Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5384

1 Friday, 3 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. May I remind you, Mr. Berghofer, of

7 the affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence which still

8 supplies. We will now continue with your evidence.

9 Mr. Vasic.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning.

11 Good morning to all.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Vasic: [Continued]

15 Q. Good morning, Witness.

16 A. Good morning, Mr. Vasic.

17 Q. Just as yesterday, please make a small pause after my questions so

18 that the interpreters may have sufficient time to interpret everything

19 we're saying.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I would also like to have the usher's

21 assistance, please, to give the witness a set of statements that the

22 Defence will be cross-examining on. Thank you.

23 Q. Mr. Berghofer, I would like to go back briefly to what you talked

24 about yesterday about those things that were happening in the hangar. Do

25 you remember if anybody described the people who were inside the hangar

Page 5385

1 while you were there?

2 A. Mr. Vasic, nobody asked and nobody wrote letters, as people say.

3 Q. What about anybody taking down the names of the people from your

4 group on your way out of the hangar, those from Vukovar?

5 A. Who do you mean?

6 Q. Did anybody take your names down, the group of five or six people

7 who you said were taken out of the hangar and returned to Vukovar?

8 A. No, not as far as I remember, Mr. Vasic.

9 Q. Thank you very much. If I were to tell you that we have heard

10 witnesses who claim that names were taken down in the hangar, especially

11 in relation to your group, the group that went back to Vukovar, would you

12 still stick to your previous statement and say that there was no such

13 thing or maybe you just didn't see it?

14 A. Throughout the two hours I was inside the hangar, nobody drew up

15 any lists or took any names down. There may be someone else who remembers

16 better than I do, and well done in that case. I don't.

17 Q. Mr. Berghofer, I'm about to move on to a different topic now.

18 It's in relation to that list of people you saw at Ovcara which you gave

19 to my learned friend here and which has been tendered into evidence as

20 Exhibit 228.

21 Mr. Berghofer, you said that upon your return to Croatia in March

22 1992, you compiled a list comprising 23 persons that you then believed to

23 have seen at Ovcara. Is that right?

24 A. Indeed, Mr. Vasic. As many as 25, perhaps. Between 22 and 25 I'd

25 say. These were just names that I remember because there was no way to

Page 5386

1 forget them.

2 Q. Did you in fact use these lists when you spoke to people from the

3 Croatian authorities, from the Ministry of the Interior when you gave your

4 statements and they compiled official notes?

5 A. Mr. Vasic, our people back in Croatia had no idea who had been at

6 Ovcara until I came along, and I was the first to give them about 25 or 27

7 different names. I was the first to identify those people simply because

8 most of those people were neighbours. We lived in the same area.

9 Q. Did I get this right? Does this mean that you were in touch with

10 the Croatian government, commission for missing persons, and did you give

11 these lists to them, too?

12 A. Mr. Vasic, I've lost track about how many times I gave those

13 statements about all the missing persons, so they were probably one of the

14 recipients. For example, in Belgrade, Vesko Krstajic, the judge, gave me

15 a complete list and asked me to circle whichever names seemed familiar,

16 which means that there were even more people on various lists.

17 Q. Before you testified in Belgrade in 2004, did you have occasion to

18 speak to the missing persons commission and go through that list of people

19 who were claimed to have gone missing at Ovcara?

20 A. I don't know, Mr. Vasic. It's been 14 years after all. If I

21 confirm while unsure and if I deny with no certainty in sight, there's no

22 point in -- to the whole exercise at all.

23 Mr. Vasic, there's no need for anybody to wave lists from Ovcara

24 in front of my face. You have Pero Simic, for example, who was only a

25 hundred metres away from me and I didn't take his name down. There were

Page 5387

1 people I still remembered at the time, but by the time I got down to it I

2 could no longer remember their names. It is you who make me think back to

3 all these things that happened at Ovcara and old images begin to flick

4 through my head.

5 Q. There's something I need to ask you, Mr. Berghofer. You've spent

6 the last 15 years, on and off at least, talking to the various bodies of

7 the Croatian authorities testifying in front of tribunals. Is it that

8 throughout all this time you were not really able to clearly remember all

9 the names at any point, the same situation as you claim to be in now, in

10 other words?

11 A. That sounds about right, Mr. Vasic.

12 Q. Thank you. This list that you've been shown by my learned friends

13 which is attached to the indictment, it was shown to you before your

14 testimony with the list of persons who allegedly went missing at Ovcara?

15 A. No, it wasn't like that, Mr. Vasic. I had to compile a list of my

16 own just like that, off the bat.

17 Q. What about the list that you drew up in March 1992? You used that

18 one, didn't you, in your interviews with the different bodies that you

19 spoke to. You also used this list during your testimony before the

20 chamber of the special court and Judge Vesko Krstajic at the Belgrade

21 trial?

22 A. Yes, but I relied on my memory.

23 Q. What I want to know is: Do you keep that list in your house, did

24 you leave it behind, or do you have it on you here in The Hague?

25 A. I don't have the list on me, Mr. Vasic. I haven't touched that

Page 5388

1 list for eight years. It's just a small slip of paper from one of my

2 folders. It was the last sheet in the folder, and I just jotted a couple

3 of things down. It was the same day that I was released, and I have not

4 touched it since. I haven't added anything to it since or taken any of

5 the names away from it.

6 Q. Thank you. Did you use this list while giving your statement to

7 the officials of the Ministry of the Interior on the 6th of April, 1992?

8 It's a statement of yours that we discussed yesterday, you remember?

9 A. Yeah, I probably used the list. I probably used the list. You

10 can start out with that assumption.

11 Q. Can you tell us when it was that you in fact remembered these nine

12 new persons who weren't originally on your list? Was that after Belgrade,

13 after your testimony before the Belgrade court, right?

14 A. Well, you're quite right, Mr. Vasic. Some before and some after

15 Belgrade. And sometimes I just bumped into one of their relatives. I was

16 just getting confused about some surnames yesterday, and it was at the

17 last minute that I finally remembered. Therefore, I don't keep all the 30

18 or 40 names in my head at all times.

19 Q. Throughout the last 15 years, did you speak to Mr. Cakalic or to

20 anybody else who knew anything about Ovcara about these events?

21 A. Mr. Vasic, to be perfectly frank, Cakalic lives far away from me,

22 700 or 800 kilometres; he lives somewhere on the coast now. I met

23 Guncevic before I first went to The Hague in 1995, 1996. He lived in

24 Zagreb at the time. He probably still does. I met Mladen Karlovic back

25 in 1996 when we arrived here. I met Zarko Kojic in 1996, likewise. I

Page 5389

1 didn't even recognise him at first. He had grown so, so much. I saw him

2 before our departure for Belgrade. I also met Cakalic, I'm not sure about

3 the year, it was the same year that five of your colleagues from Belgrade

4 came over to Zagreb and we gave a statement. We just exchanged greetings.

5 He was on his way out, and we shook hands. Then he left.

6 As for the statements, I did tell you that these lads were my

7 neighbours for the most part or my friends' children.

8 Q. Indeed, Mr. Berghofer. I just have two related questions. You

9 said they were either neighbours on your friends' children, but they still

10 weren't on your original list. Some of the names you only remember later

11 on, right?

12 A. Yes, quite right.

13 Q. Did you meet Mr. Cakalic before your testimony before the chamber

14 of the special crimes court in Belgrade?

15 A. No. First they came to get me and then we drove to Borovo, I

16 think he was staying with his daughter at the time, and then after that we

17 were off to Belgrade.

18 Q. You arrived in Belgrade together, right?

19 A. Yes, that's right, Mr. Vasic.

20 Q. Did you talk on your way there about your testimony, about your

21 memories?

22 A. What we really discussed most of the time was how each of us got

23 by in this new country that we now had, Croatia.

24 Q. Something else I need to ask you about these testimonies. Were

25 you part of that commission in 1992, the one that met in Budapest to give

Page 5390

1 certain statements to some representatives of the international community,

2 Yugoslavia, and Croatia at the time?

3 A. No, Mr. Vasic. I wasn't one of the people who made up that

4 delegation.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have Exhibit 228 placed

6 on the screen; that's the list.

7 I don't have this on my screen. I do have a hard copy, though,

8 which I can hand to the witness. I will go -- I hope we now have it on

9 our screens.

10 Q. Mr. Berghofer, you have it on the screen now, right?

11 A. Yes, I do, Mr. Vasic.

12 Q. Can you tell me this, please, I'll take one name at a time and you

13 tell me if you know whether any of these people were members of the

14 National Guards Corps or Vukovar's defenders. Can you do that for me?

15 A. Yes, I can, Mr. Vasic, but I'd like to help you first with this,

16 so if you just hear me out. I'll read the names out for you of people

17 whose names were first taken down back in 1992, and then I can mark out

18 for you the names that I remember later.

19 Q. Please go ahead.

20 A. Gavric, Dragan; Veber, Sinisa.

21 Q. Just a little more slowly so all the names may be accurately

22 recorded.

23 A. Vlaho, he was an ambulance driver with the hospital. I don't know

24 his name, but he was one of my neighbours, too. Goran Vidos. His father

25 was my boss. Pavlovic, Zeljko I think was his first name. He lived just

Page 5391

1 across the way from me. Sinisa Glavasevic, I made no special notes.

2 Everybody knew he was a journalist. Lili I couldn't remember at first.

3 He was a young lad, and I didn't remember him at first. Number 8 is

4 Jurela. I didn't know his first name, so I just wrote down Tomo Jurela's

5 son, and his mother's Zlatka, she's a nurse. Zvonko Iles, we used to call

6 him Zriko when we were children. We grew up together. Branko Polomija.

7 I just couldn't for the life of me remember anything about him at the

8 time, but I know that he worked for Radio Vukovar.

9 Number 11 and number 12, the Kolak brothers. I used to work with

10 their father. For a long time we worked in the same company. And the

11 young lads lived above my shop in Patkoviceva Street. It's all nearby.

12 Stjepan Herman, I've pointed that out already. That is Stjepan Sarac's

13 [phoen] who manned the phones and he lived above the shop. Svabo, last

14 name Herman, likewise, but his grand-dad or grand-grand-dad

15 grand-grand-grand-dad left Yugoslavia in 1962 or 1963, perhaps even

16 earlier, I really don't know. And the old Herman, the driver, the

17 haulier, the bus driver, he said himself when he came, he came in uniform.

18 He was armed. And we asked him: Well, which one are you? And he said:

19 I'm Herman nicknamed Svabo. Ante Bodruzic was one of the bosses at the

20 Danube hotel, head waiter or something. I did some upholstery work for

21 him. He was a client of mine and that's the reason I remember him.

22 Q. Mr. Berghofer, can you slow down a little so that all the names

23 can be recorded.

24 A. I agree, I agree. Thank you.

25 Q. Bodruzic, was he on the original list?

Page 5392

1 A. Yes, there was no way I could have forgotten about him. Ivo Kovac

2 who was Mate Kovac's son. We used to work together for years. He worked

3 at the post office until the very last day. Dragica Tuskan, she must have

4 been born in 1963, 1964, 1965, and we were neighbours in the Katic Street,

5 and after 1970 we started working together at the Stjepan Supanc Company.

6 Q. Mr. Berghofer, I do apologise. You've already provided us with

7 the information about these people in answer to the OTP. Just so as not

8 to repeat everything, can you just tell me who was on the original list

9 and who wasn't, so as not to waste any time?

10 A. Mr. Vasic, that's what I'm telling you at the moment.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Moore.

12 MR. MOORE: May I just admit one small thing, because I'm well

13 aware of the difficulties that can develop with this list having dealt

14 with it.

15 For my part, it's often easier if one deals with the actual number

16 of the individual and for the question to be asked, Was he on the original

17 list or was he not. And if it's done systematically that way, I suspect

18 we'll get clearer answers, otherwise it will be very difficult to find

19 exactly what is what. I know it's slightly mundane, but I for my part

20 have found that to be the best part of dealing with the problem.

21 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sure Mr. Vasic will be grateful.

22 Could we just confirm, Mr. Berghofer, the names so far on the

23 list, were they all on your original list?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE PARKER: I think, Mr. Vasic, we may need to go back to the

Page 5393

1 beginning.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, unfortunately, Your Honour.

3 Thank you very much.

4 Q. So, Mr. Berghofer, in order to be even more expedient, we can do

5 it in the following way. I'll give you the numbers and the names and you

6 will then tell me whether that person was on the original list, yes or no.

7 Can you do it?

8 A. Just a correction, Mr. Vasic, what list do you have in mind? It

9 is not clear to me, what first list? Which one is it?

10 Q. That's the list you compiled in March 1992.

11 A. Oh, yes, I do understand. Okay. That's fine.

12 Q. Thank you. So number 1 on the list you compiled here in

13 The Hague, Dragan Gavric, was he on the original list?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Number 2, Sinisa Veber?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Number 3, a person called Vlaho?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Number 4, Goran Vidos?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Number 5, Pavlovic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Number 6, Sinisa Glavasevic?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Number 7, a person called Lili?

Page 5394

1 A. No.

2 Q. Number 8, a person called Jurela?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Number 9, Zvonko Iles?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Number 10, Branko Polomija?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Number 11, Kolak; and number 12, Kolak as well, the Kolak

9 brothers?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Number 13, Stjepan Herman, is that it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Number 14, Herman called Svabo?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Number 15, Ante Bodruzic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Number 16, Ivan Kovac?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Number 17, Dragica Tuskan?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Number 18, son Tuskan?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Number 19, Markobasic, Z?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Number 20, Baumgertner?

Page 5395

1 A. No.

2 Q. Number 21, Kuhar?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Number 22, Dado Djukic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Number 23, Nikica Holjevac?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Number 24, Damir Polhert?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Number 25, Zeljko Begov?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Number 26, Damjan Samardzic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Number 27, Gaspar?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Number 28 and number 29, Bosanac?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Number 30, Tomica Bajdrauh?

19 A. No, I didn't put his name down, but we grew up together, we went

20 to school together, so I didn't need to write his name down.

21 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you about these two names that

22 you've added here in the courtroom. They are not on this list. First of

23 all, Tomislav Pap?

24 A. Yes, he was on the list.

25 Q. And the secondly, Jovanovic. And the name I don't know --

Page 5396

1 A. Oliver.

2 Q. Oliver Jovanovic, was he on the list?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berghofer.

5 A. Then there was Pero Simonic from Dalmatinska Street. He wasn't on

6 the list originally because I couldn't remember his name at the time.

7 Q. And can you tell me, please, on the basis of the list that we have

8 on the screen here, can you tell me who of these people were members of

9 the defenders of Vukovar and the National Guard?

10 A. Gavric was a haulier, and as to whether he later on worked at the

11 hospital or not, I can't tell you, but I found him at the hospital.

12 Q. I'm only interested to find out who was in the guard or who were

13 the defenders.

14 A. Yes, I do understand. Do you know what I can tell you, Mr. Vasic,

15 the National Guards Corps was a formation, an armed uniformed formation.

16 Maybe you should have asked me whether anyone had any uniforms, because if

17 they had been members of the National Guards Corps, supposedly somebody

18 would have provided them with uniforms and weapons. I suppose that would

19 be a more logical way of putting the question.

20 Q. Mr. Berghofer, we have heard here that there are several

21 categories of defenders of Vukovar, some were within the National Guards

22 Corps, others were in other units of defence, and some were in the

23 204th Vukovar Brigade, et cetera. So what I'm asking you is: Do you know

24 whether any of these people actively participated in the armed conflict on

25 the Croatian side. Can we put it that way?

Page 5397

1 A. I'm not sure about Sinisa Veber on the first -- on the first part

2 of the list, no, perhaps the Kolak brothers, but I haven't seen them do

3 anything. I can't confirm that.

4 Q. If you don't know, just tell us you don't know.

5 A. I do not, Mr. Vasic. I do not know for the simple reason that I

6 never saw them on any positions. I never went to any positions.

7 Q. Okay. Thank you. Can you tell me whether you saw bandages on any

8 of these people or plaster-casts or anything of the sort.

9 A. I think that number 22, Dado Djukic, he had a wound on his leg and

10 he was walking on crutches.

11 Q. And you never saw any -- anything like that in any of the others?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you. I have only two questions left, and they have to do

14 with the time when you returned to Croatia from Mitrovica.

15 You were exchanged - isn't that right, Mr. Berghofer - in March

16 1992?

17 A. Yes, on the 27th.

18 Q. Do you know who you were exchanged with and who took you to this

19 exchange operation?

20 A. I do not know, Mr. Vasic.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berghofer. I'm only asking you to give me the

22 information that you do know. Thank you very much indeed for providing me

23 with the answers to my questions.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no more questions

25 left.

Page 5398

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Vasic.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

3 Mr. Borovic.

4 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Borovic:

6 Q. Good morning, I'm Borivoje Borovic, the Defence counsel for

7 Miroslav Radic.

8 A. Good morning, Mr. Borovic.

9 Q. The first question for the witness: Since you talked about the

10 ZNGs, and you gave us a somewhat detailed account of all that, what I'm

11 interested in is the automatic rifles they had that you've already told us

12 about. Where were they manufactured?

13 A. As far as I can remember, I never said anything about automatic

14 rifles. I finished my military service back in 1961, and I was an

15 artillery man.

16 Q. Just so as to -- not to waste any time, did you see any weapons in

17 the hands of ZNGs?

18 A. I didn't see the ZNGs.

19 Q. This is the first time you're telling us this.

20 A. Nobody has asked me about it before. Thank you.

21 Q. And who did you lead in the breakthrough out of Vukovar when you

22 were leading the column?

23 A. Everyone to the last man were civilians, and I told you there were

24 about 350 people. I couldn't remember the names of all of them, and I

25 didn't know where they had come from.

Page 5399

1 Q. Thank you. And why did the civilians go for the breakthrough?

2 Why didn't they go to the hospital, just as you did?

3 A. Many of these civilians, and I mean I -- it probably doesn't mean

4 anything to you because as civilians -- even as civilians they did not

5 survive.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, you're going to have to slow down a

7 little. The interpreter is already breathless. A pause between --

8 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. What was your participation in this war? Did you have any

12 military duties?

13 A. Never, Mr. Borovic. I never had any military duties.

14 Q. Thank you. And after the war, did you get any financial

15 compensation for the participation in war operations in Vukovar and did it

16 become a part of your pension plan or retirement?

17 A. Do you mean some kind of disability? Did I get some money?

18 Q. Did you -- did it count as your time in the army?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. And can you reveal the secret as to how come you were

21 considered to have participated in war and you have not participated in

22 any combat operations, as you've just told us?

23 A. Sir, Your Honours, do I need to answer this question?

24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, you do, I'm afraid. One significant question

25 is whether you were a member of the Croatian forces or assisted in the

Page 5400

1 defence of Vukovar. You've told us you were not, but you also tell us

2 that the time you spent there has counted towards your military service.

3 Those two appear inconsistent, so Mr. Borovic is asking you: Is there an

4 explanation for that?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay, Mr. Borovic, I'm going to try

6 and explain this to you. I've stressed that I wasn't a member of the

7 ZNGs, but we were recognised as defenders of Vukovar anyway and I'm proud

8 of that. And I stress that I was in charge of food supplies, logistics,

9 so that was my role.

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Thank you. Did you see any of the defenders of Vukovar, as you

12 call them, bearing arms?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. Where did you see them?

15 A. On occasion they would come to the headquarters. Sometimes they

16 would take the wounded away, sometimes they would come to my shop to visit

17 my wife.

18 Q. That's another question. Thank you. Where was that headquarters

19 that they visited and where you saw them?

20 A. That was the headquarters that we organised, and I've told this to

21 your colleague already, actually. We set it up in the Stjepan Radic

22 street where there was the so-called Hungarian school in the past. Now

23 it's the police station.

24 Q. Thank you. Did they come armed?

25 A. Yes, they did.

Page 5401

1 Q. Thank you. Could you be so kind as to tell us what sorts of

2 weapons they had at the time when you used to see them?

3 A. Russian automatic rifles.

4 Q. Thank you. Does this mean that the members of the armed

5 formations of Croatia had Russian automatic rifles? That was my first

6 question.

7 A. Yes, but back then we were not considered as the ZNGs.

8 Q. Thank you. And when did you start being considered as ZNGs?

9 A. We're now a Croatian state, acknowledged all our suffering after

10 gaining independence.

11 Q. Thank you. And in your opinion when did Croatia become

12 independent? In what year?

13 A. You know that Croatia was occupied?

14 Q. I'm asking you in what year did it gain independence.

15 A. I was still in Mitrovica, sir, at the time.

16 Q. Was it in 1992?

17 A. Yes, thereabouts. I do remember that all of our golden chains and

18 anything that we had in gold was taken away from us in Mitrovica.

19 Q. I don't know whether this entered the transcript. You said that

20 it was indeed in 1992?

21 A. More or less in the beginning of 1992.

22 Q. Thank you very much.

23 MR. MOORE: Well, I object to that. [Previous translation

24 continues] ... the first time. What this witness's perception is what is

25 independence or what is not is irrelevant to the issue. It may well

Page 5402

1 become a legal issue in any event, but it's -- the perception of a person

2 can often be different from the reality. That's irrelevant to issue --

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, the question is asked of an ordinary lay

4 witness. The ordinary lay witness has given an ordinary lay answer. It

5 is not going to determine the question of law for this Chamber, should it

6 become an issue in this trial.

7 MR. MOORE: Very well, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE PARKER: So you can relax.

9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Sir, notwithstanding whether Croatia was recognised or not, you

11 saw armed men. Apart from automatic rifles from Russia, did they have any

12 other weapons?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And they didn't even have uniforms?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And did they have uniforms at a later stage, because you've said

17 the ZNGs existed because you've already answered that question.

18 A. We have been recognised as being within the ZNGs.

19 Q. No, thank you. What I want to ask is whether at any point before

20 going to Mitrovica, did you see a live member of the ZNGs?

21 A. Maybe around the 15th of August, 1991, there were lots of soldiers

22 in Vukovar, and there was a lot of joy and there was shooting in the air.

23 There were pleased because they were leaving Vukovar. And I saw them in

24 front of my shop.

25 Q. But would you still answer my question, please.

Page 5403

1 A. That's when I saw them.

2 Q. The ZNGs?

3 A. Yes, they were wearing Croatian army uniforms. As to what

4 formation they belonged to, I have no idea.

5 Q. Thank you. That's the right answer to my question.

6 My question is the following: Could you describe the uniforms,

7 the Croatian uniforms, or, rather, the ZNG uniforms?

8 A. They were a kind of greenish colour. You know what colour it is.

9 Perhaps slightly lighter than the ones worn by Mr. Sljivancanin back then,

10 but I don't know really.

11 Q. Okay. What insignia did they have on their uniforms? Since you

12 were a member of the military, you must know.

13 A. I was not a member of the military, sir, and I didn't see what

14 sort of insignia they had.

15 Q. I do apologise. Since you had done your military service.

16 A. Yes, but I was familiar with the insignia of the former

17 Yugoslavia. I was familiar with that.

18 Q. Thank you. Who was the commander-in-chief of the Croatian forces

19 in Vukovar before you went to Mitrovica?

20 A. I'm not sure what day it was, but the fighting was well underway

21 already and the shelling was getting heavy. Mile Dedakovic was there.

22 Q. Does that mean that he was the commander-in-chief of the ZNG?

23 A. He was the commander of Vukovar's defence. I'm not sure if he was

24 ZNG or not.

25 Q. Thank you. Have you ever heard of Branko Borkovic?

Page 5404

1 A. Indeed I have, sir.

2 Q. What was he?

3 A. He was Dedakovic's deputy.

4 Q. Were these people previously military officers of the JNA, before

5 they became commanders of the Croatian forces?

6 A. I know now because I'm -- I saw this on TV later on, that they had

7 been in the JNA previously. But at the time I knew nothing about their

8 background.

9 Q. What exactly did you hear about them? Were they JNA officers?

10 Which ranks did they have?

11 A. I can't remember. Back in 1997 and 1998, there were things being

12 said on TV about them, but I can't remember specifically what.

13 Q. But they were officers, weren't they?

14 A. Yes, ranked officers.

15 Q. Why did members of the ZNG display so much joy and why was there

16 so much celebratory fire in August 1991?

17 A. It was one of those days. They were saying: There'll be a truce

18 soon, there'll be a truce, no more war. The children were back from their

19 summer holiday on the coast. I can't give you the exact date; don't hold

20 me to it. And they were on their way out of the Danube Hotel. There was

21 a lot of joy, and those uniformed young men were leaving Vukovar.

22 Q. You're talking about the ZNG men when you talk about young

23 uniformed men?

24 A. Yes, I'm talking about the Croatian army.

25 Q. Thank you. What on earth were they doing in the Danube Hotel in

Page 5405

1 August 1991? What was there? Why were they there in the first place?

2 A. Like I said, they probably heard that there would be no war; they

3 believed it. And they were on their way back to their homes.

4 Q. Do I understand you correctly that as early as August 1991 there

5 were well-established military units, armed, uniformed, that were referred

6 to as -- at the time, as the Croatian forces?

7 A. This was in late August, but don't hold me to it. They all wore

8 uniforms and they left Vukovar.

9 Q. Where did they go? Just a minute, please, sir.

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there's something that

11 we need to clear up. Page 21, line 19. I asked him about the Croatian

12 forces, and he said August, but apparently the witness also said July. So

13 the witness -- perhaps the witness can repeat this for us.

14 Q. The Croatian forces, when were they set up, which month?

15 A. I don't know when they were set up. All I know is I saw them

16 there.

17 Q. Was that July and August. Right?

18 A. Thereabouts. Maybe late July, early August. Thereabouts.

19 Q. Thank you. Since this question has now come along, what are armed

20 Croatian units doing at the Danube Hotel in late July and early August?

21 Were they perhaps stationed in that hotel? Was that a military facility,

22 therefore?

23 A. I really don't know about that.

24 Q. Thank you. But do you allow for the possibility that a military

25 unit was stationed there?

Page 5406

1 A. They were eating there, they were sleeping there.

2 Q. Your neighbours, the people you tell us about, were most of them

3 not people who fought alongside you in the defence of Vukovar? Were these

4 people who had all served their regular military terms with the JNA, just

5 like you?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Does that not mean that both you and they had at some point in the

8 JNA been trained to use weapons?

9 A. Yes, a long time ago, in the former Yugoslavia.

10 Q. A -- an ex-JNA officer was at the head of those armed units and

11 his deputy was also an ex-JNA officer. Do you agree that he would have

12 been in a position to exercise command over people who were, regardless of

13 their status, at some point trained to use weapons?

14 A. Yes, that at least is my reading.

15 Q. Did the Croatian forces have a prison? You said something about

16 that yesterday.

17 A. I don't remember speaking about that, or at least I don't know.

18 Q. I'll try not to confuse you, and I'll try not to ask too much.

19 You said yesterday: On our way we passed something that appeared

20 to be a prison. Didn't you?

21 A. Yes, but that was in the former Yugoslavia when bikes were stolen,

22 and this was some sort of a shed or a lost-and-found place where bikes

23 were brought back.

24 Q. What about the Croatian forces; more specifically, the ZNG forces

25 that you saw back in July, did they have a flag of their own?

Page 5407

1 A. I didn't see that. I only saw three or four cars drive by,

2 shooting in the air.

3 Q. You led about 300 or 350 people on the breakthrough. You said you

4 had an automatic rifle which you had previously traded or a gun. Is that

5 right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Therefore, you were heading a column comprising about 350 people?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How do you know whether the remaining people in that column were

10 armed or not, or perhaps you do not know?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. You also said that your group was preceded by another group?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How big was that group, in your opinion?

15 A. There were about 30 people in that group.

16 Q. And who put you in charge of leading that column of people on the

17 breakthrough from Vukovar?

18 A. Nobody put me in charge.

19 Q. Does that mean that you were self-appointed, in a way, and decided

20 off your own bat to lead that column?

21 A. Well, some people came over from the surrounding countryside.

22 There were lots of people there. It was a long column and somebody had to

23 do it.

24 Q. Thank you. Who organised for the people to assemble there or who

25 organised the meeting where it was decided that you would attempt the

Page 5408

1 breakthrough?

2 A. Josip Tomasic.

3 Q. Thank you. Did he have any military involvement in Vukovar?

4 A. He was a layman, like all of us, but he was much younger than I

5 was. He was half my age.

6 Q. But that's not what I asked. Did he have any military

7 involvement? The fact that he was half as old as you makes no difference

8 at all.

9 A. Like I said, he was not a professional. He just decided to join

10 us.

11 Q. Could you please be so kind and try to provide a more accurate

12 description, since I seem to understand that you know something about his

13 involvement.

14 A. This person lived at Lipovaca.

15 Q. And what was his involvement about?

16 A. The local Serbs at Lipovaca wanted to arrest him. It was for this

17 reason that he hid in the boot of a car, and I don't know who eventually

18 got him out of Vukovar or the other place, whatever its name was,

19 Lipovaca. It so happened that I never saw him or met him at all.

20 Q. Still, that is not an answer to my question. I understand the --

21 about him hiding in the boot, but what about his later involvement? What

22 exactly did he do?

23 A. As I told Mr. Vasic previously, he was the commander of Vuka 1,

24 Vuka 2, Vuka 3, which at one point became Osa 1, Osa 2, Osa 3.

25 Q. What are all these things, Vuka and Osa?

Page 5409

1 A. Some sort of check-points, I guess.

2 Q. Thank you. Where was Osa 1 check-point?

3 A. I drew it for you right there on that map yesterday.

4 Q. Just tell us.

5 A. The Slavija area.

6 Q. What about Osa 2?

7 A. Some place in Patkoviceva Street.

8 Q. What about Osa 3?

9 A. Some place between the Slavija area, Patkoviceva Street and the

10 Dalmatinska area. It was somewhere in that area, among the houses.

11 Q. Have you ever heard of the so-called Danube Platoon of the

12 Croatian forces stationed between the Eltz palace and the railway station?

13 Have you ever heard of that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you know who Ivica Vujkovic is?

16 A. I do know. He is five years younger than I, and we spent some

17 time together when we were still children.

18 Q. Was he the commander of one of the platoons there?

19 A. I don't know, sir.

20 Q. So you don't know for a fact that he was the commander of the

21 Danube Platoon?

22 A. No, I don't.

23 Q. Do you know -- well, since you claim to be familiar with the area,

24 you've moved around Vukovar quite a lot, that at the Danube Hotel there

25 were special forces from Bosanski Brod and from Opatovac?

Page 5410

1 A. I didn't know about that, sir.

2 Q. What about the ZNG members who were firing in the air in late July

3 and early August outside the Danube Hotel? Who did they belong to?

4 Perhaps they were the very people I'm talking about.

5 A. I can't say.

6 Q. Were those people you recognised as locals or were they outsiders,

7 someone who came from far away?

8 A. If those people had been people from Vukovar, I would have told

9 you so immediately.

10 Q. Did you at one point in time all receive yellow Borovo boots, or

11 rather, the factory's name was Polo? This was something that was produced

12 for the American market. If so, at which point in time exactly?

13 A. No, we were not given those, but I know that a handful of people

14 did have those, about five people, I think.

15 Q. Thank you. Did you at any point in time hear anything about the

16 ZNG members all wearing the same kind of boots and they signed for these

17 as early as February 1991?

18 A. No, I never heard that.

19 Q. Do you know where the Opatovac farm is?

20 A. I have a very foggy idea. I drove through Opatovaci on my way to

21 Novi Sad a hundred times or more.

22 Q. Have you ever heard of a person by the name of Ante Roso?

23 A. No, not as far as I remember. The name's not familiar.

24 Q. In your previous statements to the OTP and your testimony at the

25 Belgrade Ovcara trial, you mentioned this so I must ask you about it.

Page 5411

1 Before you went to Sremska Mitrovica, did you know the most important

2 positions held by the ZNG inside Vukovar itself?

3 A. No, I had no idea.

4 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance

5 now. I would like to show the witness these statements.

6 Q. Sir, I've highlighted everything for you. The 26th of October,

7 2004, please, if you can find the 26th of October. Perhaps the best thing

8 is to go straight to page 6. Page 6.

9 A. I have it.

10 Q. In English this is page 6, line 38. I'm not sure if you've got

11 the right page, but can you please just read this aloud, the question by

12 Attorney Perkovic, and then on from there, please.

13 A. The next question, you mean?

14 Q. I think so.

15 A. The next question is: Question --

16 Q. Just a minute, please. Slowly. Go ahead, please.

17 A. The next question is: "I fail to understand the witness. Was he

18 a member of the 204th Brigade or not?"

19 Q. Everything that I've highlighted in yellow, please, read it out.

20 A. Well, you see, the 204th Brigade.

21 Q. My apologies. Could you please just also specify who is asking

22 the question and who is providing the answer. There is the attorney and

23 there is the witness. And you are the witness, right?

24 A. Yes. But you didn't ask that of me originally, and I can now go

25 back and read everything that I've read already.

Page 5412

1 Q. Please do so.

2 A. Attorney Miroslav Perkovic: "My next question. I fail to

3 understand the witness. Was he a member of the 2004th [as interpreted]

4 Brigade or not?"

5 Q. So what is the witness's answer?

6 A. Answer -- well, it continues here. Witness Victim Dragutin

7 Berghofer: "Yes, I was a member."

8 Attorney Perkovic: "Was Mr. Cakalic also a member of that

9 brigade?"

10 Witness Victim Dragutin Berghofer: "Well, you see, the

11 204th Brigade was holding Mitnica, Sajmiste, the hospital, Borovo,

12 Priljevo, you see -- you see what I'm saying. All of us suddenly became

13 the 204th Brigade. Okay. But that was after the war, the 204th Brigade,

14 that was -- that it was recognised" --

15 Q. Excuse me, it doesn't say "recognised."

16 A. "And when? Okay. It was after the war. There you go, the 204th,

17 they called it the 204th."

18 Q. It says "they called it or recognised" -- it doesn't

19 say "recognised it."

20 A. They say they called it -- it says they called it the 204th

21 Brigade. Is that all right now?

22 Q. It's all right now.

23 A. "The 204th Vinkovci, and, well, there you go, Vukovarska 2, it was

24 in fact -- but, it was the 2nd Company of the 1st Battalion. This --

25 that -- but Vukovar had not fallen yet. Let's say this was sometime in

Page 5413

1 mid-October."

2 Q. Thank you. Mr. Berghofer, the question by the attorney is stated

3 here. You answered you were a member of the 204th Brigade. You only

4 found out it was called that after the war, just to be completely fair to

5 you --

6 MR. MOORE: I object to the way this question is being put because

7 it is misrepresenting what this witness is saying and his participation.

8 My learned friend is slanting the question to suggest that he's involved

9 in some military way. My learned friend is perfectly aware, that is the

10 page that refers to the purchase of an airplane, and also the answer

11 before he asks the question is reference to this witness being involved in

12 a soup kitchen and feeding civilians, too. If he's going to try and read

13 out a part to demonstrate military activity, he's got to read out the

14 answers in toto to give the court a fair -- or to give the Court a proper

15 context of what's being said. It's not a case for re-examination.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Berghofer, in these proceedings in 2004, you

17 appear at one point to have accepted that you were a member of the

18 204th Brigade. Is that correct?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I accepted him now.

20 JUDGE PARKER: When did you become a member of the 204th Brigade?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At some point after the 15th of

22 September, 1991, and as far as I know, Your Honour, it didn't bear that

23 name back then. I wasn't aware of it. It was much later that they said

24 it was called the 204th Brigade.

25 JUDGE PARKER: What was it that you became aware of that you

Page 5414

1 became a member of? You said you didn't know it was the 204th Brigade but

2 you became a member of something sometime after September. What did you

3 become a member of?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Zlatko Menges came along from

5 [as interpreted] Mile Dedakovic, as far as I can remember, Your Honour,

6 and he said: Guys, we're the 2nd Company of the 1st Battalion. Something

7 like that.

8 JUDGE PARKER: And was that of the ZNG?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Had we been the ZNGs,

10 presumably we would have been assisted. We would have received some kind

11 of help.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Well, can you tell us what the 2nd Company of the

13 1st Battalion was?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was this group of people. There

15 were some 70 or 80 of us, and we were manning Osa 1, 2, and 3.

16 JUDGE PARKER: And you were a member of that group of 70 or 80

17 people, were you?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was a cook and a warehouse

19 keeper and I did a bit of logistics.

20 JUDGE PARKER: And that was a group that was occupying three

21 positions, Osa 1, 2, and 3. Is that correct?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is.

23 JUDGE PARKER: And that was sometime after late September of 1991.

24 Is that correct?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe it was

Page 5415

1 perhaps already the beginning of October, thereabouts.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And what -- when did you first join

3 that group of people, that 70 or 80 people?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I had joined the others even

5 earlier because I had no possibility of going anywhere or anything, but I

6 was still guarding my shop. And on a daily basis we were still being told

7 that there would be a truce, that there would be no war, and the radio and

8 the TV or telling us that there will be no war, and so on. And had I

9 known that there would be war, I would never ever have stayed.

10 JUDGE PARKER: And when did you first join this group of 70 or 80

11 people? Can you remember that?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At some point in September, the

13 beginning of September maybe.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Now, your role in this group, you said you were

15 doing some cooking and looking after supplies and some logistics. Is that

16 right?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

18 JUDGE PARKER: What were other members of the group doing, the

19 other people, this 70 or 80?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One drove a van. And -- you mean

21 the 70 people there? Oh, yeah, they were up there at the Bojnice line, at

22 Osa 1, 2, 3. It was the front line basically.

23 JUDGE PARKER: So they were manning positions, were they?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

25 JUDGE PARKER: And can you tell us whether they had weapons?

Page 5416

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some of them had automatic rifles,

2 and some of them had hunting rifles.

3 JUDGE PARKER: And I gather from what you've said, none of them

4 had uniforms. Is that correct?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

6 JUDGE PARKER: And did you continue to help as a member of this

7 group until the 17th of November?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, that may have cleared a few things up.

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would

11 like to ask you to put the evidence number 156 on the screen.

12 Q. You have to look at the screen.

13 A. Yes, yes. I do understand.

14 Q. Wait for it to appear.

15 A. Mr. Borovic, you know what I'm looking for. I don't see that it's

16 the same document as the one in Belgrade, because there's no reference to

17 the operation where I bought an ox, and you say that we bought a plane and

18 it was an ox. I mean, this is a necessary correction.

19 Q. We did not talk about any planes. I am entitled to select the

20 part of the transcript that I prefer, and if my learned friend wants to

21 ask you about oxen and about planes, that's his problem, and it's not up

22 to me.

23 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] So could we please see Exhibit 156.

24 We can see it now. Could you please blow up the middle of the picture a

25 little bit. A little bit more, please. Still more. Thank you.

Page 5417

1 Q. Since you've just confirmed, Mr. Berghofer, that you made a

2 statement and you have the transcripts in front of you and you've read out

3 the contents of your statement, I'm not going to start talking about your

4 role, whether you were a member of the ZNG or another formation. But you,

5 as a witness, made the following statement: "This Brigade, 204th, took

6 Mitnica, Sajmiste, Bojnice, Priljevo, Borovo," and so on and so forth.

7 Now, perhaps with the assistance of the usher you could mark these

8 areas that you referred to on the map. Could you show us what area

9 exactly was taken by the members of the 204th Brigade in the way in which

10 you told us in the course of your testimony, Mitica [phoen].

11 A. You'll have to help me out. This arrow, as far as I can see,

12 indicates the barracks. Is that right?

13 Q. Yes. There is the barracks, the hospital, Nova Ulica, and

14 Velepromet.

15 A. You have to lead me through that. What do you want me to do? To

16 indicate where -- members or what?

17 Q. Just a moment. Since I'm not a member of the OTP, I'm not going

18 to lead you. I'm not going to tell you what to show me. But I'm asking

19 you: Since you had been in the army, you did your military service, you

20 are familiar with the streets of Vukovar, could you just indicate by a

21 line the area taken by the Croatian forces.

22 A. I don't know those lines. I know my zone and Slavija, where our

23 lads were.

24 Q. Just hang on a second. So you're not in a position to indicate

25 what you've told us about as a witness in your witness statement, where

Page 5418

1 exactly positions of the Croatian forces were when they took Mitica,

2 Sajmiste, Bojnice, Borovo, and so on?

3 A. How can I do that? I wasn't there.

4 Q. Okay. That's fine. Thank you.

5 The next question. Yesterday you mentioned the cellars - and do

6 correct me if I'm wrong - but I believe you said that there were cellars,

7 and then there were hills behind those cellars up to the height of

8 20 metres. Does it mean that those cellars were 20 metres below the

9 ground?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. There was some shelters in those cellars. Is that

12 right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. Was it possible for 2 or 300 people to fit into any of

15 those shelters?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. And was there a single shelter that could hold up to a

18 thousand people?

19 A. I'm not aware of that.

20 Q. Thank you. Did you hear about nuclear shelters and did you know

21 where they were?

22 A. I heard of them, but it was somewhere in Olajnica, as we used to

23 call that part of town.

24 Q. Thank you. Did you hear about them existing at the hospital and

25 Borovo Komerc?

Page 5419

1 A. I don't know about that, but about some kind of Komerc, Borovo or

2 something, but it was called "Komerc," that was all.

3 Q. Thank you. And Vupik cellars, did they have any shelters that you

4 knew of?

5 A. I had never been there, but even when I was a child I knew that

6 those cellars were huge. Those were wine cellars, and I had heard of

7 them.

8 Q. Thank you. What you read out earlier and what you heard about but

9 you're unable to indicate on the map, well, in relation to that, my

10 question is the following: Does this mean that if the 204th Brigade took

11 Vitica [as interpreted], Sajmiste, the hospital, Borovo, Priljevo, does

12 this mean that they had that part of town in their hands?

13 A. I don't really understand your question. But Borovo, for example,

14 would be used in order to prevent them from crossing the Danube.

15 Q. Thank you. And what about Vitica?

16 A. For them not to come from the area of Sotin.

17 Q. Thank you. Does this mean nobody was allowed to move freely,

18 there were military front lines there?

19 A. Well, that I can't tell you.

20 Q. Thank you. And what about Priljevo?

21 A. Well, Priljevo was free. I only had heard about Borovo, but I

22 didn't hear anything about Priljevo.

23 Q. What do you mean?

24 A. You could walk freely. As far as I know, nobody was there, ever.

25 Q. But earlier on when you read out your witness statement, you

Page 5420

1 confirmed that the 204th ZNG Brigade had taken the entire area, and you

2 mentioned them taking Priljevo?

3 A. Priljevo is a part of Borovo as well, that is together, after

4 Novi Most, after the new bridge.

5 Q. That's fine. Thank you. When you said they took these areas, the

6 ones that we've just listed, does this mean -- I mean, I'm not going to

7 repeat all these names. What does this mean?

8 A. It was your language "they took." All I said was that they were

9 there.

10 Q. That's what you said, actually. You said that they had taken all

11 these areas.

12 A. Well, if you must insist on that word, it's the same meaning,

13 either they were there or they took it. It doesn't really matter.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you. You also said to us that you heard over the

15 loud-speaker that people were to go to the hospital. Is that right? You

16 said that you heard that being said over the loud-speakers?

17 A. I did not say that.

18 Q. Okay. We'll come back to that later.

19 Okay. Let's move on. In answer to the question by my colleague

20 Mr. Vasic as to whether Vesna Bosanac was ordering soldiers who had come

21 to the hospital to discard their weapons and to change into civilian

22 clothes, whether they were the ZNGs, you only gave a partial answer. Just

23 as -- just in order to avoid any misunderstandings, can you please read

24 the transcript from the Belgrade trial dated the 25th of October, 2004,

25 page 68, and in the English version, page 64, lines between 9 and 10. It

Page 5421

1 starts with the word "look." Could you please read it out to us.

2 Page 68.

3 A. Can I start?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. In the right corner there is a reference to Vesna Bosanac. And

6 then the witness Dragutin Berghofer: "Look, in those days we were running

7 around, and then she said: There were -- yes. She said: There were lads

8 who had uniforms, and I had an automatic rifle as well. And he says:

9 Drop it" -- well, there seems to be something wrong with the text, but

10 whatever, we'll try to make it sound okay.

11 I can perhaps tell you from my memory. Apparently it says: "Drop

12 your weapons and get changed. And I didn't have a uniform but I think" --

13 it says "October."

14 "But I October -- it wasn't my" -- I don't know. There is a

15 piece of the text missing. I don't know.

16 Q. Could you please stop?

17 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can see that the

18 translation is very disorderly, and I am trying to read it now. And if

19 I'm wrong, then the witness can perhaps tell me. So it is about the

20 answer to the question as to whether Vesna Bosanac made a suggestion that

21 they should change into civilian clothes, et cetera.

22 Q. Okay. The witness said the following: "Look, we were just

23 sitting around there for those two days, and then she said: There were

24 lads in uniforms, and I myself had an automatic rifle, and then we said:

25 Leave that, get changed, drop your weapons, and get changed. And I didn't

Page 5422

1 have a uniform, and I don't think" - and it says "October," but it

2 probably means automatic rifle - "was not mine, I don't know who I got it

3 from, and I left it at the hospital next to a shed under a car, and as far

4 as I know, it was not even in a working order."

5 Is that right? Did I read it right properly?

6 A. Yes, you did, but some things are missing.

7 Q. Whatever is missing, can you tell us about it?

8 A. Yes. Quite simply, I came back --

9 Q. No. What I'm asking you about is it correct that you made this

10 statement at the Belgrade trial at the Ovcara?

11 A. I know better what I said than you do, and I just wanted to

12 complement this missing part of the text.

13 Q. Please, go ahead.

14 A. I got the automatic rifle. Just before we entered the woods, I

15 exchanged it for a gun, and I didn't go for the breakthrough, and I came

16 back to the hospital. There's five and six of us, and I've said it

17 before. And then I hid the automatic rifle straight away next to the

18 shed.

19 Q. I do apologise. Does that mean that you came to the hospital

20 carrying on automatic rifle?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Why did you hide the automatic rifle near the shed?

23 A. I hadn't had it for three and a half months and now I was back in

24 town and what use did I have for it?

25 Q. So why did you take it all the way back from the woods to the

Page 5423

1 hospital if you had no use for it?

2 A. You don't think I would have discarded it just because of those

3 600 metres there, right? I just hid it under a burnt-out car next to a

4 shed.

5 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honours, but I

6 believe this is time for the break.

7 JUDGE PARKER: You seem to be at a point where it was not

8 practical to stop you, but clearly now we've reached that point.

9 We must now adjourn for a time to allow the tapes to be rewound

10 and to give the witness a little break.

11 We will resume at five minutes to 11.00.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Q. Mr. Berghofer, when you were in the hospital on the 19th of

17 November, I think you said that you saw Kuzmic there, right, with two

18 young soldiers?

19 A. Yes, roughly speaking.

20 Q. Can you describe what Kuzmic was wearing?

21 A. He was wearing a JNA uniform.

22 Q. Was there a rank displayed on the uniform?

23 A. I don't know. I got a sideways look of him and I didn't see the

24 rank. But let me tell you straight off, I didn't see a single rank

25 anywhere that I can remember on any of those men.

Page 5424

1 Q. You've testified yesterday that there was a combat vehicle at the

2 head of the column, which you referred to as a Campagnola. To be

3 perfectly precise, this was on page 5287, lines 8 through 13. Is that

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. We heard that you did your regular military term with the JNA?

7 A. Yes, that's true.

8 Q. There are two different sorts of combat vehicles. One is a tank

9 with a caterpillar, and the other is a transport vehicle with regular

10 tires, right?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have the following

13 document displayed on the screen, please. This is document 0467-5486.

14 Can we please zoom in a little? If we can't, that's all right.

15 Q. We mentioned one combat vehicle as being a tank with a

16 caterpillar, and the other was a transport vehicle. Was it this sort of

17 vehicle?

18 A. No.

19 Q. There is a transcript from the Ovcara case, you should have it in

20 front of you. Could you please go to the 25th of October, 2004. The

21 B/C/S reference is page 72. And for the benefit of my learned friend

22 Mr. Moore, the English reference is page 67, line 26. You can follow and

23 I will read. I can see that you're having a hard time reading, right?

24 A. It's not that I was having a hard time, but it wasn't consistent

25 what I was looking at. But you can just go ahead and read.

Page 5425

1 Q. You follow what I'm saying, and if I make any mistakes please say

2 so. So I'm reading the relevant portion from page 72 of the transcript.

3 Attorney Todorovic's question: "Were they going in a column?"

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Please don't answer, just listen.

6 The witness's answer:" Yes. "

7 Counsel Todorovic: "Were these being secured by military

8 vehicles?"

9 "Answer: "They were just there, they were on the bus, a young

10 soldier was."

11 Counsel Todorovic: "My question is: Was the column being

12 secured?"

13 Answer: "No. And since I was on the fourth bus, I didn't see

14 ahead of us or what was going on behind us. But there was a young soldier

15 on the bus."

16 Is this true what you stated at the Belgrade trial?

17 A. Yes, that's accurate.

18 Q. Thank you. My next question: Is it true you were on the fourth

19 bus?

20 A. The way I remember it, yes, I was.

21 Q. And when the column was on its way, you couldn't see what was

22 ahead of you at the head of the column, right?

23 A. It's only when there was a bend in the road that I was able to see

24 a military Campagnola vehicle.

25 Q. Yesterday you said: "A combat vehicle that I call Campagnola."

Page 5426

1 A. Military vehicle, military vehicle. Because Campagnola is a

2 military vehicle and not a combat vehicle.

3 Q. But now you've just confirmed this. Counsel Todorovic asked you a

4 crystal clear question and your answer was that nobody was providing

5 security for this column, nor, you say, were you able to see any bends.

6 If I tell you that yesterday was your first reference ever to this

7 Campagnola and you have provided a large number of different statements,

8 did perhaps someone talk you into mentioning this Campagnola vehicle right

9 here, right now, for the first time? If so, who was it?

10 A. I didn't just make it up, but I don't know where you get this

11 information from, that I never referred to it. But at the Belgrade

12 trial -- I'm not really that clever. I can't keep so many different

13 things in my head all at once. Just like now, there was a military

14 Campagnola leading the column, and I saw this for a fraction of a moment

15 when there was this bend in the road.

16 Q. As I said, sir, you never mentioned this before. And there was

17 testimony from a witness, and it was only after this testimony that you

18 could possibly have learned about this. I'm positive that there was

19 somebody who talked you into mentioning this Campagnola which you have

20 never mentioned before?

21 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry. I object to that question. I find it

22 offensive. If it's trying to be suggested it's OTP, which it tends to be

23 with my learned friend Mr. Borovic, that has not been the case whatsoever.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, you may, if you think it is justified,

25 put to a witness that their evidence is something that has not been

Page 5427

1 previously spoken about or written about by that witness in previous

2 evidence or in testimony. You may then wish to explore how it is that the

3 witness now thinks of something that has not previously been mentioned.

4 But to frame your question as this is framed carries a very clear

5 indication that you are suggesting that there has been positive

6 intervention to persuade this witness to mention a particular topic, and

7 as Mr. Moore has indicated, the clear implication is who did that.

8 Now, that is a very serious suggestion. If you have reason to

9 support that, fine; but I think you may not have intended what is the

10 effect of what you have said. And if that's the case, I would suggest

11 that you should be very careful how you frame this sort of question in

12 future because it creates an unnecessary and an undesirable impression.

13 Now, I've been very muted and limited in what I've said, but

14 please don't take that as being that I don't regard this as a serious

15 matter.

16 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, needless to say, I take

17 everything you say as a serious matter and I accept all of your

18 instructions. But if the other party sometimes refers to their own native

19 legal system, then I have to refer to the legal system of the country that

20 I come from, and that is encouraging the witness to give false testimony.

21 There had been many border-line cases, so to speak, so far of

22 this, at least in my definition of the term. But here we have a fact

23 that's mentioned right here, right now for the very first time. I've told

24 the witness so, and I've shown the witness his testimony from the Belgrade

25 case where he said something totally different.

Page 5428

1 I will now stop, and I will try to be more reserved with future

2 witnesses, but it was high time I told a witness here before this Chamber

3 that he should not start coming up with facts which he had never mentioned

4 in any of his previous statements now of all places.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, that is wrong. Let me make it very

6 clear: Witnesses do remember things that they have not previously

7 remembered, especially when they are asked about details that previous

8 questioners and previous investigators have not inquired about. So just

9 because a witness's evidence differs from something said before does not

10 mean that this witness is manufacturing new evidence. Let that be first

11 said.

12 Where something new emerges in evidence, it may be that the

13 witness is creating evidence. That is a matter which you may properly

14 explore and which this Chamber is aware of and will be conscious of. But

15 just because it happens that there is something you mentioned does not

16 mean that the witness is creating evidence, manufacturing evidence. It's

17 a perfectly normal, human occurrence. So don't firstly jump to the

18 conclusion that it's false and it's about time you did something about it.

19 The second thing is that you may properly explore with the witness

20 why for the first time now the witness mentions something that has not

21 been previously mentioned. But when you do that, unless you have some

22 very specific basis, please avoid the trap of jumping to the conclusion

23 that somebody has improperly persuaded the witness to do that. It may be

24 very much the witness's own memory which, rightly or wrongly, has thought

25 of something.

Page 5429

1 Now, it's not a matter of different legal systems; it's a matter

2 of ordinary human experience. Now, please understand that if you want to

3 explore with this witness why it is that his evidence is different now

4 from anything previously said, you may do it. But you don't do it by

5 suggesting some improper conduct by other people, unless you have some

6 sound basis for that.

7 I hope it is now clear.

8 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] As I said, I will comply with all

9 your instructions. Even if I were not willing to, obviously I would still

10 have to comply. There are mechanisms in place to ensure that.

11 We broached the question of not granting a certain witness

12 protective measures, if you remember. I believe that has something to do

13 with this particular testimony. When that happens, the Trial Chamber will

14 see for itself that this person told enormous lies about things that have

15 been the matter of evidence before this Court. I will, however, now stop

16 and proceed to --

17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, you are bordering now on extremely

18 improper conduct. May I suggest for your own sake that you stop making

19 that sort of assertion at this point in these proceedings. And if you

20 return to questioning this witness about his evidence.

21 Thank you.

22 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. You are

23 very kind.

24 Q. My next question: When you came to The Hague to testify for the

25 first time, who did you go with?

Page 5430

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 It had been a long time. And if memory serves me, with Dr. Vesna Bosanac

4 and another lady doctor who was a dentist.

5 Q. Thank you. Were you all together in Zagreb before you left?

6 A. No, we were not all together.

7 Q. Thank you. Did anyone from the defence ministry prepare you for

8 your testimony?

9 A. No, not that I know of, not over the last 15 years.

10 Q. You said in reference to one of the persons you identified from

11 the list, Ivan Kovac, that he worked with the post office to the very last

12 day, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was he a member of the ZNG?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Thank you. Were the phone lines in good working order all the way

17 until the 17th of November, 1991?

18 A. The phone lines at the time in Vukovar had long been down, as far

19 as I knew.

20 Q. Does that mean that Ivan Kovac could not possibly have gone about

21 his regular job? And what was it that he was doing to the very last day

22 there if the phone lines were down?

23 A. I don't know. The phone lines in the town of Vukovar itself were

24 down, but I don't know about the technology being used now or what he was

25 doing. He wasn't the one who told me. It was his dad who told me after

Page 5431

1 the liberation.

2 Q. Very well. This person you identified as Kuhar; I think that's

3 number 21, isn't it? My question in relation to this person is: Is this

4 person still alive, or is this person listed as missing?

5 A. This person is no longer alive. He was with me at Ovcara. He was

6 a young man from Nasice or somewhere near Nasice. He had no parents; he

7 was an orphan. And I wanted to give him a proper burial. I remember him

8 because his shoe size was 48. He came to my warehouse to get a pair of

9 shoes and I couldn't provide one, and that's why I remember. He was an

10 orphan. He didn't have a mother or a father, but he has a brother who

11 still receives financial compensation from the Croatian state because his

12 brother is still listed as missing and has never been found. This is what

13 some of my friends from Nasice told me.

14 Q. Thank you. Does that mean he's still listed as missing and his

15 brother is receiving his pension, right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Something you said about the list yesterday, you said you wrote

18 down the names that you did. And after that you said: Additionally, I

19 remember two other names that I shared with Their Honours. And probably

20 you meant the Prosecutor, right?

21 A. Yes, that's what I said.

22 Q. But after that you said: Additionally, I told him about those two

23 names.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you very much. After you compiled the list, you never

Page 5432

1 talked to anyone else again until you appeared in this courtroom, right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. My last question. My question is: Did you hear that in the

4 Croatian defence ministry there is a special unit preparing witnesses to

5 testify here in The Hague? Have you ever heard of the existence of such a

6 unit?

7 A. No. I was never prepared by anyone for my testimony.

8 MR. BOROVIC: [No interpretation].

9 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone wasn't on.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

11 Mr. Lukic.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

13 morning to everyone.

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Berghofer.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. I'm Novak Lukic, and on behalf of the Defence team for Veselin

18 Sljivancanin, I'm going to ask you a few questions.

19 I didn't want to interfere with my colleague Borovic's

20 cross-examination, but I believe that on page 46, lines 5 and 6 need to be

21 corrected. If you want an explanation of this, we should move into

22 private session.

23 A. Are you asking me about this?

24 Q. No.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Leave it until after your cross-examination,

Page 5433

1 Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Berghofer, you listened to questions put to

4 you by my colleagues, and we would like to make this cross-examination as

5 expeditious as possible, and we decided to divide the topics amongst

6 ourselves. So I'm going to refer to topics that Mr. Vasic didn't ask you

7 about, the barracks and the hospital, on the 18th and the 20th November.

8 And I'll ask you a couple of questions about Velepromet and the barracks

9 after you returned from Ovcara.

10 Let me just remind you once again of the fact that it would be a

11 good idea to allow for a short pause after my question, a couple of

12 seconds, because otherwise it's very difficult for the interpreters to

13 follow if we both speak at the same time, and in that case the transcript

14 is no good either.

15 First of all, I will ask you a couple of questions about my own

16 custom before I move on to talk about the hospital, a general question

17 that I normally put to all witnesses. You gave evidence, as you yourself

18 have said, to -- on a number of occasions before various trials and

19 courts, et cetera. And I believe that everything you said tallies on one

20 point, that is to say, that after the conversation between Sljivancanin

21 and Dr. Ivankovic that you've described to us, that is to say, after you

22 were boarded on to buses at the hospital on the 20th of November, after

23 that you have never ever seen my client again. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Just to specify it once again. At Ovcara barracks, at Modateks,

Page 5434

1 at Velepromet, and then again at the barracks, and at Sremska Mitrovica,

2 you have never seen Mr. Sljivancanin in any of those places. Is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I'm going to put to you another question relating to the period

6 prior to your arrival at the hospital, something that came to me when you

7 were answering questions by my colleague Mr. Vasic yesterday. You said

8 that you were familiar with the combat operations in the area of Sajmiste.

9 I'm going to ask you about a short episode there, if you remember that.

10 Maybe you could describe it. If you don't remember, we can move on.

11 What I'm referring to is the following: Do you have any

12 recollection at all of the attempt of an arrival of a convoy of doctors on

13 the 13th of October when from the direction of Negoslavci they were trying

14 to reach the hospital in order to bring medical supplies and take over

15 patients and near Sajmiste they were stopped by the Croat defence lines.

16 And that is to say, Mr. Borkovic, a member of the Jastrebs, prevented the

17 convoy from getting through because he was afraid that the JNA tanks might

18 follow in their wake. Do you remember anything at all in conjunction with

19 this?

20 A. I have no recollection of anything like that at all.

21 Q. And can you confirm that the route from Sajmiste to the centre of

22 town was mined and that there were obstacles and barricades in the street

23 and they were mined as well? Do you know anything about that?

24 A. I told you that I left Sajmiste either on the 24th or on the 25th

25 of August, and I never went back until seven years later. I'm not aware

Page 5435

1 of that.

2 Q. The shelter where you were which you described to Vasic yesterday,

3 how far is it from the hospital, in your estimation?

4 A. Perhaps 8 to 900 metres, four bus-stops, roughly speaking.

5 Maybe -- I'm talking about ten cellars there.

6 Q. You've already told me that you left Sajmiste as early as August,

7 so presumably you will be unable to answer the following question but I

8 will put it to you anyway, as it is my duty.

9 Do you know anything about the events in the beginning of October

10 when a combat vehicle was attacked, when five soldiers were kidnapped, and

11 they were buried near Radnicko Naselje and the others who survived had

12 been taken to hospital? Do you know anything about that?

13 A. I do not.

14 Q. Now we can move to the events at the hospital starting from the

15 moment when you got there. As you told us, you arrived at the hospital

16 around midnight on the 17th of November. Is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. After you decided you would not go for the breakthrough, do you go

19 to the hospital straight away or did you spend time in town?

20 A. There's no town. It's the cemetery, the Sloga football stadium,

21 and then the hospital. I went straight to the hospital.

22 Q. And the entire group, everybody who was with you?

23 A. Yes. I think there were six of us in all -- or maybe five, six,

24 seven -- six probably.

25 Q. We don't need to go into any great detail, but let me just remind

Page 5436

1 you that you initially said there were eight of you in a statement you

2 gave to the OTP. Maybe it's a mistake?

3 A. I can easily give you the names of the people even now.

4 Q. You've already told us; no need.

5 A. Yes, okay.

6 Q. Did the other members of the group carry arms as well?

7 A. No. The people who were with me did not have any weapons. I was

8 the only one who had an automatic rifle.

9 Q. De facto you mentioned the names of several doctors as well?

10 A. One doctor and his wife, Marko Mandic, who was the plaster

11 technician, and I think his wife as well. As far as I can remember, it

12 was his wife and myself, and Njofra Jankovic who was Gretel's son-in-law.

13 Q. We had evidence before this Court according to which the plaster

14 technician, Marko Mandic, was putting plaster-casts on the legs of

15 soldiers or people who engaged in combat operations in order to feign

16 injuries. Do you know anything about that?

17 A. Sir, I know Manko [as interpreted] Mandic by sight, but I have no

18 idea what you're talking about.

19 Q. Sir, it is my duty to put the question to you. So you see how

20 much time is needed in order for what we are saying to appear on the

21 transcript.

22 Just tell me in a few words - you don't have to explain everything

23 in any great detail - but starting from the time when you arrived there on

24 the 17th you said that you must have spent time in the basement until you

25 went to Dr. Ivankovic's office. Did you move about in the course of those

Page 5437

1 two days? Did you walk around the corridors, et cetera?

2 A. Yes, I was carrying water.

3 Q. We heard that civilians who started arriving at the hospital in

4 large numbers mostly went to the upper floors. Is that so?

5 A. The whole hospital was packed.

6 Q. Did you see Mrs. Vesna Bosanac at the hospital?

7 A. It was very difficult to get to see her, but I did see her between

8 the 17th and the 18th, thereabouts. I can't tell you exactly at what

9 time, but I did see her, only once there.

10 Q. Did she herself or anyone else tell you that Vesna Bosanac was

11 against the civilians getting to the hospital? She was of the view that

12 they should go to the collection centre at Velepromet. Did you hear

13 anything about that?

14 A. I do not know, sir.

15 Q. Are you aware of the fact that in the course of those few days

16 lists of civilians had been compiled by Ljerka Zgonjanin from the

17 Red Cross and Marin Vidic [as interpreted] from the Red Cross as well?

18 A. Yes, I do know that and Dragica Tuskan as well. My name was taken

19 down three times by Ljerka Zgonjanin. She's from Patkovici, but she was a

20 self-proclaimed Red Cross employee. There was nothing really official

21 there.

22 Q. Okay. Did Dr. Ivankovic, in the course of your conversation

23 perhaps, tell you that civilians should move to Velepromet?

24 A. We did not discuss that.

25 Q. Did Dr. Ivankovic perhaps mention that the ZNG and the defenders

Page 5438

1 troops were putting on white coats or putting on plaster-casts or anything

2 like that?

3 A. No, Mr. Lukic.

4 Q. Fine. Now we shall move on to my client's conversation with

5 Dr. Ivankovic -- or rather, a monologue, as you said, on the morning of

6 the 20th, as far as I understood it, around 7.00?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. I'm not trying to put any leading questions to you. What time was

9 it?

10 A. Perhaps 7.30. Okay, let's say it was 7.30. It was in the morning

11 anyway.

12 Q. Fine. Tell me where you were prior to witnessing their meeting?

13 A. There was no meeting. I was being escorted by Ivankovic, and we

14 were shaking hands. And at that juncture he came along from somewhere and

15 he shouted: Doctor, what are we waiting for? I've already said this in

16 my statement.

17 Q. That was my understanding of the situation. But what I'm

18 particularly interested in - and this is something that you said to my

19 colleague from the Prosecution as well - is that you were greeting

20 Ivankovic at that stage. Why?

21 A. Because it was high time for me to get out of the hospital to see

22 what was going on, because there were had been vehicles coming and going

23 throughout the night so we were saying good-bye. And I suppose that I,

24 too, would be taken away somewhere.

25 Q. So you were parting company, as it were?

Page 5439

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Can you repeat my client's sentence once again, but very slowly

3 for the sake of the transcript. I was slightly sceptical the first time

4 round. So just in order to avoid any misunderstanding, what did he tell

5 Dr. Ivankovic at that stage?

6 A. Doctor, what are we waiting for? We are at war. Lightly wounded

7 and the civilians should go to the left and medical staff to the right.

8 Q. Thank you. There's one thing that didn't get into the transcript.

9 He said: We're at war. Didn't you?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think "state of war" should be

12 better than "we're at war." It's a piece of advice for the interpreters.

13 Q. Did you on that morning -- and I would like to go back to where

14 you were. I suppose you had spent the night in Dr. Ivankovic's office.

15 Is that right?

16 A. Yes, that particular night, yes.

17 Q. And prior to you saying good-bye to Ivankovic, had you already

18 come out into the corridor, out of that office?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So you said good-bye to him in the office?

21 A. No, just outside. Perkovic and myself, I don't know whether I've

22 mentioned him, but the two of us were leaving.

23 Q. Did you hear any of the names being called, any roll-call for

24 people to come out?

25 A. No, Mr. Lukic.

Page 5440

1 Q. Did you hear previously that doctors and medical staff had been --

2 had been called to attend the meeting at the plaster room?

3 A. If it was the plaster room, I remember that they were looking for

4 Dr. Ivankovic and that he left us.

5 Q. And this conversation with Sljivancanin took place after you

6 parted with Dr. Ivankovic or at that precise moment?

7 A. As far as I can remember, it was earlier, much earlier. And this

8 fact when he said: We are at war, was on the 20th in the morning.

9 Q. But you didn't hear that anyone was being convened to a meeting at

10 the plaster room on the 20th in the morning?

11 A. I didn't hear that. Perhaps he might have been invited to attend

12 the meeting, but I didn't hear that.

13 Q. In relation to this column which was formed, these people who were

14 searched later on and led to the buses, could you tell me whether you

15 were, rather, at the start, in the middle, or at the end of the column of

16 those, roughly speaking, 250 people, as you said?

17 A. Maybe in the middle. I couldn't see the beginning or the end.

18 Q. When you described the appearance of my client and how you managed

19 to recognise him later, he [as interpreted] said that he had a military

20 cap, a camouflage uniform, a bullet-proof vest, and a moustache, and he

21 was a tall man?

22 A. That's quite correct.

23 Q. On that occasion -- or throughout your stay at the hospital and

24 also on the occasion when you were leaving the hospital, did you see any

25 people who were also officers or were wearing similar clothes to the one

Page 5441

1 he was wearing?

2 A. I cannot remember. I only saw younger soldiers and the

3 reservists.

4 Q. An that occasion - and I'm referring to the conversation which

5 took place outside Dr. Ivankovic's office - did you see any other doctors

6 from the Vukovar medical centre that you knew at that moment?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Since you were in the office prior to that, I am unable to ask you

9 the following question, so will you just bear with me for a moment.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to be shown

11 his statements.

12 Q. This is the same set of statements that you have been shown by

13 Mr. Vasic. It's something to do with this particular portion of your

14 testimony. Let us now please go back to your statement to the Vinkovci

15 magistrate on the 7th of March, 1996.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just to assist my learned friends from

17 the OTP -- just a minute, please. The English reference -- just a minute,

18 please. Page 3 in the English.

19 Q. The B/C/S page, which is a language that we understand, could you

20 please go to page 3 -- page 2, rather, midway down the page. Paragraph 3,

21 the really big one. I will read something that's there in the middle, and

22 you can confirm if that's what you said.

23 "Pursuant to instructions from this major, the civilians were

24 separated from the rest. The six buses were first taken to the JNA

25 barracks."

Page 5442

1 Is that what you said?

2 A. Yes, roughly speaking.

3 Q. Either this is not something that you referred to at the time or

4 the magistrate failed to record the "slightly wounded and medical staff."

5 A. Well, I have a rough idea what I'm saying, but if you have a look

6 at the document you should know better.

7 Q. You gave a statement to the OTP. The B/C/S reference is 00537419.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 3 in English.

9 Q. This is how the paragraph begins: "At 7.00 in the morning" -- can

10 you see that, Witness?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you want me to read that out for you slowly and you can just

13 check as I go along?

14 A. I agree.

15 Q. "7.00 in the morning on the 20th of November, 1991, when the

16 hospital was already half empty I saw a man I identified as Sljivancanin

17 yelling at Dr. Ivankovic: What are we waiting for? We are at war. He

18 also said that on our way out of the hospital the civilians should go to

19 one side and the slightly wounded to the other. When we left the hospital

20 and lined up in the courtyard outside, Sljivancanin changed his mind and

21 sent the medical staff to the right and the rest of us to the left."

22 Is that what it says?

23 A. I was listening to you. If that's what it says, then I will take

24 your word for it gladly.

25 Q. My question to you now in relation to what you testified here and

Page 5443

1 what you said to the OTP in chief: His words, according to you, were:

2 The slightly wounded and civilians to the left, and the rest --

3 A. And medical staff to the right.

4 Q. Can you tell me whether at this time while you were on your way

5 out of the hospital you actually saw how many medical staff were on the

6 right-hand side?

7 A. This wasn't something that one could see, Mr. Lukic. They took

8 the main entrance facing Lola Ribar Street, that's the hospital's main

9 entrance. And we took the side entrance, facing south.

10 Q. After he said this, do you remember what Dr. Ivankovic said or

11 did?

12 A. Said to me, you mean?

13 Q. Did you hear him say anything at all? Did you hear him talk to

14 Sljivancanin or what did he tell you?

15 A. No, nothing. I don't remember him saying anything at all.

16 Q. Did you see if he - and I mean Dr. Ivankovic - issued any

17 instructions to you or any of the staff?

18 A. No. There was no one near us, Mr. Lukic. I left and went to the

19 hospital courtyard; it's right there.

20 Q. This Chamber has a high degree of familiarity with the various

21 photographs and the general appearance of the entire area, as well as the

22 emergency exit, what we usually term the emergency exit, where the

23 corridor was, and there was the exit facing Gunduliceva Street. Did you

24 see Major Sljivancanin anywhere in that particular area?

25 A. No. It was only while I was still outside that I saw: Everybody

Page 5444

1 should get on the bus.

2 Q. That's the only thing you heard him say?

3 A. Yes. I didn't even have time to look at him. He was turning

4 around, and what do I know? We had been lined up and checked by this

5 time.

6 Q. Yes, you've said that already. Thank you. You knew, and that was

7 your testimony too, that those civilians who had nothing to do brought no

8 relation to the medical staff or the wounded had been taken on trucks to

9 Velepromet the previous evening?

10 A. The previous night, rather.

11 Q. In view of the fact that you were neither medical staff nor

12 wounded, nor did you have anything to do with the hospital, why did you go

13 to Velepromet, too?

14 A. Because Dr. Ivankovic told him: You just sit it out until

15 tomorrow morning, and then you'll be leaving tomorrow morning.

16 Q. You were hiding in his office, right?

17 A. We weren't exacting hiding, but there were about 10, 12, or 14 of

18 us in there.

19 Q. The JNA arrived on the afternoon of the 19th; you described that

20 for us, didn't you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You were a civilian who had previously discarded his rifle under a

23 car that was nearby?

24 A. Yes. A burnt-out shell of a car, rather.

25 Q. There was a breakthrough attempt on your part?

Page 5445

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You had no uniform on?

3 A. No.

4 Q. But you were not one of those people who were supposed to be at

5 the hospital; rather, you were supposed to go to Velepromet, right?

6 A. One didn't know at the time who would go where. Everybody flocked

7 to the hospital.

8 Q. But you heard the trucks and you realised that all the floors were

9 being emptied and that civilians were being taken to Velepromet throughout

10 that night, right?

11 A. To be quite honest, I didn't see but I could hear the roar of

12 trucks taking people away throughout the night. There was a nurse there

13 probably who dropped a hint or something.

14 Q. You must have known at the time, at least based on whatever

15 rumours circulated around the hospital, there were people among the

16 wounded who were pretending to be among the wounded and sick, who were

17 passing themselves off as wounded?

18 A. No, I didn't know about this because I didn't budge from my room

19 for the whole night.

20 Q. What about the next day when you headed for the buses and when let

21 me say you were at the barracks and Ovcara, did you see any persons in

22 white overcoats who you knew for sure not to be medical staff?

23 A. As far as I remember, Samardzic was, but he had been working for

24 the hospital, too, for the last two months before Vukovar fell. I have no

25 idea what exactly he was doing there. I met him once when I was at the

Page 5446

1 hospital, not just to see Dr. Ivankovic. I was giving out cigarette

2 lighters to the wounded, both Croats and Serbs alike.

3 Q. Do you know if, perhaps, he worked with the hospital security

4 detail?

5 A. I didn't know that.

6 Q. That morning outside Ivankovic's office, as you were walking up

7 and down the corridor, did you perhaps see --

8 A. You mean if I saw --

9 Q. I haven't finished my question yet.

10 A. I apologise.

11 Q. Did you see any doctors wearing military uniforms checking

12 patients?

13 A. Beside me, or behind me, for that matter, Mr. Lukic, the only

14 persons there were the two Dosen brothers. One of them was lying on a

15 stretcher and the other was walking past. Martin Dosen, the boxer, I

16 think was the wounded one on the stretcher; and the tall one, the other

17 one, was walking past and -- but he had saliva dribbling down his chin.

18 Excuse my French.

19 Q. But the rest of them who weren't wounded had nothing on them to

20 show that they were in fact not to be classed among the wounded, right?

21 A. No, not to the extent I was able to tell.

22 Q. Were I to tell you that at the time you have specified my client

23 would not have been able to talk to Dr. Ivankovic because they were both

24 at the meeting in the plaster room, which was in a different room down the

25 same corridor that you were walking up and down, and they were actually

Page 5447

1 seen there by some witnesses whose testimony we have heard, you would

2 probably say I'm wrong, wouldn't you?

3 A. Mr. Lukic, if you hold me to that very second when everything

4 happened, it might be my mistake as well, but believe me, I'm not trying

5 to blame Sljivancanin by saying this. It was in passing that he yelled

6 this. Maybe he was on his way to that very meeting. What knows? But

7 that's what he said: Doctor, what are we waiting for? We are at war.

8 Q. Just a minute, please.

9 [Defence counsel confer]

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. I asked you a while ago and -- well, that at least was my

12 understanding. You did not see any people with the hospital IDs who were

13 taken to one side?

14 A. I was among those -- or I was with some of them.

15 Q. Do you remember them remaining outside the bus, the five of them?

16 A. I can't remember specifically.

17 Q. Well now, after the frisking in the tunnel outside the emergency

18 ward, how long did you remain standing there, and how long did you take to

19 get from the emergency ward to the bus? How long do you think that took

20 you?

21 A. Just over an hour, thereabouts.

22 Q. And you only briefly saw Sljivancanin for a moment, as you have

23 described, when he said that all the persons there should be boarded on

24 the buses, right?

25 A. As far as I remember, he just walked off to the left [as

Page 5448

1 interpreted] doing that military step and he said everybody should get on

2 the bus.

3 Q. You said in one of your statements - I'll have to look for it but

4 perhaps you can challenge that I'm saying - the witness --

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can't hear the witness. We

6 believe the microphone is off.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Correction, on page 63, page -- line 25 the witness said: "Off to

10 the right" and the transcript says: "Off to the left."

11 A. Well, who went left and who went right?

12 Q. It's just a correction for the transcript. You went to the left

13 and he went to the right, right, isn't that what you said?

14 A. Yes, I was standing there already. I had been frisked by this

15 time, and he was on his way out from the hospital going to the right,

16 walking towards the hospital staff, going towards Lola Ribar Street and

17 not stopping.

18 Q. Yes, that's it. We have heard testimony before this Court that a

19 colonel was there who gave orders for people to start boarding the buses.

20 Also, you said I believe in one of your statements to the OTP, but if that

21 is not true we'll go and look for it, perhaps if you challenge what I'm

22 about to say, he allegedly told his deputy that people should start

23 getting on the buses. Do you remember that?

24 A. Yes.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't get the witness's

Page 5449

1 answer.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. What about that man? Was he wearing camouflage uniform, too?

4 A. No, he wasn't, Mr. Lukic. He was wearing the regular reserve JNA

5 uniform.

6 Q. Just a minute, please.

7 [Defence counsel confer]

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. While you were on the buses before the buses took off, how long

10 were you there for, on the buses?

11 A. About 20 minutes, I'd say.

12 Q. If I understand your testimony, as one by one the buses were

13 filled, people -- the buses would move along and the people would get on

14 the next bus in line, right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. There was no order given by anybody for some people to go to one

17 bus and some other people to go to another, right?

18 A. Not that I noticed or heard anything like that.

19 Q. I would just like to read back to you a portion of your testimony

20 at the Belgrade trial. This is the 25th of October. There's a copy of

21 the transcript for you.

22 [Defence counsel confer]

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. That's the 25th.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For the benefit of my learned friends,

Page 5450

1 the transcript page, the English, page 69.

2 Q. For you, Witness, it's page 73. It's the 25th. There are two

3 versions of the transcript, and the 25th, the one dated the 25th from the

4 Belgrade trial is the one I'm talking about. Page 73.

5 Mr. Berghofer, the buses that you said had Zrenjanin license

6 plates on them, were those civilian buses and what was their colour?

7 A. I don't know, Mr. Lukic, but they were civilian buses, rather

8 small, not the really big ones. Medium size, I'd say. Not particularly

9 big or particularly small.

10 Q. And they all looked alike, right?

11 A. Yes, very much so.

12 Q. I'm reading from page 73 down towards the bottom of the page.

13 Dragoljub Todorovic, counsel for Croatian victims at the Belgrade trial

14 asked you the following question: "As for the events at the hospital you

15 said: Sljivancanin called over this man Ivankovic and said: These people

16 should go there and those other people should go here."

17 And then you go on to say: "Throughout this time Sljivancanin was

18 the main commander there."

19 My question to you is: Based on what did you reach this

20 conclusion that he was the main commander there? And your answer is - I'm

21 about to read it to you -- that was the question. And the answer was:

22 Witness victim Berghofer: "I didn't say that he was the main man there.

23 He just said: Well, look, Sljivancanin is the kind of man you could spot

24 from miles away; that's how tall he was."

25 And then the counsel asks you another question: "In order to ask

Page 5451

1 you an accurate question, I'll rephrase. You said that he was the main

2 commander there at the hospital. My question is: Based on what did you

3 reach that particular conclusion?"

4 Your answer, sir: "Look, now, I didn't know who that man was. He

5 was wearing a flak jacket and uniform. I didn't see his rank. How on

6 earth would I have recognised him? He was just there as doctor and I were

7 on our way out. He came in and said: Doctor, what are we waiting for?

8 We are at war. The slightly wounded and the rest that I've said and the

9 civilians to the left to Sapudl, and that's all I know about the man."

10 Witness, I have just read back to you what you stated at the trial

11 there. So my question, based on what you've just heard, this is what you

12 stated at the Belgrade trial, and that was your testimony some minutes

13 ago. You had the distinct impression that he was the main man there, that

14 he was exercising command, based on what he told Dr. Ivankovic, right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. We shall now move on to the barracks and the events

17 that took place there. You mentioned before this Trial Chamber the

18 arrival to the barracks and the fact that the buses were parked in a

19 semicircle. Did you on any previous occasion enter the perimeter of the

20 Vukovar barracks? Do you know where the barracks is situated within this

21 entire perimeter?

22 A. I do. I was only 12 metres away from the perimeter myself.

23 Q. These buses that were parked in a semicircle, how far were they

24 from the main building?

25 A. I can tell you that they were pretty far, according to my

Page 5452

1 recollection. It is a bit difficult to tell you exactly after so many

2 years, but maybe up to 50, 60 metres, thereabouts.

3 Q. On a parking lot?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to show two

6 photos to the witness. This is something new, and I believe that it would

7 be of interest to all of us to see what the barracks looked like. We

8 received these pictures when we visited Vukovar from the Defence ministry

9 of the Republic of Croatia -- actually, we received them only very

10 recently. These photos have been disclosed to the Prosecution, so they

11 are familiar with them.

12 I would like to show the witness these two photos, and I would

13 also like the Trial Chamber to see the outline which shows a sketch, and

14 it tells us from what point precisely the photos were taken. It would be

15 easier for you to have a full picture of what the barracks was like.

16 The first picture, picture 2D100009.

17 Q. Mr. Berghofer, are you familiar with this place?

18 A. Yes. It has changed since, but this is the side facing Negoslavci

19 and the first part should be different.

20 Q. Do you recognise something?

21 A. I do, yes. I think this is the barracks, right?

22 Q. Could you please take your Magic Marker and show it to us.

23 A. As far as I can tell, it's these two buildings.

24 Q. Can you please indicate the barracks building by number 1.

25 A. It's not so clear-cut. Here to the right there is a kind of copes

Page 5453

1 [phoen] and some cars are parked here and there is some more shrubbery

2 here, and I can't see it properly. I don't know from what side this

3 picture was taken. If it was taken from the direction of my house, I

4 can't really remember.

5 Q. Would you like it to be blown up?

6 A. The perspective is somewhat weird. I think it will probably say

7 that the dentist's surgery is somewhere -- and I actually grew up there.

8 If this is the barracks, yes, okay, 1, 2.

9 Q. Can we take a look at another picture and then we'll come back to

10 this.

11 A. All right.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at the picture

13 marked 2D100002.

14 Q. Can you recognise anything here?

15 A. Just hang on a second. You keep showing me the wrong side.

16 That's not where we came in. What is this to the right, this big

17 building? Can you help me out?

18 Q. I would like to know, too. And you don't seem to know, and I

19 haven't lived there myself. Can we look at the next picture?

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. It's 2D100003.

22 A. That's it, that's more like it. This is the right one.

23 Q. Can you tell us what we see on this picture?

24 A. As far as I can tell, this is the road to Negoslavci, and this is

25 the side entrance for lorries coming into the barracks. It's not the

Page 5454

1 front gate.

2 Q. Can you tell me, is this where you came in on that occasion?

3 A. Yes, Mr. Lukic. We came from the direction of Negoslavci.

4 Presumably this is the gate then.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wouldn't like anything to be marked

6 on this picture in particular, but can you please admit it into evidence

7 on the basis of what the witness has said, that this is the entrance to

8 the barracks where they came in.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's from the direction of

10 Negoslavci.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Could you help me, please, Mr. Berghofer. Is that

12 a photograph taken from inside the barracks looking out or from outside

13 the barracks looking in?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, from inside looking

15 out.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And is the road that passes from the

17 left side to the right side the road to Negoslavci?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the road into town, according

19 to this picture, and to the left is the road to Negoslavci.

20 JUDGE PARKER: So to the right of the picture is the town,

21 Vukovar, and to the left is Negoslavci?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

24 You tender this photograph, Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

Page 5455

1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D232.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have another picture, 2D100004.

4 Q. Does this area ring a bell? Can you recognise it?

5 A. Well, what I can see is parking areas, garages.

6 Q. Where?

7 A. Here, in front of me.

8 Q. And where are these parking spaces?

9 A. Within the perimeter of the barracks.

10 Q. This is what I'm most interested in. In relation to these garages

11 and in relation to the barracks, can you tell us how far those buses, five

12 or six buses, parked in a semicircle were from these garages?

13 A. Mr. Lukic, it is very difficult to tell at this moment. If this

14 indeed is the parking area for the tanks that I could see on occasion from

15 my own house, because I lived nearby, in my view the picture or -- perhaps

16 not the picture, but the road leading up to the office area should be

17 somewhere here because we came through and entered the secondary courtyard

18 of the barracks.

19 Q. That, I understand. But as far as I can tell on the basis of what

20 you've said, you were about 50 to 60 metres away from the barracks. Is

21 that right?

22 A. It is.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't want to have this entered into

24 the evidence for the moment because it is not, strictly speaking,

25 necessary. And I don't know whether to go into the map now. Perhaps if

Page 5456

1 we could show 2D100001 to the witness just for a moment. Could you blow

2 it up a little bit, please.

3 Q. I must tell you, Mr. Berghofer, that it is not very clear to me

4 but can you see anything at all on this plan? In that case, you could

5 perhaps tell us where you were; but if not, maybe not.

6 A. Let me just try and understand this thing. Can you tell me --

7 Q. It says the Sapudl Street on top.

8 A. I thought that you were showing me the barracks. That's what we

9 were talking about. I do apologise. I didn't realise --

10 Q. No, I do apologise. It's not Sapudl. It says "Sajmiste" in the

11 upper right corner.

12 A. Well, it's too small, I can't read it.

13 Q. I can't either.

14 A. Okay, Sajmiste. But Sajmiste is very big. And now number 2, what

15 is number 2? Is it supposed to be the main gate to the barracks? Perhaps

16 it's the side entrance.

17 Q. The street to the right is the Sanja Marinkovic Street.

18 A. In the former Yugoslavia there was no Sanja Marinkovic Street.

19 That street does not exist. If it was to the right, it is Dr. Mladen

20 Stojanovic Street.

21 Q. That's what we were given by the Croatian authorities, but never

22 mind. We won't dwell on this picture any longer. We will try and show it

23 to another witness who might be able to clarify it a little bit.

24 Let's move to the events in the barracks now. When the buses

25 arrived and were parked in this semicircle, those TO people, volunteers,

Page 5457

1 paramilitaries, reservists, all sorts of them, well, how much later did

2 they appear? Were they already there or did they come along later on,

3 after 15 minutes or 30 minutes?

4 A. Mr. Lukic, they had a party as soon as we came in. They were

5 there.

6 Q. Now, this show of hatred or anger when you were still on the

7 buses, did it go on for all of the four hours that you spent there or did

8 they withdraw at any point?

9 A. Mr. Lukic, they did not withdraw at all, but some of them were

10 absent. But the others went on circling around the buses and sometimes --

11 something else that I didn't say because nobody asked me about it, but

12 they said they had flags and they were furious outside. But the -- they

13 were prevented from coming in by the young soldier who was on the bus, and

14 it went on for about 20 minutes as far as I can remember. But the others,

15 they were going crazy outside.

16 Q. Could we just be specific about this. Those attempts on their

17 part to enter the buses went on for 20 hours [as interpreted] and all of

18 that time they were going crazy outside, as you say?

19 A. Yes, yes, yes. They were shouting and jumping and threatening and

20 you know what.

21 Q. And it went on throughout those four hours that you spent at the

22 barracks?

23 A. Well, no. Can I continue so I'll explain you how it went?

24 Q. You may continue, but what I want to know is this fact --

25 A. Some of them smashed the fire extinguishers, others took

Page 5458

1 implements such as rakes and spades and shovels. And then they took some

2 people on a bus in the direction of Negoslavci and then a group of them,

3 five to six of them, boarded one Yugo car and drove behind the bus to

4 Negoslavci.

5 Q. You've already said that.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what about the rest of them?

8 A. And the rest of them were still going crazy outside.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, I think that at 73, line 16, it should

10 be 20 minutes, not 20 hours.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May I just take a look? Yes,

12 absolutely, it's 20 minutes.

13 [In English] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. [Interpretation] You testified now and throughout your testimony

15 you said that those young soldiers who escorted your buses prevented

16 anyone from assaulting you directly, that is to say, from boarding the

17 buses. Is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, several people got off your bus. You mentioned Kolesar,

20 Professor Licina and Hidek. Is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you remember if their names were called, read out from a list,

23 or how did it happen? How did it come about? Did somebody get on the bus

24 and ask them to get off or were they taken away in another way? I'm

25 interested in those three men.

Page 5459

1 A. Mr. Lukic, as far as I can remember, one reservist, a youngish

2 man, came and said: Well, Professor, how come you're there? And I don't

3 know what the other guy answered. And he took him out, and he took out

4 Hidek and Nurse Biba's husband, Kolesar, and they were all on my bus, as

5 far as I can remember.

6 Q. But do you remember anyone getting on the bus and calling their

7 names?

8 A. As far as I can remember, no. Nobody read out any names, any

9 lists, anything.

10 Q. Do you remember perhaps that Professor Licina sitting in the front

11 seat together with his wife?

12 A. As far as I can remember, Mr. Lukic, he was ahead of me, maybe two

13 lines of seats ahead of me, two rows ahead of me, but I can't remember

14 that he was with his wife. I can't remember his wife, in fact.

15 Q. You gave a statement to the OTP and he said he was never taken off

16 in the barracks but only at Ovcara. Could it be a case of confusion on

17 your part that Professor Licina was first taken off the bus together with

18 his wife at Ovcara but not before?

19 A. I happen to know Professor Licina quite well. Nobody took anybody

20 off the bus at Ovcara. Only that young soldier took Vili Karlovic off the

21 bus that I was on. They knew each other or he had friends in Ruma and

22 Pazova - don't let me go any further into that - but I can tell you that

23 the young soldier saved the young lad's life.

24 Q. Kolesar is the husband of Nurse Biba, right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5460

1 Q. And you are certain Licina was the man who got off the bus at the

2 barracks, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know a man by the name of Rudolf Vilhelm?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you remember him on your bus?

7 A. Mr. Lukic, no, he wasn't on my bus. But now you're probably

8 likely to tell me again: But you didn't say that. And Bulidza was saying

9 something like: What's the matter, Ruca? No more football, is there? It

10 was as if Ruca was two or three ahead of us.

11 Q. Do you remember Ruca getting was on the second or the third bus?

12 Did you see him?

13 A. I can't remember. Then when we met up he told me that he had also

14 been at the barracks.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go briefly into private

16 session for just one question?

17 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5461

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There's a bit of interpretation that

6 seems confusing now. I asked you about Vilhelm Rudolf a while ago. If

7 you can just please repeat. You said you saw him later on and he told you

8 that he had been at the barracks, too. Is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. His nickname is Ruca, right?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the break now, Your

13 Honours? It's convenient for me.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Very well, Mr. Lukic.

15 Now, you mentioned earlier a concern about some lines. As the

16 transcript then read, you mentioned page 48, lines 5 and 6. And the

17 transcript said you -- that it -- thought needed to be corrected. I've

18 been advised that you may have meant page 46, lines 5 and 6.

19 MR. LUKIC: That's right.

20 JUDGE PARKER: And you may have suggested redaction instead of

21 correction. And I thought I'd let you know that I have ordered redaction.

22 Thank you.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You are entirely right, Your Honour.

24 You are reading my mind.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Because of the redaction, we must have a 30-minute

Page 5462

1 break with the tapes. So we will resume at five minutes to 1.00.

2 --- Recess taken at 12.24 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Berghofer.

7 A. Please go ahead.

8 Q. We'll try to finish as quickly as possible and try to be as brief

9 as possible for that very reason, but we still must make pauses between

10 our questions and our answers.

11 One question I forgot to ask you at the beginning, briefly,

12 please, you described the breakthrough, how you left on the evening of

13 the 18th. You passed the -- what used to be the old TO building. You

14 just found a teleprinter there, right, you remember that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. That was actually a command post for the TO, used to be?

17 A. Yes. And it used to be a recruitment office in the former

18 Yugoslavia.

19 Q. My question is: What is the distance between that building and

20 the hospital? What do you think?

21 A. That building is number 7, and the hospital is number 47, about

22 200 metres apart, thereabouts.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go into private session

25 briefly.

Page 5463

1 Q. I'll be asking you some questions in relation to Ovcara,

2 Velepromet, and the barracks, just to check a number of persons related to

3 these events, and then we can go back into open session.

4 JUDGE PARKER: You'll limit this just to people who are subject to

5 problems? Yes. All right. Private session.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5464

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. You said you walked from Modateks to Velepromet, and you were led

13 by Jezdimir Stankovic, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was he wearing military uniform?

16 A. Yes, he was.

17 Q. You knew him from before, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I'll ask you about some persons now. I won't be showing you the

20 statement, but they were mentioned in that official note that the police

21 officer took from you which you say you didn't sign.

22 I will ask you the following, however. Did you mention to that

23 police officer -- or rather, did you see at Velepromet a man by the name

24 of Vlado Djitko?

25 A. Yes, it was within the perimeter of Velepromet. I saw him as I

Page 5465

1 was walking around. He is my former wife's cousin.

2 Q. He was wearing a JNA military uniform, too?

3 A. Yes, he was.

4 Q. What -- how old was he? What do you reckon?

5 A. He might have been about 27 or 28 years old.

6 Q. You also saw Seman Djurika?

7 A. Yes, he was an apprentice of mine.

8 Q. Was he wearing a uniform in Velepromet?

9 A. Yes. He is Pavlovic's son-in-law.

10 Q. Can you tell us his age?

11 A. He may have been born in 1946 or 1948. I had just left the army,

12 and he came to become an apprentice. There were perhaps four years in

13 between.

14 Q. Pavlovic, what about Pavlovic?

15 A. He was a stonemason. He helped with my house. I saw him at

16 Modateks.

17 Q. Was he also wearing a JNA uniform?

18 A. Mr. Lukic, in Modateks. You got that? Yes. He was in uniform,

19 standing guard there.

20 Q. What about Pero Krtinic? Did you see him at Velepromet?

21 A. Of course I did, Mr. Lukic. I still see the image as if this

22 happened only two days ago. He was jumping with joy when they brought me

23 there.

24 Q. Was he wearing some sort of uniform, too?

25 A. Can I repeat this, please?

Page 5466

1 Q. Please go ahead.

2 A. Yes, he was wearing a uniform. And when he saw me, he started

3 jumping for joy, and he said: Men like these, men like Drago, these are

4 the men that we ought to kill.

5 I summed enough courage to say: And for what reason? Our mothers

6 had been neighbours for 40 years. You know what? He was suddenly lost

7 for words. He said nothing at all. He was totally dumbfounded.

8 Q. Thank you. All these persons that I have listed are persons that

9 you saw in Modateks and Velepromet. These people are Serbs, people who

10 were not prisoners there, but rather were guarding you in Modateks and

11 Velepromet?

12 A. Not guarding. They were just there doing something, who knows

13 what? Both Djitko and Seman are Ruthenians, not Serbs.

14 Q. But they were all wearing JNA uniforms.

15 A. Yes, but they were not anywhere in our vicinity.

16 Q. You knew these people from before because they were natives of

17 Vukovar like you?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. All these people were wearing the same uniforms as those soldiers

20 standing outside the so-called room of death, right?

21 A. No. These were a little older, and outside the room of death

22 there were two young soldiers. So the uniforms looked fresher, too.

23 Q. There's no doubt about that. You described the soldiers standing

24 outside the room of death as young soldiers and you didn't know them. Is

25 that right?

Page 5467

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And they had cleaner or fresher looking uniforms than those other

3 ones?

4 A. Yes, there was some degree of difference.

5 Q. It was because they seemed younger and you didn't know them, and

6 because of their fresh uniforms you believed them to be regular JNA

7 soldiers. Is that a fair assessment?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please briefly go back into

10 private session?

11 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5468

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Yesterday while testifying in chief, we are now moving to the last

13 segment of your testimony, as it were, the barracks after Velepromet where

14 you were taken before you were off to Sremska Mitrovica. You described an

15 incident, if I may call it that. You were first fed because you hadn't

16 eaten in a long time, and then - and I took this down verbatim - you said:

17 While you were asleep you heard sounds of people being hit and moans. You

18 said that as far as you remembered that was your neighbour, Silt, but you

19 didn't yourself see this person being beaten by anyone. So my question to

20 you is: Is that what you said, first of all?

21 A. Yes, that's what I said.

22 Q. This room, the entire group that I mentioned a while ago, that

23 entire group of people, please don't say their names, were you all in that

24 same room in the barracks before your journey to Mitrovica?

25 A. For some reason I seem to remember that Vili Karlovic wasn't

Page 5469

1 there, but I'm not sure, and then some other people came from somewhere

2 else. But let's assume that Cakalic, myself, Guncevic, and someone

3 else - who was it? - were there, but I'm not sure about Vili Karlovic.

4 Q. There's a correction. Page 84, line 7, it says the barracks of

5 Velepromet, whereas I said: When they were taken from Velepromet to the

6 barracks. I don't think that this is in dispute anyway.

7 This room in which you were being kept, how large was it?

8 A. To be quite frank, I didn't really notice, but it was quite

9 large. The way I'm picturing it now, there was some sort of a corridor

10 and a room, but I'm stuck for the exact image right now and it's difficult

11 to say.

12 Q. Just let it be then. You didn't ask this man called Silt whether

13 anyone had beaten him or who had beaten him? That's what you said, right?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. Did you exchange comments with any other of your fellow sufferers,

16 to put it that way, about his beating, as it were?

17 A. The moment we got to Mitrovica, Silt was taken somewhere else to

18 Serbia, and it was later on that I found out from him -- I asked him:

19 Were you the one who got a drubbing back there, and he said yes. But that

20 was after the liberation.

21 Q. But you didn't hear it from him on that occasion on that day or on

22 the way to Sremska Mitrovica or in Mitrovica itself, right?

23 A. No, not that I remember.

24 Q. All of your memories about those days in Vukovar were the subject

25 of your testimony twice before this Tribunal. You testified in Belgrade,

Page 5470

1 you testified before the investigating magistrate in Zagreb, the

2 investigating magistrate in Vinkovci, you gave a statement to the police

3 in Croatia, and you gave statements to the OTP. Up until now -- or

4 rather, yesterday in this courtroom you never mentioned this to anyone

5 else, right?

6 A. I can't say for sure, but as far as I know nobody ever told me

7 that I was not supposed to talk about testifying in The Hague.

8 Q. What about this man called Silt? Did he display any physical

9 signs of having been beaten the next morning when you were heading for

10 Mitrovica?

11 A. I can't say. We said our good-byes very quickly. Some people's

12 names were called out, and these people were then taken away.

13 Q. Thank you very much. I'm now moving on to my last set of

14 questions. I'll try to be as brief as possible. It's more by way of a

15 conclusion based on everything that I have heard from you, so please try

16 to confirm this, sir.

17 You provided a detailed account of the mistreatment that you were

18 subjected to at Ovcara before this Tribunal. You described the mental

19 torture, too, and you described what you suffered at Velepromet. Did you

20 suffer any mental or physical mistreatment or even did you receive any

21 threats while you were at the hospital, yes or no?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Aside from the threats outside the bus, were you subjected to any

24 physical or mental mistreatment while you were in the barracks when those

25 soldiers were guarding you on the bus?

Page 5471

1 A. No.

2 Q. In actual fact, throughout the time you were being guarded by the

3 military police officers no harm came your way. Could I say that?

4 A. Yes, roughly speaking, that's true.

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

7 questions.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

9 Mr. Moore.

10 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. I have very few questions.

11 Re-examination by Mr. Moore:

12 Q. Throughout your time from being taken on the bus through the

13 barracks and Ovcara, did you -- or did you see anybody receive any medical

14 treatment or assistance for their injuries?

15 A. I myself did not receive any medical treatment, but I do remember

16 this one man who felt extremely sick. He had been vomiting the whole

17 night. I later realised that this man was Guncevic, but I didn't know

18 that at the time, if that's what you mean. I myself requested nothing in

19 particular.

20 Q. Did you see anybody receiving any medical treatment when they were

21 at Ovcara and being beaten?

22 A. I didn't see anything like that.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Vasic.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I am not certain

Page 5472

1 that this arises out of the Defence's cross-examination.

2 JUDGE PARKER: We'll ask --

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Provision of medical assistance,

4 anything like that.

5 MR. MOORE: I thought the suggestion of the cross-examination was

6 that no abuse had occurred and that they were being properly looked after

7 when they were in the hospital at the JNA barracks and through to Ovcara.

8 Perhaps I've misunderstood.

9 JUDGE PARKER: I think that is open, so please continue,

10 Mr. Moore.

11 MR. MOORE: Well, I'd actually finished my questions, so I'm in

12 the fortunate position of not having to go any further.

13 Q. There has been a suggestion about the JNA barracks being cut off

14 in August and perhaps September. Now, how far away did you live from the

15 JNA barracks before you left on the 24th of August?

16 A. Well, Your Honour, the -- as far as it took to cross the road, 10

17 or 11 metres, I guess.

18 Q. And prior to the 24th of August, are you able to help the Court on

19 this topic: Did you see if the JNA barracks were cut off, people couldn't

20 go in and out? Can you help us with that?

21 A. No, not that I knew of. I was taking 12 tonnes of coal somewhere,

22 and everything appeared to be fine.

23 Q. I'd like to deal with the hospital, please, and the morning of the

24 20th of November. You have told us that you saw a man, tall man with a

25 moustache, whom you believed to be Sljivancanin. All right? Did you see

Page 5473

1 any other person who was similar in description and, namely, tall, with a

2 moustache, who was issuing you orders at any time?

3 A. No, Mr. Judge, I didn't. He was remarkably tall. He had a

4 remarkable moustache. He is not a man one is likely to forget that

5 easily.

6 Q. But the questions, I anticipate, were perhaps to suggest that

7 there might have been someone else of a similar description. Did you see

8 anybody else of a similar description in the hospital that morning issuing

9 orders?

10 A. No. No, I didn't.

11 Q. Thank you very much. I want to deal with your trip to

12 Sremska Mitrovica. You told us when Mr. Vasic was asking some questions

13 that a gentleman - and I think I have got it down correctly - called

14 Soljic was killed next to you. Now, do you remember giving that evidence?

15 It was yesterday. Can you very briefly tell us, please, how someone was

16 killed next to you at Sremska Mitrovica?

17 A. Well, Mr. Judge, when we came to Mitrovica, the reservist, the one

18 who shook hands with me, and Djuro, the driver, saw us off the bus. We

19 ran a gauntlet that comprised about 25 police officers from within the

20 perimeter there, guards, if you like. They were beating us, each and

21 every one of us. They stripped us naked. They beat us. We were naked

22 when they took us to the hall. They searched us thoroughly. One of them

23 was standing at the door. He knew karate. He was beating people. In

24 particular, he hit me in the stomach. I took a blow to my stomach. I

25 rode it the best I could. He grinned at me and hit me another five or six

Page 5474

1 times.

2 We left the hall naked and were beaten again. A man named Dusko

3 saw me there. We put on some clothes and I can say that that was the

4 greatest amount of beatings I ever received. I fell unconscious four

5 times in a row. I was picked up every time, and one of them said: Dusko,

6 what is the matter with you? How can you do things like this? Soljic

7 isn't coming back up. So this Dusko came, and he was laughing or jeering.

8 He said: Look, he's had too much ice-cream, probably. The man must have

9 frozen to death already. It was bitterly cold on that day.

10 Q. Can I deal then with your interrogation. You said you were

11 interrogated three times, one of which was, you described, as being

12 particularly dreadful. Now, please just focus on this interrogation that

13 I'm talking about. And you said three times and one was particularly

14 dreadful. Can you please tell us about that one time that was

15 particularly dreadful. What happened?

16 A. The one time that was particularly dreadful was the beating that I

17 just told you about. I couldn't stretch my shoulders for three weeks. It

18 was as if I had been on a holiday to Hawaii or someplace like that. They

19 were dressing my wounds. I spent three or four months barefoot. I

20 couldn't put any shoes on because Dusko had removed my shoes while we were

21 still outside; everybody from my room knew that.

22 When I was taken for interrogation, I have a loud voice. I'm a

23 very vocal person. But there was this man and two other men, one sort of

24 more sophisticated, but the other was really shouting at the top of his

25 voice. He started shaking me and pushing me. He said: Where's your gun?

Page 5475

1 Where's your secret letter? And other forms of humiliation and

2 mistreatment.

3 The more sophisticated one at this point said: Where did you do

4 your military service? I said: In Svetozarevo. He said: The branch? I

5 said: Self-propelled gun. He asked: The calibre? And I said: 90

6 millimetres.

7 And then he said to the other man there: He is lying through his

8 teeth; I can no longer stand to listen to him. But that was meant more as

9 a joke. So these were the two incidents involving atrocity.

10 And the third time that I remember, we were with this fine

11 officer, and he addressed me. He even addressed me formally out of

12 respect, and this was the last interrogation that I was subjected to. He

13 said: Tell me, how many Serbs were killed in your area? And I said:

14 Can you please repeat that question for me? He said: I'm asking you how

15 many Serbs were killed over in your area? I'm not saying it was you who

16 killed them, but who was it, because one thing you should keep in mind is

17 we have other ways of interrogating people.

18 Q. All right.

19 A. I can tell you that ...

20 Q. Sorry, carry on. You can tell us what?

21 A. It was before this last interrogation that I had been interrogated

22 another time. It went quite smoothly --

23 Q. All right --

24 A. -- But two of them --

25 Q. Well, I won't take it any further unless my learned friends want

Page 5476

1 me to do so.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

3 MR. MOORE: I have no additional topics on re-examination, and

4 that would conclude the evidence for this witness.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

6 You'll be pleased to know, Mr. Berghofer, that that's the end of

7 the questions and the end of your evidence. It's been a rather long

8 session. Is there anything that you wanted to say?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you, first

10 of all, for defending me and not letting them call me a liar. And

11 secondly, you saved me because one tends to forget something most times at

12 every trial. And so what I had forgotten once was the JNA vehicle, the

13 Campagnola vehicle, the fact that, you know, today, for example, the

14 entire statement about Modateks that I'm -- don't have to make here, but

15 within five years, if I am asked to testify again, perhaps you won't be

16 there, perhaps Mr. Moore won't be there, perhaps Mr. Lukic won't be there,

17 and then I'll find myself in an uncomfortable position if I can't

18 remember. Well, why didn't I mention Modateks? So this is enough for

19 me -- you know, for you to make it official that I didn't give you the

20 full Modateks story. So thank you very much.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Well, the Chamber would like to thank you for

22 coming to The Hague and for the assistance that you have given us, and you

23 are now, of course, free to return to your home. Thank you very much.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 5477

1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to take the opportunity

3 now that we're having a short break to raise two issues, one of legal

4 nature and the other one of technical nature, so to say.

5 The legal issue that I would like to hear from the Trial Chamber

6 on has to do more with the previous witness, the one that preceded

7 Mr. Berghofer. At the time, you gave them the instructions with regard to

8 Rule 90(H), and I saw the witness entering the courtroom already so I

9 didn't want to raise the second issue. And the second issue is the

10 following.

11 In the course of the testimony of the previous witness, the

12 Prosecution entered into evidence a document which was not on the 65 ter

13 list, and Mr. Smith did point it out, in fact, on that occasion, and that

14 document was entered into evidence.

15 Now, with regard to the interpretation of Rule 67(C), it is my

16 understanding that documents which appear at a later stage that one side

17 wants to enter into evidence must immediately and as soon as possible be

18 revealed to the opposite side, as it were. And now I'm not going to

19 mention what document it was because it was a private session -- or

20 rather, a closed session. If need be, we can go to closed session. But

21 on the occasion of his interview which was given in July, this document

22 was given to the Prosecution, and it is indicated in the transcript of

23 that interview, and the Prosecution wrote their pre-trial brief, I think

24 in August, if I'm not mistaken. And at that stage, this document was not

25 included in the 65 ter list, and I'm a little bit anxious about what might

Page 5478

1 happen in the future, and therefore I would just like to ask whether

2 perhaps the Prosecution can dig up a document that was in their possession

3 before they wrote their pre-trial brief and then come back and enter it

4 into evidence at a later stage.

5 This is one topic. So if you could perhaps be so kind as to

6 answer that and then I'll ask my second question.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Well, Mr. Moore, it seems Mr. Lukic is concerned

8 that you tendered a document which had a relevance but which had not been

9 discovered. Can you comment on that?

10 MR. MOORE: Well, my understanding was it was Mr. Smith's witness,

11 and I, for my part, while I do actually try and read the transcripts

12 every -- the following day or that day, as it proceeds, I regret to say

13 I'm not sure which document my learned friend is referring to.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Fortuitously Mr. Smith is here. He may be able to

15 help us.

16 MR. MOORE: Could I just make one additional matter.

17 I know I've spoken to my learned friends about this. It can be

18 after this particular argument, and that is I would ask the Court,

19 perhaps, to revisit the issue of disclosure of documents in advance the

20 period and the nature of the documents. I would like to clarify that, and

21 I know my learned friends would as well. But we can deal with that after

22 this point.

23 MR. SMITH: Unfortunately, Your Honour, I can't help you with it.

24 I didn't think there was any document of significance, so perhaps

25 Mr. Lukic -- perhaps if he could just state which document it was and I

Page 5479

1 can explain further.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we just go into private session

3 for a second?

4 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And then we can continue our arguments

6 in public session once again.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5480

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: Back in open session.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to address

11 you on behalf of all three Defence teams, and I believe on behalf of our

12 clients as well, even though they haven't given me instructions in this

13 respect. And I believe on behalf of our colleagues from the Prosecution,

14 OTP, I suppose we're all in agreement on this.

15 We know that the official holidays of the UN is the Catholic

16 Easter which is on the 15th of April, I believe. But this year the

17 Orthodox Easter is a week later, that is to say, the weekend after. We

18 know that it is not an official UN holiday, but I also know that very

19 often this Court takes into consideration needs of Orthodox families when

20 they want to get together to celebrate their holidays.

21 In this respect, I would like to ask you if it would be at all

22 possible to grant us holiday for that week. Perhaps it would be easier

23 for the accused as well, because their families would have the opportunity

24 to come for a longer visit because, as you know, at the moment they only

25 come on weekends. And it would also perhaps help the Prosecution and the

Page 5481

1 Defence teams to better prepare for the next stage of the trial. And I

2 believe that lately we have tried to do our best to follow your

3 suggestions in terms of the length of cross-examinations, et cetera. We

4 tried to divide up the topics, et cetera, and whenever we are working on

5 common goals to make sure that it is a joint effort.

6 I have already spoken to Mr. Moore. I'm not saying that Mr. Moore

7 is just approving it, but I think he's finding it very convenient as well.

8 So this is my appeal to you.

9 Thank you.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Have you any opposition to that proposal,

11 Mr. Moore?

12 MR. MOORE: It's entirely a matter for the Bench. We would not

13 object to that course.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Can you predict at this stage with your ever-clear

15 crystal ball where the Prosecution might be at the time of the first of

16 the two Easter weekends, which is just about precisely the middle of

17 April?

18 MR. MOORE: Yes. I was hoping -- the current timing is we have

19 done an analyse of it, is that we are putting through witnesses on the

20 Prosecution case, I think it's just under three hours per witness. And in

21 context, I had anticipated that we would conclude crime-base witnesses

22 this month. There would be the two monitors involved, and we would be

23 starting the military evidence.

24 We have a problem that arose last night, which the Court may or

25 may not be aware of. It's a registry problem. We had a witness that was

Page 5482

1 going to be giving video testimony; that apparently is not going to be

2 possible because there is another trial that also wants to use the

3 facilities. And that's going to throw that sequence, to be quite simple

4 about it -- it is the grave-digger at Ovcara. And I wanted to put it in

5 that particular position.

6 The European monitors, one of them has been to hospital and will

7 only be free to give evidence after the 17th of March. So I would have

8 thought we will be into our military witnesses by about the 14th of April

9 and well into the military witnesses. And I have in mind that we are

10 hoping to finish the case by the end of April, the first two weeks of

11 March [sic]. I would be very surprised if we went any further than

12 that -- May, sorry.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Does that mean that your real target now is the

14 middle of May?

15 MR. MOORE: No. My main target is and does remain the end of

16 April. I've got a strange echo in my --

17 JUDGE PARKER: That's because I've turned on.

18 MR. MOORE: No, our target is definitely the end of April. But

19 when we lose a week, it adds on a week.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Well, that adds a week.

21 MR. MOORE: Yes.

22 JUDGE PARKER: But then you've got to a couple of weeks in May.

23 MR. MOORE: Well, I know but --

24 JUDGE PARKER: Is that just the Irish in you?

25 MR. MOORE: It might be. I don't know. But I think we have kept

Page 5483

1 it fairly tight. As I say, I doubt if there's any trial I know that has

2 been putting Prosecution evidence through under three hours per witnesses

3 on average. We have two large witnesses at the end; they are experts. My

4 learned friends, who don't have the advantage of being Irish, they will

5 know perfectly well --

6 JUDGE PARKER: They will understand that I have an Irish name and

7 that's why I say that, yes.

8 MR. MOORE: But I'm hoping that -- and I've been asked can I give

9 them two weeks' notice on the military experts, and I'm lining up my

10 military experts for really the weeks just after Easter, and that's what I

11 have in my mind.

12 So we have kept fairly good time, actually, in fairness to us.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE PARKER: In our minds, but possibly not in anyone else's at

15 the moment, a point of relevance is agreed facts. Has there been any

16 progress with those?

17 MR. MOORE: Yes, the agreed facts are all agreed with, I think,

18 two exceptions. And I was going to mention it to the Court, but I'm

19 hoping that in actual fact, one of them, upon reflection by one of the

20 Defence team, it matters not whom, may be agreed. It deals with the

21 discovery of the bodies, and we submit, obviously, that there is a clear

22 date. Perhaps others may take a different view. I don't want to air such

23 matters in public.

24 JUDGE PARKER: No. But the point is this: Your estimate of the

25 length of your case, does this assume that those facts will become agreed

Page 5484

1 or not?

2 MR. MOORE: I am assuming they will become agreed, and I'm hoping

3 they will become agreed upon reflection.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber is conscious of the submission that the

6 two celebrations of Easter fall a week apart, depending upon which

7 calendar is followed. And as that intervening week involves only four

8 sitting days, as one is already a United Nations holiday, the Chamber will

9 indicate now that it will not sit in that week so that all counsel can

10 make plans to have that week for their own. And the accused, if it prove

11 practical, can make plans with respect to the visit of their families.

12 I am unaware of the present airline schedules. Is it convenient

13 to be back here for Monday afternoon or is it that we should commence on

14 the Tuesday, if you're to have Easter Sunday with your families?

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the beginning I didn't actually

16 want to mention Monday, but we have a problem with the change in the

17 Yugoslav Airlines's schedule, and so now they're flying on Monday

18 afternoons. And it is for this reason that we would prefer starting on

19 Tuesday. And even if we used another airline company, it would be a bit

20 of a problem for us to be here on time on Monday afternoon. But Tuesday's

21 fine.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will not sit from the Friday, which

23 is Good Friday on one of the calendars through to the following Monday

24 week. So there'll be just over one week effective break. We will resume

25 sitting on the Tuesday. I haven't a calendar with me to give a precise

Page 5485

1 date, but it's Tuesday roughly the 23rd of something like that of April?

2 MR. MOORE: 25th.

3 JUDGE PARKER: 25th an angel tells me.

4 Now, Mr. Moore, was there one other matter?

5 MR. MOORE: There are two other matters.

6 Just dealing with Mr. Lukic's concerns, he's quite right, the

7 document was not on 65 ter list. However, it was disclosed to the Defence

8 in batch 41 on the 5th of October, last year.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

10 MR. MOORE: That's the first number. I can give the ERN number if

11 there's any problems.

12 The second matter is a matter, I don't know if it can be dealt

13 with today or not. It's really a clarification of where we stand

14 vis-a-vis whether it's 24 hours for all documents to be used in

15 cross-examination or documents that are excluded from the 65 ter list or

16 whether 24 hours is appropriate and it should be 48 hours, because it

17 obviously applies both ways.

18 Can I just make a -- one small submission at this stage?

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 MR. MOORE: We would ask for 48 hours and disclosure on any

21 document.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, our position would be for any document,

23 but we will hear submissions at the beginning of next week.

24 MR. MOORE: Certainly.

25 JUDGE PARKER: When people have had time to reflect on it, whether

Page 5486

1 24 or 48 hours would be the most practical.

2 Would they be your two matters?

3 MR. MOORE: Yes, it is.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Could the Chamber mention that it has now received

5 the checked transcript of the question put by Mr. Vasic which was relevant

6 to the document that was -- is being held at the moment to see whether or

7 not it should be amended. My quick look at that when it arrived indicated

8 that Mr. Vasic's understanding was substantially correct. We will give a

9 decision Monday or Tuesday on the admission of that document.

10 I think that then is all our business today, and we will resume on

11 Monday at 2.15.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day of

14 March, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.