Page 36085
1 Monday, 22 June 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone after a relatively long
6 period of not sitting.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good morning, Your Honours. This
9 is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed that the Defence would like to raise a
12 preliminary matter.
13 Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
15 Yes, you are right. We have to address Your Honours on the issue
16 of our ability to continue with the trial, and I will read short
17 statement in B/C/S.
18 [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are addressing you after our
19 return from the field and after a month during which there was no
20 sessions, and the Defence has been given that time to prepare for the
21 Tomasica Prosecutor's case. The reason we are addressing you is our duty
22 to inform you that the Defence has not succeeded in such a short time to
23 prepare for the continuation of this case with regard to Tomasica. The
24 Defence wants to officially file on the record that the time that has
25 been given to us to prepare for the Tomasica segment was neither
Page 36086
1 reasonable nor sufficient to allow the Defence to complete all the
2 preparatory actions which are necessary to adequately and fully confront
3 and refute the testimonies of the Prosecutor's expert witnesses.
4 Despite our great effort, the number of expert witnesses and
5 their various specialities have not allowed us to have a complete
6 overview of their testimonies despite our consultations with the Defence
7 expert witnesses.
8 [In English] I think that the translation is a bit different. It
9 says "despite consultations with the Defence expert witnesses." We did
10 not have consultations with Defence expert witnesses.
11 [Interpretation] Despite the efforts of -- invested by the
12 Defence, the allocated time has not allowed us to find Defence expert
13 witnesses. Even if we had, that would not have been enough for the
14 expert witnesses to review all the materials provided by the Prosecutor's
15 expert witnesses and to prepare for the cross-examination.
16 The facts in this case say that the Tomasica investigations
17 started in 2002. They continued in 2004 and in 2006 with the help of the
18 prosecutor's office of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The final works on the
19 exhumation of the bodies finished in 2013.
20 We can find this fact in paragraph 2 of Ian Hanson's paper. Let
21 us mention that the entire ICMP was involved in this work, the ICMP being
22 the International Commission on Missing Persons. The Prosecutor had the
23 help from the police and the prosecutor's office of Bosnia and
24 Herzegovina. Obviously, this was what involved a lot of work and the
25 Prosecutor needed more than a decade to complete it with the help of a
Page 36087
1 vast machinery that it had at its disposal. The Defence could not
2 complete the work with the limited resources and the limited number of
3 people that were -- that were allocated to us in just a month.
4 We take this opportunity to ask for -- from the Trial Chamber to
5 allocate us additional time to prepare and to continue to work
6 professionally and to protect the rights of our client. The Defence is
7 prepared to cross-examine the fact witnesses provided by the Prosecutor.
8 As far as the Prosecutor's investigation is concerned, we can
9 tell you that it is ongoing. Last night we received new information that
10 the Prosecutor learned in their conversation with the witness who is
11 supposed to testify second in this case, so it is obvious that the
12 Defence needs additional time to be able to cross-examine the
13 Prosecutor's witnesses.
14 Thank you for having listened to us.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, any response?
16 MR. TIEGER: Just very briefly and just about one aspect of the
17 argument raised by Mr. Lukic.
18 First I should note that we had no indication before this morning
19 immediately before we commenced that he would be offering that position
20 to the Court; but, in any event, I feel at least compelled to point out
21 one aspect of the argument that may illustrate the larger fallacy in his
22 position, and that is the claim that somehow the initiation and
23 unsuccessful efforts to probe Tomasica initially in 2002 and then only
24 the partially successful efforts to excavate that large site in 2004 and
25 2006 and then eventually the probing and identification of additional
Page 36088
1 remains resulting in the excavation in 2013 are somehow part of an
2 ongoing process that bears some relationship to the amount of time that
3 must be invested by the Defence in analysing the results of the 2013
4 excavation and exhumations. There are few more striking examples of the
5 apples-and-oranges fallacy that I can think of. These are two completely
6 different things.
7 And the fact that there a was an unsuccessful probe in 2002 and
8 then there was a long gap between that time and the 2013 excavation have
9 absolutely nothing to do with the review of the very concise, very clear
10 information about the 2013 exhumation that was adduced in response to
11 those efforts and that has been presented to the Defence. That is aside
12 from the issue of when the Defence was properly seized of the information
13 about the Tomasica excavation such that efforts to identify experts who
14 could assist in their evaluative efforts might first be commenced.
15 So I cannot offer an exhaustive review of Mr. Lukic's comments,
16 but I would suggest that these two issues alone suffice to make clear
17 that this submission is misplaced and should not result in the relief
18 sought.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, anything to add?
20 Yes, Mr. Traldi.
21 MR. TRALDI: Sorry --
22 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise.
23 MR. TRALDI: I apologise. Just to very briefly add to Mr. Tieger
24 remarks, having been involved with the fact witnesses. Mr. Lukic
25 suggested on the basis of having received a proofing note yesterday that
Page 36089
1 that meant investigations were continuing. Of course, he received the
2 standard sort of information that both parties have provided during the
3 course of witness preparation, and I think to misconstrue that to suggest
4 that there remain some sort of investigative process beyond the standard
5 witness preparation is misleading.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: I am afraid that I cannot agree with my learned
8 friend that I was misconstruing anything. The documents were offered to
9 this witness to comment on them yesterday. At least we were informed
10 that way. So he never commented on the documents mentioned in that
11 proofing note, never before. So it was part of the investigation.
12 You will probably be offered this chart made from that
13 conversation, and you will see from the information report that many
14 things were raised for the first time, and we can ask the witness if
15 those facts were actually raised with him for the first time yesterday.
16 So I'm not misconstruing anything. It's visible from the documents that
17 the Prosecution was conducting investigation yesterday with that witness.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Anything else, Mr. Lukic?
19 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber noted that the Defence declared its
23 preparedness to cross-examine at least the witnesses of fact.
24 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. That's true.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So therefore, that's the reason why we'll not
Page 36090
1 at this very moment determine the matter. We'll further consider it and
2 we'll also keep in the back of our minds, Mr. Lukic, that the matter of
3 the time to be granted to prepare for the reopening has been litigated
4 and has resulted in a decision by the Appeals Chamber in which the appeal
5 against the decision of this Trial Chamber was denied, but we'll look at
6 all that together and not hasten and hurry at this moment to give a
7 decision within half an hour. We'll take at least one or two days to
8 further consider the matter.
9 Any other matter you intended to raise, Mr. Lukic, or was this
10 the --
11 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour. Thank you. That's all we had.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Not to say that it's not enough in no way.
13 Then we briefly move into private session.
14 [Private session]
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13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
16 We'll take a break. During the break, the Chamber will consider
17 the arguments raised by the parties in relation to protective measures
18 and we'll give our decision upon return, which will be at ten minutes to
19 11.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has heard the submissions in relation --
23 and the request for protective measures for Witness RM383 and has decided
24 to grant the protective measure as requested; that is, face distortion,
25 voice distortion, and pseudonym. The reasons will be given soon.
Page 36107
1 Could we turn into closed session in order to allow the witness
2 to enter the courtroom, and immediately after he has taken his seat we'll
3 proceed in open session though with these protective measures.
4 [Closed session]
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20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
23 Witness, you'll first be examined by Mr. Traldi. You find
24 Mr. Traldi to your right. Mr. Traldi is, as I told you before, is
25 counsel for the Prosecution.
Page 36108
1 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
2 Examination by Mr. Traldi:
3 Q. Good morning again, sir.
4 A. Good morning.
5 MR. TRALDI: Now could we please have 65 ter 32659, not to be
6 broadcast.
7 Q. Sir, what you should see on your screen now is a pseudonym sheet
8 which will have your name, your date of birth, and your pseudonym in this
9 trial. Please don't read any of the information out loud. But if it
10 correctly reflects the information I just mentioned just now, if you
11 could please affirm that for the record by saying "yes."
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd ask that this be admitted into
14 evidence as the next confidential Prosecution exhibit.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7415, under seal, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: P7415 is admitted, under seal.
18 MR. TRALDI: Could we now have 65 ter 31081, not to be broadcast.
19 Q. As it comes up, sir, did you give a statement to the Office of
20 the Prosecutor in 2014?
21 A. I did not understand your question.
22 Q. Did you give a statement to representatives of the Office of the
23 Prosecutor during an interview conducted in the year 2014?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, directing your attention to the right side of the screen,
Page 36109
1 the English version, do you recognise the signature in the bottom
2 right-hand corner?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Whose signature is that?
5 A. Mine.
6 MR. TRALDI: Can I ask that the court officer call up page 6 in
7 the English version.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, page 1 gives a wrong date, at least
9 an incomprehensible date for the interview. 201 is not a year. Could
10 that be corrected. And let's now move to page 6.
11 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. And, sir, do you see on the right side of the page next to the
13 word "potpis," do you see a signature again?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Whose is it?
16 A. Mine.
17 MR. TRALDI: Can we go for a moment into private session, please.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
19 [Private session]
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Page 36110
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23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
Page 36111
1 MR. TRALDI:
2 Q. Sir, did you have an opportunity to review your statement in
3 preparation for your testimony?
4 A. I can't remember.
5 Q. Did you --
6 JUDGE ORIE: There's -- there was B/C/S on the English channel.
7 There still is, but now I think it has been repaired.
8 If you put your next question to the witness, Mr. Traldi.
9 MR. TRALDI:
10 Q. Did you have an opportunity to read your statement this weekend
11 and make any corrections you wished to make?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. Aside from the correction we discussed a moment ago, if I were to
14 ask you questions similar to those you were asked in the taking of your
15 statement, would you give the same answers, in substance?
16 A. I would give the same answers.
17 Q. And now that you've taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm
18 the truthfulness and accuracy of the information you've provided in this
19 statement?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 31081, under seal.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P7416, under seal,
24 Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: P7416 is admitted, under seal.
Page 36112
1 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I will now provide a very brief
2 summary of the witness's evidence. I've explained to him that it is for
3 the public and not part of his evidence and confirmed with him that the
4 limited information contained therein will not give rise to his security
5 concerns.
6 RM383 gives evidence about one instance of the collection,
7 transport, and burial in the Tomasica mass grave of persons killed in
8 Prijedor municipality.
9 And I'll --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Any further questions for the witness?
11 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Mr. President. Before I do, I'd tender as well
12 the limited map book that we have made associated with the Tomasica
13 reopening, 65 ter 32662.
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 MR. TRALDI: And the Court Officer has hard copies for
16 Your Honours, and the Defence has been provided a hard copy this morning.
17 We'd propose it be admitted on the same basis as the municipalities and
18 Sarajevo map books, and I've been told that with that understanding the
19 Defence has no objections.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that any markings or whatever are not --
21 not accepted by -- not objecting to the admission.
22 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then the Chamber would like to receive
24 those copies, hard copies.
25 Mr. Stojanovic, you received a copy already?
Page 36113
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honours.
2 We received it earlier today.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stojanovic, and I do understand there's no
4 objection against having it admitted into evidence but that that does not
5 mean that you do not challenge any of the markings, the layout. Whatever
6 interpretation could be given to that, you'll keep your hands free in
7 that respect?
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, number to be assigned to the Tomasica
10 court binder.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Which is 65 ter number 32662 is Exhibit P7417,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
14 Mr. Traldi, I saw that there are some -- even some signatures.
15 Any reason to have it partly under seal or not at all? Because I don't
16 know whose they are.
17 MR. TRALDI: If we could put it tentatively under seal and I'll
18 come back to Your Honours within the next hour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Provisionally it's put under seal. And I'm mainly
20 focusing, for example, at pages 3 and 4.
21 Yes, provisionally under seal.
22 Please proceed.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Registrar, could you please repeat the 65 ter
24 number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: 32662, Your Honours.
Page 36114
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 MR. TRALDI: Could we move into private session briefly,
3 Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
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13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
16 MR. TRALDI:
17 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you now about when you were at the site
18 itself. Without mentioning how you got there or where you came there
19 from, can you just tell us what it was like when you got to the
20 grave-site the first time, what you were able to see, hear, and smell?
21 A. I saw some earth that had been dug up near the grave, and I saw
22 an excavator.
23 (redacted)
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Page 36120
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5 soldiers unloaded the bodies into the grave.
6 Q. And the last time you were at the site before you left, were you
7 or anyone there at the time instructed to close the grave, to put all the
8 disturbed earth back in and cover it up?
9 A. No one said anything. While we were there, there was no one else
10 at the location except for the group that had brought the corpses and
11 unloaded them.
12 Q. And are you aware of any discussion with members of your group
13 about closing the site, covering it up, filling the pit?
14 A. Well, yes, we did speak among ourselves, but we couldn't make any
15 decisions. No one asked us anything. The superiors were supposed to be
16 involved in that.
17 Q. Did any of those superiors ever issue an instruction to close the
18 site to anyone in your group?
19 A. No.
20 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, that completes my examination. I'd
21 ask that we very briefly move into private session.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
23 [Private session]
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10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 Before I give an opportunity to the Defence to cross-examine the
14 witness, Judge Fluegge would have one or more questions for the witness.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Witness, you said in answering a question of
16 Mr. Traldi that "the superiors were supposed to be involved in that."
17 Who were your superiors you're referring to?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had in mind those who were
19 responsible, those who were more senior in terms of rank.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: To which institution did they belong?
21 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt. If we might
22 address that in private session.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's a good session.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
25 [Private session]
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5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
8 Rather than to start with the next witness I'd like to deal with
9 a few procedural matters.
10 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Mr. President. If I might deal with one
11 leftover from this morning that I'd undertaken to get back to the Chamber
12 about, P7417, the Tomasica court binder. I've been assured by my
13 colleagues that it can be a public exhibit.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Can be a public exhibit. Therefore, P7417 which was
15 provisionally put under seal is now a public exhibit.
16 I'd like to deal with a few matters. The first deals with the
17 request to replace the current the e-court version of P2508.
18 On the 9th of December, 2013, document bearing Rule 65 ter number
19 2382a was admitted into evidence as Exhibit P2508, and I refer to
20 transcript page 20453.
21 On the 7th of April of this year, the Prosecution, following an
22 informal agreement with the Defence, requested via an e-mail that the
23 Chamber replace the current version of Exhibit P2508 with the document
24 bearing Rule 65 ter number 2382b.
25 The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace the current
Page 36160
1 version of P2508 in e-court with the new version.
2 I move one further down in my agenda in order to avoid that we
3 have to move into and then again out of private session.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then the next item deals with comment chart for
6 Witness RM382.
7 On the 15th of June of this year, the Prosecution requested the
8 Chamber's leave via e-mail to use a comment chart for five to ten
9 documents to be used with Witness RM382. The Chamber granted this
10 request on the 18th of June and informed the parties of its decision, and
11 this decision is hereby put on the record.
12 And the next item addresses the Defence. The Defence has
13 indicated that it intends could call a number of its witnesses pursuant
14 to Rule 92 bis, and the Chamber wonders whether the Defence could
15 indicate when it will file its Rule 92 bis motions.
16 Mr. Lukic, when do you think you could respond to this question?
17 MR. LUKIC: You really caught me by surprise, although probably
18 we'll have it already.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the reason why I give you time to find
20 out. Later this week?
21 MR. LUKIC: Maybe it would be a good idea to have a weekend.
22 JUDGE ORIE: A weekend. Okay. Then we'll hear from you not
23 later than --
24 MR. LUKIC: Monday.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Monday. That's fine. That would be Monday, the
Page 36161
1 29th of June.
2 The next item deals with the verification of translation of
3 documents bearing 65 ter numbers 19777, and the admission of document
4 bearing 65 ter number 19777e.
5 During the testimony of Nenad Davidovic on the 11th and the 12th
6 of February of this year, the Chamber invited the Prosecution to seek
7 verification from CLSS of the translation of the pages 13 and 22 of
8 document bearing 65 ter number 19777, which is the witness's diary. I
9 refer to transcript pages 31.610 and 31.579.
10 On the 26th of February, the Prosecution advised the Chamber via
11 an e-mail on the translation of the word "ljekara" on page 22 and advised
12 that the corrected page 13 forms part of an excerpt of the diary which
13 has been uploaded under 65 ter number 19777e.
14 Perhaps I spell the word "ljekara" because my pronunciation may
15 be wrong. It's l-j-e-k-a-r-k. Yes, the last -- it ends last three --
16 last four letters are k-a-r-a. Yes, there we are.
17 The Chamber requested the Prosecution file this e-mail. On the
18 29th of March, the Defence advised the Chamber via an e-mail that it has
19 no objection to the admission of the excerpt and the Chamber hereby
20 admits the document bearing 65 ter number 19777e into evidence.
21 And, Mr. Registrar, you're invited to assign an exhibit number
22 for that 65 ter document.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Will be Exhibit D1081, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Is it a D number?
25 THE REGISTRAR: No, I stand corrected. It's P7418.
Page 36162
1 JUDGE ORIE: P7418 is admitted into evidence.
2 I deal with one final matter; that is, the clarification on the
3 status of Exhibit P7198.
4 On the 22nd of May of this year, P7198, an intercept, was
5 admitted into evidence and placed under seal. The Trial Chamber notes
6 that the Prosecution did not request P7198 to be placed under seal, but
7 that most of the submissions and filings relating to this document were
8 confidential.
9 The Chamber considers that the status of P7198 should be public
10 and wonders whether there's any objections from the parties.
11 MR. TRALDI: Not off the top of my head, Your Honour, but we can
12 discuss it overnight.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, the same question to the Defence,
14 but if we hear from you tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, then we can
15 give further instructions to the Registry about the confidential status
16 of P7198. I leave it to that for the time being.
17 We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the
18 23rd of June, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.14 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day of June,
21 2015, at 9.30 a.m.
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