Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 608

1 Wednesday, 26 October 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.42 a.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Yesterday it was foreshadowed that we would hear

6 brief submissions about a couple of procedural matters.

7 Mr. Moore, are you ready in that respect?

8 MR. MOORE: Yes, I am, thank you very much. Would you like me to

9 start?

10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic?

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, thank you.

12 You cautioned us yesterday that we would have to announce any changes in

13 our team. I am pleased to have this opportunity now to present my

14 co-counsel, Mr. Vlado Domazet. He will be defending Mr. Mrksic with me.

15 Thank you very much, Your Honours. That's all I wanted to say.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, thank you. We welcome your assistant

17 co-counsel. I'm sorry, I had a pillar preventing me realising there was

18 an additional co-counsel.

19 Mr. Moore. Is that Mr. Lukic on his feet?

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic has a problem with his

21 microphone and the headset too. He's not receiving the right channel.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps he's not tuned in to the correct channel.

23 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is channel 6.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Channel 6, thank you very much.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There is no reception at all and the

Page 609

1 microphone is not switched on.

2 JUDGE PARKER: We will make arrangements to get you on air as soon

3 as possible, Mr. Lukic. It's not part of a scheme to shorten these

4 proceedings that you are tuned out. I think you'll be able to -- will you

5 be able to follow Mr. Moore in the meantime?

6 Mr. Moore.

7 MR. MOORE: We have no objection to the -- what I'll call the

8 daily bucket, disclosure of that, going to 48 hours. Neither have we any

9 objection to the disclosure of that material prior to the evidence being

10 given but we would ask that these two elements run hand in glove. In

11 actual fact, I have an alternative submission. It's this: If there is

12 going to be problems over authenticity of documents, it can work both

13 ways. I have no problems at all working to a different timetable, which

14 clearly would be within the inherent discretion of the court. If, for

15 example, the Court was minded to do five days or seven days, we have

16 considered it and we believe that with one small exception, we would be

17 able to adhere to that criteria. So, for example, if the daily bucket was

18 to be filled seven days ahead, and that material to be disclosed

19 generally, all we would ask would be a discretion to be exercised

20 benevolently by the Court that clearly there may be documents that will

21 come in, for example, on proofing witnesses, through that seven days. The

22 procedure that is adopted for the Prosecution is that witnesses will often

23 come in three or four days prior to their testimony, and it might well be

24 that some evidence has been given in court in the previous week that we

25 had not anticipated and we would therefore wish to ask the witness whom we

Page 610

1 are proofing about that document. And therefore, we would clearly make an

2 application to add that document into what I call the daily bucket. That

3 is the only problem that I would actually foresee. So we have no

4 objection to being extended. We have no objection to it being disclosed

5 generally. And if the Court and my learned friends agree, I am working --

6 I am willing to work within a five day or a seven day time span.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore. We will hear what other

8 counsel have to say. Could I mention that we have been a little troubled

9 by the language "daily bucket" and we think might try and use the language

10 "daily folder" which is actually more accurate and less troublesome to

11 sensitivities.

12 MR. MOORE: Can I deal with the daily folder, then, the weekly

13 folder? The one matter that did concern us if I may just conclude my

14 submission this way, is that it is not a criticism in any way at all

15 against the Defence, they are entitled to put their case as they deem

16 appropriate. But if there is going to be arguments about the validity or

17 authenticity of a document, two days may not be sufficient to validate

18 that document. Often we will have copies, let us say, from Zagreb or

19 Belgrade. Often they are difficult to locate. If we work within an

20 extended time span then that will certainly assist us rather than making

21 an application to adjourn and conversely, if my learned friends are

22 calling any documents that we have questions, then clearly we would be in

23 a position to authenticate. In our submission, this is fair. It applies

24 both ways and it will, I hope, stall the danger of application for

25 adjournment. Those are our submissions.

Page 611

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore. Could I inquire, Mr. Lukic,

2 whether you are yet on air? Thank you.

3 Now, Mr. Vasic?

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The Defence

5 teams have agreed that Mr. Lukic will be the one to present our position

6 on behalf of all the three Defence teams. I'm now passing the floor to

7 him so that he can explain our position to you.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Vasic.

9 Yes, Mr. Lukic?

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

11 morning to my learned friends. I will put forward several positions on

12 behalf of all three teams. Some of my colleagues may decide to join me as

13 we go along but our joint position is as follows: Related to two

14 observations made by the presiding Judge Parker about allegations made in

15 the pre-trial brief that the Defence, at least that's what the brief

16 claims, will challenge the authenticity of a great number of documents.

17 As far as we understand, we have not presented any such explicit

18 positions. I wish to take this opportunity to inform the Trial Chamber

19 that as far as the authenticity is concerned, the Defence will in fact be

20 challenging rather few documents in relation to P65. This will be a small

21 number of documents only and need cause you no further concern in terms of

22 slowing down the E-trial procedure.

23 As for the obligation of the Defence to disclose any documents to

24 be used in cross-examination, and to hand this over to the Registrar, we

25 believe it is quite sufficient for the Registrar to receive from us

Page 612

1 information on the documents that we intend to use within 24 hours prior

2 to our examination. Then it will be of course up to the Trial Chamber to

3 decide whether this time is reasonable.

4 The question is whether to deliver these documents to the other

5 party prior to our examination. I will here refer to paragraphs, not to

6 Articles; this is paragraph 10 of the directive. The joint position for

7 all three Defence teams is that before a witness is cross-examined, the

8 Prosecution does not need to be served any of the documents likely to be

9 used during cross-examination. First and foremost, we are pondering the

10 meaning of E-Court as a system. We believe the meaning of the relevant

11 directive is to expedite the proceedings and to make it easier for all the

12 parties to use the comprehensive documents that are likely to be used

13 during a trial like this. We do not believe that this directive is in any

14 way compromised if no documents are in fact delivered to the other party

15 before cross-examination. What really matters in terms of expeditiousness

16 and general duration of trial is that the Registrar is given the relevant

17 documents because the Registrar then passes these documents on to all the

18 other parties and everyone in the courtroom.

19 It is in this sense that the Defence has an additional

20 interpretation of the Rules. In our submission, the rules are very

21 specific about which documents and when are to be delivered to the other

22 party, the Prosecution. And our conclusion is based on Rule 65, but the

23 Prosecutor also faces the additional obligation under Rule 66(B) which

24 does not apply to the Defence teams. This is the reason that the decision

25 on reciprocal disclosure was abolished, a Rule that used to be part of the

Page 613

1 Rules.

2 Were documents to be given, documents likely to be used in

3 cross-examination, 24 hours ahead of time, and if at this point in time

4 the party doing the examination-in-chief is still examining and this is

5 likely to be the case very often, this would give the opportunity to the

6 examining party to ask questions in relation to documents that the other

7 party wishes to use. I think the whole point of cross-examination is for

8 the cross-examining party to still be able to in a way surprise a witness

9 and thereby question his credibility. The Defence believes that the

10 fundamental principles of E-court will in no way be compromised if the

11 other party is only served documents when the witness is about to be

12 examined by the other party. I think paragraph 13 of the directive or,

13 rather, its second passage is perfectly clear. If we so agree, hard

14 copies may as well be delivered to the other party when the

15 cross-examination commences. But generally speaking, we believe that the

16 principle of having private document lists, which is enshrined in

17 paragraph 22, would be compromised in its entirety were documents to be

18 forwarded to the other party ahead of time.

19 We are perfectly aware of the fact that we will be facing the same

20 situation when we start examining our witnesses, but then the same applies

21 to all parties alike and the same applies to each and every instance that

22 a party in these proceedings will be cross-examining a witness. Thank

23 you.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

25 Could I point out that in the directive for E-Court, in Article 5,

Page 614

1 both Article 5(10), and Article 5(13) contemplate that the Chamber may

2 order the time for release and, as Mr. Lukic has pointed out, Article

3 5(13) specifies as it were what will happen if no specific time has been

4 ordered by the Chamber. And that is that, where the document is not

5 released until the moment it is used in court, the party using the

6 document, if it is a multi-paged exhibit, must have paper copies ready.

7 What the Chamber is exploring, however, is whether it should order some

8 time beforehand for the release of the document. Mr. Lukic, as we

9 understand him, makes the point that that could disadvantage a party,

10 whether it be Defence or Prosecution, in their cross-examination because

11 they may lose the element of surprise in dealing with the witness. That,

12 of course, could only be so if there was a disclosure to the witness of

13 that document. What we had in contemplation was merely a disclosure to

14 the Chamber and the other parties. If the witness was not then in the

15 box, being in the course of giving evidence, there would be technically

16 scope for the other party, when it first sees the document, to speak to

17 the witness before the witness is called and mention the document. We

18 recognise that as a possibility.

19 So the issue is whether, in trying to determine how most

20 efficiently and fairly to run the trial, there should be some earlier

21 notice of the document to the other side. And in that, can I say the

22 Chamber is encouraged to hear that the Defence at least contemplate

23 challenging the authenticity of only a few documents. It may be that if

24 that is the case, they will be in a position to let the Prosecution know

25 at an earlier time of the documents that they question for authenticity,

Page 615

1 which will enable the Prosecution to obtain the original where that is

2 possible, if it's not already to hand, and it will be possible, then, to

3 look at the question of authenticity more readily.

4 The fundamental position posed by Mr. Lukic is one as I'm sure all

5 counsel appreciate, which is approached differently in different legal

6 systems in the world, and one which is not specifically determined by the

7 Statute, the Rules, or the directive in this Tribunal. It is a matter for

8 assessment by the Chamber what will be most efficient and fair.

9 The traditional common law approach was the one for which

10 Mr. Lukic argues. That is, the document may be produced at the moment it

11 is used and need not be known to the other party or the witness earlier.

12 The traditional civil law approach requires the disclosure of all

13 documents to the Bench at an early time, which is quite the opposite from

14 the common law. In more recent years, there have been adjustments,

15 particularly in many common law countries, to that procedure. And there

16 is now, for example, both in England and Scotland and in federal

17 jurisdiction in the United States, as there is in some parts of my own

18 country, a procedure now which envisages earlier disclosure of documents.

19 I say all that just to let you understand that the Chamber is well aware

20 of the issues. We will look at the matter and probably announce our

21 decision later in the course of the day. Thank you for your assistance.

22 If there is no other procedural matter, we will arrange now for

23 the witness to come back into court.

24 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, may I just deal with one small matter for

25 the witness? The witness has a broken ankle or heel and I've been told

Page 616

1 that she was feeling some difficulty yesterday because of pain. Keeping

2 it in the same position causes her significant discomfort. I wonder if

3 it's possible if she could have a short break perhaps after an hour, even

4 if it's just for five minutes.

5 JUDGE PARKER: I think I did invite her to indicate yesterday if

6 she was experiencing difficulty. We are well conscious of the injury.

7 MR. MOORE: Yes.

8 JUDGE PARKER: This morning, as we have had necessarily a later

9 than usual start, our working sessions will actually be just only a little

10 over an hour each.

11 MR. MOORE: Yes.

12 JUDGE PARKER: So I think we will by that means accommodate the

13 problem today.

14 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

15 JUDGE PARKER: And we will keep it in mind tomorrow.

16 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

18 Could I indicate that the Chamber has had time enough to consider

19 the matter now that has been dealt with in the submissions? We take the

20 view that for the present, although we will keep the matter under review,

21 for the present, we will not order any early disclosure of documents to

22 the other party. We will order that 48 hours before a document is

23 intended to be used, it will be released to the court Registry officer for

24 inclusion in the confidential folder of that officer, but not that it be

25 disclosed to any other party. And we will monitor whether that proves an

Page 617

1 efficient and effective system. In so doing, we are seeking to preserve

2 what had been the position before the introduction of the electronic court

3 system.

4 I think that's all that need be said at this moment about that

5 matter. Thank you for your submissions.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, doctor.

8 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

9 JUDGE PARKER: As I indicated yesterday, if you experience any

10 particular discomfort with your injury, please indicate and we will

11 adjourn or make whatever arrangements are necessary to help you. If I

12 could remind you of the affirmation you made at the beginning of your

13 evidence, it still applies.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Moore.

17 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

18 Examined by Mr. Moore: [Continued]

19 Q. Can we turn, please, to tab 20 of the same documents? And also

20 tab 21?

21 MR. MOORE: With the Court's leave I'm going to try to do it by

22 date so we can move a little more quickly. So that is page 39 and 40, for

23 tab 20. That is 65 ter number 223 and that's ZA002285, the B/C/S is

24 ZA002285 also. And then tab 21 are pages 41, 42, they come from 65 ter

25 number 996, the numbers there are 0117/2528, 2529.

Page 618

1 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to just look at, in your

2 case, page 40. Really it is the same procedure that we dealt with in

3 respect of phone calls yesterday. This reads, "From Dr. Bosanac", it's to

4 the European mission, from Dr. Bosanac in Vukovar stated that today

5 November the 2nd with aircraft from the air force and anti-aircraft

6 Defence a bombardment was executed on the already-ruined hospital in

7 Vukovar and the shelter and its vicinity. At that time in the hospital

8 there were approximately 50 children and eight newborns are expected. As

9 a result of the bombing, three casualties. Now, as I've already said the

10 document is not something you have sent but looking at the content, can

11 you recollect firstly whether you contacted anyone by telephone or any

12 other means to inform them of such an event?

13 A. Yes. I had a telephone of the main Defence staff in Vinkovci. I

14 had their telephone number and I informed them via telephone because that

15 was the only communication link I had. I did not have a fax at that

16 point. Rather, I made a phone call. And then I think they forwarded the

17 message that I gave them over the phone elsewhere.

18 Q. And with regard to a bombardment, on the hospital, was it a case

19 of it specifically being on the hospital or around the hospital? Can you

20 remember?

21 A. Yes. They bombed the hospital and the area around the hospital.

22 Q. Thank you. Can we move on, please, to tab 21? In your case, it's

23 page 41.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Are you tendering that?

25 MR. MOORE: I was going to tender -- yes, I am going to tender. I

Page 619

1 was going to tender them collectively but I -- I can do that individually.

2 My fault. May I make an application to tender that, please.

3 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received.

4 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much, indeed.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 20.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, am I anticipating too much?

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think it was wise of you to separate

8 these two documents. As for the document marked 2285, it seems to be an

9 original, whereas the document on page 40 is the translation into B/C/S.

10 So it seems to be a transcript of a document in English, because it states

11 here that there is a signature but we do not see one. Therefore, I ask

12 that this document be marked for identification only so that we can

13 establish what is the actual -- the original content of the document and

14 then who translated it.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Is it an MFI, Mr. Moore? Marked for

16 identification?

17 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. There are so many initials at

18 times one forgets.

19 JUDGE PARKER: I thought that would have been an old Irish one as

20 well.

21 MR. MOORE: Regrettably not. Yes, please, thank you very much

22 indeed.

23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be marked for identification 20, not

24 Exhibit 20.

25 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

Page 620

1 May we move on to tab 21? I've already referred for the record

2 the page number.

3 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to look at page 41? And

4 I will deal with the page 42. Can we please look at the bottom of this

5 document that you apparently sent? It's dated the 2nd of November. Is

6 that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you very much. And the people that you're sending it to,

9 Admiral Brovet, President Tudjman, Minister Hebrang, General Tus and the

10 EC monitor mission. Was it you who decided to send this letter or fax

11 with copies to these individuals?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Why did you choose these five nominated individuals?

14 A. I was hoping that these five people could do something to stop the

15 bombing of the hospital and further destruction and killing.

16 Q. What effect was the bombardment having on the hospital and the

17 people?

18 A. It had a tremendous impact. People were dying. People died on

19 that day. This man mentioned here was a handy man in the boiler room and

20 he just went out of the boiler room when the shell landed and killed him

21 on the spot. It was very difficult to work under those conditions, to

22 maintain high spirits. People were scared.

23 Q. I'm not going to go through the details of the document itself.

24 If we look at the final paragraph, the second sentence, certainly in

25 English translation, "most urgently we are sending an appeal to the

Page 621

1 command of the JNA for a cease-fire." Was this the first time that you

2 had asked for a cease-fire in relation to the, as you perceived, the

3 attacks on the hospital and general area?

4 A. No. That was not the first time. I sent such requests earlier as

5 well. I asked that the attack -- attacks on the hospital cease. That was

6 back in August.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. MOORE: Could it I, please, for tab 21 to be made an exhibit?

9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 21.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

11 MR. MOORE: May we move on to tab 22? Tab 22 is at 65 ter number

12 996, the ERN number is 0117/2529. And 2530. The original document is

13 2530, Doctor, your page 43, top right-hand corner. This is the following

14 day the 3rd of November, approximately two weeks before the capitulation

15 of the Croatian defenders. May we just read this, please? "Vukovar is

16 submitted to a severe attack." And then you go on to nominate aircraft,

17 tanks, multiple-rocket launchers, large calibre machine-guns, and then in

18 the previous day, 2nd of November, which we have just seen, 87 new wounded

19 persons were brought to the hospital and 18 this morning. So "the number

20 of wounded persons mostly civilians including women and children, has

21 reached 350. The situation has become extremely critical. Medication

22 supplies are almost exhausted. We are desperate. We are addressing

23 anyone who can help us before it is not too late."

24 May I deal with the second paragraph, please? The number that you

25 were referring to reaching 350, you're saying that it is mostly civilians.

Page 622

1 Are you able, and I know it is difficult, are you able to assess what

2 percentage of that 350 in the hospital were wounded civilians?

3 A. It's hard to say this now looking back. However, I know that it

4 was between 65 and 70 per cent. What I can say, based on what I remember

5 from those days, is that civilians were mostly wounded in shell explosions

6 and bomb explosions. These injuries were terrible. There had to be

7 amputations of legs, arms. Young people and the defenders of Vukovar,

8 Croatian soldiers, who at the time were members of the National Guards

9 Corps and policemen mostly had firearm wounds through and through wounds,

10 although that wasn't the sole injury that they typically had. Some of

11 them also had injuries caused by shells. Those who were on the front line

12 knew how to protect themselves, whereas civilians who went out of the

13 hospital to get something, such as to repair a roof that had been

14 destroyed the previous day, would normally be injured by shell explosions

15 and those were extremely serious injuries.

16 Q. Thank you. Tab 22, may I make application for that to be made an

17 exhibit, please?

18 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received.

19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 22.

20 MR. MOORE: Moving on to 23. 23 is the day after, the 4th of

21 November.

22 Q. It's from 65 ter 223, and ZA002456, 2457, and 2458, the 4th of

23 November. The original exhibit is at page 46, the translation, which is

24 slightly unusual in its form, is page 45. Would you be kind enough, then,

25 Doctor, please, to look at page 46? In that, there is reference clearly

Page 623

1 about urging international influence to stop the artillery and there is

2 reference to the hospital. But again, I just want to move on to the

3 bottom of that document, which really can be found at page 47. There

4 seems to be a series of telephone numbers. Now, did you send this

5 document or not? Can you remember?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. And the people that we see nominated clearly appear to be

8 politicians, we have got Carrington, Major from Britain, Kohl from Germany

9 and various other nationalities that don't need repeating perhaps. Why

10 did you nominate those people to receive this correspondence?

11 A. Because I had information that those were the people who at the

12 time held important positions in Europe, and had a significant amount of

13 influence that they could use in order to put an end to the war in

14 Vukovar, to the shelling and the killing of people.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, at the bottom of the typed copy, on page 45,

16 there is a telephone message. For my part, I didn't check, I confess

17 that, there is reference to a telephone message being received from

18 Dr. Bosanac at 3.20 in the afternoon of November the 4th. It reads as

19 follows, "Could you please add this to my letter sent to you today, the

20 following: On this very day," i.e. the 4th of November, "in the last half

21 hour, the hospital was hit over 90 times." That content, does that

22 correspond with the recollection that you have for that day or not? That

23 the hospital was hit 90 times and you asked for it to be added to the

24 letter?

25 A. Yes.

Page 624

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. MOORE: Again, I'd ask for tab 23, please, to be made an

3 exhibit. I don't know if I have to read in the ERN numbers again.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Could you assist the Chamber, Mr. Moore? The

5 telephone message is on the English version. It does not appear on the

6 B/C/S version. Are you able to clarify which was sent?

7 MR. MOORE: Yes, of course, I will try.

8 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough just to help us with a query? If

9 one looks at page 46/47, which is typed and clearly in B/C/S, we have the

10 telephone numbers and the names of the politicians whom you wanted to have

11 contacted. In the English translation, we don't have the telephone

12 numbers but we do have --

13 JUDGE PARKER: We do, if you turn to the second page of the B/C/S.

14 MR. MOORE: But not in the English.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Oh, I beg your pardon, yes.


17 Q. But if -- in the English translation, there is reference to your

18 telephone call, which I've asked you about that. If one looks at the page

19 46 and indeed 47, is there any reference there to that telephone

20 conversation? Can you help us?

21 A. I had telephone numbers and fax numbers of the Croatian liaison

22 office with the European monitoring mission, which was located in the

23 hotel "I" in Zagreb. I sent my faxes there. I made phone calls there.

24 And I asked them to forward my calls for help, both written ones and

25 verbal ones, to these instances. There, in the Croatian liaison office,

Page 625

1 they translated both my written and oral cries for help into English.

2 Q. Thank you very much.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours?


5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With respect to this document, I am

6 concerned that we have not clarified something. On pages 46 and 47, we do

7 not see the actual message. We only see it in the English version on page

8 45. So we don't know who received this message that was sent by the

9 witness. And we don't know what is the original document here. I hope my

10 learned friend could clarify this with the witness.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic. It is still obscure,

12 Mr. Moore. I suspect the effect of the evidence was that an e-mail or fax

13 sent to Zagreb to the Croatian liaison office at the ECMM, who then sent

14 letters reflecting the fax. If so, that leaves me a little confused as to

15 the signature on the bottom of the B/C/S version. Or maybe the B/C/S

16 version is the fax.

17 MR. MOORE: Certainly --

18 JUDGE PARKER: You can add that lot into Mr. Vasic's problem and

19 try and clear up some of the issues.

20 MR. MOORE: Of course, I will.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.


23 Q. If we look at page 46, doctor -- if we look at a signature,

24 please, at the bottom right-hand corner, at page 46, whose signature is

25 that?

Page 626

1 A. Mine.

2 Q. And when you contacted the liaison officer, was that by fax or

3 not?

4 A. Both fax and telephone. Different persons called back. I'm not

5 sure who was in charge of the phone and fax machine at the exact time when

6 I sent this.

7 Q. If one actually looks at page 46, and you look at the top

8 left-hand corner, and I do mean the extreme left-hand corner, so go to

9 page 46, literally the top of the page, there appears to be a date, 04/11,

10 and then the number 91, and then 1421. But that's a little more difficult

11 to read. Now, are you able to recollect -- and I know how difficult it

12 can be -- clearly this is a fax that's dated the 4th of November. Can you

13 remember when you sent it off, whether it was morning or afternoon or

14 whether it was sent when it was dark? Are you able to assist?

15 A. It's difficult to say about this particular fax. I do know that I

16 wrote most of the faxes in the morning or during the day, and I would have

17 them sent immediately, but it's very difficult to say anything more

18 specific in relation to this particular fax. These numbers that you can

19 see at the top of the page, not clearly, are here because the faxes and

20 the documents that we are talking about now are something that I received

21 when I left prison and arrived in Zagreb. These were given to me by the

22 liaison people with the ECMM. The original copies, the original

23 documents, remained in the Vukovar Hospital following occupation.

24 Q. Well, I would still make application for these documents to be

25 made an exhibit.

Page 627

1 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 23.

3 MR. MOORE: That was the 4th of November. May we move, please, to

4 tab 24?

5 Q. Tab 24, pages 48, 49. Again it's to the European mission two days

6 later, 65 ter number is 223, and the ERN numbers are ZA002454, 2456. I

7 wasn't going to deal with this in any great detail, but can I just draw

8 your attention, please, to halfway down the one paragraph itself? There

9 appears to be in the translation, English translation, on page 48, "the

10 whole town lives underground in shelters and basements."

11 Can you find that particular part?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Would you be kind enough, please, to explain to the Court what the

14 living conditions were at that time that caused you to write that

15 sentence?

16 A. The conditions were difficult. There were 15.000 people still

17 remaining in Vukovar. We organised these people around atomic shelters in

18 residential buildings. However, there were far too few of those. There

19 were other shelters around the town of Vukovar, in wine cellars, in

20 cellars built under residential buildings. There was a shelter near the

21 hospital, near a school building, and this cellar was quite solid. There

22 was another one in Borovo Naselje, in the Borovo factory itself. In the

23 factory building there were two shelters. One of them had been used as a

24 small hospital, a small health station, where we brought patients. The

25 whole town was living in its cellars because as soon as people left their

Page 628

1 shelter, they would immediately be casualties. There was no water and no

2 electricity.

3 Q. And when you refer to Borovo Naselje, again how far away is that

4 from what I will call the Vukovar Hospital, in kilometres?

5 A. About six or seven kilometres, thereabouts. I can't be certain.

6 Q. And with regard to the injuries that you received at the Vukovar

7 Hospital, let us deal with November, although I don't exclude other

8 months, did you ever receive civilian casualties from the Borovo Naselje

9 district and other districts?

10 A. At this time, about two weeks before the fall, I can't remember

11 the specific date but I believe you should be able to find it in one of

12 the faxes, the road we refer to as Priljevo had been cut off. Therefore,

13 those from Borovo Naselje could no longer reach the hospital. Rather, all

14 the wounded had to go to the Borovo hospital where they also had doctors

15 and nurses. They had to go there to seek help. There were other shelters

16 too, in residential buildings, where we organised medical stations, with

17 doctors and nurses.

18 Q. Thank you very much.

19 MR. MOORE: May I apply, please, for the documents at tab 24 to be

20 made an exhibit?

21 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received.

22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 24.

23 MR. MOORE: We just heard about the 6th of November. 7th of

24 November at tab 25, 65 ter number 223. The ERN numbers are ZA002446 and

25 2453.

Page 629

1 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to turn to page 51 and

2 we will deal with page 50. Again, it's a document that appears to have

3 been faxed by you; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. It's to the international mission and the United Nations; is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I would like to deal with two or three areas of this particular

9 document. Would you be kind enough, please, to go to the second

10 paragraph? And it starts, "on many occasions the YPA aircraft discharged

11 chemical weapons on the civilian population, of which we have material

12 proof."

13 Now, would you be kind enough, please, what it was that caused you

14 to indicate that you believed that chemical weapons were being used on the

15 civilian population?

16 A. Vesna Vukovic, a lady journalist, and myself wanted to use this

17 letter to describe our daily experiences. This is something that we have

18 already discussed, poison gases, smoke bombs, emitting fumes, chemical

19 weapons. This is what we wanted to use the letter for. She said she

20 would translate the letter herself and send the message across by using

21 her radio station. As usual, I myself sent a copy of this letter to the

22 ECMM asking them to forward the letter to the UN.

23 Q. And why do you refer to civilian population?

24 A. Because that's what the situation was. There were still 15.000

25 civilians in the town and the shelling continued on a daily basis, as I

Page 630

1 said.

2 Q. And refer to the discharge chemical weapons of which you have

3 material proof. What proof did you have that your belief that there

4 were -- chemical weapons were being used?

5 A. At the time we did have material proof. Bombs emitting various

6 kinds of poisonous gases. We had preserved those in case members of an

7 international organisation came to see us. We could use the samples to

8 have them examined. Also, we preserved the clothes and boots of Silvana

9 Ivankovic, the woman who had been injured, who had caught fire and smelled

10 of phosphorus. We preserved these in the hospital in order to be able to

11 use these items as proof some day.

12 Q. And do you know what happened to those items that you had set

13 aside for analysis? Did you retain them?

14 A. The items were there for as long as we were there. I have no idea

15 what happened to them later but I assumed -- I assume that the JNA

16 soldiers, or whoever took over, also took these items away.

17 Q. Thank you very much.

18 MR. MOORE: I have no further questions in relation to that

19 document. Might I make application that the tab 25 documents become an

20 exhibit?

21 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received.

22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 25.

23 MR. MOORE: May we move on to tab 26. The index is -- 53 should

24 be 52, 52 should be 53, but apart from that it's correct. Page 52 relates

25 to the B/C/S document 0117/2539. And the English is 0117/2540. They are

Page 631

1 from the 65 ter list at Exhibit 996.

2 Q. Doctor, can I just deal, please, with page 52, as I have it?

3 Which is the original document. Is that your signature at the bottom

4 right-hand corner?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. MOORE: For the Court's assistance because it doesn't show on

7 the translation, if one looks down the core of the document, on the

8 right-hand side, what I will call 4.00, is that right that there are other

9 signatures on the original document?

10 A. There are three signatures.

11 Q. And whose signatures are they, please?

12 A. These are the signatures of the wounded JNA soldiers who were

13 receiving treatment at the Vukovar Hospital.

14 Q. Thank you very much. They don't show on the transcription. Can

15 we deal, then, please, with this document, how it arose, and how the

16 signatures were added to it? We can see that today is the 7th of November

17 and there is reference to throughout the entire day, "the hospital has

18 been the target of the fiercest artillery assault." Do you see that part,

19 the first paragraph?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, if I just move on in general terms, what you say basically is

22 that there is a continuing attack, that there are wounded JNA soldiers,

23 who have by your phrase pur chance survived, and you ask for urgent

24 cease-fire and the withdrawal of the JNA from the municipality. Now, I'd

25 like to deal with the reference to what I will call Mr. Raseta, and it

Page 632

1 reads as follows: "For the verification of the truthfulness for

2 Mr. Raseta and others that are responsible for this massacre on the

3 hospital, I ask the wounded JNA soldiers to confirm with their

4 signatures." And then we have got three names, that they are two

5 soldiers, one is a reservist and actually where they came from.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Why did you adopt this approach of asking for JNA soldiers to add

8 their name and the signature?

9 A. Because it was some sort of hope for me. I reckoned if Raseta was

10 not inclined to believe me, maybe he would believe them because they were,

11 after all, JNA soldiers.

12 Q. Now, who was Raseta? Who did you believe he was and what was his

13 influence as you perceived it to be?

14 A. At the time, I knew him to be a representative of the JNA in

15 Zagreb. I knew that he was the officer negotiating with the Croatian

16 government, negotiating a cease-fire, negotiating about convoys. That's

17 all I knew at the time. I knew he was a general by rank and his name was

18 Andrija Raseta. That was all I knew.

19 Q. Can we deal with the three soldiers themselves? How did it arise

20 that three JNA soldiers came to add their signature to this document,

21 asking or confirming that such an attack was occurring? Can you explain

22 to the Court how it arose?

23 A. On this day, as on any other day, there were shells and bombs

24 falling on the hospital. On this particular day, however, a shell hit the

25 room where these soldiers were, or, rather, a room which at the time was

Page 633

1 being used by a dentist, Zeljko Gottfried. The shell demolished two of

2 the room's walls. I personally went there to see if the people in the

3 room were still alive. We pulled them out of the room. And after that,

4 they were together with all the other wounded and patients in the hallway

5 that you saw in the footage that you showed yesterday. I asked them

6 myself if they were willing to help and sign the appeals that I was

7 sending out. I said this would give us better hope and that maybe the JNA

8 would believe us, since they didn't seem to believe me. All three of them

9 agreed and signed the document. I asked them if they wanted to speak to

10 Raseta on the phone. They said they were glad to do so. This soldier

11 named Sasa picked up the phone and spoke to Raseta from my office.

12 Q. And with regard to Sasa Jovic, you were present when he was

13 speaking or not?

14 A. Yes, I was.

15 Q. What sort of things was he saying to General Raseta?

16 A. He introduced himself to General Raseta. He said his name was

17 Sasa Jovic, that he was in the Vukovar Hospital, and then Raseta asked him

18 if he was the only JNA person there. He asked him who was in the

19 hospital? He said there were many wounded there. Raseta wanted to know

20 about the wounded Croatian soldiers in the hospital, and the soldier told

21 him that there were no soldiers there but, rather, just the sick and

22 wounded and that shells and bombs were falling on the hospital. It was a

23 brief conversation.

24 Q. And after the conversation, did you speak to General Raseta?

25 A. Several times.

Page 634

1 Q. But I want to just deal with this day, after Sasa Jovic had spoken

2 to Raseta. Can you remember if you spoke to him?

3 A. Yes. I spoke to him then. I pleaded with him to tell them to

4 stop shelling the hospital.

5 Q. And as a result of this conversation with Jovic and yourself, did

6 Raseta say anything down the telephone to you?

7 A. He said he would see what he could do.

8 Q. And thereafter, in the days that followed, did the bombardment

9 cease on the hospital?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Can I deal with one aspect of your evidence? You have said that

12 Raseta had asked Jovic about Croatian soldiers at the hospital. We know

13 from your evidence that the upper parts of the hospital were in a very bad

14 state. We have seen photographs as well. To your personal knowledge, was

15 that hospital used by the Croatian soldiers in any military way?

16 A. No. This is one thing that I know for certain.

17 Q. When you say you know it for certain, how do you know that for

18 certain?

19 A. Because I was there every single day. I would arrive at 6.00 in

20 the morning and I would stay until as late as 2.00 or 3.00 a.m. I was

21 all over the hospital. I would go from attic to cellar, the new building,

22 the old building, including the hospital yard. I would certainly have

23 noticed that the hospital was being used for any sort of military purpose,

24 or I would have heard this from someone. I am, however, certain that it

25 wasn't.

Page 635

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 MR. MOORE: I will ask for the documents at tab 26 to be made an

3 exhibit, please.

4 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

5 THE REGISTRAR: They will be Exhibit number 26.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, that is probably a convenient time for a

7 break, and it will allow Dr. Bosanac to move her leg. We will resume at

8 20 past 11.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.56 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 11.25 a.m.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore?

12 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

13 Could I just ask the witness, please, to turn to tab 27, page 55,

14 for her, but I would just like to clarify one matter for whether -- before

15 proceeding, whether we would be seeking to rely on this document or not.

16 I just wish to authentic the document.

17 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to look at page 55? Do

18 you recognise that handwriting?

19 A. Yes. This is the handwriting of my colleague who admitted Silvana

20 Ivankovic. This is her medical history where it is described that she is

21 being admitted into hospital, the findings upon examination are listed

22 here, the examination of the entire body, as well as pertinent injuries.

23 Q. I'm terribly sorry, my microphone or translation was not operating

24 at the time. It's now repaired.

25 Would you be kind enough, please, just to give me a moment and I

Page 636

1 can check what the -- what was said.

2 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, may I deal with did in this way, that we

3 already have got tab 28, which as yet has not been made an exhibit? I

4 would be moving on to tab 28. I believe that there is no objection to

5 that, to some extent it's duplication. It deals with the same witness.

6 And as such, I wouldn't be seeking to put it in as an exhibit, as we would

7 be moving on, as I say, to the following number, tab 28. So unless there

8 is any objection to that course --

9 JUDGE PARKER: So we ignore tab 27?

10 MR. MOORE: Yes. To some extent it duplicates firstly --

11 JUDGE PARKER: Not to some extent. We either ignore it or we

12 don't.

13 MR. MOORE: We ignore it.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

15 MR. MOORE: May we move on, please, to tab 28? That is a document

16 that we've already dealt with. And I seek to make that a Prosecution

17 Exhibit. I made an application earlier on.

18 JUDGE PARKER: We had marked it for identification as 28, because

19 you didn't tender the last exhibit. We will not have a 27 or this will

20 become 27? Which is your preference?

21 MR. MOORE: Well, it's a conundrum. Tab 27 is technically

22 relevant. Of that there is no doubt. What it is is quite simply a

23 duplication of Ivankovic's material.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Can I just a suggestion? Marked for

25 identification, tab 27, as 27. Don't tender it. And then we can forget

Page 637

1 it.

2 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE PARKER: And then move to this one as Exhibit 28.

4 MR. MOORE: Yes, that's an excellent idea. Thank you.

5 May we move on, then, to tab 29?

6 JUDGE PARKER: Just let the court officer catch up. Tab 27 will

7 be marked for identification as 27, and that which is marked for

8 identification as 28 from yesterday will now become Exhibit 28.

9 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. And we move on, then, to tab 29.

10 Tab 29 relates to a report from the hospital. This is the 9th of

11 November. Page number 62. The English translation is 0117/2541 and the

12 B/C/S version is 65 ter number 223, and it's 0117/2541.

13 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to turn up page 23 --

14 sorry, page 63? And I will deal with page 62, the English translation.

15 If we look at page 63, there is a signature at the bottom of that page.

16 Can you confirm if that is your signature or not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. May I deal, then, please, with this document? Basically, it

19 rehearses the level of damage, a baby being born prematurely. You refer

20 to situation being exceptionally serious, constant fire against the

21 hospital walls and roof, and there is no water. May I deal, please, with

22 the fires on the roof and the consequence for the hospital at that time?

23 Can you recollect when it was that the fires were on the walls and roofs?

24 A. You mean on the date, the exact date or do you mean at a certain

25 time during the day? What happened here happened in the afternoon, as is

Page 638

1 stated in the letter.

2 Q. Well, can you tell us, please, then, about the fires that happened

3 in the afternoon?

4 A. Two incendiary shells landed on the roof of the hospital. I was

5 informed by my associates who were outside at the time that the roof was

6 on fire. Then I went upstairs with my associates. We went up to the roof

7 to see the extent of the damage. We saw that between the roof and the

8 walls of the hospital, there was a fire in progress. Then I asked my

9 associates to bring as much water as they could up there, and dump it on

10 the fire, but to be careful so that the others in the hospital would not

11 notice their activities, other workers, patients and so on, so that they

12 wouldn't panic. Fortunately we managed to contain the situation. We

13 poured water on the fire and put it out.

14 Q. And then finally this: The final paragraph relates to the 8th of

15 November, the previous day, and there is reference to 75 new wounded. And

16 a reference to 35 operations being performed on that group. Again, are

17 you able to assist the Court about the percentage of those people who were

18 arriving, how many were civilian? Or apparently civilian?

19 A. It's hard to say now, but the usual would apply in this case as

20 well. Usually 60 to 70 per cent of all admitted into hospital were

21 civilians.

22 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions for that

23 document.

24 MR. MOORE: May I apply, please, for the tab 29 documents to be

25 made an exhibit?

Page 639

1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that with

3 respect to this document, there are two problems. The first one is that

4 we do not know to whom this document was transmitted. My learned friend

5 omitted to ask this. The other problem is that on page 62, at the bottom

6 of the page, there is a PS notation indicating the 10th of November 1991,

7 whereas in the heading, the date listed is the 9th of November.

8 Therefore, it is not entirely clear when this document was composed and by

9 whom and to whom it was sent.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore?

11 MR. MOORE: I'm quite happy to deal with those objections or

12 concerns.

13 Q. Who -- to whom was this document sent, doctor?

14 A. It was sent to the Croatian liaison with the European mission, as

15 were all the previous documents.

16 Q. Thank you. And if you look at your page 63, there is reference,

17 post scriptum in English, although it's not English, the 10th of November,

18 we are still alive but not for long, it would seem. Do you see that

19 entry?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. Can you remember -- and it's dated, of course, the 10th, not the

22 9th. That's the point. Do you know who added that?

23 A. I added that, or, rather, my clerk, to whom I dictated this text.

24 We wrote the text in the afternoon on the 9th. I didn't send it

25 immediately by fax on that day but, rather, on the following day, on the

Page 640

1 10th. And before it was sent by fax, we added this sentence.

2 MR. MOORE: I hope that deals with all the concerns of my learned

3 friend.

4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received as an exhibit.

5 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 29.

7 MR. MOORE: I'd like to move on, then, please, to tab 30. We are

8 moving on to the 11th of November. The tab 30 documents, 996, is a 65 ter

9 number, and 0117/2542, 0117/2543 are the B/C/S ERN numbers and the English

10 is 0117/2547.

11 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to turn to page 64 and

12 65 which are the B/C/S version? And I have got an English translation on

13 the -- page 66.

14 Dealing with this, please, who was it sent to?

15 A. This document was sent once again to the European mission, to the

16 Ministry of Health, namely to Professor Hebrang but in view of the fact

17 that I was unable it go and send the fax personally, I simply sent it to

18 the post office, and it was sent to the Osijek post office.

19 Q. Clearly I have been asking you questions through this period about

20 faxes. We also know that you had a telephone and we know from evidence

21 you gave before the break about a telephone call to General Raseta. If we

22 deal with November, and I know it's difficult to particularise, but how

23 often would you be using your telephone to contact individuals in relation

24 to the JNA or, if I may use that phrase, the Serbian position?

25 A. In the second half of November, I called every day asking to be

Page 641

1 connected to the Main Staff, the office of admiral Brovet and to General

2 Raseta.

3 Q. And when you did that, did you have any success in communicating

4 with them or any of their staff?

5 A. I managed once to speak to somebody. I don't know to whom. Who

6 was a member of the General staff in Belgrade.

7 Q. And what did you say to them?

8 A. I told them who I was. I said that I was calling from the

9 hospital in Vukovar, that I was director of the hospital, and that I was

10 asking them to stop shelling Vukovar and the hospital and to stop the air

11 strikes.

12 Q. And did it have any success at all?

13 A. No.

14 Q. In this letter, you deal with the fact, as you calculate it to be

15 the 81st day of the blockade of Vukovar. Now, that is the first line and

16 you refer to the 81st day of intensive artillery and aircraft fire

17 referring to civilian buildings. Where do you -- I use the phrase

18 Rubicon, where do you say the Rubicon was, or where was the line of when

19 Vukovar was being blockaded because you use 81 days. From what date are

20 you working?

21 A. We started counting that from the 25th of August, when almost all

22 roads were cut off, all roads leading to Vukovar. At the time, there was

23 just one road left, a rather risky one, through Luzac and through the corn

24 fields. That was operational in September. And occasionally, the wounded

25 were evacuated via that road. However, as for the regular supplies, with

Page 642

1 food, with medication and so on, that was disrupted from the 25th of

2 August on, and we considered ourselves to be under siege. So therefore 81

3 days was counting from that day.

4 Q. Thank you. I'm not going to go into paragraphs 1 and 2, where

5 there is numbers mentioned. But I'd like you to deal, please, with an

6 incident that you refer to here on the 11th of November in respect of five

7 heavily wounded persons, of which three have cranial cerebral injuries and

8 you actually make the distance of five kilometres to the hospital. Where

9 had those people been brought from? What district?

10 A. These people were brought in from Borovo Naselje. At the time,

11 the road was cut off. The tanks entered through Luzac. The street that

12 we called Priljevo which connects Vukovar to the -- to Borovo Naselje, and

13 these people were brought by other people from Borovo Naselje to the

14 hospital. They carried them physically in their arms.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. MOORE: My I make application that the tab 30 documents be

17 made an exhibit?

18 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received.

19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 30.

20 MR. MOORE: Tab 31. Tab 31, pages 67 and 68. These are telephone

21 messages. They are from the 65 ter number of Exhibit number of 223.

22 ZA002440 and 2441.

23 Q. Doctor, would you look at page 68, please?

24 MR. MOORE: May it please the Court, I think there may be an error

25 on page 68 index because I see it says English and it's clearly not

Page 643

1 English. So page 67 seems to be the translation. I will have that

2 clarified. Page 68 seems to be the B/C/S.

3 Q. So, doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to turn to page 68?

4 If we look at that particular document, there appears to be your name. Is

5 that right? Bottom right-hand corner.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And it's directed to whom?

8 A. To the European mission in Zagreb.

9 Q. The English translation refers to November the 13th at 1600 hours

10 but even from my untrained eye it's clear that the B/C/S is not that time.

11 It's 1620. But perhaps if I can deal with the content for a moment. May

12 we just look, please, at one or two parts of this document? If one moves

13 down to the fifth paragraph, which starts, "We are inviting all the

14 responsible members," it's under number 2. Do you see that, doctor?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. We are inviting all the responsible members of the European

17 mission and UNICEF, as well as other organisations who wish to help to

18 visit Vukovar afterwards and witness by themselves the massacre upon the

19 population of Vukovar, regardless of nationality. Why do you use the

20 phrase, "massacre of the population of Vukovar, regardless of

21 nationality"? What was it that you saw or are aware of that caused you to

22 use that phrase?

23 A. During those three months, I saw quite a lot. A lot of people who

24 were killed by shells, bombs, people without extremities, without heads.

25 People of all ethnic backgrounds. The victims came from all groups who

Page 644

1 remained in Vukovar. People were killed, houses were destroyed, and this

2 is something that prompted me to write this sentence.

3 Q. Thank you. I don't wish to ask any more questions on that

4 document.

5 MR. MOORE: I'd ask it to be made an exhibit, please.

6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours?

8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Vasic?

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I'm afraid we have once again two

10 problems. This time they both pertain to the English translation. In the

11 B/C/S version of the document, therefore the official version, below the

12 signature of the witness, it says, "Vukovar November 1991." This portion

13 is missing from the English translation. And in the text itself, it

14 says, "Out of 14 newly admitted wounded patients on the 13th of November,"

15 that was translated into English as the 12th of November. In transcript

16 on page 37, line 20, it should say "Vukovar, the 13th of November 1991."

17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, and also in the heading, the time it

18 appears should be 1620 rather than 1600.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. But I believed

20 that that issue was already raised by my learned friend.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Those matters seem self-evident,

22 Mr. Moore.

23 MR. MOORE: Yes. I'm in the Court's hands.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Those matters having been noted in the transcript,

25 the document will be received as Exhibit 31.

Page 645

1 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

2 Tab 32. 14th of November, four days before the surrender of

3 Vukovar. Page 69, page 70, document going to the European mission, in

4 B/C/S it is 65 per number 996, ERN number 0117/2550 and 2551.

5 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to turn to page 69? We

6 will deal with the English translation. Again bottom right-hand corner,

7 appears to be Dr. Vesna Bosanac, and in Vukovar, 14th of November 1991.

8 Do you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. It's to the European mission. Can we just clarify certain parts

11 again of this document? "We are informing you that today on the 14th of

12 November, 1991, the situation in the Vukovar Hospital is getting more and

13 more difficult, considering there are 12 new wounded that have been

14 admitted to the hospital yesterday and there is no water in the hospital,

15 food supplies are getting scarce, and we are running out of medicaments,"

16 and then you refer to injuries and other matters of which I'm not going to

17 deal with. Would you go, then, please to the bottom or the final

18 paragraph, "protect, gentlemen, at least the children of Vukovar. Among

19 the wounded, among which there are 70 per cent of civilians, the gaseous

20 gangrene is in process and we cannot say for how long we will be able to

21 survive. We are once again asking you for peace and for the withdrawal."

22 Now, this has gone again to presumably the Croatian liaison

23 officer at the European mission; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you receive any reply, not only to this document, but to the

Page 646

1 other documents that you had repeatedly been sending to the missions,

2 asking for assistance for the hospital? Firstly can we deal with this in

3 general terms and then specific terms? So what replies were you getting,

4 if any?

5 A. No. I received no reply whatsoever. I only had telephone

6 conversations with Minister Hebrang who promised help to me informed me

7 about the fact that there were negotiations going on, about cease-fire,

8 and evacuation. However, I received no written reply.

9 Q. Did you ever receive any telephone contact from the European

10 missions in respect of these faxes that you sent?

11 A. No. The only thing I received was on the 18th. That was the day

12 when they were supposed to come to Vukovar but failed to appear. That was

13 when I received a note via telephone from the European monitors.

14 Q. All right. We'll come to that in a moment but if I may at this

15 time, then, not ask any further questions in respect of tab 32, make

16 application for the tab 32 document to be Exhibit 32?

17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 32.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

19 MR. MOORE: Can we move on to tab 33? Tab 33 is down as a message

20 from yourself on the 15th of November, ter number 996, and the ERN number

21 is 0117/2552.

22 Q. Would you be kind enough, please, doctor, to turn to number 71,

23 page 71? The English version is on page 72. Is it right, we see your

24 name at the bottom right-hand corner? Do you remember sending this

25 document or note?

Page 647

1 A. Yes, message.

2 Q. It was a message. Well, the way it starts is dear sirs and it

3 concludes with, "Sincerely." Can you remember whether it was a document

4 that was faxed? If we look at page -- well, you have to do. Look at page

5 71. Who typed this? Or where was it typed, is a better question.

6 A. I can't say right now. I know that I dictated this document to

7 someone but I'm not sure if the original was sent or a copy. This is not

8 something that I can say with any certainty.

9 Q. If we deal with the -- with the content, perhaps we can ascertain

10 whether in actual fact you identify the document. Today the 15th of

11 November, we address you from the Vukovar Hospital. Would you be kind

12 enough, please, to read it to yourself and see if you can identify the

13 contents as being the contents of which you created and then subsequently

14 dictated?

15 A. I'm certain that I was the one who dictated this, and I'm able to

16 identify this as the letter that I thought up and then dictated to

17 someone. The only thing I am unable to say is, in view of the fact that

18 the document is not signed, whether this was the very document that was

19 produced when I dictated it or whether this is in fact a copy of the

20 original document.

21 Q. Thank you very much. Might I draw your attention, please, to the

22 third paragraph standing -- starting "we demand that you fully exercise

23 your influence to stop the war, get the Yugoslav army to withdraw from

24 Vukovar." I'd like you to deal with the next part. "Lift the roadblocks

25 to enable transport of food and medicine and allow for repairs of the

Page 648

1 water pipeline in order to prevents infections and an epidemic."

2 Now, the roadblocks and the transportation of food and medicine,

3 to what extent were you able to obtain medicine and/or food in that last

4 period of November, before the surrender?

5 A. The situation with water was extremely difficult. We used the

6 surrounding wells. We collected rain water. The same applied to food.

7 We were given some food from the Red Cross and Caritas storage, mostly

8 canned food, flour. We had nothing to use in order to make bread, so the

9 bread we ate was the hard kind of bread, not the soft one. Medicine was

10 running short too, but we did receive assistance on several occasions.

11 There were planes from Osijek flying over Vukovar at night and they would

12 drop military parcels with blood and the medical necessities. There were

13 two such parcels that were brought to the hospital on the last days.

14 Q. You've mentioned the Red Cross. Where was the Red Cross coming

15 from?

16 A. The Red Cross was operating inside the town.

17 Q. Did you have any significant help coming into Vukovar across the

18 roadblocks? Are you able to assist with that?

19 A. No, no.

20 Q. It's the way I phrased the question, it was badly put. Is it a

21 case that you did not receive assistance or you can't remember?

22 A. We received none. I know that. On the very last days, there were

23 these airplanes that were dropping these parcels with medicine and blood

24 reserves, but no food or any other necessities got through the blockade,

25 since the beginning of October.

Page 649

1 MR. MOORE: Might I apply for the tab 33 document to be made an

2 exhibit?

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic?

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We still

5 don't know who this document was sent to. The only thing that the heading

6 indicates is "from Dr. Vesna Bosanac," but there is another concern I wish

7 to raise about this document, the way it was typed up. If you have a

8 look, all the documents that we have already tendered, documents of the

9 medical centre or leaving the medical centre, were typewritten. It would

10 seem that the case of this document is not consistent with the other

11 cases. It was computer typed, apparently. At the point in time under

12 consideration, I don't think the witness was able to have a document typed

13 up on a computer. This raises some serious doubts concerning the

14 authenticity of this document, particularly whether the document was

15 actually produced by the witness at all.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Do you wish to pursue that any further, Mr. Moore?

17 MR. MOORE: Yes we would have two submissions. The first would

18 be --

19 JUDGE PARKER: Submissions or questions to the witness.

20 MR. MOORE: I was going to deal with submissions in relation to

21 the objections, and then I will --

22 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

23 MR. MOORE: The submissions are very short. They would be quite

24 simply this: Firstly that the doctor has said repeatedly that she has

25 always sent faxes to the liaison officer at the European Commission. My

Page 650

1 understanding was that she distinguished, if that was not the case. The

2 second is simply this: That in our submission, page 31, the type script

3 surely is a question for cross-examination, and therefore, if there is any

4 concern, it can be marked for identification and can be cross-examined on.

5 Those are the only submissions I would make on those concerns.

6 JUDGE PARKER: So do I understand that you propose that it be

7 marked for identification at the moment?

8 MR. MOORE: Yes, I'm perfectly happy for it to be marked for

9 identification but on the basis --

10 JUDGE PARKER: Page 71 I think the transcript notes was 31 which

11 may have been what you said.

12 MR. MOORE: Can I --

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

14 Could I indicate, Mr. Vasic that the Chamber's understanding of

15 the evidence of the witness is that each of these documents was sent by

16 fax to the Croatian liaison officer at the European mission in Zagreb,

17 unless she has specifically indicated otherwise, and on that basis, we

18 would receive the document. In view of your concern about authenticity,

19 Mr. Moore has indicated he will only move it to be marked for

20 identification until after you've had a chance to cross-examine. So we

21 will mark it for identification on that basis as 33.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 MR. MOORE: May I move, please, to tab 34? Tab 34 is a document,

24 65 ter number 996, ERN number 0117/2553.

25 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to turn up page 74? And

Page 651

1 73 appears to be the original. Now, can I just deal with this document?

2 It's right, I think, that it has the heading of the medical centre of

3 Vukovar; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And the message was accepted on the 18th of November, apparently

6 at 8.50 in the morning.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I'd like to just deal, please, with the content of this message.

9 It's originally sent to the apparently the European mission and is headed

10 urgent protest. Would you be kind enough, please, to read the content of

11 that document and confirm whether in actual fact it corresponds with a

12 message you may have sent to the European mission itself on the 18th of

13 November?

14 A. Yes. It's consistent.

15 Q. And who did you send it to, or let me rephrase that? Who did you

16 telephone about this document?

17 A. Again, the liaison officer with the Croatian office of the

18 European mission in Zagreb.

19 Q. So this is the 18th of November, ten to 9.00 in the morning. It

20 reads as follows: "The tanks are still continuously firing on the

21 hospital. There are 600 patients and as many civilians at the hospital in

22 this moment awaiting the evacuation. We are asking for urgent evacuation.

23 The patients and the civilians are supposed to the tank fire, hunger and

24 thirst. We are appealing to the EC mission to urgently come to the

25 hospital." And then you indicate they can safely pass through Luzac.

Page 652

1 Now it may be a case of translation, and if it is, please inform

2 me. But can I deal, please, with the first paragraph? Because it says

3 there are 600 patients, as many civilians, at the hospital at this moment

4 awaiting the evacuation. Not "an" evacuation, but "the." Now, were you

5 at this time expecting to be evacuated? Or was it a case of hoping to be

6 evacuated?

7 A. We were expecting, according to the information I had, on the 18th

8 of November, at 8.00 in the morning, two teams were supposed to arrive.

9 Two Red Cross teams were supposed to arrive at the Vukovar Hospital, one

10 from Ilok, across Mitnica to Vukovar and the hospital, and the other

11 across the Danube by ship from Backa. The European monitors were supposed

12 to arrive too so that the hospital evacuation could commence, which had

13 been agreed by the European monitors in Zagreb. Instead, the tanks opened

14 fire again. It was at this point in time that I picked up the phone again

15 and lodged this protest.

16 Q. Can I just then deal with your evidence for a moment? You said

17 that you were expecting two Red Cross teams, one from Ilok, one across the

18 Danube. Who informed you that there would be these evacuations? When did

19 you find out?

20 A. Minister Hebrang, on the previous day.

21 Q. And where was Minister Hebrang at that time, as far as you were

22 aware?

23 A. In Zagreb.

24 Q. And again, what was your information that Minister Hebrang was

25 doing in Zagreb?

Page 653

1 A. He was involved in negotiations concerning the evacuation,

2 alongside with the International Red Cross, and General Raseta, who was

3 representing the JNA. They wanted me to give them the total number of

4 wounded, those seriously wounded, who required evacuation by an ambulance.

5 The number of personnel and civilians in the hospital, information which I

6 had provided on the previous days. On Sunday, the 17th, I was told that

7 next Monday, on the 18th, representatives of the International Red Cross

8 and European monitors would be arriving in the Vukovar Hospital.

9 Q. Do you know what terms were going to apply for this evacuation?

10 What were the rules for the evacuation of the people from Vukovar and the

11 Vukovar Hospital?

12 A. What do you mean by rules?

13 Q. What did you understand would be the guidelines for the

14 evacuation? Who was going to do what? Who was going to be present where?

15 A. We were supposed to prepare the wounded, to determine how many

16 ambulances would be needed and how many seats on the buses, so in addition

17 to that, they discussed evacuation routes, of which several had been

18 envisaged. They asked me which I believed was the easiest and the

19 simplest route to use. I told them it was the same route that had been

20 used by the convoy, when the Medecins Sans Frontieres first came in. This

21 was the route from the hospital across Luzac through Bogdanovci, Marinci,

22 and Nustar. I was told by Minister Hebrang that this route would indeed

23 be used for the evacuation, that those most seriously wounded, as well as

24 the hospital personnel would be evacuated along that route.

25 Q. On an earlier occasion you had asked for an evacuation to be under

Page 654

1 the control of three parties. The first was JNA, the second was Croatian

2 forces and the third was monitors. Who was going to be controlling this

3 particular evacuation? What was your understanding in relation to that?

4 A. My understanding was the same in relation to this evacuation, that

5 it would be monitored and that it would be conducted by the International

6 Red Cross, with the monitoring of the European monitors obviously.

7 Q. How important was it to you to have the European or any monitors

8 participating in the evacuation at this time?

9 A. It was very important, exceptionally important, to me and to all

10 of us in Vukovar.

11 Q. Why was that?

12 A. I can say why it was exceptionally important to me. The reason

13 was that I had no reason to expect that the evacuation would be swift and

14 effective unless the European monitors and the International Red Cross

15 were present, considering everything that we had been through up to that

16 day, the 18th, our fear was great. Our concern was great about the

17 progress of the evacuation that was in the offing.

18 Q. Was your fear only towards speed or was it affected by other

19 concerns?

20 A. Our fear was about the Yugoslav soldiers who had spent most of

21 their time up to that point demolishing the town and killing people. We

22 were afraid of what would happen once they reached the hospital in the

23 absence of the European monitors and the International Red Cross.

24 Q. Did you ever inform any person of your fears for the safety of

25 many of the patients, in respect of the behaviour of the JNA soldiers?

Page 655

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And who did you tell of this?

3 A. I informed Minister Hebrang. We spoke and my colleagues also

4 spoke to him, for hours during those last few days. We spoke about how we

5 would organise the evacuation.

6 Q. You've told us about the -- expecting two teams of Red Cross to

7 come on the 18th. Did they arrive?

8 A. No.

9 Q. When they didn't arrive, did you do anything?

10 A. Well, I phoned minister Hebrang again, and I also phoned the

11 Office for Cooperation with the European mission in Zagreb.

12 Minister Hebrang replied by saying that he would look into the matter,

13 after which he called again to say that the International Red Cross were

14 on their way, but that they were held up overseeing the surrender of the

15 Croatian soldiers and civilians in the sector south of Vukovar and that

16 they would reach the hospital soon after. This was on the 18th. I

17 believed that he was talking about the surrender or evacuation of

18 Sajmiste. It was only later that I found out that he was in fact talking

19 about the surrender and evacuation of Mitnica. It was at about 12.00 that

20 the European monitors phoned me. This was the one and only time they did.

21 They spoke to me in English and told me that they were sorry, that they

22 were not able to come, that they were detained in the village of

23 Negoslavci and that they would be there as soon as they could.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. MOORE: Can I please apply for the tab 34 document to be made

Page 656

1 an exhibit.

2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 34.

4 MR. MOORE: I would like to move on to tab 36, please.


6 MR. MOORE: 35 in actual fact is a misprint. If my memory serves

7 my correctly 35 relates to the 19th, not the 18th. Trying to do it

8 chronologically. Sorry, perhaps I should have said that. So, 36, please.

9 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to turn to page 76?

10 This comes from 65 ter at number 996 and it's 0117/2554.

11 This is a telephone message received at this page is both B/C/S

12 and the English translation. We have got the name Vesna, Dr. Bosanac,

13 there. It's received allegedly at 10.10 in the morning to the European

14 mission. It's a short message. It says "artillery is attacking again.

15 We were promised that the European mission would come this morning. We

16 are being manipulated again."

17 Now, this is apparently the 18th. Are you able to confirm whether

18 you contacted presumably the Croatian liaison officer at the European

19 mission on that day?

20 A. [No interpretation]

21 Q. And the content itself, does it correspond with the conversation

22 that you had?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you very much.

25 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I wasn't seeking to ask any questions

Page 657

1 about that, merely to make it an exhibit. It's part of a continued course

2 of conduct through the 18th. So I'd make application for tab 36, please.

3 I wonder could that be held back because tab 35 actually is the 19th, it's

4 the very last one.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Why don't you not move at the moment for its

6 admission? We will deal with tab 35 if that is next. It's not next, is

7 it?

8 MR. MOORE: Tab 35 actually is the 19th, not the 18th.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes but are you moving now to tab 35?

10 MR. MOORE: No, I'll go to 36, 37, then I will go to tab 39.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Look, we will make no decision about tab 36 at the

12 moment. We will move again at an appropriate time, and we will now

13 adjourn, given the time, resuming at ten minutes to 1.00.

14 MR. MOORE: Certainly.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore?

18 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. May I move on, please, to tab

19 37? Tab 37 relates to phone messages on the 18th of November at 3.40 in

20 the afternoon. They come from the 65 ter list 996 exhibit and 0117/2556.

21 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to turn to page 77? And

22 we will deal with page 78. This again is apparently a message received,

23 telephone message received, apparently received by A. Kosovic. Would you,

24 would you be kind enough, please, to read the content and confirm whether,

25 in actual fact, it is of a nature and containing references that you were

Page 658

1 aware of, and indeed had communicated to A. Kosovic, if it was A. Kosovic

2 who received it?

3 A. I can confirm that I transmitted this telephone message on the

4 18th of November at 15.40.

5 Q. And you transmitted it to whom, please?

6 A. As I have already told you, I kept calling the liaison office,

7 with the European mission in Zagreb. I don't know who was on duty and who

8 received the message.

9 Q. Would you be kind enough, then, please, to look at the second

10 one-sentence paragraph? And it seems to say, European

11 Community/monitoring group for Vukovar made contact at 12.15 hours from

12 Negoslavci. Their representative will come to the hospital if they allow

13 him. Now, did you communicate that to the European monitoring mission?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Actually, I transmitted the message

16 I received on the telephone from the monitors, the message to the effect

17 that they were unable to come and that they would come to the hospital as

18 soon as they were allowed to. This is what they told me. And then I in

19 turn conveyed further this message about them not coming.


21 Q. But the phrase was, if they will allow him. How were they not

22 able to come to Vukovar? The word "allow" is very specific.

23 A. That was the first time I realised that, namely that they were

24 unable to come on their own to Vukovar, if they wanted to. Instead,

25 somebody else, in this case the Yugoslav People's Army, who had all roads

Page 659

1 leading to Vukovar under their control had to, prior to that, issue

2 permission for them to travel to Vukovar.

3 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions on that

4 document.

5 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, if it meets with the agreement or consent

6 of the court, the documents that one can find on the index running from

7 tab 35 to 39 clearly have been thrown out of sync by tab 35 being in the

8 wrong place. I've mentioned to the court officer. I haven't had a chance

9 to mention to my learned friends, but if in actual fact these documents

10 are dealt with sequentially, as I intend to do, and there is no objection

11 taken to them, then at the end of what I will call the tabbed documents,

12 they can retain their original tab numbers which will then have that

13 exhibit number and not create any problems at all. I'm entirely in the

14 Court --

15 JUDGE PARKER: You will continue on until you've reached the

16 end --

17 MR. MOORE: Yes. Thank you very much indeed. But I would be

18 making application for them to be made an exhibit.

19 May I move, then, to tab 37, please? Tab 37 is a telephone

20 message, 18th of November, sorry, my apologies, tab 39 would be the next

21 one. And it is -- corresponds at the same time. So that's page 80 and

22 page 81. They are from 65 ter 223, and it would be ZA004235 and 4236.

23 Q. Again, doctor, looking at page 81, it seems to be the same nature

24 of document; is that right? Well it is the same document itself,

25 actually, but by a different route.

Page 660

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you very much.

3 MR. MOORE: I would ask that to be made an exhibit in due course.

4 Then moving to tab 38, which is proceeding along on that day, in

5 chronological form, it's a phone message then, approximately three hours

6 later, it's page 79. It is ter 996, ERN number 0117/2557.

7 Q. This, again, allegedly is a telephone call made by you, the timing

8 clearly is in error on the translation. It is at 18.55, which would be

9 6.55 in the evening, but the document says 4.55, but if I just move on,

10 apart from that, in relation to the message, would you be kind enough,

11 please, to just look at who it's addressed to? It seems to be the

12 European mission. Is that exactly the same route that you have taken on

13 previous occasions?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that in actual fact, we have got Dr. Vesna Bosanac, bottom

16 right-hand corner? Again would you be kind enough to read the content of

17 this document and see if it corresponds with a telephone conversation that

18 you had in the late afternoon of the 18th of November?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Would you be kind enough to look at the very bottom paragraph

21 starting, "We implore for an urgent help and arrival of the

22 representatives of the EC mission and International Red Cross respectively

23 without Yugoslav army escort as there are no Croatian army within the

24 hospital surrounding as we were required by the EC mission?"

25 Now, what did you mean by that, please?

Page 661

1 A. The evacuation was discussed prior to that, as I have told you. I

2 talked to Minister Hebrang and he asked me whether there were any Croatian

3 soldiers in the vicinity of the hospital. I told him that there were

4 none. I said that there were just the wounded there, and those who were

5 assigned by the Croatian army to protect the hospital. I thought that

6 I -- if I phrased it in those terms I would speed up the arrival of

7 European monitors and the International Red Cross.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. MOORE: I will make application for that to be made an

10 exhibit. And then finally at tab 35. And this is the 19th of November,

11 tab 35, an apparent phone call made at 9.00 in the morning, 1 minute past

12 9.00. It's ter number 996 0117/2555.

13 Q. Have you got that, Doctor? Page 75, top right-hand corner.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Again, from the medical centre Vukovar,

16 apparently a telephone message, received the European mission, I'm not

17 going to ask that question any more. And Dr. Bosanac is the name. I'll

18 read it out. "We are calling today on the 19th of November 1991 at 1

19 minute past 9.00 that nobody called by phone yet or came in person in

20 connection with the agreed evacuation."

21 When we see "agreed evacuation," what did you mean on the 19th of

22 November?

23 A. I was informed prior to that, by Minister Hebrang, as I've already

24 told you, that an agreement had been signed, an agreement on evacuation of

25 the wounded from the hospital. This is therefore what I had in mind, that

Page 662

1 agreement and the evacuation that had been agreed upon.

2 Q. Thank you very much indeed.

3 Can you just inform us what exactly the situation was on the 19th

4 in the hospital? We have now finished with all these documents and I will

5 seek to make them exhibits but before I do that, can you just answer this

6 one question? What was it like on the 19th, when you sent that telephone

7 message?

8 A. The situation was very grave. The hospital was full of the

9 wounded. The ill people, civilians who arrived from nearby shelters and

10 basements. The situation was grave indeed. We had no more food, water,

11 medicine, as I've mentioned several times already. We were hoping for an

12 evacuation. However, nothing was going on at the time when I sent this

13 telephone message to the European Union.

14 Q. Thank you very much indeed.

15 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, may I then formally apply for tabs 35 to

16 39 inclusive? And I'll separate them out for documentation. So tab 35 we

17 make application for it to be an exhibit.

18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 35.

20 MR. MOORE: Tab 36, the document in relation to that.

21 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received as Exhibit number 36.

22 MR. MOORE: 37.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 37.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

25 MR. MOORE: Tab 38.

Page 663

1 JUDGE PARKER: Now, as I see them, Mr. Moore, tab 37 and tab 39

2 are the identical document but somehow two slightly different translations

3 appear, one with each. I would think don't need both documents.

4 MR. MOORE: Certainly.

5 JUDGE PARKER: So we will have 38 and not 39. Is that it? You've

6 already got 37.

7 MR. MOORE: I was just thinking, yes, I agree. Thank you very

8 much for that.

9 And then tab 35 -- sorry, 39, my apologies.

10 JUDGE PARKER: 39 we won't exhibit because the original document

11 is identical with that in 37. We do receive Exhibit 38.

12 MR. MOORE: Yes. I see that. Thank you very much.

13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit number 38.

14 MR. MOORE: Thank you for that. That concludes the material in

15 what I call tabulated form for faxes. Can I just then move on to one or

16 two different areas? Your Honour with regard to the hard copy, I want to

17 now deal with the evacuation agreement. That is at index 1, but it is

18 certainly with the E-Court system and it may well be deemed appropriate

19 for it to go into E-Court at this stage. So what I was going to do was to

20 deal with the rest of the documents that I have and there aren't very

21 many, to deal with it by way of E-Court. I don't know if that helps.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

23 MR. MOORE: So if I can deal with it in this way:

24 Q. Doctor, you have told us about the belief that there was an

25 evacuation agreement in place. Would you be kind enough to look at a

Page 664

1 document which has been given the title, "The Zagreb evacuation document",

2 the number is 00072600 for the assistance of E-Court.

3 Now, have you ever seen this document before?

4 A. Yes, I have.

5 Q. When did you actually see the document for the first time?

6 A. Once I left the prison in December of 1991.

7 Q. I'm going to deal with things in a slightly unusual way by jumping

8 ahead in time. I think it's right that you yourself, after the hospital

9 was evacuated, on the 21st of -- 20th, 21st of November, you were taken

10 to, as you describe it, prison; is that correct?

11 A. Prior to the evacuation of the hospital.

12 Q. When were you actually taken away?

13 A. In the morning, on the 20th.

14 Q. And where were you taken to eventually?

15 A. I was first taken to the barracks of the Yugoslav army in Vukovar.

16 Q. I think it's right you eventually ended up at Sremska Mitrovica;

17 is that right, in a camp?

18 A. Yes. During the night, between the 20th and the 21st, I was

19 transported from the barracks in Vukovar to the prison in Sremska

20 Mitrovica.

21 Q. Now, when you were at -- I'll call it prison because that's the

22 word you used, when you were held in that camp or prison, how long did you

23 remain there?

24 A. Three weeks.

25 Q. And during that time, did you compile a document giving an account

Page 665

1 of what had happened to you?

2 A. I wrote a statement.

3 Q. And the statement itself, is it in your handwriting?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And when you wrote it, were matters fresh in your memory?

6 A. I think they were.

7 Q. Fresher than today?

8 A. Most likely.

9 Q. Now, and I'm about to ask you to give evidence about what had

10 happened at the hospital principally from the 18th to the 21st of

11 November. Would it assist you with the Court's leave to refresh your

12 memory from that document? So if there are parts that you can't remember

13 by way of question, you can refer to the document to assist your

14 recollection?

15 A. Yes. But actually I did not quite understand your question, the

16 last one.

17 Q. All right. You wrote a document when you were at Sremska

18 Mitrovica. It's in your handwriting, is that right? It was written some

19 weeks, days and weeks, after you had come from the Vukovar Hospital. Do

20 you follow so far?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And in the document, you refer to places, occurrences, names,

23 various details of what happened; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions today, 15 years after the

Page 666

1 event, I'm asking whether, if in actual fact we use the phrase refresh

2 your memory to look at the document if you need to to help you remember

3 what occurred.

4 A. I can take a look at the document, but I would rather not, because

5 everything that happened to me during those last few days, both at the

6 hospital and in prison, is something that I do not like to go back in my

7 mind happily, but if you wish me to, I can go over that document and

8 refresh my memory, if that is necessary.

9 Q. All right. Well, I won't deal with the document at the moment.

10 We will stick to the Zagreb agreement. Would you be kind enough, please,

11 to look at paragraph 3 of the agreement? Because it deals with a route.

12 Have you got that? Could you keep your voice up a little, please?

13 A. Yes. I'll try.

14 Q. Thank you for that. It reads as follows: The convoy will take a

15 route from Vukovar to Priljevo. Do you see that? And then gives a route

16 itself.

17 A. Yes, yes. I do. I do.

18 Q. Now, in relation to the route that was actually taken, did you

19 speak to any person about whether that was the route to take or not?

20 A. You mean on the day of the evacuation or earlier? I did speak

21 about that route to Minister Hebrang on an earlier occasion, and I also

22 spoke to General Raseta. On the 19th of November I spoke to

23 Colonel Mrksic as well.

24 Q. Now, can we deal with your conversation with Colonel Mrksic

25 please? You say that was when?

Page 667

1 A. On the 19th.

2 Q. And was this route discussed or a route discussed?

3 A. We discussed the evacuation. In our conversation, I described to

4 him the situation at the hospital, and asked for the evacuation to

5 commence as quickly as possible. He told me there were several ways to

6 evacuate, through Sid, through Lipovac, and Professor Hebrang had already

7 told me that a route had been agreed on, the following route,

8 Luzac-Bogdanovci-Marinci-Nustar.

9 Q. And did you then take the route or did you take a different route

10 for the evacuation?

11 A. I didn't go. The hospital didn't go. The wounded and everyone

12 else were evacuated along a different route, or at least that's what I

13 heard. So that they passed through Sremska Mitrovica rather than the

14 agreed route.

15 Q. And can you remember the explanation given to you by Colonel

16 Mrksic of why it was that route couldn't be taken, it had to be changed?

17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe this is a

18 leading question.

19 JUDGE PARKER: An element of it does appear to be, Mr. Moore. For

20 the most part it isn't. It's the suggestion that the route had to be

21 changed. Thank you, Mr. Vasic.

22 MR. MOORE: Well, might I respectfully submit that there is

23 reference to a conversation with Colonel Mrksic and if one looks at

24 61:01:13:23.

25 JUDGE PARKER: A different route. It's the word "had" which you

Page 668

1 put in your last question. Instead of "was".

2 MR. MOORE: I'll ask the question in a different way, if that

3 helps.

4 JUDGE PARKER: That may well help.

5 MR. MOORE: I'll try.

6 Q. The route that has been chosen, as far as you were aware, was that

7 route the route that they actually took?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And was any explanation given to you by anyone why you went on a

10 different route?

11 A. When I talked to Colonel Mrksic we discussed a number of possible

12 evacuation routes. He listed some of those that he deemed possible. I

13 told him that a route had already been agreed on and signed in Zagreb.

14 The following route: Hospital-Luzac-Bogdanovci-Marinci-Vinkovci. He said

15 this might prove a problem, because mines would have to be cleared from

16 Zidine - Zidine is a place - and this was the reason that no evacuation

17 could start on the 19th, but, rather, one would have to be organised on

18 the following day, the 20th.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Could I ask you, please, to go to number 5?

20 It reads "the evacuation will include all those wounded or sick undergoing

21 medical treatment in Vukovar Hospital who are judged by the authorities of

22 the hospital to be fit to make the journey."

23 Now, I underline the word "all". Did that correspond or not with

24 your understanding of what was to be agreed? Or to be followed is perhaps

25 a better way of putting it.

Page 669

1 A. Our understanding was that everyone would be evacuated from the

2 hospital. We had a list containing the names of all the wounded who had

3 specified their wish as to which part of Croatia, Yugoslavia, they wanted

4 to be evacuated to, seeing as some of them had families in Zagreb or in

5 Croatia's free territory. Some had requested to go to Belgrade or Novi

6 Sad. At any rate, our expectation certainly was that all would be

7 evacuated. As the hospital demolished as it was, and left with no

8 infrastructure in place, could not continue to operate.

9 Q. Thank you. Could I ask you then, please, to look at paragraph 7,

10 that really deals with the control of the evacuation. "The Republic of

11 Croatia and YPA agree that the EC monitor mission should monitor the whole

12 of the operation, having full access to all elements of the evacuation.

13 The two parties will also facilitate the involvement of the ICRC, Medecins

14 Sans Frontieres, and the Maltese Cross as appropriate to allow them to

15 play such roles as may be decided in supporting and monitoring the

16 evacuation.

17 "You have told us that you had had telephone calls on the 18th of

18 November in relation to the proposed evacuation that you were expecting

19 Red Cross convoys. What was your understanding in relation to the control

20 that was to be exercised by the monitors themselves, when it came to the

21 evacuation of all the people --

22 A. I expected that the evacuation would be conducted in much the same

23 way as one month before, the evacuation that had been organised by the

24 Medecins Sans Frontieres. That the International Red Cross would be

25 conducting the evacuation with the assistance of the European monitors,

Page 670

1 that was my idea of what -- how the evacuation would unfold.

2 Q. Can I deal with this conversation that you had with

3 Colonel Mrksic, the conversation that related to the change of route for

4 whatever reason? In that conversation with Colonel Mrksic, was there any

5 discussion between you and him about who was to control the evacuation,

6 the involvement of the monitors, and who would be evacuated?

7 A. I told him that an agreement had been signed in Zagreb. On behalf

8 of the Croatian government and on behalf of General Raseta who was

9 representing the JNA, as well as on behalf of the ECMM. This agreement

10 specified the exact modality and route to be taken by the evacuation. I

11 told him that on the afternoon of the 19th, in Negoslavci when we talked.

12 If I may be allowed to add something about the translation of this

13 agreement? It says signed for the Republic of Croatia, a signature, and

14 then an illegible signature, 18 over 11 signed for the JNA and then an

15 illegible signature. This illegible handwritten signature belongs to

16 Mr. Georges-Marie Chenu who at the time was head of the monitoring mission

17 in Zagreb.

18 Q. But with regard to the conversation with Colonel Mrksic, you've

19 answered some of the question, but was there any discussion about the

20 responsibility of the monitors in the evacuation?

21 A. I said that the agreement signed in Zagreb envisaged in great

22 detail the options or, rather, the guidelines, as well as the route for

23 this evacuation.

24 Q. And what about the role of the monitors, i.e., the European

25 mission, Medecins Sans Frontieres, Maltese Cross. Who was going to

Page 671

1 control the evacuation? Was that discussed?

2 A. Again, I told him about the agreement. I had not myself seen the

3 agreement before the evacuation but I had been informed of its details.

4 That precisely was the reason why I had requested to go to Negoslavci. I

5 herd from the soldier who was the first to come to the hospital that the

6 European monitors and the International Red Cross were there in Negoslavci

7 and that's why I asked to go to Negoslavci myself, to meet the European

8 monitors. I expected that they would be the first to arrive at the

9 hospital and not the representatives of the JNA. This is something that I

10 shared with Colonel Mrksic. I told him this was the reason I had gone to

11 Negoslavci.

12 Q. And in relation to paragraph 5 of the agreement, which you had not

13 seen when you went to see Colonel Mrksic, that of course refers to all the

14 wounded and you've given evidence about that. Did you have any

15 conversation with Colonel Mrksic about actually who was to be evacuated,

16 whether it was going to be some or whether it was going to be all? Can

17 you help us, please, the details of the discussion with Colonel Mrksic on

18 this topic?

19 A. I told him that all were to be evacuated, all meaning all. The

20 hospital was facing a difficult situation. There was no water.

21 Everything was filthy. Gangrene was rife. There were no medications.

22 And all were to be evacuated.

23 Q. Did Colonel Mrksic express any concerns or reservations about all

24 being taken from the hospital?

25 A. No. My understanding at the time was as follows. He said that

Page 672

1 the situation was now better because the shooting had ceased. He said we

2 would now be better able to conduct an evacuation. Nevertheless, he

3 himself did not know exactly what it was that General Raseta had signed in

4 Zagreb. Raseta was in Zagreb and not on the ground. That would be a

5 rough rendition of his words at the time.

6 Q. Did Colonel Mrksic at any time indicate that he would contact

7 General Raseta to clarify exactly what the terms would be for the

8 evacuation?

9 A. No. This isn't something that he told me, or at least I don't

10 remember.

11 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I was going to go on to a specific topic

12 that takes a little time. When I say a little time, it will take half an

13 hour, I would have thought. I wonder if it would be possible to rise five

14 minutes early and deal with that topic in one fell swoop? I can start it,

15 if you wish.

16 JUDGE PARKER: I think it would be more practical to break now,

17 and come to this topic fresh tomorrow morning.

18 Is there any other matter before we rise?

19 MR. MOORE: Not that I'm aware of. Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE PARKER: If that's the case, then, we will adjourn now to

21 resume at 9.00 a.m. tomorrow morning.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.39 p.m., to

23 be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th day of October,

24 2005, at 9.00 a.m.