1 Wednesday, 26 October 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.42 a.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Yesterday it was foreshadowed that we would hear
6 brief submissions about a couple of procedural matters.
7 Mr. Moore, are you ready in that respect?
8 MR. MOORE: Yes, I am, thank you very much. Would you like me to
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic?
11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, thank you.
12 You cautioned us yesterday that we would have to announce any changes in
13 our team. I am pleased to have this opportunity now to present my
14 co-counsel, Mr. Vlado Domazet. He will be defending Mr. Mrksic with me.
15 Thank you very much, Your Honours. That's all I wanted to say.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, thank you. We welcome your assistant
17 co-counsel. I'm sorry, I had a pillar preventing me realising there was
18 an additional co-counsel.
19 Mr. Moore. Is that Mr. Lukic on his feet?
20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic has a problem with his
21 microphone and the headset too. He's not receiving the right channel.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps he's not tuned in to the correct channel.
23 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is channel 6.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Channel 6, thank you very much.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There is no reception at all and the
1 microphone is not switched on.
2 JUDGE PARKER: We will make arrangements to get you on air as soon
3 as possible, Mr. Lukic. It's not part of a scheme to shorten these
4 proceedings that you are tuned out. I think you'll be able to -- will you
5 be able to follow Mr. Moore in the meantime?
6 Mr. Moore.
7 MR. MOORE: We have no objection to the -- what I'll call the
8 daily bucket, disclosure of that, going to 48 hours. Neither have we any
9 objection to the disclosure of that material prior to the evidence being
10 given but we would ask that these two elements run hand in glove. In
11 actual fact, I have an alternative submission. It's this: If there is
12 going to be problems over authenticity of documents, it can work both
13 ways. I have no problems at all working to a different timetable, which
14 clearly would be within the inherent discretion of the court. If, for
15 example, the Court was minded to do five days or seven days, we have
16 considered it and we believe that with one small exception, we would be
17 able to adhere to that criteria. So, for example, if the daily bucket was
18 to be filled seven days ahead, and that material to be disclosed
19 generally, all we would ask would be a discretion to be exercised
20 benevolently by the Court that clearly there may be documents that will
21 come in, for example, on proofing witnesses, through that seven days. The
22 procedure that is adopted for the Prosecution is that witnesses will often
23 come in three or four days prior to their testimony, and it might well be
24 that some evidence has been given in court in the previous week that we
25 had not anticipated and we would therefore wish to ask the witness whom we
1 are proofing about that document. And therefore, we would clearly make an
2 application to add that document into what I call the daily bucket. That
3 is the only problem that I would actually foresee. So we have no
4 objection to being extended. We have no objection to it being disclosed
5 generally. And if the Court and my learned friends agree, I am working --
6 I am willing to work within a five day or a seven day time span.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore. We will hear what other
8 counsel have to say. Could I mention that we have been a little troubled
9 by the language "daily bucket" and we think might try and use the language
10 "daily folder" which is actually more accurate and less troublesome to
12 MR. MOORE: Can I deal with the daily folder, then, the weekly
13 folder? The one matter that did concern us if I may just conclude my
14 submission this way, is that it is not a criticism in any way at all
15 against the Defence, they are entitled to put their case as they deem
16 appropriate. But if there is going to be arguments about the validity or
17 authenticity of a document, two days may not be sufficient to validate
18 that document. Often we will have copies, let us say, from Zagreb or
19 Belgrade. Often they are difficult to locate. If we work within an
20 extended time span then that will certainly assist us rather than making
21 an application to adjourn and conversely, if my learned friends are
22 calling any documents that we have questions, then clearly we would be in
23 a position to authenticate. In our submission, this is fair. It applies
24 both ways and it will, I hope, stall the danger of application for
25 adjournment. Those are our submissions.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore. Could I inquire, Mr. Lukic,
2 whether you are yet on air? Thank you.
3 Now, Mr. Vasic?
4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The Defence
5 teams have agreed that Mr. Lukic will be the one to present our position
6 on behalf of all the three Defence teams. I'm now passing the floor to
7 him so that he can explain our position to you.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Vasic.
9 Yes, Mr. Lukic?
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
11 morning to my learned friends. I will put forward several positions on
12 behalf of all three teams. Some of my colleagues may decide to join me as
13 we go along but our joint position is as follows: Related to two
14 observations made by the presiding Judge Parker about allegations made in
15 the pre-trial brief that the Defence, at least that's what the brief
16 claims, will challenge the authenticity of a great number of documents.
17 As far as we understand, we have not presented any such explicit
18 positions. I wish to take this opportunity to inform the Trial Chamber
19 that as far as the authenticity is concerned, the Defence will in fact be
20 challenging rather few documents in relation to P65. This will be a small
21 number of documents only and need cause you no further concern in terms of
22 slowing down the E-trial procedure.
23 As for the obligation of the Defence to disclose any documents to
24 be used in cross-examination, and to hand this over to the Registrar, we
25 believe it is quite sufficient for the Registrar to receive from us
1 information on the documents that we intend to use within 24 hours prior
2 to our examination. Then it will be of course up to the Trial Chamber to
3 decide whether this time is reasonable.
4 The question is whether to deliver these documents to the other
5 party prior to our examination. I will here refer to paragraphs, not to
6 Articles; this is paragraph 10 of the directive. The joint position for
7 all three Defence teams is that before a witness is cross-examined, the
8 Prosecution does not need to be served any of the documents likely to be
9 used during cross-examination. First and foremost, we are pondering the
10 meaning of E-Court as a system. We believe the meaning of the relevant
11 directive is to expedite the proceedings and to make it easier for all the
12 parties to use the comprehensive documents that are likely to be used
13 during a trial like this. We do not believe that this directive is in any
14 way compromised if no documents are in fact delivered to the other party
15 before cross-examination. What really matters in terms of expeditiousness
16 and general duration of trial is that the Registrar is given the relevant
17 documents because the Registrar then passes these documents on to all the
18 other parties and everyone in the courtroom.
19 It is in this sense that the Defence has an additional
20 interpretation of the Rules. In our submission, the rules are very
21 specific about which documents and when are to be delivered to the other
22 party, the Prosecution. And our conclusion is based on Rule 65, but the
23 Prosecutor also faces the additional obligation under Rule 66(B) which
24 does not apply to the Defence teams. This is the reason that the decision
25 on reciprocal disclosure was abolished, a Rule that used to be part of the
2 Were documents to be given, documents likely to be used in
3 cross-examination, 24 hours ahead of time, and if at this point in time
4 the party doing the examination-in-chief is still examining and this is
5 likely to be the case very often, this would give the opportunity to the
6 examining party to ask questions in relation to documents that the other
7 party wishes to use. I think the whole point of cross-examination is for
8 the cross-examining party to still be able to in a way surprise a witness
9 and thereby question his credibility. The Defence believes that the
10 fundamental principles of E-court will in no way be compromised if the
11 other party is only served documents when the witness is about to be
12 examined by the other party. I think paragraph 13 of the directive or,
13 rather, its second passage is perfectly clear. If we so agree, hard
14 copies may as well be delivered to the other party when the
15 cross-examination commences. But generally speaking, we believe that the
16 principle of having private document lists, which is enshrined in
17 paragraph 22, would be compromised in its entirety were documents to be
18 forwarded to the other party ahead of time.
19 We are perfectly aware of the fact that we will be facing the same
20 situation when we start examining our witnesses, but then the same applies
21 to all parties alike and the same applies to each and every instance that
22 a party in these proceedings will be cross-examining a witness. Thank
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
25 Could I point out that in the directive for E-Court, in Article 5,
1 both Article 5(10), and Article 5(13) contemplate that the Chamber may
2 order the time for release and, as Mr. Lukic has pointed out, Article
3 5(13) specifies as it were what will happen if no specific time has been
4 ordered by the Chamber. And that is that, where the document is not
5 released until the moment it is used in court, the party using the
6 document, if it is a multi-paged exhibit, must have paper copies ready.
7 What the Chamber is exploring, however, is whether it should order some
8 time beforehand for the release of the document. Mr. Lukic, as we
9 understand him, makes the point that that could disadvantage a party,
10 whether it be Defence or Prosecution, in their cross-examination because
11 they may lose the element of surprise in dealing with the witness. That,
12 of course, could only be so if there was a disclosure to the witness of
13 that document. What we had in contemplation was merely a disclosure to
14 the Chamber and the other parties. If the witness was not then in the
15 box, being in the course of giving evidence, there would be technically
16 scope for the other party, when it first sees the document, to speak to
17 the witness before the witness is called and mention the document. We
18 recognise that as a possibility.
19 So the issue is whether, in trying to determine how most
20 efficiently and fairly to run the trial, there should be some earlier
21 notice of the document to the other side. And in that, can I say the
22 Chamber is encouraged to hear that the Defence at least contemplate
23 challenging the authenticity of only a few documents. It may be that if
24 that is the case, they will be in a position to let the Prosecution know
25 at an earlier time of the documents that they question for authenticity,
1 which will enable the Prosecution to obtain the original where that is
2 possible, if it's not already to hand, and it will be possible, then, to
3 look at the question of authenticity more readily.
4 The fundamental position posed by Mr. Lukic is one as I'm sure all
5 counsel appreciate, which is approached differently in different legal
6 systems in the world, and one which is not specifically determined by the
7 Statute, the Rules, or the directive in this Tribunal. It is a matter for
8 assessment by the Chamber what will be most efficient and fair.
9 The traditional common law approach was the one for which
10 Mr. Lukic argues. That is, the document may be produced at the moment it
11 is used and need not be known to the other party or the witness earlier.
12 The traditional civil law approach requires the disclosure of all
13 documents to the Bench at an early time, which is quite the opposite from
14 the common law. In more recent years, there have been adjustments,
15 particularly in many common law countries, to that procedure. And there
16 is now, for example, both in England and Scotland and in federal
17 jurisdiction in the United States, as there is in some parts of my own
18 country, a procedure now which envisages earlier disclosure of documents.
19 I say all that just to let you understand that the Chamber is well aware
20 of the issues. We will look at the matter and probably announce our
21 decision later in the course of the day. Thank you for your assistance.
22 If there is no other procedural matter, we will arrange now for
23 the witness to come back into court.
24 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, may I just deal with one small matter for
25 the witness? The witness has a broken ankle or heel and I've been told
1 that she was feeling some difficulty yesterday because of pain. Keeping
2 it in the same position causes her significant discomfort. I wonder if
3 it's possible if she could have a short break perhaps after an hour, even
4 if it's just for five minutes.
5 JUDGE PARKER: I think I did invite her to indicate yesterday if
6 she was experiencing difficulty. We are well conscious of the injury.
7 MR. MOORE: Yes.
8 JUDGE PARKER: This morning, as we have had necessarily a later
9 than usual start, our working sessions will actually be just only a little
10 over an hour each.
11 MR. MOORE: Yes.
12 JUDGE PARKER: So I think we will by that means accommodate the
13 problem today.
14 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
15 JUDGE PARKER: And we will keep it in mind tomorrow.
16 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
18 Could I indicate that the Chamber has had time enough to consider
19 the matter now that has been dealt with in the submissions? We take the
20 view that for the present, although we will keep the matter under review,
21 for the present, we will not order any early disclosure of documents to
22 the other party. We will order that 48 hours before a document is
23 intended to be used, it will be released to the court Registry officer for
24 inclusion in the confidential folder of that officer, but not that it be
25 disclosed to any other party. And we will monitor whether that proves an
1 efficient and effective system. In so doing, we are seeking to preserve
2 what had been the position before the introduction of the electronic court
4 I think that's all that need be said at this moment about that
5 matter. Thank you for your submissions.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, doctor.
8 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
9 JUDGE PARKER: As I indicated yesterday, if you experience any
10 particular discomfort with your injury, please indicate and we will
11 adjourn or make whatever arrangements are necessary to help you. If I
12 could remind you of the affirmation you made at the beginning of your
13 evidence, it still applies.
14 WITNESS: VESNA BOSANAC [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Moore.
17 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
18 Examined by Mr. Moore: [Continued]
19 Q. Can we turn, please, to tab 20 of the same documents? And also
20 tab 21?
21 MR. MOORE: With the Court's leave I'm going to try to do it by
22 date so we can move a little more quickly. So that is page 39 and 40, for
23 tab 20. That is 65 ter number 223 and that's ZA002285, the B/C/S is
24 ZA002285 also. And then tab 21 are pages 41, 42, they come from 65 ter
25 number 996, the numbers there are 0117/2528, 2529.
1 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to just look at, in your
2 case, page 40. Really it is the same procedure that we dealt with in
3 respect of phone calls yesterday. This reads, "From Dr. Bosanac", it's to
4 the European mission, from Dr. Bosanac in Vukovar stated that today
5 November the 2nd with aircraft from the air force and anti-aircraft
6 Defence a bombardment was executed on the already-ruined hospital in
7 Vukovar and the shelter and its vicinity. At that time in the hospital
8 there were approximately 50 children and eight newborns are expected. As
9 a result of the bombing, three casualties. Now, as I've already said the
10 document is not something you have sent but looking at the content, can
11 you recollect firstly whether you contacted anyone by telephone or any
12 other means to inform them of such an event?
13 A. Yes. I had a telephone of the main Defence staff in Vinkovci. I
14 had their telephone number and I informed them via telephone because that
15 was the only communication link I had. I did not have a fax at that
16 point. Rather, I made a phone call. And then I think they forwarded the
17 message that I gave them over the phone elsewhere.
18 Q. And with regard to a bombardment, on the hospital, was it a case
19 of it specifically being on the hospital or around the hospital? Can you
21 A. Yes. They bombed the hospital and the area around the hospital.
22 Q. Thank you. Can we move on, please, to tab 21? In your case, it's
23 page 41.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Are you tendering that?
25 MR. MOORE: I was going to tender -- yes, I am going to tender. I
1 was going to tender them collectively but I -- I can do that individually.
2 My fault. May I make an application to tender that, please.
3 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received.
4 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much, indeed.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 20.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, am I anticipating too much?
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think it was wise of you to separate
8 these two documents. As for the document marked 2285, it seems to be an
9 original, whereas the document on page 40 is the translation into B/C/S.
10 So it seems to be a transcript of a document in English, because it states
11 here that there is a signature but we do not see one. Therefore, I ask
12 that this document be marked for identification only so that we can
13 establish what is the actual -- the original content of the document and
14 then who translated it.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Is it an MFI, Mr. Moore? Marked for
17 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. There are so many initials at
18 times one forgets.
19 JUDGE PARKER: I thought that would have been an old Irish one as
21 MR. MOORE: Regrettably not. Yes, please, thank you very much
23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be marked for identification 20, not
24 Exhibit 20.
25 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
1 May we move on to tab 21? I've already referred for the record
2 the page number.
3 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to look at page 41? And
4 I will deal with the page 42. Can we please look at the bottom of this
5 document that you apparently sent? It's dated the 2nd of November. Is
6 that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you very much. And the people that you're sending it to,
9 Admiral Brovet, President Tudjman, Minister Hebrang, General Tus and the
10 EC monitor mission. Was it you who decided to send this letter or fax
11 with copies to these individuals?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Why did you choose these five nominated individuals?
14 A. I was hoping that these five people could do something to stop the
15 bombing of the hospital and further destruction and killing.
16 Q. What effect was the bombardment having on the hospital and the
18 A. It had a tremendous impact. People were dying. People died on
19 that day. This man mentioned here was a handy man in the boiler room and
20 he just went out of the boiler room when the shell landed and killed him
21 on the spot. It was very difficult to work under those conditions, to
22 maintain high spirits. People were scared.
23 Q. I'm not going to go through the details of the document itself.
24 If we look at the final paragraph, the second sentence, certainly in
25 English translation, "most urgently we are sending an appeal to the
1 command of the JNA for a cease-fire." Was this the first time that you
2 had asked for a cease-fire in relation to the, as you perceived, the
3 attacks on the hospital and general area?
4 A. No. That was not the first time. I sent such requests earlier as
5 well. I asked that the attack -- attacks on the hospital cease. That was
6 back in August.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. MOORE: Could it I, please, for tab 21 to be made an exhibit?
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 21.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
11 MR. MOORE: May we move on to tab 22? Tab 22 is at 65 ter number
12 996, the ERN number is 0117/2529. And 2530. The original document is
13 2530, Doctor, your page 43, top right-hand corner. This is the following
14 day the 3rd of November, approximately two weeks before the capitulation
15 of the Croatian defenders. May we just read this, please? "Vukovar is
16 submitted to a severe attack." And then you go on to nominate aircraft,
17 tanks, multiple-rocket launchers, large calibre machine-guns, and then in
18 the previous day, 2nd of November, which we have just seen, 87 new wounded
19 persons were brought to the hospital and 18 this morning. So "the number
20 of wounded persons mostly civilians including women and children, has
21 reached 350. The situation has become extremely critical. Medication
22 supplies are almost exhausted. We are desperate. We are addressing
23 anyone who can help us before it is not too late."
24 May I deal with the second paragraph, please? The number that you
25 were referring to reaching 350, you're saying that it is mostly civilians.
1 Are you able, and I know it is difficult, are you able to assess what
2 percentage of that 350 in the hospital were wounded civilians?
3 A. It's hard to say this now looking back. However, I know that it
4 was between 65 and 70 per cent. What I can say, based on what I remember
5 from those days, is that civilians were mostly wounded in shell explosions
6 and bomb explosions. These injuries were terrible. There had to be
7 amputations of legs, arms. Young people and the defenders of Vukovar,
8 Croatian soldiers, who at the time were members of the National Guards
9 Corps and policemen mostly had firearm wounds through and through wounds,
10 although that wasn't the sole injury that they typically had. Some of
11 them also had injuries caused by shells. Those who were on the front line
12 knew how to protect themselves, whereas civilians who went out of the
13 hospital to get something, such as to repair a roof that had been
14 destroyed the previous day, would normally be injured by shell explosions
15 and those were extremely serious injuries.
16 Q. Thank you. Tab 22, may I make application for that to be made an
17 exhibit, please?
18 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 22.
20 MR. MOORE: Moving on to 23. 23 is the day after, the 4th of
22 Q. It's from 65 ter 223, and ZA002456, 2457, and 2458, the 4th of
23 November. The original exhibit is at page 46, the translation, which is
24 slightly unusual in its form, is page 45. Would you be kind enough, then,
25 Doctor, please, to look at page 46? In that, there is reference clearly
1 about urging international influence to stop the artillery and there is
2 reference to the hospital. But again, I just want to move on to the
3 bottom of that document, which really can be found at page 47. There
4 seems to be a series of telephone numbers. Now, did you send this
5 document or not? Can you remember?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. And the people that we see nominated clearly appear to be
8 politicians, we have got Carrington, Major from Britain, Kohl from Germany
9 and various other nationalities that don't need repeating perhaps. Why
10 did you nominate those people to receive this correspondence?
11 A. Because I had information that those were the people who at the
12 time held important positions in Europe, and had a significant amount of
13 influence that they could use in order to put an end to the war in
14 Vukovar, to the shelling and the killing of people.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, at the bottom of the typed copy, on page 45,
16 there is a telephone message. For my part, I didn't check, I confess
17 that, there is reference to a telephone message being received from
18 Dr. Bosanac at 3.20 in the afternoon of November the 4th. It reads as
19 follows, "Could you please add this to my letter sent to you today, the
20 following: On this very day," i.e. the 4th of November, "in the last half
21 hour, the hospital was hit over 90 times." That content, does that
22 correspond with the recollection that you have for that day or not? That
23 the hospital was hit 90 times and you asked for it to be added to the
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. MOORE: Again, I'd ask for tab 23, please, to be made an
3 exhibit. I don't know if I have to read in the ERN numbers again.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Could you assist the Chamber, Mr. Moore? The
5 telephone message is on the English version. It does not appear on the
6 B/C/S version. Are you able to clarify which was sent?
7 MR. MOORE: Yes, of course, I will try.
8 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough just to help us with a query? If
9 one looks at page 46/47, which is typed and clearly in B/C/S, we have the
10 telephone numbers and the names of the politicians whom you wanted to have
11 contacted. In the English translation, we don't have the telephone
12 numbers but we do have --
13 JUDGE PARKER: We do, if you turn to the second page of the B/C/S.
14 MR. MOORE: But not in the English.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Oh, I beg your pardon, yes.
16 MR. MOORE:
17 Q. But if -- in the English translation, there is reference to your
18 telephone call, which I've asked you about that. If one looks at the page
19 46 and indeed 47, is there any reference there to that telephone
20 conversation? Can you help us?
21 A. I had telephone numbers and fax numbers of the Croatian liaison
22 office with the European monitoring mission, which was located in the
23 hotel "I" in Zagreb. I sent my faxes there. I made phone calls there.
24 And I asked them to forward my calls for help, both written ones and
25 verbal ones, to these instances. There, in the Croatian liaison office,
1 they translated both my written and oral cries for help into English.
2 Q. Thank you very much.
3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours?
4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With respect to this document, I am
6 concerned that we have not clarified something. On pages 46 and 47, we do
7 not see the actual message. We only see it in the English version on page
8 45. So we don't know who received this message that was sent by the
9 witness. And we don't know what is the original document here. I hope my
10 learned friend could clarify this with the witness.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic. It is still obscure,
12 Mr. Moore. I suspect the effect of the evidence was that an e-mail or fax
13 sent to Zagreb to the Croatian liaison office at the ECMM, who then sent
14 letters reflecting the fax. If so, that leaves me a little confused as to
15 the signature on the bottom of the B/C/S version. Or maybe the B/C/S
16 version is the fax.
17 MR. MOORE: Certainly --
18 JUDGE PARKER: You can add that lot into Mr. Vasic's problem and
19 try and clear up some of the issues.
20 MR. MOORE: Of course, I will.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
22 MR. MOORE:
23 Q. If we look at page 46, doctor -- if we look at a signature,
24 please, at the bottom right-hand corner, at page 46, whose signature is
1 A. Mine.
2 Q. And when you contacted the liaison officer, was that by fax or
4 A. Both fax and telephone. Different persons called back. I'm not
5 sure who was in charge of the phone and fax machine at the exact time when
6 I sent this.
7 Q. If one actually looks at page 46, and you look at the top
8 left-hand corner, and I do mean the extreme left-hand corner, so go to
9 page 46, literally the top of the page, there appears to be a date, 04/11,
10 and then the number 91, and then 1421. But that's a little more difficult
11 to read. Now, are you able to recollect -- and I know how difficult it
12 can be -- clearly this is a fax that's dated the 4th of November. Can you
13 remember when you sent it off, whether it was morning or afternoon or
14 whether it was sent when it was dark? Are you able to assist?
15 A. It's difficult to say about this particular fax. I do know that I
16 wrote most of the faxes in the morning or during the day, and I would have
17 them sent immediately, but it's very difficult to say anything more
18 specific in relation to this particular fax. These numbers that you can
19 see at the top of the page, not clearly, are here because the faxes and
20 the documents that we are talking about now are something that I received
21 when I left prison and arrived in Zagreb. These were given to me by the
22 liaison people with the ECMM. The original copies, the original
23 documents, remained in the Vukovar Hospital following occupation.
24 Q. Well, I would still make application for these documents to be
25 made an exhibit.
1 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.
2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 23.
3 MR. MOORE: That was the 4th of November. May we move, please, to
4 tab 24?
5 Q. Tab 24, pages 48, 49. Again it's to the European mission two days
6 later, 65 ter number is 223, and the ERN numbers are ZA002454, 2456. I
7 wasn't going to deal with this in any great detail, but can I just draw
8 your attention, please, to halfway down the one paragraph itself? There
9 appears to be in the translation, English translation, on page 48, "the
10 whole town lives underground in shelters and basements."
11 Can you find that particular part?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Would you be kind enough, please, to explain to the Court what the
14 living conditions were at that time that caused you to write that
16 A. The conditions were difficult. There were 15.000 people still
17 remaining in Vukovar. We organised these people around atomic shelters in
18 residential buildings. However, there were far too few of those. There
19 were other shelters around the town of Vukovar, in wine cellars, in
20 cellars built under residential buildings. There was a shelter near the
21 hospital, near a school building, and this cellar was quite solid. There
22 was another one in Borovo Naselje, in the Borovo factory itself. In the
23 factory building there were two shelters. One of them had been used as a
24 small hospital, a small health station, where we brought patients. The
25 whole town was living in its cellars because as soon as people left their
1 shelter, they would immediately be casualties. There was no water and no
3 Q. And when you refer to Borovo Naselje, again how far away is that
4 from what I will call the Vukovar Hospital, in kilometres?
5 A. About six or seven kilometres, thereabouts. I can't be certain.
6 Q. And with regard to the injuries that you received at the Vukovar
7 Hospital, let us deal with November, although I don't exclude other
8 months, did you ever receive civilian casualties from the Borovo Naselje
9 district and other districts?
10 A. At this time, about two weeks before the fall, I can't remember
11 the specific date but I believe you should be able to find it in one of
12 the faxes, the road we refer to as Priljevo had been cut off. Therefore,
13 those from Borovo Naselje could no longer reach the hospital. Rather, all
14 the wounded had to go to the Borovo hospital where they also had doctors
15 and nurses. They had to go there to seek help. There were other shelters
16 too, in residential buildings, where we organised medical stations, with
17 doctors and nurses.
18 Q. Thank you very much.
19 MR. MOORE: May I apply, please, for the documents at tab 24 to be
20 made an exhibit?
21 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 24.
23 MR. MOORE: We just heard about the 6th of November. 7th of
24 November at tab 25, 65 ter number 223. The ERN numbers are ZA002446 and
1 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to turn to page 51 and
2 we will deal with page 50. Again, it's a document that appears to have
3 been faxed by you; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It's to the international mission and the United Nations; is that
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I would like to deal with two or three areas of this particular
9 document. Would you be kind enough, please, to go to the second
10 paragraph? And it starts, "on many occasions the YPA aircraft discharged
11 chemical weapons on the civilian population, of which we have material
13 Now, would you be kind enough, please, what it was that caused you
14 to indicate that you believed that chemical weapons were being used on the
15 civilian population?
16 A. Vesna Vukovic, a lady journalist, and myself wanted to use this
17 letter to describe our daily experiences. This is something that we have
18 already discussed, poison gases, smoke bombs, emitting fumes, chemical
19 weapons. This is what we wanted to use the letter for. She said she
20 would translate the letter herself and send the message across by using
21 her radio station. As usual, I myself sent a copy of this letter to the
22 ECMM asking them to forward the letter to the UN.
23 Q. And why do you refer to civilian population?
24 A. Because that's what the situation was. There were still 15.000
25 civilians in the town and the shelling continued on a daily basis, as I
2 Q. And refer to the discharge chemical weapons of which you have
3 material proof. What proof did you have that your belief that there
4 were -- chemical weapons were being used?
5 A. At the time we did have material proof. Bombs emitting various
6 kinds of poisonous gases. We had preserved those in case members of an
7 international organisation came to see us. We could use the samples to
8 have them examined. Also, we preserved the clothes and boots of Silvana
9 Ivankovic, the woman who had been injured, who had caught fire and smelled
10 of phosphorus. We preserved these in the hospital in order to be able to
11 use these items as proof some day.
12 Q. And do you know what happened to those items that you had set
13 aside for analysis? Did you retain them?
14 A. The items were there for as long as we were there. I have no idea
15 what happened to them later but I assumed -- I assume that the JNA
16 soldiers, or whoever took over, also took these items away.
17 Q. Thank you very much.
18 MR. MOORE: I have no further questions in relation to that
19 document. Might I make application that the tab 25 documents become an
21 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 25.
23 MR. MOORE: May we move on to tab 26. The index is -- 53 should
24 be 52, 52 should be 53, but apart from that it's correct. Page 52 relates
25 to the B/C/S document 0117/2539. And the English is 0117/2540. They are
1 from the 65 ter list at Exhibit 996.
2 Q. Doctor, can I just deal, please, with page 52, as I have it?
3 Which is the original document. Is that your signature at the bottom
4 right-hand corner?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. MOORE: For the Court's assistance because it doesn't show on
7 the translation, if one looks down the core of the document, on the
8 right-hand side, what I will call 4.00, is that right that there are other
9 signatures on the original document?
10 A. There are three signatures.
11 Q. And whose signatures are they, please?
12 A. These are the signatures of the wounded JNA soldiers who were
13 receiving treatment at the Vukovar Hospital.
14 Q. Thank you very much. They don't show on the transcription. Can
15 we deal, then, please, with this document, how it arose, and how the
16 signatures were added to it? We can see that today is the 7th of November
17 and there is reference to throughout the entire day, "the hospital has
18 been the target of the fiercest artillery assault." Do you see that part,
19 the first paragraph?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, if I just move on in general terms, what you say basically is
22 that there is a continuing attack, that there are wounded JNA soldiers,
23 who have by your phrase pur chance survived, and you ask for urgent
24 cease-fire and the withdrawal of the JNA from the municipality. Now, I'd
25 like to deal with the reference to what I will call Mr. Raseta, and it
1 reads as follows: "For the verification of the truthfulness for
2 Mr. Raseta and others that are responsible for this massacre on the
3 hospital, I ask the wounded JNA soldiers to confirm with their
4 signatures." And then we have got three names, that they are two
5 soldiers, one is a reservist and actually where they came from.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Why did you adopt this approach of asking for JNA soldiers to add
8 their name and the signature?
9 A. Because it was some sort of hope for me. I reckoned if Raseta was
10 not inclined to believe me, maybe he would believe them because they were,
11 after all, JNA soldiers.
12 Q. Now, who was Raseta? Who did you believe he was and what was his
13 influence as you perceived it to be?
14 A. At the time, I knew him to be a representative of the JNA in
15 Zagreb. I knew that he was the officer negotiating with the Croatian
16 government, negotiating a cease-fire, negotiating about convoys. That's
17 all I knew at the time. I knew he was a general by rank and his name was
18 Andrija Raseta. That was all I knew.
19 Q. Can we deal with the three soldiers themselves? How did it arise
20 that three JNA soldiers came to add their signature to this document,
21 asking or confirming that such an attack was occurring? Can you explain
22 to the Court how it arose?
23 A. On this day, as on any other day, there were shells and bombs
24 falling on the hospital. On this particular day, however, a shell hit the
25 room where these soldiers were, or, rather, a room which at the time was
1 being used by a dentist, Zeljko Gottfried. The shell demolished two of
2 the room's walls. I personally went there to see if the people in the
3 room were still alive. We pulled them out of the room. And after that,
4 they were together with all the other wounded and patients in the hallway
5 that you saw in the footage that you showed yesterday. I asked them
6 myself if they were willing to help and sign the appeals that I was
7 sending out. I said this would give us better hope and that maybe the JNA
8 would believe us, since they didn't seem to believe me. All three of them
9 agreed and signed the document. I asked them if they wanted to speak to
10 Raseta on the phone. They said they were glad to do so. This soldier
11 named Sasa picked up the phone and spoke to Raseta from my office.
12 Q. And with regard to Sasa Jovic, you were present when he was
13 speaking or not?
14 A. Yes, I was.
15 Q. What sort of things was he saying to General Raseta?
16 A. He introduced himself to General Raseta. He said his name was
17 Sasa Jovic, that he was in the Vukovar Hospital, and then Raseta asked him
18 if he was the only JNA person there. He asked him who was in the
19 hospital? He said there were many wounded there. Raseta wanted to know
20 about the wounded Croatian soldiers in the hospital, and the soldier told
21 him that there were no soldiers there but, rather, just the sick and
22 wounded and that shells and bombs were falling on the hospital. It was a
23 brief conversation.
24 Q. And after the conversation, did you speak to General Raseta?
25 A. Several times.
1 Q. But I want to just deal with this day, after Sasa Jovic had spoken
2 to Raseta. Can you remember if you spoke to him?
3 A. Yes. I spoke to him then. I pleaded with him to tell them to
4 stop shelling the hospital.
5 Q. And as a result of this conversation with Jovic and yourself, did
6 Raseta say anything down the telephone to you?
7 A. He said he would see what he could do.
8 Q. And thereafter, in the days that followed, did the bombardment
9 cease on the hospital?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Can I deal with one aspect of your evidence? You have said that
12 Raseta had asked Jovic about Croatian soldiers at the hospital. We know
13 from your evidence that the upper parts of the hospital were in a very bad
14 state. We have seen photographs as well. To your personal knowledge, was
15 that hospital used by the Croatian soldiers in any military way?
16 A. No. This is one thing that I know for certain.
17 Q. When you say you know it for certain, how do you know that for
19 A. Because I was there every single day. I would arrive at 6.00 in
20 the morning and I would stay until as late as 2.00 or 3.00 a.m. I was
21 all over the hospital. I would go from attic to cellar, the new building,
22 the old building, including the hospital yard. I would certainly have
23 noticed that the hospital was being used for any sort of military purpose,
24 or I would have heard this from someone. I am, however, certain that it
1 Q. Thank you very much.
2 MR. MOORE: I will ask for the documents at tab 26 to be made an
3 exhibit, please.
4 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: They will be Exhibit number 26.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, that is probably a convenient time for a
7 break, and it will allow Dr. Bosanac to move her leg. We will resume at
8 20 past 11.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.56 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 11.25 a.m.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore?
12 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
13 Could I just ask the witness, please, to turn to tab 27, page 55,
14 for her, but I would just like to clarify one matter for whether -- before
15 proceeding, whether we would be seeking to rely on this document or not.
16 I just wish to authentic the document.
17 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to look at page 55? Do
18 you recognise that handwriting?
19 A. Yes. This is the handwriting of my colleague who admitted Silvana
20 Ivankovic. This is her medical history where it is described that she is
21 being admitted into hospital, the findings upon examination are listed
22 here, the examination of the entire body, as well as pertinent injuries.
23 Q. I'm terribly sorry, my microphone or translation was not operating
24 at the time. It's now repaired.
25 Would you be kind enough, please, just to give me a moment and I
1 can check what the -- what was said.
2 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, may I deal with did in this way, that we
3 already have got tab 28, which as yet has not been made an exhibit? I
4 would be moving on to tab 28. I believe that there is no objection to
5 that, to some extent it's duplication. It deals with the same witness.
6 And as such, I wouldn't be seeking to put it in as an exhibit, as we would
7 be moving on, as I say, to the following number, tab 28. So unless there
8 is any objection to that course --
9 JUDGE PARKER: So we ignore tab 27?
10 MR. MOORE: Yes. To some extent it duplicates firstly --
11 JUDGE PARKER: Not to some extent. We either ignore it or we
13 MR. MOORE: We ignore it.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
15 MR. MOORE: May we move on, please, to tab 28? That is a document
16 that we've already dealt with. And I seek to make that a Prosecution
17 Exhibit. I made an application earlier on.
18 JUDGE PARKER: We had marked it for identification as 28, because
19 you didn't tender the last exhibit. We will not have a 27 or this will
20 become 27? Which is your preference?
21 MR. MOORE: Well, it's a conundrum. Tab 27 is technically
22 relevant. Of that there is no doubt. What it is is quite simply a
23 duplication of Ivankovic's material.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Can I just a suggestion? Marked for
25 identification, tab 27, as 27. Don't tender it. And then we can forget
2 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
3 JUDGE PARKER: And then move to this one as Exhibit 28.
4 MR. MOORE: Yes, that's an excellent idea. Thank you.
5 May we move on, then, to tab 29?
6 JUDGE PARKER: Just let the court officer catch up. Tab 27 will
7 be marked for identification as 27, and that which is marked for
8 identification as 28 from yesterday will now become Exhibit 28.
9 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. And we move on, then, to tab 29.
10 Tab 29 relates to a report from the hospital. This is the 9th of
11 November. Page number 62. The English translation is 0117/2541 and the
12 B/C/S version is 65 ter number 223, and it's 0117/2541.
13 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to turn up page 23 --
14 sorry, page 63? And I will deal with page 62, the English translation.
15 If we look at page 63, there is a signature at the bottom of that page.
16 Can you confirm if that is your signature or not?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. May I deal, then, please, with this document? Basically, it
19 rehearses the level of damage, a baby being born prematurely. You refer
20 to situation being exceptionally serious, constant fire against the
21 hospital walls and roof, and there is no water. May I deal, please, with
22 the fires on the roof and the consequence for the hospital at that time?
23 Can you recollect when it was that the fires were on the walls and roofs?
24 A. You mean on the date, the exact date or do you mean at a certain
25 time during the day? What happened here happened in the afternoon, as is
1 stated in the letter.
2 Q. Well, can you tell us, please, then, about the fires that happened
3 in the afternoon?
4 A. Two incendiary shells landed on the roof of the hospital. I was
5 informed by my associates who were outside at the time that the roof was
6 on fire. Then I went upstairs with my associates. We went up to the roof
7 to see the extent of the damage. We saw that between the roof and the
8 walls of the hospital, there was a fire in progress. Then I asked my
9 associates to bring as much water as they could up there, and dump it on
10 the fire, but to be careful so that the others in the hospital would not
11 notice their activities, other workers, patients and so on, so that they
12 wouldn't panic. Fortunately we managed to contain the situation. We
13 poured water on the fire and put it out.
14 Q. And then finally this: The final paragraph relates to the 8th of
15 November, the previous day, and there is reference to 75 new wounded. And
16 a reference to 35 operations being performed on that group. Again, are
17 you able to assist the Court about the percentage of those people who were
18 arriving, how many were civilian? Or apparently civilian?
19 A. It's hard to say now, but the usual would apply in this case as
20 well. Usually 60 to 70 per cent of all admitted into hospital were
22 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions for that
24 MR. MOORE: May I apply, please, for the tab 29 documents to be
25 made an exhibit?
1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that with
3 respect to this document, there are two problems. The first one is that
4 we do not know to whom this document was transmitted. My learned friend
5 omitted to ask this. The other problem is that on page 62, at the bottom
6 of the page, there is a PS notation indicating the 10th of November 1991,
7 whereas in the heading, the date listed is the 9th of November.
8 Therefore, it is not entirely clear when this document was composed and by
9 whom and to whom it was sent.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore?
11 MR. MOORE: I'm quite happy to deal with those objections or
13 Q. Who -- to whom was this document sent, doctor?
14 A. It was sent to the Croatian liaison with the European mission, as
15 were all the previous documents.
16 Q. Thank you. And if you look at your page 63, there is reference,
17 post scriptum in English, although it's not English, the 10th of November,
18 we are still alive but not for long, it would seem. Do you see that
20 A. I do.
21 Q. Can you remember -- and it's dated, of course, the 10th, not the
22 9th. That's the point. Do you know who added that?
23 A. I added that, or, rather, my clerk, to whom I dictated this text.
24 We wrote the text in the afternoon on the 9th. I didn't send it
25 immediately by fax on that day but, rather, on the following day, on the
1 10th. And before it was sent by fax, we added this sentence.
2 MR. MOORE: I hope that deals with all the concerns of my learned
4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received as an exhibit.
5 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 29.
7 MR. MOORE: I'd like to move on, then, please, to tab 30. We are
8 moving on to the 11th of November. The tab 30 documents, 996, is a 65 ter
9 number, and 0117/2542, 0117/2543 are the B/C/S ERN numbers and the English
10 is 0117/2547.
11 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to turn to page 64 and
12 65 which are the B/C/S version? And I have got an English translation on
13 the -- page 66.
14 Dealing with this, please, who was it sent to?
15 A. This document was sent once again to the European mission, to the
16 Ministry of Health, namely to Professor Hebrang but in view of the fact
17 that I was unable it go and send the fax personally, I simply sent it to
18 the post office, and it was sent to the Osijek post office.
19 Q. Clearly I have been asking you questions through this period about
20 faxes. We also know that you had a telephone and we know from evidence
21 you gave before the break about a telephone call to General Raseta. If we
22 deal with November, and I know it's difficult to particularise, but how
23 often would you be using your telephone to contact individuals in relation
24 to the JNA or, if I may use that phrase, the Serbian position?
25 A. In the second half of November, I called every day asking to be
1 connected to the Main Staff, the office of admiral Brovet and to General
3 Q. And when you did that, did you have any success in communicating
4 with them or any of their staff?
5 A. I managed once to speak to somebody. I don't know to whom. Who
6 was a member of the General staff in Belgrade.
7 Q. And what did you say to them?
8 A. I told them who I was. I said that I was calling from the
9 hospital in Vukovar, that I was director of the hospital, and that I was
10 asking them to stop shelling Vukovar and the hospital and to stop the air
12 Q. And did it have any success at all?
13 A. No.
14 Q. In this letter, you deal with the fact, as you calculate it to be
15 the 81st day of the blockade of Vukovar. Now, that is the first line and
16 you refer to the 81st day of intensive artillery and aircraft fire
17 referring to civilian buildings. Where do you -- I use the phrase
18 Rubicon, where do you say the Rubicon was, or where was the line of when
19 Vukovar was being blockaded because you use 81 days. From what date are
20 you working?
21 A. We started counting that from the 25th of August, when almost all
22 roads were cut off, all roads leading to Vukovar. At the time, there was
23 just one road left, a rather risky one, through Luzac and through the corn
24 fields. That was operational in September. And occasionally, the wounded
25 were evacuated via that road. However, as for the regular supplies, with
1 food, with medication and so on, that was disrupted from the 25th of
2 August on, and we considered ourselves to be under siege. So therefore 81
3 days was counting from that day.
4 Q. Thank you. I'm not going to go into paragraphs 1 and 2, where
5 there is numbers mentioned. But I'd like you to deal, please, with an
6 incident that you refer to here on the 11th of November in respect of five
7 heavily wounded persons, of which three have cranial cerebral injuries and
8 you actually make the distance of five kilometres to the hospital. Where
9 had those people been brought from? What district?
10 A. These people were brought in from Borovo Naselje. At the time,
11 the road was cut off. The tanks entered through Luzac. The street that
12 we called Priljevo which connects Vukovar to the -- to Borovo Naselje, and
13 these people were brought by other people from Borovo Naselje to the
14 hospital. They carried them physically in their arms.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. MOORE: My I make application that the tab 30 documents be
17 made an exhibit?
18 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 30.
20 MR. MOORE: Tab 31. Tab 31, pages 67 and 68. These are telephone
21 messages. They are from the 65 ter number of Exhibit number of 223.
22 ZA002440 and 2441.
23 Q. Doctor, would you look at page 68, please?
24 MR. MOORE: May it please the Court, I think there may be an error
25 on page 68 index because I see it says English and it's clearly not
1 English. So page 67 seems to be the translation. I will have that
2 clarified. Page 68 seems to be the B/C/S.
3 Q. So, doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to turn to page 68?
4 If we look at that particular document, there appears to be your name. Is
5 that right? Bottom right-hand corner.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And it's directed to whom?
8 A. To the European mission in Zagreb.
9 Q. The English translation refers to November the 13th at 1600 hours
10 but even from my untrained eye it's clear that the B/C/S is not that time.
11 It's 1620. But perhaps if I can deal with the content for a moment. May
12 we just look, please, at one or two parts of this document? If one moves
13 down to the fifth paragraph, which starts, "We are inviting all the
14 responsible members," it's under number 2. Do you see that, doctor?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. We are inviting all the responsible members of the European
17 mission and UNICEF, as well as other organisations who wish to help to
18 visit Vukovar afterwards and witness by themselves the massacre upon the
19 population of Vukovar, regardless of nationality. Why do you use the
20 phrase, "massacre of the population of Vukovar, regardless of
21 nationality"? What was it that you saw or are aware of that caused you to
22 use that phrase?
23 A. During those three months, I saw quite a lot. A lot of people who
24 were killed by shells, bombs, people without extremities, without heads.
25 People of all ethnic backgrounds. The victims came from all groups who
1 remained in Vukovar. People were killed, houses were destroyed, and this
2 is something that prompted me to write this sentence.
3 Q. Thank you. I don't wish to ask any more questions on that
5 MR. MOORE: I'd ask it to be made an exhibit, please.
6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours?
8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Vasic?
9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I'm afraid we have once again two
10 problems. This time they both pertain to the English translation. In the
11 B/C/S version of the document, therefore the official version, below the
12 signature of the witness, it says, "Vukovar November 1991." This portion
13 is missing from the English translation. And in the text itself, it
14 says, "Out of 14 newly admitted wounded patients on the 13th of November,"
15 that was translated into English as the 12th of November. In transcript
16 on page 37, line 20, it should say "Vukovar, the 13th of November 1991."
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, and also in the heading, the time it
18 appears should be 1620 rather than 1600.
19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. But I believed
20 that that issue was already raised by my learned friend.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Those matters seem self-evident,
22 Mr. Moore.
23 MR. MOORE: Yes. I'm in the Court's hands.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Those matters having been noted in the transcript,
25 the document will be received as Exhibit 31.
1 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
2 Tab 32. 14th of November, four days before the surrender of
3 Vukovar. Page 69, page 70, document going to the European mission, in
4 B/C/S it is 65 per number 996, ERN number 0117/2550 and 2551.
5 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to turn to page 69? We
6 will deal with the English translation. Again bottom right-hand corner,
7 appears to be Dr. Vesna Bosanac, and in Vukovar, 14th of November 1991.
8 Do you see that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. It's to the European mission. Can we just clarify certain parts
11 again of this document? "We are informing you that today on the 14th of
12 November, 1991, the situation in the Vukovar Hospital is getting more and
13 more difficult, considering there are 12 new wounded that have been
14 admitted to the hospital yesterday and there is no water in the hospital,
15 food supplies are getting scarce, and we are running out of medicaments,"
16 and then you refer to injuries and other matters of which I'm not going to
17 deal with. Would you go, then, please to the bottom or the final
18 paragraph, "protect, gentlemen, at least the children of Vukovar. Among
19 the wounded, among which there are 70 per cent of civilians, the gaseous
20 gangrene is in process and we cannot say for how long we will be able to
21 survive. We are once again asking you for peace and for the withdrawal."
22 Now, this has gone again to presumably the Croatian liaison
23 officer at the European mission; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you receive any reply, not only to this document, but to the
1 other documents that you had repeatedly been sending to the missions,
2 asking for assistance for the hospital? Firstly can we deal with this in
3 general terms and then specific terms? So what replies were you getting,
4 if any?
5 A. No. I received no reply whatsoever. I only had telephone
6 conversations with Minister Hebrang who promised help to me informed me
7 about the fact that there were negotiations going on, about cease-fire,
8 and evacuation. However, I received no written reply.
9 Q. Did you ever receive any telephone contact from the European
10 missions in respect of these faxes that you sent?
11 A. No. The only thing I received was on the 18th. That was the day
12 when they were supposed to come to Vukovar but failed to appear. That was
13 when I received a note via telephone from the European monitors.
14 Q. All right. We'll come to that in a moment but if I may at this
15 time, then, not ask any further questions in respect of tab 32, make
16 application for the tab 32 document to be Exhibit 32?
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 32.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
19 MR. MOORE: Can we move on to tab 33? Tab 33 is down as a message
20 from yourself on the 15th of November, ter number 996, and the ERN number
21 is 0117/2552.
22 Q. Would you be kind enough, please, doctor, to turn to number 71,
23 page 71? The English version is on page 72. Is it right, we see your
24 name at the bottom right-hand corner? Do you remember sending this
25 document or note?
1 A. Yes, message.
2 Q. It was a message. Well, the way it starts is dear sirs and it
3 concludes with, "Sincerely." Can you remember whether it was a document
4 that was faxed? If we look at page -- well, you have to do. Look at page
5 71. Who typed this? Or where was it typed, is a better question.
6 A. I can't say right now. I know that I dictated this document to
7 someone but I'm not sure if the original was sent or a copy. This is not
8 something that I can say with any certainty.
9 Q. If we deal with the -- with the content, perhaps we can ascertain
10 whether in actual fact you identify the document. Today the 15th of
11 November, we address you from the Vukovar Hospital. Would you be kind
12 enough, please, to read it to yourself and see if you can identify the
13 contents as being the contents of which you created and then subsequently
15 A. I'm certain that I was the one who dictated this, and I'm able to
16 identify this as the letter that I thought up and then dictated to
17 someone. The only thing I am unable to say is, in view of the fact that
18 the document is not signed, whether this was the very document that was
19 produced when I dictated it or whether this is in fact a copy of the
20 original document.
21 Q. Thank you very much. Might I draw your attention, please, to the
22 third paragraph standing -- starting "we demand that you fully exercise
23 your influence to stop the war, get the Yugoslav army to withdraw from
24 Vukovar." I'd like you to deal with the next part. "Lift the roadblocks
25 to enable transport of food and medicine and allow for repairs of the
1 water pipeline in order to prevents infections and an epidemic."
2 Now, the roadblocks and the transportation of food and medicine,
3 to what extent were you able to obtain medicine and/or food in that last
4 period of November, before the surrender?
5 A. The situation with water was extremely difficult. We used the
6 surrounding wells. We collected rain water. The same applied to food.
7 We were given some food from the Red Cross and Caritas storage, mostly
8 canned food, flour. We had nothing to use in order to make bread, so the
9 bread we ate was the hard kind of bread, not the soft one. Medicine was
10 running short too, but we did receive assistance on several occasions.
11 There were planes from Osijek flying over Vukovar at night and they would
12 drop military parcels with blood and the medical necessities. There were
13 two such parcels that were brought to the hospital on the last days.
14 Q. You've mentioned the Red Cross. Where was the Red Cross coming
16 A. The Red Cross was operating inside the town.
17 Q. Did you have any significant help coming into Vukovar across the
18 roadblocks? Are you able to assist with that?
19 A. No, no.
20 Q. It's the way I phrased the question, it was badly put. Is it a
21 case that you did not receive assistance or you can't remember?
22 A. We received none. I know that. On the very last days, there were
23 these airplanes that were dropping these parcels with medicine and blood
24 reserves, but no food or any other necessities got through the blockade,
25 since the beginning of October.
1 MR. MOORE: Might I apply for the tab 33 document to be made an
3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic?
4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We still
5 don't know who this document was sent to. The only thing that the heading
6 indicates is "from Dr. Vesna Bosanac," but there is another concern I wish
7 to raise about this document, the way it was typed up. If you have a
8 look, all the documents that we have already tendered, documents of the
9 medical centre or leaving the medical centre, were typewritten. It would
10 seem that the case of this document is not consistent with the other
11 cases. It was computer typed, apparently. At the point in time under
12 consideration, I don't think the witness was able to have a document typed
13 up on a computer. This raises some serious doubts concerning the
14 authenticity of this document, particularly whether the document was
15 actually produced by the witness at all.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Do you wish to pursue that any further, Mr. Moore?
17 MR. MOORE: Yes we would have two submissions. The first would
18 be --
19 JUDGE PARKER: Submissions or questions to the witness.
20 MR. MOORE: I was going to deal with submissions in relation to
21 the objections, and then I will --
22 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.
23 MR. MOORE: The submissions are very short. They would be quite
24 simply this: Firstly that the doctor has said repeatedly that she has
25 always sent faxes to the liaison officer at the European Commission. My
1 understanding was that she distinguished, if that was not the case. The
2 second is simply this: That in our submission, page 31, the type script
3 surely is a question for cross-examination, and therefore, if there is any
4 concern, it can be marked for identification and can be cross-examined on.
5 Those are the only submissions I would make on those concerns.
6 JUDGE PARKER: So do I understand that you propose that it be
7 marked for identification at the moment?
8 MR. MOORE: Yes, I'm perfectly happy for it to be marked for
9 identification but on the basis --
10 JUDGE PARKER: Page 71 I think the transcript notes was 31 which
11 may have been what you said.
12 MR. MOORE: Can I --
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.
14 Could I indicate, Mr. Vasic that the Chamber's understanding of
15 the evidence of the witness is that each of these documents was sent by
16 fax to the Croatian liaison officer at the European mission in Zagreb,
17 unless she has specifically indicated otherwise, and on that basis, we
18 would receive the document. In view of your concern about authenticity,
19 Mr. Moore has indicated he will only move it to be marked for
20 identification until after you've had a chance to cross-examine. So we
21 will mark it for identification on that basis as 33.
22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 MR. MOORE: May I move, please, to tab 34? Tab 34 is a document,
24 65 ter number 996, ERN number 0117/2553.
25 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to turn up page 74? And
1 73 appears to be the original. Now, can I just deal with this document?
2 It's right, I think, that it has the heading of the medical centre of
3 Vukovar; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And the message was accepted on the 18th of November, apparently
6 at 8.50 in the morning.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I'd like to just deal, please, with the content of this message.
9 It's originally sent to the apparently the European mission and is headed
10 urgent protest. Would you be kind enough, please, to read the content of
11 that document and confirm whether in actual fact it corresponds with a
12 message you may have sent to the European mission itself on the 18th of
14 A. Yes. It's consistent.
15 Q. And who did you send it to, or let me rephrase that? Who did you
16 telephone about this document?
17 A. Again, the liaison officer with the Croatian office of the
18 European mission in Zagreb.
19 Q. So this is the 18th of November, ten to 9.00 in the morning. It
20 reads as follows: "The tanks are still continuously firing on the
21 hospital. There are 600 patients and as many civilians at the hospital in
22 this moment awaiting the evacuation. We are asking for urgent evacuation.
23 The patients and the civilians are supposed to the tank fire, hunger and
24 thirst. We are appealing to the EC mission to urgently come to the
25 hospital." And then you indicate they can safely pass through Luzac.
1 Now it may be a case of translation, and if it is, please inform
2 me. But can I deal, please, with the first paragraph? Because it says
3 there are 600 patients, as many civilians, at the hospital at this moment
4 awaiting the evacuation. Not "an" evacuation, but "the." Now, were you
5 at this time expecting to be evacuated? Or was it a case of hoping to be
7 A. We were expecting, according to the information I had, on the 18th
8 of November, at 8.00 in the morning, two teams were supposed to arrive.
9 Two Red Cross teams were supposed to arrive at the Vukovar Hospital, one
10 from Ilok, across Mitnica to Vukovar and the hospital, and the other
11 across the Danube by ship from Backa. The European monitors were supposed
12 to arrive too so that the hospital evacuation could commence, which had
13 been agreed by the European monitors in Zagreb. Instead, the tanks opened
14 fire again. It was at this point in time that I picked up the phone again
15 and lodged this protest.
16 Q. Can I just then deal with your evidence for a moment? You said
17 that you were expecting two Red Cross teams, one from Ilok, one across the
18 Danube. Who informed you that there would be these evacuations? When did
19 you find out?
20 A. Minister Hebrang, on the previous day.
21 Q. And where was Minister Hebrang at that time, as far as you were
23 A. In Zagreb.
24 Q. And again, what was your information that Minister Hebrang was
25 doing in Zagreb?
1 A. He was involved in negotiations concerning the evacuation,
2 alongside with the International Red Cross, and General Raseta, who was
3 representing the JNA. They wanted me to give them the total number of
4 wounded, those seriously wounded, who required evacuation by an ambulance.
5 The number of personnel and civilians in the hospital, information which I
6 had provided on the previous days. On Sunday, the 17th, I was told that
7 next Monday, on the 18th, representatives of the International Red Cross
8 and European monitors would be arriving in the Vukovar Hospital.
9 Q. Do you know what terms were going to apply for this evacuation?
10 What were the rules for the evacuation of the people from Vukovar and the
11 Vukovar Hospital?
12 A. What do you mean by rules?
13 Q. What did you understand would be the guidelines for the
14 evacuation? Who was going to do what? Who was going to be present where?
15 A. We were supposed to prepare the wounded, to determine how many
16 ambulances would be needed and how many seats on the buses, so in addition
17 to that, they discussed evacuation routes, of which several had been
18 envisaged. They asked me which I believed was the easiest and the
19 simplest route to use. I told them it was the same route that had been
20 used by the convoy, when the Medecins Sans Frontieres first came in. This
21 was the route from the hospital across Luzac through Bogdanovci, Marinci,
22 and Nustar. I was told by Minister Hebrang that this route would indeed
23 be used for the evacuation, that those most seriously wounded, as well as
24 the hospital personnel would be evacuated along that route.
25 Q. On an earlier occasion you had asked for an evacuation to be under
1 the control of three parties. The first was JNA, the second was Croatian
2 forces and the third was monitors. Who was going to be controlling this
3 particular evacuation? What was your understanding in relation to that?
4 A. My understanding was the same in relation to this evacuation, that
5 it would be monitored and that it would be conducted by the International
6 Red Cross, with the monitoring of the European monitors obviously.
7 Q. How important was it to you to have the European or any monitors
8 participating in the evacuation at this time?
9 A. It was very important, exceptionally important, to me and to all
10 of us in Vukovar.
11 Q. Why was that?
12 A. I can say why it was exceptionally important to me. The reason
13 was that I had no reason to expect that the evacuation would be swift and
14 effective unless the European monitors and the International Red Cross
15 were present, considering everything that we had been through up to that
16 day, the 18th, our fear was great. Our concern was great about the
17 progress of the evacuation that was in the offing.
18 Q. Was your fear only towards speed or was it affected by other
20 A. Our fear was about the Yugoslav soldiers who had spent most of
21 their time up to that point demolishing the town and killing people. We
22 were afraid of what would happen once they reached the hospital in the
23 absence of the European monitors and the International Red Cross.
24 Q. Did you ever inform any person of your fears for the safety of
25 many of the patients, in respect of the behaviour of the JNA soldiers?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And who did you tell of this?
3 A. I informed Minister Hebrang. We spoke and my colleagues also
4 spoke to him, for hours during those last few days. We spoke about how we
5 would organise the evacuation.
6 Q. You've told us about the -- expecting two teams of Red Cross to
7 come on the 18th. Did they arrive?
8 A. No.
9 Q. When they didn't arrive, did you do anything?
10 A. Well, I phoned minister Hebrang again, and I also phoned the
11 Office for Cooperation with the European mission in Zagreb.
12 Minister Hebrang replied by saying that he would look into the matter,
13 after which he called again to say that the International Red Cross were
14 on their way, but that they were held up overseeing the surrender of the
15 Croatian soldiers and civilians in the sector south of Vukovar and that
16 they would reach the hospital soon after. This was on the 18th. I
17 believed that he was talking about the surrender or evacuation of
18 Sajmiste. It was only later that I found out that he was in fact talking
19 about the surrender and evacuation of Mitnica. It was at about 12.00 that
20 the European monitors phoned me. This was the one and only time they did.
21 They spoke to me in English and told me that they were sorry, that they
22 were not able to come, that they were detained in the village of
23 Negoslavci and that they would be there as soon as they could.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. MOORE: Can I please apply for the tab 34 document to be made
1 an exhibit.
2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 34.
4 MR. MOORE: I would like to move on to tab 36, please.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Not 35?
6 MR. MOORE: 35 in actual fact is a misprint. If my memory serves
7 my correctly 35 relates to the 19th, not the 18th. Trying to do it
8 chronologically. Sorry, perhaps I should have said that. So, 36, please.
9 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to turn to page 76?
10 This comes from 65 ter at number 996 and it's 0117/2554.
11 This is a telephone message received at this page is both B/C/S
12 and the English translation. We have got the name Vesna, Dr. Bosanac,
13 there. It's received allegedly at 10.10 in the morning to the European
14 mission. It's a short message. It says "artillery is attacking again.
15 We were promised that the European mission would come this morning. We
16 are being manipulated again."
17 Now, this is apparently the 18th. Are you able to confirm whether
18 you contacted presumably the Croatian liaison officer at the European
19 mission on that day?
20 A. [No interpretation]
21 Q. And the content itself, does it correspond with the conversation
22 that you had?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you very much.
25 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I wasn't seeking to ask any questions
1 about that, merely to make it an exhibit. It's part of a continued course
2 of conduct through the 18th. So I'd make application for tab 36, please.
3 I wonder could that be held back because tab 35 actually is the 19th, it's
4 the very last one.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Why don't you not move at the moment for its
6 admission? We will deal with tab 35 if that is next. It's not next, is
8 MR. MOORE: Tab 35 actually is the 19th, not the 18th.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes but are you moving now to tab 35?
10 MR. MOORE: No, I'll go to 36, 37, then I will go to tab 39.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Look, we will make no decision about tab 36 at the
12 moment. We will move again at an appropriate time, and we will now
13 adjourn, given the time, resuming at ten minutes to 1.00.
14 MR. MOORE: Certainly.
15 --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore?
18 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. May I move on, please, to tab
19 37? Tab 37 relates to phone messages on the 18th of November at 3.40 in
20 the afternoon. They come from the 65 ter list 996 exhibit and 0117/2556.
21 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to turn to page 77? And
22 we will deal with page 78. This again is apparently a message received,
23 telephone message received, apparently received by A. Kosovic. Would you,
24 would you be kind enough, please, to read the content and confirm whether,
25 in actual fact, it is of a nature and containing references that you were
1 aware of, and indeed had communicated to A. Kosovic, if it was A. Kosovic
2 who received it?
3 A. I can confirm that I transmitted this telephone message on the
4 18th of November at 15.40.
5 Q. And you transmitted it to whom, please?
6 A. As I have already told you, I kept calling the liaison office,
7 with the European mission in Zagreb. I don't know who was on duty and who
8 received the message.
9 Q. Would you be kind enough, then, please, to look at the second
10 one-sentence paragraph? And it seems to say, European
11 Community/monitoring group for Vukovar made contact at 12.15 hours from
12 Negoslavci. Their representative will come to the hospital if they allow
13 him. Now, did you communicate that to the European monitoring mission?
14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Actually, I transmitted the message
16 I received on the telephone from the monitors, the message to the effect
17 that they were unable to come and that they would come to the hospital as
18 soon as they were allowed to. This is what they told me. And then I in
19 turn conveyed further this message about them not coming.
20 MR. MOORE:
21 Q. But the phrase was, if they will allow him. How were they not
22 able to come to Vukovar? The word "allow" is very specific.
23 A. That was the first time I realised that, namely that they were
24 unable to come on their own to Vukovar, if they wanted to. Instead,
25 somebody else, in this case the Yugoslav People's Army, who had all roads
1 leading to Vukovar under their control had to, prior to that, issue
2 permission for them to travel to Vukovar.
3 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions on that
5 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, if it meets with the agreement or consent
6 of the court, the documents that one can find on the index running from
7 tab 35 to 39 clearly have been thrown out of sync by tab 35 being in the
8 wrong place. I've mentioned to the court officer. I haven't had a chance
9 to mention to my learned friends, but if in actual fact these documents
10 are dealt with sequentially, as I intend to do, and there is no objection
11 taken to them, then at the end of what I will call the tabbed documents,
12 they can retain their original tab numbers which will then have that
13 exhibit number and not create any problems at all. I'm entirely in the
14 Court --
15 JUDGE PARKER: You will continue on until you've reached the
16 end --
17 MR. MOORE: Yes. Thank you very much indeed. But I would be
18 making application for them to be made an exhibit.
19 May I move, then, to tab 37, please? Tab 37 is a telephone
20 message, 18th of November, sorry, my apologies, tab 39 would be the next
21 one. And it is -- corresponds at the same time. So that's page 80 and
22 page 81. They are from 65 ter 223, and it would be ZA004235 and 4236.
23 Q. Again, doctor, looking at page 81, it seems to be the same nature
24 of document; is that right? Well it is the same document itself,
25 actually, but by a different route.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you very much.
3 MR. MOORE: I would ask that to be made an exhibit in due course.
4 Then moving to tab 38, which is proceeding along on that day, in
5 chronological form, it's a phone message then, approximately three hours
6 later, it's page 79. It is ter 996, ERN number 0117/2557.
7 Q. This, again, allegedly is a telephone call made by you, the timing
8 clearly is in error on the translation. It is at 18.55, which would be
9 6.55 in the evening, but the document says 4.55, but if I just move on,
10 apart from that, in relation to the message, would you be kind enough,
11 please, to just look at who it's addressed to? It seems to be the
12 European mission. Is that exactly the same route that you have taken on
13 previous occasions?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that in actual fact, we have got Dr. Vesna Bosanac, bottom
16 right-hand corner? Again would you be kind enough to read the content of
17 this document and see if it corresponds with a telephone conversation that
18 you had in the late afternoon of the 18th of November?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Would you be kind enough to look at the very bottom paragraph
21 starting, "We implore for an urgent help and arrival of the
22 representatives of the EC mission and International Red Cross respectively
23 without Yugoslav army escort as there are no Croatian army within the
24 hospital surrounding as we were required by the EC mission?"
25 Now, what did you mean by that, please?
1 A. The evacuation was discussed prior to that, as I have told you. I
2 talked to Minister Hebrang and he asked me whether there were any Croatian
3 soldiers in the vicinity of the hospital. I told him that there were
4 none. I said that there were just the wounded there, and those who were
5 assigned by the Croatian army to protect the hospital. I thought that
6 I -- if I phrased it in those terms I would speed up the arrival of
7 European monitors and the International Red Cross.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. MOORE: I will make application for that to be made an
10 exhibit. And then finally at tab 35. And this is the 19th of November,
11 tab 35, an apparent phone call made at 9.00 in the morning, 1 minute past
12 9.00. It's ter number 996 0117/2555.
13 Q. Have you got that, Doctor? Page 75, top right-hand corner.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you very much. Again, from the medical centre Vukovar,
16 apparently a telephone message, received the European mission, I'm not
17 going to ask that question any more. And Dr. Bosanac is the name. I'll
18 read it out. "We are calling today on the 19th of November 1991 at 1
19 minute past 9.00 that nobody called by phone yet or came in person in
20 connection with the agreed evacuation."
21 When we see "agreed evacuation," what did you mean on the 19th of
23 A. I was informed prior to that, by Minister Hebrang, as I've already
24 told you, that an agreement had been signed, an agreement on evacuation of
25 the wounded from the hospital. This is therefore what I had in mind, that
1 agreement and the evacuation that had been agreed upon.
2 Q. Thank you very much indeed.
3 Can you just inform us what exactly the situation was on the 19th
4 in the hospital? We have now finished with all these documents and I will
5 seek to make them exhibits but before I do that, can you just answer this
6 one question? What was it like on the 19th, when you sent that telephone
8 A. The situation was very grave. The hospital was full of the
9 wounded. The ill people, civilians who arrived from nearby shelters and
10 basements. The situation was grave indeed. We had no more food, water,
11 medicine, as I've mentioned several times already. We were hoping for an
12 evacuation. However, nothing was going on at the time when I sent this
13 telephone message to the European Union.
14 Q. Thank you very much indeed.
15 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, may I then formally apply for tabs 35 to
16 39 inclusive? And I'll separate them out for documentation. So tab 35 we
17 make application for it to be an exhibit.
18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 35.
20 MR. MOORE: Tab 36, the document in relation to that.
21 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received as Exhibit number 36.
22 MR. MOORE: 37.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 37.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
25 MR. MOORE: Tab 38.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Now, as I see them, Mr. Moore, tab 37 and tab 39
2 are the identical document but somehow two slightly different translations
3 appear, one with each. I would think don't need both documents.
4 MR. MOORE: Certainly.
5 JUDGE PARKER: So we will have 38 and not 39. Is that it? You've
6 already got 37.
7 MR. MOORE: I was just thinking, yes, I agree. Thank you very
8 much for that.
9 And then tab 35 -- sorry, 39, my apologies.
10 JUDGE PARKER: 39 we won't exhibit because the original document
11 is identical with that in 37. We do receive Exhibit 38.
12 MR. MOORE: Yes. I see that. Thank you very much.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit number 38.
14 MR. MOORE: Thank you for that. That concludes the material in
15 what I call tabulated form for faxes. Can I just then move on to one or
16 two different areas? Your Honour with regard to the hard copy, I want to
17 now deal with the evacuation agreement. That is at index 1, but it is
18 certainly with the E-Court system and it may well be deemed appropriate
19 for it to go into E-Court at this stage. So what I was going to do was to
20 deal with the rest of the documents that I have and there aren't very
21 many, to deal with it by way of E-Court. I don't know if that helps.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
23 MR. MOORE: So if I can deal with it in this way:
24 Q. Doctor, you have told us about the belief that there was an
25 evacuation agreement in place. Would you be kind enough to look at a
1 document which has been given the title, "The Zagreb evacuation document",
2 the number is 00072600 for the assistance of E-Court.
3 Now, have you ever seen this document before?
4 A. Yes, I have.
5 Q. When did you actually see the document for the first time?
6 A. Once I left the prison in December of 1991.
7 Q. I'm going to deal with things in a slightly unusual way by jumping
8 ahead in time. I think it's right that you yourself, after the hospital
9 was evacuated, on the 21st of -- 20th, 21st of November, you were taken
10 to, as you describe it, prison; is that correct?
11 A. Prior to the evacuation of the hospital.
12 Q. When were you actually taken away?
13 A. In the morning, on the 20th.
14 Q. And where were you taken to eventually?
15 A. I was first taken to the barracks of the Yugoslav army in Vukovar.
16 Q. I think it's right you eventually ended up at Sremska Mitrovica;
17 is that right, in a camp?
18 A. Yes. During the night, between the 20th and the 21st, I was
19 transported from the barracks in Vukovar to the prison in Sremska
21 Q. Now, when you were at -- I'll call it prison because that's the
22 word you used, when you were held in that camp or prison, how long did you
23 remain there?
24 A. Three weeks.
25 Q. And during that time, did you compile a document giving an account
1 of what had happened to you?
2 A. I wrote a statement.
3 Q. And the statement itself, is it in your handwriting?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And when you wrote it, were matters fresh in your memory?
6 A. I think they were.
7 Q. Fresher than today?
8 A. Most likely.
9 Q. Now, and I'm about to ask you to give evidence about what had
10 happened at the hospital principally from the 18th to the 21st of
11 November. Would it assist you with the Court's leave to refresh your
12 memory from that document? So if there are parts that you can't remember
13 by way of question, you can refer to the document to assist your
15 A. Yes. But actually I did not quite understand your question, the
16 last one.
17 Q. All right. You wrote a document when you were at Sremska
18 Mitrovica. It's in your handwriting, is that right? It was written some
19 weeks, days and weeks, after you had come from the Vukovar Hospital. Do
20 you follow so far?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And in the document, you refer to places, occurrences, names,
23 various details of what happened; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions today, 15 years after the
1 event, I'm asking whether, if in actual fact we use the phrase refresh
2 your memory to look at the document if you need to to help you remember
3 what occurred.
4 A. I can take a look at the document, but I would rather not, because
5 everything that happened to me during those last few days, both at the
6 hospital and in prison, is something that I do not like to go back in my
7 mind happily, but if you wish me to, I can go over that document and
8 refresh my memory, if that is necessary.
9 Q. All right. Well, I won't deal with the document at the moment.
10 We will stick to the Zagreb agreement. Would you be kind enough, please,
11 to look at paragraph 3 of the agreement? Because it deals with a route.
12 Have you got that? Could you keep your voice up a little, please?
13 A. Yes. I'll try.
14 Q. Thank you for that. It reads as follows: The convoy will take a
15 route from Vukovar to Priljevo. Do you see that? And then gives a route
17 A. Yes, yes. I do. I do.
18 Q. Now, in relation to the route that was actually taken, did you
19 speak to any person about whether that was the route to take or not?
20 A. You mean on the day of the evacuation or earlier? I did speak
21 about that route to Minister Hebrang on an earlier occasion, and I also
22 spoke to General Raseta. On the 19th of November I spoke to
23 Colonel Mrksic as well.
24 Q. Now, can we deal with your conversation with Colonel Mrksic
25 please? You say that was when?
1 A. On the 19th.
2 Q. And was this route discussed or a route discussed?
3 A. We discussed the evacuation. In our conversation, I described to
4 him the situation at the hospital, and asked for the evacuation to
5 commence as quickly as possible. He told me there were several ways to
6 evacuate, through Sid, through Lipovac, and Professor Hebrang had already
7 told me that a route had been agreed on, the following route,
9 Q. And did you then take the route or did you take a different route
10 for the evacuation?
11 A. I didn't go. The hospital didn't go. The wounded and everyone
12 else were evacuated along a different route, or at least that's what I
13 heard. So that they passed through Sremska Mitrovica rather than the
14 agreed route.
15 Q. And can you remember the explanation given to you by Colonel
16 Mrksic of why it was that route couldn't be taken, it had to be changed?
17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe this is a
18 leading question.
19 JUDGE PARKER: An element of it does appear to be, Mr. Moore. For
20 the most part it isn't. It's the suggestion that the route had to be
21 changed. Thank you, Mr. Vasic.
22 MR. MOORE: Well, might I respectfully submit that there is
23 reference to a conversation with Colonel Mrksic and if one looks at
25 JUDGE PARKER: A different route. It's the word "had" which you
1 put in your last question. Instead of "was".
2 MR. MOORE: I'll ask the question in a different way, if that
4 JUDGE PARKER: That may well help.
5 MR. MOORE: I'll try.
6 Q. The route that has been chosen, as far as you were aware, was that
7 route the route that they actually took?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And was any explanation given to you by anyone why you went on a
10 different route?
11 A. When I talked to Colonel Mrksic we discussed a number of possible
12 evacuation routes. He listed some of those that he deemed possible. I
13 told him that a route had already been agreed on and signed in Zagreb.
14 The following route: Hospital-Luzac-Bogdanovci-Marinci-Vinkovci. He said
15 this might prove a problem, because mines would have to be cleared from
16 Zidine - Zidine is a place - and this was the reason that no evacuation
17 could start on the 19th, but, rather, one would have to be organised on
18 the following day, the 20th.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Could I ask you, please, to go to number 5?
20 It reads "the evacuation will include all those wounded or sick undergoing
21 medical treatment in Vukovar Hospital who are judged by the authorities of
22 the hospital to be fit to make the journey."
23 Now, I underline the word "all". Did that correspond or not with
24 your understanding of what was to be agreed? Or to be followed is perhaps
25 a better way of putting it.
1 A. Our understanding was that everyone would be evacuated from the
2 hospital. We had a list containing the names of all the wounded who had
3 specified their wish as to which part of Croatia, Yugoslavia, they wanted
4 to be evacuated to, seeing as some of them had families in Zagreb or in
5 Croatia's free territory. Some had requested to go to Belgrade or Novi
6 Sad. At any rate, our expectation certainly was that all would be
7 evacuated. As the hospital demolished as it was, and left with no
8 infrastructure in place, could not continue to operate.
9 Q. Thank you. Could I ask you then, please, to look at paragraph 7,
10 that really deals with the control of the evacuation. "The Republic of
11 Croatia and YPA agree that the EC monitor mission should monitor the whole
12 of the operation, having full access to all elements of the evacuation.
13 The two parties will also facilitate the involvement of the ICRC, Medecins
14 Sans Frontieres, and the Maltese Cross as appropriate to allow them to
15 play such roles as may be decided in supporting and monitoring the
17 "You have told us that you had had telephone calls on the 18th of
18 November in relation to the proposed evacuation that you were expecting
19 Red Cross convoys. What was your understanding in relation to the control
20 that was to be exercised by the monitors themselves, when it came to the
21 evacuation of all the people --
22 A. I expected that the evacuation would be conducted in much the same
23 way as one month before, the evacuation that had been organised by the
24 Medecins Sans Frontieres. That the International Red Cross would be
25 conducting the evacuation with the assistance of the European monitors,
1 that was my idea of what -- how the evacuation would unfold.
2 Q. Can I deal with this conversation that you had with
3 Colonel Mrksic, the conversation that related to the change of route for
4 whatever reason? In that conversation with Colonel Mrksic, was there any
5 discussion between you and him about who was to control the evacuation,
6 the involvement of the monitors, and who would be evacuated?
7 A. I told him that an agreement had been signed in Zagreb. On behalf
8 of the Croatian government and on behalf of General Raseta who was
9 representing the JNA, as well as on behalf of the ECMM. This agreement
10 specified the exact modality and route to be taken by the evacuation. I
11 told him that on the afternoon of the 19th, in Negoslavci when we talked.
12 If I may be allowed to add something about the translation of this
13 agreement? It says signed for the Republic of Croatia, a signature, and
14 then an illegible signature, 18 over 11 signed for the JNA and then an
15 illegible signature. This illegible handwritten signature belongs to
16 Mr. Georges-Marie Chenu who at the time was head of the monitoring mission
17 in Zagreb.
18 Q. But with regard to the conversation with Colonel Mrksic, you've
19 answered some of the question, but was there any discussion about the
20 responsibility of the monitors in the evacuation?
21 A. I said that the agreement signed in Zagreb envisaged in great
22 detail the options or, rather, the guidelines, as well as the route for
23 this evacuation.
24 Q. And what about the role of the monitors, i.e., the European
25 mission, Medecins Sans Frontieres, Maltese Cross. Who was going to
1 control the evacuation? Was that discussed?
2 A. Again, I told him about the agreement. I had not myself seen the
3 agreement before the evacuation but I had been informed of its details.
4 That precisely was the reason why I had requested to go to Negoslavci. I
5 herd from the soldier who was the first to come to the hospital that the
6 European monitors and the International Red Cross were there in Negoslavci
7 and that's why I asked to go to Negoslavci myself, to meet the European
8 monitors. I expected that they would be the first to arrive at the
9 hospital and not the representatives of the JNA. This is something that I
10 shared with Colonel Mrksic. I told him this was the reason I had gone to
12 Q. And in relation to paragraph 5 of the agreement, which you had not
13 seen when you went to see Colonel Mrksic, that of course refers to all the
14 wounded and you've given evidence about that. Did you have any
15 conversation with Colonel Mrksic about actually who was to be evacuated,
16 whether it was going to be some or whether it was going to be all? Can
17 you help us, please, the details of the discussion with Colonel Mrksic on
18 this topic?
19 A. I told him that all were to be evacuated, all meaning all. The
20 hospital was facing a difficult situation. There was no water.
21 Everything was filthy. Gangrene was rife. There were no medications.
22 And all were to be evacuated.
23 Q. Did Colonel Mrksic express any concerns or reservations about all
24 being taken from the hospital?
25 A. No. My understanding at the time was as follows. He said that
1 the situation was now better because the shooting had ceased. He said we
2 would now be better able to conduct an evacuation. Nevertheless, he
3 himself did not know exactly what it was that General Raseta had signed in
4 Zagreb. Raseta was in Zagreb and not on the ground. That would be a
5 rough rendition of his words at the time.
6 Q. Did Colonel Mrksic at any time indicate that he would contact
7 General Raseta to clarify exactly what the terms would be for the
9 A. No. This isn't something that he told me, or at least I don't
11 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I was going to go on to a specific topic
12 that takes a little time. When I say a little time, it will take half an
13 hour, I would have thought. I wonder if it would be possible to rise five
14 minutes early and deal with that topic in one fell swoop? I can start it,
15 if you wish.
16 JUDGE PARKER: I think it would be more practical to break now,
17 and come to this topic fresh tomorrow morning.
18 Is there any other matter before we rise?
19 MR. MOORE: Not that I'm aware of. Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE PARKER: If that's the case, then, we will adjourn now to
21 resume at 9.00 a.m. tomorrow morning.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.39 p.m., to
23 be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th day of October,
24 2005, at 9.00 a.m.