1 Tuesday, 29 November 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, Mrs. Foro. If I could remind you of
7 the affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence, which still
9 Mr. Domazet.
10 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you, Your Honour.
11 [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone.
12 WITNESS: SARLOTA FORO [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Domazet: [Continued]
15 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Foro. I'll continue with my questions. Madam,
16 while you lived in Belgrade with your parents, given the fact that you
17 were only 1 year old when you moved, and you remember that, which part of
18 Belgrade did you live in and did you move within Belgrade at any time?
19 A. The first place we moved to was the neighbourhood known as New
20 Belgrade. My address was the Lenin Boulevard. I first moved when I
21 started going to university. This might have been sometime back in 1982
22 or 1983. I then lived in a different neighbourhood behind the film city;
23 that's on the opposite side of Belgrade.
24 Q. When you say "I lived, I started studying," I assume that you
25 moved and lived with your parents and that the flat belonged to your
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Would I be right in saying that the first flat that you lived in
4 and probably the next one, too, were obtained or given to you to use by
5 the JNA, your father's employer?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. This new relocation was probably to a bigger and better flat?
8 A. Yes, quite right.
9 Q. Did your parents stay in that second flat behind the area known as
10 the film city all the way until 1991?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell me what became of that flat. Did your father
13 eventually buy it or whatever happened?
14 A. A gentleman moved in, another JNA officer, who left Zagreb for
15 Belgrade at the same time. He moved into that flat by force, which I only
16 found out later after I'd been exchanged and when I arrived in Zagreb in
17 late December and early January.
18 Q. That's all very well, but my question is: What's the ownership?
19 Does the flat still belong to your parents, no matter who happens to be
20 living in it?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Can you please explain what that means, that your father is not
23 the owner or simply no longer resides there?
24 A. No. He was never the owner of that flat. He didn't buy the flat
25 because it was impossible under the law in the former Yugoslavia for JNA
1 flats. You had tenancy rights and if you were the occupant of a flat
2 those were the rights you enjoyed.
3 Q. Yes, but those who had the tenancy rights were normally in a
4 position to buy the flat normally at much lower rates than they would be
5 on the open market and most people did just that. Are you absolutely
6 certain that your father was not one of them?
7 A. Yes, I'm positive. At that time in the JNA you could only buy the
8 flat off once you were about to retire and you were thinking that this was
9 your last move.
10 Q. Yes, but that was my understanding of our situation. Your father
11 was about to retire.
12 A. Yes, the process of his retirement had begun.
13 Q. Did your mother have a job, too, during your stay in Belgrade?
14 A. No. My mother used to work while they still lived back in
15 Vukovar. She tried to get a job in Belgrade. She kept trying for about
16 ten years but consistently failed.
17 Q. If I understand you correctly, throughout your stay in Belgrade,
18 in your case that amounts to about 23 years, you all lived off your
19 father's salary?
20 A. Yes, off my father's work, I would say.
21 Q. You mentioned that your parents moved in May 1991. Was that
22 before or after the incident in Borovo Selo?
23 A. Excuse me, who is the question about? Can you please clarify.
24 Q. I'm pausing for the sake of the transcript.
25 So my question was: You mentioned that your parents moved back to
1 Vukovar in May 1991. Was that before or after the incident that you
2 remember in Borovo Selo, which occurred in that same month?
3 A. I think that was just before, perhaps days before. We were in the
4 middle of the May holidays. Everybody was off work, and it was just
5 before that that they had arrived back in Vukovar.
6 Q. Your father arrived around holiday time in May. Did he ever go
7 back to Belgrade after that?
8 A. I don't think so.
9 Q. He continued to receive his JNA officer's salary, didn't he; and
10 if so, how?
11 A. I don't know about that. I think he was using cheques of some
12 sort to withdraw his salary whenever it came.
13 Q. Following their arrival in Vukovar, your father and mother
14 continued to live off that salary; they had no other jobs?
15 A. My mother and father lived off their work their entire lives.
16 You're talking about living off some salary or rather that they were
17 receiving. My father earned that salary. He was a violin teacher and he
18 worked with an orchestra for 35 years. He earned every penny. Every
19 penny he got he earned.
20 Q. Madam, when I was talking about his salary, obviously I don't mean
21 getting money for nothing. It goes without saying your father earned his
22 salary. I believe we understand each other quite well in fact, despite
23 the appearances. But your mother was a housewife throughout, and I'm
24 asking you, the situation was the same after they returned to Vukovar.
25 Was the situation the same in terms of you living off that one salary that
1 your father earned as a JNA officer?
2 A. Yes, but only until the conflict broke out. After that point in
3 time, you could no longer receive that salary. It lasted for maybe a
4 month or two.
5 Q. I will ask you about something else now. Do you remember that
6 Croatia after the elections in December 1990 amended its constitution? Is
7 this something you remember?
8 A. Yes. I remember it as a fact; the constitution was indeed
10 Q. Do you remember that after these amendments and the new
11 constitution, Serbs in Croatia ceased to be a constituent group, as indeed
12 they had been under the previous constitution? They were - to use a term
13 widely used at the time - thrown out of the constitution; and this was
14 actually the first time that tensions began to mount between the two
15 ethnic groups?
16 A. I must say this yet again: I am no constitutional expert or
17 lawyer, for that matter.
18 Q. But do you remember this as something that was a problem very much
19 in the public eye at the time, especially for the Serbs? This was an
20 important issue at the time, a much debated one, and also it was one of
21 the things that triggered tensions in Croatia. Serbs were worried what
22 would come of them after the constitution was adopted. Do you remember
24 A. Look, I lived in Belgrade for 24 years. I never felt very
25 constituent there myself, constituent in Serbia or constituent in terms of
1 Yugoslavia. I am no expert. I am no constitutional expert, but in my
2 understanding the constitution was in keeping with all the standards,
3 constitutional standards, that prevailed in Europe at the time.
4 Q. Do you remember the fact that the Serbs were thrown out, as it
5 were, of the constitution? They were no longer even referred to in the
6 preamble of the constitution as a constituent ethnic group living in
7 Croatia. I think that applied much more to Serbs than it applied to
8 Croats. I hope you will at least agree with that.
9 A. I will agree that there weren't that many Croats living in Serbia.
10 I'm sorry. What was the question, that the Serbs were thrown out? Is
11 that what you said?
12 Q. Yes, from the new constitution.
13 A. They weren't thrown out. You said it yourself after all, they
14 ceased to be a constituent ethnic group in Croatia, that was all.
15 Q. Thank you. You spoke about the National Guards Corps as a
16 military unit, as the Croatian armed forces. You were able to see the
17 members of the National Guards Corps yourself frequently. Can you tell me
18 something about the sort of uniform that they were wearing, the sort of
19 weapons that we were carrying, and who they got the weapons from?
20 A. Unfortunately I can't answer all these questions, but I can answer
21 the ones that I know. They were wearing camouflage uniforms and they had
22 this check-board insignia which is also displayed on the Croatian national
23 coat of arms and flag. I have no idea who they got their weapons from,
24 nor did I ever want to know. But for the most part, they had light
25 weapons, that is rifles.
1 Q. Did they have any heavy weapons in Vukovar, I mean heavier or more
2 powerful weapons than the ones you've just mentioned?
3 A. I heard that there were other weapons along the front line, but
4 they were short of ammunition. They had mortars some sort, or at least
5 that's what I heard at the time, not very powerful ones, and no ammunition
6 to use. And they only fired very seldom for these reasons.
7 Q. Did they have anti-aircraft weapons in Vukovar, for example?
8 A. Not that I knew of.
9 Q. Did you perhaps hear or see that on the 24th of August that year,
10 JNA air force plane was shot down right above Vukovar? It must be
11 something you heard at the time, isn't it?
12 A. Yes, I heard about this, but I think people were saying that it
13 hadn't been anti-aircraft weapons being used in order to shoot that plane
14 down but something much simpler, a simpler kind of weapon.
15 Q. You're suggesting the plane was shot down by something that was
16 not an anti-aircraft weapon?
17 A. Yes, I think that's what I heard at the time.
18 Q. Did they shoot down one or two planes on that day? Do you know
20 A. I think two, but I can't be certain.
21 Q. You spoke about the weapons that the National Guards Corps had,
22 you spoke about their uniforms with the chess board. Were they all
23 wearing the same sort of uniform and was this a distinguishing feature
24 between the ZNG and the police units that were in the area?
25 A. As far as I know, they all had uniforms, and those that did were
1 ZNG members.
2 Q. Do you know how members were recruited by mobilisation, by
3 compulsory mobilisation, or was there a different method being used?
4 A. I think there was no compulsory mobilisation. People tended to
5 join as volunteers.
6 Q. You spoke about the fact that you were able to distinguish regular
7 JNA soldiers from members of the Territorial Defence, especially based on
8 how the latter often sported long hair and beards, unlike the JNA people.
9 Could you also apply this to the ZNG, the National Guards Corps? Did
10 their members also sport long beards and hair, or did they, much like JNA
11 soldiers, have to be clean-shaven and orderly?
12 A. I never noticed that ZNG members were anything less than orderly.
13 They were, in fact, as orderly as was possible at the time under those
15 Q. I don't take long hair and long beard to be something that is
16 slovenly. I'm just saying ab the standards that were applied for a while.
17 I wouldn't apply long hair and long beards as slovenly. I'm merely
18 wondering if this was something allowed in the National Guards Corps
19 because, after all, you had ample opportunity to see their members and you
20 knew what they looked like?
21 A. You said yourself that for a while it wasn't allowed to wear a
22 beard in the JNA. Is it allowed now?
23 Q. I'm sure that at the time it still wasn't.
24 A. Then the answer is I didn't notice that the ZNG members were
25 slovenly, poorly dressed, that they had long hair or sported beards. I
1 noticed none of these. That's your answer. They certainly didn't go and
2 get their hair-do's done regularly.
3 Q. Do you know what HOS stood for at the time?
4 A. As far as I know HOS are Croatian defence forces. I think that's
5 what it stands for.
6 Q. Yes, that's right. Who were members of HOS and did they have an
7 image of -- or rather, was Ante Paraga their chief?
8 A. I don't know. I never saw such individuals, the ones described by
10 Q. Madam, I never described them for you. I would like you to do
11 that for us. I never saw them myself.
12 A. No, no, no, you did describe them. You said what they wore and
13 everything else. I never saw such people myself.
14 Q. I never described them, Madam. I just inquired whether you knew
15 about HOS and whether you knew about what that stood for. I never even
16 attempted to describe their members. I want you to do that, and I want
17 you to tell us what they wore.
18 A. No, I never saw members of HOS.
19 Q. Are you trying to say that throughout that time in Vukovar there
20 were no members of HOS defending Vukovar?
21 A. What I'm trying to say is that I never saw them.
22 Q. Based on your information, was that a paramilitary formation or
23 regular military force, similar to the ZNG?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. If you perhaps didn't know at the time, did you learn later or do
1 you know now what I just asked you about the members?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Yesterday you mentioned the Eltz castle, and as far as I know that
4 was both a monument and a museum.
5 A. Yes, that is the castle of Count Eltz.
6 Q. Yes, that's right. Do you know that for a while the ZNG staff was
7 housed precisely in that castle and that there were certain rockets
8 positioned there as well as Rams, and that this was a target?
9 A. No.
10 Q. We mentioned the downing of planes in Vukovar; you remembered that
11 event. Since another event happened at the same time, namely the event
12 which took place at the cemetery when a JNA tank came by, can you tell us
13 did this happen before or after the downing of the JNA planes?
14 A. No. I can't remember at all when the planes were shot down. I
15 know that the event at the cemetery took place at the end of August. I
16 remembered this very well because the JNA tank fired on civilians.
17 Q. You took that date as the date from which further on there were no
18 more funerals at the cemetery, so this is why I thought that perhaps you
19 would be able to remember what date it was when it happened.
20 A. I think that it was either on the 25th or 26th of August, but I'm
21 not sure.
22 Q. Thank you. So if the planes were shot down on the 24th of August,
23 this is the information that I have, then that would mean that the planes
24 were shot down before the cemetery incident. Would you agree with me?
25 A. If that's how it was, then that's how it was. If this is the
1 information you have and if it's accurate, then yes.
2 Q. I have something else I want to ask you about the incident with
3 the tank. You said that the tank moved and fired on civilians or in the
4 direction of civilians. Was there infantry accompanying the tank or some
5 soldiers or any other force moving with the tank, or was there just the
6 tank there when it opened fire?
7 A. I mostly tried to shield myself away from the tank fire, so I
8 didn't really analyse it in detail. What I can confirm is that we spent
9 two hours at the cemetery in a small house there, while the tank
10 devastated all of the buildings around the cemetery. After we tried to
11 escape, there were 10 to 12 of us, including families, the ones I've
12 mentioned, those who got killed in the castle after -- I don't know what
13 it was, whether it was shelling or whether the missiles were fired on the
14 castle, but after that we started running towards the woods, the closest
15 woods, next to the cemetery while the tank kept firing at us. I remember
16 this well because the tank was firing on civilians. I didn't see anybody
17 else but us there. The woods was apparently mined. The mines had been
18 placed there, and we had to run through the woods to reach the nearest
20 Q. You said that the tank destroyed some buildings, some houses at
21 the cemetery. What kind of houses were there?
22 A. Morgue, morgue buildings. The bodies that had been brought in
23 from the Eltz castle, once we left that building, which was in the depth
24 of the cemetery, we could see that these bodies were destroyed by the tank
25 grenades, including all of the buildings which were there, a morgue, the
1 little house which served as a flower shop and also sold funeral
3 Q. Does that mean that these people, after all, were not buried at
4 the cemetery?
5 A. Yes, that means that they were not buried and that they were blown
6 to pieces and it was impossible to pick the pieces.
7 Q. Did you know or do you know Alenka Mirkovic, a journalist in radio
9 A. I didn't know her but I heard her reports on the radio.
10 Q. Can you tell me what was your view of her reports? Was it
11 objective, unbiased, or not?
12 A. As far as I know, she reported on the extent of the shelling in
13 town, how many buildings were destroyed, how many civilians were killed.
14 As far as I know, her reporting was unbiased.
15 Q. Thank you. This lady as a radio journalist, somebody who reported
16 on what happened, said the following, and maybe you'll remember hearing
17 this on Radio Vukovar. She said that she managed to get to know the
18 infamous HOS members who came to the ruined buildings and then immediately
19 went to the positions in Sajmiste. It was so dangerous there that we
20 had -- we didn't dare go there, nor did they have the time to come to our
21 staff. It was said that they were quite unruly, that they listened only
22 to Paraga, and that once they defended Vukovar they would head on to
23 Zemun, and that they were called the killing machines. Later we heard
24 that they -- later, once we heard that they referred to them as
25 paramilitary formations, we were quite angered. Our HOS members held the
1 most difficult positions in town.
2 Do you remember hearing such reports and did you, in the meantime,
3 remember that members of HOS were defending Vukovar?
4 A. What I said was that I had never seen any HOS members, and I stand
5 by that. Sajmiste is not close to Mitnica. It is a part of the town, but
6 Mitnica is at the exit of the town and Sajmiste is elsewhere, and never
7 throughout the wartime did I visit Sajmiste. I think that on the map we
8 showed that these are two different parts of the town.
9 Q. In view of what you said, can you rule out the possibility, or
10 perhaps not, that members of HOS were positioned in Sajmiste and that they
11 did constitute Vukovar defence?
12 A. I can only testify about what I saw. Anybody can make inferences
13 that you're asking me to make now, anybody in the courtroom can do that.
14 Q. During the time when the Mitnica staff was housed in the basement
15 where you yourself where, did you know and can you tell us where the front
16 line was, the one facing the JNA, on that side. Was it close to that
18 A. You mean where the utility company was?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. No, it wasn't close. The utility company was in the centre of
21 Mitnica, and the demarcation line, if I can call it that, was near the
22 houses which were closest to the new cemetery.
23 Q. Based on that, one could say that this is where the front line
24 was. Is that right?
25 A. Since there was a JNA tank near the cemetery and some other
1 weaponry as well, as I heard later, then, yes, most likely it is that way.
2 Q. Could it be said that Mitnica was the forward front line or the
3 first one that one could encounter coming from the south?
4 A. Yes, one could say so. That is how it was at the time, because
5 all of the villages that had been occupied prior to that were places who
6 residents had been expelled and sent to camps.
7 Q. Do you know whether there was any direct combat, or was it mostly
8 a case of artillery fire? You also said that there was an attempt by the
9 JNA infantry to breakthrough. Do you remember when it was, if that is the
11 A. No, I don't remember. I remember that they attempted this on
12 three or four occasions, and that these attempts of the JNA infantry to
13 breakthrough were repelled.
14 Q. When the surrender negotiations started, surrender of the ZNG
15 members at Mitnica, you said yesterday that at the time there were about
16 180 of them. Is that right?
17 A. Yes. 180 members of the National Guards Corps, the ZNG.
18 Q. Then, on the 18th of November. And what about the prior to that,
19 during the combat that you described, there were probably many more of
20 them then. Am I right?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Does this mean that none of the ZNG members withdrew and went into
23 breakthrough, as they called it, leaving Vukovar before the 18th of
25 A. As far as I know, nobody from Mitnica did that.
1 Q. This figure of 180 members, how did you learn this, because this
2 is something that only the top echelons could know, commanders; not even
3 members of these units would know that figure?
4 A. I told you that after the war I worked in the department which
5 drew up lists and prepared material for the exchange of prisoners. This
6 is what I learned at the time. All of the combatants who had surrendered
7 their weapons were registered by the European monitors and International
8 Red Cross.
9 Q. If I understood you well, you learned about this figure later on
10 in Zagreb, and that's how you know this figure?
11 A. Yes, I learned about the exact figure later on.
12 Q. You said today and I think also yesterday that when the weapons
13 were surrendered, the European monitors registered or recorded the names
14 of people. How did they do that? Did you see this?
15 A. The surrender of weapons was taped on video. I saw these tapes
16 later on. A member of the International Red Cross stood there and
17 recorded names. I don't know how, but he just stood there and wrote down
18 the names of the people surrendering weapons.
19 Q. Did I understand you properly that you personally saw them as
20 their names were being written down by representatives of the
21 international community?
22 A. Well, I didn't go to the representative of the International Red
23 Cross and watch what he was doing. I was some metres away, and I looked
24 on as people handed in their weapons and a Red Cross representative was
25 standing by and evidently taking down their names.
1 Q. My question was whether you saw that personally or whether you
2 heard about that later?
3 A. No, I saw it myself.
4 Q. When you talked about the shelling and your visit to the hospital,
5 if I understood you properly yesterday you went there in order to see your
6 husband, because you said that you hadn't seen him for a while. Is that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I think that you said that practically all the buildings you saw
10 on your way to the hospital or on your way back from the hospital were,
11 according to you, destroyed, demolished to their foundations. Is that
13 A. At the beginning you said that we speak similar -- a similar
14 language, but obviously we do not understand each very well. I did not
15 say that all the buildings at that time were demolished to the
16 foundations. I said that the buildings were very much damaged, but they
17 were completely destroyed in November.
18 Q. Your description of the hospital which had been hit and quite
19 considerably damaged would seem to indicate that the hospital was not
20 destroyed in the same way that you described the other buildings being
21 destroyed later. Am I right?
22 A. I don't understand.
23 Q. You spoke about the damage on the hospital building, but the
24 hospital building was not completely destroyed at any point. Is that
1 A. What do you mean it was not completely destroyed? I don't
2 understand really. I don't understand what you are trying to prove. It
3 was damaged. It was shelled. It didn't have a roof. The walls were
4 knocked down. It didn't have windows, and it was completely out of
6 Q. When you talked about your departure from Vukovar and the column,
7 you said that your parents were in a car and that there were also some
8 other vehicles at the tail of the column and that you went to Ovcara
9 all -- in these vehicles. Could you please tell us, during such shelling
10 of the town and, as a result of the shelling, as you said, all the
11 buildings were knocked down, how was it possible that the road that you
12 were using and also on that day, how was it possible that you were able to
13 go in a column in those vehicles?
14 A. In my yard of my family house, there were three vehicles and this
15 is the only one that had survived. It was quite damaged, but it was
16 working. You could ignite the engine and it was serviceable. The other
17 two were completely destroyed.
18 Q. When you talked about your departure and that you went to Sremska
19 Mitrovica, for the first time yesterday you said something which you
20 didn't mention in your statement. You said that you were in prison. You
21 said yesterday that you were placed in a room, 90 of you, among whom there
22 was an elderly woman, an old woman of 90, and also some children, one of
23 them was 2 years old.
24 A. Yes, that is correct, but I just have to correct you. In my
25 statement that I provided in 1995, at the end of the statement I wrote
1 that from Ovcara I was taken to Sremska Mitrovica where I spent 18 days
2 and I was exchanged on the 5th of December. I don't know what you meant
3 when you read that part of my statement, because in Sremska Mitrovica,
4 it's obvious that that's not the place where there is a shopping centre.
5 Q. Yes, it's quite correct that you said that and that you were
6 transferred to Sremska Mitrovica, that you stayed there for 18 days, but
7 it wasn't said and even now it's not said that you were in prison because
8 Sremska Mitrovica is a town in Serbia. It's perhaps the size of Vukovar,
9 perhaps it's slightly larger. So Sremska Mitrovica is not only the
10 penitentiary which is outside of town, so it could have been assumed that
11 you were perhaps in some collection centre where there were other people
12 such as you until the time of the exchange. The prison was not mentioned
13 until yesterday. Is it possible that there was a room in this prison
14 where it was possible for 90 people to be?
15 A. People in a collection centre, people who live freely in a town do
16 not get exchanged. Secondly, it's possible that the room was not meant to
17 hold 90 people, but there were 90 of us in that room.
18 Q. You also said for the first time yesterday that you were
19 questioned several times during your stay there and that there was some
20 others who were asked to give statements but not all. Can you please
21 explain why some people were not called to make statements and you were
22 called and asked to give a statement.
23 A. This 90-year-old grandmother was not asked for a statement, and
24 neither was the child of 2. My mother was not asked to give a statement.
25 At the time she was an older woman of 50, but all the younger people, all
1 the women, were asked to give a statement -- actually, they were called
2 for interrogation, and, during the interrogation they had to hold their
3 hands on their back, they had to bow their heads and walk, accompanied by
4 the police, to the interrogation room.
5 Q. In the prison on the first day or second day after you arrived,
6 you had a meeting with the rector of the university, and then after you
7 had a meeting with the health minister of Croatia.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, after you left the
10 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]
11 Q. And you started to work on lists of missing persons and lists of
12 victims. Did this only refer to the people who were missing from Vukovar,
13 the people who were missing from the hospital, or missing persons
14 generally throughout Croatia and perhaps even from Bosnia and Herzegovina?
15 A. Our work mainly concerned people who were captured and disappeared
16 from the entire territory of Croatia. At the time, the biggest
17 humanitarian crisis was in Vukovar, so most of our work actually had to do
18 with that part of Croatia.
19 Q. But you worked on lists of missing persons and victims from the
20 whole territory of Croatia. Did you work on such lists relating to people
21 from Bosnia and Herzegovina or not?
22 A. No, I don't recall working on any material that had anything to do
23 with Bosnia, except when we started to collect statements on violations of
24 international humanitarian law from refugees who were accommodated in
25 Croatia, so that amongst other things they testified about violations of
1 international humanitarian law and crimes committed on the territory of
2 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
3 Q. Did you work on drafting a report to the commission of the
4 Security Council, a report which Croatia handed in in January 1993?
5 A. I'm sorry, to whom? To the UN?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. I think that I did work on a part of it that referred to
8 detainees, the missing persons, and generally the part that dealt with the
9 humanitarian issues.
10 Q. In view of what you said, were you also working on the problems of
11 missing Serbs in Croatia, and is there anything about that in that report?
12 A. My task was to collect statements from persons who were reporting
13 missing persons. All those who came to the office to report a missing
14 person were asked to give a statement.
15 Q. And was that the only source of your information for compiling
16 those lists, the fact that family members came to report these persons, or
17 was there another way?
18 A. That was the only source, contacts with persons who had survived
19 certain crimes who were able to testify about them, and when families
20 would come to report a missing family member.
21 Q. Can I take it then that clearly missing Serbs were not a part of
22 your list?
23 A. You can make or reach the conclusion that no Serb family members
24 came to our office to report missing persons or to give a statement about
25 events that preceded that or what happened to their family members.
1 Q. Your office in Zagreb, you mean?
2 A. Yes, that is correct.
3 Q. Since you say that you worked on a part of the report that Croatia
4 sent to the UN commission, is it true that Yugoslavia -- the
5 then-Yugoslavia sent the same report from Belgrade to the experts --
6 expert commission which was formed under the same resolution of the
7 Security Council, and it was on missing persons from 1992? Did you have
8 the opportunity to look at that report?
9 A. No. I know that all the countries from the territory of the
10 former Yugoslavia had sent such reports, but at the time I was very busy
11 so I didn't really study those reports and it wasn't my job to do so. And
12 also, in the report -- the -- my share on the work of the report that
13 Croatia sent was very small and it related only to the humanitarian
15 Q. The report sent to the expert commission talks about Vukovar and
16 the events in Vukovar a lot, even though the report encompassed events
17 throughout Croatia, in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and even Slovenia at the
18 time that this was important there. I want to read just some things out
19 to you to see if you had heard of that or if you have anything that you
20 know about that in any way, perhaps while you were still in Zagreb or
21 during the time you were in Vukovar or perhaps you had heard about that in
22 some other way.
23 Are you aware of an event in Borovo Naselje on the 4th of July,
24 1991, when Dragan Mijatovic and Stojan Stojanovic and some other
25 unidentified Serbs were killed?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Are you aware of an event on the -- of an event on the 13th of
3 July, 1991, in Borovo Selo when two more Serbs were killed?
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the names.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
6 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]
7 Q. You mentioned -- I see that my last question is not in the
8 transcript, so I'm going to repeat it. It's an event of the 13th of July
9 of 1991 in Borovo Selo when Milenko Djuricic was killed. He was arrested
10 by two members of the ZNG. You mentioned the village of Sotin yesterday,
11 which is next to Vukovar. Are you familiar with an event on the 29th of
12 July in that village when Mihajlo Nadj was killed and that the possible
13 perpetrators were three people, including Zdravko Komsic, whom you
14 mentioned and you knew well, as you said yesterday?
15 A. No, I did not hear about those individual incidents, and I've
16 already explained that to the Trial Chamber. I, in particular, don't know
17 the names of all those persons. If you would like to continue to read
18 that and explain that and if that is serving some other function other
19 than the function of questioning a witness, I agree, but all the answers
20 will be the same because I really don't know any names that you are
21 talking about. I've already told you that.
22 Q. Thank you. All right. Then I will not read anymore if you say
23 that you don't know about any of the incidents. I'm not going to do that,
24 but all I would like to say is that, in the report regarding the civilians
25 in Vukovar and the environs, about 43 individuals are mentioned and the
1 killings of over 100 Serbs, and this report was sent to the UN. But since
2 you say that you don't know any of these individual events, I will not go
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, over 200 Serbs were
6 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]
7 Q. I asked you yesterday if you knew Tomislav Mercep. You said that
8 you heard of him but you didn't know much more about that. If I were to
9 tell you that he was in charge of the defence of Vukovar at the time that
10 the Secretariat for Defence was under his -- was under his care, then
11 would you say that you knew anything about him?
12 A. Well, I can tell you the same thing I already told you. I heard
13 of Tomislav Mercep. I don't know had a his function was. I was never
14 interested in that, and until 2005 I had never seen the gentleman
16 Q. And did you see him perhaps in a television programme on Croatian
17 television about Vukovar when he said that allegedly President Tudjman
18 stated that it was more important to him to save 200 -- Zagreb citizens
19 from getting killed than to spare 2.000 citizens from Vukovar from getting
20 killed. Did you hear about that?
21 A. I generally avoided watching such television programmes because
22 that only reminded me about the events that I had lived there, and it
23 upset me.
24 Q. Thank you. Do you know who was Pole Stipo?
25 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] My apologies, just before we move on
1 that there's a correction page 23, the transcript line 19. It should read
2 and -- it should read "than to spare 2.000 citizens of Vukovar."
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, it is not quite clear what
4 counsel is saying.
5 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]
6 Q. My question: Do you know who Pole Stipo is?
7 A. No. I apologise. One thing I would like to know: Will I be
8 answering questions relating to my testimony, or will you spend the next
9 following days asking me about the names of persons that I don't know and
10 never referred to in my statements.
11 Q. Madam, I'm asking you about both thing that you referred to in
12 your statement and facts that might affect your credibility before this
13 Court. That precisely is the reason why I am asking questions about
14 certain people that I believe you would have had to know if indeed you
15 were in Vukovar at the time and spent so much time there, and if it is
16 your objective to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
17 truth. Again, I'm asking you: Pole Stipo, does that ring a bell?
18 A. No, it doesn't. I was 28 at the time. Politics was the least of
19 my worries at the time. The people I knew were my friends and the people,
20 the circle of people I had socialised with from a young age on. On the
21 other hand, it's quite obvious that you're not asking questions about my
22 statement -- my testimony. You are asking questions on assertions that
23 you wish to be heard, but that has little to do with me and my testimony
25 Q. If you were to tell you that Pole Stipo was the commander of
1 Vukovar's defence residing in the neighbourhood of Mitnica and that he was
2 in that post in 1991, if I were to tell you that before the clashes he was
3 the police commander in the Vukovar port authority at the Danube, would
4 that ring a bell after all?
5 A. I did not know that gentleman. I never met him.
6 Q. What about Ante Roso?
7 A. Heard of but I didn't know the gentleman.
8 Q. Can I perhaps know what exactly you heard about him.
9 A. No, I heard of him. I remember his name. He was one of Vukovar's
10 defenders, that's all.
11 Q. What about the Marin Pliso?
12 A. Yes, he was also one of Vukovar's defenders. The name certainly
13 rings a bell. I believe he was a shop owner before the war, something
14 like that, but I'm not sure.
15 Q. Based on the information I have, he was an HDZ member and he was
16 placed in charge of procuring weapons for the ZNG. But since you say you
17 know nothing about that, well -- what about Ferdinand Jukic, nicknamed
18 Jeja, or Develi Fati [phoen]?
19 A. I know all the names from Mitnica, the people who were at Mitnica.
20 I told you I worked with lists of people later of people who were killed
21 as well as the lists of those who were awaiting to be exchanged or who
22 went missing in Vukovar. It's difficult for me to distinguish about the
23 people I didn't know personally, whether I heard about their names back
24 then or perhaps came across their names later on three years later when I
25 worked with these lists of exchanged and missing persons. What I can
1 confirm is anything in relation to those people who I knew personally and
2 was in touch with.
3 Q. What about the Ivica Franjic, nicknamed Pastor. His war nickname
4 was Srna.
5 A. I heard his name or saw it on a list. It's difficult to say.
6 Q. What about the Ivan Soljic?
7 A. Ivan Soljic spent some time in our cellar, in our shelter. He was
8 with the National Guards Corps command. I knew him or was in touch with
9 him at one point, meaning I talked to him. And I think he was killed just
10 before Vukovar was occupied.
11 Q. The more you mention this occupation of Vukovar, the more I keep
12 wondering what that means to you. Are you talking about the 18th of
13 November or are you talking about an earlier date?
14 A. The 18th of November. That was the beginning of the occupation,
15 the 18th.
16 Q. Thank you very much. Ivan Soljic, was he not a commander of the
17 ZNG for Mitnica of all places? Did you hear about the 204th Brigade of
18 the ZNG or battalion.
19 A. This is a legendary brigade because it was successful in Vukovar
20 in repelling JNA attacks, and the JNA had superior weapons. They repelled
21 their attacks and held them off for nearly four months. I think even
22 Soljic at one time was its commander.
23 Q. At Mitnica. Was he also perhaps the president of the Crisis Staff
24 at Mitnica?
25 A. I think so, for a while at least.
1 Q. Do you know that after, that he remained in that position, the
2 commander of the 204th, until the 12th of November, 1991? Can you confirm
3 that since you were there?
4 A. It's true that I was in the area, but I can't confirm that because
5 I didn't go into these military matters, nor were they likely to share
6 this sort of detail with us, and I wasn't interested.
7 Q. Can you remember how long you kept seeing him for there, in this
8 place that was to all practical intents the headquarters of the National
9 Guards Corps? My information seems to be suggesting that the 12th is six
10 days before Vukovar eventually fell. Would that be possible? What do you
12 A. I think it is possible it was several days before the occupation
13 of Vukovar or, rather, the entry of the JNA into Vukovar. That was when I
14 no longer saw Mr. Soljic.
15 Q. What Mile Dedakovic was that ring a bell?
16 A. Yes, it does. He was the commander of Vukovar's defence at one
17 point in time during the war.
18 Q. Was he perhaps the superior of this man whom we have just
19 discussed, Ivan Soljic?
20 A. I don't know about how this worked, the hierarchy and everything,
21 nor was I interested. The important thing was to survive. My curiosity
22 was not much peaked by these details concerning the military hierarchy.
23 Q. You say that you were spending days and nights in that cellar with
24 the command staff of the National Guards Corps of Mitnica. Ivan Soljic
25 was a commander there for a long time and Dedakovic was the overall
1 commander of the Vukovar defence. I'm asking you was he his superior.
2 You're saying you don't know. I'll ask my next question. At the time
3 when you say you no longer saw Soljic, the reason was that Dedakovic had
4 had him replaced and that's why he was no longer around?
5 A. I know nothing about that and I can't comment. I'm sorry.
6 Q. Did you not say that based on your information Ivan Soljic was
7 killed before the fall of Vukovar? Was my understanding correct?
8 A. In actual fact I was not familiar with his fate. It's just that
9 at one point in time I stopped seeing him at the headquarters, where
10 previously I used to see him regularly. I don't know what really happened
11 to him. Speculation was rife, everybody was talking about it, but in
12 actual fact I don't really know this for a fact. I assume that he was
13 killed, yes.
14 Q. Did writer tell you that several days before the fall of Vukovar
15 after he was dismissed he fled Vukovar and went to Hungary and that he had
16 already sent his family to Hungary earlier on, therefore he was safe and
17 not killed. And seeing as you have no other information on the man's
18 fate, would you agree that this was a possibility?
19 A. I heard stories, many stories, about Ivan Soljic, how he ended up
20 in Zagreb. I heard all sorts of stories. I'm not sure what your
21 information is based on. I'm not sure why your story would be more
22 credible or trustworthy than other stories that I've heard, given that you
23 don't seem to have any documents about what really happened.
24 Q. Yes, but you talked about his possible death before the fall of
25 Vukovar. I'm telling you he survived. Do you have that sort of
2 A. There were all sorts of accounts and rumours surrounding the fate
3 of Ivan Soljic. There were several stories, but none substantiated, none
4 more credible than the other. I don't think I can comment any further.
5 Q. Thank you. But if I may just observe something. I asked many
6 questions about what was going on in Vukovar, especially at the period of
7 time when you were still free to move about and get on with your life as
8 usual, but you didn't seem to confirm any other incidents save for the one
9 in Borovo Naselje. And then you spent days and days on end in a cellar
10 hardly ever leaving the cellar, and yet you were very accurate about
11 describing where the shells were coming from and that how that plane
12 suddenly emerged from behind the river. It's very difficult for me to
13 verify what's true and what isn't, in view of all the things that you have
14 testified about.
15 A. With all due respect to you, sir, I must point something out to
16 you. Everybody suddenly gets extremely interested in what's going on once
17 shells start raining down on you and falling on your head. You, too,
18 would be very interested. You, too, would in no time at all learn what
19 kind of missiles these were and how to take shelter and save your life in
20 the face of these missiles falling on top of you.
21 Q. There is no doubt about that, Madam. I'm just saying that you
22 provided information that could only have been obtained by careful and
23 close observation, whereas you did not actually witness these things
24 yourself. As for the period while you were still free to move about, your
25 powers of observation didn't seem to be that sharp. But let's not pursue
1 that any further. I would like to conclude by asking you something which
2 I think says a lot about your attitude to this Court in some of the
3 answers you have given. At the very beginning of your transcript, page 1
4 of yesterday's transcript, my learned friend from the OTP asked you about
5 your personal information. You said you completed primary school and
6 secondary school in Belgrade, started studying, and graduated. That's
7 fine. However, I have information that you had five exams to go at the
8 time you quit university, which you confirmed. However, you had completed
9 all your courses, you had completed the four compulsory years of
10 university, and you only had five exams to go before you obtained your
11 diploma at the pharmaceutical faculty. Is that correct?
12 A. When I spoke about my studies, I said that I had nearly graduated,
13 nearly graduated. I think my statement is very clear about that. I have
14 no reason to be saying that I graduated if, in fact, I didn't.
15 Q. That's what the transcript says, and had I not asked the question
16 now it would have remained that way. However, that is not my question --
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Domazet, can I make it clear --
18 MR. DOMAZET: Yes.
19 JUDGE PARKER: -- that the effect of the evidence yesterday as the
20 Chamber understood it was very clearly that the witness had not graduated.
21 She had stopped in her course five examinations short of completing the
22 course. So if --
23 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE PARKER: -- there is some error in the transcript, it's not
25 one that affected the sense of her evidence yesterday.
1 MR. DOMAZET: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
2 [Interpretation] She did answer my question when I asked the
3 question about the five exams, but on page 1, line 18 and line 19: [In
4 English] "I completed primary and secondary school and started studying at
5 university in Belgrade and I graduated."
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but I didn't say that.
7 It's that simple.
8 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]
9 Q. You set the record straight saying that you completed the four
10 years and that you only had five exams to go before your diploma?
11 A. I never pronounced the word "I graduated." I'm sorry.
12 Q. Thank you. Fair enough. We know nothing about that, whether it's
13 true, that you had indeed completed the four years of studies and you only
14 had five exams to go. I have better information to corroborate that. But
15 I have a list of students of the pharmaceutical faculty in Zagreb 2001,
16 the academic year 2001 and 2002, number 17 reads "Sarlota Fora taking the
17 third year of the course for the second time," and the same information
18 applies to 2003. You, yet again, had to repeat this same year of the
19 course, the third year. Can you confirm this information, and how
20 different is this from you completing the four years in Belgrade and just
21 nearly graduating, as you said.
22 A. Yes, that's true. If you go back and check the way the system
23 worked, the education system, you will see that the programmes are quite
24 different in Zagreb and Belgrade respectively, via curricula. When I
25 finally obtained or retrieved my documents, university documents, from
1 Belgrade, on account of the differences in the respective curricula, I was
2 sent back to my third year in Zagreb with the differential exams still to
3 be taken. So much for the education system and its consistency throughout
4 the former Yugoslavia.
5 Q. Thank you. But you didn't tell us about that. When you spoke
6 about continuing in Zagreb, you didn't say that you had to go back a year
7 or two.
8 A. You never asked me about that.
9 Q. Yes, but I just wanted to clarify and comment on everything you
10 stated here before this Court. I thank you for your answers.
11 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
12 Your Honour.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Domazet.
14 About 20 minutes -- we're speeding up the team before you,
15 Mr. Borovic. You've got about 20 minutes' clear run now. Thank you.
16 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Borovic:
18 Q. My name is Borivoje Borovic, I am Defence counsel of Miroslav
19 Radic in this case. My first question: Immediately upon leaving prison,
20 you went to Zagreb and were given a job there. My question is: One year
21 of experience at a level of a low clerk in a small town in Croatia seemed
22 to be a sufficient recommendation for getting a job in the Ministry of
23 Defence. Is that right?
24 A. Until 1992 we were not officially employed nor did we receive
25 remuneration for our work. This was a pro bono, voluntary work. Later on
1 I found a job at the medical school, where I started collecting
2 documentation that I described to you.
3 Q. Thank you. But you didn't answer my question. Was this
4 recommendation of a one-year experience at a level of a low clerk in a
5 small town in Croatia, was that a sufficient recommendation or were you,
6 in fact, recommended by your war experience?
7 A. Anybody who wanted could have gotten the job that I did. My --
8 what recommended me was that I knew what had happened in Vukovar. I was
9 able to identify the people who had to be exchanged.
10 Q. Thank you. Since you knew everything that happened in Vukovar,
11 we're now going to cover that one by one. You said that you knew of
12 Mercep. My question is: Do you know that on the 8th of August he issued
13 permits limiting the movement of citizens around Vukovar?
14 A. No. I never needed any permits when I went to any part of the
15 city after the 8th of August.
16 Q. Thank you. As my colleague before me said, based on our
17 information it was only the members of the ZNG who didn't need such
18 permits. Everybody else needed them. Does that mean that you were a
19 member of the ZNG?
20 A. No, that doesn't mean that, and it is clear that your information
21 is not accurate, seeing that I was there and not you.
22 Q. Thank you. As for the information about permits, I gained this
23 information through the testimony of various witnesses testifying here
24 before you, witnesses who were well familiar with this. My next question
25 is: What areas were under your control in the month of September? When I
1 say "your control," I'm referring to the following: Yesterday while
2 giving testimony you said -- you frequently referred that such-and-such an
3 area was under our control. Therefore, I'm asking you now: What areas
4 were under your control in September?
5 A. I can only testify about the area where I was. Mitnica was mostly
6 under the control of Croatian defenders.
7 Q. From when to when?
8 A. Up until the 18th of November.
9 Q. From when I asked.
10 A. As I have already explained, for me the beginning of an open
11 conflict was when the tanks passed and opened fire in Mitnica. That was
12 in late August.
13 Q. Yes, but you didn't answer my question. From what time on was
14 Mitnica under the ZNG control?
15 A. I apologise, but I did answer.
16 Q. But I didn't understand your answer.
17 A. Open conflicts erupted in late August, whereas the surrender of
18 weapons and civilians -- evacuation of civilians was on the 18th of
20 Q. When you went to visit your husband in the post office, as you
21 testified yesterday, through which areas of Vukovar did you have to go?
22 What are these areas of Vukovar called from Mitnica to the post office?
23 A. After Mitnica one reaches the centre of the town. I would take
24 the main road to the centre of the town. And after that, I would take the
25 main road to the hospital. So all of that can be deemed the centre of the
1 town, Mitnica and then the centre of the town.
2 Q. What about the after the hospital?
3 A. I didn't go anywhere beyond the hospital. I don't know what you
4 have in mind.
5 Q. Thank you. Well, did you go to visit your husband?
6 A. Yes, but that's before the hospital. You probably didn't pay
7 close attention to the map that I drew. We have Mitnica, then the centre
8 of the town, post office, and then comes the hospital.
9 Q. Thank you. Were these areas under the control of the ZNG at the
10 time when you went to the post office?
11 A. The JNA didn't enter the centre of the town prior to occupation,
12 which came, as I said, on the 18th.
13 Q. Since you are a witness who is supposed to give us accurate
14 information and answer the questions put to you, please tell us: Do you
15 know whether at the time the ZNG had the centre of Vukovar under their
16 control? Did you see there formations which, according to Defence, were
17 paramilitary formations?
18 A. While Vukovar was defended, I never saw any paramilitary
19 formations. I saw members of the ZNG, meaning Croatian army. I've
20 already answered your question, namely that the JNA as the attacking army,
21 the army that shelled the city, didn't enter the centre of the town until
22 Vukovar fell and was occupied.
23 Q. Thank you. But you keep refusing to answer my question. Please
24 do not interrupt me. You went from the headquarters of the ZNG in Mitnica
25 to the hospital, and en route did you see any military positions of the
2 A. I did not see any military positions of the ZNG. Most likely,
3 positions were held elsewhere but not on the main street.
4 Q. And where would that be, elsewhere, since you were in Vukovar and
5 you are testifying here?
6 A. The positions were near the demarcation line where the JNA
8 Q. And those were? You are the witness here. You passed through
9 that area. Please do not interrupt me. Let me finish my question. So
10 these were the lines from which the JNA attacked, as you say. You
11 explained the weapons that they used. You saw the weapons that they fired
12 from. You saw what they hit. So please tell us: Where were these lines?
13 You are the witness.
14 A. I testified about the location of the line in the area where I was
15 at Mitnica. In the centre of the town, there was no front line, nor
16 demarcation line, on the main street or main road of the town, nor were
17 there any ZNG units positioned there.
18 Q. Thank you. But your answers are not of the kind that could
19 impress the Defence. You seem to give hostile answers to very simple
20 questions. I put a very simple, fair question to you. Did you see any
21 ZNG members on the -- in that stretch, in that area, or not?
22 A. I saw individual persons wearing uniforms moving about town. I
23 would see them very seldom. I saw maybe two or three because the shelling
24 was in progress. And as I have already told you, I was driving in a car
25 with a member of the ZNG who was taking his wounded colleague to the
2 Q. Thank you. When did you first learn that there were 180 members
3 of the ZNG at Mitnica? When was the first time you learned of that
5 A. The list that we compiled, the list of the persons who surrendered
6 their weapons, had 180 names of the persons who surrendered at Mitnica.
7 Q. All right. And how many members were there three months earlier,
8 since you were with the ZNG staff at Mitnica, you lived together, spent
9 days and nights with the members of the ZNG staff, so did you ever hear of
10 the number? How many were there at Mitnica?
11 A. As I've already told you, there were 2 to 4.000 of us civilians
13 Q. I would kindly ask you to finally start answering my questions. I
14 never asked you anything about civilians.
15 A. But you say "you."
16 Q. When I say "you," I meant you, members of the ZNG, since you lived
17 in the headquarters of the ZNG which is a military facility. It is
18 unlikely that a civilian would be able to live there.
19 A. Yes, I understand.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, I am going to interrupt for two
21 reasons. The first is that there is no suggestion in the evidence that
22 this witness was a member of the ZNG. You are putting that as a fact --
23 as a preface to a question. The second is that I made a mistake earlier,
24 and in my mind when you commenced I thought we were going to finish at a
25 quarter to 11.00, but I was wrong and I'm sorry. So we will need to
1 finish now because of the tapes, and we will resume, therefore, at 11.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Borovic.
5 MR. BOROVIC: Thank you.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Among the ZNG members at Mitnica, were there any
7 foreign nationals?
8 A. No, not a single one. I didn't see one.
9 Q. At the headquarters there, was there a radio there or did they
10 have radio equipment?
11 A. Yes, they had communication equipment.
12 Q. Did they communicate in your presence with the hospital via that
14 A. I don't remember. We mostly didn't listen to the conversations
15 they had because a majority of them were confidential.
16 Q. Thank you. Did you attend the meetings of the staff when
17 decisions were adopted?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Thank you. Can we conclude, in view of the fact that the Main
20 Staff was present there at Mitnica, that the utility company was
21 transformed into a military facility?
22 A. I don't know what you can conclude. What I told you was that the
23 staff was housed in the basement because the building where they had been
24 prior to that was destroyed.
25 Q. Thank you. And where was that where they were housed prior to
2 A. I really don't know. It was somewhere in Mitnica near the small
3 post office or in that vicinity, but I'm not sure.
4 Q. Do you know what a shell fired by a multi-barrelled rocket
5 launcher looks like?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Would you be so kind and describe it?
8 A. It looks like a rocket. It leaves a fire trace or trail behind
9 it, and upon contact with the ground it disperses everywhere.
10 Unfortunately I had occasion to get personally acquainted with such shells
11 fired by multi-barrelled rocket launcher when it killed several people and
12 when these shells started landing all over around the area where I was.
13 Q. Thank you. Can you describe a mortar shell for us, please.
14 A. As far as I know, a mortar doesn't fire shells.
15 Q. Well, what does it fire?
16 A. Something like a grenade or something similar.
17 Q. All right. Could you please describe this similar object that you
18 testified about yesterday.
19 A. Yesterday I testified about detonations caused by mortar
20 ammunition. I didn't study this ammunition. What I can tell you is that
21 there were detonations of different intensity.
22 Q. Do you distinguish the shells based on their sound? Can you make
23 a distinction between an artillery shell, a missile fired by a
24 multi-barrelled rocket launcher, and a mortar shell?
25 A. Yes. They all caused different detonations. When a
1 multi-barrelled rocket launcher fired a grenade, then that produced
2 several consecutive detonations of various intensity. And they differed
3 from the detonations caused by a shell.
4 Q. All right. And did you ever see a mortar grenade being fired and
6 A. Had I seen this personally, I would not have been able to talk to
7 you now.
8 Q. Well, had you ever seen it?
9 A. I saw it land.
10 Q. And what about the rocket fired by a multi-barrelled rocket
11 launcher, did you see it in its flight and when it landed?
12 A. Yes, I saw that at Mitnica.
13 Q. And what was your impression?
14 A. A very unpleasant one.
15 Q. All right. Thank you. Did you ever see a multi-barrelled rocket
16 launcher? And if so, would you please describe it to us.
17 A. I saw it when we went to Ovcara. Once you turn from the main road
18 to Sotin, when you turn to Ovcara, that's what I described yesterday.
19 Q. Thank you. And did you ever see it prior to that?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Would you be able to explain to the Court how come you know what a
22 rocket fired by a multi-barrelled rocket launcher looks like if you have
23 never seen it before and if you have no military experience?
24 A. I have no military experience, and you yourself would quickly
25 learn had you been in a situation where such shells were raining down upon
2 Q. You said that you went to the hospital two or three times and you
3 described that one occasion. What was the reason for you on the other two
4 occasions to go to the hospital?
5 A. The same.
6 Q. Which one?
7 A. I went to meet my husband.
8 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber why you passed by your
9 husband and went to the hospital. That's not the same reason, because if
10 the post office is before the hospital, then why go to the hospital? Was
11 there any particular reason for that? It seems to me - you can help me -
12 but the way you explained it the post office is on the way to the
14 A. Yes, correct. We were transporting the wounded. It was an urgent
15 thing, so it was much more urgent to get them there and I was just there
16 for the ride. So it was more important to drop them off at the hospital
17 than me at the post office. I would walk back later to the hospital.
18 Q. And then how did you go back to the headquarters?
19 A. I walked.
20 Q. Did your husband ever visit you at the staff?
21 A. He would come once a week or once every two weeks when it was
22 possible, in view of the fact that movement was limited at the time. I'm
23 talking about a three-month period now.
24 Q. The period from the 12th of October, did he ever visit you or not,
25 from that time until the end?
1 A. I'm sorry. What happened on the 12th of October?
2 Q. What you told us here, that on that day he left the post office
3 and moved to live at your parents' place.
4 A. That wasn't on the 12th of October, but it was on the 12th of
5 November. And in the original statement that I signed, it states the 12th
6 of November in English.
7 Q. What about the Listopad? Is that the tenth or the eleventh month?
8 A. If it says "Listopad," then obviously the translation is not
10 Q. When did you read the English version of your statement the last
12 A. When I came here to The Hague.
13 Q. Why are you making that correction in the addendum that goes with
14 your statement, that you're only correcting it now?
15 A. Because in the English that is correct. That is the original
16 version which I signed.
17 Q. Very well. I just wanted to tell you that in the B/C/S version it
18 doesn't say the tenth month or the eleventh month, it says "Listopad."
19 This is a specific name for a month in Croatian.
20 A. Well, I think this is a mistake by a translator of this Tribunal.
21 I have nothing to do with that.
22 Q. Very well. Thank you. Did you enter the hospital on each of the
23 occasions, of the three occasions?
24 A. No, I did not.
25 Q. Then why did you go to the hospital? How far did you get?
1 A. Up to the entrance.
2 Q. Was that the main entrance or the side entrance?
3 A. It was the main entrance.
4 Q. Other than arriving at the front entrance, did you go around the
5 hospital? Did you walk around there or not?
6 A. Well, the promenade was closed. I've already said that the
7 shelling was incessant.
8 Q. My question was very specific. Did you stand around the front
9 entrance or walk around the side of the hospital promenading?
10 A. No, I was not promenading.
11 Q. This is a very important question. Where did you see the sign of
12 the Red Cross?
13 A. It was hung on the hospital.
14 Q. Where?
15 A. On the front side of the hospital building.
16 Q. Where? Which part of the front of the hospital?
17 A. Well --
18 Q. Above the main entrance?
19 A. There were several entrances. The main entrance or what I
20 considered to be the main entrance is the gate of the hospital.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please not speak at the same
22 time. Thank you.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was at the widest part of the
24 building. There was a large kind of flag on the wall.
25 MR. BOROVIC:
1 Q. Thank you. [Microphone not activated]
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
3 A. That was the sign I saw at the time because I was on that side.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Excuse me. That was the first time that you came. And what about
7 the second and the third time? Was the sign still there?
8 A. Yes, I think that it was.
9 Q. Thank you. Did you stay at the main gate or did you go up to the
10 building itself?
11 A. Once I came out of the car at the main gate I went back towards
12 the post office right away.
13 Q. Thank you. So that means that you did not enter the yard of the
14 hospital from any side?
15 A. I was at the gate of the hospital from where you can see the yard.
16 Q. Thank you. Thank you. How can you then explain your conclusion
17 to a question by the Prosecutor that there were no weapons of any kind in
18 the hospital or around the hospital if all that you saw of the hospital
19 was from the gate or if you were only at the gate?
20 A. Well, I didn't -- the part that I saw -- that's how I understood
21 the question: Did I see any weapons in the area that I was able to see,
22 and I did not. That's how I understood it.
23 Q. All right. So that only covers the area that you were able to
24 see. During this three-month period were you in telephone contact with
25 your husband?
1 A. We were able to talk on the telephone very rarely.
2 Q. When was the last time that you talked like that?
3 A. Perhaps in early November, and after that the lines were cut. And
4 then after that he came to Mitnica.
5 Q. Thank you. Was the post office in the area controlled by the ZNG,
6 you used to go there?
7 A. The post office was in the centre of the town, and I've already
8 said that the Yugoslav People's Army did not have control on that -- in
9 that part of town.
10 Q. So you would agree that the ZNG had control in that area of the
12 A. Well, the Croatian army did.
13 Q. When you say "the Croatian army," do you also include the civilian
15 A. There's a very clear difference between armed soldiers, armed --
16 the army and the civilian protection. I've already explained that.
17 Q. Thank you. But you did not explain that. Your husband you said
18 joined the civilian protection.
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. What does that mean?
21 A. It means that he did not get a uniform but that he was at home
22 where he lived and that is where he performed guard duty in order to
23 possibly prevent the JNA or the paramilitary forces from entering.
24 Q. Was he supposed to prevent them with his bare arms or did he have
1 A. He had weapons but didn't have ammunition.
2 Q. What weapon did he have?
3 A. A rifle.
4 Q. And no ammunition?
5 A. A little bit of ammunition.
6 Q. No ammunition or a lot of ammunition --
7 JUDGE PARKER: You'll have to slow down.
8 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Let's start again. Your husband, a member of the civilian
10 protection, had a rifle. How much ammunition did he have or did he have
11 any ammunition at all?
12 A. He had some ammunition, a little, just like everybody in Vukovar.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Did you see that or did he tell you that?
16 A. He told me that.
17 Q. Thank you. And your father, as a member of the Yugoslav People's
18 Army, did he have a rifle in Vukovar?
19 A. All those who went to perform guard's duty at these positions when
20 they went from their homes, when they went on guard duty they would
21 receive a rifle and then they would give it back once they returned home.
22 Q. Who did they get it from and who did they return it to?
23 A. I don't know that. This was organised by the civilian protection
25 Q. And who was the main commander of the civilian protection? Under
1 whose command were your husband and your father?
2 A. I don't know that.
3 Q. They never told you that, not even after the war?
4 A. No, no, I wasn't interested in that.
5 Q. Thank you. Would you allow for the possibility that Mercep was
6 their supreme commander?
7 A. No. I would not allow for that possibility because I don't know.
8 Q. Well, that's a good answer also. Can you explain to us who was
9 guarding your husband's mother because she was alone -- well, I hear that
10 your husband was taking care of your parents. Who was taking care of his
11 mother? Who was guarding her?
12 A. He was not guarding my parents. My father was also in the
13 civilian protection. All those in Vukovar who were able to were part of
14 the civilian protection. Since the -- my husband's family house did not
15 have a cellar where you could be -- which you could use as a shelter. She
16 went to her neighbour's. It was a fairly large cellar there. It was also
17 quite full of neighbours who were living there so that in any case she was
18 not alone. She was with his aunt and with all the other neighbours who
19 were at that particular shelter.
20 Q. Thank you. Perhaps this is not something of interest to the
21 Defence, but is it logical -- wouldn't it be logical to invite that woman
22 to come over and join your parents so that your husband could look after
23 her as well, or perhaps you're not speaking the truth about the civilian
24 protection positions where your husband and father were.
25 A. From the beginning of my testimony here I have been speaking the
1 truth. We did invite my husband's mother, but, however, she did not want
2 to go too far from her house. She wanted to keep an eye on what was going
3 on with her house. That was something, if you allow, that was important
4 to her at that time.
5 Q. Thank you. Earlier you stated that your husband while he was
6 working at the post office would come home once a week or perhaps once or
7 twice in the course of a week or two weeks. My question is: Does that
8 mean that at the time he was sleeping at the post office?
9 A. Yes, that's exactly what it means. We were all sleeping at
10 shelters at that time because movement was restricted.
11 Q. What did he eat at the post office? Where did he have baths?
12 Where did he sleep? How many people were there at the post office? Do
13 you know anything about these things?
14 A. Well, it's logical to me because this is something that I lived
15 there, something like that. Obviously you have no idea what you are
16 talking about, with all due respect. Excuse me, all 10 or 15.000 people
17 who happened to be in Vukovar at that time lived, had baths, and ate in
18 shelters. They slept in shelters and they would go out only when it was
19 necessary, and that is when they got killed. You're talking about a
20 period when every third citizen of Vukovar was killed; two survived and
21 one was killed.
22 Q. Thank you very much. I would just like to ask you not to raise
23 your voice because you, as a witness, really cannot convince me in view of
24 your statement that everyone was in the civilian protection who was --
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, that sort of comment is inappropriate.
1 There's an antagonism going on between you and the witness which is not
2 useful for the purposes of this hearing. We can get to the essential
3 issues of the evidence in a quite orderly fashion. Your comment then and
4 a number of others have not been assisting that. So if you would please
5 ask your questions and not make personal comments about the witness or on
6 the answers, and we will get along more quickly and more effectively.
7 Your Defence case will be pursued more effectively if you can do it that
8 way, and I'm sure other counsel will take notice of that comment because
9 it's something that is a habit of several counsel. It will be a lot
10 better for everybody if we deal simply with questions, get answers, and
11 move on. Thank you.
12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Next question. Besides automatic weapons and mortars that you
14 talked about, do you know that the ZNG also had the support of artillery
15 from Vinkovci?
16 A. At the time I didn't have such information nor later, information
17 of a military nature. I wasn't interested in that kind of information.
18 Q. Thank you. As a daughter of the officer of the JNA, how was it
19 that you earned the opportunity to spend time at the Main Staff of the ZNG
20 at Mitnica? Did you go through any checks?
21 A. Well, I don't know if anybody or who could have run a check on me.
22 I knew most of those people from childhood. They probably came to my
23 family house. How did I come to earn that was probably just by being in
24 Vukovar at the time.
25 Q. Thank you. You stated yesterday that their -- that they, meaning
1 the Serb Territorial Defence, constituted a paramilitary force. I would
2 like to ask you the following: And was your civilian protection a
3 paramilitary formation? This is a very precise question.
4 A. I think not.
5 Q. Can you be a little bit closer to such a conclusion if you say
6 they do not have uniforms, there are no insignia, so is that then a
7 military or a paramilitary formation?
8 A. What I explained in any case is that already all of those
9 so-called units or groups of people who were in the civilian protection
10 units or civilian protection groups were in the area and organised in the
11 area where they lived. So they lived there, they were there as civilian
12 protection for their own houses and their own families.
13 Q. Thank you. And what do you think the Serbs did in the Territorial
14 Defence? Do you have an opinion about that? Did they fight for their --
15 A. Well, I don't know what those two bearded men were doing together
16 with Mr. Sljivancanin at Ovcara, but perhaps we don't need to talk about
18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the Trial Chamber,
19 nevertheless, to warn the witness to start to answer my questions because
20 I think that the way she is addressing us is not appropriate, regardless
21 of where she was in 1991.
22 Q. The question is: What were the TO -- the Serb TO in Vukovar
23 fighting for? Were they also fighting for their houses? That is the
25 JUDGE PARKER: That is a new question. It is not at all like the
1 question that you did put, which sought an opinion, Mr. Borovic. I just
2 am putting that so that you will understand that you may have one thing in
3 mind, but what you often put is different. And that doesn't -- what you
4 do put is answered as best the witness can, and I really don't know how
5 she could give an opinion on the subject that you did put to her, but when
6 she does her best that way, you are then concerned that she hasn't
7 answered the question that was in your mind rather than the question that
8 you actually put. So if you can keep that in mind as well, there will be
9 less frustration between you and the witness and we can move along.
10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I believe
11 my learned friend has something to say.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
13 Mr. Agha.
14 MR. AGHA: Thank you, Your Honours. As my learned Defence
15 colleague has been continuing, and indeed the entire Defence, with their
16 cross-examination, I've tried not to raise as many objections as perhaps
17 would ordinarily be the case, because, in my submission, the Court is
18 having full control of the proceedings. However, I have noticed that
19 apart from the observations Your Honour has been making that there are
20 three Defence teams and a number of the questions are of a repetitive
21 nature such as: Where was your husband working? And these have all
22 actually been answered before by the witness in chief. And I think it may
23 be more expeditious to the proceedings if perhaps we could address new
24 areas as each counsel comes along.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Agha. The Chamber has been
1 discussing the progress of this case, and it proposes at a convenient time
2 to put a number of issues to counsel, including the range of questioning,
3 both by Prosecution and Defence. In the Chamber's view, there is a lack
4 of attention to what are the material issues, a lot of attention to
5 matters that really are of no significance at all. And there is a deal of
6 repetition of questioning. But this isn't the time for us to delay on
8 Carry on, please, Mr. Borovic.
9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Might I provide a brief
10 comment in relation to what my learned friend has just said, Your Honours?
11 JUDGE PARKER: At the appropriate time, Mr. Borovic. We don't
12 want to waste time now. I have indicated to Mr. Agha that we'll be
13 dealing with this topic at a convenient time later. So if you could leave
14 your comment until then.
15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] That's fine, Your Honour. Fine.
16 Thank you.
17 Q. You testified that everybody was involved in the town's defence,
18 including medical staff. Isn't that what you said?
19 A. My personal opinion is that Vukovar was defended by all its
20 citizens, by all those who remained there throughout. I never stated that
21 medical staff were involved in the town's defence. If I said so, I did
22 not mean that they were carrying weapons. They were involved in the
23 town's defence by doing their own work.
24 Q. Thank you. On page 18, line 6, you stated just that yesterday. I
25 made a special note of that when you said that medical staff, too, were
1 involved in the town's defence. However, you've just provided an
2 explanation, and we are satisfied now.
3 Did you meet Vesna Bosanac?
4 A. That was only in Sremska Mitrovica, but prior to that we were not
5 personally acquainted.
6 Q. Did you ever see Vesna Bosanac before you arrived in Sremska
8 A. I saw her as a doctor at the Vukovar Hospital.
9 Q. When?
10 A. I think probably back in 1991 and 1990. She was a paediatrician.
11 Q. Thank you. Why were you at the hospital?
12 A. I saw her because I had several different reasons to go to the
13 hospital: I was ill myself, my husband was ill, when my father's father
14 died, my father-in-law died.
15 Q. Did she ever come to the headquarters?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did Mile Dedakovic come to your headquarters at any time?
18 A. I never saw him there myself.
19 Q. Thank you. Do you know where the ZNG headquarters was for
20 Vukovar? Did you hear anything about that?
21 A. I'm not positive, but I think it was either in the police building
22 or somewhere else. I'm not sure, really. I think the police building,
23 but I'm not sure.
24 Q. You referred yesterday to a veterinary clinic. Was this in an
25 area that was under ZNG control, the area around the veterinary clinic?
1 A. That is in the settled area and I said that the confrontation line
2 was at the far end of Mitnica where the last houses were facing the new
4 Q. You said there were 180 ZNG members in your area, but you also
5 said that all able-bodied men were members of the civil protection. How
6 many members did the civil protection have at the time?
7 A. I don't think anybody can tell you. I never heard a specific
8 number. This was a self-organised thing. People joined the civil
9 protection in their own areas, and it was based on streets, actually, and
10 they defended their own homes.
11 Q. You said a while ago that was it was an organised thing, that they
12 were given weapons and they returned weapons. You know how it worked.
13 Given the fact that they were given weapons and returned weapons, who kept
14 those lists of weapons? Did anybody keep records and did anybody know how
15 many weapons they had, more than the ZNG or less?
16 A. I don't know why it seems to you that I should be able to answer
17 that question. It's not part of my experience. It's not part of my
18 testimony. I can't provide this number. You may find it important, but
19 I'm just unable to say.
20 Q. Madam, you're a witness and you said yourself that the civil
21 protection was an organised affair. Since we have not, so far, been able
22 to obtain this sort of information from anyone and you were the first to
23 mention it, we just wanted to know if you can tell us more about how many
24 members they were and how exactly they were organised. If it was based on
25 streets and if people defended their own streets, if that's all you can
1 say, I accept that, and thank you.
2 What were you wearing at the time? Were you wearing a uniform,
4 A. No.
5 Q. You testified that all the buildings were damaged. In late
6 November the buildings around the hospital, based on what you knew, had
7 already been razed to the ground. That's what you say. My question is:
8 Was the MUP building, the police building, also flattened in late
10 A. I think so. It was severely damaged, and the same applied to all
11 buildings in that area. I did not go to the hospital after the 1st of
12 November, therefore I can only speak about what it looked like earlier,
13 after a three-month period of continuous shelling at Mitnica. That's the
14 only thing I can speak about.
15 Q. You testified about those buildings around the hospital. What
16 about the MUP building? Was it merely damaged or entirely flattened, as
17 you told my colleague, Mr. Domazet? I think these are two different
18 categories, aren't they?
19 A. I believe this is the first question you asked about the MUP
20 building, isn't it?
21 Q. I asked you a question about that, but my colleague, who examined
22 you before I started. In answer to his question you said the buildings
23 were flattened, which means there was nothing left standing. I am just
24 saying this to cross-check the answers of another witness, to be fair. So
25 if you know, can you please describe the appearance of the MUP building on
1 the 1st of November -- or rather, the last time you saw it.
2 A. In early October or mid-October, I went there for the last time.
3 My impression was that all the buildings had sustained a severe degree of
4 damage. Some had been flattened, but this is the first time that you
5 yourself have referred to the MUP building specifically. That's what I'm
7 Q. Thank you. So what can you tell us about the MUP building? Was
8 this one of those buildings that had been flattened, razed to the ground,
9 or not?
10 A. I think it was severely damaged. There was no roof, and the walls
11 were severely damaged. It could not longer be used for its purpose.
12 Q. Thank you. When your father left Belgrade, did he bring a weapon
14 A. I don't think so.
15 Q. Did he return his uniform and regulation, standard-issue weapon
16 that he had before he left Belgrade?
17 A. I don't know. How am I supposed to know something like that.
18 Q. Thank you. Before your evacuation that you have described, had
19 you ever been to Ovcara and when?
20 A. Yes, I had. As a child I would go there. We cycled around the
22 Q. But as a child you say. That was the last time you had been in
23 the area prior to your evacuation?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What about the map that the OTP showed you which you marked. Was
1 it yesterday that you saw that particular map for the first time or did
2 you see that particular map earlier on?
3 A. I've seen maps of Vukovar.
4 Q. I'm asking about this particular one. Was yesterday the first
5 time you saw it?
6 A. I'm not sure what you mean by earlier. When earlier? I'm sorry,
7 but you'll need to specify. When specifically when you say "earlier."
8 I've seen a great deal of Vukovar maps. I lived there and later on I
9 dealt with these maps.
10 Q. I will be patient enough to ask the same question for the third
11 time. The map that you used and marked yesterday in the courtroom with a
12 red highlighter, did you ever see that map before; and if so, when?
13 A. The OTP showed me that map and asked me whether I could mark on
14 this map my location during the war.
15 Q. Thank you. When and where?
16 A. Before my testimony, when we spoke.
17 Q. Thank you. Did you at that time also mark the same spots that you
18 marked here in the courtroom?
19 A. Yes, all of them.
20 Q. The JNA breakthrough at Mitnica, you say that many JNA soldiers
21 were killed when they tried to achieve a breakthrough at Mitnica. Do you
22 know exactly how many of their soldiers were killed, the JNA soldiers?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you know how many ZNG soldiers were killed on that occasion?
25 A. I know there were casualties on both sides.
1 Q. You are at this time living within the headquarters of the ZNG for
2 Mitnica. Did you have that information about their casualties or not?
3 A. No, I didn't.
4 Q. I would just like to go back to that map. Did you use a red pen
5 also when you talked to the OTP to make the same markings that you made in
6 the courtroom? Was it marked in red? Or how was it marked?
7 A. No. I just indicated the places that the OTP wanted to know
9 Q. Is that the reason then why you took no time getting your bearings
10 with the map when you saw it in court yesterday, because you saw the map
11 previously and used it to mark all these spots the day before you appeared
12 in court. Was that the reason?
13 A. You're stating a fact there. I'm not sure I can see a question
14 there. We're talking about a map of a place of which I was a resident. I
15 lived there.
16 Q. I will not be pursuing this any further. I think your position is
17 crystal clear.
18 Back in Sremska Mitrovica you provided three statements. Were all
19 these three statements signed by you?
20 A. I think so because that's what the officer demanded, the officer
21 who requested that I give these statements.
22 Q. Thank you. Do you know the name of this officer who interrogated
23 you three times?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Before you signed these statements -- well, first of all, my
1 apologies. Did you write your own statement, physically write it, you?
2 A. Yes. I handwrote the statement myself. There was no typewriter
3 or anything -- any other piece of equipment to use.
4 Q. Thank you. Do you know who Dr. Njavro is?
5 A. He's a doctor, a surgeon I believe, from the Vukovar Hospital.
6 Q. When is the last time you saw him?
7 A. At the anniversary of Vukovar's occupation on the 11th -- on the
8 18th of November, 2005.
9 Q. I understand you marked the anniversary of Vukovar's occupation.
10 Is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. Did you discuss with the doctor what had happened in
13 Vukovar in 1991 on this occasion?
14 A. You mean at this anniversary?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. No. We just exchanged greetings, but we did not speak after that.
17 Q. Thank you. Do you know how many employees the Vukovar Hospital
18 had in November?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Thank you. If I tell you that there were about 350 employees
21 there in November, would you agree with me?
22 A. I've already said I'm not familiar with that. I'm not sure why I
23 should agree or disagree with you on that.
24 Q. Thank you. The times you went to the hospital, did you see any
25 security at the entrance?
1 A. When we came, shells were falling all the time. It was very
2 dangerous. You didn't linger at the entrance. There wasn't anyone there
3 as far as I noticed, and I certainly didn't see any armed persons.
4 Q. You were standing outside waiting for those people to come back,
5 those who were carrying the wounded?
6 A. I didn't stand there waiting. I drove up. I did what I had to
7 do, and I drove straight back.
8 Q. What about the Bozidar Zugec is that a name that rings a bell?
9 A. Yes, he was a close family friend.
10 Q. What about Emil Aleksandar?
11 A. Another close friend. They all worked at the post office.
12 Q. The Defence has information that they were in charge of liaison
13 between the post office and the ZNG at the time. What would you say about
15 A. I know that they were in charge of setting up communications with
16 the rest of Croatia, between Vukovar and the rest of Croatia. It was
17 later in my office that I saw emails, messages, that had been written
18 personally by Mr. Aleksandar and Mr. Zugec.
19 Q. Thank you. But did they have any military assignments during the
20 Vukovar operation?
21 A. I'm not sure what you mean by military, but they didn't have
22 weapons and they were not actively involved in combat. They were in
23 charge of maintaining our communication lines with the rest of Croatia. I
24 saw that they sent on information on the numbers of dead and wounded in
25 Vukovar, as well as the lists of those people who had either been killed
1 or wounded.
2 Q. And did your husband have any tasks had those areas, since he also
3 worked at the post office, especially after they moved into the basement?
4 A. Everybody who worked at the post office at the time was involved
5 in servicing or maintaining these communication lines.
6 Q. Thank you. Does your father receive his retirement benefits now?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. From whom?
9 A. Upon returning to Croatia, upon being exchanged, he became an
10 active serviceman in the Croatian army. He became a member of an
11 orchestra within the Croatian army and then retired from there.
12 Q. How many years did he work for the Croatian army?
13 A. I think for about two years because he was quite ready for
15 Q. All right. And what about your husband, where did he work?
16 A. My husband also worked in the data processing. He was into
17 software, computers, and so on. He did that within our office, and
18 following that he went to work for the Ministry of Defence.
19 Q. All right. Thank you. Do you know who shot down the two JNA
20 planes that were already described in your testimony?
21 A. I believe that it was done by the Vukovar defenders. They shot
22 down the planes who had bombed the city -- which had bombed the city.
23 Q. All right. Do you know what they used to shoot down the planes?
24 Was it pistols, rifles?
25 A. No, I don't know that. I wasn't present and I didn't see it.
1 Q. Thank you?
2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I completed my
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic.
5 Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
7 morning to everyone in the courtroom.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:
9 Q. Mrs. Foro, good morning to you as well. My name is Novak Lukic,
10 and on behalf of the Defence team of Veselin Sljivancanin I will be
11 putting questions to you now. I will be mostly exploring the topics
12 covered by you yesterday in your examination-in-chief. You mentioned my
13 client quite frequently. However, at the outset I will put some other
14 questions which are important for Defence and which have to do with
15 persons that you could tell us something about, since, according to our
16 information, these people were your neighbours from Mitnica. Zeljko and
17 Zeljka Duvnjak, do these names mean anything to you?
18 A. The last name sounds familiar. There was several families with
19 that last name, but I can't put a face to that name.
20 Q. I was told that Zeljka is a sister of Loburic called Max. Does
21 that mean anything to you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What about Franjo nicknamed Brada, shopkeeper?
24 A. And what is the last name?
25 Q. I don't have information on the last name. All I have is the
1 nickname, Brada. He was a shopkeeper.
2 A. No.
3 Q. What about the Mandic, Slobodan? He was a driver who worked for
5 A. No. I knew some other people with that last name, but not
6 Slobodan Mandic.
7 Q. All right. Let us see if we can cover this quickly. If you know,
8 fine; if not, let us proceed. Covic, the vet. I think his first name was
9 Domagoj or something similar?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Ivica Boskovic?
12 A. No.
13 Q. The Kasalo brothers, Ivica, Nikola, and Drago?
14 A. I know them. They lived at the end of the street where my house
15 was. I know Ivica Kasalo.
16 Q. Was he a member of ZNG? Did he take part in the defence of the
18 A. I think that Ivica Kasalo was a member.
19 Q. Matkovic, Ivica, was that ring a bell?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Just one more question pertaining to your neighbours. Do you know
22 where the house of Dr. Crevar was located?
23 A. I believe that the house of Dr. Crevar was by the water-tower, if
24 we have the same person in mind. He was a gynaecologist. Is that right?
25 Q. I don't have such information. All I know is that this is where
1 the prison where Serbs was located. Do you know anything about that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. I have already heard you giving an answer to this question, but
4 always linked to other questions. Yesterday you described the day when
5 Mitnica surrendered and when all other events happened, including Ovcara.
6 What date was it?
7 A. The 18th of November.
8 Q. All right. That's precisely what I wanted to hear you say. Now,
9 could you please go back to that period of time and tell me whether during
10 that time you heard the name of any other JNA officer except for my
11 client? Did you meet any other JNA officer?
12 A. I have to admit that I can't remember all the names that I heard.
13 Perhaps I did hear some other names.
14 Q. But you remember my client?
15 A. Yes, because we met. That's why I remember him. I didn't meet
16 any other senior JNA officers, and Mr. Sljivancanin introduced himself to
18 Q. All right. But as we heard yesterday, his name is something that
19 you had heard even before meeting him. Is that right?
20 A. Yes. His name was mentioned in connection with negotiations.
21 Q. What about the his face? Was his face also familiar to you even
22 before you met him?
23 A. No.
24 Q. But you remember seeing him there during the surrender of weapons,
25 and later on that same man came up to you, introduced him as Sljivancanin?
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. I will now briefly cover with you the time sequence, time-line of
3 events you testified about. I will bring you through it quickly and I
4 will ask you to just confirm whether this is true or not. Your
5 negotiators left in the morning?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you be more specific about the time of the day. When did they
8 leave the headquarters to go to negotiate?
9 A. No -- in the morning about 8.00 or 9.00.
10 Q. Thank you. And then they returned at around noon?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And then they said that all of you had to be in front of the
13 veterinary station an hour at the latest. Is that right?
14 A. Yes. However, this took some time. It took some time for people
15 to gather there.
16 Q. Well, how long did it take?
17 A. I think it took perhaps two hours. There was a column of
18 civilians, column of troops, so it took some time.
19 Q. But there were two columns of people?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. And then from there you head towards the new cemetery?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And there, at that spot, the defenders of the city, as you call
24 them, surrendered their weapons, which was between 14 and 1500 hours. Is
25 that right?
1 A. Yes. It was still daylight when they surrendered weapons. It was
2 still daytime.
3 Q. And there, as they surrendered weapons, you saw representatives of
4 the International Red Cross and European mission listing the names of
5 persons surrendering weapons. Is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. At around that time you also saw Cyrus Vance monitoring and
8 observing the surrender of weapons?
9 A. Yes. He stood to the side, separate from the group.
10 Q. And all of that took place during daytime while it was still
11 daylight, so sometime after 1400 hours? Could it be then?
12 A. Yes, because in November it gets dark at around 4.30 in the
14 Q. All right. But it was still daylight?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And then those who had surrendered weapons were taken away as well
17 as a large number of civilians who were not in vehicles, such as you, they
18 were taken somewhere?
19 A. Yes. They were taken from that spot, soldiers who had surrendered
20 weapons, and the column started moving along so that after the curve near
21 the cemetery they boarded the buses which, according to what I learned
22 later, went to Croatia or to some prisons in Serbia. That's what I heard.
23 Q. And you remained there by the cemetery in your vehicle waiting
24 until the evening, 21 or 2200 hours?
25 A. Yes, that's right. The evacuation was in progress during that
2 Q. And then, escorted by a military vehicle, you travelled to Ovcara
3 for some 20 minutes. And, according to what you told us yesterday, you
4 arrived in Ovcara between 22 and 22.30. It was already dark?
5 A. Yes, that's right. It was already late in the evening.
6 Q. You described what us what happened in Ovcara, but you didn't tell
7 us when, in your estimate, you left Ovcara.
8 A. We stayed in Ovcara for about an hour. I don't know how it took,
9 maybe an hour and a half. I don't know how long it took for that entire
10 procedure to be completed, the one I described. Perhaps it took about an
11 hour and a half all together.
12 Q. I'm not asking you after all this time to be more specific than
13 that. Then finally you said that on the following morning at around 2.00
14 you arrived in Sremska Mitrovica?
15 A. Yes. That was very early that morning, at 2.00 or 3.00 a.m.
16 Q. You described to us yesterday the situation in which you saw Cyrus
17 Vance. That was the first time you ever mentioned that incident. You
18 didn't mention it previously when giving statement to the OTP.
19 A. I gave my statement to the investigators in 1995, and we didn't go
20 into details about the Mitnica surrender. We didn't bring up the details.
21 The focus was for me to say that I was at Ovcara and that I saw there the
22 JNA officer Major Sljivancanin.
23 Q. Tell me please, how is it that you're familiar with the face of
24 Cyrus Vance?
25 A. I know him from television.
1 Q. Do you remember how long were you able to watch television in
3 A. We watched television almost until October or November, or 10th or
4 11th of November. I told you that we had no electrical power at the time,
5 but we had a generator in the basement of our building.
6 Q. Do you remember what TV stations you were able to watch? Was it
7 Belgrade and Zagreb stations, do you remember?
8 A. I think that we watched the Zagreb television programme.
9 Q. Did you see at around that time my client on Zagreb television in
10 one of the reports borrowed from the Belgrade television?
11 A. I don't remember that.
12 Q. But at around that time you used to see Cyrus Vance on TV screens?
13 A. Yes, I did see him because we had all been expecting some kind of
14 an action of the international community. So we were interested in these
16 Q. And I suppose that you were also interested in learning the
17 reasons for the arrival of Cyrus Vance in the territory of the former
18 Yugoslavia and for his mission there?
19 A. Yes. I realised that he was the UN envoy for the former
20 Yugoslavia. He was sent by the secretary-general or somebody there.
21 Q. When you saw him there, when the weapons were surrendered, I
22 assumed that he wasn't there alone, that he had some people accompanying
23 him. Do you remember that?
24 A. I don't remember that. I really didn't pay much attention to it.
25 I saw a group of people, among which I recognised Cyrus Vance. All of
1 them stood near the limo that I described to you. All of them wore suits.
2 So in that sense they stood out from the other people standing there.
3 Q. That's what I wanted to ask you. I know that you mentioned the
4 limo previously. Do you remember what he was dressed like? Did he have a
5 coat or a hat?
6 A. Most likely I wouldn't have noticed them there because there was a
7 lot of people standing there, but they stood out precisely because of the
8 clothes that they wore and the vehicle that was there. That was quite an
9 unusual sight. They all wore suits, and there was this great huge limo
11 Q. And among those people, you recognised the envoy of the
12 Secretary-General, the UN Secretary-General, Mr. Cyrus Vance?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That was on the 18th of November at around what time of the day,
15 between 12.00 and 5.00?
16 A. That was -- well, when the surrender of weapons took place, at the
17 same time, so it may have been between 3.00 and 4.00 in the afternoon.
18 Q. Very well. Ms. Foro, if I told you that at this time Mr. Vance
19 was in a meeting with Ante Markovic in Belgrade, what would you say?
20 A. If what you're telling me is true, then probably I am mistaken or
21 I'm simply mistaken about the time.
22 Q. If I told you that in this same chair where you are sitting now we
23 had Mr. Vance's personal advisor. I asked him clearly what he knew about
24 the surrender of weapons at Mitnica or whether he had heard anything about
25 it. He said he knew nothing about that, nor was Cyrus Vance in Vukovar at
1 all on that day.
2 A. I testified about what I had seen. You're saying something
3 different, and it's up to the Chamber to determine what the truth is.
4 Q. But you came here to testify under oath about the facts that you
5 were familiar with and say everything to the best of your knowledge,
6 everything with us.
7 A. That is true.
8 Q. You know that whenever you say something that is not truthful or
9 you are not positive about, it is better to be clear about that and say
10 that you're not sure as opposed to stating something with an appearance of
12 A. I testified about things that I personally witnessed. That's all.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now please have a
14 break? Although this is not our usual time, but this is a logical rupture
15 in my cross-examination. We have to up the ante, as they say, and use
16 some other documents -- use some other documents. So we can now have a
18 JUDGE PARKER: To accommodate your every wish, Mr. Lukic, we will
19 have a break. We will resume at 25 minutes to 1.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 12.12 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.39 p.m.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. [Interpretation] I will now continue with my questions in relation
25 to, for the most part, to yesterday's testimony. Yesterday on page 29 of
1 the working transcript, as we call it, you described how you moved along
2 in that column, as you called it -- or, rather, let me not lead you on
3 this. As you moved in that column of civilians around the cemetery, did
4 you see the moment when the town defenders handed over their weapons or
5 surrendered their weapons?
6 A. Yes. That happened at the cemetery. Our column of civilians
7 reached the cemetery, and I noticed that the town's defenders, those who
8 were armed members of the National Guards Corps, were laying down their
9 weapons and the weapons were then taken by the JNA soldiers. This
10 happened in the immediate vicinity of the road that the column was
11 travelling on, the column of civilians.
12 Q. Would I be right in saying that the weapons were being laid down
13 on the road, the same road that the column was using at this same time?
14 A. No. The civilians were walking along that road, and the soldiers
15 were 2 or 3 metres off the road, not on the asphalt surface. And that was
16 where they laid down and surrendered their weapons. You can see it in
17 video clips and paragraphs.
18 Q. As you said during your testimony today, the town's defenders had
19 uniforms and insignia. Were they wearing their uniforms at the time when
20 they surrendered their weapons?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You also testified about the civilian protection. What about its
23 members? Did they, too, surrender their weapons on this occasion?
24 A. No, because they had no such weapons in their possession. They
25 would only be given weapons when they were standing guard.
1 Q. You did say that, but you weren't clear about the time-line of the
2 surrender itself; however, thank you for clarifying that point for me.
3 You also testified that when they surrendered their weapons they were
4 listed by a representative of the International Red Cross and an EC
5 monitor. I think you said that today.
6 A. I saw them standing nearby. They were monitoring the surrender of
7 weapons and drawing up lists with people's names.
8 Q. I have a specific question. Did you see a piece of paper in their
9 hands? Were they asking people their names, checking people's identities?
10 Can you please describe the physical set-up of the situation at the
11 handover of the surrender of weapons. What exactly did you see?
12 A. I saw a representative of the International Red Cross and an EU
13 monitor, I saw the fighters surrendering their weapons, and I saw this
14 representative of the International Red Cross addressing each and every
15 individual, each and every of those persons who were in the process of
16 surrendering their weapons.
17 Q. Do I understand you when I say that this list of the International
18 Red Cross list that was drawn up on the 18th of November is the list that
19 you saw later on in Zagreb when you started working there. Is that right?
20 A. I saw this list containing the names of 180 people who laid down
21 their weapons, but I'm not sure that it was the same list that was drawn
22 up at the time. I can't confirm this simply because I did not see the
23 list at the time.
24 Q. I fully agree with that, but the one that you did see, was it
25 marked in any way in order to show that it was drawn up by the
1 International Red Cross? Did it bear a date perhaps, do you remember, the
2 one that you saw later?
3 A. I don't think it had any sort of sign or distinctive mark, but we
4 dealt with a great many lists. And it's possible that I never saw the
5 original one put together by the International Red Cross. Maybe it was
6 entered into a database later on and a printout was made or something like
8 Q. But there's no heading, no stamp, no sign of the International Red
9 Cross. Do you remember seeing anything like that?
10 A. No, I don't.
11 Q. Would you rule out as impossible the following suggestion, namely
12 that the list was actually drawn up by the JNA?
13 A. The JNA had a lot of opportunities to draw up this and other such
14 lists, since all those that surrendered their weapons were seen as
15 prisoners of war and they subsequently ended up in prisons all over
17 Q. Which means that you can't rule this suggestion out as something
18 that was impossible?
19 A. Well, that they could easily afford to make a list, one list each
21 Q. Again I'm asking: Can you rule my suggestion out as impossible?
22 Please answer yes or no. Do you think that is impossible or may that as
23 well have been the case?
24 A. I've answered the question. It would have been quite possible.
25 They could have made a list for every day they kept those people.
1 Q. You also testified yesterday that when you were there for the
2 surrender of weapons you saw a person at Ovcara who introduced himself as
3 Major Sljivancanin. You had the impression that he was the man in charge,
4 to put it quite simply. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to show
7 a video. I believe the witness has already seen this video many times,
8 because based on what we know she had been shown this footage on many
9 occasions. This is V0001-626. It's an OTP exhibit. This is a video
10 clip. It's quite lengthy. It goes on for over 60 minutes, I think about
11 70 minutes. I'm about to show a sequence with no translation. I don't
12 think it's material to this particular portion to have a translation. As
13 to what I know about the transcript, I think the OTP has prepared a
14 transcript for a different portion of that video that will later be
15 tendered into evidence. I would like to play the video now, and please if
16 the witness can state clearly whenever she recognises a face or a person
17 in the video.
18 [Videotape played]
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can this please be assigned a number,
20 this video?
21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 124.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Ms. Foro, what about the this video? Does that seem familiar? Is
25 this, in very rough terms, the same thing that you saw as you were passing
1 along in that column?
2 A. I believe you have just shown the very end of the process of
3 surrendering weapons. The first to go were people who were wearing
4 uniforms, as I previously stated, and those who negotiated on behalf of
5 the National Guards Corps headquarters from Mitnica.
6 Q. Were the negotiators the only ones wearing uniforms or were all
7 ZNG members? There were over 180 people, ZNG members, there who laid down
8 their arms on that occasion as members of the ZNG. Did you recognise
9 anyone? Did a face seem familiar?
10 A. I have already seen the entire footage, which is over an hour
11 long, and I did recognise people back then but not in this particular
12 portion because the quality of the image is not that good.
13 Q. I'm sure the OTP will probably be tendering the whole video. It
14 really is quite long, and we shall see how many people there were who were
15 in uniform. But I have this question to ask you: Did you at any point
16 during this short clip see my client?
17 A. No, not in the portion that you have just shown, that you have
18 just played.
19 Q. Did you ever see a single frame in any one of these videos showing
20 the surrender of weapons where my client could actually be shown?
21 A. Are we talking about the footage that I have personally seen or
22 are we talking about my personal experience there, what I witnessed?
23 Q. I'm asking you if you have ever seen a video with my client in it
24 at the surrender of weapons?
25 A. No, no videos.
1 Q. You told us what you personally witnessed, that's all right. But
2 tell me: In this video, did you see a representative of the International
3 Red Cross?
4 A. No, not in the portion just shown.
5 Q. To avoid mistakes, Mr. Borsinger actually walks right through;
6 there's this short sequence where we can see him. But did you ever see
7 any video recording showing the International Red Cross representative
8 making lists of people as people were surrendering their weapons?
9 A. I don't remember.
10 Q. In this video I see many people with long hair and beards. Can
11 you comment on that?
12 A. You mean the JNA people or the people surrendering their weapons?
13 Q. I assume you know who I mean, don't you? I mean the people
14 surrendering their weapons.
15 A. Yes. There weren't that many to begin with. There was no running
16 water in Vukovar. It was very difficult to wash on a regular basis. None
17 of them sported beards. Those were just unshaven individuals. I did
18 notice, however, that the JNA people in this video did have beards.
19 Q. Another thing that's important. Where did you leave your vehicle
20 when you got there in relation to the HPV and those vehicles over there?
21 Where did you leave your vehicles and did you leave the car keys on the
22 front seat?
23 A. I have no idea where the administration building was. I'm not
24 that familiar with that particular area. I was never there. I'd never
25 been to the administration building. I know there are hangars there.
1 Q. Well, in relation to the hangar.
2 A. It's next to one of the hangars in a flat area, a flat, open area.
3 Q. Were all the vehicles there?
4 A. Yes. There must have been three or four columns of vehicles with
5 five vehicles each, five or six.
6 Q. Thank you. You gave a statement to the OTP in 1995 on the 14th of
7 September, that's at least what the statement says. The statement was
8 read back to you in a language you understand. It was back-translated for
10 A. Yes, that's true.
11 Q. And you signed a copy of the statement that was taken down in
12 English. Right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You were also familiar with the fact that the statement contained
15 everything that you knew at the time to the best of your recollection and
16 whatever you answered to the questions of the Prosecutor?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I heard this a while ago, but please confirm this, if you can.
19 You went through this statement again with the Prosecutor the other day.
20 You provided certain comments, additions, and amendments, corrections, to
21 your previous statement, details that were erroneously recorded and
22 certain additional comments that you made?
23 A. Yes. They asked me broader questions about certain details, and I
24 answered to the best of my ability, answered the question.
25 Q. Yes, I agree with that. But there are parts of your statement
1 that remain and have not been amended, and you stood by those portions
2 also when you talked to the OTP some days ago. Is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I will now read a very short portion from the statement for my
5 learned friend Mr. Agha. In the English version, this is page 4, the last
6 three ERN numbers are 333. It is the second-last passage. Very briefly.
7 You talked about Mr. Sljivancanin's speech, and you go on to
8 say -- and you read this again with the OTP some days ago: "Elderly women
9 and women with children boarded one or two buses that set out. We who
10 remained, because we were neither mothers nor elderly ladies, were told to
11 get on the bus but without our men. We refused and remained standing
12 there. Then we said that Major Sljivancanin had explained that we were
13 all going in the same direction and that there was no reason for us to
14 part ways. Major Sljivancanin and a few other soldiers started talking
15 among themselves and finally allowed us to get on the bus."
16 Do you remember stating something like that?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Is this how it happened?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Because you gave a slightly different account yesterday, didn't
21 you? I'll ask you specifically --
22 A. How different? What do you mean?
23 Q. Yesterday you testified in chief on page -- let us find the page,
24 track it down. It's page 41, page 41 of the transcript.
25 [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... "said that the
1 men had to be separated from the women next and that we were all going in
2 the same direction."
3 [Interpretation] So it wasn't Sljivancanin who told you, it was
4 someone else. But then you addressed the things that he had told you
5 previously. Yes or no, please.
6 A. Excuse me, but I'm not sure what the point is. What is your
7 question? What did I misstate?
8 Q. It's very simple. Who told you that the women and the men should
9 go their separate ways, be separated?
10 A. Major Sljivancanin. He was giving orders. He was telling people
11 what to do.
12 Q. But in your statement you said it was somebody else who had told
13 you that. It was only after that that you turned to Sljivancanin with
14 this problem because he had told you previously that you would all be
15 going together in the same direction?
16 A. No, I'm sorry, you got that wrong. Major Sljivancanin said we
17 would all be going together in the same direction, but after that he said
18 that men were to be separated from the women and the women should get on
19 that bus or those buses. And then people started commenting: Why on
20 earth should we be separated now if it is really true that we are all
21 going in the same direction?
22 Q. Well, did you listen carefully what I read back to you what you
23 said in 1990 [as interpreted]?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. And what you stated in 1995?
1 A. Well, I don't think this debate has any sense. I said in 1995 the
2 same thing I'm saying now, that Major Sljivancanin gave a speech and that
3 in that speech he said we would all be evacuated to Croatia. After that,
4 after the elderly women left and women with children left, he asked that
5 women and men be separated. The comments were: Why should we be
6 separated if he previously said we were all going in the same direction.
7 That is what I said then and this is what I'm saying now. Excuse me.
8 Q. Well, I cannot excuse that. I have to go back to that. At the
9 time you did not tell The Hague investigators then or a few days ago when
10 you were looking over the statement with the Prosecutor --
11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, I think in view of the precise detail
12 that you want to raise, it would be fair for the witness to have a copy of
13 what was said.
14 MR. AGHA: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You're absolutely right, Your Honour.
16 Q. There's a statement in -- a copy of the statement in B/C/S. This
17 part is highlighted in yellow. You went over that part with the
18 Prosecutor a few days ago. The second sentence, please follow along.
19 "We women who stayed behind, because we were not mothers or
20 elderly women, were told to board the bus but without our men."
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. Just a moment, please.
23 "We refused and kept standing there. Then we said that Major
24 Sljivancanin had explained that such-and-such thing."
25 So it would seem, on the basis of this sentence, that he told you
1 that. Yes or no?
2 A. What do you mean? From the sentence "we said" --
3 Q. Well, it seems that from this sentence it can be concluded that he
4 said that to you.
5 A. He told us to get on the bus. He was issuing the orders. He was
6 telling us what to do. Obviously in the translation, since it was being
7 taken down in English, there was a misunderstanding of some kind. But in
8 any case Major Sljivancanin was issuing orders. He gave the speech, and
9 he was saying who should do what. He commented that Major Sljivancanin
10 previously said that we were all going in the same direction and that
11 there was no need in that case to be separated.
12 Q. But you did not tell The Hague investigator that
13 Major Sljivancanin had told you that you needed to separate. You didn't
14 tell him that, did you? Yes or no.
15 A. I think that I did.
16 Q. Thank you. In your testimony yesterday you said that there was a
17 discussion after that between Sljivancanin and those paramilitaries, as
18 you called them - I'm going to use that term - who were complaining why he
19 said that you should go together. That's what you said yesterday.
20 A. I didn't say that. There was a discussion. We didn't hear what
21 was being said, but we could see that there was a discussion going on.
22 They went off to the side, off from the group, and there was a debate
23 going on. I don't know exactly what happened during the discussion.
24 Q. That's what you said. And then Sljivancanin came and told you
25 that you should all go together, and then you all went on the bus
2 A. Sljivancanin interrupted the discussion and ordered that we all
3 board the buses.
4 Q. These paramilitaries, let me define them like that, then, as you
5 said on page 42, were extremely angry.
6 A. Yes, they were angry.
7 Q. When you came to Sremska Mitrovica you didn't get any
8 explanation - that's what you said yesterday - why you were brought there
9 and not to Croatia. Is that correct?
10 A. Nobody saw it fit to explain anything to us there.
11 Q. Yesterday you also testified that what Sljivancanin told you was
12 different from what he actually did. Is that correct? Do you remember
13 saying that?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Can you please reply just with yes or no. That is your conclusion
16 because you didn't go where you were supposed to go, so that was your
17 conclusion that he changed. What happened was not actually what he said?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 Q. You didn't hear from anyone that it was his decision. This is
20 something that you assumed based on your image of my client and the
21 importance that you attached to him based on what you saw him doing. Is
22 that correct?
23 A. He's a person who introduced himself as a person who was giving
24 orders in that area.
25 Q. Please answer my question. We heard that already.
1 You did not hear him say that the route would be changed --
2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, I'm sorry to interrupt, but in fairness
3 that was a direct answer to your question. You asked: Did you assume?
4 She said: No. Your client had introduced himself as in charge. That
5 was, in her answer, her basis for the views she formed. Now, if you
6 didn't understand that, fine; but if you did, what you went on to say was
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour. I think that
9 her answers were actually quite clear regarding what I wanted to hear.
10 Q. At the end, at Ovcara - I'm not talking about further
11 developments - at Ovcara you actually boarded the bus together with your
12 husband. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. It all ended there at Ovcara when you boarded the bus in the way
15 that Mr. Sljivancanin had previously told you - is that correct - that you
16 would be going to Croatia together with your husband, and that applied to
18 A. I don't know how you mean. Going to Croatia is one thing and
19 going to Mitrovica is another. It did not end the way the commander, the
20 person who introduced himself as the commander, said it would.
21 Q. You boarded the bus with your husband, despite the loud protests
22 of the paramilitaries as you were boarding it. Is that correct?
23 A. We boarded the buses and the buses set off.
24 Q. Thank you. That is what I wanted to hear. You said that you
25 worked in a state organ at the health ministry. During the days in
1 Mitrovica or later when you had access to, evidently, important
2 information, did you hear that convoys could not cross into the territory
3 of Croatia in that period because the Croatian authorities did not want to
4 admit them? Did you hear that?
5 A. No, I didn't hear it in the way you are putting it.
6 Q. I don't have a problem with that. What do you say to my assertion
7 that there was a TV programme broadcast on Croatian television about
8 Vukovar yesterday and there was a conversation between Mr. Dedakovic and
9 Tudjman played when Mr. Dedakovic requests Mr. Tudjman to have children
10 and the elderly evacuated, and Tudjman literally replied to him that this
11 was out of the question at that point in time. Would I be making a
12 mistake if I were to tell you that this is what I heard on Croatian
13 television yesterday?
14 A. Well, I wouldn't know if you were making a mistake or not because
15 I was not listening to Croatian television yesterday.
16 Q. During your stay at your post where you were working, did you ever
17 hear any stories about the Croatian leadership in Zagreb being in favour
18 of preventing Croatian civilians leaving the area of Vukovar when they
19 wanted to?
20 A. No, I did not.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. AGHA: Your Honour.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Agha.
24 MR. AGHA: May I bring to the Chamber's attention that a number of
25 these questions are speculative in nature, and, for example, about
1 watching the TV, not really a question which the witness can adequately
2 deal with or ought to be asked.
3 JUDGE PARKER: There is some substance in what you say, Mr. Agha,
4 but the Chamber is watching that and in each case this witness is not put
5 off or confused by being asked a question of that nature and she's dealing
6 with it in a straightforward way. So I don't think we need to intervene.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to say that at no
8 point was it my intention to confuse the witness. I wouldn't want anyone
9 to get that impression.
10 Q. Mrs. Foro, in your testimony you said that you saw my client in a
11 lot of places, that you heard that he was at the negotiations on
12 surrender, that you saw him during the surrender near the cemetery, and
13 finally that you saw him face-to-face and met him at Ovcara. Is that
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. These facts are based on your recollection, also are based on the
17 photograph that you described yesterday?
18 A. I mostly talked here about the things that I saw when I was in
19 Vukovar. I just mentioned that I saw a better photograph than the one we
20 saw yesterday where you can also see Major Sljivancanin.
21 Q. Well, I don't want to comment, but you didn't testify only about
22 the things you saw but also about the things you heard. You said that he
23 was present at the negotiations.
24 A. But I always indicated when I saw something and when I only heard
25 about it.
1 Q. These photographs that you had the opportunity to see later --
2 this photograph, actually, and you said that you can obtain it, you
3 remember that he was sitting at the table at the same place that Mr. Khan
4 pointed out to you yesterday. And based on that you conclude that his
5 hand is visible since you saw a better photograph with Major Sljivancanin
6 sitting at that place?
7 A. I saw the photograph, but it was taken from a different angle. So
8 I cannot tell you exactly where Mr. Sljivancanin sat, but I think I
9 indicated it. I saw a photograph which much better depicts exactly where
10 all the negotiators sat, including Major Sljivancanin.
11 Q. Well, let's be precise. Based on something that you know, you
12 said yesterday that that was his hand - is that correct - based on another
13 photograph that you saw?
14 A. Well, I said that I thought that was his hand, and if you excuse
15 me I think that this is a major difference.
16 MR. AGHA: Your Honours, just to -- and I'm sorry to interrupt
17 here. But actually, the witness has very quite rightly pointed out that
18 she assumed it was his hand and that is her belief, and that is very
19 clearly mentioned in the transcript. It is not a question that she said
20 it was his hand. And that's at page 24, and I can actually read you the
21 part and the reply was: "So I assume that the hands we see there are his
22 hands, although I can't be quite certain. Of course, on the other
23 photograph I saw, I saw Mr. Sljivancanin."
24 So I think it would be both unfair and incorrect to make such an
25 assertion that the witness has actually said she saw his hands in her
1 prior testimony when that was not in fact the case.
2 JUDGE PARKER: I think you've taken that on board, Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand. But it seems to
4 me -- but -- well, it's the Prosecutor's right. With this line of
5 questioning I would like to establish where Mr. Sljivancanin sat based on
6 the photograph that the witness remembers. I just wish to confirm that
7 she said yesterday that she thought that that was his hand, on the basis
8 of the photograph from which she remembers his face well.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, had I been present at the
10 negotiations, then I would know exactly where Mr. Sljivancanin sat, all
11 the other negotiators, the Red Cross negotiators. When you see a
12 photograph from a different angle it always seems different and that's why
13 I did say that I assumed that is where he sat.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. I would like to ask you about this photograph where you say you
16 saw the face of Mr. Sljivancanin.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we in the meantime show the
18 witness Exhibit 120, that is that shot that the Prosecutor showed you
20 Q. My question is: Was Mr. Sljivancanin there in that photograph
21 from which you remember his face? What was he wearing? A uniform? Was
22 it a camouflage uniform? What kind of a uniform was it?
23 A. Well, I know definitely that he was wearing a uniform. I cannot
24 remember whether it was a camouflage uniform or an olive-drab uniform,
25 though it was probably a camouflage uniform; that is more likely. But I
1 cannot remember exactly. In any case, he was wearing a uniform.
2 Q. Very well. Can you remember, or am I asking you too much, what
3 his expression was on his face? Was he serious? Was he smiling? Do you
4 remember his facial expression on that photograph?
5 A. I think that he was serious. I don't ever recall seeing his
6 photograph in which he was smiling.
7 Q. And what you remember with certainty from this photograph and what
8 you testified about yesterday is that he sat at the table in the company
9 of these gentlemen?
10 A. Yes. I saw the photograph in which at the negotiations he was
11 present and the other three negotiators also.
12 Q. When you say "the other three negotiators," you mean the
13 negotiator from the JNA, from the ZNG, and the representative of the Red
15 A. No. I'm thinking of the three negotiators from the Croatian side.
16 Here you can only see Mr. Filip Karaula well in this shot.
17 Q. You marked these other individuals whom you have recognised. My
18 question was very simple and I don't think you answered it. What you
19 show -- what you saw on that photograph were Sljivancanin and these
21 A. What I saw on the photograph were three negotiators representing
22 the Croatian side and Sljivancanin.
23 Q. And they were all sitting?
24 A. I assume so.
25 Q. I'm asking you this because yesterday you stated that you supposed
1 that this arm that can be seen in the photograph was Mr. Sljivancanin's;
2 that's the only reason I asked you that. Please tell me: Did you ever
3 offer this photograph to the OTP?
4 A. Nobody ever asked me about it.
5 Q. But yesterday you said that you could get -- gain access to that
6 photograph and then deliver it to the court?
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. All right. When the negotiators came back and when they reported
9 on the success of negotiations, did they tell you what was the position of
10 my client during negotiations? Did they tell you about what he had
11 discussed, if anything?
12 A. I have to confess that at the time we didn't really focus on your
13 client; he wasn't the most important person for us. Rather, we were
14 interested in how to evacuate civilians from Vukovar and we were also
15 interested in our fate. So this is what we focussed more than on your
16 esteemed client.
17 Q. All right. I just wanted to see whether you had any recollections
18 concerning this. Please tell me: Am I wrong in saying that photographs
19 can be used as souvenirs but can also be used as evidence, proving certain
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are now going to take
23 a look at the second video clip from which the Prosecution took this frame
24 that they used yesterday in their examination-in-chief. This is the part
25 of that same video material, and I selected the portion which shows
1 certain events. And I assume that the Prosecution will tender into
2 evidence the entire footage.
3 Q. Please tell me when you see my client so that we can stop the
5 A. I can't see this clearly.
6 Q. You tell us which frame do you want us to pause on.
7 [Videotape played]
8 "UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yesterday they talk about surrender of
9 Croatian forces who are [unintelligible] in Mitnica.
10 "UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: He said that it was not exactly
11 surrendered arms. They want to speak about the way how -- how
12 [unintelligible] situation.
13 "UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: He said that we can only -- only that
14 things that the -- are --
15 "UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: His army --
16 "UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: -- His army had said.
17 "UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: He said that first when we speaking that
18 it was not starting the [unintelligible] end of his -- it was not shutting
19 the -- the -- between the [unintelligible].
20 "MR. BORSINGER: Can I make -- I need to explain to go through
21 this -- our -- the presence of the ICRC here is only in relation with
22 questions of humanitarian nature. We can also be here as a neutral
23 intermediary between both parties, if both parties request us to be a
24 neutral intermediary. So I would like both parties to have to think about
25 the exact role they want to give us and you want to give us, and I think
1 that if we proceed in this, I would suggest that it's without the presence
2 of the press, and I suggest that if we continue this session, unless both
3 parties want the press, I have no problem -- you prefer the press?
4 "UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: He said that about this" --
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This goes on for quite a while and the
6 Trial Chamber will have occasion to see the entire material. Could we be
7 given exhibit number for this entire document that we just saw?
8 JUDGE PARKER: Can I be clear whether it's the entire film or just
9 this part?
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I assume that right now it would be
11 best to introduce into evidence just this portion. Later on, when the
12 Prosecution is ready, I assume that they will tender in the entire footage
13 with the transcripts from negotiations, which I think lasted for about 20
14 minutes. For the time being, let us just tender into evidence this
16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 125.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Will you please answer my question briefly. Did you see
20 Major Sljivancanin in this clip?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Madam Foro, please tell me, am I wrong in claiming that
23 Major Sljivancanin did not take part in negotiations, that he was not in
24 command during surrender, that Mr. Vance was not in Vukovar on the 18th,
25 that the International Red Cross did not sign or did not put any names
1 down? Am I wrong?
2 A. No.
3 Q. My last question: Do you remember clearly the oath or the solemn
4 declaration that you took yesterday?
5 A. Absolutely.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Agha.
7 MR. AGHA: Before I move to re-examination, Your Honour, may I
8 just kindly ask the witness to, if she has the transcript before her, just
9 to be sure what her last answer was to the last question, which is at line
10 10, 13.30.28: Did she reply yes or no? I think it's page 92, line 10.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me assist. The witness said that
12 I was wrong. She said that what I stated was wrong.
13 Q. Am I right?
14 A. Yes. Your claims were not correct. The question was: Am I
15 wrong? And I answered: Yes, you are wrong.
16 MR. AGHA: Thank you, Your Honours. I just wanted to clarify
18 Re-examined by Mr. Agha:
19 Q. Now, Witness, during your cross-examination you mentioned that you
20 reached the precise figure of 180 people who surrendered when you started
21 working at the office of missing persons. Now, you yourself were
22 personally present at the surrender, so from your own personal observation
23 what, roughly, were the number of defenders who surrendered?
24 A. What is your question? Did I see the surrender or did I see what?
25 Q. Did you witness surrender and roughly how many fighters did you
1 witness surrendering?
2 A. I saw the surrender, the very beginning of it when they started
3 surrendering weapons. I saw that there was a number of people in that
4 column, in that line, between 150 and 200 people. That would be my
5 estimate. At the time I didn't know that the exact figure was 180. I
6 didn't count the people.
7 Q. Now, during your cross-examination it was also suggested that you
8 did not go out and leave the basement very much. On what occasions would
9 you briefly pop out of the basement? For example, for food or to the
10 bathroom or for things of that nature?
11 A. Yes, in order to go to the bathroom we had to go outside and that
12 was quite dangerous. A lot of people died while doing that. It's not
13 something I like to go back to in my mind. We also went out once a week
14 or once in two weeks, depending on what was going on, to go and visit my
15 family house. And that varied, depending on the intensity of the
16 shelling. It was very dangerous to go there, and on several occasions I
17 almost got killed.
18 Q. Now, it was also suggested in cross-examination that when you went
19 outside your powers of observation were not very sharp. How would you
20 comment on that suggestion?
21 A. Listen, when you leave a basement where you are practically
22 incarcerated throughout the entire time due to the shelling, so once you
23 come out and get into the streets that are very familiar to you, once you
24 find yourself in the neighbourhood where you used to live, then your
25 observation powers are quite powerful. You notice everything. You see
1 bodies blown to pieces by shells. You see the damaged houses, and you can
2 hear the shelling quite well. The town looked like on the day after a
3 nuclear catastrophe.
4 Q. Now, turning to a different area of your cross-examination it was
5 mentioned to you that when you reached the hospital, you got to the
6 hospital gates, you didn't go inside, and you were only able to see parts
7 of the hospital. Can you tell the Chamber what parts of the hospital you
8 were able to see, how much of the hospital?
9 A. From the gate one can see the entire yard and the hospital
10 building, the facade facing the main road.
11 Q. And what condition could you see the hospital was in from there?
12 A. I could see that it was quite damaged, that the window panes were
13 broken, that the walls had holes in them caused by shells. I saw that the
14 roof was damaged in the yard. I saw a lot of construction debris. All
15 the things that had fallen off due to the shelling, bricks, roof tiles,
16 and so on. I saw that that part of the building, the one above the
17 ground, could not be used, was not usable. One could not house patients
18 in that building.
19 Q. And what weapons did you see protruding from the parts of the
20 building you could see and have just described to the Court in your
22 A. I didn't see any weapons in the hospital. This is the third or
23 fourth time I've repeated this.
24 Q. Now, I'd like to turn to another area of your cross-examination,
25 and this is quite recently where we started to look at some videos. And
1 the first video learned Defence counsel showed you concerned the line or
2 group of people surrendering at Mitnica and laying down their arms. And
3 according to your evidence, only a portion of that surrender process was
5 MR. AGHA: So with the leave of the Court, I'd like to show a
6 further portion of that video, and I believe it's of the surrender of
7 Mitnica. And perhaps you could confirm whether you're able to recognise
8 anyone in that part. And the video showed with V000-1686, and it has 65
9 ter 311 -- I'm sorry. That's not the correct 65 ter my case manager has
10 kindly informed me.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, could I have a
12 five-minute break, please, if we're not bound to finish any time soon.
13 JUDGE PARKER: We would normally finish in six minutes' time --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.
15 JUDGE PARKER: We would normally finish in six minutes' time.
16 Would you prefer a break now?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I thought it would go on
18 for much longer.
19 JUDGE PARKER: I'm just going to check.
20 Mr. Agha, how do you see your schedule?
21 MR. AGHA: I will try and finish in six minutes, depending on the
22 length of this video clip, which I haven't actually seen myself.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Let's get on with it. Thank you.
24 MR. AGHA: So it is the ter number 311 after all, my case manager
25 has informed me.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. AGHA:
3 Q. Are you able to see this video, Witness, the clip?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And can you inform the Chamber whether this is also part of the
6 surrender at Mitnica?
7 A. Yes. This is the column of civilians moving along the road
8 towards the new cemetery.
9 Q. And which representative is that?
10 A. That is the International Red Cross man.
11 Q. So in fact he was present at the surrender, according to the
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. AGHA: May I kindly ask that this segment of the video be
16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 126.
18 MR. AGHA:
19 Q. And just for the record, it seems to be indicated by the learned
20 Defence counsel that the OTP plays you thousands and thousands and
21 thousands upon hours of videos. Could you kindly tell the Chamber how
22 many videocassettes the OTP showed you and for how many minutes when you
23 reached here.
24 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't object to the question, but I
2 sincerely don't believe that any of the Defence teams suggested what the
3 Prosecutor has said in the introductory part of his question. I don't
4 think any of my colleagues or I have ever said anything like that, but I
5 don't oppose his question as such.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
7 Yes, Mr. Agha.
8 MR. AGHA: Well, actually, for the record, Your Honour, you'll see
9 when --
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Agha, get on. The witness would like to
12 MR. AGHA: I beg your pardon, Your Honour.
13 Q. So after that video I would now like to turn to a different area
14 of your cross-examination, and this is at Ovcara. Now, you mentioned in
15 your evidence and also during cross-examination that there was a heated
16 discussion between Mr. Sljivancanin and the paramilitaries before you were
17 all allowed to continue on your way. Would it have appeared -- how angry
18 would it have been apparent that the paramilitaries were? Would it have
19 been apparent that the paramilitaries were angry with Mr. Sljivancanin?
20 A. I'll repeat this. The paramilitaries and Mr. Sljivancanin walked
21 away from that group and there was a debate, at least as far as I could
22 see, what was ended by Mr. Sljivancanin. He ordered all of us to get on
23 the buses, and I think they, the other party, were dissatisfied with this
24 decision that he had made. Of course there is also what he told my
25 husband later on. It's part of my statement, and that seems to confirm
1 this previous statement.
2 Q. Now, very briefly, turning to the second video which the Defence
3 counsel showed to you, and I don't -- I won't show you that video, and
4 also the question of the photograph where you believe that
5 Mr. Sljivancanin was at that negotiations. Now, this photograph which you
6 say you have seen, did it in fact have -- who was actually in it?
7 A. I saw Major Sljivancanin in the photograph, alongside with three
8 Croatian negotiators.
9 Q. And if it were possible, would you be prepared to bring that
10 photograph back to the Chamber?
11 A. Of course.
12 Q. Just to make sure I haven't forgot, did I ask the Chamber to
13 exhibit the last video clippage of the ICRC. I believe I did?
14 JUDGE PARKER: Exhibit 126.
15 MR. AGHA:
16 Q. Now back to the final question and that's regarding --
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me. Just one small intervention in the
19 transcript, Your Honour. Page 98, line --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me. May I have a short
21 break, please, a couple of minutes. That's all I need. It appears that
22 we shall go on discussing this for some time.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Please leave.
24 THE WITNESS: [In English] Thank you.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, your transcript intervention.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I may as well use the break for that.
3 Page 98, line 9 and 10, when she said she stated that the other man had
4 told her husband what she described yesterday where the paramilitaries
5 were, whereas based on the transcript we might conclude that it was
6 Sljivancanin who said this. Because the transcript states "he," and she
7 was describing that first man who said what she said yesterday, what her
8 husband said about getting on the bus and her husband got on the bus. So
9 that's the confusion I'm trying to avoid.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
11 We are over time, Mr. Agha. Clearly if you have only this one
12 final issue ...
13 MR. AGHA: Actually, there's two questions and they'll both be
14 quite brief.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
16 MR. AGHA: Although, Your Honour, after the witness has left there
17 is a question I won't be asking to her, but I would like the view of the
18 Chamber on it so as to save time.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Not today.
20 MR. AGHA: Maybe tomorrow.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE PARKER: We are sorry to have embarrassed you.
24 Yes, Mr. Agha.
25 MR. AGHA:
1 Q. Now, coming back to Mr. Vance at the surrender. Now, the person
2 who you think was Mr. Vance, did you personally go up to him and introduce
3 yourself at the surrender?
4 A. No.
5 Q. No --
6 A. No, I didn't approach them. I saw them from the road.
7 Q. Now, apart from the question of possible mistake about Mr. Vance,
8 in all other respects would you regard your evidence of what you
9 personally saw as being accurate?
10 A. I testified about what I saw. I testified truthfully. My
11 testimony is entirely truthful. I can't remember a single thing that I
12 merely heard without explicitly indicating that. I am quite positive that
13 I saw Mr. Vance there wearing a suit, accompanied by some other people who
14 were also wearing suits. It was quite obvious to me at the time that he
15 just arrived from some sort of meeting, an official one probably, in a
16 limousine. I saw him there and I think I'm right in saying that.
17 MR. AGHA: Thank you, Your Honour. That completes the
18 re-examination of this witness.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Foro, you'll be pleased to know that that
20 concludes the questioning and your evidence. You are at liberty, of
21 course, now to return to your home. The Chamber would thank you for your
22 attendance here and your assistance.
23 We will now adjourn. 9.00 a.m., tomorrow morning.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.52 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 30th day of
1 November, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.