1 Monday, 31 October 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Could the witness be brought in, please.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 WITNESS: VESNA BOSANAC [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, Dr. Bosanac, if I could remind you
10 of the affirmation you made at the commencement of your evidence, which
11 still applies. I would also mention that word has been passed to me from
12 the Victims and Witnesses Unit that Dr. Bosanac is concerned whether she
13 might look at the transcript of the proceedings on Friday, as she has a
14 concern that she confused some documents in giving her evidence.
15 I thought I would mention that in court before acting on it, to
16 see whether there was any concern at that occurring.
17 If there is no concern, we will arrange for that to occur. It
18 probably won't be convenient for that to occur before you finish your
19 evidence today, Doctor. If you look at the evidence overnight and feel
20 you have a concern that you made a mistake, that word can be passed to the
21 Chamber and we will arrange for you to be recalled tomorrow to clarify
22 whatever it is that concerns you.
23 Is that satisfactory?
24 Very well. Thank you for that. Now, Mr. Lukic, were you in the
25 course of your cross-examination.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good
2 afternoon to my friends and colleagues from the OTP.
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
4 Q. Good afternoon to the witness. I will now continue with my
5 cross-examination of the witness.
6 As for the following set of questions that I'm about to ask you,
7 could you please focus exclusively on the number of wounded and sick who
8 were in fact in the hospital as patients in the last days before the
9 war -- before the fall. Can you please exclude medical staff, the
10 families of the medical staff wounded from this reckoning. You told me on
11 Friday, during your testimony on examination-in-chief, that on the 18th of
12 November, there were no new sick or wounded persons registered at the
13 hospital. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Does that mean that the last wounded and ill persons to be
16 registered in the hospital were registered on the 17th or on the 18th?
17 Can you perhaps remember that?
18 A. I remember that from the 18th of November on, not one new wounded
19 person was admitted into the hospital.
20 Q. I assume that you forwarded this information to Zagreb, more
21 specifically to Dr. Hebrang, in relation to your negotiations on
23 A. We spoke on the phone and I told him at the time that there were
24 about 400 wounded and sick to be evacuated.
25 Q. Please, let's take one thing at a time. I'm just asking you about
1 whether you forwarded that specific bit of information to Hebrang or not.
2 Perhaps for the benefit of the Chamber, let us be more specific about
3 this. Who was Mr. Hebrang at the time? Which position did he hold?
4 A. He was the health Minister of the Republic of Croatia. He
5 negotiated on the evacuation on behalf of the Croatian government.
6 Q. Can you please try to think back? What I want to know is do you
7 remember, concerning the number of the wounded and ill in the hospital on
8 that day, or on those days, the 17th, the 18th or perhaps the 20th, the
9 last days before the fall, how many were envisaged to be transported out
10 of the hospital in an ambulance, having been classified as immobile, and
11 how many of them were actually able to get on to buses and be taken away
12 on buses? Is this something you remember?
13 A. I remember that at the time, there were about 400 wounded and ill
14 persons in the hospital. About half of them, between 180 and 200 required
15 transport by an ambulance. Those people were either seriously wounded or
16 immobile, were not able to walk.
17 Q. Did all of the wounded and sick persons wish to be taken back to
18 Croatia during the evacuation?
19 A. We drew up lists and we took this into account. Most of those
20 requested to go back to Croatia. Some requested to go to Belgrade or Novi
21 Sad and some of them in fact requested to remain where they were in
23 Q. Do you perhaps know that about 110 wounded and sick requested to
24 go to Belgrade and Novi Sad? Is this something that you're familiar with?
25 A. I'm aware that some of them did in fact request that but I do not
1 remember their specific number.
2 Q. Just for the benefit of the claim, Novi Sad, where is Novi Sad?
3 A. Novi Sad is in Vojvodina, Yugoslavia, now Serbia and Montenegro.
4 Q. When you spoke to Mr. Hebrang on the phone about the specific
5 numbers of persons and the facilities to be used during the evacuation,
6 ambulances, and so on and so forth, did he mention that there might be
7 trouble, that he might be facing a lot of trouble organising the requested
8 number of ambulances and other technical necessities?
9 A. He never said he believed they would be facing any difficulty with
10 that. He only said that the first stretch of the evacuation route would
11 be secured by the International Red Cross and the Yugoslav army jointly.
12 And the stretch from Nustar on would have ambulances and medical vehicles
13 waiting for the wounded to be taken away.
14 Q. Therefore, on the 17th, when you spoke to Hebrang you told him
15 that there were between 180 and 200 wounded that required transport by
16 special medical vehicles, isn't that what you told him?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Correction, line -- it's been corrected. Thank you.
19 You testified on Thursday, the 27th, about there being about 180
20 seriously wounded persons and a total of 400 people to be included in the
21 evacuation; isn't that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Two days earlier, before this very same Trial Chamber, you spoke
24 about 450 people needing evacuation. You said that on the 25th, page 15
25 of the transcript. Do you remember that?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. You spoke about these same figures in your statement to the
3 investigators of the OTP in 1995. On the occasion you said that on the
4 17th of November, you had a total of 250 wounded persons and over 100
5 elderly and sick. You did say that in 1995. I suppose you've gone
6 through your statement since. You saw it the other day; it was shown to
8 A. Yes, of course, I did read it again. However this is a statement
9 that I gave back in 1995 and I can no longer remember with any degree of
10 accuracy what exactly I said. I know there were between 400 and 450
11 wounded and sick persons at the hospital but I can't be very specific
12 about the figures right now.
13 Q. Well, it's been only two days and the discrepancy amounts to 50
14 persons. So that seems like a significant figure to me.
15 A. That's certainly not all right, but there is something I wish to
17 Q. Please do so.
18 A. On the last days all of those who arrived, I'm talking about the
19 lightly wounded with surface wounds, dislocated joints, the hospital was
20 brimful with these people. We would dress their wounds and just send them
21 off to nearby shelters. As I said before, in early November, the route
22 along Priljevo street had been blocked. This is a road that we used to
23 transport the wounded to Borovo Komerc, which had a shelter. After that
24 we took them to the Olajnica neighbourhood local shelter and to the
25 Ivolola Riber [phoen] school building shelter. There were plenty of those
1 who could have been classified as slightly wounded. They were not
2 registered as patients of our hospital but I envisaged them to be part of
3 the evacuation.
4 Q. But they were not in the hospital itself in those days as
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you know when negotiations took place in Zagreb between
8 Mr. Hebrang and General Raseta? Is this something that Mr. Hebrang shared
9 with you?
10 A. Yes, he did. We spoke on the phone almost on a daily basis and he
11 said that there were continuing negotiations throughout that week,
12 virtually on a daily basis. There had been negotiations to do with
13 previous attempts and previous evacuations. They were having negotiations
14 about this last evacuation throughout that week.
15 Q. When do you think this round of negotiations drew to a close?
16 A. I believe on the 17th. It was a Sunday.
17 Q. If the Registrar could please show the witness the following
18 document: MFI 40, ID. The so-called Zagreb agreement. If we could
19 please have that displayed on the screen?
20 [In English] Marked for identification, 40. [Interpretation] Can
21 you see it? This is an English copy of the document. Do you think we
22 could have a B/C/S version displayed, Mr. Usher, if I can have your
23 assistance, please? [In English] The B/C/S version.
24 A. There must be a printed copy, I think.
25 Q. I'll provide one so you don't have to worry about that. Can you
1 please look at paragraph 1 of the document and tell us what you see. When
2 did these negotiations take place and when was the agreement allegedly
3 signed? That's in paragraph 1?
4 A. Yes. I can see that. It says they met on the 18th of November
5 and reached an agreement and so on and so forth, "the following
6 agreement," it says. However this is not something that I can comment on,
7 given the fact that I wasn't present at this meeting. I know that on the
8 17th, the previous Sunday, I had been informed about an evacuation that
9 was to take place on the 18th in the morning hours. Now, as to when
10 exactly the agreement was signed, at what time and how, is something I
11 simply don't know.
12 Q. Can you please look at paragraph 4 of the agreement? You provided
13 information to Mr. Hebrang. This is something you told me a minute ago.
14 How come we see the following figures, 40 seriously ill and 360
16 A. I really don't know. I gave the exact information that I gave to
17 you a while ago.
18 Q. Very well.
19 A. It says, 360 or so casualties of whom around a third will require
20 stretchers. There was a typo or some sort of misunderstanding that
21 occurred. That much is obvious.
22 Q. Can you please tell me, is there a single word in this document in
23 front of you referring to civilians? Do you see a single reference to
24 civilian persons or medical staff in this document?
25 A. Do you want me to read the entire document or what?
1 Q. Not necessarily.
2 A. I'm telling you what I know had been agree. I'm telling you about
3 the information that I provided on that occasion. If you want me to go
4 through the document, I can. I can read it out loud.
5 Q. There is no need for you to do that. I'm just putting it to you
6 that you said, in your examination-in-chief, that Mr. Hebrang had told you
7 that the wounded and ill would be the first to be evacuated and that the
8 civilians would not be evacuated until the next day but you did not in
9 fact see the specific agreement in which there is no reference whatsoever
10 to anything like this. Let's move on. We shall no longer be requiring
11 this document, thank you.
12 Can we now please go back to the appeals that you wrote? Can the
13 witness please be shown the following document, the Exhibit 22? We had a
14 problem identifying this document because it had first been marked as 21.
15 The date on the appeal, on the call for help, is the 3rd of November.
16 That's right. Do you see the document on the screen in front of
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. You went through this document on examination-in-chief, and you
20 told us that all the information provided in these appeals were accurate
21 and based on information you had obtained from your own unit, your own
23 A. Can we please just try to track down a printed copy? Because
24 the -- this is very difficult for me to read.
25 Q. Should be fine now. Can you follow now?
1 A. Yes, I can, thank you.
2 Q. What exactly did you ascertain on that day about the number of
3 wounded and ill in your hospital? What does it say here?
4 A. It says 350.
5 Q. And that's accurate, isn't it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can the witness now please be shown Exhibit 23?
8 Would you please zoom in? Could it be enlarged? Can you see how
9 many patients you had on the following day in the hospital?
10 A. Yes, I can see that, 270.
11 Q. Can you please explain how come you released 70 or 80 patients in
12 one day?
13 A. As I told you, we released whomever we could and released them to
14 the local shelters. In the Borovo Komerc shelter we had an auxiliary
15 hospital running and also there were over 15 other shelters throughout
16 Vukovar and Borovo Naselje where we also sent those who were ready to be
18 Q. Could the witness now be shown Exhibit 34, please? [In English]
19 Exhibit 34.
20 [Interpretation] This is your telephone message, as you have
21 described to us, dated on the 18th of November at 0850?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How many patients did you have then?
24 A. 600 patients, plus about 200 in the auxiliary hospital in Borovo
25 Komerc. I expected them to be evacuated at the same time as the people
1 from the hospital.
2 Q. But you stated that there were 600 patients in the hospital.
3 That's what it says here.
4 A. What I had in mind was 400 patients in the hospital plus 200 in
5 Borovo Komerc which was an auxiliary hospital where there were also
7 Q. Could we now be shown Exhibit 37?
8 Could we please see the enlarged print?
9 This was composed on the same day, at 1540. This is your message.
10 So several hours later, how many wounded did you have?
11 A. I wrote down "over 500."
12 Q. Which could be 1.000, right?
13 A. Yes, it could be. But I wrote down here "over 500," because I had
14 in mind those who were in the hospital and those in the vicinity. That's
15 what I had in mind when I gave this figure.
16 Q. Did you perhaps have in mind those who were put on patient lists
17 even though they were not patients? And this is how this number came to
18 be so large, increased so rapidly?
19 A. No, I didn't have them in mind. Whom I had in mind were the
20 people in the shelters in the vicinity.
21 Q. So it is your claim that you did not manipulate with the figure of
22 the wounded and patients in your calls for help?
23 A. No, I did not manipulate.
24 Q. Could we go into private session briefly?
25 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.
1 [Private session]
11 Page 856 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Dr. Njavro, on the 19th, in the afternoon, was he in the
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know that he also gave a statement to the OTP at the same
10 time you did?
11 A. I'm not aware of that.
12 Q. Will you agree with me that he is one of the persons who was very
13 actively involved in the hospital staff, was quite familiar with what was
14 happening at the hospital?
15 A. I suppose he was.
16 Q. He also claims that Sljivancanin arrived together with Borsinger
17 at the hospital?
18 A. He might have seen that when he arrived in the evening with
19 Borsinger, and I can tell you that in the afternoon I came out of the
20 hospital and (redacted) Dr. Njavro left the hospital and went
21 outside. They were inside in the basement. Therefore, they were unable
22 to know when he arrived there the first time, I think, because they were
23 in the basement.
24 Q. And you're claiming that the civilians were taken out in the
25 afternoon hours?
1 A. Yes. It was still light upon my return from Negoslavci, it was
2 around 4.00 or 5.00 in the afternoon.
3 Q. All right. Let's just take it slowly. Who is Zeljka Zgonjanin?
4 A. Zeljka Zgonjanin is a lady who worked as a representative of the
5 Croatian Red Cross in Vukovar, the city of Vukovar.
6 Q. Did she compile a list of civilians?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Binazija Kolesar was your head nurse; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did Binazija Kolesar move around the hospital in those days or did
11 she mostly sit in the office?
12 A. She moved around.
13 Q. Did she tell you what she said to The Hague investigators when she
14 gave a statement?
15 A. No, she didn't.
16 Q. She claims that civilians were taken in the evening when it was
17 dark, that she approached civilians asking them where they were going, and
18 that civilians told her that Zeljka Zgonjanin had organised for them to be
19 transported in the trucks. So this is what your head nurse stated. Did
20 she have any reasons to lie to the investigators?
21 A. I don't think she had any reasons to lie but I believe that she
22 wasn't sufficiently informed.
23 Q. Binazija Kolesar even claims that she didn't see a single soldier,
24 JNA soldier or paramilitary soldier, taking any civilians out of the
25 hospital that night. At that point in time, you had already been taken to
1 Negoslavci; is that right?
2 A. Binazija Kolesar was unable to see that because she was in the
3 hospital in the basement, and this was taking place in the courtyard of
4 the hospital. The door which was normally closed was open at the time,
5 and civilians who were in the hospital were being taken out.
6 Q. So how, then, was Binazija Kolesar, who was in the basement, able
7 to talk with civilians who were in the courtyard?
8 A. I don't know where she talked with them.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore?
10 MR. MOORE: I object to the line of questioning because my learned
11 friend Mr. Lukic is asking the witness to give opinion evidence by way of
12 explanation of what Kolesar saw or did not see. It's a -- the correct
13 approach in my submission is to ask questions in relation to what this
14 witness saw, ask Kolesar what she saw, if there is a disparity to draw the
15 Court's attention to it in due course, but how can this witness pass or
16 give evidence on something that she herself says that she does not know
17 and did not see? She is being asked to speculate.
18 JUDGE PARKER: I think, though, Mr. Moore, it is fair that the
19 witness have an opportunity to comment on any different account of the
20 facts by somebody such as the witness Kolesar, or the potential witness
21 Kolesar, in case there is some explanation that readily occurs to Dr.
22 Bosanac. So that in that respect, I disagree with your submission.
23 But it is also correct, Mr. Lukic, that you are going further than
24 that and you are trying to get this witness to give an explanation for
25 differences and she simply may not be in that position. And if that's the
1 case, that's all she can say. She understands one set of facts. If
2 somebody else understands another, she cannot comment further. But I
3 think it's proper for you to draw to her attention the significant
4 differences as you see them and see whether she does have any explanation.
5 Thank you.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I put the
7 question based on the opinion of this witness that Binazija Kolesar was
8 unable to see these things, so this is what she stated herself based on
9 which I put this additional question as to -- the witness was able to see
10 that. However, I do accept your suggestions.
11 Q. At any rate, Mrs. Bosanac, you're aware of the fact that Binazija
12 Kolesar in the afternoon and in the evening, as head nurse, was in the
13 hospital building and was moving about the building. You are aware of
14 that, aren't you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And after all of these things that I put to you, all of these
17 claims, you still stand by your statement that the civilians were taken in
18 the afternoon, that Sljivancanin came in the afternoon, and Borsinger only
19 came in the evening?
20 A. Yes. I'm stating that because that was my experience.
21 Q. I understood it that you were shocked by the fact that civilians
22 were taken in the afternoon; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And why is it that you never mentioned that to Mr. Borsinger when
25 you talked to them in the evening?
1 A. Why I didn't state that? I told him that we had been waiting for
2 two days.
3 Q. Yes. I heard you say that. But please don't repeat that. What
4 I'm asking you is: Why did you not ask him about this fact that shocked
6 A. I'm telling you, at that point in time I was focused on the
7 evacuation of the hospital and I believed that to be a priority.
8 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that Mr. Sljivancanin, when he was in
9 the hospital, he toured the room, visited the room, where the Crisis Staff
10 was in the hospital? He wanted to see that room. Did he say anything
11 about that, and can you tell us how far that building is from the main
12 hospital building?
13 A. The Crisis Staff of the hospital does not exist as a separate
14 room. The Crisis Staff of the hospital held meetings in August in the old
15 administration building which was totally destroyed. At that point in
16 time, everything took place in the basement of the hospital in the room
17 where I was, which could fit only three to four people.
18 Q. So there isn't a building in the vicinity of the main hospital
19 building which housed the staff?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Could you please tell me this: Several days ago, when you
22 testified in your examination-in-chief, you said that only a part of the
23 medical documentation pertaining to the wounded was ready for evacuation
24 and that a large portion remained there and that it is now missing, as
25 though the hospital never operated in 1991. Is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Please tell me, whose documentation were you able to prepare?
3 Documentation of which patients?
4 A. We prepared for evacuation all patients who were wounded and who
5 were in the hospital, and their documentation. However, that
6 documentation was not evacuated with us. Rather, it remained in the
8 Q. Isn't it true that each patient had a bag with his or her
9 documentation on him?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Why, then, did you say several days ago that you'd only prepared
12 documents for a limited number of patients?
13 A. I said for those who had been wounded previously. I said we had
14 the documents in their entirety in two boxes for x-rays to be taken away
15 belonging to those hospitals who were no longer there.
16 Q. Did each and every patient about to be evacuated have their
17 medical files, their case histories on them?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you for clarifying that for us, doctor.
20 You testified today, and I believe my colleague Mr. Vasic asked
21 you the same question, that you were sending information on the numbers of
22 patients to Zagreb on virtually a daily basis. You said that on Friday,
23 didn't you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What were those reports made up of? What sort of information did
1 they include? Did they have first and last names, that sort of thing?
2 A. First and last names, addresses, diagnosis, ethnic background, and
3 status as a police officer, civilian, soldier.
4 Q. When exactly did you begin to send those reports?
5 A. The 15th of August.
6 Q. On a daily basis?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You also testified on Friday that when you reached Zagreb and were
9 eventually free, you had occasion to look at some of those reports that
10 you had previously written. Did you in fact and where was that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Dating to which period?
13 A. August, September, October, all the way until the 6th of November.
14 Q. Did you continue to send reports after the 6th of November?
15 A. Yes. We typed them into the computer and we sent printed copies
16 too, but I never actually saw those arrive.
17 Q. Did you ask Mr. Hebrang or whoever was in charge of those
18 documents why the other reports from after the 6th of November were
20 A. They said that there had been a communication breakdown, the lines
21 broke down after that date and the reports were no longer able to reach
22 them via computer, and the same applied to the printed copies. Those that
23 were meant for the defence staff, for the Ministry of Internal Affairs,
24 and for the Red Cross. All those remained in the hospital. I was never
25 aware of anyone taking those files away. I think they all stayed back at
1 the hospital.
2 Q. How were printed copies forwarded, by fax?
3 A. Yes, by fax.
4 Q. There is not a single printed copy at the health ministry dated
5 after the 6th of November, but the appeals are there?
6 A. Yes. The appeals are there because those documents were preserved
7 by some ladies working for the European Commission Monitoring Mission and
8 they later gave me these reports when I was in Zagreb.
9 Q. What about the printed copies that were sent after the 6th of
10 November? Those were destroyed, weren't they?
11 A. I can tell you what I know about the fate of those documents. And
12 at this point, I am no longer to tell you anything else. Maybe there
13 should be a court order sent to one of these institutions. The defence
14 ministry, Ministry of Internal Affairs or the Croatian Red Cross, to have
15 a look and see if they can track down any of those.
16 Q. Did you in fact ever request from the International Red Cross the
17 specific lists that you gave to Borsinger on the 18th? Did you ever
18 request that?
19 A. We requested many things over the years, but the only thing that
20 we were able to obtain was the list of people who were eventually
21 evacuated on those two days. 120 on the 20th of November and another 54
22 wounded on the next day, a total of 174 wounded. We have lists.
23 Q. We know all these things.
24 A. How do I know whether you know about these things? We haven't
25 spoken about these things so far.
1 Q. I believe the Prosecutor might be asking these questions on
2 re-examination because this needs clarifying but what I want to know for
3 the time being is whether, on the 17th or the 18th, you sent any printed
4 reports to Zagreb about the numbers of wounded, sick, and so forth?
5 A. I said that on those days, those three days I was no longer able
6 to fax or phone any messages. I just used the phone link to give them the
7 total of wounded persons at the hospital.
8 Q. Would you agree with me if I put it to you that those reports
9 containing the names of the wounded and ill, even if they in fact existed,
10 would not be convenient for your authorities because they would show the
11 exact numbers of those wounded and ill who ended up in Ovcara?
12 A. You're not right in saying that because I have 97 wounded people
13 who were registered at Ovcara and I have the list on me in case you're
15 Q. You identified those persons as wounded based on the bandages they
16 wore or what?
17 A. No. Based on our database, the database that we had in our
19 Q. At the Zagreb-based health ministry?
20 A. In addition to which I have to state the following. I'm not sure
21 if you're familiar with this. As for the identification of those killed
22 or executed at Ovcara, was conducted by the American -- by an American
23 forensic team and their post-mortems contain all of the conclusions and
24 findings that they reached. There is no doubt about the fact that
25 findings that they reached. There is no doubt about the fact that these
1 people were wounded and ill, the people that we are talking about now.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 Q. I'll now be asking you a couple of questions about -- just a
4 minute, please.
5 Can you just please tell me: Where was this database on patients
6 that you kept? Was it in the Vukovar Hospital or in Zagreb and where in
8 A. In the Vukovar Hospital.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 A. You mean now or back in 1991?
11 Q. In 1991.
12 A. In 1991, it was in our computer in the Vukovar Hospital and it was
13 forwarded to the medical headquarters of the health ministry in Zagreb.
14 Q. On the 6th of November?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. What about the computer that you had in the hospital?
17 Where exactly did you keep this database?
18 A. I think it was later taken to Belgrade. I saw it in the press
19 later on, in a newspaper called Ilustrovana Politika. One of the JNA
20 soldiers were in fact using that computer. There was a photograph in
21 December 1991 that I remember looking at.
22 Q. Where was the shelter of the Crisis Staff in the hospital?
23 A. There was no such thing as a Crisis Staff shelter. The Crisis
24 Staff was not inside a shelter. The only persons inside the shelter were
25 those seriously wounded, women, and children.
1 Q. I would like to ask you about your conversation with
2 Mr. Sljivancanin in Negoslavci on the evening of the 19th. How long did
3 that interrogation last, in your estimate, in Negoslavci?
4 A. About half an hour, up to 40 minutes, I reckon.
5 Q. How many people were there at the time?
6 A. There was this person, I'm not sure what his name was. I refer to
7 him as captain in my statement because I heard him called that in
8 Mitrovica. Sasa he was there, Major Sljivancanin, and myself.
9 Q. The three of you?
10 A. Yes, precisely.
11 Q. Please try to think back clearly and tell me exactly whether you
12 remember if during your interrogation at Negoslavci a camcorder was on all
13 the time and whether the whole interview was in fact recorded. Is this
14 something you remember?
15 A. No.
16 Q. "No," does that mean you don't remember or you're actually certain
17 that no camcorder was there?
18 A. I don't remember. I'm quite sure I was recorded at the barracks
19 but not in Negoslavci. I don't think there was one.
20 Q. Do you remember that on that occasion, you told the then
21 Major Sljivancanin that on the last day a large number of National Guards
22 Corps members arrived in the hospital and that you opposed this, that you
23 opposed them entering the hospital?
24 A. I said that a large number of civilians had arrived, and this was
25 something that I had opposed.
1 Q. Why oppose civilians being there?
2 A. Because the hospital was overcrowded as it was with wounded and
3 ill. We had no running water, no electricity. They came. They were
4 there for two days just squatting around. We had nothing but tea to give
5 children to drink.
6 Q. So that was your reason?
7 A. Yes, precisely.
8 Q. Tell me about the morning of the 20th, the 20th of November when
9 you were returned to the hospital from Negoslavci. Prior to the meeting
10 at the plaster room, do you remember that you were with Sljivancanin and
11 Dr. Ivezic, another Colonel in your office, the two of them were alone
12 with you at the beginning?
13 A. No, I don't remember that.
14 Q. You don't remember?
15 A. There was an officer, carrying a rifle, who was in the room
16 throughout. He was with me throughout. He answered the phone and he
17 wouldn't allow me to answer the phone myself.
18 Q. Yes, we know that. But what about the morning?
19 A. I was returned at about 6.30 in the morning and there was one man
20 there with me.
21 Q. Do you remember that this doctor, Colonel, from the military --
22 the medical academy tell you personally that the patients had to be
23 brought in and examined?
24 A. No. I don't remember that. I just remember that Sljivancanin
25 told me that I was no longer in charge of the hospital, that I should
1 convene all of my staff in the plaster room, so-called plaster room.
2 That's all I remember.
3 Q. Would I be wrong in saying that you yourself in fact proposed that
4 this meeting take place, the meeting with the medical staff and the
5 doctors who arrived from the military medical academy to deal with these
6 medical examinations would I be wrong in saying that?
7 A. Major Sljivancanin requested that we find the biggest room
8 possible in which we could meet. I told him that the best place to meet
9 was the so-called plaster room because that was the only vacant empty room
10 or hall inside the whole hospital.
11 Q. What about this doctor you said was with him then. You said there
12 were about six or seven persons there, that's what you said isn't it?
13 A. Yes that's what I saw in the plaster room when I came. They were
14 just standing there.
15 Q. Do you remember whether any of them said to set up mixed teams of
16 doctors who would then examine patients? Do you remember anything about
18 A. No. This is not something that I heard at the time.
19 Q. There were six or seven doctors who arrived in the plaster room
20 along with Major Sljivancanin. You did say that, didn't you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You were taken from the plaster room back to your office, I
23 expect, weren't you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you remember that you talked with Mr. Sljivancanin alone at
1 this point in time?
2 A. No. I just know that there was that one man there who was
3 watching me and keeping me from answering the phone myself.
4 Q. You don't remember you actually asked Sljivancanin what would
5 become of you now?
6 A. No. What do you mean by that?
7 Q. Whether you would be allowed to go back to your family in Zagreb.
8 A. No. I believed at the time that the hospital would be evacuated,
9 that I would remain and go to Borovo Komerc in order to help with
10 evacuating the wounded and ill from Komerc.
11 Q. Do you remember Sljivancanin asking you about an officer named
12 Rajko Tomic and that, in Sljivancanin's presence, you made a phone call to
13 Zagreb to ask about this Rajko Tomic, do you remember that?
14 A. No. I read about this in Sljivancanin's book but it's not
15 something that I remember happening.
16 Q. Do you remember that in your presence he called someone on that
17 same phone asking them what to do with you? You don't remember that?
18 A. No, I don't.
19 Q. Very well. I would like to hear about some details. I find this
20 very interesting. Can you please describe this interrogation in the
21 barracks basement on the evening of the 20th? Who brought you there, how
22 long were you there for, what did you talk about, and who exactly was
24 A. I spent the whole day in the barracks with Marin Vidic in a first
25 floor room. The man who brought us there came back at about 6.00 in the
1 afternoon, late in the afternoon. He said the situation had changed, the
2 major was facing some sort of difficulty, the evacuation had been
3 completed, and that we will to stay there and spend the night. He took us
4 to a different room with many beds in it, and we just sat down, each of us
5 on one bed and we were being guarded throughout, watched throughout.
6 At about 10.00 in the evening a soldier came into the room and
7 told me to follow him. Marin also stood up to follow but he told him to
8 stay put and took me downstairs. I think it was the ground floor that he
9 took me to but I'm not certain.
10 There were several officers waiting there, wearing camouflage
11 uniforms. There was one lady, also wearing a camouflage uniform. They
12 had cameras there, camcorders, and they asked me whether I agreed to give
13 a statement. I asked what sort of statement? They said well, about the
14 situation at the hospital. I said I had nothing against that. And
15 eventually I gave some sort of a statement there, I'm not sure how long it
16 took. It may have taken about 15 minutes, between 10 and 15 minutes. The
17 lady spoke to me in such a way that I felt a certain amount of hostility.
18 They all appeared to be angry with me. Her son had been a soldier. He
19 was in the barracks. And the barracks came under fire. I remember the
20 details of that conversation. I was then taken outside the barracks in a
21 Black Maria paddy wagon, the sort of vehicle they use to transport
23 Q. Thank you very much. We heard about this already. Can we now
24 please go through the statement that the witness gave at the Sremska
25 Mitrovica prison? I believe Mr. Borovic showed her a portion of the
1 statement some days ago. This is 3D000001. That's the B/C/S. And 3 D
2 00-0126 for the English. Both versions have been scanned and are in the
3 E-Court system. In order to expedite proceedings, I prepared a hard copy
4 for Mrs. Bosanac. So if Mr. Usher could please assist me with this. We
5 would like to have there displayed on the screen but maybe she will find
6 it handier to actually use a hard copy. This is both the English version
7 and the B/C/S.
8 Can we please have the following page displayed in E-Court,
9 3D00/0110. That's for the B/C/S. For the English, 3D000181. [In
10 English] English version.
11 [Interpretation] Mrs. Bosanac, the green marker there should help
12 you to find the right page. This is something that I prepared for you.
13 If you could please turn up that particular page, the first that is marked
14 in green. It says 345 at the top corner, the last three numbers, doesn't
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you please slowly read passage two. It starts with the words
18 "Colonel Branko."
19 A. To Colonel Branko who conducted an interview with me and analysed
20 what had happened, I wish to thank him sincerely, I believe it reads, for
21 his humane treatment and giving me hope that there were peace loving or
22 peace seeking people in the JNA, and people who want a peaceful
23 coexistence of all the peoples in it these areas. He treated me in a fair
24 manner both as a human being and as a doctor. Statement given by Vesna
25 Bosanac, the 17th -- the 7th of November 1991. Sremska Mitrovica.
1 Q. Let us clarify, please. Colonel Branko was the man who
2 interrogated you at Sremska Mitrovica?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I can see here that this statement is quite voluminous. Can you
5 tell me how long the interrogation or interview lasted?
6 A. When I arrived in Mitrovica on the 21st of November, the date here
7 is wrong. Obviously wrong. It says the 7th of November. It wasn't then.
8 It was when I was leaving Mitrovica and perhaps in haste I wrote the date
9 inaccurately. But the interview lasted until the 11th of November which
10 means about three weeks.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we be shown page 3D000136?
12 That's the English version. B/C/S version is 3D000021.
13 MR. MOORE: Would it be possible for my learned friend to call out
14 the page number at the bottom of the English translation? I find that
15 sometimes easier to find. If it's possible. Thank you very much.
16 MR. LUKIC: English version is page 11.
17 MR. MOORE: Thank you.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Take the previous portion, Mrs. Bosanac. Take a look at what is
20 marked in red and please refer to that page. The last three digits are
21 256; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Would you please read out slowly the second paragraph?
24 A. You mean "in previous days"? "In previous days Dr. Njavro toured
25 the ill and selected the wounded for convoy in accordance with his
1 criteria among whom there were the most numerous were guards and civilians
2 and, among them, was also a soldier of JNA Zivkovic, Ivan, who surrendered
3 after being wounded."
4 Q. And when my colleague and I asked you about Ivan Zivkovic, you
5 told us that you'd never heard that name?
6 A. Yes. But you have to bear in mind that I wrote this statement
7 after the fall of Vukovar and that in the following 14 years, I never gave
8 a thought to this man.
9 Q. In that case, if you have any doubts, it's better for you to say
10 you don't know than to state something firmly.
11 A. Well, you asked me whether I knew Ivan Zivkovic and the name
12 didn't sound familiar. I wrote this 14 years ago, and I have no
13 recollection of this name.
14 Q. Well, do you have recollection now?
15 A. Well, I just read this, and of course I know that I wrote this
16 down at the time, but in the meantime I forgot the name. Even now, I
17 cannot assign a face to this name.
18 Q. Would you please tell Their Honours who Ivica Arbanas was?
19 A. Ivica Arbanas at the time, during the war, had a position -- I'm
20 not sure what his position was, but he frequently came to the hospital to
21 visit some wounded people. This is how his name is familiar to me.
22 Q. Did he do something in the police force?
23 A. He was not a policeman, not in the sense of a policeman wearing a
24 police uniform. He had a camouflage uniform similar to the one worn by
25 the members of the National Guards Corps.
1 Q. And at the time, you knew that Arbanas wanted to keep Ivan
2 Zivkovic there as a source of information?
3 A. That's what I thought at the time but I couldn't be sure whether I
4 saw this myself or this is something that he had told me.
5 Q. If I were to refresh your memory and tell you this: Do you
6 remember that this soldier, Ivan Zivkovic, was supposed to be taken to
7 Zagreb against his will? I assume that they wanted to interrogate him
8 there. Do you know anything about that?
9 A. No. I really was not involved in compiling that list. Some
10 civilians came to inquire whether they could join the convoy and were told
11 no, that only the wounded could go with the convoy.
12 Q. Could you please turn the next page? It's the same page for the
13 English version?
14 JUDGE PARKER: I think we might pause at this moment before you go
15 to the next page.
16 We will have a break now until just after a quarter to 4.00 and
17 resume then.
18 --- Break taken at 3.27 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 3.50 p.m.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic?
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Let us continue examining this document. I think that we are now
23 on the page with the last three digits, 257?
24 A. Yes?
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And for my learned from the
1 Prosecution, we are still focusing on page 11 of the English translation.
2 This first passage is quite a lengthy one and there is a sentence in it
3 starting with the following words, "one of the members of the European
4 mission ..." Would you please read that out.
5 A. "One of the members of the European mission noticed that in the
6 hospital, and in front of the hospital," I suppose that's what it says,
7 "there are a lot of Croatian soldiers." And then I replied that "in
8 addition to security personnel, there was no one else except for those who
9 were curious, the wounded, the family, those who were leaving."
10 Q. In order to avoid any confusion, this pertains to the part of the
11 statement dealing with the October evacuation. That part of your
12 statement. At least that's how it looks to me. It pertains to the 18th
13 of October 1991. Do you remember the dialogue you had with the
14 representative of the European Monitoring Mission? That's how you called
15 that person, although it must have been a person from Medecins Sans
16 Frontieres. Would you please take a look at that page again.
17 A. Yes. I have looked at it.
18 Q. Do you remember that anyone from those NGOs or representatives of
19 international organisations escorting the convoy, did any of them notice
20 that there were a lot of soldiers in the hospital or around the hospital?
21 Do you remember that detail?
22 A. I can't remember that detail now. When I wrote this down it was
23 probably something that was discussed. I remember that Mladen Jasreb
24 [phoen] told me that once European monitors arrive, I should try and bring
25 them to the municipal building to see Marin Vidic. I asked them when they
1 arrived and they said that they couldn't go anywhere else because they
2 were there in order to deal with evacuation, and then Marin Vidic and
3 another person came to the hospital to talk to them. I did not
4 participate in that conversation. I don't know what they talked about.
5 But I know that in addition to the security personnel, there were no other
6 soldiers in the hospital.
7 Q. So that could not have been described as a lot of soldiers?
8 A. No. And I really don't know what that conversation pertained to.
9 I can't remember.
10 Q. All right. Let us conclude with these interrogations you were
11 subjected to in Sremska Mitrovica, and what I put to you about the
12 attitude that you had towards Colonel Branko. Was this statement taken
13 under coercion? Did you put in that statement anything that wasn't true,
14 that was inaccurate? Do you remember that?
15 A. That entire situation in the prison in Sremska Mitrovica put me
16 under huge pressure. The way I arrived there, the way I was admitted in
17 there, the way I spent the first night in jail, those were very difficult,
18 very bad conditions and, for me, it was a huge psychological shock, and an
19 enormous pressure that I was put under. Once I arrived in the room with
20 other women, when I was not alone any more, I went to those interrogations
21 every day. In those interviews Colonel Branko treated me decently. The
22 statement was not phrased precisely as I wanted to phrase it. I wanted to
23 describe accurately the situation in Vukovar. However, he demanded that I
24 write that in accordance with the instructions and questions he put to me.
25 He told me not to write about the number of shells, the shooting, which I
1 wanted to describe. He told me to leave that for later. Therefore, this
2 statement was guided, guided by Colonel Branko, and I have to say that I
3 experienced all kinds of things in that prison. I assume that you're not
4 interested in that.
5 When I was supposed to leave, or rather when I was transferred to
6 Zagreb -- to Belgrade, the warden of the prison came suddenly --
7 Q. That's not part of my question.
8 A. Just a second. You asked me under what conditions I gave that
9 statement and whether the statement was true. So I have to answer. So
10 Colonel Branko asked me whether I could write in one sentence how he
11 treated me. I wrote that down at that point in time, describing my
12 feelings, and I was delighted because I was leaving the place. As for the
13 other facts, I can't say specifically because I tried to write down things
14 as I remembered them. The only thing that I wrote down inaccurately - and
15 I remember it to this day - had to do with the circumstances surrounding
16 my older son Damir. I stated there that he had left Vukovar earlier
17 because he had been wounded and he was indeed wounded but he didn't leave
18 earlier. In fact he didn't leave until the 17th in the evening. And as
19 far as I remember, that was the only untrue item I put in in there. At
20 the time I didn't know where my husband was, what had happened to him,
21 what kind of complications he would face because of all that.
22 MR. LUKIC: I would like to tender this document into evidence.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore? Are you rising?
24 MR. MOORE: No objection to that course.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. I thought I saw you trying to get to
1 your feet.
2 That will be received in evidence, Mr. Lukic.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 45, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. I don't have many more questions left. And before I turn to
7 another topic, I would like you to answer some questions concerning which
8 my client gave me instructions in the course of the break.
9 I asked you about the shelter of the hospital Crisis Staff and you
10 gave me your answer. I have another question related to that. In the
11 vicinity of the hospital, was there a shelter of the Crisis Staff of the
12 Vukovar defence and Mr. Mile Dedakovic?
13 A. I've already stated that that shelter was located in the yard of
14 the building housing the Secretariat for National Defence, which is about
15 1 kilometre from the hospital, exactly across from the museum of Count
16 Jelovac [phoen].
17 Q. So you are claiming that there was no shelter of the Crisis Staff
18 of Mr. Mile Dedakovic in the makeshift housing 50 metres from the
20 A. No. There wasn't. And in addition to that, there were no --
21 there was no makeshift housing there either.
22 Q. Do you know when were surgeon Jovic and the other two soldiers
23 taken out of the hospital? When did they leave hospital?
24 A. I don't know that. All I know is that that afternoon, I saw in
25 the 19th of November from my office, I saw Sasa talking to some soldiers
1 near the door. Then I called out to him, towed him to go back to his room
2 and to await the ICRC evacuation there. He said he would wait. But later
3 I didn't see him. So I don't know when he left.
4 Q. Do you remember by any chance whether Mr. Sljivancanin asked you
5 to see surgeon Jovic and the soldiers. Did he ask you whether he talked
6 to you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did he not ask for that or do you not remember?
9 A. I don't remember him asking that. And had he asked for that I
10 would have sent somebody to fetch him just as I asked somebody to go fetch
11 the doctor that he asked for.
12 Q. Well, that's precisely what I'm interested in. When did he ask
13 you to get in touch with Mrs. Gordana Mandic?
14 A. In the evening after the conversation with the ICRC. That could
15 have been at around 8.00.
16 Q. Evening?
17 A. Yes. Before I was taken to Negoslavci, or perhaps at around 9.00.
18 Q. Let us just correct the name in the transcript. The lady's name
19 is Gordana Antic, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you tell me who Ante Aric is, what did he do, how he ended up
22 in your office and how did he come to be taken out of the barracks
23 together with you and Dr. Njavro?
24 A. He was not taken out of the barracks. Ante Aric was a male nurse,
25 and he came there to assist us, together with the doctors who arrived in
1 late September of 1991. He was a male nurse. I don't know when he was
2 taken out of the hospital and where to, or, rather, later in a
3 conversation with him I heard that he had been taken to Negoslavci and
4 that he even saw some wounded in the basement of a private house. I saw
5 him when I was taken out of the barracks, when I was put in a Black Maria
6 when I entered that vehicle, Dr. Njavro and Ante Aric were already there.
7 Q. In Negoslavci after that conversation with Sljivancanin, when you
8 were taken to this school where the temporary house -- temporary hospital
9 was housed, were you bound?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did anybody mistreat you on that occasion?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you remember whether you were taken there in the presence of
14 JNA colonel who was the head of that hospital? Does the last name
15 Jovanovic mean anything to you?
16 A. No, I don't remember. None of those people introduced themselves
17 or mentioned their names. The only person who did introduce himself was
18 Colonel Mrksic when I first arrived in Negoslavci. None of the other
19 people I had contacts with introduced themselves. As for Veselin
20 Sljivancanin, I realised it was him only when I was in prison when I saw
21 in a magazine his photograph and a statement by him stating that he had
22 liberated Vukovar. This is when I recognised him as Veselin Sljivancanin.
23 Q. Just to wrap this up I'll ask you a couple of questions. When you
24 testified in chief, you said, when talking about the day of the
25 evacuation, you had been waiting for the European monitors to arrive. You
1 were under the impression that they were in a position to conduct the
2 evacuation in an effective way; isn't that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. But you didn't see them at that point; you only saw them later on
5 in the prison at Mitrovica?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You've been saying all these days that about 400 to 450 wounded
8 were supposed to be evacuated, some seriously, some slightly wounded;
9 isn't that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If I were to tell you that on that day, 82 seriously wounded
12 persons and 263 slightly wounded persons were evacuated, would you say
13 that I'm wrong? Just say yes or no, please?
14 A. Yes, you are wrong.
15 Q. Would I be wrong in saying that there remained another 52 wounded
16 who were evacuated on the following day?
17 A. The exact number is 54.
18 Q. Okay. So I'm wrong. Would I be wrong in saying that 110 wounded
19 decided to go back to Serbia?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. This information was provided by the European Monitoring Mission
22 who actually attended the evacuation on the 20th of November?
23 A. The problem is people had been taken to Ovcara before the monitors
25 Q. Please allow me to ask the question, if you will.
1 Do you actually believe that this information is accurate?
2 JUDGE PARKER: That was an observation that ought to be heard.
3 You have said what you want to say about the figure, have you,
4 Dr. Bosanac?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
7 Thank you, Mr. Lukic. I was just concerned you may have stopped
8 the witness before she finished.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My final question is:
10 Q. Does the witness place any trust in the European Monitoring
11 Mission whom she had awaited so in those days?
12 A. Of course, but I must say this again: They did not arrive at the
13 Vukovar Hospital in time and for this reason, their information is not
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
16 This concludes my cross investigation.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
18 Doctor, I have been informed that you now no longer need to see
19 the transcript of last Friday any further; is that correct?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct. I have the
21 transcript in my possession. I have found out in the meantime that they
22 were taken off the Internet.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. So there is nothing you want to clarify
24 about your evidence on Friday?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing further.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. In that event, Mr. Moore, we can turn
2 to you.
3 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much indeed.
4 Re-examined by Mr. Moore:
5 Q. Doctor, I have a few very questions for you but may I deal with
6 the first question? You were asked about the statement that was compiled
7 and whether in actual fact you had signed it. Would you be kind enough,
8 please, to look at the following document and confirm whether it is your
9 signature on each and every page?
10 I wonder if perhaps that could be done, please.
11 The Court may remember that we went through the various details
12 because the signature was missing because it was an abstract from the
13 statement itself.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. That's page 1. Can we just continue the process, please?
16 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
17 This is Mira Medic's signature.
18 Q. Would you be kind enough just to be shown the original document,
19 please? It's sitting to your right.
20 MR. MOORE: I'm sure the doctor can be handed the document. It
21 doesn't have to --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 MR. MOORE:
24 Q. And are all those the pages that you've identified, doctor?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you very much. Now I'd like you, please, or perhaps the
2 Court Usher would be kind enough to turn to what I will call the English
3 version, which you have there because it is in English, and go to the page
4 4 of 13, because you were asked questions about that. The bottom
5 right-hand corner, 4 of 13?
6 JUDGE PARKER: Can it be clarified for the claim what document it
7 is that we are dealing with, please, Mr. Moore?
8 MR. MOORE: This was the document that was cross-examined upon,
9 whether in actual fact it was an English original, the process that was
10 undertaken, because there was a discrepancy on what I will call page 4 of
11 13, whether in actual fact it was by November of 1991 or on November of
12 1991, if my memory serves me correctly.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Was that document marked identification?
14 MR. MOORE: It was certainly cross-examined on and that topic was
15 cross-examined on --
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
17 MR. MOORE: -- because there was a discrepancy between the Croatian
18 and the Serbian translation, if I can put it in simplistic terms for me.
19 It may well be that it was marked for identification but I'm absolutely
20 certain that it was cross-examined on, on that topic. And there was
21 questions --
22 JUDGE PARKER: No question of that. We are just trying to
23 identify the document.
24 MR. MOORE: Yes.
25 JUDGE PARKER: If it was marked, are you able to indicate the
2 MR. MOORE: From my recollection, it wasn't marked as an exhibit
3 per se.
4 JUDGE PARKER: No.
5 MR. MOORE: It was marked or it wasn't marked but the issue was --
6 well, twofold, one, was it signed --
7 JUDGE PARKER: We understand that. Just we want to know whether
8 it is a document that is in the system marked for identification or not.
9 MR. MOORE: Not that I'm aware of, no.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. Thank you. So this is a fresh
12 MR. MOORE: Yes. It was the document cross-examined upon. Thank
13 you very much.
14 Could we turn, please, then to the area or the page where
15 Dr. Bosanac was cross-examined on? That was 4 of 13. Are we able using
16 our splendid technology to highlight the second paragraph of that, please,
17 of the original document, which is in English? And, in English, is it
18 right that the actual paragraph starts, "By November 1991"? The point was
19 more for clarification. I think it was left really pending to assist the
20 Court. There was a request for the original which we have now obtained.
21 I'm entirely in the Court's hand in relation to that. I see no reason it
22 should be made an exhibit but if issue is going to be taken on later
23 proceedings then I would ask it be made an exhibit for clarification. I'm
24 entirely in my learned friends' hands in relation to that.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Can you identify the document by its date, and its
1 nature for the record?
2 MR. MOORE: Yes, I can. It is the statement of Dr. Vesna Bosanac.
3 It is dated, date of interviews are the 19th and 20th of June 1995 and the
4 21st and 23rd of July 1995. My hand --
5 JUDGE PARKER: To whom?
6 MR. MOORE: I beg your pardon?
7 JUDGE PARKER: To whom was the statement made?
8 MR. MOORE: The statement was compiled with the assistance of two
9 interpreters, one is a lady called Ivanka Anicic who apparently translated
10 questions in English to Croatian and Croatian answers into English. That
11 is on the 19th and 20th of June 1995. And then Mira Medic reading the
12 English translation into Croatian to the witness on the 21st and 23rd of
13 June. And the interpreter's certification, if my numbering is correct,
14 would be 00327823.
15 JUDGE PARKER: And I'm trying to get on to the record to whom the
16 statement was made. Is it an interviewer by the OTP?
17 MR. MOORE: It is a statement compiled for the OTP and, as I
18 say --
19 JUDGE PARKER: And it was the subject of cross-examination, I
20 think, by Mr. Borovic.
21 MR. MOORE: It was. And he specifically dealt with "by November"
22 or "on November." As I say, page 413. I wouldn't seek to make it an
23 exhibit unless there was some issue in relation to that point.
24 JUDGE PARKER: I would suggest that the document be marked for
1 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
2 THE REGISTRAR: The document number will be 46.
3 MR. MOORE: I wonder perhaps if we -- if that is the case, for my
4 part, OTP would like to retain the original unless there is any objection
5 to that course, and a photocopy with the signatures being used for the
6 Court. If, however, the Court wants the original, of course the Court
7 must have that.
8 JUDGE PARKER: I would suggest that once you've allowed the
9 members of the Defence teams to sack the original, that unless there is
10 any particular objection, that a photocopy version might become the
12 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. Perhaps while that's being done,
13 I can continue in re-examination, with the Court's leave.
14 Q. Doctor, you were asked about your participation as a doctor in the
15 Vukovar Hospital. Throughout the period, and I will say September,
16 October, and November, did you perform any operations on any patient?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Perhaps for completeness, if we go back, August and July, did you
19 at any time perform operations on any patient in those months?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Thank you. May we deal, then, please, with what I will call JNA
22 soldiers being in a separate room? You're aware of the questions from the
23 Defence on that topic. Why was it JNA soldiers were kept in a separate
24 room in the hospital?
25 A. Because at the time when they arrived in the hospital, as wounded
1 persons, the hospital was already overflowing with both wounded and
2 civilians. Dr. Njavro and I believed it was a good thing to keep them
3 apart so that Dr. Njavro could go and visit them. They were easily
4 accessible. We believed that in this way they would not be facing any
5 additional problems, such as being taunted by other patients.
6 Q. Thank you. May we move on to the level of treatment of patients?
7 There has been a suggestion that patients' treatment or perhaps lack of
8 treatment was determined by ethnicity, namely that these soldiers and
9 others of that same ethnic background or persuasion received lesser
10 treatment. Is that correct or not?
11 A. It's not correct. I felt taunted myself when I was asked those
12 questions because that is just not true.
13 Q. What were the principles that guided you as a doctor in the
14 Vukovar Hospital over September, October, November, when we deal about
16 A. I complied with all the professional guidelines and professional
17 code of ethics. Those were the only guidelines that I followed, namely to
18 help everyone who was sick or wounded and do the best job possible under
19 the circumstances.
20 Q. Thank you very much. I'd like you to be shown what I believe to
21 be a Defence Exhibit, and I believe it to be Exhibit 43. It is a ruling
22 apparently at the military court in Belgrade. Would you be kind enough to
23 be shown that document?
24 JUDGE PARKER: It is not an exhibit, Mr. Moore. It's marked for
25 identification as 43, I believe.
1 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much indeed.
2 Q. Now, doctor, have you got what I will call the little blue folder?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And would you --
5 A. Or, rather, I don't, I'm sorry, a blue folder.
6 Q. I'm hoping you've got the same colour as I have. Would you be
7 kind enough to go to the very last divider which is a lime green?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And if you look at the first document after that, on the top
10 right-hand corner, there seems to be page 270, 271, and then 272.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I can't tell exactly what page we are referring to in that
13 translation but you are asked and have been asked about an incident in the
14 first half of November 1991, the wounded soldier Boban Gacic. Have you
15 found that?
16 A. I need to find it first. Yes. I've got it now.
17 Q. I think it's at the top of page 271. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Now, you see what's particularised there,
20 that he was brought to the hospital where he was operated upon. I won't
21 go into the details. Do you have any recollection of such a person being
22 brought to the hospital?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. And can you remember exactly what his injuries were?
25 A. I can't remember specifically. But I heard from my colleagues
1 that he had been wounded and that as they were dressing his wounds, they
2 noticed that this was an incipient case of gaseous gangrene.
3 Q. This is the first half of November. I'm not going to go into your
4 faxes that you were sent or that you sent. Were you able or did you have
5 the medication at that time to deal with gangrene gas?
6 A. We had crystal penicillin at the time which we administered in
7 booster doses more often than not. I state with full responsibility that
8 all the medicines that we had in our possession were duly administered and
9 all the steps were taken to save that soldier's life. I even remember my
10 colleagues talking about what a wonderful lad he was. They even became
11 friends and they felt sorry that he ended up involved in this war. I know
12 that when he eventually died, everybody was greatly saddened.
13 Q. Thank you very much. The second soldier that's referred to is the
14 13th of November, the following paragraph. That is a soldier called Ivica
15 Nestorovic. Have you found that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, here again it's alleged that you were informed about this
18 young man but that you apparently denied him access to the hospital. Can
19 you remember the circumstances in relation to that?
20 A. This is certainly not true. At this point in time, I no longer
21 had any phone communication or any other form of communication with Borovo
22 Komerc. I only heard later, once I'd been released from prison and
23 reached Zagreb, about this patient, that he had been brought in, that he
24 was seriously wounded, and that they weren't able to operate. But that
25 they provided whatever assistance they could, whatever they had, despite
1 which he died. I remember this because Colonel Branko kept asking me
2 about these soldiers and he kept referring to Ivica Nestorovic who at the
3 time I was not able to recall. It was later when I got to Zagreb that I
4 heard about this person having been brought to Komerc. There was a
5 makeshift hospital there as we know and some nurses were there. But I
6 can't say that I recollect him being brought into the hospital, nor was I
7 ever informed of his presence.
8 Likewise, I need to add the following, now that we are talking
9 about this subject matter. When cross-examining, counsel asked me if I
10 knew who Dr. Kovacic was. I confirmed that I did but later I went back to
11 this document and realised that the reference is probably not to the
12 Dr. Kovacic I know but most likely to a different person. There is a
13 reference here to Dr. Kuzmanovic's statement about the fact that Dr.
14 Bosanac and Dr. Kovacic had been informed about this statement. The
15 Dr. Kovacic I know was neither at Komerc nor at the hospital. Therefore,
16 I don't think the reference is to the same doctor. And I can say nothing
17 further about it. All I can say with certainty is that I was not
19 Q. Thank you. Finally I have one last question. You were asked by
20 my learned friend Mr. Lukic about various lists and numbers, and you
21 replied that you had a list of 97 people who were registered as wounded
22 and subsequently killed in Ovcara. Do you still have that list or do you
23 have that list with you now?
24 A. I still have it.
25 Q. Do you have it in court with you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Before we refer to it, how was the list compiled?
3 A. I received from the ministry, from the organisation of the
4 defenders and mutual solidarity, and I had requested from the missing
5 persons administration it in relation to Colonel Ivan Grujic that on the
6 20th of December 2005, which is when you visited Vukovar, to provide an
7 accurate list, a last one, of persons identified from the mass grave at
8 Ovcara. I realised that you had a list entitled missing persons. And I
9 know that as time goes by, every Monday, more and more bodies are
10 identified because this is an ongoing process. I requested this and asked
11 them to send me a document which I intend to leave in the possession of
12 the Tribunal. There is an attachment specifying the names of 192 persons
13 whose bodies have been identified as executed at Ovcara. At this point I
14 went back to our database, the one that we have discussed. I tracked down
15 names of these same persons and we have managed to come up with a list
16 containing the first and last names of 97 persons. This is the list that
17 we discussed, and I have brought it along with me for my testimony.
18 Q. Would you be kind enough, please, to pass it to the usher? And
19 perhaps if I could just look at it for a moment, please, with the Court's
21 If Your Honours would give me a moment, please.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, clearly it's a document I think that my
24 learned friends have not seen. And I, for my part, feel that it would be
25 an appropriate document for them to see at this stage. We would be
1 seeking to make it an exhibit, at the moment, because it's just recently
2 arrived. It is not in English, there is no translation for it, and it
3 also involves graphs, bar charts, and other material. I, for my part,
4 perhaps would submit that Defence should see it and if there is going to
5 be any argument about it or a course to be adopted, it should be dealt
6 with now. As matters stand, I would submit it is a document that should
7 be made an exhibit, as it goes to a relevant issue in the trial.
8 JUDGE PARKER: I would think that it -- before we go off the
9 screen, 49 line 28, the date is given as 20 December 2005. That must be
11 MR. MOORE: Well, I'm told that it's the 20th of October.
12 JUDGE PARKER: 2005.
13 MR. MOORE: 2005. And if there's an error then the error is not
15 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I'm not concerned as to whose error but to
16 get that right.
17 Now, I would suggest that the document might again be made a
18 document marked for identification.
19 MR. MOORE: Yes.
20 JUDGE PARKER: You would rely for its admission on the evidence
21 which you have adduced from this witness.
22 MR. MOORE: That is correct.
23 JUDGE PARKER: And it should now be made available in due course
24 to the Defence and translated.
25 MR. MOORE: Yes.
1 JUDGE PARKER: And at that point then you can return to the
2 document to tender it as an exhibit, if there are no objections. If there
3 are objections, to have those objections considered and ruled upon.
4 MR. MOORE: Exactly. And Your Honour may remember, and
5 Your Honours may remember that I did indicate at the very outset that
6 there was a documentation which the Defence -- the Prosecution only
7 received last week, or I think it was the previous week, which was being
8 translated. There was a difficulty in relation to the revealing of
9 individuals' names who were still alive and are still alive but nominated
10 as being military-involved on what I will call the Croatian side. And to
11 some extent it overlaps I suspect with this document. So it may have its
12 additional documentation to go with it. But perhaps if I could pass it
13 now to the Defence, with the Court's leave and, as I say, and Your Honour
14 has ruled that perhaps it can be marked for identification and be dealt
15 with later.
16 JUDGE PARKER: I think it could go to the Defence -- ah, are you
17 saying -- I'm not quite sure why it should be right now that we delay
18 while it goes to the Defence. That's my concern.
19 MR. MOORE: Well, there is no need to delay as such. This would
20 be my last topic of re-examination, and it may well be I only do it by way
21 of caution, if there is any matter that should be raised, it should be
22 raised perhaps before Dr. Bosanac would leave the Court.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Well, do make it available now. I'm not sure that
24 it gives the Defence any fair opportunity to examine the document in a few
25 moments. That's why I felt it should now be marked and we simply wait
1 until they have had full time to look at it and you have had a chance to
2 have it translated.
3 MR. MOORE: Certainly.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Then we could deal with the question of its
6 MR. MOORE: Certainly.
7 JUDGE PARKER: I wonder if any Defence counsel disagrees with
8 that? I see nobody disagreeing. Oh, Mr. Lukic?
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just one matter that I would like to
10 raise and I think this is something that concerns all three Defence teams.
11 That has to do with Mr. Moore's tactical approach when it comes to the
12 presentation of this document. If before the examination-in-chief he told
13 us that there was a document that he would later on send to us, and if we
14 concluded our cross-examination in which we raised this issue, then we do
15 not mind this document being marked as for identification. But we do
16 have -- we want to be enabled to cross-examine this witness on the basis
17 of this document, but we need to familiarise ourselves with the document
18 first. And then once we do that, we would then tell the Chamber whether
19 we want Mrs. Bosanac to come back to be examined on that issue alone. We
20 simply cannot comprehend that a document is being introduced now at the
21 end of cross-examination and not two weeks prior to this, only now after
22 the cross-examination is concluded. This is why we would like this
23 document to be given to us so that we can get acquainted with it and then
24 after that, we can tell you whether we want to examine Mrs. Bosanac or
25 perhaps Mr. Grujic on that issue.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. -- Thank you, Mr. Lukic. Yes, Mr.
3 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will be
4 very brief. I have an objection to make. The Prosecution is in
5 possession of this document several days now, and we think that they are
6 not following the instruction of 48 hours. I think that they need to
7 abide by the instructions set by the Trial Chamber. I fully agree with
8 Mr. Lukic. An additional thing I want to raise is that we do not have the
9 translation of this document and we are now denied an opportunity to
10 cross-examine on this very important document. Therefore, we think that
11 it can only be marked for identification; however, not admitted. Thank
13 JUDGE PARKER: I agree, Mr. Borovic. Mr. Vasic? Could I mention
14 before you speak that unless I have misunderstood things, there are two
15 documents, not one. One was mentioned by Mr. Moore before he commenced
16 the evidence of the witness. That was a document which he said had come
17 into his possession, it was being dealt with, and as soon as it could be
18 translated and made available, it would be. This second document is the
19 one which Dr. Bosanac was now produced in court and made available to
20 Mr. Moore. That is being moved, and that was called for in
21 re-examination, because its existence became known to Mr. Moore during
22 cross-examination by Mr. Lukic. It was Mr. Lukic that produced from the
23 witness the information that she had this document containing this -- some
24 97 names. So this is a second document which no one of you, as Defence
25 counsel, nor Mr. Moore as prosecuting counsel, knew about when adducing
1 the evidence. Am I right in that, Mr. Moore?
2 MR. MOORE: Yes, you are.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. So be aware of that.
4 With respect to the first document, Mr. Moore did indicate that
5 when it was translated and could be made available, if there was a need
6 for cross-examination, then, of course, that would need to be dealt with.
7 With this new document, he at the moment wants it to go into evidence, the
8 Chamber has indicated it should only be marked for identification to
9 enable Defence counsel to have a look at it and, if there are difficulties
10 with it, of course, then submissions will be put.
11 I don't know whether that helps you, Mr. Vasic but I thought I
12 would mention that before you made your further submission.
13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honours. The
14 situation you just described now is absolutely clear. I would like to
15 support what my learned friends said. I also need to point out that my
16 learned friend from the Prosecution, in the beginning of the
17 examination-in-chief, stated that he had documents pertaining to the
18 database in relation to the report sent by the Vukovar medical centre
19 concerning the wounded and sick. It seems to me that this document that
20 my learned friend just received from Mrs. Vesna Bosanac corresponds to
21 that same database and represents a part of the documentation mentioned by
22 my learned friend from the Prosecution.
23 At any rate, perhaps the Prosecutor could tell us when he saw this
24 document, was it during the proofing session or was it perhaps only today.
25 But if I remember well, before the examination-in-chief, the Prosecutor
1 told us that the examination-in-chief related to the newly discovered
2 documents would be postponed until later date when the translations were
3 ready and everything else could be prepared. It seems to me that the
4 document we saw today in the courtroom comes from the same batch of
5 documents and pertains to the same topics that my learned friend wanted to
6 examine about at a later date in this trial.
7 Therefore, I think that the comments of Mr. Lukic pertaining to
8 the tactical approach of the Prosecution are very valid, as are his
9 arguments about the need to enable the Defence to cross-examine on these
10 documents, because this is something that is needed in order to ensure a
11 fair trial.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.
13 Mr. Moore?
14 MR. MOORE: Well, thank you very much for the compliments about my
15 tactical approach. Can I just deal with this issue. This document has
16 come as a direct consequence of Mr. Lukic's cross-examination. I was not
17 aware of this document. I noticed Mr. Lukic, having been told that the
18 list existed, did not ask to see it. Therefore I asked for it to be shown
19 in re-examination.
20 I have indicated at the very outset of the trial that Dr. Bosanac
21 had brought documentation which was documents that needed to be translated
22 for everyone and there had been agreement between Prosecution and Defence
23 that that should be deferred until the translation had been concluded and
24 at an appropriate time for all parties. I do not know what this document
25 says. Some of it is in B/C/S. Some of it relates to names, and I suspect
1 diagnosis, and I suspect it is a compilation but I'm guessing. I suspect
2 it is a compilation of documents that have been received or information
3 received by Dr. Bosanac, and the database that existed at the hospital.
4 But I can take it no further than that. All I'm submitting is, in
5 re-examination I'm entitled to ask questions if a topic has arisen in
6 cross-examination. The topic that arose here was that Dr. Bosanac said
7 that she had a list to say that there was 97 people who were registered as
8 wounded and killed at Ovcara. In my submission, that is a relevant issue.
9 I have not tried to circumvent any rules. I have not tried to circumvent
10 any rulings. I am quite happy to accommodate my learned friends as much
11 as I possibly can. But there are two distinct criteria here: One, am I
12 entitled to re-examine on the topic; the answer, I would submit, is yes.
13 Two, if it's marked for identification, I have no problems in relation to
15 But to make suggestions that I have behaved improperly is not
16 correct. And I'm disappointed my learned friends should make such
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, the Chamber's appreciation is that it
19 was not clear to Defence counsel that there were two documents or that
20 this was one that you had not previously seen and were unaware of. And I
21 think that explains entirely their concerns and their submissions. And I
22 am sure that, the position having been made clear, that that has cleared
23 the air so to speak. The Chamber has grasped what you say. The Chamber,
24 though, has taken the view that it should not yet be exhibited but merely
25 marked for identification precisely to enable the Defence to have proper
1 time to consider the document and the question then of its admissibility
2 or not can be considered in due course. Not today.
3 We are well conscious that it may unfortunately be necessary for
4 the doctor to return to give evidence about the first list which you
5 mentioned, which you say she brought with her --
6 MR. MOORE: Yes.
7 JUDGE PARKER: -- and, regrettable as that is, nevertheless it may
8 be necessary for us to impose on the doctor to come again. That being so,
9 there may arise an opportunity, if you pursue the tendering of this
10 document, or should the Defence wish, to look at the question of whether
11 cross-examination and examination on this further document should be
12 allowed as a departure from the ordinary procedure. And we will certainly
13 consider that if either Prosecution or the Defence wish to proceed along
14 that route when there has been time to look at this further document and
15 assess it in light of what else is known. So all of that will remain for
16 the future.
17 MR. MOORE: Certainly.
18 JUDGE PARKER: At the moment, the document -- does it bear a date
19 or a heading that we can readily identify it?
20 MR. MOORE: It has a date which seems to be the 20th of October.
21 There seems to be a reference of 519/08/05/2. And the recipient is
22 Dr. Vesna Bosanac, and the signature is a ministry signature from Zagreb,
23 and it seems to be Grujic, Grujic. And for completeness it appears to be
24 a list of 192 names with dates of birth, and I suspect locations of birth.
25 Then another chart that seems to be compiled with 97 names, dates of
1 birth, names and, I suspect, diagnoses. And then added to it are a number
2 of what I will call bar charts in B/C/S, and the document will remain as
3 one. It is clear that someone has done an analysis.
4 JUDGE PARKER: The document you describe will be received, marked
5 only for identification.
6 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be number 47.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And you will provide copies of that to
10 the Defence and translations of it as soon as is practicable.
11 MR. MOORE: Yes, we will.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And you will provide the original now,
13 please, to the Registry so that there can be a copy of it now put into the
14 record. You will then get it back for the purpose of copying, et cetera.
15 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much, indeed.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something?
17 JUDGE PARKER: You have a question, do you?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I would like to clarify
19 something concerning this document. I received from the ministry the
20 letter that was just admitted here, and an enclosure containing a list of
21 192 identified persons killed in Ovcara. This chart and a graph that were
22 enclosed came from the analysis that we conducted at the hospital where we
23 compared the list of those killed and identified in Ovcara and the
24 database that Mr. Moore spoke of earlier. I thought that this
25 clarification would be useful.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, doctor. I think we can leave it at
2 that, and it will be a question for later whether further questioning
3 about this document is necessary and appropriate.
4 Are there any further questions, Mr. Moore?
5 MR. MOORE: There are no further questions, thank you very much.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Doctor, for the moment, I'm glad to be able to tell
7 you that concludes the course of evidence. As you have understood, it may
8 become necessary for you to be called back to deal with these further
9 issues. When -- whether that will occur and when it may be, I can't tell
10 you at the moment. May we, though, thank you for coming. We appreciate
11 you had the difficulty of travelling with an injury, and we thank you for
12 your assistance.
13 We will, I think, rise now. It will be a convenient time for a
14 break. And that will enable the doctor, then, to leave the Court. I did
15 mention on Friday that as this was the first day of late sittings, we
16 would adjourn earlier as a gentle break-in for everybody to the new times,
17 but tomorrow, prepare to sit through until 7.00.
18 Today, at a time convenient, around 6.15, we will adjourn for the
20 We will resume now at 5.15.
21 --- Break taken at 4.56 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 5.19 p.m.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Is it Mrs. Tuma that will be taking this witness?
24 MS. TUMA: Yes, Your Honour, that's correct.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. If we could have the next witness,
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please take the card that is given to you
6 and read the affirmation aloud.
7 WITNESS: BINAZIJA KOLESAR
8 [Witness answered through interpreter].
9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
10 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
12 Mrs. Tuma will ask you some questions.
13 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Examined by Ms. Tuma:
15 Q. Mrs. Kolesar my apologies for making you wait a couple of hours
16 before starting this afternoon's session and are you comfortable?
17 A. I am.
18 Q. Ms. Kolesar, what kind of profession do you have?
19 THE INTERPRETER: Would counsel please speak into the microphone?
20 MS. TUMA: Thank you for this. I'm learning.
21 Q. Mrs. Kolesar could you please tell us in the courtroom what kind
22 of profession you have?
23 A. I'm a retired nurse.
24 Q. And when did you retire?
25 A. I retired in 1996.
1 Q. And can you please tell us about your educational background?
2 When you were trained in your profession?
3 A. Following secondary school, I went to a three-year medical school
4 for nurses.
5 Q. When was -- when did you examine as a nurse?
6 A. In 1961.
7 Q. And where was it?
8 A. I completed the medical school for nurses in Osijek, and I have
9 worked in the hospital in Vukovar since 1961.
10 Q. And in what capacity? You were working as a nurse but was there a
11 specific capacity you were working in the Vukovar -- the hospital Vukovar?
12 A. I worked as a registered, meaning senior, nurse. From 1962 to
13 1991 I was head nurse in the surgical ward.
14 Q. Who was your superior in your -- in the surgery ward? Now we are
15 talking about 1991 from the fall, spring, summer, and fall 1991.
16 A. From 1988 and on, Dr. Mladen Ivankovic was head of the surgical
18 Q. Who was the director of the hospital in -- during the spring of
19 1991 and was it changed later on, and what time, and how was the change
21 A. In 1991, Dr. Rade Popovic was director of the hospital. In the
22 course of the summer, either in June or in July, a change occurred.
23 Dr. Popovic was no longer the director, but, rather, Dr. Vesna Bosanac was
24 appointed director.
25 Q. Do you happen to know the reason for the change of director of the
2 A. No, no. This had nothing to do with my work. It did not affect
3 my work in any way, this change of director, and I couldn't tell you the
4 real reason for that.
5 Q. How many nurses were you supervising, Mrs. Kolesar, when you were
6 working as a chief nurse? Now we are talking about spring, summer, and
7 autumn of 1991, just to make us to show your capacity as a chief nurse.
8 A. The job of the head nurse in the surgical ward was to control and
9 educate medical staff or, rather, to monitor and educate the medical staff
10 and janitors. There were about 100 nurses and about 25 janitors or
11 cleaning ladies. In addition, there were also medical technicians who
12 worked in the surgical ward as plaster technicians or they worked in the
13 clinic itself.
14 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kolesar. I will move on and ask you to describe
15 just briefly about the setup of the hospital in peace time and, let us
16 say, before May 1991. How many beds could the hospital take for the total
17 number of patients at the time? Now we are talking about before May 1991.
18 A. The hospital had about 400 to 450 beds. Perhaps 420 would be the
19 most accurate figure. It had almost all wards, paediatrics, neurology,
20 psychiatry, surgery, gynaecology, so all wards were represented. We also
21 had full diagnostical capabilities and the full capacity of the hospital
22 was 450 patients. All wards operated normally. The hospital was very
23 well equipped. One part of it was new, the other part was renovated, and
24 the work was conducted absolutely normally. The hospital was part of the
25 medical centre. The medical centre included health clinics which provided
1 primary health care. So the total number of employed staff members in the
2 entire medical centre was 900 to 950.
3 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kolesar. When it comes to the ethnicity of
4 patients and medical staff, were there any kind of differences or was it a
5 mixture or was it any kind was prevailing the other sort of ethnicity
6 amongst the patients and the medical staff at this time?
7 A. It made absolutely no difference what the ethnic background of a
8 patient was. There were no problems with the personnel. All of us worked
9 together. One couldn't say that there were more people of this ethnic
10 background than that ethnic background. Perhaps there were more Serb
11 doctors, but as for the other staff members, they were all equally
12 represented. One couldn't tell that one ethnic group dominated.
13 Q. And what was your, as a chief nurse at the hospital, and
14 supervising other nurses, the principle that guided your work as a nurse
15 towards the patients? What kind -- what treatment did you give the
16 patients? When there any differences when it comes to ethnicity in that
18 A. There is no such principle known to the science of medicine and
19 the same applies to nurses. Doctors take an oath and the same treatment
20 is accorded everyone and the same applies to nurses. All patients are
21 always treated equally. The staff, too, are treated equally regardless of
22 their position. This is the guiding principle in all hospitals, I should
23 assume. As for the medical staff, I appreciated honest, hard-working
25 Q. And was it also regardless of what kind of conditions the staff,
1 medical staff, was working under?
2 A. The same thing. There were no better or worse conditions, as it
3 were. There were some jobs that were perhaps a bit easier and some that
4 were a bit more difficult, but this in no way was affected by the ethnic
6 Q. Thank, Mrs. Kolesar. I suppose you're aware of an event that
7 happened on the 2nd May 1991, when some Croat policemen were killed. Did
8 that event create any kind of differences in the setup of the hospital or
9 personnel and patients?
10 A. It is certain that the 2nd May of 1992 very much affected
11 everything that from then on happened in town, not to the same extent in
12 the hospital, I would say, with the possible exception of our surgery
13 ward. After the 2nd of May, they always had to be prepared to admit a
14 certain number of wounded on any given day. Up to that point, we had no
15 special beds that were awaiting wounded people. On the 2nd of May we had
16 to start improvising and start discharging patients that were nearing full
17 recovery, in order to make room for the wounded police officers and
18 wounded civilians alike.
19 Q. Did it have any special affect on the kind of patients --
20 A. This certainly affected both ethnic groups. Everybody who was on
21 their way to the surgery ward was having second thoughts. Do I really
22 have to go there? Is this really necessary? There was a lot of confusion
23 about town and no one was certain what would happen, whether the JNA
24 attacks would continue or not. At any rate, the entire hospital was fully
25 operational and this includes all the wards, with the exception of the
1 surgery ward. They had to have a certain number of beds available and a
2 greater number of doctors and nurses available for emergencies and for any
3 wounded people coming in.
4 Q. The crisis committee, Mrs. Kolesar, can you please describe what
5 that is? And when it -- what it was and when it was set up and for what
7 A. The Crisis Staff was established as early as the month of May or
8 perhaps early June. Its purpose was to prepare the hospital to admit a
9 greater number of patients than was the norm. Of course, the hospital had
10 more beds than were being used but the question was, were these adequate
11 conditions? For example, if there was an attack against the hospital and
12 work became impossible in the surgical theatres, they had to be moved
13 elsewhere where they could continue to operate normally. The purpose of
14 the Crisis Staff was to provide a make shift facility to provide
15 sufficient staff and to provide supplies in terms of water, electricity,
16 medicine, everything you need to treat a patient. The Crisis Staff
17 comprised the chief of surgery, the director, the chief nurse, the chief
18 nurse of the surgery ward, and all the chiefs of all the departments that
19 were deemed to be helpful in this emergency.
20 Q. What were at the time in May 1991, any kind of preparation so to
21 say made in the hospital in order to facilitate if there should be any
22 ongoing attacks on the silty itself and that could have any kind of
23 impacts on the hospital as such?
24 A. When the new wing of the hospital was built back in 1975 or 1976,
25 one of the conditions imposed was that an atomic shelter should be built.
1 Therefore the hospital had ha atomic shelter and this was a safe area. It
2 was never used and it was never maintained. It was never meant to be used
3 for medical work until Borovo Selo happened. It was at this point that
4 during the summer, that means in June, July and August, the atomic shelter
5 was redone in a manner of speaking so that it could be used by both
6 doctors and patients but it only had four small rooms with some auxiliary
7 rooms. There was a -- there was a surgical theatre and a room used by
8 duty doctors. We set up equipment in the basement, and this was now the
9 room where operations were performed and intensive care administered.
10 This was a matter of necessity. In addition to that, there were sporadic
11 attacks by the JNA on Vukovar throughout the summer and we at the Crisis
12 Staff worked out a detailed plan of how the wounded would be evacuated
13 from the wards into the atomic shelter. The two buildings were connected
14 by an underground corridor. Midway down the corridor was the door to the
15 atomic shelter. Therefore all the wards that were on the first and second
16 floor had priority in being evacuated. The ground floor came last.
17 Unfortunately, there was an attack that occurred about the 15th of August,
18 an attack on Vukovar, and this was a test, as it were, on how the atomic
19 shelter would be used in the future. All the patients were taken to the
20 atomic shelter and, once the attack was over, they were returned to their
21 respective wards.
22 Q. I thank you, Mrs. Kolesar. I will now move on to show to the
23 Court and also to the parties here a chart that has been disclosed to the
24 Defence as well, and that is a description of the hospital so that we all
25 know that we are talking about and what kind of -- so all can see when
1 Mrs. Kolesar is made a reference to the atomic shelter or the corridor so
2 we know what we are talking about here.
3 And that is a chart with an ERN number 04639058, for the Court
4 officer, and I guess it also has been disclosed to the Defence as well.
5 Have everyone access and also the witness access on the screen to
6 that document?
7 A. I can see it. I have it.
8 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, do you recognise this drawing?
9 A. Yes, of course I do.
10 Q. And why?
11 A. This is an expromptu drawing which represents the hospital
12 buildings. You can see the road and you can see the Danube. You can even
13 see the connecting corridor running between the new building and the
14 so-called old building of the hospital.
15 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mrs. Kolesar. Who has made this
17 A. I did.
18 Q. And when was that?
19 A. Some days ago.
20 Q. That's correct.
21 MS. TUMA: And I will just give information for the Defence and
22 for the Court that this drawing was made by Mrs. Kolesar during the
23 proofing the other day, last week.
24 And it's not signed. I would like to add that. But it has been
25 identified by Mrs. Kolesar as done by her. And I would like later on to
1 admit this into evidence.
2 Q. Mrs. Kolesar now we move on to give us, please, a description of
3 the hospital. We have been earlier talking about the old building, the
4 new building and the corridor and atomic shelter. Can you please show on
5 this drawing the different kinds of parts of the hospital that you have
6 been talking about? Can anyone show the witness how she will do that,
7 please? Thank you so much.
8 A. This is an amateur drawing, but I hope that we can use it to
9 clarify the respective positions of everybody involved, where people
10 worked and where people stayed. I'm listening.
11 Q. Thank you. You were talking about the atomic shelter. Can you
12 please show on this chart where the atomic shelter were located?
13 JUDGE THELIN: Excuse me, there would be a paper copy and we could
14 put it on the overhead perhaps, and see where the pointings are made?
15 MS. TUMA: Yes, we have paper copies as well. Yes. Okay. Thank
16 you for that, Your Honour.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The atomic shelter is actually
18 between the two buildings, between the so-called old hospital and the
19 so-called new hospital. It's linked to an underground corridor connecting
20 the two buildings.
21 It's between the new section and the old section of the hospital.
22 There is an underground corridor that connects the two buildings. There
23 is an entrance and it comprises four large rooms and several smaller rooms
24 used for storage for keeping supplies, or even for cooking meals. There
25 are two lavatories included.
1 Q. And the old building and the new building that you mentioned
2 earlier, can you show on the chart where the new building and where the
3 old billing is?
4 A. This is the old building, and to the left is the new building.
5 Q. And the corridor that is connecting the old and the new building,
6 can you please show that, Mrs. Kolesar?
7 A. It's right here. I'll underline it. The size here on this sketch
8 does not correspond with its actual size on the spot, but it more or less
9 represents the situation.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you. Can you please also Mrs. Kolesar show us the
11 whole hospital area, if there were any gates into the hospital area from
12 any kind of road.
13 A. The entire hospital area is made up of an area leading from the
14 road to a parking lot in front of the hospital, and then you have the main
15 entrance with the reception area. If you take this entrance, you're able
16 to access all the wards and all the rooms of the hospital. Across the
17 yard, you have a section which is also adjacent to a road. Here again
18 there is an entrance to the hospital. There is a roundabout here which
19 can easily be accessed by an ambulance and patients requiring urgent
20 assistance can be transported to the hospital more expeditiously.
21 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mrs. Kolesar. You just mentioned across the
22 yard. Where is the yard in the hospital area? Can you please mark that?
23 A. It is actually between the two buildings, the old and the new, and
24 it extends to an area which is behind the new building.
25 Q. Thank you. And the emergency exit? Where is that located on the
1 chart, please?
2 A. The emergency exit was only here in the surgery ward. That was
3 the only one. I am marking it now.
4 Q. Okay. Thank you.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The surgery clinic, interpreter's correction.
6 MS. TUMA: We can put the map or the chart aside and we can go
7 back to the chart later on in the examination-in-chief. Thank you, Mrs.
8 Kolesar. This was for a description for the parties in order to have some
9 idea of, and also for myself, how the setup of the hospital were at the
11 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, when started the real attack on Vukovar city? When
12 was that?
13 A. I think it coincided with the 2nd of May, although that was an
14 event of local significance and only a handful of police officers were
15 attacked. However, from that time on, the JNA vehicles were continually
16 in motion leaving the barracks and going, for example, to Borovo Selo. So
17 we would come across many of those although they had not yet started
18 firing and pounding us, but their presence was permanent. And then in
19 June or July, there were sporadic attacks.
20 I'm no military expert myself, but it certainly seemed that the
21 attacks were being launched either from a ship on the Danube or from
22 across the Danube, from the opposite river bank, because that's what the
23 impacts indicated, the way the houses that were hit were hit. For
24 example, today I see a building it's intact. The next morning I go to
25 work and I see that these same buildings have in the meantime been
1 destroyed which started changing the cityscape. The first major attacks
2 happened in Borovo Selo. There were several major attacks especially in
3 July and August. And the wounded that were -- that started coming in at
4 the time were coming in from Borovo Naselje.
5 Q. Okay. Mrs. Kolesar you're talking about the major attacks in June
6 and July. Was it other attacks than the city itself? Were there other
7 areas that were targeted as well, according to your knowledge?
8 A. Of course. The neighbouring villages must have been targeted too,
9 I assume, because at a later date I saw that they had been destroyed. I'm
10 not sure about the timing but if we are talking about the town and its
11 surroundings, I'm mentioning Borovo Naselje, I can also mention Luzac.
12 Throughout the summer, I can't say there were daily attacks but there
13 certainly were attacks occurring every now and then. What were the
14 reasons behind these attacks and what had prompted them is not something
15 that I can judge.
16 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, you just mentioned some villages in the
17 neighbourhood of Vukovar city. How far away from Vukovar city were those
18 villages located?
19 A. The largest settlement in the surroundings of Vukovar is the town
20 of Ilok and the distance between Vukovar and Ilok is 35 kilometres. It
21 was part of Vukovar municipality, and needless to say, the people of Ilok
22 went to Vukovar to receive medical treatment. They only had a local
23 health centre there. All the other villages Opatovac, Stompajvci [phoen],
24 Tolonik [phoen], and so on and so forth were a little closer, distances
25 being 9 kilometres, 20 kilometres and so on and so forth.
1 On the opposite side you had Borovo Selo, the distance being
2 perhaps nine or ten kilometres or not even that much. Trpinja was very
3 close. Brsadin was 8 or 9 kilometres, Petrovci, 9, Negoslavci likewise.
4 They all went to the Vukovar Hospital to receive medical treatment.
5 Q. All those -- do I understand you right, Mrs. Kolesar, when you --
6 do you mean that all those villages or cities you were mentioning right
7 now, they were -- that they were all shelled throughout June and July 1991
8 and that the hospital received wounded patients from those areas?
9 A. Let me give you an example. The wounded from Novi Cakovci there
10 had been an attack at some point in the summer. They came in, they were
11 wounded, and they were all civilians. About five or six persons were
12 admitted. They managed to reach the Vukovar Hospital at this early stage.
13 Q. During this time frame, June and July 1991, was the hospital
14 itself attacked at any point in the summer 1991?
15 A. Yes. I was just about to say that. The section with the surgical
16 theatres had been targeted from the Danube, from the river. The buildings
17 were in danger. They had not caved in yet but several shells landed on
18 the hospital roof.
19 Q. At this time, June, July we are talking about, was there any
20 marking of the hospital?
21 A. We are talking about the month of July. The hospital was marked.
22 Q. In what way, then, and where, please?
23 A. It was marked. There was a huge red cross out in the yard. Given
24 the fact, though, that the new building was very tall, it wasn't possible
25 to place the cross on top of the building. So the Red Cross was placed on
1 the roof of the infection ward, which was a little bit lower than the
2 surrounding buildings. One thing is for sure, however. The hospital was
3 visibly marked. One mark being out on the lawn between the two buildings
4 and the other being on the roof of the infection ward.
5 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, you have on your right-hand the chart that you were
6 so kind enough to draw the other day so we can see it more clearly. Can
7 you please show on that chart where the marking of the hospital was at the
9 A. The marking was at the parking lot. It was a concrete area behind
10 the new building. The other sign was on the roof of the infection ward
12 Q. Would you say that those markings were clearly visible?
13 A. I assume they had been arranged in such a way as to be clearly
14 visible. The people whose job it was to put those up seemed certain that
15 they would be sufficient to clearly mark the hospital.
16 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kolesar.
17 MS. TUMA: We can leave the chart for a moment again. And then I
18 would like to move on to the time period between August and up to
20 Q. During this time frame, were you living in the city of Vukovar or
21 were you at any point of time moving into the hospital?
22 A. I live in the town of Vukovar itself, close to the centre of town.
23 I made these daily trips to the hospital from my home, from where I live.
24 I went to work every day regardless of what I was seeing along the way on
25 a daily basis, things being demolished, houses destroyed that used to be
1 in perfect condition. We continued to go to work all the way until the
2 25th of August when this changed. On the 25th of August, the town itself
3 was subjected to a heavy aviation attack. Lots of wounded started
4 streaming into the hospital. All the wounded from all the other wards had
5 been taken to the atomic shelter or to the hospital basement. Until the
6 20th of November not a single wounded person and not a single bed were
7 ever returned to any of the wards. Between the 25th of August and the
8 20th of November, all the hospital tasks were performed in the basement,
9 in the underground corridors and in the atomic shelter.
10 Q. What part of the hospital was not able to be in use due to the
11 attacks? And was that from a specific point in time?
12 A. Well, from that time on, from the 25th of August onwards, the
13 staff working there and the patients were facing grave danger, and
14 operations were no longer performed in the surgery ward. For a while,
15 these continued in the gynaecology ward on the first floor but that too
16 became dangerous after a while because all the window panes had been
17 shattered and there was no way to keep the room sterile. From the very
18 beginning of the aggression against Vukovar, but more specifically from
19 late August onwards, those could no longer be used. We used the equipment
20 from those rooms but we no longer used the rooms themselves.
21 Q. Okay. Mrs. Kolesar, you just mentioned that on the 25th of
22 August, there was an aviation attack. Can you tell us more about that and
23 about how that affected the people, and if you could see any consequences
24 in your -- in terms of your profession as a nurse at the hospital? Were
25 there civilians or people coming into the hospital as wounded? Can you
1 tell us more about that, please?
2 A. The attack on the 25th was extremely fierce. A very large number
3 of civilians were killed because they were not prepared for something like
4 that. So I can say that this attack surprised both them and us. Later
5 on, the people start living the so-called basement lives. Everybody hid
6 in their own neighbourhoods where they could find shelter in their
7 basements and so on. Therefore, later on, even though the attacks became
8 even more fierce, fewer civilians were injured or killed because people
9 became more careful. They stopped using their houses and they only used
10 the basement areas and practically lived underground. The wounded could
11 be brought to the hospital in our hospital vehicles. We still had water
12 and electric supply, and, if our ambulances went to the spot, they would
13 bring the wounded back to the hospital. Sometimes the wounded would be
14 transported in private vehicles.
15 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, on the 25th of August you just mentioned that there
16 was a large number of civilians that was wounded and killed. Do you have
17 today any kind of recollection how many, about, patients were coming to
18 the hospital on that day?
19 A. Definitely 30 to 40, definitely 30 to 40 people were wounded.
20 What I'm trying to say is that all of these people received treatment in
21 our hospital. They were all admitted into hospital. The advantage at the
22 time was that the roads leading to Vinkovci and their hospital were still
23 open so one could travel through Bogdanovci, Marinci, Nustar, and reach
24 Vinkovci. We treated the seriously wounded and operated on them and did
25 everything we could but we also evacuated them so as not to subject them
1 to the conditions that I described, meaning living in the atomic shelter
2 and improvised areas. That in turn enable us to be ready for the influx
3 of new patients.
4 Q. Okay. Thank you. Mrs. Kolesar you just mentioned 30 to 40
5 patients that got to the hospital on the 25th of August 1991. Were
6 they -- what kind of people were they, the 30 to 40 people that arrived to
7 the hospital on the 25th of August?
8 A. Normal, scared and wounded people. There were children among
9 them, women, senior men and women. Just residents of Vukovar.
10 Q. Normal civilians, people, then, was it so?
11 A. Civilians, yes. Most of them were civilians. I can't say whether
12 there was among them perhaps a uniformed defender or somebody else. They
13 were also sometimes wounded and for us they were just regular patients.
14 Anybody who was wounded at any time, any member of any army, was admitted
15 and treated just like any other patient. The treatment that civilians or
16 any other uniformed persons received was absolutely identical.
17 Q. Okay. Thank you. And earlier you mentioned here, Mrs. Kolesar,
18 that you went -- you travelled between your home and the hospital. Was
19 there any time that you couldn't do that and, if so, why?
20 A. Since my house is near the hospital, I normally went on foot.
21 After the 25th of August, perhaps occasionally I could have gone home when
22 there were fewer attacks and so on, but my presence at the hospital was
23 necessary because it was questionable whether we would be able to return
24 to the hospital if we went home. There was that possibility that, due to
25 attacks, we would be unable to go back to work in the hospital, and this
1 pertained not only to me but to all other staff members who lived in
2 Vukovar and elsewhere.
3 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, on your daily walks between your home and the
4 hospital before you moved so to say to the hospital, what did you see
5 around you in the morning and in the afternoon or in the evening when you
6 were walking between, and what changes do you see during those days when
7 you were looking around on your daily walk so to say between your house
8 and the hospital?
9 A. En route, every day, one could see new destruction. What I wish
10 to say is that one could be injured while en route. More and more
11 buildings were destroyed. The road was also damaged, hit. One day, the
12 drivers tried to drive me home and it was almost impossible to drive on
13 the road leading to my house because of all the potholes caused by shells,
14 bombs and so on. Therefore, all of the roads were damaged and it was very
15 difficult to drive to the hospital or anywhere else from one part of the
16 town to the other one, because of the damaged roads. Likewise, it was
17 very difficult to transport the wounded, because of these roads. As for
18 the houses, there were daily new destructions.
19 Q. How about -- how was the medical staff? Could they -- were they
20 compelled, so to say, any point in time to move to the hospital or could
21 they, as you, Mrs. Kolesar, walk between or travel between the home and
22 the hospital? And how about their families?
23 A. Most of the nurses and even doctors, naturally, wanted to spend
24 the night in their own homes, under normal circumstances. Their children,
25 spouses, families, lived in basements. They went home because their
1 shifts would be such that they worked for 24 hours and then were free for
2 24 hours. Therefore, they didn't need to spend that free time in the
3 hospital. If it was possible, they went back home, but we also needed to
4 be sure that they would be able to come back to the hospital when they
5 needed -- when we needed them. And this was the system that was in place
6 up until September, and every morning we would be awaiting the arrival of
7 our staff. We also had to draw up new schedule, depending on who arrived
8 to work that day. And this applied both to nurses and to the cooks,
9 cleaning ladies and so on. We needed to make sure that all of the work
10 could be performed. Therefore, this system was in place up until the end
11 of September when it became almost impossible to anybody to go home,
12 except for the people who lived right next to the hospital.
13 Q. And why was this so, Mrs. Kolesar?
14 A. This was so because new destruction was continuously inflicted on
15 the city. It was impossible for these people to spend time in their
16 apartments or in their houses. There was no safety for them, or, rather,
17 they felt safe only when they had their families with them. As a result
18 of that, five, six, or ten nurses brought their children to the hospital,
19 aged between 2 and, say, 15 years. So for me personally, it was easier to
20 make a roster and to organise the work.
21 Q. During this time frame when we are talking about August and
22 November, when it comes to patients that got to the hospital, that were
23 wounded, how many patients at an average, every day, would you recall that
24 received treatment or went to the hospital in order to be treated?
25 A. On average, we had about 30 wounded persons. There were days when
1 we had ten and there also were days when we had 80 of them. It all
2 depended on the ferocity of the JNA attacks, either aviation attacks or
3 shelling attacks. So there were different days when there were days when
4 we could treat somebody efficiently and quickly, and there were such days
5 when it was impossible to provide immediate assistance to all 80 of the
6 wounded. We had to do triage. We had to give priority to those who were
7 most seriously wounded. However, everybody received treatment in the
8 conditions that prevailed at the time. Not a single person was left
9 unattended. Everybody received a tetanus shot or an antibiotic or was
10 operated on. After that, we placed them in the rooms that we used.
11 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kolesar. When it comes to those average of 30
12 wounded a day about, what kinds of nationalities were there amongst those
13 people and what kind of people were there? Were there civilians or were
14 there armed soldiers? Can you tell us about that, please?
15 A. Most of them were civilians but, naturally, there were wounded
16 defenders. That was unavoidable. There was no other hospital that they
17 could have gone to. So this hospital was open both for civilians and
18 wounded defenders.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. Up until the 19th of October, we had organised convoys which
21 enabled us to send away some of the wounded. So, while the road through
22 the cornfields was still open, we were able to transport elsewhere the
23 most seriously wounded persons. And the last occasion when such persons
24 were evacuated was on the 19th of October when we evacuated 120 severely
25 wounded persons. That in turn enabled us to admit new patients.
1 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kolesar. We will come to that in a while.
2 How was the conditions in the hospital? How was -- was there any
3 changes in the conditions, working conditions, in the hospital, due to the
4 attacks on the hospital itself? Could you perform surgery? Were there
5 water? Were there electricity? Were there medicine and food for the
7 A. In September, in early September, and up until mid-September, we
8 still had normal supply of electricity and water. Following that, we had
9 neither electricity nor water. Electricity came from a generator, and
10 water came from water supplies. Our water reserve contained 12.000 litres
11 of water. We used that for our daily work and then we needed to refill
12 it. So in order to have a steady supply of water, we had to constantly
13 bring in or transport water. The main assistance in that regard was
14 provided by the firemen who used their cisterns to transport water for us.
15 The water was placed in water depots and we used approximately two and a
16 half thousand litres of water a day in order to prepare food, wash
17 laundry, to wash patients and to perform surgeries. Electricity was
18 supplied by generators. We received some generators from the Borovo
19 factory. We never had to suspend any surgeries due to lack of water or
20 electricity. So we had to ensure that we had sufficient quantities of
21 laundry water in order to have normal sanitary conditions, and enough
22 electricity in order to conduct operations.
23 A. These were certainly not normal working conditions. I don't know
24 if you can imagine daily life of so many people under such circumstances.
25 When we had only the minimum needed to ensure sanitary conditions. We had
1 to make sure that what we feed them was not poisonous, that it was not
2 contagious. We had to make sure that lavatories operated in normal
3 conditions. We had to make sure that our patients had beds that were
4 clean enough.
5 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kolesar.
6 MS. TUMA: I think we can end there for today.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mrs. Tuma. As you realised we reached
8 the time when we were to adjourn today. We will resume tomorrow at 2.15.
9 Mrs. Kolesar, I must ask you if you would return tomorrow to
10 continue your evidence at 2.15 in the afternoon. Thank you very much.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.20 p.m., to
12 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 1st day of November,
13 2005, at 2.15 p.m.