Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6380

1 Tuesday, 21 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.28 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. I'm sorry for the late start. It

7 appears we had either a lost witness or lost Bench. There seems to be

8 confusion. But the witness was being held until we were here, and we were

9 here waiting for the witness. So, having overcome that problem, we are

10 now able to commence.

11 Now, Mr. Moore.

12 MR. MOORE: May I just deal with an additional problem? And I'm

13 sorry to interrupt the Court proceedings, but it is important to be dealt

14 with at this time.

15 The next witness is Ambassador Kypr. He was a European Commission

16 monitor. He was -- and will give evidence in relation to background of

17 matters in Vukovar and leading up to the Vukovar incident. He was

18 contacted by the Prosecution, both by telephone and by e-mail, asking what

19 documents that he -- the documents that he has. We informed him that we

20 had one copy of what I will call handwritten notes. It relates to Major

21 Sljivancanin, his name, and some other matters. We did ask whether there

22 were any other documents that he had. He informed us that he had his own

23 notebook. We asked to see the notebook, for it to be faxed through to us,

24 and he was reluctant to do that and said that he would bring them to

25 court, or bring it to court.

Page 6381

1 He arrived on Sunday evening. I saw him yesterday for the first

2 time, and it was then apparent to me that there was a document that had --

3 I think it's approximately 26 pages of handwritten notes in B/C/S, the

4 Czech language, and English. There has been no suggestion whatsoever in

5 previous trials of the existence of this document. And, as I say, we

6 asked for it, but he was reluctant to provide it to us. And there is,

7 quite simply, nothing one can do in a situation like that.

8 I have come to Court today because, quite clearly, my learned

9 friends have now had copies served on them. I don't have translations

10 either; we are in exactly the same situation. I have gone through the

11 contents of the document. They're clearly relevant and they go to

12 central issues that the Court will have to determine.

13 My learned friends and indeed myself would wish the translation of

14 those documents. They relate to evidence in chief and undoubtedly many

15 matters for cross-examination. I anticipate that it will take two days

16 for that document to be translated. The reason is perfectly

17 straightforward: They're done in code, as well as ordinary English, or

18 ordinary language, whether it be Czech or B/C/S, and it will be necessary

19 for the ambassador to sit down and go through the documents so that there

20 is an accurate translation.

21 As a consequence of that, my learned friends, and they will be

22 more than able to submit on behalf of themselves, will not be in a

23 position to cross-examine until they've got the translations and have had

24 a chance to peruse it. I, for my part, would have thought they would need

25 perhaps no more than one day, but that's a matter for them and their

Page 6382

1 application.

2 Consequently I am not in a position to call any other witness

3 apart from Ambassador Kypr for two reasons: One, I try and ensure that

4 witnesses come at an appropriate time so we don't have a number of

5 witnesses waiting; and secondly, the other witness is Dr. Schou, who is

6 Danish. He will be -- he is also a European Commission monitor, and the

7 source material for Mr. Kypr is exactly the same as for Dr. Schou, and

8 clearly they are interrelated. Your Honour may remember there was an

9 attempt for us to call them earlier, because of the sequence, as much as

10 anything else. Dr. Schou has had medical problems and was not available

11 until after, I think, the 16th of March was the first available date.

12 So the situation as we now have it, is, I regret to say, we're not

13 able to proceed with the next witness, because of the problems that we

14 have with his own unique document.

15 JUDGE PARKER: When is it that you would be able to commence

16 leading evidence from the next witness, in your expectation.

17 MR. MOORE: I have gone through the document with him. I haven't

18 been able to take any notes. I've just tried to understand the general

19 structure and the importance of the issues. I would anticipate that if he

20 sits down with a language assistant or a translator that it would take

21 approximately a day for the original document to be transformed into

22 intelligible -- an intelligible format in B/C/S, and obviously from the

23 Czech language into English and B/C/S, but equally the English has to be

24 translated into B/C/S also. It's handwritten, and with the most respect

25 to him, his handwriting is not always the clearest. So I would have

Page 6383

1 thought a one day for the translation to be done, one day for it to be

2 ensured that it is accurate, it would be served, I hope, then on Thursday

3 morning. That is the timetable, the best case scenario that I can think

4 of. So it would not be ready, I would have thought, at the earliest,

5 before Thursday morning. So we would lose a day, maybe two or three.

6 JUDGE PARKER: What length of time do you anticipate that the

7 witness will take?

8 MR. MOORE: I will be taking the witness in chief. I would

9 anticipate that will take five hours, something like that. I would

10 consider that the length of time would be about the same as Colonel Vujic,

11 perhaps slightly less, but there are various areas that one goes into, and

12 it's sometimes rather difficult to assess how long that's going to take.

13 It deals with other areas as well.

14 JUDGE PARKER: From what you say, the practical question boils

15 down to whether the witness should commence on Friday this week?

16 MR. MOORE: Yes. For my part, I am quite prepared to start on

17 Friday. I have no difficulty. I think the difficulty will be whether my

18 learned friends will have enough time to cross-examine. But, having said

19 that, I can certainly take in chief --

20 JUDGE PARKER: I am assuming that they would not cross-examine

21 until next week.

22 MR. MOORE: That's what I was --

23 JUDGE PARKER: If you intend to take five hours.

24 MR. MOORE: If I took the witness in chief on Friday, then clearly

25 my learned friends would have some time, I would have thought, to prepare

Page 6384

1 cross-examination, to start cross-examination on Monday.

2 I apologise for the delay, but it's not of my making, neither is

3 it of the defence making. It's just, I'm afraid, one of those things that

4 happens.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Start on Thursday would seem at the moment to be

6 unreasonable. A, we can't be confident hat the document will be ready.

7 MR. MOORE: Correct.

8 JUDGE PARKER: B, if it is ready, Defence counsel would not have

9 had an opportunity to study it, so that they would be at a disadvantage as

10 the evidence in chief was given. Thank you.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE PARKER: The position seems to be that we must adjourn at

13 the end of the evidence of the present witness to resume on Friday morning

14 at 9.00.

15 MR. MOORE: Does Your Honour want to see the e-mails that were

16 sent to the ambassador, or does Your Honour accept my word?

17 JUDGE PARKER: We have what counsel has indicated to us.

18 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Mr. Lukic.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good

21 afternoon to everyone else.

22 Just a few words on behalf of the Defence. My friends and I

23 consulted each other visually only, and we think that we can start next

24 week with the cross-examination of this witness, providing that we receive

25 the translation simultaneously with the Prosecution, so that we can go

Page 6385

1 over it with our clients.

2 What concerns us and what we need to bring to your attention, is

3 that this document seems to be very important, and it seems to resemble,

4 in its form, the diary of Ambassador Okun. There will be a lot of

5 documents discussed as part of it. Part of this document was available to

6 the Prosecution back in 1996; certainly within the Dokmanovic trial. One

7 page of that diary was already subject of evidence of a witness. What

8 surprises us is that this document, which was placed on the first 65 ter

9 list, was not given to us earlier, and now we have only three or four days

10 to analyse this document.

11 We are, therefore, kindly asking the Chamber this: Should we find

12 something in this document that requires further examination on our part,

13 then we would like to be given an opportunity later to complete the

14 cross-examination. We would prefer not to take this course of action, but

15 right now we don't know, because we don't know what is contained in this

16 document, and this is why we want to inform you of this reservation that

17 we have concerning the document. Otherwise we are quite prepared to

18 commence with our work and to start analysing the document with our

19 clients.

20 I need to make a correction. In relation to the transcript, it's

21 not that the document was on the first 65 ter list; it's that the name of

22 this witness was put on the first 65 ter list.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. The Chamber sees little

25 point at the moment in going over issues as to why this occurred. Our

Page 6386

1 concern is to ensure that, it having occurred, the trial can continue with

2 fairness and as quickly as possible.

3 We will start the evidence of the witness on Friday. Should there

4 be some basis for concern, it can be raised by Defence counsel, either on

5 Friday or when they commence cross-examination, and it will be assessed on

6 its merit.

7 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, could I just say, we did not have the

8 document. We have -- on --

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, you've explained it. We understand

10 that.

11 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you indeed.

13 There being no other matters, we might continue with the evidence.

14 May I remind you of the affirmation you made at the beginning of

15 your evidence, which still applies.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith, have you completed entirely?

19 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. I have completed my

20 examination-in-chief.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

22 Mr. Domazet.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Domazet:

24 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Good

25 afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.

Page 6387

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Domazet:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Karlovic. My name is

3 Vladimir Domazet. I am one of the Defence counsel of Mr. Mrksic, and I

4 will be putting some questions to you regarding your examination-in-chief.

5 Given that both of us speak the same language, in order to ensure

6 the accuracy of the transcript, I will ask you something that I will try

7 to observe myself, which is to always make pauses between questions and

8 answers so that what we say can be translated into English and recorded

9 properly.

10 First of all, Mr. Karlovic, something very brief concerning your

11 personal information. Yesterday in examination-in-chief I think that you

12 said to my learned friend that you are an owner of a building company, or

13 something similar. It is not the most relevant issue, but six months ago

14 when you testified in Belgrade you described yourself as a retiree, as a

15 pensioner. So which of the two is correct? Or have there been any

16 changes in your status?

17 A. Both of those things are correct. I am retired, and I am also an

18 owner of a building construction company.

19 Q. Thank you. You have retired as an officer of the Croatian army;

20 is that correct? Up until 2002 you were a member of the Croatian army,

21 which means that you were eligible for retirement based on your service

22 with the army; is that correct?

23 A. I became eligible for retirement based on my health condition and

24 disabilities.

25 Q. Thank you. But in addition to serving in the army, you didn't

Page 6388

1 have any other years of service that contributed to your being able to

2 retire?

3 A. No, I didn't.

4 Q. Yesterday in examination-in-chief you said that you didn't serve

5 in the JNA and that the first army where you served was the Croatian army,

6 which you joined in August of 1991.

7 My question is this: You completed your high school, or the

8 secondary school in 1989, and based on the then existing laws in the

9 country, you were supposed to go and serve in the army immediately after

10 completing secondary education. How come you didn't go to the army at

11 that point? Were you exempted? Did you go through the recruitment

12 process and all other procedures that accompany? Did you complete that in

13 Zagreb?

14 A. First of all, I graduated from secondary school in 1989; you are

15 correct. It was in 1989. I married in 1990. And since my wife was 16

16 and a half at the time when we got married, I asked for postponement of my

17 military service so that I could support my wife and the child that was on

18 its way.

19 I don't know whether I answered all parts of your question. If I

20 haven't, would you please refresh my memory.

21 Q. Yes, you have. You have answered.

22 The only other follow-up question I have is that: Does this mean

23 you were granted a postponement in relation to your military service and

24 that this is why you didn't go into the army until later on, 1991?

25 A. Yes. I was given an official legal postponement.

Page 6389

1 Q. Thank you. You said yesterday, and you also stated this in your

2 statements, that in August of 1991 you joined the Croatian army and that

3 you had a 15- to 20-day training in Kumrovec; is that right?

4 A. Yes, that's correct. I can't vouch that it's fully accurate in

5 terms of the days, but something like that.

6 Q. Regardless of whether it was 15- or 20-day training, will you

7 agree with me that it's rather a short time for military training, for a

8 proper military training? So would you please explain to me what kind of

9 training did you receive in that brief period of time? What kind of

10 soldier training?

11 A. You're quite correct. That is definitely too short a period for a

12 proper military training. There was hardly enough time to teach us

13 anything else but the basics of infantry training, how to shoot and so on,

14 that was an abbreviated form of training.

15 Q. Within that training did you have any instruction in terms of the

16 rights and duties of soldiers? As you have said yourself, it was clear

17 that a conflict was in the making. Therefore, tell me: Did somebody tell

18 you what would be your rights and duties if you were to capture an enemy

19 soldier, or vice versa, if you yourself were captured?

20 A. Yes, we naturally had that type of training too.

21 Q. Thank you. Were you told in the training, or did you perhaps know

22 at the time, something about the JNA ranks?

23 A. No, I wasn't familiar with that.

24 Q. Very well. As an explanation for going into the Croatian army on

25 a voluntary basis, you said that you wanted to defend the homeland, if I'm

Page 6390

1 not mistaken. You said that at the time Croatia had been attacked and

2 when asked by my learned friend by whom, you said by the JNA. And then

3 you added yourself that the most critical parts were Eastern Slavonia,

4 Lika, southern part, and Banija. Do you remember giving this reply?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I would like to know what you meant when you said, "Southern

7 part," because other geographical regions are quite clear?

8 A. I was referring to a portion of Dalmatia, to the southern portion.

9 Sibenik region, Zadar region, if that is indeed in the south.

10 Q. Thank you. Did you also refer to the area around Knin when you

11 said that or not?

12 A. I'll be quite frank, I didn't even consider it.

13 Q. You mentioned these four regions as being critical in your view at

14 the time. Can we agree that these regions were precisely the areas

15 containing a significant percentage of Serbian population, and in some

16 areas Serbs were the dominant population?

17 A. Yes, we can agree on that. And we can also agree that a

18 significant portion of Croatian population also lived in those areas.

19 Q. Yes, certainly, Mr. Karlovic, because we are talking about

20 Croatia. However, these regions were populated by a significant amount of

21 Serbs, and this is probably why you termed them critical areas, and this

22 is probably what contributed to the eruption of the conflict?

23 A. I wouldn't agree with that. I cannot agree with that.

24 Q. You cannot agree with me in saying that tensions erupted or

25 escalated?

Page 6391

1 A. I can't agree in that portion of your sentence. There were no

2 tensions among the population because the population does not have tanks,

3 weaponry and so on. The population never goes into war. The residents

4 don't have any mortars at home.

5 Q. Thank you. This is your view. I will not dwell on this topic.

6 It will be up to others to analyse it.

7 A. I agree with that.

8 Q. I would now like to turn to something else. You mentioned several

9 places that you visited before your unit came to Vukovar. I, for my part,

10 am interested only in Vukovar. You said that during the night between the

11 30th September and the 1st October you arrived in Vukovar via Bogdanovci

12 and Luzac; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You explained that you reached Bogdanovci by bus and then walked

15 via Luzac to Vukovar. That night did you have any kind of a conflict with

16 the JNA, or were you able to reach Vukovar without any conflict?

17 A. We were too small a group in order to be able to engage in any

18 sort of conflict. Had there been any conflict, we would not have been

19 able to reach Vukovar. This must be clear to you.

20 Q. Yes, naturally. Based on your answer, I can conclude that there

21 were only 21 soldiers in your group. There was no larger unit arriving

22 there simultaneously. Is that right?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. You also said that you relieved another unit there; I suppose

25 another unit from your brigade which either left Vukovar or remained

Page 6392

1 there?

2 A. They left Vukovar that same night.

3 Q. And I suppose they used the same route to leave Vukovar?

4 A. I don't know that. I can only guess.

5 Q. Mr. Karlovic, you said that this unit was under the command of

6 Tihomir Perkovic, and that Josip Nemec was his deputy, they were senior

7 officers. What were their ranks, did they hold any ranks at the time and

8 what was their military background or training?

9 A. As for ranks, we did not have any ranks at the time. We only had

10 posts. As for their military education, I really know nothing about that.

11 Q. Your unit numbering 21 soldiers, I assume this number included the

12 two of them as well. Were you some kind of a special unit or was this

13 just what you said, a unit that belonged to the 1st Brigade, I think?

14 A. We were part of the National Guards Corps, members of the

15 1st Brigade. We were not known as a special unit or anything of the sort.

16 Q. Yes, you said 1st Brigade, 4th Battalion, 3rd Company. Were you

17 part of the 3rd Company or were you the 3rd Company?

18 A. We were the 3rd Company.

19 Q. Mr. Karlovic, do you know where the headquarters of the brigade or

20 battalion was and who was in charge of the brigade or the battalion?

21 A. I'm thinking about the commander. And, to tell you the truth, I

22 really don't know who was the commander of the brigade. I can give you

23 two names. One of them most likely was the commander. I think that

24 Mr. Rukavina, General Rukavina and General Josip Lucic were in charge.

25 I don't know where the headquarters was. I can also give you a

Page 6393

1 probable location where the headquarters was, but I'm not fully certain.

2 I think that the headquarters of the brigade was in Rakitje, in the

3 vicinity of Zagreb.

4 Q. Thank you. The names that you gave us as the possible names of

5 the commanders, these people were not in Vukovar at the time; is that

6 right?

7 A. Yes. I never saw them in Vukovar. And at the time, in fact, I

8 didn't even known these people.

9 Q. Speaking about your unit, you said that -- you mentioned something

10 about weapons, personal weapons, about rifles, automatic rifles. This is

11 what you mentioned in your statement. My question is: Did you have

12 launchers, hand-held launchers?

13 A. We had so-called Zoljas. These are disposable rocket launchers.

14 The gentlemen will know what I'm talking about. And I said that each one

15 of us was also issued two hand-grenades.

16 Q. You had that along with your personal weapons, automatic rifles;

17 is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You said that you had a uniform; you even explained the insignia

20 that you had on the uniform. What I'm interested is one detail that

21 appeared later, you will remember when, and that was that you had yellow

22 boots on. That footwear, was that issued to you in Vukovar itself or did

23 you come to Vukovar with the footwear?

24 A. It was issued in Vukovar.

25 Q. During your stay in Vukovar, since you changed positions while you

Page 6394

1 were in Vukovar, do you know that besides the local population that took

2 part in the defence of Vukovar, do you know if there were any other units;

3 for example, any other soldiers or members of the police who took part in

4 the defence?

5 A. Yes. I know that they did.

6 Q. Are you familiar with the HOS units? If not, maybe we can clarify

7 that. You know what HOS was at the time, don't you?

8 A. I heard that there were HOS units in Vukovar, but I was never in

9 any kind of contact with them.

10 Q. Did your unit have its headquarters, or was it under the command

11 of some other headquarters in Vukovar itself? And if that was so, where

12 was the command?

13 A. Well, we didn't have any sort of headquarters of command -- or

14 command of our own. We were subordinated to the command of the town

15 defence. Once I was sitting in a truck while we were waiting in front of

16 this bunker where the town defence command was located. I was never

17 inside, though. I know who was in command, though.

18 Is there anything else?

19 Q. Yes. For the purposes of the transcript, yes. Please tell us who

20 was in command and where was this -- these headquarters where you were at

21 one time?

22 A. At the time the commander was Mr. Dedakovic, and I know that it

23 was located in the centre of town. I don't know exactly where, though. I

24 don't know the street.

25 Q. Mr. Karlovic, do you know where the Eltz castle was? Do you ever

Page 6395

1 go there?

2 A. I don't know. I was never at the Eltz castle, so I don't remember

3 where it was.

4 Q. Did you ever hear what was located there?

5 A. No, I didn't.

6 Q. Just to check on some things that you mentioned yesterday, when

7 you talked about artillery fire at your positions, first of all, you said

8 that you were able to confirm the direction of fire when the shooting was

9 coming from the direction of Vojvodina, from across the Danube, whereas

10 the other fire you could not determine where it was coming from because it

11 was being fired from different directions. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You also talked about occasional fly-overs and air force attacks

14 by the JNA. Do you know if, at the time when you were there or in the

15 previous period, there were any planes knocked down over Vukovar?

16 A. I don't know whether I mentioned planes or not, but what you say

17 is correct, there were fly-overs. As for planes being brought down, I

18 never saw anything like that myself, but I did hear that planes were

19 downed.

20 Q. Do you remember whether these planes that were down, which period

21 was that in, was it before you arrived at Vukovar, or when you were

22 already there?

23 A. I really cannot remember.

24 Q. Your first position was at the silo. You explained that -- where

25 the silo was, and you explained the significance of it. Your unit, or

Page 6396

1 some other unit, did it actually use the silo, did you climb on top of it

2 or anything like that?

3 A. Yes, we used it. I mean we were billeted there.

4 Q. If I understood you correctly, you were the commander of a squad

5 or actually of a half of that unit; is that correct? So following these

6 other two men that you mentioned, you were also some kind of commander of

7 a half of the unit of this squad of men; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. One more question on this topic. It was about how you were

10 supplied for the time that you were there. Where did you get your food

11 from? Do you know whether the food was distributed from some central

12 location?

13 A. I don't know. I know that the truck brought food every day, but I

14 don't know where it came from.

15 Q. Thank you. Yesterday in response to a question by my learned

16 friend about the differences between the JNA, different formations,

17 soldiers, you provided a detailed explanation. So I don't have any

18 particular questions except regarding one point, which I would like to

19 clarify.

20 You said that the reserve forces were part of the regular JNA

21 forces. By that were you thinking of those reservists who were mobilised

22 in the regular procedure and joined the JNA units, or were you thinking

23 generally of reservists who existed and, according to regulations, had

24 been issued with uniforms which they kept at home in expectation of being

25 called up? So are you talking about regularly mobilised reservists, or

Page 6397

1 reservists who reported without actually being called up, who did it

2 voluntarily?

3 A. Well, yesterday I didn't really differentiate between these two

4 groups, but I did tell you now that I believe that both of these kinds of

5 reservists were members of the JNA. As far as I'm concerned, the two are

6 the same. The description of the uniforms that I provided, and I told the

7 Prosecutor that, that is my judgement, that is how I saw these

8 particulars. I apologise if I'm going too fast for the court reporter.

9 Q. Thank you. I agree with you that a reservist who is summoned

10 would then come and join the unit and becomes a part of that army

11 regardless of the young soldiers, the conscripts who were there serving in

12 the regular -- their regular term of duty. But what about these others

13 who were reservists without having been called up who participated in

14 combat? In your opinion, could they also be considered reservists without

15 officially be called up to join the units?

16 A. Well, you will agree with me that I am not able to know who

17 actually received a summons and who didn't. I looked at the soldiers and

18 I sorted them out according to which possible group they could belong to.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Perhaps in this particular way we are not

20 able to understand each other. I did want to make a difference between

21 these two groups, even though you explained when I say that these others,

22 or the Territorial Defence members wore different uniforms, so they could

23 be clearly differentiated from the regular JNA soldiers. Is that correct?

24 A. Well, I could tell the difference between them, but I don't know

25 if I was right or not.

Page 6398

1 Q. When we're talking about the combat in Vukovar, you mentioned that

2 after 20 days or so you pulled back from the line at the silo and you went

3 to the Prvomajska Street where you participated in the fighting and

4 gradually withdrew towards the centre as the operations proceeded; is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So in that period you probably did participate in combat, direct

8 combat, compared to the period spent at the silo where you said there was

9 no direct combat. So in that period did you see your unit, or maybe some

10 other unit, with captured JNA soldiers or wounded JNA soldiers?

11 A. I didn't have the opportunity to see any captured soldiers

12 belonging to the JNA or any other group. I don't recollect my group ever

13 being in such a situation. However, we were in a different position when

14 we came to those positions. We were no longer one group only. We had

15 been broken up and distributed or allocated to different groups.

16 Q. I understand. So this 21-man unit was broken up and deployed to

17 different units; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, we were at different positions.

19 Q. I understood from your answers that you knew where the police

20 station in Vukovar was?

21 A. I know roughly.

22 Q. Did you go to that police station when it was still functioning as

23 a police station?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you perhaps hear that there was a prison in the police station

Page 6399

1 that had been turned into a prison for prisoners of war, or for those who

2 were captured?

3 A. No, I didn't.

4 Q. In mid-November, you were explaining actually the situation in

5 Vukovar in mid-November, and it was your assessment, and not only yours,

6 that it was only a matter of days before Vukovar fell. You personally

7 were trying to work out what you were going to do, and you also described

8 what you were doing over those last few days, the period that you came to

9 the hospital. Was your unit all together at that time, and were you

10 trying to see at the level of your unit as a whole headed by your

11 commander, Perkovic, what you were going to do, whether you were going to

12 try to make a break-through or remain in Vukovar as a unit?

13 A. No, we were no longer a unit as a whole. Our commander, Perkovic,

14 left Vukovar that same evening, so it's like I'm making a kind of

15 digression.

16 As far as the agony of the fall of the town, you could already see

17 on the 1st of November that it was only a question of time before the town

18 fell. This did not become apparent, only later towards the middle of the

19 month.

20 Q. Thank you. Now that you mentioned your commander, Perkovic, and

21 that he left, I didn't understand exactly when was it that he left?

22 A. The same night that we arrived at Vukovar was the night that he

23 left.

24 Q. Are you thinking of the 1st of October when you just arrived? He

25 didn't stay with you that whole time?

Page 6400

1 A. Yes, that is correct. In October. And he didn't stay with us.

2 Q. So who was commanding your unit, if he wasn't with you that whole

3 time?

4 A. Josip Nemec.

5 Q. You said yesterday, as well as in previous statements, that you

6 decided to go to the hospital and surrender there, because you were

7 expecting that the JNA would enter Vukovar and the hospital; is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. At the end of his examination my learned friend went through all

11 of the statements you provided in different proceedings. And one by one

12 you confirmed that all the statements he mentioned yesterday were yours,

13 that you remembered them, and of course you said that you always spoke the

14 truth and nothing but the truth in those statements. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. I would like to ask you something about your 1995 statement to

17 investigators from the OTP in relation to the hospital. I think perhaps

18 that -- well, you probably don't have the statement in front of you, so it

19 would be good for me to provide you with a copy of this statement, so that

20 you could confirm whether what I read out is actually stated in the

21 statement.

22 A. Well, you go ahead and read it out. I -- I trust you. I believe

23 what you say.

24 Q. Well, I would still prefer if you had a copy. So could the usher

25 please give you a copy and then ...

Page 6401

1 Please, if you would look at page 3, paragraph 3; and for my

2 learned friends, the English version is also on page 3, but it's

3 paragraph 5. When you said that those who wanted to -- to could take off

4 their uniforms and put on civilian clothing. "When I arrived at the

5 hospital with all the others, we were told to take off the uniforms and

6 put on civilian clothing using whatever clothes they could find."

7 Did you find that?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. Is that what it says in your statement?

10 A. Well, if I can just say, you didn't read it correctly.

11 Q. Well, then you read it correctly.

12 A. "When I arrived at the hospital, all of the other soldiers were

13 told." This is very different from what you said. I don't know --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please not overlap.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Could I ask you, Mr. Karlovic, to go back to the

16 habit of watching the screen and waiting for the last question to finish

17 on the screen before you answer? If you can try and remember that.

18 And, Mr. Domazet, if could you try the same. Thank you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to apologise, Your

20 Honours.

21 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 So in order to avoid any confusion we will read it again.

23 Q. So it says in the statement: "When I arrived at the hospital, all

24 of the other soldiers were told to take off their uniforms and put on

25 civilian clothing using whatever clothes they could find."

Page 6402

1 You confirmed that that is part of your statement. I'm asking

2 you: Who was it who told these soldiers to do this?

3 A. Had I known who it was who said it, then I would have said that at

4 the time. What I said was that this was stated, but I don't know who said

5 it.

6 Q. All right. So you don't know who said this, that's fine. You

7 spent at least three days and three nights in the hospital?

8 A. Three nights.

9 Q. I think that you said that during that time your names were not

10 taken down, no list was created. My question is: Throughout that period

11 of time, did anybody from the hospital or from anywhere else ask you what

12 you were doing there, you and the others? How was it possible for you to

13 stay so long there without anybody asking you anything? Because you, for

14 example, were not wounded, and you were not named as a patient, were you?

15 A. I apologise. I didn't quite understand your question. You are

16 asking me how come nobody asked me anything ever. I don't know how to

17 answer. I don't know how come nobody ever asked me.

18 Q. So you are confirming that throughout that time nobody ever asked

19 you what you were doing there, how come you were there, you were not put

20 on any list?

21 A. As far as I remember, no.

22 Q. You mentioned seeing the first JNA members on the 19th. You said

23 that there were no problems and that their attitude was such that they

24 were quite friendly, peaceful; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6403

1 Q. It was on the 19th. On the 20th, you described us the situation

2 when you were lined up, searched, in order to find any weapons, and then

3 you were sent to buses. You didn't say anything about this, but I suppose

4 that no weapons were found on anyone; is that right?

5 A. I don't remember. As far as I remember, no weapons were found.

6 Q. If I understood you correctly, that whole procedure of searching

7 and entering buses, you described as properly conducted; is that right?

8 You had no complaints about the treatment you received from soldiers.

9 A. Yes. That was normal military conduct. At the time there were no

10 outbursts, no problems.

11 Q. Thank you. You also said in the barracks in your bus there were

12 two soldiers. I suppose two soldiers in addition to the driver who did

13 not allow anyone to get on the bus, even though the people outside were

14 pressuring them to enter the bus, the people outside who were insulting

15 people. So I suppose that you viewed this conduct of the JNA soldiers as

16 a proper one?

17 A. Yes, a proper one.

18 Q. When you left the barracks and came to Ovcara, you encountered

19 there a totally different scene. You described to us how you left the

20 buses and then you said that you saw JNA soldiers there as well. So I

21 suppose that these were the soldiers who were already there when the buses

22 arrived. That was your conclusion; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Let's leave aside those whom you identified as Chetniks, members

25 of TO and the others. Let us now focus on the soldiers who stood around

Page 6404

1 the hangar, those that you saw. Can you tell me what kind of uniforms

2 they had? You identified both olive-drab and camouflage uniforms, so

3 which type did they have?

4 A. As far as I can remember, they had both. I can't tell you which

5 ones were more numerous. You will understand that it's been 15 years, so

6 quite a long time.

7 Q. Do you remember what they had on their heads, was it helmets,

8 caps?

9 A. Some had helmets, some had caps.

10 Q. Were you able to see who was in command of these JNA soldiers, did

11 they have somebody who commanded over them while you were there?

12 A. I can't say that I saw or was able to identify who was his

13 commander individually. I don't know that.

14 Q. Thank you. But you mentioned some officers, you mentioned a

15 colonel whose last name you weren't sure of. Let me remind you, you

16 mentioned several possible last names for this colonel, Ivankovic,

17 Ivanovic, something like that. You also mentioned a person with the last

18 name Ivankovic who was the son of Dr. Ivankovic. So when talking of this

19 colonel, I suppose you did not have in mind the son of Dr. Ivankovic?

20 A. No, no, I didn't.

21 Q. So this is a different person, an entirely different officer of

22 the JNA. My question is this: Was it perhaps Colonel Vojinovic? Would

23 this assist you in remembering? Is it possible that this colonel's last

24 name was Vojinovic?

25 A. Listen, it would be ridiculous and improper for me to accept

Page 6405

1 Vojinovic as the actual last name. The last names that I gave you were

2 the ones that stuck in my head, and Vojinovic means nothing to me.

3 Q. Yes, it's been a long time. You gave three or four possible last

4 names for this colonel. I was just trying to see whether it was possible

5 that it was this man.

6 A. I wish I knew the last name.

7 JUDGE PARKER: I think it was only two names that the witness

8 offered, Mr. Domazet, not three or four.

9 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that in the

10 statement I saw a third last name, Jovanovic. But at any rate we now

11 clarified that it was not Vojinovic. The witness gave us his answer, and

12 I thank him for it.

13 Q. What I would like to know is who set up the gauntlet, the gauntlet

14 through which people entering the hangar had to go and were beaten as they

15 went through it. When answering the questions of my learned friend

16 yesterday, I think that you said that everybody joined this gauntlet, and

17 if "everybody" includes the JNA soldiers, then I would like to know that.

18 Therefore, did the JNA soldiers join the gauntlet?

19 A. Everybody took part in the beating, both in front of the hangar

20 and inside.

21 Q. All right. Let's separate what happened in the hangar and what

22 happened outside, and especially in the gauntlet. I'm asking you now

23 about what took place outside. In the gauntlet you said that the two

24 lines were formed, two columns of people, a so-called gauntlet. Do you

25 remember regular JNA soldiers being in that gauntlet? Did they beat you

Page 6406

1 as well?

2 A. Yes. And if I may expand. The JNA soldiers came to the gauntlet

3 to take groups of people and usher them inside the hangar. So it was hard

4 to see, discern exactly what was going on. There were JNA soldiers in the

5 gauntlet, but the majority of those in the gauntlet were Chetniks and TO

6 men. I hope I was clear enough.

7 Q. Is that what you said in your prior statements?

8 A. Perhaps I didn't go into details. I don't remember anymore.

9 Q. Would you please take the statement in front of you. This is your

10 1995 statement, page 4. I think passage 10, paragraph 10, which begins

11 with the words: "The buses were lined up." In English, that's page 5,

12 paragraph 2.

13 A. I'm interested only in the B/C/S version.

14 Q. Yes, but I'm saying this for the benefit of the Prosecutor.

15 I will read this out and you will tell me whether that's

16 correct. "The buses were lined up, one behind the other. The first bus

17 was level with the entrance to the hangar. We were all made to get out of

18 the buses and when I got out I saw that there were two lines of Chetniks

19 standing on either side of the entrance to the hangar. Everyone was

20 forced to walk in between the lines of Chetniks, and while I was standing

21 in line, I saw that people were being beaten by the Chetniks as they went

22 through the lines, beaten with wooden poles, chains, and gun-butts.

23 People were also having their clothes taken off them, which resulted in

24 some of the men ending up wearing only their underwear."

25 Is that correct what I read out?

Page 6407

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you see that in three places in this paragraph you say that it

3 was only Chetniks who made up the gauntlet, that it was only them who beat

4 the people, and no TO men are mentioned and no soldiers are mentioned.

5 This is the statement that you gave back in 1995, and you never varied it

6 until yesterday when you gave a somewhat different description, including

7 the JNA soldiers in the gauntlet?

8 A. I didn't say in the statement that it was only the Chetniks who

9 beat the people. And I continue to affirm that those who beat the people

10 were mostly Chetniks. It was mostly them who made up the gauntlet.

11 Q. But you will agree with me that you didn't state so in your

12 statement? In your statement you mentioned only Chetniks. You never

13 mentioned who made the majority or not. You mentioned exclusively

14 Chetniks in your statement.

15 You spoke about the beating inside the hangar. Yesterday, as well

16 as in your prior statements, you said that you stayed in the hangar for a

17 very brief time. You estimated that it was three to four minutes. You

18 said that you were hit several times, you received several blows, but then

19 somebody came with a captain and then you described that the beating

20 stopped and you were taken outside. Is that what you stated?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can we agree that during that brief period of time while you were

23 in the hangar and when you were beaten, you did not have sufficient time

24 to observe what was going on in the rest of the hangar, to see who beat

25 whom, and who did the beating, members of which groups? So that's what

Page 6408

1 I'm interested now. To what extent were you able to observe what was

2 going on in the hangar, considering that you were there just a very brief

3 period of time, and you were beaten yourself?

4 A. Sir, three to four minutes isn't all that brief. That's the first

5 thing I wanted to say. The second thing is, upon entering the hangar, one

6 can observe the entire scene. So you can definitely see what's going on.

7 10 seconds is a brief period of time. Three to four minutes is not.

8 Q. Approximately six months ago you testified in Belgrade in front of

9 the court there. We have a transcript of the trial in Belgrade, and every

10 word is recorded in it, just like here. I would like to give you this

11 transcript now so that you can confirm to us whether you indeed stated

12 this in Belgrade.

13 Could the usher please assist us?

14 A. What's important to add is that in the Belgrade trial I was

15 defence witness.

16 Q. You said in that trial that you were testifying for defence, and

17 if you remember, the president of the trial chamber told you that they did

18 not discern between prosecution and defence witnesses, that the witnesses

19 were there to tell the truth. And when you say that you testified for the

20 defence, you probably meant those two accused that you mentioned

21 yesterday?

22 A. Yes, they were there.

23 Q. Will you agree with me that those two accused were accused as

24 members of paramilitary formations?

25 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know what capacity they had.

Page 6409

1 Whether they were members of paramilitary formations, reserve forces, I

2 don't know.

3 Q. Would you please look at page 20 of the transcript?

4 Can you find the part of your answer where you testified precisely

5 on this topic and then you say: "I didn't look very carefully to see who

6 hit whom, but one could hear that people had to put their heads down and

7 keep their hands on their shoulders."

8 Were you able to find this?

9 A. Page 20. 20/45; is that right?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Is it at the top of the page, the middle of the page, the bottom

12 of the page? I can't ...

13 Q. Yes, I wasn't really looking that specifically who was hitting

14 who, but you could hear that people had to keep their heads down and their

15 hands behind their backs. I received a few blows. And then you say: "I

16 wasn't there for long, three for four minutes." And this is not in

17 dispute.

18 So even for yourself, as far as you're concerned, you say that you

19 don't know who beat you, you say you didn't really watch, that it didn't

20 take that long. So you still abide by the statement that there were JNA

21 soldiers who took part in that.

22 A. Well, I said that I didn't really pay that much attention, and I

23 stand by what I said, that everybody took part in the beating. But I

24 wasn't really looking at how many people beat how many other people,

25 whether all of them were beating everybody or some were beating some

Page 6410

1 people.

2 Q. Well, this is also about your estimate of the numbers. Yesterday

3 you told my learned friend about how many soldiers there were, you gave

4 your estimate of the number of soldiers in the hangar, as well as outside

5 of it. Do you remember that in Belgrade you were also asked about this.

6 Even the president of the trial chamber insisted, and you kept saying that

7 after such a long time you really couldn't recall the number.

8 Could you please look at page 13. It's page 13, line 8 or 9, that

9 begins -- I'm going to read and you can follow.

10 The president of the trial chamber asks: "How many, in your

11 estimates, were there in the Chetnik formations and those belonging to the

12 JNA?"

13 Your answer: "Please don't take it badly, but I cannot remember."

14 The president of the trial chamber: "Some estimates, you cannot

15 give us anything like that?"

16 Your answer: "I dare not make any estimates. It would be

17 absolutely improper after 14 years for me to give an estimate. I don't

18 know."

19 Did I read correctly what is stated here?

20 A. Yes, you did.

21 Q. Do you notice that then you did not want to give the number in

22 answer to the president's question, and you said that after so many years

23 you didn't want to state anything which you were not sure about, but

24 yesterday you did give an estimate?

25 A. Yes, I absolutely agree with you. First of all, yes, when I

Page 6411

1 testified in Belgrade at that time I didn't know what I would be asked and

2 I wasn't prepared for any sort of estimates, and the estimates I did give

3 were just my views about the numbers and they don't have to be correct.

4 So I more or less knew what I would be asked, I had time to think about

5 it, and I gave figures to the prosecutors and I also told them that they

6 need necessarily not be correct. So I absolutely agree with you. What

7 you say is correct.

8 Q. Thank you. If I understand you correctly, your estimate of

9 yesterday is your estimate, it need not necessarily be correct, because so

10 much time has passed since then?

11 A. Yes, we're talking about my estimates. That's what it is.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am completing this

14 topic, and I don't have too much to go, but I think that still this is a

15 good moment for our break.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Domazet. It's just about time for

17 the tapes to change.

18 We will resume at five minutes past 4.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Domazet.

22 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Karlovic, before we move on to a different

24 topic, I wanted to ask you the last -- one last thing about Ovcara.

25 As concerns the gauntlet, I wanted to show you what you stated

Page 6412

1 during the Dokmanovic case. This is an excerpt from the transcript in

2 English. I am about to read it aloud, and my colleague will follow

3 whether I am reading correctly. And you also said that the Chetniks

4 formed the gauntlet and you didn't mention anyone else.

5 This is page 751 in the Dokmanovic case: "[In English] When you

6 personally had to get off the bus?"

7 [Interpretation] Your reply: "[In English] I saw that in front of

8 the hangar a gauntlet or -- was -- was created by the Chetniks, and people

9 were passing through there."

10 [Interpretation] Therefore, during the Dokmanovic case you stated

11 somewhat similar to what you said in Belgrade, and yet here yesterday and

12 today you spoke about soldiers participating for the first time. I

13 believe you still abide by the explanation given before?

14 A. As I said a while ago, it was the Chetniks who made up the

15 gauntlet, but it was not able for the other soldiers not to participate.

16 Hence, I don't see your point clearly.

17 Q. Mr. Karlovic, to move on to what happened at Velepromet and

18 Modateks, and I have a few questions in relation to that. I believe you

19 said that you were escorted to Modateks by the person who introduced

20 himself to you as Stuka?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I believe you said that he returned to Ovcara. How do you

23 know that?

24 A. This is what I remember. There were several of them. There were

25 four of them, and they were talking about the fact that they were supposed

Page 6413

1 to go back, that they had to go back. I felt unsafe without them, I asked

2 them if they could stay with us. And he said that he was supposed to go

3 back. That's why I said so.

4 Q. But as to whether they returned indeed, you don't know that,

5 because you never saw them again?

6 A. Yes, absolutely.

7 Q. As for the remaining six out of your group of seven who came to

8 Modateks, all six of them were together with you tomorrow [as interpreted]

9 in Modateks and Velepromet as well?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You mentioned a person who was in charge in Modateks, and his

12 nickname was Deda. Did he hold any rank, was he a military person or --

13 A. I can't know for sure, but I can offer my opinion. As for his

14 rank, I didn't know whether he held any, but I know he was an elderly man.

15 Q. Do you know whether he held any rank at all, whether he belonged

16 to the military?

17 A. I don't know whether he had any rank, but he was superior to those

18 soldiers who were there with him.

19 Q. As for the other person at Velepromet for whom you said he

20 commanded over the military policemen, you also told him that he -- told

21 that I didn't have a white belt, hence you couldn't identify him as a

22 military policeman. Why do you believe he was the commander there and

23 what was his uniform like, since you said he had no white belt?

24 A. I don't know whether you understood what I said yesterday as to

25 who it was that didn't have a white belt. I didn't have in mind the

Page 6414

1 person who commanded at Velepromet, but about a person who was together

2 with the military policemen that escorted me to Velepromet.

3 Q. Could you explain further, please? I probably misunderstood.

4 A. The person who commanded at Velepromet did bear the military

5 police insignia, and as far as I can remember, I believe he had a white

6 belt. I don't know whether he had any belt supports across his shoulder.

7 I don't think I ever mentioned his white belt ever, but this is the person

8 whom I thought was the commander of the military police.

9 Q. You mentioned the person from whom you later found out was the

10 commander of the barracks in Vukovar, and you said that he took you to the

11 barracks in his own private vehicle of Opel make?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. As is stated in the transcript in the Ovcara case, and I can

14 remind you, I believe you didn't mention that yesterday, but he supposedly

15 said that when he was talking to the commander you mentioned that you said

16 they were cursing, and you said he mentioned something along the lines

17 that, "We have dealt with the Ustashas and it seems now that we will have

18 to deal with the Chetniks."

19 A. Well, when I spoke about that yesterday, it didn't seem to be

20 important enough to mention it.

21 Q. But in your assessment, he was the barracks commander and had he

22 stated something along those lines at the time?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. He took you to the barracks in his own vehicle, the rest went by

25 bus. And as far as I understood, they treated you fairly in the

Page 6415

1 barracks. I believe you were given food and water, and I think you said

2 that they were correct in their communication with you during that night?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you discussed Mitrovica where you spent some six months, you

5 said that you were interrogated on several occasions, but that you were

6 never treated as a suspect and that no proceedings were ever initiated

7 against you. Did you know that there were proceedings instituted against

8 some other people held at Mitrovica; for example, some were charged with

9 armed rebellion and some of them even faced a court and they were

10 sentenced afterwards?

11 A. Yes, I am familiar with that.

12 Q. But you were in the charged with anything, that in particular?

13 A. No.

14 Q. During the interrogations, did you speak about your role in

15 Vukovar and about the events you participated in, or did you try to avoid

16 the topic?

17 A. To the extent I was able to avoid it, I didn't mention those

18 things. I never hid, though, that I was a soldier, that I was a part of

19 the 1st Brigade, and I told them what battalion I belonged to.

20 Q. I believe you said yesterday that several people participated in

21 the interrogations, and that you couldn't remember their names. I wanted

22 to put a name to you or, rather, whether any of those people who

23 interrogated you ever introduced themselves as Colonel Branko?

24 A. I can't recall any of that.

25 Q. During the interrogations, did they ever ask you about Ovcara?

Page 6416

1 A. No, of course not.

2 Q. And you didn't discuss it with anyone yourself, did you?

3 A. No, I did not.

4 Q. When you mentioned the Belgrade proceedings, and as you stated

5 today, you said that you believed to be a defence witness there; is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. Did you have in mind the defence of the two people you knew at the

9 time under their nicknames of Kinez and Mare?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Am I right in saying that it was during the proceedings in

12 Belgrade you learned of their real and full names?

13 A. You are partially correct, and if I may explain, I will do so.

14 As concerns Predrag Milojevic, I heard of him before as being

15 someone referred to as Kinez, but I didn't know he was that person at the

16 time, because I believe he was wanted for war crimes in Croatia. I read

17 that in the Croatian press. At that time I couldn't believe it was the

18 same person. I had heard of Kinez before, but in Belgrade I just realised

19 that indeed it was the same person.

20 Q. The incident you testified about, and you tried to explain to the

21 Belgrade court how those two people treated you and that it should be

22 taken into account, am I right if I say that concerning the incident you

23 never stated anything or you never spoke about it with anyone in 1995, in

24 1996, or in 1998 in the Dokmanovic case, and that for the first time in

25 December 2005 was the first time you discussed that incident and the

Page 6417

1 Velepromet incident?

2 A. I wanted to expand on -- in my explanation. As regards my

3 discussion with the investigators of the OTP, the entire story always

4 ended with Ovcara. We never got as far as Velepromet. In Croatia,

5 though, I gave a detailed account to the security service that lasted for

6 two days, and I mentioned there Kinez and Mare, clearly. And the OTP

7 asked me about what happened after -- afterwards only later.

8 Q. That is your explanation. But am I correct in saying that it was

9 indeed the first time you mentioned that and that it appeared in the

10 statement, because in your statement of 1995, and in the Dokmanovic case,

11 it never appeared? You never mentioned Velepromet and the incident in

12 relation to the two people.

13 A. I wanted to provide a statement as regards Velepromet, but the

14 investigator was not interested in the sequence of events afterwards.

15 Hence, it was for the first time in Belgrade that I gave an official

16 statement concerning Velepromet to anyone, be it investigators or a court.

17 And this is the first time I spoke about the two people who saved me.

18 Q. That's precisely what I said. It was the first time you

19 officially spoke about what happened at Velepromet and in that house after

20 you were rescued by the two people?

21 A. If we disregard my statement to the Croatian Security Service,

22 yes, then before the Belgrade tribunal, that was the first time I

23 mentioned officially Kinez and Mare.

24 Q. A minute ago you said that you didn't know whether the Belgrade

25 trial considered the group paramilitary or anything else, but you, I

Page 6418

1 believe, were able to make your own conclusions as to whether there were

2 any active JNA officers amongst the group or whether there were what you

3 called members of the TO or Chetniks or something else, as regards the

4 people who were tried in Belgrade, if you can answer that.

5 A. Could you please repeat your question? I didn't understand.

6 Q. A minute ago, replying to one of my questions, you said that you

7 didn't know whether they belonged to the paramilitaries, as regards the

8 two people that you testified in favour of. But I'm asking about the

9 entire group, whether you know whether there were any JNA officers among

10 the group or whether those were exclusively people from some other, be it

11 paramilitary or Chetnik or TO, formations?

12 A. I don't know who they belonged to. I wasn't interested in the

13 Belgrade trial up until the moment when I was supposed to appear there as

14 a witness for those two people, if my answer suffices.

15 Q. I believe you reiterated what I stated in my question, and that is

16 that during a hearing in Belgrade -- I will put this question yet again.

17 Your comment, as regards the Belgrade trial, and I believe you

18 still abide by it, that luckily Ljuboja was acquitted but unfortunately

19 Kinez received a maximum sentence of 20 years?

20 A. Yes, and I stick to that opinion.

21 Q. The differences between your statement and your testimony

22 yesterday and today as regards the role of certain JNA soldiers, does it

23 have anything to do with the Belgrade proceedings? Because other people

24 were tried there, and here we have JNA officers being tried and that in

25 Belgrade perhaps you tried to minimise the guilt of the people who were

Page 6419

1 charged there, and yet you are trying to increase the responsibility of

2 people being tried here?

3 A. I believe your question to be a very unfair one. Those two people

4 saved my life. I have six children today. I am alive, thanks to them,

5 and that's why I went to Belgrade to testify. I would be very happy if

6 these three people here were proven not guilty, and I do not look at the

7 incidents in regards -- or pertaining to individual people, but I simply

8 see that as being one big tragic situation.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Karlovic, I hope I was being fair in my questions.

10 A. Thank you as well.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Domazet.

12 Mr. Borovic.

13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Borovic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Karlovic. I am Borivoje

16 Borovic, attorney-at-law.

17 A. Good afternoon.

18 Q. Which rank did you have in the Croatian army before you retired?

19 A. Captain.

20 Q. Yesterday you said that you were a Croatian army soldier in 1991.

21 My question is: Was this an organised army in terms of uniforms, weapons,

22 command, and so on?

23 A. From my point of view, I can say that it was.

24 Q. Thank you. Members of the ZNG, were they Croatian army component,

25 or was that special formation or was that part of the Croatian army?

Page 6420

1 A. I don't know how to respond to that question. I don't know where

2 National Guards units belonged to, whether they were part of the MUP. I

3 don't know whether the military command had already been set up or not. I

4 don't know.

5 Q. Does that mean that you have information that they did not belong

6 to the official Croatian army that you are talking about?

7 A. I answered that I don't know. I can't say either way, because I

8 don't know.

9 Q. Thank you. When you came to Vukovar, were all Croatian army

10 members armed and did they all have uniforms?

11 A. As far as I can recall, they all did.

12 Q. Thank you. Did you see combined units of the ZNG and the Croatian

13 army out in the field? Was that how it was?

14 A. You must understand that, as far as I'm concerned, ZNG was the

15 Croatian army at the time.

16 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that we agree that the members of

17 the ZNG, as a part of the Croatian army, were all armed, and if they were

18 armed, what sort of weapons did they have?

19 A. I already said that we had infantry weapons and I described the

20 type. We also had rocket launchers and we also had our hand-grenades.

21 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that members of the ZNG in your units

22 had similar types of weapons and were they all issued with such weapons?

23 A. Yes, as far as I can recall, that is so.

24 Q. Do you know that in the course of 1991 Yugoslav army barracks were

25 blockaded? Are you aware of that fact?

Page 6421

1 A. Yes, I am.

2 Q. Who blockaded those barracks, and what do you know about that?

3 A. I don't know anything about that. I wasn't near any barracks.

4 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the barracks after the blockade

5 were accessible to members of the Croatian forces and members of the JNA

6 were moved out of those barracks? Are you aware of that?

7 A. No, I'm not aware of that. I really cannot talk about that

8 because --

9 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of the fact -- or, rather, my question

10 is: Did you know that the Vukovar barracks was also blockaded in the same

11 way that the other barracks in Croatia were blockaded?

12 A. No, I -- I'm not aware of that fact.

13 Q. Yesterday you said that you took part in Flash and Storm

14 operations; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. During that operation were not more than 300.000 civilians, Serbs

17 from Croatia, expelled? Did you hear about that?

18 A. I do not want to respond to that question.

19 Q. Thank you. You said that you belonged to the 1st Brigade,

20 4th Battalion, 3rd Company; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That brigade, was it in Zagreb or Vukovar?

23 A. The command was in Zagreb.

24 Q. What about -- and the members of the brigade were in Vukovar?

25 A. They were in different places, not only in Vukovar. But a part

Page 6422

1 were in Vukovar.

2 Q. Have you heard of the 204th Brigade?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you please tell us what you know about that brigade?

5 A. I don't know anything. I know it's the 204th Brigade and that

6 it's from Vukovar. As for who commanded it or what it did, I -- I really

7 don't know. I know very little about that.

8 Q. Thank you. When you arrived at Vukovar, did you see volunteers

9 from other towns there? I think you mentioned that?

10 A. Yes, there were some.

11 Q. From which cities?

12 A. I've already mentioned some. Perhaps not all of them, but they

13 were volunteers from Zagreb, Varazdin, Cakovec, Vinkovci, Osijek. All of

14 those places.

15 Q. Thank you. Were all those volunteers also in uniform and armed?

16 A. I didn't see all of them, so I don't know.

17 Q. The ones that you did see though?

18 A. Yes. They were similarly dressed and equipped, as we were.

19 Q. Thank you. You described --

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Actually, could we see Exhibit 156

21 on the screen now, please?

22 I'm going to show you now a map that you already looked at.

23 Could you please zoom in a little bit? Thank you.

24 Q. Question for the witness: Could the usher please help you and

25 could you please take the red pen and draw a line indicating the direction

Page 6423

1 from which you arrived at Vukovar, which you moved in and where you ended

2 up?

3 A. I know that from Bogdanovci we came to Luzac. I'm going to draw

4 an arrow. I don't know which roads we used. I know we went through

5 fields, through cornfields, so I really cannot draw the exact route that

6 we took.

7 Q. But just indicate where you ended up.

8 A. From Luzac, and then we ended up at the silo, which I already

9 talked about.

10 Q. Could you please indicate that?

11 A. [Marks].

12 Q. Thank you very much.

13 Could we -- I would like to tender this as an exhibit, Your

14 Honour. And we can indicate Bogdanovci with the letter A, and your -- the

15 point where you ended up, or your destination, could we mark that with the

16 letter B?

17 A. [Marks].

18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Now, Your Honours, could we please

19 have this tendered as an exhibit?

20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 296.

22 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Q. Next question: Did you go from point A to point B without any

24 armed conflict?

25 A. Yes, I've already said that. That's what we did.

Page 6424

1 Q. Thank you.

2 Can we now look at the same map again, Exhibit 156? Without the

3 markings, of course. Thank you.

4 And you can see the map now. Could you please take the pen again?

5 Can you mark with the number 1 the position where the silo was? And can

6 you please also place a cross next to the number?

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. Thank you. Could you please indicate Pionirska Street again,

9 which is what you did yesterday?

10 A. Well, I'm not sure exactly where it was, but I can indicate the

11 general area, like I said yesterday.

12 Q. Can you please place the number 2 next to that spot and put a

13 circle around the number 2.

14 A. [Marks].

15 Q. Thank you. Also in the statement you provided to the Prosecutor

16 on the 7th of September, 1995, on page 2, paragraph 9; English version,

17 page 2, paragraph 9. I'm going to give you the statements if you ask for

18 them and if you disagree that that's what is stated in the statement. But

19 you stated that you occasionally went to help out at certain positions; is

20 that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you kindly indicate the positions that you went to? Can you

23 also mark them with lines whenever it was that you went to help out units

24 that were out in the field?

25 A. Well, I don't know, because I never went to such places.

Page 6425

1 Q. You didn't go. All right. You said yesterday that you went to

2 the hospital on a number of occasions before you ended up there,

3 ultimately. On the way to the hospital, and as you were going to the

4 Pionirska Ulica position, can you indicate other positions where the

5 Croatian forces were?

6 A. There is no way I can orient myself and mark these positions at

7 this point in time.

8 Q. What about the MUP forces?

9 A. The same thing there.

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think yesterday we

11 admitted as an exhibit something similar. If not, then could we tender

12 this into evidence? I think that the Prosecutor asked something similar.

13 I am just leaving it up to you, Your Honours, to see whether this

14 can be admitted again as an exhibit or not.

15 JUDGE PARKER: We are checking back, Mr. Borovic.

16 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I think that it was, Your Honour.

17 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, if I can assist, similar markings were

18 made to a similar Prosecution exhibit yesterday, but we have no objection

19 of it being tendered again.

20 JUDGE PARKER: We will have it twice, Mr. Borovic. This will be

21 received.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 297.

23 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Q. We will go back to position number 1 where the silo was. My

25 question is: Did you have a sniper's nest at the silo?

Page 6426

1 A. No.

2 Q. Thank you. You said that there were ammunition depots at the

3 silo?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What kind of weapons were stored there?

6 A. I know we had infantry weapons and ammunition stored there. And

7 as far as I can remember, we had smaller calibre mortars of 60

8 millimetres. That's all I can remember. Perhaps there were other

9 weapons, but this is all I can remember.

10 Q. Thank you. Were -- did members of other units come to be issued

11 with weapons from your silo?

12 A. Yes, that is correct. We were not issuing the weapons. We had

13 nothing to do with that.

14 Q. Thank you. You, as a member of the military, are you making an

15 assessment that there, by the silo, had the status of a military facility?

16 A. I've already said that, the silo had strategic importance.

17 Nobody's disputing that.

18 Q. Thank you. When you described your positions towards the Danube

19 river, when you said there was no infantry fighting, as you described it,

20 and when you said that artillery was firing from the other side, what was

21 your assignment at that point in time, until the infantry fighting or

22 combat? What were you doing?

23 A. We were just observing and monitoring the Danube.

24 Q. Thank you. At the time when there were combat lines or defence

25 lines, as you term it, in Vukovar, the ones that you drew and you don't

Page 6427

1 know where these other lines were, across from that, across from the

2 Danube there was the army, or there were soldiers.

3 My question is: In the centre of Vukovar, or within the lines of

4 defence of the Croatian forces, were there any Serb forces? So behind or

5 within the Croatian army defence lines, were there any Serb soldiers

6 there?

7 A. I don't know. I can even say that I don't really understand

8 exactly what you're asking me.

9 Q. Well, I'll try to clarify that. You had Vukovar defence lines.

10 Was there any Serb military within those lines, not part of the ZNG or

11 anything, but as members of a force with which you were in conflict?

12 A. I've already said who we were in conflict with, who we were

13 fighting against. I don't know whether, at the time of the defence of the

14 town, such units had infiltrated the lines or were inside of town. I

15 don't know that.

16 Q. Thank you. So there were no military activities by Serb forces

17 within your lines in Vukovar?

18 A. I said I didn't know. I couldn't be everywhere in Vukovar, you

19 understand.

20 Q. Besides the Croatian population, was there any Serb population

21 intermingled there behind the lines of defence in Vukovar, the area that

22 you covered?

23 A. I really don't know. I really -- I think that there were. I

24 mean, I couldn't be sure about it, but I know that there were Serbs and

25 Croats within -- or as part of that population.

Page 6428

1 Q. According to your information, could Serb civilians leave Vukovar,

2 passing through your lines? Was that possible or not?

3 A. I don't have information about that, no.

4 Q. You said that you had hand-held launchers which were disposable?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Once you use hand-held launcher, where were you issued with

7 another one?

8 A. We were not issued with another one.

9 Q. Thank you. What happened, you would fire one shell, and that was

10 the end of the war?

11 A. Well, you responded to that question yourself. I don't know what

12 to answer. I don't know how to behave or what to say to that question.

13 It's not the end of the war, but we ran out of shells.

14 Q. Thank you. On page 10, line 8 -- could the usher please give you

15 all of your statements, and if you disagree with something you will easily

16 find it. You have statements here in the Dokmanovic case, the Ovcara

17 case, and also your statements you gave to the Prosecutor in The Hague.

18 On page 10, line 8 of the Belgrade trial you said, on the 13th of

19 September, 2002, you said the following: That you held some sort of

20 positions around the hospital. This is in Croatia. Is this correct?

21 A. All right.

22 Q. Do you confirm that answer?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. How many of you held these lines around the hospital?

25 How many soldiers were there altogether?

Page 6429

1 A. Perhaps seven or eight people in the group of mine.

2 Q. Thank you. What are those positions around the hospital? Can you

3 describe them in more detail because we weren't there?

4 A. I've already said that we were withdrawing towards the centre of

5 the town, and before we completely fell apart we were there at those lines

6 which were close to the hospital.

7 Q. How far from the hospital?

8 A. About 100 metres.

9 Q. What sort of weapons did you use to guard the positions around the

10 hospital? Did you also have automatic rifles and mortar shells?

11 A. First of all, I would like to correct you. We're not talking

12 about mortar shells. We are only had rifles.

13 Q. Did you have Zoljas?

14 A. No, we didn't have any Zoljas.

15 Q. Not you, but the others.

16 A. I don't know. I really can't remember. I have no idea.

17 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that the others had Zoljas and

18 hand-grenades?

19 A. Well, it would be all right to allow for the possibility. Perhaps

20 they did have them and perhaps they didn't. I simply don't know.

21 Q. Also on page 10, lines 8 to 11, you said that an ultimatum was

22 issued, that not a single bullet could any longer be fired from the

23 hospital compound?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who issued that order?

Page 6430

1 A. It doesn't state in these statements that I had gone to see a

2 couple of -- my men who were wounded, so I had information from them. I

3 no longer had any superiors. We were no longer organised in our

4 resistance. So I learned this information from the hospital. I found out

5 this information from the hospital, the information you are talking about,

6 and then I said that in my statement.

7 Q. Thank you. Who issued the ultimatum to the hospital, to the

8 people there, saying that not a single bullet should -- could be fired

9 from the hospital?

10 A. I don't know about that.

11 Q. But you heard that such an ultimatum existed and that after that

12 no other ammunition was fired from the hospital perimeter?

13 A. Not from the hospital.

14 Q. That's what it says here.

15 A. You are saying about no bullets being fired from the hospital.

16 Q. Well, that's what it says there.

17 A. It's not from the hospital. It's from the direction of the

18 hospital.

19 Q. Just a minute, please. I'm being very patient. I read this out

20 slowly. You mentioned positions yourself, positions around the hospital.

21 And then further on you said that there was an ultimatum stating that not

22 a single bullet could be fired from the perimeter of the hospital.

23 Perimeter could not be 200 metres.

24 A. Well, perhaps I wasn't fully precise when stating that. When I

25 said "perimeter," I meant the positions where we were. We were not to

Page 6431

1 fire from that area any longer.

2 Q. Why not?

3 A. Because there was an ultimatum stating that the hospital would be

4 attacked by air-raids dropping napalm bombs that would kill everybody.

5 Q. If you fired from the hospital perimeter?

6 A. From the hospital direction.

7 Q. Thank you. Do you know who Harlan von Bassinger is? Did you hear

8 that name?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you tell the Court who he is?

11 A. This is a man who was from Zagreb who had come with me to Vukovar.

12 He was wounded in Vukovar, and as far as I know, he is listed as missing

13 to this day.

14 Q. Andreas Lehpamer?

15 A. I think that this man lives to -- in Samobor to this day. He was

16 born there, grew up in Samobor. He was wounded gravely. He had also come

17 there with me.

18 Q. Were there foreign nationals in your units of what you called

19 Croatian army and, if so, what do you know about that?

20 A. In my unit, we did not have a single foreign national. I must

21 add, though, that Harlan von Bassinger is not the real name of this

22 person.

23 Q. Well, I'm discussing foreign nationals in general. Do you know

24 whether there were any foreign nationals in the Croatian army?

25 A. I think that there were, but none in my unit.

Page 6432

1 Q. Thank you. You changed your uniform and discarded your weapon

2 where?

3 A. In a house near the hospital.

4 Q. How far from the hospital?

5 A. 150 to 200 metres.

6 Q. Thank you. Mr. Domazet asked you something similar about changing

7 your uniform. This has to do with your statement given to the OTP,

8 page 3, paragraph 3. He put it to you that all others were told to take

9 off military uniforms and put on civilian clothes. This was at the

10 hospital. How many soldiers there were, those who had been ordered to

11 change their uniforms and leave their weapons?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Do you know -- or did you see who gave them civilian clothes?

14 A. No, I didn't see that.

15 Q. Yesterday you said something similar to what you said in your OTP

16 statement, namely, that you left the barracks either 2.00 or 3.00 p.m.; is

17 that right?

18 A. Something like that.

19 Q. You also said that the beating at Ovcara lasted from 3.00

20 until 6.00 p.m. Is that possible?

21 A. Yes, it's possible that I said that.

22 Q. Thank you. How late was it approximately when you came to

23 Modateks after Ovcara?

24 A. Well, I oriented myself on the amount of light. That's how I

25 concluded that it was about 5.30 when we left Ovcara, but -- because it

Page 6433

1 was beginning to get dark.

2 Q. So when did you then leave Ovcara?

3 A. I don't know. Could have been 8.00 or 7.00. It's hard to

4 pin-point time. These are all just rough assessment.

5 Q. Yes. And you are being quite fair about it. You also said that

6 leading the column of buses was a vehicle called Pinzgauer?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. As a soldier, can you describe this vehicle to us? Can you

9 describe it in greater detail? What did it look like? You said that it

10 was an all-terrain vehicle. What else can you tell us about it?

11 A. I don't know how else to describe it to you, its features. Are

12 you interested in the power of its motor? It's an all-terrain vehicle

13 used for communication, for medical purposes, for personnel

14 transportation.

15 Q. Does it have benches on both sides in the back to transport

16 soldiers?

17 A. Well, military people know that it can be customised to your

18 needs. It can have benches, it can have something else.

19 Q. How many people can it carry?

20 A. At least six.

21 Q. How about 10?

22 A. No, impossible. I don't think it can carry 10. Maybe if they are

23 crunched inside.

24 Q. I think they can carry 10 people, because I was in that vehicle

25 myself. Was it vehicle -- was that vehicle covered in the back?

Page 6434

1 A. I don't remember. I don't even know how many people were inside.

2 Q. All right. This vehicle is bigger than a jeep, right? Pinzgauer

3 is bigger than a jeep?

4 A. Perhaps a bit. It's not as big inside, but it is big.

5 Q. You, as a military expert, somebody who had training, would be

6 able to confirm that it's bigger than a Campagnola?

7 A. I don't know what a Campagnola is.

8 Q. Is it bigger?

9 A. I have no idea what a Campagnola is.

10 Q. Okay. That's fine. You claim that it was a Pinzgauer, so let's

11 leave it at that. Is that right?

12 A. Yes, I remember that vehicle.

13 Q. In the Dokmanovic case, you stated as follows: "When we arrived

14 there," and you are referring to Ovcara, "I saw JNA soldiers and Chetniks,

15 the same ones who had been in the barracks."

16 Is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Since you came out from the fourth bus and you told us who was

19 there in front of the hangar, in your view. So please tell us this: The

20 persons whom you noticed in the barracks, was Stuka also there, the person

21 whom you later saw at Ovcara?

22 A. I don't remember Stuka from the barracks. I only remember him

23 from the barracks [as interpreted].

24 Q. All right. The statement that you gave to the OTP here in

25 The Hague, on page 4, last paragraph, on page 4. English version, page 5,

Page 6435

1 paragraph 4.

2 Have you found this last paragraph? The one that was marked. I

3 marked it to make it easier for you.

4 You said this: As you were waiting to go through the gauntlet,

5 and several groups had gone through the gauntlet before you, a soldier

6 approached you asking you where you were from.

7 Is that what it says there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. My question: Did this soldier address anyone else but you?

10 A. I don't remember that. I don't remember that detail. Perhaps he

11 did, perhaps he didn't.

12 Q. All right. Your friend Kemo, do you know how long he had lived in

13 Ruma?

14 A. I know that he had lived there forever. That was his nickname.

15 Q. When was the last time you saw him?

16 A. Probably when we worked together. Before the war in 1989, or

17 perhaps 1990.

18 Q. Thank you. And you never saw him afterwards; is that right?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Fine. What did you and Kemo do before the war? What did you

21 trade in?

22 A. Well, if you have time, I can explain that. I lived in a family

23 that was quite poor.

24 Q. What did you trade with?

25 A. We traded the goods from Istanbul. We used to buy goods there

Page 6436

1 quite cheaply and then bring them back home and then resell them.

2 Q. All right. How much time elapsed from when you left your bus

3 until you entered the gauntlet?

4 A. I can't remember. I can only give you an estimate. I believe it

5 was around 15 minutes.

6 Q. Fine. Thank you. And during that time you observed what was

7 going on in front of you; is that right?

8 A. Yes, to the extent that I was able to observe.

9 Q. All right. Mr. Domazet asked you whether in addition to the

10 people who were in the gauntlet there were other people and how many, and

11 you gave a different answer from the one you gave in Belgrade at the trial

12 there.

13 A. Well, listen, when it comes to figures, these estimates can differ

14 because these are just estimates, and I'm not rehearsing it in advance in

15 order to give the same figures every time.

16 Q. All right. If we put aside the people who are in the gauntlet,

17 and if we assume that you are observing what's going on in front of you

18 between the bus and the hangar, in that area between where you stood and

19 the gauntlet, or where the entrance in the hangar was, were there a

20 hundred people, 50 people, or could there have been 500, 600, 700 people?

21 A. Where? Which people?

22 Q. All of the people who stood there between you and the gauntlet.

23 A. Well, there's no way there could have been five or 600. Once

24 again, this is my assessment.

25 Q. And there could not have been 1.000 people there either; is that

Page 6437

1 right?

2 A. Well, logically if I say that there were not 500 people there,

3 then there could not have been 1.000 either.

4 Q. In Belgrade at the trial you said that you knew somebody called

5 Mujidza. Who is Mujidza?

6 A. Well, that's precisely the nickname I could not remember

7 yesterday. The nickname is Mujidza, or Mujidzon.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear what the witness

9 said.

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Where?

12 A. There. Actually, they were together practically the whole time

13 while Stuka talked to me, and then they took us to Velepromet together.

14 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the interpreters

15 didn't hear the last bit of the witness's answer, so could I ask him to

16 repeat it?

17 Q. Where did you see this person called Mujidza.

18 A. I saw him at Ovcara with Stuka.

19 Q. Where?

20 A. Both in the gauntlet and later. He used to guard us together with

21 Stuka.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we put

24 Exhibit 256 on the screen. Page 22, please. Thank you.

25 Q. Would you please take the pen, and can the usher please assist the

Page 6438

1 witness?

2 Witness, would you please draw the lines depicting where the buses

3 stood in relation to the hangar?

4 A. You want me to draw the lines?

5 Q. Yes. The lines showing where buses number 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 stood.

6 A. [Marks].

7 Q. Thank you. Now, would you please put number 1 at the end of those

8 lines and circle it, after the fifth line. Would you please do that?

9 A. [Marks].

10 Q. Thank you. Now, please, indicate with a cross the place where you

11 saw Stuka for the first time.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. Could you put number 2 there and circle it?

14 A. [Marks].

15 Q. Just put number 2 outside of the circle. Thank you.

16 A. [Marks].

17 Q. And can you circle number 2?

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. Thank you. Now, please, indicate with number 3 the location where

20 Stuka guarded you.

21 A. [Marks].

22 Q. Put a cross there, and then number 3 next to it and circle it?

23 A. [Marks]. This pen is not quite accurate.

24 Q. When you left the bus for the first time, where was your bus? Is

25 it where you drew the fourth line, is that where your bus was?

Page 6439

1 A. As far as I remember, the bus drove closer, a bit closer, because

2 later on the buses left down the road.

3 Q. All right. From the fourth bus to the spot where you saw Stuka

4 for the first time, did you get there when walking in a column, or how?

5 A. Well, for a while we actually stood there. It seems to me that

6 the bus before us and our bus unloaded together, at the same time.

7 Q. All right. Thank you.

8 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this be admitted

9 into evidence before we lose it from the screen and then I'll put my next

10 question.

11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 298.

13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Can you tell us, from your bus, that was the fourth bus shown here

15 with line number 4, from there to the entrance into the hangar, what's the

16 distance?

17 A. From the fourth bus; is that right?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. 70 to 100 metres.

20 Q. Thank you. From the place where the fourth bus was to where Stuka

21 was, you could see only him and the soldiers as you approached that place?

22 A. Can you ask that again?

23 Q. Well, tell us, what did you see once you left the fourth bus?

24 A. I've already described that. I could see the hangar entrance, I

25 could see soldiers standing behind the buses next to the road. And then

Page 6440

1 when I stood in front of the hangar, I saw the same soldiers again,

2 standing on the other side of the road.

3 Q. All right. Thank you. Does this mean that once you left the bus

4 you saw the soldiers and Stuka there in the same place where you later

5 talked?

6 A. No, no, no. Stuka came, he wasn't there. He wasn't waiting

7 there. He came. They talked among themselves and to those who stood next

8 to the bus, and then he came to the place where I was.

9 Q. All right. Thank you. From this part where you were, once you

10 left the fourth bus, were you able to see Stuka in the gauntlet beating

11 people or not?

12 A. No, I didn't see him, and I never said I did.

13 Q. When you went into the gauntlet after this conversation, my

14 question is: Did Stuka follow you and did he enter the gauntlet and beat

15 you with the rest of them or not?

16 A. I don't remember that. I think that he stayed behind me. He

17 didn't go through the gauntlet together with me.

18 Q. Thank you. You said that when you were taken out after that, when

19 you were taken out of the hangar and you described it all, I don't want to

20 take you back through all of that. That throughout that time, and at

21 least an hour, Stuka was outside with you who was guarding you. Is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did any one of the military personnel come during that period and

25 issue orders to Stuka that he was to go somewhere else or not?

Page 6441

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. But when you say he was there the whole time, does that mean that

3 he did not go to do some other duties during that hour?

4 A. I don't remember that he went to other assignments. He could have

5 moved away a couple of metres from us, he entered the hangar and came out.

6 It wasn't only him who was there. And he wasn't with us the whole time.

7 Q. Thank you. You also said when you were asked by the Defence about

8 Modateks that Stuka said already at the barracks that you would be taken

9 to a place where you could easily go to Croatia.

10 The question is: Was it your impression that this was a fact that

11 was known to him already at Ovcara?

12 A. I didn't. I didn't even think about that. I just hoped that he

13 was right.

14 Q. And later when you were already at Velepromet did you know that

15 people were already going to Zagreb? I think you talk about -- talked

16 about that yesterday. And that led you to the conclusion that he did send

17 you to the right place after all?

18 A. Well, yes, I can agree with you. It's possible that it was like

19 that.

20 Q. Today do you know the name of Ilija or Stuka? Is that his real

21 name?

22 A. That is my main problem, because at the time when he told me that

23 his name was Stuka, I asked him, "What is your real name." He said Ilija.

24 Later I found out that Stuka is actually a person with another name. I

25 don't know exactly what the story is.

Page 6442

1 Q. Thank you. On page 6, paragraph 4 of the statement you gave here

2 to the Prosecutor, English version page 6, paragraph 8, you said when you

3 left Ovcara towards Velepromet out of the six of you in the van you only

4 remembered the name -- or you only remembered Berghofer. Do you agree

5 that that is what is stated in your statement?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When did you find out who the others were, and did you find out

8 who the others were by the time you got to Velepromet?

9 A. I have learned about it gradually. I already knew some people.

10 For example, Perkovic, who was with us, I knew him because he was brought

11 out after his name was called out. The others I found out about later.

12 Even about Berghofer I found out later. I didn't know about him at the

13 time.

14 Q. Did you learn about Berghofer in Zagreb?

15 A. Yes, it's possible.

16 Q. Thank you. If your memory serves you well, would you be able to

17 describe where each person sat in this vehicle in which you left Ovcara to

18 go to Modateks -- actually, you left in the direction of Velepromet.

19 Where was Stuka, where was he sitting?

20 A. I can't remember that. I know that someone was sitting out in the

21 front with the driver, but I don't know whether it was him or somebody

22 else.

23 Q. Thank you. Did Stuka have a weapon in that vehicle? Do you

24 remember that? Did he bring a weapon with him?

25 A. I know that he had one the whole time. As to whether he had one

Page 6443

1 in the vehicle or not, that's a little bit hazy, that part in the vehicle.

2 Q. Thank you. In response to my learned colleague Domazet's question

3 saying that you had to go back, you said that you didn't know, but you

4 said that they went back to Ovcara; is that correct?

5 Three soldiers were in uniform, only Stuka was not in uniform; is

6 that correct?

7 Of those people who were returning, actually who were leaving

8 Modateks; is that correct?

9 A. Stuka was only different because he had this jacket. That's why I

10 remembered him. Because he had this distinctive spitfire jacket.

11 Q. Did he have yellow Borovo boots on his feet?

12 A. Perhaps he did, and perhaps he didn't. I don't really remember it

13 any longer.

14 Q. When, and you said this in your statement, he suggested that you

15 swap your yellow Borovo boots, and then you said that he gave you a jacket

16 and boots, did he maybe take your boots?

17 A. I don't know, perhaps he did and perhaps he didn't. I really

18 don't remember that anymore.

19 Q. Thank you. How did you find out that people were called Belgija,

20 Cedo? Did they introduce themselves or how did you find that out?

21 A. Well, as far as I can remember, Belgija introduced himself to me;

22 and as for Cedo, I knew that he was being called that nickname.

23 Q. How did you find out about these others, Kinez and Mare? How did

24 you find out their names? Did you find that out at the time or 14 years

25 later?

Page 6444

1 A. No, I found out at the time. I mean, we communicated in a normal

2 way. They talked to me.

3 Q. Thank you very much. When you were describing Kinez at the

4 Belgrade Ovcara trial on the 13th of September, 2005, you said on page 7

5 that he had a camouflage uniform, that's what you said, that he had a blue

6 beret with a red star on it, with a red pointed star. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In the case in which you testified, or actually in the statement

9 you gave to the Prosecution here in The Hague on page 5, paragraph 2, you

10 said that at Ovcara a captain entered together with Stuka, about whom you

11 said that he had a camouflage uniform and a five-pointed red star on his

12 cap. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can we agree that this coincidence is very interesting, that twice

15 you were saved by a person in different places dressed in a practically

16 exactly the same way. And is it the same person?

17 A. If you read it carefully, and if it was written down properly,

18 what I said was --

19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on page 64, line 3, it

20 should say "blue beret," and it says "cap" here. And it's a significant

21 difference, so can we correct that in the transcript? And I would like to

22 thank the interpreters.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something?

24 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Well, I wasn't following what you said, so you have to start from

Page 6445

1 the beginning.

2 A. It doesn't matter. What I said was something distinctive. The

3 person in the uniform had a moustache. I don't know whether I mentioned

4 that before or not, but this is a fact.

5 Q. Very well. Did you meet anybody in Ovcara in a camouflage

6 uniform, a blue beret and a five-pointed red star?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. Did you meet such a person at Velepromet other than Kinez?

9 A. I don't think that I did. I don't remember.

10 Q. Did you meet a person in Mitrovica who was dressed like this or

11 not?

12 A. I cannot remember.

13 Q. Well, when you are mentioning the moustache, and this is something

14 that you mentioned for the first time yesterday, there is no statement,

15 and you have three in front of you, where you were describing the captain,

16 you did not say in any of them that this person had a moustache until

17 yesterday. I can read all the statements out to you. You said that he

18 had a dark complexion, but the moustache you mentioned yesterday for the

19 first time.

20 A. I can agree with you that perhaps I didn't mention the moustache.

21 Perhaps this wasn't record, but here, before this Trial Chamber and under

22 oath, I stand by the statement that the person who was with Stuka, who was

23 the captain, who told me to step aside, had a moustache.

24 Q. And he was 35 to 40 years old. Is that your estimate?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 6446

1 Q. So who actually released you from the hangar? Was it the person

2 in the blue beret, or Stuka? What do you think? What is your assessment?

3 A. I was released by Stuka, and also for sure that man with the blue

4 beret. God also has a considerable part in my release with the other

5 people and in my being saved.

6 Q. Well, I'm glad to hear of that. Did you ever look for Stuka after

7 Ovcara, since you knew the street where he lived, and the name of the

8 street is -- actually, could you please remind me what the name is?

9 A. I said that I think that my friend lived in a street named

10 Partizanskih Odreda Street.

11 Q. Very well. And since Stuka specified where he lived, in 15 years

12 did you try to find such a key person or not?

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6447

1 (redacted)

2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] For the witness and for the

3 Prosecution, I have in front of me two documents. I would like one of the

4 documents to be shown an the screen. This is document 2D08-0043. This is

5 the B/C/S version. The English version bears the number 2D08-0047. It's

6 a document that was discovered by the Prosecution.

7 Could we look at page 1 of the document, please? Thank you. Can

8 you zoom -- or are you scroll down a little bit? Thank you. Actually,

9 can we look at the bottom now?

10 Q. Actually, do you see the document?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you see that it says in the signature a Senior Brigadier

13 Markica Rebic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. My question is: Do you know who Markica Rebic is? Have you heard

16 of him?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What can you tell us about him?

19 A. Nothing more than what you know about him. I know that he is a

20 senior officer of the Croatian army. I didn't even know that he was a

21 deputy minister. I didn't know that he worked in the information service.

22 Q. You gave a statement probably to the Croatian army information

23 service; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. That service, which is part of this ministry, and it says in the

Page 6448

1 letterhead that it's the defence ministry, Zagreb?

2 A. Yes, yes, correct.

3 Q. Could we look at page 2, please, of this same document.

4 Can we zoom in on the document, please?

5 At the top it said Ministry of Defence, Zagreb; is that correct?

6 Can you please read what it says? If you can, could you please read this?

7 A. "Republic of Croatia, Ministry of Defence, Zagreb, Security and

8 Information Service Administration."

9 Q. Very well. So that we don't have to go into closed session now,

10 it mentions the case and other names.

11 Could we please scroll down?

12 Do you see the names from the fifth line from the bottom that are

13 mentioned there? Next to your name, do you see your name, Vilim Karlovic?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we go into

16 semi-private session so that I don't improvise when I'm showing this

17 document? Perhaps it will be easier if we go into private session.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6449











11 Page 6449 redacted. Private session.















Page 6450

1 [Open session]

2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Thank you. So you spent two days giving an interview to the

4 employees of the defence ministry before you came to testify in The Hague;

5 is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you sign that statement at the end?

8 A. I don't remember. Most likely I did.

9 Q. Thank you. After you gave this statement did you, upon arriving

10 here, sleep in the same hotel as other witnesses whose names I'm not going

11 to mention?

12 A. I think so.

13 Q. Did you stay in that hotel throughout your stay here while giving

14 testimony?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who was the first to testify? No, I apologise. After the first

17 person completed testimony, did that person return to the hotel?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 Q. Did you contact the other witnesses? Did you agree in advance who

20 was going say what?

21 A. That's ridiculous. Each person has his or her own story. What

22 was I supposed to agree on with Dr. Vesna Bosanac?

23 Q. After one of the witnesses came to The Hague to testify and then

24 returned back to Amsterdam, were you then spending time together?

25 A. I think so.

Page 6451

1 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I think that it's time for our

2 break, but before we break, could we see document 2D08-0051 on the screen,

3 please? We also have the English version, 2D08-0073.

4 Q. Do you see the document? Do you see the document?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Prosecution

7 disclosed one page of this document to us. Since this is a part of the

8 entire document under Roman V, I would like to read out what it says here.

9 It says under paragraph Roman V of this document, the title, "Preparing

10 the witness to testify before the International Criminal Court." And then

11 it says that this service took part in preparing the witness to testify in

12 order to confirm the indictment against Mrksic, Radic, Sljivancanin, as

13 well as in the trial against Dokmanovic. And then in parentheses, there

14 is your name, and then Witness Berghofer and (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] All right. The page I'm putting to

21 the witness is under 2D08-0064. English version 2D08-0084.

22 Q. My question is -- I have all of these versions. Is it true that

23 you gave statements to this service concerning your preparation to testify

24 in the cases before The Hague Tribunal?

25 A. I gave my statement, yes.

Page 6452

1 Q. And your statement pertained to what I described?

2 A. This is the first time I'm seeing this. I can confirm that I did

3 have an interview with these persons and I told you so myself.

4 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on this same page,

5 under paragraph 6, it says: "Lacking intelligence support, the service

6 conducted its own analyses and operations and carried out an intelligence

7 break into the International Criminal Court."

8 Q. Since I put all of this to you, and since you agreed that I could

9 be right --

10 A. I can't agree about the last thing.

11 Q. I'm not asking you about that.

12 My question is: During those two days, were you suggested that

13 some information pertaining to the Croatian state security is something

14 that you are not allowed to disclose?

15 A. First of all, nobody suggested anything to me. I was just told

16 that I could tell my truth, and my truth was sufficient for everything

17 that was relevant.

18 Q. All right. In that case, I will not proceed with these questions.

19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would just like to

20 tender this into evidence and then we can conclude with the

21 cross-examination because I see that it's time for the break.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Are you saying you've finished your

23 cross-examination or ...

24 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] If you allow me to have this

25 document tendered into evidence, then yes.

Page 6453

1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document will be marked with

3 number 299 as an exhibit.

4 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I put two documents to

5 the witness, the first one and the second one, and I think that they need

6 to be tendered as two separate documents.

7 JUDGE PARKER: You mean the two languages separately or two

8 distinct documents?

9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] No. Two different documents. I can

10 read them out again. We had the first one on the screen, and then we had

11 the second one. Both of them have the English and the B/C/S version. So

12 numbers 2D08-0047, that's the English version, and the B/C/S is 2D08-0043.

13 That's the B/C/S version and that's the first document.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Can you remind me what was the nature of that

15 document?

16 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these are the

17 documents of the information service of the Croatian defence ministry.

18 The first document speaks of parts of the statements given by these

19 persons. It mentions the names of witnesses who were protected. And then

20 the second document had paragraphs 5 and 6, which I put to the witness. I

21 am waiting to hear your decision pertaining to the first document, and

22 then I will tell you about the second document.

23 JUDGE PARKER: My difficulty is because I thought everything was

24 from the one document. I hadn't realised you were dealing with two

25 different documents. But if they are two different documents, they will

Page 6454

1 both be received.

2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.

3 JUDGE PARKER: And in both languages.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the second document will be marked

5 with number 300 as an exhibit.

6 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic.

8 Now we must break for half an hour, because of the redactions. We

9 will resume at 10 minutes past 6.00.

10 Before we do, Mr. Lukic, will you need more time than will be

11 available to you? Oh, it's Mr. Bulatovic.

12 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I hope that I will

13 be able to comply with your instructions and to conclude with my

14 cross-examination so that we can release the witness and have a break

15 ourselves.

16 JUDGE PARKER: With that smile on your face, I have every faith in

17 you, Mr. Bulatovic.

18 --- Recess taken at 5.40 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 6.13 p.m.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bulatovic.

21 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good

22 afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Bulatovic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon to you, Mr. Karlovic.

25 A. Good afternoon.

Page 6455

1 Q. I am Momcilo Bulatovic, one of the Defence counsel of

2 Mr. Sljivancanin. Let me just give you the same caution that my

3 colleagues gave before me. Both of us speak the same language, so we

4 should try to make pauses.

5 Mr. Karlovic, there is something in your statements which remains

6 unclear to me. When testifying here, and also in your statements, you

7 said that you came to the hospital on the 17th or 18th; is that right?

8 A. It's possible.

9 Q. However, when you testified before the special court in Belgrade,

10 before the war crimes chamber there, you said there that you entered the

11 hospital the night before you were taken to Ovcara, which would mean

12 the 19th?

13 A. It's possible that I said that. Most likely I did say that.

14 Q. Well, that's precisely I want to clarify. When did you enter the

15 hospital? I need to clarify that because of some other matters that I

16 will be asking you about.

17 A. I know that I spent at least two nights at the hospital, maybe

18 even three. It's hard for me to be more specific than that. In my recent

19 statements I focused on the 17th.

20 Q. I fully realise that; that's why I'm asking you. I know it's been

21 many years, and I can certainly understand.

22 In your evidence you said that you saw Mr. Sljivancanin on

23 the 20th in the morning; is that right?

24 A. Yes, the 20th.

25 Q. You saw him in front of the Vukovar Hospital. Please tell me in

Page 6456

1 front of which entrance. Was it the main entrance or the entrance through

2 which you went out?

3 A. The so-called back entrance. I saw him where I was. That's where

4 I saw him.

5 Q. Can you specify the time? I know it's very difficult to give us

6 the accurate time, but roughly.

7 A. I will give you a range. Either it was from 8.30 or 9.00 in the

8 morning until 11.00 or 12.00 in the morning. Somewhere in that period of

9 time.

10 Q. Did you just see him, was it just visual contact, or did you

11 perhaps talk to him?

12 A. No, no. I didn't talk to Mr. Sljivancanin at all.

13 Q. After your visual contact, which lasted for several minutes, did

14 you see what he did next? Did you see whether he went somewhere and, if

15 so, where?

16 A. I remember that Mr. Sljivancanin appeared there briefly. I heard

17 a voice yelling at some lieutenant to the effect, "Come on, hurry up, what

18 are you waiting for?" And then I lifted my head up and saw

19 Mr. Sljivancanin there. He stayed up to one minute, and then he went back

20 to the entrance.

21 Q. Did you see whether he entered the hospital?

22 A. No, I didn't see. I didn't look for that matter either.

23 Q. So from that moment on you never saw Mr. Sljivancanin live again?

24 A. No, I didn't.

25 Q. Now let's focus on how people boarded the buses, the buses that

Page 6457

1 were parked as you explained to us. Was there anyone by the buses issuing

2 orders to you as to how to board buses, or did you do it based on how

3 people reached buses?

4 A. There was a column in front of the hospital and it was specified

5 how many people should board the bus. The JNA soldiers accompanied us to

6 the buses.

7 Q. Does it mean that the selection, if we can call it this way, was

8 based on the number of people that the buses could hold, that no other

9 criteria were used?

10 A. Most likely that's correct, yes.

11 Q. Let us now turn to your arrival at the hospital. Today you said

12 that you had gone to the hospital previously to visit some of your wounded

13 comrades?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I would like to know whether you had any contact with somebody at

16 the hospital, either Dr. Bosanac or Dr. Njavro?

17 A. No, I personally never had any contact with them.

18 Q. Did you have contact with any other doctor at the hospital in

19 order to inquire about the health of your fellow combatants?

20 A. No. No, I had no such contact. All of my combatants were

21 conscious, and I could get any information I needed from them directly.

22 Q. When you came to the hospital, did you see whether there were

23 armed guards at the hospital?

24 A. I can't remember that. You mean inside the hospital?

25 Q. Yes.

Page 6458

1 A. I can't remember that.

2 Q. That day when you came to the hospital, the 17th, the 18th, we

3 don't need to be specific, were there other civilians at the hospital --

4 no, I mean were there civilians at all at the hospital, and did some

5 civilians arrive after you?

6 A. There were civilians, and new ones arrived as well.

7 Q. All right. Can you put a number how many civilians were there on

8 the 20th? On the 20th in the morning, how many civilians were there in

9 the hospital?

10 A. I couldn't give you a number, but there was a great deal of

11 people.

12 Q. Do you know that on the 19th in the evening there was an

13 evacuation of civilians from the Vukovar Hospital organised by the

14 Croatian Red Cross?

15 A. That's the first I hear of it. I never heard of any evacuation of

16 civilians on the 19th.

17 Q. Did you ever hear of a person called Zeljka Zgonjanin?

18 A. Never in my life.

19 Q. You spoke of a group of people that was under your command. It

20 was either a platoon or a detachment. It numbered 10 people. Mr. Borovic

21 asked you about other volunteers from Croatia. I'm now interested in the

22 composition of the group numbering 21 men. Were they from different towns

23 in Croatia or from the same town?

24 A. Let me see if I can remember. Most of them were from Zagreb.

25 Let's say half of the group was from Zagreb. Some people were from

Page 6459

1 Slavonia. I think that these two groups made up the entire group.

2 Q. Can you tell us something about the age of the members of that

3 group? Were they all your peers, were they older than you?

4 A. The only senior members in terms of age were Zeljko Major and

5 Nemec who went missing at Ovcara, and the rest of us were all aged --

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the age range.

7 Q. Mr. Karlovic, let us clarify something else that remains not

8 entirely clear.

9 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on page 78,

10 line 17 -- no, I apologise, 16, the witness said that the age range was

11 similar. They were all born within three to five years.

12 Q. Mr. Karlovic, you mentioned somebody called Tihomir Perkovic; is

13 that right?

14 A. Yes. I need to add something.

15 Q. Please go ahead.

16 A. I told the Prosecutor that I wasn't sure whether his first name

17 was Tihomir. Perkovic is his last name, but I'm not sure about his first

18 name.

19 Q. When Mr. Domazet was examining you, you said that he returned to

20 Vukovar [as interpreted]. He was the leader of the group of 21 that

21 included you.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And there was a Perkovic person at Ovcara as well. Is that the

24 same man?

25 A. No. They only share their last name. And I even believe that

Page 6460

1 their first names were the same as well.

2 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Another intervention for the

3 transcript, page 78, line 5. The question was that Perkovic came back

4 from Vukovar rather than returning to Vukovar, just by way of

5 clarification.

6 Q. Mr. Karlovic, did you hear anything about the surrender of the

7 Mitnica battalion when you were at the hospital?

8 A. No. I heard about it later and I can explain, perhaps.

9 Q. Whilst you were at the Vukovar Hospital did you hear of any

10 attempts to break through by the Vukovar defenders and that a part of it

11 was unsuccessful and that those people ended up at the Vukovar Hospital?

12 A. I don't know anything about that.

13 Q. You said that you came to the Vukovar barracks after about an

14 hour, after you were boarded on the buses next to the hospital?

15 A. Counting from the moment when we started being lined up and

16 separated and boarded on to the buses, in my estimate, it lasted for about

17 an hour.

18 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask

19 for Exhibit 256, photograph number 13, to be shown to the witness.

20 Q. Can you see this photograph?

21 A. Yes, I can.

22 Q. Can you recognise the facility shown?

23 A. Now I know what it is, but I can't remember too many details. The

24 large hangar reminds me of the place where we were on the buses.

25 Q. As regards the hangar, what facility is that a part of? Because

Page 6461

1 we spoke about Ovcara and Velepromet.

2 A. The largest hangar reminds me of the place where we were with the

3 buses.

4 Q. But I'm interested in the location. Where that hangar is. Is

5 this Velepromet or the barracks or Ovcara?

6 A. There is a possibility that this is the Vukovar barracks.

7 Q. I will kindly ask the assistance of the usher to provide a pen for

8 the witness.

9 Since you said that the largest hangar reminds you of the place

10 where the buses were stopped, could you please mark the buses as to how

11 they were stopped when you finally reached the barracks? You can draw the

12 lines the same way you did before.

13 A. [Marks]. This was approximately so.

14 Q. Could you put the letter A next to the lines.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Please mark your bus with the letter B.

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. If we take this to be your bus, could you please mark your

19 approximate position on that bus using a small cross?

20 A. If we are to deal further with this photograph, although I am

21 unsure as to what it shows, I must say that the position of my bus was not

22 exactly this way, as I marked it as being the fourth bus. Also, I can't

23 remember with a degree of certainty that I was on the fourth bus at the

24 barracks, but I do remember when I disembarked at Ovcara I was on the

25 fourth bus. Please take that into account. I don't know how to mark

Page 6462

1 where I was seated, but I was seated behind the driver, next to the

2 window.

3 Q. The front part of the buses, was that in the direction of the

4 arrow?

5 A. The position of my bus was more or less where the third line is,

6 if you understand me. I did put the lines there, but I believe the most

7 accurate reflection would be the middle line.

8 Q. I understand. I believe that colour -- that pen comes in a

9 different colour as well. Perhaps you can use the blue one to mark your

10 position on the bus. I believe it was on the left side, if you were

11 seated behind the driver.

12 A. The pen doesn't put the cross at an exact place where I intended

13 to.

14 Q. I believe this is sufficient. Could you please mark the spot with

15 the letter C.

16 A. [Marks].

17 Q. Thank you. From the place where you were, you commanded the view

18 of the interior part, did you not?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you see the arrival of any other bus?

21 A. I can't remember whether that bus came subsequently or whether it

22 had already been at the barracks. I confused that particular situation.

23 I can mark it in blue where I think the bus was, but as I say, I'm not

24 certain when it arrived.

25 Q. Please mark the position of the bus, and as for whether it was

Page 6463

1 there already or whether it came later, we can discuss that further.

2 A. [Marks]. Well, again, the pen put the mark in a somewhat

3 different place than I intended to.

4 Q. Could you please mark that with the letter D.

5 A. [Marks].

6 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

7 tender this photograph.

8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 301.

10 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. Mr. Karlovic, concerning the place where you were and the bus you

12 saw later, I want to know the following: Did you see anyone being taken

13 off your bus?

14 A. As far as I can recall, it seems to me that no one was taken off

15 my bus.

16 Q. Did you see anyone being taken from any of the other buses?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Which one?

19 A. The bus that was behind us. I saw people being taken off and they

20 passed next to our bus.

21 Q. And they were taken where?

22 A. To the bus I marked with the blue line.

23 Q. Mr. Karlovic, when you went towards Ovcara, did all the buses

24 leave together, including the fifth -- the blue one? Did you see that?

25 If you didn't, please don't speculate.

Page 6464

1 A. I wouldn't want to speculate. I know that our buses left, and

2 that particular bus, I know that he appeared subsequently at Ovcara.

3 Perhaps to clarify: The bus pretty much like the one I saw at the

4 barracks, because it seems that every word counts here.

5 Q. Apart from the people being taken off the bus you mentioned and

6 then put on another bus, did you see anyone else being taken off?

7 A. I can't remember anything else. I know what I told you.

8 Q. Let us now move to Ovcara. You arrived there, and you told

9 Mr. Borovic what the position of the buses was. Apart from the buses

10 parked there the way you described, did you notice any other vehicles,

11 parked vehicles? Were there any other civilian vehicles? And if your

12 answer is yes, then I will have further questions.

13 A. Are we talking about Ovcara?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. I spoke about that yesterday. And this is what I can recall

16 sitting here today. I remember some military vehicles in front of the

17 hangar.

18 Q. Do you remember any civilian vehicles?

19 A. I no longer recall.

20 Q. I'm interested in the moment when you entered the Ovcara hangar in

21 which, according to your statement, you spent some three to four minutes?

22 A. I believe so.

23 Q. We also heard what you saw there. Could you please describe for

24 us the situation in the hangar, what happened to those people who were

25 taken off the buses and put into the hangar? Were they seated, were they

Page 6465

1 standing, lying on the ground?

2 A. They were placed against the wall with their arms and legs spread

3 apart.

4 Q. Did you notice that perhaps there was some sort of a separation

5 line between the people in -- or among the people in the hangar? Was

6 there any sort of rope or anything else?

7 A. What do you mean a separation line?

8 Q. A separation line inside the hangar. For example, that some

9 people were divided in one part of the hangar and the others in the other

10 part and separated by a rope.

11 A. I don't recall anything of that nature.

12 Q. When you were taken out of the hangar, as you described, having

13 spent some time at the place you marked in answering to Mr. Borovic's

14 questions, I wanted to know the following: The six men who were there

15 with you, had they been there before you came, or did they come after you?

16 A. I don't remember whether all of them had already been outside, but

17 some of them were. I can't remember whether I was the last one to arrive

18 or the one before last.

19 Q. So you spent an hour and a half, up to two hours there?

20 A. Yes, maybe even two hours.

21 Q. Did you communicate amongst yourselves?

22 A. Yes. We could.

23 Q. In talking to those people, did you hear of any people who were

24 deserters from the JNA?

25 A. This is the first time I hear of it.

Page 6466

1 Q. Did you see any JNA officer take out any of the prisoners from the

2 hangar? We heard who took you out of the hangar, but apart from that, was

3 there anything else, apart --

4 A. There may have been such instances, but I don't remember.

5 Q. As regards the bus when you were on it, did you hear of any people

6 on your bus who deserted from the JNA?

7 A. I don't remember that, because I probably didn't find that

8 important at the time.

9 Q. Mr. Karlovic, in answering to one of Mr. Domazet's questions --

10 question, you said that a part of your statement pertains to your

11 impressions and what you thought you may have seen, particularly with a

12 view of the time that elapsed. You explained the uniforms and your

13 conclusions as to who could have been from what group, et cetera. You

14 also said that you knew something about the existence of the Vukovar TO.

15 A. Yes. I knew what I was able to conclude in terms of who belonged

16 to what group.

17 Q. Could you explain the uniforms and insignia of the Vukovar TO?

18 A. I can't say anything more than I already did. I can repeat if you

19 want me to.

20 Q. No, that won't be necessary. I just hoped you could explain it in

21 more detail.

22 As you said, there were all types of uniforms. Parts of uniforms

23 were mixed as well. Would you allow for a possibility that your opinion

24 as to who belonged to what group may be wrong?

25 A. If you are asking me about a possibility of me being wrong, yes,

Page 6467

1 of course I may be.

2 Q. Yes, particularly having in mind the time that passed and the

3 state of stress that you were under at the time, it could have affected

4 your memory?

5 A. Yes, I guess so.

6 Q. You have said that the barracks commander came to Velepromet and

7 that he took you away in his Opel Omega car. Did you have any

8 conversation with him whilst driving in his car? Were you able to explain

9 anything to him, explain your situation? Because as far as I understood,

10 he didn't put you on the bus precisely because of your situation and the

11 condition you were in.

12 A. I remember having spoken to a soldier who was a part of the

13 security detail of the aforementioned officer, and as far as I recall, I

14 did not speak with the commander. I did talk to the soldier who was

15 seated at the back together with me.

16 Q. What date was that?

17 A. It was supposed to be the 21st of November.

18 Q. You said that you noticed a small clock in the car?

19 A. Yes. I remember that clock clearly that was inside the Opel

20 Omega.

21 Q. So can you tell us what the time was?

22 A. 20 minutes to midnight. Perhaps it's strange and silly, but --

23 Q. No, no, no, it's not that at all. After that you spent the night

24 at the Vukovar barracks, and then you were transferred by the articulated

25 bus to Sremska Mitrovica where you provided some eight to 10 statements?

Page 6468

1 A. Well, you don't have to take it exactly like that.

2 Q. You were questioned several times. What I would like to know is

3 whether you wrote a statement out by hand and, if you did, how many times

4 did you do that?

5 A. Yes, we all wrote out statements, but I don't remember. I think

6 that I wrote out a statement at least twice, but I'm not sure.

7 Q. While you were in Sremska Mitrovica, were you visited by a

8 representative of the International Red Cross?

9 A. Yes. I was registered some two months later, because for a while

10 I was concealed from the International Red Cross at the Sremska Mitrovica

11 camp.

12 Q. Did you write, fill in or in any way communicate with

13 representatives of the Red Cross?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you fill in a questionnaire?

16 A. On the 16th of January was the first time that I was registered by

17 the Red Cross, if I can recall.

18 Q. This questionnaire, did you fill it in or did someone else fill it

19 in?

20 A. I think that I did.

21 Q. Do you recall the kind of information that it contained? What did

22 you need to enter into the questionnaire?

23 A. Name, first name, last name, name of -- father's name, perhaps

24 something else, but I don't remember.

25 Q. Mr. Karlovic, I heard here today that you are retired with

Page 6469

1 disability?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I'm interested in something else. Were you continuously in the

4 army until 2002?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what is the reason why you retired with disability, the reason

7 why you retired. You state as the reason you retired as illness. Can you

8 tell us what it is?

9 A. Do I have to speak about my illness before this Trial Chamber?

10 Q. I'm not going to insist on that.

11 A. I do reserve the right not to talk about my illness. I can, I

12 mean ...

13 Q. Mr. Karlovic, you have said that the person who saved your life at

14 Ovcara, in a way, that you never actually sought that person ever?

15 A. No, I did not.

16 Q. Did you ever make inquiries about him using the nickname that he

17 told you?

18 A. I didn't really make inquiries. I didn't try to contact anyone in

19 Serbia who would be able to help me to reach this Stuka, whose first name

20 was Ilija.

21 Q. I heard today that you had information about Milojevic, Kinez,

22 that he was -- proceedings were being conducted in his -- in Croatia for

23 crimes that he committed?

24 A. Yes. I seem to remember something like that in the press about

25 Predrag Milojevic, Kinez.

Page 6470

1 Q. Did you try to find out in any other way, other than through the

2 newspaper, whether it was the same Kinez? Did you try to go through any

3 security services of the Republic of Croatia or some other organs? Did

4 you try to gather information about that?

5 A. I'm going to answer that. Earlier I said that I didn't really pay

6 attention to that, because I didn't believe that it was that same person,

7 because of the way he acted towards me.

8 Q. When you were talking about Stuka -- actually, when you talked

9 with Stuka at Ovcara, did you exchange particulars or anything?

10 A. As far as I can remember, no.

11 Q. Let me ask you this: Can you explain to me how was it that you

12 were proposed as a witness before the tribunal in Belgrade or the court in

13 Belgrade? How did the defence counsel get to you? How did they get in

14 touch for you?

15 A. Later I found out they were looking for me for a long time, but

16 since I was building a house, I was registered at one address, lived at

17 another, and I was making my house or building my house at some third

18 location, I don't know how, probably through the Croatian justice

19 ministry, they managed to get my new address. And the defence lawyer

20 managed to do that after I had registered at the address where I was

21 building my house. So the defence counsel of Marko Ljuboja, Mare, reached

22 me, and he called me and asked me if I was willing to testify.

23 Q. I understand all of that. What I'm interested in is how did they

24 know your first and last name? How did they know how to look for?

25 A. I don't know either, but I can tell you what I learned later.

Page 6471

1 There were other witnesses and somebody mentioned me by name at the trial

2 and they described my case. So that is probably how Mare himself, and

3 Kinez, during the trial, concluded that it could probably be me. And that

4 is why their defence counsel got in touch with me. They weren't sure it

5 was me at first. They spoke with me first.

6 Q. Mr. Karlovic, one of my first questions was that you never saw

7 Mr. Sljivancanin live other than on the 20th in the morning at --

8 between 9.00 and 11.00 that morning. You said that after your release, I

9 think that was on the 22nd of May, if I'm not mistaken. You said that

10 later you saw him frequently on Croatian television?

11 A. Well, at least once a year.

12 Q. What I would like to know is: What were these programmes where

13 you saw Mr. Sljivancanin?

14 A. I can tell you that Mr. Sljivancanin was shown most often as he

15 was arguing from that gentleman from the European Union or commission or

16 community or whatever.

17 Q. What was the context in which this was shown or broadcast? Can

18 you tell me whether it was in a positive or a negative context?

19 A. Well, what else could I say other than it was in a negative

20 context.

21 Q. Did this perhaps help to form a kind of public opinion or attitude

22 towards Mr. Sljivancanin, as well as yours?

23 A. Well, nobody will ever influence my attitude or position.

24 Q. Well, I'm not thinking of you specifically. I mean, but you don't

25 live all by yourself. You live in a specific context?

Page 6472

1 A. I don't know how else to answer this question. Mr. Sljivancanin

2 was not a positive figure in Croatia. And I told you about my position.

3 The only thing that I want is the truth. I don't want any innocent Serbs

4 being put into prison.

5 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very much.

6 I have no further questions for this witness.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Bulatovic.

8 Mr. Smith.

9 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, probably something you don't want to

10 hear. I have approximately 10 minutes, I would say, of re-examination. I

11 would try and be as fast as I can and --

12 JUDGE PARKER: Press on, Mr. Smith.

13 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

14 Re-examination by Mr. Smith:

15 Q. Witness, I would just like to make a couple of clarifications

16 after your cross-examination. It was put to you by my learned friend,

17 Mr. Domazet, that the first time that you mentioned that JNA soldiers were

18 involved in the gauntlet at Ovcara was when you testified yesterday.

19 I would just now like to read to you a passage from the Rule 61

20 hearing which was on the 27th of March, 1996 when you testified, and I

21 would like you to comment on that when I finish.

22 You were -- on page 306 you were discussing what had happened at

23 Ovcara, and a question was put to you by the prosecutor and the question

24 was: "Were you able to see what was happening to the people getting off

25 the buses in front of you?"

Page 6473

1 And the answer recorded from you was: "I saw that in front of the

2 hangar there was a file. There were ranks consisting of Chetniks and JNA

3 soldiers. They took away parts of the clothing, took away documents,

4 money from the people, any gold objects which people might have had. They

5 threw their clothes on to a pile, but especially what I noticed that as

6 people passed through these two ranks, they were beaten very, very badly."

7 Your explanation continues after that. But the question I'll put

8 to you is: Do you remember making that statement or a statement similar

9 to that when you first testified here at the Tribunal in 1996?

10 A. To this day, I continue to assert that this is what I stated.

11 That is my statement.

12 Q. Thank you. I will now provide you a copy of your statement that

13 you gave in 1995 with the assistance of the usher. And this is the

14 statement that you gave to the Prosecution investigators. In fact, I

15 believe you might have the English one in front of you; is that correct?

16 You have the B/C/S one?

17 A. No, no.

18 Q. It was put to you that there was some suggestion why you haven't

19 mentioned what occurred at Velepromet and the incident in relation to

20 Kinez and Mare, why that hadn't been mentioned before, and only first

21 discussed at the Belgrade trial. Can you read the last sentence of that

22 statement, please?

23 A. "If necessary, I am willing to provide another statement about

24 events that occurred in Velepromet." I will be sincere. I really cannot

25 recall saying that, but I must have said it because I did mention

Page 6474

1 Velepromet also the first time.

2 Q. And when you were questioned at the Tribunal in the two cases

3 previous to this one, at this Tribunal, were you ever asked questions by

4 the Prosecutor in detail as to what happened at Velepromet or what

5 happened when you were taken from there to the house that Kinez and Mare

6 rescued you from?

7 A. I cannot remember whether I provided a statement about events at

8 Velepromet before the Trial Chamber. I cannot remember.

9 Q. I would also like to put a couple of questions to you in relation

10 to how you got to Vukovar from Zagreb. It was put to you that you were

11 under no combat or no fire when you left from Bogdanovci to reach the

12 silos. Do you remember saying that in cross-examination?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. And you said in examination-in-chief that you got off the bus at

15 Bogdanovci and then went to the silos, and to get to the silos you went

16 through the cornfields. Do you remember stating that?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. Can you explain to the Court why the bus didn't take you directly

19 to the silos and you went on foot through the cornfields to get there?

20 A. For the simple reason that we would be noticed if we were using

21 any kind of vehicle. The town was blocked and all you could do is enter

22 the town in small groups on foot.

23 Q. And it was also -- I think a date may have been misrecorded in the

24 transcript, but if you can help us with it, and this is at page 48,

25 line 16. You mentioned in answer to a question by my learned friend,

Page 6475

1 Mr. Borovic, that you went to the Vukovar Hospital after leaving your

2 position, your combat position, which was about a hundred metres to 200

3 metres away from the hospital, and the date that was recorded in the

4 transcript was the 13th of September, 2002. Can you tell the Court what

5 date you left your position and went to the hospital?

6 A. I really don't know where we get the 13th of September. Abide by

7 what I said, that on the 17th I went to the hospital. I really don't know

8 why the 13th. Perhaps it was a mistake, or maybe I said it, but I'm also

9 wondering about the date, the 13th of September.

10 Q. You didn't arrive at -- in Vukovar until the 30th of September; is

11 that correct?

12 A. Yes. But I don't know how the 13th of September figures here. I

13 mean, if I heard it properly, but perhaps I can explain it again.

14 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

16 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to help my learned

17 friend and not confuse the witness.

18 This is the 13th of September when you gave your statement in the

19 Belgrade Ovcara case.

20 I think this will perhaps help to clarify the confusion.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic.

22 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

23 Q. And I think the date in the transcript as the 13th of September,

24 2002. But in any event, the date that you left that last combat position,

25 what date was that?

Page 6476

1 A. I left the combat position on the 17th. This was on the 17th of

2 November, 1991.

3 Q. And perhaps there is a little confusion in the transcript at

4 page 54, line 17. Can you tell the Court whether you saw this person

5 Stuka at the JNA barracks or not, or was the first time you saw him at

6 Ovcara?

7 A. I said that the first time I saw him was at Ovcara. I did not see

8 him at the barracks.

9 Q. Thank you. And the last question, you said that you sat behind

10 the driver on the bus when you left the hospital. Did you sit directly

11 behind the driver on the left-hand side, or did you sit on the right-hand

12 side; do you remember?

13 A. On the left side. Very close. I think I was sitting in row two,

14 if I remember correctly.

15 Q. And also you stated that when you looked at the photograph of the

16 JNA barracks only a few buildings on that were familiar to you; is that

17 correct?

18 A. I based it on the large hangar and also the actual compound. But

19 I -- I'm not quite sure that that was that particular place.

20 Q. And in relation to the parking of the buses, how confident are you

21 that the buses were parked in that location that you marked on the map?

22 You seemed a little uncertain in your answers.

23 A. I warned the Defence -- warned. I mean, I don't need to warn you,

24 but I did say myself that I cannot decidedly say that that was that

25 photograph.

Page 6477

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Smith.

4 Mr. Moore.

5 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I rise unusually to give some good news.

6 It's quite simply this: The witness Kypr has been here all day.

7 He's been speaking to an interpreter, and the document will be concluded

8 today by way of interpretation, and therefore it should be available

9 tomorrow evening.

10 Now, if we're not sitting obviously tomorrow and Thursday, we have

11 to make arrangements for my learned friends, but certainly it will be

12 available tomorrow afternoon, and so therefore I see no reason why we

13 can't start on Friday, as originally arranged.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that and for your efforts, Mr. Moore.

15 MR. MOORE: I have a second point, but I won't detain the Court

16 too long.

17 It really relates to a point for another witness, and I won't deal

18 with it now, but it's at page 6298, and it is the witness, I think it

19 was 009. It really relates to the cross-examination by my learned friend

20 Mr. Lukic putting the case to 009, and if I may just deal with lines 6

21 and 8, because clearly it's important that there is no ambiguity in

22 relation to this evidence. If I may put it in very general terms, what

23 was said by the witness was that he saw Major Sljivancanin at the JNA

24 barracks and he saw Major Sljivancanin at Ovcara.

25 Mr. Lukic put his case on page 6298, but -- and I don't criticise

Page 6478

1 in any way at all, he says: "That was why you gave the story you did.

2 And this was the background to which you placed my client somewhere where

3 he had never been; is that right?"

4 For my part, I wonder if my learned friend would be kind enough to

5 clarify whether he is suggesting that it is fabricated in relation to the

6 JNA barracks and Ovcara, or does this challenge merely relate to Ovcara?

7 The relevance is obvious for the trial as a whole.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Do you want to deal with that at this moment,

9 Mr. Lukic?

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I was going to

11 ask Your Honours. I can't open that page right now, and therefore I would

12 rather refrain from stating my position. With your permission, I will do

13 that on Friday, once I check the transcript.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

15 You have to wait, Mr. Moore.

16 Mr. Karlovic, you will be pleased to know that that is the end of

17 your evidence. There are no more questions for you. The Chamber would

18 like to thank you for your attendance here in The Hague, and for the

19 assistance that you have been able to give. You may, of course, now

20 return to your home and your personal affairs. Thank you very much.

21 For the reasons we have discussed, we will resume the hearing on

22 Friday morning at 9.00.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.08 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Friday, the 24th day of March,

25 2006, at 9.00 a.m.