 present, and this is at temporary transcript page 49, your response was:

17 No. Can you explain this discrepancy?

18 A. I can explain that a lot of time passed -- passed since, and at

19 this point in time, right now, I cannot remember every detail to say

20 whether they had arrived or not. Perhaps at the moment when I gave this

21 statement, I remembered that they had arrived. But now, I don't know.

22 Q. And your recollection was better in 2006 than it is today in

23 2015; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. GILLETT: Your Honour, I'm going to refer to some other

Page 34117

1 paragraphs of this statement. I wonder if I could tender it to get an

2 exhibit number now so that we have a consistent number throughout the

3 transcript.

4 JUDGE ORIE: We'll reserve a number for it, and do you want to

5 tender the whole of the statement after that?

6 MR. GILLETT: Correct.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We could already reserve a number. And then after

8 you've dealt with all the portions, there will be an opportunity to raise

9 any objections against admission.

10 Madam Registrar, the number would be?

11 THE REGISTRAR: The number reserved for document would be P7295,

12 Your Honours.

13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll later decide on admission. But before we

14 continue.

15 Witness, when Judge Moloto earlier asked you whether the buses

16 that General Mladic ordered arrived while you were still there, your

17 answer was no. I now understand that your answer is: I don't remember

18 whether they did or not.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you be very precise in telling us

21 exactly what you do not remember or whether you have a clear recollection

22 what happened. Because here we might have been misled by you answering

23 that those buses did not arrive, whereas we now understand you just don't

24 remember whether they arrived when you were still there.

25 Could you please keep that in mind when answering any further

Page 34118

1 questions.

2 Please proceed, Mr. Gillett.

3 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. If we look at paragraph 3, the first few sentences read the

5 following:

6 "After Mladic's speaking to the prisoners, I received the

7 information from one of my colleagues, I do not remember from whom, that

8 General Mladic spoke to some commanders who were on the Sandici meadow.

9 I saw General Mladic speaking so some officers. I assumed they were

10 commanders because Mladic would never speak to anyone of the lower rank.

11 These officers were wearing two to three different types of uniforms. It

12 is difficult to say, but some of them were wearing blue one-piece

13 uniforms. Perhaps they were the special police."

14 So if I understand this correctly, you saw Mladic speaking to

15 some officers at Sandici meadow; correct?

16 A. I don't remember precisely at this moment.

17 Q. I'm trying to understand the statement in front of me. It

18 indicates to me that you said that you saw the officers that Mladic was

19 speaking to and that you thought they were commanders because Mladic

20 would -- would not speak to people of a low rank.

21 Could you help us? Is that a way of understanding what is in

22 your statement?

23 A. It is possible, but I don't remember any particular details.

24 Q. Sir, could we get 65 ter number 32390 on the monitor.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before this document moves off, did you know any

Page 34119

1 of the officers that Mr. Mladic was talking to?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

4 MR. GILLETT: Thank you. If we could get 65 ter document which

5 should be a photo, 32390.

6 Q. And if we look at the ERN in the corner, this is the same ERN

7 that is indicated in a lower portion of the statement that we were just

8 looking at. Now, the soldiers that you saw at Sandici were wearing

9 uniforms like this, some of them; correct?

10 A. There were different types of uniform. I don't know exactly what

11 kind of uniform they wore.

12 Q. Were some of them wearing uniforms that looked like the uniforms

13 in this picture?

14 A. I don't remember precisely. I think so. Possibly.

15 Q. The one closest to the camera in the foreground, do you recall

16 him being present at Sandici meadow?

17 A. I don't remember.

18 MR. GILLETT: Could we go back to the statement, which is now

19 with exhibit number P7295, temporarily assigned. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: What would you like to do with the photograph shown

21 to the witness?

22 MR. GILLETT: I was just going to first go to the paragraph of

23 the statement.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll see.

25 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 34120

1 Q. Again, looking at paragraph 3, if we see the third-last sentence,

2 it says -- I believe it's the third- or fourth-last sentence:

3 "I was shown the photo number 0216-4758. These are the types of

4 uniforms which men who were on the Sandici meadow wore. Most of the

5 Bratunac Brigade members did not have such uniforms."

6 Does that refresh your recollection, that you saw people wearing

7 the types of uniforms in the picture that we've just seen at Sandici

8 meadow?

9 A. There were different kinds of uniform. In all likelihood, there

10 were such uniforms as the ones you are showing me on the photograph.

11 Q. Well, sir, standing here now, is it correct or is it not correct

12 what is written in your statement in front of us, that there were people

13 wearing these types of uniforms at Sandici meadow?

14 A. I think there were some such uniforms.

15 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, I'd tendered 65 ter document, this

16 picture, 32390.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 32390 receives number P7296,

19 Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

21 MR. GILLETT: Thank you very much. I just note for the record

22 that another photograph referred to in that paragraph under the number

23 0217-4734 [sic] on our understanding according to the ERN is already

24 admitted as P1148 at page 120.

25 Q. Mr. Andric, I'm going to ask you a few questions about the

Page 34121

1 continuation of your escort mission with Mladic now.

2 Now, you said at temporary transcript page 49 --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could --

4 MR. GILLETT:

5 Q. -- that stopping at Sandici the next stop was at Kasaba, at the

6 football field. Do you recall saying that a moment ago?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. GILLETT: Could we now go to -- sorry. If we stay with the

9 same statement and turn across the page to paragraph 8, which should be

10 on page 4.

11 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for that, Mr. Gillett, the

12 number you referred to on line 19, page 60, starts with 0217, whereas I

13 see all the documents referred in that paragraph started with 0216. Is

14 there any possibility that you misspoke?

15 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. President, I did

16 misspeak on that. 0216 should be the initial digit.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

18 MR. GILLETT: Thank you.

19 Q. Sir, looking at paragraph 8 of the statement, it reads -- in

20 fact, apologies. If we could go back to paragraph 7 just to provide the

21 context here. If we go back a page.

22 And if we see in paragraph 7, the opening sentence talks about

23 after Mladic leaving Sandici, you following him in a military vehicle.

24 And then if we turn over to paragraph 8, on the next page, it states:

25 "As we were approaching the cross-roads towards Konjevic Polje, I

Page 34122

1 saw that Mladic stopped his vehicle approximately 100 metres before the

2 cross-roads. The vehicle I was in was around 20 to 30 metres away from

3 Mladic's vehicle. I saw that Mladic got out of the vehicle and spoke to

4 a group of 20 soldiers."

5 It then continues. Paragraph 9 refers to a technical matter.

6 And then paragraph 10, the first sentence says:

7 "We stayed in Konjevic Polje for about ten minutes."

8 And then it states:

9 "After leaving Konjevic Polje, we headed to Nova Kasaba and

10 stopped on the football pitch."

11 So, in fact, the next stop on the escort mission was at

12 Konjevic Polje, not Nova Kasaba; correct?

13 A. We did not get out of the vehicle. He did stop his vehicle and

14 got out, but we stayed inside. We were a part of the column. As for any

15 further details, in terms of how it happened, well, after this much time,

16 I can't recall any.

17 Q. Sir, my question wasn't about whether you got out of the vehicle.

18 It was about whether the next stop on the escort mission was at

19 Konjevic Polje. And it's true, that was the next stop of the escort

20 mission, wasn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So what you said earlier at temporary transcript page 49 in

23 relation to Konjevic Polje was incorrect, because it omitted the stop at

24 Konjevic Polje.

25 A. I don't know. That's what you think.

Page 34123

1 Q. Well, I'm not asking for your observations on what I think. I'm

2 asking for an answer to the question. What you said earlier in saying

3 that the next stop after Sandici was Kasaba was incorrect, because there

4 was a stop at Konjevic Polje. That's right, isn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. GILLETT: If we could now go to page 4, paragraph 12, of the

7 same statement which should still be on the screen.

8 Q. And I understand that after Kasaba, you continued on in the

9 direction of Milici; right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And here's what you state:

12 "Fifteen minutes later, we started from there to Milici. On the

13 way to Milici, we stopped at the outskirts of Milici. I noticed a man

14 appearing from the woods. He was carrying a stick or a piece of wood in

15 his hand. We were moving fast and we had to stop the car abruptly. We

16 jumped out of the vehicle, and I heard Mladic shouting at him, What are

17 you doing, why aren't you fighting?! Then I saw Mladic ordering," and I

18 understand in B/C/S this says his body-guards, "to slap that man several

19 times. This man was old and I assume that he was a local. This happened

20 20 to 30 metres in front of me. I saw Mladic ordering this man to take

21 off his underpants to check whether that man was Muslim."

22 Do you stand by what is written here in paragraph 12 of your

23 statement?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If we then look to paragraph 14, we see that after the stop in

Page 34124

1 Vlasenica, you continued on the road and you stopped in front of a

2 building where there was some policemen. And this what is you state in

3 paragraph 14.

4 MR. GILLETT: This is pages 4 through to 5.

5 Q. "We left Vlasenica and headed to Han Pijesak. We stopped in

6 front of a building, I think it was in Han Pogled. I saw 20 to 30 civil

7 policemen sitting. They carried automatic guns. They were young men. I

8 saw Mladic getting out of his vehicle. Then I saw a man who seemed to be

9 the commander of that police unit approaching Mladic. Mladic shouted at

10 this commander saying what are you doing here? You are lying there while

11 other soldiers are getting killed! Why don't you go to the nearby hills

12 and wait there on Muslim forces coming from Srebrenica?! They will find

13 you here and cut your throats. Then Mladic ordered his bodyguard to slap

14 this commander five times. The bodyguard did so and then Mladic started

15 to shout at his bodyguard saying" --

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should slow down, otherwise it's very

17 complicated to follow.

18 MR. GILLETT: Apologies.

19 Q. "The bodyguard did so and then Mladic started shouting at his

20 body-guard saying slap him five times, and then he said why don't you hit

21 him harder Serb motherfucker. He would otherwise slap him five times.

22 Then the body-guard slapped him another five times. Then the policemen

23 went to the woods."

24 These policemen that you saw were Bosnian Serb policemen; right?

25 A. Yes, I think so.

Page 34125

1 Q. And when you say that Mladic told the body-guard to hit the

2 commander harder and that he would do it otherwise, that means Mladic

3 would slap the commander if the body-guard didn't slap him. Is that the

4 correct understanding of what you state?

5 A. I don't know what he thought. That's what he said.

6 Q. I'm interested in what he said. In what he said, did Mladic mean

7 that if the body-guard did not slap him harder, that Mladic would slap

8 him harder? Is that a correct understanding?

9 A. I don't think it was Mladic who would slap the man. I think it

10 would be Mladic slapping the body-guard.

11 Q. Okay. Thank you for clarifying that. And you stand by this

12 paragraph of your statement; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now you continue to state that after seeing the policemen in

15 Han Pogled, Mladic went to the main road and stopped traffic. And I'm

16 moving to paragraph 15 here of the statement, which reads:

17 "After this, Mladic went to the main road and stopped the traffic

18 which was flowing there. I cannot remember how many vehicles he stopped,

19 but those were Serb civilians. One of the vehicles was returning from

20 the funeral, and people in that vehicle were dressed in black. A woman

21 was crying and Mladic told her, I don't care about the funeral. It makes

22 no sense to cry. Go to the woods, pick a stone or a piece of wood, and

23 kill Turks. Then he told all people who got out of the car which

24 included women, too, shouting at them, Go to the woods, pick a piece of

25 wood or a stick, go to the hills, and try to ambush Muslims coming from

Page 34126

1 Srebrenica. I cannot recall if he called these Muslims from Srebrenica

2 Muslims or Turks. However, he must probably said Turks. Serb civilians

3 were surprised but nevertheless they went to the woods."

4 Sir, the main road you're referring to is the road between

5 Vlasenica and Han Pijesak; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And when Mladic said to the crying women, "I don't care about the

8 funeral. It makes no sense to cry. Go to the woods, pick a stone or a

9 piece of wood, and kill Turks," how were you able to hear that?

10 A. I could hear it because I was very close and he spoke loudly.

11 But I don't think he said so word for word. He said something to the

12 effect that the Turks should be stopped in their passage. It is possible

13 that I phrased it the way it is in the statement at the time, but I don't

14 remember any specific details right now.

15 Q. Sir, by "Turks," Mladic was referring to Bosnian Muslims;

16 correct?

17 A. Probably.

18 Q. And this was quite a memorable event stopping the funeral

19 vehicle; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You've already told us that your recollection was better in 2006

22 when this statement was taken, so in fact it's correct that he said to

23 the crying women, "I don't care about the funeral. It makes no sense to

24 cry. Go to the woods, pick a stone or a piece of wood, and kill Turks,"

25 that's correct as written in your signed statement, isn't it?

Page 34127

1 A. It is possible that it is how it happened.

2 Q. My -- sir --

3 JUDGE ORIE: No -- no audible speaking.

4 Please proceed.

5 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. I'm going to ask you a few questions about a different topic,

7 which is events at the -- I see Your Honour has an intervention.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, I just wanted to take a look at paragraph 20

9 of this document, and I just wanted to find out from the witness --

10 Sir, you're mentioning a number of people who were with you on

11 the 13th of July on this Pinzgauer. One of them is Mitrovic. Can you

12 remember his first name?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mitrovic? I think his first name

14 was Milovan.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And do you remember the first name of Jakovljevic?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was it?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Boro.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then do you remember the surname of Bosko?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you remember the first name of Nikolic?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember who else was

23 there. I do remember that Mitrovic was there and Jakovljevic.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: In this, paragraph you are saying, let me read it

25 to you:

Page 34128

1 "I'm not sure who was in the Pinzgauer with me on the 13th of

2 July 1995 except for Mitrovic and Jakovljevic, whom I have mentioned.

3 However, it may include Bosko, perhaps Nikolic, and Nenad Jokic."

4 Do you remember Nenad Jokic being there?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not right now.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: But do you remember Bosko's surname?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you remember Nikolic's first name?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't. I haven't seen most of

10 them in 20 years. I only see Boro Jankovic.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps in order to avoid whatever confusion.

13 Irrespective of whether you remember that Nikolic was there, you

14 apparently had on your mind a certain person by the name of Nikolic. Do

15 you remember his first name? So even if he wasn't there, what the first

16 name of Nikolic is.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. Perhaps if I had a

18 list of military policemen, I might be able to tell you who there was

19 with the last name of Nikolic. But off the cuff, I don't remember.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And do I understand then that you saw mainly

21 military policemen there?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: And that Nikolic, irrespective of whether he was

24 there, that you knew him as a military policeman?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know there was a Nikolic whose

Page 34129

1 first name I don't recall who was a member of the military police.

2 JUDGE ORIE: And that's the one had you on your mind when you

3 said that perhaps he may have been there?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

6 Please proceed -- no. Let's take a break first. That's better.

7 Witness, we'll take a break, and we'd like to see you back in 20

8 minutes from now.

9 And Mr. Mladic should not speak aloud.

10 You may follow the usher.

11 [The witness stands down]

12 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at 1.30.

13 --- Recess taken at 1.09 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 1.31 p.m.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could I briefly address the Prosecution.

17 There is a renewed request for a witness to be heard through

18 videolink. I think it was a -- a witness for whom a videolink was denied

19 earlier. Kelecevic. Yes.

20 When could the Prosecutor -- Prosecution respond to that request?

21 MR. TIEGER: Probably within about one minute. I'm virtually

22 certain I know the answer. Let me confirm with an e-mail, and I can

23 certainly get back to the Court before the end of the session.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because the organising and scheduling

25 videolinks is not one of the easiest things to do, and the sooner we can

Page 34130

1 start with it the better it would be. It's appreciated.

2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

3 JUDGE ORIE: The motion I just referred to was confidential.

4 Therefore, I shouldn't have done that in open session. At the same time,

5 we didn't touch upon any of the content which has caused the

6 confidentiality of that motion. Therefore, there's no need to take any

7 specific measures at this moment.

8 [The witness takes the stand]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gillett, if you're ready, please proceed.

10 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

11 Q. Mr. Andric, before the break, we were referring to the reference

12 in your statement to a Nikolic. Now, if we could get document --

13 65 ter document 46477b if that's -- if we could get 4677, 65 ter

14 document, and go to page 130.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the number again?

16 MR. GILLETT: 4677, 65 ter.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. It's now correctly recorded.

18 MR. GILLETT: Thank you.

19 Q. Now what is coming up should be a list of personnel from the

20 Bratunac Brigade, and if we can to page 130, we should see that this is

21 for July 1995 at the top.

22 MR. GILLETT: And, Your Honours, we're just in the process of

23 adding an English translation. But as you'll see, it's essentially a

24 list of names.

25 Q. Mr. Witness, could you confirm that this says at the top

Page 34131

1 July 1995?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And if we go across to page 131, so the following page, we see

4 yourself listed Andric, Srecka Pero, with VP, indicating military police;

5 correct?

6 A. Probably.

7 Q. Well, do you see it --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could we enlarge it, the relevant portion?

9 MR. GILLETT: Thank you. It's about a quarter of the way down

10 the list.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: On the top.

12 MR. GILLETT: Near the top.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we see the entire top?

14 MR. GILLETT:

15 Q. Do you see yourself listed there?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Now, if we could go to page 149, and near the -- near the top,

18 it's about eight names down, we see a Bosko Nikolic, also listed with VP.

19 Is that possibly the Nikolic that you were referring to in your

20 statement?

21 A. I can't see Bosko written here anywhere. Oh, yes. Yes, yes,

22 Nikolic, father's name Vukota.

23 Q. So it's possible that is the person you were referring to that we

24 were discussing before the break.

25 A. Yes.

Page 34132

1 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, we would tender this -- what will

2 become once we've made an excerpt of it, 65 ter document 4677b. And if

3 it's not ready yet, we could deal with that on the close of the witness's

4 testimony.

5 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.

6 Mr. Stojanovic, any objections? It's ...

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we reserve a number already. The excerpt will

9 be assigned 65 ter number 4677b, and the number to be reserved once it's

10 there and if we decide on admission would be?

11 THE REGISTRAR: Number P7297, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: That number is reserved.

13 MR. GILLETT: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

14 Q. Mr. Andric, on the evening after your escort mission with Mladic,

15 which I understand to be 13 July, you returned to Bratunac; right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And once you got to Bratunac, Momir Nikolic ordered the military

18 police of the Bratunac Brigade to go to the Vuk Karadzic school and

19 assist those who were securing the prisoners in that area; right?

20 A. Possibly it was so.

21 Q. Are you saying, yes, or no, or you don't recall?

22 A. I don't recall that he ordered personally, but I remember that

23 military police did go there.

24 MR. GILLETT: Could we get 65 ter document 32391. And

25 Your Honours, while this comes up, this is a transcript of the witness's

Page 34133

1 testimony at the BiH Court, and if we could go to page 12 in English,

2 which is page 13 in B/C/S.

3 Q. And, sir, here you're describing the time when you came back to

4 Bratunac after the escort mission, and you were asked:

5 "And what happens there next, there in front of the command in

6 terms of your group. Were you assigned to any activities, tasks?"

7 And your response:

8 "Well, the group was tasked to go and provide assistance,

9 practically to others who were providing security at or around school in

10 Bratunac. I don't recall the" --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gillett, you're reading, and that's where you

12 usually gain too much speed.

13 MR. GILLETT: Apologies.

14 Q. I'll start this again:

15 "Q. And what happens there next, there in front of the command in

16 terms of your group? Were you assigned to any other activities, tasks?

17 "A. Well, the group was tasked to go on provide assistance,

18 practically to others who were providing security at or around school in

19 Bratunac. I don't recall the exact name but I believe the name is

20 Vuk Karadzic. To my recollection, this order came from Momir Nikolic.

21 He was the one to issue it - the order that we should go and provide

22 assistance to other soldiers and our fellow colleagues who most probably

23 were there in front of the school."

24 Does that refresh your memory as to being ordered by

25 Momir Nikolic?

Page 34134

1 A. No, I don't remember.

2 MR. GILLETT: If we go to page 29.

3 Q. You were then asked a follow-up question to clarify. And the

4 second question down, we see in the English - this should be page 30 in

5 B/C/S - is:

6 "Yes, Your Honour, I would ask the witness because it's unclear

7 to me, once he returned from Han Pijesak, the witness told that it was

8 upon the order of Momir Nikolic for the police ... for the military

9 police to go and secure ... and provide security there. From whom did he

10 hear this?

11 "Q. Did you understand this or not?"

12 Response -- and if we can go over the page in B/C/S.

13 "A. To my recollection, Momir Nikolic personally issued this.

14 Who else was in my company, I don't recall.

15 "Q. Hold on a second. Let us clarify. On your return to

16 Bratunac, to the command, from Han Pijesak, did you find Momir Nikolic

17 there?

18 "A. I believe so, yes.

19 "Q. Did you hear that from Momir Nikolic directly?

20 "A. Yes."

21 Sir, you were ordered by Momir Nikolic to go to the Vuk Karadzic

22 school after the escort mission; correct.

23 A. I don't remember now.

24 Q. Earlier today --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could we ask --

Page 34135

1 Witness, when you testified in the BiH Court, did you tell the

2 truth?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

4 JUDGE ORIE: And do you -- have you any reasons to say that what

5 you told at that time is not true?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think there is any.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do we have the year in which this testimony

8 was given? It's in the introduction. I think you didn't mention it

9 specifically.

10 MR. GILLETT: It's on -- it's 2008, according to our

11 understanding.

12 JUDGE ORIE: 2008, yes. Please -- that's at least how you

13 introduce it.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Mr. Andric, earlier today, you were asked at temporary transcript

17 page 43:

18 "Q. Do you know someone named Momir Nikolic?

19 "A. I do.

20 "Q. What was his duty at the time, his position?

21 "A. As far as I know, he was a security officer in charge of

22 security affairs.

23 "Q. Did you receive specific orders or tasks from him at any

24 point in time?

25 "A. I did not" --

Page 34136

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic should not speak aloud. It's the last

2 warning, Mr. Mladic. You're removed from the courtroom if it happens

3 again. Let that be clear.

4 Please proceed.

5 MR. GILLETT: I'll repeat the question, and this is line 23:

6 "Q. Did you receive specific orders or tasks from him at any

7 point in time?

8 "A. I did not -- I did not but I can't speak for others."

9 Q. Sir, in light of what you've just told us, that testimony was

10 incorrect. In fact, you don't remember whether Momir Nikolic gave you

11 orders; right?

12 A. I don't remember anymore.

13 Q. Sir, you went to the area near the Vuk Karadzic school in

14 Bratunac on the evening of 13 July after the escort mission with Mladic;

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. GILLETT: Could we get 65 ter document 32388, please.

18 Q. And while that's coming out, you're aware that members of the

19 Bratunac Brigade military police took the Pinzgauer vehicle and parked it

20 in front of the Vuk Karadzic school; right?

21 A. Yes, that vehicle was parked in front of the school.

22 Q. And it was taken there by members of the Bratunac Brigade

23 military police; right?

24 A. Probably. I didn't travel in it, but probably they did.

25 Q. If we look at the statement in front of us, we see it's from

Page 34137

1 28 February 2007, and again under attendees the prosecutor is

2 Kwai Hong Ip asking questions. Now, if we go to page -- page 7 in the

3 B/C/S original, we can see some photos attached to the statement. These

4 should be colour photographs. And this first photograph at the top shows

5 the street in the centre of Bratunac heading towards the Vuk Karadzic

6 school; right.

7 A. I know the school but not the street.

8 Q. Is this the Vuk Karadzic school, to your recollection?

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which, Mr. Gillett?

10 MR. GILLETT: Sorry, let me specify.

11 Q. Is the light building at the end of the street perpendicular to

12 the road that we can see the school in Bratunac, to your recollection?

13 A. I think so, but I don't know to this day what it's called. I

14 know where it is it located, but there are two or three schools there.

15 Q. Then if we go back to paragraph 4 of your statement, which should

16 be on page 4 of this.

17 MR. GILLETT: And again, the English and B/C/S should be the same

18 page numbers.

19 Q. At paragraph 4, we see that you state:

20 "I was shown the photograph with PA/1 and I signed and dated it.

21 That is a photograph of Bratunac town centre. I marked with a green

22 marker the locations where the vehicles and trucks were."

23 MR. GILLETT: And just for Your Honours, we haven't got to that

24 photo yet, but I'm reading the part of the statement together.

25 Q. You continue:

Page 34138

1 "I saw those buses and trucks. I heard and saw people in

2 Vuk Karadzic school, but I did not go inside. The windows were open. I

3 also heard that there were other Bosnian Muslims on the stadium and that

4 they were secured there as well as those people in the vehicles. There

5 were many people around the vehicles, soldiers and some of my colleagues.

6 I do not remember who among my colleagues were there. Men of military

7 age were called up to secure vehicles and buildings" --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we go to the next page in the English, please.

9 MR. GILLETT: Thank you. And next page in B/C/S, I believe.

10 Q. It continues:

11 "I noticed young men of 15 and 16 years of age, Serbs who were

12 armed, and who helped securing the area with buses. There were also

13 elderly men who secured the buses. The area with buses was not closed

14 and anyone could approach the buses."

15 Paragraph 5 states:

16 "I was shown photographs PA/1 and PA/3. I signed and dated them.

17 The photograph shows Vuk Karadzic school. At the photograph 4, I drew

18 with a red marker the location of Pinzgauer which I saw when I was in

19 front of the school. There were many people outside the school, minimum

20 40 people, including my colleagues and other soldiers. I do not remember

21 exactly who was there and I do not remember if anybody was on the

22 Pinzgauer."

23 Now, if we go to page 8 of the B/C/S original, if we go one more

24 page further -- sorry. Sorry, this is the correct page. On the bottom

25 photograph, we can see the red marking made on the photo that you refer

Page 34139

1 to in the earlier part of your statement. That is your indication of

2 where the Pinzgauer was parked; right?

3 A. That is possible.

4 MR. GILLETT: If we go across another page, and if we could zoom

5 in on the area with the green markings made on the picture.

6 Q. Sir, these are the green markings that you referred to earlier in

7 your statement showing where the buses with the Muslim prisoners were

8 parked that night of 13 July; correct?

9 A. All this is very unclear to me.

10 Q. Is that a yes, or a no, or you don't remember?

11 A. I don't remember. I'm not familiar with this photograph, and I

12 can't interpret it.

13 Q. If we go back to page 6 of this document, we see at the bottom

14 your signature there, don't we?

15 Could you answer my question, sir. Do we see your signature --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And your recollection in 2007 when this was taken was better than

18 it is now; correct?

19 A. I don't know. How should I know if it was better or not?

20 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, at this stage that would conclude my

21 questions, and I would tender the two statements I've been referring to

22 as well as the additional exhibit referring to the Bosko Nikolic. The

23 two statements are 32387, that's the statement I was initially referring

24 to that was given temporary exhibit number P7295. The second statement

25 that we've just been referring to is 32388. And the additional exhibit

Page 34140

1 referring to Bosko Nikolic is 4677b, which is now uploaded in e-court.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 32388 receives number P7298,

4 Your Honours.

5 MR. GILLETT: Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Then the others, the first statement

7 had received a number already and is admitted into evidence and that was

8 number -- let me just check.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Number P7295, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: P7295 is admitted into evidence.

11 Then 4677b, which is P7297, is admitted into evidence as well.

12 And now we have the other one. Have we reserved a number for

13 that, Madam Registrar, the excerpts still to be --

14 MR. GILLETT: Sorry, this is the final statement that I was

15 referring to with the photographs attached, which is 65 ter 32388.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: And 32391 you're not tendering?

17 MR. GILLETT: No, we're not tendering that.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then so 65 ter 32388, Madam Registrar, has

20 been assigned number?

21 THE REGISTRAR: Number P7298, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence under that number.

23 MR. GILLETT: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Gillett.

25 [Defence counsel confer]