Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1179

1 Monday, 7 November 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.26 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. I would apologise for everybody

7 that we were late in starting because the computer system is giving

8 difficulties. As you may be aware, it is still not fully functioning and

9 we hope we can manage to continue while the technical people are

10 attempting to correct the problem.

11 May I remind you of the affirmation you made at the beginning of

12 your evidence, which still applies.

13 WITNESS: WITNESS P-013 [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma?

16 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour. Good afternoon everybody and

17 we will continue with the testimony of the witness, and this witness is a

18 protective-measures witness, so to say. I would like when we start to be

19 in private session, please.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

21 MS. TUMA: Thank you.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1180

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the morning of the 20th, between

14 6.00 and 7.00, an order came through for all of us who were in the

15 hospital explicitly for those slightly wounded and all the others to leave

16 the hospital building. There was panic among the people. We started

17 leaving the building. At the exit, there were a lot of soldiers and

18 Major Sljivancanin was among them. At the door, there was a soldier whose

19 name was Nikola Dukic --

20 MS. TUMA: [Microphone not activated]

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Ms. Tuma, please.

22 MS. TUMA: Sorry. Thank you.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Why is that necessary for private session,

24 Mrs. Tuma?

25 MS. TUMA: In order, while she is defining, mentioning names, it

Page 1181

1 could be in the long run to be --

2 JUDGE PARKER: It depends whose name it is and is there a problem

3 with this soldier?

4 MS. TUMA: Could be.

5 JUDGE PARKER: The soldier is not a protected witness.

6 MS. TUMA: No.

7 JUDGE PARKER: I would not think there is justification for

8 private session.

9 MS. TUMA: Okay. Thank you.

10 Q. Please continue.

11 A. This soldier stood at the exit separating men from women. Men

12 were leaving on one side, that was to the left as you enter the hospital,

13 and the women went to the right. At this same exit, I did not know where

14 to go. I just stopped right there. I was standing a few feet behind

15 Major Sljivancanin. My husband was led away. There were buses waiting

16 for them already. He got on to one of those buses and that was -- that

17 was the last I saw of him.

18 Q. Thank you. In the morning, you were mentioning at 6.00 to 7.00,

19 where were you in the morning when this order came where you were told to

20 leave the hospital?

21 A. There were perhaps about a dozen of us sleeping in a room. We

22 were lying on the ground. There were mattresses that we were using and we

23 slept there. Then the order came so we packed in a rush, not that we had

24 many things to pack anyway, a few personal belongings, and then we left

25 the hospital, or, rather, the hospital building. We passed through a long

Page 1182

1 corridor. It was some sort of a basement, not quite underground but some

2 sort of a basement.

3 Q. Thank you. You said here that the order came that you should

4 pack. In what way? Who gave that order to you and the rest of the people

5 who were in that room on the mattresses?

6 A. Soldiers were out in the corridor and they were telling people to

7 get out.

8 Q. What kind of soldiers?

9 A. Soldiers in JNA uniforms.

10 Q. Were there anyone you could recognise amongst those soldiers?

11 A. Not in the hospital itself, but outside the hospital.

12 Q. Now we are just talking about in the morning when the order came,

13 so -- and then you mentioned that you saw a soldier came, soldiers came.

14 And my question is if you could recognise any of those soldiers who gave

15 the orders that you should pack.

16 A. As for those who entered the building to tell us that we should

17 get out, I did not recognise any of those, no.

18 Q. Do you know from whom the order came from? Who ordered to pack?

19 A. It was quite clear that Major Sljivancanin was in charge and

20 giving orders. He was giving all the orders and they were obeying him.

21 Q. And in terms of this specific order that you should pack and leave

22 the hospital, was he the one who gave that order? Were you in that

23 impression?

24 A. That was my impression, yes. I didn't hear him from him directly,

25 but who else could have given that order if it hadn't been him who was

Page 1183

1 standing outside the hospital? He was the one that people went to for

2 instructions because he was the one who was there in charge.

3 Q. Did you see him around in the morning when this specific event

4 took place, when you were told to pack and to leave the hospital? Just in

5 the beginning of the morning, just on that phase of the day, so to say.

6 A. At the very exit of the building, there was Major Sljivancanin.

7 He was talking to a man in white, most probably someone from one of the

8 international missions. I don't speak English but I speak Croatian. That

9 man demanded that a list be made with all the people who were being taken

10 away and boarded on to buses. However, this gentleman did not authorise

11 that and I quote, I think this is exactly what he told him. He

12 said, "Sir, listen, this country belongs to me and I am the one giving

13 orders here. When I come to your country I will submit myself to whatever

14 you say." And he refused to allow for those people to be listed. That is

15 why those people were taken away without previously being recorded on

16 lists. They were taken to those buses, including my husband who is still

17 missing.

18 Q. Did you hear this?

19 A. Yes. I heard it with my own ears. I was standing three feet

20 perhaps behind Major Sljivancanin, behind his back.

21 Q. At this particular event, did Sljivancanin introduce him in a

22 specific way? Did you hear anything about that, to the man in white?

23 A. Yes. He said his name was Major Sljivancanin. He did say that.

24 I wouldn't have known that it was him if I hadn't heard it from him that

25 very morning.

Page 1184

1 Q. Did he in that sense say anything about his own position above

2 that he was a major and positioned in the hospital itself?

3 A. Well, this man who wanted to have a list drawn up with all the

4 wounded, he was adamant about this, and then he told him what he told him.

5 He introduced himself saying he was Major Sljivancanin, that this was his

6 country, and that he was in charge here and, well, nothing; they just

7 talked on. The other man was speaking in English and I didn't understand

8 what he was saying but I'm telling you what I heard.

9 Q. Thank you. I just quote you here. You said that he was -- that

10 he told that he was in charge here. What is your impression about what he

11 was meaning by that?

12 A. My impression was that he was the one determining what would

13 happen to those people who were being taken away. Determining what would

14 become of us who were still there. The entire hospital, all the people

15 inside the hospital. He was the one determining what would happen to

16 everyone. Nobody was free to leave or go wherever they wanted. It all

17 had to be done the way that he had ordered.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic?

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I was in no position to interrupt.

20 This whole line of questioning, there are two things that I believe to

21 constitute drawbacks. A, the questions are leading. B, the witness is

22 asked to speculate and to assume what the role of Mr. Sljivancanin might

23 have been. This calls for speculation and this speculation is obtained by

24 a series of extremely leading questions. There were several such

25 questions. For example, on page 5, line 25, and several other questions.

Page 1185

1 I hoped that this would soon stop but now I see that the whole set of

2 questions is very leading and I don't think questions of this sort should

3 be asked on examination-in-chief.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Your reference to line 25, Mr. Lukic, I don't see

5 that to be a leading question. There had been, though, some other

6 questions that were, and I think the proposition basically put by

7 Mr. Lukic, Mrs. Tuma, is sound. You can get from this witness what she

8 saw, what she heard, what people were doing. But then trying to have her

9 add to that by saying what her impression was of what somebody meant or so

10 forth is just pushing too far. The facts will speak for themselves as to

11 what she saw and what she heard. So if you would keep it down to her

12 observations, sight and sound, the events that were actually occurring, I

13 think we'll avoid the problems that Mr. Lukic has drawn attention to.

14 Thank you.

15 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Okay. In that -- in the hospital, during that morning, and now we

17 are -- I'm talking about Wednesday, the 29th [sic] of November 1991, did

18 you see in the morning in the hospital or at any time --

19 JUDGE PARKER: Did you mean 20th of November?

20 MS. TUMA: Yeah.

21 JUDGE PARKER: It's recorded as 29 in the transcript.

22 MS. TUMA: I said 20th.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Just so it's clear to the witness.

24 MS. TUMA: The 20th of November.

25 JUDGE PARKER: November the 20th. Thank you.

Page 1186


2 Q. Did you see any kind of selection of people inside the hospital?

3 A. On the morning of the 20th, as I was passing down that corridor,

4 there was a doctor, I'm not quite sure which one it was but I believe it

5 was Dr. Stanojevic. He was there with a high military official whose rank

6 I didn't know because I don't know about these things. He spoke to him,

7 however, saying, "Comrade Mrksic." They were walking together down that

8 corridor, and this doctor who, by the way, hails from Vukovar and he knew

9 most of the patients, was saying this one is ours and this one isn't.

10 This is one of us, and this one isn't, meaning this one is a Serb and the

11 one who wasn't one of theirs was a Croat. This is what I heard when I was

12 walking down that corridor.

13 Q. Thank you. When you heard this, what was your distance to this --

14 the people that were walking, when you overheard they said.

15 A. They were a few feet away but there were wounded lying on either

16 side of the corridor in beds. Those were seriously wounded persons who

17 couldn't just get up and leave the hospital building.

18 Q. Did you hear clearly what was saying -- what was said?

19 A. I heard it loud and clear when he spoke to him saying, "Comrade

20 Mrksic."

21 Q. What happened directly after that?

22 A. After that, we were standing outside and this one soldier - I

23 can't say which one because I didn't know them - said to separate the

24 Serbs from the Croats. There was a separation of Serbs and Croats because

25 both Serbs and Croats were in the hospital as well as a number of other

Page 1187

1 ethnicities.

2 Q. Were you at this point of time standing outside the hospital?

3 A. I was still standing where I was, once I had got out. We had to

4 wait there for further orders that would tell us where to go.

5 Q. What happened at the entrance of the hospital?

6 A. As the wounded were leaving the building, I was there and a man in

7 uniform came up and talked to a lady. She asked what would become of them

8 and he said, "They will all be killed. This is something that's been

9 agreed."

10 Q. Who were they then talking about?

11 A. They were talking about the people who had been taken aside and

12 taken to the buses early in the morning.

13 Q. When you are referring to the people, can you more -- be more

14 specific about that? Who that group, who they comprised of?

15 A. Those who were slightly wounded, and the staff, medical staff,

16 help workers, all those who were able to move. Those who were in the

17 hospital when they were being separated, when men were being taken to one

18 side and women to the other. That's when they went to the buses.

19 Q. You mentioned here that men were taken to one side and the others

20 to -- and women to the other. At that -- did you see that?

21 A. Yes. I saw that. I experienced that. I had been separated from

22 my husband. We left the hospital building together and then we were

23 separated.

24 Q. At the time when you were separated from your husband, were there

25 any kind of soldier present at that time?

Page 1188

1 A. It was a soldier who separated us, so, yes, there were soldiers

2 there.

3 Q. What kind of soldier or soldiers?

4 A. They were wearing JNA uniforms or some other sort of uniform but I

5 don't think so because they were there with the JNA. So I don't know.

6 They were wearing a uniform, military uniform.

7 Q. Were there any kind of directions giving at -- at this event by

8 any soldier?

9 A. No. There was that one standing at the door, sending men to one

10 side and women to the other, separating them.

11 Q. Were there anyone overseeing what happened at this specific

12 incident?

13 A. Major Sljivancanin was standing there, too.

14 Q. Did you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You said that he was standing there. Did he do anything? Did he

17 say anything?

18 A. I wasn't really listening because he was talking to his soldiers.

19 I was standing in a group of people where the women were and we were

20 waiting to see what would happen.

21 Q. What is your impression of -- in how he was in the way he was

22 acting?

23 MR. LUKIC: Objection.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic?

25 MR. LUKIC: Again, same question. Calls for speculation.

Page 1189

1 JUDGE PARKER: I was waiting to hear how the question was

2 understood by the witness. It may be satisfactory. It may go over the

3 edge. So I'm alert to your problem, Mr. Lukic.


5 Q. Can you please answer the question?

6 A. Can you please repeat?

7 Q. Excuse me, I will repeat exactly what I said through reading the

8 transcript. What is your impression of -- in how he was in the way he was

9 acting?

10 A. My impression, there was no impression. There was just a lot of

11 fear. He was acting in a soldierly kind of way. He was being strict, but

12 that was the approach that he took probably because he was a professional

13 soldier. I can only tell you that I was certainly very scared.

14 Q. Why were you scared?

15 A. Well, we had been in the basement for a full three months. We

16 were being shelled, day in, day out, and then they started separating us,

17 men to one side and women to the other. What else could I have felt but

18 fear? I felt fear.

19 Q. Fear of what?

20 A. Fear that we would perhaps all be killed.

21 Q. What happened exactly after that?

22 A. As I was still standing there, they carried another wounded person

23 out on a stretcher, the soldiers did, they dropped him from the stretcher

24 and started kicking him. I don't know what happened to that wounded

25 person later. This was perhaps ten metres away from where I was standing

Page 1190

1 myself. Later on, we were ordered to leave the hospital courtyard. Again

2 there were buses waiting there that we, the elderly, women and children,

3 were supposed to board.

4 Q. Thank you. You said here that they carried a wounded -- another

5 wounded person out on stretchers. Who were -- who were they?

6 A. I personally knew that wounded person who was there. He had a

7 plaster cast on all the way up to his hip. His name was Martin Dosen. I

8 knew the man and I saw them drop him off the stretcher and kick him, but

9 that was all I saw.

10 Q. Did you see later on or exactly after that what happened with this

11 specific person, Dosen?

12 A. No. I didn't. I left the hospital perimeter and then we were

13 standing by the road side for a long time waiting for those buses to take

14 us somewhere.

15 Q. Did you see who kicked him, Dosen?

16 A. The soldiers kicked him, soldiers in uniform. I'm not sure which

17 uniform, though.

18 Q. Were there more than one who kicked him?

19 A. There were four of them carrying the stretcher. I only saw what

20 I've just told you. There were four of them carrying the stretcher and

21 then they chucked him from the stretcher and started kicking him on the

22 floor.

23 Q. Where did this take -- where did it happened?

24 A. This happened near the hospital exit, between the hospital exit

25 and the buses waiting midway down the road. I don't think the distance is

Page 1191

1 greater than 20 metres. 20 metres, tops. From the hospital exit to where

2 the buses were, midway down that path or road.

3 Q. Did you see any other beating?

4 A. I didn't.

5 Q. Did you see where the men went?

6 A. I didn't see that either because I was already on the other side

7 of the hospital, or, rather, I was already in another street.

8 Q. Can you describe what happened to you? You were standing you said

9 here on the other street. What happened there?

10 A. As we stood there, a lot of soldiers passed by. They walked in

11 groups, carrying a horrible-looking flag with skulls. They also sang a

12 song that went something, "Slobodan get some salad. There will be meat

13 because we will be slaughtering Croats."

14 As for us, we stood in a line waiting to board the buses which

15 were supposed to take us somewhere but at that time we still didn't know

16 where.

17 Q. When you were standing there waiting, did you observe anything

18 that you -- that could be mentioned?

19 A. Just a lot of soldiers. Then finally, the buses arrived at about

20 11.00 or 11.30, I don't know, I'm not sure, and then we boarded the buses

21 and they drove us away. Those were green military buses, not civilian

22 buses, the buses belonging to the army, JNA. Then they drove us through

23 the town. There were bodies all strewn around through the town, bodies of

24 dead people, and then we went through Ralik and some villages and arrived

25 in Sremska Mitrovica that same day.

Page 1192

1 Q. Thank you. Before you were entering the buses, did you see any

2 other civilians around you except for that group that yourself were part

3 of?

4 A. Yes. There were very many civilians, women, children, the

5 elderly, there were a lot of us. There were several buses there that took

6 us away.

7 Q. Did you see other people than the people that were later on taken

8 away in the buses when you were standing outside waiting for the buses?

9 A. Well, I saw the soldiers singing the songs. They stood in groups.

10 They arrived in groups carrying flags with them and singing.

11 Q. Thank you. Did you see any people that were injured?

12 A. No. I don't think there were any such people in our bus, not in

13 the bus where I was. I don't think that there were any wounded persons

14 there.

15 Q. Now, I'm not asking about the people in the bus. I'm asking about

16 when you were standing outside waiting to entering the buses, when you

17 were waiting for the buses, if you were at that point see any injured

18 people.

19 A. There were wounded people there. The ones who had been separated,

20 who used to be in the hospital and then were separated from us. There

21 were a lot of wounded people there, slightly wounded persons.

22 Q. Were there other people that were wounded or injured than the ones

23 you have already said?

24 A. I don't think so. I don't think I saw any.

25 MS. TUMA: Your Honour, with the permit answer of the court, if

Page 1193

1 that is allowed, to show the witness her statement given to the OTP

2 investigator on the 18th July, 1992, in order to ask her or remind her

3 what she then said to the investigator when she was questioned at that

4 time concerning this specific question. Thank you.

5 JUDGE PARKER: You propose to see that the witness see the

6 statement to see whether it refreshes her memory, is that it?

7 MS. TUMA: Correct, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Is there any objection -- is there any

9 objection?

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have an objection, Your Honours.

11 First of all, I think that this must be a 1995 statement and I believe

12 that this must be just a typo. But I also have an objection to this type

13 of approach in refreshing the witness's memory. You can see that the OTP

14 has already talked to this witness and they have shown the statement to

15 the witness and this was done as recently as several days ago. I don't

16 think that this is an appropriate way to conduct chief examination.

17 Questions put in chief examination should be such so that the witness is

18 able to answer questions on their own, without any further guidance. This

19 witness was shown the statement several days ago and now her memory needs

20 to be refreshed once again. We received corrections which means that they

21 talked to this witness as recently as several days ago, so this statement

22 must have been shown to the witness in order to make corrections.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

24 The jurisprudence of this Tribunal, in keeping with the

25 jurisprudence of many nations that have an adversarial system, does allow

Page 1194

1 in these circumstances that the witness may refresh her memory from a

2 statement previously made. I would make it clear that the position varies

3 between some adversarial countries. In my own country, this would not be

4 allowed. But it is the position in many and it is the established

5 jurisprudence of this Tribunal. The Chamber, though, well knows at what

6 point the witness was asked to refresh her memory and, of course, that

7 will be taken into account in assessing what weight we might ultimately

8 attach to evidence that comes only because it's been refreshed.

9 The witness may see the statement, Mrs. Tuma.

10 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Could you tell us, please, which statement it is?

12 MS. TUMA: Absolutely, Your Honour. It is the statement taken on

13 the 18th July, 1995, by the investigator who was representing the Office

14 of the Prosecutor, Jose Limmayog Jr. And that statement is also signed by

15 the current witness. And also, the part that I would like specifically to

16 show the witness is on page 4 in the English version and also the same

17 page, number 4, in the B/C/S version.

18 JUDGE PARKER: The witness should be directed to the page and the

19 particular part, asked to read it, and then, with the statement put aside,

20 you may ask her whether she remembers certain matters, okay?

21 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour. Just for the information of

22 the Court, that I don't know the B/C/S language. I can -- yeah. It

23 should be this specific part in the B/C/S but I'm not 100 per cent sure

24 while my language skills, not yet at least, entails also B/C/S language.

25 But I can -- I can show her the part that I most certainly think is the

Page 1195

1 right one.

2 JUDGE PARKER: How will Defence counsel no what part it is that

3 you are referring the witness to? Have you got a copy that can be passed

4 over in the B/C/S that marks the passage?

5 MS. TUMA: Yes. I've got it here. I will now show the usher

6 which part I'm meaning. Starting here -- it's starting there and it's

7 ending -- it's just two sentences.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Has that been shown to Defence counsel?

9 MS. TUMA: Can I do that, please?

10 JUDGE PARKER: The usher will pass it over.

11 MS. TUMA: Okay.

12 JUDGE PARKER: The witness has now seen the passage? And your

13 question, Mrs. Tuma? Non-leading.

14 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Did you see -- I'm asking the witness, did you see any other

16 injured persons when you were standing outside the hospital?

17 A. Yes. I got mixed up. I mixed up those days to some extent. But

18 at any rate, when they took away this slightly wounded persons, there were

19 hospital workers among them, drivers, help workers, and so on. To -- I

20 don't know where they took them. Most likely to Velepromet, but I don't

21 know that for a fact. Then they asked Major Sljivancanin to bring back

22 the people who had hospital IDs on their pockets, proving that these

23 people were hospital staff, that they worked at the hospital. Once those

24 people were brought back, we were still there and those people were

25 brought back with bloody faces and they were beaten in a place that they

Page 1196

1 had been taken to. So these are the people that I saw.

2 Q. Do you happen to know the gender of those people?

3 A. Those were mostly men.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 A. Two of them were never found, Jozo Adzaga and Jozo Zeljko. They

6 were in the group that was returned but it seems that after that, they

7 were taken some place again and now they are missing.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MS. TUMA: No more questions, please. I'm done with the

10 examination-in-chief. Thank you.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mrs. Tuma.

12 Mr. Vasic?

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic will now have some questions for you.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I need a moment

17 to get ready. I need to take the lectern because I wasn't expecting the

18 examination in chief to be concluded so soon.

19 Q. Good afternoon, Madam. Let me introduce myself. I'm

20 attorney-at-law Miroslav Vasic. In view of the fact that you're a

21 protected witness I would kindly ask you to make a pause before answering

22 my questions so that the interpreters can interpret what you say and what

23 I say and so that your voice would not be heard through my microphone;

24 therefore, I need enough time to switch off my microphone. In addition, I

25 would like to ask you to answer my questions with a yes or a no, unless my

Page 1197

1 question is such that it requires a longer answer.

2 In view of everything you have told us here in the previous day

3 and a half, it seems that you are quite bitter about all of the Serb

4 nationals who took part in the events and that you refer to them as

5 Chetniks.

6 A. No. I didn't refer to them as Chetniks. I referred to them as

7 members of the army. As for me being bitter, no. I'm not. Rather, I am

8 very sad and unhappy about it.

9 Q. Do you have any bitter feelings towards the JNA? Do you believe

10 them to be responsible for the tragedy that you experienced?

11 A. I'm not a politician and I know nothing about that. I'm a simple

12 civilian who lived in the city of Vukovar. I experienced these events. I

13 lost my whole family and have nobody anymore.

14 Q. Do you thus believe that no sentence would be sufficient to

15 ameliorate the pain that you have suffered?

16 A. What have I have with these sentences? I can't explain to you how

17 I feel. What are those sentences to me?

18 Q. As we have already heard, in June of 1995, you gave a statement to

19 the OTP representatives, isn't that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You waited for 14 years since the events in Vukovar to be invited

22 to come here and to tell everyone what has been bothering you all these

23 years; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. After you gave your statement in July of 1995, you expected to be

Page 1198

1 invited to come to testify in the course of 1998, when a trial was held

2 here against the then accused Slavko Dokmanovic, who was accused precisely

3 for the events that we are discussing here. However, you were not invited

4 to come here and testify.

5 A. No, I wasn't. In addition to that, I wasn't present in the areas

6 where those events took place and where Slavko Dokmanovic was.

7 Q. Were you then disappointed that the Prosecution failed to invite

8 you to come and testify about the events you described in your statement,

9 given in July of 1995, thus never giving you a chance to come to the Court

10 and describe your experiences?

11 A. I expected them to invite me to come here but I wasn't surprised

12 at not being invited at the time.

13 Q. Therefore, did you come here now wishing to ensure, through your

14 testimony, that these accused would receive the longest possible

15 sentences?

16 A. Well, for the time being, nothing has been proven yet. Once it's

17 proven, the Court will decide. As for my wishes, I have none.

18 Q. Now, after 14 years, you have an opportunity to testify before the

19 Trial Chamber. Do you believe that you have a right to represent certain

20 details or events in the light that you wish to attribute to them even

21 though you yourself didn't see or hear these details or events?

22 A. You're not right. I would never describe something of the sort,

23 even though it's been 14 years, 1991 is as fresh in my mind as it was back

24 then. It will remain that way until I die. When I close my eyes, I can

25 see and hear everything that happened back then.

Page 1199

1 Q. Did you see it or hear it even better in 1995 when you gave your

2 statement to the OTP?

3 A. Back then, I gave the same statement. I only can describe one

4 version. There is only one statement I can give, and that is the one

5 describing what I experienced and saw.

6 Q. Prior to your testimony, Defence received from the OTP corrections

7 to your 1995 statement. Were these corrections written on the basis of

8 what you discussed with them in the past 10 days?

9 A. It's been very many years. It's been a lot of years. And if

10 perhaps one word was amiss, that doesn't mean that you can put these

11 questions to me now. Everything I stated is true, and 1991 was 14 years

12 ago, 1995 was ten years ago, and it is possible that a word can be wrong

13 here or there. But the essence of what I said is always the same, both

14 what I said in 1995 and what I said now.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma?

16 MS. TUMA: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. I just go back in the

17 transcript here, what the Defence is saying that, it's line 6 or so, yeah,

18 "corrections written on the basis of what you discussed with them in the

19 past 10 days." That could be interpreted as that OTP discussed with the

20 witness during 10 days, and I would like to add that the addendum that has

21 also been disclosed to the Defence was done on the 31st of October, 2005.

22 It was one day and not 10 days.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mrs. Tuma.

24 MS. TUMA: Thank you.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, Mr. Vasic.

Page 1200

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

2 Defence doesn't have a problem with that. We didn't really claim that the

3 OTP spent 10 days talking to the witness but that, rather, it was done

4 within the past 10 days. At any rate, thank you, my learned friend from

5 the Prosecution.

6 Q. Madam, can you please tell us whether your recollections were

7 fresher in 1995 when you gave your statement then or today?

8 A. They are equally fresh when it comes to the 1991 events.

9 Q. What about when you first gave your statement to the OTP back in

10 1995? Did you not state that you would answer truthfully any questions

11 and to the best of your knowledge and recollection?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Once you'd given your statement, once the statement had been typed

14 up, was the statement read back to you in the Croatian language and did

15 you not sign the statement to confirm everything that is in it? Did you

16 not thereby confirm that the statement reflected your recollection of how

17 things happened?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When making corrections to your statement on the 31st of October,

20 2005, did you perhaps want to help the OTP through these corrections so

21 that they may be better able to present the Prosecution case?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Before you made these corrections, did perhaps one of my learned

24 friends from the OTP explain that some of the things you stated in your

25 first statement were not quite consistent with some parts of the

Page 1201

1 indictment?

2 A. I may have forgotten something myself. It's been a long time,

3 after all.

4 Q. My apologies, but I asked whether my learned friends from the OTP

5 perhaps explained to you during your briefing session that some of the

6 things you had stated in your previous statement were not perhaps

7 consistent with some allegations made in the indictment.

8 A. I don't understand the question.

9 Q. As you were making corrections to your 1995 statement, did my

10 learned friends from the OTP show you any other statements by other

11 witnesses who speak differently of the same things that you are speaking

12 about?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Is it your submission, Madam, that you now remember things more

15 clearly now, 14 years after, than you did in 1995, three and a half years

16 after the facts, when you gave your first statement?

17 A. I'm not saying anything like that. There may be minor

18 inconsistencies, a word that slipped through the cracks, something like

19 that, but basically I keep stating the same thing and all I am saying

20 something based on what I saw and heard at the time.

21 Q. You took an oath here before this Honourable Trial Chamber. I

22 hope that you are aware of your duty to tell the truth as well as the

23 consequences should you fail to tell the truth.

24 A. I am telling the truth.

25 Q. Thank you very much.

Page 1202

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure if this

2 might be a convenient time to break or perhaps I should press on now.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Because of the late start, we thought to go to

4 about ten minutes to 4.00, but if it would be of significant advantage to

5 you, we could break now.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honour. I just

7 thought that I should like to be in keeping with the well-established

8 courtroom schedule. As far as I'm concerned, I'm prepared to continue.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Another 15 minutes or so, Mr. Vasic.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. During your stay in The Hague, which witnesses were you were touch

12 with?

13 A. None.

14 Q. Did you meet any of the witnesses at the hotel?

15 A. I'm staying at a different hotel.

16 Q. But at least you do know that these other witnesses are staying in

17 a different hotel.

18 A. Yes. I know that the witnesses who came before me were in a

19 different hotel. I'm in a different hotel myself. I'm not here on my

20 own. I'm being accompanied by someone and so on and so forth.

21 Q. Before your arrival in The Hague, did you meet Dr. Bosanac in

22 Zagreb?

23 A. No. I didn't meet Dr. Bosanac. She was already in The Hague when

24 I was arriving in Zagreb.

25 Q. Prior to your arrival in this courtroom, did you perhaps have an

Page 1203

1 opportunity to follow the testimonies of other witnesses who have appeared

2 in this case?

3 A. No. I don't watch television much these days, and I don't really

4 follow that particular subject matter. It causes me so much disquiet that

5 I have trouble sleeping.

6 Q. What about your family? Were any of your family members also

7 members of the HDZ?

8 A. No. I couldn't really tell you about one of my sons. I can't be

9 sure. I know that I myself wasn't. I couldn't say positively about my

10 son but I never saw a membership card or anything. However, I can't fully

11 commit myself.

12 Q. Do you know who won the local elections in Vukovar back in 1991?

13 A. Yes, I do, the SDP.

14 Q. Following that election, was Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic, a member of

15 the SDP, not elected president of the municipal assembly?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you know that at one point in the summer of 1991, the

18 government of the Republic of Croatia replaced the legally elected

19 president, Slavko Dokmanovic, and appointed in his place a commissioner

20 from their own ranks, the HDZ?

21 A. I don't know about that. I was never into politics. I just did

22 my job so this wasn't something I was aware of.

23 Q. Was anyone in your family a member of the ZNG, National Guards

24 Corps?

25 A. My son.

Page 1204

1 Q. Do you know if he attended a meeting of the ZNG that was organised

2 in Bogdanovci by Tomislav Mercep in March 1991 where about 2.000

3 volunteers assembled?

4 A. I know nothing about that. You can go on like this for the whole

5 day asking me questions about this but I still know nothing about it. I

6 know nothing about the political parties, I know nothing about Mercep. I

7 know nothing about this meeting that was purportedly organised. I know

8 nothing about that.

9 Q. Do you know that as early as May 1991, Croats were organising

10 themselves into groups all over Vukovar in order to defend, as they said,

11 from the local Serbs?

12 A. I made myself very clear. I'm no politician, and these topics are

13 not part of my testimony or experience. A lot of things happened in

14 Vukovar, many things, all sorts of things. It's just that I can't talk

15 about many things. I don't think that this should be part of my

16 testimony, specifically what happened in May. I really can't testify

17 about that. It would only make things more complicated. I would then

18 remember what happened in Borovo Selo in May. But these are all things

19 that I heard. This would be based on hearsay because I witnessed none of

20 those incidents nor was I directly involved in any of them.

21 Q. Did you perhaps hear any of the explosions that resounded all over

22 Vukovar in May, June, and July, when Serb-owned buildings were being blown

23 up as well as kiosks owned by the Borba newspaper company?

24 A. Yes, I heard explosions.

25 Q. Do you know where the barracks is in Vukovar?

Page 1205

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know that in the summer of 1991, the barracks was blocked

3 by ZNG members?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know that sometime later, after the barracks' electricity

6 and water supplies were cut off, as well as their telephone lines, the

7 barracks was subjected to attacks by the ZNG?

8 A. I don't know about that. I wasn't into that.

9 Q. You'll agree, won't you, that it was only as late as August 1991

10 that clashes occurred between the ZNG and the JNA?

11 A. Yes, in August. I think it was August when fierce shooting

12 started.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please go into

14 private session briefly? I have a brief set of questions that might

15 compromise the protective measures granted to this witness.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1206











11 Page 1206 redacted. Private session.















Page 1207











11 Page 1207 redacted. Private session.















Page 1208

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Vasic.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. I would like to go back to some questions about the witness's

9 family. So perhaps it would be good to move into private session.

10 JUDGE PARKER: We are hesitant, Mr. Vasic, but, yes, we will go

11 into private for a little while and see whether it's necessary.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1209











11 Page 1209 redacted. Private session.















Page 1210











11 Page 1210 redacted. Private session.















Page 1211

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You said in your statement that after the 18th, many people

15 started moving towards the hospital in the belief that the hospital was a

16 safe place; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you know that members of the MUP and the ZNG also came with the

19 civilians to the hospital because they were withdrawing from the

20 frontlines at the time?

21 A. No. I don't know that. I didn't know that.

22 Q. Do you know that from the 16th of November, the news spread

23 through Vukovar that all those from the hospital would be evacuated under

24 the supervision of the European observers?

25 A. Perhaps I did hear something, yes.

Page 1212

1 Q. And did you know anyone who was a member of the ZNG?

2 A. My son was, I told you, and his colleagues. There were people

3 like that.

4 Q. Did you know who his commander was?

5 A. No, I didn't know that either.

6 Q. Did you see any of the colleagues that you mentioned in the

7 hospital after November 1991?

8 A. Well, the ones that I knew went to carry out a breakthrough. The

9 police and the young men from the ZNG went before the hospital -- before

10 the soldiers came to the hospital, to try to break through in the area

11 towards Vinkovci.

12 Q. Can you tell us a little bit more about this attempt to break

13 through to Vinkovci? How did this happen?

14 A. Well, I don't know. All I know is that they talked when they came

15 to Vinkovci and Zagreb, that they had assembled and then at night they had

16 set out to do that. Some of them were killed there because the terrain

17 was mined. Some of them were swimming across the Vuka river in November.

18 Some of them stayed alive going through the fields, which were mined.

19 Q. And did they tell you that considerable number of members of the

20 ZNG remained in Vukovar who did not participate in this attempt to break

21 through?

22 A. No, I didn't hear anything like that, no. Many of them were

23 killed, about 5.000.

24 Q. In this action to break through?

25 A. No, but in the course of the fighting.

Page 1213

1 Q. And do you know that some members of the MUP changed into civilian

2 clothes in the hospital in order to leave the hospital with civilians?

3 A. I didn't see that.

4 Q. Did you know the members of the MUP who were securing the

5 hospital?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you ever see any security at the doors to the hospital?

8 A. I didn't go out through the door.

9 Q. Throughout the period from September until the 20th of November,

10 you never left the hospital?

11 A. No. That whole time was spent in the cellar, in the -- below

12 ground level. Whoever ventured outside was killed.

13 Q. Were there any ambulance drivers in the hospital?

14 A. Yes, there were.

15 Q. Do you know whether they left the hospital premises?

16 A. If a shell fell somewhere and killed and wounded many people, then

17 they had to go and pick up the wounded there and then they brought them to

18 the hospital, so that would be that.

19 Q. And those ambulance drivers were alive until November 1991, isn't

20 that correct?

21 A. Yes. Some of them were alive. A driver drives a car. But if I

22 ventured outside on the streets, I would probably be struck by a shell or

23 by shrapnel.

24 Q. Where did you prepare the hospital meals? Can you tell us?

25 A. Yes. In one room, that was the ear, nose, and eye department.

Page 1214

1 There was a stove there. It was an improvised area. And that was where

2 we were making the meals because the proper hospital kitchen was damaged

3 with shells.

4 Q. And the place that you are talking about now was in the basement

5 of the old hospital?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And on the 18th and the 19th of November, did you prepare meals

8 for the hospital?

9 A. Well, there was nothing much to prepare because there was nothing

10 left. There was panic at the time. We were making tea. We had some

11 flour left so we were making some kind of bread or dough. The flour, we

12 mixed it with water and just fried it in oil, so this is what we served.

13 Q. Can you please tell us, breakfast was prepared in the morning for

14 the hospital, wasn't it?

15 A. Well, it was not set. On the 19th and the 20th, there was no

16 breakfast. Nobody had anything to eat. There was no breakfast.

17 Q. If I were to tell you that some hospital kitchen staff asserted

18 that on the 17th, 18th, and even the 19th in the morning, they prepared

19 food for the hospital, what would you say?

20 A. Well, I wouldn't say anything, if that is what they said that's

21 fine. But I'm telling you what I'm telling you now because that's what

22 the situation was for a couple of days before that, that we didn't really

23 have anything left in the hospital.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma?

25 MS. TUMA: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. The witness is asking

Page 1215

1 questions that could perhaps reveal her identity.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Do you have more questions of this type, Mr. Vasic?

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that there is no

4 danger since we did hear that there were a lot of people. But I don't

5 have any more questions which would focus on some small group.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. The last few days spent in the Vukovar Hospital, did you move in

9 the rooms where the wounded were staying?

10 A. Only in a small area that I had to cross in order to reach the

11 toilets.

12 Q. Can you tell me, did you hear that some of the wounded were

13 bandaged by the doctors or that the doctors put plaster on them in order

14 to pass them off as the wounded even though they weren't?

15 A. No, I didn't hear that. I didn't go and mix with the medical

16 staff. I just stayed in the kitchen. No, no. I didn't hear that. I

17 especially didn't see anything like that.

18 Q. In your statement given on the 18th of July 1995, did you state

19 explicitly to the OTP investigators that in the second part of -- on the

20 day on the 19th of November, you saw Bogdan Dukic, Darko Fot, Mirko

21 Vojnovic, and Marko Savic -- excuse me, Mirko Savic, taking out Martin

22 Dosen who was on a stretcher and that they dumped him into the yard to die

23 there?

24 A. No. That's not how I stated it.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please give a copy of

Page 1216

1 the B/C/S statement to the witness so that I can ask her to read out the

2 text in paragraph 1 on page 4 of the B/C/S version. This can be found on

3 page 3, paragraph 2, of the English version.

4 Q. Madam, would you please read out the first paragraph on page 4 of

5 your statement, slowly, please, to so that the interpreters can interpret

6 that?

7 A. "On the 19th of November, Vukovar fell. Many civilians kept

8 arriving in the hospital throughout the entire day, seeking shelter. I

9 can't say exactly how many there were. In the second half of the day, the

10 JNA soldiers entered the hospital. Dr. Bosanac negotiated with the

11 members of the JNA to secure the hospital, i.e., to prevent the Chetniks

12 from entering it. JNA promised to us that we would be evacuated to

13 Croatia without problems. However, many Chetniks managed to enter. The

14 hospital had a main entrance and another entrance into the basement.

15 There were also two gates in the hospital yard. The Chetniks, whom I saw

16 enter the hospital with the JNA soldiers, were Bogdan Dukic, Darko Fot.

17 Mirko Vojnovic, nicknamed Capalo, and Mirko Savic. I saw them take out

18 Martin Dosen, who was one of the wounded in the hospital. Although he was

19 on a stretcher, they still pushed him and just dumped him into the

20 courtyard -- in the courtyard, to die. He's among those listed as

21 missing."

22 Q. Thank you, Madam.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] We will not be needing the document

24 any longer. Could the usher give it back to me if that's not any problem.

25 Q. Madam, is this your statement?

Page 1217

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. While giving evidence today, when asked by my learned

3 friend, did you state that you only saw some people beating Martin Dosen

4 but you didn't see other cases of beating?

5 A. In the statement I gave in 1995, all of that is included. It is

6 stated there that I recognised the soldiers because they were from

7 Vukovar. However, I didn't explicitly state that they were the ones

8 carrying Martin Dosen. That was a mistranslation. Martin Dosen was

9 carried on the 20th in the morning.

10 Q. How do you explain, then, that in your statement, and you just

11 confirmed to us that this is the statement you gave in 1995, it is stated

12 that you saw that on the 19th? Is your memory fresher today or was it

13 fresher then?

14 A. My recollections are quite fresh, and they were so -- and they

15 were just as fresh back then in 1995. People were carried out on the

16 20th, not on the 19th.

17 Q. As far as I could understand, you spoke here about the incident

18 involving Martin Dosen, not about the wounded being taken out.

19 A. Martin Dosen was seriously injured. He was unable to walk.

20 Therefore he was carried outside of the building on a stretcher and then

21 they dumped him out of the stretcher and started beating him. That's what

22 I saw and that's what I said here.

23 Q. Today you told us that you didn't see the soldiers beating anyone

24 on the 20th of November 1991.

25 A. Except for Martin. I didn't see other cases.

Page 1218

1 Q. Didn't you say to us today that you didn't know who beat Martin

2 Dosen?

3 A. Yes. That's what I stated. I stated that in my original

4 statement and, as for the soldiers whose names I gave, those were the

5 soldiers who were in front of the hospital on the 19th afternoon. I

6 recognised them because they were the ones who walked about the premises

7 with rifles in their hands, and all of us recognised them because they

8 were people from the town.

9 Q. Once again I have to refer you to your statement given in 1995.

10 You read out the statement to us, rather, a sentence stating that you saw

11 them take out Martin Dosen, who was one of the wounded in the hospital.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Madam, please make sure you make pauses because of my microphone

14 which is turned on.

15 And then you stated that Bogdan Dukic, Darko Fot, Mirko Vojnovic

16 and Mirko Savic took away Martin Dosen. Please tell me what is the truth

17 here?

18 A. This is just a case of mistranslation, nothing else. These people

19 were there. Martin Dosen, however, was taken out of the hospital on the

20 20th in the morning. I've already stated this three times. He was taken

21 out by the soldiers whom I didn't recognise and then these soldiers beat

22 him. I saw that.

23 Q. If this is a case of wrong translation, why did you say, then, in

24 your statement that these individuals dumped Martin Dosen out of the

25 stretcher and left him in the yard to die? Was that translated wrongly as

Page 1219

1 well?

2 A. The soldiers dumped him, yes. It doesn't platter which soldiers.

3 Some soldiers dumped him. They dumped him out of the stretcher, beat him,

4 and left him there. I don't know what happened with him afterwards.

5 Q. In your statement given in 1995 to the OTP, did you say that on

6 the 20th of November, in the morning, as you were standing in the yard,

7 you saw many local Chetniks beating men?

8 A. They searched them, took everything out of their pockets, and as

9 for beating them, well, yes, they would hit them in passing.

10 Q. Today, you told us that you didn't see any cases of beating except

11 for Martin Dosen. What is the truth here?

12 A. Everything is the truth. Everything I said. They didn't really

13 beat them seriously. They simply pushed them. They would take everything

14 out of their pockets and then push them aside in order to pass through.

15 That's what happened. I didn't see anybody's head being broken because

16 that didn't take place there.

17 Q. Who did these things?

18 A. The soldiers who were there or, as you said that I'm referring to

19 them Chetniks, I have to tell you that we called them Chetniks, those who

20 were in Vukovar because they referred to Croats as Ustashas. So those

21 were Chetniks who were there with the JNA. They were not there on their

22 own. They were there with Major Sljivancanin and with the Yugoslav

23 People's Army.

24 Q. You told us today that 16 men who had hospital ID badges were

25 boarded on a bus; isn't that right?

Page 1220

1 A. These men left together with all other men who had been separated

2 in front of the hospital. Those 16 of them, I am not sure whether there

3 were exactly 16 or perhaps a bit more, or a bit less, had also been

4 separated from the group and put on buses. However, somebody asked -- I'm

5 not sure who did -- some women probably, women who worked at the hospital,

6 asked Mr. Sljivancanin to bring back their husbands, brothers and so on,

7 and after a certain period of time, I wouldn't know exactly how long,

8 these 16 men were brought back. They had been beaten, they were all

9 bloody. They had been beaten somewhere, maybe at Velepromet. You will

10 ask me whether I saw this. No, I didn't see this but all of them said

11 that they had been at Velepromet and were then brought back to the

12 hospital.

13 Q. I am not going to interrupt you because I'm afraid that your voice

14 will be heard through my microphone but I would kindly ask you not to

15 answer in such a detailed manner. So all of these people were brought

16 back because they had hospital ID badges?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. If I were to tell you that in their statements, hospital workers

19 said that all of those people who had hospital ID badges were never

20 boarded on buses, that they were left standing in front of the buses?

21 A. No, that's not true. Nobody could have stated anything like that

22 because back then nobody even ever mentioned those hospital ID badges.

23 Q. Were you standing next to the buses?

24 A. No, no. The buses were parked in the yard. However, one could

25 see them. They were some 15 to 20 metres away.

Page 1221

1 Q. How do you know, then, whether somebody asked for their badges or

2 not?

3 A. I stood there at the exit. This is where it was decided who would

4 go where. This is where they separated men from women, and this is where

5 men were boarded on buses.

6 Q. Do you know that upon the return of these buses into the hospital

7 yard, one of the hospital workers had to guarantee that the person on the

8 bus was a colleague hospital worker before that person would be allowed to

9 get off the bus precisely because they didn't have their ID badges on

10 them?

11 A. I don't know that.

12 Q. Did you stand close to the buses upon their return?

13 A. We were still standing there when they came back, all beaten up.

14 The bus parked a bit further away and they walked back and then went to

15 look for their wives or whoever they had there. At any rate, they came

16 back and after a certain period of time, when it was time for us to go to

17 our buses, the buses where the women went to, then the men who had been

18 brought back joined the women and went together to those buses.

19 Q. Does that mean that you don't know how did they get off the buses?

20 A. I saw them when they came back. I don't understand your question.

21 What do you mean how they got off the buses?

22 Q. Did somebody had to confirm that they were indeed hospital

23 workers? That's what I asked you.

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. You said today in answer to a question by my learned friend from

Page 1222

1 the OTP that one of the local Serbs said to a lady that they would all be

2 killed and that this was something that had been agreed.

3 A. Yes, that's true.

4 Q. Where did this happen? Where did you hear this?

5 A. On the way out of the hospital building, at the exit, right there.

6 There was a group much women, we were standing there waiting, this

7 uniformed man came along, he was rather senior, grey hair, quite tall.

8 There was this lady who asked him where they were taking the men, and he

9 said quite literally, "They will all be killed. This has been agreed."

10 Q. Can you tell us who this lady was that he spoke to? Do you know

11 her?

12 A. I know neither of them. The lady was probably a civilian, someone

13 who came to Vukovar in order to escape from elsewhere. Maybe they even

14 knew each other. She took shelter in the hospital. That's what I was

15 trying to say. He came up to her. He talked to her. I was nearby, so

16 naturally I overheard their conversation.

17 Q. But you don't know who this person is? You did say that he was a

18 local Serb after all, didn't you?

19 A. When I say a local Serb, I apply that only to those I know

20 personally. All the others were all the same thing, all equal to me, they

21 were just military personnel wearing uniforms.

22 Q. Was that woman, too, a local resident?

23 A. Well, probably she was, since she happened to be in the Vukovar

24 Hospital. I'm sure that she was a local, too.

25 Q. You told us that you apply the term "local" to a person, you mean

Page 1223

1 you know somebody personally, and yet you used this very term in your 1995

2 statement to the OTP. You said "a local Serb" and you repeated that in

3 front of this Trial Chamber today. Does that mean that you actually knew

4 this person?

5 A. No. I didn't know that person. When I say a local Serb, that

6 means a Serb from Vukovar. That's what I would generally mean by using

7 that term. I didn't know this person. I didn't know him personally.

8 That's what I'm saying.

9 Q. When you heard what he said, did that scare you? Did that leave a

10 deep impression on you?

11 A. Yes. It did frighten me for the simple fact that my husband had

12 already been led away. I wanted to go and speak to someone but there was

13 no one for me to speak to. I wanted to plead that they bring him back

14 because he was handicapped. He was disabled. That's what I believed then

15 and I still believe that. He would not have been able to fight actively.

16 I wanted him brought back so that we may leave and, as I was hoping, go

17 back to our homes but this wasn't possible.

18 Q. This frightened you so much, didn't it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Scared you to that extent that you only remember it now, 14 years

21 later; isn't that correct?

22 A. No. I've known this from day one.

23 Q. So why didn't you say so to the OTP in July 1995, if indeed you've

24 known this from day one?

25 A. If I had to tell the whole story of what happened in Vukovar in

Page 1224

1 1991, I wouldn't be out of this courtroom for the next three years. I

2 can't say everything. I can't say the whole story, and I can't

3 necessarily remember all the things at any one time.

4 Q. But you did say that your apprehension actually had to do with

5 your father [as interpreted]. Was that not material in 1995 when you

6 first told the story?

7 A. Yes. It was relevant then as it is now.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Page 46, line 9, there is a mistake in

9 the transcript. Instead of father it should read "husband".

10 Q. But you will agree with me when I say that you never in fact

11 mentioned this prior to 2005, did you?

12 A. You mean that this man said what he said?

13 Q. Yes. What happened there.

14 A. Didn't occur to me. It's that simple.

15 Q. Thank you. You said today that when you were in the hospital

16 corridor, you heard a doctor speaking to an officer addressing him as

17 "Comrade Mrksic"?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Who was with you, if anyone, when you heard that?

20 A. My husband and I were walking down that corridor where the wounded

21 were lying and we were carrying a bag.

22 Q. Can you describe that doctor for us, please? The doctor who, as

23 you say, said that.

24 A. He had a white coat on, middle aged, and that was about it.

25 Q. Do you know his name?

Page 1225

1 A. Dr. Stanojevic, I think. I'm not sure that's 100 per cent

2 correct, but I believe so.

3 Q. Can you describe the officer now, please, the officer that the

4 doctor spoke to?

5 A. No, I can't. He was wearing a uniform, and the two of them were

6 walking down that corridor. There were beds on either side with wounded

7 persons in them. The doctor was saying, "This one is ours and this is not

8 one of ours." That's what I heard. That's what I witnessed. I just

9 walked by, of course, I didn't stop to listen to their conversation. I

10 just walked by and left the building.

11 Q. What sort of uniform was that officer wearing?

12 A. I think they all wore the same kind. They were all wearing JNA

13 uniforms. It's not like the Serbs had their own special uniform in

14 Vukovar.

15 Q. What colour was it?

16 A. Camouflage but I can remember the colours. It's been 15 years.

17 It's very difficult to talk about the colours of their uniforms. He was

18 certainly wearing a uniform and not civilian clothes.

19 Q. Madam, but 15 years later, you happen to remember that there was a

20 doctor who addressed a military officer by saying, "Comrade Mrksic."

21 That's why 15 years later I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask you.

22 This "Comrade Mrksic," what sort of uniform was he wearing? Do you think

23 you can answer that or no?

24 A. It was probably a military uniform. What other kind of uniform

25 could it possibly have been?

Page 1226

1 Q. Are you absolutely positive that you remember correctly what you

2 have just described?

3 A. Yes. I remember their conversation. I was passing by and I heard

4 him say, "Comrade Mrksic." But that's all I know and I said so at the

5 outset. I just walked past them and left the hospital building.

6 Q. What time was it?

7 A. It was in the morning when we were on our way out.

8 Q. What time specifically?

9 A. As I said, it was between 6.30 and 7.00. I couldn't be more

10 specific because I wasn't wearing a watch. I know it was early in the

11 morning when we were supposed to leave the hospital building.

12 Q. So you claim that you remember this event clearly, but isn't this

13 the first time you've ever mentioned it? Isn't it true that this is the

14 very first time that you have referred to it? You ever never spoken about

15 this doctor addressing a military officer as "Comrade Mrksic," have you?

16 A. No. In fact, I did refer to this in my statement back in 1995.

17 This is certainly not the first reference that I've made to it.

18 Q. In your 1995 statement, you make no reference to a doctor who

19 addressed an officer as "Comrade Mrksic." You told us in that statement

20 in 1995 that you personally saw Mrksic, that he was there, and that he was

21 giving orders, didn't you?

22 A. Mrksic was speaking to that doctor. I'm not sure if it was

23 Mrksic, in fact. He only called him "Mrksic" but I didn't know who Mrksic

24 was. And this doctor was telling me about who each of the patients were.

25 Q. You didn't say so in your 1995 statement, did you?

Page 1227

1 A. I did. I did say that. I did say that I'd heard that, that the

2 patients were being classified.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,

4 please, to show the witness her own statement dated the 18th of July 1995?

5 I will ask her to please read out a passage on page 4, passage 2 or

6 paragraph 2 of the B/C/S. And on page 3, paragraph 3 of the English.

7 Q. Madam, can you please slowly read out the passage that I've just

8 referred to?

9 A. "On the 20th of November at about 7.00 a.m., the slightly wounded

10 and civilians were taken away from the hospital at the order of Major

11 Sljivancanin and were boarded on to six buses. That morning, I saw a Serb

12 doctor, it was either Dr. Stanojevic or Dr. Manojlovic, who are very much

13 alike and I always confuse them. He was going around the corridor with a

14 JNA officer pointing at the wounded saying, "This is one of ours, this is

15 not one of ours." He was already wearing a military JNA uniform and no

16 longer a white coat."

17 Q. Thank you, Madam. That's quite sufficient.

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] If the usher could please take the

19 document away from the witness.

20 Q. Will you agree with me that in this portion of the statement you

21 make no specific reference to Mr. Mrksic or Comrade Mrksic?

22 A. Yes, that's true. Not in that portion of my statement.

23 Q. The portion of your statement where the doctor actually addresses

24 someone, a person, and you make no reference to Comrade Mrksic. Likewise,

25 today, you said that the doctor was in fact wearing a white coat, whereas

Page 1228

1 your statement clearly reads that he was wearing a military uniform. If

2 you could just please tell me which one of these is, in fact, true?

3 A. One of them was perhaps wearing a white coat, or rather positively

4 he was wearing a white coat. And the other person was in a military

5 uniform. I wouldn't have said so if that hadn't been the case. When the

6 army came in, the Serb doctors were immediately together with the army.

7 Q. But I'm asking you about the way you remember things. Not about

8 what you suppose to be the case or to have been the case. Was the doctor

9 in fact wearing a uniform or a white coat? Which is true?

10 A. There was one of them who was wearing a white coat and the other

11 doctor was wearing a military uniform. There were several of them, not

12 just one standing there.

13 Q. What about Dr. Stanojevic? What was he wearing?

14 A. The white coat. And he said, "Comrade Mrksic." He said that. I

15 heard it and I don't know why I didn't say it at the time. Maybe I just

16 didn't remember to add that, but he certainly said "Comrade Mrksic." And

17 you can ask away but I have nothing else to say.

18 Q. You said perhaps you didn't remember. You didn't remember what?

19 The name Mrksic perhaps?

20 A. No. I didn't remember but I'm saying now that it was Mrksic. He

21 said, "Comrade Mrksic."

22 Q. But back in 1995, you didn't know that he was Mrksic?

23 A. I probably said so. Most certainly. I believe I said so, it just

24 wasn't recorded. Perhaps I forgot to say it. Maybe I just said "a

25 high-ranking military officer."

Page 1229

1 Q. If indeed you said high-ranking military officer, does that mean

2 that you were not familiar with the name Mrksic, that it didn't ring a

3 bell at the time?

4 A. Yes, it did. I was familiar with that name.

5 Q. Didn't you tell us today that you had not in fact seen Mrksic

6 giving any orders in the hospital?

7 A. All I said today was that I heard what I heard in the corridor as

8 I was passing by: What the doctor said, in passing.

9 Q. Unfortunately I must show you that in your 1995 statement you

10 stated that you had heard Mrksic giving orders, but you did not mention

11 him in the context of having a conversation with that doctor. What I want

12 to know is, why these discrepancies? And which is true?

13 A. It's all true but you're asking me questions only in order to

14 confuse me. I can't talk in this way. I'm just telling you what I saw.

15 I'm telling you what I heard at the time. I never added anything. I

16 never made anything up. Nor am I able to. Otherwise I would not be

17 sitting here now. I am simply telling you what I went through. I'm

18 telling you what I heard. I didn't make any of this up.

19 Q. Madam, in your statement that you gave to the Prosecution in

20 October 2005, there are many different details compared to your statement

21 from 1995, and I have already covered most of these differences. But what

22 I am interested in is were you sure what you were saying about what you

23 were saying in 1995 and are you sure about what you are saying now?

24 Because the differences are quite significant.

25 A. All I can tell you is that I heard from that doctor, that he

Page 1230

1 said, "Comrade Mrksic." This is what I heard him say. I don't know what

2 else I can tell you.

3 Q. Did you say in your statement of 1995 that you saw Colonel Mrksic?

4 Do you remember that?

5 A. Well, I -- I'm not really well-versed in ranks. I don't know who

6 is a colonel, who is a general. I don't know ranks.

7 Q. But you mentioned Major Sljivancanin several times today. How do

8 you know that?

9 A. Well, I know that because the others addressed him as Major, and

10 even he said that he was Major Sljivancanin, when he was talking to

11 representatives from the international community. That's how I know it.

12 Otherwise I really am not familiar with ranks.

13 Q. Do you know if anybody insisted that you mentioned name Mrksic in

14 your statement when somebody -- or when they were talking to you?

15 A. Nobody talked to me. Since 1995, when I gave the statement, I

16 forgot about it, absolutely, until there was talk about testifying and

17 then it was said that I would testify in 2005. So since then until now, I

18 never talked about that with anybody. I went through a lot of trauma

19 because of that and I'm trying to bury all of the things that happened to

20 me deep inside, and I very rarely talk about the things that happened to

21 me during the war.

22 Q. If I were to tell you that the Defence will show that, on the 20th

23 of November, Mr. Mrksic was not at the Vukovar Hospital, would you allow

24 for the possibility that you mixed up the people and that the person you

25 saw was actually not Mr. Mrksic?

Page 1231

1 A. If that can save him from everything that he did in Vukovar, then

2 it doesn't have to be him, as far as I'm concerned. As far as I'm

3 concerned, it was a military officer who I saw. I was afraid of all the

4 military personnel that I saw there. And that's as much as I can say.

5 Q. Well, I'm going to rephrase the question so that we don't have to

6 move into private session. Do you know that water and food provided by

7 the JNA arrived at the hospital in the afternoon of the 19th?

8 A. I don't know. Perhaps they brought water. But I don't know where

9 they would have brought the water from since there was no water in Vukovar

10 other than in polluted wells which were full of soil.

11 Q. I'm asking you about this because of your post at the time, and

12 I'm not going to mention what it was, but are you saying you don't have

13 any information about that, that you don't know anything about that?

14 A. No, I don't know anything about that.

15 Q. Can you tell us if the list of persons missing from the Vukovar

16 Hospital was given to the members of the European monitoring or observer

17 mission while they were still there on the 20th of November?

18 A. People were still boarding buses and they asked that a list be

19 made of those who were missing. For example, if my husband was missing,

20 then I would say that person is missing. So each person had to report who

21 was missing, that they knew of. One person wrote that down and this was

22 given to those people.

23 Q. Thank you. Did you know that the hospital staff were asked by JNA

24 officers if they wanted to stay in the Vukovar Hospital and continue to

25 work there or if they wanted to go to Serbia or Croatia?

Page 1232

1 A. No. I didn't know that.

2 Q. Did you know that even after the 20th of November, there were

3 Croatian doctors who remained working at the Vukovar Hospital?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Would you be surprised if I were to tell you that many hospital

6 staff did say that they were asked if they wanted to remain in Vukovar or

7 if they wanted to leave?

8 A. No. That wouldn't surprise me.

9 Q. Thank you. Madam, thank you very much. I have no further

10 questions.

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

12 questions for the witness.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.

14 We will break now and resume at 10 minutes to 6.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 5.28 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 5.52 p.m.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tapuskovic.

18 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Before I

19 start with my cross-examination of the witness, I just wanted to ask the

20 Trial Chamber a question and that is actually to assist all of the Defence

21 teams with the use of certain exhibits during the cross-examination. My

22 question is very brief, Your Honours. During cross-examination, can the

23 Defence use a document from the system which the Prosecution provided to

24 the Defence under Rule 65 ter? Now that we are using the E-Court system,

25 their documents are in the system. In the procedural sense, will the

Page 1233

1 Trial Chamber permit the Defence to use these documents during

2 cross-examination? Thank you. And these are documents that have still

3 not been used by the Prosecution during the examination-in-chief.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Did you refer to Rule 65 ter?

5 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I did refer to

6 Rule 65 ter.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma, do you have any particular submission?

8 MS. TUMA: Only that the exhibit in question needs to be relevant,

9 of course, to this witness.

10 JUDGE PARKER: I think we can rely on that.

11 MS. TUMA: Well, thank you.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Certainly, Mrs. Tapuskovic, and for all Defence

13 counsel, if you have had disclosed to you for the purposes of the trial a

14 document, then that document may be used by you. If you don't have it and

15 you want it, the original, you should let the Prosecution know so that

16 they can provide it. It may be that they will be content for us to use

17 the electronic version that is in the system when you want to use it.

18 Does that answer your question?

19 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for these

20 instructions. This will be of great assistance to the Defence because so

21 far, during cross-examination of one of the witnesses, a document like

22 that was used, but we didn't ask for a clarification at the time. We

23 would not wish, however, to proceed too far with this manner of using the

24 documents without receiving guidelines about what is possible and what is

25 not. Thank you very much. Now I would like to start with the

Page 1234

1 cross-examination of the witness, if you allow me.

2 Cross-examined by Ms. Tapuskovic:

3 Q. Madam, good afternoon, or good evening, I am Mira Tapuskovic, and

4 I am the co-counsel for the accused Miroslav Radic in this case. I would

5 like to ask you some questions this evening and I would ask the same thing

6 that my colleague Mr. Miroslav Vasic asked you and that is to speak slowly

7 because it is very important both for you and me to make sure that we do

8 not overlap because of the microphone so that we do not violate the

9 security or the protection measures that you have been granted.

10 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like at the

11 beginning of my cross-examination of this witness to move into private

12 session briefly because I would like to abide by the request of my learned

13 friend from the Prosecution whenever we are discussing the profession of

14 the witness, to do it in private session. Thank you.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1235











11 Page 1235 redacted. Private session.















Page 1236











11 Page 1236 redacted. Private session.















Page 1237











11 Page 1237 redacted. Private session.















Page 1238

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

15 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Can you please tell us, after 1995, did you have any further

17 contacts with the OTP representatives?

18 A. No.

19 Q. How did you then find out that you would have to testify in this

20 trial?

21 A. I had no contacts with them from 1995 until now, when this trial

22 started. Then they called me and told me that I would testify in this

23 trial.

24 Q. Madam, I asked you when.

25 A. I don't know when. Some months ago. I don't know when.

Page 1239

1 Q. Would you please try and be more specific. Some months ago could

2 be two, five, or seven months ago.

3 A. Well, specifically the first time they called me to say that I

4 would testify was this summer. I know that for a fact. Perhaps it was

5 mid-July but I couldn't be more specific about the date. It was then.

6 And then later on --

7 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Madam. Please tell me, how did the

8 Prosecution establish contact with you?

9 A. They called me on the phone.

10 Q. Did you then meet with any OTP representatives?

11 A. No.

12 Q. What were you told on the telephone?

13 A. That three people from Vukovar, accused for war crimes in Vukovar,

14 or I don't know how they termed it, something like that, they said that

15 they were in The Hague or something like that, and then they said that the

16 trial would start in 2005 and that I would be a witness here.

17 Q. Madam, in July of 2005, they told you that the trial would start

18 in 2005? Is that what you're trying to tell us?

19 A. Yes, that's what I'm trying to tell you, yes. In 2005 there would

20 be a trial. I don't know. I can't explain this any better. I simply

21 didn't try to remember the dates when they called me. At any rate, they

22 just informed me that there would be a trial and that I would testify.

23 Q. So you can't tell us more specifically when they called you?

24 A. Well, they called me this summer. They definitely called me this

25 summer.

Page 1240

1 Q. Thank you, Madam. I did my best, both during your

2 examination-in-chief, when you were examined by my learned friend from the

3 Prosecution, and during cross-examination when you were examined by

4 Mr. Vasic, I tried to note down all of the instances when you were unable

5 to remember the dates, and, to tell you the truth, I was unable to manage

6 it. I was unable to keep track of that. But I will continue trying to do

7 my best.

8 When asked by Mr. Vasic, you told us that you never met here

9 Mrs. Bosanac and other witnesses. How come you know that these people

10 were here in The Hague as witnesses?

11 A. On television, they reported that Dr. Vesna Bosanac would be the

12 first witness to testify in this case. I was still at home when I heard

13 that.

14 Q. You said that you didn't meet her here.

15 A. No.

16 Q. When you talked here with the representatives of the OTP, my

17 learned friend from the Prosecution did not contradict this statement that

18 you have been here for 10 days, which is something that my colleague Vasic

19 alleged. But you did talk to him during one day?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell us what day it was?

22 A. Maybe Thursday.

23 Q. That day of the week, do you remember the date?

24 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know what date it is today.

25 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us how many hours this interview lasted

Page 1241

1 when you met with the OTP representatives here?

2 A. One hour, one hour ten minutes, something like that.

3 Q. Can you describe to us the course of that conversation or

4 interview?

5 A. Mostly -- I don't know how to explain the course. Mostly it was

6 questions and then I said something similar to what I stated in 1995.

7 Q. I will try to assist you, Madam. Did they put questions to you or

8 did you simply start explaining things on your own?

9 A. I started talking, just as I'm talking about the events that I

10 experienced.

11 Q. Madam, this is what you said in 1995. This is the story you gave

12 in 1995. Did somebody put any questions to you before you started

13 talking?

14 A. Well, we started --

15 Q. How did you start?

16 A. Well, we started from 1991 and what happened then and I don't know

17 what else.

18 Q. No. How did the conversation begin, the conversation between you

19 and the OTP representatives?

20 A. Well, it started normally, just as we discussed things today.

21 Q. So you talked to the OTP representatives today as well?

22 A. No, no. I meant my testimony. I'm testifying today.

23 Q. Madam, is this a conversation or a testimony?

24 A. Testimony.

25 Q. So is it your evidence that you didn't talk to the Prosecution

Page 1242

1 today?

2 A. Well, when would I be talking to the Prosecution today?

3 Q. Madam, I have to remind you that you are under oath.

4 A. I am. And I'm telling you everything I know. You're trying to

5 confuse me. You're doing everything to confuse me.

6 Q. Madam, this is the last thing on my mind. I do not want to

7 confuse you.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma?

9 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour. The witness is confused here

10 and is those questions really relevant to the specific case, what happened

11 in the hospital?

12 JUDGE PARKER: They are relevant to credit, Mrs. Tuma, and I think

13 they are being advanced on that basis.

14 But I think it's fair to say, Mrs. Tapuskovic, that by and large,

15 you've made your point in this field. We've got the message and you could

16 be encouraged to move on fairly soon to something that's nearer the issue

17 in this case.

18 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very

20 much. I will comply with your instructions fully, but let me just

21 reiterate that never once did I want to confuse this witness. I simply

22 wanted to verify some data or, rather, the circumstances under which the

23 corrections were made, the corrections which were given to us just a few

24 hours before the witness started testifying. Now I will turn to some

25 other topics. Thank you.

Page 1243

1 Q. In your statement given in 1995, you said that the artillery

2 attacks were launched in Negoslavci. Tell us, when did these artillery

3 attacks start?

4 A. In August.

5 Q. Was it at the time when you already moved to the hospital or not?

6 (redacted)

7 Q. So that means that these attacks started before mid-August?

8 A. They started on the 24th of August. After that time I was unable

9 to go to work.

10 Q. All right. So the bombing of Vukovar started on the 24th of

11 August?

12 A. Perhaps it started earlier, but after that date it was impossible

13 to move about. The buses were not running any more and I was unable to go

14 to work.

15 Q. Madam, if I were to tell you that the hospital director,

16 Mrs. Vesna Bosanac, and the chief nurse of the surgery ward, Mrs. Binazija

17 Kolesar, and another protected witness in this trial, stated that the

18 bombing of Vukovar started on the 25th --

19 A. What significance does one day have?

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 A. I don't celebrate my birthdays and I remember that it was the

23 24th. We came to work and we had to go back home, and after that we

24 didn't work any more.

25 Q. I assume you have no military training.

Page 1244

1 A. I do not.

2 Q. The only schooling you have is this school you completed. I would

3 rather not repeat the name of the school in order not to compromise your

4 identity.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. On Thursday, during examination-in-chief, on page 74, line 24, you

7 said that the entire time you were in the hospital, which is just over two

8 months, to be precise, two months and five days, were spent in the atomic

9 shelter?

10 A. Yes. Mostly in the basement. I really don't distinguish between

11 the atomic shelter and the basement. The atomic shelter is underground as

12 well.

13 Q. Thank you. Throughout that time while you were in the shelter,

14 atomic shelter or in the basement, were shellings continued?

15 A. Yes. There were daily shellings.

16 Q. Can you tell us where was the town shelled from, from what

17 direction?

18 A. Yes, I can. From Negoslavci. Mostly from there. And from

19 Petrova Gora. Petrova Gora constitutes a part of Vukovar.

20 Q. Can you tell us, please, how do you know about that since you were

21 spending all of your time in the basement?

22 A. That was before I went down into the basement. A shell launched

23 from Petrova Gora fell on my garage.

24 Q. Fell on your garage?

25 A. Yes, the garage, the house. There was shrapnel all over the place

Page 1245

1 causing damage. I was in the house that time.

2 Q. I'm talking about the period of time when you were no longer

3 leaving the atomic shelter or the basement. How could you tell at that

4 time where the artillery fire was coming from?

5 A. It was coming from all over. Hundreds of shells landed every day.

6 Thousands of shells landed on Vukovar every day.

7 Q. You must have heard this from someone, that these shells were

8 falling since you never left the basement. Who toll you this?

9 A. I saw it. I experienced it.

10 Q. Can you tell us exactly what you saw?

11 A. The hospital yard, the streets, I saw all of that. I was there

12 for so long and perhaps every now and then I would emerge just to see what

13 was going on outside from where I was in the basement. You could hear the

14 planes flying overhead. You could hear their sounds with perfect clarity

15 even in the basement.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now use the

18 E-Court system to show the witness Exhibit number 48? And could the

19 witness kindly take a pen and then we shall make a joint effort to draw

20 something on that drawing.

21 Q. Madam, you will receive instructions and questions from me in due

22 course. Please try to answer the questions by drawing. We shall

23 certainly be requiring the assistance of Mr. Usher, too.

24 Madam, can you see in front of you a kind of hand-made drawing or

25 sketch?

Page 1246

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber, do you recognise what this

3 sketch shows?

4 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I perhaps ask the usher to

5 please zoom in? It's a very pale image and if we zoom in a little,

6 perhaps the witness will be able to see more clearly. Thank you.

7 Q. Madam, do you see what this sketch is supposed to represent?

8 A. I see the kitchen here and these four could be rooms in the

9 hospital or something.

10 Q. Does this sketch give you any idea of what sort of a facility or

11 building we are talking about here?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You don't actually recognise this as a sketch, a ground plan of

14 the hospital?

15 A. Yes, now I do see that.

16 Q. But you only realised once I've told you what it was. Thank you.

17 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It is quite obvious,

18 Your Honours, that the witness has not identified the sketch as the

19 hospital so I will no longer be using it. But by your leave I would like

20 to do now what you allowed me to do at the outset of my cross-examination,

21 that is to use OTP exhibits pursuant to Rule 65 ter, documents disclosed

22 under Rule 65 ter.

23 If I could have the usher's assistance, please, now, to display on

24 our screens Exhibit 224 pursuant to 65 ter, the 65 ter list of the

25 Prosecutor. This is a set containing 12 photographs showing the hospital.

Page 1247

1 If we could please have the document number 0053-1257? Can we please show

2 the witness the third photograph in the sequence? As far as I know, that

3 is the first photograph in the set, the colour photographs. I apologise

4 for the way I'm standing or, rather, bending, but that's because I have to

5 see the image too and it's right behind my lectern.

6 Q. Madam, do you see the photograph on your screen?

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please blow it up

9 a little?

10 Q. Do you recognise this building?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Will you please tell the Trial Chamber what building is this?

13 A. This is not the main facade of the hospital. This is from the

14 inner court.

15 Q. But there building is the hospital, isn't it?

16 A. Yes. But this building is intact.

17 Q. But that's not my question. I'm asking you if this is the

18 hospital. Madam do you perhaps have problems because the light is

19 refracted in a funny way on your scene so you can't see it properly?

20 A. Yes, I can see it.

21 Q. So is this building the Vukovar Hospital?

22 A. I would have to look at it from the entrance, the way it's shown

23 here, this might as well be any other building in Vukovar because they all

24 look alike.

25 Q. But Madam, does this remind you of the Vukovar Hospital,

Page 1248

1 regardless of the angle?

2 A. For me, the angle is very important because Elektroslavonija in

3 Vukovar also looks like this. There are lots of buildings looking like

4 this in Vukovar so the angle is essential.

5 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If I could have the usher's

6 assistance, please, I would like to slow the witness photograph number 5.

7 We have number 6 on the screen now but this is perfectly acceptable for

8 the purposes of this examination.

9 Q. Madam, do you recognise this photograph, or rather, this building?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell us what it is?

12 JUDGE PARKER: Could I mention that the transcript notes "6," at

13 line 19, and I believe you said number 5. Is that correct? The

14 photograph number 5?

15 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's an excellent

16 observation but for a while the screen was showing photograph number 6

17 when I looked at the screen and that's why I referred to photograph number

18 6, just in order no ascertain for the record that the photograph being

19 shown was not the one that I had requested. At any rate, all these

20 photographs suit my purpose, the purpose of this line of questioning.

21 Q. Madam, can you please tell us what this building is?

22 A. This should be the hospital.

23 Q. Let me help you along, if I may. I will tell you that this is the

24 Vukovar Hospital?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1249

1 Q. Would you then accept that this is the hospital?

2 A. Yes, it is. But while it was still intact.

3 Q. If you look at this photograph, can you determine whether the

4 photograph was taken before the events in Vukovar or is this a photograph

5 of the renovated, rebuilt hospital?

6 A. I no longer live in Vukovar and I have no idea what the renovated

7 or rebuilt hospital looks like.

8 Q. Perhaps, then, you could tell us whether this is the way the

9 hospital looked before the war?

10 A. Before the war, yes. It looked like this. It looked similar.

11 Maybe not all the details tally, but ...

12 Q. In your statement to the OTP, you said that the Red Cross signs

13 were displayed in the yard and on the hospital roof. Could you now please

14 use the pen given to you by Mr. Usher - thank you - try to use it in order

15 to mark on this photograph the spots, where according to your recollection

16 the Red Cross signs used to be? Can you please use the pen to mark that?

17 JUDGE PARKER: Are you asking the witness to mark the screen?

18 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE PARKER: That does not show up electronically, I'm afraid.

20 All you'll be doing is marking and damaging that particular screen but

21 nothing will show for anybody else.

22 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are still trying

23 to find our way around this new E-Court system. However, the witness is

24 pointing at something and for the sake of the record --

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tapuskovic, I am told that it -- we may have

Page 1250

1 got the system to the point where that can actually now be done. When we

2 started the trial, I understood that couldn't be. But we can try that, as

3 you were suggesting, and see if it can work and, if it does, there could

4 be an electronic picture taken of what is marked.

5 Mrs. Tuma?

6 MS. TUMA: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. Before marking or -- I

7 would like to ask the Defence if they could clarify when this photo is

8 taken.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. It's your photograph, though,

10 Mrs. Tuma.

11 MS. TUMA: Yes, I'm absolutely aware of that but while the Defence

12 is using is -- and putting questions to the witness in order for her to

13 clarify or to answer questions, then I should is -- suppose that the

14 Defence should know what year at least the photo is taken in order perhaps

15 to have a correct answer.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Well, whether or not the Defence knows, it would

17 appear to the Chamber to be important that the witness be told. She has

18 more than once so far indicated her concern that this is showing an intact

19 hospital, or an intact building.

20 Do you happen to know the year, Mrs. Tapuskovic? If not, I'll ask

21 Mrs. Tuma.

22 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this photograph and

23 similar photographs have already been tendered during the testimony of

24 Binazija Kolesar. These photographs belong to the same 12-photograph set,

25 from Prosecution Exhibit 224. The Defence does not know when, unless we

Page 1251

1 went back to the 65 ter list, which we have available in the system. But

2 the same sort of question was asked by my friend from the OTP to the

3 witness or rather addressed to my colleague Mr. Borovic when --

4 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tapuskovic, my question was, can you indicate

5 in what year this photograph was taken? Are you able to help?

6 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I think it was taken in 1995,

7 possibly 1997. This is at least the information that the OTP provided us

8 with during the testimony of Ms. Binazija Kolesar.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. So that this is a photograph you

10 understand to be taken four or five or six years after the events of 1991

11 and at a time when it would appear that reconstruction was advanced or

12 completed. So it's showing a building substantially restored.

13 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour. I

14 just wanted to first get the witness to identify the building in the

15 photograph as the hospital and then the next thing would have been to ask

16 if this is perhaps the rebuilt hospital.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. You will no doubt now want to ask the witness

18 if she can identify the courtyard she spoke of and the other building that

19 she mentioned.

20 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. That was not

21 the line of questions that I had in mind. It was, rather, where we got

22 stuck because of technical matters, where we weren't sure whether we could

23 do it or not. But even so, once you had helped me with the explanation

24 that the technical possibility is now allowed us to mark things on the

25 image without damaging the original photograph, my intention was to

Page 1252

1 resolve this situation by having it stated for the benefit of the

2 transcript that on such and such a photograph, under such and such a

3 number, on the 65 ter list, Exhibit number 224, the witness, when

4 prompted, showed the roof as the spot in which the Red Cross sign had been

5 placed.

6 JUDGE PARKER: But haven't you first got to identify which

7 building she said the roof was -- the building which had the roof on which

8 the Red Cross sign was placed? I didn't understand her evidence to be

9 that this building was the building.

10 Mrs. Tuma?

11 MS. TUMA: Sorry to interrupt again, but just for information,

12 that photos were taken in July 1997.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

14 MS. TUMA: And if the line of the questioning from the Defence

15 side, photos from 1997, if that has any relevance to events taking place

16 in 1991.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Well, it will help the Chamber but importantly it

18 will help the witness to understand that this is not the building as it

19 was when she was there in 1991, that this is a building that we are

20 understanding now, some six years later, was in a state of substantial

21 repair from the damage done in 1991.

22 But returning to Mrs. Tapuskovic, do you understand the point I'm

23 making? I thought this witness described two places where there were Red

24 Cross signs. Am I correct in that?

25 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. That's correct,

Page 1253

1 Your Honour. Now I would like, in providing the explanation, not to

2 disclose the gist of my question and that is why I would like to be

3 allowed to ask the witness the question of whether she can show us on the

4 roof of the building where the Red Cross marking was?

5 JUDGE PARKER: Once you pose it like that, you are confusing, and

6 I think you can confuse the witness. Could I suggest you need to ask the

7 witness whether she can see in that photograph the places where the Red

8 Cross signs were displayed and proceed from there.

9 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, I

10 will try to formulate my question in that way.

11 Q. Madam, can you see and indicate on this photograph, indicate with

12 the pointer, the place where in 1991 the Red Cross sign could have been?

13 A. Not on this photograph, but on a different building that was the

14 old hospital, at the entrance to the hospital. At the main entrance to

15 the hospital, there was a sheet or a flag with the Red Cross sign. I

16 didn't see that on this photograph and I cannot say, but these buildings,

17 these -- actually, this other building was not there, because during

18 the -- in the bombing, the first part of it was knocked down. So I don't

19 know, because I'm not there any more, but, in any case, it's not on this

20 photograph.

21 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Madam. What you're trying to say is that

22 at the time when you were in the hospital, the Red Cross mark was not on

23 the roof?

24 A. It was on the roof but not on this building that you are showing

25 me.

Page 1254

1 Q. Thank you very much. You've answered my question.

2 Can you tell us how much time your job took every day? How many

3 hours did you spend doing your volunteer work every day?

4 A. Mostly we were doing something the whole day. In the morning we

5 would make breakfast, then later we would make something for lunch.

6 Q. Well, Madam, you don't have to describe it because that can reveal

7 your identity. I was just asking about the number of hours that you

8 worked. Thank you. During the free time that you possibly had, how much

9 did you move around in the other rooms in the basement of the hospital?

10 A. Very little.

11 Q. I assume that most of your free time was spent in the room with

12 your husband; is that correct?

13 A. My husband was there, lying there as a wounded person. He was

14 lying where the other wounded people were.

15 Q. Thank you. So your husband was not in the same room as you?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Out of the 12 people who were in the room with you, were there any

18 wounded people there?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Can you tell us who were those people? Were there men there,

21 women, children?

22 A. It was mostly women.

23 Q. You described the incident in your statement with the patient who

24 had a bomb drop between his legs. Did you see that personally?

25 A. I personally saw that, and I know that patient. I know his first

Page 1255

1 and last name.

2 Q. Can you tell me, at the time when the bomb dropped, was anyone

3 else there in the room?

4 A. Unfortunately, he was lying in the corridor. There was no room in

5 the rooms. He was lying on a bed in the corridor. He had a plaster cast

6 on his leg, and this big bomb dropped between his legs because his legs

7 were spread.

8 Q. Can you please tell me whether your husband was operated on or did

9 he go -- undergo any surgical procedure?

10 A. He was wounded in the neck so they were trying to stop the

11 bleeding there.

12 Q. My question was: Was he -- did he undergo any surgical procedure?

13 A. He had stitches done. I don't know. I mean, are you -- you

14 think -- are you thinking of that time when he was wounded?

15 Q. Was that surgical procedure or was this just an outpatient

16 intervention?

17 A. Well, I don't know. I wasn't there when he was brought to the

18 hospital.

19 Q. Do you know whether your husband was given anaesthesia?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So after that, very quickly your husband was fit?

22 A. Not very quickly. My husband was lying in a hospital bed until

23 the very last day.

24 Q. So throughout the whole two-month period your husband was lying in

25 bed because of a neck wound?

Page 1256

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether, at that time, other than that

3 wounded person with the plaster cast who had a bomb drop between his legs,

4 do you know if there were other Serbs in the hospital?

5 A. He was a Serb also. Yes, there were Serbs.

6 Q. Were the Serbs separate?

7 A. No.

8 Q. So there was no difference in terms of where they were placed?

9 A. Whoever was wounded and brought to the hospital, he would be

10 accommodated somewhere. It wasn't great accommodation but there would be

11 a bed, a mobile bed, some place. People were put somewhere and they were

12 given medical treatment when they arrived.

13 Q. And, Madam, what would you say if I were to tell you that the

14 director of the hospital, Mrs. Vesna Bosanac, and the chief nurse,

15 Binazija Kolesar, said here, when they were witnesses, that Serbs were

16 kept in separate rooms? Would you accept that as a possibility?

17 A. No. I would not.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 JUDGE PARKER: I would just point out that the evidence was that

20 the Serb military were kept separate, not necessarily other Serb patients.

21 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct. Thank you,

22 Your Honour.

23 Q. Madam, could you please tell us if you know who Mr. Raseta is?

24 A. I heard of him on TV.

25 Q. Could you please tell us when you heard of him on the television?

Page 1257

1 A. Well, I don't know. During the war. I don't know. I heard the

2 last name Raseta on TV. I don't know anything more.

3 Q. Did you hear that during combat operations?

4 A. I heard of Raseta in 1990 [as interpreted] or 1992, 1993.

5 Actually, before the war. But during the war we didn't have television.

6 Q. You not in your statement and also a soldier named Sasa -- I asked

7 you if you remember any soldier called Sasa?

8 A. Yes. I remember that they said that there was a wounded Serb

9 soldier, he was taken to a room somewhere, and that he was being treated.

10 That's what was said. I don't know anything more about Sasa.

11 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me just see.

12 I'm being informed that there is a mistake in the transcript. It's on

13 page 79, line 19, the witness did not mention 1990, but there is 1990 in

14 the transcript. Thank you.

15 Q. In your statement to the Prosecution, you mentioned that the

16 soldier named Sasa talked with General Raseta. Now you said that you do

17 not remember hearing of General Raseta in later. What is the correct

18 information, Madam?

19 A. This was something that was talked about in the hospital, that

20 Sasa was calling General Raseta to tell him not to shell the hospital,

21 that he was in that hospital, that there were wounded, injured people

22 there. That's what it was.

23 Q. You told us earlier that you heard of Raseta on the television in

24 1992 for the first time.

25 A. I heard of him for the first time in 1992. Perhaps I'd heard of

Page 1258

1 him earlier in these stories. I mean, you asked me if I knew Raseta. I

2 don't know Raseta. I had heard of him but when you start with the dates,

3 then I really cannot -- cannot hold all of these dates in my head. It's

4 all mixed up, the dates, the years.

5 Q. You say that everything is mixed up, the dates, the years. Can

6 you please tell us, then, how you knew exactly on the 31st, when you spoke

7 with the Prosecution, the exact dates when certain things took place? Did

8 the Prosecution remind you of these dates?

9 A. No, they didn't remind me. The things that have to do with me

10 personally are things that I remember very well. And this Raseta and this

11 soldier Sasa, what do they mean to me? The dates which I keep in my head,

12 those dates I will recall for as long as I live.

13 Q. But these dates which you say you will remember as long as you

14 live, actually, are the dates where you made mistakes. On Thursday, on

15 page 77, lines 2 and 3, you said that you didn't know exactly when the

16 shelling stopped, the 17th, 18th or the 19th. These are not relevant

17 dates for you?

18 A. They are very relevant to me. It stopped on the day when the

19 Yugoslav People's Army stopped shooting, and it stopped shooting during

20 all of those dates, on the 17th, the 18th and the 19th, there was no more

21 shooting then.

22 Q. So could you please tell us, then, which day did the shooting

23 stop?

24 A. I didn't know what date it was then. I don't even know now.

25 Q. Thank you very much, Madam. You've given me the answer.

Page 1259

1 Did you see any of the staff members of the hospital, any of the

2 patients, any of the injured people, see carrying weapons?

3 A. No, I did not.

4 Q. You know that there was talk in the hospital that there were

5 weapons?

6 A. Well, there can be all kinds of talk, but I didn't hear anything

7 or see anything.

8 Q. Can you please tell us if there was security at the hospital?

9 Hospital has security.

10 A. Well, I didn't see them either.

11 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now ask to

12 go into private session for a moment.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1260

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see that we have

18 two minutes left. I'm going to just put a very short question because I

19 would like to finish today and not to leave the end of the

20 cross-examination until tomorrow.

21 Q. Could you please tell us how long did it take for you to leave the

22 room where you were sleeping or you spent the night until you reached the

23 courtyard?

24 A. Perhaps about 15 minutes.

25 Q. How long is that corridor?

Page 1261

1 A. It's long. It's below ground-level. You had to pass through the

2 whole courtyard and then get to the entrance of the new hospital building.

3 I don't know how long it was. Perhaps it was some 50 metres long, maybe

4 more, something like that.

5 Q. And I have one more question. The soldier in this corridor from

6 the room where you were, to the entrance, whom did he tell that Serbs

7 should be separated to one side and Croats to the other? Who was this

8 addressed to?

9 A. This is not a good question. The soldier didn't say anything.

10 The doctor was telling the soldier. The doctor was telling the soldier.

11 He was walking around where the patients were because they were lying both

12 on one side and on the other side, so because he was a doctor he knew, of

13 course. He was from Vukovar. The military personnel were not from

14 Vukovar. The doctor was. So he was saying, "This is our man, and this is

15 not" about people.

16 Q. When you were explaining what happened with Martin Dosen in

17 response to Mr. Vasic's question, you said that these were men or people

18 from Vukovar, the people who were taking him out. Is this true?

19 A. No, I didn't say it like that. In my statement, it says that I

20 saw such and such Vukovar people and I mentioned their first and last

21 names. But these soldiers who were carrying Martin Dosen out, I don't

22 know who they were. They threw him down over there. That's what I saw.

23 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have

24 no further questions for this witness.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mrs. Tapuskovic for finishing in so

Page 1262

1 little time. We will need to adjourn now and evidence will continue

2 tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning. We move now to morning sessions for the

3 rest of the week. So we adjourn now until 9.00 a.m.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m., to

5 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day of November,

6 2005, at 9.00 a.m.