Page 36163
1 Tuesday, 23 June 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
6 courtroom.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 We'll following the same procedure as yesterday. That is, we'll
12 first move into closed session. No preliminaries were announced. While
13 we are ...
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For the public, just to know, that we'll first
16 spent at least half an hour in private session, up to a half an hour, and
17 that there is a chance that we'll then continue in private session or
18 in -- even in closed session, but there's also a chance that we'll be in
19 open session, but still a possibility of having some protective measures
20 which makes it not easy to follow the proceedings from the public
21 gallery.
22 We turn into closed session in order to allow for the witness to
23 enter the courtroom. And while we are moving into closed session - I'll
24 not dare yet - I just briefly announce that yesterday I signed an order
25 to redact the public transcript. The content was accurate. What was not
Page 36164
1 accurate was a date appearing in this decision. It said the hearing of
2 the 24th of September, 2012. This day I issued a corrected public order
3 giving the right date.
4 [Closed session]
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Page 36174
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
4 The Chamber has decided that it grants the request for protective
5 measures; reasons to follow.
6 Which means, Witness, that your face will not be --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- will not be visible on the screens, you are
9 covered by a shield so that even from the public gallery no one can see
10 your face, your voice will be scrambled in the audio, and we'll not use
11 your own name.
12 Now please keep in mind that whenever a question is put to you
13 where the answer could reveal your identity, don't hesitate to ask us to
14 go into private session which would mean that even your answer would not
15 be available to the public outside this courtroom.
16 I also urge the parties to be very precise in asking to go into
17 private session if there's any need to do so.
18 Witness, we'll now proceed to the substance of your testimony.
19 Mr. Jeremy will examine you.
20 Mr. Jeremy.
21 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Could we please see 65 ter 32660 in e-court. Not to be
23 broadcast.
24 Examination by Mr. Jeremy :
25 Q. Now, sir, without reading aloud any of the information that you
Page 36175
1 see on the screen before you, does this accurately reflect your name and
2 date of birth?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 32660, under seal, as
5 the next Prosecution Exhibit.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P7419 under seal,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted under seal.
10 MR. JEREMY:
11 Q. Sir, do you recall providing a written statement to the Office of
12 the Prosecutor dated the 1st of July, 2014?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 31080, not to be
15 broadcast, and this the statement of the witness.
16 Q. Sir, directing your attention to the English version of the
17 document on the right hand of the screen, do you recognise the signature
18 above the signature line on the first page?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And whose signature is that?
21 A. Mine.
22 MR. JEREMY: Can we please go to e-court page 5 in the English
23 version.
24 Q. And, sir, again, do you recognise your signature above the dotted
25 line on this page?
Page 36176
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Jeremy, you should switch off your microphone
2 when the witness is answering.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honour. I will.
5 Q. Sir, have you had an opportunity to read and review this
6 statement in preparation for your appearance here today?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And I understand that you wish to clarify and correct certain
9 parts of your statement; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. JEREMY: Can we move into private session, please.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
13 [Private session]
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Page 36178
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
4 MR. JEREMY:
5 Q. Sir, having now made the corrections to the statement that you
6 have just made, if I were today to ask you similar questions to those
7 that you were asked in the taking of your statement, would you provide
8 the same answers, in substance?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm
11 the truthfulness and the accuracy of this statement?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 31080
14 under seal.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P7420 under seal,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, P7420 is admitted
19 into evidence, under seal.
20 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I now propose to provide a very brief
21 summary of the witness's evidence. I've explained to the witness that
22 the summary is for the public and is not itself part of the evidence, and
23 I've confirmed with the witness that the content of this public summary
24 will not give rise to any security concerns for the witness.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, as you suggest.
Page 36179
1 MR. JEREMY: RM382 gives evidence about the creation of the
2 Tomasica mass grave and burials in the Tomasica mass grave.
3 Your Honours, that concludes the public summary, and with your
4 leave, I do have some additional questions for the witness.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then please put those questions to the witness.
6 MR. JEREMY: Can we move into private session, please.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
8 [Private session]
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8 [Closed session]
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14 [Open session]
15 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue to hear the evidence of the
17 present witness, the Chamber would like to deliver a decision, a decision
18 on a request that was made yesterday by the Defence.
19 The Chamber denies the request to allocate to the Defence
20 additional time to prepare for the cross-examination of expert witnesses
21 in relation to the Prosecution's reopening case and reasons will follow
22 in due course in writing.
23 That is our decision, and we thought we should inform the parties
24 about it without delay.
25 Then we turn into closed session in order to allow the witness to
Page 36185
1 enter the courtroom.
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17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Witness, let's look at paragraph 7 of your statement.
22 MR. LUKIC: We need the next page in B/C/S.
23 MR. JEREMY: And, Your Honours, just out of abundance of caution,
24 perhaps it's worth just reminding the witness that we're now in public
25 session, so ...
Page 36208
1 JUDGE ORIE: I'll do so.
2 Witness, we're now in open session. Still no one can see your
3 face, still no one can hear your voice. But if any answer would tend to
4 reveal your identity, please address me and ask for private session.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. [No interpretation]. I hope
7 that this is not broadcasted. This statement should not be broadcasted.
8 JUDGE ORIE: It's under seal and it's not broadcasted. Please
9 proceed.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Towards the end of the first line on the top you say that:
12 "There were perhaps five civilians there and they were together
13 with Radisa Ljesnjak, a supervisor in charge of the drainage system at
14 Tomasica mine. I do not know why these civilians and Ljesnjak were
15 there. I had the impression that Ljesnjak had connections to the
16 Crisis Staff."
17 I'd like to show you a document that we received recently from
18 the Prosecution. It's a 65 ter. The number is 31037.
19 JUDGE ORIE: While waiting for that document to come up on our
20 screens, when you said that you had the impression that Ljesnjak had
21 connections to the Crisis Staff, are you still referring to the Crisis
22 Staff of the mine or are you referring to any other Crisis Staff?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Crisis Staff of the mine.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
25 Please proceed.
Page 36209
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Witness, in front of us is a document dated the 23rd of February,
5 1993, where we see that between the 4th of April, 1992, and the 28th of
6 February, 1993, he was a member of the police. He demonstrated
7 exceptional results while carrying out sanitation and hygiene measures at
8 different facilities.
9 A. Yes. What is the point of this?
10 Q. The Prosecution sent us a proofing note from the other day where
11 you said to them that you didn't know that Mr. Ljesnjak was a member of
12 the police force.
13 A. No, I didn't.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you switch off your microphone when the
15 witness is answering your question, Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
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22 JUDGE ORIE: To private session and --
23 MR. LUKIC: We redact this part.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see what is recorded. Nothing yet.
25 We move into private session.
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3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
6 By mistake, a few decisions were given in private session,
7 decisions in the -- on the admission of certain documents. P7425 was
8 admitted under seal; P7426; P7427; P7428; and P7429 were admitted into
9 evidence as public documents -- oh, provisionally under seal. The last
10 four ones provisionally under seal. Apologies for the mistake.
11 We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow, I take it that
12 the Prosecution will be ready to call its next witness, which is an
13 expert witness.
14 We resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the 24th of June, 9.30 in the
15 morning, in this same courtroom, I.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th day of
18 June, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.
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